1 Friday, 5 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The Chamber is not
10 informed about any preliminaries. Therefore could the witness be
11 escorted into the courtroom.
12 Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. While the witness is
14 coming in, I just wanted to let the Chamber know that in respect of
15 65 ter 9389, this is --
16 JUDGE ORIE: This is -- yes, is that P306.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it's P2 -- P296. This is the -- the
18 letter with the reply.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was able to locate General Mladic's letter to
21 General Nambiar. I provided that to the Defence. They have a copy of
22 it. What I propose to do, Mr. President, is to tender that document
23 separately because this 9389 was an associated exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: But I think I would like to tender that for the
1 completion of the record and for the Chamber's benefit, if I may.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that we have the complete information, yes.
3 Has it been uploaded already?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: It has been uploaded and we've assigned it
5 65 ter number 28451, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll deal with it in -- later today.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Abdel-Razek.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Mr. Abdel-Razek, I would like to
11 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have
12 given at the beginning of your testimony.
13 WITNESS: HUSEIN ALY ABDEL-RAZEK [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic will now continue his
17 Mr. Petrusic.
18 And before we start, Mr. Abdel-Razek, may I urge you to focus
19 your answers very much and very precisely to the question that is put to
20 you. If we need more background information about the matters you are
21 telling us about, Mr. Petrusic will ask you for it.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]
25 Q. [Interpretation] General, sir, yesterday you said that UNPROFOR
1 maps were in your office with the disposition of forces of the Bosnian
2 and Serb forces. Is my understanding correct? Just tell me whether what
3 I'm saying is right or wrong.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were the artillery firing positions marked on these maps as well,
6 either of the Muslim or the Serb army? Again, just please give a yes or
7 no answer.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. During your mandate, during your mission there, was it possible
10 to tour the positions of both armies, their lines of fire, as it were?
11 A. [In English] I didn't hear the translation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You hear the translation, then --
13 THE WITNESS: I don't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: For listening to the questions, Mr. Abdel-Razek
15 should be on the English channel, or --
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that we have translation in both
18 directions now. Mr. Abdel-Razek, do you hear the question in your own
19 language, or do you hear it in English?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I prefer to listen to them in
21 Arabic. I prefer to listen to them in Arabic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then is the witness on the right channel to
23 receive the Arabic? What channel is that?
24 THE REGISTRAR: It's channel 7, and it was set.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's continue. Everything has been
1 set, Mr. Abdel-Razek, for you to receive the question in Arabic. If it
2 doesn't work, please let me know.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. General, sir, did your mission imply that you could tour the
7 positions both of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the army of the
8 Bosnian Serbs?
9 A. I did not tour these positions in persons -- in person. However,
10 I visited some Serbian positions. When Mr. Goulding visited us in the
11 sector, we also visited some artillery positions in Grbavica.
12 Q. General, sir, you've given a partial answer to my question, but I
13 ask you kindly to focus on the question itself. What about your mission
14 itself? Did it envisage that you could do that? Just tell me whether
15 this was envisaged within the terms of your mission or not.
16 A. Sir, I was the commander of the sector. There were also the
17 observers and many other units deployed. The commander of the sector did
18 not have the possibility to tour these areas freely.
19 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] ... that is not the
20 question that is put to you. The question that is put to you is that
21 whether your mission, not you as a commander, but whether those
22 subordinated to you in your mission, whether they will -- whether they
23 were able to tour the positions also on the Serb side.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. International observers
25 were present in areas facing the Serbian positions and the positions
1 belonging to the Bosnian government. However, we had 11 posts were on
2 the Serbian side and 3 posts on the government side. We used to call
3 them Baba or Lima or something like that. So these people were in charge
4 of observing, of assessing the direction of the fire, and to notify us in
5 the command. However, when one of the UN officials visited the sector, I
6 went with him and we checked on some Serbian positions, and we visited
7 one artillery post as you mentioned.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, sir, now I'd like to move on to paragraph 77 of your
10 statement. That is where you speak of mobile vehicles where mortars were
11 mounted. From time to time, they would fire shells, and that happened
12 once from an area close to your command. This is what I'd be interested
13 in. We are speaking in general terms now, in terms of principle.
14 If mortar shells were fired from these vehicles, did the other
15 side have the right to respond to this kind of artillery fire?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, this is asking for legal opinion,
17 isn't it? I will not -- you could ask the witness what his understanding
18 was of whether they were entitled to respond.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer? Everyone knew that
20 the United Nations, all the posts belonging to the United Nations, do not
21 entitle any warring factions -- I rephrase it. According to the UN,
22 warring factions could not operate in an a perimeter of 500 metres from
23 the UN posts, be it mobile posts or the fixed posts such as the
24 Tito Barracks, the airport, or the PTT building. It was forbidden for
25 anyone to get closer than 500 metres from these UN posts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. That was not the question.
2 The question was that if mortars were fired from movable vehicles,
3 whether the party who received those shells incoming, whether in your
4 view they were entitled to respond to that fire.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a military commander, I say yes,
6 they had the right to retaliate. However, they should have taken into
7 account the fact that retaliation might target some UN building, and this
8 is what happened. This is what was important for us. The vehicles
9 equipped with mortars and shelling from UN proximity, from UN buildings'
10 proximity would then jeopardise the safety of the UN buildings.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question did not include the
12 element you add that it is that it was -- that fire was -- that there was
13 fire from the proximity of UN premises or that the return fire would go
14 into that direction. The question was put in very general terms: If
15 from wherever in Sarajevo mortars were fired from these vehicles, whether
16 the party receiving that fire was entitled to return that fire. So let's
17 just do as if there was no UN even. Let's just imagine, because the UN
18 is not the issue raised by Mr. Petrusic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that the unit
20 that is targeted by the shells is entitled to retaliate. This is from a
21 military point of view. However, we are talking about a city that was
22 hosting UN posts and also a city where civilians were living. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The last part that civilians were living
24 there, that apparently is for you also a relevant factor to consider when
25 responding fire. Is that correctly understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. General, sir, these vehicles with mobile mortars, could they also
5 be found near other facilities, civilian facilities? I'm primarily
6 referring to hospitals, schools, and the like. Post offices.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you know that during your tour there shells were fired from
9 these vehicles, from the proximity of some other facilities?
10 A. Yes. And I mentioned this to Mr. Galic. Ganic and not Galic.
11 Q. Today, to the best of your recollection, General, can you tell us
12 what these locations were?
13 A. During our tour, we saw some locations close to the PTT building,
14 and the district, and the main hospital. So close to the PTT building,
15 district and main hospital. This is what I saw during my tour.
16 Q. If I understood you correctly, you are saying that from these
17 locations a mobile vehicle with a mortar mounted on it fired from there
18 and the Serbs responded by firing at these locations; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, this is what I meant. They used to fire from these
20 locations, and they used to receive retaliation firing from the Serbian
22 Q. General, sir, you mentioned your meeting with a high official of
23 the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ejub Ganic. You lodged a protest with
24 him. Am I correct in saying that?
25 A. Yes, I lodged a protest with him and with Colonel Siber. Siber.
1 Q. Did the situation change any after your protest?
2 A. Regarding the PTT building, the situation changed as of October
3 maybe. These vehicles stopped coming to the PTT building. However,
4 these vehicles continued moving and droving around and taking some posts
5 next to some humanitarian facilities such as the hospital, and we used to
6 receive too many protests in this regard, and we used to convey our
7 opinion in this relevant manner -- matter to the officials that I have
8 mentioned, and we vehemently reported that. I think the
9 Secretary-General, Mr. Goulding and Mr. Morillon saw and witnessed the
10 effect of shelling on these humanitarian facilities. They also
11 complained to the Bosnians for the location -- for the positioning of
12 some military forces next to these facilities.
13 I remember the answer from Mr. Ejub Ganic. He used to tell me,
14 Where should we go? We are fighting close to the city. I told him, You
15 have to go. You are creating lots of problems. And if I were on the
16 other side I would have retaliated to any firing, to any shelling, and
17 this is a problem. I hope that I answered your question.
18 Q. Yes, General. The concentration of weapons that you spoke of
19 yesterday during your examination, this concentration that existed in
20 Sarajevo and also these mobile vehicles, was all of that a threat to the
21 civilian population in Sarajevo itself?
22 A. Of course the presence of any military force inside residential
23 areas constitute a threat to civilians. This is natural.
24 Q. Thank you, General. General, sir, now I'd like to move on to the
25 28th -- the 29th of August, actually, and a meeting that was held in
1 Sarajevo, but before that let me ask you something: The name of
2 General Hosen, is that familiar to you?
3 A. No.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court
5 1D327, please.
6 Q. General, sir, I would like you to focus on -- actually -- all
7 right. Perhaps we won't be dealing with this document a great deal,
8 because you said that you did not know General Hosen. Do you see what it
9 says in brackets here, that General Hosen is present with two others, and
10 the Muslim delegation is represented by Mr. Cikotic and Siber. Out of
11 these two attendees, are you perhaps one of them? If you look at the
12 content of the meeting, would that perhaps jog your memory?
13 A. This is obviously a minutes of a meeting that took place. You're
14 talking about General Hosen. Hosen is not familiar to me. Maybe Husein,
15 maybe. That's my name.
16 Q. Sir, if that is correct, I'm sorry to say that I have a
17 translation of the original, and I'm really reading correctly. It says
18 "General Hosen."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, what the witness says is he at least
20 allows for the possibility that it is an error in the transcript, and
21 since the first name of this witness is Husein, that it may be a
22 reference to him. And to be quite honest, that is the first thing that
23 came to my mind as well when I read it, but ...
24 Did you attend a meeting with, on the 29th of August, 1992, a
25 kind of a meeting which we find in this minutes on the talks between the
1 representative of UNPROFOR and the representative of the armed forces of
2 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the presence of -- where -- and is
3 there any chance that you arrived late?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. Yes. I remember this
5 meeting, and I remember Mr. Siber. At the beginning, he was not very
6 friendly, at the beginning of this meeting, and he reminded me that I
7 arrived five minutes late, and I apologised to that. I do remember that
8 meeting. I told him it was out of my control, because the guide took us
9 to another location.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the witness is present at the meeting.
11 The only inconsistency still is that the minutes say that you were
12 45 minutes late, whereas the witness says he was five minutes late, but
13 let's not focus on that. Please proceed.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I really do apologise to the
15 witness for this misrepresentation, but in both versions, in Serbian and
16 in English, it says General Hosen. I suppose it's a misspelling.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That has been established by now in detail
18 over the last couple of minutes. Let's proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, if we look at what you are saying, which is somewhere in the
21 middle of the page, and if we compare it to paragraph 77 of your
22 statement, we can see that you are talking about the same subject.
23 However, a little bit above that paragraph, in the middle, it says:
24 "Three French soldiers were seriously wounded today in
1 In paragraph 78, you say that in the incident that happened in
2 the vicinity of Butmir, two French soldiers were killed.
3 What I am interested in is to hear from you were those two
4 separate isolated incidents, or was there some confusion there?
5 A. During these meetings, we used to discuss a lot of topics, and I
6 do not recall the details of every meeting right now. You are asking me
7 to remember that meeting in particular. The words are -- the font is
8 very small; I cannot read very well. But these meetings in general --
9 during these meetings, we used to discuss similar issues, including the
10 issue of the vehicles that were used for selling from the vicinity of the
11 UN building. We also discussed the casualties that we incurred as a
12 result of fighting between the two sides, and I used to encourage both
13 sides to avoid -- to avoid shelling the UN buildings and UN locations.
14 These were things that we discussed at most of the meetings that we held,
15 not just that meeting in particular.
16 Q. Very well. Very well, sir. Thank you for your answer. In
17 paragraph 74, you speak about sniping of civilian targets in Sarajevo, as
18 well as UN facilities. Now, let's leave UN facilities aside for a
19 moment, and I would like to draw your attention to civilian targets.
20 When you talk about civilian targets, did you refer -- so I withdraw my
22 When you speak about sniping of civilian targets, did you mean
23 the sniping targeting civilian population?
24 A. Yes. Yes, this is what I mean. We received reports from
25 observers, and we noticed that a lot of casualties, a lot of the people
1 wounded by the sniping, were children and women, and they were older
2 people. It is as if there was a focus on these people. And if you go
3 back to the reports that we received from the observers, you will find
4 all these details. What interested me as well is that there were areas
5 that were known to be sniping areas such as the area near the
6 Holiday Inn. There was also an area behind the PTT building where a
7 woman was killed, as I mentioned or as it was mentioned in the reports
8 during the visit of Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen to the sector.
9 So there was a lot of sniping targeting civilian populations in
10 certain areas. And in those areas, when we passed through these areas,
11 we all used to run and speed up to pass quickly through these areas.
12 Q. Sir, do you know that in certain parts on the outskirts of the
13 city of Sarajevo, the lines between the Serb and Muslim forces were only
14 about a hundred metres apart?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Would you allow for a possibility that the victims, unfortunately
17 those who were either killed or wounded, could have been hit from
18 ordinary infantry weapons?
19 A. We consider these to be sniping operations when they target
20 civilian populations. As for regular fighting and clashes between
21 forces, this is something normal in times of war. What interested us was
22 the operations targeting the civilians during their movement inside the
23 city and not at the outskirts of the city. At the outskirts of the city
24 there are very close positions, but what interested us and what pained us
25 was to notice that there was a lot of civilian casualties as a result of
1 sniping operations, and what I mean by sniping are individuals, men who
2 carry weapons. They are snipers, and they target directly civilians
3 through sniping. And you know very well what I mean by sniping. It is
4 sniping at a civilian individual crossing a certain area. This is what
5 we mean by sniping.
6 As for clashes between the two sides, this is normal in times of
7 war, and this is something that we understand.
8 Q. I understand what you're saying, sir. Thank you. From the city
9 centre of Sarajevo where a tram line runs all the way to the first Serb
10 positions, can you tell us the distance between the two?
11 JUDGE ORIE: In question direction, Mr. Petrusic? I have
12 360 degrees around, so therefore the question's -- or would you say
13 wherever on this circle would be the forces closest to the town centre?
14 Now then you have another problem, because the town centre stretches for,
15 well, let's say one kilometre or more. So from one part of the town
16 centre, closest may be one position, whereas from another part of the
17 town centre it may be another -- it may be another position. So please
18 put a question which is clear enough to get a clear answer.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the -- the part of Sarajevo town which
21 is next to the bank, and next to it is the famous historical building
22 known as Vijecnica or town hall?
23 A. My memory, sir, does not serve me well. I do not recall all
24 these details. I'm talking about things --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Petrusic, let me interrupt. I do
1 understand that you want to establish the distance between the
2 confrontation line and a certain part of the city. Now, we have -- first
3 of all, you have not told us at what point in time, because the lines
4 moved slightly now and then. I think that there is quite some
5 documentary evidence on confrontation lines, and even if it would not be
6 within a margin of 50 or 60 metres but -- but -- I think there is -- at
7 least in the binder of maps we find information about that. Why not ask
8 Mr. Vanderpuye whether he would agree that from this building to that
9 point where the map show that there was positions or choose whatever
10 position you want, the distance was not more than a certain number of
11 kilometres or metres or hundreds of metres? That is by far better than
12 to rely on distances which necessarily are at the best a guess, unless
13 the witness, of course, would have measured them in detail.
14 Mr. Petrusic -- Mr. Vanderpuye, would you be willing to look at a
15 map together with Mr. Petrusic?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. General, I would like now to move to a meeting that you had on
20 the 26th of October. And for that we need document 1D335, please.
21 You can see the participants in the meeting where you yourself
22 are present representing UNPROFOR delegation, and on behalf of delegation
23 of the Army of Republika Srpska was General Milan Gvero.
24 Was that your first meeting with Mr. Gvero?
25 A. Sir, as far as I recall, this meeting was the beginning of a
1 series of meetings for the Military Committee at the airport. This is
2 something that we suggested, myself and General Morillon -- or
3 General Morillon made that suggestion and I encouraged it. We decided to
4 meet with the high commanders, with the people in charge. Sometimes we
5 were meeting with second-rank officials and that was a waste of time. So
6 we decided that maybe if we can meet with the high commanders we could
7 reach better results. I think that was the first of a series of meetings
8 that took place at the airport and what we called the joint military
9 committee meetings.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have page 3 in
11 English and also page 3 in Serbian.
12 Q. Please look at your contribution to this meeting, sir, but when
13 you talk about freedom of movement, you were actually referring to the
14 freedom of movement of the citizens of Sarajevo. Did that also involve
15 the freedom of choice for the citizens of Sarajevo to either leave or
16 come to live in the city of Sarajevo depending on their wishes?
17 A. In this context, I meant the freedom of movement of UN personnel.
18 We were suffering a lot from the closures, from the blockades, and from
19 the -- from stopping the UN convoys and humanitarian convoys. I was
20 talking in this meeting in my capacity as UN commander. I was finding
21 lots of problems and difficulties in performing my duties because of
22 closures of roads and also because of stopping UN convoys and vehicles as
23 well as the insistence of some check-points to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question simply was whether you
25 referred to the freedom of movement of the civilian population as well.
1 The answer clearly is no. And then you start explaining why you raised
2 the matter for the UN personnel, but the question was focused on
3 UN personnel or civilian population. The answer seems to be clear you
4 were talking about UN personnel, not civilian population.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. If we look at page 6 in B/C/S and page 8, the last paragraph, in
8 English -- or, rather, the penultimate one, you can see that
9 General Gvero was asking for permission for 60.000 Serbs being held there
10 to be able to leave. Was your impression that General Morillon agreed
11 with this?
12 A. No. I did not have this impression. This is one of the requests
13 that was reiterated during our meetings with the Serbian side, but the
14 United Nations did not have a say or an answer, because this would mean
15 that the United Nations were taking part in ethnic cleansing operations.
16 Q. Sir, had information ever reached you to the effect that a large
17 number of Serb civilians were living in Sarajevo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you also receive information that their desire was to leave
20 Sarajevo and to go to a territory under the control of the
21 Army of Republika Srpska?
22 A. In smaller numbers, but the majority of the people I met wanted
23 to end the situation. They wanted to co-exist, and they did not have a
24 problem in living in Sarajevo. However, a few of them, and given the
25 deterioration of the situation in the areas where they were living, they
1 used to come to the PTT building seeking refuge and safe haven, then they
2 used to return to their neighbourhood. We did not encourage such
3 movements based on the movement of civilians based on their ethnic
5 Q. At this meeting, did you discuss the issue of demilitarisation of
6 the airport? Sorry, I meant to say demilitarisation of Sarajevo.
7 A. We discussed it. We discussed this matter, and we said -- we
8 said that clearly during this meeting, and General Morillon explained
9 that clearly he said that arms should be under control, and we will try
10 to draft a cease-fire agreement, and based on this agreement, we will
11 seek to sign it during our next meeting, and we asked all the people
12 attending this meeting to invite to the next meeting all the military
13 commanders, and I think that in the following meeting General Mladic was
15 Q. Prior to this meeting that was held on the 26th of October, had
16 the Serbian side before that meeting and at the request of UNPROFOR
17 accept the proposal on demilitarisation which involved an area about
18 1.000 metres around the airport?
19 A. I cannot remember this. What I remember is that both sides were
20 keen to achieve demilitarisation on a consensual basis; i.e., that it
21 happens at the same time and based on an agreement supervised by the
22 UNPROFOR in some areas where intensive clashes were taking place and
23 where many violations also were taking place. So demilitarisation was
24 limited to rhetorics, because the coming days proved that it was nothing
25 but rhetorics, and there was no genuine will on the ground to implement
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, in view of the limitations in time we
3 have today, I suggest that we take a little bit longer first session,
4 let's say approximately 75 minutes, that we take a little bit of a longer
5 break, that is from quarter to 11.00 to quarter past 11.00, and then have
6 another 75 minutes until the next break. If that does meet any
7 objections, then I suggest that you continue for another 17 minutes.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, when you arrived in Sarajevo, did you know that the
10 airport at the initial stage of the conflict and before the arrival of
11 UNPROFOR had been under the control of the forces of the
12 Army of Republika Srpska?
13 A. All what I know, sir, is that there was an agreement that was
14 reached according to which UNPROFOR would be in charge of protecting and
15 managing the airport, as well as ensuring operations through this airport
16 for humanitarian convoys and reliefs. When I went to Sarajevo, this is
17 the agreement that was enforced, and as I said in my testimony yesterday,
18 Mr. Goulding told me that the activities in the airport were suspended
19 for security reasons, but it was about to resume its activity and to
20 re-open soon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, again you were asked whether you
22 knew that the airport was under the control of the Republika Srpska
23 forces before. You told us what you know, but that is not what was there
24 before. So, therefore, if you had said, No, I don't know. I only know
25 what I found when I arrived, that would have done and that would be it.
1 You see the point?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. Before arriving to
3 Sarajevo, I did not know under whose control was the airport placed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That would be the direct and very simple answer to a
5 clear question.
6 Mr. Petrusic.
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Apart from UNPROFOR members, was any party participating in this
9 armed conflict, or civilians for that matter, allowed to move on the
10 airport premises, including the runways? Was anyone else allowed access
11 to these facilities?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, in fact or under the agreement? What
13 are you referring to?
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am referring to the agreement as
15 well as the factual situation in the field. I was interested in whether
16 the witness has any direct knowledge about that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should ask two questions, one under the
18 agreement and one whether that was respected or not, because it's unclear
19 the way you put it.
20 Could you tell us whether under the agreement whether any party
21 to the armed conflict or civilians were allowed to move on the airport
22 premises, including runways, under the agreement?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The agreement, sir, was very clear,
24 according to me, the airport is under the supervision of UNPROFOR.
25 UNPROFOR would manage technically the airport for humanitarian purposes,
1 relief purposes, as well as receiving the delegations of peacekeeping
2 missions, as well as facilitating the movement of Bosnian officials to
3 attend peace negotiations outside Sarajevo.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Again I urge you to -- not to say what the agreement
5 was for but whether under the agreement or in the agreement anything is
6 found which prohibits the warring parties or civilians to move on the
7 premises of the airport.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was prohibited for
9 civilians to use the airport or to move around and inside the airport
10 because it was under the protection of the United Nations.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And for the armed forces of the two parties?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one was allowed to be present on
13 in the runways or in the airport facilities. We only had liaison
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, now about the facts, I take it. I
16 leave it in your hands.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. If no one was allowed there, did you have information that there
19 was movement nonetheless by civilians as well as uniformed personnel on
20 the runways and inside the airport itself?
21 A. Sorry, sir. I did not get your question. UNPROFOR forces were
22 present there. Airport is under our mission. We used to go there to
23 unload the planes with loads of relief, et cetera.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, the question is: Despite that it was
25 prohibited, did it happen or did you receive information that civilians
1 would be on the runways or inside the airport? That's the first part of
2 the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Your Honour. I would like
4 to clarify this issue. No civilian was allowed to be present inside the
5 airport except the liaison officers. However, the technical management
6 and administration of the airport was at the hands of the UNPROFOR. So
7 the civilians who were there were working for UNPROFOR, but not civilians
8 who were residents of Bosnia.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, the question of Mr. Petrusic hints
10 at the possibility that civilians were illegally present on the runways
11 or in the airport premises. Did you ever receive information about
12 civilians without permission being there?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened when some civilians
14 from Butmir started to cross through the runways inside the city. This
15 is the single incident where it happened. And we warned against what
16 happened, and there are relevant reports about this incident. However,
17 some civilians, and they know it, I don't mean it by saying civilians
18 from Bosnia, but civilians coming from Zagreb or other areas, because
19 these civilians were engaged in negotiations with the relevant parties.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Were there persons in uniform who also used the runways or other
23 airport facilities illegally? And I have in mind such persons who were
24 not allowed presence there legally.
25 A. What do you mean, people in uniform? I would like to know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Petrusic hints at persons in military
2 uniforms, Mr. Petrusic, illegally moving on the runways or in the airport
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is the question, all I
5 remember is that there were civilians that used to cross the airport, and
6 that was one of the issues discussed with the Bosnian side and with
7 General Galic. And General Galic used to assure us that they were
8 wearing military uniform, but our sources told us that they were
9 civilians wearing civilian clothing. This is what happened regarding the
10 movement of individuals on the runway, individuals specifically from
11 Butmir to the city.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Very well, General. Let us move on to another topic, then, which
14 you discuss in paragraphs 28 and 58 of your statement. It has to do with
15 General Mladic.
16 During your testimony this morning, you said you saw him for the
17 first time after the 26th of October in 1992; is that correct?
18 A. I was talking about General Gvero and not General Mladic. I've
19 met General Mladic before that date, and I remember that there was a
20 meeting with Mr. Karadzic. He attended that meeting, and I was with
21 Mr. Morillon. But what I was mentioning this morning is that I met
22 General Gvero after that date, and he was the head of the delegation, the
23 Serbian -- Serbian Bosnian delegation in the joint negotiations and
25 Q. When you refer to that meeting of yours, was that the meeting
1 where in addition to General Morillon and yourself, there was also
2 Mr. Owen who was present?
3 A. No, sir. There was another meeting when Mr. Morillon decided to
4 have a -- a headquarters in Sarajevo Sector. We went to Ilidza and we
5 went on a reke mission in Kiseljak, and we chose Kiseljak to be the
6 headquarters in Bosna -- Bosnia, and of course that was in co-ordination
7 with the high commanders. This is when we went and met with Mr. Karadzic
8 and with General Mladic. And I think I have given a picture of that
9 meeting to Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 Q. During your mandate, can you tell us perhaps how many times you
11 met with General Mladic?
12 A. I think it was around four to five times.
13 Q. Was it always on such occasions where Republika Srpska
14 delegations were present comprising civilians and military personnel?
15 A. On some of these occasions, yes, such as the meeting that I was
16 referring to that was attended by Mr. Owen. There were civilians and
17 military personnel representing Republika Srpska, and there was
18 Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Lukic, and Dr. Koljevic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock. I suggest
20 that we take a break of half an hour now, a little bit of a longer break.
21 But first, Mr. Abdel-Razek, would you please follow the usher. We would
22 like to see you back in half an hour.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, the estimate you gave yesterday is
25 still valid?
1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I believe so.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That means some time would be left for
3 Mr. Vanderpuye to re-examine the witness. We take a break, and we resume
4 at quarter past 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
6 --- Upon commencing at 11.16 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
8 Mr. Vanderpuye, as matters stand now, how much time you think
9 you'd need for re-examination so that Mr. Petrusic could consider to what
10 extent he can accommodate you.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I think not
12 more than five or ten minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Five or ten minutes, Mr. Petrusic. Because there's
14 another reason why the Chamber very much would like to conclude the
15 testimony of this witness today. The Arabic interpreters are not
16 available next week. They're only available on the 18th of October,
17 which is a non-sitting week, just -- yes, after the 18th of October. So
18 that means that we could not continue until early November.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Abdel-Razek.
21 Mr. Petrusic, please continue.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. General, sir, following the London Conference, which took place
24 in September 1992, as you say, you had a meeting with President Karadzic,
25 who flatly refused your request that artillery be placed under UN
1 control. Further below in paragraph 28, you say that he could not have
2 made that decision without Mladic's approval.
3 My first question is this: Did you know that President Karadzic
4 was also the supreme commander of the armed forces of Republika Srpska?
5 A. I didn't know his title. I knew that he was the head of the SDS,
6 and this is how I was dealing with him. This is the title that we knew
7 at the United Nations. However, his presidential title, this is
8 something that I was not aware of. It was not in the correspondence of
9 the United Nations.
10 Q. If Radovan Karadzic was the supreme commander, and he indeed was,
11 I believe that is not in dispute, would you agree with me then that
12 General Mladic, as the commander of the armed forces of Republika Srpska,
13 was his subordinate?
14 A. Yes, I understand that, and I also understand that the military
15 decisions must be taken in consultation with the military advisors, with
16 the military leaders in any country, because the political leader, when
17 he takes a decision related to military issues, he must consult with his
18 assistants, with his -- with the people working with him. That's normal.
19 Q. Did know that Radovan Karadzic, as the supreme commander of the
20 armed forces, had his ministry of the military, which was headed by a
21 general, a military man whom Mr. Karadzic could consult on military
23 A. I have no objection to that. I understand that completely.
24 Q. At the aforementioned meeting when Karadzic flatly refused to
25 make such decision, there was no one else in attendance save for yourself
1 and Mr. Karadzic, of course -- or let me put it this way: Was there
2 anyone from the top brass of the armed forces of Republika Srpska, anyone
3 from the Main Staff?
4 A. As far as I recall, General Mladic was not present -- present at
5 that meeting. I hope I remember well, and I think that Mr. Krajisnik was
6 present, but he was in an official capacity with Mr. Karadzic.
7 Q. So you have no tangible evidence save for your opinion or
8 presumption that such decision was approved by General Mladic?
9 A. Sir, I said in my first statement that it was my personal
10 impression, and if you may allow me to clarify this. In the military
11 statements made by Mr. Karadzic following the London Conference and all
12 the correspondence between Goulding and Mr. Nambiar and everything I
13 learned from Mr. Nambiar when I first met with him, I understood that
14 Mr. Karadzic committed to gathering the weapons and putting them under
15 the UN control. Furthermore, he also agreed to withdraw from certain
16 areas, sensitive areas, in order to reduce the tension and reduce the
17 escalation in the situation. This is why when I met him a second time
18 and he told me something contrary to what I already heard --
19 Q. General, excuse me for interrupting. You have expanded on that
20 in your statement as well as in your previous answer. I'm content with
21 that. Therefore, we could move on. I wanted to apologise once again for
22 having interrupted you. Let us move on.
23 Did you personally at those meetings you attended with
24 General Mladic express or table certain problems regarding Sarajevo and,
25 if so, can you tell us when those meetings took place and which
1 delegations were present?
2 A. I never mentioned meeting General Mladic personally, and we
3 discussed specific issues. Most of my meetings took place with
4 Mr. Galic, but when the UN delegation met Mr. Karadzic, usually
5 Mr. Mladic was present at most of these meetings. The only meeting that
6 took place between myself -- or the only discussions that took place were
7 friendly discussions mainly on the occasion of Christmas. We talked
8 about general things, and I think that he asked me at the time to go back
9 and tell the Egyptian authorities to send a military attache to this
10 Republika Srpska, and I told him that I was not authorised to do that.
11 So it was a friendly conversation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Abdel-Razek, Mr. Petrusic is referring to all
13 the meetings you had where General Mladic was present. Did you raise any
14 problems during such meetings, and do you remember at what meeting you
15 raised what problem?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the meetings of the joint
17 military commission at the airport, I spoke in my capacity as UN
18 commander in Sarajevo. I raised the problems. He was there, and he
19 agreed on the signing of the cease-fire agreement which was supposed to
20 take place during that meeting, but this did not take place, did not
21 happen. During that meeting, everyone was raising the problems he was
22 facing, and I also raised the problems we were facing in the
23 Sarajevo Sector.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you briefly list, not explain but just list
25 the problems you raised.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problems I raised were the
2 following: Continuous shelling; the blockade of UN convoys and of
3 humanitarian convoys; I also mentioned the problems we were facing with
4 the Presidency side when it comes to humanitarian matters. We were
5 required to ensure the provision of fuel, to provide generators for the
6 hospitals, et cetera. I was mentioning and raising all these problems in
7 such meetings.
8 There was also another important topic which was the
9 disappearance of the three civilian drivers who were evacuating the
10 students who were stuck in Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question. From this list, do I
12 understand that you did not raise any sniping problems?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned shelling. When I say
14 "shelling," I meant also -- it also comprises sniping and any other
15 military activity targeting civilians.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for 1D343 which
18 is relating to this topic. I have to tell you that we have a draft
19 translation into English which was done by somebody from our office;
20 hence this document could only be marked for identification, and we will
21 be tendering it as such.
22 Q. General, in the introduction of this document issued by
23 Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic on the 11th of November, 1992, it reads:
24 "On the basis of an agreement on the unconditional cessation of
25 hostilities in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina," and the agreement in
1 question had to do with both Serb and Muslim forces.
2 It is ordered to implement the following conduct, and then on
3 page 2 in item 2 of the English version we see that the "kag" acronym
4 should stand for "corps artillery group" and that such firing cannot be
5 executed without the approval of the commander of the Main Staff. This
6 order was forwarded inter alia to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The corps
7 had the area of responsibility which included the city of Sarajevo.
8 My question is this: Does this order reflect the contents of the
9 meeting as discussed at the airport by you and General Mladic as well as
10 the rest of the delegation?
11 A. Yes. Yes, sir. And based on this order -- sorry. I knew from
12 General Galic that he issued an order to his subordinates. However,
13 unfortunately, the situation did not prevail for a long period of time,
14 and firing and shelling continues for a long period of time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek clarification of the answer.
16 You said:
17 "I knew from General Galic that he issued an order to his
19 Do you mean to say that General Galic issued an order to his
20 subordinates, or did you mean to say that General Mladic issued an order
21 to his subordinates, because we are looking at an order apparently issued
22 by General Mladic? Which of the two you meant when you said "he issued
23 an order"?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what happens in military
25 matters. Orders are issued from the commanders to the commanders of
1 sectors, and then the commanders of the sectors issue orders to the
2 various units. So if Galic told me that there is an order in this
3 regard, this means that this order was issued based on instructions from
4 General Mladic. This is what I meant.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you, General. Since you've already mentioned
7 General Galic, I would also like to ask for a document, P302.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise.
9 Should I tender the documents as I deal with them, or should I tender
10 them all together at the end of the session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You can tender them once you're dealing with them.
12 Did you want to tender the previous document, the order which we have on
13 our screen now?
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if I may.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you want to have it marked for
19 identification because there is no final translation yet.
20 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D343 becomes Exhibit D65 marked for
22 identification, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
24 Yes, Mr. Petrusic.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I please have the next
1 document now, and that is -- yes. Yes. Yes, it's already on our
3 Q. This is a document dated the 10th of October, 1992. It was
4 issued by the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and it was signed
5 by the commander, Stanislav Galic.
6 General, sir, you will see paragraphs 1 and 2 that have to do
7 with the ban on using any kind of artillery weaponry and also the ban on
8 opening any kind of fire at the town of Sarajevo. Will you agree with me
9 that General Galic issued this order on the basis of the order of the
10 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska as is stated at the end of
11 this document that we have here?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Further on does that mean that the order of the Main Staff that
14 General Galic received could not have been changed by him?
15 A. Yes. Yes, sir. I agree.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to tender this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar. It's already in evidence because
19 it was called as --
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I beg your pardon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. General, sir, when you came to Sarajevo, when you started your
24 tour there, as you journeyed from the airport to your command, you
25 noticed some damage on the buildings there, didn't you?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Just after you took -- took up your command duty, you had a
3 meeting with General Galic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mrs. Plavsic was present as well, wasn't she?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Did General Galic present to you the position of his superior
8 command, the Main Staff, that is, in relation to Sarajevo? That is to
9 say both in terms of shelling and sniping.
10 THE INTERPRETER: We apologise, but we could not hear the answer.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters did not hear your answer. Could
12 you please repeat the start of your answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that meeting, I was
14 introducing myself to the various relevant stakeholders, and this meeting
15 was mostly an introductory meeting, and I was seeking their co-operation
16 in order to achieve the success of the UNPROFOR mission in the sector.
17 However, we did not tackle too many details during that meeting.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But was the position of the superior command
19 discussed in relation to shelling and sniping in relation to Sarajevo?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, sir. It was an
21 introductory meeting. I was introducing myself to the parties.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you, General. 1D336. Could I now have
24 that document, please.
25 It is a fact that this document was issued a month before you
1 arrived. However, do allow me just briefly to focus on this document
2 with you. The 13th of July, 1992, is the date, and it is signed by
3 General Ratko Mladic. It is a document of the Main Staff of the
4 Army of Republika Srpska.
5 General, would you please focus on page 2. Of course you can
6 look at page 1 as well; the first paragraph, that is. Once you've had a
7 look, could you please tell me so that we can have the second page
8 displayed for you.
9 A. [In English] Could you please [indiscernible]. I can't catch the
10 word. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Let's move on.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the second
12 page of the document now.
13 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to -- yes, well, the only
14 paragraph, paragraph 2.
15 A. [Interpretation] Yes, I can see orders issued by a higher command
16 to the relevant commands in the sector.
17 Q. General, sir, in relation to the previous orders that you saw,
18 October and November, this document that was issued on the 13th of July,
19 does it differ in any way -- sorry. General Mladic, who issued this
20 document, is he fully consistent in terms of not allowing shelling and
21 not allowing the use of artillery against the town of Sarajevo?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, isn't it true that the consistency or
23 inconsistency between documentary evidence is for the Chamber to decide?
24 Of course, unless the witness sees anything very special, but this is a
25 document which deals with matters before his arrival, and you're more or
1 less asking the witness to interpret the document. Again, if he has any
2 specific knowledge on specific matters appearing in this document, it may
3 be of some use. Otherwise, I don't see what use it serves.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. These three documents, are they consistent, the three documents
6 that you had an opportunity to see?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently you do not understand my comment,
8 Mr. Petrusic. Would you please put your next question to the witness.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In the further talks that you had, did General Galic suggest to
11 you -- or, rather, did he ever say to you that he had had explicit orders
12 from his superior command not to use artillery weapons in Sarajevo?
13 A. Yes. This is what I mentioned. He said that there are orders,
14 that he issued orders, and I told him that these orders should be
15 communicated to your staff and that you should ensure that it is followed
16 up. And he confirmed it, and this means that he received orders from the
17 higher command. We say instructions are issued by the higher command and
18 orders are issued to the subordinates. This is the terminology we use.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
20 document into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D336 becomes Exhibit D66, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. General, sir, do you know what General Galic's attitude was
1 towards his superior command?
2 A. No. Specifically I don't know such things. I'm not aware of
3 them. But when I talked about his relations with his superior command, I
4 was talking about my personal impression, and I reiterated that several
5 times. We are generals who understand how things happen, and I was
6 talking about a personal impression here.
7 Q. Could anyone else issued orders to General Galic?
8 A. I don't know, sir. I don't know. All I know concerning that
9 specific issues is that he said there were directives, and I have given
10 my instructions to my subordinates but I do not know what is the
11 relationship between the military and the political commands, how orders
12 are received from whom. I don't know all these details.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, before you move to the next -- to your
14 next question, the document which was admitted a second ago, D66, may I
15 take it that the translation originates from the Prosecution?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please have a look at -- only at the stamp
18 where it mentions the 4th of June, where I see some handwriting which is
19 1407 rather than the 4th of June. I don't see anything of the kind. So
20 could perhaps the translation be verified. I recognise the 204 on the
21 second line, but the 4th of June, the only thing I see is 1407 in
22 handwriting, or if the 1 is not a 1 but just a dash, then it would still
23 be the 4th of July rather than the 4th of June. So I have difficulties
24 in accepting this to be an accurate translation.
25 Could you please check that, Mr. Vanderpuye, and if need be,
1 inform Mr. Petrusic. Meanwhile, Mr. Petrusic may continue.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Document 1D347, please.
3 Q. This is also a draft translation from the Office of the Defence.
4 General, would you please familiarise yourself with the content of this
5 document, and then please tell us whether you recall this situation.
6 A. [In English] I have to have the camera to be focused on this.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry, Mr. President. I was just going to
9 indicate that we perhaps could blow it up so he could see a little
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I -- I remember this, yeah.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In spite of the order issued by General Mladic last Tuesday which
14 refers to the removal of a container and wooden obstacles on the road
15 leading to the airport, these obstacles and this container are still in
16 the same place. Is this an order that you received from General Mladic,
17 and, actually, how did you know about this?
18 A. [Interpretation] This order is clear. We at the UN, we
19 communicate with people at the various levels, at the command level, the
20 field level, and --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you again, Mr. Abdel-Razek. The question
22 is how were you aware of this order having been issued by Mr. Mladic.
23 Did you hear it? Did you see it? If you heard it, from whom did you
24 hear it? If you saw it, how did you obtain the document?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document is linked to the
1 first meeting that I had with General Galic during which he told me that
2 there were directive issued, and usually when he received directives from
3 General Mladic he issues instructions. This is how I understand things
4 from a military perspective. When there is a directive issued from the
5 higher command, the commander issues instructions to his subordinates.
6 So I was referring to the instructions given by the general, and despite
7 these instructions the situation did not get better. This is what I
9 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is you heard of such an order when you
10 met with General Galic. Is that correctly understood?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. After your intervention did the situation improve, specifically
15 in this case?
16 A. After that I met with Galic a second time, and we reached an
17 agreement that the container or the obstacles that were placed along the
18 airport road, he was worried that the other side will be using the
19 airport. So I told him we will supervise the control of the airport by
20 opening up another route. We agreed on that, and on the following day
21 this was executed. And I issued orders to the French battalion asking
22 them to put a control point along the airport road in order to prevent
23 any obstacles to the UN vehicles and the UN convoys.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This is a draft translation, yes,
25 a draft translation, and I would like to tender this document for
1 identification purposes only.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D347 becomes Exhibit D67 marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. It keeps that status
6 for a while.
7 Mr. Vanderpuye, if finally a -- if a final translation will have
8 been received, would there be any objection as far as you can see now?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, during your mandate, did you receive any protests or
13 complaints from the Serbian side to the effect that UNPROFOR members and
14 members of other international organisations were smuggling in weapons
15 for the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo?
16 A. No. No, I never heard such objections. They were never raised
17 in my meetings with anyone. I've never heard about the smuggling of
18 weapons by UNPROFOR forces.
19 Q. How about other international organisations?
20 A. I've never heard of that either. Throughout my presence in
21 Sarajevo, I've never heard that other international organisations were
22 smuggling weapons to the Bosnian government forces.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a document --
24 or, rather, a video-clip, 1D358. The transcript of the interpretation
25 was produced by the Defence office.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The booths don't have the
3 JUDGE ORIE: The booth complains -- or at least states they have
4 no transcript, Mr. Petrusic. Apparently not in either language.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it lasts for about
6 one minute. Can we play it without the sound, and possibly ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: And possibly what, Mr. Petrusic?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] So that possibly we could see
9 members of the peacekeeping forces, and I would like to ask the general
10 if he can recognise certain soldiers in this video.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If a party does not rely on the sound and any words
12 spoken, then the video may be played without sound, and it has to be
13 played only once.
14 Please play the video.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. General, in this video were you able to recognise anything?
18 A. In reality, the video does not show where did that happen and the
19 exact situation. We see a number of images, but that's not something
20 I've heard about neither through complaints or protests from the command,
21 and I really don't know where that happened and what are the details of
22 the situation. That's not something I've heard about. That's not
23 something I was informed about. There were no official communications
24 about that. However, there was smuggling of fuel, but this is another
25 story. It was a disciplinary issue. There was smuggling of fuel from
1 the Ukrainian battalion. They were selling fuel outside of Sarajevo, and
2 we investigated that with the police, and measures were taken against the
3 violators. There were other incidents. For example, they took a car.
4 They stole a car. But there was a investigation with the police, and I
5 issued a suggestion for the head of that battalion to be sent back to his
6 home country, but that was a different matter, a disciplinary matter.
7 Concerning this, I haven't heard anything about this. I have no
9 And I would like to add something if it's possible. As a
10 military man, I know that these things happen in times of war. Nobody
11 can control everything that's going on on the ground, nobody.
12 Q. But, sir, in any case, you were able to recognise blue helmets in
13 this video, weren't you?
14 A. The UN can investigate the matter, and if I recall well, there is
15 someone that I might have recognised. It's Major Jackson. He was
16 Canadian, and he used to work with us in operations, but this is someone
17 that I do not doubt at all. I don't doubt at all his discipline. I
18 don't think that he has anything to do with that matter.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you recognise any other person apart from the
20 person you just mentioned?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, I was trying to focus on the
22 blue helmets. They seem to be soldiers, and it would be difficult for me
23 to remember, but the person wearing glasses, I think he was a major, if I
24 recall well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it from your answers that you did not
1 recognise the location where this was filmed.
2 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
3 [Interpretation] ... I could see a container and this is the
4 container I was referring to. It was in the middle of the road between
5 Otes and the airport. And -- and we put that container instead of the
6 container that was placed previously by the Serbian forces in order to
7 control access to the airport.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic. And keep in mind that
9 we are coming closer and closer to the point in time where Mr. --
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am at the very
11 end, perhaps one or two more questions, but before that, I would like to
12 tender this document into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, any --
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Referring to the video-tape in terms of doc'ing
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would ask that it be marked for identification
18 at this point. I don't know what it says, and it may, in fact, support
19 or not support what the witness has said about it or what counsel's
20 representations are as to it.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, just looking at all this, the
23 probative value is entirely unclear to the Chamber. Apparently you also
24 have -- you cannot rely on it because what the witness says is not -- is
25 not anyway -- in any way support what may be your interpretation of this
1 video of which the Chamber is not aware yet. Therefore, admission is
2 denied without prejudice. If at any later stage you consider that it
3 could be tendered again, then we'll look at it at that moment.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Sir, were you aware or did you have any information at all that
7 sometime in early January 1993, the Muslim forces started digging a
8 tunnel underneath the airport runway in Sarajevo?
9 A. No. No, I've never heard of such thing. All I've heard is that
10 there were civilians crossing the runway from Butmir to the city and
11 vice versa. And this is something that was mentioned in my statement.
12 As for a tunnel, I've never heard of that.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Sir, you spoke about the shelling of a funeral procession, and in
16 your statement, you indicate that fire came from the Serbian side. Would
17 you allow for a possibility that there could be other interpretations and
18 other perceptions in the sense that perhaps the other party, that is to
19 say the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, were the ones who opened fire at
20 this funeral procession in Sarajevo?
21 A. There were lots of allegations from the various parties, and the
22 Serbian side often said that the Bosnian side was opening fire on
23 civilians and on buildings in order to get the sympathy from the
24 international community and to get international support. This is
25 something that we heard often in all meetings. Every party tried to
1 distance itself from these allegations, said they were not committing
2 these mistakes and these violations. This is all I know. There were
3 allegations from both sides, but the Serbian side often said that the
4 other side was doing that to -- to themselves in order to justify an
5 international intervention.
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Sir, thank you. I have no further
7 questions for you.
8 Your Honours, this concludes my cross-examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would need anything between five and
14 ten minutes. Please proceed.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
17 Q. General, I just have a few questions for you. At page 7 of
18 today's transcript -- are you all right?
19 A. [In English] Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay.
20 Q. At page 7 of today's transcript you were asked a number of
21 questions concerning what you had referred to about retaliation in
22 respect of fire that was drawn from mobile units, and in particular, I
23 wondered if you had ever spoken to General Galic about this retaliation
24 or this retaliatory fire while you were in Sarajevo.
25 A. [Interpretation] Yes, sir. It was very clear. I told him, You
1 are firing at the UN building, and you should understand what the
2 consequences will be.
3 We turned into victims similar to the civilians in Sarajevo. We
4 are targeted by fire, shelling, mortar bombs. He said, Fires were
5 coming -- fire was coming from your direction. I told him, Yes, I know.
6 I protested strongly, and I told the other side very strongly that this
7 should stop and no vehicles should -- no vehicles should fire from within
8 a perimeter of 500 metres from UN premises according to UN rules. And
9 he -- he said, Should they stop firing, we will also act in the same way
10 and stop retaliating.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, the answer to your question is
12 found, I have here unnumbered, page 15 of the statement, last paragraph
13 there. Seventy-seven. So, therefore, what is in the statement doesn't
14 need to be further asked.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I'm not asking about the
16 statement. I'm asking about his statement regarding it today.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your question was whether he ever discussed
18 it with General Galic. That was your question.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, it's clear from this paragraph that "I recall
21 one meeting prior to my last meeting with General Galic. He told me --"
22 so he discussed it.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE:
1 Q. Do you recall what you said in your testimony in the Karadzic
2 case about your talk with General Galic on this matter? If you don't,
3 I'll be happy to read a little bit of it to you to refresh your
5 A. [In English] Okay.
6 Q. What you said in the Karadzic case, and this is 20 July 2010 with
7 respect to this conversation, is that you told General Galic:
8 "You should not retaliate --" and by the way this is at page 5554
9 of the transcript.
10 You told General Galic that:
11 "I will accept that there are forces that are positioned in
12 certain places, but you should be wise. You should not retaliate against
13 areas where there are many civilians. You should not retaliate against
14 areas where there are -- you can retaliate," rather, "somewhere else
15 along the front, but to attack areas where there are civilians, this is a
16 mistake. It brings major injuries. It hurts us. It hurts public
17 opinion, because in brief there are civilians getting killed, and there
18 are humanitarian facilities and hospitals that are getting destroyed and
19 unable to function. So they should move away from shelling any civilian
20 population centres."
21 Does that sound about right?
22 A. [Interpretation] Yes, sir, I said that I was getting into details
23 because I was provided with details, and this is what I said exactly.
24 Q. Thank you. You were asked at today's transcript, I think it's
25 page 34, if anyone could issue General Galic orders, or anyone else could
1 issue General Galic orders, and you said that you didn't know. You did
2 say at your statement, however, that General Galic received orders to
3 conduct shooting and shelling. You believe he followed them because he
4 was a soldier. This is at paragraph 121.
5 To your knowledge and understanding during the time you were in
6 Sarajevo, who was General Galic's commander?
7 A. Sir, I clearly said that this was my personal impression. I knew
8 the commanders. This is a personal impression. According to my
9 impression, Galic is one of these commanders who implements the orders
10 fully and exactly. If he receives order to proceed into shelling, he
11 would do so. I said that this is my own impression, my own personal
12 impression based on my meetings with him. This is what I meant, should
13 this clarify my answer. So I suppose that he received an order, and I
14 invite you once again to go back to the relevant documents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell Mr. Vanderpuye who was the immediate
16 superior to General Galic in the hierarchy of the VRS.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE:
20 Q. Did you see any evidence during your time in Sarajevo that
21 General Galic received orders from anyone other than his immediate
22 superior, General Mladic?
23 A. This happened when I was reviewing the documents. I found a
24 document and it surprised me. It contained orders from Dr. Koljevic
25 whereby he issues order to co-operate with the civilians. I think that
1 this was not normal. I know that the Serbian troops were very
2 professional. We have had long-term relationship with them. They are
3 very professional, and I don't think that this was the normal chain of
5 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from this exception, do you have any evidence
6 of other incidents where you -- that General Galic received orders from
7 anyone else than his immediate superior? So apart from this Koljevic
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, sir. This was the only
10 exception that I found.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further
14 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions. Judge Fluegge has one
15 question for you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed, I would like to clarify one matter,
18 and for that I need P302 on the screen, please. We don't have it yet.
19 A. [In English] I have it. I have it, sir, but I want to have it in
20 focus, please.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have seen it earlier. Mr. Petrusic, in one of
22 his questions, and this is on page 30 of today's transcript, was
23 suggesting to you the following, and I quote:
24 "Would you agree with me that General Galic issued this order on
25 the basis of the order of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska
1 as is stated at the end of this document that we have here?"
2 I think there is a reference to an order by the Main Staff but
3 not at the end but at the beginning of this. You see here on the screen
4 the first line, "Pursuant to an order by the Main Staff of the
5 Army of Republika Srpska." I take it that this document is from the
6 10th of October, 1992. Before I put a question to you, I would now like
7 to have D65, which is marked for identification, on the screen.
8 We saw that earlier today too. This is a document signed by
9 Mr. Mladic, dated 11th of November, 1992.
10 Sir, can you help me? Could this order of the Commander Mladic
11 of the 11th of November be the basis for the order we have seen dated
12 10th of October, 1992, which was suggested by Mr. Petrusic?
13 A. [Interpretation] I think so.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The order of Mr. Mladic is dated
15 11th of November. The order by General Galic was dated 10th of October,
16 much earlier than the order of Mr. Mladic, one month earlier.
17 A. To my recollection, the main document that was issued pertaining
18 to a cease-fire was another document, a different document, and I think
19 it comprised something also pertaining to the Croatian troops, that they
20 should be exempt from this order because they did not sign the agreement.
21 Maybe this is an attachment to the main document whereby the orders of
22 Mr. Galic were issued. However, should Galic issue any order, he should
23 have received instructions from the higher command, and this is very
24 normal in military hierarchy. When we have main instructions, they
25 should be issued by the Supreme Command to the middle command, then to
1 the staff underground or Executive Command.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I very well understand your general explanation.
3 Thank you for that. That concludes my questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions by the Bench triggered any
5 need -- or if not.
6 Mr. Abdel-Razek, I apologise for being three minutes late as far
7 as the time you indicated you would like to be able to leave this
8 courtroom. I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
9 The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you by
10 the parties and by the Bench. I wish you a safe return home and good
11 health, and you may follow the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break. Could the Defence meanwhile
15 look into ID330, ID327, and ID335, which, if I'm not mistaken, are not
16 yet tendered, whereas I think you announced, Mr. Petrusic, that you
17 intended to tender them. 1D -- its -- yes, I say ID but I should say 1D
18 for all three. Then after the break, is the witness ready?
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are a few special matters to be
21 discussed before we start with the next witness. We'll deal with them at
22 the beginning of the next session. We will resume -- take a break and
23 resume at five minutes to 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move briefly into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 3682-3683 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Could you please stand for a second. And I'd like to invite you
11 to make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you
12 by Madam Usher.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: RM081
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Witness RM081.
18 Witness, you'll first be examined by Ms. D'Ascoli, and you'll
19 find her to your right.
20 Ms. D'Ascoli, are you ready to start your examination-in-chief?
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I am, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli is counsel for the Prosecution as you
23 may be aware of already.
24 Please proceed.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I call up the
1 pseudonym sheet I just wanted to advise the parties that we are
2 proceeding in this way like we did previously with another protected
3 witness, RM032, meaning that we have created a pseudonym sheet that also
4 contains the name of certain person that might identify the witness, and
5 in this way if the witness at any point feels that he needs to refer to
6 these persons, he could refer to the names rather than -- sorry, to the
7 numbers rather than the names.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you have instructed the witness
9 thoroughly on the matter.
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I have, Your Honours. And I would also ask
11 later for leave to give one of these heard copies to the witness so he
12 has it before himself and to the Defence as well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, leave is granted already. Please proceed.
14 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
15 Q. Sir, I will now show you a document which contains personal
16 information related to you.
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have 65 ter 28443, not for public
18 broadcast, of course. This is the pseudonym sheet of the witness.
19 Q. Sir, once the document is on the screen, I would ask you to have
20 a look at it but not to read out loud the information contained in it,
21 and I would ask you to confirm that what you see now on the screen, your
22 name and your date of birth are correct. Please again do not repeat the
23 information, just confirm whether this information related to your name
24 and date of birth are correct.
25 A. Yes, it is correct.
1 Q. And, sir, just a reminder of what we discussed during preparation
2 for the testimony, you see a list of other names at the bottom part of
3 this -- of this sheet. Just to remind you that because we are in public
4 session, so if you need to refer to any of these individuals, please
5 refer to them by the numbers that you see on the side. And I will now
6 ask the Court Usher if they can give you a hard copy of this document so
7 you have it with you.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I have hard copies for Chambers,
9 too, for the Judges, too. And I would now ask to -- I would now tender
10 the pseudonym sheet mark with -- marked with 65 ter number 28433 [sic]
11 into evidence under seal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28443 becomes Exhibit P308,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The number you may have misspoken, Ms. D'Ascoli, or
16 it may have been wrongly transcribed. It's 28443, which is the -- line
17 13 of this page you see that the number is different, but it's the
18 pseudonym sheet.
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, it's 28443, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P308 is admitted into evidence under seal.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now ask the Court Officer to call up
22 65 ter 28442, and again not for public broadcast, please.
23 Q. Witness, while the document is brought up on the screen, do you
24 remember providing a statement to the ICTY on 17 September 2011?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. And now that the document is on the screen, can you please have a
2 look at the signature at the bottom of the page in the original version
3 of -- in the B/C/S document, and can you please tell us whether you
4 recognise that signature.
5 A. I do recognise it.
6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement in
7 preparation for your appearance before the Court today?
8 A. I have.
9 Q. And, sir, are you satisfied that this is -- the statement is an
10 accurate record of your evidence of what happened and what you
11 experienced, as far as you can remember?
12 A. I am.
13 Q. And if we -- if you -- if you were asked today the same questions
14 that were asked in preparation for this statement, would you give the
15 same answers in substance?
16 A. I would.
17 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
18 that you provided that information in accordance with the truth?
19 A. I do.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28442
21 pursuant to Rule 92 ter under seal.
22 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28442 becomes Exhibit P309 under seal,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P309 is admitted under seal.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, for ease of reference of the
4 parties, we have also prepared a table of references of correspondence
5 that shows the 65 ter numbers correspond -- the Mladic 65 ter numbers
6 corresponding to the Karadzic ones that are used in the document so I
7 would tender that document, too, at this stage. It is 65 ter 28373.
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28373 becomes Exhibit P310,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. It needs to be under
13 seal or not?
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: No it don't, Your Honours, also because when later
15 we will tender public versions that will be useful to have it as a public
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. There are also six associated
19 exhibit to the witness statement now in evidence as P309. Upon review,
20 we will only tender three today of these associated exhibit, so I'm going
21 to tender one of these now together with the statement, and this is
22 65 ter 08895, and I would ask it to be under seal.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08895 becomes Exhibit P311 under seal,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P311 is admitted under seal.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: I will then discuss and tender with the witness in
4 direct examination 65 ter 08500 and 65 ter 09097. While with regard to
5 65 ter 09077 to which the Defence has objected in their response to
6 RM081's 92 motion, at this stage we simply note that this witness, RM081,
7 discusses this document in paragraph 98 of his statements, provide his
8 comments, and we will tender this document from the bar table or through
9 another witness at a later stage.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: And with the Chamber's leave I would like to read
12 a summary of the witness's evidence for the public and the record.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have explained to the witness the purpose
14 of it?
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I have.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So a summary will now be read. Please.
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: The witness is a Bosnian Muslim from the
18 municipality of Rogatica. He testifies about the takeover of Rogatica by
19 Serb forces on 21/22 May 1992.
20 The witness testifies that following the attack, announcement
21 were made that Muslims without weapons should surrender themselves to the
22 Serb authorities at the Vlahovic Secondary School.
23 The witness went to the school with approximately 200 to 300
24 other Muslims. The school eventually held 1.100 people. Rajko Kusic was
25 for a time the commander of the detection facility at the
1 Vlahovic Secondary School. The witness was detained in the school for
2 approximately three months and a half. He describes the deplorable
3 living conditions at the school where detainees had insufficient food and
4 water, opportunities to preserve personal hygiene were inadequate and
5 sleeping quarters were overcrowded.
6 The witness further testifies about beating, killings, and rapes
7 at the school performed on detainees by the school guards.
8 And that concludes the summary, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, it's only now that the translation
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: I can see that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: When you read, please slow down.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I will, Your Honours.
14 Q. Witness RM081, I will now have a few questions for you today.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have on the screen 65 ter 09097.
16 Public display is fine for this exhibit.
17 Q. Witness, I will show you a document that pertains to the events
18 in Rogatica in May/June 1992. This document, Witness, is discussed in
19 your statement. This is paragraph 39, for the record. And I would like
20 to ask you to comment a bit more about it in addition to what is in your
21 statement. This is an operative report from the Rogatica Brigade command
22 dated the 11th of June, 1992, and addressed to the SRK command.
23 Sir, first of all, can you have a look at the bottom of page 1 in
24 the original document, and I -- I will ask you whether you recognise the
25 name of the author of this order, of the commander who issued the order.
1 A. Yes, I recognise the name, although it's not his signature.
2 Q. The document is sent -- the author of the document
3 is Commander Rajko Kusic, and you described Kusic's role in detailing
4 your statement, so I won't ask further questions about that.
5 I want to show you -- I want you to comment on the first sentence
6 of the very first paragraph of the document. So maybe if we can zoom on
7 the first paragraph of the B/C/S, please. Yes, the very top of the page.
8 Sir, can you look at this very first sentence that says:
9 "In the brigade's zone of responsibility, there were no sizable
10 enemy activities."
11 You can, of course, also read it for yourself in the original of
12 the document.
13 I want to ask you if this is consistent with what you observed in
14 Rogatica in May and June 1992, and by that I mean whether according to
15 your recollection, were there any significant enemy activities as it is
16 said in this document, and considering the context of this document,
17 enemy activities by non-Serb forces in the area of Rogatica? Is that
18 consistent with your recollection of the events in that period?
19 A. In essence, it is roughly the way it is stated in the first
20 sentence of this document, but even if there was any activity in the area
21 of Rogatica, I cannot say anything about that because I was in the very
22 centre of town itself with a lot of other people, and in the town itself,
23 there weren't any activities of ours because there were about 3.500 to
24 4.000 civilians, women, children, the elderly, and there were men of my
25 age who were civilians and who had not had any contact with weapons.
1 Quite simply, they happened to be where they were, and from that point of
2 view this first sentence does make sense in terms of the overall
3 situation in the town of Rogatica. However, as far as the centre of town
4 is concerned --
5 Q. Yes, that's clear. And just to clarify, when you say "there
6 weren't any activities of ours," what do you mean by "ours"? Do you mean
7 civilians? Do you mean Muslims? Do you mean your community? Can you
8 clarify that, please?
9 A. What I thought of and as I tried to explain to you, these were
10 men, people, civilians, lots of women, lots of children, lots of elderly
11 people, lots of sick people. We had no possibility of carrying out any
12 kind of activity. We stayed in Rogatica hoping that there wouldn't be
13 any difficult situations there. While specifically for me personally ...
14 Q. Next, can you please have a look at the second sentence, and this
15 says -- it's again the first paragraph, just the second sentence where it
17 "Large numbers of Muslim civilians arrive in town every day,
18 mostly women and children and unarmed people."
19 And again can you tell us whether this corresponds to your
20 experience of the events.
21 A. Absolutely not, because at that time no one could enter Rogatica
22 or leave Rogatica. What it says here, that the population was being put
23 up at the secondary school, that was not the case. The population was
24 being taken prisoner and then escorted by the Serb army brought to the
25 secondary school where we were taken over by these guards, whatever
1 they're called, people who were in charge of that. When people arrived
2 in camp, they tried to be put up any way that was possible, and then two
3 girls came and registered the persons who had been brought to the school.
4 Q. Let me -- let me interrupt you there, Witness. You were, in
5 fact, covering that -- I'm -- meaning like I was going to ask you a
6 question about this other sentence that you just commented upon in the
7 document. This is the third part of the third sentence of, again, the
8 first paragraph where the document says:
9 "The people are finding shelter or are being accommodated,"
10 depending on the translation, "in the secondary school centre?"
11 And my question to you, I was going to ask you whether also this
12 corresponded to your recollection to what actually was happening at the
13 school for what you have seen it, but I take it from your answer that
14 this is not correct; right?
15 A. Absolutely not correct.
16 Q. Yes. And you described why not in your previous answer. So I
17 will leave it there.
18 My last question about this document is with regard to the first
19 sentence of the second paragraph of the document. You can read it where
20 it says:
21 "Snipers are firing from one or two places in town."
22 And my question is whether you remember snipers firing in town,
24 A. I said at the very beginning that in Rogatica, in the area where
25 I moved about and where I happened to be as this situation occurred,
1 there weren't any weapons there. There weren't any sniper shooters
2 there. There weren't any military actions being taken by this civilian
3 population. I did see sniper shooters. I did see that, but they
4 belonged to the Serb army. You could see that with the naked eye,
5 because the distance was from 50 to 100 to 150 to 200 metres roughly. I
6 could see that. Other people could see that too. And Serb soldiers also
7 had these nests from which they controlled the part of town where I was.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, this is one of the associated
9 exhibit, and I would tender it at this stage as a public exhibit,
10 65 ter 09097.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I think I have to object based upon the
13 witness's testimony at transcript page 58, line 24, that this is not --
14 he recognises the signature is not belonging to the person that is the
15 purported author; whereas in the statement it says that it is signed by
16 this person Kusic, and the witness has just testified that this is not
17 his signature.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist me in taking us to the relevant
20 paragraph of the --
21 MR. IVETIC: Paragraph 39, Your Honour, of the statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 MR. IVETIC: And today's transcript temporary page 58, line 24.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, could I clarify that with the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, Ms. D'Ascoli.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI:
4 Q. Sir, could you please look again at the bottom of this first page
5 where the -- the stamp of the -- the stamp and the signature of the
6 author of this document, Commander Rajko Kusic, is. You said that -- so
7 you of course recognise the -- this person, but you think that is not his
8 signature; is that correct?
9 A. What is added in pencil is not his signature. At least it's not
10 the signature that I know. And I think that I do know it well. And also
11 it says here "za" for the commander. So somebody signed for the
12 commander on behalf of the commander. I don't know.
13 Q. That was my point. If we can have a look at the English version
14 because normally these types of documents would be signed on behalf. So
15 I just wanted to see if we have the same translation in the English.
16 Page 2. Go to page 2. And it says "and written for," well, the
17 signature for the commander.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then the only thing still to be clarified is in your
19 statement, Witness, you said this is a document signed by Mr. Kusic. Do
20 I understand that looking closer at it that you say the signature is,
21 first of all, because I know his signature, this is not his signature,
22 and that that was a mistake when you earlier said that it was signed by
23 Mr. Kusic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Do the --
1 MR. IVETIC: That takes care of my objection, Your Honour. I
2 withdraw the objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09097 becomes Exhibit P312,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P312 is admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now please have on the screen 65 ter 08500.
8 And also public display is fine for this document.
9 Q. Witness, I will show you another document that you have already
10 seen and discussed in your statement.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: And for the record, this is at paragraph 55 of the
13 Q. And again I would like to ask you a couple of more questions
14 about it. This is a statement sheet for the security services centre,
15 the police station of Rogatica, and lists the name of active policemen
16 working in Rogatica in May 1992.
17 Sir, can you see the document on the screen? Are you familiar
18 with this document?
19 A. I see it.
20 Q. You're familiar with it; right?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. Sir, you have enumerated in your statement the people that you
23 knew on this list and many of these individuals are also referred to in
24 different parts of your statement. Now, just generally without going
25 into name by name because we have the references to the names that you
1 have recognised in the statement, can you tell us how you knew these
3 A. Well, I know all of these people because, first of all, Rogatica
4 is not a big town. Well, I specifically knew all of these people because
5 of the work that I did and then also on a personal level. So I can just
6 say that I knew them very well.
7 Q. And do you know if they were working at the Rogatica police
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And from your statement, I take it that you saw some of these
11 people at the Vlahovic Secondary School during the months in which you
12 were detained there. For example, if we have a look -- if you have a
13 look at the names listed in numbers 3, 11, and 19 of page 1, and I
14 repeat, 3, 11, and 19, are these the names of the soldiers who were seen
15 taking women out of the camp school to rape them? You should look at the
16 document on the screen, not at the one on your table.
17 And I will -- I just wanted to confirm with you that the names
18 listed in the document on the screen at numbers 3, 11, and 19 are the
19 names of the soldiers who were seen taking women out of the camp school
20 to rape them; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And now if you look at the name listed in number 37 on page 2,
23 number 37, this person was questioning people, including you, at the
24 school; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, this is also one of the associated
2 exhibit, and I would tender it into evidence as a public exhibit.
3 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08500 becomes Exhibit P313,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P313 is admitted into evidence.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI:
9 Q. Witness, I now have a question about Rajko Kusic's presence at
10 Vlahovic school. In your statement, you discuss a long visit by Kusic at
11 the school, a visit that lasted about an hour during which Kusic said
12 that people detained at the school and in Rogatica were not co-operating
13 enough, that this was creating problems for him as he had a deadline for
14 cleansing Rogatica and that he had to report to Pale about that.
15 For the record, this is paragraph 90 of the witness statement.
16 Sir, my question is quite a simple one: Do you remember when
17 this long visit of Kusic took place?
18 A. It's possible it was the end of June 1992 or the beginning of
19 July. As for the exact date, I cannot remember, because -- actually, we
20 could not remember dates. There weren't any calendars there or there was
21 no other possibility of orienting oneself in terms of what day it was,
22 what month it was.
23 Q. Yes. I was just asking approximately. No worries. Thank you.
24 A. Approximately end of June or beginning of July.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay. Can I now have 65 ter 28449 on the screens.
1 And, Your Honours, maybe I can give some information about this document,
2 because this was created by -- with the witness in preparation of his
3 testimony on the basis of the names recognised by the witness in one of
4 the associated exhibit, 08685, exhibit which is discussed at paragraph 82
5 of the witness statement.
6 The problem we had with this exhibit, which was tendered with the
7 witness in the Krajisnik case, is that the names identified by the
8 witness were not visible or clear any more because they were identified
9 through a highlighting rather than any other markings. Therefore, we
10 have asked the witness to identify those names again, and we have put
11 these names in a table which is now 65 ter 28449.
12 So, first of all, I would request leave to add this to the
13 Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list.
14 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted to add this document to the 65 ter
16 list. Please proceed.
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Sir, in your previous testimony in Krajisnik, you were presented
19 with the document of the Bosnia commission for missing persons
20 identifying the remains of victims exhumed from the Paklenik pit among
21 others. Out of this list you identified a number of people who were from
22 Rogatica. Now, can you please look at the names at the document on the
23 screen. Can you tell us whether you recognise the names in the table?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And are these the names of the people from Rogatica who were
1 hiding in cellars with you, discussed at paragraph 82 of your statement?
2 A. Yes. Yes. These are the names of people who were hiding in
3 basements from the shelling.
4 Q. Yes. I wanted to ask to clarify that for us. What you do you
5 mean by "basement" or "cellars," and where was this and when did this
6 episode or event happen, because that is not clear enough from your
8 A. When I mentioned basements or cellars, I mean cellars in the
9 centre of town, the centre of Rogatica where there are about five or six
10 smaller and taller residential buildings, and these buildings had these
11 cellars that many residential buildings should have, and then we hid in
12 these cellars during the shelling of town. And sometimes we'd stay there
13 for days. Actually, for as long as the shelling went on.
14 Q. Therefore, insofar as the time-frame is concerned, I take it that
15 these happened before people were brought to the
16 Vlahovic Secondary School and you, yourself; right?
17 A. Yes. It was the time from the 21st of May up until the
18 6th of June when I had to go to the school.
19 Q. And can you tell us if you ever saw any of these men alive after
20 the summer of 1992?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And do you know what happened to them or to some of them?
23 A. I can say -- well, actually, there were some assumptions as to
24 what could have happened to some of the people we saw during those days,
25 and then all of a sudden we would not see them any more. There were
1 different assumptions, but when I arrived in the school, then we found
2 out from one of the survivors who was in this group. He actually told us
3 what had happened to all of these people during one of the operations.
4 Q. And can you tell us what it is -- what it is that he told you
5 happened to these people during one of the operations, one of the
6 survivors who was in that group?
7 A. Actually, as this square is actually a rectangle, they were in a
8 building in one of the corners, and then again this is close to the
9 Tehnotrans company, and that's where a sniper nest was. On one occasion
10 when the Serbian Army was shelling the area, they probably carried out
11 this operation. I did not see that. I was in the cellar. But this
12 witness told me about that. He said that they arrested them, tied them
13 up with wire and took them out of Rogatica along the road towards
14 Sarajevo, towards the greenhouse there. They took them somewhere. And
15 at one point in time one of these Serb soldiers recognised the survivor
16 and somehow managed to have him spared, but he had to report to the
17 police and the guards at the secondary school centre, and that is indeed
18 what he did, but he didn't know what happened to those other persons. He
19 didn't know then. Later on, I and all the rest, we knew these Serb
20 soldiers very well. We also knew the Serb police very well. And then
21 little by little we found out from these policemen and from these Serb
22 soldiers -- well, they basically told us all the things that had happened
23 to them and where this group had been killed, and we then realised that
24 all of these people who had been arrested then were killed too. That's
25 what the Serb soldiers said. They were killed underneath the bridge in
1 the area close to the Partisan cemetery.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I would tender this exhibit
3 65 ter 28449 into evidence as a public exhibit.
4 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28449 becomes Exhibit P314,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now have 65 ter 12229 on the screens,
10 please. Public display is okay for this document.
11 Q. Sir, can you just have a look at the first page of this B/C/S
12 document and tell me whether you recognise this document and you have
13 reviewed it in preparation for your testimony.
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: This is the exhumation report from the Paklenik
16 pit where the remains of the people from Rogatica named by the witness
17 were identified.
18 Q. Sir, just a question: Do you remember identifying also in this
19 report the names of the men from Rogatica that you knew, these men that
20 we just saw on the table and they were hiding with you in the cellars, in
21 the basements during the shelling of Rogatica? Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, we will be tendering, of course,
24 this exhumation record through proof of that witnesses, and at this time
25 I just wanted to establish the connection between the people from
1 Rogatica and the other evidence of the witness today. We will, of
2 course, make the appropriate submissions as to names, et cetera, unless
3 the Court feels that I should go through the names one by one at this
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not insist on going one by one.
6 However, it should be clear what has been shown to the witness. 65 ter
7 numbers are still changeable. MFI numbers are not.
8 Madam Registrar, this document to be MFI'd and then later
9 tendered would receive what number?
10 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 12229 becomes Exhibit P315 marked for
12 identification, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status until the Prosecution will
14 tender it. Please proceed.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can we now go into private session for a moment,
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI:
22 Q. Sir, my last set of questions.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: In the meantime, could I have on the screens P178,
24 which is the municipalities map book, and could you please turn to
25 page 28.
1 Q. Sir, in your statement you say the two mosques of Rogatica, the
2 Carsija mosque and the Arnaudija mosque were destroyed by the end of 1992
3 and only remains were left of these mosques. For the record, this is
4 paragraph 83. You also say that you remember that one mosque was
5 destroyed at the end of June or beginning of July and you describe how
6 that happened. Now, do you remember which one of the two mosques was the
7 one that was destroyed at the end of June or beginning of July 1992?
8 A. That was the upper mosque or as people used to call it,
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. So you discussed how a soldier, Danko Neric -
11 now, this is in the following paragraphs - was involved in the
12 destruction of this mosque. Do you remember if he was wearing a uniform
13 and if yes which type of uniform he was wearing?
14 A. He had an army uniform, the uniform of the former
15 Yugoslav People's Army, colour olive drab. He didn't have a cap, but he
16 had the insignia, because Serb soldiers habitually before any actions put
17 insignia on their uniforms, and those were of different colours. And he
18 had his small arms or sidearms with him.
19 Q. Sir, was there also a Catholic church or different Catholic
20 churches in Rogatica, if you know?
21 A. Yes, opposite the Veljko Vlahovic secondary centre. That's where
22 the Catholic church was, and that was the only Catholic church in town.
23 Q. And do you know if that was destroyed, too, in the summer 1992?
24 A. No. It remained intact, for at least as long as I was in
25 Rogatica. I don't know what happened afterwards.
1 Q. Sir, if you can now look at the map on the screen, this map
2 labels the mosque in Rogatica as well as the Vlahovic Secondary School.
3 So, now, first of all, based on your memory, do you think the -- the map
4 or where the arrows are accurately reflects the position more or less of
5 the -- of the mosques according to what you remember?
6 A. Yes. This is where they were as indicated in the map. I think
7 it's correct.
8 Q. And also if you look at the photos, for example -- and also the
9 aerial photo of the Vlahovic school, do you think, according to what you
10 remember, is it -- are these photos an accurate depiction of the mosque
11 before and after the destruction and also of the aerial place where the
12 Vlahovic school was located?
13 A. Yes, these are accurate photographs depicting
14 Veljko Vlahovic Secondary School and its location, and the other two
15 photographs show the places where the mosques of Rogatica used to stand.
16 Q. And now, sir, who controlled Rogatica, as far as you know,
17 between June and December 1992?
18 A. During this whole period, it was the Serb army and the Serb
19 police who had control over Rogatica.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Witness, thank you. I don't have other questions
21 for you at this stage.
22 Your Honours, that concludes my examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli. Yes. Judge Moloto would
24 like to ask one question.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question before we leave this page here,
1 sir. At page 73 of today's transcript, lines 4 to 8, the Prosecutor
2 asked you this question -- well, beg your pardon, you answered the
3 question as to what this policeman was wearing, and you said:
4 "He had an army uniform, the uniform of the former
5 Yugoslav People's Army, colour olive drab. He didn't have a cap," or
6 it's written "camp" here but I heard you say cap, "but he had the
7 insignia, because Serb soldiers habitually before any actions put
8 insignia on their uniforms."
9 My question to you is: What insignia did he have on his uniform?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember the order of
11 colours because that was often changed, but at that moment or on that
12 day, I think it was red and white ribbon tied to epaulette and they were
13 flying a bit. I remember that specifically, because I was wondering what
14 was that, but later on through experience we learned that that was some
15 kind of recognition sign among members of the Serb army. In the course
16 of operation what they actually indicated and what was the meaning of
17 those insignia I really don't know.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to start your
20 cross-examination? Could you give us an indication as to how much type
21 you would approximately need.
22 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honour, and I estimate approximately two
23 hours, maybe just over two hours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps it's good to already inform the
25 witness. Witness RM081, today we have another 15 minutes to go. We do
1 not sit in this afternoon. Which means that we'll continue after the
2 weekend, on Monday morning, but Mr. Ivetic now already starts questioning
3 you. Mr. Ivetic, you'll find him to your left, he's standing, and
4 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
5 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
8 Q. Good day, Witness RM081. Today I'll be asking you some questions
9 to better understand your testimony. I propose to begin with some
10 matters that arise out of some prior statements that were disclosed to
11 us. To protect your identity, I therefore propose that we go into
12 private session for these questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 3709-3713 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the curtains be taken up again.
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 There were a few leftovers. First one, 1D313, Madam Registrar,
16 would receive.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Number D72, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D72 is admitted into evidence.
20 THE REGISTRAR: D73, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
23 THE REGISTRAR: D74, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd forgotten to decide on the admission of
25 P306 where I asked about the authorship of that document. It's already a
1 day or two days ago. P306 is admitted into evidence.
2 We adjourn for the day --
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. GROOME: If I could, while we're finalising some of the
6 business of the week. Mr. Vanderpuye sent me a note and he's asking that
7 he neglected to tender 28451, so if Mr. Petrusic is able to address that
8 just by the number, I don't have it on my screen, but I don't know if he
9 has an objection to it, but we would tender that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, no objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You have no objection. Could you assist me in
13 telling what it was, because --
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, it's the full -- Ms. Stewart informs
15 me it's the full packet of the letter and the reply.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 28451 would receive?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Would receive number P316, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P316 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, and then finally Mr. Vanderpuye asked
20 me to inform the Chamber that he has verified that the English transcript
21 for P305 is correct. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That was the unmissing or not missing the -- what
23 was it, the ...
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I believe it was the
25 unannounced -- announced --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Announced, yes. We looked in the e-court and we saw
2 that also in the B/C/S it seems to be correct. So therefore there seems
3 to be no further reason not to admit it. It was marked for
4 identification under number P305. P305 is admitted into evidence. I
5 don't think it was confidential, so it's exhibited as a public exhibit.
6 That's hereby on the record.
7 We adjourn for today, and we'll resume Monday the 8th of October,
8 at 9.30 in the morning in this same -- in this same Courtroom I.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day
11 of October, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.