1 Thursday, 6 September 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Groome, the Chamber was informed that you'd like to raise a
11 preliminary matter.
12 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. Could I do so in private
13 session, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 2334-2337 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how much more
19 time you would need for cross-examination of the present witness?
20 MR. LUKIC: I will -- I will finish in the envisaged time of two
21 and a half hours. So I consider that I spent half an hour, and I need
22 two more hours. Although I spent a bit less.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would be somewhere in the second --
24 let me see. You spent half an hour. Yes, that would bring us either at
25 the end of the second part of the morning session or the beginning of the
2 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the authorisation you have asked for
4 Mr. Ivetic. The Defence has submitted that due to the last-minute
5 changes in the order of this week's witnesses, it requests that
6 Mr. Ivetic be granted authorisation to examine Witness RM032. The
7 Chamber grants this request.
8 The Defence further reminded the Chamber of its pending
9 application for a standing authorisation for Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Petrusic,
10 who have not been assigned as counsel for Mr. Mladic, to question
11 witnesses and makes submissions before the Chamber, and that request ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Defence's request for such a standing
14 order which would not only deal with questioning witnesses but also
15 making submissions before the Chamber, we are thinking about that and
16 that will be addressed by the Chamber in the very near future.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
20 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Atlija. Please be seated.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Atlija, I would like to remind you that you're
25 still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning
1 of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
2 nothing but the truth. And you'll now be further cross-examined by
3 Mr. Lukic.
4 WITNESS: IVO ATLIJA [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Atlija, from me too.
8 A. Good morning, Mr. Lukic.
9 Q. May I ask you to cast your mind back to 1983 when you were doing
10 your military service, when you said you were a military policeman. In
11 which barracks in Skopje did you serve?
12 A. I did my military service at the barracks that was then called
13 Marsal Tito after initial training as a signalsman, but after the
14 training was finished, I was moved to the barracks and I worked as a
15 receptionist, checking entries and exits from the barracks.
16 Q. At the time, did you take part in manoeuvres that were called
17 Krivljak [phoen] that took part in 1983 in that area?
18 A. I took part in a large manoeuvre. I'm no longer sure what it was
19 called, but I think it was the name of those hills or mountains where the
20 drill took place.
21 Q. That was a manoeuvre using live ammunition; can you remember?
22 A. Whether it was with live ammunition, I don't know. At least as
23 far as infantry weapons were concerned. But we were able to observe the
24 action from some aircraft, and what I could see it was live ammunition.
25 The explosions looked very real.
1 Q. At the time as a military policeman, were you, in fact, acting as
2 security for the leaders of those manoeuvres, or what was your role?
3 A. It was not my immediate task to provide security for anybody, but
4 together with a couple of my fellow soldiers at the time, I was in the
5 vicinity of the seats where the foreign military observers were.
6 Q. Thank you. We will now return to 1992. Paragraphs, in your
7 statement, 16 and 17.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up, in e-court, P168.
9 We need paragraphs 16 and 17. In B/C/S, it should be page 5.
10 Q. In any case, I will read out the parts I'm interested in. You
11 say early in May 1992, several hundred Muslim women and children from
12 those villages came to find shelter in Brisevo. They stayed a few days,
13 after which a number of them returned to their villages and others went
14 to Sanski Most.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. May I ask you first about the time-frame. Do you think perhaps
17 it was the end of May, or, if, as you say, it was early May, tell us from
18 which villages did these people arrive in early May?
19 A. I think the first ones who came were from Agici village. But
20 there were few of them.
21 Q. So what time of May would that be?
22 A. I'm no longer sure. The beginning or the middle. It was a long
23 time ago. I'm no longer sure.
24 Q. All right. Thank you. We will now move to paragraph 18. There,
25 you begin to speak about Hambarine and the attack on Hambarine. You say
1 that Serb patrol consisted of several drunken young men who stopped in
2 Hambarine and started to shoot. First of all, how do you know it was a
3 Serb patrol? How were you able to determine that?
4 A. That's the information we received from people in Hambarine.
5 Q. Is it the case that Muslim forces in Hambarine set up a
6 check-point, both at the entry and at the exit from the village?
7 A. Yes. We were told they had a check-point there. However, at the
8 time I did not travel through Hambarine. I didn't pass through. But
9 people from Hambarine told us they had set up check-points manned by
10 armed men.
11 Q. Do you know that, in fact, there were two Croats and four Serbs
12 in the car?
13 A. I learned later that two of those people in the car were ethnic
15 Q. Do you know that the Muslims manning the check-point were armed -
16 did you perhaps learn that later? - and that, among other things, that
17 they had one machine-gun, M4?
18 A. I heard they were armed. Which weapons they had, I'm not sure,
19 but I also heard that on that occasion they were shooting, an exchange of
20 fire between the people in the car and the armed Muslims at the
21 check-point. However, who started shooting first is in issue. People
22 from Hambarine say that it was the Serbs in the car who started shooting
23 first, but if you talk to members of the Serb units, they say that the
24 Muslims started shooting first. Which version is correct somebody else
25 must decide.
1 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I expect from you, to tell us
2 only what you know. Did you hear from those Muslims from Hambarine
3 whether somebody was injured on that occasion?
4 A. We heard some people were wounded. It was also said that one or
5 two people were killed. Now how much truth there is in it, I don't know.
6 Q. You mean among Serbs or Muslims?
7 A. On both sides. Now how many on each side, wounded and killed, I
8 don't know.
9 Q. Do you know that Aziz Aliskovic, who was a member of the group
10 manning the check-point, had asked those soldiers to turn over their
12 A. What exactly passed at the check-point, what Aziz or somebody
13 else asked the soldiers to do or what they asked the crew manning the
14 check-point, I don't know. I'm not familiar with the details of their
15 exchange or their quarrel.
16 Q. Now you say women, children, and old men reached Brisevo.
17 A. Yes, that is true.
18 Q. Is it true -- or, actually, did you hear at the time that the
19 Serb authorities called upon civilians to leave Hambarine so that they
20 could arrest the attackers, the attackers against the automobile that was
21 transferring the soldiers?
22 A. On Radio Prijedor I heard this ultimatum several times issued to
23 Hambarine by the Serb Crisis Staff from Prijedor. As far as I know, they
24 were asking to have Aziz Aliskovic handed over - I remember the name
25 because I knew him personally - and also some other individuals. If not,
1 they would come within, I don't know, two or three days, I cannot say
2 exactly now. Unless these requirements are met, there would be a
3 military attack against Hambarine which is, indeed, what happened.
4 Q. On that occasion, military-aged men did not get to your village;
6 A. It is true that there were very few of them. There were some,
7 but very, very few.
8 Q. Do you know that later armed units from Hambarine withdrew into
9 the forest of Kurevo that is near your village?
10 A. I know that, at the time, there were people who were armed in
11 Kurevo forest. I don't know whether these were exactly the people from
12 Hambarine or from some other villages. I cannot say. I also know that
13 Serb forces, several times, went out to cleanse, quote/unquote, Kurevo.
14 Q. Thank you. You went -- you said that the Serb forces went out to
15 cleanse Kurevo. Do you know that this forest, Kurevo, was a location
16 from which Serb forces were attacked in that area?
17 A. From Brisevo several times, we heard gun-fire from that
18 direction. But we could not see or assess who was attacking who, whether
19 they were attacking the Serb forces or whether the Serb forces were
20 attacking them in Kurevo. But several times infantry fire was heard from
21 that area and also mortar fire every now and then.
22 Q. Is it correct that the Serbs tried to persuade women and children
23 and elderly men to return to Hambarine and that they did so through
24 delegates, if you will?
25 A. One delegation reached the school in Brisevo where there were
1 several women and children who had fled. They were trying to persuade
2 them to return to Hambarine, saying that nothing would happen to them.
3 However, later on, it is only fair to say that we heard from some of the
4 survivors that most of those who returned to Hambarine were abused,
5 killed, or taken to prison camps.
6 Q. Is it also correct that they were exchanged for arrested Serb
7 soldiers and civilians? Later.
8 A. Where and when they were exchanged, I don't know. I do know that
9 at the time, even in Ljubija, civilians were basically captured in the
10 street and taken into buses and trucks, and we heard that they were taken
11 somewhere for an exchange. When all of this was over, the information we
12 received was that this exchange took place somewhere around Travnik.
13 Now, who was exchanging who with who, I cannot say. I don't really know
14 about this.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly see 1D229. This is
16 a page from the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial dated the 18th of October, 2010,
17 and we need lines 1 and 2. It is 16093; that's the page reference.
18 Q. This is what you stated there. I'll read it in English so that
19 you get the right interpretation.
20 A. Thank you.
21 Q. [In English] "Subsequently, I heard that quite a few of them were
22 transported to Central Bosnia and exchanged for captured Serb soldiers or
24 [Interpretation] Do you remember now that that was your
25 testimony, that these persons were exchanged for captured Serb soldiers
1 or civilians?
2 A. I didn't say anything else in response to your previous question.
3 I actually said it was in the area of Travnik, and I see here now in the
4 English, in the English transcript of my testimony here in court, that it
5 also says that this took place somewhere around Travnik.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D168 back in
8 e-court now, and we'd like to have a look at paragraph 18.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: P168.
10 MR. LUKIC: What did I say?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: D168.
12 MR. LUKIC: P168.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Atlija, you'll see this on the screen now,
14 so I'd like to clarify this matter with you now. In the ultimatum, it
15 was stated that unless the perpetrators surrendered, the village would be
16 attacked and torched.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I have a problem with this word "torched." You say that that is
19 what the ultimatum said. I will tell you and show this to you that you
20 did not say this in other trials. Other witnesses also spoke to the
21 contrary: Nermin Karagic, for instance, on page 5290, on the 27th of
22 June, 2002; like Minka Cehajic, on page 3143, on the 15th of May, 2002.
23 Both in the Stakic case.
24 You also, in response to the Prosecutor, Ms. Korner's questions,
25 you said -- Ms. Korner, my colleague, asked you the following:
1 [In English] "Before the attack took place, did you hear anything
2 being said on the radio in respect of Hambarine?"
3 And your answer was:
4 "Before the attack, Radio Prijedor, for a number of hours,
5 broadcast the so-called ultimatum for a person called Aziz Aliskovic to
6 surrender. If he did not do so, Hambarine would be attacked."
7 [Interpretation] 55 -- 5556, actually, is the page reference.
8 Lines 7 through 11. The date is the 3rd of July, 2002, the trial date.
9 So you did not mention then that someone had threatened to burn
10 down Hambarine. This is what I'm going to ask you: Would you agree that
11 at that time your memory was better and that what you stated then would
12 be more correct?
13 A. That my memory was fresher in relation to what had happened is
14 quite likely. However, it is hard for me to remember each and every
15 detail, each and every word uttered in that ultimatum. And not only in
16 that ultimatum. This statement that I gave is a summary of another
17 statement, and I am answering, as I tried to provide the most important
18 information. I'm not an expert, though. It is for you to assess. You
19 know better what is relevant and what is not relevant. So, in the
20 future, if you think that something is more relevant, could you please
21 ask me more about it.
22 As for this that you're asking me about now, you're probably
23 right. That at that time my memory was better. However, I cannot recall
24 each and every word from that ultimatum, and I would not want to go into
25 that now, to assess whether a particular word had been uttered then or
1 not. Believe me, after 20 years, I'm not sure.
2 Q. Thank you. And I fully accept your explanation, and I
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just for me to be sure --
5 You're telling us now that whether the threat that Hambarine
6 would be torched, that you are not sure that that was part of that
7 ultimatum. Is that correctly understood?
8 Or do you tell us that you may not have given all the details in
9 the past, and that, thinking back of it now, that you do remember that
10 torching or burning down Hambarine after an attack was part of that
12 Could you tell us which of the two it is that your testimony
13 today is. And if you want me to summarise it again: The one option was:
14 It may that be burning down was not part of the ultimatum; the other
15 option was, thinking back, I remember that torching was part of the
17 Mr. Traldi you're on your feet.
18 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour. Just to note for the record that
19 the witness's statement is from 2000 and so this is information he's
20 given in the past. It, in fact, predates the Stakic testimony referred
21 to by Mr. Lukic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us which of the two is accurate.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, the one contained in
24 the statement is correct, that torching was mentioned. If I did not
25 mention that in response to Ms. Korner's question, perhaps it was because
1 at that moment I didn't think that mattered, or, as I've already said, at
2 each and every point in time, I cannot invariably recall each and every
3 word that had been uttered or that was broadcast on Radio Prijedor at the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you -- just to be sure, you say, I --
6 looking back now, without remembering the precise words spoken, I stick
7 to my statement of 2000, that part of the ultimatum was - apart from an
8 attack - also that Hambarine would then be torched. Is that correctly
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you understood that correctly.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Mr. Lukic, the questions about how fresh a memory of a person is,
13 in view of the observation made by Mr. Traldi, which is supported by the
14 date of a statement, may have confused the witness, and we should try to
15 avoid such confusion.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Obviously I made a mistake, because I thought that the statement
19 that you provided for this trial was given more recently, or, rather,
20 after the Stakic testimony. However, today, before I questioned you,
21 when you spoke about the ultimatum, you said only that the village would
22 be attacked. You did not mention that it would be torched as well. But
23 let's move on. Now I'd like to move on to paragraph 19. Tell us, how
24 far away is Hambarine from your village?
25 A. Do you mean as the crow flies or sort of normally?
1 Q. Both.
2 A. Well, if you take the road via Ljubija and then go to Hambarine,
3 it could be about 10 kilometres.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. However, from this hill from where we were watching the attack on
6 Hambarine, as the crow flies, it's considerably less because it's hilly
7 terrain. If you take the road, there are a lot of curves, but if you
8 look as the crow flies from one hilltop to another, it's not that far
10 Q. Approximately how much is it?
11 A. Well, my estimate would be, say, 4 or 5 kilometres.
12 Q. All right. You say that you watched the fighting in Hambarine.
13 How was it that you were watching this?
14 A. Together with Milan Buzuka [as interpreted] I went to a hill that
15 is close to that house. If you remember yesterday, you asked me about
16 Zoran Radulovic, a person who had been killed.
17 Q. Thank you. Sorry I actually did not put the question properly.
18 A. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Did you have any optical equipment or were you watching all of
20 this with the naked eye?
21 A. With the naked eye. And also we had hunting binoculars.
22 Q. Well, you say that 1.000 to 1.500 soldiers took part in the
23 attack against Hambarine. So you were referring to the Serb side; right?
24 A. That's what I meant. And this is a free estimate. As for the
25 exact figure, of course, I cannot say.
1 Q. You said further down in paragraph 4 when you explain your
2 statement, at the very end, you said that the brigade that was in
3 Prijedor, the 43rd, had about 3.500 men, but you said that that is based
4 on your knowledge from the previous period. Can we conclude that you do
5 not actually know the manpower level of the 43rd Brigade that was
6 stationed in Prijedor at the time?
7 A. You're right on that. I think that I said even then that this
8 was an estimate. And I said that to one of the Judges who asked me about
9 this, How come I knew the number, and I said then that it was an
10 estimate, and that it is based on my knowledge while I still served in
11 the former JNA. I remembered how many battalions there were in a brigade
12 and how many platoons in a battalion, and so on. But as for the actual
13 manpower level of that brigade at that point in time, of course I
14 couldn't know exactly what it was.
15 Q. Thank you. Also you know, and you've pointed that out yourself
16 in paragraph 41 of your statement, that at the time most of the members
17 of the brigade were at the front line in Croatia; rather, in Pakrac.
18 Part of them were in Posavina and others in Central Bosnia. Is that
19 correct? You did know about that.
20 A. That soldiers from that brigade were sent to those theatres of
21 war, we knew that. But also they came back. They went there and
22 rotated. They went in shifts. The problem for us was when they were
23 returning because they were angry because of their losses or -- I don't
24 know what. And it was on those occasions that incidents occurred.
25 Q. You go on to say in the same paragraph that you don't know
1 whether soldiers or paramilitaries were involved in this operation but
2 that you saw that some soldiers were wearing green-grey uniforms.
3 A. Yes. Those were the uniforms of the former JNA.
4 Q. Is it true that all men who had served in the army and reported
5 to their military department received such a uniform to keep it at home.
6 Before every military exercise, we did not go each time to get a uniform.
7 A. It's true we received uniforms; but it's also true we had to
8 return them.
9 Q. When did you have to return yours?
10 A. I cannot give you the exact date now, but it could have been in
11 1990 or 1991.
12 Q. Is it true that at that time everyone was wearing a uniform,
13 among Serbs, even those who did not belong to any unit?
14 A. It's true that most Serbs at the time were wearing uniforms, full
15 uniforms, or parts of them, and it's also true that most of them were
17 Q. Do you know that it was also possible to buy a uniform at the
18 market in Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia alike?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- the answer to your last question deals with
22 Serbs; whereas, I understood your question not to be limited to Serbs,
23 and therefore I wondered whether you would like to have a complete answer
24 to your question, or I may have misunderstood your question.
25 MR. LUKIC: The witness answered correctly. I asked him about
1 the Serbs only. I don't know if it's lost in the translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, amongst -- no, no. I see it. I made a mistake.
3 I apologise for that.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I asked you if you knew, if you know today or you knew then, that
6 it was possible to buy a uniform at the market in Bosnia, Croatia, in
7 Serbia alike? Of course you don't know about Serbia, but you know about
8 Bosnia and Croatia.
9 A. I believe you that a uniform could be bought and it's not the
10 only thing that could be bought.
11 Q. Weapons, too, could be bought; right?
12 A. Where and for how much weapons could be bought, I don't know
13 because I was not interested and never inquired. But uniforms and parts
14 of uniforms could be seen on people and at markets even before the
15 conflict broke out. That's true.
16 Q. Now I'd like to move to paragraph 23.
17 You mention Carakovo and Rizvanovici. Would you agree with me
18 that the fighting from Hambarine spread in that direction, in fact, that
19 military activities and fighting from Hambarine moved to Carakovo and
21 A. Whether the operations just moved there or it was an organised
22 attack against Carakovo and Rizvanovici, I cannot tell you. I can only
23 tell you what is stated here, that we were not able to see the activity
24 itself. We could only hear explosions and shooting and we could see
25 smoke coming from the burning houses. Not more than that.
1 Q. Let us then deal with the geography of it. Is Carakovo and
2 Rizvanovici close to Hambarine?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move to paragraph 24. You say
5 Kozarac was attacked.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell us now how far is Kozarac from your village?
8 A. The distance to Kozarac is, in any case, much larger than to
9 Hambarine, so we could only see explosions, we could see the burning
10 houses, we could hear the shooting very well. But the moving of the
11 lines or the movements of soldiers or civilians could not be observed
12 from Brisevo.
13 Q. Thank you. At that time did you know, or did you learn later,
14 that the military column moving through Kozarac was attacked and the
15 first bullet killed the soldier driving the truck in that column?
16 A. What exactly occurred at that time in Kozarac, that there were
17 incidents while the military column was moving through Kozarac? I heard
18 that. But, again, you hear different versions from different people. So
19 I would not go into commenting which version is correct, whether one side
20 or the other side started shooting first, I really don't know.
21 Q. Very well. Were you able to see, to notice, that the fighting in
22 Kozarac went on for seven or eight days?
23 A. We were able to see the soldiers, and we could see the burning
24 houses, and we heard the shooting, but how many days it lasted, I don't
25 know. Certainly longer than three, four days.
1 Q. In this regard, although you didn't mention it in the statement,
2 what do you know about the attack of Muslim forces on Prijedor on the
3 30th of May, 1992?
4 A. On that day from Brisevo we could only hear sporadic fire from
5 the direction of Prijedor, and we learnt later that a small group or a
6 larger group - I don't know - had tried in Prijedor to, again it depends
7 from which side you're looking, liberate one or several neighbourhoods of
8 Prijedor. However, they were crushed by the local Serb units.
9 Q. Thank you. We will now skip a bit and move to paragraph 36. You
10 say they arrested three men in my village from their homes and took them
11 away in police van. Jozo Buzuk, Mr. Jakara, and Jago Ivandic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know why these men were arrested?
14 A. I don't know the real reason why people were arrested, not only
15 those three but the others too. We can only put forward various
16 assumptions, but I don't think it is helpful to anyone.
17 Q. You know that a mobilisation was carried out in Prijedor in
18 November 1991?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Were you called up then?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You did not respond; correct?
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. Do you know about the additional mobilisation drive carried out
25 by the JNA in 1992?
1 A. I don't know exactly when it was, but I know people said it was
2 going on.
3 Q. Is it true that most of the men who had responded to the call-up
4 were Serbs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can we also agree that all of those who responded, regardless of
7 ethnicity, were armed by the JNA?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I will now put it to you that in paragraphs 43, 44,
10 45, 46, 49, 51, and 52, you describe your movements around
11 Brisevo [as interpreted] at the time of the shelling and the attacks?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. Wouldn't that
13 be a better subject for --
14 MR. LUKIC: Any time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- after the break.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break. And we first ask the
18 witness to be escorted out of the courtroom. We'd like to see you back
19 in 20 minutes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes, which means that
23 we'll resume at eight minutes to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to move into private session.
2 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Mr. Lukic, in view of the fact that, for the next witness, we
1 need preparation for some protective measures, you could consider to have
2 a little bit longer session and then conclude your cross-examination. Of
3 course, depending on how many questions there would be in re-examination.
4 But I'll verify that at the end of this session.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Atlija, please be seated.
8 Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can we continue, Mr. Atlija?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Before the break, I mentioned a few paragraphs from
13 your statement. The numbers were there for the sake of the transcript.
14 My question was, or, is: While there was shelling, you were moving from
15 one place to another, you were crossing through areas, passing through
16 areas, visiting your parents and your neighbours. So how was it, since
17 you say that there were 2.000 armed men included in the action, who
18 participated in the action on the Serbian side, how was it possible for
19 you to avoid such a numerous group of people who were present in the area
20 of the village of yours, or were they not present there?
21 A. In the part of the statement where mention is made of my
22 movements in the course of the shelling, there is a correct description
23 of the path that I follow -- the route that I followed, that is quite
24 true. But when the shellings were falling and when they attacked us, I
25 think that at one point in my statement I stated that the infantry did
1 not immediately enter the village, but they -- there were shells that
2 were falling there for hours, and then in the early evening hours, it
3 says that the infantry or the soldiers started entering the village. But
4 as I was moving around, only shells were falling.
5 So you would just run a bit, then throw yourself down on the
6 ground and so on. It wasn't really as if I was constantly running all
7 the time.
8 Q. Thank you. In paragraphs 49 and 50 of your statement, you
9 mention the Chetniks and you distinguished them from soldiers. The only
10 killing that you saw yourself was perpetrated by those Chetniks, and that
11 is what you state in paragraph 53; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct. I said that they were soldiers and there were
13 Chetniks, too. I said that you could distinguish them because they only
14 had parts of their uniforms on them or they had other kinds of insignia.
15 They had weapons that aren't the sort of weapons that regular military
16 units have. And when Bedi [phoen] Maric was killed, the Chetniks
17 perpetrated that murder, but soldiers were also present on that occasion.
18 Q. I'd now like to look to move onto several other questions that
19 concern the graves that you described. Grave number 1, for example. You
20 mentioned a group of about 20 Muslims who were buried there. The Muslims
21 withdrew to the Kurevo woods, that's what we established, after the
22 fighting in Hambarine.
23 You make -- you made a different statement in the Stakic case.
24 On page 5601 on the 3rd of July, 2002, you said in that case that you did
25 not see them but that other peasants, villagers, told me that a group of
1 about 12 Muslims passed through our village. And in your statement, you
2 say that there were 20 of them. Could we clarify this now? Were there
3 12 of them or 20 of them, and what did those villagers in fact tell you?
4 A. Yes, I can clarify this. That's not a problem. When I said
5 about 12 Muslims, I think the question was whether -- well, the villagers
6 said that 12 young Muslims passed through the village in the direction of
7 Sanski Most, in the direction of Stari Majdan. But as for the 20 bodies,
8 that was above Dubica Dizdarevic's house, just above the road, and I
9 cannot claim that they were the same people because many Muslim
10 refugees - as I have already said - tried to pass from Brisevo to
11 Sanski Most to Stari Majdan, which was inhabited by Muslims exclusively.
12 Whether some of those 12 men were among those who were killed, I don't
13 know. I could not say. I don't know whether these were the same people.
14 Q. Very well. Thank you. I apologise for that interruption. Now I
15 would like to ask you about grave number 3. You mention wounds of an
16 irregular shape that couldn't have been inflicted by bullets. And as far
17 as this is concerned, I have just several general questions I would like
18 to put to you. You don't have a military background. You don't have any
19 knowledge of ballistics, do you?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You don't have any medical education either, do you?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. At the time -- or, in fact, before you exhumed the victims, could
24 you be helped by medical personnel who were in a position to determine
25 the cause of death of a -- a given body? I assume that was not the case,
1 but I have to put this question to you.
2 A. Unfortunately, no, I did not have anyone of that kind.
3 Q. I'll move onto grave number 13, paragraph 87 in your statement.
4 You talk about Mirsad Svraka. You said Mirsad Svraka was 14 years old.
5 I did not see his body and I'm not sure whether the body was exhumed.
6 The people who buried him found his identity card that was buried in a
7 glass jar close to his body.
8 There's something I'm not quite clear about. Perhaps there is a
9 mistake as far as his age is concerned or perhaps your information on the
10 jar and the ID card is erroneous. Would you agree with me that no one
11 who was 14 years old had an identity card? You had to be 16 years old to
12 have an identity card, at least 16 years old.
13 A. As you have said -- I'm just waiting for the sake of the
14 interpretation. As you have said, I did not personally see
15 Mirsad Svraka's body. All I did was speak to the people who buried him,
16 and they said that they found an ID card by his side and that they put it
17 in that glass jar and buried it as well, and they also told me that he
18 was about 14 years old. I didn't give the matter any thought, and I did
19 not try to find out whether an ID card had been found by his side or not.
20 I didn't try to find out whether he was 14, 15, or 13 years old. I
21 really can't tell you anything about that.
22 Q. Thank you. In paragraphs 89 and 90 a reference is also made to
23 graves. And you say:
24 "I think all the victims were Muslims from the surrounding
25 villages. I don't know whether they exhumed them."
1 However, in your statement of the 30th of January, 1993 you
2 say -- and, again, you're speaking about the Redak grave, you say that
3 about 200 Muslims were killed there in one day. The Chetniks had the
4 main say, and the Croats from Gornja Ravska. Unfortunately
5 Celajl [phoen] was their commander and Nikola Juric. Where did you
6 obtain information of this kind? Who provided you with this information?
7 A. After all of these events, these unfortunate events on Brisevo,
8 we were in contact, we spoke to several people from Gornja Ravska and
9 they provided us with that information. Some of these people, in fact,
10 offered to help us bury our dead, and in the course of conversation,
11 these subjects were touched upon, because when going to Gornja Ravska, I
12 think that Jure Dimac was with me, I'm sure of that. We saw a pile of
13 dead bodies, and then this subject was a subject that was discussed in
14 the course of our conversation.
15 Q. So you do not know whether they were buried or whether they were
17 A. I can only assume that many of those bodies were subsequently
18 moved to a mass grave that was later found at the Jakarina Kosa location.
19 That's what I assume. As for whether it's 100 per cent correct, I could
20 not say.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: Not to be surprised for everybody, I would probably
23 finish very soon, so the -- the Prosecution knows.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Now I would like to move onto grave 16,
25 Kurevska Brda. You say:
1 "I don't know how many persons were killed in total at this
2 location. People were killed and left there and I don't know what
3 happened to them. The victims were Muslims, mostly, who tried to flee
4 through the Kurevo forest."
5 Would you agree with me - although you say that you don't know
6 how many persons were killed - that, here, it was probably the Muslim
7 fighters who were hiding in the Kurevo forest that were involved?
8 A. Now whether any of the persons killed were fighters, I cannot
9 confirm that. But next to these corpses, I did not see any weapons or
10 any other kind of military equipment on the basis of which one could
11 conclude something like that. I think that there were some women there
12 as well, from what I could see. They wore women's clothing and had the
13 build of a woman's body.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that, at that time, quite a few Muslim
15 fighters wore civilian clothing and did not have uniforms?
16 A. How many wore civilian clothing and how many wore uniforms, I
17 cannot say. But there were Muslims, to the best of my knowledge, who had
18 been armed and did not have uniforms.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
21 microphones please be switched off while the witness is speaking. Thank
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now paragraph 96. You speak about Aliskovic and we have
25 mentioned him several times. You say that he was captured and brought to
1 Ljubija. Is it correct that he was one of the organisers of the
2 resistance in Hambarine, and do you know that he was killed in fighting?
3 A. I know that he was in Hambarine. Now what his position was;
4 namely whether he was the organiser or not, that is something I don't
5 know. Now how he was killed, again I don't know. I don't know whether
6 it was in combat as he and his group fought against the Serb units or
7 whether he had been captured first and then killed or whether he had been
8 killed and then brought there, I cannot say for sure. I know that I
9 heard shooting from the main square in Ljubija, and then a person
10 nicknamed Kuki, his last name is Kukavica, came to this apartment where
11 we were hiding at the time, and he said to us Aziz Aliskovic has been
12 brought to the square dead and they are shooting and celebrating.
13 Q. Now I'm going to embark on my next set of questions. That's
14 going to be very brief and I will continue on that note and finish.
15 We received a set of documents from the Prosecution that show
16 that, for years, with the assistance of the OTP, you fought against
17 Germany's intention to repatriate you to Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. Yes, that's true. I did not want to go back to
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in any case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd just ask that that portion of the
22 transcript that mentions the country where the witness was residing be
23 redacted and that we move into private session for any further discussion
24 in that regard.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Atlija, as I've said, I'm not going to
23 torment you. Could you just explain the following to us. Until which
24 year did you continue this fight; and did you eventually manage to stay
25 on in that country; and do you live there to this day?
1 A. Yes, Mr. Lukic. I don't know the exact date now, but I think
2 that during the first seven years I had major problems with getting a
3 work permit, a residence permit, and everything else. After seven years
4 things stabilised, and then I obtained German citizenship and then the
5 problem was over.
6 Q. Thank you. Thank you for having answered my questions.
7 A. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions, Mr. Lukic.
9 Mr. Traldi, do you have any further questions for the witness?
10 MR. TRALDI: Yes, just briefly, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI: First, Your Honours, could we please call 65 ter
13 28372 to the screens.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Traldi:
15 MR. TRALDI: And I'm looking for the bottom of the page, starting
16 with the last question. Beginning at line 18.
17 Q. Mr. Atlija, at page 13 of today's temporary transcript, Mr. Lukic
18 suggested to you that you had previously testified that refugees from
19 Hambarine were exchanged and read you a portion of your testimony in the
20 Stanisic and Zupljanin case with the 65 ter number 1D00229.
21 What I'm going to do is read you the last few lines of the
22 previous page of transcript assigned to 65 ter 28372 and then I'll ask
23 you a question in that regard. Beginning at line 18 that transcript
25 "Q. Do you know what occurred to the inhabitants of Kozarac? Do
1 you know if they continued to life in the village after the attack?
2 "A. Most of them tried to leave the area. According to what we
3 learnt later, most of them managed to pull out through -- across the
4 Kozarac Mount. Some of them reached Croatia. Other civilians managed to
5 reach Stari Majdan. According to what the survivors said, quite a few of
6 them were killed or captured and taken to various camps so that there
7 were no Muslims left in Kozarac."
8 My question is: Were you speaking - and I should observe that
9 your answer continues on the next page, transcript page 16093,
10 65 ter 1D00229 - with the portion Mr. Lukic read to you earlier. My
11 question is: Were you speaking about the inhabitants of Hambarine during
12 that portion of your testimony.
13 A. As for the question that you put to me just now, this is an
14 explicit reference to the population of Kozarac. When Mr. Lukic asked me
15 about the refugees from Hambarine, I said then that part of them returned
16 to Hambarine, others tried to go to Sanski Most. Now how many people who
17 returned to Hambarine were exchanged and how many were killed or how many
18 went elsewhere, that is something I don't know. However, I also
19 mentioned that at the time they were even capturing civilians in the
20 streets. In Ljubija, for instance they put them into buses, and they
21 took them for exchanges somewhere in the area of Travnik. That's what we
22 heard later.
23 Q. And sir, at temporary transcript page 32, Mr. Lukic suggested to
24 you that some people, in what is identified in your statement as grave
25 16, might have been fighters. As to the people from your village who you
1 buried and who you could identify, my question is: Were any of those
2 people fighters or otherwise involved in combat as of 23 to 25 July 1992?
3 A. In the village of Brisevo itself, not a single person was armed,
4 not a single person was a combatant in any sense of the word. Because
5 beforehand, we had agreed on this, and we saw the situation that we were
6 in and we realised that we did not stand a chance. Basically, we were
7 left at their mercy and we didn't want to provoke the Serb authorities
8 and the Serb units in any way. The Serb units that were around the
9 village, that is. In Brisevo, not a single bullet was fired in the
10 direction of the Serb forces. No attempts were made to put up any kind
11 of resistance.
12 As for the killed persons, nobody wore uniforms, nobody had any
13 kind of weapons or military equipment.
14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that concludes my re-examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Have those questions triggered any need for further
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one further question for you,
19 Mr. Atlija, which is the following. In your statement we find - and
20 Mr. Lukic alluded to that - in relation to grave number 3, you said:
21 "On some of them I saw wounds of an irregular shape that couldn't
22 have been made by bullets."
23 Could you describe for me the shape of those wounds which you
24 considered to be irregular?
25 A. If I remember correctly, this is a description of the grave in
1 which a group of local people were buried in a hamlet. I don't have it
2 in front of me now, I mean the statement. I think it was Mlinar. They
3 actually looked like very big cuts. It looked like wounds that were due
4 to blows by an object. For example, if you see an entry wound from a
5 bullet, it's a centimetre and a half or 2 centimetres in diameter and
6 relatively regular. So I assumed that these wounds or injures had been
7 inflicted by a different kind of object. Also, this was supported by the
8 fact that there were tools near the grave where there were shovels and
9 axes and other things that had traces of blood on them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're moving to the conclusions, but I
11 would strictly stick to the description of the -- the shape of the
12 wounds. You said:
13 "They looked like very big cuts."
14 What do you mean by "big cuts"? Is that a cut of 3 centimetres
15 or 10 centimetres or 20 centimetres? Could you describe it in a bit more
17 A. Yes, Your Honour. There were some wounds that looked like cuts
18 that were even longer than 20 centimetres. There were wounds that looked
19 like when there are blood hematoma underneath the skin. Again, 20, 30
20 centimetres big. Also, there were -- well, I'm not very good at this,
21 giving this kind of description.
22 It's as if somebody were to do something to soft tissue, say,
23 human flesh. I mean, if you were to hit human flesh so hard that
24 underneath that flesh, bones would break and a lot of blood gathers
25 underneath the skin. It looked terrible, and I don't think that it was
1 due to the --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last word.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last word. You said you do not
4 think it was due to ...
5 A. Bullets. No way. I don't think a person would have to be an
6 expert or to have any kind of special education or training to see the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, were you able to observe the depth
9 of those wounds. Was it a millimetre, was it half a centimetre, was it
10 1 -- were you able to observe whether it was of some considerable depth?
11 A. Your Honour, when we were burying these people, you could see
12 that some of them were wounded, in fact, down to the bone. So, in fact,
13 it was several centimetres deep.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now were you able to observe whether or not those
15 wounds had relatively sharp edges?
16 A. What was particularly visible was, say, as far as Milan Buzuk was
17 concerned - one of the dead persons - Milan Buzuk's head had been
18 shattered and his brain had spilled out by the head. And, on the skull
19 where his eyes were supposed to be, there were only black holes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. I do understand that
21 thinking back of what you saw at the time is emotional for you.
22 I have no further questions.
23 Have the questions by the Bench raised any need for further
25 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honours. Thank you.
1 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Atlija, this then concludes your testimony in this Court.
4 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
5 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
6 Bench, and could I wish you a "gute heimreise."
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
8 I do apologise. I do apologise. Usually I manage to control my emotions
9 but this time it was different. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need to apologise.
11 You may follow the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think the best would be to take the break now so
15 that the protective measures can be prepared for the next witness.
16 If I'm well-informed, that would take 20 minutes, at least. We
17 resume at five minutes to 12.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.36 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
21 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think, in view of the protective measures, that
23 when the witness enters the room, the blinds should be down for a second.
24 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 Protective measures are face distortion, voice distortion, and
1 pseudonym, Ms. Bibles, is that ...
2 MS. BIBLES: That's correct, Your Honour. There is a brief
3 matter I would like to raise. We can do it in public session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in public session at this moment,
5 although disturbed by the noise of the --
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, in an effort to minimise the amount of
7 time spent in private session with certain witnesses, the Prosecution
8 proposes the following procedure.
9 For witnesses for whom the mention of certain names or places
10 might identify them, we will create a pseudonym sheet which contains a
11 list of those names and places, and each one will be assigned a number.
12 We will instruct the witness that, should it become necessary to
13 mention that name or place, that they, instead, use the number that's
14 assigned. We would ask that a hard copy of that pseudonym sheet then be
15 placed on the witness table for reference during their testimony.
16 And, of course, Your Honour, any detailed discussion of these
17 persons, we would ask for private session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please keep in mind that witnesses sometimes
19 are a bit nervous and not always fully able to cope, which your technical
20 solution, which, Mr. Lukic, unless you would oppose --
21 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. We are provided with the same list
22 so we will try to abide by it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's appreciated. The Chamber allows you to
24 proceed as you suggested, Ms. Bibles.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness RM032, because that's how we
2 will call you in this case.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The blinds can be up first, and then I will invite
5 you to make a solemn declaration.
6 Meanwhile, I already inform you that protective measures are in
7 place, which means that no one will see your face outside this courtroom,
8 no one will hear your own voice outside this courtroom, and we'll not
9 mention you by name but we'd call you "Witness RM032."
10 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
11 solemn declaration. The text is given to you by the usher. My I invite
12 you to make that solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: RM032
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness RM032. Please be seated.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I also draw your attention to the following.
20 When answering questions, if part of your answer would contain
21 information which is at risk to reveal your identity, do not hesitate to
22 ask me to move into private session so that the outside world would not
23 even know about the content of your evidence for that portion.
24 Witness RM032, you'll first be examined by Ms. Bibles. You'll
25 find her to your right. And Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.
1 You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.
2 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Can I ask the Court Usher show the witness pseudonym sheet marked
4 with 65 ter 28365. And obviously on the courtroom screens only.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown to the public.
6 Examination by Ms. Bibles:
7 MS. BIBLES:
8 Q. Witness, I ask you to look at the sheet in front of you, and I
9 direct your attention to where it says: "Witness name." Without saying
10 your name, can you tell us whether you recognise your name?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Directing your attention to the sheet in front of you where it
13 says: "Date of birth." Again, without saying that date, do you recognise
14 your own date of birth there?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, may I remind you that you should switch
16 off your microphone when the witness answers the question.
17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my date of birth.
19 MS. BIBLES:
20 Q. Do you see other names on that sheet with numbers next to them?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Do you also see a place?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. As you testify, I'll ask that if you need to refer to one of
25 these individuals or to a place, please refer to the place or name by
1 that number.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 28365 into
3 evidence, under seal.
4 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28365 becomes Exhibit P179, under seal,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P179 is admitted under seal.
9 I would first like to know for sure that the witness has
10 understood what she was asked to do.
11 If you want to refer to any of these persons, do not mention the
12 name of that person but just say "person 3," or "person 9," and you keep
13 the list, and the same for a place.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honour, I would ask that a hard copy of
16 this sheet be left with the witness so that she can refer to it with
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The hard copy could be left with the witness.
19 No need to be shown to the Defence, from what I understand from
20 Mr. Lukic.
21 MS. BIBLES: Could I ask now to display the first page of 65 ter
22 28364 only on the courtroom screens.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have full light in the courtroom. Perhaps
24 the reference to the courtroom screens, the usual way of expressing what
25 you wish, Ms. Bibles, is not to be shown to the public. It's still
1 slightly dark but light enough to continue. But I ask the specific
2 attention of the technicians to restore the usual level of lighting.
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. BIBLES:
5 Q. Witness, have you had an opportunity, prior to testifying, to
6 review a statement, as redacted, that you provided to the Office of the
8 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
9 Q. As we look at the English version of this exhibit, down at the
10 bottom of the page, do you recognise your signature on this page?
11 A. Yes. This is my signature.
12 MS. BIBLES: Could we please now look at page 9 of the English
14 Q. Do you recognise the signature on this page?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And whose signature is that?
17 A. Mine.
18 Q. Can you today affirm the truth and accuracy of this statement, as
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28364
22 under seal.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Was this -- yes. There's no objection. I don't
25 know whether you went through all the attestation questions, but let me
1 just ...
2 You asked for the -- yes. The usual question is also that if you
3 were asked the same questions today, whether you would give the same
4 answers, as we find them in the statement, as redacted?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28364 becomes Exhibit P180, under seal,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P180 is admitted, under seal.
10 MS. BIBLES: And Your Honours, I will briefly review a public
11 summary of the evidence of this witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
13 MS. BIBLES: The witness, who is Muslim, and three of the
14 witness's children were in a group of Muslim women, men, and children
15 trying to walk to safety. They were captured by Serb forces on 4
16 July 1992, and after two or three days from being captured, they were
17 driven to a school in Kalinovik where the witness remained until 1
18 September 1992. The witness describes events which occurred while
19 detained in the school at Kalinovik.
20 The witness describes the murder of a man who was a veterinarian
21 and the witness describes that men would frequently come to the school
22 and rape women at the school or take them away to be raped. The witness
23 describes that Pero Elez came to the school one night, and that he and
24 his group took one young girl away and that an hour later a man she knew
25 as Zaga came and took more young girls away. These young girls were not
1 returned to the school in Kalinovik.
2 The witness and others were then exchanged on 1 September 1992.
3 This concludes my summary.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
5 MS. BIBLES:
6 Q. Witness, you describe being moved to the school in Kalinovik two
7 or three days after you were captured. Were other Muslims being held in
8 the school when you arrived?
9 A. We found their families, their wives and children, and they told
10 us that there had been 70 men who had been taken to the gunpowder house
11 in Kalinovik, whereas we were put in the -- up in the school house.
12 We -- we heard that from those women.
13 Q. Witness, your statement refers frequently to the actions and
14 statements of a person you knew at the time only as Zaga. Do you now
15 know his true identity?
16 A. I do. That is Dragan Kunarac.
17 Q. Do you know the exact date that the young girls were taken away
18 from the school in Kalinovik?
19 A. 2nd August, 1992.
20 Q. After the date that the young girls were taken away, did you ask
21 Zaga what was going to happen to the group of you there at the school?
22 A. He came several times, and I always approached him to ask what
23 had happened to those girls and when they would come back, and he said
24 they wouldn't come back. On one occasion, I asked him, What's going to
25 happen to us? He said, We'll kill you. We'll kill you all. Perhaps two
1 days, two nights earlier, I just killed 20 men in the gunpowder house.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could we briefly go into private
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MS. BIBLES:
24 Q. Witness, do you know what date Zaga made that statement?
25 A. It was after the 2nd of August, because the 2nd of August was the
1 day when Zaga took those girls away, and he came another two or three
2 times after that. So it could have been - I can't remember exactly - but
3 it could have been two or three days later, but I can't tell you the
4 exact date.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
7 witness at this time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
9 Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
10 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM032, you'll now be cross-examined by
12 Mr. Ivetic on behalf of the Defence of Mr. Mladic.
13 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
16 Q. Good day, madam.
17 A. Good day.
18 Q. I have some questions to ask you today, and with your assistance,
19 if you please pay attention to what I ask, and if you focus your answer
20 to that question, I will try to make this as easy as possible for you,
21 while, at the same time, clarifying your evidence.
22 Are you ready to proceed, madam?
23 A. I am.
24 Q. And also, madam, I would like to take the opportunity to remind
25 you that you should pay attention to the pseudonym sheet that you have in
1 front of you. I also have a copy of the same, and if I refer to anyone
2 or any place that's on this sheet, I will use the codes, and, in that
3 way, we will be able to safe-guard your identity. Is that understood,
5 A. I understand.
6 Q. And, lastly before I begin, I do have a hard copy of your
7 statement in the language that you understand. Do you have a copy or
8 should I give this one to you so you have it in front of you while you --
9 while you answer my questions?
10 A. I don't have a copy. I only have this paper.
11 Q. That's not a problem, madam.
12 MR. IVETIC: I will ask the Court Usher to first show this copy
13 to opposing counsel and then give it to you.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I reviewed this copy prior to court,
15 so it doesn't need to be shown to me now.
16 MR. IVETIC: If we can then give it to the witness.
17 Q. Okay, madam. Now I would like to begin with respect to
18 paragraph 3 of your statement, and, again, I would ask that the statement
19 that is brought up in e-court for everyone else not be broadcast to the
20 public, and I would ask that -- for Madam Registrar to keep that
21 instruction in mind throughout the entirety of my examination.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 2385-2390 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Madam, at the time that you and the group you were with were
3 arrested at the Ulog road crossing, am I correct that there were no
4 military-aged men as part of your group?
5 A. In the group that was arrested, no. But there was a young man
6 who was a vet. He didn't want to leave his wife and children.
7 Q. And if we could look at paragraph -- well, actually it's
8 paragraph 9 of the statement, which is on the third page in both
9 languages, but perhaps for this question, it's -- perhaps not even
11 Am I correct, madam, that the two to three days you were kept in
12 a school in Ulog, that that one mistreated you there. Anyone in the
13 group there?
14 A. Not in Ulog.
15 Q. And at paragraph 12 of your statement, that's still on the same
16 page, page 3 in both languages, you identify that at the school in
17 Kalinovik you were guarded by soldiers and by police. Could you describe
18 for us how these shifts of soldiers and police operated; that is to say,
19 did they rotate with each other, et cetera?
20 A. Yes, they did. The people there worked shifts. Some in the
21 morning, some at night. But we could not always see who these people
22 were because they were at the entrance to the school.
23 Q. Would it be correct to say that there were no guards situated
24 inside the school where you and the rest of the group were spending your
1 A. The guards would occasionally enter the premises where we were
2 being kept.
3 Q. Could you give us an approximation of how many policemen and/or
4 soldiers were guarding you at any given time and if that changed during
5 the night?
6 A. Well, there were always about two or three guards there. It was
7 never the same men. This changed.
8 Q. Thank you. At paragraphs 13 through 14 of your statement, you
9 mention --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one clarifying question.
11 You said you were guarded by soldiers and by policemen and that
12 they rotated. Now was it that one shift was exclusively policemen and
13 then the other shift exclusively soldiers, or were they mixed shifts
14 being policemen and soldiers in the same shift? If you do know.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember that now. I
16 really don't know. The police force at the time had blue shirts, and the
17 soldiers had olive-drab uniforms, the uniforms that belonged to the
18 former army. But I cannot now remember whether they were mixed shifts or
19 not. All I know is that there were soldiers and there were also
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
24 Q. Madam at paragraphs 13 through 14 of your statement, you mention
25 aggressive behaviour and some mistreatment. Am I right that this was all
1 from the policemen that were guarding you, rather than from the soldiers?
2 A. It wasn't the policemen. It was the soldiers. The ones who were
3 aggressive, it was the soldiers, not the policemen. There were a few
4 strict policemen, and they forced us to go to the toilet in groups, in
5 several groups. But there were very few such policemen.
6 Q. If I can then direct your attention to paragraph 13 of your
7 statement and the first sentence in there which -- which -- I believe I
8 can read to you. I don't think that will identify the witness. But it
10 "The policemen, except for two of them, behaved very aggressive
11 toward [sic] us."
12 Could I ask you now to clarify this response, in light of what
13 you just told us?
14 A. Yes, there were two such policemen. They were really good for
15 us, and these soldiers would sometimes come at night and during the day
16 to take the women away, or the girls. If they came at night, they always
17 told the women, If you have any matches or torch or lighter, don't give
18 it to them. But this only concerned two of the policemen. It's only
19 these two policemen who said such things to us.
20 Q. Okay. Now, the incidents that are -- the incident that is
21 described in paragraphs 15 and 16 of your statement when several girls
22 were taken away - and that's on page 3 in both languages - am I correct
23 that those persons that took the girls away were neither the policemen
24 nor the soldiers that you had seen before but were new individuals from
25 outside the school?
1 A. Yes. It didn't concern the policemen. These were Kunarac's
2 people. They are the people who took the girls away. Kunarac did that
4 Q. Did these people you've described as Kunarac's people have
5 different insignia or uniforms than the soldiers and police that guarded
6 you at the Kalinovik school?
7 A. Yes. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. They had some sort
8 of ribbons on their heads, white ribbons, and they also had some sort of
9 white ribbons on their sleeves.
10 Q. And were these people also affiliated with Mr. Pero Elez, whom
11 you mentioned, I believe, in your -- in your statement?
12 A. Well, I don't know. They didn't turn up with Pero Elez.
13 Pero Elez arrived earlier, a day or two earlier, on the 2nd of August.
14 He was the first one to arrive on the 2nd of August, and he took a girl
15 away. The first girl he took away was the girl listed under number 7.
16 Q. Thank you. How many people were part of this group that you
17 described as Kunarac's people?
18 A. Well, there were always more than five or six of them.
19 Q. Was there always more of them than the guards that were watching
20 over the Kalinovik school?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. Madam, if I can just caution you. I need to switch off my
23 microphone before you answer so that your voice does not go through the
24 microphones. So please pause when I ask a question to permit me to turn
25 off the microphone for your benefit.
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that this group of five or six men that
3 came, that you have described as Kunarac's people, appeared to be
4 paramilitaries rather than regular army forces?
5 A. Well, I don't know. On one occasion, he told me that they were
6 the White Eagles. Now I don't know whom they were affiliated to, but
7 they did have weapons on them.
8 Q. Did you ever see this group make threats or argue with the
9 soldiers and police that were guarding the Kalinovik school?
10 A. We didn't really observe them when they came and when they left,
11 so I really don't know. But on one occasion, a man appeared and took a
12 group away, a group of girls and women. He took them away. He escorted
13 them that evening. He was to take them away on the following evening.
14 The same man was to take them away on the following evening, but he
15 threatened them and told them not tell anyone. As one of the woman had
16 small children, she told this to a guard. She informed the guard of
17 this, and they prevented this from happening that evening. The guards
18 prevented that group from being taken away, that group of women and
19 girls, from being taken away. But I don't know. I didn't see how these
20 guards were.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. I am
22 wondering how much time you would still need. If it would be short, I
23 would suggest that we'd continue. If it takes considerable more time, I
24 think we should take a break.
25 MR. IVETIC: I'm looking at perhaps 20 more minutes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we take a break, that we resume
2 at 20 minutes past 1.00, which would allow, then, Mr. Groome, for a short
3 period of time for the administrative hearing, because I do understand
4 that there are no further witnesses. Is that correct?
5 MR. GROOME: That is correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then would you please prepare for the last, well,
7 let's say, 20 minutes of today's session for -- to submit whatever you
8 would like to submit in relation to the scheduling of future witnesses.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have sent it by e-mail and I will
10 bring hard copies to the court next session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could first the curtains be taken down.
12 Could then the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
13 We take a break, and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break. We'll resume at 25 minutes past
18 1.00. Could everyone take care that preparations for re-starting are
19 done a couple of minutes before that point in time.
20 --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Although the curtains are down, we are in open
24 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 Once she's in, the curtains will be up again.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: And ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- could I address the Defence.
5 Voice, low. Being seated. And consultations and discussions
6 preferably during the breaks, and only, if necessary, during the hearing.
7 And that means that immediately after we have taken a break, there
8 ordinarily should be no need to be standing and to speak at a relatively
9 high volume.
10 Mr. Mladic may be seated.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness RM032. We'll wait until
14 the curtains are up again. We still are in open session.
15 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Madam, before the break you mentioned an incident where a
18 gentleman or a man had come and taken women away, and when he came for a
19 second time to take the women away, the guard stopped him. If I may
20 direct your attention to paragraph 47 of your statement. That's page 7
21 in the B/C/S, and it is between pages 6 and 7 of the English version.
22 If I can ask you to look at that paragraph relating to
23 Milenko Bjelica, is this the incident and the individual that you had
24 talked about just prior to us taking the break? Have you had a chance to
25 read this selection, madam, and is this the individual we talked -- that
1 you talked about prior to us taking the break?
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you answer the question, whether that is the
4 incident you talked about before the break?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear no interpretation when you
6 addressed me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the usher assist. Can you now hear the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Now I hear everything.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were invited to read paragraph 47, and you
11 were then asked whether what is described in that paragraph is -- whether
12 that's the same event you described before the break.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is. It is. That's the man
14 we discussed before, the man who took those women to some farm, then
15 brought them back, and then he wanted to take them out again but the
16 policemen stopped him.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. And am I correct that this person, Milenko Bjelica, was dressed
19 in a different uniform than the police and soldiers that were guarding
20 the Kalinovik school?
21 A. I only remember he had this fuzzy, long Russian cap, the Russian
22 cap, and he said himself that his name was Milenko Bjelica and that he
23 was from Trnovo.
24 Q. And did this individual come alone or with a group of people?
25 A. He had several men with him.
1 Q. And am I correct that these several men had uniforms different
2 from the police and soldiers that were watching the Kalinovik school?
3 A. They wore --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure. This word may
5 mean camouflage uniform and it can also be clothing of different colours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your last answer and
7 describe a bit more in detail what kind of uniforms they were wearing or
8 what kind of clothing they were wearing?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember Marinko wore that cap.
10 The others had multi-coloured clothes and also the green clothes from the
11 previous army, the former army.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Madam, I would like to move to another incident. It's on the
15 same page in the English, and it starts on the previous page in the
16 B/C/S, at paragraph 46 of your statement. And it relates to the incident
17 with Mr. Hasanbegovic.
18 Am I correct that the individual --
19 MR. IVETIC: Just one moment.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
22 Q. Am I correct that this individual that took out Mr. Hasanbegovic
23 and referred to himself as Vojvoda, that he also had a different uniform
24 or clothing than the police and soldiers that were guarding the school in
1 A. He wore black with a black kerchief around his neck. I don't
2 remember now if he had a cap, but I remember this black kerchief around
3 his neck and that wore black. He told us that he was a native of place
4 number 12 and he lived in Foca.
5 Q. And did he come alone or with a group of his own men?
6 A. There was several men with him.
7 Q. Am I correct that the men with him had different clothing than
8 the guards at the Kalinovik school?
9 A. I can't remember what they wore now. I remember only that man.
10 Q. Fair enough. Am I correct that the guards guarding the Kalinovik
11 school did not participate in this incident with Mr. Hasanbegovic?
12 A. I don't think they did. Because he took Mr. Hasanbegovic away
13 before. Hasanbegovic would come back black and blue, telling us that he
14 had been beaten by that man. But the next time the man came, he took him
15 again, and we were told all this by the women from upstairs, women from
16 Kalinovik. We just heard two or three shots, and those women seemed to
17 have seen that the man had a bloody knife, and Hasanbegovic never came
19 Q. If we could move on then. At paragraph 45 of your --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question.
21 In the statement, you say that Hasanbegovic was taken upstairs.
22 Do I understand that, therefore, he remained within the building
23 which was guarded by the policemen and the soldiers?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, upstairs. We were on the
25 ground floor, and there was another floor above us. So he was taken
1 upstairs. That's where those women from Kalinovik were held, and they
2 heard it all. And they saw it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also said that:
4 "A car arrived and women saw soldiers bringing down a body
5 wrapped in a blanket."
6 Are you positive about that they told you that it were soldiers
7 that brought down that body?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The women said that those were men
9 who had come by that car. They brought the body down, wrapped in a
10 blanket, and put it in the car.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They saw it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And whether these were soldiers or people belonging
14 to a group that came in not being policemen or soldiers, that is,
15 therefore, unclear?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. The women who
17 saw it with their own eyes probably saw that too.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But are you positive or are you not certain
19 about whether they told that you soldiers - that is, men in uniform, the
20 soldiers which guarded the school - or whether, perhaps, other men took
21 the body downstairs?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were other men who brought
23 down the body. They were not the guards.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
3 Q. If I can move then to paragraph 45 of your statement, and I
4 believe that's on the same page in both versions. I want to ask you
5 about these different groups of soldiers that were coming in. Am I
6 correct that these men were dressed in different uniforms than the
7 regular police and soldiers that were guarding the Kalinovik school?
8 A. Yes. Because you could recognise policemen by their blue shirts.
9 And there were others who wore the green uniform, the olive-green
10 uniform. Those were the guards. But the other men who came in, they
11 wore both the olive-green uniforms and camouflage uniforms.
12 Q. And am I correct that the regular police or soldiers that were
13 guarding the school, they did not commit any of the acts that are listed
14 in paragraph 45 of your statement?
15 A. I think that's right. I don't think these men did anything bad.
16 I mean the policemen and the guards.
17 Q. Thank you, madam. Now if we could move to the seventh page in
18 both versions of your statement, and I would direct your attention to
19 paragraph 48. You talk about a visit to the Kalinovik school by the
20 chief of police and the president of the SDS from Kalinovik. Do you have
21 any better idea of the date when this may have occurred?
22 A. I can't tell you. I can't -- I can't remember.
23 Q. Fair enough. At the time that these persons visited, did you or
24 anyone voice complaints to them about the acts or abuse performed by
25 these visitors that we have talked about?
1 A. Yes, we did. We complained to this man by the name of Govedarica
2 and we complained to Zeljaja, but they said they couldn't do anything
3 about it. We said that men were coming, taking us out, mistreating us,
4 but they said, We can't help it.
5 Q. Okay. At paragraph 49 of your statement - and that's still on
6 the seventh page in both versions - you state: You "...did not see
7 Mladic coming there."
8 Does this mean that you did not see General Mladic ever at the
9 school where you were being held?
10 A. We never saw him, and nobody ever said he had visited.
11 Q. Am I correct that no officers of the army - that is to say, the
12 army of the Republika Srpska - ever came to the Kalinovik school during
13 the time period that you were there?
14 A. I don't know what you mean by "officer." I said we had never
15 seen Mr. Mladic, and we had never heard that he had visited.
16 Q. My question to you, madam, was that with regards -- is it correct
17 that nobody else who would say ever identified to be an officer of the
18 Army of Republika Srpska ever visited the school in Kalinovik during the
19 time-period that you were there?
20 A. No. I mean they didn't.
21 Q. Thank you. At paragraph 44 of your statement, you talk about --
22 and that's on page 6 of the English and the B/C/S in e-court. You talk
23 about losses of the Serbs at Rogoj on the battle-field. Did you hear any
24 specifics about the number of casualties that were sustained?
25 A. I did not.
1 Q. Did you know or hear anything about bodies of Serb soldiers
2 showing signs of mutilation or decapitation?
3 A. Could you please repeat that question?
4 Q. Did you know or hear anything about bodies of Serb soldiers
5 showing signs of mutilation or decapitation? And I'm talking about in
7 A. I did not hear any of that. When Kunarac came, and when, once, I
8 asked him why he had picked up children and taken them away, he said his
9 family members had been killed at Trnovo and this was in retaliation.
10 That's why he picked up those children.
11 Q. If we could now focus on paragraphs 50 through 52 of your
12 statement. That's page 7 in the English and I believe it should be page
13 7 of the B/C/S. This is where you're talking about the incident where
14 the soldiers with long beards came and blindfolded you and took you to a
15 hill to deliver a message to the Muslim soldiers.
16 A. Yes. May I? It happened this way. One day Zeljaja and
17 Govedarica came. One was chief of police, another was police commander.
18 I don't know which was which. I confused these things. Anyway, they
19 came one morning. They asked if there was anyone who could take a letter
20 to the Muslim side where the Muslims were holding their line. I
21 volunteered. My children started crying. I told them, Don't cry. If I
22 don't come back, you still have an aunt and stay with her.
23 They took me outside the school. There were men with long
24 beards. I can't remember how many exactly there were in that group.
25 They asked me if I had any more children. I said I had another two also
1 there at the school, and they told me if I don't come back, my children
2 would be killed.
3 They blindfolded me with a white band and tied me, and I asked,
4 Where are you taking me? And the -- this man cursed my mother and said,
5 How dare you ask. They put me in a car. There was somebody else sitting
6 next to me in the car. I don't know how many. They -- anyway, they took
7 me to a hill, and that's where they had me get out of the car.
8 Q. Madam, my question was going to be about the -- the part that you
9 just testified about with regard to Zeljaja and this Govedarica. Am I to
10 understand from your testimony that both of these individuals -- am I to
11 understand from your testimony that both of these individuals were
12 affiliated with the police?
13 A. Well, it's what they told us themselves, that one was chief of
14 police and the other was police commander. I don't know which one was
15 chief and which one was commander.
16 Q. Fair enough, madam. Am I correct at this time that there were no
17 persons identified that were present -- that were identified as being
18 officers of the Army of Republika Srpska?
19 A. I didn't hear anything of that sort. No one provided me with
20 such information.
21 Q. Thank you. We're almost done.
22 Now the place where you went and collected bodies of dead Serbs
23 just before you were exchanged, do you have any idea of the approximate
24 location? Are we talking about Rogoj, or are we talking about another
1 A. It wasn't Rogoj. It was on the other side. Because that place
2 was called Jakomislje. It's somewhere in Kalinovik. I don't know
3 exactly. But that was the first time I went there. All I can remember
4 is that it was called Jakomislje or Jakomistje [phoen]. I don't know the
5 exact name but it was something like that.
6 Q. Thank you. And do you know if this was perhaps an incident --
7 strike that. I apologise.
8 Did you ever hear of an incident involving civilians in an auto
9 bus that were -- that were attacked and killed on the road Foca-Kalinovik
10 in August of 1992? Serb civilians in an auto bus that were attacked by
11 Muslim forces?
12 A. No, I wasn't in that area. I know nothing about that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you announced that you would need
14 another 20 minutes. We had a late start which was not due to the Chamber
15 because we were waiting outside. Apparently the accused caused the late
16 start. You've now taken almost 25 minutes. Are you?
17 MR. IVETIC: I am done with my questions. I was just going to
18 thank the witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was the last question. Yes. Then, please, I
20 give you an opportunity to do that.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Madam Witness, I want to thank you for providing the answers, and
23 I apologise if my questions were sometimes long, but I thank you for
24 coming here and clarifying your testimony.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, any need for further questions to the
2 MS. BIBLES: No, Your Honours.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: None of the parties, neither the Bench has any
5 further questions for you, Witness RM032. This concludes your testimony.
6 I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. It may not
7 have been easy for you, but we'd like to thank you and we wish you a safe
8 return home again. After the curtains are down, you may follow the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness -- can the curtains be pulled up
14 The Chamber would like to provide guidance to the parties on its
15 approach to Rule 92 ter decisions in this case, and do that first, and
16 then have the administrative hearing. I already say that there are --
17 there's one slight change at the second page for transcribers and the
18 interpreters who have been provided with a written version.
19 In the past, the Chamber issued decisions on Prosecution
20 Rule 92 ter motions, addressing Defence objections and deferring
21 decisions on admission until all requirements of Rule 92 ter were met.
22 The Defence often raises the same objections to Rule 92 ter motions.
23 The Chamber considers that the parties have by now received
24 sufficient guidance on the Chamber's approach in relation to many matters
25 arising out of the Rule 92 ter litigation. Specifically, some of these
1 matters are:
2 1. Requests for additional time for cross-examination;
3 2. Objections on the ground that the statements allegedly
4 include expert evidence;
5 3. Objections because of references in statements to other
6 testimony or documents not in evidence;
7 4. Objections to hearing a witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter due
8 to the significance of the testimony;
9 5. Objections related to alleged violations of the Chamber's
10 guidance on the presentation of evidence;
11 6. The procedure of appropriately redacting statements where the
12 Prosecution does not rely on certain portions thereof or in view of the
13 adjudicated facts.
14 The Chamber invites the Defence to focus its objections on
15 matters which have not been previously addressed by the Chamber or to
16 specify why the Chamber's previous rulings do not address the Defence's
17 specific concerns for the witness at stake. Similarly, the Prosecution
18 is invited to exercise restraint in seeking leave to reply in relation to
19 matters which have already been addressed many times by the Chamber.
20 From now on, the Chamber will only issue decisions in relation to
21 Rule 92 ter motions prior to the witness's testimony, if the filings
22 raise an issue that has not been addressed sufficiently by the Chamber
23 before, or if any specific issue warrants issuing a decision prior to the
24 witness's appearance. Otherwise, the Chamber will decide on admission of
25 proffered Rule 92 ter material when the witness appears in court.
1 And this concludes the Chamber's guidance.
2 Mr. Groome, we have ten minutes left, and the -- at least Judges
3 have been provided with a draft dated the 3rd of September, 2012,
4 confidential about witness scheduling.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
7 So this draft was actually amended by me earlier today after I
8 received estimates from Mr. Lukic for the witnesses in weeks 7, 8, and 9.
9 There's not much to discuss here now. The Prosecution appreciates the
10 Defence giving these estimates, and we will adjust the schedule so that
11 we have approximately 17, 18 hours of hearing time for each week. If the
12 Chamber in reviewing it believes that it -- it will intervene and change
13 any of the times, the Prosecution, of course, would appreciate knowing
14 that so we can adjust it accordingly. But I don't think there is any
15 need for us to go witness by witness unless the Chamber would like to do
17 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, one observation, when I said a draft
18 dated the 3rd of September, one second before I entered this courtroom,
19 the one I had in my hands was taken out of my hands and replaced by one
20 which was said the update of this morning by the Prosecution. So I take
21 it that we have the one with the -- and we do see the cross-examination
22 estimates in this draft.
23 Mr. Lukic, would there be any matter you'd like to raise in
24 relation to witness scheduling and, Mr. Groome, we are talking about
25 weeks 7, also 8, no comments?
1 MR. GROOME: No. So -- the -- I was hoping that we would have 7
2 through 10. Mr. Lukic was only able to get to 7 through 9. I would
3 appreciate if in the coming week he could review the witnesses for week
4 10 and we will send another version with respect to that.
5 MR. LUKIC: We'll do week 10 as soon as possible, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that at this very moment
7 there's no further need to -- no further need to discuss scheduling?
8 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. Other than to say that I've
9 already begun the process of adjusting the witnesses so there be some
10 slight change in the witness order -- not the witness order but the
11 number of witnesses per week, and I will make those corrections after we
12 leave here today and I will send that later on today.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We would have one question at this moment.
14 Mr. Lukic, for the first few witnesses in week 7, the time for
15 cross-examination exceeds what is usual there.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any specific reason for that? And could
18 you share your views with the Chamber on this matter.
19 MR. LUKIC: The first witness is an insider and he was
20 convicted --
21 MR. GROOME: Can I just alert my --
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
23 MR. LUKIC: He is protected, RM066.
24 MR. GROOME: And his evidence will be provided in closed session,
25 so perhaps we would use caution in even reference to him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Let's then leave number 21 aside for a
2 second and let's then focus on 22, where there are no protective
4 MR. LUKIC: This gentleman gave his evidence in many trials in
5 front of this Tribunal. So it's a huge amount of material that we have
6 to review and probably discuss with him. As before, we will try to have
7 time and cross less than we anticipate, but we have to be on a safe side
8 and ask what we think should be needed to cross-examine this witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I see that also the Prosecution has taken
10 above average time for this 92 ter witness, which may to some extent also
11 explain --
12 Could I, at the same time, urge the parties to the extent
13 possible, to see whether they can seek agreements on matters. For
14 example, we have often during the last days we have heard all kind of
15 evidence elicited in cross-examination about, if I could say it short,
16 skirmishes which have taken place in the area where the witness
17 experienced what he testifies about, although having no personal
18 knowledge of those skirmishes, and often such skirmishes or exchange of
19 fire which has resulted in injuries or death of Serbs.
20 Now, I can imagine that -- that these things happened and often
21 not much more is said about, Do you know whether this happened or not.
22 The witness says, Yeah, I heard about it, and has no further knowledge
23 about it. I could imagine that the parties at some of these events could
24 agree on that, that is what happened. It's not part of the indictment,
25 so you might not go into the depth of that. We also understood that it's
1 often background information rather than anything directly related to the
3 I would urge the parties to see whether we could be more
4 efficient there, and I can imagine that often the Prosecution would not
5 deny that such events were reported, including injuries and death of Serb
6 soldiers or Serb civilians. So if that could be intensified that might
7 save some time as well.
8 We'll move very briefly into private session to see whether
9 there's any further explanation as to Witness RM066.
10 We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Any other matter to be raised at this moment?
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, and I also considered that this might
14 be an opportunity, if the Defence had any issues to raise with respect to
15 those witnesses that -- perhaps issues related to disclosure or other
16 matters that we might productively resolve in the week adjournment. Best
17 to be raised now. Of course, I realise Mr. Lukic may not have considered
18 all of the issues with respect to these witnesses.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for this offer, but we'll contact the OTP
20 tomorrow or in the coming week.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because there are no further witnesses for
22 this week, Mr. Groome, which means that there is no need to have a
23 hearing tomorrow.
24 Therefore, we adjourn until Monday, the 17th of September, at
25 half past 9.00 in the morning in same courtroom, I.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of
3 September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.