Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2082

 1                           Monday, 3 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic is not present in the

12     courtroom.  The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic refused to enter

13     voluntarily the courtroom, after he insisted on his blood pressure to be

14     taken by a nurse or a doctor instead of by security.

15             If the accused does not wish to enter the courtroom, then the

16     Chamber understands this as a waiver of his right to be present and will

17     not force him into the courtroom.

18             This is the information the Chamber received, Mr. Lukic, but

19     perhaps you'd like to make any submission on that matter.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I'm not an expert, so I don't know what

21     the health status of Mr. Mladic is this morning, and if he refuses to

22     come in without having his blood pressure measured, I understand that he

23     has necessity to do so, and also he informed us that he didn't -- didn't

24     give a waiver for this proceeding to continue without him, and he

25     instructed us just to inform you that we are not allowed to be present in

Page 2083

 1     this courtroom without him too.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether you're allowed or not you may have a

 3     duty to be present, but let's not discuss that at this moment.

 4             You say you are not an expert so you do not know about the health

 5     status --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and if he refuses to come in without having his

 8     blood pressure measure.  There's an offer to measure his blood pressure

 9     by those qualified to do so and that is security under the present

10     circumstances.  And let me inform you of the following, Mr. Lukic.

11             The Chamber has been informed, but we'll ask for a detailed

12     report, if necessary, that Mr. Mladic has made it a routine to ask his

13     blood pressure to be measured and that, in view of his condition, that

14     nothing beyond what is normal for him was ever established during all

15     those days where he insisted, without a medical reason, that his blood

16     pressure should be measured.

17             The Registry has decided that the security is trained and

18     qualified to measure the blood pressure, and in view of the past, that

19     nothing beyond the normal was ever established, the Registry has asked

20     security to measure the blood pressure, and if anything beyond the normal

21     would be established, that further action would be taken.

22             So your presentation that Mr. Mladic refuses to come into court

23     without having his blood pressure measured, in the present circumstances

24     means that he refuses to have his blood pressure measured by persons

25     qualified to do so after a longer history of blood pressure being

Page 2084

 1     measured as a routine matter -- as a routine matter where never a medical

 2     reason apparently existed.  That is the present situation.  If you would

 3     like to make further submissions.  Whether Mr. Mladic waives his right or

 4     not, if he does not expressly waive it, then, of course, the Chamber has

 5     to consider, whether, by his behaviour, Mr. Mladic implicitly waives his

 6     right to follow the proceedings.

 7             That's as matters stand, as far as the Chamber is concerned at

 8     this moment.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

11             MR. LUKIC:  With all due respect, I have to differ.  Every time

12     the blood pressure is measured, it is out of the limits Mr. Mladic is

13     supposed to have it.  He is -- he should not have -- he shall not have

14     blood pressure higher than 146 because of three strokes he suffered

15     previously.  Every time it was higher.  It was even 190 sometimes.  And

16     for him, and he would even shortly lose his conscious at those moments,

17     it's a very dangerous situation for a man of his health.

18             So we had a situations here when he to be brought out, and in

19     those situations, his condition was very critical, I have to inform you.

20     I don't know what kind of information Your Honours have, but I have to

21     tell you this.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that what was measured

23     before he entered court was always communicated with the medical staff of

24     the UNDU and never caused any reason to specifically further examine the

25     accused or to raise any alarm.  If you think that there's something wrong

Page 2085

 1     with that, then you should have taken action so that the accused, you

 2     should make a submission to the Registry explaining why you think that

 3     further medical examinations would be needed.

 4             I do understand, but, again, we should wait for a more -- for a

 5     broader report by the Registry, I do understand that the blood pressure

 6     of Mr. Mladic is somewhat elevated and that is established in the past,

 7     and that this is monitored quite precisely.

 8             Any further submissions?

 9             Yes, before I give an opportunity to Mr. Groome.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Me first or Mr. Groome first?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's first hear Mr. Groome and then.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, two points.  If the Chamber may have

14     already established whether Mr. Mladic has been informed that the

15     security are properly trained to do this so that it's not a

16     misunderstanding.  If he has not been -- if it's not been established

17     that he's been informed, perhaps Mr. Lukic should be directed to inform

18     him of that.  And secondly, Your Honour, if it's not the practice to

19     record the blood pressure that security is taking, which I imagine it

20     probably is, but if it's not, I would ask the Chamber to consider

21     directing the security to record the blood pressure when they do that so

22     that it would be available for review by the Chamber if necessary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Just in brief response, the Chamber has understood

24     that the Registry would, as being responsible for the medical care of our

25     detained accused, that the Registry would have communicated with

Page 2086

 1     Mr. Mladic about the qualifications and the training of security for

 2     taking blood pressure.  That's one.

 3             Second, I do understand that whatever was measured over the last

 4     weeks, and I do understand that this was supposed to be continued, that,

 5     always, any measurement, would be relayed to the medical staff of the

 6     United Nations Detention Unit.

 7             Mr. Lukic, any further submissions?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to tell you that we -- I was translating

 9     at that moment, but I don't know how artfully I did it, but I did

10     communicate to Mr. Mladic that the guards are telling me that they are

11     trained enough to do blood pressure measuring but if there is anything

12     else they cannot help, and I cannot vouch for them that they can assess

13     if there is anything else.  They just told me that they can measure the

14     blood pressure.  So that's what I translated to Mr. Mladic, and I

15     translated to them everything he told me, and we tried to persuade him to

16     accept a guards, but he said they are not trained well enough to know if

17     I am sick or not and he refused it.

18             So that was the situation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic insisted as

20     a routine matter on blood pressure measurement and is not informed about

21     any further complaint.

22             The Chamber also has in the back of its mind that, in the past

23     when there were complaints and when very serious attention was paid to

24     it, that at least at those instances nothing could be established that

25     was of such a level that it should worry us more as what we knew already

Page 2087

 1     on the basis of the general condition known to us by medical reports of

 2     Mr. Mladic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how often his blood pressure is measured

 4     but I think that it should be a routine measurement taken.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you should have asked for it.  Until

 6     now, Mr. Mladic insisted on it to be measured every day.  The results

 7     were always relayed to the United Nations Detention Unit medical staff

 8     and no one refused to measure his blood pressure.  No other complaints

 9     were uttered, as far as I am aware of.

10             I intend to close this discussion, and I'd like to consult with

11     my colleagues.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber reached the following

15     conclusions.

16             On the basis of the submissions made, until now, the Chamber

17     cannot establish that there's any medical reason that Mr. Mladic is

18     unable to attend court.  That's one.

19             Second, please convey to Mr. Mladic that he has an opportunity to

20     attend court after I've -- we'll make a short break.  And that if he

21     doesn't take that opportunity, that the Chamber will continue to hear the

22     case, and that if Mr. Mladic refuses to enter court, that he can follow

23     the proceedings from elsewhere, but we're not going to interrupt the

24     testimony of the next witness for Mr. Mladic at a later stage to enter.

25     So if he decides not to enter the courtroom, then he'll -- he will only

Page 2088

 1     be allowed to enter the courtroom again once we start with the testimony

 2     of the next witness.

 3             The Chamber considers that it's the duty of the Defence, at least

 4     to be present in court, I'm not giving you any instructions as what to do

 5     or what not to do.  Whatever you decide, the Chamber will continue to

 6     hear the case and would consider it an obligation.  But, again, we're not

 7     hear at this moment to judge upon your obligations, but we consider it

 8     the obligation of the Defence to be present in court to look after the

 9     interests of the accused in the way they consider proper.

10             Therefore, we'll take a break of two minutes.  You'll have an

11     opportunity to inform Mr. Mladic about this all, and then we're back in

12     court and we'll continue either in the presence of Mr. Mladic or in his

13     absence.

14             We take a break.

15                            --- Break taken at 9.50 a.m.

16                           [The accused entered court]

17                           --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic has entered

19     the courtroom.

20             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  Though there are two quick

22     preliminary matters.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Before the witness can be called.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please raise them.

Page 2089

 1             MR. TRALDI:  First, Your Honours, in your oral ruling on the Rule

 2     92 ter motion for Witness RM083, the Chamber directed at transcript page

 3     2001 that we provide information regarding RM083's proffer of testimony.

 4     Specifically, you asked that we inform the Chamber first who authored the

 5     proffer of testimony and, second, when and where the interview with the

 6     witness which forms the basis for the proffer was conducted.

 7             According to Prosecution records, the proffer was drafted by an

 8     OTP staff member, named Mazhar Inayat, on the basis of an interview

 9     conducted by OTP staff with the witness on 4 May 1998 in the witness's

10     country of residence as of that time.

11             The proffer was taken by an OTP investigator, like any other

12     witness statement.  The investigator called it a proffer of testimony

13     because the witness did not review and sign the statement at the time it

14     was taken.  Two years later, the witness did review the information

15     recorded during that interview and incorporated it by reference into his

16     formal statement signed on 20 September 2000.

17             And if Your Honours have other

18     questions [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, when you said the proffer was drafted by

20     an OTP staff member, and then you gave his name, on the basis of an

21     interview conducted by OTP staff with the witness, may I understand this

22     that the drafter of the proffer was present during the interview?

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. TRALDI:  The same investigator, I'm told, made the -- made

25     notes during the course of the interview with the witness, and on the

Page 2090

 1     basis of those, the proffer was drafted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is yes, he was present during the

 3     interview.

 4             Yes.  Thank you for that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So where was it drafted?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I withdraw my question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that was the first preliminary matter.  Thank

 9     you for updating the Chamber.

10             Mr. Traldi, next.

11             MR. TRALDI:  The other preliminary matter, Your Honours, is the

12     adjudicated facts.  And I want to reiterate here from our filing that

13     Mr. Taci's evidence does overlap with adjudicated facts particularly

14     regarding Keraterm camp and the room 3 massacre; facts 1027 to 1054.

15             We have reviewed Mr. Taci's Rule 92 ter material and made

16     appropriate redactions.  We have also redacted a paragraph of his proffer

17     of testimony pursuant to a Defence request in its response to our 92 ter

18     motion for this witness.  That is paragraph 40 of the proffer.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And you have uploaded the new versions, may I take

20     it?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour, we have.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you have communicated with the Defence the

23     new versions.

24             Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have received that document,

Page 2091

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi for this information.  These

 3     are the two issues you would like to raise?

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed there was a

 6     preliminary matter.  Now I do not know whether that was the matter we

 7     discussed earlier or whether that's an other matter?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Another matter, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Another matter.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Just a short one.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We would kindly ask Your Honours to empower our

13     colleague Dan Ivetic to cross-examine Witness RM039 who is coming

14     tomorrow.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We will consider it during the first break and let

16     you know.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

19     courtroom.

20             Mr. Traldi, no protective measures?  92 ter.

21             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness, Mr. Taci, I take it.

Page 2092

 1             Mr. Taci, before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 2     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you by the

 3     usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  SAFET TACI

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Mr. Traldi:

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Taci.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taci, you'll be first examined by Mr. Traldi.

12     Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him on your

13     right.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, can I ask you first to please state your full name for the

17     record.

18        A.   Safet Taci.

19        Q.   And can you tell us where you were born?

20        A.   I was born in Kozarac.

21        Q.   And what municipality is that in?

22        A.   The municipality of Prijedor.

23        Q.   What's your ethnicity, sir?

24        A.   I'm a Muslim.

25        Q.   And, Mr. Taci, do you remember providing a statement to the ICTY

Page 2093

 1     on 20 September 2000?

 2        A.   I do.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask the Court Officer to please

 4     display 65 ter 28361 on our screens.  It's the statement signed by the

 5     witness on 20 September 2000.

 6        Q.   And, sir, now that the document is on the screen before you, I'd

 7     ask that you view the first page here and look at the signature in the

 8     bottom right-hand corner of the English version on the right of your

 9     screen, and I'd ask you to indicate to the Trial Chamber whether you

10     recognise that signature.

11        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that we turn to the last page now.

13        Q.   And, again, I'd ask you if you recognise the signature on that

14     page.

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   And on the first page of this statement -- oh.

17             Sorry.  And whose signature is that, sir?

18        A.   It's my signature.

19        Q.   And on the first page of this statement, it says that in

20     preparing it you reviewed a document entitled "proffer of testimony of

21     Witness Safet Taci."

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask the Court Officer to now display 65 ter

23     28360 on our screens.

24        Q.   And, sir, is this the document you reviewed entitled your proffer

25     of testimony?

Page 2094

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did this document called a proffer record information you

 3     provided to the Office of the Prosecutor during an interview in 1998?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to read and review your statement

 6     and your proffer in preparation for your appearance here today?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   And if I were to ask you today, sir, questions about the material

 9     addressed in these documents, would you provide the same information in

10     substance?

11        A.   Yes, I think so.

12        Q.   Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

13     that you provided the information in the your statement and your proffer

14     of testimony in accordance with the truth?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter

17     28360 and 28361 into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter as public exhibits.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

19             First, 28360, the proffer of testimony.  Mr. Stojanovic, after

20     the explanation by the Prosecution, any further objections?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  We don't have

22     any objections.  We have both statements.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, this proffer of testimony

24     under the number I just mentioned, which is now redacted, paragraph 40

25     being taken out, would receive number?

Page 2095

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28360 becomes Exhibit P158,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P158 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Then the witness statement of Mr. Taci September 2000.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28361 becomes Exhibit P159,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             With the Chamber's permission now that the requirements of

11     Rule 92 ter have been satisfied, I will briefly summarise RM083's written

12     evidence for the record.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Safet Taci was born and raised in Prijedor

15     municipality.  In the beginning of 1992 he was working in Zagreb while

16     his wife and two children were living in Prijedor.  Mr. Taci returned

17     home to take his wife and children away due to rising tensions in the

18     area.

19             When he reunited with his family in their predominantly village

20     of Hrnici, Mr. Taci heard announcements on the radio directing non-Serbs

21     to surrender and turn over power to the Serbs.  Soon thereafter, tanks

22     arrived in his village and a soldier told people that they should

23     surrender or they would be killed.

24             On a Saturday afternoon in the late spring of 1992, Hrnici and

25     other nearby villages were attacked.  Mr. Taci fled to Sivci.

Page 2096

 1             On 14 and 15 June 1992, Serb forces rounded up non-Serb men in

 2     Sivci.  Mr. Taci was put on a bus with men who had been beaten and

 3     bloodied and they were taken to Keraterm.  On the way, he and other men

 4     were beaten and threatened by Serb soldiers, and Mr. Taci saw dead bodies

 5     and destroyed homes.

 6             When Mr. Taci arrived at Keraterm, he was put in room 2 with 500

 7     other men, some of whom had been severely beaten.  One day, 180 to 200

 8     people, mostly from Hambarine, were squeezed into room 3 saw at Keraterm.

 9     Mr. Taci had saw a spot light pointed at the room and a machine-gun aimed

10     at the door.  Eventually the door opened, people ran out, and the

11     machine-gun began firing.

12             The next morning, Mr. Taci and other prisoners were ordered to

13     load the bodies of dead and wounded people onto a truck together.  He

14     became physically ill.  Then Mr. Taci was taken to Trnopolje.  He left

15     Trnopolje around 21 August 1992 on a bus in a convoy bound for Travnik.

16     During the trip, men were ordered off the bus, but Mr. Taci remained

17     aboard.  His brother-in-law got off.  Before the bus drove away, Mr. Taci

18     could see that men had been lined up two by two.  He never saw his

19     brother-in-law again.

20             And that concludes the summary of this witness's written

21     evidence, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

23             If you have any further questions, please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I do, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Mr. Taci, now that I have summarised your written evidence, I'm

Page 2097

 1     going to ask several questions to clarify or expand upon that evidence.

 2             First, sir, can you tell us what the atmosphere was like in your

 3     area of Prijedor when you arrived in April 1992?

 4        A.   The atmosphere was getting increasingly tense, more and more

 5     dramatic.  The traffic between Prijedor, Banja Luka, and Trnopolje had

 6     been obstructed.  Schools had stopped working.  Children stopped going to

 7     schools.  The telephones weren't working.  You couldn't contact anyone

 8     anymore.  The water supply was cut off.  The lighting, the town lights

 9     were cut off.  This all led to psychological tension.  People didn't know

10     what to expect and didn't know what might happen.  People from the

11     surrounding villages in the Kozarac area in the direction of Marakovac,

12     for example, or people from other areas, from Jakopci all gathered in one

13     place in the village of Sivci and that's where the buses collected them.

14     They stopped there, some came, others left, but the tension grew from day

15     to day because there was also a shortage of food.  There was no

16     electricity.  People were losing patience, and given the uncertainty of

17     the situation it was tense.  The buses that arrived with Serbian soldiers

18     who had gathered these people put them on the buses and took them to

19     various places, to camps, to camps such as Omarska and Keraterm that are

20     well-known.  Some stayed in Trnopolje, others were taken away in an

21     unknown direction, others lingered in houses that weren't in those

22     places.  I stayed with a relative of mine.  On the following day, they

23     cleared the village of men, of adults, and they took them away to these

24     camps again.

25        Q.   And you say in your proffer of testimony, now Exhibit P158, that

Page 2098

 1     you had gone back to Prijedor to take your family out.  Did you ever wind

 2     up bringing them out of Prijedor?

 3        A.   No, I tried to do this on several occasions.  I tried to pay for

 4     it.  I did everything so that we could leave together.  My wife and my

 5     children and myself.  But the noose was tightening.  It was becoming more

 6     and more expensive.  The tickets cost up to 2.000 German marks to go to

 7     Croatia or to free territory.  That was per person, and this was

 8     impossible for -- for us to pay.  I didn't have such money.  I was the

 9     only one working.  My wife and children stayed at home.  We lived from

10     selling farm produce as well, so it wasn't possible to pay, and they

11     could not leave, which is why we stayed there.

12        Q.   And, sir, you say in your proffer, now Exhibit P158, that the

13     forces attacking Hrnici seemed to be targeting the local mosque.  Can you

14     tell us how you knew they were targeting the mosque?

15        A.   Well, I could observe this when I saw the shelling from the

16     surrounding hills, from Kozara.  The shells fell around the mosque, on

17     the whole, and a friend of mine had a house 2- or 300 metres away.

18     Someone was probably trying to direct the shells because the shell -- the

19     shells were falling nearer and nearer the mosque and finally the mosque

20     was hit by one of the shells.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that the Court Officer call up 65 ter 10891

22     at this time.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm now going to ask you a few questions about your time in

24     Keraterm camp.  First, sir, do you recognise the building in this

25     picture?

Page 2099

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber what that building is?

 3        A.   As far as I know, this was a warehouse for ceramic tiles.  You

 4     have open rooms there and concrete on the floor.  It's just a warehouse.

 5     Later it was transformed and it became the Keraterm camp.

 6        Q.   And to the best of your knowledge, sir, does this picture fairly

 7     and accurately depict the warehouse at the Keraterm camp?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, it does.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I request that 65 ter 10891 be

10     admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10891 becomes Exhibit P160,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P160 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, your proffer of testimony describes the conditions in room 2

17     at Keraterm where it says you were detained along with 500 other people.

18     Could you describe those people for the Trial Chamber, including their

19     approximate ages, genders, and ethnicity.

20        A.   When I had just arrived in the Keraterm camp, the Serbian

21     soldiers first ordered us to lie down on the concrete, on the asphalt

22     that was very hot.  It was insufferable, intolerable.  We had to lie down

23     on our stomachs and put our hands behind our backs and turn our heads to

24     the side, and we remained lying on that hot concrete or asphalt, whatever

25     it was.  It was intolerable.  People tried not to have direct contact

Page 2100

 1     with the asphalt, by the Serbian soldiers noticed that, and one came and

 2     hit someone in the head, kicked him in the head and told him to lie down.

 3     Some tried to turn around on the other side.  I myself tried to do that.

 4     But they knew which side you were lying on, but we tried to turn to the

 5     other side to get a bit of air.

 6             Later, they ordered us after a certain period of time to get up,

 7     to put all our personal belongings in a box - everything we had in our

 8     pockets was to be put in a box - and then they took two people to one

 9     room, three to another, five to another room.  I went to room number 2

10     where the situation was terrible.  It was very hot.  Some people had been

11     beaten inside, and they were being -- they were -- they were groaning

12     because it hurt.  We had give them some room for them to lie down there

13     because we were lined up next to each other.  It was a small room, 10 by

14     12 metres, perhaps, and it's difficult for 500 men, 500 people to fit in

15     such a room.  Some would leave, others would arrive.

16             There was some people who couldn't sit down, they had to remain

17     lying down and they took up even more space.  When they lied down, people

18     were afraid.  They had been beaten.  They didn't know anything about

19     their families' fate.  They didn't know where they were or how they were.

20     As time passed, the situation grew worse.  There was no hygiene, nothing.

21     We'd been confined there.  It was summer.  I only had a T-shirt like this

22     one on me.  I tried to take it off.  On one occasion it fell to pieces.

23     They trampled on us.  They would tread on our stomachs, on our head.  We

24     couldn't drive them away because we'd been put in such a room, and there

25     was tin on the sides and the room became very heated.  And they threw in

Page 2101

 1     a plastic barrel to the left of the entrance on one occasion.  They

 2     closed the door.  We didn't have any air --

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt.  But if I could ask you, you say

 4     there were 500 other men in the room.

 5             Can you just tell us maybe anything those men might have had in

 6     common - their nationality, their approximate ages - to help us identify

 7     the people who were in the room with you?

 8        A.   They were not of the same ethnicity or of the same age.  When we

 9     were moved to Trnopolje, I think the age range was from 16 to 70, in my

10     estimate.  There were also Croats there that I knew personally from

11     Trnopolje who were there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, there may be some confusion.

13             I think your question was about Keraterm.  However, the answer in

14     the last part was about Trnopolje.

15             What Mr. Traldi would like to know, Mr. Taci, I think is, if you

16     say not all the people in Keraterm, the 500 people, were of the same

17     ethnicity, does that mean that all ethnicities were represented among the

18     500?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all.  As I said, it was just

20     Muslims who were there and some Croats whom I knew.  Non-Serb population.

21     The non-Serb population, 100 per cent.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were they men or women?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Men.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Age?  Could you tell us something about their age,

25     even if there was a range, what that range approximately was?

Page 2102

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 16 to 70, even older than

 2     that.  That is my estimate of the age range.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And, sir, you say you were also in Trnopolje.  When you were

 6     detained there, were the other prisoners of the same ethnicities that

 7     were held at Keraterm?  That is to say, Muslims and Croats.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were the oldest and youngest prisoners in Trnopolje about the

10     same age, 16 and 70, as the oldest and youngest prisoners you identified

11     in Keraterm?

12        A.   Yes, they were there, or they were later transferred to Trnopolje

13     from Keraterm.

14        Q.   And the oldest and youngest prisoners in the camp, did they

15     remain there the whole time you were there?

16        A.   Which camp are you thinking of, sir?

17        Q.   At this point I'm asking about Trnopolje, sir.

18        A.   Yes, they were.  I'm sorry, could you repeat the question again,

19     please.

20        Q.   Yes.  In Trnopolje, the oldest and youngest prisoners who were in

21     the camp with you, did they remain in the camp from when you got there

22     till when you departed, the entire time you were there?

23        A.   Yes, they did.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'll limit my examination

25     regarding the conditions in room 2 and in Trnopolje in reliance upon the

Page 2103

 1     adjudicated facts.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The same observation as I made earlier, that, of

 3     course, you draw the lines.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I appreciate that, Your Honour.

 6             I'd ask the Court Officer now bring 65 ter 05987 to our screens.

 7     This is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps regarding events on 24

 8     July 1992.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, I'd like to ask one additional question.

10             In Trnopolje, Mr. Taci, were there any women and/or children?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were.  Before I arrived,

12     and they brought them in after I arrived.  Those who remained in the

13     neighbouring villages.  Some were later deported, but some did come

14     later.  I did see women and children around.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And children.  That means also children below

16     the age of 16?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   And, sir, on page 1 of the English and pages 1 and 3 of the B/C/S

22     in e-court, this report says as follows:

23             "The prisoners at the collection centre in Prijedor located in

24     the Keraterm factory attempted a mass escape on the night of the 24th.

25     The attempt was thwarted, and about 50 persons were killed in the

Page 2104

 1     process."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we see in the B/C/S version this portion as well?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  In the B/C/S, Your Honour, it's at the bottom of

 4     page 1 in the e-court and continues at the top of page 3.  You will see

 5     the word "Keraterm" in quotes in the bottom right-hand corner of page 1

 6     and that's the sentence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not on our screens a minute ago, I

 8     think.  I mean, we see it in the English ...

 9             Could we move to the second -- next page in the B/C/S.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And it's the very top of this page, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now see it.  We didn't have the bottom of

12     the previous page earlier on our screen.

13             Have you had an opportunity to read it, Mr. Taci?

14             Perhaps you again read, Mr. Traldi, so that Mr. Taci has the

15     whole of the portion.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   And, sir, the text says:

18             "The prisoners at the collection centre in Prijedor located in

19     the Keraterm factory attempted a mass escape on the night of the 24th.

20     The attempt was thwarted and about 50 prisoners were killed in the

21     process."

22             That's the end of the quote.  Was there a mass escape attempt the

23     night of the room 3 massacre?

24        A.   The statement is totally incorrect.  First of all, it wasn't a

25     collection centre.  It was a camp.  It was a torture camp.  And then it

Page 2105

 1     was not 50 people.  I think in my estimate it was up 200.  Surely people

 2     did not try to escape at all.  Afterwards, I found out after the mass

 3     killing, I spoke with a young man who survived.  He said that he had been

 4     poisoned and that he fainted.  I asked him how did he survive, and he

 5     said that the Serbian soldiers lobbed toxins into the room.  People were

 6     panicking.  They felt worse and worse.  It was a small room.  It was

 7     stifling.  They ripped their shirts off.  They tried to avoid the toxins

 8     that were inside or whatever it was there.  I'm not sure what it was

 9     exactly, but he fainted, and the others forced the doors open so that

10     they could get some air.  They were shouting, Kill us, rather, but let us

11     out.  And then there were shouts from the Serbian side.  They were

12     shouting, Halt.  Don't run.  But it was all just a trick.  People

13     couldn't go out.  They were crowding and pushing around the door, and

14     they were greeted by gun-fire once they got to the door.

15        Q.   And, finally, sir, in your written evidence, you describe the

16     next morning wounded and dead people being loaded onto a truck together.

17     My question is:  Did any of the wounded people who were loaded onto that

18     truck ever come back to Keraterm camp alive?

19        A.   The following morning, the trucks came, large trailer trucks.

20     They parked so that the rear end was facing room 3.  The bodies were

21     strewn all around.  They were not gathered into a pile because the people

22     were trying to escape, and then they ordered us to load the bodies.

23     First of all, they asked for volunteers.  People didn't dare to come out.

24     Then they made a few people get out and load the bodies onto the trucks.

25     There was still some wounded people there who were helping.  They didn't

Page 2106

 1     know the number of dead was larger.  All of them had to be loaded onto

 2     the trucks, and then the trucks left.  I never saw the people who were

 3     wounded again.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this completes my examination.  I

 6     would ask that 65 ter 05987 be admitted as a public exhibit.  The

 7     document was seized from CSB Banja Luka in 1998, and as Your Honours can

 8     see from looking at page 5 of the B/C/S original the document is signed,

 9     dated, and bears a stamp referring to the 1st Krajina Corps.  In my

10     submission, it carries sufficient indicia of authenticity for admission.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05987 becomes Exhibit P161,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P161 is admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, in view of the -- a bit extraordinary course of

16     proceedings this morning, the Chamber is considering to have only two,

17     and perhaps slightly longer breaks.

18             Are you ready to start your cross-examination which would then go

19     until -- at least the first portion, until 11.00?

20             Mr. Taci, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

21     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.  You'll find him to your left.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Taci.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   I am Miodrag Stojanovic and I'm representing, with the rest of

Page 2107

 1     the Defence team, Mr. Mladic.  I would like to put some questions to you

 2     regarding your testimony.  I understood that the events in Slovenia and

 3     Croatia which preceded the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina happened when

 4     you were in Zagreb; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You told the OTP that you were not militarily engaged there.

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   Did they ask you to join the military?

 9        A.   No, they did not.

10        Q.   And you decided to go to Bosnia after seeing what was going on

11     there.

12        A.   No, I did not go with the intention of seeing what was going on

13     there, but I went in order to take my wife and children to free

14     territory.

15        Q.   And you reached your village in late April 1992; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Would you please tell the Court which route did you take to get

18     to Prijedor?

19        A.   Well, I really couldn't tell you.  The buses were not taking the

20     main roads or the roads that they used to take before.  Mostly it was the

21     direction of Slavonski Brod through Derventa.  After that, I wasn't

22     really following which route it was, so I really couldn't say how I got

23     there.  In any event, I reached Kozarac from the direction of Banja Luka.

24        Q.   I'm asking you this simply because at the time the state border

25     between Bosanski and Slavonski Brod and between this area and Derventa,

Page 2108

 1     there was intense fighting between the Croatian and the Serbian armed

 2     forces.  Did you see that?

 3        A.   I did see soldiers, of course, but I didn't see any fighting.

 4        Q.   And on the road, were you stopped at check-points by the police

 5     or the military of either of the warring parties?

 6        A.   Yes, we were.

 7        Q.   And nobody prevented you at that time from reaching Prijedor; is

 8     that correct?

 9        A.   No.  We showed our IDs, our bags were checked, and that was all.

10        Q.   And, sir, did you serve in the Yugoslav People's Army?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Can you please tell us when and where, and if at that time you

13     were a military conscript?

14        A.   I served in 1983 in the then-Yugoslav People's Army.  I served in

15     the Republic of Slovenia in Postojna to be precise.

16        Q.   And I asked you whether at the time - 1991, 1992, early 1992 -

17     you were a military conscript and were on military lists?

18        A.   No, I wasn't.  Nobody looked for me either.  I told you that I

19     worked in Croatia, my company was located in Zagreb, and no one called me

20     up and I was not obliged to respond.  I was not a conscript.

21        Q.   When you came to Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was not your goal to

22     join any kind of unit or to take part in the fighting?

23        A.   Not in the least.  I was not definitely going there to fight for

24     anything.  I just went because I wanted to take my family out.  I had

25     tried already a couple of times before, but I didn't succeed.

Page 2109

 1        Q.   And did you tell in any procedure, any state or judicial organ,

 2     did you tell them about your reasons why you went there, in 1990 -- did

 3     you tell them any different reasons as to why you left?

 4        A.   No, I did not.  I told them these very same reasons.  Go ahead, I

 5     can hear you.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm just pausing.  I'm waiting for the translation to

 7     finish.  That's I'm waiting, so just so that you know.

 8             When you came in April 1992, did you have any prior indication of

 9     what was going on as far as the security situation was concerned in

10     Prijedor and the surrounding area?

11        A.   I didn't have any information about that.  I saw on TV in Croatia

12     that there was firing and shelling in Sarajevo and that it was spreading

13     to other places.  But from what we could hear, it seemed quiet in our

14     area.  There was no combat, no arrests, no shooting, and this is why I

15     left in the first place, to try to get my family out.

16        Q.   When you arrived Bosnia, or to Prijedor or, rather, Kozarac, did

17     you notice that the political and the security situation was beginning to

18     deteriorate?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you please tell us if you knew that the incident in Kozarac,

21     which caused this deterioration, was prompted by the placing of the flag

22     on the police station in Kozarac?

23        A.   Yes.  I heard stories that the Serbian forces wanted to take down

24     these flags, I don't know which flag exactly was there, that they wanted

25     to put up the Serb flag.  It was already under Serbian control, and 99

Page 2110

 1     per cent of the Muslim population in Kozarac did not agree with them

 2     putting up this flag.

 3             I don't know if this is the beginning of everything that happened

 4     or not, but I know that they did not want to agree to this change of

 5     flag.

 6        Q.   And did you hear that there was a referendum conducted in Bosnia

 7     on the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes, I did hear about that.

 9        Q.   Did you hear that the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

10     as the constitutive people, requested that -- or stated that a referendum

11     could not be conducted without the participation or the will of one of

12     the people?

13        A.   Yes, I did hear about that.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, have you ever communicated with the

15     Prosecution?  For example, this last question, that the Serbian people

16     thought that the referendum could not be conducted without their

17     participation.  Is there any dispute about this?  I'm looking at you.

18     I'm also looking at Mr. Groome.  Apart from anything else.  Just whether

19     that was what the -- what was claimed by the Serbian people.

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I do not believe so, but the

21     Prosecution welcomes an opportunity to meet the Defence to discuss any of

22     these matters, and the Prosecution remains open to agreeing to facts

23     which are beyond reasonable dispute.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I would encourage you to engage in

25     such discussions.  Because what we hear is that the witness heard about

Page 2111

 1     all these kind of things.  Rather, establish it in a more proper way or

 2     agree on that, this is what happened.  You may proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I will

 4     continue.  That will only serve as the basis for my next question.

 5        Q.   Sir, in view of the guidance that we received just now, after you

 6     said that you had heard that the representatives of the Serbian people

 7     refused to accept this referendum at the Assembly of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina, I want to ask you:  Who did you hear this from, when did you

 9     hear it, and exactly what did you hear regarding the position of the

10     Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11        A.   Actually, I heard it on the Serbian radio in Prijedor that was

12     already under the control of the Serbian forces.  They had Prijedor under

13     their control.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just ask you this:  Did you know that there

15     was a police station outpost in Kozarac that was a subdivision of the

16     police station in Prijedor?  Were you aware of that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you know that the -- there was a division along ethnic lines

19     among the police in all the police stations in the Prijedor area?

20        A.   Yes, I did know about that.  When the Serbian forces captured

21     Prijedor, they disarmed their colleagues whom they used to work with.

22     They sent them home or wherever.  They were no longer serving in the

23     Serbian army.  They were not -- they didn't trust them anymore.  And I

24     didn't really know that many people in Kozarac, but I think that also in

25     the local commune in Kozarac it was the same thing: Only Muslim policemen

Page 2112

 1     remained.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And now this question:  Are you aware that in the

 3     Prijedor municipality area in the settlement of Ljubija, Croatian

 4     policemen stayed there and they ran the police department there in

 5     Ljubija?

 6        A.   No, I didn't know that.  It was not something that I could have

 7     heard.  We didn't really have that much information or any reports from

 8     Ljubija or from the environs of Prijedor.  We were just focussing on our

 9     own suffering, if I can put it that way, and what was happening with us,

10     with our wives and children.  I didn't hear about that.  I'm not informed

11     about that.  I didn't know anything about it.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a

13     good moment.  I'm about to move to another topic.  So perhaps it's a good

14     time to take the break now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, it is a good moment.  Could you

16     tell us how much more time you would need?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  In view of

18     the documents and the questions, I expect I will need another 45 minutes.

19             And I also have another request.  My colleagues have told me that

20     General Mladic is not feeling well again, and perhaps it would be a good

21     thing for somebody to look at him after all.

22             Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That is a matter for the Registry.  We will take a

24     break, and we'll -- since we will take only two breaks, we'll take a

25     little bit of a longer break.

Page 2113

 1             But I will first ask the witness to be escorted out of the

 2     courtroom.  Mr. Taci, would you please go with the usher.  We'll take a

 3     break of half an hour.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 11.30.

 6                            --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 9             Mr. Lukic, it's -- the request that Mr. Ivetic cross-examines the

10     witness coming second after this witness is granted.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I also put on the record that the Chamber was

13     informed that Mr. Mladic has been seen by the nurse and that we continue.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Taci, please be seated.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Could I kindly ask Your Honours for the document 65 ter 1D00111.

21     It's a document we've had occasion to see more than once before.  It has

22     not yet been admitted into evidence, and we are looking for an

23     opportunity to tender it.

24        Q.   May I just ask you to look at the left side of your screen with

25     the B/C/S version.

Page 2114

 1             This is a document authored by the commander of the

 2     Territorial Defence Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hasan Efendic, dated 29

 3     April 1992.  That is after your arrival in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In item 4

 4     we read, among other things:

 5             "Accelerate the planning of and commence combat activities in the

 6     entire territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and co-ordinate

 7     them with the Territorial Defence Staffs of the regions, districts, and

 8     the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 9             First of all let me ask you:  Have you had occasion to see this

10     document before?

11        A.   Never.

12        Q.   Second, I want to ask you:  Living in your village, was there any

13     time when you noticed the implementation of this order in terms of

14     organising and commencing combat activities in the area, which is your

15     native area?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, how is this witness supposed to

17     know that, that is, in effecting this order if he didn't know anything

18     about the order?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

20     Your Honour, let me answer.

21             This man was in that area at the time when it was engulfed in

22     serious combat activity which the witness must have noticed, and my

23     question to him is had he noticed any preparation for these activities.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question was Mr. Stojanovic, and I'll read it

25     to you:

Page 2115

 1             "Second, I want to ask you:  Living in your village, was there

 2     any time when you noticed the implementation of this order?"

 3             That's what you asked.

 4             And I'm saying:  He is telling you now he has never seen this

 5     order before, how would he know that any activity in his village is in

 6     compliance or in implementation of this order.  How would he know that?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             In that case, I will try to get at my point in a different way.

 9        Q.   With all due respect to what you've said already, sir, was there

10     any time while you were living in your village when you saw the

11     preparation and organisation of your villagers for an organised defence?

12        A.   I did not see any gatherings or hear any appeals on the part of

13     the Muslim population, as we call it.  But I did see such activity on the

14     part of the Serbian army.  Because even before the shelling, a tank was

15     placed at the intersection in Kozarac, whereas the people had already

16     been intimidated enough and they did not dare go there.  The people felt

17     uncertainty and anxiety and what were we supposed to expect, we, the

18     people in Kozarac and the surrounding area.  In the part between us and

19     Croatia everything had already been blocked.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps needless to say, but the question was about

21     villagers, whereas the document, if you still are referring to the

22     document, is about TO.  Now if you say it's all the same, then, of

23     course, we will move on, but at least if you wanted to establish whether

24     what is seen is the -- in the document apart from whether it was the

25     implementation of this decision, but then, please, it would be better to

Page 2116

 1     then to use, at least, for factual observations the -- what the document

 2     tells us.

 3             Let's proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Sir, the next thing I want to ask you is this, and I will call up

 6     a document in e-court.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D194.

 8        Q.   While we are waiting, let me say that it is a report on the work

 9     of the public security station in Prijedor for the past nine months, as

10     you can see on the cover page.  And now let us look at page 2 in B/C/S,

11     and page 2 in English.  Let's look at the next page, 3 in B/C/S and

12     English.

13             Now, please, look at the second paragraph in this report.  It

14     says that the war activities began on 22 May 1992, when Muslim extremists

15     attacked five military conscripts in the village of Hambarine.

16             My question is:  Did you ever hear what actually happened there?

17        A.   First of all, I don't come from Hambarine.  It's about 115

18     kilometres away.  I know about the place, as such, but I've never been

19     there.  I spent most of my time working in Croatia.

20             Concerning this killing and all these activities, I was not even

21     able to hear anything about it, especially on that day, because we were

22     completely isolated.  I told you at the beginning that we did not have

23     any telephone communications or electricity or water.  We had to make do

24     as best we could, get water from a well, et cetera.

25        Q.   Did you hear what happened in this incident after the event?

Page 2117

 1        A.   I heard a bit when I was detained in Keraterm when those people

 2     were brought in.  Something to the effect that they had organised some

 3     attacks in Ljubija.  I heard that from people who were talking to them

 4     from the Serbian side.  I heard they were brought there, placed in a

 5     separate room, and they ended up the way they ended up, which I already

 6     described.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the next passage in this paragraph.  It says

 8     the conflict escalated with the attack on the military convoy in

 9     Jakupovici village on 24 May 1992.  Are [as interpreted] Jakupovici close

10     to Kozarac and the place where you lived?

11        A.   I don't know how much the distance matters, but roughly I would

12     say it's 10 to 12 kilometres away from Kozarac and I am still further

13     down on the other side in Hrnici village.  But we never went there, nor

14     we had any communication with Jakupovici, nor did I have any information

15     as to what was going on there.

16        Q.   After these events, were you informed at any point that there had

17     been a attack against a military convoy?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   All right.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I suggest to you that you first try

21     to find out whether the witness has any knowledge about an event before

22     you put documents to him which describe that event.  And I would also

23     encourage you to ask the witness mainly about things he observed

24     personally and knows something about.

25             Please proceed.

Page 2118

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   I shall ask you, without calling up any documents, did you have

 3     information at any time that the armed formations of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 4     attacked the town of Prijedor wherein 17 members of the police force and

 5     the Army of the Republika Srpska were killed?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would -- would a time-frame perhaps

 7     possibly assist the witness to answer your question?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   I'm asking about an event that happened on the 30th of May, 1992.

10        A.   This is not the first time that I'm saying this.  We had

11     absolutely no information from Prijedor.  I did not move anywhere from my

12     village.  I did not speak to anyone.  I did not communicate with anybody.

13     We had no access to information from the media for me to be able to hear

14     what was going on elsewhere.  We were in complete isolation.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have occasion at any point to meet or hear

16     about a man called Slavko Ecimovic?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   During your stay in Keraterm or Trnopolje, did you have occasion

19     to meet or hear about a man called Aziz Aliskovic?

20        A.   This is the first time I hear the name.

21        Q.   Are you aware that after these incidents in Kozarac, an ultimatum

22     was made through Radio Prijedor and other media to civilians to surrender

23     their weapons and for civilians to move elsewhere to stay with families

24     in Prijedor to avoid casualties?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the last event you talked about was

Page 2119

 1     an attack on the town of Prijedor by armed formations of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina.  Now what other incident did you refer to in your question

 3     when you said, "...after these incidents in Kozarac," which, apparently,

 4     is -- is not an attack on the town of Prijedor.  Could you be a bit more

 5     precise in your questioning.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7        Q.   After the incidents related to the attack against the column in

 8     Jakupovici - I'm talking about the attack also against the soldiers in

 9     Hambarine - did you have occasion before the army attacked Kozarac to

10     hear such communication?

11        A.   No, I did not.  And I've already said a couple of times, we had

12     no access to media reports.  The postal services had not been working for

13     a while already.  There were no newspapers.  It's only after the tank was

14     placed at the intersection that I heard sirens and people started moving

15     out and seeking safety.  Maybe if some families had moved even earlier in

16     order not to find themselves in that encirclement.

17        Q.   I was asked to ask you this:  At that time, did you have a

18     military obligation in the sense that you were a conscript who was

19     obligated to report to the police force or an army unit?

20        A.   Nobody called me up and there was no army.  By that time, people

21     were in an encirclement.  They were going about in civilian clothing and

22     they had absolutely no chance at defending themselves.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  For those who are not familiar with the testing

24     system of Dutch sirens, I just inform you that on the every first Monday

25     of the month at exactly 12.00, there's a test of the sirens so there's

Page 2120

 1     nothing worrying, apart from the testing being done.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour,

 3     could I briefly speak to Mr. Mladic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Briefly, yes.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I earlier suggested that Mr. Mladic takes

 8     off his earphones because that explains, most likely, the level of the

 9     volume of his voice.  But since consultation is done by now, let's

10     proceed.

11             Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   I would just like to clarify the last part of your answer.

14             Bearing in mind the fact that you said that you did your military

15     service in the JNA, my question is as follows:  In accordance with the

16     war-time assignment, after you had, in fact, done your military service,

17     did you have a position you were to report to in the case of war, and if

18     that was the case, to which military or war-time unit were you to report

19     to?  Is that information that is contained in your military booklet?

20        A.   As I said, I was a military conscript and I was involved in

21     military training on Manjaca.  As to whether I was to report there, you

22     know where Manjaca is located, well, I was never called.  Again, I never

23     went up there, and I wouldn't have gone there even if I had been

24     summoned.

25        Q.   So did you have a war-time assignment, since you went to Croatia

Page 2121

 1     to do anything there?  Were you under the obligation of reporting to any

 2     units there?  Is there anything you can tell us about that?

 3        A.   No.  No one ever asked me about that.  Croatia was already at

 4     war.  People were walking around town.  No one ever asked me whether I

 5     was a conscript, whether I should report to anyone if the town or the

 6     place was attacked.  I never received information of that kind.  I never

 7     received a summons of any kind.

 8        Q.   After the Serbian armed forces entered Kozarac -- where were you,

 9     in fact, located when they entered Kozarac?

10        A.   Well, I was in my relative's house.  In my mother-in-law's house.

11        Q.   That was the village of Sivci, a few kilometres from Kozarac;

12     isn't that correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Did you at any point in time see members of the armed Bosniak

15     forces in the village of Sivci?

16        A.   No, never.

17        Q.   They took you away in the direction of Keraterm in a mini-bus, if

18     I have understood you correctly?

19        A.   Yes, you have.

20        Q.   The man who drove you there didn't allow anyone to stop you,

21     maltreat you, or abuse you; is that correct?

22        A.   Well, he had to stop because we reached a barricade and had to

23     turn back.  But he didn't want anyone to get off the mini-bus, although

24     they asked for at least two persons to get out of the mini-bus.  But the

25     driver didn't want to let these two people out.  He said he'd return them

Page 2122

 1     later, but he had to go to Prijedor for an interrogation with them.

 2     That's what happened, more or less.

 3        Q.   You don't know who that person is, to this very day?

 4        A.   No.  I couldn't know his name.  He was wearing civilian trousers

 5     and a sort of camouflage shirt.

 6        Q.   Having arrived in Keraterm, did you at any point in time find out

 7     who had organised those facilities to serve as a collection centre or

 8     camp?

 9        A.   I didn't hear about any one person having organised this, but

10     it's quite natural that it was the Serbian forces who were behind its

11     organisation.

12        Q.   While you were in Keraterm, you were taken away for

13     interrogation?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know the person who interrogated you?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   Would you agree with me if I said that it was an inspector in

18     civilian clothing?

19        A.   Yes.  He was in civilian clothing, but as for being an inspector,

20     well, I don't know.  Perhaps he just an ordinary citizen, a peasant.  I

21     don't know.

22        Q.   The subject of his interrogation, what he interrogated you about

23     was where you lived in Croatia and what you did there; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   He also asked you how it was possible for you to reach Prijedor

Page 2123

 1     in April 1992?

 2        A.   No, he didn't ask me about that.

 3        Q.   And, by the way, did you go there by bus; and how did you travel

 4     between Derventa and Banja Luka in April 1992?

 5        A.   I haven't understood your question.

 6        Q.   I'll try and rephrase it.  I'm interested in part of your trip

 7     when you travelled between Derventa, which was under the control of the

 8     Croatian armed forces at the time, to Banja Luka, which was under the

 9     control of the Serbian forces at the time.  How did you travel between

10     those two points?

11        A.   I said I travelled by bus.  But as for the route the bus took,

12     whether it drove down the main road or byroads, I don't know.  But in any

13     event, I returned home from the direction of Banja Luka.

14        Q.   On that occasion, no one forced you to give any kind of

15     statement.  What you said, you said of your own free will?

16        A.   Yes.  They asked me whether I had anything in my bag, what do you

17     have in your bag, they asked for my ID, and that was it.

18        Q.   When you were interrogated by this civilian in Keraterm, did

19     anyone beat you there or did anyone ask you to state something that did

20     not correspond to the truth?

21        A.   No, not in the course of the interrogation.

22        Q.   You spent a total of one month in Keraterm, or just over a month

23     in Keraterm; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   During that period of time, were you able to see whether Keraterm

Page 2124

 1     was under military or civilian supervision?

 2        A.   I think it was under military supervision because they were

 3     wearing camouflage uniforms.  But, in fact, I didn't know whether the

 4     police had perhaps changed their uniforms.

 5        Q.   Your conclusion is based on the type of uniforms that the guards

 6     were wearing; is that correct?

 7        A.   I couldn't have concluded that on any other basis.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Counsel previously

 9     asked whether it was under the supervision of the military or of the

10     police.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I will ask you about certain questions that you mentioned in your

13     statement.  Do you remember that you mentioned someone whose nickname was

14     Duca?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   Did you find out who this person was and which unit he belonged

17     to or which body he was a part of?

18        A.   I heard that he was a Serb.  As for his full name, I never found

19     out what it was, and I never tried to find out what it was.

20        Q.   Did you at any point in time find out that he was sentenced to 31

21     years in prison in a court in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   No, I didn't hear about that.  And I didn't read about it in the

23     media either.

24        Q.   You mentioned someone whose nickname is Cupo.  Do you remember

25     that?

Page 2125

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   Did you at any point in time discover the name of that person?

 3        A.   No, I didn't find out anything else about him, apart from the

 4     fact that he had a twin brother.  But I never found out what his full

 5     name was.

 6        Q.   Did you hear that Cupo who had a twin brother stood trial before

 7     the ICTY?

 8        A.   No, as I have said.  And I didn't know his first and last name.

 9        Q.   You also mentioned someone whose nickname was Kajin.  So my

10     question is the same:  Did you ever find out who this person was.  Kajin.

11        A.   No, I didn't.

12        Q.   You couldn't say whether they were members of the military or of

13     the police force; isn't that correct?

14        A.   No, I couldn't say.  I did see Kajin, but as to whether he was a

15     policeman or not, or something else, I couldn't say.

16        Q.   Did you ever hear the name of Dusko Sikirica.

17        A.   Yes, I have heard that name.

18        Q.   Did you ever know whether he was in Keraterm or around Keraterm

19     and whether he was performing any duties in Keraterm at the time that you

20     were there?

21        A.   There was nothing I could say about that.

22        Q.   You couldn't tell the Prosecution when directly asked about it

23     whether you could recognise any of the people who fired on the detainees

24     in room 3 on that fatal night?

25        A.   No, I never those people and I never saw them before, and I never

Page 2126

 1     saw them afterwards either.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I'd like us to have a look at part of your statement, it's the

 5     proffer the testimony.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC:  And could we see the 65 ter document, 28360 in

 7     the e-court system, please.  And let's have a look at page 4 in the B/C/S

 8     version.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit P158, Your Honour.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's number 63.

11        Q.   Paragraph 63.  And have a look at this part of your statement,

12     please.  You say the following.  At one point in time, you saw the door

13     being opened and you saw people from inside coming out.  Can you see that

14     part of your statement?

15        A.   Yes, I can.

16        Q.   At that point in time you were in room number 2.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The opening from which you could see this, was it a window or was

19     it some other kind of opening?

20        A.   It wasn't a window.  It was the door through which we entered

21     room number 2 and through which we exited room number 2.

22        Q.   You said that the door to the room 3 opened.  Can you tell us

23     specifically what you saw?  How was it that the door came to be opened?

24        A.   Well, I've already said.  The first time that you could hear

25     moans and shouts for air, that they were asking, Shoot.  They were -- I

Page 2127

 1     could hear that they were banging on the door asking for the door to be

 2     opened.  I don't know if it was locked or not.  Most probably they broke

 3     through the door to get some air, and when they broke through the door,

 4     then the Serb soldiers started shooting at them as if they were trying to

 5     escape, because they had knocked down the door after the soldiers had

 6     warned them, Stop running.  We're going to shoot.

 7        Q.   And before the shooting started, did you see how many people, how

 8     many inmates managed to leave facility 3?  Did you keep looking?

 9        A.   The question is not clear to me.

10        Q.   All right.  I'm sorry.  I will rephrase it then.

11             Did you see - and if you did see - in your estimate how many

12     people from facility 3 left that room before the shooting started?

13        A.   When you say "people," do you mean the prisoners?  What sort of

14     people?

15        Q.   Yes.  Prisoners, inmates, people who had been brought in?

16        A.   You mean if they left -- if they exited before the shooting

17     started?

18        Q.   Yes, that's right?

19        A.   No, I didn't see any of them come outside.  No.

20        Q.   In your statement, I think you said something slightly different.

21     Can you look at paragraph 63, please.  You said that you saw how people

22     were coming out and that some of them started running in different

23     directions, and now you say that did you not see anybody come outside

24     before the shooting.  What is correct?

25        A.   Well, you asked me if anybody came out before the shooting.

Page 2128

 1     Nobody came out before the shooting.  The people started to go out after

 2     they broke through the door.  After the poisons were lobbed inside, they

 3     couldn't get out.  Then they broke through the door.  They had nowhere

 4     else to go.  But by that time, they had already started shooting at them.

 5     They couldn't all run in one direction.

 6        Q.   The young man whom you mentioned in your statement and who

 7     survived the tragic incident told you in more detail what happened; is

 8     that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did this young man faint inside facility number 3?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And were you in a position to see if how many other people stayed

13     in the facility, according to information that you might have received?

14        A.   Well, there were two other people with him.  Although I spoke

15     with him, I didn't know him before, but his sister was married to a

16     neighbour of mine.

17        Q.   And these two men, did they also survive this tragic incident?

18        A.   They were unhurt.  They were in good condition, in a good state

19     of health.  But I don't know what happened to them later.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think you asked for 40 minutes

22     before the break, which means that you would have, not deducing any time

23     for the late start, that you would have another five to seven minutes.

24     And in view of the relevance, the level of relevance of some of the

25     earlier questions, the Chamber would like to keep you to that time

Page 2129

 1     estimate.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm going to stick

 3     to the time, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Sir, at one point in time, in late July 1992, you were

 5     transferred to Trnopolje with another group of prisoners.  I'm asking you

 6     this because I would like to ask you whether you know that after you left

 7     Keraterm was dismantled as a collection centre?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I didn't have any information as to whether

 9     anybody stayed in those rooms.  When we left, we were called out by name.

10     Some went to Omarska, some went to Trnopolje, so I really couldn't see

11     anymore if anybody stayed behind or not.  I actually boarded a bus that

12     was going to Trnopolje.  I don't know anything else.

13        Q.   And you stayed in Trnopolje for about 20 days.

14        A.   Yes.  Until the 21st of August more precisely.

15        Q.   Did your wife and children manage to leave Prijedor?

16        A.   Yes.  My wife and the children did leave, but not from Prijedor

17     but from Trnopolje in freight railway cars that would transport cattle

18     before that.

19        Q.   Did she manage to leave before you to the territory under the

20     control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21        A.   Yes, she did.

22        Q.   You reached the area of Travnik via Vlasic.  Am I correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And when you arrived, were you militarily engaged by Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina?

Page 2130

 1        A.   When I came to Travnik, I was very ill.  I couldn't walk.  I

 2     couldn't stand on my feet, on my legs.  I was exhausted, undernourished.

 3     I sought medical help which was not really readily available in Travnik.

 4     They were encircled.  They couldn't provide anything like that, so I had

 5     to ask for help outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I was not

 6     mobilised anywhere or -- nor did I wear a military uniform, as they say.

 7        Q.   Did the military authorities help you?  Did you leave Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina or did you remain in Bosnia and Herzegovina for some time?

 9        A.   Yes, they heeded my request.  I asked to go for medical treatment

10     in Croatia and that's where I was transferred, to Croatia for medical

11     treatment.

12        Q.   And were you militarily engaged in the territory of Croatia until

13     the end of the war at any point in time?

14        A.   No.  I spent a short time in Croatia, perhaps two weeks or so,

15     and then later, I went to Slovenia.  My brother came to get me, and then

16     my wife came to Slovenia to join me, and then I left farther away,

17     together with her.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And now I'm going to finish by --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, one of the previous answers of the

20     witness was:

21             "And I was not mobilised anywhere or -- nor did I wear a military

22     uniform, as they say."

23             That means not engaged in any army activities.  Why ask that

24     twice?  There's no need to do that.  Please put your last questions to

25     the witness.

Page 2131

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that question

 2     referred to the answer by the witness that he went to Croatia during the

 3     war, so I just wanted to deal with that question in line with the

 4     suggestions that I had.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness said "anywhere."

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

 8     Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             Mr. Traldi, any need to re-examine the witness?

11             MR. TRALDI:  Just very briefly, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And how much time would you need?  Because I'll

13     first check with my colleagues whether we have any additional questions.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have one or two questions for the witness.

16             And how much time would you need for re-examination?

17             MR. TRALDI:  I only have two questions, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Two questions only.  Yes.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Taci, I have two questions for you.

21             You repeatedly said that you had no knowledge after you had

22     returned to your place.  Now, in the proffer of testimony I read the

23     following:

24             "He heard some announcements on Radio Prijedor saying that the

25     population in Kozarac should surrender, that the Serbs were a peaceful

Page 2132

 1     people, that they should live together, and that the power should be

 2     turned over to the Serbs."

 3             That line suggests that you were able to listen to the radio.

 4     Because, earlier, when asked about rendering any arms, you said, Well, we

 5     had no contact whatsoever, we couldn't know.  Here in your proffer of

 6     evidence you say that you were listening to Prijedor Radio.  Could you

 7     explain.

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  When I said that I listened to the radio, I

 9     said that the children that were going to school in Prijedor, they would

10     go there.  The phones were working.  There was electricity when I arrived

11     from Croatia.  However, little by little everything was shutting down.

12     Information, local transport, the schools, the electricity, the water.

13     Everything was shut down.  After that, we didn't have any more

14     information or radio or anything like that.  We didn't get any

15     information or communication with Prijedor or from anybody else.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it changed over time?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  My next question - and also my last question - is

19     the following.  You say you observed from room number 2 what happened

20     outside not through a window but through the door through which you

21     entered and left.  Does that mean that the door in room 2 was ajar, that

22     you -- it was slightly open?  It was not locked?

23        A.   The door was not locked.  Afterwards, they placed a kind of iron

24     fencing there in place of a door.  But there was no door there, so I

25     could get near that opening and observe what was going on.

Page 2133

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say there was no door.  It was just an

 2     opening where a door was supposed to be.  Is that how I have to

 3     understand your testimony?

 4        A.   Yes.  There had been a door there before.  Then they took down

 5     that original door.  And then they welded some bars there so that we

 6     couldn't go out at night.  It was locked.  But we could get some air

 7     through that door.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And you saw the events through that -- those bars,

 9     if I -- is that how I have to understand your answer?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And room 3 was not treated in a similar way.  There

12     still was a door, if -- did I understand you correctly?

13        A.   Yes.  Room 3 did have a door.  I don't remember the colour or

14     anything like that now.  And that room was much smaller than room number

15     2.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

17             Mr. Traldi, if it's a matter of a couple of minutes, then

18     we'll ... and then we take a break after that.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, at temporary transcript page 30, you told Mr. Stojanovic

22     that "... only Muslim police remained ..." in the Kozarac police force.

23     Could you tell the Trial Chamber at about what time did the Kozarac

24     police become all Muslim?

25        A.   I couldn't tell you the exact time because I didn't have any

Page 2134

 1     contacts with the policemen.  I didn't have anything in common with them.

 2     I don't know how many of them there were.

 3             In any case, it was in my estimate that those who remained were

 4     Muslim police officers.  Then also some of them arrived from Prijedor

 5     because none of the Muslim policemen could remain in Prijedor, or in

 6     Kozarac.  So they all came to Kozarac.

 7        Q.   When you say "those who remained," sir, do you mean those who

 8     remained as of May 1992, as of the middle of May, as of June?  Can you

 9     estimate the time for us?

10        A.   I really couldn't tell you exactly, but it was when the children

11     stopped going to school, when the Serbian forces captured Prijedor, and

12     then they tried to get the people in Kozarac to surrender, to put up that

13     flag, and I think that already by that time, there were no other -- there

14     were no members from other ethnic groups in the police force anymore.

15        Q.   And, sir, at pages 42 and 43 of today's temporary transcript,

16     Mr. Stojanovic asked you about Duca, Cupo, and Kajin.

17             At paragraph 9 of your statement, you say Kajin wore a camouflage

18     uniform.  Did you ever see Duca or Cupo wearing uniforms?

19        A.   Yes, I saw Cupo wearing the shirt from the uniform, but I did not

20     see Duca in a military uniform, no.  Meaning that he was wearing civilian

21     clothing.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That completes my

23     re-examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

25             I see, Mr. Stojanovic, that the questions by the Bench and in

Page 2135

 1     re-examination have triggered no need for further questions.

 2             Mr. Taci, this concludes, then, your evidence in this case.  I'd

 3     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for answering the

 4     questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties and by the

 5     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the

 6     usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break, and we resume at 10 minutes

10     past 1.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next

14     witness, which will be taken by whom?

15             MS. BIBLES:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Camille Bibles

16     will --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Bibles, so you will take the witness.

18             I think the witness could already be escorted close to the

19     courtroom, I would say.  Meanwhile, we'll deal with another matter; that

20     is, the administrative hearings as suggested by the Prosecution.

21             Mr. Lukic, last Friday you said, I think, that you are not

22     objecting but I left it open whether you wanted to make any further

23     submissions.  Now I do not know whether you wish to do so or not, or that

24     you say, Well, we just do not object.

25             MR. LUKIC:  On what, Your Honour?  [Overlapping speakers]

Page 2136

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] Administrative hearings on

 2     witness scheduling.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We don't object.  The only thing we wanted to raise

 4     right now, Your Honour, is that maybe we will not be able to tell

 5     Your Honours and the Prosecution the exact amount of time we need for the

 6     cross-examination at that moment since we would learn only then who would

 7     come.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that point.  And I don't think that that

 9     in itself is objecting against following the suggestion.

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

11             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.  And any information, however

12     imprecise, is better than what we're doing now, which is simply making

13     decisions based on no information.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the Chamber has no objection to

15     discussing upcoming scheduling issues, as suggested by the Prosecution,

16     but only so long as it does not interfere with finishing the testimony of

17     witnesses.  We would not like to have the witness stay for a weekend

18     because we so urgently had to discuss the scheduling issues.  And the

19     Chamber expects the Prosecution therefore to proactively to raise any

20     scheduling matters at an appropriate time, and certainly the end of a

21     cyclus would certainly be one of those moments.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could make a suggestion.  If

23     before Friday Mr. Lukic were able to fill in the estimates for the first

24     four weeks when we return, the hearing could actually be quite brief,

25     Your Honour.

Page 2137

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to look at that.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We'll do our best.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, just briefly, there is an issue to

 5     raise with the Trial Chamber prior to the witness's actual arrival.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would like to address the attention

 8     that this Trial Chamber has brought to this next witness's testimony, and

 9     I believe it was placed on the record on the 9th of July of this year.

10             Your Honour, we do intend to rely very heavily on adjudicated

11     facts 460, 462 to 465, 468 to 476 with respect to Manjaca in leading this

12     witness's testimony.  We will also rely heavily on adjudicated facts 1141

13     through 1144 and 1146 with respect to it the takeover the Sanski Most.

14     As well, to some degree, the adjudicated facts in 1165 to 1169, and

15     certainly with respect to 1190 and 1192.  However, as the Trial Chamber

16     has alluded, as part of our prosecutorial judgement, we do make an

17     evaluation of each witness and their evidence.  Now, in this --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MS. BIBLES:  In the case of this particular witness, after

20     reviewing the evidence and in consultation with Mr. Groome, we have

21     determined that there is some evidence that he has that we would lead in

22     full.  So unless there's a -- there are additional concerns from the

23     Trial Chamber, then we can go ahead and bring in Mr. Begic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When I make this observation, and I've done

25     that several times, if you say these are the adjudicated facts, we'd like

Page 2138

 1     to know, but nevertheless it remains the responsibility of the

 2     Prosecution to clearly define for itself what the matters are for which

 3     no evidence needs to be led, because the Chamber doesn't take

 4     responsibility for that.  The Chamber, at the very end, will just look at

 5     what was proven and, as far as adjudicated facts is concerned, apart from

 6     challenges, whether -- if you rely on the adjudicated fact it could not

 7     beyond what the adjudicated facts tell us.

 8             If that is clear, then if there's no other matter, the witness

 9     could be escorted into the courtroom.  Or is there?

10             MS. BIBLES:  No, that's it, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Begic, I take it.

14             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

15     solemn declaration.  I invite you to make that declaration, of which the

16     text will now be handed out to you by the usher.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I solemnly declare that

18     I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  RAJIF BEGIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Ms. Bibles:

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Begic.  Pleas be seated.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Begic, you will first be examined by Ms. Bibles.

25     Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.  You find her to your right.

Page 2139

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Begic.  Could you introduce yourself with

 4     your full name and your age, please.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.  My name is Rajif Begic.  I was born on 23rd

 6     September 1967.  So I'm 45.

 7        Q.   Do you also have a nickname?

 8        A.   Yes.  They call me Raho.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us which village and municipality in which you

10     were born?

11        A.   Yes.  I was born and grew up in the village of Plevci, Sanski

12     Most municipality.

13        Q.   Could you briefly describe us the hamlet or the villages that are

14     in the area of Sanski Most where you lived?

15        A.   Yes.  Around Sanski Most, to the right of the river Sana, there

16     was Kljevci village, which is a large village with several hamlets in it;

17     such as Begici, Kenjari, Cosici, Stojnovci, and just after Kljevci came

18     Hrustovo village, Vrhpolje, Tomina river, Caplivo [phoen].

19             MS. BIBLES:  And Your Honours, if we could bring 65 ter 08755 to

20     our screens.

21        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review a map with the villages and

22     their ethnic composition in 1992 from Sanski Most?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry Madam Bibles, what's the 65 ter number?

24             MS. BIBLES:  08755.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 2140

 1             MS. BIBLES:

 2        Q.   Looking at the map that is on the screen in front of you, do you

 3     recognise this map?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's Sanski Most municipality.

 5        Q.   Does it fairly and accurately depict the villages of Sanski Most

 6     as they existed in 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And directing your attention to the lower right-hand portion of

 9     the map, do you see the area in which you lived?

10        A.   Yes.  Villages Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Begici, Kenjari.  That's the

11     area where I lived, in the lower right corner.

12             MS. BIBLES:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 08755.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             MR. LUKIC:  No objection.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08755 becomes Exhibit P162,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P162 is admitted into evidence.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   Could you describe for us in the time period before the conflict

20     in Bosnia what the relationships were like between Muslims and Serbs in

21     your area?

22        A.   Yes.  In the village of Kljevci and with other villages around

23     Kljevci, interpersonal relations were very good.  We grew up in villages

24     with a mixed population.  We went to school together.  We socialised

25     among ethnic communities, and before the war there had been no incidents

Page 2141

 1     on a nationalist grounds.

 2        Q.   What is the ethnicity of your godparents?

 3        A.   They are Serbs.

 4        Q.   And could you tell us who they are?

 5        A.   Yes.  Vid Krlic and Andza Krlic.  Our neighbours from Begici

 6     village.

 7        Q.   Did you have a close relationship with them up through 1992?

 8        A.   You could say so.  We were close.  We shared some agricultural

 9     machinery.  We owned them jointly.  We were friends.  They were my

10     godparents, my godmother -- my godmother cut my hair when I was born, and

11     according to our customs, thus, she same my godmother.

12        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention to May of 1992.

13             MS. BIBLES:  And Your Honours, I am going to be limiting my

14     questions in this regard in reliance on adjudicated facts 1141 to 1144.

15        Q.   In May of 1992, did you surrender any weapons?

16        A.   My neighbours from Begici village handed over some weapons.  I

17     didn't have any.

18        Q.   Were you able to hear the radio broadcasts directing Muslims to

19     surrender weapons?

20        A.   Yes.  Several days before the 25th of May, the local radio

21     broadcast that local villages, including Kljevci, should hand over any

22     weapons they had at the closest Serb check-point.

23        Q.   During any time in 1992, were you involved in any actions to

24     defend your village or any other territory?

25        A.   No.  There were no such actions.

Page 2142

 1        Q.   We're aware that your village was first attack in May of 1992.

 2     Can you tell us what date that was?

 3        A.   It was the 25th of May.

 4        Q.   Do you know which military unit controlled the area in which you

 5     lived?

 6        A.   It was a part of the 6th Krajina Brigade that was based in the

 7     primary school, the four-year school, in Kljevci.

 8        Q.   Do you know who the commander of that unit was in -- in May of

 9     1992?

10        A.   Yes.  The commander of that unit was Mile Mijatovic, and he once

11     visited us at the hamlet.  He introduced himself, so we knew who

12     commanded that unit.

13        Q.   Do you know approximately what date he came to your village?

14        A.   I can't tell you the exact date, but it was a couple of days

15     before the 25th.  Perhaps the 23rd or the 21st.

16        Q.   Can you tell us how he introduced himself to you and your family?

17        A.   Yes.  One day, accompanied by a soldier, both of them armed,

18     we -- they came to our house with the intention of meeting all the

19     residents of that village.  He said where he hailed from, whose son he

20     was, and we knew that, although he wasn't living in Kljevci by that time.

21     We knew his father.  And that conversation over coffee was not long.  He

22     told us a couple of things about the situation, and then he left.

23        Q.   Did he say what army he was a commander in?

24        A.   Yes.  He said he had a unit from the 6th Krajina Brigade that was

25     based at the school, which we had not known, and he said he was in charge

Page 2143

 1     of that part of Kljevci.

 2        Q.   Did he say if he was with the JNA or the VRS or what military

 3     organisation?

 4        A.   He did not tell us exactly the name of his unit.  He just said it

 5     was the 6th Krajina Brigade.  I did not hear him mention the VRS or the

 6     JNA.

 7        Q.   Do you know who the komandant for the 6th Krajina Brigade was in

 8     1992?

 9        A.   Yes.  The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade was Branko Basara.

10        Q.   And how is it that you know that?

11        A.   Well, after doing my military service, I was, myself, part of the

12     reserve force of the 6th Krajina Brigade.  We all knew that, as far as

13     the reserve force is concerned, our area was covered by the 6th Krajina

14     Brigade.

15             Just before the events, a month or two before, Branko Basara

16     attended a meeting in Tomina, where he met locals from the surrounding

17     villages, where he introduced himself.  He was wearing a uniform.  And

18     the issue came up of where to put up some units and where to deploy some

19     tanks and howitzers in the area, so that's when I met him.

20        Q.   And I don't believe that I've asked you this yet, but what is

21     your ethnicity?

22        A.   I'm a Muslim, a Bosniak.

23        Q.   At the end of May 1992, did you come to know a soldier whose last

24     name was Palija?

25        A.   Yes.  I met a soldier by the name of Jadranko Palija.

Page 2144

 1        Q.   What was your understanding as to where he came from?

 2        A.   I did not know that soldier, Jadranko Palija before.  Once,

 3     driving my tractor by a Serb check-point, I was stopped by my Serb

 4     neighbours, and Jadranko Palija was among them.

 5             They talked to me briefly while he searched the tractor checking

 6     whether I had any weapons in there, and I heard someone address him as

 7     Jadranko.  At that time I did not know his last name, Palija.

 8        Q.   And did you later come to understand where he had come from?

 9        A.   Yes, I think it was already on the next day when my godmother

10     Andza, passing by, stopped at our house for coffee and he said that a

11     soldier was visiting her house by the name of Jadranko Palija and that

12     perhaps he had a thing for her daughter.  So that's the first time I

13     heard his last name.

14        Q.   Is that how you learned where he came from?

15        A.   Yes.  When she was talking about him, she stressed that he lived

16     in Croatia, and as the war was moving to Bosnia, he fled to Bosnia and he

17     was assigned to be in that locality.

18        Q.   And by that locality, was that your area?

19        A.   Yes.  I mean that locality.  More precisely, that first

20     check-point that was put up next to Begici village.  He was assigned to

21     man that check-point.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you for a moment for the clarity

23     of the record.  You told us about the check-point where you were stopped

24     with your tractor and somebody addressed this man we were -- you were

25     talking about as Jadranko without mentioning his family name.  Is that

Page 2145

 1     correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And then, in that case, on page 62, line 17, the

 4     second word should be deleted or redacted.  Only Jadranko was mentioned.

 5             You learned his last name only later.  Is that correct.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  For the completeness of the record, I notice that on

 9     the one screen the numbering of the lines is slightly different from the

10     other one, but I think it is clear it is the words before it says "at

11     that time I did not know his last name, Palija."

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

14        Q.   The -- can you describe for us what the soldier, Palija's

15     attitude towards the Muslims in the area was?

16        A.   Well, I did not see that soldier again after those days.  That

17     was my first meeting with him, and then the next time I saw him it was

18     already 31st of May, so I don't know if he had had any contacts in the

19     meantime with my neighbours.

20        Q.   During the time-period from the 25th of May to the 31st of May,

21     can you describe what life was like for you and your family?

22        A.   Yes.  After this first incursion of soldiers into our hamlet,

23     until the 31st, we lived in fear.  On the 25th, when they entered the

24     hamlet, they mistreated and beat people.  And in the days that followed,

25     fear reigned, and we were completely at a loss what to expect.

Page 2146

 1        Q.   Where were you when your village was attacked on the 25th of

 2     May of 1992?

 3        A.   On the 25th, when the troops were coming into our hamlet, I was

 4     outside my house with my brother.  When they came by, it was in fact a

 5     young man who was running ahead of them, saying, The army is coming.  My

 6     junior -- my younger brother, Munib Begic, and I ran to the river to hide

 7     there, not far from the house.

 8        Q.   Were you able to see or hear what was going on with your village?

 9        A.   We were not able to see, but we could hear everything.  Perhaps

10     not every word, but we could clearly hear what was going on around our

11     houses.

12        Q.   Can you describe just briefly what it was that you were able to

13     hear from the river?

14        A.   Yes.  We could hear our old aunt trying to defend her old

15     husband, Huso, who was 75.  And next to them we could hear small children

16     crying.  We could hear soldiers shouting, Get into the garage.  We're

17     going to kill you now.  There were many voices at the same time.

18        Q.   How long did the attack last?

19        A.   Not long.  Not longer than an hour.

20        Q.   I'm now directing your attention to the 31st of May of 1992.  I'd

21     like you to think about the soldiers that entered your village on that

22     date.  Were there soldiers that you did not know?

23        A.   On that day, the 31st of May, I recognised some of the soldiers

24     whom I had known from before, from the town and school, but most of them

25     were not familiar.

Page 2147

 1        Q.   Can you describe for us whether you knew the soldier who ordered

 2     the separation of women and children from the men?

 3        A.   No, I did not know that soldier.  All I could see was that he was

 4     in command of that unit that was in Begici on that day.

 5        Q.   Was there any fighting or resistance from the Muslims in the

 6     community?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Can you describe what happened to the men in your community as

 9     the separations occurred?

10        A.   Yes.  When the locals from Dizdarevici and Donji Begici were

11     brought to us, I lived in Gornji Begici, the men who were found in the

12     basement of Ekrem Begic were lined up outside the house.  As we were

13     coming to Gornji Begici, it was ordered already that women and children

14     should go to one side, whereas the men should form a column to join the

15     men who had already been lined up.

16        Q.   And did the men do as they were told?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, we did as we were told.  We had to line up.

18        Q.   And can you describe how the column was organised, the column of

19     men?

20        A.   After separating the women and children, and even one underaged

21     boy managed to join the group of women and children with his mother, they

22     lined us up in a column two by two and told us to go towards Vinogradi.

23        Q.   How many armed soldiers escorted your group of men away?

24        A.   Our column that was going towards Vrhpolje was escorted by many

25     armed soldiers.

Page 2148

 1        Q.   Do you know who the leader of that group of soldiers was?

 2        A.   The one who was in charge of escorting the column was

 3     Jadranko Palija.

 4        Q.   At that time did you know any of the other soldiers that he was

 5     commanding?

 6        A.   Yes.  I recognised some of the young men who were from

 7     Sanski Most, from the town.

 8        Q.   Could you describe for us if you knew where you were going?

 9        A.   Yes.  While we were still standing in Begici, the officer who was

10     in charge of those soldiers on that day said the soldiers would escort us

11     to the bridge over the Sana river where buses were waiting for us.

12        Q.   Approximately how far did you -- would you go from Begici to the

13     bridge?

14        A.   At least 1 kilometre.

15        Q.   Can you describe for us the ages in your group, the ages of the

16     Muslim men?  Just roughly.  The youngest and the oldest.

17        A.   Yes.  The youngest in the group was called Enes Dizdarevic, and

18     at the time he was between 15 and 16 years old.  Edin Begic, my youngest

19     brother, had been put aside with his mother because he seemed younger but

20     he was the same age.  The oldest one was Sacir Begic who was over 70

21     years old, and there was Miralem Celic [as interpreted], who was perhaps

22     a year or two younger.

23        Q.   As your group walked towards the bridge, did you go by some other

24     soldiers?

25        A.   Yes.  Not far from the Begici hamlet that we were moving away

Page 2149

 1     from, we came across a group of soldiers who were resting by the road

 2     that we were travelling down.

 3        Q.   And how did they react to your group?

 4        A.   Jadranko stopped our group there, and then these soldiers, about

 5     30 of them, insulted us, cursed us.  Someone even said that we should be

 6     killed there on the spot.  But they did not beat us on that occasion.

 7        Q.   And how long did you stay in that location?

 8        A.   Not long.  A few minutes.

 9        Q.   And which direction did you go from there?

10        A.   After that, Jadranko Palija ordered the column to move on in the

11     same direction, towards Vinogradine about 100 metres away from that road.

12        Q.   Were you able to move at the pace that you wanted to -- to move,

13     or you and the group?

14        A.   Yes.  We were ordered to maintain a steady pace, although we had

15     to bring these old people along with us too.  Because at one point in

16     time, Jadranko Palija said that if someone shooted at the column from the

17     surrounding villages, they would all kill us.  And that is why it was

18     necessary for us to move rapidly.  Some were not able to keep up and we

19     therefore had to help them.

20        Q.   All right.  Who had the most trouble keeping up?

21        A.   Sacir Begic and Miralem Ceric found it most difficult.  Miralem,

22     after about 100 metres, had pain and felt pain in the heart and his son

23     tried to take care of him.  We had to carry Sacir Begic.  Irfan and

24     myself grabbed him by the arms and helped him, while the other people in

25     the column were able to move ahead on their own.

Page 2150

 1        Q.   While you were moving towards the bridge in this column, could

 2     you describe for us what was happening in the area?

 3        A.   Yes.  As we approached the Hrustovac [as interpreted] station

 4     where there were a number of houses, we noticed that all the houses were

 5     on fire.  You could see a weapon firing.  You could see soldiers sitting

 6     by the road.  Some were cursing.  Others drinking.  Some were stealing

 7     cars or items from cars.  It was ugly.  An ugly scene.

 8        Q.   How many smaller bridges did you cross before getting to Vrhpolje

 9     bridge?

10        A.   Yes, as we were approaching Hrustovac station there was a small

11     bridge over the Glibaja river, that we then had to cross a bridge over

12     the Sanica river.  That was in Hrustovo station.  And then we headed onto

13     this other bridge.

14        Q.   In that area that you've just described --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Near Vrhpolje, interpreter's correction.  A

16     bridge near Vrhpolje.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

18        Q.   After crossing that area, could you describe for us how

19     Miralem Ceric was doing?

20        A.   Yes, at that point in time, when we arrived at Hrustovac station

21     we could see that Miralem Ceric was out of breath, and he was breathing

22     with difficulty and it would have been good for him to have a break.  He

23     was breathing with difficulty and moving with difficulty, although his

24     son Enes was helping him to -- to walk.

25        Q.   Can you tell the Judges what, if anything, Palija did as a result

Page 2151

 1     of his difficulties?

 2        A.   Yes.  At one point in time when we were crossing the -- a bridge

 3     over the Sanica river, right by the bridge on the left-hand side there

 4     was a slaughter-house, an abandoned slaughter-house.  At that point in

 5     time, as we were passing by that slaughter-house, Jadranko took

 6     Miralem Ceric and his son Enes aside.  In fact, he took them into that

 7     old slaughter-house.  When the three of them entered the slaughter-house,

 8     I saw Jadranko Palija taking out his pistol and following them inside, in

 9     fact.  I then heard a shot, and I saw Jadranko Palija coming out of the

10     slaughter-house and putting the pistol back into its holster.  He then

11     joined the column which hadn't stopped advancing.

12        Q.   Did you ever see either of these two men again?

13        A.   No, I didn't.

14        Q.   Did Palija take anyone else from the column after that?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move to that question.  May I ask you

16     to clarify.  Sorry.  You said you heard a shot.  One shot or more shots?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, at that point in time,

18     all the houses in the vicinity of the bridge were on fire and the bricks

19     were actually cracking.  I heard a shot which was a pistol shot.  I'm

20     sure that I heard one shot.  I didn't hear any other shots.  Perhaps

21     because of the noise being produced by the houses that were on fire and

22     by the bricks that were cracking.  But I am certain that I heard one shot

23     being fired.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.

25             MS. BIBLES:

Page 2152

 1        Q.   Did Palija take anyone else from your column after that?

 2        A.   Yes.  The column continued towards the Vrhpolje bridge and then

 3     we had to get to the main road that was about 250 metres from that

 4     location.  And at the exit that leads to the main road, Jadranko took

 5     Ismet Kurbegovic out of the column.  He took him to the other side of the

 6     road and killed him.

 7        Q.   Did he -- did Palija say anything to Ismet before he killed him?

 8        A.   Yes.  Jadranko took him aside.  He pointed his gun at him, and he

 9     said, For the last time, I'm asking you, where is your sniper?  Ismet

10     said he did not have a sniper rifle of any kind, and this man then shot

11     him.

12        Q.   Did you actually see the shot?

13        A.   Yes, I did.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Madam Bibles.  The shot or the shooting?

15             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.  I will rephrase that to the shooting.

16        Q.   Did you see the shooting?

17        A.   He killed him with one shot from the gun.

18        Q.   Was this the same pistol that you saw him holster a few minutes

19     before?

20        A.   Yes, it was the same one.

21        Q.   Did Palija come back to your group at that point?

22        A.   Yes.  This all happened quite quickly.  The column hadn't really

23     moved very far, and you could see him walking -- walking by with the

24     column.

25        Q.   And what happened to Ismet's body?

Page 2153

 1        A.   His body remained lying by the road, by a stop sign.  His body

 2     remained lying there.

 3        Q.   When you came within 10 metres of the Vrhpolje bridge, could you

 4     see who was on the bridge?

 5        A.   Yes.  From a certain distance you could see that there were a lot

 6     of soldiers on the bridge.  It wasn't really possible to see them clearly

 7     until we had actually reached the bridge.  Having reached the bridge, I

 8     could recognise some of those soldiers.

 9        Q.   Were there buses on the bridge when you could first see it?

10        A.   I didn't see any.

11        Q.   As you got very close to the bridge, did any vehicles come

12     alongside your group?

13        A.   Yes.  At one point in time, just before we reached the bridge, a

14     military van, a small military van, arrived from the direction of Kljuc.

15     There was one driver in it.  Though the van was advancing at the same

16     speed as the column, and then the driver in the van told Jadranko Palija

17     to get in and sit down to his right.

18        Q.   Can you describe what happened after he got in the vehicle?

19        A.   After Jadranko Palija got into the van, the column continued

20     advancing on the left-hand side, and at that point in time Irfan Begic

21     and myself were still helping Sacir Begic to walk.  Elmedin Begic

22     instinctively grabbed Sacir Begic to help him move, and then Jadranko

23     Palija who was sitting in the van called out to Irfan Begic and told him

24     to move in front of the van and to go to the other side, the side on

25     which he was sitting.  When Irfan Begic crossed over to the other side of

Page 2154

 1     the road in front of the van, I had a look to the right, to my side, and

 2     I saw that Jadranko Palija didn't say anything, but when Irfan arrived by

 3     the window, he shot him from his pistol.

 4        Q.   At that point, what were you thinking?

 5        A.   Yes, we were terrified by what we had seen.  Appalled by it.  We

 6     had to go to the bridge.  We had to continue to the bridge.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, could exhibit 65 ter 06367 be brought

 8     to our screens.

 9        Q.   Do you recognise what is depicted in this photograph?

10        A.   Yes.  The photograph depicts the Vrhpolje bridge.

11        Q.   Is this the same bridge that was there on the 31st of May of

12     1992?

13        A.   Yes, it's the same bridge.

14        Q.   Is it -- and could you tell us the name of the river that we see

15     running under the bridge?

16        A.   Yes, that is the river Sana.

17        Q.   At -- I'm going to ask you to make some markings on this

18     photograph but not just yet, and I would ask for the colour red to be

19     used with the pen.

20             Do you know which direction this river flows?

21        A.   Yes.  From left to right.  If you look at the photograph, it's

22     from left to right.

23        Q.   I'm going to ask that you take the pen and draw a small -- I'm

24     sorry, just a moment.  I'm going to ask that you draw a small arrow on

25     the river indicating which direction of river flows, please.

Page 2155

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher otherwise assist the witness in

 3     using the eraser as well.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Does the river flow from the left on the picture to

 6     the right.  Is that -- is it possible to --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  [Marks]

 8             MS. BIBLES:

 9        Q.   Could you --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, before we continue, 65 ter 06367 is

11     described on our list as photo of the Vrhpolje bridge annotated by the

12     witness, but are there any previous annotations or is it?

13             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, there do not appear to be any

14     annotations.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. BIBLES:  So we will need to correct that description of the

17     photograph.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Once it is admitted, if you tender it, then,

19     of course, there are annotations.  So perhaps you have anticipated on

20     what might happen in court.  But I was just wondering whether I missed

21     something.  But let's proceed.  I've heard your answer.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Do you see the road that you entered the bridge from?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Could you please take the pen and mark a number 1 on the road

Page 2156

 1     that will show us the direction that you came from?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, it's -- apart from you do not come from

 4     a direction but you come from a place and then move in a certain

 5     direction.

 6        Q.   Do I understand that, looking at this picture, you came to the

 7     bridge from the left on the road, as we see it, moving to the right and

 8     thus arriving at the bridge?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

11             MS. BIBLES:

12        Q.   And I'll have you go ahead and just put the pen down for a

13     moment.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MS. BIBLES:

16        Q.   As your column came onto the bridge, could you tell us what

17     happened?

18        A.   Yes.  As we approached the bridge, we were going down the left

19     side of the road.  And when we reached the bridge, we were ordered to go

20     to the right part of the fence on the bridge and to line up in a column,

21     one by one, in the middle of the bridge at that point.

22        Q.   Would this have been on the up-river side of the bridge?

23        A.   Yes, the right side of the bridge.

24        Q.   As you -- after you lined up, what did they have you do next?

25        A.   After we had lined up, we were ordered to take our shoes off and

Page 2157

 1     our clothes.  Not all of our clothes, but most of them.  And that's what

 2     we did.

 3        Q.   All right.  And could you describe for us, as you did that, what

 4     the soldiers were doing?

 5        A.   Yes.  As soon as we started approaching the bridge, they started

 6     cursing and maltreating us.  And then when all the people had taken their

 7     clothes off, one or two soldiers searched the people who were lined up

 8     there.  They asked us whether we had any money on us or any weapons, and

 9     they asked us to display what we had, if we had anything, and then they

10     started beating certain people, certain individuals, on the bridge.

11        Q.   When you finished -- which clothing did you take off?

12        A.   I took off my trousers, my shoes, some remained in their

13     trousers.  Some didn't take their shoes off.  Well, in fact, everyone

14     took their shoes off.  But, on the whole, there were a lot of clothes

15     piled up on the bridge.  Some would remain wearing two T-shirts, two

16     shirts.  They didn't order us to take everything off.

17        Q.   And what were you still wearing?

18        A.   I had a short white T-shirt.

19        Q.   As the beatings were happening, did someone start to talk about

20     going off the bridge?

21        A.   No.  No.

22        Q.   Could you describe for us what happened after the beatings

23     started?

24        A.   Yes.  They were beating Hakija Begic, Mile Begic at the time.

25     They were also beating Fuad Begic.  And then at one point in time they

Page 2158

 1     started beating everyone.  So, on the whole, everyone was beaten.

 2        Q.   Did they say anything to you as to what was going to happen to

 3     you?

 4        A.   Yes.  While this beating and cursing and -- was going on, while

 5     they were insulting us, Kaurin, Nenad, Nenad Kaurin, said aloud that they

 6     had to kill 70 Muslims on that day because seven Serbian soldiers had

 7     been killed during that period in that area.

 8        Q.   What were you thinking at that point in time?

 9        A.   We were frightened.  We had been beaten up.  It was cold.  We

10     were no longer thinking about buses arriving there.  We were just waiting

11     to see what the fate of the group would be.  We'd been abandoned to our

12     fate.

13        Q.   All right.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, having just glanced at the time, I'm

16     wondering if this would be a point at which we should take a break for

17     the day.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you think this is a suitable moment.  I take

19     it, then, that the next line of questions would take more than the two or

20     three minutes we have left.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, do you intend to have more markings?

23     Because there's a bit of a problem if we adjourn for the day, that we

24     can't keep it as it is, the photograph of the bridge.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour, I would tender exhibit 65 ter

Page 2159

 1     06367.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is now a photograph of Vrhpolje bridge marked

 3     by the witnesses, isn't it.

 4             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06367 as marked by the witness in court

 6     becomes Exhibit P163, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             And P163 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Mr. Begic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

10     But before you leave, I'd like to instruct you that should not speak with

11     anyone or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

12     testimony, whether that is your testimony as you have given it today or

13     whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.

14             Is that clear to you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please follow the usher.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

20     Tuesday, the 4th of September, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

21     courtroom, I.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

23                           to be resumed on Tuesday, the 4th day of

24                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.