Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2942

 1                           Tuesday, 25 September 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case number IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus

10     Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             If there are no preliminaries, could the witness be escorted into

13     the courtroom; curtains down first.  They will be open again in a second.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Witness RM051.  Please be seated.

16                           WITNESS:  RM051 [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you indicated

19     yesterday that you would have two more questions for the witness.  But

20     before you put them to the witness, Witness RM051, I'd like to remind you

21     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

22     beginning of your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

23     and nothing but the truth.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2943

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Sir, you stated that in December 1992, the Manjaca camp ceased to

 4     exist.  While you were there, at any point in time did a delegation

 5     including Paddy Ashdown visit the camp?  What were their comments after

 6     the visit, if you remember?

 7        A.   Yes, there was a delegation including Mr. Paddy Ashdown.

 8     However, on that day I was not there.  I know very little about that

 9     visit, so I will not be of much use to you there.

10        Q.   Did you follow the media reports from that visit?

11        A.   Well, unfortunately, even that I don't remember.  I don't

12     remember much detail.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And I will finish my cross-examination with a

14     question about your stay in Sarajevo.  My question has to do with your

15     possible contacts with Mr. Mladic.  Did you know that Mr. Mladic had a

16     family house in the Pofalici neighbourhood of Sarajevo and that house was

17     set on fire in May 1992?

18        A.   I don't know that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  It may have taken a little bit longer than expected,

20     but, in any case, thank you for your answers and for your assistance.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings my

22     cross-examination to an end.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2944

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser, you indicated that you'd need up to

 2     15 minutes, I think.  Please proceed.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And good morning.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please have exhibit number P235,

 6     under -- and that is under seal, on the screen.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, during yesterday's testimony at transcript pages 2892

 8     through 3, you testified that the MUP members who transferred the

 9     detainees were in charge of the safety of those detainees until they had

10     gone through your formal admission process.  Do you recall that set of

11     questions and answers?  I'm drawing your attention to them now.

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, looking at P235, this document, dated 10 August 1992,

14     describes an incident in which eight prisoners brought from Omarska to

15     Manjaca were killed, four of whom were evidently beaten to death prior to

16     their formal admission into Manjaca; is that right?  Does that accurately

17     describe this document?

18        A.   Yes, it is accurate.

19        Q.   Now, the beatings of those prisoners that resulted in their death

20     occurred in view of the Manjaca camp personnel, including yourself; is

21     that right?

22        A.   Yes.  When we learnt that that was happening right outside the

23     camp, outside of the camp's perimeter.  The camp commander, Popovic,

24     intervened first.  However, his intervention did not put a stop to that.

25     That's why I went out and tried to put a stop to it myself.

Page 2945

 1             During my intervention I was warned by some uniformed personnel

 2     wearing uniforms of the civilian police that should I continue to

 3     intervene, according to them, if I continued to shout at them, I would

 4     fair the same as those who were on the ground.  Obviously I gave up.

 5     When I reported to my superiors about the case, I describe the situation

 6     and this report is a result of that.

 7        Q.   When you say "it was occurring right outside the perimeter," can

 8     you tell this Chamber the geographical proximity to the inside of Manjaca

 9     camp?  What do you mean by "right outside the perimeter"?

10        A.   Well, that was some 50 metres away from the barbed wire.  But let

11     me try and clarify the circumstances under which that happened.  The

12     prisoners of war who had been brought in, together with their escorts,

13     spent the entire night on the trucks and around the trucks around the

14     camp, some 50 metres away from the barbed wire.  They could not be

15     admitted during the night.  According to regulations, night-time

16     conditions are not appropriate for the admission of detainees.

17        Q.   Okay.  So the reason that those detainees were still in their

18     transport vehicles right outside -- right outside the barbed wire was so

19     that you could conduct your intake process, and that was the instruction

20     of the Manjaca camp; is that correct?

21        A.   Not only of the Manjaca camp instructions, but also according to

22     our own regulations that were drafted long before the war started, long

23     before the Manjaca camp was set up.  The instructions stated that the

24     intake of the detainees should not be carried out during the night.  The

25     transport arrived around 10.00 in the evening.  It was summertime but it

Page 2946

 1     was already dark.  According to the regulations, they could not be

 2     admitted during the night.  They had to wait for the dawn and that's what

 3     they had been told.  They spent the entire night on the trucks and around

 4     the trucks, together with the security guards who were their escorts.  In

 5     other words, they spent the night some 50 metres away from the camp, from

 6     the barbed wire around the camp.

 7        Q.   Now, in exhibit number P233, which was your daily report of

 8     7 August, you asked the one -- the 1st Krajina Corps Command to take

 9     measures to ensure that this didn't happen again; is that right?

10        A.   That's right.  That's correct.  And you can read that in the

11     report as well.

12        Q.   Sir, yesterday you spoke about the deaths of Filipovic and

13     Bender, and you told the Chamber at page -- transcript page 2895, I

14     believe it's lines 15 through 16, that you were surprised by their

15     killings, and I would like to draw your attention to that line of

16     questioning from yesterday, okay?  Filipovic and Bender were killed on or

17     about the 29th of July, 1992, by military policemen inside the Manjaca

18     camp; is that right?

19        A.   That's correct.  That happened within the camp.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could see, please, P231, and that's

22     also a document that's under seal, on the screen, please.

23        Q.   Sir, P231, which is dated 23 July 1992, and I draw your attention

24     to the bottom of page 1 into page 2 in the English, and I believe it's

25     the same in the B/C/S, it says:

Page 2947

 1             "So we warned once again that the military police commander

 2     should be informed that the POW camp Manjaca is not a torture house."

 3             And, again, sir, in P229, also under seal, which pre-dates

 4     (redacted)

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I apologise, I'm going to ask to

 7     go into closed session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2948











11 Pages 2948-2951 redacted. Private session.















Page 2952

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

16        Q.   Sir, you testified yesterday that all of the people held at

17     Manjaca signed the statement of the Red Cross in order to be transported

18     out of the country, that they all willingly signed that statement.  Can

19     you tell us what would have happened to them had they not signed the

20     paper agreeing to leave?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Wouldn't that call for speculation,

22     Madam Hochhauser.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If he knows.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How would he know if it didn't happen.  You say

25     what would have happened if they hadn't signed.  So it didn't happen.

Page 2953

 1     They signed.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, if you think it calls for

 3     speculation, I can withdraw the question.  I think he was aware of the

 4     process that was going on and perhaps he also --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if you asked what happened to those who did

 6     not sign, then you are asking him about facts.  But if you say, What

 7     would have happened if they hadn't signed, you're asking for speculation.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay, Your Honour.  I'll withdraw the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, Ms. Hochhauser, I would be interested,

10     as a matter of fact, whether anything was said to these prisoners before

11     they would sign.

12             Do you know whether anything was told to these prisoners before

13     they were invited to sign such as, If you sign, this happens; if you do

14     not sign, that happens.  Was anything said to these prisoners?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what?  I can't be of much

16     assistance there.  The signing of that statement and its drafting was

17     organised by the ICRC.  I know very little about that.

18             This was not organised either by the camp or the camp command.

19     It was the ICRC that did that, in order for them to be certain that they

20     could take those people away and send them wherever they wanted to go.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does that mean that without such a signature

22     the ICRC would not take them out of the camp?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Any -- any further questions?

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your

Page 2954

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Oh, I do apologise.  Just one thing that

 4     remained from yesterday, which was 65 ter number 7052.  Which was used by

 5     the -- by Defence counsel in his cross-examination.  The Court noted that

 6     there was some information missing from that translation, the date on the

 7     top.  We've located actually a final translation.  What had been loaded

 8     into e-court was a draft translation.  We've provided it to

 9     Mr. Stojanovic and he agrees that we can load the final translation which

10     does indicate the information that had been missing.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you done so, Mr. Stojanovic?

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  So we would have to have leave from the Court to

13     replace what's in there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, let's see where we are with 65 ter 7052.

15     Is it -- it's not admitted.  It's not admitted.  That means that every

16     party could replace whatever is there, even without the approval of the

17     Court.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it was your 65 ter number.  Have you replaced

20     it or has Mr. Stojanovic replaced it?

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  We'll do it, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It will be done.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, did you intend to tender it?  Because I noted

24     that you have not tendered any of the documents you used yesterday, if

25     I'm not wrong.  Was that what you intended to do?

Page 2955

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  I

 2     think that most of these documents that I used have already been admitted

 3     into evidence as tendered by the Prosecution.  If I'm not mistaken, it's

 4     only one document, 65 ter 07052, was not admitted as tendered by the

 5     Prosecution, but I do not intend to burden the case with that additional

 6     document.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you were on your feet when we

10     started discussing after you had informed us that you did not -- did not

11     intend to tender 07052.  Would you like to add anything to that or?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I don't think

13     that I made a mistake.  I think that all the other documents have been

14     admitted into evidence as tendered by the OTP.  We did not oppose any one

15     of them.  So that is what I had to say.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber may consider whether or not the

17     Chamber would like to have in evidence any document you used which is not

18     yet admitted as a P exhibit.  We'll consider that.  We'll look at them

19     and let the parties know if we would want any of these documents to be in

20     evidence.

21             Judge Fluegge has one question or more questions, perhaps.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, thank you.

24             Sir, I just would like to get a clarification.  On page 9, lines

25     14 through 16, you told us something about a media report about three

Page 2956

 1     Serbian heads that had been cut off and placed in an ammunition box.  I

 2     would kindly ask you to clarify.  At the beginning of that sentence, you

 3     said:

 4             "At Manjaca, we were shown three Serbian heads ..."

 5             What do you mean by that, "in Manjaca"?  What happened at Manjaca

 6     in relation to this incident?

 7        A.   I just wanted to say what the context was, the time and the

 8     situation in which we fought up there in terms of the conduct of our own

 9     people and their attitude towards the prisoners.  During those days,

10     sometime in June, near Teslic - and is Teslic is about 70 kilometres away

11     from Banja Luka, that's where the front line was - these Serb heads were

12     cut off, the heads of Serb combatants, and they were put in a box, in an

13     ammunition box, and a picture was taken of someone holding one of these

14     heads that was still bleeding.

15             So what was the situation?  People were watching that.  And how

16     do I put this?  We are striving for the rights of the people that we are

17     holding in that camp.  So this is quite a struggle.  The situation --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a very simple question.  You are recorded

19     to have said:

20             "At Manjaca, we were shown three Serbian heads that had been cut

21     off."

22             How -- how did that happen?  That you were shown these heads or

23     pictures or movies of these heads at Manjaca?  What happened at Manjaca

24     in relation to this event?

25        A.   Well, the media, the newspapers, that's where these pictures of

Page 2957

 1     the cut heads could be seen.  In the newspapers.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you were in Manjaca when you saw these media

 3     reports.  Is that the right understanding of your answer?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification --

 6        A.   And we showed that to the members of the ICRC so that they would

 7     react and - how do I put this? - to have this known.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have received your answer and the

 9     clarification.  That's enough.  Thank you.

10        A.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I asked you yesterday about a

12     document you said you would use in relation to the persons which were

13     responsible for the death of Filipovic and Bender, and you said, yes, we

14     are also going to use a document.  Which document did you have on your

15     mind; when and how did you use it?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  This is a

17     report dated the 29th of July, 1992, P222.  This is a document in which

18     the names of these persons are specified.  Person who are suspected of

19     having committed this crime.  And there's a reference to the status of

20     these persons.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I was mainly interested in - and that's

22     what I expected, more or less - that you would also produce any documents

23     on these persons responsible being tried, especially because the witness

24     said that it happened rather late.  Do you have any documentary evidence

25     which -- by which we could see when they were prosecuted?  And, as

Page 2958

 1     indicated, were sentenced to long sentences.

 2             When were they prosecuted?  Do you have any documentary evidence

 3     for that?  I'm not seeking you as a witness, but if the witness would

 4     know, of course, we could ask him as well.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Do you know when the persons responsible for the killing of

 8     Mr. Filipovic and Bender were prosecuted?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were tried before the district

10     court in Banja Luka in 2007.  (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know, since everything was reported, do you

13     have any knowledge about the reason why they were not prosecuted in 1993

14     or 1994 or 1995 or -- and only 15 years after the event?

15        A.   I don't know.  And I think that from here, from The Hague

16     Tribunal, a certain documentation arrived.  There was certain evidence

17     that arrived, and it is only then that proceedings were instituted.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it your testimony that there was no evidence and

19     there was, at the time, available, after you reported it, after it was

20     investigated, that there was no evidence available, knowing the names of

21     the perpetrators, to start proceedings?

22             Is that your evidence?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you that we immediately

24     established who the perpetrators were and took statements from them and

25     did everything else that is proper by way of collecting evidence, and

Page 2959

 1     this was kept at the district court in Banja Luka.  It was brought there

 2     by the on-site investigation team or whoever it was.  And why proceedings

 3     were not instituted all the way up until then, I really cannot say.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a withdrawal of the explanation that it was

 5     because evidentiary material had to be received from The Hague?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right.  I mean, I am

 7     concluding that now because there were so many searches and such a lot of

 8     material was seized.  Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying.

 9             You asked me and I inferred that this came from this abundance of

10     material that had been seized and that then it was brought back from

11     The Hague.  That is just something that I thought, but it doesn't

12     necessarily have to be the correct conclusion.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

14             Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions triggered by the questions

15     in re-examination or questions by the Bench?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honour,

17     that is based on the question put by my learned colleague, the

18     Prosecutor.

19                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, you said that you knew part of the detainees from the

22     Manjaca centre were transferred to Batkovic at one point in time.  This

23     is my question:  Do you know that the ICRC had been informed about this

24     fact and that these persons were sent to Batkovic?

25        A.   Certainly.  The ICRC came to Manjaca very often, and they knew

Page 2960

 1     about everything we did in relation to the prisoners.  We had a few

 2     exchanges, not only the people who went to Batkovic but also a few

 3     exchanges of prisoners for our own combatants.  These exchanges took

 4     place either with the Croatian side or the Muslim side, 10 or 20 persons

 5     at a time, and we also familiarised the members of the ICRC team with

 6     these exchanges and names.

 7        Q.   I'm going to end with the following question.  Since you referred

 8     to these exchanges, in these exchanges were there ever exchanges that had

 9     to do with civilians who had remained in the territory under the control

10     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   I cannot say.  We had only the prisoners we had, and then it was

12     the corps commission.  I mean, the corps had a commission for the

13     exchange of POWs and they compiled lists, and they weighed the importance

14     of the people exchanged.  They would just say to us, Can we have such and

15     such and such a person from Manjaca in order to have these people

16     exchanged for our people.  Now whether they were civilians or whether

17     they were soldiers, I cannot say.  I think that they were primarily

18     soldiers.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you announced one question which was

20     directly related to a question put by Ms. Hochhauser and now you're

21     revisiting the whole of the release, exchange, et cetera.  I don't think

22     that that is what we expect you to do at this moment.  Any further

23     questions?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  That would be

25     all.  Thank you.

Page 2961

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM051, this concludes your evidence in this

 2     court.  I would to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for

 3     answered all of the questions that were put to you either by the parties

 4     or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.  Once the

 5     curtains are down, you may follow the usher and leave the courtroom.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher could you, at the same time, escort the

 8     next witness into the courtroom, if the Prosecution is ready to call its

 9     next witness.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, no protective measures for the next

13     witness.

14             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then curtains can be up again and the screen can be

16     removed.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, can I ask that we go into private

18     session for a brief matter related to the next witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2962

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could take advantage of these few

16     moments to say the following.  Due to the limited overlap between

17     Mr. Osman Selak's statement and the adjudicated facts, we have not made

18     redactions.  However, I will be limiting my examination regarding Manjaca

19     camp in reliance on adjudicated facts 460 through 472, and the attack on

20     Kozarac village in Prijedor in reliance on adjudicated facts 877 through

21     892.

22             Your Honour, there is one matter that's unresolved and that's the

23     matter with respect to the chart.  The Chamber wanted to think about

24     that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The -- the parties agreed apparently on -- at

Page 2963

 1     least there's no objections from the Defence to proceed as you suggested.

 2             At the same time, but we'll address that in the near future, the

 3     creativity, inventivity of the Prosecution seems to lead to a situation

 4     which we wanted to avoid.  With the previous witness we saw that there

 5     was a long list of associated exhibits where the guidance of the Chamber

 6     clearly was to limit the number.  Now through these kind of charts, of

 7     course, we are again receiving quite a lot of documentary evidence where

 8     we wanted to put certain limits on that.  We'll further consider this and

 9     we might come up with further guidance for the parties, but it's not --

10     the guidance was not intended to encourage you to find other ways of

11     getting much documentary evidence and perhaps not be as critical as the

12     Chamber expects parties to be in presenting such evidence.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution has endeavoured to

14     focus this case, and I think that we've already demonstrated that.  Each

15     of the attorneys that takes a witness has made a selection and that's

16     been overseen by myself or other senior members of team.  We are prepared

17     at any moment to explain to the Chamber why we have made those

18     selections, so should the Chamber ever have any doubt about the purpose

19     or relevance of a particular exhibit, the Prosecution is prepared to

20     address that.  The fact remains, though, that there are -- there is a

21     large body of evidence which undoubtedly is directly relevant to an

22     adjudication of this indictment.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

25             Good morning, Mr. Selak.  Before you give evidence --

Page 2964

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the Rules require that you make a solemn

 3     declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to

 4     make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  OSMAN SELAK

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed -- please be seated,

10     Mr. Selak.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to clarify matters, Mr. Groome, and in addition

14     to what I said earlier, for this witness the Chamber has accepted it, not

15     yet for any future witness, the use of these charts.  It may also depend

16     on number of documents covered by the charts, et cetera.  But we would

17     like to consider that on a case by case basis.

18             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  We will not proceed without

19     seeking specific amendment or exception to the Chamber's general rule.

20     Thanks.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak, sorry to deal with matters which you're

22     not involved in.  You'll --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be examined by Mr. Groome and

25     Mr. Groome is counsel for the Prosecution.  You'll find him to your

Page 2965

 1     right.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Groome:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Selak.  Could I ask you to please state your

 6     full name for the record?

 7        A.   Osman Selak [No interpretation].

 8        Q.   And could you tell us where you were born?

 9        A.   In Visegrad, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   And what is your ethnicity?

11        A.   Muslim.

12        Q.   Mr. Selak, in your statement it describes you as a retired

13     military officer.  In what year did you begin your career in the

14     military?

15        A.   I completed the Technical Military Academy in 1958 in Zagreb,

16     Croatia.  That is when I received my commission as a second lieutenant in

17     the technical services of the JNA.  I was transferred to serve in

18     Banja Luka at the Tank Military Academy in Banja Luka.

19        Q.   And what was the highest rank you achieved during your military

20     career?

21        A.   Colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army.  That was my last rank.

22        Q.   And can I ask you in a sentence or two to summarise your

23     responsibilities in the army during the spring and summer of 1992?  What

24     was the main area that you were responsible for?

25        A.   When I received the rank of colonel, I was appointed commander of

Page 2966

 1     the logistics base of the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo.  I held that

 2     post until I retired and that was in 1992, the month of June -- July, I

 3     beg your pardon.

 4        Q.   You say you retired in July of 1992.  Did you remain or were you

 5     in the VRS -- after -- after the JNA, at least the portion that was in

 6     Bosnia, became the VRS, did you remain in the VRS for some weeks?

 7        A.   Your Honours, on the 18th of May, 1992, the units of the JNA that

 8     were deployed in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina were renamed the

 9     Army of Republika Srpska.  The units that had withdrawn from Slovenia and

10     Croatia and had arrived in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina were also

11     renamed into the Army of Republika Srpska.  An oath had to be taken to

12     the Army of Republika Srpska.  However, already on the 19th of May, I

13     submitted my request for retirement because I did not want to accept to

14     become a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

15        Q.   Did you abandon your post or did you continue working until you

16     were, in fact, retired?

17        A.   My request to retire was forwarded to Belgrade, since the

18     authority is there responsible for that matter.  I waited for a decision

19     to be taken, and when the order arrived -- up until the order arrived on

20     the 10th of July from Belgrade, I continued to perform my duties as

21     commander of the logistics base.  When the order arrived, I handed over

22     my duties to Cendic, Rade, when the order arrived for my retirement.

23             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment to

24     take the morning break.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a convenient moment.

Page 2967

 1             Mr. Groome, you referred to a statement by the witness.  Now it's

 2     quite common for 92 ter witnesses that we first hear the attestation to

 3     the statement and that the statement is identified and then admitted into

 4     evidence.  We have not -- you proceeded in a different way today.  I do

 5     not know whether there's any specific reason for that.

 6             MR. GROOME:  There is, Your Honour.  Essentially, it's -- this is

 7     not the first witness statement the witness gave but a subsequent

 8     statement and it does not contain the background, so I thought before the

 9     Chamber could rule on the 92 ter, it might be best to have some idea of

10     who the witness is.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That explains your situation.

12             We'll take a break, but could the witness first be escorted out

13     of the courtroom.

14             Mr. Selak, we'd like to see you back in some 20 minutes.  You may

15     follow the usher.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to

18     11.00 sharp.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  The chart that we discussed prior to the break is

25     65 ter 28432.  Because I am dealing with these exhibits in a summary

Page 2968

 1     fashion, I thought it might be of assistance to the Chamber to have a

 2     hard copy before them, so I've given the Court Officer a copy for each of

 3     Your Honours, if you think it will assist.  And Mr. Lukic has also been

 4     provided a copy.

 5             And the chart and the tabs on the individual documents are key to

 6     that chart.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, Mr. Groome.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, please proceed.

10             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Could I ask the Court Officer to bring to our screens 65 ter

12     28421.

13        Q.   While that's being done, Mr. Selak, do you recall giving a

14     statement to the ICTY, a statement that you signed on the 13th of July,

15     2000?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. GROOME:  And while it is being brought to the screen, I would

18     note for the record that the handwritten numbers next to the

19     paragraphs were added after the witness signed this statement.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Selak, we can see it on our screens and could I draw

21     your attention to the two signatures at the bottom of that first page.

22     Do you recognise either of those signatures?  Apparently there are three,

23     I'm sorry.  Do you recognise any of the signatures on that page?

24        A.   Yes.  The first signature is mine.

25             MR. GROOME:  Could I now ask that we go to the last page.  And

Page 2969

 1     could I ask that we focus on the top half of the page.

 2        Q.   And now we can see that on our screen, Mr. Selak.  And I ask you:

 3     Do you recognise that signature?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's my signature.

 5        Q.   In preparation for your testimony before the Chamber here today,

 6     were you asked to carefully review this statement?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did you so, in fact, carefully review it?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  I read through it from the beginning to the end.

10        Q.   Are there any corrections that you wish to make to it?

11        A.   No.  I stand by all the information I provided in the statement.

12        Q.   If I were to take the time this morning to ask you questions

13     similar to those that were asked when the statement was given, would your

14     answers be the same, in substance?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

17     the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, before I tender this statement I do

20     want to point out a typographical error, and to do that I ask that we

21     first go to paragraph 57 of the statement.  It is on e-court page 9 in

22     both languages.  Your Honours will see a reference to an order signed by

23     General Talic on 7 June 1992.  Your Honours, this is associated exhibit

24     18347.

25             Now, having noted that, I would ask the Court Officer that we

Page 2970

 1     take a quick look at 18347.  It is an order signed by General Talic on 7

 2     June 1993.  As Your Honours will note, the date was incorrectly

 3     transcribed into the statement.  I will be asking the witness a few

 4     questions later in my examination to explain this but did want to draw

 5     Your Honours' attention to this typographical error before tendering the

 6     statement.  And now we can see 18347 on the screens before us.

 7             Your Honours, with that explanation and with the foundation for

 8     admission under 92 ter having been laid, I now tender 65 ter 28421 as the

 9     next public Prosecution exhibit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 28421 will be Exhibit P244.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. GROOME:

15        Q.   Mr. Selak, your statement at paragraphs 59 and 60 discusses a

16     meeting at which you were present in which General Talic, on the 1st of

17     June, 1992, gave an order regarding the establishment of Manjaca camp.  I

18     will be asking you several questions about this meeting in a few moments,

19     but at this time I only have a very specific question for you, at this

20     point.  After Manjaca was established in June of 1992, did there come a

21     time that you know it was closed, also in 1992?

22        A.   The camp was officially closed in December 1992.  I know this

23     from contact I had with colleagues of mine, officers.  I was already

24     retired.  And it was also from contact with colleagues from the VRS.

25     They said that in December the camp at the training ground for armoured

Page 2971

 1     mechanised units in Manjaca had been closed.

 2        Q.   Now could I ask that 65 ter 18347 be returned to our screens, and

 3     this is a document you saw only moments ago.  Can I ask you to explain to

 4     the Chamber your understanding of why this document is dated 1993?

 5        A.   This concerns the time when the Manjaca camp was opened.  Again,

 6     it was closed in December 1992.  I assume that the intention here was to

 7     establish the Manjaca camp, the prisoners of war again.  That's what

 8     happened.  People were brought in in buses and lorries and so on and so

 9     forth.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, as set out in Schedule C item 1.2 in

11     the indictment, the period during which the Prosecution alleges crimes

12     occurred is between June and December 1992.  Despite this, the

13     Prosecution at this time tenders 18347 regarding the re-opening of

14     Manjaca for the limited purpose of establishing that the VRS retained

15     control over Manjaca camp, even after the relevant period in the

16     indictment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I hear of no objections.

18             Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 18347 will become

20     Exhibit P245.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, there are eight exhibits associated to

23     Mr. Selak's statement now in evidence as P244.  Upon review, the

24     Prosecution will not tender them all but will only tender three.  And if

25     it pleases the Court, I'm prepared to enumerate them individually, if

Page 2972

 1     that assists.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please enumerate them individually.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, because of the age of this statement

 4     there is no cross-reference -- easy cross-reference between the

 5     associated exhibit and -- an exhibit on the 65 ter list, so I'm going to

 6     read a brief description of the document as well.

 7             03039, a combat report of the 1st Krajina Corps, number 44-1/156,

 8     dated 1 June 1992.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  No objections.

10             Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 03039 will be Exhibit P246.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             Next one, Mr. Groome.

14             MR. GROOME:  07128, a report of the 1st Krajina Corps, number

15     474-1, dated 27 May 1992.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 07128 will be Exhibit P247.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P247 is admitted.

19             Please, the next one.

20             MR. GROOME:  The last associated exhibit the Prosecution will

21     tender, Your Honours, is 16505.  It's a combat report of the 1st Krajina

22     Corps, number 44-1/259, dated 26 July 1992.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 16505 will be Exhibit P248, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 2973

 1             P248 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, now with the permission of the Court I

 3     would like to read a public summary of Mr. Selak's written evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

 5             MR. GROOME:  Osman Selak describes the communications and command

 6     and control systems in the JNA and then the VRS.  He describes the

 7     complete integration between the military and the civilian Crisis Staffs.

 8     Mr. Selak was present at a meeting shortly after the attack on Kozarac in

 9     Prijedor municipality.  During that meeting, what happened at Kozarac was

10     discussed briefly, and this relates to indictment Schedule A, item 6.1.

11             Mr. Selak also describes the creation of Manjaca camp at the

12     order of General Talic and his own visit to Manjaca.  And this relates to

13     indictment Schedule C, 1.2.

14             Your Honours, this concludes the public summary of Mr. Selak's

15     evidence.  Of course, the entire statement is now in evidence and is

16     available to the public.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, there are two maps and two

19     organisational charts that will assist the Chamber in understanding

20     Mr. Selak's evidence.  These four graphics have been combined under

21     65 ter 28431 for ease of use, and I would ask that this exhibit now be

22     called to our screens.

23        Q.   Mr. Selak, while that is it being done, were you asked in

24     preparation for your testimony here this morning to review some maps and

25     some organisational charts related to your evidence?

Page 2974

 1        A.   No.  Nothing was shown to me today.  And no one contacted me

 2     about that.  There was nothing of that kind today.

 3        Q.   Perhaps there was a mistranslation.  On the screen before you is

 4     a map.  Were you asked to look at this map in preparation of your

 5     testimony?

 6        A.   Yes.  In the course of the preparation for my testimony, yes.

 7     But not today.

 8        Q.   Now --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The -- the problem seems to be that you understood

10     "this morning" as that you were asked this morning to do it, whereas I

11     understand Mr. Groome's question to refer to in preparation of the

12     evidence you will give this morning.  That apparently is causing some

13     confusion.

14             Please proceed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  I apologise for that confusion.

17        Q.   Mr. Selak, we are now looking at the map of the 1st Krajina Corps

18     area of responsibility.  Can I ask you to describe or tell us the

19     different locations that are indicated on the map.  What is the

20     significance of these locations?

21        A.   The Banja Luka Corps, Your Honours, well, its command was in

22     Banja Luka and it covered the entire territory you can see in the map

23     above the BiH letters; Glamoc, Gornji Vakuf, Jajce, Mrkonjic Grad,

24     Teslic, Doboj, Modrica, Bosanski Brod, and as far as Prijedor.  It didn't

25     extend beyond Prijedor because the 2nd Krajina Corps and ABiH units were

Page 2975

 1     present in that area.

 2        Q.   And the specific locations that are marked on this map, were --

 3     were members of the 1st Krajina Corps in those areas?

 4        A.   Yes.  Your Honours, the 1st Krajina Corps - I'm talking about the

 5     27th of May in 1992 - had about 100.000 armed men.  A normal corps, when

 6     it is mobilised, has between 15- and 18.000 men, and in exceptional

 7     circumstances 20.000 men.  So the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS covered

 8     this entire area.  Its units, brigades, regiments, and battalions were in

 9     this area.  They covered the entire area.  They provided security for the

10     authorities of Republika Srpska.

11             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we advance to e-court page 2.

12        Q.   And Mr. Selak, when you are able to see it my first question is

13     simply:  Was this one of the graphs or graphics that you were asked to

14     review before today?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And does it accurately depict the command structure and the

17     personal in that command structure at the time you left the VRS?

18        A.   Yes, it does.

19        Q.   Now, in your statement, P244 in evidence, you mention a

20     Colonel Marcetic.  Is that person indicated on this map?  If so, can you

21     direct us to where using words since we will not be able to see where you

22     point.

23        A.   It's the third person from the one on the top.  Where it says the

24     corps command, if you go down, it's the third person below.  You have

25     Talic and then Kelecevic, and then beneath him, Dragan Marcetic,

Page 2976

 1     assistant chief of staff for operations in the corps command in

 2     Banja Luka.

 3             MR. GROOME:  Could we now please advance to e-court page 3.

 4        Q.   Colonel Selak, you were the commander of the VRS 14th Logistics

 5     Base for a period of time.  Does this map accurately reflect the 14th

 6     Logistics Base area of responsibility?

 7        A.   Yes, it does.

 8        Q.   Did Manjaca camp fall within the area of responsibility of the

 9     14th Logistics Base?

10        A.   Yes.  The Manjaca camp was under the command of the

11     Krajina Corps.  The Military Academy for Tanks for the JNA was there

12     before the war.  Its command was in Banja Luka.  But when the war broke

13     out, all the areas fell under the responsibility of the Krajina Corps.

14     So the training compound in Manjaca - that's what we call it because they

15     fired from tanks on tanks there, you'd test ammunition, obstacles would

16     be set up, the area covered about 700 hectares, and this was under the

17     responsibility of the Krajina Corps.

18        Q.   Now the only specific question I'd like to ask you at this stage

19     about Manjaca camp is the following.  Given your experience in supplying

20     that facility, are you able to tell us how many people that facility was

21     designed to accommodate?  In other words, can you tell us with respect to

22     the size of its shelters and the quantity of its sanitary facilities

23     approximately how many people was it designed to house?

24        A.   In peacetime when it functioned as a training ground for firing

25     exercises, for tank manoeuvres, the people who worked there and the

Page 2977

 1     soldiers doing their military service, well, there were about 70 or 80 of

 2     them, but when other units came for the target practice then the number

 3     would increase.  Some of them could have been in -- accommodated in some

 4     of the facilities of the training ground.  Others had to use tents.

 5     Tents had to be put up to accommodate them.

 6        Q.   And based on your experience, what would be the approximate

 7     maximum number of people that could be properly housed there?

 8        A.   I was performing my duties at the compound for two years.  I know

 9     all the facilities very well.  The maximum number that could be

10     accommodated in the buildings was between 150 and 170.  I'm not sure, but

11     roughly speaking it would be about 170 people.  Perhaps if they used

12     those military bunk beds, perhaps if they used such beds about 200 people

13     could be accommodated.

14             MR. GROOME:  Finally, can we look at e-court page 4.

15        Q.   And, Colonel Selak, my question to you regarding this document is

16     whether it is an organisational chart of the personnel involved in

17     logistics in the VRS at the time you left military service.

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20     these four graphics, 65 ter 28431, as a public exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections.

22             Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 65 ter 28431 whether become

24     Exhibit P249.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P249 is admitted into evidence.

Page 2978

 1             MR. GROOME:  Could I now ask that 28432 be brought to our

 2     screens.

 3        Q.   Mr. Selak, in preparation for your testimony, were you asked to

 4     review eight military documents and make any observations you might have

 5     on both the authenticity of the document as well as its content?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Were you asked to record your observations in a chart?

 8        A.   Yes.  And my signature -- and the signature.

 9        Q.   Now -- 28432 is on the screen now.  It does not have any of your

10     handwriting on it.

11             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we advance to the second page.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Selak, are those -- that's your signature that appears

13     on this page?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we go to the last page.

16        Q.   And is that your signature on this page.

17        A.   Yes, the 24th of December, 2012.

18        Q.   Sir --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is a surprising date.

20             MR. GROOME:  Yes.

21        Q.   Sir, when did you sign this document?

22        A.   I apologise.  I signed it yesterday.  I see that the year is

23     2012.  It was a slip.  I do apologise.  It's my mistake.

24        Q.   So you say --

25        A.   September.  September.  I apologise.  It was a slip.

Page 2979

 1        Q.   Having corrected that, does this document accurately -- or does

 2     it contain your observations regarding the documents that you reviewed?

 3        A.   Yes, it does.

 4        Q.   Are you willing to answer any additional questions the Mladic

 5     Defence or the Chamber may have about this chart or these documents?

 6        A.   Yes, I am.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, in keeping with my proposal, I will

 8     postpone my tendering of 28432 and the underlying documents until

 9     Mr. Lukic has an opportunity to explore this area with Mr. Selak.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll proceed as you suggest.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, I would like to ask Mr. Selak an

12     additional question regarding one of the documents in this chart.  It is

13     65 ter 02838.  Could I ask that that be please brought to our screens.

14        Q.   Mr. Selak, I'm going to ask you to look at the first page of this

15     document.  It's one of the documents you've seen before.  Once you've had

16     a moment to orient yourself to which document, could I ask that we go to

17     e-court page 2.  That's in both languages.  The portion that I'm

18     interested in is in the middle of the original and at the top of the

19     English.

20             Sir, if you look at page 2 of this report, it speaks about 7.000

21     people being arrested and that 2.000 of them were taken to Omarska, and

22     it identifies these people as Green Berets.  Can I ask you to tell us

23     whether, based on your knowledge, at the time this is an accurate

24     description?

25        A.   Yes, they were arrested, but it wasn't the Green Berets.  Far

Page 2980

 1     more people were arrested.  The inhabitants of these municipalities that

 2     are mentioned, and in particular Prijedor and Kozarac municipalities.

 3     Camps were established around Prijedor, Hambarine, Trnopolje, and there

 4     was another one.  Three camps were established and the Muslim inhabitants

 5     were placed in them.  The Muslim inhabitants who lived in that area.

 6     They were placed in those camps Hambarine, Trnopolje, and Omarska, yes.

 7     There were women, children, and elderly people.  There were no

 8     Green Berets because those inhabitants had no weapons apart from hunting

 9     weapons that they had from before the war.  Some people had pistols.

10     However, the houses were searched.  These items were seized or

11     confiscated and there was no fighting.

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, there are two large, albeit important,

13     documents on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  It is not my intention to

14     tender them at this moment, but this witness is uniquely positioned to

15     describe their purpose and use, and I will lead evidence on that now.

16             Could I ask that the witness be shown 65 ter 18351.

17        Q.   Mr. Selak, when this document appears before you I have a few

18     very specific and limited questions about it.  My first question is:  Do

19     you recognise the type of book that this book is?

20        A.   This is a log-book which contains all the documents signed by the

21     authorised officer.  Documents sent to subordinate units but reports were

22     sent to superiors.  So all these documents have to be entered in this

23     log-book and they have to be certified with a stamp.  They are then

24     attributed numbers.

25        Q.   Was -- was it required to maintain a book such as this in

Page 2981

 1     commands both in the JNA and in the VRS, at least for the period while

 2     you were in the VRS?

 3        A.   That was a legal requirement.  All the units had to have such

 4     log-books because documents that hadn't been certified, that hadn't been

 5     numbered, were not valid documents.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Could I now ask that we call 65 ter 14871 to our

 7     screens.  And, again, I'll have the same very specific and limited

 8     questions regarding this book.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   Do you recognise what this book is?

12        A.   Your Honours, this is a war diary.  During any war, there's a

13     special war diary where you enter special events in the area where war

14     operations take place.  For each and every unit, we had to record what

15     its activities were.  Here you see the date.  From the 24th of June to

16     the 30th of August.  During that time, same major operations were going

17     on.  The war diary did not have so many pages, so we had to use the

18     second and the third and the fourth book, and this is proof that some

19     operation was carried out legally and that everything was done by the

20     book.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Selak.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, having elicited this information about

23     the books and their use, the Prosecution does not seek to tender them or

24     to have them marked for identification at this time.  We would rather

25     leave them -- or propose to leave them identified only by their 65 ter

Page 2982

 1     number if that is acceptable to the Court.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, we recently received a lengthy

 3     explanation about the system.  It means that what is under your 65 ter

 4     number in e-court you could replace it as long as it's not MFI'd or

 5     admitted by whatever.  Now, I'm not suggesting that you would intend to

 6     do that, but at the same time we'd not be certain that what we find later

 7     under the same 65 ter number would be the same as what was shown to the

 8     witness.  Therefore, I suggest that it be MFI'd.

 9             MR. GROOME:  That is perfectly acceptable to the Prosecution,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 18351 will be P250, marked

14     for identification.  And 65 ter 14871 will be P251, marked for

15     identification.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P250 and P251 are marked for identification.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Selak, I would like to draw your attention to the time

20     you left the VRS.  And you say in paragraph 65 of your statement at P244,

21     you resigned from the army because of an attitude of complete Serb

22     domination.  Did you resign freely or did you feel compelled to resign?

23        A.   I left of my own will.  I knew that some negative activities

24     would ensue.  Letters arrived from political organisations, from Crisis

25     Staffs, and in those letters it said that Muslims and Croats should be

Page 2983

 1     removed from the VRS.  I knew that in advance.  I knew in advance what to

 2     expect, and that's why on the 19th of May, 1992, I asked to be pensioned

 3     off because I knew I would be controlled.  I had received telephone

 4     threats.  In the media, I read that I should leave the army, together

 5     with another 18 Serbs.  And that's why I left the army.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Could I ask that we now see 65 ter 18356 on our

 7     screens.  It is the transcript of a radio broadcast.  When it appears on

 8     the screen before you, Mr. Selak, my first question is simply:  Did you

 9     have an opportunity to review this document in preparation for your

10     testimony?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you tell us what it is.

13        A.   This information was on Radio Banja Luka and in the morning news.

14     This is about requests to differentiate between the VRS officers along

15     the ethnic lines.  Apparently there was a fear that Bosniaks and Croats

16     might impair the unity of command in the VRS.

17        Q.   At the time -- or around the time that you left the VRS, do you

18     recall hearing radio broadcasts of similar or of the same substance as

19     this?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, at this time I'd ask that 65 ter 18356

22     be admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 18356 will be Exhibit P252.

Page 2984

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Mr. Selak, in paragraphs 86 and 87 of your statement, you briefly

 4     mention a meeting on 27 May 1992 in which the attack on Kozarac was

 5     discussed.  I would like to go into a bit more detail about that meeting.

 6             Before I ask you what happened at that meeting, I first want to

 7     ask you some very specific questions about the purpose of the meeting,

 8     who was present, and how the people at the meeting were seated so that

 9     the Chamber can better understand your evidence.  My first question:  How

10     many people attended this meeting on the 27th of May?

11        A.   I believe that there were anything between 10 and 12 people, not

12     more.  Those were the corps commander, his assistants, and myself as the

13     commander of the logistics base in Banja Luka.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we perhaps have a document P244 on the

15     screen.  Then it's easier to follow.

16             MR. GROOME:  Yes.  Could that please be done, P244.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Paragraphs 86 and 87.

18             MR. GROOME:

19        Q.   Now when you said "corps commander," do you mean by that

20     General Talic?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And when you say "assistants," do you mean other senior members

23     of the 1st Krajina Corps?

24        A.   Your Honours, I meant the assistants of the corps commander

25     because the corps commander had several assistants.  The chief for

Page 2985

 1     security, morale, logistics, for political situations, and so on and so

 2     forth.  All of them had to be present during that briefing, and if the

 3     assistants were not available, their deputies had to attend.  It was a

 4     kind of a briefing and each of the sectors had to be represented to brief

 5     the commander about the activities from within their purviews.

 6             And I attended as the commander of the logistics base, which

 7     provided logistical support to the 1st Corps of the VRS.  I had to be

 8     briefed about any of the problems concerning logistics.  In order to gain

 9     time, as soon as I heard about the problems, I immediately ordered my

10     assistants to start dealing with those problems.  That's why the corps

11     commander had invited me to attend the meeting in the first place.

12        Q.   Mr. Selak, just a couple of more specific questions before I ask

13     you to tell us more about what happened during that meeting.  Where did

14     the meeting take place?

15        A.   That meeting took place at the corps command in the meeting room.

16     Not in the commander's office.  Next to his office, there was a meeting

17     room which could accommodate up to 15 people.  Various meetings used to

18     take place there involving organs of the civilian authorities as part of

19     the communication between the army and the civilian authorities.

20        Q.   Just want to give the Chamber some idea about what this room

21     looked like.  Can you describe what was in that room?  Was there a table

22     in the room?  Was it simply chairs?  What was in that room?

23        A.   There was a -- a long table with chairs on both sides of the

24     table.  It could accommodate up to 15 to 16 people.  The commander was at

25     the head of the table, and all the S and Ds were seated following a

Page 2986

 1     certain order.  The commander's Chief of Staff was next to the commander,

 2     then the chief of security and other assistants for morale guidance and

 3     so on and so forth.  And there was also, if I may mention this straight

 4     away, at that meeting on that day the assistant commander for operations

 5     and education was also there, and he was also the head of the management

 6     team for that day, Colonel Dragan Marcetic.

 7        Q.   Now let's just take it step by step so the Chamber has a clear

 8     step of this meeting.  You said that General Talic was at the head of the

 9     table.  Where was Colonel Dragan --

10        A.   Talic.

11        Q.   Where was -- where was Colonel Dragan Marcetic with respect to

12     where -- in relationship to where General Talic was sitting?

13        A.   I would like to illustrate that.  For example, if you extend this

14     desk where I'm standing by the length of three or four such desks,

15     General Talic was at head.  On the right-hand side was

16     Colonel Busko Jelecevic, his deputy.  Colonel Dragan Marcetic was sitting

17     next to him.  He was the chief of the operations and education.  And the

18     other officers and the assistants of the corps commander and -- were

19     here, and I was sitting immediately next to Dragan Marcetic.  The other

20     assistants were further along the table.  They were seated in a circle.

21     And that was a briefing and the meeting.

22        Q.   Let me see if I can capture what you've done -- you've motioned

23     somewhat with your hands.  Am I correct in saying that General Talic was

24     at the head of the table and to his right along the right-hand side of

25     the table were a number of people --

Page 2987

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- including Colonel Marcetic and yourself?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And am I correct in saying that you were further away from

 5     General Talic than Marcetic?

 6        A.   Yes.  I was sitting next to Marcetic.  The first person to --

 7     next to the general was Bosko Kelecevic, then Marcetic, and then myself.

 8     So I was the third in line from the -- from Talic.

 9        Q.   Now my last question before I ask you to describe what happened

10     at that meeting is the following.  Can you briefly summarise what

11     Colonel Marcetic's area of responsibility was?

12        A.   According to establishment, he was the assistant commander for

13     operations and education in the corps.

14             However, in the corps command during the war there existed what

15     you may call the management team and one of the colonels had to head it.

16     That management team, Your Honours, acted on behalf of the commander and

17     was in command of all the units in the corps.  The commander moved

18     through the zone of responsibility of the corps, so all the units sent

19     their reports to the command.  Those reports were received by the team on

20     duty, the management team.  When the commander returned to the command,

21     the head of the management team briefed the commander what had happened

22     while he was away, and that's why that management team also issued orders

23     on behalf of the commander.  Those orders were sent to the units.  And

24     that team knew what the commander's order would be, and then they

25     reported back to the commander.  On that day, the head of the management

Page 2988

 1     team was Colonel Dragan Marcetic.  He briefed the commander as to what

 2     had been taking place in the corps units in the area on that particular

 3     day.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Selak, I want to ask you another question, and a simple

 5     yes or no at this moment.  Did there come a time when Colonel Marcetic

 6     gave a report on Kozarac?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now can I ask you to describe for the Chamber slowly and in some

 9     detail that report and what happened over the course of him giving that

10     report?  Can you do that for us?

11        A.   Your Honours, during the briefing, when Colonel Dragan Marcetic

12     briefed the general, he did it in this way.  General, sir, 800 people

13     were killed today in Kozarac.  And while he was saying 800 people,

14     General Talic spontaneously looked in my direction, because I was the

15     only Bosniak, the only Muslim at that meeting, and he knew that only

16     Muslims lived in Kozarac and that Muslims were killed.  He suddenly felt

17     that he did wrong to look at me and then he turned his eyes towards

18     Colonel Marcetic and ordered him this.  Dragan, you must mean 80 people,

19     and this is what you want to report to the Main Staff of the Army of

20     Republika Srpska, and that report was sent and we have a document in

21     which it says that between 80 and 100 people were killed.

22             And, Your Honours, in my log-book from 1991, I entered that 800

23     people had been killed.  Unfortunately, Your Honours, Colonel Marcetic,

24     knowing that I was there, already reduced the number from the original

25     1200 to 800.  At the institute for war crimes in Sarajevo, we are

Page 2989

 1     currently investigating that crime.  Unfortunately, the number was much

 2     higher.  I apologise.

 3        Q.   I know that you have your book with you, but we have a digital

 4     version and I will ask that the Judges take a look at that before you

 5     conclude your evidence, okay.

 6             Given the context of the meeting and what transpired during --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome if you look at the very last line of the

 8     statement of the witness, the witness -- and if you look his last answer,

 9     especially page 47, line 15, could you try to resolve this slight

10     inconsistency.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. GROOME:  Just give me a moment, Your Honour.

13        Q.   I believe --

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   -- His Honour is concerned with the number that you've just said.

16     Can you -- what did you write at the time and then what's your

17     understanding since that time?

18        A.   I made a note that 800 people were killed and 1200 taken

19     prisoner.  However, in addition to the 1200 prisoners, we have combined

20     information that over 1200 were killed.  Those who were taken prisoner

21     were imprisoned at the Trnopolje and Keraterm camps.  There was a larger

22     number of dead.  And that's why construction machinery was sent there in

23     order to bury all those who were killed.  I did not put that in my

24     statement, but I do know that construction machinery was sent there and

25     not all the dead bodies have been discovered.

Page 2990

 1        Q.   Can I ask that we look at the last paragraph of your statement.

 2     We can see it in English but I don't believe we can see it in your

 3     language yet.  And in it you refer to 2.000 people.  Can I ask you to

 4     tell us what you mean by this number.  What people are you precise --

 5     precisely, what people are you referring to?

 6        A.   We spoke about Prijedor.  However, within I mentioned the figure

 7     of 2.000, I also included Sanski Most and Bosanski Brod or, rather,

 8     Bosanski Novi which were the neighbouring municipalities.  However, to

 9     this very day we have not been able to locate all the bodies.  The figure

10     of dead from those municipalities is about 2.000 according to the

11     statements of the inmates of Keraterm and Trnopolje.  We have their

12     statements at the War Crimes Institute in Sarajevo.

13             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, does that address -- address your

14     concern?  I can explore it more deeply.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I would like to ask one clarifying question.

16             Mr. Selak, could I ask you to carefully read, especially

17     paragraph 86, and we have to move to the previous page in B/C/S.

18             It reads that:

19             "... in Kozarac, over a roadblock, 800 dead, 1200 captured ..."

20             The 2.000 people dead, you said, Well, there were even more than

21     800 dead.  Did you then already refer to an area wider than Kozarac?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honours, this is an

23     official report by the organs of the corps command.  Everybody knew that

24     international laws of war were violated.  That's why the true information

25     was hidden.  Unfortunately, this figure is already high, but the true

Page 2991

 1     figure is much higher than that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So the 800 may have been true for Kozarac; but for

 3     the wider area, there were more than 800 dead, if I understand you well,

 4     even 2.000 persons.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you say in paragraph 87:

 7             "The facts were that 2.000 people were dead."

 8             It is your belief that Marcetic already reduced this number to

 9     800.  But the 800 mentioned in paragraph 86 are just Kozarac.  Would that

10     mean that he -- in reporting, he reduced by limiting the area to only

11     Kozarac, that he thus limited the number of people killed?  Or were there

12     even more than 800 people killed at a roadblock in Kozarac?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, who was it who

14     counted those who were killed by the VRS tried to reduce the number

15     deliberately.  Secondly, Your Honour, when I heard that information I

16     warranted to go to Kozarac personally to see what had happened there.

17     However, my deputy, Colonel Radic Cendic told me, Commander, you can't go

18     there.  My deputy was a Serb from Serbia proper.  He was afraid that I

19     would be killed if I saw that.  That's why I didn't go there.

20             This is the official figure which was recorded in their own

21     records.  However, in the report that they sent to the Main Staff, they

22     mentioned only 80 people who were killed.  So the number was largely

23     reduced in order for the commander to avoid personal responsibility

24     because the laws of war were violated.  It was a genocide, Your Honours.

25     Besides Srebrenica, I personally claim that another genocide was

Page 2992

 1     committed in Kozarac.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- you've answered my question.  You say

 3     General Talic reduced the number by saying only 80, not 800.  And, as I

 4     understand you, you -- the counting of 800 dead in Kozarac may have been

 5     not fully in line with the actual number of people that died in Kozarac

 6     and the wider area.  Is that a fair summary of your answer?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Unfortunately, those are the

 8     facts that we are currently researching at the institute, and we have

 9     arrived at a larger figure than that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may proceed, Mr. Groome.  But I'm also

11     looking at the clock.

12             MR. GROOME:  I'll try to time it so that we pause at the break.

13        Q.   Mr. Selak, paragraphs 59 and 60 of your statement, now in

14     evidence as P244, briefly describe a meeting that you were present at

15     during which General Talic gave an order with respect to Manjaca camp.  I

16     want to ask you a few more detailed questions about this meeting before

17     we take a break.  And the first question is:  Can you simply tell us

18     where did this meeting take place?

19        A.   It was a briefing held in Commander Talic's office.

20        Q.   And can you describe what happened at that meeting with respect

21     to Manjaca?  Limit yourself to Manjaca.

22        A.   This was a briefing.  The assistant commanders briefed the

23     commander.  And when General Talic took the floor, he said that at

24     Manjaca training ground a prisoner of war camp should be set up to

25     accommodate approximately 2500 people.  I have that figure in my official

Page 2993

 1     diary that I have here.  There were some other issues that were raised at

 2     that meeting and they were all recorded in my war diary, which was also

 3     my official log-book.

 4        Q.   Mr. Selak, I think it probably best to wait until after the break

 5     to show Their Honours that book.  But let me ask you a few questions

 6     about that book.  Were officers like yourself required to maintain a

 7     military notebook?

 8        A.   Your Honours, all the officers were obliged to keep official

 9     log-books, and we also had a war diary that we have just seen recently,

10     and no officer was allowed to enter my office without that log-book

11     because they were supposed to enter all the tasks that they received, and

12     any court will take that as evidence if there were some problems or

13     issues with an individual's command responsibility.  There were two types

14     of --

15        Q.   Was it expected --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple answer was yes.  You explain a lot.  If

17     Mr. Groome is interested to hear more about it, he'll have some follow-up

18     questions for you.

19             Required to maintain a military --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is yes.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. GROOME:

24        Q.   Was it expected that the officers complete or fill out their

25     notebooks at the time the even or the meeting took place?  In other

Page 2994

 1     words, was it to be contemporaneous with whatever it was they were

 2     recording?

 3        A.   It was their obligation.  At that meeting, they had to record all

 4     the issues, not only those from within their purview but from the purview

 5     of other organs because that was a record of what was going on at the

 6     level of their units.  They had to make a note of that because if you

 7     don't make a note of things in the log-books, you tended to forget.

 8     Every officer had to make a note of all the issues that were raised and

 9     debated at the meeting as well as any orders that were issued.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, is that a convenient moment to take a

11     break?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a convenient moment to take a break.

13             Could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.

14             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, while that's happening if I could just

22     raise a scheduling matter.

23             I've just spoken with the Defence with respect to advancing a

24     witness.  I am concerned that next week we may not be able to make full

25     use of the hearing time given the pace that we are proceeding, so I've

Page 2995

 1     just discussed with Mr. Lukic the possibility of advancing RM081 from

 2     week ten into the Friday of week nine.  He hasn't expressed a view on it

 3     yet.  Perhaps we can raise it before the end of this week to see if the

 4     Chamber would permit such an advance, but, anyway, just to try and make

 5     efficient use of court time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that Mr. Lukic will make up his mind

 7     as to whether he opposes or not.  It's usually more important for the

 8     Defence to know in advance than it is for the Chamber.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  When we are informed in a timely manner like this, we

10     wouldn't have any objections, of course.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is -- like this, you consider this a timely.

12     Does that mean that you do not oppose, Mr. Lukic?  I'm trying to fully

13     understand your words.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I don't by heart if all the deadlines are respected

15     like 92 ter 30-day deadline.  But if it's --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll further hear from you whether it meets

17     any opposition or not.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Selak.

21             Mr. Groome.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could I ask that 65 ter

24     08797 be brought to our screens.

25        Q.   Mr. Selak, just prior to the break we were talking about military

Page 2996

 1     notebooks in general, and I want to now ask you one more general

 2     question, then some specific questions about your practice, your

 3     notebooks.  First, was there an obligation once a military notebook was

 4     completed, was filled, that it be turned in?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, when you left the military service, did you turn in your

 7     last notebook?

 8        A.   I did not.

 9        Q.   We can see on the screens before us a notebook.  Do you recognise

10     this book, or the page that we see on the screen?

11        A.   Yes.  That is my notebook.  And the date is the 9th of -- 19th of

12     December, 1991.  That is when I started using that notebook.

13        Q.   And is this the book that you used until the time that you left

14     military service?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Without taking -- without going to your brief-case, did you bring

17     the original with you to The Hague?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Should the Chamber, Mr. Mladic, or his attorneys wish to view the

20     original, are you willing to make it available for them to look at?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, it is my intention now to look at a

23     excerpt of the book, the pages that are directly relevant to the meetings

24     today.  It's not beyond all possibility that some point later in the

25     trial the Chamber may wish to -- or the Prosecution or the Defence may

Page 2997

 1     wish to tender another entry from the book, so I'll be guided by the

 2     Chamber whether it would prefer that I seek to mark it for identification

 3     now or to leave it as is and simply tender the pages.  I do want the

 4     foundation that has just been laid to be connected to the book should it

 5     ever be needed or other excerpts be needed in the future.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me consult with my colleagues for a second.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, the Chamber accepts that you use only an

 9     excerpt at this moment.  However, if later on portions should be added to

10     it, because we then will have to decide whether we make new exhibit

11     numbers or whether we include them with the -- with leave of the Chamber

12     in the existing ones, it is important that you refer to dates primarily,

13     and to -- if there are page numbers, not exceptionally not the e-court

14     page numbers but the page numbers of the notebook itself.

15              And there I already see a possible first problem.  Because on my

16     English version on the first page I see a number 1 at the bottom of the

17     page; whereas, in the original, I do not see -- not see a corresponding

18     number 1.  But for the time being, we can proceed as you suggest.  But

19     dates are, at this moment, most important, and perhaps you could also use

20     ERN numbers which are found in the original so that it's easier to

21     retrieve pages at a later stage in this original.

22             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  And with respect to the concern

23     that the Chamber raised earlier with respect to another large document, I

24     would note that this book has been tendered and admitted into evidence in

25     its entirety in several other cases, so the Chamber would be able --

Page 2998

 1     would have the means to confirm that the original 65 ter number hasn't --

 2     hasn't changed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I -- yes.  But I take it that the pages

 4     you're going to use, that they -- you're tendering those as part of

 5     this -- today's excerpt?

 6             MR. GROOME:  I have a subsidiary derivative exhibit, Your Honour.

 7     The same 65 ter number but with the letter A, and it is simply the

 8     meeting notes from the two meetings that have been discussed here today.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed as suggested.

10             MR. GROOME:

11        Q.   Mr. Selak, yesterday did I ask you to identify the pages in your

12     notebook which contained your contemporaneous meetings of the two

13     meetings which you've given evidence about today, the one related to

14     Kozarac and the one related to Manjaca?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  Could I now ask that we have on our screens 08797A.

17     These are pages taken -- or a selection of four pages taken from

18     Mr. Selak's notebook.  They are pages 117, 118, 124, and 125 of the

19     original e-court pages; and e-court pages 150, 151, 158, and 159 of the

20     English translation.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Selak, we can see one of the pages before us.  We can

22     zoom in to either side if that assists.  But can you tell us which

23     meeting this particular entry refers to?

24        A.   No, the other one.  Yes, yes, this is it.  That's the meeting at

25     the commander's, the commander of the 5th Krajina Corps.  I attended the

Page 2999

 1     meeting and I jotted down the questions that were dealt with at the

 2     meeting.

 3        Q.   And is this the meeting in which Kozarac was discussed?

 4        A.   Yes.  You can see it here, the third question dealt with:  "In

 5     Kozarac, because of a roadblock," alleged roadblock, "800 dead, 1200

 6     captured."  Your Honours, this is the 343rd Motorised Brigade that did

 7     that.

 8        Q.   Am I correct - and so that we mark it clearly for the record -

 9     that your note on this meeting begins on the internally numbered page of

10     your notebook, page number 223.

11        A.   Yes.  223, that's right.

12             MR. GROOME:  Can we advance to the next page and look at 224.

13     And this is the internal number on the notebook itself.

14        Q.   Does this also contain some notes --

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. GROOME:  Can I ask that we advance to e-court page 3 of

17     08797A.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, we cannot verify the number at the top

19     of the page because it's --

20             MR. GROOME:  Could we please return to it, to the page that --

21     the second page, and focus on the top left-hand corner.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.

23             MR. GROOME:  Could we now please advance to the third page.

24        Q.   And can you guide us to where the -- the text or your notes

25     about -- that are relevant to your evidence begin.  On the left-hand page

Page 3000

 1     or the right-hand page?  And then we'll zoom in.

 2        A.   On the right-hand side, there is the total number of personnel in

 3     the corps and other attached units, so it's about one hundred one

 4     thousand men.  So on the 1st of June in terms of the food that had to be

 5     provided by the logistics base, that was the personnel level of the 1st

 6     Krajina Corps and its subordinated units in the field.

 7        Q.   Mr. Selak can you guide us to where your notes about the meeting

 8     in which Manjaca was discussed?  Can you guide us to where your notes on

 9     that meeting begin?

10        A.   It's not on this page.  No, not Manjaca.  Now --

11        Q.   Can we --

12        A.   No.  We'll have to look further on.  Manjaca is not here.

13             MR. GROOME:  Can we please advance to the next page in e-court.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.  997.  Your page

15     997.  Page -- or, rather, bullet point 4.  These are the orders of the

16     corps commander, the 4th task, the fourth point is that POW camp at

17     Manjaca should urgently be established for approximately 2.500 persons.

18     Urgently.

19             MR. GROOME:  And according to the internal numbering of the

20     notebook it is page 238, and according to the evidence stamp of the

21     Office of the Prosecutor that number ends in 6997.

22             Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders these pages 65

23     ter 0797A [sic] as a public exhibit.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 08797A will be Exhibit P253.

Page 3001

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. GROOME:

 3        Q.   Mr. Selak, the Chamber over the course of the last few weeks has

 4     received evidence describing Manjaca and the conditions there.  Did you

 5     ever personally visit Manjaca while it was being used to detain

 6     prisoners?  After this order was given.

 7        A.   Yes, I did visit the camp at Manjaca.  May I give a boarder

 8     explanation, Your Honours?

 9        Q.   I'm going to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I invite you to listen to the questions carefully

11     and answer them.  Mr. Groome is limited in his time.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. GROOME:

14        Q.   Can ask you, and this is my last question for you here today, is

15     can you describe for the Chamber what you observed when you went and

16     visited Manjaca?  And if you could begin telling us when precisely it was

17     that you visited the camp.

18        A.   Your Honours, the second day after this meeting, the assistant

19     corps commander for logistics, Colonel Vaso Tepsic and I took one car and

20     General Talic, the corps commander, took another car and we went to

21     Manjaca together.  General Talic went to see the commander of the

22     training grounds up there, Colonel Popovic, and Colonel Tepsic and I went

23     to the former stables.  I mean, that's where stables, barns were for

24     cattle, and now they were used for putting up prisoners of war.

25     Colonel Tepsic and I entered these buildings, and we found about 100 to

Page 3002

 1     130 men there.  Some of them had been beaten up.  You could see blood on

 2     their faces and on their clothing.  Some of them were naked to the waist.

 3     They were working on cleaning the barns of the waste, the cattle waste

 4     that had remained.  That's how they were put up there.  The officer who

 5     was on duty issued an order to them that said, Attention.  None of them

 6     moved.  They all lowered their heads.  It was terrible.  I mean, the

 7     very -- the very image that I saw then, I tell you, it sends shivers down

 8     my spine to this day.

 9             Then we went to Colonel Popovic.  However, he said that he would

10     take other measures.  Unfortunately, quite a few people were killed in

11     this camp.  First they were beaten up, and later on they succumbed to the

12     wounds due to their mistreatment.  However, there are records - I don't

13     have them personally, but there are records of the names and surnames of

14     the persons who were mistreated and thereby killed.

15        Q.   Mr. Selak, earlier today at transcript page 34 you said that the

16     Manjaca complex was approximately 700 hectares.  My question to you is:

17     Are you able to estimate how much of this 700 hectares was reserved for

18     the detention of prisoners?  What part of it was used to keep these

19     people detained?

20        A.   I personally think that there were six or seven buildings there,

21     prefabricated buildings that were used as cattle barns before.  So the

22     area is perhaps a hectare and a half or two, because there was free space

23     among the buildings.  I never actually measured it.  But it seems to be,

24     say, one and a half hectares or two.  It was to the left of the main road

25     that led to these training grounds, and on the right-hand side there were

Page 3003

 1     proper buildings for the command, headquarters, for soldiers manning the

 2     training grounds.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Selak, for answering my questions.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I have no further questions at this

 5     time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

 7             Since we have dealt with your diary, could I take you back to the

 8     excerpt, the four pages under the number A.  And could I have a look at

 9     the second page in English.

10             Mr. Selak, I think we have it here.  One second, please.  Yes.

11             Could we zoom in under upper half of the ...

12             This is the last part of your report on a meeting with the

13     5th Corps commander on the 27th of May.

14             The last line reads:

15             "He is against the war option, 800 killed."

16             Could you tell me who is the "he" in this sentence and what does

17     this actually mean?  If you remember.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this last question

19     where it says "he is against the war option" and then he is surprised by

20     the fact that 800 persons were killed, he was afraid because it was

21     international law of war that had been violated.  These were civilians.

22     The population of Kozarac.  And that is why his order was to report that

23     80 persons were casualties there.  Even that is too much.  Somebody

24     should have been held responsibility.  However, he was afraid that this

25     information would reach the command of the army and that he would be held

Page 3004

 1     responsible as the superior officer because he had not taken measures

 2     against the perpetrator of this crime.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just to make sure that I do understand it.  Is

 4     this General Talic, then, "he," or is it ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  These are bullet

 6     points.  And the corps commander spoke about this at this meeting.  So if

 7     you look at this other one that has to do with the Chief of Staff,

 8     Main Staff, analyse the food rations for the troops of the 5th Corps and

 9     others, so he is issuing orders to have this analyses carried out.  All

10     of these are orders of the commander of the 5th Corps of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, to fully understand this line, if you say, He

13     is again the war option, that is ambiguous language.  It could mean that

14     he is against --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corps commander, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If you wait for one second.

17             It could mean that he is against going to war or continue the

18     war, because, already, 800 people have been killed.  It could also be

19     that you say he is against the war option, he is against reporting it as

20     a war event, those 800 killed.  Could you elaborate a little bit more

21     about what now exactly it means that he is against the war option?  Is

22     that part -- is that related to the reporting on the events, or is it

23     related to what General Talic would like to happen in the future?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honour, I understand the

25     question.

Page 3005

 1             I personally knew General Talic very well.  Basically he was not

 2     a bad man.  However, he carried out -- he had to carry out the orders of

 3     his superior command.  He was carrying out orders.  I also think that he

 4     was not pleased by this number of citizens who had lost their lives.  He

 5     had to report about that, but he had to take disciplinary measures

 6     against the perpetrators and that's the commander of the 343rd Command

 7     Motorised Brigade in Prijedor.  However, no measures were taken,

 8     Your Honour.  As a matter of fact, that commander, later on, received the

 9     rank of colonel.  But Talic was carrying out orders of his superior

10     command.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now let me verify whether I understood your answer.

12             Is it that General Talic expressed that he was not happy with the

13     conflict to be resolved by armed force and referred to the 800 people

14     already killed and that he would prefer another option than armed force.

15             Is that how I have to understand it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  General Talic

17     officially stated that, that he was not in favour of the war option.

18     However, the corps did exist and he carried out -- he implemented the

19     policy of the government of Republika Srpska.  He had to do that because

20     he was their organ.  I personally think that General Talic was not in

21     favour of that war option.  In this area where Muslims were a majority

22     population, there were well known operations carried out even during the

23     Second World War.  Unfortunately, many people lost their lives then as

24     well.  I don't know about the future, what it's going to be like either.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.

Page 3006

 1             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak, you'll now be cross-examined by

 4     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic and you'll find him to

 5     your left.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel Selak.

 9        A.   Good afternoon, sir.

10        Q.   His Honour has already introduced me, so can we start now?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Today you say that information was being concealed when we speak

13     about these 80, 800 casualties in Kozarac.  In your view, the duty was to

14     report that 800 persons had been killed.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the report said that 80 persons had been killed?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In terms of what had been reported --

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, can we now have a document

20     in e-court now.  070 -- or, rather, 07128.  The number assigned to it was

21     P247.

22        Q.   This document says that these persons were killed in combat;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So it is not stated that they had been liquidated.  So this is

Page 3007

 1     the document that went to the superior command; right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.  However this document -- actually, this is a

 3     report.  It is not accurate.

 4        Q.   We've already heard that.

 5        A.   This is false information being sent to the superior command

 6     precisely because they were afraid of what the consequences would be.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak please answer the questions put by

 8     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is interested in a matter which is different than

 9     the matter; that is, about reporting and what information was received at

10     the higher levels.  That's what Mr. Lukic is concerned.  And you have

11     already explained extensively that what was reported was not in

12     accordance with the truth.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know what sort of information reached the

16     1st Krajina Corps?  Do you know whether misinformation arrived from the

17     field?  Were the reports correct?  Do you have any information about

18     whether there were reports about who was killed by whom and when?  Do you

19     have any -- did you have any such information?

20        A.   Sir, at the briefing when Colonel Marcetic was there, he received

21     information from the commander of the 343rd Motorised Brigade from

22     Prijedor.  Information about what had happened that day, how many people

23     were killed.  The brigade command reported and Martic -- Marcetic

24     informed the commander of what had happened, and then later reports were

25     sent to the command of the Main Staff of the VRS.

Page 3008

 1        Q.   I will pause so that everything can be transcribed.  It doesn't

 2     mean that I'm not happy with your answer.  Are you familiar with any

 3     cases when no reports were compiled in the field?

 4        A.   Yes, there were such cases.

 5        Q.   When the reports were not correct?

 6        A.   Yes, there were such cases.

 7        Q.   At the time, May, June, July, at the beginning of the conflict,

 8     were communications interrupted?

 9        A.   Yes.  Communication lines were cut off but there were couriers,

10     and the units had to use such couriers.  Similarly my unit, because that

11     was a wider area of responsibility.  So couriers were used to communicate

12     information and to forward reports.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On page 49 today, you said that you were at this

14     collegium with General Talic, this meeting.  In the document that you

15     provided us with today, P253, is the number assigned to it -- no, that's

16     a mistake.  I'm sorry.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P249.

18        Q.   Do you remember this document that consists of two maps?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And two charts.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page number 2, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it on my screen.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.  Could we zoom in and

24     see the top part of the page.

25        Q.   You say that this was the situation after the 18th of May, 1992.

Page 3009

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This chart depicts the 1st Krajina Corps structure.  But you're

 3     not included there.

 4        A.   I wasn't a member of the 1st Krajina Corps.  I was not included

 5     there.

 6        Q.   Could we have a look at page 4 now, please.  Here, in the middle

 7     of this chart we can see that you were subordinated to

 8     Major-General Djukic; isn't that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How is it that you were present at that collegium, at that

11     meeting of the 1st Krajina Corps?

12        A.   I've explained this previously.  As commander of the logistics

13     base, I was always available to the corps commander, and he would contact

14     me by phone and tell me when there were meetings that I could be present

15     in order for me to obtain information so that my organs could react more

16     expeditiously.  This was to speed up things.

17        Q.   Very well.  So you received an invitation to attend.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That wasn't a regular thing.  You didn't have to attend unless

20     you were invited?

21        A.   It's not that I didn't have to but there was no reason.  If I was

22     invited, there was something important.

23        Q.   I meant if they don't call you.

24        A.   No, if they didn't invite me, no, it was not my duty to attend in

25     such cases.

Page 3010

 1        Q.   You were responsible for supplying the 1st Krajina Corps?

 2        A.   Not only the 1st Krajina Corps, but all the units in the area of

 3     responsibility in the territory that was depicted here a little earlier

 4     on.  There was the Military Technical Academy, there was the rocket

 5     brigade under the army's command, the communication centre, so the

 6     logistics base supplied all the units that were present in that area.

 7     The logistics base in Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   These diagrams, these charts, in fact, mention who is from Serbia

 9     and who from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  From among the people of the Serbian --

10     of Serbian ethnicity.  In terms of percentages, how many people were

11     there Serbia in the VRS?  Could you tell us?

12        A.   In terms of percentages, I couldn't say.  But, Your Honours, when

13     the VRS was established on the 18th of May, I was in Banja Luka.  Not a

14     single officer or junior officer from Serbia, Montenegro, or -- didn't

15     leave their duties in the corps command, in the rocket brigade, apart

16     from those who were due to retire.  I don't know about the percentages,

17     but not a single officer left apart from those who retired.

18        Q.   Was that the situation in lower units?

19        A.   When I'm talking about the corps, that also includes its

20     subordinate units.

21        Q.   So your testimony today is that the entire command structure of

22     brigades and battalions remained the same?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Apart from the soldiers who were performing

24     their military service, who weren't from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They

25     could go to their homes, to Macedonia, to Montenegro, to Serbia, and so

Page 3011

 1     on and so forth, but all the officers who remained on the payroll.  In my

 2     notebook, an entry was made when someone said that the Federal Republic

 3     of Yugoslavia would continue paying salaries.

 4        Q.   Were there any people from Serbia in the ABiH?

 5        A.   I really don't know.

 6        Q.   People from Sandzak, Sefer Halilovic?

 7        A.   I believe that that was the case, but I do not have any

 8     information.  I don't have any such information.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak, could you please make a short pause

10     between question and answer, and Mr. Lukic will do the same so that the

11     interpreters can follow you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You have heard of Sefer Halilovic.  That was my question.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   He was the head of the ABiH?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   He's from Serbia, Sandzak; isn't that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The soldiers from the 1st Krajina Corps were from the territory

20     that was covered by the 1st Krajina Corps; is that correct?

21        A.   The soldiers performing their military service were not only from

22     that territory but from wider areas.

23        Q.   I'm talking about people who were members of the 1st Krajina

24     Corps, about the men who were members from 1992 onwards, ordinary

25     soldiers.  Is it correct that 99 per cent of them were from the territory

Page 3012

 1     of Bosnian Krajina?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  There was an officially mobilisation carried

 3     out in that area, and all those fit for military service, they'd already

 4     been given war-time assignments.  They had to respond to the mobilisation

 5     and go to their units.  That was the case in my logistics base.

 6     Disciplinary measures, judicial measures were taken against those who

 7     failed to respond to the call-up.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that anyone who responded to the

 9     mobilisation would be assigned to a unit and issued with a weapon and a

10     uniform?

11        A.   Yes.  There was a training, but the soldier couldn't immediately

12     receive a weapon without training.  First it was necessary to be trained

13     and then weapons would be issued.  They would be given a uniform, yes,

14     but weapons only having completed the training.

15        Q.   Members of the reserve force immediately received weapons and

16     uniforms because they had already received training.

17        A.   Yes.  But there were no more reserves after the mobilisation.

18     There were no more reservists apart from the officers and soldiers

19     performing their military service, but they would have been members of

20     those units.  There was only an age difference.

21        Q.   You would also agree with me that members of the Muslim and

22     Croatian ethnic groups did not largely respond to the mobilisation?

23        A.   Yes.  But there were also threats that were issued.  I have a

24     document here, too, Your Honours, where it says that the Crisis Staff

25     requested that members of the Croatian and Muslim ethnicity be removed

Page 3013

 1     from Serbian units because they were not trusted.  I do have such a

 2     document.

 3        Q.   Just a minute.  I do apologise.  When you speak about the

 4     mobilisation, are we talking about September 1991?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At the time were any threats issued or did people not respond,

 7     the Muslims and the Croats, because they didn't want to go to war in

 8     Croatia?

 9        A.   There were such cases in my unit that had about two and a half

10     thousand men.  I think there were several who did not respond.  I don't

11     know why.  Was it because it was a matter of logistics or not?  But

12     politics was involved, Your Honours.  And men did go to Croatia to fight

13     in the war and to border areas in the direction of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so

14     there were political problems with regard to this matter.  But I can't

15     really go into details.

16        Q.   On the 15th of January, 2003 in the Brdjanin case, you said, line

17     11 to line 14, that the Bosniaks did not respond to the mobilisation to

18     join war-time, or, rather, combat units that were supposed to go to

19     Croatia.  Because of that, the Bosniaks were not trusted.  Would you

20     stand by what you stated there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Similarly, at page 12928 in the same case, you said all the

23     mobilised units were mobilised in accordance with the law.  They received

24     weapons from war depots.  That's how it was translated.  Would you stand

25     by that testimony?

Page 3014

 1        A.   Your Honours, in accordance with instructions from the Assembly

 2     of Yugoslavia from 1990 to 1991, Territorial Defence units had to be

 3     disbanded and their weapons had to be returned to JNA depots, or, rather,

 4     to logistics bases.

 5        Q.   We will deal with that later, but I'm asking you about the units

 6     mobilised in 1991 and the units mobilised at the beginning of 1992.  Were

 7     they legally mobilised at the time in accordance with the law?

 8        A.   In my opinion, yes.

 9        Q.   And at the time were they issued with weapons in a lawful manner?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now tell us which military depots for

12     weapons and equipment remained in the territory of Republika Srpska and

13     which remained in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Do you know

14     anything about that?

15        A.   I can speak about the logistics base in Banja Luka, and

16     everything remained in the territory of Republika Srpska in one depot

17     there.  The Sarajevo base, Sarajevo Logistics Base, had a depot in the

18     area of Han Pijesak.  In some cases, equipment was left there.  In

19     others, that wasn't the case.  But in the logistics base in Banja Luka it

20     was handed over to Republika Srpska to the VRS.

21        Q.   But you don't have information for the area covered by the ABiH?

22        A.   No, I have no information.  I wasn't a member of that formation.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the Muslims joined the police to a

24     larger extent, and this is how they obtained weapons?

25        A.   No.  I am not aware of that.  I'm not aware of them joining the

Page 3015

 1     police force.  I don't think that's -- well, in fact, that information

 2     wasn't made public.  I know nothing about that.  So I was a bit surprised

 3     by this question.  I never heard of anything of the sort.

 4        Q.   If you say you don't know, you don't know.

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   In Prijedor municipality, the head of the Territorial Defence was

 7     Mr. Mundjinen [phoen].  Did you know that?  Did you co-operate with him?

 8        A.   I did not co-operate with him.  I heard of him.  I did not

 9     co-operate with him.  There was no need for him to co-operate with me or

10     vice versa.  I never met up with him.  Or at least I don't remember that

11     I -- I ever saw him.  I heard of him, but that's all.  The name does ring

12     a bell.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  On page 12951 also in the Brdjanin case, on

14     the 15th of January, 2003, you testified about volunteer units and you

15     said they were connected to the respective parties and that they carried

16     out party tasks.  Would you say the same today?

17        A.   Yes.  Voluntary units were paramilitary units which were set up

18     by the respective parties as well as the regional staffs.  I know about

19     Bosnian Krajina but that applied to the entire Republic of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's how they were set up and they were armed by

21     the army.  Just to illustrate that, sir, in 1992, in the month of

22     February - and I have that document which says that the Serbian

23     Democratic Party distributed 17.000 pieces of weaponry to the Serbian

24     people and the JNA distributed 56.000 pieces of infantry weapons to the

25     Serbian people.  I have that document.  I've not got it on me.

Page 3016

 1        Q.   What time are we referring to?

 2        A.   I'm talking about 1992.  Perhaps January, February of that year.

 3     I have that official document.  It exists.

 4        Q.   We'll come to that document.  You had a lengthy discussion about

 5     that document with Mr. Ackerman, a document, and I'll come to that.

 6        A.   Can you show it to me?

 7        Q.   We'll come to that.  Is it correct paramilitary formations were

 8     also set up in the territory which is currently the Federation of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and were people armed there?  Which paramilitary

10     formations were set up by the SDA?

11        A.   I know that they were organised also in that area, and those

12     units were called units for the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina because the

13     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was set up for the entire Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and they clashed with the army -- Serbian army of the

15     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Departments were set up in

16     municipalities as well as companies and squads.  Those formations were

17     being set up in order to defend the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

18     the Army of Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Those units were set up in 1991; right?  And they were known as

20     the Patriotic League, the Green Berets, and so on and so forth.  Would

21     you agree with me that they were not organised in order to fight the VRS

22     but the JNA?

23        A.   No, Your Honours.  On the 29th of February and the 1st of March,

24     1991, we had a referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  64 per cent of the

25     population were in favour of the independent Republic of

Page 3017

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The European community recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina

 2     as a state.  After that --

 3        Q.   Mr. Selak --

 4        A.   Please.

 5        Q.   When it comes to legality, do you know, according to the

 6     then-valid constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina what percentage would have

 7     made referendum legal?  How much did you study the constitutional law at

 8     the time?

 9        A.   I did not study it at all.

10        Q.   We will not go that way.  I'm not asking you that.  Please look

11     at me and answer my questions, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, take a pause between question and

13     answer.

14             Mr. Selak, you're not here to debate with Mr. Lukic.  You're here

15     to answer his questions.  If something very important might have been

16     missing, you'll have an opportunity or the Prosecution will ask you

17     further questions about that.  Please focus your answers on what

18     Mr. Lukic asks you and not what you think he should have asked for.  He

19     is putting the questions to you.  You give the answers.  Could you please

20     abide by that.

21             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you familiar with the fact that units were

24     organised under the name of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League in

25     1991?

Page 3018

 1        A.   I'm not aware of the exact date.  However, towards the end of

 2     1991 I believe that they existed because they were being prepared for the

 3     defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   At the time, the only legitimate armed force in the territory of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina was the JNA; right?

 6        A.   No, it's not correct.

 7        Q.   Who was legitimate then?

 8        A.   When Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared as an independent state, the

 9     JNA had to withdrew from Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Hold on.  Did the JNA withdraw -- withdrew in 1991?

11        A.   No, they didn't.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's get things calmed down.

13             In your first answer, Mr. Selak, you already did not what I asked

14     you to do.  You were asked whether you're familiar with the fact that

15     units were organised under certain names.  Apparently, I do understand

16     from your answer, that you were aware but you started adding what their

17     job was.  You were not asked about that.

18             Then in one of the answers which followed, you said:

19             "When Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared as an independent state,

20     the JNA had to withdraw."

21             What we'd like to know is, if you refer to such a point in time,

22     that you give us that point in time.

23             Apart from that, Mr. Lukic, I invited Mr. Selak not to consider

24     your exchange as a conversation or a debate but as questions and answers,

25     and then preferably about facts.  Legitimate forces, et cetera, and that

Page 3019

 1     is known in this Tribunal, have raised eternal discussions on what was

 2     legitimate or not.  And, finally, that is a legal matter.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have not completed

 6     my answer.  Your Honours, the JNA did not withdraw from

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The only exception being the conscripts who were

 8     serving their compulsory army service and who hailed from Serbia or

 9     Macedonia.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked whether the JNA withdrew in 1991.

11     Your answer was no, they didn't.  So you had answered that question.  And

12     if Mr. Lukic wants to know any further details, then he'll ask for it.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know what the numerical strength of the

16     Patriotic League and the Green Berets was in 1991?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Which political parties advocated and instructed the population

19     of Bosnia-Herzegovina not to respond to the JNA call-ups?

20        A.   There were many parties.  I can't give you their names.  I can't

21     answer your question because I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, is there a dispute about the

23     positions of the political parties in relation to the JNA call-ups?

24             MR. GROOME:  No dispute Your Honour.  And the Prosecution is

25     always welcome to consider any facts that the Defence might propose that

Page 3020

 1     we would agree to.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I can challenge credibility of the witness by this,

 4     because on the transcript, page 13214, from 2nd January 2003, he

 5     explicitly stated --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, then you should at least -- if you want

 7     the Chamber to understand this --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then I think you should provide the Chamber with

10     the relevant information.  2003, transcript page.  That's in another

11     case.  You refer to another -- [Overlapping speakers]

12             MR. LUKIC:  Brdjanin case.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  Is that in evidence at this

14     moment for us if you ...

15             MR. LUKIC:  I will ask the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.

17             Please proceed.  Then at this moment --

18             Yes, you may proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You answered a question by saying Alija Izetbegovic suggested

21     that Bosniaks should not respond to such call-ups.  And you said that you

22     were familiar with that statement.  Can you remember that?

23        A.   No, Your Honours.  I can't remember the words.  It was only -- it

24     was some nine or ten years ago.  Politics are politics.  I'm sure that

25     Alija Izetbegovic did advocate that political options and solutions, but

Page 3021

 1     I can't remember the data -- the details.  I'm getting on, you know, so I

 2     can't answer in the affirmative.  I believe that something like that was

 3     done but -- and I signed that, but I can't remember.

 4        Q.   You didn't sign anything.  You said it under oath.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Do you know or do you not know whether

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic and his political party were in favour of following the

 7     call-ups or that they advised persons not to respond to such call-ups?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, Your Honours.  Bosnia

 9     and Herzegovina had already been divided.  There were areas with the

10     executive power of the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11     I know that there were call-ups for that area.  But he didn't have any

12     influence on the mobilisation in the territory of the VRS.  He could not

13     influence that region.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we talking about 1991?

15             MR. LUKIC:  1991, 1992.  There is --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  1991 there is --

17             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

18             THE WITNESS:  1992.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You are talking about 1992.  Mr. Lukic has not

20     limited his questions, and even reference was made earlier to 1991, I

21     think.  What was the position, to your knowledge --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the position of Mr. Izetbegovic and his

24     party, whether you should respond positively to call-ups for the JNA

25     even before the Republika Srpska did exist?

Page 3022

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure.  I did

 2     not receive any official information from politicians.  I was

 3     subordinated to the command of the JNA.  We did not receive that kind of

 4     information or at least not us in Banja Luka.  I did not listen to

 5     Radio Sarajevo which broadcast such information.  I'm sure that such

 6     things existed, that there was a lot of propaganda going on, but I never

 7     heard any such propaganda messages, so I cannot answer in the

 8     affirmative.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you say you did not receive any official

10     information.  As a matter of fact, you explained that you had no

11     information at all.  Nevertheless, your answer to the question in 2003,

12     if rightly quoted by Mr. Lukic, suggests that you knew the position of

13     Mr. Izetbegovic by whatever sources.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with Izetbegovic's

15     position.  He wanted a unified Bosnia-Herzegovina and that is a fact,

16     Your Honours.  I was aware of that and I was in favour of that myself.

17     He wanted that republic to be a -- set up of all the three constituent

18     peoples, the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims, i.e., the Bosniaks, and

19     he advocated that option all the time, until the day he died.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer is not focussing on the call-ups as you

21     were asked to do.

22             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Is this a good time?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is a good time for a break as well.  We take

25     a break and resume at a quarter to 2.00.

Page 3023

 1             But, first, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak, listen carefully to the questions that

 9     Mr. Lukic will put to you and answer them as briefly as possible.

10             Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Selak, we have kept raising new issues.  You mentioned

13     Mr. Izetbegovic and you said that he was in favour of a united

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and that he fought for that concept until the very end

15     of his life.  Is it also true that he also fought for a

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina outside of Yugoslavia and without the JNA?

17        A.   I know that he participated in the negotiations when Yugoslavia

18     was breaking apart, unfortunately.  I was a member of that Yugoslav

19     People's Army as a Yugoslav.  However, politics are politics.  I didn't

20     want to get involved, I don't know any details, and I don't want to

21     answer your question by saying something that I'm not positive about and

22     I don't have accurate information about.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On the 4th of April, 1992, Alija Izetbegovic

24     proclaimed a state of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

25        A.   I'm not sure of the date, but I know that a state of war was

Page 3024

 1     indeed proclaimed, but I don't know when.

 2        Q.   Who was that aimed against, in your view?

 3        A.   In my view, against all those who were against Bosnia-Herzegovina

 4     as a state of all of its citizens.

 5        Q.   So that means against 99 per cent of the Serbs?

 6        A.   The Serbian Democratic Party, sir, officially proclaimed

 7     Republika Srpska.  I have documents in which it says that they wanted to

 8     be united with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Alija Izetbegovic was

 9     against that.

10        Q.   Can we then conclude that Alija Izetbegovic proclaimed a state of

11     war and thus proclaimed that he would start waging a war against the

12     Serbian people in Yugoslavia?

13        A.   That was also done by Mr. Karadzic.  I have that document as

14     well.  He also proclaimed a state of war in his turn.

15        Q.   Is it true that a state of war in Republika Srpska was proclaimed

16     only in the second half of 1995?

17        A.   I am not aware of the date, but I know that it was, indeed,

18     proclaimed.  I'm not sure of the date.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think it would be in the interest of

20     the work of this Chamber to -- that you focus primarily on matters of

21     factual knowledge of this witness.  And the last series of questions have

22     demonstrated, to some extent I would say, and it might be that you want

23     to establish that, that this witness has his own firm political opinions

24     on certain matters.  And if that's what you want to emphasise, then that

25     message has been received.

Page 3025

 1             And Judge Moloto may want to put a question or two.  Give any

 2     comment.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you are at page 83, line 6, as saying

 4     in the second half of 1995.  Did you want to say 1995?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, for SDS, for Republika Srpska.

 6     Time of war was declared only in 1995, second part, and only on a part of

 7     the territory.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.  And again, focus on

10     factual knowledge --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather than being at risk to enter into a debate.

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you have your statement before you in B/C/S?

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be provided with a

16     statement.  I can't provide him with mine because I've underlined things

17     in it.  Maybe the Prosecutor can provide his statement to the witness.

18             MR. GROOME:  I brought a clean copy to court, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Could it be provided to the witness.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You do recognise your statement, don't you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Let's advance to paragraph 44, please.

25             You say at the beginning:

Page 3026

 1             "The other officers told me that Talic usually attended the

 2     meetings of the regional Crisis Staff."

 3             My question is this:  You yourself never attended any of those

 4     meetings with General Talic; right?

 5        A.   No.  I wasn't.  But his officers stated --

 6        Q.   Who was it who told you that?

 7        A.   My colleagues.  I can't tell you exactly who -- please.  The

 8     corps command was the corps command, the bases [as interpreted] had its

 9     office one floor above him.  That was our regular communication.

10        Q.   Can you give us the name and the family name of the person who

11     told you or not?

12        A.   I can't.  There were several of them.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on.

14        A.   Your Honours, when I asked for General Talic, several times I was

15     told that he was at a meeting of the Crisis Staff.  This was from the

16     corps command, information from the corps command, so I don't know who

17     told me about that.  Ten years have passed since then.  Over ten years.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to justify that you don't know

19     anymore.  Just listen carefully to the questions, answer them, tell us

20     what you know, tell us what you do not know anymore.

21             And, Mr. Lukic, calmness would certainly assist in obtaining the

22     best evidence.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] At the time, was there a republican Crisis

25     Staff?

Page 3027

 1        A.   No.  Not as far as I know.

 2        Q.   Very well.

 3        A.   Only in the regions.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 45, it's at the beginning of the paragraph, it says:

 5             "I know that from the end of 1991 training was provided for

 6     paramilitary formations in Manjaca.  Paramilitary formations can be

 7     considered to be all men who are armed but are not part of the army or

 8     the MUP."

 9             At the time in 1991, the end of 1991, were there still

10     Territorial Defence units in existence?

11        A.   The Territorial Defence units were disbanded in 1991, as early of

12     1991, throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The weapons were

13     supposed to be returned to the warehouses, but this was not all

14     completed.

15        Q.   Could you tell us when these Territorial Defence units were

16     disbanded, approximately, in 1991?

17        A.   It was at the beginning of 1991.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The army never issued orders of any kind to the

19     paramilitary units.  That's what you stated in the Tadic case.  Do you

20     stand by that today?

21        A.   It didn't issue them with any orders, but later in the documents

22     even the Chief of the Main Staff said that volunteer units should be

23     established as soon as possible and they should be armed and even that

24     JNA officers should become part of such units.  I have such a document.

25        Q.   Who is the chief and of which Main Staff?

Page 3028

 1        A.   Of the JNA, the General Staff.

 2        Q.   In Belgrade?

 3        A.   Yes, in Belgrade.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, if you want to consult, do it at a low

 5     voice and not from a distance with a loud voice.

 6             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Let's now have a look at paragraph 48 where you

 9     speak about to whom you were subordinated, about the structure you were a

10     part of.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You say:

13             "As a commander of the logistics base, I wasn't subordinated to

14     General Uzelac but to the command of the 1st Army in Belgrade."

15             Were you subordinated to the 1st Army, to the 5th Army, to the

16     2nd Army, or to the SSNO?

17        A.   No.  I was subordinated to the 1st Army District in Belgrade.

18     And, later, when the 2nd Military District was established in Sarajevo, I

19     was subordinated to that district.  Never to the 5th.  The bases were

20     under the direct command of the army, not of the corps.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We'll move on, as I'm not really an expert when it comes to your

Page 3029

 1     channels of commanding and reporting.  Isn't it true that your area, the

 2     5th Corps and that area, was under the 5th Military District?

 3        A.   No, that was never the case.

 4        Q.   The 5th Corps, the 5th Banja Luka Corps wasn't part of the

 5     5th Army?

 6        A.   No, it was part of the 7th Army District and later of the 2nd

 7     one.  It was never part of the 5th Military District.  That district was

 8     in Zagreb, so it was never under its command.

 9        Q.   Very well.  So were you subordinated to the 1st Military District

10     or the Federal Secretariat for National Defence?

11        A.   The bases were all under the command of the Military Districts.

12     For one period of time I was under the command of the 1st Military

13     Command, and then under the 2nd Military Command when it was established

14     in Sarajevo under the command of General --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name the

16     witness mentioned.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Very well.  We will move onto paragraph 53 now.  You say:

19             "In the middle of July 1992 Talic requested a meeting with me in

20     order to inform me that I was not allowed to leave Banja Luka."

21             We can't ask General Talic about this, but I would like you to

22     tell me who was present at that conversation?

23        A.   I think it was Colonel Ninkovic.  I think it was

24     Colonel Ninkovic.  Don't hold me to that, though.  But I think that was

25     the case.  He is in Banja Luka now.  You can contact him.

Page 3030

 1        Q.   Did you leave Banja Luka in spite of this?

 2        A.   Yes.  In 1995 when my wife fell ill, I asked General Mladic to

 3     allow me to leave and to go to Belgrade to the Military Medical Academy

 4     in an ambulance.

 5        Q.   Was this made possible for you?

 6        A.   I phoned General Djukic, he put me through to General Mladic, and

 7     he said that he ordered Colonel Marjanovic to take me to Belgrade.

 8     Colonel Marjanovic didn't want to take me there, so I paid two Serbs from

 9     Banja Luka 2.800 German marks to take me to Belgrade.

10        Q.   You stayed there for 13 days; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, for about 12 or 13 days, I'm not sure.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could -- Mr. Lukic, could you take care that

13     consultations in the back are not disturbing the continuation of the

14     examination of the witness.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Where did you go after that 13-day period, Mr. Selak?

17        A.   I went to see my son in Wiesbaden, in Germany.  He is a doctor

18     and he operated on his mother there.  Unfortunately, she later died.

19        Q.   Let's now have a look at paragraph 55.  In this paragraph, you

20     say:

21             "In the middle of July 1992, I was elected to be the commander of

22     the resistance staff in Banja Luka."

23             You were referring to resistance to the Republic of Serbia; is

24     that correct?

25        A.   The resistance staff in Banja Luka to resist the organs in power

Page 3031

 1     and those who maltreated Muslims and Croats, because they were fleeing

 2     Banja Luka en masse.  And it's true that we established this body not as

 3     against Republika Srpska as such but against the events happening in

 4     Banja Luka.

 5        Q.   Who were the people with you in that group?

 6        A.   I can't answer that question for the sake of their safety.

 7             Your Honours, please allow me not to mention the names of these

 8     people.  It is for their own safety.

 9        Q.   Is there anyone who does not live --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  For -- first of all, I think there's no need to

11     stand, for Mr. Mladic.

12             Now, you'd like not to mention those names, not in public, at

13     least.  Would you mind to mention the names in private session?  Which

14     means that those persons would -- that -- the names you are telling us

15     are not broadcasted.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, allow me to say that

17     this resistance movement - I have to explain this - didn't amount to

18     resistance of any kind because we assessed the situation and the corps

19     had 100.000 people and we had between 500 and 1.000 men who were not

20     armed, so we did not -- and I can't mention any names because of their

21     safety.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak, my question was whether you would be

23     willing to give the names in private session.  Are you willing to do so?

24     That means that those participating in these proceedings --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

Page 3032

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll have to consult with my -- Mr. Groome, you

 2     would like to make any submission?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I believe before the Chamber

 4     deliberates on this, I think it might be helped by knowing what is the

 5     relevance of this.  I have a hard time understanding what the relevance

 6     is at this stage.  Perhaps there is idea of relevance, but I would

 7     appreciate knowing what it is.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps before we further consider the matter,

 9     Mr. Lukic, could you explain what the relevance is to know those -- these

10     names?

11             MR. LUKIC:  It is self-explanatory, Your Honour.  The whole

12     statement is full of explanations how there was mistrust on the Serbian

13     side toward this gentleman and Muslims in general and now we can get a

14     base for that, that mistrust.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  By receiving those names?

16             MR. LUKIC:  We would be able to further investigate what was it,

17     when it was established.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

19             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'm not sure the legal requirement of a

20     question being relevant is that it would enable further investigations.

21     I believe that would be a matter for Defence investigators to do and to

22     make some inquiry in the Banja Luka area.  I think what needs to be

23     demonstrated at this point is why is it relevant to the determination

24     that this Chamber has to make when adjudicating this indictment.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3033

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether the witness will have to answer that

 2     question is something we'll --

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether the Chamber will insist on the witness

 5     answering the question, we'll discuss that and let you know, if possible,

 6     this afternoon.  At least not any later than tomorrow morning.  We would

 7     like to pay proper attention to it.

 8             I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Lukic.  I have one or two small

 9     procedural items which I would like to briefly deal with.  Therefore, I

10     suggest that we adjourn for the day after I have dealt with those and

11     that the witness is already excused at this time.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Selak -- yes, Mr. Groome.  Any?

14             MR. GROOME:  It has to do with the scheduling for the witness,

15     Your Honour.  Tomorrow there is a videolink scheduled and Mr. Lukic

16     informs that he thinks that he will take the entire day for the

17     cross-examination.  Can I ask that Mr. Selak be allowed to remain on

18     standby in his hotel room?  I think, if needed, we can get him here in

19     about 20 minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Selak, we'll resume your examination

21     either tomorrow, but not right away at 9.30 in the morning, or perhaps

22     even the day after tomorrow.  Therefore, as Mr. Groome asked, you do not

23     have to come to the Tribunal in the morning but you should remain standby

24     so as to be able to start immediately once we have dealt with another

25     witness who will give his testimony through videolink.  Is that clear?

Page 3034

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And then I also would like to instruct you that you

 3     should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your

 4     testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or testimony

 5     still to be given.

 6             If you have understood this message, then you may now follow the

 7     usher.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Two brief matters.

12             First, and I'm primarily addressing the Defence, on the 22nd and

13     the 23rd of August, the Defence objected to the admission of MFIs P80 and

14     P89, which had been tendered by the Prosecution as associated exhibits

15     through 92 ter Witness van Lynden.  The Defence submitted in court that

16     it would make written submissions in relation to these MFIs.  That can be

17     found on transcript pages 1472 to 1473 and 1477 to 1479.  On the 21st of

18     September, the Defence informed the Chamber through an informal

19     communication that it no longer intended to submit a filing in relation

20     to the aforementioned MFIs.

21             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber understands the Defence objections to MFIs

22     P80 and P89 to be withdrawn.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, therefore, P80 and P89 are admitted into

25     evidence.

Page 3035

 1             One last matter, I'm addressing you, Mr. Groome.  The Chamber

 2     suggests to you that you already number the paragraphs of witness

 3     statements when you attach them to your 92 ter motions, and not only at a

 4     later stage because we might work on hard copies of it, make our notes on

 5     it, and then have to number them at a later stage ourselves.  I think it

 6     would be best to just briefly mention that in half a sentence in a 92 ter

 7     motion so that we always know whether the numbering of the paragraphs has

 8     been added at that moment in time or whether the paragraphs were already

 9     numbered at an earlier stage.

10             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  We'll do that from this point

11     forward.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

13             We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday,

14     the 26th of September, in this same courtroom, I.

15                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

17                           September, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.