Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1918

 1                           Thursday, 30 August 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Is there any problem with the technical facilities?

 8             If not, we'll proceed.

 9             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

11             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             There was one leftover of yesterday, I think.  Could the

14     Prosecution raise the matter it wishes to raise.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thanks.  And I would like to

16     raise it in private session, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

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11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

14             The curtains are pulled down to allow the witness to enter the

15     courtroom.  After that, they will be pulled up again.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness RM010.  Please be seated.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The curtains may be pulled up again.

21             May I remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

22     declaration you've given yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole

23     truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  RM010 [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 1922

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM010, you'll now be cross-examined by you,

 3     Mr. Stojanovic?  Or, Mr. Ivetic, or Mr. Lukic?  Who is -- you'll now be

 4     cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

 5     Mr. Mladic.

 6             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             There's just one thing I'd like to point out.  I believe that

 9     prior to my cross-examination the Prosecution wanted to use another two

10     video excerpts.  If that is not the case, I will now commence with my

11     cross-examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli is nodding that she doesn't need to do

13     that.

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No.  No, Your Honours.  Thanks.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

17     Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   My name is Miodrag Stojanovic, part of Mr. Mladic's Defence team.

22     And before I start with my cross-examination, I would like to tell you

23     how sorry I am for everything that you experienced, how sorry I am about

24     the consequences you suffered and about the tragic events that you

25     experienced.

Page 1923

 1             In your statement, you spoke in detail about the situation in

 2     your area prior to these tragic events; isn't that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

 5     would like to move into private session to put several questions to the

 6     witness.  This is out of an abundance of caution and then we can move

 7     back into open session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   When the war broke out in the territory of the former Yugoslavia,

19     the JNA called up military conscripts, isn't that correct, to report to

20     them in accordance with the war-time assignment?

21        A.   Yes, they called up some of them.

22        Q.   Most of the Bosniaks from your area who received the call-up

23     papers refused to respond to the mobilisation; isn't that correct?

24        A.   Yes.  They were going to the battle-field in Croatia, and these

25     people didn't want to go there.

Page 1925

 1        Q.   Did you personally receive call-up papers in any -- at any point

 2     in time?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   There was a police detachment, a police detachment in the

 5     vicinity of your village?

 6        A.   It was 5 kilometres from my home in Sanica.

 7        Q.   In terms of organisation, that police squad, in fact, was linked

 8     to the Kljuc SJB public security station; isn't that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   When the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, throughout

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, after several serious incidents in your

12     municipality, the police from the Kljuc SJB passed through your village

13     and appealed to everyone over a megaphone to surrender their weapons.

14             Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember that --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you switch off your microphone

17     after you asked the question.  And perhaps, as sometimes happens here,

18     your colleagues might assist you in remind.

19             Please proceed.

20             By the way, the last question was five or six questions in one.

21             Please proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was in the village when

23     they passed down the main road in a vehicle and they appealed to everyone

24     to bring all the weapons to the old metal works in Sanica.  They made

25     this appeal over a megaphone.

Page 1926

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  To the old railway

 2     station, not metal works.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   At the time you had two hunting rifles; isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 6        Q.   You also had a hand-made pistol, one that you, yourself, had

 7     made; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   You know that some of the inhabitants had, in the meantime,

10     obtained automatic weapons and other weapons?

11        A.   Yes.  Several automatic weapons had been obtained exclusively

12     from soldiers who went to the battle-field where there were Serbs.

13        Q.   Do you know someone called Amir Avdic?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Do you know whether he was in the military in any capacity at

16     that time?

17        A.   I do remember that he worked as a professor in the secondary

18     school in Kljuc.

19        Q.   In the request for weapons to be surrendered prior to that

20     request, in fact, there were serious incidents that I'm going to ask you

21     about now.  Do you know where the village of Ramici is on the

22     Kljuc-Sanski Most road is?

23        A.   It's 10 or 15 kilometres away from where I was located.  Yes, I

24     do know where it is.

25        Q.   On the 27th of May, 1992, at about 9.00, a -- Muslim formations

Page 1927

 1     erected an obstacle on the road.  They fired on a police patrol from an

 2     ambush and on that occasion the deputy commander of the police station in

 3     Kljuc was killed.  His name was Dusan Stojakovic.  Dusan Stojakovic.  And

 4     my question is whether you have heard about this incident?

 5        A.   Yes, I have heard about the incident.  I heard about it only

 6     several months later but not immediately at the time that it occurred.

 7        Q.   Could you tell the Court what it is you heard several months

 8     later?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know, not that much.  I heard that this occurred in

10     the Krasulje area that the police commander was killed in that area, but

11     the circumstances hadn't been clarified.  I was told about this by people

12     who lived there.  But on the 27th I knew nothing about it because on that

13     day we were surrendering weapons in the police station.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's unclear to the Chamber whether you're exploring

15     what the witness knew, apart from the relevance of that, the whole of the

16     village, or villages, may have known about it or whether what happened.

17     Because if the witness was not present and did not observe anything

18     himself, why would we ask this witness what happened rather than ask

19     another witness who knows more about it or consult documentary evidence

20     on the matter?

21             Apart from that, your previous questions were about a person the

22     Chamber has no idea, I think, about who it is, but now we know that he

23     was a professor, and we know his name.  What to do with that, for the

24     Chamber?

25             I mean, please try to focus your questions in such a way that we

Page 1928

 1     understand what you seek to establish, apart from that a person by name X

 2     was a professor at a school.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  We'll be

 5     using a document that forms the basis for this question or these

 6     questions.  I don't know how much the witness, in fact, knows, so advance

 7     on the basis of the questions [as interpreted] he provides.

 8             I will do my best.

 9        Q.   Sir, in relation to the events that you heard about, as you say,

10     I'd like to ask you the following:

11             According to the information we have, apart from the murder of

12     the deputy commander of the police station, Despot Zeljko and

13     Kecma, Milos, two policemen, were also killed.  Have you heard about

14     this?

15        A.   No, believe me, I haven't.  Something was said about that later,

16     but on the 27th of May when this happened, 15 kilometres away from where

17     I was, we were surrendering weapons in the police station in Sanica.  But

18     as I said I heard certain things later on about the event, but I don't

19     know who Kecma is, who that policeman is.  I don't know who this second,

20     third persons are.  I really know nothing about that.

21        Q.   You said, if I've understood you correctly, that you handed in

22     your weapons on that day?

23        A.   Well, I think I've been quite clear.  Since you, yourself,

24     mentioned the 27th, well, that was towards the end of May.  In my

25     statement I said that they arrived and passed through the village of

Page 1929

 1     Biljani which is about 15 or 20 kilometres from Kljuc, and they used a

 2     megaphone over which they ordered us to take all the weapons that were

 3     present in the village to the railway station, and we inhabitants

 4     complied with that request.

 5        Q.   On that occasion, did you hand in the hunting rifles and the

 6     pistol?

 7        A.   Yes, my younger brother did that.

 8        Q.   Why is it that you made this hand-made pistol?

 9        A.   Well, the reason, to be quite frank, is there was a neighbour of

10     mine who worked in the Sanica factory, and I'll be quite frank if I say

11     that a year earlier he had started making such pistols.  In fact, the

12     Serbs started making those pistols and showed him how to do it.  And then

13     he made such a pistol for himself, he showed it to me, and then we made a

14     pistol of that kind that could fire one bullet.  And, well, there are

15     quite a few reasons for doing that.  Since the local Serbs had already

16     established five or six check-points above us and we weren't armed, we

17     had also heard about the events in Croatia so we thought that in the case

18     of need it wouldn't be bad to have something of this sort on us.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'll be mentioning another name and return to the

20     name I've already mentioned, Amir Avdic and Gromilic, Aziz.

21             Does the name Aziz Gromilic mean anything to you?  What was he at

22     the time?

23        A.   I heard about Aziz Gromilic only after the war, and I met him

24     then.  Before that time I had never seen him and I had never heard of

25     that name.

Page 1930

 1        Q.   I asked you about these two names.  I asked you about Gromilic as

 2     well.  And I wanted to ask you what you knew about the things they were

 3     involved in at the time in 1992?

 4        A.   As I have said, the first time I heard about Aziz Gromilic was in

 5     1996.  I've never seen him or heard about him before.

 6             I had heard about Amir Avdic before, however, and I did know him

 7     personally.

 8        Q.   I will now put a specific question to you.

 9             According to the document that we have, Aziz Gromilic is a

10     retired officer of the federal police.  He was involved in organising the

11     ambush on the policemen about which I have asked you, and Mr. Avdic was

12     in charge of defence company in the village of Velagici in your area.

13             Have you heard anything about that and is this information

14     correct?

15        A.   I don't know anything about Aziz Gromilic, as I have said.  As

16     far as Amir is concerned, I had heard of him.  But I'm telling you that

17     in our village, nothing ever happened.  I heard about Amir that he went

18     to Bihac with a group of people.  Under what sort of circumstances and in

19     what manner, I really couldn't say, because at the time I couldn't even

20     go out.  I couldn't even cover 150 metres to reach the road that was in

21     front of my house, let alone go anywhere further than that.

22        Q.   Can we agree that there was a very important road passing through

23     your area which they used to call the Avnoj road; is this correct?

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 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to move to

 5     private session for a short period of time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

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25                           [Open session]

Page 1934

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 1D,

 4     65 ter 190.  And while we're waiting for the document to appear in

 5     e-court, I just want to say that this is an information about the work of

 6     the public security station in Kljuc for the period of July 1995

 7     [as interpreted], which is the time-period that we're dealing with.

 8             Can we look at page 6 of the English version and page 9 on the

 9     B/C/S version.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  1995, Mr. Stojanovic, is that the period covered by

11     this report or is it a -- the report which was produced later?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there's a

13     problem in the interpretation.  July 1992.  Or perhaps I made an error.

14     But it's July 1992.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This being clarified, please proceed.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Are we having a problem with the

18     e-court?  Oh.  Thank you.

19             Page 9 in the B/C/S version, please, so that the witness could

20     also follow.

21        Q.   Sir, can you look at this.

22        A.   Yes, I've already looked at it.

23        Q.   Can you look at page 9.  So this is, again, along the line of the

24     questions that I put to you earlier that refer to the event that you

25     talked about, that you have direct knowledge about.  Do you see that?

Page 1935

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you -- for us to look at the following page

 3     in the B/C/S and the English version.  We can look at them together and

 4     we can continue where we left off regarding the Avnoj road.

 5             Do you recall that in early 1992 the JNA was withdrawing from the

 6     area of Croatia along that road.  They were going back into

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

 8        A.   Yes, it's true.  I am aware that one of the units went to

 9     Laniste.  They were staying there.  It's an area or a -- a part which is

10     within the Kljuc municipality.

11        Q.   And do you know if there were any incidents while the army was

12     withdrawing and passing through the Kljuc municipality?  Were there any

13     incidents with the Bosniak population?

14        A.   No, I'm not aware of anything like that during those days, but

15     some 7 or 15 days later in mid-June, that's -- we heard from some

16     citizens who were going to Kljuc, so they brought back information saying

17     that in Pudin Han or just outside Kljuc there was some clashes and that

18     there were some casualties, some wounded and killed.  This is what I

19     heard, but I'm saying that this is what I heard from some women who were

20     going to Kljuc at that time.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 10 of the

22     B/C/S version and page 7 of the English version in e-court now, please.

23        Q.   The document that we see in front of us indicates -- regarding

24     the information about the security station in Kljuc.  It says, if we can

25     look at that together now, that on the 27th of May, 1992, at 14 --

Page 1936

 1     1400 hours?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean on the same day, that is, the 27th of May?

 3     Is that -- and you're referring us to paragraph 2?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, correct.

 5     We're moving on from the previous paragraph 1, where it says that that

 6     occurred on the 27th of May.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am just going to paraphrase it

 9     so that we don't waste too much time.

10        Q.   In this report it states that in the area that you were talking

11     about, the village of Pudin Han and Busija there was a column that was

12     ambushed.  The column was moving toward the Federal Republic of

13     Yugoslavia.  And at that time two soldiers were killed and a lorry

14     driver.  Six soldiers were seriously wounded and 29 were lightly wounded.

15     Another four soldiers died in the hospital later.

16             I'm asking you whether this part of the report corresponds to

17     what you heard some days after this incident?

18        A.   Yes, something like that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And then it goes on to say, according to the report,

20     because I wasn't there, that the action was organised and it was under

21     the command by the men about whom I asked you before - his name is

22     Amir Avdic - and also by a person called Nevzad Djeric, aka Kedjo.  This

23     second name, does it mean anything to you?

24        A.   I never heard of this first man until the end of the war.  I

25     heard then that this man was later in Bihac and then later joined

Page 1937

 1     Fikret's army, as we referred to it.  But, I mean, it doesn't really

 2     matter.

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I want pursue this any further.  I just want to

 9     cover one more incident.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 11 in the

11     B/C/S of the same document, and can we look at the following page --

12     actually, we will stay on the same page of the English version.

13        Q.   I'm not going be asking you any more questions about these

14     incidents, except for this one which I think occurred close to where you

15     lived?

16             Can you please look at what it says here.  On the 25th of May in

17     the village of Crljeni, seven soldiers were captured who were

18     reconnoitring the terrain.  At any point did you know anything about

19     this?  You can answer with a yes or a no.

20        A.   No, no.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going to be using this

23     anymore.  I'm not going to be referring to any other incidents.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, when you refer to pages in the

25     B/C/S, you apparently refer to the hard copy page numbering.  In English,

Page 1938

 1     you are referring to the e-court numbering.  I think the standard is that

 2     you should exclusively refer to e-court page numbers.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we perhaps see page 1 of the document in

 4     both versions to familiarise us with the kind of document we see.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Your Honour.  I did

 6     respect your guidance, and I was referring to the e-court pages, and

 7     these are the B/C/S version pages 9 and 10.  And I referred to the

 8     English page numbers quite correctly, I think.

 9             Can we now look at page 1 of both the B/C/S and the English

10     versions from which we can see --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's on the screen, and I'm fine with that.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             If you permit, Your Honours, I would like to tender this

14     document.  It would be 1D00190.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, I do have an objection.

19             It is, at least in the English version, a 13-long page document,

20     and I don't think that simply on the basis of the little paragraph that

21     the witness said was corresponding to what he heard my learned colleague

22     established sufficient basis for the whole document to be tendered.

23             So I would have an objection to that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do you need the whole of the

25     document or can you do with the relevant pages, well, let's say, the

Page 1939

 1     cover page indicating what the document is, and then the pages you used?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I propose that we admit the

 3     whole document because we will be referring to it later with other

 4     witnesses as well, so perhaps that would be my answer to that question.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Maybe we can mark it for identification.  And when

 6     the -- the Defence will be able to provide more evidence or discuss it

 7     with other witnesses, then ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber will consider the

10     admission into evidence of this document when it is put to witnesses who

11     can say something about the document.

12             Whatever the witness testified is what you asked him --

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber will consider the

15     admission into evidence of this document.  When it is put to witnesses

16     you can say something about the document.  Whatever the witness testified

17     is what you asked him.  It will be marked for identification, and we'll

18     further discuss the objection raised by Ms. D'Ascoli.

19             Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D00190 becomes Exhibit D49 [sic],

21     MFI'd, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that Mr. Mladic's microphone is switched

23     on.  If he wants to consult with counsel, he has an opportunity to do so.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  With your

25     leave, if you allow me to do that, the General has asked to speak to me.

Page 1940

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please consult.  And please take care that he speaks

 2     softly.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honours, if

 6     this took a while.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber appreciates the way it was done.  That

 8     is, that Mr. Mladic indicates that he wants to consult with counsel and

 9     that the level of the volume of your voices was such that it's -- it's in

10     line with what we expect you to you do.

11             The Chamber expresses its appreciation for that.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, once

14     again, and I would kindly ask that we move into private session very

15     briefly.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.  And we have another

17     five minutes before the break, Mr. Stojanovic.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1941











11 Page 1941-1942 redacted. Private session.















Page 1943

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             Mr. Stojanovic, before we take the break, you've used now

19     approximately one hour.  How much more would you need?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I believe that

21     it's going to go on for another 15 minutes, as I originally indicated.

22     Up to 15 minutes, that is.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  Because we have to arrange for

24     the next witness.

25             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  Curtains

Page 1944

 1     down first.  We'll take a break of 20 minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  May the witness be escorted into the courtroom; and,

 7     for that purpose, the curtains should be down.

 8             Mr. Groome.

 9             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could take this opportunity to

10     make use of this time.

11             The Prosecution at this time would tender 65 ter 28329.

12     Your Honours, that is a map book for the municipalities.  Ms. Stewart

13     will distribute that to the Chamber at this point in time.  The Defence

14     were provided copies of this prior to the summer recess, and hopefully

15     they have their position.  And the Prosecution would tender them subject

16     to the same limitations that P3 was admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Curtains can be up again.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23             We were in private session before we adjourned, so I wanted to

24     ask that we continue with private session because I'd like to mention

25     some names.

Page 1945

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Did we end in private session,

 2     Madam Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.  We ended in open

 4     session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have to turn into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1946











11 Page 1946 redacted. Private session.















Page 1947

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 1948

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   So after these tragic events, you hid in and around the woods

 5     near your village; is that -- for about two months; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Until September, say, the

 7     10th of September, 1992.

 8        Q.   You then decided to move to the territory that was under the

 9     control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   There was this organised convoy from Kljuc, and that's how you

12     went to Travnik via Vlasic.  Am I right?

13        A.   Yes, I think it was on the 19th of September.

14        Q.   Upon your arrival in Travnik, you told the authorities about

15     everything that you experienced.

16        A.   Not immediately.  After a while, yes.

17        Q.   If I tell you that you gave a statement in 1993 and in 1994 to

18     the public security centre, would that be right?

19        A.   Yes, sort of.

20        Q.   Did you say the same things that you have said today in those

21     statements?

22        A.   On the whole.  Sometimes I say a little more, sometimes a little

23     less, since we can't always follow the same order.

24        Q.   You spoke about this in a number of cases before the ICTY, in

25     The Hague; isn't that correct?

Page 1949

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   After you went to the territory under the control of the ABiH,

 3     did you receive call-up papers?

 4        A.   No, I didn't.

 5        Q.   Up -- until the end of the war, did you spend the time up until

 6     the end of the war in Travnik?

 7        A.   Yes.  When we arrived Travnik, we went to the barracks of the

 8     former JNA.  There was a unit there, and since we were received there, I

 9     stayed in Travnik.

10        Q.   Did they ask you to join the ABiH?

11        A.   No, they didn't.  But since there were certain individuals in

12     Travnik whom I already knew, and since there was nowhere else for me to

13     go, I did report to a unit.

14        Q.   And did you remain in that unit until the end of the war in 1995?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Were you issued any weapons?

17        A.   Well, practically none.

18        Q.   I'm asking you about this because of the answer -- answers you

19     provided and because of the consequences you suffered, that you have

20     mentioned, and also the fear that you feel.

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   I'll conclude with my question.  Do you personally have any

23     direct or indirect knowledge that in the tragic events of the

24     10th of July, the command in Banja Luka was provided with information

25     about these events?

Page 1950

 1             Do you know whether that was the case?

 2        A.   No, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  I don't have any further questions.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no further questions.

 8             Ms. D'Ascoli, any need to re-examine the witness?

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Just a few questions, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11                           Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

12        Q.   Sir, today you were asked - and this is between pages 8 and 10 of

13     today's transcript - you were asked about the weapons possessed by you.

14     You said you had two hunting rifles and one hand-made pistol.  And you

15     said that:

16             "On the 27th of May, we were surrendering weapons in the police

17     station."

18             Can you tell us if the whole population of your village was

19     ordered to do so, was ordered to surrender weapons?

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted).  All the local inhabitants surrendered

23     their weapons, and I can claim with full responsibility on the four

24     following occasions when the village was being cleansed not a single

25     weapon, not a single bullet was found there in our village.

Page 1951

 1        Q.   Did both Serbs and --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, if the witness testified that - and

 3     that's what he said - passed through -- appeal to everyone over a

 4     megaphone, would that not address all the people?  I mean, what's the use

 5     of asking about whether others -- if I use a megaphone isn't that -- if

 6     you carefully listen to that answer that your question have been totally

 7     superfluous.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Sir, I was interested in which was the ethnicity of the part of

11     the population who was disarmed, whether it was both Serbs and Muslims

12     who surrendered their weapons on the 27th of May?

13        A.   Only Muslims surrendered their weapons.  This appeal did not

14     apply to the Serbs.

15        Q.   When you said that the police from Kljuc passed through the

16     village and ordered to surrender the weapons, did also -- did the police

17     also give any warning to the population what would happen if they didn't

18     surrender weapons?

19        A.   Yes.  We were told that if the weapons were not surrendered,

20     given that they had already said that there were lists of weapons - they

21     had said this over the megaphone - they said if we didn't surrender the

22     weapon, they would first shell the villages and then cleanse them one by

23     one.

24        Q.   And what, if anything, did you hear about the arming of the local

25     population?

Page 1952

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does this arise from --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this arise from cross-examination?

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Well, they were discussing about -- the witness

 4     just discussed about the fact that only the Muslim population surrender

 5     the weapons.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But arming other parts of the population is

 7     not the same as disarming a part of the population.

 8             If you would say, Was it only the Muslims who had to surrender

 9     their weapons, that is still within the context; however, if you say,

10     Were others armed?  That is it a different chapter, I would say.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I will rephrase the question.

13        Q.   Were others armed in your village?

14        A.   Yes.  Serbian civilians, civilians of Serbian ethnicity were

15     armed at the beginning of 1992, and this was done on several occasions.

16     I can confirm that I personally saw a helicopter landing in the Gologlava

17     hamlet on two occasions.  I had a friend up there who later explained the

18     situation to us in a conversation.  He said we have received weapons over

19     the last few days.  All of us have been issued with weapons.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. D'Ascoli, it seems that you did not understand

21     my guidance and ruling on the matter.  Arming is not the same as

22     disarming.  Disarming was covered in cross-examination; arming was not

23     touched upon, as far as I know.  But I may have missed it.  But arming of

24     other parts of the population was not part of the cross-examination.

25             Please proceed.

Page 1953

 1             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay, Your Honours.  [Microphone not activated]

 2             That would be it.  I don't have further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

 4             The re-examination has triggered, as far as I -- looking at

 5     Mr. Stojanovic, has not triggered any need for further questions.

 6             Witness RM010, this means that this concludes your evidence in

 7     this case.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 8     for answering the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 9     the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Once the curtains are down, the witness can be

12     escorted out of the courtroom.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the curtains be raised again.

16             Mr. Groome, the next witness the Prosecution will call will be

17     RM018.  I take we'll hear his evidence in closed session and with

18     pseudonym.  But before proceeding, I do understand that the Prosecution

19     wanted to raise a matter in relation to the scheduling of witnesses.

20             You have an opportunity to do that now.

21             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             If I could take this opportunity to introduce the Chamber to

23     Arthur Traldi, who will be taking the next witness, Your Honour.

24             Your Honours, yesterday --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome into court, Mr. Traldi.

Page 1954

 1             MR. TRALDI:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, yesterday I sent an e-mail to Chambers

 3     and the Defence informing everyone that the witnesses this week had

 4     progressed more quickly than the Prosecution anticipated and that the

 5     Prosecution was endeavouring to secure the attendance of additional

 6     witnesses to ensure that hearing time for the week was filled.

 7     Unfortunately, I must report that for reasons related to the specific

 8     situation of the witnesses we sought to advance we are unable to secure

 9     additional witnesses for the week.  Therefore, the witnesses remaining

10     for the week are RM018 and RM053.  By our current estimate, we will

11     finish with approximately one hour of unused hearing time.  I would like

12     to make a proposal which I think will ensure full and efficient use of

13     scheduled hearing, reduce costs associated with bringing witnesses to

14     The Hague and reduce the amount of inconvenience to witnesses.  My

15     proposal as is follows:

16             The Trial Chamber has scheduled hearings in this case which

17     generally form a pattern of three weeks of hearings five days a week,

18     followed by a one-week recess.  The Prosecution is requesting that on the

19     Thursday or Friday of the last week in each cycle, that the Chamber

20     conduct a short 10 to 15 minute administrative hearing during which there

21     would be a discussion regarding the scheduling of witnesses for the next

22     cycle of hearings.  The suggested agenda of these hearing or this

23     administrative hearing would include submissions by the Prosecution and

24     the Defence on the length of time envisaged for the examination of the

25     witnesses appearing during the upcoming cycle.

Page 1955

 1             Knowing at least an estimate of the time a cross-examination is

 2     likely to take will facilitate a more precise and convenient scheduling

 3     of witnesses, as well as reduce the costs associated with having

 4     witnesses in The Hague longer than necessary.

 5             In addition to this, such hearing might also be an appropriate

 6     venue to raise any issues related to those upcoming witnesses,

 7     particularly issues which, once raised, might be resolved during the

 8     week-long adjournment before that next cycle started.

 9             Finally, such a hearing might also be an opportunity to deal with

10     any residual matters from the preceding three weeks of evidence.

11             The Prosecution submits that this use of time would contribute to

12     a more efficient trial process, and if adopted by the Trial Chamber, the

13     Prosecution would undertake to provide a schedule of the upcoming

14     witnesses and other information which could form the basis of the

15     discussion a few days prior to such hearing.

16             Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

18             Mr. Lukic, would you want to respond right away, or would you

19     like to think about it first before you address the Chamber on the

20     matter?

21             MR. LUKIC:  If we can get some time, yes, we would like to

22     address it later.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps.  And if there are any outstanding

24     issues which you could resolve with Mr. Groome, then, of course, it would

25     assist the Chamber if they are resolved already before we further hear

Page 1956

 1     your submissions on the matter.

 2             At the same time, I express on behalf of the Chamber, for both

 3     parties, that it seems that a serious endeavour is made to -- to make the

 4     proceedings as efficient as possible, and that is appreciated.

 5             Then, before we move to the next witness, there's one issue I'd

 6     like to briefly raise, Mr. Groome.

 7             I think in our decision -- no.  First, a small correction.  The

 8     document which was MFI'd before the break, the transcript says that it

 9     was D49, but I leave it there who made the mistake.  But the document

10     MFI'd before the break was D42.

11             Then in relation to Witness Doyle, the Prosecution failed to

12     update the Chamber in relation to the overlaps of his testimony with

13     adjudicated facts which we ordered in our decision on the 92 ter motion.

14             First of all, the Chamber -- the OTP is invited to -- to redress

15     that.

16             Second, the Chamber reminds the Prosecution that, in relation to

17     Witness RM018 that a similar instruction to update a request on any

18     overlaps is found in paragraph 6 of our decision, and the Chamber would

19     like -- prefer not to see for a second time that the Prosecution would

20     fail to follow that instruction.

21             MR. GROOME:  I apologise for that, Your Honour, and I will have

22     it remedied before the end of the week.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think we are there to hear the testimony of

24     the next witness.  The next witness will testify in closed session and

25     under pseudonym.

Page 1957

 1             Is the Prosecution ready to call Witness RM018?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I have two preliminary matters to

 3     address, the adjudicated facts and the exhibits to be used with the

 4     witness, and --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could that be done in open session or should

 6     that be done in closed session as well?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Closed session, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into closed session.

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1958











11 Pages 1958-1997 redacted. Closed session.















Page 1998

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             The Chamber will now deliver its decision in relation to four

Page 1999

 1     Rule 92 ter motions filed by the Prosecution concerning Witnesses RM039,

 2     RM083, RM032, and RM003.

 3             The motion were filed on the 9th of May, 1st of August, and the

 4     6th of August, 2012.  The Defence responded on the 24th of May, the

 5     15th of August, and the 21st of August, 2012.  In relation to

 6     Witness RM039, the Prosecution replied on the 31st of May, and in

 7     relation to Witness RM083, the Prosecution requested leave to reply on

 8     the 22nd of August, 2012, which is hereby granted.

 9             The Prosecution tenders the following material:  For Witnesses

10     RM032 and RM039, one statement each; for Witness RM083, a "proffer of

11     testimony" with a supplement; and for Witness RM003, one statement and

12     five associated documents.

13             As set out in previous decisions, the Chamber will defer its

14     decision on admission of evidence tendered under Rule 92 ter of the Rules

15     until all of the Rule's requirements are met.  The Chamber will

16     nevertheless already inform the parties of its rulings in relation to

17     some of the motions' aspects and the objections raised by the Defence.

18             In relation to Witness RM039, the Prosecution requests 45 minutes

19     for its examination-in-chief.  This estimate was already indicated in the

20     Prosecution's witness list, which the Chamber accepted during the

21     pre-trial conference.  I refer to transcript page 314.  Accordingly, this

22     request is moot.

23             In relation to Witnesses RM083 and RM003, the Prosecution

24     indicated its intention to refrain from redacting portions of the

25     statements despite overlapping adjudicated facts so as to provide a

Page 2000

 1     coherent narrative to the Chamber.

 2             The Prosecution is instructed to follow the Chamber's guidance on

 3     this point set out in its decision of the 16th of August, 2012,

 4     concerning Witness Doyle.  In relation to Witness RM003, the Prosecution

 5     requests an additional hour for its examination-in-chief.  Apart from

 6     stating that the witness will provide detailed evidence on several

 7     issues, the Prosecution has not demonstrated why it should be granted

 8     additional time.  Nonetheless, the Chamber will see how the

 9     examination-in-chief develops and then consider whether any additional

10     time is warranted.

11             The Defence raises several objections to the motions.

12             First, that some witnesses provide inappropriate expert opinions.

13             Secondly, that the testimony of one witness is so significant

14     that it should be heard viva voce.

15             Thirdly, it requests that the Prosecution should be barred from

16     eliciting evidence not included in the Rule 65 ter summary for a witness.

17             Fourthly, that the proffer of testimony tendered for

18     Witness RM083 does not qualify as a tradition ICTY statement.

19             Fifthly, that portions of the witness's statements contain vague,

20     hearsay, or irrelevant evidence which should be stricken.

21             Lastly, the Defence requests increased time for cross-examination

22     for some of the witnesses.

23             The first two objections have been addressed by the Chamber and

24     the Defence is referred to previous decisions, in particular, the

25     Chamber's decision in relation to Witness Harland of the

Page 2001

 1     3rd of July, 2012.  These objections are therefore denied.

 2             In relation to the Defence request for additional

 3     cross-examination time, the Chamber also refers to its prior discussion

 4     of this issue, in particular, in the above-mentioned decision of July the

 5     3rd, 2012.

 6             The Chamber has addressed the issue raised in the third objection

 7     in an oral decision of the 24th of August, 2012, dealing with amendments

 8     to Rule 65 ter summaries.

 9             In relation to the fourth objection, the Chamber notes that the

10     proffer of testimony is not in the traditional format of an ICTY

11     statement.  However, the witness affirmed the proffer of testimony's

12     content in his supplemental statement.  The difference in the proffer of

13     testimony and a regular witness statement is therefore only in the format

14     and not in the substance.  In addition, the Chamber considers that any

15     doubts in relation to the proffer's probative value could be addressed

16     through the attestation of the witness and in the examination of him in

17     court.

18             As such, the Chamber allows the Prosecution to tender the proffer

19     of testimony, provided that the Prosecution provides information on who

20     authored this document and when and where the interview with the witness,

21     which forms the basis for the proffer, was conducted.

22             In relation to the fifth objection, the Chamber considers that it

23     is most appropriate to allow the parties to clarify any unclear, vague,

24     or hearsay portions of a statement during the testimony of the witnesses.

25     In the absence of any clarification, the Chamber may attach less weight,

Page 2002

 1     if any, to such portions.  The fifth objection is denied.

 2             In relation to Witness RM003, the Chamber noticed that there was

 3     some overlap between the tendered statement and one of the associated

 4     exhibits; a statement given to local authorities.  The Chamber requests

 5     the Prosecution to consider whether the tendering of both statements is

 6     necessary for the appreciation of the witness's evidence.

 7             Lastly, the Chamber notes that the evidence of Witness RM039

 8     overlaps with certain adjudicated facts of which it has taken judicial

 9     notice.  The Prosecution is therefore instructed to review this and make

10     the necessary redactions to the proffered evidence, to the extent that

11     the relevant portions do not add anything to the adjudicated facts.

12             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

13             Mr. Lukic, one very short question:  I earlier said if you want

14     to add anything to the -- the court binder, do you intend to add anything

15     or you say whatever has been said is [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And nothing there to be expected any further to

18     that.

19             MR. LUKIC:  No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much for that.

21             Then we adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, the

22     31st of August, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

23             We stand adjourned.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of August,

Page 2003

 1                           2012, at 9.30 a.m.