Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2569

 1                           Wednesday, 19 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there were some preliminary matters

12     to be raised by both parties.  Prosecution first.

13             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.

14             First, Your Honours with respect to scheduling, earlier this week

15     the Mladic Defence informed the Prosecution that it may use less time

16     than originally estimated with the next witness, Mr. Edward Vullimay.

17     With that in mind, the Prosecution has accelerated its preparations for

18     calling the witness after that and so this is to inform the Chamber and

19     the Defence that the Prosecution will be prepared to call Ibro Osmanovic,

20     the next witness, as early as tomorrow morning.

21             Then, Your Honour, yesterday I understood the Mladic Defence to

22     be challenging the authenticity of the following exhibits.  P numbers

23     186, 188, 189, 190, and 192.  Although I do not have personal knowledge

24     of their provenance, I have examined the records of the Office of the

25     Prosecutor and am prepared to make the following representation about

Page 2570

 1     their provenance.

 2             Three of the exhibits, P186, 190, and 192, were provided to the

 3     OTP by the Republika Srpska Ministry of Interior on the 13th of December,

 4     2004.  They were provided to the investigator --

 5     Investigator Finn Tollefsen at the Banja Luka field office on that date.

 6     The government of the RS represented to the OTP that these three

 7     documents as well as a large number of other documents handed over that

 8     day were found in the archives of the Drina Corps by the Ministry of the

 9     Interior.

10             With respect to the two remaining documents, P188 and P189, they

11     were obtained from the archives of the East Bosnia Corps located in

12     Bijeljina.  They were obtained from that archive during an investigative

13     mission by staff of the OTP which took place between the 17th and 18th of

14     May, 2004.

15             P189 is particularly significant in that, on its face, it

16     purports to be an order of Mr. Mladic and relates to events including the

17     establishment of the detention camps in Eastern Bosnia during the period

18     Susica was established.

19             Earlier today I provided the Mladic Defence with a hard copy of

20     P189 as well as 65 ter 06931.  It is a confidential VRS order number

21     18/28-6, dated the 12th of June, 1992.  Mr. Mladic refers to this

22     document in his order, which is P189.  I have asked the Mladic Defence to

23     give further consideration as to whether they do in fact challenge the

24     authenticity of P189.  I note that 65 ter 6931 contains several

25     handwritten endorsements by people that worked closely with Mr. Mladic.

Page 2571

 1     It may assist them in deciding whether to maintain their challenge.

 2             Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution also tenders 6931 from

 3     the bar.  I do so for two reasons:  As the document is incorporated into

 4     P189, the Chamber having sight of that document will be assisted in not

 5     only better understanding P189 but in assessing its authenticity.

 6             And with respect to that document it was recovered from the

 7     archives of the 1st Krajina Corps during an investigative mission in

 8     February of 1998.  The Prosecution submits that the fact that a document

 9     referenced in P189 was recovered from a completely different archive is

10     also a matter that is relevant to its authenticity.

11             Those are my submissions, Your Honour.  Thank you for giving me

12     the time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

14             I understood the position of the Defence yesterday to be that

15     they said, well, prove the authenticity, but that there was no specific

16     challenge yet to the authenticity.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would -- we would kindly ask now

18     to be taken some -- given some time to respond to these, only I want to

19     emphasise that on the contrary what my friend across said on page 2, line

20     14, that -- that that's the order Mr. Mladic and relates to events

21     including the establishment of detention camp Eastern Bosnia during the

22     period Susica was established.

23             On the contrary, the witness confirmed yesterday that this order

24     has nothing to do with the establishment.  It was issued after the

25     establishment of Susica camp.  So this claim is completely wrong and does

Page 2572

 1     not --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  At least is --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- was not supported by the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is challenged by the Defence.

 5             Could I first ask one question to Mr. Groome in relation to the

 6     authenticity.

 7             P189 -- let me see.  One second, please.  P189, Mr. Groome, you

 8     say how you obtained it.  That means that the original is available?  You

 9     know, as far as signatures are concerned, sometimes originals are of

10     better value than copies.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would note that it does not appear to

12     have the signature --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. GROOME:  -- of just his name, and I would have to investigate

15     whether the archive -- we did not take the original.  We took, I believe,

16     a copy, or were given a copy by the government, but I could investigate

17     whether the original has been maintained by them.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh.  I was mainly thinking -- I now do remember it

19     was kind of a telefax script type of document.  I'm not saying that you

20     should at this moment make further endeavours.  I think it's now fully --

21     you have explained where you obtained them.  It's now for the Defence to

22     come up with a detailed challenge of the authenticity, if they wish to --

23     if they wish to persist in that matter.

24             Mr. Lukic, we want to keep our MFI lists as short as possible.

25     When do you think you could tell us whether there's any specific

Page 2573

 1     challenge to the authenticity --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We have five or six filings due on Friday, so if it's

 3     possible to do it after the weekend.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  After the weekend.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And in order not to spoil the whole of your weekend,

 7     Mr. Lukic, should we make it Tuesday, morning?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Tuesday midday?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, that's fine.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that deadline is set and the Chamber

12     will then decide after that as quickly as possible.

13             There was another matter I do understand the Defence wishes to

14     raise.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Before we begin with the next

16     witness, I do have a procedural matter that relates --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You will take the next witness --

18             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I do understand.  Yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  Mr. Vullimay.

21             We do have a procedural matter that relates to this witness.  We

22     did not receive the list of documents to be used in direct examination

23     for this witness until less than 48 hours before his scheduled testimony.

24     On 4 September 2012, at transcript page T2160, Your Honour stated that

25     the guidance of the Chamber as it pertained to disclosure of lists of

Page 2574

 1     exhibits for witnesses, and as I understood Your Honours, the expectation

 2     was that the list of documents to be used in direct examination of

 3     witnesses were to be provided at least seven days before the witness is

 4     to testify.  And this was after the Defence had addressed the Chamber

 5     with the problem for documents for another witness of mine that were not

 6     sent until a day or so before the testimony.

 7             Now while I've exerted more time to prepare for this witness -

 8     and I am prepared for this witness - I do need additional guidance or

 9     perhaps an order from the Chamber to ensure that with respect to other

10     witnesses these ground rules that have been set by this Chamber are

11     obeyed and that the parties know what recourse they have if they are not

12     obeyed to the detriment of one party.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Prosecution.  Ms. Bibles.

14             MS. BIBLES:  Good morning, Your Honours.

15             Your Honours, Mr. Vulliamy was originally scheduled to one of the

16     first segment witnesses in this case, and as such when we filed our list

17     of witnesses that were being to be part of that first segment, I believe

18     that was in April or May, we included a very extensive list of possible

19     exhibits that would be used with that witness.  So that list did go over

20     to the Defence months ago.  We have paired that potential pool of

21     exhibits down.  We've narrowed that dramatically and that's the list that

22     we gave 48 hours ago or about 48 hours ago.  I think that was on Monday.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It was a reduced list of a more extensive list which

24     you provided earlier.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2575

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  [Microphone not activated].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That would explain it, Your Honours.  Wrong button.

 5             Your Honours, the list that was provided, I believe, on May the

 6     4th was an extensive list that did not have anything more than the

 7     numbers of exhibits listed.  Many of these were exhibits that had nothing

 8     to do with this witness that I did have to review and I did go through

 9     and I did eliminate.  We have approximately six or seven that have now

10     bene removed from the list and there are exhibits that are now on the

11     list that were not on this original list that was sent in May of 2012, so

12     I am well aware of that list and had spent a great time going through it

13     since we could not distinguish the documents by merely their numbers

14     being listed on the list, and I had to go through each one of them and

15     determine that a greater part of them had nothing to do with this

16     witness.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, let's -- let's cut matters short.

18             Wouldn't you think that it would have been appropriate if you

19     reduce a list considerably - and the Chamber is not at this moment in a

20     position to see whether there are any irrelevant documents on that list,

21     at least I do understand that the numbers which identify the documents

22     were there.  But wouldn't you think that it would have been appropriate

23     to provide seven days before the start of the testimony the new list?

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, certainly that is the best practices

25     and that's what we're shooting for.  In --

Page 2576

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I said wouldn't it have been appropriate, and then

 2     you said that would be the best practice.  That -- it seems that you are

 3     not taking my comment as seriously as I intended to send it to you.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I apologise for that.  I certainly take

 5     it very seriously.

 6             This witness has testified many times before ICTY, and there are

 7     considerable number of exhibits that are attached to him, both as

 8     associated exhibits and a great deal of videos.  We have paired that

 9     number down dramatically.  And I agree with you, and we should have, and

10     it would have been been appropriate to have produced that narrowed list

11     seven days in advance, but we have narrowed the list very, very

12     dramatically from the original list and from what has ever been used --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, I'm going to interrupt you.  Of course

14     it's appreciated that you narrowed down the list.  But at the same time,

15     if the Defence still has to work on an extensive list, then you are

16     wasting the Defence's time and you should avoid that to happen.

17             MS. BIBLES:  We will do so, Your Honour.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, the seven days, I think, was clear, and

20     I think where we made an exception, a possible exception, was when,

21     during proofing, new matters would come up.  Now you're describing a

22     situation which is different from the ones in which the Chamber accepted

23     that the list would be amended.  The Prosecution should keep this clearly

24     in mind:  The seven days was our instruction.

25             Any other matter?  If not, then could the next witness be

Page 2577

 1     escorted into the courtroom.

 2             I take it that the OTP called it was Mr. Edward Vullimay as its

 3     next witness.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Vulliamy.  Would you please put on

 7     your earphones --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and could you stand for another second.  Before

10     you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.

11     The text is handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite you to make

12     that solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.  I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vulliamy.  Please be seated.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, you will first be examined by

18     Ms. Bibles.  Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution.  You find her to

19     your right.

20             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

21                           WITNESS:  EDWARD VULLIAMY

22                           Examination by Ms. Bibles:

23             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Can I ask you to please state your full name for the record?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  It is Edward Sebastian Vulliamy.

Page 2578

 1        Q.   Is it true that you've previously provided written statements to

 2     the Office of the Prosecutor and that you previously testified before

 3     this Tribunal?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.

 5        Q.   Among the previous times in which you've appeared, did you

 6     testify in the Stakic case between the 16th and 18th of September of

 7     2002?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Have you had a chance to review the transcript of your testimony

10     in Stakic prior to today?

11        A.   Yes, I have recently.

12        Q.   Can you confirm that the transport accurately reflects your

13     testimony at that time?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15        Q.   If you were asked today about the matters that were asked during

16     your testimony in Stakic, would your answers be the same today as they

17     were then?

18        A.   Yes, they would.  And anything with which I can help the Court.

19        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the

20     truthfulness and accurateness of your testimony in Stakic?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, 65 ter 28381 is Mr. Vulliamy's

23     testimony in the Stakic case.  However, it has been redacted as described

24     in the 92 ter motion that was filed.  In that transcript, we have also

25     used grey to indicate the areas of the portion of the transcript that the

Page 2579

 1     Defence asked be included in their reply to our original motion.  At this

 2     time I tender 65 ter exhibit 28381.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I've no objection to the document

 5     being marked for identification.  However, I would need the guidance of

 6     the Chamber as to -- in the past, at least with documents that the

 7     Defence has used, the Chamber has required that they be translated into

 8     Serbian -- or B/C/S I should say, the official language -- the official

 9     designation of that language in this Tribunal.  This document does not

10     have a translation into B/C/S and it's 2- and I believe -79 or -76 pages

11     long, and it -- if it consists of evidence and testimony of this witness,

12     I believe that the -- my understanding of the prior practice of this

13     Chamber is that this would have to be translated.

14             So again, no objection to being marked for identification, but

15     unless the Chamber has more guidance for me I would ask for it to be

16     translated before it's accepted into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, in terms of previous testimony used as

19     a 92 ter statement, it's my understanding that there is the B/C/S audio

20     of the testimony and that the written transcript has not been required in

21     the past.  I do believe this is the first transcript that we have

22     admitted in this particular trial.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will MFI the transcript.

Page 2580

 1             And, Mr. Ivetic, if you could give the Chamber examples of where

 2     transcripts were translated into B/C/S before being used, because you

 3     were talking about documents, and, of course, this is a very specific

 4     kind of a document - this is a transcript - where, I think, it's known to

 5     everyone that the B/C/S audio does exist.  So if you could provide us

 6     with examples of transcripts being translated and then provided in hard

 7     copy, the Chamber would appreciate that.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I know of none offhand.  The documents I was

 9     referring were tendered exhibits that were in English as an original

10     language.  I would note, however, that the B/C/S audio, it's my

11     understanding, is not linked to this exhibit for purposes of the record.

12     That would perhaps be another way.  I am thinking in terms of the -- my

13     understanding of Your Honours' ruling with respect to having documents

14     translated was that the official record needed to have both languages of

15     the documents and therefore if -- if there's an audio -- if the audio is

16     introduced into the record that might resolve the issue.  That's why I

17     was asking for more instructions from the Chamber on this specific issue.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll consider that.  But I think it would

19     have been wiser that you would have introduced the matter as a transcript

20     issue rather than a document issue, which would have focussed our

21     discussion immediately on the matter you apparently want to raise.

22             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28381 becomes Exhibit P199,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

Page 2581

 1             Ms. Bibles, please proceed.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, with your leave I will read a summary

 3     of Mr. Vulliamy's written testimony.  The actual evidence is, of course,

 4     available to the public in the form of this transcript.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 7             Edward Vullimay worked as a journalist for the London based "The

 8     Guardian" newspaper in 1992.  By July of 1992, Mr. Vulliamy was aware of

 9     the presence of a camp called Omarska in northern Bosnia when he heard

10     Radovan Karadzic publicly deny rumours about the camp and invited the

11     media to see this camp.  Mr. Vulliamy went to Belgrade in July of 1992,

12     the end of July, and was -- with other reports was flown by the military

13     to Pale where he spoke directly with Karadzic who promised to grant

14     access to Omarska camp in Prijedor, as well as other camps.  Mr. Vulliamy

15     and Penny Marshall travelled by vehicle with a military escort in the

16     Republika Srpska and a VRS officer Milutinovic.  In Prijedor, they saw

17     massive destruction of the village of Kozarac and Milutinovic explained

18     that 40.000 Muslims had decided to leave the area.

19             The journalists had a long meeting in Prijedor with a group

20     comprised of local Serb leaders and military leaders who tried to

21     dissuade them from visiting Omarska.  While waiting outside this meeting,

22     Mr. Vulliamy saw a long line of Muslim women lined up and he spoke with

23     them and learned that they were trying to find out information about

24     their husbands, brothers, and sons, who had either disappeared or been

25     detained.  At the end of this, the journalists were taken to Omarska and

Page 2582

 1     were given a very restricted tour, seeing only a group of men brought

 2     into the canteen for food.  Mr. Vulliamy's testimony was that the

 3     condition of the men was shocking.  When Mr. Vulliamy attempted to

 4     venture out to a hangar in the location of the detainees, he was stopped

 5     and a confrontation occurred with the end result being that he was not

 6     allowed to see the parts of Omarska that he was most interested in

 7     viewing.

 8             The journalists were then taken to Trnopolje where the witness

 9     described in detail a barbed wire fence and behind it a crowded group of

10     men, many who were skeletal and in a serious state of decay.  The witness

11     testified to the conditions in the detention facilities and the treatment

12     of non-Serb detainees in these facilities.  After visiting the Trnopolje

13     camp, the journalists left for Belgrade.

14             In Belgrade, the witness described a conversation that he had

15     with Nikola Koljevic in which Koljevic makes fun for the western media

16     for having been so focussed on Sarajevo and not finding the camps for so

17     long.

18             On the 7th of August, 1992, the witness's article on the visit to

19     the camps was published in the British newspaper, "The Guardian," and he

20     describes in his testimony the dramatic response to the article and the

21     impact of this discovery.

22             The witness describes that he went into the Republika Srpska in

23     mid-August of 1992 to try to determine where the refugees were going

24     after Croatia closed its doors to refugees.  He ended up in a deportation

25     convoy of Muslims from Sanski Most and travelled with them through

Page 2583

 1     Banja Luka and over Mount Vlasic and through the front lines to Travnik.

 2             The witness describes returning to Bosnia after the Dayton

 3     Agreement was signed and he observed the conditions and the denial of the

 4     camps' existence, the very camps he had visited in 1992.

 5             Your Honours, this concludes the summary.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My colleague noted that on page 13, line 24,

 9     that the transcript is not complete, but it will be reviewed on the basis

10     of the audio, I take it.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, I would like to begin by having you update your

14     professional biography in terms of what you've done since 2002.

15        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Briefly I moved back to the United Kingdom

16     and worked as a general reporter for the -- mostly for "The Observer"

17     newspaper, related to "The Guardian" on a number of issues, I -- I

18     researched in some depth and wrote a book about the terrible drug war in

19     Mexico and spent much time down there.  Perhaps more relevantly, I also

20     kept up research on the matters that are before the Court today over a

21     period of years and worked towards a book on the aftermath of -- of this

22     discovery of the camps which was published which involved, as it were,

23     going back over a lot of the ground since I made the statement -- the

24     testimony which has been entered before you.  And working based in London

25     for the same newspaper doing the same job, basically.

Page 2584

 1        Q.   I'd like you to go back to July of 1992.  Do you recall what it

 2     was that you heard Karadzic describe about how was being held in the

 3     camps in northern Bosnia?

 4        A.   Well, the initial denial from Dr. Karadzic was that there were no

 5     civilians being held in these camps.  And this was a point he stressed,

 6     as well as denying the conditions that were alleged to pertain in Omarska

 7     according to the reports that were at issue at the end of July when he

 8     came to London, and Trnopolje which had also been -- the name of which

 9     had been put into the public domain.  As we proceeded, the -- guard me on

10     how far you want me to go in answering the question.  But initially the

11     idea was -- the -- the conditions reported were untrue, there were no

12     civilians, and as we got to further down the line, there were various

13     other, as it were, various other accounts given that there were prisoners

14     of war here, that military fighters were in this place, civilians in

15     that.  But initially the idea was that there are no civilians being

16     detained in any camps.  That was the line we were being given.

17        Q.   In your testimony, and it's on e-court page 11, you describe that

18     you flew from Belgrade to Pale in early August.  Could you please

19     describe for us who transported you by air?

20        A.   Yes.  After some five days of being delayed in Belgrade, we were

21     transported by a military helicopter which I presumed, because we were in

22     Belgrade, to be a federal military helicopter, but I don't know if it was

23     a Bosnian Serb military helicopter.  It was a military helicopter and we

24     were being transported by men in para -- in military fatigues.  And that

25     was on the morning of the 3rd of August, 1992.

Page 2585

 1        Q.   As you flew over Eastern Bosnia, were you able to see the ground

 2     from your position in the helicopter?

 3        A.   Yes.  I've written and testified to this.  We got a view out of a

 4     window of a fairly shocking landscape below of towns and villages which

 5     had been completely incinerated and appeared to be deserted.

 6        Q.   Just sort of jump ahead in time, were you ever in that same part

 7     of the country after Dayton was signed?

 8        A.   Yes.  This was logically Eastern Bosnia, and looking back, I can

 9     figure out that it was the -- it was a terrain behind the -- the -- the

10     towns on the Drina of Visegrad and around that area.  The hinterland

11     behind there.  And Foca.  And I did go back in the beginning of 1996 in

12     the first opportunity that I could after the war was over to research

13     what had been going on in those -- in those places that one could only

14     see in 1992 from the air, and indeed it was as one had worse feared from

15     looking at them - I worked mostly on Visegrad on that point - and, yes,

16     there were stories of -- and proven stories of families being locked in

17     houses and incinerated alive, people thrown off the bridge at -- in that

18     town and mass executions there, and the systematic mass violation of

19     women at camps set up for that purpose.  So in the hindsight in 1996, one

20     was able to make some sense of the -- of what we saw from the helicopter.

21     Yes.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I would ask, Your Honours, that the other side

23     direct me to where in the 65 ter summary Visegrad is identified among the

24     areas that would be lead for this witness.  In item 4 --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I stop you there.  The problem is not

Page 2586

 1     with the Prosecution.  The problem is with the witness.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing you were asked:  Were you in that

 4     same part of the country after Dayton was signed?

 5             So I think the answer should be yes or no.  But what Ms. Bibles

 6     would like to know what you saw, noticed, who you met, what the weather

 7     was, et cetera, wait for her next question.  And then it will be clear to

 8     you what specifically she would like to know about your later visit to

 9     the area.

10             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, this is, if I say the problem is with

12     the witness, but you are in a position to avoid --

13             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that it happens.  Clear, focussed questions will

15     avoid this kind of problems.

16             Please proceed.

17             THE WITNESS:  I apologise, Your Honours.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   I want to direct your attention to August 3rd of 1992 and your

20     meeting with Radovan Karadzic in Pale.  Which places did he promise you

21     access to?

22        A.   We met with Dr. Karadzic and he guaranteed us access to Omarska

23     and to Trnopolje.

24        Q.   Were these the locations that you asked to see?

25        A.   Yes, with special emphasis on Omarska which was the main place at

Page 2587

 1     issue.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us how you travelled to Prijedor -- excuse me, how

 3     you travelled from Pale to Banja Luka?  Could you describe what kind of

 4     vehicles you were in.

 5        A.   Yes.  We were in initially a military vehicle, a khaki

 6     camouflaged truck, people-mover, with -- accompanied by - and it was a

 7     convoy - accompanied by in various vehicles, two, perhaps three:

 8     Vice-president Koljevic and a Bosnian Serb television crew wearing

 9     military fatigues, some of them, and a military Court.

10        Q.   Would you have been able to travel into the areas of northern

11     Bosnia without the military escort?

12        A.   I very much doubt it.  Because it was a war zone, as everybody

13     kept telling us.  That was obvious.  And the journey from Pale to -- as

14     it turned out to be Banja Luka, turned out to go through a very narrow

15     corridor across northern Bosnia which would absolutely have required a

16     military escort and, indeed, military permission to be there at all.

17        Q.   Once you were in Banja Luka, did you become aware of a military

18     representative being appointed to escort you?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, just -- sorry to interrupt.  Isn't this

20     in detail in the transcript of the testimony in the Stakic case?  So we

21     do not need to hear again what is clearly on the transcript.

22             So I wonder whether it was because of the colour of the cars that

23     you did put those questions, that there was no free travelling, I think

24     that transpires from all of that as well and I think is not in dispute at

25     this moment, that people were not freely moving around.

Page 2588

 1             So, therefore, could you please focus on what we do not know yet

 2     from the transcript.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, in Stakic -- the difference between his

 4     testimony in Stakic and this one is we have more emphasis on some of the

 5     military features than were highlighted or detailed in his testimony.

 6     I'll fine-tune my questions in those particular areas.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Keep in the back of your mind our

 8     observations.

 9             MS. BIBLES:

10        Q.   Were you aware of a military representative being appointed

11     specifically to escort your visit?

12        A.   Apart from the people who had been with us all along, not until

13     he arrived, and that would have been on the morning of August the 5th

14     when we were in Banja Luka and we were introduced to Colonel Milutinovic.

15        Q.   And could you tell us whether you have followed his career since

16     the time you were with him on August 5th?

17        A.   Well, because he played an important part in the day, I obviously

18     asked, well, you know, what happened to him, and in casual conversations,

19     and someone said that they heard he had gone to Han Pijesak to work on

20     the General Staff under General Mladic but I had no way of confirming

21     that.  It was just as a matter of interest that I asked and I still don't

22     know if that's true.

23        Q.   I want to go now to the meeting that had you in Prijedor with the

24     Crisis Staff.  Could you describe for us the interaction between the

25     military who were present in the meeting and the political leaders in

Page 2589

 1     Prijedor?

 2        A.   Well, Milutinovic took us to the -- to the municipal headquarters

 3     in Prijedor, and the body was assembled, Crisis Staff, crisis committee,

 4     whatever we call it, and it was made up of three -- one police chief,

 5     two -- the -- the president and the vice-president, and the military

 6     component in that committee was introduced to us as a Colonel Arsic.

 7        Q.   Can you describe for us once you went to Omarska the contact

 8     between the military escorts that were with you and the Omarska staff?

 9        A.   Yes, we were taken to Omarska by Colonel Milutinovic in a vehicle

10     that he now boarded that had been rented by ITN, and then he handed us

11     over, where Drljaca, the police chief, was in another vehicle, and then

12     he handed us over to them and to the camp commander before the briefings

13     began.

14        Q.   And can you describe what the relationship was between

15     Milutinovic and the Omarska staff?

16        A.   Well, at the time we weren't making any particular distinctions

17     between them, but, I mean, it appeared to be seamless.

18        Q.   You've previously testified that you saw a group of detainees at

19     Omarska.  Is this depicted on film?

20        A.   Yes, ITN were filming in Omarska that day.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we will now play a portion of the

22     video-clip with 65 ter 2239 B using Sanction.  Your Honours, this is a

23     clip that is six minutes long, and in the interest of time my intention

24     is to show Mr. Vulliamy just a few short extracts of the six-minute clip

25     and then at the end tender the entire clip.  It is a video that

Page 2590

 1     Mr. Vulliamy viewed in proofing, and while it is almost identical to

 2     footage in associated exhibit 65 ter 22393A, which is an associated

 3     exhibit, it does have a few minutes of additional footage involving

 4     Milutinovic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could you just check with the transcript.  Were

 6     you referring to the video you intend to play as 22393B?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Yes.  22393B.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.  Now I'm looking at my -- yes.

 9     Now those are only associated exhibits.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. BIBLES:

12        Q.   Ms. Stewart, if you could play the video from the beginning and

13     pause it at 1 minute, 11 seconds?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have -- do you want us to listen to the

15     audio as well?  Then it should be played twice in accordance with the

16     newest rules or at least the draft rules on the production of video

17     material in court.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.

19             Your Honours, I'll add that the booths do have the transcripts

20     B/C/S and English transcripts of these clips.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we first play the whole of the video and

22     then the second time it will be played where it will be translated in

23     B/C/S as well.  And I would say in the second round, you ask the video to

24     be stopped at a certain time and then ask questions.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2591

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  When I say the whole, I mean the whole selected

 2     portion in 22393B.  Yes.  And that's not the whole of the -- it's not the

 3     entire video.  I do understand that.

 4             Please, let's first look at the footage as a whole.

 5             Mr. Mladic wants to --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps while my colleague is consulting, perhaps I

 7     can ask one question:  I understood counsel to say that the whole video

 8     was going to be tendered, do we then not need to confirm the translation

 9     of the whole video using the new procedure if the whole video is indeed

10     being tendered into evidence and will be relied upon?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think we focus at this moment at the portion

12     to be played today and that we have transcript -- could Mr. Mladic please

13     lower his voice.

14             Mr. Mladic, please.

15             Mr. Ivetic, I suggest that we start because it will be without

16     translation at this moment, and in the second round I take it

17     consultation will be concluded.

18             Let's play the footage you have selected, Ms. Bibles.

19                            [Video-clip played]

20             "Ms. Marshall:  The Bosnian Serbs don't call Omarska a

21     concentration camp.  Come in, they challenged ITN, and see it for

22     yourselves.  Under Serbian armed guard for our own protection, a

23     three-day journey ended here, at the gates of a disused mine in northern

24     Bosnia.  Here we were shown only several hundred of the two and a half

25     thousand prisoners or Muslim men at Omarska, we were told, to be

Page 2592

 1     interrogated.  Those found guilty of fighting Serbs were then sent to

 2     prisoners of war camps; innocents to refugee camps.

 3             "This is all we saw of the prisoners and of Omarska itself.  They

 4     never spoke; the only voices, those of the guards ordering them to eat

 5     faster and leave.

 6             "How are you treated, what are the conditions, I asked.

 7             "Prisoner:  I don't want to tell lies.  I can't speak the truth.

 8     Thank you for coming."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Bibles.

10             MS. BIBLES:  We'll proceed with the second playing of the

11     transcript [sic] --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MS. BIBLES:  -- now.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll look at it again and it will now be translated

15     into B/C/S.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, did you speak with any detainees other than the one

19     that was just depicted in the video at Omarska?

20        A.   Yes, I spoke to him.  I'm in the film.  And I did speak to one

21     other, yes.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we will now play another portion of

23     this same video-clip from 1 minute 39 seconds, to 2 minutes, 22 seconds.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that known under the same 65 ter number?

25             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.

Page 2593

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2                            [Video-clip played]

 3              "Ms. Marshall:  And then the men left back to wherever they'd

 4     come from, away from our cameras and questions, hidden from the United

 5     Nations and the Red Cross who have been denied access to Omarska, hidden

 6     until now from the world.  We were not allowed to follow them to their

 7     living accomodation, what appeared to be the larger of the two buildings

 8     to see the other 2.000 detainees and how they lived.

 9             "What's your reason?

10             "Serbian Woman:  I'm trying to do my best here.

11             "Ms. Marshall: ... not to show us where they live?

12             "Mr. Williams:  When Dr. Karadzic...  Why are you not fulfilling

13     Dr. Karadzic's promise to us?

14             "Serbian Woman:  He promised us something else and said:  'You

15     can do this and this and that, and not that.'

16             "Ms. Marshall:  We've seen nothing.  We see one dining room with

17     80 prisoners."

18             MS. BIBLES:  And Your Honours, under the protocol we'll go back

19     and play that segment again.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will now be translated.

21             Please proceed.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MS. BIBLES:

24        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, we've stopped this clip at 2 minutes -- sorry.

25     We've stopped this clip at 2 minutes 22 seconds.  Do you recognise the

Page 2594

 1     man on the left side of the screen wearing the hat?

 2        A.   Yes, that's Colonel Milutinovic with whom we'd been all day.

 3        Q.   What position did Milutinovic take with respect to your request

 4     to go to other areas of Omarska?

 5        A.   We were trying to get into the hangar where we suspected the

 6     atrocities to be taking place, and he was one of the three men - two of

 7     them here - who stopped us from doing so, and they were backed up by

 8     guards who are behind them who took the safety catches off their guns as

 9     we tried to approach the building.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, could I invite you to wait a second

11     before you start answering the question because the translators and the

12     transcribers need some time to first finish the question and then -- and

13     your speed of speech, if that could be reduced.

14             THE WITNESS:  I'll wait and slow down, sir.  I'm sorry.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

16             MS. BIBLES:

17        Q.   At the time that you were at the Omarska depicted here, could you

18     determine whether the detainees were military soldiers?

19        A.   At the time they appeared -- there was no reason to suppose that

20     they were soldiers.  No reason whatsoever.

21        Q.   At the time you were at Omarska, did you see any women detainees?

22        A.   Yes.  Whether they were detainees or not at the time, we were

23     unable exactly to tell because the only women we saw at the time were

24     serving the meal, if that's what you could call it.  But my research has

25     subsequently found they were doing other things.

Page 2595

 1        Q.   I'll -- go on then.  Did you, in your later research and

 2     interviews, determine that there were, in fact, women detainees?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this point I would object and ask

 4     where this evidence is identified in the Rule 65 ter summary or in the

 5     prior transcripts in five cases that this witness has testified to.  It's

 6     a new area.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And what exactly is it?  Because women serving food,

 8     I think, was in the transcript of the Stakic case.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honour, we're talking about research --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Research.

11             MR. IVETIC:  -- and the results of his research.  Research was

12     identified but not the results thereof or the bases therefore and that

13     has not been disclosed to us.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we -- Ms. Bibles, you asked the witness to

15     provide us with what -- what he determined on the basis of his research.

16     Let's take it step by step and let's see whether the witness has any --

17     gained any knowledge after that and not ask for conclusions yet.

18             At the same time, if you could respond to Mr. Ivetic's complaint,

19     as a matter of fact, that he is not aware of any research you would ask

20     about.  Please do that first.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             We did provide that the witness would testify about statements

23     made to him by various officials, people on all sides of the conflicts,

24     as well as international organisations regarding the nature and purpose

25     of the conflict.  He has testified regarding the fact that he went back

Page 2596

 1     into Bosnia after -- actually throughout the war and then after Dayton

 2     was signed, that he has spoken with a great deal of individuals regarding

 3     the events at Omarska.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, the Chamber will carefully monitor your

 6     next questioning but doesn't stop you at this moment.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Did you subsequent to your 1992 visit to Omarska interview people

 9     and other organisations with respect to whether or not women detainees

10     were present in Omarska?

11        A.   Yes in detail and at length, and I have concluded that they were

12     being kept prisoner and for serial violation above the canteen where we

13     were filming and where they were serving the soup.  They were being

14     raped.

15        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, after Omarska, how were you transported to

16     Trnopolje?

17        A.   We were -- we were evicted from Omarska and we were transported

18     to Trnopolje in the company of Milutinovic, but we didn't see him after

19     we arrived and we were in ITN's vehicle by that point.

20        Q.   And were portions of your time at Trnopolje filmed?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we will now play another portion of

23     this same video, 65 ter 22393B.  We would play a clip from 2 minutes, 22

24     seconds, to 4 minutes 40 seconds.

25                            [Video-clip played]

Page 2597

 1             "Ms. Marshall:  And so we left.  Our hosts fulfilling their

 2     promise to show us the second camp, Trnopolje, where 2.000 refugees are

 3     living.  We were not prepared for what we saw and heard there.

 4             "Several hundred said that they had arrived from Omarska that

 5     morning or from another detention camp, released to this refugee centre,

 6     after days, sometimes months of interrogation.  We asked if the

 7     allegations of beating in the detention centres were true.

 8             "Prisoner:  We've seen much about that.  We've seen people were

 9     hungry, that's true.

10             "Prisoner:  I'm not sure that I'm allowed about that, you know.

11     I'm...  Can you understand me?

12             "Ms. Marshall:  Tell us the truth.

13             "Prisoner:  I'm afraid.  250.

14             "Ms. Marshall:  Killed?  What happened?

15             "Ms. Marshall:  In this vicious civilian war where atrocities

16     against Serbs as well as Muslims occur daily, finding the truth isn't

17     easy.  We ourselves saw no evidence of beating on any refugee here.  We

18     only heard the allegations, allegations even camp doctors seemed unable

19     to substantiate in front of our Serb hosts.

20             "Does he have any cases of people who were being beaten from the

21     other camps?

22             "Interpreter:  Many.

23             Ms. Marshall:  Many?  Would he be happier speaking his own

24     language?

25             "Interpreter:  Yes.

Page 2598

 1             "Ms. Marshall:  I was able, however, to smuggle out a roll of

 2     film, and the man who took these pictures and gave it to me said he would

 3     be killed if caught.  He begged me to check if in three days he was still

 4     alive."

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we'll now we'll now replay that

 6     segment for B/C/S translation.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 8                            [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I'm looking and I see that it may be a

10     good time for a break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Bibles, apart from that, just to clarify

12     the record, this video was played twice.  It is only the first time that

13     the English original appears on the transcript.  When we play it again it

14     is orally translated into French and into B/C/S, but the transcript does

15     not, again, reflect the English words spoken in this video footage.

16             Could I, apart from that, ask you, your last estimate was two

17     hours, I think.  Are you on track?

18             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  I do not expect to take that full

19     time, but --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, if we take a break, we will

21     resume at five minutes to 11.00, that you'll conclude not any later than

22     five minutes to 12.00.

23             MS. BIBLES:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  We take a break for 20 minutes.

25             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom first.

Page 2599

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, if you're ready, please proceed.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Could you tell us the name of the doctor that we just saw on the

11     video?

12        A.   In Trnopolje, his name is Idriz Mrdjanic [phoen].

13        Q.   Is the clip that we just saw, was that the first time you were

14     aware of the presence of another camp in Prijedor?

15        A.   Yes.  When we arrived at the fence, we heard about what for me

16     was the third camp of which I was aware -- sorry, the fourth camp of

17     which I was aware, which was called Keraterm, where the men behind the

18     wire were talking about a massacre.  I called it Kerata.  At the time I

19     wrongly noted it, but I now know it to be Keraterm.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Have you reviewed the entire six minutes of this clip

21     of video that we've seen portions of today?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Does it accurately depict the scenes at Omarska and Trnopolje on

24     the 5th of August, 1992?

25        A.   The clips of Omarska show the little that we saw and the clips of

Page 2600

 1     Trnopolje accurately reflect what I recall from there, yes.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 3     65 ter 22393B.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I understood we do have a B/C/S translation of that

 6     so then there will be no objection to that being tendered in its

 7     entirety.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22393B becomes Exhibit P200,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P200 is admitted into evidence.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would ask that we be shown 65 ter

13     06981.  And I'd ask that we see page 1 of both the B/C/S original and the

14     English translation.

15        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, you've testified that your conversation with

16     Radovan Karadzic was the 3rd of August of 1992 regarding your visits to

17     these camps?

18        A.   Yes.  3rd of August, we met Karadzic.

19        Q.   And could you describe whether you were with -- how many were in

20     your group of reporters, how many journalists?

21        A.   It was myself plus Penny Marshall and Ian Williams, two from ITN

22     reporters, and two crews.  It would have been a total of -- seven or

23     eight of us in total.

24        Q.   And referring to the second-to-the last line of the document that

25     you see in front of you, regarding the chief of security.

Page 2601

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   Could you describe the role that Milutinovic had with you as

 3     being consistent with this order?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  Lack of foundation and

 5     calls for speculation.  First of all, we have not established when is the

 6     first time this gentleman saw this order, as I believe in testimony that

 7     I've read, it will make -- be the determinative factor.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please find a foundation for -- and

 9     perhaps first explore the matter without referring to a certain document,

10     pointing the witness at a part of the document.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, my intent was not, I think as counsel

12     is alluding, to tender this document.  Simply to mark it for

13     identification at this time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you were asking to describe the role of

15     Milutinovic, whether it was consistent with this order.  I would have

16     started with asking what his role was in this and this context, rather

17     than to first give a document and then compare it with that.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I don't have the page reference, but I

19     believe the witness has already testified to that this morning about the

20     role of Milutinovic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then there's no -- I need a page reference to

22     verify that.  But please proceed at this moment and try to avoid any

23     speculation or -- also try to avoid the witness to read what his answer

24     is supposed to be.

25             MS. BIBLES:

Page 2602

 1        Q.   Did you have a military escort during your time at the camps?

 2        A.   Yes, we were -- we were -- we had a military escort throughout

 3     from Pale, and we were specifically assigned to Colonel Milutinovic in

 4     Banja Luka from the morning of the 5th of August, which the day -- the

 5     day we went to the camps and he accompanied us in our vehicle, explained

 6     the background about what we saw, and accompanied us to the

 7     Municipal Assembly headquarters and to the camps.  And he departed at

 8     some point around the time of our arrival at Trnopolje.  He was there

 9     throughout.

10        Q.   During your time in Prijedor and with the camps, did you have the

11     co-operation of the military forces that -- that you saw?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, at this point I would simply

14     tender or mark this order for identification.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, this witness has not testified

16     as to anything as to documents, so I don't understand why it's being

17     marked for identification with this witness.  I don't believe it's

18     [Overlapping speakers]...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you consider that it's more appropriately

20     tendered as from the bar table because it relates to the same matter?

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.  And then the Defence would have an ability to

22     respond in writing to bar table submissions, as has been the practice in

23     prior cases.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be marked for identification.  The

Page 2603

 1     Chamber will consider whether and at what moment in time it would be

 2     appropriate to seek it -- to tender it from the bar table.  We said at

 3     the end of the -- at a later stage.  At the same time, we are looking

 4     now, repeatedly, at documents which are very directly linked to a

 5     witness, to the testimony of a witness, so we may further consider what

 6     the appropriate timing for such documents is.

 7             Madam Registrar, it would be marked under what number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06981 becomes Exhibit P201,

 9     Your Honours, MFI'd.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P201 keeps that status for the time being.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. BIBLES:

13        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, I'd like to next go through just to ask some

14     follow-up details regarding your mid-August 1992 experiences with the

15     convoy to Travnik.

16             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, this reference is in e-court,

17     pages 85 to 91.

18        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, as you approached the front line on Mount Vlasic,

19     could you describe for us whether there was military activity actually

20     happening at the front line?

21        A.   Yes, as we approached the front line in this convoy, after a

22     terrifying day, we -- the police which had been escorting the convoy

23     essentially turned back.  That was when we, as it were, declared who we

24     were, and we were offered by the police a chance to go back with them.

25     We did not want to do that.  And we were then -- accompanied this convoy

Page 2604

 1     of deportees towards the front lines, with, as I say, extreme

 2     trepidation, and by then we were in the hands -- I mean, this was the

 3     military front line by then, so they would have been fighters, soldiers,

 4     manning the front lines as the convoy went through their front lines,

 5     were stopped at their front lines, their cars taken away from them and

 6     other possessions, and they were sent out across the no man's land, yes.

 7        Q.   And specifically can you describe for us the individuals who were

 8     controlling the front line on the Bosnian Serb side?

 9        A.   They were in uniform, camouflage fatigues.  They were a fairly

10     rough lot.  They were taking, as I say, the cars of the -- of the

11     deportees away, to turn back into the territory through which we'd come.

12     They added to the atmosphere of total fear, I have to say.  I mean, we

13     didn't know where we were going and nor did they, except by then it was

14     obvious we were going across a no man's land which is rule number 1:  You

15     don't cross the lines, you don't do it.  So they were -- yes, they were

16     abrasive, and then we managed to parley with them in order to keep our

17     car by, if you will pardon me for putting it this way but that's how

18     things are, we decided to discuss a football game that team had recently

19     won in a cup final and that defused the situation slightly.

20        Q.   And the individuals you were dealing with, could you describe the

21     uniforms of the individuals that you've just talked about?

22        A.   Military, khaki camouflage fatigues.

23        Q.   In your Stakic testimony, Your Honours, at e-court page roughly

24     91, you describe or you talk about the arrival of the convoy in Travnik.

25     I'd like to ask just a couple of details to follow up.

Page 2605

 1             You have in your testimony talked about the number of people that

 2     were in the convoy, but you didn't mention in your previous testimony the

 3     number of refugees present in Travnik.  Were you able to determine that

 4     when you were in Travnik?

 5        A.   Oh, yes.  While we'd been on the convoy, by definition we had no

 6     idea who or what or where we were going.  It was on the road in the no

 7     man's land that I realised that other people had certainly come this way

 8     before because there were -- well, body parts in the road at one point.

 9     There was fighting on the road.  We were crossing line, shells, landing

10     nearby, and it was mined.  But when we got into Travnik, one got a sense

11     of the scale and regularity of this because as the deportees sought

12     spaces to camp down on the floors of the gymnasium school and other

13     facilities that had been arranged, they -- I mean, there was very little

14     space.  These places were already packed with others.  All of them

15     clearly civilians, families, elderly people, children, and one then

16     obviously got a sense of the scale of what was going on but also its

17     regularity.  It turned out that we had just been yet another night, yet

18     another convoy.

19        Q.   And approximately how many refugees were in Travnik when you

20     arrived?

21        A.   I was -- we were given a figure of something like 36.000 by then.

22     This was mid-August.  I returned to Travnik many times and that figure

23     accumulated with time, right up to 1995.

24        Q.   And then going on, you've testified and you testify in Stakic

25     that you had returned to the area after Dayton and you've continued to

Page 2606

 1     interview people from Prijedor over time.  Are you aware of whether there

 2     are still missing people from Prijedor, and, if so, how many?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  This, I believe, was not disclosed.  It's not in the

 6     Rule 65 ter summary and it was not testified to in any of the prior five

 7     cases, I believe, that the witness - maybe six - that the witness

 8     participated in.  And I don't believe it was disclosed to the Defence in

 9     terms of being able to know what the results of this research is.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, actually, he did testify.

12     Unfortunately, I don't have an e-court number handy.  On the original

13     transcript, it appears to be page 7990.  He describes still the missing

14     people and compares the missing people from Srebrenica and I believe

15     Prijedor.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.

17             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry, it's e-court page 93, if that's --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was quite happy with the transcript page, as

19     a matter of fact.  Was that 7990?

20             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And you say Prijedor people still missing should be

22     discussed there.  Let me have a look.  1996, returned to Prijedor.

23             On that page, the return to Prijedor is dealt with.  And also the

24     witness wanting to go back to Omarska, just after Dayton.  But I do not

25     find, at this moment, at least at this page, anything about persons still

Page 2607

 1     missing in Prijedor, Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  And up above, the witness

 3     describes that he had been commissioned to research and to do a series of

 4     long articles retracing his steps of the war and to try to flesh out --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Where is that?  Could you --

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Lines, if you start --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Which page?

 8             MS. BIBLES:  That same page.  Lines, I believe, it's 1 through --

 9     1 through 10, actually.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He sat together with the editor and what he

11     would do next and retrace some steps of the war.  That is not a clear

12     reference to -- to -- to how many people are still missing in Prijedor

13     after the war, is it?

14             Let me check with my colleagues.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MR. GROOME:  Your mike, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the objection is sustained.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

20     witness at this time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

22             Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I am.  Just one moment to

24     re-adjust myself.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vulliamy, you will now be cross-examined by --

Page 2608

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the

 3     Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 5             MR. IVETIC:  If we can have the assistance of the usher, I have

 6     videos that might be used in cross-examination and the practice has been

 7     to distribute to the Prosecution copies for their convenience as they

 8     have done for us at the beginning of their direct.

 9             And while we're waiting for that --

10        Q.   Mr. Vulliamy, we can proceed since that does not have anything to

11     do with our discussion as of yet.  Sir, as you've heard my name is

12     Dan Ivetic, and while I appreciate that you have testified in several

13     proceedings here, I want to caution you:  Since we both speak the same

14     language, we have to observe a pause between question and answer and

15     permit the court reporter and translator to do their jobs.  I know in the

16     past that has been an issue for both yourself and myself.

17        A.   Thank you, sir.  I've been rightly reprimanded in many -- many

18     directions.

19        Q.   As have I.  Now, likewise, I assure you that if you focus your

20     answers to deal directly with the questions that I pose to you, we will

21     get through this in as little time as possible.  Is that fair, sir?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, you did not ask, but I feel I

24     should give you an estimation of the time that I am going to be using

25     with this witness.  We had previously estimated seven hours, that is no

Page 2609

 1     longer the case, and I anticipate being able to finish within four hours

 2     which would still leave time tomorrow for redirect and anything else with

 3     respect to this witness within the time period that he was made available

 4     to testify.  I know this is in excess of the 2.5 hours that are normally

 5     foreseen for Rule 92 ter witnesses; however, I state that this a case

 6     where we have a three-day transcript of 276 pages as the Rule 92 ter

 7     statement and we have multiple associated and other exhibits with this

 8     witness, and that is why the time that we would be seeking would be in

 9     excess of the 2.5 hours and would be four hours in total.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If everyone tries.  It's best that we conclude

11     tomorrow.  That will be fine.

12             Apart from that, the Prosecution claimed for more time as well,

13     Mr. Ivetic.  Therefore, you may proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Now, sir, first I would like to just briefly go through your

16     background somewhat so we can better understand where you're coming from

17     in particular parts of your testimony.  Am I correct that your

18     educational degrees are in politics, philosophy, and economics?  ?

19        A.   Yes, one of my degrees.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise waiting for the transcript to catch up

21     with us.

22             You said one of your degrees.  Just for completeness, could you

23     tell me about any other degrees that I have missed?

24        A.   The other is in the area of art history, Your Honours.  I'm not

25     sure if it's of interest.

Page 2610

 1        Q.   Am I correct that you have no educational degrees in criminal

 2     justice or police work?

 3        A.   No -- sorry, you are correct:  I don't.

 4        Q.   And at the time that you first went to Bosnia-Herzegovina in

 5     August of 1992, at that time you were not conversant in the

 6     Serbo-Croatian language as it was then called, were you?

 7        A.   No, I could not speak it.  I had pigeon B/C/S, whatever it is it,

 8     by 1995.  I don't speak it now.

 9        Q.   Am I correct that you were reliant upon a translator for the

10     entirety of your visits to Prijedor in August of 1992?

11        A.   During that visit, yes.  There were two translator, principally.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if my recollection serves me well, I've

13     read the answers of all the last three questions, even in detail, pigeon

14     knowledge of -- that's what I've read already.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  There's no need to present

17     repetitious evidence.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   You mentioned the visits -- the one visit, or that visit, if I

20     direct your attention to the visit of February 1996 to Prijedor, were you

21     also reliant upon a translator at that point?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now if we could turn a bit to focus on journalism, which is your

24     profession.  Would you agree with me the proposition that a basic tenant

25     of journalism is to report the facts that you see accurately and

Page 2611

 1     truthfully as a journalist?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And how about the proposition that as a journalist one has to

 4     objectively report the facts.  Would you agree with that, yes or no?

 5        A.   Objectively, yes.

 6        Q.   And I'm waiting for the transcript.  And, again, sir, we have to

 7     pause between question and answer to make the jobs of the court reporter

 8     and translator easier.

 9             Do you consider yourself to be objective as a journalist?

10        A.   Yes.  Objectivity inasmuch as it's fact-specific, yes, I do

11     consider myself objective.

12        Q.   How about in terms of your testimony -- strike that.

13             How in terms of your reporting relating to Bosnia-Herzegovina and

14     here let's limit it to the Prijedor municipality in August of 1992, were

15     you considering yourself to be objective at that point in time?

16        A.   Yes.  I think I've objectively reported what I saw and heard and

17     have done since.  I have not always been neutral over what I have seen

18     and learned.

19        Q.   Okay.  We will explore the differences between those two terms,

20     and I hope to have your intake on some confusing words that I found being

21     attributed through you in print to see if we can sort through this and

22     find out what it is exactly that you mean by distinguishing between

23     "objectivity" and "neutrality."

24              MR. IVETIC:  If we can have Exhibit 1D262 up in e-court.  And

25     this is -- the part that I'm looking at is page 5 of the same towards the

Page 2612

 1     middle of the page.

 2             Sir, while we wait for that, for your information this a

 3     publication of "CounterPunch" magazine, and I'm not interested in what

 4     these authors, Mr. Herman and Mr. Peterson, say about the conflict in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I am interested in certain quotations that they

 6     attribute to you --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             Madam Registrar informs me that the document you want on the

 9     screen is not in e-court.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, the information we have is that it is

11     in e-court.  We've been dealing with the technical services for a number

12     of days now with problems with e-court.  I do have hard copies, enough I

13     believe for Your Honours, and the booths, the witness, and opposing

14     counsel.  If we can proceed on that bases then we can hopefully have the

15     document released in e-court or whatever is the holdup technically but

16     still proceed with the testimony in an efficient manner.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We can proceed in this way.  At the same time it

18     should be explored why you think it's in e-court and why the Registry

19     thinks it's not in e-court.  That should be established quickly, but

20     let's proceed on the base of the hard copies to be distributed by the

21     Usher.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   And sir, while that's being distributed, again I, for purposes of

24     information this is a printout from "CounterPunch" magazine and it's

25     dated 2009.  The authors of the article are Mr. Herman and Mr. Peterson,

Page 2613

 1     and I'm not that interested in what they have to say about the conflict,

 2     but I want to ask you about certain citations or quotations that they

 3     attribute to yourself to see if that is, indeed, your position as to

 4     objectivity and neutrality or if they have misreported it and, if so,

 5     that you can clarify for us.

 6             And for your benefit, it's on page 5.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, my colleague indicates that I guess

 8     copies were not given to the booths.  Three copies were given to the

 9     Prosecution.  I had made copies for the booths, so I don't know if that

10     would assist the translators since it's not up on the screens.  I will be

11     guided by Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We still have the old fashioned way of using the --

13             MR. IVETIC:  Spoken word.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Oh.  The ELMO.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the ELMO.  I had forgotten even the name of it.

17     It's so rarely used.

18             Could it be put on the ELMO.  And to the extent that there are

19     still copies available to be distributed to the booth -- no.

20             And the Judges would be willing to make their copies available -

21     in limited numbers - to the booth, to the extent needed.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And I believe my questions will be limited to

23     specific quotations that I will be reading into the record so that might

24     also assist us.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we have it at page 5.

Page 2614

 1             Could you please slowly proceed.  Apparently the ELMO is not yet

 2     functioning.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I will, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Sir, if I could have your assistance to see if this accurately

 5     reflects things you have written or said.

 6             The first quote I want to ask you about is there in middle, and

 7     it starts off:

 8             "There are times in history when neutrality is not neutral at all

 9     but complicity in the crime."

10             Does this accurately reflect a position that you have taken

11     either in print or verbally?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Where do we find it exactly, Mr -- could you be a

13     bit more precisely, Mr. Ivetic?

14             MR. IVETIC:  That would be the middle of the third paragraph of

15     the actual article on page 5.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see it.  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I'm happy to discuss the issue in -- you

18     know, in so far as Their Honours are, you know, prepared to listen to a

19     political discussion.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

21             THE WITNESS:  But I do think that there are times when neutrality

22     is complicit.  I think that the neutrality of the international community

23     during the war in Bosnia was one of those.  There are others.  Let's --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's be -- first of all, the question was whether

25     this reflects your position.

Page 2615

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  On -- on some occasions --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 3             THE WITNESS:  -- in history, generally, yeah.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for the next question.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, in that same paragraph, the next quote begins:

 7             "I do not want to be neutral between a camp guard and the inmate,

 8     the women raped seven times a night every night and the beast who rapes

 9     her."

10             Does that accurately reflect a position that you have taken in

11     writing?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And am I to take that the first part of the quote is referring to

14     the situation in Omarska and Trnopolje?

15        A.   Not necessarily specifically but to the situation that pertained

16     at the time, yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say, and I take that the first part of

20     the quote is referring to -- by the first part, do you mean the part that

21     says:  "There are times in history..."?

22             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   And I guess to be clear, sir, is that how you understood my

Page 2616

 1     question and is that how your answer was phrased?

 2        A.   Yes.  It's about times in history, not specifically that one

 3     only.  It could be Rwanda, but we're discussing Bosnia.  And, yes, that

 4     is an accurate statement of how I felt and how I feel, sir.

 5        Q.   And with respect to the second quotation, are those comments of

 6     yours directly relating to Omarska and Trnopolje?

 7        A.   Yes, and generically the camps as existed up until the point that

 8     that was written that I knew about.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And although it is not written in this particular piece, I

10     think you alluded to it in your earlier comments, but did you author a

11     piece in April 1998 entitled:  "I Must Testify.  Why One Journalist is

12     Giving Evidence Against Alleged War Criminals in Bosnia."

13             And there you can continued on by saying:

14             "That was the cowardly and callous neutrality adopted by the UN

15     itself in Bosnia to such disastrous and bloody effect."

16             Do you affirm these words, sir?

17        A.   Well, perhaps the language is strong but I still think that the

18     performance of the United Nations in allowing the slaughter to continue,

19     as it did, was cowardly and in some ways callous, yes.

20        Q.   Now I want to return to this document.  In the same paragraph a

21     few lines down, they -- they attribute a quote from the

22     British Journalism Review wherein you apparently said that you were

23     embarrassed by how objective you had been.

24             Do you -- can you affirm that this something that you said?

25        A.   No.  I have never read anything in the British Journalism Review.

Page 2617

 1     If I did say that -if, I haven't read it, and I know I used the term

 2     "objective" in that respect at the introduction to a book I wrote in

 3     1993 - I have said this to the Court before.  I'll say it again if Their

 4     Honours want to hear it.  I have -- I was confusing that, "neutrality,"

 5     "objective," I am -- I -- what I meant was I am embarrassed by how

 6     neutral I had been over -- in some of the reporting, with hindsight.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   At the start one continued to try one's best to see a balance in

10     things, and these -- this balance is in my early reporting, even when we

11     found the camps.  I'm quite embarrassed by that.  Yes, that's what I

12     meant.

13        Q.   Okay.  If we can continue on, there's another quotation

14     attributed there to you that says -- beginning:

15             "With Omarska and Trnopolje, objective coverage of the war became

16     a rather silly notion."

17             Does this quote accurately reflect the position that you have

18     held and/or published?

19        A.   This is "CounterPunch," which is neither neutral nor objective,

20     by the way.

21        Q.   I'm asking you about, sir.  Is the position that you've taken --

22        A.   Yes, but I can't find the quote, sir.

23        Q.   Oh.

24        A.   And I don't think I would have said that.

25        Q.   It is in the -- it is in the middle of the third paragraph that

Page 2618

 1     says:

 2             "At least since 1993 when he wrote in the

 3     British Journalism Review that he was 'embarrassed about how objective he

 4     used to be' but 'with Omarska and Trnopolje, objective coverage of the

 5     war became a rather silly notion.'  Vulliamy proclaimed that was he now

 6     'on the side of the Bosnian Muslim people against a historical and

 7     military programme to obliterate hem.'"

 8        A.   Right.

 9        Q.   Is that a position that you have taken and/or published, sir?

10        A.   Well, this is "CounterPunch" quoting the

11     British Journalism Review, which I haven't seen, quoting me.  I did,

12     during the three years of experiencing that war in Bosnia as a reporter

13     and as a human being, come to take the side of what I saw as the

14     resistance to what was happening against the perpetrators of the people

15     who were doing it, yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- although I do not know that it's not a

17     quote of yours, but just to understand the gist of it about silly

18     notions:  Would objective coverage become a rather silly notion or

19     neutral coverage?  Because you earlier said that you had perhaps used not

20     the right term at this moment.  So if you say you were siding, did you

21     consider this, that it would be silly to be neutral or silly to be

22     objective?

23             THE WITNESS:  I'm grateful to Your Honour.  Because I'm -- I'm

24     admitting that I have, as it were, crossed the terms in the past when

25     somebody rings you up on the phone for an interview or whatever.  Yes,

Page 2619

 1     thank you.  I, inasmuch as objectivity is fact-specific, it is what you

 2     see.  That is never a silly notion.  To continue to have remained neutral

 3     over what I had seen and what was clearly going on over those three

 4     years -- well, "silly" is not very good word.  It doesn't make sense to

 5     me as a human being.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So irrespective of whether the quote is accurate or

 7     not, this is your position?

 8             THE WITNESS:  That is my position, yes.  As I have said in the

 9     other passage quoted accurately, I don't wish -- I'm unable to be

10     neutral --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS:  -- in such situations as camps and massacres and

13     rape.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Is your testimony here today neutral or is it partial on the

17     issue of Omarska and Trnopolje?

18        A.   My testimony is answering questions.  If you're asking me am I

19     going to give you objective facts, yes.  If you're asking me am I sitting

20     here neutral between the people who have survived and been bereaved by

21     the camps and the massacres and the people who did it, no, I would be

22     arguing against myself.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

24             THE WITNESS:  The testimony itself is objective and factual.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 2620

 1        Q.   And I will welcome the opportunity to present you with factual

 2     observations that I'd like to ask you about.

 3             Now, first of all, if we can digress to another topic dealing

 4     with your testimony in the Stakic proceedings.  And this was at -- on the

 5     17th of September --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, please.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  Your Honours, I will not be tendering

 9     this document that is on -- on the ELMO, although I am told it is now

10     released in e-court.  I think the testimony that I wanted to elicit was

11     able to be elicited, and in keeping with the procedures in this case,

12     since this document is not authored by the witness and he was not aware

13     of all the contents of the same, I don't think I should be tendering it

14     through the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But you should first of all take care that the

16     documents you want to use are released on time.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we sent this into the technical

18     support staff two days ago.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll explore -- if that's the case, then of course

20     we should really --

21             MR. IVETIC:  And it's not the Registry's.  The ITSS that's at

22     issue.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a closer look into it because that

24     shouldn't take two days I think.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 2621

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that once they are uploaded by ITSS,

 2     that it is the Defence which finally releases them.  That is the

 3     information I received from the Registry.  It is not the first time that

 4     it happens.  Could you --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I can, Your Honour.  I can also say that the

 6     technicians, when they came to see the access that we had on the e-court

 7     system, noted that we do not have that ability to release them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I wish that we did.  But I will work on that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not going to work on that, you're going to

11     meet with everyone who could tell you and you sort this out so that we

12     don't have to waste time on it in court any further.  Again, I leave it

13     open whose mistake it is until now, but it should not happen again.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  Your Honour --

16        Q.   Excuse me.  Mr. Witness, the question I had for you was relating

17     to an answer you gave in the Stakic transcript on the 17th of December,

18     the 23rd and 24th pages of that day, but I note that the Prosecution

19     exhibit has the entirety of all three days combined so I have to

20     re-adjust to get the page reference for you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I missed the day.

22             MR. IVETIC:  17th September, 2002.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  17th, yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And it is of transcript page 8031.  And it's very

25     short.

Page 2622

 1        Q.   Sir, the question that was asked of you is:

 2             "Is it true, sir, that you do not have any military background or

 3     military expertise?"

 4             And your answer was:

 5             "In service, no.  Of warfare, obviously, yes."

 6             The question I have for you, sir -- first of all, do you remember

 7     that testimony?

 8        A.   I remember reading it when I went over the testimony.  I don't

 9     remember the exact moment.

10        Q.   Fair enough.  If you could please clarify for us now, is your

11     answer meant to be understood to signify that you feel you have a

12     military expertise borne of your time as a journalist covering war zones?

13        A.   "Expertise" is your word.  I have covered in my career --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

15             THE WITNESS:  -- the wars in Ireland, Iraq many times, and other

16     places.  I know war better than I would like to, but I've never served in

17     a military army or service of any kind.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you didn't quote a question right, is

19     it.  It was "experience" not "expertise."

20             "Is it true, sir, also that you have no political background or

21     experience?"

22             That's the question I have in the exhibit.  Nothing about

23     expertise.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise if I misspoke, Your Honours.  It's

25     possible.

Page 2623

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not a relevant issue, I understand, in this

 2     context.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  As a matter of fact, Your Honours, line 1 of page

 4     8031 does say "military expertise" in the question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Yes, I see that.  I see that later the

 6     question is, again, put to the witness.  I focussed on 8031 and your

 7     question is on 8030.  Although the words "military experience" appears

 8     on --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- 8031 but I looked at that other question.

11             This being clarified, please proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Now the reason I asked this is I would like to focus now for a

14     bit on an event that occurred on the convoy that you took from Prijedor

15     to get to Omarska.  And first of all could we clarify now, am I correct

16     that the armed escorts that were part of this convoy were from the police

17     of Prijedor?

18        A.   Oh yes.

19        Q.   And the convoy in question had a blue police all -- armoured

20     personnel carrier at the head of it?

21        A.   The APC was blue and was under the authority of the police and

22     Mr. Drljaca, yes.

23        Q.   And -- we're waiting for the transcript, sir, and again I would

24     caution you to please pause after my question before answering as I have

25     a suspicion that we're causing a problem for the translators and for the

Page 2624

 1     transcribers.

 2             Sir, did this APC also have a heavy machine-gun mounted on it?

 3        A.   As I recall, yes, a round turret.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we can have P199.  That's the transcript

 5     of the Stakic testimony.  And the part that I'm referring to is the 16th

 6     September, 2002.  It is it page 7938 of the transcript and I believe it

 7     is page 40 in e-court.  Hopefully that will allow us to locate it.

 8        Q.   And while we wait for that, sir, perhaps you can recall this

 9     incident.  But we're talking about an incident wherein the convoy was

10     fired upon and you were put in a "bad mood about this exchange of fire,"

11     and you believed that it wasn't a legitimate exchange of fire with Muslim

12     extremists hiding in the woods.

13             And I believe it's at the bottom of that page, the part that we

14     can't yet see.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Or maybe it's the -- is this page 7938 of the

16     transcript?  Next page.  I apologise.  I guess it's page 41.  And

17     beginning at line 16, I think, is the -- or line 8, I guess, to have the

18     full --

19        Q.   Sir, do you recall this portion of your testimony from the Stakic

20     proceedings?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And have I accurately summarised that you in fact you did not

23     believe that the exchange of fire was a legitimate exchange of fire but

24     rather was a set-up?

25        A.   Yes.  I thought it was a prank.

Page 2625

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we turn to the next page in the transcript, you

 2     give an explanation as to why you thought it was staged and your answer

 3     begins:

 4             "Yes.  It didn't convince.  It was all too much overdramatic and

 5     all the fire was coming over our heads in exactly the same place.  I

 6     mean, if you're under fire, the fire is coming at you behind, in front,

 7     over, and it's -- I wasn't convinced.  It was coming straight over our

 8     heads, and it was the way in which these guys with sun-glasses jumped out

 9     of the APC.  They were returning fire.  They were aiming fairly high.  It

10     didn't feel right.  It didn't feel convincing.  I thought to myself then,

11     and I think now, it was an attempt to intimidate us."

12             Do you still hold such a position today, sir?

13        A.   Yes, I've -- I've had no reason to change my mind from the --

14     the -- as I say, the disposition of the people who were escorting us,

15     were it a real fire-fight, I think it would have been different.

16        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, that the armoured personnel carrier

17     machine-gun was firing a sustained stream of fire in the direction of the

18     woods?

19        A.   I don't know if I testified to a sustained fire from the APC.  I

20     don't think it was that loud or sustained, in my recollection.

21        Q.   Okay.  What about fire from the infantry rifles?  Were they

22     sustained bursts rather than individual shots at targets?

23        A.   "Sustained" would be too strong a word, I think, for what I

24     recall the amount of shooting going on.  It was more bursts, stop,

25     bursts.

Page 2626

 1        Q.   And while the Serb police in sun-glasses, that you say were

 2     aiming high, were shooting, were other Serb police trying to advance with

 3     their colleagues to forward positions?

 4        A.   This is 20 years ago.  We stopped by a bridge.  I didn't see any

 5     of our escort trying to advance into the woods that I recall, no.

 6        Q.   Let's see if I can refresh your recollection.

 7             1D263 is an excerpt from V000-0910-A which is one of the clips

 8     given to us of the ITN footage from that day.  And this clip goes from --

 9     I apologise, I have to try and manipulate the computer as I speak.  It

10     goes from 18 minutes and 20 seconds to 19 minutes and 7 seconds from the

11     original film, although this 65 ter number is just the portion, these 40

12     seconds, that I'd like you to review and see if it refreshes your

13     recollection.  And I'll caution, there is no sound to this video.

14             And while playing this, sir, could you confirm for us whether

15     this is footage of the fire-fight that you are describing in the

16     transcript section that we just read.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Sir, having seen this now, does this footage comport with your

20     recollection of the fire-fight seen that we have been discussing from

21     this page in the Stakic transcript?

22        A.   It's the same scene, yes.

23        Q.   Do you now have a fresher recollected as to whether the personnel

24     that were not firing were trying to advance upon positions towards the

25     woods?

Page 2627

 1        A.   The woods from whence the fire were supposedly coming were to our

 2     left, with the camera pointing forward.  The man is running back and then

 3     across the bridge.  He seems to be saying, Carry on, I think.  I don't

 4     think they're trying to advance towards the -- the -- the alleged firing.

 5     There's another man we see who then comes across, anyway, that doesn't

 6     seem to be very frightened of any further fire --

 7        Q.   Would these --

 8        A.   -- to take a position of some kind.

 9        Q.   Would these be then flanking positions to the side of the area

10     from which the fire was originating?

11        A.   The fire is originating from the left as the camera is pointing

12     forward, as I understand it, or sort of left, slightly forward, as I

13     recall.  If -- well, the one man on the one hand, he is beckoning to come

14     across the bridge, on the other hand he is running across the bridge,

15     which I wouldn't call an advance particularly.  But they're sort of

16     running around it --

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   -- in a not very organised way.

19        Q.   Let me ask you this, sir:  You've already told us, I belive, in

20     your testimony that you did not have a military background.  Have you

21     ever been formally trained in combat tactics?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Prior to your deployment in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, can

24     you recount for us the number of times that you previously found yourself

25     in an active-combat situation or fire-fight?

Page 2628

 1        A.   I can't give you an exact number of times, Your Honours.  I was

 2     working in -- across northern Ireland for many years and I had been in

 3     Iraq in 1991, and had worked extensively in Croatia in 1991.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was about a number.  Could you say in

 5     the tens, in the hundreds, in the --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry, sir.  Tens of different assignments.

 7     Hundreds not.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Assignments.  But to be -- I think the question was

 9     about experience in -- in -- in fire-fight, exchange of fire, where you

10     found yourself in such a situation.  Is that by the tens, by the

11     hundreds --

12             THE WITNESS:  It's by the tens more than by the hundreds.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

14             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, before I forget can we tender

15     this video before I ask additional questions, 1D263, into evidence as the

16     next available Defence exhibit number.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I was informed that the Registry has not

18     been provided with a copy of the video and that there's no surrogate

19     sheet in e-court.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Copies were the ones that I had -- that I gave at

21     the beginning of our cross, so that I believe Ms. Stewart has all of them

22     instead of just the one.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what about the Registry who has to keep

24     record of --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Registry gets a disc.  She has all the discs.  I

Page 2629

 1     apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So we'll get that, the usher.  And then the

 3     surrogate sheet in e-court, do we also get it from Ms. Stewart or?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No, the surrogate sheet should be in e-court.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And released by whomever?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I'm trying to see.  I do see one surrogate sheet

 7     that was released at 259.  I don't see if this one is released according

 8     to our records as of [Overlapping speakers] --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Take care that if it's not that it is.

10             By the way, since we're dealing with procedural matters, I stand

11     corrected as far as the reference to the question is, because I saw the

12     similarity on what is found on that page in background, but I missed that

13     the second question was about political background whereas the first

14     question was about military expertise.

15             So I stand corrected that I have not -- I had not sufficiently

16     compared the two questions.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             I think we're at the time for the first break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we are.

21             We will take a break after the witness has been escorted out of

22     the courtroom.  And we'll resume at 20 minutes past midday.

23                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 p.m.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.

Page 2630

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Vulliamy.

 5             Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 8             MR. IVETIC:

 9        Q.   Sir, before the break I believe you had recounted for us the many

10     different places where you had been exposed to combat and the number of

11     times exposed to combat.  And am I correct that on all those occasions

12     you were - would the terminology be "embedded" as a journalist with armed

13     forces?

14        A.   No, I was not embedded with armed forces.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   Not always.  In fact, quite rarely.

17        Q.   In any of those instances, were you embedded with armed forces?

18        A.   On a couple of instances in Northern Ireland I would have been

19     accompanied by the British Army.  But usually not.  In Croatia, on a

20     couple of occasions, with what was then-the Yugoslav national army and

21     the Croatian forces, but not usually.  Usually we were just on our own

22     trying to figure things out.

23        Q.   Fair enough.

24        A.   And in Iraq, usually again not, actually.  Again, we would be

25     working on our own inasmuch as one could in 1991.  But although it sounds

Page 2631

 1     a little strange, we were escorted by Saddam Husein's troops south

 2     towards Al Basrah in 1991.  So it's a mix, but usually not embedded.

 3        Q.   In the course of your experiences that you drew upon to conclude

 4     that this incident was staged, did you become familiar or have explained

 5     to you the concept of suppressive fire whose objective is to pin down

 6     enemy forces with continuous fire rather than to seek to neutralise

 7     individual targets from a distance?

 8        A.   I'd heard of the term suppressive fire.  I'm not entirely sure

 9     what it is.  The reason I came to the conclusion I did then is I've

10     obviously been shot at quite a lot and the shooting at one tends to not

11     repeatedly go over the top all the time and involve people walking around

12     fairly exposed as in this instance as these men were.  The return of fire

13     appeared to be high.

14        Q.   In the course of your experiences and in drawing your

15     conclusions, were you familiar with the military tactic known as fire and

16     movement or fire and maneuver that uses suppressive fire or the threat

17     thereof to decrease the enemy's ability to return fire, their unit

18     cohesion, and their morale.

19        A.   Yes.  Fire and move, fire and move, fire and move, of course.  I

20     think what we discussed in the car was that the fire that was supposedly

21     coming at us was not from people who were genuinely trying to hit our

22     vehicle or the other vehicles and kill us, because if they were they

23     weren't very good.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the issue at stake, whether this fire

25     was staged or not, that's an impression the witness gained.  He explained

Page 2632

 1     to us what were the facts on which he based his impression.  Nothing

 2     more, nothing less.  It's perfectly clear that your point is that he may

 3     have drawn wrong conclusions and that point is clear to the Chamber.

 4             Now since that incident is not central in this case but is, I

 5     would say, an aspect, rather, in the margin, the two issues:  First, that

 6     the witness may have drawn wrong conclusions, and that's the Defence'

 7     position, I take it; second, that such wrong conclusions may have been

 8     drawn by a person you do not consider to be impartial, are clear.  So

 9     therefore, if there's -- unless there's anything other, the Chamber

10     suggests that you move on.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I would also like to test the witness's recollection

12     of the rate to fire.  I have the video-tape with the -- that I found

13     through other sources.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem.  In the last video I didn't hear any

15     fire at all.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether it's because the audio was

18     switched off or whether there was no fire at all.  If you say I'd like to

19     further look at the facts on which the witness relied when he gained his

20     impression, then of course please do so.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And I'm just checking the

22     latest word.  I'm told that the surrogate sheet should be in e-court for

23     this video.  It's 1D264 and that should be released, so hopefully we'll

24     have some good news.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Sir, as we wait for this footage which I have to, unfortunately,

Page 2633

 1     activate from here, and this is the -- an extract from a video entitled:

 2     "Judgement" that we were able to obtain from a third party source.  It's

 3     from part 1, and it's from 7.26 to 7.57 of that video.

 4             And just, sir, for purposes of foundation, do you recall that

 5     during the convoy there was another film crew in addition to the ITN crew

 6     that was there?

 7        A.   Yes, there was another film crew with us throughout from Pale.

 8     They were, we were told, from Bosnian Serb television, and some, if not

 9     all of them, were wearing military fatigues.  And then by the time we got

10     to Trnopolje, there appeared to a fourth camera operating, and I don't

11     know who it was, but that cameraman was also wearing military fatigues.

12             MR. IVETIC:  And for purposes of this tape, Your Honours, there

13     is some English on narration.  I'm more interested in the actual ambient

14     sounds of the fire-fight, but I will play it twice, I guess, to comply

15     with the new rules, is that my understanding?

16             I apologise, maybe I should just repeat myself.  Your Honours --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the -- the surrogate sheet is for this video

18     that you are going to play now.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And for the previous -- or was there a

21     previous where it was still missing?

22             MR. IVETIC:  There was a previous one.  We could check that.

23     That would be -- 1D00263 was the previous one.  I'm told they were both

24     [Overlapping speakers] --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.  Because we -- we're still at the stage

Page 2634

 1     that the previous one was not released but now both are released; 1D263

 2     and 1D264.  We'll now look at the video linked to 1D264.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And, Your Honours, my question was I'm more

 4     concerned with the ambient sound behind the narration, but since there is

 5     narration, do I need to also play this one twice to comply with the --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it depends on -- if you say I'm not going rely

 7     on the narration at all, it's only the sounds that we're interested in,

 8     then I would say that we'll not listen to it.  It's perhaps not even

 9     necessary to be transcribed because it's not part of the record on which

10     we may rely in the future.

11             MR. IVETIC:  That would be my position, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's proceed then proceed on this basis.

13     Ms. Bibles seems not to oppose.

14             Please.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. IVETIC:  Well, then I apologise.  We don't seem to have sound

17     coming out of this ...

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Sir, having reviewed this footage from the other crew that was

21     there, first of all, is this again the same incident that we were talking

22     about?

23        A.   Visually, yes.  The heavy fire I'm not convinced by.  You said

24     you're not concerned with the commentary, but I can't but notice that it

25     talks about loyalist and rebel and Allah.  I think this is -- I don't

Page 2635

 1     know what is.  I mean --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             THE WITNESS:  -- I don't accept the audio on that.  I recognise

 4     the visuals.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please ignore what was said, as we will do.

 6             You say the audio, as far as the sound of firing is concerned,

 7     you have --

 8             THE WITNESS:  I don't recall heavy weaponry of the kind we hear

 9     on that track during the -- this episode on our way to Omarska, no.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I have one additional question in relation to

11     this.  The previous video we saw, was there any sound on that, because

12     there was no -- there was no firing to be heard at all.  Is it because

13     there is no audio with that material, or is it that --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I can give you what I know.  That

15     video-tape was disclosed to us in that format by the Office of the

16     Prosecutor.  There is audio in the section predating that clip.  There is

17     audio in the section following that clip, but in that particular clip

18     there is no audio.  I don't know whether that is something that's on the

19     original tape or not.  That is, unfortunately, the tape that I had when I

20     was preparing for the cross-examinations.  And I think it's number

21     V000- -- I don't have the number here.  I believe it's V4910-A I think is

22     the number.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles, could you inform the Chamber.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we'll have -- we can certainly obtain

25     the original video-tape.  I believe this was a compilation video-tape

Page 2636

 1     that the first one came from that was used in the Tadic trial.  I would

 2     have to go back to obtain the original on that to verify whether or not

 3     there was audio on that particular clip.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If that could be done overnight, that would be

 5     appreciated, so that we know it tomorrow and that we could even verify

 6     whether the sound we hear here, if there's any sound on the other one,

 7     whether it corresponds, yes or no.

 8             Let's move on.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   And, sir, in this video, visually did we see men trying to

11     manoeuvre to different positions while there was fire being heard, at

12     least on this tape?  I take for the moment your objection to the tape,

13     but as far as this tape is concerned, was there visually men moving

14     forward that were not firing while the other -- while there were sounds

15     of other fire taking place?

16        A.   Yes, we could see, I think, the same man running as on the other

17     film, or one of the two we saw on the other film, and we heard the heavy

18     explosions.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, if I can introduce -- seek to introduce

20     1D00264 into evidence, and I do understand that I need to provide fresh

21     copies of both of these on individual CDs for the Registrar.  I will have

22     that performed this afternoon, so maybe if we MFI it for now until we

23     receive separate discs, that might be the safest course of action.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, so that we reserve already a number

25     and we have a -- a surrogate sheet in e-court, and we'll wait for the

Page 2637

 1     final video to be uploaded -- to be provided to the Registry.

 2             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D00264 becomes Exhibit D43,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification, waiting for the video

 6     to be provided.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Vulliamy, I'd like to return to Prijedor for a moment.

10     That is to say, before this convoy left for Omarska.  Am I correct that

11     there was another incident where you were glad that your fellow

12     journalist, Tim Juda, was denied the right to join you?

13        A.   Yes.  You used the word "glad."  That was purely for reasons of

14     professional.  He was working for a rival newspaper.

15        Q.   And you say professionally.  Did you have a feeling that this

16     report or this trip to Omarska and Trnopolje was going to be a

17     significant boost to your journalistic career?

18        A.   I did not think in those terms.  It's a big question.  No.  I

19     certainly don't now.

20        Q.   Am I correct that the decision to eventually permit your convoy

21     to proceed towards Omarska was relayed to you by Mr. Simo Drljaca as you

22     were waiting outside of the municipal building in Prijedor?

23        A.   Yes.  We had been told to wait outside, and when we were talking

24     with women there, and it was, I think, yes, I recall it was Drljaca who

25     came out and said let's proceed, after whatever negotiations had taken

Page 2638

 1     place while we were waiting.  The chief of police.

 2        Q.   Okay.  The chief of police.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you have mentioned a Colonel Milutinovic.  I must confess

 5     there's some confusion here I'd like to see if we could clarify it.

 6             In your testimony in Stakic, in Kovacevic, in Tadic, in Sikirica,

 7     you talk about a Major Milutinovic, whereas in your testimony in the

 8     Karadzic proceedings and hear today, you have referred to a

 9     Colonel Milutinovic.  Could you please provide clarification?

10        A.   Yes, of course.  Sorry, Your Honours.  I confused the rank.  I

11     think he was -- I think he later became a colonel, even a major at the

12     time, and it was Colonel Arsic.  I'm confusing the ranks.  It's the same

13     man, Milutinovic and Arsic.

14        Q.   And with respect to Major Milutinovic, at that time that he was

15     part of your convoy, he was affiliated with the 1st Krajina Corps in

16     Banja Luka; is that correct?

17        A.   I didn't know which corps he was in at the time, but he was

18     obviously in the army, and he accompanied us to Prijedor from Banja Luka,

19     and thence from Prijedor to Omarska.

20        Q.   Okay.  This morning in direct examination upon questioning by

21     Ms. Bibles, you mentioned that you heard that he went to the General

22     Staff and worked for General Mladic.  Am I correct that

23     Major Milutinovic, at this time, was working with the army in Banja Luka,

24     not the General Staff?

25        A.   Yes.  He was working in the -- with the army in Banja Luka and

Page 2639

 1     very briefly we visited whatever facility he was based at.

 2        Q.   So would you agree with me then that your testimony this morning

 3     was again mixing up things that occurred later in time, perhaps in 1996,

 4     when this gentleman may have had a rank of colonel and events that

 5     happened in 1992 when he was a major with the 1st Krajina Corps?

 6        A.   Yes.  I -- I -- I didn't -- I didn't testify that he was -- that

 7     he was working at the general headquarters in 1992.  We met him in

 8     Banja Luka.  He was based in Banja Luka.  And it was an inquiry about --

 9     well, whatever -- what happened to that man later, that I learnt that he

10     had reportedly - and I can only say reportedly - gone to work at general

11     headquarter.  I did not know then whether that was true and I still don't

12     know now.  And that he had become a colonel.  Hence, my confusion, for

13     which I apologise.

14        Q.   Thank you for clearing it up for me.  Now I believe you

15     mentioned, and I'd like to clarify, that this Major Milutinovic stayed

16     with you up until you came to Trnopolje and that he departed upon your

17     arrival at Trnopolje.  Is that accurate?

18        A.   He left us -- he didn't accompany us in the same vehicle from

19     Omarska to Trnopolje that I recall.  He accompanied us in the vehicles

20     from Banja Luka to Prijedor, and Prijedor to Omarska.  He left, and I

21     don't recall a specific farewell with him, somewhere between Omarska and

22     Trnopolje.  Either immediately after Omarska or immediately before

23     Trnopolje.  I can't help you with which of those it was.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now if we can turn -- if we can look at P119 which is the

25     Stakic transcript again.  And the section I would like to look is from 16

Page 2640

 1     September 2002, and it is transcript page 7937, which -- I do have the

 2     page in e-court.  I think it's about the -- I want to say it's about the

 3     30th page in, but I can't be certain of that.  It is transcript page 7937

 4     from that transcript.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I was still thinking about you said to

 6     the witness that he mixed up what happened at that time or what may have

 7     happened later.  But when he said -- when the witness said that he went

 8     to the General Staff, he was asked whether he had followed the further

 9     career of Mr. Milutinovic.  So, therefore, I think, in the context, it

10     was perfectly clear that he was not referring to what happened in 1992

11     but what may have happened in the further career apart from that the

12     witness said that he has no - that's what he heard but he doesn't know

13     whether it's accurate or not, and then to say you are mixing up what

14     happened earlier and later might not be totally fair to the witness if

15     the question was about the further career, which is unlimited in time.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  I was not able to review the

17     transcript during the break as I was dealing with the issue of whether

18     exhibits were released -- documents were released or not in e-court, so I

19     was working off of memory of the answer rather than the question, and

20     indeed the confusion as to between colonel and major was impetus for that

21     discussion.  I'm glad we've been able to clarify it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  As soon as you start blaming a witness for mixing up

23     matters, then you should find time.  I mean, it took me two seconds to

24     find the source, and then you should accurately check whether you -- for

25     good reasons blame the witness for mixing up matters.

Page 2641

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If we could zoom in on this page a little bit

 3     tighter.

 4        Q.   If we look at lines 10 and 11 here, and this time I don't think

 5     I'm misspeaking, is this your testimony in the Stakic proceedings wherein

 6     you claim it was Major Milutinovic that told Tim Juda and the other news

 7     journalists that they could not accompany you?

 8        A.   Yes.  I read the testimony.  We -- we were waiting to go.  The

 9     two men came out together.  Juda arrived.  And I don't recall -- I

10     remember it was Drljaca who said, Let's go to Omarska.  I don't recall

11     now from the actual event whether it was Milutinovic who told Juda that

12     he couldn't go.  But I'll stand by the testimony which is ten years ago

13     that it was.  There was a discussion as to who or who was not part of

14     Dr. Karadzic's party.  That was the issue at stake.

15        Q.   Okay.

16        A.   And --

17        Q.   Let's see if I can refresh your recollection with your testimony

18     from another proceeding.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we could look at the Karadzic

20     transcript, which is in e-court as 1D00242.  It is from the 9th of

21     November 2011.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a extract from it or is it the whole video?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I believe it's the whole for now for showing

24     the witness, because we weren't sure which sections we would show, but I

25     will not tender the whole transcript obviously.

Page 2642

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Even if you --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- put it clearly on the record, one might wonder

 4     whether it's any need at all to --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  That was --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- have it admitted into evidence.  Please find the

 7     right place you want to put to the witness.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  The 11th page in e-court.  And, again, this is the

 9     9th of November, 2011, transcript page 21043.  But it is the 11th page in

10     e-court, and it starts at line 12, and I will read it into the record,

11     Your Honours, so that we do not have to clutter the record with

12     transcripts.

13        Q.   Sir, it begins like this:

14             "Q.  But were told they couldn't?

15             "A.  Yes, the matter was adjudicated by Simo Drljaca that they

16     couldn't find -- the reason given was they weren't part of Dr. Karadzic's

17     party.  They weren't going at his invitation and on his authority."

18             And for the record, the prior discussion was talking about a

19     journalist from "The Times" and a colleague from "Liberation."  Are these

20     the individuals Tim Juda and the other journalist who we've been

21     discussing, from "The Times" and from the "Liberation" news

22     organisations.

23        A.   Yes, Tim Juda from "The Times" and the man who's name I don't

24     know from "Liberation."

25        Q.   And does this refresh your recollection of who actually gave the

Page 2643

 1     decision that these men could not join the convoy?

 2        A.   Yes.  And I'll stand by both of them because this is a

 3     conversation.  These two men are organising our visit, they're working

 4     together.  There's a collection around the vehicles, they're talking,

 5     they're chatting, and it was from them, from Drljaca, from Milutinovic, I

 6     don't know if Kovacevic was there.  I don't think he was.  No, you can't

 7     go.  You're not in Karadzic's party.

 8        Q.   And -- thank you.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, as I indicated, I will not be

10     tendering this transcript into the record unless the Prosecution thinks

11     it needs to for contextual purposes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles is nodding no.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we can move on then.

14        Q.   Sir, in the section from the Stakic case that we just had on the

15     screen before this one, that was page 7937, therein you testified that

16     you met Milutinovic there, then.  But I --

17             MR. IVETIC:  One moment.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. IVETIC:  Well, let me move on.  Let me move on.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  If we could move back now to the

22     time-period before this decision was made and before the convoy set

23     forward.

24        Q.   You were in a meeting within the municipal building in Prijedor

25     that -- in which Mr. Drljaca, Mr. Stakic, Mr. Kovacic, and others talked

Page 2644

 1     with you about your request to visit Omarska and Trnopolje.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And for reference this is at transcript 7832 of the

 3     16th September, 2002, Stakic transcript, so it should be five pages

 4     beyond the last Stakic entry that we had.

 5        Q.   Sir, if I can ask you:  During that meeting, am I correct that

 6     you were shown a video-tape and comments were made by the participants

 7     about a video that you were shown?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we talking about 7832 or 7932?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I have --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             MR. IVETIC:  7832, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But for me the redacted transcript starts at 7898 or

13     we are in the Stakic --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Stakic, that's correct.  [Overlapping speakers].

15             JUDGE ORIE:  My transcript starts at least as -- the redacted

16     transcript starts at -- with the blackened out 7898, so I wonder whether

17     you are referring to -- when you said five pages beyond the last Stakic

18     entry we had, and that was in the 7-9 series.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  It must be then 7932.  You're

20     accurate.  I must have a mistake there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll follow it from 7932.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Down further.  It might be the previous page.  But

23     this is -- this is leading -- this is leading to the next question.  I

24     was just phrasing the -- the meeting for the witness, so if -- we could

25     refer to it if we need to.

Page 2645

 1        Q.   Sir, do you recall during that meeting there was a video-tape

 2     that was shown to you that consisted of footage of caches of weapons that

 3     were said to have been captured from armed Muslim insurgents in the

 4     villages surrounding the town of Prijedor?

 5        A.   Yes.  It was a fairly -- yes, I recall it well.  It was a very

 6     rasping video in which it showed that they had found weapons and they'd

 7     found copies of the Qur'an in people's houses.  Those were the points

 8     that were being emphasised by the people at the -- on the committee we

 9     were with.

10        Q.   And I think we want the -- just the end of the prior page leading

11     on to this page.  If we could have both pages up in e-court, then we can

12     follow along with the brief selection that I want to ask about what the

13     officials said would be found.  There we go.  I'm starting from page -- I

14     guess it's 7831, then, line 13.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  7-8 or 7-9?

16             MR. IVETIC:  7-9, again, yes, I apologise.  7931, line 13 onward,

17     and it'll bleed over onto the next page.  The next page 7932, line 10.

18        Q.   Sir, first -- let me just try and read this to highlight the

19     portions that I'd like to have your comment on.

20             This is president Stakic now speaking:

21             "I am glad you have come here to this situation here, but I am

22     sorry because the international publicity was not -- or publications,

23     pub, was not int. two to three months ago in this area.  At that time,

24     there was heavier fighting than now.  Two years ago, elections.  There

25     was -- government was half/half Serbians and Muslims.  I was negotiating

Page 2646

 1     two sides, Serbs and the Muslims.  Get try to agree, the other side to

 2     live in peace together.  What we are looking for today.  We think we have

 3     problems from the Muslim extremists here, not with the Muslim population.

 4     We asked the Muslims not to leave this area, but to live together with

 5     us.  Serbs are not doing any genocide to other people.

 6             "We cannot make a nation.  It is very difficult for such a

 7     country to exist.  The other side buying weapons all the time.  Croatian

 8     and Muslim extremists.  We have a doc, a Kozarski.  There are -- there

 9     were 3.500 armed people.  We have the names and the weapons they have

10     got.  We have two tapes and by the Muslims how they were prepared for

11     this war.  Even we try very hard to not.  They started to kill the

12     Serbian people in this area.  They made barricades.  Beginning of May, on

13     the main and side roads.  Green headbands and berets.  SDA with a line

14     through, Serbian people saw what was going to be and know what was in the

15     Second World War.  Started to protect themselves, their house, in this

16     area.  We defend us from the first.  A clash from the other side.  In

17     that documentation, from all that we saw, from papers and documents, we

18     had a fear what could be done to us."

19             Now this particular section that I've highlighted from your

20     testimony, that has been accepted in this case now as well, am I correct

21     that this was your recitation of your shorthand notes from the meeting

22     that you had in the municipal assembly in Prijedor?

23        A.   Yes, correct.  This is my reading for the Chamber the exact

24     transcript of my shorthand notes of how Mr. Stakic interpreted the

25     situation or, rather, what he wanted us to hear from him.  Yes.

Page 2647

 1        Q.   And prior to arriving in Prijedor in August of 1992, did you by

 2     way of research or other means, have occasion to find out about the

 3     attack on the town centre that took place in May of 1992 when an armed

 4     group of approximately 200 Croats and Muslims attacked down-town Prijedor

 5     and attempted to take over the town, killing several Serbs in the

 6     process?

 7        A.   Prior to, no.  Since, if I can continue, yes, I have heard about

 8     that incident.  But it pales in -- pales in comparison to what I have

 9     also found to have happened in the other direction.  And I have also

10     heard about a barricade, as well.  He says they made barricades.  I've

11     heard about one.

12        Q.   Would that be the one on Hambarine?

13        A.   Hambarine, yes.

14        Q.   And on that occasion several JNA soldiers were killed by these

15     armed Bosnian Muslim individuals including ethnic Serbs and ethnic

16     non-Serbs, as I believe two of the JNA soldiers were Croats?

17        A.   I don't know the details of the -- or the numbers of casualties

18     on either side in Hambarine.  But everything that we saw that day, and

19     everything that I have worked on over the 20 years since - and there's

20     been a lot of it - militates very -- very much in the opposite direction

21     as to how the violence was apportioned between these two sides.  That's

22     to understate it.

23        Q.   And again is that you being neutral or impartial?

24        A.   Sir, this testimony is completely impartial.  If the words you

25     cited earlier from the time of war where - the language, perhaps a little

Page 2648

 1     strong - it was all happening.  You're using these words.  It's all much

 2     more heavy-hearted now and sadder, but I'm -- I'm giving evidence, I'm

 3     not --

 4        Q.   Fair enough.

 5        A.   -- summarising my work.  I'm trying to answer your question.  I,

 6     for what it's worth, know now, impartially, on the basis of facts and

 7     testimonies I've heard - and I've taken this extremely seriously and

 8     heavy-heartedly - over the years that Mr. Stakic's account of the

 9     direction in which the violence was going in that area was untrue.  That

10     the version of things he was giving us that day was not true.  Although

11     the incidents he describes in Prijedor -- sorry, that you asked about in

12     Prijedor and a barricade I know now was true.  Sorry about the rambling

13     answer, but you --

14        Q.   It's okay.  I let you finish so you'd get your full say.

15        A.   Sir, you're asking me, you know --

16        Q.   Can I direct you with another question?

17        A.   Yes, sir.  Please.

18        Q.   What about Mr. Stakic's assertion that the Croats and Muslims

19     were buying lots of weapons and that there were 3.500 armed men in

20     Kozarac.  Do you have any knowledge about that allegation?

21        A.   At the time, no.  Since, yes.  I do not think there were 3.000

22     armed men in Kozarac.  I do understand there was some resistance from the

23     police station at first, but it was very quickly and thoroughly

24     overwhelmed by artillery bombardments and the clearing -- cleansing of

25     the town.

Page 2649

 1        Q.   Were you a witness to any of that?

 2        A.   No, I wasn't, sir, but I was a witness on that day, August the

 3     5th, to the result of it.  The place had been almost gutted by explosions

 4     and fire and there was nobody there apart from a few Serbs who were

 5     remaining, as was explained by Mr. Milutinovic, in fact, and I did have

 6     occasion to go back into 1996 to see that Kozarac was almost entirely

 7     deserted and destroyed.

 8        Q.   If I can ask you, since you mentioned Mr. Milutinovic:  On the

 9     convoy to Omarska, am I correct that you also passed villages that had

10     white towels or flags hanging from structures, houses, minarets,

11     et cetera, and that those villages were entirely intact and it was

12     explained to that you those villages had decided to peacefully co-exist

13     with the Serb authorities in Prijedor and there was no armed action in

14     those areas.  Does that refresh your recollection?

15        A.   We were -- it was -- yes, it does.  Thank you.  It was explained

16     to us that those who had agreed to hang white sheets or pillow cases from

17     their windows or whatever had accepted the new order, and it was also

18     explained that they had agreed to leave.

19        Q.   Are the --

20        A.   The villages were not entirely intact, by the way.  You said

21     entirely.  They weren't.  Some houses in all these communities we went

22     through had been bombed out or shelled or burned, but not all of them and

23     not those from which the sheets were hanging.

24        Q.   And likewise, were there not Croatian villages that likewise

25     were -- remained loyal to the Prijedor authorities, the Serb authorities,

Page 2650

 1     and did not have combat take place in those villages?

 2        A.   I didn't know then specifically about the Croatian villages in

 3     the area, nor which they were.  I now know which ones you're referring

 4     to, and they are not as -- they're not totally destroyed like Kozarac and

 5     the villages around Kozarac, but I do not at all -- the Croats that I've

 6     spoken to do not give any indication that they were loyalable -- loyal to

 7     the Prijedor authorities.  They were --

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   They were --

10        Q.   Sir, if I can ask you this question:  Were there not Croatians

11     were that mobilised or called up and were part of the army of the

12     Republika Srpska in Prijedor?

13        A.   If you say so, yes.  There was a lot of -- there was cross --

14     people fought -- a lot of people fought for armies which were not

15     necessarily of their religious side.  Tens of thousands of Serbs fought

16     for the "government side" or, as they called it, the republican side.  I

17     don't know specifically about Croats fighting for the Republika Srpska.

18     If you say so, it may be.  But I was back in one of the Croatian villages

19     that you're talking about, called Ljubija, just this summer, and they

20     were -- all the Croats from that village were -- were removed from the

21     village.  Forcibly.  Via the camps, many of them.  Or killed.

22        Q.   And, again, sir, did you eye-witness any of this that you just

23     mentioned in the last two minutes?

24        A.   No.  I hope I made it clear.  This was going back to -- to -- to

25     gather deeper and further information on the places you're asking me

Page 2651

 1     about.  I hope I made it clear that at the time I was not aware of these

 2     Croatian villages or indeed which ones they were.  The village -- the

 3     towns that we passed on the way to Prijedor from Banja Luka were Kozarac

 4     and the surrounding communities, which were very, very, heavily, almost

 5     entirely destroyed.  And then subsequently on the way from Prijedor to

 6     Omarska, we saw other villages which were partially destroyed and those

 7     that -- houses that weren't destroyed had the sheets and the pillow cases

 8     hanging from them.  I hope I've made that clear --

 9        Q.   You have.  I've --

10        A.   -- that the reference to the Croatian villages was upon my return

11     just actually this year to research them.

12        Q.   And you gave testimony just now about how those villages became

13     empty, and I'm asking you, sir, is that something that you are a witness

14     to or is that the result of you talking to people?  I'm trying to figure

15     if you are an expert witness or a fact witness.

16        A.   No, no.  I was a witness to some people going back this year to

17     the houses that they used to live in that were taken from them, from

18     which they were expelled via Omarska in which Serbs were now living.  But

19     I wasn't there in 1992 when it happened.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I must insist that pauses are made between question

21     and answer and answer and question, because otherwise we'll lose too much

22     of the testimony.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise and I will try on my side.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, me too, Your Honour.

25             MR. IVETIC:

Page 2652

 1        Q.   If we can move up just to finish up on Dr. Stakic's words here.

 2     Is there two other -- there's a few other lines that deal directly with

 3     Omarska and Trnopolje that I'd like to ask you about, and this on the

 4     same section continuing from line 10 through line 18 of the transcript.

 5             "There's no conc. camps exists.  Only transit camps" --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue.  I see there is "no conc.

 7     camps," which I understand to refer to Mr. Stakic saying that there were

 8     concentration camps and that's not what you read, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, I'm reading the transcript.  I

10     have to read what's in the transcript, and the transcript says "conc."

11     because this is the shorthand of the witness, and I cannot -- I obviously

12     think it means "concentration" as well but I cannot testify about that.

13     I have to ask the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

15             Then I missed it.  I thought initially that I read on the

16     transcript or I heard there are no camps, but I may have misheard.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             "I'll start from the beginning again, sir.

20             "There is no conc.," and it's spelled C-O-N-C, "camps exists.

21     Only transit camps that we put some of the refugees in their camps to

22     protect them.  And some come by themselves.  The refugees who want to

23     leave this area.  Some of them want to go back to Bosnia, Izetbegovic

24     country.  And it is provided for most of them to go there, but there is

25     many of the Muslim people, they don't want to go and live in that

Page 2653

 1     country.  They want to go to Croatia, Austria, Germany.  Now we are

 2     negotiate with UNPROFOR, and int. cross to provide those people with all

 3     the docs.  queueing to get the documents to go abroad."

 4        Q.   Now, sir, if we could first clarify the first line of this

 5     quotation from your shorthand notes.  By "conc. camps" are we talking

 6     about concentration camps?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And if we could clarify also by the abbreviation "int. cross,"

 9     are we talking about the International Red Cross?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, during your time at Trnopolje did you have

12     occasion to verify these words of Dr. Stakic and hear that there were, in

13     fact, persons, refugees who came to Trnopolje themselves?

14        A.   Some of them, a few of them, yes.  And it was fairly obvious why.

15     We had just driven by their houses that had been blown up or shelled or

16     burned down.

17        Q.   Do you -- do you consider that this part of Mr. Stakic's address

18     was plausible and truthful in so far as you previously said that the

19     other part you did not believe was not true?

20        A.   I think that by the time we got to Omarska, it was becoming clear

21     that this was not a transit camp.  It was much worse than that.  And --

22        Q.   Sir, my question was with regard to Trnopolje.

23        A.   Oh, with -- to Trnopolje.  Well, no, he is talking about no

24     concentration camps exist, only transit --

25        Q.   And sir --

Page 2654

 1        A.   -- camps --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- and my answer to you is that Omarska was clearly not a transit

 4     camp.  So no, he did not convince me on that score, nor does that version

 5     of things convince me since.

 6        Q.   Okay, well let's --

 7        A.   To answer your question.

 8        Q.   Let's see about seem of these parts where you consider that

 9     Mr. Stakic's account was untruthful.  If we could explore your prior

10     testimony in another case as it relates to weapons that the Bosnian

11     Muslims and Croats were buying, which you have now testified was not --

12     part of the not truthful part of Mr. Stakic's statements.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we could call up 1D242.  This is the Karadzic

14     transcript again.  And this time it is page 39 in e-court, and it should

15     be transcript 21072 from the original transcript from November of 2011,

16     November 9th, 2011, and, again, it should be the 39th page in e-court.

17     The next page, I apologise.  21072.  And if we could start at line 15 and

18     onward.

19        Q.   Now, here, Mr. Karadzic is questioning you about things in your

20     first book:  "Seasons in Hell."  And --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- yes, it has been resolved.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   And for -- again, I do not intend to tender the entire

25     transcript, so I will just read in the question and answer that I am

Page 2655

 1     going to be asking this witness about.  It starts at line 12 here, and

 2     the question from Mr. Karadzic is:

 3             "Q.  Let's finish with the book, according to the Trial Chamber's

 4     guidance.  Let's look at page 11 in e-court, please.  Can the left-hand

 5     side be displayed.

 6              "You're talking about the embargo, about the difficulties

 7     experienced by the Muslim side with regard to the purchasing of weapons,

 8     and then at the bottom of the page you say that you were aware of a

 9     perverse smuggling route along which guns, paid for by the Muslims, using

10     money from Turkey and the Arab countries, would arrive at the Croatian

11     port of Rijeka.  And then can we look at the top of the right-hand side

12     page.  And then you describe how the Croats would take a half cut; is

13     that correct?

14             "A.  As I understood it, from a number of sources, Bosnian

15     government, military, HVO Croatian military, and international

16     intelligence, this was the deal that pertained to some of the arms

17     shipments.  I can't speak for all of them.  That as the front and central

18     Bosnian, at least, became progressively cut off, they would get a quarter

19     of the weapons that would arrive in Rijeka, or indeed later by plane, and

20     that there would be a ... commission, if you like, of 50 per cent to the

21     HV and another 25 percent for the HVO."

22             Now, sir, is this testimony from the Karadzic proceedings

23     something that you still stand by?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  This is much later in the war, of course.

25        Q.   And the HV would be the Croatian army?

Page 2656

 1        A.   HV is the Army of Croatia, yes.

 2        Q.   And HVO would be the armed part of --

 3        A.   Bosnian --

 4        Q.   Would be the armed part of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

 5     that existed on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you mention among your sources, quote/unquote, international

 8     intelligence.  Can you please identify for us the international

 9     intelligence service that you had as a source for this information?  And

10     if you feel we must go in private session to do so, please let me know.

11        A.   No, it's not necessary to go into private session at all.  They

12     were Danish and some British.  But I didn't set much store by the

13     British, to be honest.

14        Q.   And just to be clear, how frequent were your contacts with these

15     sources in the -- in these intelligence agencies, the Danish and the

16     British agencies?

17        A.   Infrequent.  Very infrequent.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you read a part of the Karadzic

19     transcript into the record.  Also my first question was:  What's the

20     time-frame, what are we talking about?  And then apparently at that

21     moment everyone is looking at page 11 in e-court, because that's where

22     the story starts.  But I've got no idea what is on that page 11 in

23     e-court, what the document is they apparently are reading from.  Whether

24     that's the book, although it's indicated that they want to finish with

25     the book.  I've got no idea.  If you could clarify that.

Page 2657

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I can try and clarify it with the witness,

 2     Your Honours.  I have no personal knowledge since we do not have access

 3     to the materials that were used in the Karadzic trial as of yet to be

 4     able to verify all this.  I tried to find the book by Mr. Vulliamy.  I

 5     did not have a copy in the sufficient time they put.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this mean that you put this question to the

 7     witness without even having the slightest idea of what was on screen at

 8     that moment in the Karadzic case?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No, I -- from the transcript it's clear that they're

10     talking about the book.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. IVETIC:  But I don't have a physical copy of the book so that

13     I have to ask the witness about that.  That's what I'm saying.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The book is what book?

15             MR. IVETIC:  "Seasons in Hell," written by Mr. Vulliamy.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So page 11, you say you have no access to it,

17     but I take it that page 11 of this book is publicly available.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Not on the Internet or here, but, yes, there are

19     books that --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, sometimes you still have to buy them in a

21     bookstore, or in libraries sometimes they have books.  But apparently you

22     have not checked that.

23             Then I can immediately ask Mr. Vulliamy:  This part of the

24     Karadzic transcript, was the questions that -- or what was on the screen,

25     was that your book?

Page 2658

 1             THE WITNESS:  I think so, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You think so.

 3             THE WITNESS:  And if I'm told that this is a quote from the book,

 4     I wrote it nearly 20 years ago, it is available, then, fine.  But the

 5     account of how this arms smuggling worked in about 1994, beginning of

 6     1995, is accurate, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Ms. Bibles, you were on your feet as well.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Just briefly, Your Honour.  "Seasons in Hell"

10     written by this witness is available in the ICTY library.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the ICTY library has the book, which may

12     assist you.  Then I think we should take a break at this point in time.

13     We would have half an hour left after the break.

14             Mr. Vulliamy, would you be the first to leave the courtroom.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break, and we will resume at 13

18     minutes to 2.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.28 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22             Mr. Groome.

23             MR. GROOME:  While the witness is being brought in, in terms of

24     scheduling next week, Your Honour, because of a personal matter related

25     to one of our staff, I'm seeking to reverse the order of the first and

Page 2659

 1     second witnesses so that the first witness on Monday would be RM051 and

 2     the second witness would be Mr. Selak.

 3             I've spoken with my colleagues on the Defence and they have

 4     informed me that they have no objection, so with the Court's permission

 5     we'd like to make that switch.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll have a look at it.  But as -- usually

 7     there are no objections against such technical changes if the parties

 8     agree on it.  But we'll have a further look at it and let you know.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please be seated, Mr. Vulliamy.

11             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  I think as I indicated I would not be

13     seeking to tender this transcript selection into evidence, and I believe

14     that Mr. Vulliamy has now added that this was sometime later.

15        Q.   Am I correct to understand to that arms transfer was later in the

16     war period?

17        A.   It pertaining during a period of the war when there was a lot of

18     combat, ironically, given its content between the Bosnian government side

19     and the Croats, the HVO, that we were talking about.  And the Bosnians in

20     central -- in the central part of the country were cut off, and this was

21     when -- when they could get reference this is how it worked.  They would

22     have to sort of agree to their enemy taking a cut of the shipment, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the witness referred to 1994, beginning

24     of 1995.

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 2660

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now I'd like to move to another part of -- that I believe relates

 4     to what Mr. Stakic was talking about in the -- in the discussion that you

 5     had the shorthand for.  And this relates to Trnopolje, and, at this time

 6     I would like to play more of the footage from the other TV crew that was

 7     at Trnopolje.  That is, the Serb TV unit that was there.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And at this time, I would call up 65 ter number

 9     1D259, and this is selections from, again, that same video judgement, and

10     there are three separate sections.  I propose we deal with each section

11     individually.  And in the manner that Your Honours had suggested, I will

12     first play that segment one time over to allow the translation

13     verification to occur, and then I will play the second time and ask the

14     questions that I have with the witness, and we'll do each section

15     separately and then I will, depending on the answers I get, probably

16     tender this -- these three excerpts together as one number, which I

17     believe those are on a disc that is in the possession of Madam Registrar

18     so that hopefully will work.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic, could at any point in time the

20     Chamber be informed about who produced it.  There was word about crews

21     being in uniforms.  The Chamber would be interested in knowing about the

22     background, as we know everything about Mr. Vulliamy's background now,

23     about the background of those who produced this material --

24             MR. IVETIC:  With that mind, I have in the first clip I have the

25     actual beginning of the tape which gives the copyright information, and I

Page 2661

 1     have planned to endeavour to try to bring the persons that made the video

 2     as witnesses in this trial or -- or to present evidence of that nature.

 3     Obviously Mr. Vulliamy has given what he can.  I cannot offer more than

 4     that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Sooner or later we'll receive more information.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "Reporter:  Two film crews visiting a humanitarian refugee centre

10     in the village of Trnopolje, some 3 to 4 kilometres away from Omarska.

11     The centre was mainly used by people in transit.  They were trying to get

12     away from the fighting and needed a place to stay during their travels.

13     Our reporter, Mr. Bodjanac [phoen], talked to some of these people who

14     had escaped the war zone."

15             "Reporter: [No interpretation]."

16             MR. IVETIC:  And now --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll play it again.  Have the booth been provided

18     with transcripts in two languages?

19             MR. IVETIC:  [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you shouldn't present videos without

21     transcripts if you want to rely on the text spoken.  That's ...

22             MR. IVETIC:  That's not been the practice in other cases that

23     I've been involved in, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then that is --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Because we only have --

Page 2662

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- something we should discuss then.  It has been

 2     practice in -- as far as I remember all of the cases I was involved in.

 3     But if there is a different practice, then we should clarify this as soon

 4     as possible.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I agree.  Because the one problem we have,

 6     Your Honours, is we -- certain of the videos we have from the Prosecution

 7     we have translation -- transcripts someone has prepared, but with respect

 8     to material that we bring in from other sources, unless we prepare

 9     transcripts, I don't know.  Would that be acceptable to just prepare --

10     to have counsel or staff prepare transcripts or translation?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As long as it is done with the required

12     accuracy.  And then, of course, you should present it for translation or

13     have it translated in whatever way.

14             Could we exceptionally, apparently there being a

15     miscommunication, could we proceed and see whether -- whether it works at

16     this moment.  It will be discussed soon so as to resolve it on a

17     long-term basis.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  May it be noted that the quality of the sound

19     on the video-clip is not good enough for us to actually understand what

20     is being said.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean in the B/C/S original.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  In the B/C/S original.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest that -- was there ...

24             MR. IVETIC:  There were subtitles.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's subtitled so --

Page 2663

 1             MR. IVETIC:  The first two sections are.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  In order not to get stuck, the Chamber would like to

 5     proceed on the basis of the subtitles which is, of course, a bit odd

 6     because then it would be translated into B/C/S again, but the Defence

 7     team has every opportunity after that to see whether the badly

 8     understandable B/C/S version then is produced in such a way that we can

 9     work on the basis of that.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Would it perhaps assist, I can leave this part for

11     tomorrow since we will be going into tomorrow as well and I can move on

12     to another section.  Overnight I'm sure I can prepare a transcript of the

13     sections and then that might make it easier for ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  If you say you can deal with it

15     tomorrow, then you are encouraged to -- to proceed as you suggest.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I will do that, Your Honours, then, for the sake of

17     efficiency.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Sir --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Mladic again speak at such a volume that

22     it does not come through my earphones where I'm listening to the English.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   If we could leave this aside, sir, and move back to our

Page 2664

 1     discussion of Trnopolje.  Am I correct that there were not many persons

 2     that you would consider guards at this location?  Again, we're talking

 3     about Trnopolje.

 4        A.   There were quite a number of guards but not as many as there were

 5     at Omarska so far as I could gather.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   There were guards around the compound we saw in one of the

 8     earlier photos.  Quite a few of them, actually.

 9        Q.   And am I correct that quite a few of those guards came with the

10     convoy that you -- quite a few of the people from the video that you saw

11     earlier came in the convoy that you came with?  They were escorts of the

12     convoy?

13        A.   A few of them, but there were guards who were based at Trnopolje

14     also.  Obviously.  It was a camp.

15        Q.   Am I correct that there were sections of Trnopolje that were not

16     fenced in?

17        A.   There were some sections around the buildings that were not

18     fenced in and then there was the compound that we pulled up besides that

19     was fenced in.

20        Q.   And were there people congregating and moving about in the

21     sections that were not fenced in?

22        A.   They were people congregated, yes.  Absolutely.  They were

23     interned and they were moving about, yes.

24        Q.   Yes.  And if we can -- if I can ask you, sir, am I correct that

25     as far as both Omarska and Trnopolje are concerned, your assessment was

Page 2665

 1     that the facilities were run by the civil authorities and not the army?

 2        A.   Yes.  It had been pointed out to us at the meeting in Prijedor

 3     that these camps were being operated by the civilian authorities.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up 65 ter number 17992.  That was on

 5     the Prosecution's list.  And if we could look up page 3 in the English

 6     and page 4 in the Serbian.

 7        Q.   And when we get there, I'll be focussing on the section dealing

 8     with Trnopolje.  I apologise.  My monitor, I think, has just gone out,

 9     because nothing is coming up, ever, on anything.  Oh, here we go.  Now

10     it's back.  The section I want starts off:

11             "Trnopolje" --

12             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, it's the fourth page in English and the

13     sixth page in the Serbian.  I apologise.  I misread my notes.  And the

14     section that I want is in the middle of the page, the fifth paragraph in

15     the English, that we see now at the bottom on the screen in the English.

16        Q.   And, sir, if I can read this section for you and ask you to

17     comment.  First of all, this is -- this is a piece that you authored

18     called "Shame of Camp Omarska," dated 7 August, 1992.  Is that the

19     article that resulted from your -- immediately after your visits to

20     Omarska and Trnopolje that was published by your newspaper?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if I can direct your attention to this section talking about

23     Trnopolje.

24             "Trnopolje cannot be called a 'concentration camp' and is nowhere

25     as sinister as Omarska:  It is very grim, something between a civilian

Page 2666

 1     prison and a transit camp.  The Yugoslav Red Cross has a small station

 2     here, and there are meager cooking facilities."

 3             And now am I correct that when you used the term "concentration

 4     camp" here, you are concluding that Trnopolje was not a concentration

 5     camp of the nature that historically was used during World War II by one

 6     side?

 7        A.   Yes.  I was anxious to distinguish Trnopolje -- well, firstly

 8     from what I thought was happening in Omarska - or intuitively thought was

 9     happening Omarska which turned out to be right - but also from some of

10     the -- if Your Honours will bear with the context, it is on record before

11     but I'll say it now until you advise me otherwise:  There was a lot of

12     banding around of Belsen, 1992, and this kind of thing, and I wanted to

13     be fairly rigorous about this and to create a sort of distance from that

14     language.

15             So in terms of the use of the term "concentration camp" with

16     regard to the Nazi camps, I wanted to make that distance, that

17     distinction.  I've testified before and I will summarise very briefly,

18     unless you -- unless I'm questioned on this, I have revised that view

19     beginning with the convoy and discussed this a lot with people from both

20     the -- the -- the time of the Holocaust and now, that that is precisely

21     what Trnopolje was with regard to the original use of the term from

22     South Africa, a place where people were concentrated and abused, it

23     turned out, killed, raped, tortured, prior to enforced deportation.  It

24     was after the convoy which happened sometime later and with time that I

25     came to understand the complex purpose of Trnopolje.  It was a more

Page 2667

 1     complicated place than Omarska which was, I stand by that, a

 2     concentration camp, absolutely, and for things that we can discuss, if

 3     you ask me.

 4        Q.   You said a lot there.

 5        A.   I tried to answer your question, sir.  It's a complicated issue.

 6        Q.   It is.  Could you distinguish for me, sir, what part of your

 7     answer is based upon your eye-witness, objective, factual observation at

 8     Trnopolje, and what part is the result of your research in the years

 9     following, including apparently listening to second- and third-hand

10     accounts of persons that I do not who they are, who have not been made

11     available to me, and which I unfairly cannot comment upon, and that are

12     your partial or unneutral response to the situation?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, would you.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Are you able to, from this answer that you gave,

16     distinguish the parts that are objective and related to the factual

17     observations you made, and which parts are the result of your expert or

18     quasi-expert review in the years following your observations of

19     Trnopolje?  And again, I'm asking about Trnopolje.

20        A.   Yes, certainly I'd be happy to.  On the day we met people who had

21     come to Trnopolje for a variety of reasons.  The first group behind the

22     barbed wire fence had, as the article and I have said, arrived from

23     Keraterm that morning, wrongly called Kerater in the article.  These were

24     the ones who were held prisoner and were talking about abuses in this

25     other place from which they just arrived, Keraterm, including a massacre

Page 2668

 1     of reportedly 200 people, which is now familiar to this Tribunal.

 2             Other people had come for other reasons, and that's why it was

 3     difficult in the moment -- and this was a pretty sort of epic day, to

 4     work out exactly what Trnopolje was, because it is true some people had

 5     fled fighting, they said, some people had fled because their houses had

 6     been burned down and their villages attacked.  So it was -- it was a --

 7     it was a complicated place.  Different people were there for different

 8     reasons and for reasons I hope I've made clear.  I didn't want to call it

 9     a concentration camp on that day.  And that's the diff --

10        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

11        A.   -- that's my answer to you on the day.  But this idea of

12     quasi-expert review, second and third hand is incorrect and actually

13     quite offensive, forgive me, because these were the survivors of the camp

14     and those who had been -- who had been bereaved by the killing in the

15     camp.  They were certainly not second- or third-hand accounts.

16        Q.   Do you consider your recitation of their testimony to be first

17     hand or second hand, sir?

18        A.   I was not a prisoner in Trnopolje.

19        Q.   That's my point.

20        A.   They were.  But --

21        Q.   Are you testifying in their name, sir, for these people that are

22     out of court, for whom we don't have their interview notes, we don't have

23     their statements.  Is that your intention here today?

24        A.   No, absolutely not.  I'm here to testify to what I saw.

25        Q.   I'd like to return to what you wrote in 1992 and further dilate

Page 2669

 1     upon these things that you claim you saw in Trnopolje.

 2             You mentioned the Keraterm massacre.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to the fourth page in this -- in this

 4     document, the sixth page in Serbian.

 5        Q.   You mention the extent of your factual objective observations in

 6     regards to this from Trnopolje as follows, and it starts off again on

 7     that page.  It starts off:  "Another boy, Icic Budo...," and I'll read it

 8     first:

 9             "Another boy, Icic Budo, says they killed 200 people at Keraterm

10     and many more at Omarska.  He has seen no bodies himself but another boy

11     saw one corpse near the main gate."

12             At the time that you wrote this after your visits to Trnopolje,

13     was this the extent of your source of information regarding this from

14     Keraterm, a boy who actually didn't see anything himself?

15        A.   That and the testimony of Fikret Alic who had also been in

16     Keraterm.

17        Q.   Okay.  And the testimony of Fikret Alic occurred in 1992 or at

18     some other time, sir?

19        A.   1992 and later in 1993 when I met him at length.

20        Q.   Okay.  So, again, I'm trying to focus on what you objectively saw

21     as to opposed to what you learned later when you were researching and

22     decided to become an advocate for a particular position, sir.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a question or a comment, Mr. Ivetic, "when

24     you decided to become an advocate"?  That is --

25             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 2670

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that a question, then you'd first ask the witness

 2     and not put that somewhere hidden in your question, yes?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's, to some extent, from the Defence point

 5     of view, an accusation.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I understand, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Am I -- let's see.  If I could move on to the bottom

 9     of page -- of this page in English, and the bottom of page 6 in the

10     Serbian --

11        Q.   And you mentioned the people that there were for various reasons,

12     and I think after this quote in question we will probably be at the time

13     for the break, but I we could finish it:

14             "But some have fled voluntarily to Trnopolje simply to avoid the

15     raging battles in the villages around.  Inar Gornic, clutching her crying

16     baby in what was the school Foto Klub room says:

17             "'I came alone, from the Trnopolje village.  The conditions are

18     very hard here, but there was terrible fighting, and we had no food at

19     all.  It is safer here, but we don't know with a kind of status we have.

20     We are refugees, but there are guards and the wire fence.'

21             "'No violence against us, just hot and smelly,' adds her

22     husband."

23             Would you agree with me, sir, that there were in fact many

24     individuals at Trnopolje who had similar stories that they left their

25     villages of their own accord to get away from intense fighting occurring

Page 2671

 1     between two parties that were armed?

 2        A.   Some seem have indeed come from intense fighting.  Others have

 3     lost their families.  You quoted the boy Budo who says just before you

 4     began that they don't want us here anymore.  They want us to leave with

 5     our families, if I can find my family, I think he says, or something.

 6     As I say, it was a tragic and awful place, and that fighting was in --

 7     did appear to have two sides, yes, from what they're saying here, but

 8     there was certainly not two sides in Kozarac where we went through

 9     before, and I'm --

10        Q.   And you base that on what personal observation, sir?

11        A.   The place had been flattened.

12        Q.   Can there not be two sides fighting then for a place to be

13     flattened?  Depends on when it occurs.

14        A.   It was interesting -- if we're talking about Kozarac, now, what

15     was interesting was that the Serbian houses were left untouched and the

16     people were still living in them.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

18             MR. IVETIC:  We're at the break.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I'm looking at the clock.  We will adjourn for

20     the day.

21             Mr. Vulliamy, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

22             Mr. Ivetic --

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could you give us an indication as the time you

25     would need so that -- and still in the presence of Mr. Vulliamy, because

Page 2672

 1     he might be interested in it as well.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I anticipate finishing within an hour and a half of

 3     tomorrow's -- which would leave remainder of the day for whatever else

 4     needs to be with the witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, under normal circumstances we would

 6     easily - I'm also looking at you, Ms. Bibles - we'd easily conclude your

 7     testimony tomorrow, Mr. Vulliamy.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may leave the courtroom.  We would like to you

10     back, but I first would like to instruct you that you should not speak or

11     communicate in whatever other way with whomever about your testimony,

12     whether testimony given today or still to be given tomorrow.

13             You may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Two brief matters.

17             First of all, Mr. Ivetic, for D43, which is the video extract of

18     the judgement, there is a surrogate sheet now in e-court but there is no

19     transcript in e-court for that video either.

20             Then, next matter.  A meeting has been scheduled for this

21     afternoon to resolve the matters of uploading, releasing, with -- of

22     evidentiary materials in e-court with all parties involved.  For the

23     Defence I would say to the extent your Case Manager would be there, or --

24     then, yes, then that would -- his presence would be appreciated as well.

25     So that's both for the Prosecution and the Defence, but ITSS is involved,

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 1     Registry is involved, and I'll attend that meeting as well.

 2             Then we adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

 3     20th of September at half past 9.00 in the morning in this same

 4     courtroom, I.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of

 7                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.