1 Friday, 9 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 If there are no preliminaries, the witness can be escorted into
11 the courtroom.
12 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has not yet decided on the admission of
13 some of the Philipps -- the report and the charts and the explanatory
14 notes. Are there objections? Let me take it one by one P451, that is
15 the two charts which are in one document, one for 1992, 1994.
16 MR. LUKIC: We would have the same objections we have in our
17 written submissions, Your Honour, from before.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would that be true for the explanatory
19 notes P452 and P453 as well?
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And then also for the alphabetical lists, the P454
22 and P455?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. The Chamber will decide on the
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sivac. Mr. Sivac, before we
3 continue, I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the
4 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that
5 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 Mr. Shin, if you're ready, you may proceed.
7 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]
11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. I would like to draw your attention to a particular topic I'll
14 ask you some questions about. Was there a time when about 12 buses of
15 persons arrived at Omarska camp while you were detained there?
16 A. Yes. Sometime after the 20th of July we were in a room with
17 Mujo Murha and there was a sound coming from nearby, the sound of bus
18 engines. Shortly afterwards, we heard guards shouting, we heard noise.
19 The guards were taking out of the buses that had arrived at Omarska and
20 only later would we learn that the buses were packed with the inhabitants
21 of the village of Brdo on the left bank of the Sana River, who had been
22 picked up in those villages when the ethnic cleansing began there.
23 Q. Could you explain how it is that you learned that these persons
24 were from Brdo?
25 A. Later at the Omarska camp I came across a number of my
1 acquaintances from Brdo who arrived in those buses to Omarska.
2 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those persons whom you
3 recognised in Omarska camp from Brdo?
4 A. Yes, and I talked to them. That was Vahid Rizvanovic, a
5 colleague of mine who worked for the security service;
6 Mehmed Crljenkovic, aka Mesa, and there were a few other people from Brdo
7 who had survived the arrival to the camp Omarska.
8 Q. What happened to those persons from Brdo who arrived in Omarska
10 A. They were taken out in groups and lined up against a wall
11 precisely in the room where we were. Then we heard guards shouting, they
12 cocked their weapons, we heard horrible thumps of something being thrown
13 against the wall, we heard cries, screams, cries for help, and something
14 that made it very clear to us was that on arrival to the Omarska camp
15 they had to pass through this reception procedure, which means, in other
16 words, that they had to be beaten up properly, unfortunately. Some of
17 those people did not survive that, that beating up. They succumbed
18 immediately on the spot next to the wall. Later on, we called this wall
19 the wailing and screaming wall.
20 Q. Mr. Sivac, in the translation your answer has it that these
21 persons were taken out in groups and lined against a wall -- there's a
22 word unclear. Lined up against a wall in the room where we were. Were
23 these persons lined up in the room that you were or were they somewhere
24 else? And if somewhere else, could you explain exactly where they were?
25 A. Well, I was in the room with Burho and Mujo and that wall was the
1 outer wall of the room where we were. It was located on the north side
2 and the wall was very thin. At the upper level of this room were small
3 windows through which we received air because it was horribly hot inside
4 and there was a huge crowd of people. Before that, the guards allowed us
5 to open those windows in order to have as much air as possible.
6 Q. You explained that some of these persons succumbed immediately on
7 the spot next to the wall. Did you see any bodies at any point from
8 these persons?
9 A. Later, the following day, when we were going from the tarmac to
10 answer the call of nature, the guards took us past the white house to do
11 it there. And then next to the white house we saw a rather large group
12 of dead bodies.
13 Q. Mr. Sivac, I would now like to move to another topic relating to
14 certain names of persons who may have been in Omarska.
15 MR. SHIN: May I ask the Court Officer, please, to place 65 ter
16 28532 on the screen. If possible for the witness could we focus on the
17 B/C/S translation, please.
18 Q. Mr. Sivac, are you able to read that page on your screen? If you
19 could just indicate yes or no and I'll ask you a question.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recall that I asked you about a list of certain names
22 during preparation for your testimony here? If you could just indicate
23 yes or no whether you recall that, please.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you please take a moment to review the information next to
1 the names and then indicate where the information, although brief, is
3 A. Yes, the information is accurate.
4 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender this --
5 tender into evidence 65 ter 28532.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28532 becomes Exhibit P488,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. SHIN: May I ask the Court Officer to place 65 ter 28533 on
11 the screen, please.
12 Q. Mr. Sivac, could you please take a moment to review this list of
13 names and -- let me ask you first: Do you recall that we discussed these
14 names during the preparation for your testimony here?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please take a moment to review the information next to
17 these names and then indicate whether the information - again, although
18 it is brief - whether that information is accurate.
19 A. Yes. Only the first name on the list reads Ljubija Solaja. I
20 think that Miroslav -- oh, now I see that it has been corrected. He was
21 originally from Ljubija and his name is written here as Ljubija Solaja,
22 but underneath that we see his correct name which is Miroslav Solaja.
23 Q. Mr. Sivac, would you like any more time to review the brief
24 information placed next to the names or are you able to say that it is
25 otherwise accurate?
1 A. Yes, completely accurate.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I would also tender into evidence
3 65 ter 28533.
4 JUDGE ORIE: There are no objections, but I have one question.
5 If we read a name and the comment is "probably typo for Pehadzic," then
6 we see that "Alija Behadzic" should be "Pehadzic," but what then? I
7 mean, what's then the probative value? Is that a -- was that person in
8 Omarska? Was that person killed? Was that person wounded? Was that a
9 guard at Omarska? What we -- I do not understand that part of your list.
10 For the others I do understand, but ...
11 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, if I may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. SHIN: The name Alija Pehadzic is referred to elsewhere and I
14 will be in a position to provide that information as necessary.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So that is then a correction to the name Behadzic
16 found elsewhere.
17 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there are no objections, Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28533 becomes Exhibit P489 [Realtime
20 transcript read in error "P589"], Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I think that brings me to a total of
23 half an hour and that completes my examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
25 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour. Just give me half a minute
2 to organise myself.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Sivac, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is
5 counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. May we begin?
10 A. Yes, we may.
11 Q. We haven't seen each other for ten years.
12 A. Time flies.
13 Q. Yes. Now I'm going to go back to the list, or rather, the two
14 lists shown to you by the OTP this morning, and these are the lists of
15 people whom you identified as being in Omarska. The document numbers are
16 28532 and 28533, just to remind you. Now, is it true that you did not
17 see the killing of those people, you only heard of that; is that correct?
18 A. I'm going to wait a little after your question for the
19 interpretation to finish and then I'll start.
20 No, Mr. Lukic --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Just for those who read the transcript later, it is
22 P588 and P589, Mr. Lukic.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour 4, if I may just -- it's P488 and
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then it appears wrongly on the transcript. 488 is
1 on page 5, line 6; and then on page 6, line 18, it says "P489" but that
2 apparently is a -- "589" that apparently is a mistake. 65 ter 28533 has
3 been assigned P489 and is admitted under that number.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Sivac, please go ahead.
7 A. No, Mr. Lukic. The executioners did not allow anyone to watch
8 while they were killing people.
9 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor's office tendered your statement and
10 portions of the transcript; however, some portions that we would like to
11 ask you about are not included therein. So let us go through that.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly seek assistance with
13 regard -- with 65 ter number of the witness statement which is 28478, but
14 unfortunately I haven't written down the P number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, now I have it. It's P480.
17 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours. I think that takes care of
18 my --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Earlier you said that Hasan Talundzic was the first Muslim
22 appointed to the post of the SUP chief in Prijedor. Do you remember that
23 testimony of yours?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Do you recall who Sead Besic was?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Is it correct that he was at the head of the Prijedor SUP before
5 Mr. Talundzic and that he was a Muslim?
6 A. No, Mr. Lukic. He only had a Muslim name but he declared himself
7 a Yugoslav. According to the 1974 constitution, he was entitled to do
9 Q. The fact is that he was at the head of the Prijedor SUP after
10 Rajko Zigic left that post; is that correct?
11 A. After Rajko Zizic passed away he led the SUP for a brief period
12 of time, and then after the first democratic election that post was
13 filled by the party SDA, the Party of Democratic Action, and they
14 appointed Hasan Talundzic.
15 Q. Is it also true that Mr. Sead Besic was promoted and referred to
16 the position of the CSB Banja Luka chief?
17 A. I don't know if he was promoted to a higher rank, but I do know
18 that he was transferred to work at the State Security Service in
19 Banja Luka.
20 Q. You were a member of the League of Communists while you were
21 working at the SUP just like everybody else; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. After multi-party elections, were you a member of any other
25 A. No, I wasn't, Mr. Lukic.
1 Q. Now something relating to the geography of Prijedor. Stari Grad,
2 the old town, was between 800 and 1.000 metres away from the place of
3 your residence; is that correct?
4 A. That was my initial impression, but I think the distance is
5 shorter. Now when I go to visit these places, I often realise that it's
6 much shorter.
7 Q. How shorter approximately, can you tell us?
8 A. Between 300 and 500 metres. There is the beginning of the
9 Stari Grad neighbourhood.
10 Q. Is it correct that on the day of attack on Prijedor the 30th of
11 May you were in Stari Grad?
12 A. Mr. Lukic, that was not an attack on Prijedor. That was an
13 attempt to liberate Prijedor and to install into power the legally
14 elected representatives of those authorities. On that morning I was in
15 my flat and I stayed there the whole time.
16 Q. You were first arrested on the 12th of May, 1992, by members of
17 the Prijedor SUP; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. They took you to the SUP building, handed over to Ranko Mijic,
20 the chief of the criminal investigation police?
21 A. Yes, to the chief of the criminal investigation service,
22 Ranko Mijic.
23 Q. When you were released from Omarska you talked with
24 Milos Jankovic; is that correct?
25 A. You mean when I was first released or do you mean after my final
2 Q. Did you talk with Milos Jankovic on the 10th of June, which means
3 that would be after your first release?
4 A. Well, I don't remember if it was after the first release, but I
5 don't think it was. I think that I spoke with Milos Jankovic much, much
6 later, in September or October 1992, just before I left Prijedor.
7 Q. Then that would have to be corrected. That means after your
8 second release?
9 A. As far as I can remember, that is the case.
10 Q. Do you recall that you asked him who signed your arrest warrant?
11 A. Yes, I asked him that, among other things.
12 Q. Is it correct that he told you that anyone from the SUP could
13 have signed that warrant?
14 A. More or less that was his answer.
15 Q. Is it true that you said that most often the orders were signed
16 by the Crisis Staff and people like Simo Drljaca, Dule Jankovic, and
17 Rajko Mijic?
18 A. Well, that was what Milos Jankovic told me.
19 Q. Simo Drljaca, Dure Jankovic, and Ranko Mijic were all members of
20 the Prijedor SUP; correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you try to always guide the Judges to the
23 relevant pages of P480 so that we are able -- for example, if you say
24 "should this be corrected," so that we know exactly what is there to be
1 MR. LUKIC: The witness just corrected me that it was after his
2 second release, not after his first release.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and -- but you are talking about the statement.
4 Since you did not guide us to where it is in the statement, we do not
5 know what is reflected in the statement immediately and --
6 MR. LUKIC: If we can see 1D408 on our screens and Your Honours
7 would see that line of questions I just went through.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 1D40 --
9 MR. LUKIC: -- 8.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- or P480.
11 MR. LUKIC: Or we can see P --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We work --
13 MR. LUKIC: -- 480 --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
15 MR. LUKIC: At page 29.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well I have it on my screen but -- that's no
17 problem, but I would like to know which page.
18 MR. LUKIC: It's page 29.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 29.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the original page number, do you have that?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that should be --
22 MR. LUKIC: The original page number is transcript number 6617,
23 lines 5 to 20.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's the redacted portion?
25 MR. LUKIC: Exactly, that's why I have to use 1D408.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that.
2 MR. LUKIC: From this one we need page 67, lines 5 to 20.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Shin.
4 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if it's of assistance to my counsel,
5 this refers to an arrest on the 10th of June, so perhaps that may be
6 useful to clarify any confusion.
7 MR. LUKIC: I think that we just did it with the witness. He
8 guided us that this conversation took place after his second release. My
9 question was in relation to the first release.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 [Interpretation] Could we go to the next page in the document
13 which is on the screen, and that is 1D480 --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 408.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to have a look at lines
16 14 through 18. I'll read it out in English so that you can receive
17 proper interpretation.
18 The question was this:
19 [In English] "Was it publicly announced who was the leadership of
20 the municipality at that time? Was that ever discussed on the radio? Or
21 who was giving orders for the events in Prijedor?"
22 And your answer at line 17, I quote:
23 "All these things happened as a result of the directives issued
24 by the Crisis Staff."
25 [Interpretation] My question is whether you accept this part of
1 your testimony in view of the assessment you had made?
2 A. Mr. Lukic, what period does this refer to, this question? Or is
3 this merely an assertion of yours? I can expand if you wish.
4 Q. I'll guide you. As of the moment when the Crisis Staff was
5 established, which was sometime after the 20th or 22nd of April when the
6 Prijedor municipality Crisis Staff was established.
7 A. Yes, that was the official date, but the Crisis Staff had existed
8 before. It's just that they worked covertly. They were just waiting for
9 the right moment.
10 Q. But while they were working covertly, they were not making public
11 announcements I presume. So we are talking about an announcement which
12 is after the 20th of April.
13 A. Yes. When such announcements or ultimatums were cunningly signed
14 by the information secretariat attached to the newly established Serb
15 municipality of Prijedor.
16 Q. Do you accept this part of your testimony, the part I just read
18 A. Yes. Crisis Staffs issued ultimatums and announcements.
19 Q. [In English] "All these things happened as a result of the
20 directives issued by the Crisis Staff."
21 [Interpretation] There was discussion about orders concerning the
22 events in Prijedor?
23 A. Yes, that's crystal clear. I can repeat. All those directives
24 and instructions issued after the take-over were aimed at the inhabitants
25 of Prijedor municipality. First curfew was introduced; second, all media
1 was put under control, that is to say Radio Prijedor and the "Kozarski
2 Vijesnik" newspaper; thirdly, there was a general call-up for the Serbian
3 population; fourthly, all non-Serbs had to hand-over their weapons to the
4 barracks in Urije, those who were supposed to arrive in convoys bringing
5 in weapons were supposed to post white flags; fifthly, before the 20th of
6 May all economic activity was to cease and workers allowed to go home.
7 All schools and kindergartens had to stop working before the 20th of May.
8 Anyone of sound mind in Prijedor could realise what was in store.
9 Q. We haven't established whether you confirm what you had stated
10 earlier, which was that it all came as part of directives and
11 instructions of the Crisis Staff?
12 A. Yes, I had an informant of mine, a source, and I know that the
13 first time the name "Crisis Staff" appeared officially in documents
14 around the 12th or the 13th of May. All those ultimatums which were
15 basically drafted by the Crisis Staff were issued together with the
16 information secretariat. It was a very cunning procedure.
17 Q. At that time immediately before the conflict, but after the war
18 had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were frequent skirmishes and a
19 lot of propaganda; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was your observation? Did people become distrustful of one
23 A. Well, the situation spread throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
24 same thing applied to Prijedor.
25 Q. How about the inter-ethnic relations between the peoples, did
1 they become contaminated?
2 A. Yes. It was specifically obvious in Prijedor because it used to
3 be a very tolerant environment where all ethnic communities lived
4 together; however, contaminated by the propaganda which came from Serbia
5 and Pale as well as from Prijedor itself.
6 Q. Let me put the next question to you. Is it correct that
7 inter-ethnic relations were quite bad as early as 1991?
8 A. I wouldn't put it that way.
9 Q. Were there no arguments or conflicts concerning mobilisation?
10 A. It's a very complex issue. The problem was an ideological one.
11 All Serbs wanted to live in a Greater Serbia which would basically be
12 some kind of ex-Yugoslavia, whereas all other ethnicities in line with
13 the decisions of the international community and its representatives in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to become independent, to see Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina and -- become an independent state like Croatia and Slovenia
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sivac, you are an old time Prijedor resident.
18 Was it your impression at the time that many crimes were committed out of
20 A. What period do you have in mind?
21 Q. When the clashes began.
22 A. Clashes, that's a different thing. Before the clashes and during
23 the time of expectation, if I can put it that way, in 1991 - or time of
24 anticipation, whenever Serb warriors returned from the theatre of war in
25 Slavonia, in Croatia, there were always serious incidents and murders out
1 of revenge, of course.
2 Q. Did the war contribute to the fact that criminals found fruitful
3 ground for robbing and looting?
4 A. Criminals from Prijedor - and I know them all because I had
5 worked for 20 years for the security service - immediately took part in
6 those Serb army units. They went to wage war in Western Slavonia, not
7 because of their ideological beliefs; they went to loot and to be issued
8 with weapons after the fact they were mobilised. Once they returned from
9 war, they used those weapons to do evil and to loot. One of the most
10 notorious units that was part of the 43rd Brigade and later the
11 5th Kozara Brigade was the Suha Rebra [phoen] unit. They were criminals
12 from Bosanski Novi who had been mobilised into the VRS.
13 Q. I wanted to ask you something about your statement.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P480, please. We need the second
16 Q. In lines 7 through 10 you discuss Milos Jankovic. You say that
17 it was his task to ethnically cleanse your section where you worked.
18 When did Milos Jankovic arrive in your section or, firstly, what was the
19 title of your department? We have "section" here.
20 A. According to the organisational chart it was the communications
21 centre for encryption. I told you earlier that Milos Jankovic was
22 appointed head of that part of service in 1983, I believe.
23 Q. And you left in 1989?
24 A. The 1st of January, 1990.
25 Q. During what period was Jankovic engaged in ethnically cleansing
1 your organisation?
2 A. I don't know whether he had received any orders to do that. I
3 think it was his personal choice. I and a colleague of mine asked to be
4 transferred. We wanted to leave the service, thus leaving only one
5 Muslim person behind. Serbs were placed in our positions. It used to be
6 a service which was very careful of the ethnic key and its application,
7 whereas during that period of time it basically became a service of only
8 one ethnicity where only one Muslim remained.
9 Q. So apparently you and another Muslim left the section?
10 A. Yes, his name appears in my previous testimony. If need be, I
11 can repeat the name.
12 Q. We have the name. Were any Serbs and Croats leaving the service
13 at the same time? Did anyone retire?
14 A. No, not from my part of the service. I'm only discussing my
15 section. As for the entire security service, of course everyone made use
16 of their legal right to retire when they believed they had met the
17 conditions to do so.
18 Q. Was Jankovic doing this, that is to say, was he ethnically
19 cleansing the service while Sead Besic was his superior who was a Muslim?
20 A. Yes, he was doing it precisely at the time when Sead Besic was
21 the head of the security service.
22 Q. I presume that Milos Jankovic too was a member of the League of
24 A. That is likely. He wouldn't have been employed in our service
25 had he not been a member.
1 Q. This conduct of his, was it not unacceptable according to the
2 ideology of the League of Communists?
3 A. Mr. Lukic, after 1991 and Tito's death, the League of Communists
4 of Yugoslavia was disintegrating, it was falling apart.
5 Q. The fact is that it was one-party until the multi-party elections
6 in 1990?
7 A. Yes, but not in the same format and not in the same way that they
8 did while Tito was alive.
9 Q. Did Milos Jankovic continue this practice even when
10 Hasan Talundzic was appointed his chief?
11 A. He did, but please do not ask me about that period because I had
12 already left the security service by then.
13 Q. Thank you. On page 11 of the compilation of transcript which
14 constitutes your statement, lines 24 and 25, you speak about the columns
15 of people coming from Raskovac and Skela. They were all arriving to
16 Prijedor; is that correct?
17 A. No. Those people were from Prijedor. These are just
18 neighbourhoods in Prijedor, in the suburbs of Prijedor.
19 Q. So where were they coming then to?
20 A. Well, they were coming from these suburban areas, in the area
21 before the building where I lived which is the very centre of Prijedor
23 Q. Were there any fightings in their neighbourhoods?
24 A. No, there was no fighting either in Raskovac, Skela, or --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last name
1 of the neighbourhood.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the witness please repeat the last name
3 he mentioned of that neighbourhood. You said Raskovac, Skela, or ... ?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Zagrad, not Stari Grad.
5 Stari Grad is a different area.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. A moment ago you mentioned the curfew. Is it true that the
8 curfew was applicable to all civilians and that Serb, Croat, or Muslim
9 civilians were not allowed to move around after the curfew?
10 A. That's how it was supposed to be, but all that was applicable to
11 non-Serbs only. All the Serbs were wearing uniforms and nobody could
12 have prohibited them from moving after the curfew.
13 Q. I presume that there were Serbs with work obligation, women who
14 were not dressed in uniforms, were they the subject of that same curfew?
15 That was my question.
16 A. Very few of them. There were only very few of them who had work
17 obligation. For the most part the Serb population was in uniform already
18 and had weapons issued to them.
19 Q. On page 69 --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you received only answer to half of your
22 Were the Serbian women allowed to move around, Mr. Sivac? If you
23 look at Mr. Lukic, but I'm putting the question which -- of course it's
24 in translation to you, but -- yes. Were the Serbian women free to move
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, Your Honour.
2 During the curfew I stayed indoors in my flat, and I had no way of seeing
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Can we now have page 69, please, of your
7 statement, 6690. We need lines 21 through 25.
8 You spoke about Serbs who were returning from the front line,
9 mostly tank crews who came to Trnopolje to pick women and young girls.
10 During the period that you are talking about you were not in Trnopolje -
11 is that correct? - you just heard this second hand.
12 A. Yes. When we arrived at Trnopolje we received this information
13 from the inmates who had been in Trnopolje at that specific time.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need next page, which is page
15 70, lines 3 and 4 --
16 Q. -- where you say that if anyone were to leave Trnopolje had to
17 fulfil a number of conditions. One of the conditions was to hand over
18 his money and other valuables. In your view, was that a criminal
20 A. I know a number of people who managed to leave the Trnopolje camp
21 in that manner. Yes, it was a criminal activity that was pursued by
22 Slobodan Kuruzovic and the Balaban brothers in the Trnopolje camp who
23 were military policemen and who were his escort.
24 Q. Did you yourself hand over the money in order to be released or
25 did you leave the camp in some other way?
1 A. I left the camp in some other way.
2 Q. On this same page, page 70, you spoke about the wired fence that
3 was surrounding one part of the area where people were placed. This
4 wired fence in Trnopolje that you described, was it pulled down before
5 the arrival of TV crews and foreign journalists or was that done after
6 they had left?
7 A. Mr. Lukic, I don't know which TV crew you're referring to because
8 several TV crews and groups of journalists visited Trnopolje.
9 Q. Here you mention that Zeljko Mejakic, the Omarska commander had
10 brought several foreign TV crews.
11 A. I'm waiting for the interpretation. Mr. Lukic, Zeljko Mejakic
12 did indeed bring a number of journalists but only a few days later when
13 this wire fence was removed. I understood that you asked me about the
14 visit by Penny Marshal and that was the time when this wire fence was
15 still in existence. After spending a few days at Trnopolje camp, the
16 administration of the camp decided in the aftermath of the broadcast of
17 the shots there made by Penny Marshal, I suppose that that was the time
18 when the administration decided to remove the fence. So a few days after
19 that, this crew led by the camp commander, Zeljko Mejakic, arrived.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if this would be a suitable time for a
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The break will be slightly longer today for very
24 practical reasons.
25 Could the witness already follow the usher.
1 We take a break of approximately a half an hour.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 Meanwhile, I use the time for the following, and I'm addressing
8 mainly the Defence. But for a number of MFI's, the parties have not yet
9 provided English translations or final English translations. The parties
10 are instructed to review the list of the following MFI's and report back
11 to the Chamber by next Tuesday. It's about D65, D67, D59, D47, D48, D40,
12 and D81.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, once you're ready, please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I am ready.
16 Q. Mr. Sivac, now I'd like to discuss Kozarac with you because
17 that's also a subject that you addressed in your statement. Do you know
18 that in Kozarac there were 3.500 registered combatants as part of the
19 Muslim Bosniak forces of Kozarac?
20 A. That information is wrong. That's a fabrication that the media
21 disseminated, and I'm referring here to Simo Drljaca and the rest of
23 Q. Do you have any information as to how many combatants there were?
24 A. I don't have accurate information, but I'm sure that the number
25 was far, far lower than that.
1 Q. Is it a fact that on the 25th of May the military column moving
2 towards Prijedor was attacked and the column was coming from Banja Luka?
3 A. That information is incorrect too. This was taken only as a
4 pretext and as an excuse to shell and attack Kozarac.
5 Q. So was the army from Banja Luka or were they from Prijedor?
6 A. Let me tell you this, Mr. Lukic: The entire main road between
7 Prijedor and Banja Luka at the time was controlled by the VRS and it was
8 completely passable and accessible.
9 Q. My question was if you knew whether those military personnel were
10 from Banja Luka or from Prijedor?
11 A. Well, I'm telling you that there was no army and there was no
12 convoy. That's a fabrication that was disseminated in order to raise
14 Q. Is it true -- is it true that the first conflict broke out in
16 A. No, that is not correct. Only towards the end of the ethnic
17 cleansing of Kozarac a conflict broke out in Jakupovici. That was a
18 revenge of Momcilo Radinovic, aka Cica, and a group of the residents of
20 Q. Had you heard that soldier Jovan Zgonjanin was killed and he was
21 at the head of the column in a truck?
22 A. That information is also wrong, Mr. Lukic. Even the most zealous
23 purveyors and conveyers of this information, such as "Kozarski Vjesnik"
24 and Radio Prijedor said that only something allegedly happened in general
25 terms, that a column had allegedly been attacked. And the name of the
1 soldier that you mention is completely wrong because if that were true
2 they would have published his name. This soldier was killed during the
3 ethnic cleansing of Kozarac.
4 Q. You were not in Kozarac at the time; is that correct?
5 A. No, I wasn't. The capture of Kozarac took place and I was
6 following the events through the media only. There was almost a live
7 broadcast provided by Radio Prijedor of the Serb capture of Kozarac.
8 Q. I suppose that you also did not take part in the arming of people
9 of Kozarac and that you don't know what kind of weapons they had?
10 A. No, I did not take part in the army -- arming of any group.
11 According to the information that I have, the people of Kozarac who had a
12 number of weapons, those weapons were mostly infantry weapons and a few
13 Zoljas, rocket-launchers, that each of the member had in his arsenal.
14 Q. Were you aware that at one point on the 25th of May the fighting
15 stopped and that people who put up resistance in Kozarac were called upon
16 to surrender and end the fighting?
17 A. At the request of Osmo Didovic, the police commander of Kozarac
18 who used radio communication to get in touch with Radmilo Zeljaja who was
19 leading the operation of the capture of Kozarac, the fighting was
20 suspended for a while; however, Zeljaja put forth a condition that the
21 policemen from the Kozarac police station must surrender unconditionally
22 at the -- with -- led by Mr. Didovic. At the time it was under the
23 police station of Prijedor, and during peace time it was manned only by
24 ten policemen. The commander of the Kozarac police station,
25 Osmo Didovic, led the column of the Kozarac police officers. And at the
1 forward command post where Radmilo Zeljaja was he -- they surrendered
2 themselves directly to him. However, that was not enough and they were
3 executed in the vicinity of that command post.
4 Q. So you were told by others; correct?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. However, the negotiations failed and the fighting resumed on the
8 A. When Osmo Didovic and the group of policemen surrendered and when
9 the rest heard what had happened to them, there was panic. Any kind of
10 resistance in Kozarac had been dealt with much before that and the
11 population was simply now trying to save their lives because the shelling
12 was resumed. There was random shelling of the entire area of Kozarac.
13 Some fled in panic towards Mount Kozara while others surrendered to the
14 Serb army and police.
15 Q. Is it also correct that many civilians arrived in Prijedor after
16 the fighting was stopped?
17 A. That's quite interesting. Only a small portion of the population
18 managed to reach Prijedor by routes unknown to me. However, a small
19 group was placed in the area of Puharska while another bigger group which
20 was in front of the gym in Prijedor was put on buses and taken to the
21 Trnopolje camp.
22 Q. Did you know that those wounded in Kozarac were taken to the
23 hospital in Prijedor?
24 A. I have firsthand information on that account. The drivers who
25 drove the two ambulances told me about that in the camp. Near the
1 forward command post where Radmilo Zeljaja was, as well as the command of
2 Serb attacks on Kozarac, they were made to abandon their ambulances and
3 taken to the camp. Those wounded who were in the ambulances were killed
4 on the spot.
5 Q. So it is your testimony today that the wounded from Kozarac were
6 not taken to the Prijedor hospital?
7 A. I only know about the two vehicles, and if you want me to I can
8 cite the names of the drivers. The two vehicles were destroyed and the
9 wounded people inside killed. I don't know whether some other people
10 managed to reach the Prijedor hospital by other means or in another
11 way - that may well be - but I don't know anything about that.
12 Q. Do you know of a counter attack on Kozarac in an attempt to get
13 it back by Muslim forces headed by Kemal Alagic?
14 A. Mr. Lukic, this is a farce, it's ridiculous. Kemal Alagic --
15 well, Divjak was in the area of Ljubija. In order to reach Kozarac --
16 well, it was impossible. It's not true. It was a fabrication which may
17 have been carried by the media. I've never heard of that and it never
18 came about.
19 Q. Very well. Did you hear that on the 3rd of May an SDA war staff
20 was formed in Hambarine and their seat was in a bunker on Orahovo hill?
21 A. I hear this for the first time and I was not a member of the SDA.
22 Q. Is it true that the commander of units in Kozarac was Sead Cirkin
23 who at the time was an active-duty military officer?
24 A. Yes, that's what I heard. Once he left the JNA he went back to
25 his native town of Kozarac in an attempt to establish some kind of
1 Territorial Defence.
2 Q. The policeman from Kozarac whom you mentioned took part in the
3 fighting; correct?
4 A. Probably. It was their duty to protect the civilians and the
5 population of Kozarac village.
6 Q. Do you know whether any of them were killed in combat?
7 A. Could be. I don't know about that, but I do know about the group
8 headed by their commander. I know that they were cruelly murdered after
9 they had surrendered.
10 Q. On page 94 we have a redaction.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D414, page 80.
12 It is transcript page 13258 of the 16th of August, 2010.
13 Q. There you say -- you begin discussing Hambarine.
14 [In English] "There was still a decree in force at the time
15 issued by the legal authorities at the municipal level in Prijedor,
16 stating that in the enclave where the Muslims were in the majority, there
17 had to be check-points formed which were to serve to check any Serb
18 soldiers who frequently tried to enter the enclave drunk and to prevent
19 them from doing so. They were supposed to hand over their weapons at
20 such check-points and on their way out they would be given their weapons
22 [Interpretation] Please tell us where we can find this decree or
23 whatever the legal document was called.
24 A. That decree or that regulation or that approval for check-points
25 to be established in ethnically pure enclaves was put into force by the
1 illegally elected authorities with the participation of Serbs because
2 there were frequent complaints by the residents, inhabitants of those
3 enclaves, of such incidents taking place. It is not only that Muslims
4 had a right to set up check-points in such situations, but also Serbs in
5 their ethnically pure Serb enclaves were entitled to establish such
6 check-points to control entry.
7 Q. Did you see that decree?
8 A. I did not. However, such information was broadcast on
9 Radio Prijedor. It was also published in the "Kozarski Vjesnik"
10 newspaper in January or February 1992.
11 Q. You know that SFOR had collected all documentation pertaining to
12 the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor as well as the Prijedor SUP and
13 Kozarski Vjesnik as well as that of the hospital in Prijedor. Such a
14 legal document has never been shown here.
15 A. I don't know what kind of documents they found. I do know,
16 however, that it was agreed by the then-authorities, the legally elected
17 authorities and representatives in Prijedor to have it done. In such
18 arrangements, Radmilo Zeljaja and Vladimir Arsic who were the barracks
19 commanders also took part as well as other commanders of the Serb
20 war-time units.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, would you please remind Mr. Mladic that
22 there should be no discussions, no consultations, no talking in court,
23 consultations to be during the break. This is the last warning for
24 today. Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In the same document, page 81, which is the next page, you
2 discuss an incident at a check-point in Hambarine. You say that there
3 were six drunken Serbs in a single car who caused an incident. The
4 patrolman at the check-point asked them to surrender their weapons,
5 promising that they would return them once they came back. However, the
6 people in the vehicle opened fire and the result was two dead Serb
7 soldiers and a number of wounded. That is lines 1 through 6 on this
8 page. First of all, do you know now that there were two Croats in that
9 vehicle as well?
10 A. I knew it the very day of the incident. I knew that there were
11 two Croats who were members of the VRS.
12 Q. How many Muslims were wounded in that incident?
13 A. According to the information I have, there were three wounded
14 Muslims. One was called Ferid Sikiric who was seriously wounded and
15 transported to the Prijedor hospital.
16 Q. Do you know the names of the other two?
17 A. I think one was a Ejupovic and another Ramulic, Aziz Aliskovic,
18 and another two men, cousins of his, who were also present at the
19 check-point when the incident took place fled.
20 Q. Our information is to the extent that no Muslims were wounded and
21 the Serbs did not open fire whatsoever. Do you assert that that is
23 A. I do. Here in the courtroom I had an opportunity to view some
24 footage where Ferid Sikiric was interviewed in the Prijedor hospital
25 following his wounding. In detail he explained how things developed.
1 For the Court's benefit, Ferid Sikiric, once he had provided an interview
2 for the Serbian television, was taken from the Prijedor hospital and
3 killed somewhere outside the hospital despite the fact that he had been
4 seriously wounded.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber feels that it is not very
6 much assisted by having the two versions where this witness apparently
7 has no firsthand knowledge of much of it. Now, of course, hearsay is not
8 prohibited, but then to hear your version and then the witness saying
9 that it's not true and that he saw once on television this or that.
10 Let's try and stick as close as possible to what the facts are the
11 witness observed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. At the time of call-ups in the fall of 1991, in September, the
14 Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina were against the JNA; is that a fair
16 A. It is not. Muslims in Bosnia were against being mobilised. They
17 were not against the JNA.
18 Q. Is it correct that the leadership of the SDA in Prijedor was
19 against the presence of the JNA in the area of Prijedor municipality in
21 A. They simply wanted that the JNA, which was still the Yugoslav
22 People's Army, to conduct themselves in a fair and appropriate manner
23 when found in such a large town.
24 Q. Is it correct that the SDA president in Prijedor tried to stop a
25 JNA column as early as July or August 1991?
1 A. One of such columns used force on the streets of Prijedor. It
2 was a show of strength. The tanks paced or rolled up and down the
3 streets of Prijedor causing fear and panic. Upset by such military
4 conduct, Mirza Mujadzic used his own vehicle and placed it in the middle
5 of one of the streets. By that fact alone, he managed to stopped the
6 tanks. There was a brief verbal argument and the situation was tense.
7 However, after a short while the tanks went on their way.
8 Q. Due to the tensions and everything that was going on in Bosnia,
9 people of all ethnicities were leaving Bosnia and Prijedor as early as
10 the beginning of 1992; is that correct?
11 A. It is not correct. The Serbs were not leaving Prijedor.
12 Prijedor was abandoned only by Muslims and Croats.
13 Q. The head of the National Defence Secretariat as of the
14 multi-party elections in 1990 was Becir Medunjanin; correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. He was an SDA member?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. At the head of military unit was a Serb, Zeljaja or Arsic, either
19 of the two?
20 A. Well, they rotated in that position.
21 Q. Military units could not be manned without the participation of
22 Becir Medunjanin because he had the records of military conscripts in his
24 A. As far as I know, the records of able-bodied men were kept at the
25 Secretariat for National Defence.
1 Q. Is it also true that Medunjanin obstructed as much as he could
2 the mobilisation?
3 A. Becir Medunjanin, chief of the draft office in Prijedor, was
4 following the instructions that he was receiving from the republican
5 secretariat in Sarajevo and he had to comply with their decisions. You
6 know the doctrine that was in place in the former state, which is to say
7 that all military structures were under the control of civilian
8 authorities, at least that's how it should have been.
9 Q. The instructions that Medunjanin was receiving were such that he
10 was instructed to obstruct the mobilisation, those received from
12 A. Well, neither Zeljaja nor Arsic had a right to organise the
13 mobilisation in their own way. That required a decision to be taken by
14 the Secretariat for National Defence or at least in agreement with them.
15 As it is, it would have been a private army of Zeljaja or Arsic.
16 Q. Then based on what did they request those lists? Was it
17 somebody's decision or did they decide themselves to carry out a kind of
18 private mobilisation?
19 A. I don't know why they asked for those lists because all these war
20 time units that they headed were well manned. They were very actively
21 involved in the theatre of war in Western Slavonia and Croatia in 1991.
22 Q. Maybe I didn't put my question correctly. Is it true that the
23 mobilisation carried out in 1991 in September and in early 1992 was
25 A. Mr. Lukic, you are reading only one section of that law.
1 Your Honours, let me tell you this: It is true that there is an
2 article in the said law which says that if there is an attack on
3 Yugoslavia, a general mobilisation must be carried out and all
4 able-bodied men must respond to it. However, here Mr. Lukic omitted to
5 read further on. There's another article in the law which says that if,
6 or rather, it reads like this: No one has the right to mobilise a person
7 to join a military formation that would go out and commit crimes in
8 contravention of the international conventions and laws on human rights
9 to which Yugoslavia was a signatory. This time around the political
10 leadership in Sarajevo tried to explain it in this manner: By saying
11 that nobody attacked Yugoslavia and therefore no one is bound to respond
12 to the mobilisation, because if one goes to fight in a war you will have
13 to kill members of the peoples who only a few months before that used to
14 live side by side with us. That law could be applied only in the event
15 of an external attack on Yugoslavia.
16 Q. I have read quite a few military regulations, but I have never
17 come across such a provision. Can you please enlighten me and tell me
18 which law you were referring to?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we're entering in a legal debate rather
20 than anything else. I don't know whether this witness who may have
21 opinions about these matters but is not called as an expert in these
22 matters, to what extent this witness can assist us. Just for you to know
23 that this is of some concern to me. I'm not going to stop you because --
24 but please be aware of the limited importance of a debate with a
25 non-trained lawyer in these matters.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would have only one
2 follow-up question. Actually, I would let the witness to answer to quote
3 the law where he said he found this article or provision.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If he's able to do so, he's invited to do so.
5 Do you have the article you just quoted -- you referred to, do
6 you have -- can you quote it? Do you have the text somewhere available?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That answers the question.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court Exhibit 1D411. We
12 need page 3, transcript number 6777.
13 Q. In line 9 to 13 you say:
14 [In English] "All those who refused to join the Serb army who
15 were Muslims and Croats were accused chiefly of this. This was one of
16 the chief allegations made against them, one of the main reasons for
17 their being taken to the camps, to Omarska and Keraterm."
18 [Interpretation] And then in line 4 you say the following:
19 [In English] "Let me explain why they needed those lists. Later
20 on in 1992 when the Serb Democratic Party with the help of the army and
21 police took over power in Prijedor, they made use of these lists to
22 accuse all those who had not reported -- who had not responded to the
23 call-up ..."
24 [Interpretation] Would you say again today that the main reason
25 for people being detained and imprisoned at Omarska and Keraterm was that
1 they failed to respond to the call-up?
2 A. That was not the only reason. That was only one of the reasons.
3 Q. Is it true that all Muslim journalists, Muslim and Croat
4 journalists, from September 1991 onwards used to refer to the JNA in
5 their reports as the former JNA?
6 A. Mr. Lukic, I don't know which journalists you have in mind, all
7 the journalists in Bosnia-Herzegovina or just the journalists from
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 4 of this document
10 which is the next page. The transcript page is 6778 and we need lines 9
11 to 13.
12 Q. The question was:
13 [In English] "Your television company, from the beginning of
14 September 1991, did it tell you when you were reporting on the JNA, to
15 use the term 'The former JNA'?"
16 And your response in lines 12 and 13 was, I quote:
17 "Yes. Yes. All the journalists of Bosniak and Croatian
18 nationality used this term."
19 So can you please tell us, does this refer to Prijedor or was it
20 something that came from the central office in Sarajevo, meaning that it
21 pertained to the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also is your
22 statement correct?
23 A. Yes. That was the decision by the central office in Sarajevo and
24 that's how the former Yugoslav army was designated, not only by the
25 Muslim journalists but also by the Serbs who stayed behind in Sarajevo.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Central office of what? Witness, could you ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the editorial office of
3 Sarajevo television with whom we maintained a permanent contact and that
4 was the news and political section of TV Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Was this use of this word, was that limited to this
6 television company or was it also in newspapers and was it more broadly
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was applied in
9 the print media as well, but I don't know exactly. Believe me, I cannot
10 remember when such recommendation came from the editorial office, whether
11 that was in 1991 or maybe much, much later. I don't know the date.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I'm asking because the question by
13 which Mr. Lukic introduced the matter was by a general reference to
14 journalists, whereas the questions here seem to focus on the television
15 company. So therefore I would -- wanted to understand how broad or
16 narrow this habit was.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 [Interpretation] We need page 5 now in this document, 1D414. The
20 transcript page is 6779 and we need lines 13 to 15.
21 Q. You say:
22 [In English] "... I visited and I had an opportunity to visit
23 only a few polling stations, a large number of Serbs voted for an
24 independent and sovereign Bosnia."
25 [Interpretation] So you said today that the Serbs were in favour
1 of remaining within Yugoslavia. Now here you said that a large number of
2 Serbs voted in favour of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina. Can you
3 reconcile these two assertions?
4 A. Mr. Lukic, it can be explained very easily. The plebiscite that
5 the Serbs had organised was completely unconstitutional and illegal --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we -- when I read your answer at the time is
8 " ... I think that according to the statements made by members of
9 the electoral commissions I visited, and I had an opportunity to visit
10 only a few polling stations, a large number of Serbs voted for an
11 independent and sovereign Bosnia."
12 So what apparently the witness is doing is quoting what the
13 members of the electoral commissions stated, whereas in your question,
14 Mr. Lukic, you asked:
15 "Now here you said that a large number of Serbs voted in favour
16 of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina ..."
17 That's not what the witness said. The witness said is that this
18 was what the members of the electoral commission told him, and further in
19 that answer it's clear that he cannot quantify that in any way. Let's
20 remain very precise on questions and let's also try to avoid to move away
21 very much to background and issues which are more in the margin of the
22 testimony of this witness rather than to focus on the core of the
23 testimony of this witness. I must immediately add to that, Mr. Lukic,
24 that the way in which the Prosecution presented this evidence certainly
25 also adds to this confusion so I'm just trying to get things on track as
1 good as I can. Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will withdraw the question
3 and I will pose different question that is more in connection with
4 this --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, what were you told by the members of
8 these commissions, can you recall? How many Serbs were counted at those
9 polling stations and how was it possible to know what their vote was
10 because it was a secret ballot?
11 A. Mr. Lukic, the members of the commissions knew all their Serb
12 neighbours who came to vote and on the basis of that they provided this
13 kind of information.
14 Q. Was it possible for the voters to vote either in favour or
15 against? Do they know exactly how many Serbs turned out?
16 A. They didn't know how many people turned out, but they know that
17 Serbs took part in the referendum.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I again try to cut this short.
20 What really is the dispute between the parties? Is it the
21 position of the Prosecution that the Serbs by -- in any substantial way
22 participated in this referendum? And is it the position of the
23 Prosecution that the Serbs by a majority were in favour of an independent
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina ? Is that the position of the Prosecution?
25 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, if I may answer in brief, that was not
1 the focus or the purpose that we had tendered the -- this witness's
2 evidence --
3 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question --
4 MR. SHIN: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- how you focused, but whether that's the position,
6 if that's the case, of the Prosecution.
7 MR. SHIN: If I may consult briefly with my colleagues.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
9 MR. SHIN: Thank you.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
12 MR. SHIN: Yes. No, Your Honour, that is not our position.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Lukic, many of your questions seem to
14 focus on perhaps a few remarks by the witness but seems not to address
15 anything that is in dispute between Prosecution and Defence.
16 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So would you please move on. Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, let's move on. I wanted to ask you
20 about Donja Puharska which is a Muslim village. Is it correct that as
21 early as March 1992 there were night guards in that village?
22 A. Puharska is not a village; it is a neighbourhood of Prijedor.
23 Q. Apologies then. Is it correct that in Puharska, part of
24 Prijedor -- first of all, is it a Muslim part of Prijedor?
25 A. Well, there are about 70 per cent Muslims and 30 per cent Serbs.
1 Q. Is it correct that in March 1992 there were night guards in that
2 part of Prijedor and night patrols?
3 A. I don't know because I did not reside in that part of Prijedor.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 6 of this document,
5 please, which is 1D411. It is transcript page 6780.
6 Q. The question begins in line 9 and concludes in line 10 and then
7 the answer, which is somewhat long, goes on up to line 23 and then
8 continues in 25. The question is:
9 [In English] "Do you know that in March 1992 the villages of
10 Donja Puharska were already holding night patrols?"
11 And the question continues in line 24 and it says:
12 "Is your answer to my question yes?"
13 And line 25 the answer was:
14 "Yes, it is."
15 [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory? You had
16 previously responded to the same kind of question with a yes.
17 A. Well, what I can say now is that I accept the answer I provided
18 before because my memory was better at the time.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I think we are close to where we need a
21 break. Could you find a suitable moment within the next two or three
23 MR. LUKIC: This is a suitable moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This is a suitable moment?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break but not until after the
2 witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are we on track as far as timing is
5 concerned? I think your estimate was three hours -- three and a half --
6 two and a half, I apologise.
7 MR. LUKIC: I would accept that three-hour estimate.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, how generous of you, Mr. Lukic. Could you
9 give us an indication?
10 MR. LUKIC: I should finish in another -- in another hour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Then we take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, it is not the first time that the
16 Chamber had to wait for a substantial time before we could start. If you
17 next time would again use the toilet facilities at the end of the break,
18 the Chamber will start and you'll have to wait until the next break. The
19 Chamber considers this to be a waiver of your right to be present in
20 court. So next time we'll not wait as we did today nine minutes. We'll
21 just start. You can follow the proceedings, if you wish, from a cell
22 with a screen and you would then of course be welcome again after the
23 next break.
24 This having said, could the witness be escorted into the
1 Mr. Mladic apparently wants to consult with counsel which he can
2 during the next break or write a small note to counsel and then it will
3 be passed on to counsel.
4 Mr. Groome, there was an issue about scheduling next week. The
5 Chamber -- the Judges have looked in their agendas and the best
6 opportunities to gain some extra time would be on Monday and Tuesday.
7 The Chamber would like you to come up with a concrete plan, that is,
8 because just adding an hour to a morning session is not possible, as you
9 may aware of due to staff supporting us.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore could you prepare a plan and perhaps
12 discuss it already with Mr. Lukic so that we can use some extra time, but
13 preferably focus on Monday and Tuesday afternoons for the extra time.
14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Lukic, if you're ready please continue
16 your cross-examination.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I am going to ask you about Ljubija
19 next. Is it correct that the Muslims replaced by force the Croat who was
20 at the helm of the police station in Ljubija in Prijedor municipality?
21 A. You have in mind Branko Bjekic?
22 Q. I do.
23 A. Well, you see, according to the information I have, in Ljubija at
24 the time a staff of sorts was established, not a Crisis Staff, but this
25 one comprised Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. They decided to have
1 Branko Bjekic removed because he was commander in the previous communist
2 regime. Amongst themselves, they had agreed to have Fikret Sarajlic take
3 over that position who had been an active-duty policeman in Prijedor.
4 After the take-over by Serbs in Prijedor he was kicked out as well. He
5 hails from Ljubija.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have page 8, please, of the
7 document before us, 1D411. It is transcript page 6782. I'm interested
8 in lines 23 through 25 at the bottom of the page and then we'll move on
9 to the next lines 1 through 6.
10 Q. In this testimony you say:
11 "In Ljubija in May 1992, Branko Bjekic was removed. He was a
12 police commander in Ljubija, a Croat by nationality. He was replaced by
13 Fikret Sarajlic who had been dismissed from his job in Prijedor."
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I read "exchanged" instead of "removed."
15 MR. LUKIC: Then I will read in English. Maybe I didn't
16 translate properly.
17 "In Ljubija in May 1992, Branko Bjekic was exchanged. He was a
18 police commander in Ljubija, a Croat by nationality. He was replaced by
19 Fikret Sarajlic who had been dismissed from his job in Prijedor and he
20 was assisted by Drago Tokmadzic, Ismet Taric, Aziz Aliskovic, and
21 Velid Krupic. In this way, they took over the police station in Ljubija.
22 Is that correct?"
23 Q. [Interpretation] Your answer:
24 [In English] "Yes, for a very short time. They did not agree to
25 be commanded by Simo Drljaca, and the extremists from the Serbian
1 Democratic Party who had taken over the police station in Prijedor."
2 [Interpretation] All of the persons you mentioned here, save for
3 Drago Tokmadzic, were Muslim; correct?
4 A. Yes. Drago Tokmadzic was a Croat.
5 Q. Just now you told us that a staff was established comprising all
6 ethnicities, that is to say Serbs, Muslims, and Croats. Can you tell us
7 who was there on behalf of the Serb side?
8 A. I forgot to mention at the time the name of Curguz. I know him
9 under the nickname of Krivi. He was a Serb. There was a Komosar person,
10 another Serb, from the police station. I have to tell you, though, that
11 this sort of staff was active in Ljubija for only a few days. In only
12 several days that police station was put under sub-control from Prijedor.
13 Q. Is it your testimony today that Curguz, aka Krivi, and the
14 Komosar person - and you say they were both Serbs - participated in the
15 removal of Branko Bjekic?
16 A. I don't know who participated in his removal by name. I do know
17 that he was removed. I only mentioned the policemen I knew well with
18 whom I used to work in the security service.
19 Q. Thank you. I was to leave this topic briefly. You were asked
20 whether your cousin Adnan took some packages to Slavko Ecimovic, be it in
21 person or with the assistance of Dr. Esad or Hamed Cuk. Is that piece of
22 information correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Slavko Ecimovic headed the attack or, as you call it, an attempt
25 of liberating Prijedor; correct?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Did you have any participation in providing assistance to the
3 fighters headed by Ecimovic?
4 A. No, none whatsoever. I even had a difference of views with
5 Slavko Ecimovic.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the leadership of the SDA and of
7 the SDS in Prijedor had agreed on the take-over and that Mirza Mujadzic,
8 SDA president, took part in those talks?
9 A. The SDA and the SDS, whether they had any arrangements in place?
10 Q. Yes, about the take-over of power so as to have it done without
12 A. I received that information from a third source and perhaps I
13 mentioned it in one of my previous statements. I stand by it in any
15 Q. Mirza Mujadzic had sent his family out of Prijedor before the
16 conflict erupted; correct?
17 A. Yes, but so did many other people from Prijedor, other Muslims
18 and Croats.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I do not know exactly what the status in
20 e-court of this document is because it's not part of the admitted
21 transcripts. If I try to open it for myself, access is denied. That may
22 be a technical problem, but do you want to tender it then?
23 MR. LUKIC: According to Your Honour's guide-lines, we plan to
24 review what we used at the end of the day and maybe only tender the
25 portions we used.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes because --
2 MR. LUKIC: Not the whole -- not the whole transcript.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay that's fine as far as I'm concerned.
4 MR. LUKIC: Because I uploaded it seven days ago and I wasn't
5 sure at that time what I'm going to use.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Perfectly clear. Perfectly acceptable. The reason
7 why I'm asking it is if you put to the witness: Is your answer accurate?
8 And if we have not read what the answer was, then of course we would not
9 know what the evidence is unless we have those portions in evidence.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore it is also important that you always
12 clearly refer to on what page we are so that it's -- that we are better
13 able to find it. Please proceed and take care of this aspect.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will try to cure my
16 Can we have 1D411, page 15, on the screen, please, lines 19 to
17 24, please. That's regarding the take-over of power and that family of
18 Mr. Mirza Mujadzic left Prijedor was on the next page, page 16, and
19 transcript page 6790, from rows 4 to row 6 line section.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. What I specifically referred to
21 was page 45, lines 7 and following, where you say you were asked whether,
22 et cetera, et cetera, and then without saying whether he -- whether the
23 witness confirmed or denied the accuracy you asked is that piece of
24 information correct, where you were only referring to the question
25 whether or not. So we do not know whether he confirmed or not, but we'll
1 find that in the transcript of the other case. Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Regarding that information I can give you --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you put to the witness --
4 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- information he said, he confirmed it to be
6 correct. Okay.
7 MR. LUKIC: You can find it at page 9, lines 11 to 13
8 [overlapping speakers] --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's of course why I insisted so much in
10 having it in evidence.
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Now I would like to have page 31 from this
14 document -- actually 414. I need 1D414, page 31. Page 31, please. Yes,
15 transcript page number 13209. Line 16. I will read in English.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 MR. LUKIC: I will quote from English transcript. Mr. Sivac was
18 recorded to say:
19 "The Omarska camp as well ... all of the other camps in Prijedor
20 were established by the civilian authorities of the municipality of
22 Then he talks about Mr. Milan Andzic who provided logistics.
23 Now we need next page, line 4 to 7. So it's page 32. Question
24 was, I quote:
25 "And the civilian authority you're referring to is the Prijedor
1 Crisis Staff; is that right?
2 "A. Yes. Civilian authorities headed by the Crisis Staff of the
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, would you say the same today, that
5 the camps in Prijedor had been set up by the Prijedor civilian
6 authorities headed by the Crisis Staff?
7 A. Yes, I would.
8 Q. Thank you. You were asked about armed groups from Kozarac,
9 Hambarine, and I am also going to ask you whether it is true that the aim
10 of these armed groups was to breakthrough towards Bihac, carrying out
11 smaller attacks on the VRS en route?
12 A. Yes, that was their plan.
13 Q. Now let me ask you this, it concerns Milomir Stakic. At the
14 trial of Milomir Stakic you claim to have recognised him in the Omarska
15 camp; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Would you make the same claim today?
18 A. Identical.
19 Q. Also when you spoke about -- just a moment, please.
20 When you spoke about the visit of the delegation to Omarska, you
21 mentioned some other people who were present there. And we need 1D410 in
22 e-court, page 38, lines 22 to 24. Here you enumerated the names of the
23 people you recognised, and in line 23 you say Zivko Ecim, Rade Mutic,
24 Ostoja Kesar, Slobodan Pesevic, and Boro Maric. Then there are some
25 additional names which is on page 6741 of the Stakic trial on
1 31st July 2002, and then there are some names in --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the transcript
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you repeat the transcript number.
5 MR. LUKIC: Page number?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it the page of the transcript.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 6741 was the previous page number,
8 and now we need 6743.
9 Q. And there you say the politicians in the delegation were
10 Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic. From Prijedor
11 were present Simo Miskovic, Milomir Stakic, Srdjo Srdic, Simo Drljaca.
12 Did you recognise these people when they came to Omarska?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours.
14 May I address the President because I have a problem.
15 Mr. President, I have a small problem. I to leave the courtroom for a
16 minute. I do apologise, but it's force majeure and I have some health
17 issues. I'll be back shortly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We might use the time for other purposes at this
22 moment. In relation to Witness RM511 I think there were two requests.
23 One we have dealt with already, that is the chart to be used for
24 identification of voices in audio records, intercepts, but there was also
25 a request to use with Witness RM511 a chart in relation to documents.
1 Mr. Lukic, I think we have not heard yet the position of the
2 Defence in relation to the use of these documents through this chart.
3 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, Mr. Stojanovic is dealing with the next
4 witness --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: -- and I think he will address you on this issue.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us whether there's
8 any objection to the proposed course?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we are talking
10 about the same thing, we received today a table of abbreviations and
11 terms to be used --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, what -- no. What I'm talking about is a list of
13 16 documents to be used with RM511 and the chart which is intended to
14 seek the comments regarding the authenticity of those 16 documents and
15 any comments on the substance of those documents. The question is
16 whether the Defence would agree with the use of these documents through
17 this chart?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Yesterday we
19 talked to our client at the Detention Unit and I think that it is
20 acceptable for these documents to be used.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and also for the chart to be used, but then
22 later we'll find entries by this witness on authenticity and the
23 substance of the documents, at least comments on that.
24 Then under those circumstances, Mr. Groome, the Chamber allows
25 you to proceed as you suggested.
1 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Your --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I might usefully or make use of this
5 time until the witness returns, the other document that Mr. Stojanovic
6 referred to is a document that I provided the Defence earlier, and in
7 preparing for 511 it occurred to me that -- how important it is to be
8 precise about the use of language and words B/C/S don't always translate
9 precisely into English. So what I've proposed is a demonstrative exhibit
10 which takes -- will be an exhibit in this case, it is the official
11 lexicon of the JNA army which defines all of the terms, and to turn that
12 into an exhibit that we all can use so that we can be precise in the
13 language we use and that there's no confusion in the use of military
14 terms. For example, there are two B/C/S words for the -- that translate
15 into the word "order," so to ensure that we are using it precisely I've
16 offered the Defence to add any additional words that they think will be
17 useful and hopefully that process will be completed before Monday and
18 we'll be able to be distribute that to the Chamber. And I see the
19 witness is returning to the Chamber, so I'll sit down.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise to the
23 Chamber and to you, Mr. Lukic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No need to apologise.
25 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. When I listed the names of the Banja Luka politicians, I
3 mentioned Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic. Did
4 you see all of them in Omarska on that day?
5 A. Vukic, Brdjanin, no, I didn't Kupresanin but I saw --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last two
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us -- you said you didn't see
9 Kupresanin, but you did see ... and then repeat those names, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stojan Zupljanin and Predrag Radic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. So what you said in the Stakic trial that you saw Vojo Kupresanin
13 is not correct?
14 A. It is not correct. I used to mix up Zupljanin and Kupresanin. I
15 thought that they had similar faces.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D405 in e-court, please.
17 Q. Mr. Sivac, this is your statement of 12 to 16 November 1994.
18 We're still waiting for it to appear on the screens.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
20 MR. SHIN: Yes. Very briefly, Your Honours, if I may just refer
21 back to the document Mr. Lukic was quoting from, the prior transcript, it
22 may be that Mr. Lukic was, in fact, asking this witness a question by
23 reading from this witness statement, and that appears to be what it was
24 rather than the witness's testimony in the Stakic case. But I'll let
25 Mr. Lukic clarify if needed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please verify, Mr. Lukic, and see
2 whether there's any need to adjust what you said?
3 MR. LUKIC: I can go back to that, but I was reading from the
4 transcript from Stakic case.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's not --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] -- on our screens.
7 MR. SHIN: Yeah --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think that that was not the issue but who was
9 speaking or who -- Mr. Shin, that seems to be the problem?
10 MR. SHIN: Okay, Your Honour. I was just going to that page 6741
11 in the Stakic testimony where Mr. Lukic's question begins at line 13,
12 indicating that he is reading -- I'm sorry, I'm speaking too quickly.
13 I'll slow down. That Mr. Lukic indicates that he is reading the whole
14 paragraph, and if we return to page 6740, in line 19 we see that that is,
15 in fact, the paragraph from the witness statement that we have just now
16 have on the screen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say it was -- the transcript does not reflect
18 what the witness testified but was reflecting what his statement
20 MR. SHIN: Yes. It appears to be that Mr. Lukic was reading from
21 this statement which is currently on the screen in order to put a
22 question to the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are in a position to verify it.
24 MR. LUKIC: From this statement I need page 24 in B/C/S or page
25 34 in English version. Can I see ERN number in B/C/S version because I
1 don't think that's the page, please. You have to go one page back.
2 Q. [Interpretation] In the second paragraph in the middle towards
3 the end of line it reads that among the politicians were
4 Radoslav Brdjanin, Vojo Kupresanin, Dr. Radislav Vukic. Do you recall
5 making this statement in November 1994?
6 A. It is possible.
7 Q. But it's incorrect with regard to Kupresanin?
8 A. I already told you, I used to confuse Zupljanin and Kupresanin.
9 I didn't know them very well and hence the confusion.
10 Q. When you testified in the Zupljanin case you said that it was not
11 Kupresanin but that it was, in fact, him who you saw?
12 A. Yes, it was him, Stojan Zupljanin.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D410 in
14 e-court. We need page 50.
15 Q. In the Stakic case on transcript page 6753 I ask you this in line
16 14 - I'll read it out in English.
17 [In English] "Q. What was the role of the army in the running of
18 the Omarska camp?
19 "A. I don't know what the chain of command was. I'm not familiar
20 with that. But as a prisoner, I had the impression that they didn't have
21 any business connections with the camp. In the Omarska camp, as well as
22 Trnopolje and Keraterm, there were no soldiers, and that's why I think
23 that the army did not have any authority over these camps and that they
24 were run by the civilian authorities of Prijedor Municipality."
25 [Interpretation] When you testified back then, did you tell the
1 truth, Mr. Sivac?
2 A. I did. As for any subordination that existed between the
3 military and police structures, at the time it was unclear to me. And
4 any kind of co-ordination or manning mechanisms they had in place, I only
5 learned about that later.
6 Q. I'll go back to one sentence which I read a moment ago in order
7 to put a specific question.
8 [In English] "In the Omarska camp, as well as Trnopolje and
9 Keraterm, there were no soldiers, and that's why I think that the army
10 did not have any authority over these camps ..."
11 [Interpretation] Would you agree today that as a detainee you did
12 not see a single soldier?
13 A. That would be incorrect. In my previous statements and testimony
14 before this Court, I identified all such soldiers who were members of the
15 city battalion stationed around the Trnopolje camp. I can reiterate that
16 today if need be.
17 Q. So when you testified in the Stakic case, you did not tell the
19 A. So you believe. It's an assertion of yours.
20 Q. I'm asking you whether what you said in the Stakic case is true
21 or not. You tell me.
22 A. What I said then is what I repeat now. I told the truth about my
23 initial impression. I -- as far as I remember I mentioned soldiers in
24 all of my statements. I knew many of them. Some of them had been my
25 friends. There's nothing else I can say.
1 Q. Did you ever see Mico Kovacevic in the Omarska camp who was the
2 then-Municipal Assembly speaker of Prijedor municipality?
3 A. I believe so. It was when the political delegation came.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have Exhibit 1D407 in
6 Q. It is your statement of the 30th of March, 1998.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the ERN number in
8 the English -- sorry, in the B/C/S version. There seems to be something
9 wrong with the ERN numbers. Does this statement have two 7s as the last
10 two digits on any of the pages? Could we go to the last page, please.
11 [In English] My version is obviously different from this one.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps a matter to be sorted out during
13 the break.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Could you tell us how much more time you would need because I
17 think you used now close to two and a half hours.
18 MR. LUKIC: Five minutes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. After the break.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: After you've sorted out your things.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would the next witness be available, Mr. Groome?
24 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. He's just outside the door.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll -- after the
1 witness has left the courtroom, and could the usher escort him out of the
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, could you already give us an indication as
5 to how much time you would need for re-examination as matters stand now?
6 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. If there is to be any redirect at
7 all, it will be less than five minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which means we would have approximately half an hour
9 left for the next witness.
10 We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 MR. LUKIC: While the witness is entering --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: While the witness is brought in -- I sorted out my
17 papers and we will need 1D407 on the screen, first pages and then we'll
18 move just for witness to see that it's his statement.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Sivac, you can see your statement on the screen in front of
22 you given on the 30th of March, 1998. We need page 4 in the English
23 middle of the page and page 6 in the B/C/S version, bottom of the page.
24 In this statement which you gave to the Tribunal officials there's a
25 paragraph in the B/C/S then a single line where you say:
1 "I never saw Kovacevic in Omarska."
2 A. I don't know. I can't see my signature anywhere here. This is a
3 bit puzzling.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- at least in the English version, and I'm
5 checking at this moment about the B/C/S version, but I find no signatures
6 yet. I find in -- in neither version I find any signatures, not to say
7 that you still can ask the witness whether he recognises this as his
8 statement, but he might need more time to go through it. Of course I'm
9 also looking in the direction of the Prosecution. This apparently is a
10 witness statement taken by investigators of the OTP. Mr. Shin -- and I
11 noticed another thing before I give you an opportunity to respond. In
12 the English version at the bottom it says on the -- what seems to be the
13 last page in e-court, it says "page 6 of 7," therefore you would expect
14 another page, and of course we couldn't exclude that a signature is found
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. SHIN: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
20 MR. SHIN: Okay. I think we're good.
21 Yes, Your Honours, I'm informed that we do not have a signed
22 version of this statement.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, which requires then great caution, Mr. Lukic,
24 but please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Sivac, do you remember that this statement was used during
2 your testimony in the Stakic case?
3 A. Believe me when I say I don't. I also don't remember this
4 statement of mine. I have provided many statements and I have been
5 visited by a number of investigation teams, including some people from
6 the country where I resided at the time. So I really can't recall
8 Q. Very well. Let's go back to our previous topic then. Is it
9 correct that you have never in any statement or testimony before this one
10 said that in Omarska and Keraterm there were any soldiers. And if you
11 believe you have said something to that effect, do indicate it to us.
12 A. Let me tell you this, Mr. Lukic: As regards Trnopolje, when you
13 asked me about that, I understood your question. I can't recall exactly.
14 I think you asked me who was in charge of the Trnopolje camp and I said
15 civilian authorities, and indeed they were. But no one asked me who
16 provided security in the Trnopolje camp. And in all of my statements
17 thus far I mentioned Slobodan Kuruzovic and Boro Grubic and
18 Zoran Knegenic [phoen]. They were all members of the city battalion or
19 the town battalion of the VRS, so it may have been a misunderstanding.
20 The way I understood the question was who officially established the
21 Omarska and Trnopolje camps. They were created by decisions of the
22 Crisis Staff which was a civilian body. It's another issue who provided
23 security for the camps. I guess I made a switch there.
24 Q. On page 6753 in the Stakic case, you said there were no soldiers
1 A. I may have misspoken or perhaps you should keep listening to my
2 testimony and I think you'll find that I mentioned Slobodan Kuruzovic and
3 all those soldiers who guarded us.
4 Q. Slobodan Kuruzovic, the Balaban brothers, and members of the town
5 brigade, that was with regards to Trnopolje; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Not with regards to Omarska and Keraterm?
8 A. No. They guarded the Trnopolje camp.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sivac. That would be all and I would like to
10 thank you for answering my questions.
11 A. I would like to thank you as well for being fair.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, any need to re-examine the witness?
13 MR. SHIN: Yes, simply two questions, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. SHIN: If I could please ask the Court Officer to pull up
16 P480 and turn to page -- I'll wait until it's up. And turn to page 39 in
17 the e-court which would be transcript 6627.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Shin:
19 Q. Mr. Sivac, Counsel Lukic has just asked you about soldiers in
20 Omarska, and I will read you very briefly from your testimony in the
21 Stakic case. You are responding here to a question from the Prosecution,
22 and if I -- I'm sorry, if I go to the previous page, page 38 and
23 transcript page 6626. The question Prosecution counsel has asked you
24 then is "were you" -- I'm sorry, I'll repeat that. Quote:
25 "And were you then taken to the area of Omarska known as the
2 And part of your answer, if I may just skip to this part of P480,
3 now back to page 39, 6627 of the transcript, on lines 3 through 8 -- I'm
4 sorry, 3 through 10. You state:
5 "And close to the iron door in one of the corners of the garage,
6 Professor Muhamed Cehajic, president of Prijedor Municipality, was lying
7 all alone. He had obviously been beaten severely. You could see that he
8 had been maltreated. He urinated blood. I will never forget that night.
9 Around 8.00 in the evening, the door slammed open, and a Serb soldier
10 appeared. He was wearing red shades. He began to yell and threaten us.
11 He cocked his weapon. Behind him, there were the other guards standing."
12 Mr. Sivac, do you stand by your answer that I have just read out
13 in your Stakic testimony?
14 A. Yes, Your Honours.
15 Q. And finally, Mr. Sivac, you have mentioned in the delegation
16 visit to -- in response to questions both from me and Mr. Lukic, you
17 mentioned that in the delegation visit to Omarska while you were a
18 detainee there that one of the persons present there was Radmilo Zeljaja.
19 Can you please tell us whether you stand by that answer and who
20 Radmilo Zeljaja was by position?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours. He was the commander of the
22 43rd Motorised Brigade of the VRS from Prijedor.
23 MR. SHIN: No further questions, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
25 The Bench has no further questions. Mr. Lukic, you have no
1 further questions.
2 Mr. Sivac, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you
3 very much for coming to The Hague and for answering all the questions
4 that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a
5 safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for having
7 listened to what I had to say.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures for the next witness would be
10 face distortion and pseudonym which requires that when the witness enters
11 the courtroom that the curtains should be down and that the screens
12 should be in place.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we'll take this opportunity just to
14 rearrange our staff as well --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. GROOME: -- for the next witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the curtains be drawn up again. I take it
21 that face distortion is in place? It is.
22 Good afternoon, Witness RM110. Before you give evidence, the
23 Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed
24 out to you and I would like to invite you to make that solemn
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: RM110
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated. Witness, we'll not
6 call you by your own name. We will call you Witness RM110. And your
7 face is also not visible for those outside this courtroom. You will
8 first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser. Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the
10 Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. I
12 do have a fairly detailed record of the adjudicated facts, but -- which I
13 didn't get to make, but I would suggest if it's all right doing it once
14 the witness leaves the courtroom today since we won't get through the
15 rest of his testimony.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you'd postpone that. That's -- okay, let's
17 start with the witness --
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- because we have limited time left and otherwise
20 he might feel to be superfluous which he is not.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. Thank you.
22 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Can we please have 65 ter 28484 on the monitor,
25 not to be displayed outside of the courtroom.
1 Q. Sir, can you tell us, please, whether you recognise your own name
2 and date of birth on that sheet?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And, Your Honours, if I might tender this into
5 evidence under seal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28484 becomes Exhibit P490 under seal,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P490 is admitted under seal.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
11 Q. Witness, you have given statements to the Office of the
12 Prosecutor previously on the 22nd February 1996 and the 11th of March,
13 1997, as well as testified previously in cases against
14 Dragomir Milosevic, Momcilo Perisic, and Radovan Karadzic; is that
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And if we could please have 65 ter 28483, again
18 not to be broadcast outside of the courtroom on the monitor.
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise what is being displayed on the monitor in
20 front of you to be one of the witness statements that you signed on 22nd
21 February 1996?
22 A. Yes, that is one of the statements.
23 Q. And is that your signature?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, on the
1 1st of November, 2010, you signed a statement which amalgamated some
2 relevant portions of your previous OTP statements and your testimony up
3 until that point; is that right?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, would you switch off your microphone
5 if --
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Oh, I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- the witness answers.
8 I may have made a mistake. There's no voice distortion, there's
9 only face distortion, so therefore apologies for my mistake.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
11 Q. So, sir, I just asked you about the preparation of an amalgamated
12 statement before your Karadzic testimony. Do you recall that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If I could please have 65 ter 28482 on the
15 monitor, again not to be displayed outside of the courtroom.
16 Q. Sir, do you recognise what is now on the monitor as the 2010
17 amalgamated statement that we just discussed?
18 A. Yes, I recognise my signature at the bottom of the page.
19 Q. Now, with regard to both of these statements that we've now seen
20 on the monitor assigned 65 ter numbers 28482 and 28483, did you have the
21 opportunity to review them again before coming to court today?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And is there anything in either of those statements that you
24 would like to change or correct?
25 A. No, there isn't anything.
1 Q. If asked the same questions today that you were asked when
2 providing the information contained in those two statements, would you
3 give the same answers today?
4 A. Yes, certainly.
5 Q. And is all the information in both of those statements truthful
6 and accurate?
7 A. Yes, they are truthful and accurate.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I now tender under seal both
10 65 ter number 28482 and 28483 along with the associated exhibits, as
11 indicated on the revised exhibit list provided to the Defence and
12 Chamber. I would note that in terms of the associated exhibits,
13 Your Honour -- I'm sorry, if you would just give me one second -- I
14 apologise. I'm offering the -- along with the associated exhibits as
15 indicated on the revised exhibit list provided.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start with the two statements.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28483 becomes Exhibit P491,
19 Your Honours. And document 28482 becomes Exhibit P492, Your Honours,
20 both under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Both are admitted under seal.
22 Now, as far as the associated exhibits are concerned,
23 Ms. Hochhauser, we received the list and let's just see whether that's
24 the most recent one. I -- yes. The first one I think is 10046; is that
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Official report.
3 Any objections?
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10046 becomes Exhibit P493,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
8 The next one would be, Ms. Hochhauser, shaded items not -- would
9 that mean that 10121 is the next one?
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P494, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The next one would be 10134 -- by the way, for P494
14 I should have said "under seal."
15 Then 10134 is the next one.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P495, Your Honours, under seal.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
18 Next one, 10234.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P496, Your Honours, under seal.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence --
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I might address the last one of
22 the associated exhibits which is 65 ter number 13865. I'll make a more
23 detailed record of it later, but in reliance on adjudicated facts I will
24 not be tendering that at this time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then 10352, does that remain?
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, Judge, that should be shaded on the chart.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Should be shaded. And 12844 --
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Also.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Also. So we have dealt with all those you wanted to
6 Mr. Stojanovic, I carefully looked at you but I always noticed
7 that there were no objections against these documents.
8 Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, if I could at this time read the
10 public summary of the evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: So RM110 worked for the Sarajevo security
13 services from around April of 1994 until the end of the conflict. In
14 this role, RM110 participated in the investigation of numerous shelling
15 and sniping incidents.
16 RM110 was often on the site of investigations and recorded many
17 of others' conclusions and observations as well as his own in official
19 Among other investigations, RM110 investigated four scheduled
20 incidents, including F-11, the firing on passengers on a tram on 8
21 October 1994; G-13, the use of a modified air bomb on Safeta Hadzica
22 Street on 26 May 1994; and G-18, the shelling of the Markale Market on 28
23 August 1995. And I notice that I believe I misspoke. I should have said
24 "three scheduled incidents."
25 The written evidence of RM110 also covers the investigation of
1 unscheduled shelling incidents both from 28 June of 1995, one, the
2 bombing of the TV building; and second, the bombing of Geteova Street
3 number 5 in the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood; as well as an unscheduled
4 sniping incident on 14th of May, 1995, in which Jasmina Tabakovic was
5 killed in her bedroom in Dobrinja. In each instance, the on-site
6 investigation identified the origin of fire as Bosnian Serb-held
8 That concludes the summary, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have further questions for the
10 witness, please proceed.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, RM110, as you know, the Chamber's already in possession of
13 your statements, the statements that you've just seen that have been on
14 the monitor. And so as a result, I'm going to limit my questions to
15 either clarifying information in those statements or eliciting
16 information that is not contained in them.
17 So in regard to what is now in evidence as P493 under seal, and
18 that is the shooting incident at a tram, incident F-11, on 8 October
19 1994, in that exhibit at -- in the English page 2 and the bottom of page
20 1 in the B/C/S, the weapon that is -- the report describes the weapon
21 used as a death sower. Can you tell us what is meant by a death sower?
22 And this -- this is an exhibit that's under seal.
23 A. Well, that's what I heard from my colleagues who were a
24 ballistics expert, that it involved fire-arm with a long barrel and that
25 can fire a large amount of rounds. So usually people say that anyone who
1 has this kind of gun pointed at them due to speedy fire is unable to flee
2 and avoid consequences, and for that reason it was named death sower.
3 Q. Now I'm going to turn now to the event on 26 May 1995 on
4 Safeta Hadzica Street.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Can we please have 656 ter 10132 on the screen
6 and this is a public exhibit.
7 Q. Now, sir, did you have the opportunity to look through this
8 series of photographs prior to coming to court today?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are they accurately identified as coming from the scene of
11 Safeta Hadzica Street on 26 May 1995?
12 A. Yes. As far as the photographs that I saw are concerned, this is
13 the scene on Safeta Hadzica Street.
14 Q. And were you present at that scene?
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. And do the photographs accurately depict the location as you saw
17 it after the bombing?
18 A. At the moment I can see only one photo, but what I saw before I
19 appeared in court, yes, the photographs were taken at that location where
20 projectiles landed on Safeta Hadzica Street.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And, Your Honours, at this time I'd like to
22 tender 65 ter 10132 into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10132 becomes Exhibit P497,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence as a public exhibit.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Now if we could please have Exhibit 495 under
4 seal on the monitor -- oh, I apologise, P495.
5 Q. And I'd like to just quickly draw your attention at page 5 in the
6 English and page 6 in the B/C/S, and in the B/C/S I believe it's the
7 third full paragraph from the bottom, second sentence of that paragraph.
8 And it indicates there that the explosion was in front of number 52,
9 whereas elsewhere in the report it indicates -- it states number 152. I
10 believe you've addressed this at previous testimony, but is it -- are
11 those two separate incidents or is it a typographical error?
12 A. No, that's one and the same incident. Probably the error
13 occurred during the typing of this report, and I'm referring to the error
14 in the number. If I remember correctly, at the moment the number should
15 be 52.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Now if we could go into private session, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time I'm looking at the clock. We
19 have to finish in one minute from now. I don't know whether it's
20 worthwhile to go into private session.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, it's not, Judge.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then Witness RM110, I'd like to instruct you,
23 because we'll adjourn for the day, I'd like to instruct you that you
24 should not speak or communicate in any other way with whomever about your
25 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given already today or
1 whether that is testimony still to be given next week. If that's clear
2 to you, you may follow the usher and we'd like to see you back on Monday
3 morning at 9.30.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, I think reading the relevant
7 adjudicated facts could be best done when we are waiting for the witness
8 to enter the courtroom on Monday.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That usually takes close to a minute before the
11 witness is there, rather than to ask for further patience of
12 interpreters, security, and transcribers.
13 We adjourn for the day and we will resume Monday, the 12th of
14 November, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of
17 November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.