1 Monday, 5 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I do understand that from both sides there are preliminaries.
11 The first one being that the Defence says it was - at least that's what
11 Page 4510 redacted.
8 break with Mr. Svraka and where you are in a position to already start
9 cross-examining Mr. Svraka.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will proceed as suggested by the Prosecution.
12 Now I do understand that there was request, Ms. Bibles, for
13 protective measures, although we do not know exactly what it was. May I
14 take it that you want to deal with it in private session.
15 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 4512 redacted. Private session.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 4514-4517 redacted. Closed session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Having resolved all these the scheduling issues we discussed
9 before, we'll now move on and hear the testimony of Witness RM802
10 [Realtime transcript read in error "RM082"]. The witness will testify
11 with face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym.
12 I see that seems to be a mistake. It is "RM802" not "082."
13 Witness, before you give evidence, the rules require that you
14 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
15 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: RM802
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.
21 Witness, you'll first be examined by Ms. Bibles. Ms. Bibles is
22 counsel for the Prosecution.
23 Ms. Bibles, please proceed.
24 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Can I ask the court usher to show this witness pseudonym sheet
1 marked 65 ter 28514.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It to remain confidential.
3 MS. BIBLES: To remain confidential, thank you.
4 Examination by Ms. Bibles:
5 Q. Witness, the Court has ordered certain protective measures with
6 respect to you and your evidence today. I will not refer to you by your
7 name but instead by the pseudonym RM802, or I will refer to you as
9 I ask you to look at the pseudonym sheet and direct your
10 attention to where it says "witness name." Without saying your name,
11 could you tell us whether you recognise your name on a sheet?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Directing -- directing your attention to the pseudonym sheet
14 where it says "date of birth." Again, without saying the date, do you
15 recognise your date of birth?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender this sheet into evidence
18 under seal and that was 65 ter 28514.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: This becomes Exhibit P438, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P438 is admitted under seal.
22 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, before I proceed further we'll need to
23 go into private session very briefly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MS. BIBLES:
19 Q. Do you remember signing a witness statement which contains your
21 A. I do remember signing it. Yes, I do remember.
22 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, confidentially I will ask the
23 Court Officer to please display the first page of only the English
24 version of 65 ter 28473.
25 Q. Witness, I ask that you view this page and tell us whether you
1 recognise your signature anywhere on this page?
2 A. I do. I do. At the very end of the page.
3 MS. BIBLES: I'd ask that we go to page 33 of the English
5 Q. And, again, I'll ask you if you recognise a signature on the page
6 when we get there.
7 Do you recognise a signature on this page?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. And whose signature is this?
10 A. It's my signature.
11 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read and review a B/C/S
12 translation of this statement in preparation for your appearance here
14 A. I did have this opportunity of reading it several times; that is
15 to say, my statement in its entirety. And I have no objections.
16 Q. Did you find areas in that review, however, where certain things
17 needed to be clarified or corrected?
18 A. I found a few minor things; basically grammatical mistakes. They
19 can be clarified. That's not complicated at all.
20 Q. Did we go over those issues in detail on Saturday?
21 A. We did.
22 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, we did provide Saturday night an
23 English version of a proofing note with these clarifications to the
25 JUDGE ORIE: And to Chambers staff?
1 MS. BIBLES: We did not. We can do that very quickly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if we're supposed to admit into evidence a
3 corrected statement, then, of course, we should know what the corrections
5 MS. BIBLES: I was going to do that with the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you'll do that with the witness.
7 MS. BIBLES: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you do that, there's no problem.
9 MS. BIBLES: And now if we could go to page 5 in the English
10 version and page 6 in the B/C/S version.
11 Q. I'll ask you to please turn to paragraph 8 of your statement and
12 direct your attention to the fifth sentence, which currently states:
13 "Other commanders signed to the security Department of the corps
14 worked with the other municipalities."
15 Should the sentence properly state: "Other commanders worked
16 with the other municipalities"?
17 A. That is how it should read. That is how it should read.
18 Q. Turning now to page 9 in both English and B/C/S versions in
19 e-court and looking at the statement at paragraph 16, in the third
20 sentence from the bottom. Did you have a concern about the word
22 A. It's not that I was concerned or worried. I mean, I just don't
23 use words like that. I mean, I don't use the term "Chetniks." I use the
24 term "more extreme Serbs." So it would be more appropriate for it to say
25 "extreme Serbs" rather than "Chetniks." Chetniks are something
2 Q. And next on the same page in e-court, looking at paragraph 16 in
3 the first sentence -- I'm sorry, paragraph 17 in the first sentence,
4 there is the name of a major. The statement indicates that you did not
5 know the first name of this individual. Have you since spoken with
6 someone and learned more details about the name here?
7 A. I mentioned him recently in a conversation, but I cannot remember
8 exactly his name. He still lives in Banja Luka. He is there. I do know
9 him but I have problem remembering his name. I have some name of Ceh in
10 my mind, but I'm not sure if that is his last name in actuality.
11 However, I don't think that this has any impact to the content of this
12 paragraph. We can try and find a way to learn his name, if necessary.
13 Q. And moving onto the second sentence in paragraph 17, referring to
14 this person, is it correct instead of saying that he was part of this
15 brigade that it should read he was commander of one battalion of the
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you now, Madam Bibles? You've sort of
18 been saying "sentence" when you refer to a line, so I get lost in it.
19 MS. BIBLES: My apologies, Your Honour, and this was, I'm sorry,
20 the second sentence from the bottom of paragraph 17.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
1 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, now moving to page 13 in both e-court
20 versions and to paragraph 26 in the B/C/S version.
21 Q. Looking at the first sentence in the B/C/S translation, do you
22 see a number that is an error?
23 A. Yes. Instead of number "6" it should read number "1."
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 Q. Also in paragraph 26, the last line from the bottom of this page,
1 where the statement reads: "The platoon commanders ...," was there
2 another word that you wanted to use instead of "platoon"?
3 A. The right word should be "battalions," "commanders of battalions"
4 instead of "platoon commanders."
5 Q. Moving to page 20 in both versions of e-court.
6 In paragraph 45 of the statement, directing your attention to the
7 last sentence of this paragraph. Is there -- in the B/C/S translation,
8 is there an error with respect to which brigade?
9 A. Towards the very end, that is to say in the last sentence, "the
10 command of the 27th." It says "22." But instead of "22" it should read
12 JUDGE ORIE: That -- is that a translation error? It seems to be
13 a translation error rather than -- because in the English, I think it is
14 correct. Therefore, the translation should be corrected.
15 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, for the next two questions we should
16 move into private session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MS. BIBLES:
24 Q. Witness, subject to these clarifications, is your statement
1 A. There was another correction in paragraph 63 concerning a name
2 that should be altered.
3 Q. And I believe that's -- paragraph 63, would be page -- is 27 in
4 e-court. What is the name that should be corrected?
5 A. Instead of "Stojan" it should read "Slobodan." That's towards
6 the end of the second sentence.
7 MS. BIBLES: I think, Your Honours, I believe this just affects
8 the B/C/S translation in the second paragraph 63.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see again it's a translation error rather
10 than -- in the English, Witness, the name Slobodan appears. It has been
11 wrongly translated and will be corrected.
12 MS. BIBLES:
13 Q. Witness, subject to that final clarification, is this statement
15 A. This statement is completely accurate.
16 Q. If I were today to ask you questions about this material, would
17 you provide the same information, in answer?
18 A. Basically, yes.
19 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm
20 that you provided that information in accordance with the truth?
21 A. I provided truthful information and fully, inasmuch as I
22 experienced things, saw things, or heard things.
23 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, at this time I tender 65 ter 28473 into
24 evidence, under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know who to address in the Defence team at
1 this moment.
2 Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.
4 We have no objections.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28473 becomes Exhibit P439, under seal,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P439 is admitted under seal.
9 Ms. Bibles, I suggest since we had a bit of a longer break that
10 we'll continue until quarter past 11.00. And since we may need a bit of
11 a longer break later this morning as well, that may save time.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I tender three associated exhibits into
14 evidence at this time. It will be 65 ter 02943, 02608, 02957, and these
15 can be public exhibits.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
17 Madam Registrar, 02943 would be.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P440, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P440 is admitted into evidence.
20 65 ter 02608.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P441, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 And 65 ter 02957.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P442, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MS. BIBLES: With the Chamber's permission, now that the
2 requirements of 92 ter have been satisfied, I would very briefly
3 summarise the written evidence for the record.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so and keep in mind the protective
5 measures in place.
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, the evidence --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters have not
8 been provided copies of the summary.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You should take care that you read very slowly, and
10 I can imagine -- well, reasons for it, but let's move on slowly.
11 MS. BIBLES: The evidence describes the training of the SDS by
12 the JNA, the removal of non-Serbs from the VRS, the failure to punish VRS
13 soldiers for criminal acts, the implementation of the strategic goals,
14 the relationship between the VRS and paramilitary formations, and various
15 specific combat operations.
16 And that concludes my summary.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles. If you have any further
18 questions for the witness, you may proceed.
19 MS. BIBLES:
20 Q. Witness, now that we have reviewed your written evidence, I'm
21 going to ask a few questions regarding your evidence. Were you trained
22 as to the responsibilities of a military commander with respect to people
23 who have surrendered?
24 A. I don't understand what you mean by -- with reference to people
25 who have surrendered. Can you please repeat the latter part of your
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, perhaps it might be safest to go into
3 private session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 4531-4537 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I spoke to the witness earlier and the
24 witness was -- is in the building and is prepared to proceed at 11 .30,
25 so whatever time the Chamber wishes to resume the hearing.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour,
4 since we are working on scheduling matters now, I had said that we would
5 need to cross-examine this following witness for two and a half hours.
6 However, in view of all the preparations that we've carried out, we don't
7 think that it's going to take more than half an hour.
8 So perhaps it would be good for planning purposes for me to say
9 it at this point in time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this information.
11 We'll take a break for 20 minutes and we'll resume at 25 minutes
12 to 12.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.43 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're ready as well, Ms. Lee.
18 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Good morning.
20 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom. No protective
21 measures, from what I understand.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 MS. LEE: Your Honour, yes, as the witness is being brought in, I
24 would like to refer to you the adjudicated facts that are relevant to
25 this witness's testimony.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. LEE: And they are adjudicated fact 2564.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. LEE: 2577.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MS. LEE: 2578. And also, Your Honour, the witness has made some
7 clarifications during his proofing session, it's clarifications to his
8 statement, and I believe that has been provided to Chambers as well.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We have received, meanwhile, clarification to the
10 witness's statement.
11 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: You do not rely on other adjudicated facts such as
14 2580 or 2576 or 2571 or ...
15 MS. LEE: Specifically to this witness's -- yes -- no,
16 Your Honour, but they are related to this incident.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
18 Good morning.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Svraka --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- I take it. Mr. Svraka, before you give evidence
23 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text will now
24 be handed out to you by the usher. I'd like to -- I would invite you to
25 you make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to get up for that?
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, you can remain seated. I saw you have some --
3 some problems in standing and walking, so ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: ISMET SVRAKA
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Svraka.
9 You'll now be examined by Ms. Lee. Ms. Lee is counsel for the
10 Prosecution and you'll find her to your right.
11 Please proceed.
12 Examination by Ms. Lee:
13 MS. LEE:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Svraka. Could you please state -- could you
15 please state your full name for the record.
16 A. Ismet Svraka.
17 Q. Do you recall providing a statement to the Office of the
18 Prosecutor on or about the 5th of November, 2008?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 28472 on our screen.
21 Q. Mr. Svraka, on the screen before you, can I -- can I ask that you
22 look at the first page of the English version of this statement. It's
23 e-court page 1. Do you recognise your signature on the bottom of the
25 A. I do.
1 MS. LEE: Can I ask that we go to the -- to page 5 in e-court of
2 the English version of the statement.
3 Q. Do you recognise your signature on that page?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Have you had an opportunity to read and review this statement in
6 preparation of your appearance here today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I understand that you made some corrections or clarifications
9 to this statement after reviewing for your preparation?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. LEE: May I please have the B/C/S version of this -- both
12 B/C/S and English version on the screen. And may I have page 2 in
13 e-court for the English version, and page 3 in e-court for the B/C/S
15 Q. Mr. Svraka, I understand that you wanted to make some
16 clarification in relation to paragraph 2 of the witness statement. I
17 understand that the Markale market that you mention here, it's the closed
18 area of Markale market.
19 A. The market was closed in Markale -- I mean, there's always two
20 Markale, and I always say that, Markale I and Markale II. The Markale
21 market, the closed one, and the open-air market Markale.
22 Q. So which one were you staying close to?
23 A. In front of the covered market, Trznica, that market.
24 Q. Now also I understand that you wanted to make corrections to your
25 statement in relation to the Bosnian statement mentioned here, dated --
1 dated 10th of September, 1995.
2 A. I don't know. I mean, I didn't understand the question.
3 Q. I'll repeat the question.
4 Were you shown -- in relation to this paragraph 2 of this
5 statement, the statement says that you were shown a document and
6 bearing -- you were shown a document that was a Bosnian -- a statement
7 taken by Bosnian investigators in September of 1995. Do you recall who
8 interviewed you at the -- for that statement?
9 A. I was in hospital at the time, in September, and I said that -- I
10 mean doctors came, journalists came, visitors came. Everybody wore these
11 coats. And now I think if we're talking signatures, I mean, journalists
12 well, I don't know. Journalists, investigators, whatever. I mean, they
13 signed it for me, instead of me. I did not sign that, I do not recognise
14 that signature as my own if we're talking about signatures now. I mean,
15 it's over here somewhere, isn't it.
16 Q. I'll refer -- you were shown a statement written in Bosnian
17 language today that was dated from September of 1995 where you just
18 mentioned that you were -- the statement was taken while you were in
19 hospital. On that statement, there was signatures that -- that -- that
20 were shown, and my -- you just said that you did not recognise a
21 signature on the page as being your own?
22 A. I mean, now, these signatures that were here before this page,
23 those were my segments. But there is this page where my signature has
24 not been placed. It was some investigator, some journalist, or -- I
25 mean, while I was in hospital, I was still half in shock. I was there
1 for 45 days in hospital in one go. I mean, that was that interval.
2 MS. LEE: Your Honours --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, I'm a bit confused by page 35, line 9,
4 where you say you were shown a statement written in Bosnian language
6 MS. LEE: Yes. This relates to paragraph 2 of
7 Mr. Svraka's statement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Is that the clarification?
9 MS. LEE: Yes, that he does not recognise his signature.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. That's a bit -- I wouldn't consider that
11 a statement.
12 But from what I understand, Mr. Svraka, what you say is though
13 you have stated in 2008, that is, the document that was shown to you
14 today and that was the document you went through one of these days, that
15 where it says that you recognised a signature on a document -- on a
16 statement taken when you were in hospital, that you say, No, that is not
17 my signature, and you do not agree with the content of that statement
18 taken when you were in hospital. Is that correctly understood?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a statement in 2008 at the
20 student centre in Sarajevo. There are these two sky-scrapers there and
21 then I was called by this man from The Hague Prosecutor's Office. I
22 mean, I recognise the statement that I gave to him. But there's this
23 other statement from the hospital that others signed for me. I don't
24 remember that statement. And I did not sign it.
25 That's it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- that's clear to us.
3 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move to, then, I take it paragraph 9.
5 MS. LEE: Yes. Can I have the next page on e-court for both
6 versions of the statement. Could I have actually page 5 in e-court for
7 the Bosnian version of the statement.
8 Q. And, Mr. Svraka, I understand that you also wanted to make one
9 other correction, and this relates to paragraph 5 [sic] of the statement
10 where you make a reference to a nurse holding two bags of blood. My
11 understanding is that you just wanted to clarify that those two bags of
12 blood was not for one patient but -- because there were a lot of injured
13 patients there.
14 A. Yes, somebody wrote that. It's certain that I didn't say that.
15 I saw a nurse with these two bottles of whatever infusion, blood, I don't
16 know. It was taken to one patient but then that would mean there were
17 only these two patient, that we were the only two patients in hospital.
18 Forty persons were killed, eighty were wounded, and you could not get
19 through. I mean, so the mistake has to do with this one single patient.
20 But it's probably two bottles for two patients. Probably there wasn't
21 enough hospital staff there at the time and no one could --
22 Q. Yes, thank you.
23 A. You're welcome.
24 Q. Now -- now that you've made these corrections and clarifications
25 to your statement that's before you, if you were -- if you were asked
1 today the same questions that you were asked when this statement of 2008
2 was taken, would you give the same answer and provide the same
3 information in substance?
4 A. What I said now I will say in another ten years and whenever.
5 What I've said just now, that is.
6 Q. Yes, yes, I understand. But now, the information contained in
7 this statement that you have before you, other than the corrections that
8 you made to this statement in paragraphs 2 and 9, if you were asked the
9 same questions at -- as the questions that you were asked in 2008 when
10 you gave this statement, would you give the same answers and the same
11 information that's contained here today?
12 A. You mean number 9? That's what you're talking about. The only
13 difference is in -- well, probably I didn't say this. Probably. That
14 there were these two bags of blood, or bottles, for one single person. I
15 couldn't have said that.
16 Q. Yes, yes --
17 A. I mean, I was in shock if I said that. But I didn't say that --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, you have reviewed your statement as you
19 gave it in 2008. You have made a few corrections today. Now, that now,
20 as corrected, reflects the entire truth, which means that you'd give the
21 same answers if you were asked the same questions. Is that well
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would give an answer to the
24 effect that the nurse was holding two bottles but intended for two
25 persons. I may have said that, but the mistake occurred when it was
1 noted down.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, I'm not focussing at this moment anymore
3 on this one line about the blood bags. But in general, the statement as
4 you've corrected it now is now fully in accordance with the truth. Is
5 that correctly understood?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And you would, therefore, giving the same answers if
8 all that would be asked again?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would give the same answers as I
10 did now and as I would do at any time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.
13 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. With all these clarifications I
14 would like to tender this witness's statement, dated the 5th of November,
15 2008, bearing 65 ter number 28472, as the next public exhibit.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
17 Therefore, Madam Registrar, the statement would receive ...
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28472 becomes Exhibit P444,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 The Chamber had not yet decided on the request for leave to
22 reply. That leave is granted.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Your Honours, I would now like to briefly summarise the written
1 evidence of Mr. Svraka for the record.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MS. LEE: In 1995, Mr. Svraka lived in Sarajevo and was a
4 bricklayer by profession. He was not a soldier. He performed work
5 obligations, including repair works on buildings and digging of trenches.
6 In the morning of the 28th of August, 1995, Mr. Svraka went into
7 the city centre to give a letter to his sister. At that time, he used
8 back roads in order to stay out of sight of snipers. In the city centre
9 he met two of his friends and colleagues, Mr. Ramo Herceglija and
10 Mr. Ibrahim Hajvaz, and he talked with them in the street in front of the
11 Markale market. On that day Mr. Svraka saw a lot of people in the
12 street, and there were no military activities in that area or any
13 military installations or posts.
14 Mr. Svraka heard a tremendous blast and fell down. He realised
15 that he could not feel his leg anymore. Somebody took him into a car
16 through the back trunk and he was taken to Kosevo hospital. There he
17 received several surgeries, both on the 28th of August, 1995, and
19 He initially stayed in the hospital for 45 days but was also
20 admitted in 1996 for subsequent treatment. As a result of the explosion,
21 Mr. Svraka lost a leg and sustained injuries to his other leg and
22 received stomach injures. Mr. Svraka's two friends, Mr. Herceglija and
23 Mr. Hajvaz, were killed.
24 Your Honours, this concludes the summary of this witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.
1 MS. LEE: Your Honours, there is one exhibit associated to this
2 witness's statement that I would like to tender as the next public
3 exhibit, and it is 65 ter number 18864. They're medical records of
4 Mr. Svraka.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 18864 becomes Exhibit P445,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P445 is admitted into evidence.
10 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have a few questions for
11 this witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MS. LEE: Thank you.
14 Q. Mr. Svraka, in your statement, at paragraph 6 of your statement,
15 you describe that two of your friends and colleagues were killed, and
16 they were Mr. Ramo Herceglija and Mr. Hajvaz. I apologise for
17 mispronouncing their names. Now, can you tell what they were doing at
18 the market; do you know?
19 A. I would just like to warn you about how you pronounce my last
20 name. My last is Svraka, with an S. Sraka can be somebody else.
21 After I had given a letter to my sister in front of the door to
22 the market, I came across my two friends and my two colleagues. One of
23 them, Ramo Herceglija was a labourer from my group. They were seeking to
24 buy some flour because that was the biggest market in town. Ramo had a
25 bicycle. That was his only means of transportation. And he was holding
1 a jar of homemade honey. And somebody was shouting, five deutschemarks,
2 or ten deutschemarks. I don't know whether he was selling it or buying
3 it. We each lighted a cigarette and we were in a triangle metre by
4 metre, not a square but rather like a triangle, the three of us. After
5 we had smoked half of our cigarettes -- because you asked me what they
6 were doing. That is what they were doing. That is where I came across
7 them, and I believe I have answered your question.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, you mention that suddenly you were -- a shell
9 landed beside you. After the shell landed, where were you in relation to
10 the door of the Markale market?
11 A. Walking from Carsija to --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the location.
13 It was inaudible.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the spot where I encountered my
15 friends, they had their backs turned towards the market. The wall, the
16 facade. As I approached them, I asked them how they were. I was facing
17 them. It was only 5 to 7 metres, 8 at the most. I never measured it.
18 But I only heard an explosion and I fell onto the ground. I don't know
19 how. If need be, I can describe it.
20 I first said to myself, Oh, I got hit as well. I put my hands on
21 my head and I realised that my head was not hurt. I had problems
22 breathing. I managed to open my eyes but I couldn't see anything, until
23 they put me into a car. I wanted to move my legs but I couldn't move
24 either. I was hearing everything that was going on? Am I talking too
25 fast? Well, I was hearing all kinds of things, including swear words.
1 There was shouting. There was panic. They threw me into a car and I saw
2 the driver for the first time. Through the car boot, they put me to the
3 passenger seat, and I saw the man who was driving the car. He came
4 around. He -- he is -- sat down and he said, Don't you be afraid of
6 I asked him, Where are we going? Because there were two
7 hospitals. He said we were going to the Kosevo hospital. Until we
8 reached Ali Pasina mosque I was able to look, but on the way to hospital
9 I was going in and out of consciousness. I was half-awake.
10 When we reached the Kosevo hospital, there is a kind of tunnel
11 there, and I was involved in the building of that tunnel because I worked
12 there for 18 years.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. There are four or five buildings that we had built. You're
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Svraka. Mr. Svraka --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we first seek the clarification on the
18 missing part of the -- you were walking that morning from where to where,
19 Mr. Svraka? The interpreters could not clearly hear it.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my house to Markale market. I
21 walked. My house is in the Boljakov Potok commune. My address at the
22 time was Ravi Dzindze [phoen] number 70. That was changed later on.
23 So I walked -- may I speak?
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- well, you've answered my question. So
25 there's no problem anymore.
1 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.
2 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Mr. Svraka, in preparation of your testimony here today, do
4 you -- did you have an opportunity to watch video footages?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. LEE: Your Honours, Ms. Stewart will now bring 65 ter number
7 22427 on our screen.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is it with text or without?
9 MS. LEE: It's without text, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 MS. LEE: So I was wondering if I could show the clips of the
12 video and have it stopped --
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MS. LEE:
16 Q. Mr. Svraka, I will -- I will now play this video for you, and I
17 will later ask some questions.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MS. LEE:
20 Q. Mr. Svraka, do you recognise this place?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 MS. LEE: Your Honours, we stopped at 22 seconds.
23 Q. Can you describe what you see here.
24 A. I can see my back. It's here. I see it now, but at that time
25 after I fell onto the ground I wasn't able to see anything.
1 Q. Can you describe -- can you describe to us where you're sitting
2 on this video. Where are you pointing -- who are you pointing at?
3 A. The video that I saw, this should be me. I am 2 metres away from
4 the door to the market.
5 Q. What are you --
6 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I do have a still video, a still image of
7 this clip that we have taken this morning. It -- it is not available on
8 e-court at the moment. I'm -- Ms. Stewart is just checking whether or
9 not it's available.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think marking on the screen requires it to be
11 available in e-court.
12 MS. LEE: I was going to provide you with -- with still -- with
13 the actual hard copy of the image. But I am now told that it is uploaded
14 onto e-court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you wish to continue to play the video
16 first or would you now change to the still?
17 MS. LEE: I would like to play the video.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LEE: And then I will call up the -- the different stills in
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes.
22 MS. LEE: Thank you.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping video]
25 MS. LEE:
1 Q. What did you say?
2 A. Can you play it back a little and then I can show you.
3 Q. What -- thank you for that. What can you tell us -- what -- what
4 are you going to show us now, Mr. Svraka? What you did want to show us?
5 A. I will show you myself. I saw myself sitting there. If you
6 would rewind it a bit.
7 Q. I could --
8 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I will be putting still images to this
10 JUDGE ORIE: On all relevant --
11 MS. LEE: On all relevant portions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. LEE: I will play --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, later on we will look at specific
15 images, and then you're invited to further explain. At this moment, we
16 are looking to the video as it is running. So we later come to the
17 specific portions.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this video is over six minutes long.
22 However, the footage that you have seen until now are relevant to this
23 witness, so I would like to only show this portion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we stopped at 2 minutes, 18 seconds.
25 Are you going to use other parts at a later stage.
1 MS. LEE: Yes, I will, Your Honour. But it will be used through
2 a different witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although we've not seen the remaining four
4 minutes, Mr. Stojanovic, would there be any problem if this would be
5 tendered at this moment if later used with other witnesses?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, you intend to tender this video.
8 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender as next
9 public exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22427 becomes Exhibit P446,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P446 is admitted into evidence.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 May I please have 65 ter number 28523 on our screens.
17 JUDGE ORIE: On our list, Ms. Lee, we find 28513. Is that what
18 you wanted --
19 MS. LEE: No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- to have on your screen? Or is there a mistake on
21 our list? The three stills are on the Prosecution exhibit list under
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to clarify this.
25 This -- this document contains two stills from the video that was
1 just shown. This video was shown to the witness this morning because
2 this witness was originally scheduled to testify tomorrow, and so we did
3 not have an opportunity to add this --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, 28523 will now be shown being
5 two stills. Is that --
6 MS. LEE: Yes. And I believe they need to be added to our 65 ter
7 exhibit list first and I --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we decide on admission. Now I --
9 Mr. Stojanovic, I think that stills, if the video is already
10 admitted, should not cause great problems.
11 Therefore, leave is granted to add the stills to your 65 ter
13 MS. LEE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MS. LEE: Thank you. If I could have your indulgence --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, just -- if the video is there, then
17 I could not possibly imagine that the still could be objected to.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Lee.
19 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 The 65 ter number contains two pages. The first page is a still
21 image that had been stopped at 22 seconds of the video that we've just
22 watched that became exhibit number 446.
23 May I ask that Mr. Svraka has -- if the smart screen is available
24 for him to make markings on this still image? Is it available?
25 Q. Mr. Svraka, this is an image, a still image, of the video that
1 was just played to you. Do you recognise anyone on this picture?
2 A. I don't recognise anyone here except these two colleagues of
3 mine. Now, I cannot see my face, but I can see the back. I suppose this
4 is me because I had a jacket like this one and I remember that I had my
5 hands on the floor. And as I said, I hadn't known anyone at the time,
6 and, after that, I was thrown onto the ground.
7 Q. Can you circle in red the person that you recognise -- that you
8 believe is appearing as you on the screen.
9 A. With this? Yes.
10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this marked page, could it become the
11 next exhibit, public exhibit.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Still of the video marked by the witness would
13 receive, Madam Registrar?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Number P447, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. LEE: Now, Your Honours, there is another video that I will
18 be playing. However, that video is over four minutes long. However, it
19 might be difficult for the witness to watch the entire video, and so I
20 would like to just play the first 20 seconds and ask him questions for --
21 for -- ask him some foundational questions. And that will be -- this
22 second video will be used with another witness at a later time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You just seek his verification of the --
24 MS. LEE: Of the video.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the video.
1 Please proceed as you suggested.
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Ms. Stewart will now play 65 ter number 22347.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MS. LEE: This video was stopped at 20 seconds.
7 Q. Mr. Svraka, do you recall seeing this video today?
8 A. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And do you recognise the scene of this -- this video, where it
10 was taken?
11 A. You cannot see the building there. If it was shot from this
12 side, it should be on the asphalt outside the market. If you view from
13 Carsija towards Marin Dvor. I don't know if that is correct. All I can
14 do is watch it now; but, at the time, as I said before, I wasn't able to
15 see anything.
16 Q. When you mean at the time, it's at the time when you fell you
17 could not see anything? Just for clarification.
18 A. I couldn't see anything after I fell onto the ground, until I was
19 thrown into a cart.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. That's 1.000 per cent correct.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the witness has identified this place to
24 be the market. He described that it may be a view from one side to
25 another. May I please have this video entered as the next public
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is --
3 Witness, you recognise this as the place of the incident where
4 you were injured; is that correct? At least the -- the area.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen. I see a wounded man
6 here now. I see the man holding him. I see this motorcycle. I see the
7 street. I cannot say whether it's that or something else. I mean, I see
8 what I see. But there is no entrance into the market. I mean, I cannot
9 talk to you about things that I'm not sure about.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witnesses --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see what you see on your
12 screen. And then I did not see anything.
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Witness. You have looked at 20 seconds
14 of video footage. You remember that you saw the footage, the last 20
15 seconds. Did you recognise that as the area of the market where you were
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, while you could see the
18 building, I mean, I recognise that and the pavement and the noise, but
19 now over here, I mean, you just see two persons here on the screen. Now.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what you saw during the last 20 seconds
21 when you said you recognised the building and the pavement, is that a
22 building and a pavement close to the area where you were wounded? So not
23 what you see at this moment but what you saw during the last 20 seconds.
24 If need be, it will be played again to you so as to find out
25 whether you recognise the scenes as close to the area where you were
2 MS. LEE: I -- Your Honours if I may --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.
4 MS. LEE: I will play the entire video at this point if it
5 assists Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's not to assist us. Let's first ask: Is there
7 any dispute about this being the scene of the incident?
8 Mr. Stojanovic.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly speak into the microphone.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It seems to me, Your Honour,
11 that that is not the case, but it also seems to me that at this point in
12 time this witness is not able to say that this is an image of Markale.
13 Perhaps it would be fair for him to view the video again so that he can
14 state his views.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's do this again.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any dispute about what was
17 shown over the last 20 seconds, that that is the Markale market area?
18 No dispute.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you have any specific questions for the
21 witness, we can proceed.
22 MS. LEE: Can he mark it, too. May I tender this as the next
23 public exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22347 becomes Exhibit P448,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P448 is admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed.
4 MS. LEE:
5 Q. Mr. Svraka, can you tell us if you still suffer from your
6 injuries today, the injuries that you sustained from the 28th of August,
8 A. The injuries can be seen without any kind of videos, witnesses,
9 whatever. The left leg was amputated above the knee, mid-thigh. I can
10 also show that two of the toes on my right foot had been amputated. My
11 foot was practically cut in two by a shell because the shell hit my foot
12 and the asphalt and my shoe was blown away. And then also there's my
13 right ankle basically destroyed, and also the main vein. That can be
14 shown, too.
15 For two years my right leg was in such shape that I could only
16 touch the ground with the top of my toes. Also, I had these stomachaches
17 and the doctor said that I should have taken half of my intestines out.
18 And then there is this shrapnel in my head up here. See? They said that
19 there should be no surgery. Then also my stomach. It's no good when I'm
20 full. It's no good when I'm hungry. I sit. I lie down. Then I have
21 problems with bowel movement, begging your pardon.
22 These are lasting consequences. As I said at the disability
23 commission, my leg is never going to grow back. I said it to them.
24 Measure it in centimetres now and if ever it grows longer, well ...
25 All of you can see how disabled I am. Look. The prosthesis is
1 here and two crutches. But you have to go on living.
2 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this completes my examination for this
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee.
5 Mr. Svraka, we'll first take a break and we'll resume at 1.00.
6 Then you'll be cross-examined by the Defence.
7 But could the witness first be escorted out of the courtroom.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 May I, meanwhile, take it, Mr. Groome that there is no other
14 witness available if we would finish today before quarter past 2.00.
15 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is a matter I do want to raise
18 with the Chamber, though, and I think that would take approximately five
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we do that after the evidence of this
21 witness has been concluded.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Svraka, you'll now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, short and clear questions would be best, I take
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Svraka, good afternoon.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I'm sincerely sorry for everything that happened to you as a
8 victim, but I shall try to be as brief as possible, as instructed, and
9 I'll try to keep my questions as short as possible.
10 If I understood you correctly, during those war years, you lived
11 in Boljakov Potok, a part of Sarajevo that is called Boljakov Potok; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how far away that
15 location is from the Markale market and from the centre of town where you
17 A. 4 or 5 or 6 kilometres, roughly.
18 Q. That day you could take that road without noticing any fighting
19 around Sarajevo?
20 A. On that day, as far as I can remember, I heard one shell and that
21 one was fateful for me.
22 Q. My understanding is that at that time you were under work
23 obligation and that just before this happened you were digging trenches
24 at Igman?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how did you get to Igman
2 from the place where you lived? How did you get to Igman where you were
3 digging trenches?
4 A. On foot, through the tunnel, beneath the airport.
5 Q. On Mount Igman, where you were digging trenches, did you notice
6 any artillery pieces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. No, I didn't notice any.
8 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber in which part of Igman this was. Could
9 you tell us more specifically?
10 A. Well, there's some curves up there, whatever they're called.
11 Actually, that's where there was trench-digging and canal-digging, and
12 that's where I was digging a canal that was supposed to take oil down to
13 Hrasnica. The depth was about 30 to 40 centimetres. And it seems to me
14 it was called Osmice, that area up there. We went -- I mean, well,
15 Hrasnica had not been occupied so we went through Hrasnica and then we
16 took the macadam road. I mean, it was called curves, Krivine [phoen] or
17 Kuke [phoen], something like that.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have in
20 e-court the witness's statement, P444. And let us focus on paragraph 6.
21 Q. Mr. Svraka, in view of what you've already said in paragraph 6
22 that is going to be on the screen before you in a second or two, could
23 you please explain the following to the Trial Chamber. The street that
24 leads to the covered market of Markale, is there a tram going down that
25 street? Is there a tram track there?
1 A. The market has two entrances. The first one was with steps, from
2 Vase Miskina street. I think that was the name of the street at the
3 time. And the other entrance is from the tram, left of the tram.
4 Perhaps there is one step or two as you walk from Carsija towards Ilidza.
5 It is the market of Markale.
6 Q. Is there a higher pavement there before you enter the Markale
8 A. 15, 20 centimetres, your regular kind of pavement from the actual
9 asphalt road up to the pavement. It's about 15 centimetres. That's the
11 Q. Would you explain to the Trial Chamber whether at that point in
12 time, in August 1995, there was an awning there of this facility that
13 entered -- that was at the entrance into Markale?
14 A. Perhaps there's two or three steps and then there's this wide
15 door. I mean, we keep confusing the market Pijaca Markale and the
16 market, Trznica Markale. As for Pijaca that is where cured meat was
17 sold, I think, and diary products. I mean, all sorts of things. And at
18 Markale, Pijaca that's where vegetables and fruit was sold.
19 Q. Let us not create any confusion there because of this
20 terminology. Let us call it Trznica.
21 A. Trznica, Markale, that's what it's called.
22 Q. And that is where you were wounded, in front of that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So this location, did it have an awning at the entrance or was
25 there a ledger there or something?
1 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
2 Q. So please let us look at paragraph 6 to jog your memory. This is
3 what you say: That together with two of your colleagues, Ramo and
4 Ibrahim, you were standing in the street, and they had their backs turned
5 to the building. And you say that you were facing them?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When you say that the two of them had their backs turned to the
8 building, which building are you referring to specifically?
9 A. Trznica. In front of the entrance there.
10 Q. So we will agree that you were facing the entrance into Trznica,
11 the market?
12 A. I was facing my friends, my two friends, and we were talking and
13 smoking. And the entrance was 2 metres away from me, to the right. The
14 entrance into the market Trznica.
15 Q. And you were facing that entrance?
16 A. I was facing the two of them. And the entrance was like there,
17 where this young lady. That was the distance. I was looking at them and
18 talking to them. And the entrance was 2 metres away. Or was it a metre
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 Q. Now, could you please look at paragraph 7 of your statement
23 together with me. This is what you say:
24 "I did not hear the approach of the shell and I did not hear the
25 firing of the mortar, but after living through three years of war by
1 then, it was known that you do not hear the shell when it hits close to
2 you. When one is passing overhead or falling short or to the side of
3 you, then you can hear it. But not when it hits right beside you."
4 Please, could you explain to the Trial Chamber that you did not
5 hear any sound beforehand?
6 A. None. Just the detonation.
7 Q. This detonation was behind your back.
8 A. On the right-hand side, 7 metres away. Again, towards Ilidza
9 from Carsija. 7, 8, 5 metres. I've never measured it to this day, but
10 to this day the location is marked, and these places where people were
11 killed by shells are called the Sarajevo Roses and are marked.
12 Q. I'm going to try to explain things at least for myself, if not
13 for others once again. So the shell hit to your right. Am I correct in
14 saying that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the distance was, according to your estimate today, 7 to 10
17 metres from you.
18 A. Approximately.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, unless there's a translation issue,
20 page 58, line 19:
21 "At the right-hand side, 7 metres away. Again, towards Ilidza
22 from Carsija. 7, 8, 5 metres. I've never measured it to this day."
23 And then to put to the witness that it was 7 to 10 metres seems
24 to ignore what he just told you.
25 Please proceed, and rephrase your question.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour. I think
2 that we do have a problem with the interpretation. But I don't have any
3 problem with that.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you now: To the best of your ability, what is
5 your assessment today? How far away was it from you.
6 A. 5 to 7 metres. I've already told you. I passed there hundreds
7 of times but usually by car or tram. Usually somebody brings me to the
8 bus or tram. I hitch-hike from home because I'm fed up with lying there
9 and sitting, and I go to the centre of town to Carsija, and I've never
10 passed by without looking at this place where I fell victim. You can
11 measure that tomorrow. You can send someone to measure it tomorrow.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 Q. This is what I'd like to ask you now. You spoke to the
15 Prosecutor about your statement that was allegedly taken from you when
16 you were in hospital. Do you remember that part of your testimony?
17 A. Doctors, journalists came to the hospital. People came to visit.
18 They all had coats. I remember what I signed, but there are other
19 people's signatures as well and I am not acknowledging this.
20 Q. Let us look at this together.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D416 in e-court,
23 Q. And while we're waiting for it, Mr. Svraka, I'm going to tell you
24 that this is a statement of 10th September 1995, and I only have a couple
25 of questions with regard to it.
1 So here it says that on the 10th of September, 1995, Amir Husic
2 and Faris Vehabovic gave statements. Do these names mean anything to
4 A. No, I don't remember them at all.
5 Q. Thank you. The details provided in this statement about you, is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes. But this is not my signature.
8 Q. Is the content of the statement correct?
9 A. Well, some things are correct; some are not. For example, it
10 says I met my workmate Ramo Herceglija and the name of Ibrahim Hajvaz is
11 not mentioned at all. If I mentioned one, I should have mentioned both
12 of them. I didn't try to get up. I wasn't able to. I didn't notice
13 anything. I felt no pain. I didn't see anything.
14 Q. Is there anything in this statement that is incorrect?
15 A. There's lots of it. Do you want me to read it and then I'll tell
16 what you is incorrect?
17 Q. I'd rather not have you do that if you had an opportunity to read
18 it this morning.
19 A. Well, there are some correct and there are some incorrect things.
20 I did not put a signature here. He should have given it to me to sign it
21 but I didn't and I'm telling the truth.
22 Q. Let me just ask you this: Do you agree that that was at around
23 11th of -- at 11.00 on that date, 28th of August 1995?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, can we have in e-court
1 document P3, page 41.
2 Your Honours, for the sake of identification, that's a collection
3 of photographs and portions of the geographical map of the city of
4 Sarajevo. So let us look at page 41.
5 Q. Mr. Svraka, I'll try and ask you for your assistance. If you can
6 find your bearings in this image, Mula Mustafa Baseskije Street, can you
7 see it?
8 A. I can't find Carsija here. And there is Stari Grad to the right
9 and there's the city hall. I'm not an engineer.
10 Q. In this part of the image, can you recognise the place where the
11 Markale market was with respect to the Ferhadija Street?
12 A. Well, I have to ask you if this is the tram stop or, rather, the
13 tram track. I -- I cannot orientate myself properly. I know Carsija,
14 and the first stop is the cathedral.
15 Q. All right. If you cannot find your bearings, then I'm not going
16 to pursue this matter.
17 A. Here is Ferhadija.
18 Q. Do you see this building? Does the name of the street
19 Dzentica Cikman [phoen] mean anything to you?
20 A. No, I was not familiar with it.
21 Q. All right.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to
23 use this document with this witness. I think this is the Vasinska
25 Q. All right. Let me ask you only a couple of more questions. You
1 cannot tell us any more details about the weapon that fired this shell;
2 is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I'm not familiar with that kind of weapon. All I am
4 familiar with was the rifle that the JNA used to use and the automatic
5 rifle called Tomos [phoen] because I served on the border.
6 Q. Well, you don't know if that was a shell or a mine; is that
8 A. As far as I know, a mine leaves a trace, whereas a shell --
9 because I had an exercise after the army in Rudo, and I was moving the
10 shells for ten days as a reservist, and I know how big a shell is. Some
11 of them weigh 20 or 30 kilograms, and when a shell impacts on the soil,
12 it leaves a trace in the shape of a rose and there are different shells.
13 There are tank shells and other kinds. That is what I learned when I
14 served in the army in 1964 or 1965.
15 Q. Therefore, in view of the experience that you have, whether that
16 was a mine or a shell [as interpreted]?
17 A. Probably a shell. A mine should have been planted and then
18 somebody should step on it and set it off, if I'm not wrong.
19 Q. Can you tell me whether you had an opportunity to see from which
20 direction this shell could have come?
21 A. In the direction of the street. Because this market building,
22 and if you have a tram tracks and you have buildings on both sides that
23 are 10, 15, 20 metres high, I don't know. If you throw a stone or a
24 rock, it will sooner fall onto the roof rather than onto the street. But
25 I think that from Ilidza and Carsija, since it was an open road, and I
1 don't know what other places there are towards Carsija, such as Pale,
2 Romanija, and other locations. And I don't know where the shell came
3 from. I did not fire it.
4 Q. And with your permission, can we take a look again at document
5 P3. Only we need page 40 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there's no problem in using P3. At
7 the same time, I would urge you to ask questions to the witness on
8 matters he can tell us something about.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.
11 That is exactly why I wanted to look at page 42. Maybe the witness can
12 be of assistance, although he wasn't of much help when we viewed page 41.
13 Can we please enlarge the left middle part of this photograph.
14 Q. Mr. Svraka, can you see the cathedral here in the right middle
15 section of this photograph?
16 A. It is before Markale I. Are you referring to the church, or are
17 you referring to the tram stop called the cathedral? Because there is a
18 church there and we can see G8, Markale I, and G18, Markale II. And this
19 is how this Markale II incident is treated and it's in front of the
20 indoor market.
21 Q. So this photograph is of no help to you to orientate yourself?
22 A. Well, I don't know. The cathedral is a building. There is a
23 church there and there is a tram stop there. That's the first stop on
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm not going to use this photograph any
1 longer. Now one more question relating to your last answer in which you
2 said that you cannot say for certain from which direction the shell had
4 A. No, I cannot.
5 Q. However, when you look at the direction of how this street runs,
6 was the street where you were --
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could we first hear the question before
8 you --
9 Witness, do not answer the question yet.
10 Could you please finish your question, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. I'm asking you if the street where you were when the shell fell,
13 was it running north/south or east/west? How good are you in knowing
14 your cardinal points?
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] One second. One second,
17 Ms. Lee.
18 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I haven't -- I mean, I haven't objected
19 before in this line of questioning, but I do now. This witness has
20 already answered several times that he did not know where the shell was
21 coming from. Having him speculate is not going to assist Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the only question at this moment is whether
23 the street was running north/south or east/west. That was finally the
24 question, although you may have expected anything else.
25 Witness, can you tell us that street that you were in, whether
1 that was running north/south or east/west? If you don't know, tell us.
2 If you do know, please tell us as well.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. President, I don't know
4 where east is or where west is. I don't know. I know in Sarajevo where
5 the sun rises.
6 Now in direction of Carsija-Ilidza, one can --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness there is no problem. You say, I don't where
8 east/east, north/south is. That answers the question.
9 Mr. Stojanovic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say from this place where
11 I am sitting now.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. On your way to the place where you were hit, did you
14 arrive from Ilidza or from Bascarsija?
15 A. I arrived to Markale market from Boljakov Potok. I walked down
16 Rajlovac Kaceska [phoen] Street past the tobacco factory. Everybody
17 knows where that is. Then passed the bus stop and the tram stop and
18 Marsal Tito barracks, and finally I reached the market. I met my sister
19 there. We finished our business --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me intervene at this moment. Could the parties
21 agree on the locations mentioned by the witness to be west of the town
23 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't know which location
24 you mentioned.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the ones he mentioned, Boljakov Potok, tobacco
1 factory, Marsal Tito barracks. Is there any dispute about the Marsal
2 Tito barracks being west from Stari Grad, which is the old town centre?
3 MS. LEE: Being west? The Tito Marsal -- no. No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. So apparently he passed through that. I'm a
5 bit surprised that the parties could not agree on Boljakov Potok, whether
6 that's east or west or where it is at all. It seems to be one of the
7 simplest things to do, to agree on that. The parties are invited to do
8 that. The witness has said that he from -- coming from house, going into
9 the direction of the Markale market, he passed Marsal Tito barracks which
10 is west from the old town.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On your way to the place where you were hit, did you at any point
14 in time or place meet any TV crews or TV vans?
15 A. I can say that I didn't. 100 percent I didn't.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. You're welcome.
18 Q. And I'm going to finish with this question. Whilst you were
19 hospitalised at Kosevo, did you have an opportunity to notice that the
20 bombing of -- that the aerial bombing of the positions around Sarajevo
21 had started?
22 A. Yes. On the third day I heard nurses talking about it and they
23 were saying, Well, they have started to strike them. They were talking
24 about Jahorinski Potok and the weekend cottages, Potok, Jahorina,
25 Gorazde. I know these places because I used to work there as a builder.
1 Q. The nurse said they started striking them. Whom started striking
3 A. NATO was bombing the Serbs, the Serbian army. That's what I
5 MS. LEE: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.
7 MS. LEE: I'm sorry, the question asks -- the question is the
8 nurse said they started to strike them. Who are they talking about?
9 This witness would not know who the nurse is talking about. This is a
10 statement of the nurses'.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know yet. Is there about -- NATO bombing,
12 aerial strikes, is that something for which this witness is best placed
13 to provide evidence, or is it a matter when NATO started bombing, if
14 there was any such bombing, when it started. Isn't that a matter that is
15 well documented and could be easily agreed upon, I would say.
16 MS. LEE: My --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic? Or do you think that this witness,
18 hearsay through a nurse, would be the best source of evidence?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point in time,
20 Your Honour, I have this witness here. I tried to get this from the
21 witness in view of his statement. And I'm sure that there will be other
22 witnesses that will speak about that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 Ms. Lee, I think we should leave it to that at this moment.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more area briefly,
2 Your Honours.
3 Q. Mr. Svraka, my understanding was that during one of these
4 operations the doctors warned you that in the abdominal area you have a
5 shrapnel that was still there; is that correct?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please re-start your answer
8 because the interpreters could not hear you.
9 So the question was whether they warned you that in the abdominal
10 area there was still shrapnel. Is that correct. That was the question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, just a moment, please. It was
12 my leg that was operated on. One was cut off and the other one was
13 stitched up. Mended. And when I woke up in this room that used to be
14 called intensive care, and the first time they asked me, Grandpa, where
15 you feel pain? I mean, I was a grandfather even then. And I said it's
16 my stomach. Judges, Your Honours, it was my stomach that was painful,
17 and they touched me and they said, Has to be operated on.
18 Had I not said that I felt pain in my stomach I would have died,
19 not because of the leg but because of the stomach. I was in a coma or
20 sleeping or whatever it was during two days. I mean, I don't even know
21 when I woke up. It's not that I kept a calendar or something, and had I
22 not said that I had a stomachache I would have died on account of my
23 stomach. But anyway, when I woke up, Dr. Milosevic had performed an
24 operation on me. He was in Sarajevo.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear
2 Mr. Stojanovic. He is not speaking into his microphone.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters cannot hear you if
4 you do not talk into the microphone. You're turning it even further away
5 from you, but ...
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand. I'm sorry. I
8 apologise to the interpreters.
9 Q. Now this is what I'd like to ask you. After this operation, did
10 you keep the shrapnel that the doctors took out?
11 A. I kept it for years at home. It was as big as a cube of sugar,
12 and I have my letters of discharge of all the operations --
13 Q. But my point was that you do not have it any longer.
14 A. I don't have it in my stomach anymore. I don't have it at home
16 Q. Thank you. And I'm sorry if this was too much of a burden for
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes then your cross-examination.
20 Ms. Lee, is there any need to ask further questions in
22 MS. LEE: I just wanted to make one -- have this witness make one
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope it's on a relevant matter.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
2 Re-examination by Ms. Lee:
3 Q. Mr. Svraka, during cross-examination, you were asked:
4 "Can you tell me whether you had an opportunity to see from which
5 direction this shell could have come?"
6 And your answer was:
7 "In the direction of the street, because this market building,
8 and if you have a tram tracks and you have buildings on both sides that
9 are 10, 15, 20 metres high, I don't know."
10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I'm referring to transcript, page 63, and
11 line 5 was the question and line 7 it begins -- is where Mr. Svraka has
12 given his answer.
13 My question to you is: In your examination-in-chief, you said
14 that you did not hear or see any shell before -- I mean, you did not see
15 where -- you did not hear the shell come from anywhere and you did not
16 see the shell. In this question when you were asked when you had the
17 opportunity to see from which direction this shell could have come, and
18 you say direction [indiscernible] -- on that day, did you actually see
19 the shell come before it landed 5 to 7 metres?
20 A. I didn't see it. I just heard it. No one can see a shell in the
21 air. I heard it explode and hit me. I mean, almost killed me. Maybe it
22 would have been better had it killed me. I heard the explosion of a
23 shell and where it came from and who threw it, I don't know.
24 MS. LEE: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
1 Mr. Svraka --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- since the Chamber has no further questions for
4 you, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for
5 coming a long way to The Hague, and we're fully aware that travelling is
6 certainly not easy for you in your present physical condition.
7 Therefore, thank you very much, both for coming and for having answered
8 the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
9 wish you a safe return home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist Mr. Svraka in leaving the
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, you indicated that you wanted to raise a
15 matter which would take you five minutes.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it occurs to me that there's another
17 way that the Chamber might be able to make some productive use of this
19 Today the Prosecution has tendered two videos of the Markale --
20 of the incident, P446 and P448. We did not show this witness the entire
21 video in court in an effort to be sensitive to the witness with respect
22 to what is graphic and difficult to watch video.
23 Your Honour, with respect to P446, the Prosecution will be
24 playing the entirety of that tape later this week with RM110, an
25 investigator. However, with respect to P448, it is -- there is no
1 witness at the present for which the Prosecution intends to play the
2 entirety of that tape. It is four to six minutes long, and I wonder
3 whether that -- if the Chamber wishes, we would be prepared to play that
4 for the Chamber now so we could view that video.
5 And I do still have my five-minute submission.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any objections to P448 to be played
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour. I
10 mean, in order to get a clear idea in terms of what the witness had been
11 speaking about.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Mr. Groome, the Chamber grants leave to play P448 in its entirety
14 at this moment.
15 MR. GROOME: Before I ask Ms. Stewart to do it, I would note that
16 although the tape does contain some ambient sound, the Prosecution does
17 not rely on anything that is said on the tape. And with that, I would
18 ask Ms. Stewart to please play the tape.
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, that concludes the playing of P448. In
23 addition to that, Your Honour, there are two other matters that first can
24 be dealt with in open session, and the second I will ask that we go into
25 private session.
1 Your Honours, last Monday on 29 October the Prosecution omitted
2 to tender one associated exhibit for the witness Grgo Stojic, a witness
3 with no protective measures. At this stage I would like to tender that
4 exhibit now. It is 65 ter 06374. It is a report from a health centre in
5 Sanski Most dated the 9th of November, 1992. It contains a description
6 of the nine bodies of the named victims in the indictment, their
7 position, clothes they were wearing, and entry/exit wounds, and of course
8 I understand if my colleagues on the Defence would seek to respond to
9 this tomorrow morning, but I did want to correct that omission.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any response yet?
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would appreciate a chance to review
12 the document, see which one it is. I believe this one might even have
13 been tendered as a Defence exhibit, but I'm not certain at this point in
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will then hear from you on 65 ter 06374.
16 The --
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of my colleagues tells me that it was used
19 by the Defence but not tendered by you. Well, if you used it, would
20 there be any objection against having --
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection, then. That's why I thought it was the
22 document. So no objection to that document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Registrar, 65 ter 06374, would
24 receive number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Number P449, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P449 is admitted into evidence.
2 The second matter you'd like to raise in private session,
3 Mr. Groome?
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 4584-4585 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn for the day, and we will resume
20 tomorrow, the 6th of November, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
21 courtroom, III.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.05 p.m.,
23 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of November,
24 2012, at 9.30 a.m.