Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5150

 1                           Thursday, 15 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.  Mr. Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  The Chamber was informed

10     that there was one preliminary about a document of which a translation

11     should be replaced.  Ms. Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The document in

13     question is P00468, which was admitted through Ms. Hanson on the

14     7th of November, 2012.  The English translation contains a translation of

15     the entire gazette from which Article 42 was taken as opposed to the one

16     page of Article -- of Article 42, and so we're asking leave to instruct

17     the Court Officer to remove from e-court pages 2 to 102 of the English

18     translation, which would leave only page 1, which is the page that

19     includes the translation of the article in question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it there's no objection to the

21     suggestion.  I see there's not.  Leave is granted.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to inform the parties that I announced

24     yesterday that we will have a late start tomorrow at 10.30 due to

25     technical problems with Courtroom I, that the problems have been resolved

Page 5151

 1     in a different way and that we therefore will start as originally

 2     scheduled at 9.30 in the morning and sit our normal hours.

 3             I also announce to the parties where we were scheduled to sit in

 4     Courtroom I next week, due to these same problems, that without the

 5     change in the schedule, we'll sit in Courtroom III next week, including a

 6     videolink.

 7             Then the -- the Chamber has decided that the Prosecution's

 8     request to -- that leave to reply would be granted to the Defence's

 9     response to the Prosecution's 92 ter motion in relation to the witness

10     Thomas, that a request is granted, but I think we have put it already on

11     the record that it should not become a routine and only if new matters

12     arise the Chamber will in the future grant such requests.

13             Having said this, any other preliminaries?  If not, could the

14     witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Meanwhile, I can put the following on the record:  To the extent

16     the transcript would leave any doubt as to the admission of some

17     associated exhibits for Witness RM110, P494 was admitted into evidence or

18     at least is now admitted into evidence, if there's any doubt, under seal

19     and the same is true for P496.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Thomas.  Before you give

22     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration of which

23     the text is now handed out.  May I invite you to make that solemn

24     declaration.

25             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

Page 5152

 1     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  FRANCIS ROY THOMAS

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Thomas.  Please be seated.

 4     Mr. Thomas, you will first be examined by Ms. Bolton, and Ms. Bolton is

 5     counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.

 6             Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Bolton:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Thomas.  I just want to remind you before we

10     start that you and I obviously speak the same language, and there is a

11     court reporter who is going to be trying to keep up with us, as well as

12     translators, so it's important that we speak a little more slowly than we

13     would normally, and most importantly, that we try to pause between

14     question and answer, okay?

15             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 28524, please.

16        Q.   Sir, you should see before you a document in English.  Do you

17     recognise that document, sir?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And is this a copy of the statement that you provided to the

20     Office of the Prosecution back in May 2009?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Could we go to page 43 in the English version only,

23     please.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters are kindly asking that the pause

25     between questions and answers be observed.

Page 5153

 1             MS. BOLTON:  We've already gone off the rails.

 2        Q.   Do you recognise the signature, sir, on page 43?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is that your signature, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Could I please have 65 ter 19695, please.

 7        Q.   This is a document, sir, entitled "Clarifications and corrections

 8     to statement."  Do you recognise the signature on that document, sir?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   And is that your signature?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Does that document set out the clarifications and corrections

13     that you wish to be made to your statement of 13 May 2009?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15        Q.   And with those clarifications and corrections, would your

16     statement of May 2009 accurately reflect the information you wish to

17     provide to the Office of the Prosecution?

18        A.   Yes, it would.

19        Q.   And if you were asked similar questions as were posed to you in

20     2009, if you were asked those questions today, would you give similar

21     responses?

22        A.   Yes, I would.

23        Q.   And having taken today the solemn declaration affirming that you

24     would be truthful, do you affirm the truthfulness of your May 2009

25     statement?

Page 5154

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honours, I'd ask that both the statement and

 3     the clarifications and corrections be admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, no objection to the clarifications.

 5     We do have an objection to the statement, specifically paragraph 120 of

 6     the statement refers to documents that are not being tendered through

 7     this witness according to the latest list from the Prosecution and which

 8     date at a time period before and after the witness's sojourn in the

 9     Balkans and for which he don't have personal knowledge.  So I submit that

10     the descriptions of those documents and what is contained therein in

11     paragraph 120 should be redacted or stricken from the statement if they

12     are no longer being presented as stand alone documents.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.

14             MS. BOLTON:  I take it that my friend's requesting only

15     redactions of the incidents where we have indicated we are not seeking to

16     introduce those reports in relation to paragraph 120?

17             MR. IVETIC:  And the ones that are outside of his time period, if

18     there are any overlap.  I think most of those are the ones that are not

19     being tendered as associated exhibits.

20             MS. BOLTON:  The Prosecution has no objection to redacting the

21     documents in which respect of which it has indicated it does not

22     intend -- or has not included on its exhibit list.  However, there are

23     four documents -- sorry, five documents, approximately, under

24     paragraph 120 which we are seeking to have introduced through this

25     witness, having --

Page 5155

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please list them, making reference to --

 2     perhaps to the hardcopy pages so that the Chamber is aware of which ones

 3     you're referring to.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Certainly, Your Honours.  Page 40 in the English

 5     version, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  There is a document that's dated 24th July 1993.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the Sitrep Increp.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That one remains, may I take it?

11             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, I would like it to.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MS. BOLTON:  The next document below that is a document from the

14     11th of July, 1994.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Report synthesising everything that came in from the

16     sectors.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Correct.  The document below that from the

18     13th of July, 1994.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the same type of document.  That's how it starts.

20     Yes.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Turning the page, Your Honours, to page 41, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Is a second document -- sorry, is the first

24     document, I believe 11th of August, 1994.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Starting with "This is a typical example of ..."

Page 5156

 1             MS. BOLTON:  Correct.  The second document on the page from the

 2     15th, 16th, it says March 1994 but it's actually corrected to 1995 in the

 3     clarifications and corrections.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Starting with "This is a simple patrol report ..."

 5             MS. BOLTON:  And then turning the page, Your Honour, onto

 6     page 42.  The third document from the bottom, from the

 7     28th of August, 1995.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Starting with a complete -- "this appears to be an

 9     UNMO-prepared document."

10             MS. BOLTON:  Correct.  And then the document that follows from

11     the 30th of August, 1995.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Starting with "This appears to be an UNMO-prepared

13     document" as well.  I can see that it reports 31 persons killed.

14             One second.  You said, sorry, five documents.  If I --

15             MS. BOLTON:  And in fact, it's seven, Your Honours.  I said

16     approximately five, and it's actually seven.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Two I do not object to, so it is actually five, but

18     there are two from July of 1994 which are -- which are within the time

19     period that this witness was on mission.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 11th of July document and the

21     13th of July document?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that is clear and on the record.  The

24     Chamber will decide on it once we have looked at it --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5157

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a bit closer.  All the others, not tendered.

 2             Ms. Bolton, you may proceed, and there -- in -- apart from this

 3     paragraph 120 still to be decided upon in relation to certain

 4     documents ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could numbers already be assigned.  The

 7     Chamber, of course, is at the point to admit into evidence the statement,

 8     but we'll still consider paragraph 120.  For practical purposes, I think

 9     it would be good for you to know, Ms. Bolton.  And the clarification and

10     corrections.  Mr. Registrar, the first one, the report would receive

11     number -- the statement would receive number?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 28524 becomes Exhibit P503, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P503 is marked for identification awaiting a final

14     decision on paragraph 120.

15             Then the clarifications and corrections to the statement.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 19695 becomes Exhibit P504,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I am just looking at -- to -- in relation to

19     paragraph 120.  There is no objection against -- there's only one 15th

20     and the 16th of March document which is still -- P504 is admitted into

21     evidence.

22             Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.

23             MS. BOLTON:  With Your Honours' permission, may the witness have

24     before him a copy of his statement to follow along with?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be given to him.

Page 5158

 1             MS. BOLTON:  And with your leave, Your Honour, may I read a

 2     summary of the witness's evidence into the record.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honours, Mr. Roy Thomas is a retired member of

 5     the Canadian Armed Forces.  He served as the senior military observer in

 6     Sarajevo from October 1993 until the middle of July 1994.  When he

 7     arrived in Sarajevo, the city was already under siege by the

 8     Bosnian Serb Army.  Major Thomas gives evidence about the artillery

 9     assets of the Bosnian Serb forces.  He also gives evidence to the effect

10     that the Bosnian forces with the city were only lightly armed.

11             Major Thomas will testify or has testified in his statement that

12     between October 1993 and the shelling of the Markale market on the

13     5th of February, 1994, the BSA shelled the city of Sarajevo on a regular

14     basis.  Much of the shelling appeared random.  In other words, it did not

15     appear to be aimed at any military object.  And appeared to be designed

16     to terrorise the population.  Major Thomas has authenticated daily

17     situation reports recording some of the shelling activity.  Those

18     situation reports include grid references which have been plotted onto

19     maps of Sarajevo.  Major Thomas has examined those maps during proofing,

20     and I will be asking him some questions about them.  Major Thomas will

21     testify that the UNMOs were not given evidence -- or has testified that

22     UNMO's were not given freedom of movement in all areas on the

23     Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation line, and in particular, they had

24     difficulty accessing an area north-east of the city near Radava.  And in

25     particular, they were prevented from gaining entry to this area for

Page 5159

 1     approximately two weeks prior to the shelling of the marketplace.

 2             After the Markale market shelling took place, both warring

 3     factions entered into a cease-fire.  Major Thomas was present during some

 4     of the negotiations over the locations of the weapon collection points

 5     and has given evidence about his observations of General Galic and will

 6     also give evidence today about his observations of General Milovanovic.

 7             Major Thomas has indicated that after the cease-fire sniping

 8     increased, and his witness statement includes a list of notorious sniping

 9     locations for Bosnian Serb snipers.  And he has authenticated a number of

10     documents relating to sniping and explained how casualties were recorded.

11             Finally, Major Thomas was present in April 1994 at negotiations

12     held which included General Mladic over the Bosnian Serb offensive in the

13     safe area of Gorazde.  He has evidence regarding his observations of

14     General Mladic during those negotiations and indicates in his statement

15     that the UNMOs were taken technically hostage following NATO air-strikes,

16     and I anticipate he will give evidence today that UNPROFOR personnel were

17     treated in a similar manner.

18             That ends the summary, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The translation is more or less finished,

20     Ms. Bolton.  Could you please keep your speed of speech in mind.  If you

21     have any additional questions, please proceed.

22             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Major Thomas, according to your statement, you arrived in the

24     Sarajevo area in October 1993.  Can you tell the Court what the situation

25     was in the Mount Igman area at that time?

Page 5160

 1        A.   Yes.  There was a confrontation because there had been an August

 2     offensive attempting to sever the connection between the Hrasnica area

 3     and the Bosnian holdings in Central Bosnia, and then there was a

 4     cease-fire arranged, or, General Mladic stopped the offensive sometime in

 5     the middle of August and Mount Igman became an area of confrontation

 6     because there was some dispute over a very tactical piece of ground which

 7     dominated the road up to what was the Olympic -- one of the Olympic ski

 8     sites.

 9        Q.   You indicate that there had been an offensive in August 1993.

10     Which forces led the offensive?

11        A.   That was an offensive undertaken by the Bosnian Serb forces.

12        Q.   And from whom or what sources did you obtain your information

13     about the Igman offensive?

14        A.   The first source was a fellow Canadian who was the UNMO military

15     observer operations officer in Sarajevo at the time, and the second

16     person was my team leader who was present before I arrived on the

17     Lima side, Major Pedersen.

18        Q.   And what was your information with respect to the role that

19     General Mladic had played in that offensive?

20        A.   In their opinion, he was the leader of the offensive.  He gave

21     all the orders and directed everything.

22        Q.   I'd like to move to a separate area --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, what the opinion was of the sources is

24     of course interesting to know.  Even more interesting is to know on what

25     they based their opinion.

Page 5161

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Do you know -- His Honour has asked do you know what the

 3     information was on which your sources relied?

 4        A.   Yes.  The UN military observers were requested from the very

 5     start of this offensive to get as much information as possible.

 6     Major Pedersen was responsible for the actual -- providing UNMO teams to

 7     get as close to the conflict as possible, and the Canadian operations

 8     officer that was in Sarajevo would have been responsible for monitoring

 9     the flow of information back from the military observers who would have

10     been deployed in any safe area in Mount Igman that they could get

11     observation on this offensive.  And both of them would be tracking the

12     location of both of the belligerent parties and their own personnel.  In

13     fact, I would suggest without -- that the military observers would know

14     more about the situation than the -- for example, the headquarters in

15     Sarajevo of the UNPROFOR.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Even being in the field does not automatically

17     explain why you could qualify the role of Mr. Mladic as the leader of the

18     offensive.  It's still not entirely clear to me.  If you are able to

19     further explain, please do so.

20             THE WITNESS:  Well, in discussion about what the tactics with

21     these -- both these gentlemen, they told me that the exercise was

22     designed by General Mladic and that he was there to make sure it was

23     carried out the way he wanted it.  And so they felt that this was

24     definitely an offensive that came from him and he made sure it was

25     carried out the way he wanted it.

Page 5162

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's a feeling, apparently.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Well, no, they --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, you said, "... and that he was

 4     there to make sure ..."  Did they talk about his presence during this

 5     operation?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, they did.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   I want to move to an issue of respecting the time period between

11     your arrival in October 1993 and the day of the shelling of the Markale

12     market in February 1994.  So we can focus on that time period.

13             At paragraph 43 and 44 of your statement, you indicate that at

14     the time of your arrival in Sarajevo, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was

15     surrounding the city and that their policy appeared to be one of holding.

16     And you also indicate that you didn't witness any Serb tactical assaults.

17     What do you mean by a tactical assault?

18        A.   What I mean by a tactical assault is where they tried to seize a

19     tactical objective on the ground and, for example, a part of the trench

20     line or some high ground or dominating feature.  Does this satisfy the

21     question?

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. BOLTON:  May I ask that 65 ter 10569 be brought up, please.

24        Q.   While that's being brought up, Major, at paragraph 83 of your

25     amalgamated statement, you made reference to a briefing that you attended

Page 5163

 1     either upon your arrival in Sarajevo or immediately before arriving in

 2     Sarajevo, at which time you were provided some information, including

 3     information about heavy weapons that were in the possession of the

 4     Bosnian Serb forces.  My question is looking at the document that's

 5     before you, is this a document you received during that briefing?

 6        A.   Yes, and you will note that my initials are on the corner, "FRT."

 7        Q.   And looking at page 1, under Sarajevo-Romanija Corps there's a

 8     list of names, Sarajevo 1, Ilidza, Rajlovac, Arty-Pale, et cetera.  What

 9     are those items that are listed?

10        A.   They're listing the brigades of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and

11     some separate artillery groups; for example, artillery Pale, artillery

12     Mokro, and the engineers, and also there's a military police element.

13        Q.   Okay.  And so the other nine names would be the list of brigades?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15             MS. BOLTON:  And may I have, please, page 8 in English and page 9

16     in B/C/S.

17        Q.   The document before you in English is titled "Commanders

18     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps," and has a list of names, including

19     General Galic, Colonel Milosevic, Colonel Indic.  Are any of these

20     individuals persons with whom you had dealings during your time in

21     Sarajevo?

22        A.   Yes.  I dealt mainly with Major Indic and with General Galic, and

23     Major Indic had an assistant in his liaison office which his name isn't

24     shown there, but it's pencilled in underneath, liaison officer.

25        Q.   In subsequent pages there are lists of additional personnel

Page 5164

 1     names.  Could you tell me whether the information that was provided to

 2     you in this document proved to be accurate or inaccurate?

 3        A.   In most cases it proved to be accurate.  I can't verify as I

 4     never met the brigade commander that was over the area of Radava, whether

 5     in fact it was the brigade commander who was there because I never met

 6     him.  So there were several brigade commanders I didn't meet, so I can't

 7     verify all the information, but the names of personalities that I met was

 8     correct.

 9        Q.   And can you just tell us which -- going by the name of the

10     brigade, which commanders you recalled meeting?

11        A.   I remember meeting and dealing with the commanders of the

12     Ilidza brigade, the Vogosca brigade and also the Mount Igman brigade.  I

13     do -- did contact somebody in the brigade based in the area of -- between

14     Pale and Sarajevo, but I can't remember whether in fact I met the brigade

15     commander or his deputy.

16             MS. BOLTON:  I'd ask that this document be tendered in evidence,

17     Your Honour.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 10569 becomes Exhibit P505, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MS. BOLTON:  May have exhibit -- or 65 ter 14963, please.

23        Q.   The document that's being brought up, sir, is a document that you

24     discuss at paragraph 119 of your statement, and you describe it there as

25     a list of weapons observed on the Lima side of the confrontation line.

Page 5165

 1     Which forces were on the Lima side of the confrontation line?

 2        A.   The Bosnian Serb Army was on the Lima side.

 3        Q.   And who prepared this list?

 4        A.   This was done by military observers.

 5        Q.   And can you just assist us with some of the acronyms?

 6        A.   Well, you will see there that -- that the Lima 1 team had in

 7     its -- in its area for which it was responsible, they had found three

 8     120-millimetre mortars, four 82-millimetre mortars.

 9        Q.   Sorry, can I just --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you please slow down for the interpreters.

11     Thank you very much.

12             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

13             MS. BOLTON:

14        Q.   Sorry.  I just want to ask you specifically what some of the

15     short forms stand for.  So could you tell me ARTY?

16        A.   The --

17        Q.   Sorry, A-R-T-Y, ARTY.

18        A.   ARTY stands for artillery; SP stands for self-propelled; HOW

19     stands for howitzer; MBRL, multiple-barrel rocket-launcher; mortar is

20     mortar; Romeo Romeo, or RR, would be recoilless weapon; and AAA is an

21     anti-aircraft gun; and TK is the short form for tank; APC is armoured

22     personnel carrier; the Praga is an armoured vehicle with anti-aircraft

23     weapon system; and the APC, the BOV 1 is also an APC as its specified.

24        Q.   And the only short form you missed was ZIS.  What's that?

25        A.   That's an anti-aircraft system, if I remember rightly.  I can't

Page 5166

 1     be sure on that particular one any more.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 14963 becomes Exhibit P506, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 10957, please.

 9        Q.   The document that is being brought up, sir, is a document you

10     discuss at paragraph 74 of your statement where you identified it as a

11     list of weapons.

12             MS. BOLTON:  The Court's indulgence.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If I may assist, I think it's 19057.

14             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  That's the correct document.  Thank you

15     to my friend.

16        Q.   This is the document, sir, that you describe as a list of

17     possible targets for air-strikes if the weapons weren't moved into

18     weapons collection points following the February cease-fire agreement.  I

19     have a couple questions for you.

20             There's -- first of all, the BSA in this document, that stands

21     for what?

22        A.   Bosnian Serb Army.

23        Q.   And there is a reference to something called an S-P-A-A-G, SPAAG.

24     Do you know what that's a short form for?

25        A.   At this time, no.  It's -- at one time I would have known, I

Page 5167

 1     don't know now, can't remember.  It's a weapon system.

 2        Q.   There is a column that has a series of digits.  It's preceded by

 3     the letters BP, and there are either six digit or eight digit numbers.

 4     What are those numbers?

 5        A.   Those are grid references, and the BP stands for the map sheet

 6     that's being used.

 7        Q.   Have you had experience in your career of calling down artillery?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And when you call down -- sorry.  Was that with which armed force

10     or forces?

11        A.   It's with the Canadian Armed Forces.

12        Q.   And when you call down artillery with the Canadian Armed Forces,

13     how do you identify your target?

14        A.   At the time we identified targets with grid references, normally

15     at minimum of six figure grid references, but we would -- ideally the

16     artillery for accuracy would like ten-figure grid references.

17        Q.   And within what radius can you identify a target with a

18     six-figure grid reference?

19        A.   You can get within a hundred metres.

20        Q.   And how about eight-figure --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you kindly slow down for the

22     interpretation.  It's very precise and there are a lot of figures.  Thank

23     you very much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, could I urge you to also listen to the

25     interpreters.  Please proceed.

Page 5168

 1             MS. BOLTON:  My apologies to the interpreters.

 2        Q.   The question was, sir:  Within an eight-grid reference, how

 3     close -- or how precisely can you identify a target?

 4        A.   Then you're starting to narrow the box.  You're telling the

 5     artillery that it's within a ten-metre box.  So you work from four-figure

 6     grid references, a kilometre, six-figure is a hundred metres, and the

 7     eight-figure is putting it ten metres.

 8        Q.   And when you call down fire in the Canadian Forces, in addition

 9     to providing the grid reference or identifying your target, what other

10     information would you provide?

11        A.   Well, you have -- our procedures would have eyes on the target

12     and after the first volley was fired there would be a damage assessment

13     done which determines the amount of ammunition to be used in the

14     subsequent volleys and perhaps a change in the type of ammunition.  So

15     there would always be a damage assessment made of artillery fire.

16        Q.   You refer in your statement to something called harassing fire.

17     In the Canadian Armed Forces, what level of command can call down

18     harassing fire?

19        A.   Well, the practice is normally it -- harassing fire is called

20     down by a higher headquarters, and you may not actually have eyes on the

21     target, but you're dropping it in an area where there may or may not be

22     enemy traffic such as a bridge crossing or a choke point in the forest,

23     and you're hoping to interfere with movement up to the battle-field or up

24     to a tactical battle.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Could I tender this document, please, Your Honour.

Page 5169

 1             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 19057 becomes Exhibit P507.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Ms. Bolton, I would

 5     have one question.  The third page -- the second page in e-court says

 6     page 3 of 3.  The first page in e-court says page 2 of 3.  Is there any

 7     cover page known or --

 8             MS. BOLTON:  I believe the witness actually indicates in his

 9     statement that the first page of this document --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Was missing.

11             MS. BOLTON:  -- is missing.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I remember to have read that.  Please proceed,

13     and apologies for not recalling this.

14             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 13785, please.

15        Q.   Do you recognise this map, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And this is, I believe, discussed at paragraph 21 of your

18     statement.  The date on this says 6 February 1994.  Does that correctly

19     represent the locations of -- I'm sorry, P2, P5, the observations posts

20     at that date?

21        A.   Actually, it -- it reflects the observation post's locations when

22     I arrived in October.

23        Q.   Looking at the map, could we move the larger version of the map

24     over a bit in English, please.  You're cut off on the right side.  Thank

25     you.

Page 5170

 1             There appears to be a fairly large gap between L3 and L4.  Could

 2     you tell me where Radava is relative to L3 and L4?

 3        A.   Generally almost in the middle in a north-east direction.

 4        Q.   And generally, how much access were you UNMOs given to that area

 5     between L3 and L4 during your time in Sarajevo?

 6        A.   It was the most unknown area in my command.

 7        Q.   Do you recall whether there was any effort by any UNMO to access

 8     the area near Radava immediately preceding the Markale market shelling in

 9     February 1994?

10        A.   Yes.  We had tried for several weeks in advance of that date to

11     send patrols through that area.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.  Now you may proceed.  Could I also ask

13     the witness to take a short break between question and answer.  Please

14     proceed.

15             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   And you indicated you had made efforts to -- or the UNMOs had

17     made efforts to access that area.  And who prevented you from accessing

18     that area?

19        A.   The Bosnian Serb Army check-points, and we failed to get

20     authority from the corps headquarters, or they did not influence the

21     check-points through their brigade commander to let us in that area.

22        Q.   Do I take it from that answer that you tried both at the local

23     level to gain access and also at the corps level?

24        A.   Yes.  In fact, that is the brigade commander I never met, and I

25     was never able to get access to him.

Page 5171

 1        Q.   Was any explanation offered as to why you weren't being afforded

 2     access?

 3        A.   No, not that made sense.

 4        Q.   Any that didn't make sense?

 5        A.   They -- they just said that we didn't need to go there.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  Could I ask that this be tendered as the next

 7     exhibit, please.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now translation has finished.  Ms. Bolton, you

10     really have to slow down.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 13785 becomes Exhibit P508, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MS. BOLTON:  The Court's indulgence.

15                           [Prosecution and Case Manager confer]

16             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I'm just trying to ascertain

17     on which channel the B/C/S translation is so I could hear it.  I've been

18     watching the transcript to try not to go too fast, but I'd like to know

19     what channel the B/C/S is on so I don't go too fast for the translators.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I follow now and then the French booth, and

21     they have serious problems as well.  So if you want to listen to two, or

22     both rather slow down which assists better, but B/C/S is on channel 6.

23     French is on channel 5.

24             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, at paragraph 19 of your statement, sir, you indicate that

Page 5172

 1     one of the tasks of the UNMOs on the ABiH side of the confrontation line

 2     was to monitor incoming and outgoing fire, and on the Lima side the task

 3     was to monitor outgoing fire.

 4             Based on your own observations while in Sarajevo, could you tell

 5     us in what direction the fire tended to be?  Was it -- was it more coming

 6     from the Bosnian-held positions towards the BSA positions, or the

 7     reverse, more fire from the Bosnian Serbs towards the Bosnian forces?

 8        A.   There was more fire from the Bosnian Serbs towards the Bosnians

 9     in the city than the reverse.

10        Q.   Could you give us any estimate as to the ratio?

11        A.   For every Bosnian round fired, there was at least three

12     Bosnian Serb rounds fired back or fired in addition.

13        Q.   Did that ratio ever vary?

14        A.   Well, sometimes there would be Bosnian Serb shelling with no

15     Bosnian rounds at all fired.  And in the case of the Kosevo Hospital,

16     which I think is a point, the -- they would fire one round from the

17     hospital grounds, and the retaliatory rounds would probably be in the

18     neighbourhood of 10 or 12, depending on the fire unit.

19        Q.   You've given us quite a bit of information there, sir.  First of

20     all, when you refer to "they" firing from the Kosevo Hospital, who are

21     you referring to?

22        A.   I'm sorry.  The Bosnians fired from the Kosevo Hospital grounds.

23     I'll say again.  The Bosnians fired from the hospital grounds.

24        Q.   Sorry, I was just waiting for the interpreters.  Did you ever

25     actually see or did any of your military observers actually observe the

Page 5173

 1     Bosnian firing from Kosevo Hospital?

 2        A.   We never observed.  We only heard what we thought were rounds

 3     being fired from there.

 4        Q.   Did you make any effort to actually investigate if they were

 5     firing from those grounds?

 6        A.   Yes.  We tried to catch them firing from the hospital grounds.

 7     We didn't succeed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  No, Ms. Bolton.  French translation has now

 9     finished.

10             MS. BOLTON:

11        Q.   You speak in your statement about efforts by the Bosnians to draw

12     retaliatory fire.  Was there ever an occasion when the Bosnian Serb Army

13     didn't respond to the provocation?

14        A.   No, not that I can remember.  There was never such an occasion.

15     They always retaliated.

16        Q.   And when they retaliated, could you describe the proportionality

17     of the response.

18        A.   Many more rounds.

19        Q.   In your estimate, proportionate or disproportionate?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, I think the witness has given already

21     the proportion of ten against one, and the Chamber is able to consider

22     the proportionality of that.  Please proceed.  Your previous question was

23     asked already and -- or at least the information you were seeking was

24     given already by the witness.

25             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5174

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 23, line 9 and following.  No.  I'm wrong in my

 2     reference.  It was one to ten.  Please proceed.  Twenty-three, line 5.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  Had you finished?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Could you tell me with respect to your observers, were there ever

 7     occasions when they were attempting to count artillery and the

 8     Bosnian Serb Army was using both large rounds and smaller rounds?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what effect, if any, would that have on the ability of your

11     observers to accurately count the incoming fire onto ABH-held territory?

12        A.   The observer would probably not see the impact of the smaller

13     round if a large round arrived just ahead or just after it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, could you find in the next one or two or

15     three minutes a suitable moment for taking a break.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I probably have two more

17     questions in this area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

19             MS. BOLTON:

20        Q.   Did the observers that you had on the Lima side -- or, sorry,

21     yes, the persons, individuals, who were observing outgoing fire on the

22     Lima side have a view of all of the BSA artillery positions around

23     Bosnia -- around Sarajevo?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And how would that affect their ability --

Page 5175

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.

 2             MS. BOLTON:

 3        Q.   -- to count -- to count the rounds?

 4        A.   Well, they might have missed outgoing rounds.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  That would be a convenient place,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

 8     courtroom.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.  Ms. Bolton, are you, at a normal

11     speed of speech, on track as far as time is concerned?

12             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I couldn't hear what you

13     were saying.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether you, at a normal speed of

15     speech, are on track as far as time is concerned?

16             MS. BOLTON:  By normal speed of speech do you mean the speech --

17     speed at which I actually speak or if I'm waiting for the translation?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you take normality as referring to you

19     only, I would say normal speed of speech for me would be the desired

20     speed of speech.

21             MS. BOLTON:  I would be a little behind if I am waiting for the

22     translation, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you may have to think about that, because

24     as you know, this week we have a strict regime as far as timing is

25     concerned, agreed upon by the parties, and please keep that in mind.

Page 5176

 1             We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 4.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 3.19 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 3.42 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5             Ms. Bolton, you have used almost one hour of your one and a half

 6     hours, and in view of the special scheduling arrangement and agreement

 7     this week, the Chamber expects you to stick to the time estimate.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Is there a -- you said almost an hour, Your Honour,

 9     and Ms. Stewart had calculated about 55 minutes.  Do you have an exact

10     time for me?  That would assist.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It was 54 minutes, as far as I was informed, and I'm

12     considering to what extent some of the time I may have taken, but I get a

13     printout.  It should be counted for the Prosecution.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, please proceed.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, at paragraph 47 of your statement, you refer to some local

18     agreements that you tried to make with the commanders of various

19     brigades.  Could you tell me whether any of those agreements ever

20     pertained to issues that would have concerned more than one brigade's

21     zone of responsibility?

22        A.   I was never able to achieve agreements that extended beyond the

23     authority of the local commanders.

24        Q.   And in terms of their actual extent of their command, did it ever

25     involve other brigades?

Page 5177

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   I want to turn now to some of the situation reports or sitreps

 3     that were prepared.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 18762, please.  And for the

 5     assistance of the Court, these are discussed starting at paragraphs 93 to

 6     96 of the witness's statement.

 7             Could we please in the English version go to the second page.

 8     And also in the B/C/S version, please.  The pages are out of order in

 9     e-court, Your Honours.  Sorry, that don't seem to me to match.  Could we

10     go back to page 1 in the B/C/S.  I don't obviously speak B/C/S,

11     Your Honour, but that doesn't seem to me to be the same page.  Can we

12     scroll up to the top?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that -- what we find at the top of this

14     page is found in the English latter third part, civilian usage, Increp

15     levels.  That seems to be where we are.  You found it, Ms. Bolton?  That

16     is under 2.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We start with A, and where it starts B, it's at the

19     top of the B/C/S page.

20             MS. BOLTON:  That's fine.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Sir, this is a daily situation report covering the period of 7th

22     to 8th January 1994, and approximately halfway down the page we see an

23     indication that:

24             "Approximately 50 per cent of impacts recorded were on the front

25     line.  The remainder were directed at residential areas or areas of

Page 5178

 1     regular civilian usage."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move up slightly the B/C/S page.  No, not

 3     the English, the B/C/S.  I mean, look at the top rather than -- yes.  We

 4     need to be at the previous page to follow it for B/C/S speakers.

 5             The portion you read, Ms. Bolton, is not in the B/C/S available.

 6     This seems to be first page in B/C/S, but you have read it out.  Let's

 7     proceed on the basis your reading.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us, sir, who was responsible for deciding if

10     impacts were landing in residential areas versus the front lines?

11        A.   The military observer making the report would decide using his

12     judgement whether it was close to the confrontation line or, without

13     question, in residential areas.

14        Q.   So if something fell within some proximity to the front lines, it

15     would be considered falling on the confrontation line?

16        A.   Normally in most judgements it would be a case of whether the

17     building or where it fell was -- had a -- was in range of support weapons

18     such as machine-guns.

19        Q.   And whose support weapons are you talking about?

20        A.   Well, the party that's being shelled.  If their support weapons

21     were back within the range of a machine-gun, for example, 500 metres,

22     then it could be shelled 500 metres behind the confrontation line,

23     providing the machine-gun had a clear field of fire.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, the part you just read for one reason or

25     another appears on page 5 in e-court instead.  So there is something

Page 5179

 1     fundamentally wrong with the B/C/S version of this document, jumping from

 2     number 2 to number 9 to number 14.  But that portion is found on page 5.

 3             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   May I ask you, sir, in the first paragraph in this document there

 5     are a series of areas identified followed by four-digit numbers.  What do

 6     those four-digit numbers represent?

 7        A.   Those four-digit numbers give you a grid square.  For example,

 8     the first number would be in grid square 8963.

 9        Q.   And that would be a grid square on a map, I take it?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. BOLTON:  And may I please ask that we go to paragraph 9 of

12     this report, which in English I believe is the next page, and it may be

13     page 2 in B/C/S as well.  I'm just going to -- sorry.  That's -- try

14     page 3 in the English version, please.  I'm looking for paragraph 9 in

15     the next page in the B/C/S version as well, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 9 --

17             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the B/C/S starts at page 2 in e-court, at the

19     bottom.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, in paragraph 9, sir, there's an indication that there were a

22     high level of casualties from the shelling on this particular day, which

23     is attributed to the fact -- or appears to be attributed to the fact that

24     the BSA guns were shelling an area used extensively by civilians as a

25     means of avoiding sniper areas.  What area are they referring to?

Page 5180

 1        A.   Immediately behind Sniper Alley and where the -- it opened up

 2     there was a big intersection, and they -- people would wait behind both

 3     sides to cross the intersection.

 4        Q.   Sorry, when you say behind --

 5        A.   Behind wrecked cars, overturned trams, whatever shelter was

 6     there, makeshift shelter.

 7        Q.   When you say behind Sniper Alley, do you mean north, south,

 8     east --

 9        A.   It would be north.

10        Q.   And so you talk about civilians, and you mentioned wrecked cars

11     and overturned trams and taking shelter.  You're talking about civilians

12     taking shelter?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in paragraph 14 on this same document.  So if we could go to

15     the next page in the B/C/S version, please.  Thank you.  There is a

16     commander's assessment that indicates that there may be a link between

17     BiH attacks in Grbavica and what could be deliberate shelling of major

18     civilian walking route.  Whose assessment was that?

19        A.   That was my personal assessment.

20        Q.   And the BiH attacking Grbavica, what's that a reference to?

21        A.   That's a reference to night attacks into the Grbavica area by BiH

22     forces.

23        Q.   And what made you think they might be linked?

24        A.   Because the BiH attacks were posing a difficulty for the

25     Bosnian Serb forces in that we understand they had two battalions there,

Page 5181

 1     but at least three attacks were made at three different areas.  They were

 2     very pressed to defend that area with mechanised equipment, and the most

 3     obvious means of retaliation would be attempting to get this stopped by

 4     shelling the city, although a tactical way would be to shell the built-up

 5     area immediately close to the confrontation line.

 6        Q.   Were they shelling -- the area which they were shelling, was it

 7     an area that was involved in these attacks on Grbavica?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MS. BOLTON:  Could I tender that document, please, Your Honour.

10             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 18762 becomes Exhibit P509, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Could I

14     nevertheless, Ms. Bolton, ask you to review and compare the B/C/S and the

15     English version.  I see that in English as well we jump from one number

16     to another, but certainly there are mistakes.  Please proceed.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Certainly.  May I have 65 ter 10563, please.

18        Q.   Now, this is a situation report you discuss in your statement,

19     sir, and you clarified that the date on the first line, the

20     3rd of January, 1994, was actually the correct date as opposed to the

21     date two lines down.  Does that accord with your recollection?

22        A.   That's correct.  It deals with the 2nd of January to the

23     3rd of January, 1994.

24        Q.   And in this report, in the first paragraph we have an indication

25     of casualties on the BiH side, 14 people killed, including three

Page 5182

 1     children, five males, one female, and five unknown at the time of

 2     writing, and then 22 wounded:  5 children, 14 males, and 3 females.

 3             With respect to who would be considered a civilian casualty,

 4     could you tell us who amongst those would likely have been considered a

 5     civilian casualty?

 6        A.   Well, male -- males of an age that they could be drafted would be

 7     considered possible military casualties given the context.  Of -- all

 8     females and children would be considered civilians under any case, unless

 9     they were actually killed in the front lines.

10        Q.   And again we see a series of grid references or four-digit

11     numbers in this situation report.  With those four-digit numbers, is it

12     possible to plot the locations the shells are falling on a map?

13        A.   It will give you the grid square where those shells fell.

14             MS. BOLTON:  May I have --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- these four-digit grids, they refer to

16     what surface?  What would be the box to say so which they would refer?

17     What would be the size?

18             THE WITNESS:  The box would be one kilometre, and this is to

19     allow the duty officer in Zagreb to zero in on the areas where the

20     shelling is reported, but it doesn't make the distinction.  The big box

21     doesn't make the distinction exactly where those rounds fell.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That's exactly.  So it is precise up to one

23     kilometre --

24             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in the extreme.  Please proceed.

Page 5183

 1             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 19703, page 11 in both -- page 11,

 2     sorry.

 3        Q.   Sir, you have -- sir, you have before you a map of the Sarajevo.

 4     Did you have the opportunity during proofing earlier this week to review

 5     a series of daily situation reports from 1993 and 1994 containing map

 6     grid references?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And did you compare those daily situation reports against a

 9     series of maps that had been prepared by the Office of the Prosecution

10     for the Karadzic case?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And were you asked whether or not the locations cited in the

13     daily situation reports had been correctly plotted?

14        A.   Yes, with the exceptions I noted on a paper I gave to you.

15        Q.   You were given the opportunity, sir, to make comments on a sheet

16     of paper regarding -- or make comments regarding the accuracy of the

17     maps?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And looking at the document before you, is this one of the maps

20     you reviewed yesterday?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   And this map, sir, appears to cover the time period between the

23     2nd of January and the 3rd of January, 1994?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.

25             MS. BOLTON:  With respect to the comments chart, may I have

Page 5184

 1     65 ter 28555, please.

 2        Q.   Does this document accurately set out the comments you had with

 3     respect to the maps that you -- and daily situation reports that you

 4     compared?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And with respect to the situation report we've been dealing with

 7     from the 2nd to 3rd January 1994, there is an indication that the map

 8     squares correspond with the grid references in the situation report; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Document 10562, which is the next document on the comment sheet

12     addresses only the accuracy of two of the map squares.  Do you recall if

13     the other grid references were correctly or incorrectly mapped for that

14     situation report?

15        A.   The remaining squares were correctly mapped.

16             MS. BOLTON:  Your Honour, I would ask that this document, the

17     comment sheet, be introduced as an exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the comment sheet.  I don't know

20     whether the underlying 65 ter numbers are being tendered as associate

21     exhibits.  If they are, subject to the comments and objection that we

22     made in our filing that Your Honours are still considering as to the

23     number of associated exhibits, there's no other objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, the comments, not knowing yet what

25     they come to, there's no objections into admission.

Page 5185

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 28555 becomes Exhibit P510, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Could I ask that 65 ter 10563, which is the daily

 5     sitrep we were discussing, also be marked as an exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the sitrep.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 10563 becomes Exhibit P511, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  And now I'm just

11     looking at the map with the squares.

12             MS. BOLTON:  Yes.  There's -- I'm wondering if you wish me to

13     address that issue.  I will indicate that the Prosecution's going to be

14     moving for the admission of the daily situation reports that are

15     addressed in this chart with one exception because it was not included on

16     our exhibit list for this witness.  And we would also be moving for the

17     admission of the maps that were compared.  I do need to make one

18     clarification with respect to the maps, however, Your Honour, which is

19     that the maps the witness looked at were from the Karadzic case, and

20     therefore they had Karadzic exhibit numbers on them, and the

21     confrontation lines were in different colours than we've used in this

22     case.  And so under 65 ter 19703 I have uploaded as sub A identical maps

23     to those that the witness compared except we've removed the references to

24     the Karadzic exhibit numbers and we've reversed the colours so they

25     correspond with what we've been using.  So it would make sense to me that

Page 5186

 1     we actually introduce 19703A into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we have that MFI'd for the time being so

 3     that we could have a look at it.

 4             Mr. Registrar, the A map, to say so.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Becomes Exhibit P512, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P512 is marked for identification.

 7             Please proceed, Ms. Bolton.

 8             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just to be clear, 19703A

 9     includes a series of maps, 11 maps, that correspond to the situation

10     reports.  So ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Them being MFI'd at this point.  We will have a look

12     at it at a later stage.

13             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.  The one situation or one situation

14     report that the Prosecution is not seeking to have tendered because we

15     didn't include it on our exhibit list is, for the record, 65 ter 13782,

16     and the corresponding map has already been removed from the proposed

17     exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all on the record.  Please proceed.  I think

19     you've got approximately five to six minutes left.  Please proceed.

20             MS. BOLTON:  Ms. Stewart's indicating a different time.  She's

21     saying I have about 15 minutes left, so could we get the official time

22     count?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Registrar -- before the break, it was

24     54 minutes.  We resumed slightly after, approximately 17 minutes to 4.00,

25     but I'll have it verified.  Perhaps you use your time as best as you can

Page 5187

 1     at this moment.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  I'll do my best, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   With respect to the cease-fire agreement, sir, that you discuss

 4     at paragraphs 97 to 100 of your amalgamated statement, you refer to

 5     accompanying General Soubirou to a series of meetings with the

 6     Bosnian Serbs regarding the number and location of weapon collection

 7     points, and this would be in February 1994.  Do you recall those

 8     meetings?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And do you recall whether General Galic was present at any of

11     those?

12        A.   Yes, he was.

13        Q.   And do you recall whether General Milovanovic had any involvement

14     with those discussions?

15        A.   I don't recall him at the meetings.  I do recall him being at a

16     weapons collection point.

17        Q.   And which weapons collection point?

18        A.   I don't know -- remember which one.

19        Q.   And what did he appear to be doing there?

20        A.   He was there as part of the delegation from the

21     Bosnian Serb Army, and he was unhappy with that weapons collection point.

22     They were inspecting the proposed weapons collection point at that time.

23        Q.   And as a result of your interactions, did you have any impression

24     as to whether General Galic had the authority on his own to determine the

25     locations of those weapon collection points?

Page 5188

 1        A.   No.  I think he was always referring the final decision to higher

 2     authority.

 3        Q.   And what do you base that on?

 4        A.   The fact that we had the Chief of Staff from the higher

 5     headquarters present doing a ground recce, and the fact that there often

 6     seemed to be a delay in the decision, although the points did not seem to

 7     be worth delaying about.

 8        Q.   So when you talk about delaying in a decision, who was delaying

 9     in a decision?

10        A.   That would be the corps commander, General Galic.

11        Q.   Ultimately the parties entered into a cease-fire agreement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And did that have any effect on the frequency of shelling of the

14     city of Sarajevo?

15        A.   There was no further shelling after the cease-fire agreement.

16        Q.   And as a result of that -- sorry, was that agreement entered into

17     by General Galic or a higher authority?

18        A.   It was agreement made actually between General Rose and the two

19     belligerent corps commanders that as of such and such a time the

20     following day, there would be no more artillery fire, and that's the part

21     of the agreement that both sides adhered to from the start.  There was a

22     subsidiary part of the agreement which required heavy weapons on both

23     sides to be collected into weapons collection points.

24        Q.   And do you know who -- who authorised the Bosnian Serbs to enter

25     into that part of the agreement?

Page 5189

 1        A.   That -- I do not know exactly who authorised it, but I suspect

 2     that probably it was a higher headquarters that decided that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton you asked for the exact time.  You have

 4     seven minutes left at this very moment.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   With respect to sniping, after the cease-fire agreement was

 7     entered into, did that have any effect on the frequency of sniping?

 8        A.   Yes, it did.

 9        Q.   And what was the effect?

10        A.   The effect was that the -- both sides used sniping as a means of

11     influencing or trying to influence the behaviour of the other side.

12        Q.   My question was about the frequency.

13        A.   It -- it increased.  It kept increasing.

14        Q.   And at paragraph 66 of your statement, you describe visiting an

15     area called Sharpstone, which was a Bosnian Serb sniping position

16     according to your statement, and you say there:

17              "I do not even know the rhyme or reason of why they picked

18     individuals to be killed."

19             Were you talking, when you referred to individuals, about

20     soldiers or civilians?

21        A.   Civilians in that case.

22        Q.   Did you ever make any attempt to locate an observation post near

23     to Sharpstone?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Were you allowed to do so?

Page 5190

 1        A.   We were never allowed to do so, but the negotiations were well

 2     advanced until the air-strike.

 3        Q.   And who was it you were negotiating with?

 4        A.   I was negotiating through Major Indic and local representatives

 5     on the ground of the brigade responsible.

 6             MS. BOLTON:  May I have 65 ter 10567, please.

 7        Q.   Sir, this is a document called "Summary of sniping."  Could you

 8     tell us whether or not this was a comprehensive list of all the sniping

 9     casualties in Sarajevo during the time period covered by the document?

10        A.   This is a list of the casualties that we recorded.

11        Q.   Did you -- was UNMOs involved in all of the casualties from

12     sniping?

13        A.   No.  Some would have been seen by other UNPROFOR forces.

14        Q.   And would -- do you believe that UNPROFOR and UNMOs captured all

15     of that sniping activity?

16        A.   I can't speak for the other UNPROFOR elements.  We tried to

17     capture all the reports of sniping that we observed ourselves.

18        Q.   If you didn't actually observe it then?

19        A.   Then we didn't report it and we did the follow-up of

20     investigation too.

21        Q.    Looking at --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, could you ask the witness what year this

23     covers?

24             THE WITNESS:  The year is 1994, sir.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 5191

 1             MS. BOLTON:

 2        Q.   Looking at page 1 of the document, under March 23rd, there is a

 3     indication "1 X BIH C W," and then a six-digit number.  The reference to

 4     BiH, what does that mean?

 5        A.   That stands for Bosnian.

 6        Q.   So what side of the confrontation line would that individual have

 7     been on?

 8        A.   It would have been someone in the city.

 9        Q.   Did you have the opportunity to locate that grid -- or that

10     six-digit grid reference number yesterday?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What area of the city is that near?

13        A.   Now I've forgotten.  I did locate it yesterday.

14        Q.   That's fine, sir.  Finally, sir, I want to move on to the issue

15     of April 1994 and the attack on Gorazde which you discuss in your

16     statement.

17             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, could this be tendered as an exhibit,

18     Your Honour.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 10567 becomes Exhibit P513, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Could I have 65 ter 09729, please.  Page 3 in both

24     English and B/C/S.

25        Q.   While that's coming up, sir, you indicate at paragraph 111 of

Page 5192

 1     your statement that you attended some meetings in April -- between 7th

 2     and 9th of April, 1994, at the airport, and those meetings pertained to

 3     the Bosnian Serb attack on the safe area of Gorazde.  And you also

 4     indicate that General Mladic was one of the persons in attendance.  Do

 5     you recall whether there were other VRS officials in attendance?

 6        A.   I can't really remember at this time because General Mladic was

 7     the dominant figure, and I didn't take note of the other people.

 8        Q.   What do you mean by that?

 9        A.   Well, he appeared to be the one that was speaking for everything.

10     Or if not, he was referred to.

11        Q.   You indicate at paragraph 112 of your statement that after the

12     NATO air-strikes, 50 of your UNMOs were taken - what you call -

13     technically hostage.  Could you tell me if those UNMOs were only in the

14     Sarajevo area or also in other areas or ...

15        A.   I can only speak for Sector Sarajevo UNMOs, but we had military

16     observers in Zepa and Gorazde.  The ones in the safe area, of course,

17     were not taken hostage, but we had a military observer travelling between

18     Zepa and Sarajevo, and he was taken hostage.  He was -- once he was in

19     Serb territory, he was taken hostage.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, I gave you the exact time and also that

21     the Chamber expected you to stick to the time in view of the special

22     agreement on scheduling this week.

23             MS. BOLTON:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have perhaps one or two minutes

24     left.  Could I ask for an exception?  We did have some difficulty

25     bringing up some documents.

Page 5193

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You should ask the Defence, as a matter of fact.

 2     One or two minutes is -- no objection from the Defence.  They look

 3     together with me on the clock.

 4             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MS. BOLTON:

 7        Q.   This -- sir, could you tell us if other UN personnel were also

 8     taken -- treated in a similar manner?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The document you have on the screen, sir, you'll see is purported

11     to be from Commander Mladic, and if we could have page 1, please, both

12     English and B/C/S.  In paragraph 1, sir, there is first above the

13     numbered paragraph 1 an indication -- sorry.  Could we scroll up to the

14     top of the page, please.  In the B/C/S you can see the date is the

15     13th 04, 94, and you can now see that in English.  We have a reference to

16     the fact that this order is being issued due to some misunderstandings

17     about the order of the Main Staff, number 02259.  And then paragraph 1

18     states:

19             "UNMO and the members of the UNPROFOR are to be accommodated in

20     appropriate premises outside of the facilities where they have been

21     stationed to date, that is, in the military facilities which are a

22     potential target of the NATO Air Force, as per your choice.  The premises

23     where the observers and members of the UN will be stationed have to be

24     secured by guards and their movement must be completely limited."

25             Did any of -- were any of your UNMOs confined in areas that might

Page 5194

 1     have been potential targets for air-strikes?

 2        A.   I -- yes, in maybe one or two cases.

 3        Q.   Which areas were those?

 4        A.   Well, Lukavica headquarters.

 5             MS. BOLTON:  If I could ask that that be marked as an exhibit,

 6     Your Honour, and that concludes my examination.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I don't know that the witness has

 8     authenticated the document or added any personal knowledge to verify the

 9     contents of the same, and I note that the copy is not signed.  The

10     original is not signed.  There's no signature.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.

12             MS. BOLTON:  If there's an issue as to authenticity, I'm content

13     that it be MFI'd.  As for the witness confirming, he has provided

14     information that the treatment of some of his personnel was consistent

15     with the order that appears before us.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be ...

18             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09729 becomes Exhibit P514, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P514 is marked for identification.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I take it, Your Honour, that we would address the

21     issue of the associated exhibits after cross-examination?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be the best to do, and Mr. Ivetic

23     seems to be agreed to that as well.

24             Then, Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

25             MR. IVETIC:  I am, Your Honour.

Page 5195

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may proceed.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 3        Q.   First of all, good afternoon, Mr. Thomas.  I'd like to please

 4     remind you that since we both speak the same language, we have to try to

 5     ensure a pause between the question and the answer to assist those that

 6     are trying to assist us with creating a record of these proceedings, and

 7     I'd like to begin.

 8             First of all, sir, prior to your deployment to Sarajevo on

 9     October the 15th, 1993, did you have occasion to receive any instruction

10     or training relative to the specific constitutional or political

11     framework of the SFRY or the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When and where did this training take place?

14        A.   Primarily in Canada, a two-week training session.

15        Q.   And how about the military structure of the JNA, the

16     Territorial Defence system, or the so-called Army of BiH?  Did you

17     receive any special training or instruction as to their structure?

18        A.   What I didn't get in the course, I made a point of looking it up

19     in some American military handbooks that I had access to.

20        Q.   I would like to briefly focus on one aspect of the training that

21     you did receive, I believe, before your deployment to the region.  Am I

22     correct that during your briefings in Canada you were advised of the

23     existence of storage sites of ammunition in each locality in Bosnia due

24     to the nature of their Territorial Defence concept?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5196

 1        Q.   Now, am I correct that the briefing did not, however, include

 2     information about the precise locations of such stores of munitions?

 3        A.   No, because it was considered a different security level than we

 4     needed.

 5        Q.   And I'd like to call up a portion of your testimony from the

 6     Galic proceedings.  It's going to be 65 ter 1D00428, and it should be

 7     page 29 in e-court if my notes are accurate.  And this should be

 8     transcript page 9437.  I see it is.

 9             And with respect to your answer to the question there about

10     ammunition dumps, you say:

11             "I don't know about the exact location of ammunition depots.  I

12     do know that in my preparatory briefing in Canada, we were advised that

13     there was enough ammunition in the stocks of the Yugoslav home defence

14     forces for this war to be carried on for 40 years."

15             Sir, can you affirm this prior testimony of yours to be true and

16     correct as to the information given to you in Canada about the quantities

17     of munitions stored in the stocks of the Yugoslav home defence forces?

18        A.   Yes, I can, although I can't divulge the source.  It was an

19     intelligence source.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir, I appreciate that, although I caution we need to

21     have a space between my question and your answer.

22             If we can also scroll down on the -- on the bottom of this page.

23     I'd like to -- I'd like to ask about something that you went on to give

24     information about, starting at line 12, and I will read into the record

25     the question and your answer:

Page 5197

 1             "Q.  Witness, when you use the expression in English 'the

 2     Yugoslav home defence forces,' are you referring to what was known as the

 3     Territorial Defence?

 4             "A. It -- yes.  It is the concept that there was a manoeuvre army

 5     which would manoeuvre around the Yugoslavs who defended their own home

 6     locality after they had served their conscription -- conscript time.  To

 7     make this possible on the Swiss model, which I am sure you are familiar

 8     with, there was a great series of depots, ammunition storage at the very

 9     local level, because the concept rests on the idea that locally trained

10     people can respond to an emergency and defend their own locality without

11     depending on support from outside.  This in turn meant that large

12     quantities of small arms ammunition and artillery ammunition for the

13     calibres that we are talking about, 120 millimetre, and even guns and

14     field pieces, would be able in especially an urban area like Sarajevo,

15     which would be a key part of such a concept, because motorised forces

16     would by- pass Sarajevo if it was strongly defended."

17             Sir, again without divulge the identity of the source, could you

18     affirm for us that this selection I have just read from the -- from your

19     prior testimony is true and correct as to the understanding that was

20     given to you before your deployment of the ammunition depots?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, would you agree with me, sir, that unless a party in

23     Sarajevo, or anywhere in Bosnia for that matter, specifically advised you

24     of a location of one of these caches of ammunition, you, in the sense of

25     the UNMO mission, would not have a reason to know about it?

Page 5198

 1        A.   No, we would not have a reason to know about it unless I had been

 2     prior briefed.

 3        Q.   And am I correct, sir, that the UNMO mission itself did not task

 4     you with investigating the location of such ammo dumps?

 5        A.   No.  The United Nations, as you know, has a practice:  They don't

 6     engage in intelligence activities.

 7        Q.   And would you agree that such caches or depots of ammunition

 8     could be potentially legitimate military targets depending on where they

 9     are located?

10        A.   I would agree with the caveat that by the time I arrived I would

11     suspect that all the brigades on both sides had taken out the ammunition

12     from those depots and issued it out to the soldiers and had stored it in

13     a location close to the front lines.

14        Q.   Would any such locations where ammunition was stored be

15     camouflaged or masked perhaps even in civilian-looking buildings or

16     areas?

17        A.   Well, having never been able to discover --

18             MS. BOLTON:  Sorry.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.

20             MS. BOLTON:  I have -- well, perhaps the witness was going to

21     answer, but I'd say it calls for speculation on the part of the witness,

22     would any such locations be camouflaged or masked.

23             THE WITNESS:  If I can answer that, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.

25             Mr. Ivetic, concern is speculation.  Perhaps we ask the witness

Page 5199

 1     first whether he has any knowledge about such locations where ammunition

 2     may have been stored, be camouflaged or masked.

 3             Do you have any knowledge about that?

 4             THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   Am I correct, sir, that the UNMO mission did not even suspect any

 8     military factories existed within the city of Sarajevo because in your

 9     view they did not make military sense?

10        A.   I would say that, yes, our organisation did not suspect there was

11     a functioning military weapons manufacturing plant in Sarajevo because it

12     would be too easily targeted.

13        Q.   And am I correct that since your time in Sarajevo as a witness in

14     several proceedings before this Tribunal, you now have learned of the

15     existence of the Zrak, Z-r-a-k, factory in Sarajevo which produced

16     optical instruments for sniper weapons?

17        A.   That's what you say.

18        Q.   Has it been brought to your attention in prior proceedings?

19        A.   It has been brought to my attention in prior proceedings, but it

20     doesn't mean I have confirmed it nor believe it.

21        Q.   Would such a factory in Sarajevo, which the UNMO mission was

22     unaware of and which you do not confirm, if it did exist, would that be a

23     legitimate target for an opposing military?

24        A.   Yes, it would be.

25        Q.   Do you permit, sir, that there could have been other such

Page 5200

 1     factories in the Sarajevo and surrounding area that might have been

 2     missed and therefore unconfirmed by UNMO and yourself?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, is it not the essence of that you miss

 4     something that you don't know, and to say, Is it possible that you do not

 5     know something?  I mean every human being who says, It's impossible that

 6     I do not know a certain thing, so therefore whether it makes any sense to

 7     ask this from the witness.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I agree, and I will withdraw that question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   Sir, did you have knowledge of the Igman factory for ammunition

12     located in Konjic just to the south of Sarajevo?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Let me ask you about Gorazde, sir, since that was also part of

15     your zone of responsibilities.  Do you know or did you know about the

16     Pobjeda factory for ammunition in Gorazde, the one of three that existed

17     in the SFRY ammunition manufacturing industry?

18        A.   I was pointed out a factory which was not functioning which

19     people told me on the ground had been a munition factory, but it

20     certainly wasn't a munitions factory when I saw it.  It had holes in the

21     roof.

22        Q.   Did you have occasion in Gorazde to have the Kopaca [phoen],

23     Sopatica [phoen], or Petigor [phoen] location identified for you which

24     was the reserve rear command of the SFRY high command, a significant

25     bunker and command structure?

Page 5201

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Would such structures, if they existed, be legitimate military

 3     targets for an opposing force?

 4        A.   Yes, and if Your Honour would give me the caveat.  If it was

 5     known, so widely known, why was it not shelled more before I got there?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, it seems that you are more or less

 7     engaging -- at least you're seeking to engage in a discussion with

 8     Mr. Ivetic where you are supposed to answer his questions.

 9             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   I would like to move to a related topic since we're talking about

12     ammunition.  Did you know of the existence of a tunnel that linked the

13     interior of Sarajevo city with the outside of the city under the control

14     of the Bosnian Presidency forces and called the Dobrinja-Butmir tunnel?

15        A.   No, I could not confirm it.  I sent patrols at both suspected

16     sides and we had great difficulty in getting through Bosnian check-points

17     to confirm anything.

18        Q.   I appreciate the distinction you're making.  Am I correct that

19     although at the time you did not know about it, since then you have

20     gained knowledge that such a tunnel did exist and was used to bring in

21     supplies by the Bosnian Presidency forces?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   Do you recall, sir, if it was a constant complaint that you heard

24     from the Bosnian Serb side that the Bosnian Presidency forces were using

25     tunnels to either bring in weapons, munitions, or trying to outflank the

Page 5202

 1     Serb lines?

 2        A.   Yes.  The tunnel allegation was persistently brought up at

 3     meetings between both sides and we continually tried to find the entrance

 4     and were continually getting stopped and prevented from seeing that.

 5        Q.   And in this instance, sir, when you say you were continually

 6     being stopped and prevented from seeing it, prevented by which opposing

 7     force?

 8        A.   By the Bosnian forces.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like at this time to call up 65 ter 1D00426.

10        Q.   And while we wait for that, sir, I can give you some introductory

11     information.  This is a publication entitled "In Harm's Way.  The Buck

12     Stops Here:  Senior Commanders on Operations," and is edited by a

13     Colonel Bernd Horn.  And we see the cover page on the screen now.  Sir,

14     are you familiar with this publication?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And did you, in fact, contribute an article based -- within this

17     publication?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have just received a note that it's

20     time for the break.  I do not know if that's accurate.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I had two or three minutes on my mind, but if

22     this would be a suitable time then we take the break.

23             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour.  I have a significant amount of

24     questioning on this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then could the witness be escorted out of the

Page 5203

 1     courtroom.  We take a break, Mr. Thomas of approximately 20 minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 5 minutes past 5.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 4.44 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 5.06 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7     Meanwhile, I use the time for the following matter.  It relates to

 8     Exhibit P6, which was MFI'd on the 16th of July.

 9             We heard on the 16th of July that the Prosecution would try to

10     obtain a copy of the document, which is a Security Council Resolution, in

11     a format similar to that of most Security Council Resolutions, and the

12     Chamber would like to be updated by the Prosecution on the matter, not

13     necessarily at this very moment but soon.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir, before the break we had opened up this document.  I'd like

18     to now turn to the third page in e-court and ask if you recognise

19     chapter 1 of this publication as an article that you authored based on

20     your experiences in Sarajevo as part of the UNMO mission?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I'd now like to turn to page 11 of the document and focus on

23     bottom of page 17 of the actual text, which would be the right-hand side

24     of this page in e-court, and address this selection that begins, sir:

25              "Sometimes there are things that you do that fall in an ethical

Page 5204

 1     grey area.  One such incident involved knowledge of an extensive tunnel

 2     system on the front lines.  For months my personal reconnaissance on both

 3     sides of the line had led me to believe that the Bosnians had constructed

 4     a substantial tunnel through which an assault could be mounted on the

 5     thinly held Bosnian Serb lines opposite their own.  In almost my last

 6     days in Sarajevo," and we have to go to the next page, "I was shown this

 7     tunnel system by the local commander who knew that I was leaving on my

 8     word that I would not divulge the exact location.  Curiosity led me to

 9     agree.  Subsequently, I did indicate to my successor that this was an

10     area requiring careful scrutiny due to the presence of such a tunnel

11     system without giving its precise grid.  There were other such incidents

12     involving team members.  The commander must be able to live with himself

13     and do what he, or she, thinks is right.  There are few who can offer

14     practical advice to the SMO on the matter of ethics."

15             First of all, sir, can I ask you if you can confirm the accuracy

16     and truthfulness of this selection from your article --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Again, we have to wait for the translators and the transcript

19     transcribers, so please try to observe a pause.

20             In this article you say that "there were other such incidents

21     involving team members."  Could you elaborate for us if these other

22     incidents also involved knowledge of tunnels used by the

23     Bosnian Presidency forces?

24        A.   None of the other incidents involved tunnels used by the Bosnian

25     forces.

Page 5205

 1        Q.   And focusing on this incident that you have the personal

 2     knowledge of, are you at liberty now to divulge the approximate location

 3     of this tunnel system?

 4        A.   Yes, I'll do so right now.  It's Nedzarici in the -- not too far

 5     from the Rainbow Hotel.

 6        Q.   Was there a civilian area nearby or did it pass through a

 7     civilians?

 8        A.   The tunnel went underground in no man's land.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, is there dispute about the location of

10     the tunnel between the parties?

11             MR. IVETIC:  I'm heaving about it for the first time,

12     Your Honours.  It's not something that was included in the statement or

13     the article.  That's why I asked the question.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but I'm asking whether there is any dispute

15     between Prosecution and Defence about the existence and the location of a

16     tunnel which I understand to be a tunnel under the airport.

17             MR. IVETIC:  This is a different tunnel, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a different tunnel.  Then it's good that we

19     deal with that.  Therefore, it's also good that I -- it's a system of

20     tunnels.  Yes, okay.  Please proceed.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   And, first of all, perhaps it's best for the witness to confirm.

23     Am I correct that this is a different tunnel than the one that was under

24     the airport?

25        A.   Absolutely.  This was, as I stated in my earlier testimony, the

Page 5206

 1     Serbs accused the Bosnians of making tunnels towards their front lines,

 2     and the -- this was one of the excuses they used for sniper fire.  And I

 3     wish to confirm that, in fact, they were making tunnels towards the

 4     Bosnian lines, and after being under foot so long on this particular

 5     location, the commander, when he knew I was leaving, finally showed me a

 6     tunnel which would have allowed about three soldiers abreast to pop up in

 7     no man's land to attack position.  And the entrance to this tunnel was

 8     almost at the very edge of the confrontation line.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I should have known that because Nedzarici is of

10     course not the same as Butmir.  That's clear.  Please proceed.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13        Q.   If I can just ask you to clarify, sir, at temporary transcript

14     page 56, line 6, you say "towards the Bosnian lines," am I correct that

15     the tunnel actually went toward the Bosnian Serb lines?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And you mentioned the entrance.  Was the entrance to this tunnel

18     system camouflaged or masked?

19        A.   The entrance was masked by a building.

20        Q.   What kind of building was it?

21        A.   It was a tall building that was pretty well abandoned and it was

22     right close to the confrontation line.  In fact, that's -- that's how

23     they secured it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, could I remind you again about these

25     little pauses.

Page 5207

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Sorry.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   This building that had been abandoned, did it appear to be a

 4     civilian-type structure?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   Your Honour, can I make an observation here at this point?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if at the end of your testimony there is a

 9     need to add anything to your testimony, you will have an opportunity to

10     do so --

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but let's focus at this moment on the questions

13     that Mr. Ivetic puts to you.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   I would like to now focus for a few questions on the issue of

16     troop rotations and troop replenishments at the front lines.  Would you

17     agree with me that such rotations or movements of troops were a

18     significant strategic phenomena in a military sense?

19        A.   You're asking me to comment on strategy?

20        Q.   No.  Would you agree with me that it is a matter of high military

21     significance to have the ability to move troops in to replenish your

22     front lines and rotate the troops that are located therein, generally

23     speaking?

24        A.   Yes.  It's a -- you want to be able to move your -- that's what

25     harassing fire tries to stop, but if -- it depends on how close they are

Page 5208

 1     to the front line, whether it's tactical or operational or if they're far

 2     away, strategic.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I don't think that harassment fire was

 4     part of your question, was it, or --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  It wasn't but I was getting to that.  He's

 6     anticipating my question, so ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I would very much like the witness to focus

 8     on your questions.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Sorry, Your Honour.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   And so we can tie the ends together, am I correct that harassing

12     fire would be the targeting of such rotating or moving troops to try to

13     prevent them or at least discourage them from reaching their appointed

14     locations at the front lines?

15        A.   Not that close to the front lines.  You would be firing to either

16     neutralise or destroy them if you were -- if they were close to the

17     confrontation line.

18        Q.   And if they were not close to the confrontation line, if they

19     were further in towards the deep territory or towards the residential

20     area of Sarajevo?

21        A.   It depends on obviously to classify -- it depends on when you

22     think the supplies are moving forward.  Most usually they are moved at

23     night, usually at a time they don't think that you have visibility on the

24     target area.

25        Q.   Based upon your experiences and knowledge, would you agree with

Page 5209

 1     me that the Bosnian Presidency forces in Sarajevo had to be moved from

 2     more interior positions towards the front lines?

 3        A.   Yes, but they had -- their equipment and ammunition must have

 4     been in place because I never once saw them moving with either ammunition

 5     or weapons.

 6        Q.   And would you agree with me that such troop movements would

 7     likely be accomplished with a certain degree of camouflage such that

 8     perhaps even the UNMO mission might miss them?

 9        A.   We rarely missed the movement of that many people moving in some

10     kind of organised manner.

11        Q.   Do I recall correctly that one time during the evening you

12     inadvertently come across precisely one such large group of

13     Bosnian Muslim troops advancing towards the front line in new French kit?

14        A.   In what appears to -- what I assumed was French kit, to make that

15     correction.  I've dealt with it and in my testimony.  Yes.  At night as

16     would be expected, a force of 70 soldiers or more was moving up to the

17     front line.

18        Q.   With regard to this kit that appeared to be French, and I guess

19     we should -- for the layperson kit is a uniform and equipment in a

20     military sense?

21        A.   Yes, I think -- I think that question about the French kit's

22     already been addressed in my statement.

23        Q.   I'm asking for clarification.

24        A.   Okay.

25        Q.   Was this equipment, this French -- this seemingly French

Page 5210

 1     equipment something you had previously seen among the forces of the

 2     Bosnian Presidency in Sarajevo, or did it appear to be newly acquired

 3     equipment?

 4        A.   The only thing I can reply to that is exactly what I said in my

 5     statement:  It was the first time I saw people wearing this equipment

 6     turn out to be Bosnians.  The rest of your questions, associated

 7     questions, I can't answer.

 8        Q.   Fair enough.  Would you agree with me there were approximately

 9     25.000 armed Bosnian Presidency soldiers that were located in Sarajevo as

10     part of the 1st Corps?

11        A.   Yes.  That was the -- also stated in one of our documents.  One

12     of the documents that I provided the Court.

13        Q.   Would these men have been legitimate military targets?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And am I correct that some -- many of these men did not wear

16     uniforms or only wore parts of uniforms?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And by the same token, many civilians, including women and

19     elderly and kids, wore uniforms or partial uniforms?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Would you agree that such a situation could cause a degree of

22     confusion in identifying combatants?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you have knowledge of a significant Mujahedin force of

25     Islamic fighters from outside of Bosnian that were located near Sarajevo?

Page 5211

 1        A.   No.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  If we can return to the document that is still up on

 3     our screen in harm's way 1D426, and if I can turn to the fourth page of

 4     the document in e-court.

 5        Q.   And while we wait for that sir, I will be asking you about the

 6     second to last paragraph of page 2 of the text.  It's the bottom of the

 7     page.  There we go.  And I read for you, sir, the quotation I'm

 8     interested in:

 9             "In Sarajevo itself, a Croatian brigade had responsibility for

10     holding part of the defensive perimeter against the Bosnian Serbs.  Only

11     30 kilometres away in Kiseljak Croatians in that pocket were allied with

12     Bosnian Serbs against Bosnian government forces and were even suspected

13     of lobbing the odd shell into Sarajevo, hitting on occasion other

14     Croats."

15             Now, first of all, sir, is this a true and accurate rendition of

16     the knowledge that you have on this topic?

17        A.   It's -- yes.

18        Q.   When you say the Croatians in Kiseljak, am I correct that we're

19     talking about the HVO or the Croat Defence Union as it was called?

20        A.   We are talking about what I call Bosnian Croats.

21        Q.   Fair enough.  And the Bosnian Croats were a third party to the

22     conflict, that is to say they had a structure separate and apart from the

23     VRS.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Here you identify the force of Croats, the Bosnian Croats, as

Page 5212

 1     being allied with the Bosnian Serbs.  Would you be surprised to learn

 2     that the HVO or Croat Defence Union had previously been considered to be

 3     one of the two recognised armed forces of the

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the Bosnian Presidency?

 5        A.   I can't answer that question.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you about something during the time period that

 7     you were there.  Are you aware that the United States under the auspices

 8     of Ambassador Galbraith brokered the Washington Accords between

 9     August of 1993 and February of 1994 to create the so-called Croat-Muslim

10     federation precisely between the Bosnian Croats in Kiseljak and the

11     Bosnian Presidency forces in Sarajevo?

12        A.   I was aware not that it had been brokered by the United States,

13     but I was aware of an agreement between the Bosnians and Croats in

14     Central Bosnia because I lost some of my team members to go serve there

15     instead.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   In -- in February, March 1994.

18        Q.   Do you recall if this shelling by the Croatians in Kiseljak would

19     have occurred before or after that date?

20        A.   I'm sure it occurred before that date.

21        Q.   And here in the article we -- you say that they were "suspected

22     of lobbing the odd shell."  Am I correct that it is more than just

23     suspected, that the UNMO mission during your tenure confirmed that the

24     Croatian forces in Kiseljak several times shot heavy weapons that landed

25     inside the Papa side of Sarajevo?

Page 5213

 1        A.   No.  It wasn't UNMO confirmed.  The only reason that we suspected

 2     was the calibre of round was different, and also there were reports of

 3     French guns that were owned by the Croatians in Kiseljak firing, and we

 4     made a correlation between the two.  So that's why we maintained

 5     suspected.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I have to ask you to slow down for the

 7     interpreters because it's at the speed of speech.  So apart from the

 8     breaks, small pauses, also to show down your speed of speech, Mr. Ivetic,

 9     and if you, in addition, take a bit of a longer pause after that, that

10     would be appreciated.  Please proceed.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I will do my best.  And

12     I apologise to the translators and to the transcribers.

13        Q.   I'd like to flesh out your answer a little bit by pulling up

14     1D424.  This is a transcript of your testimony from the Karadzic trial,

15     and I'd like to have page 63 in e-court of this 65 ter document, which

16     should correlate to transcript page 6857 and I'd like to focus on lines 7

17     through 21.  And this is your answer in that proceeding on this topics,

18     sir, and it begins:

19              "We do know that shells fell on the city from Croatian

20     artillery, and that was identified and reported separately.  And now I'm

21     surprised to hear from Dr. Karadzic that the Croatians fired on Ilidza,

22     when we, in the year 1993, identified Croatian shells falling on Sarajevo

23     proper.  And that isn't in any of the documentation, because it's not

24     part of this investigation.  But now that Dr. Karadzic raised Croatian

25     involvement, I feel justified in bringing that point in.

Page 5214

 1              "Judge Morrison:  What was the frequency of Croatian shelling

 2     during your period in Sarajevo?

 3              "The witness:  The only reason -- not very often.  The only

 4     reason I remember this distinctly is that when I was trying to explain to

 5     people about the convoluted nature of the war in Yugoslavia, I used the

 6     example of the Croatians in Kiseljak firing on the Croatians in Sarajevo,

 7     because some of the shells fired from Kiseljak which were tracked fell in

 8     the city that was being held by Croatian units of the Bosnian forces."

 9             First of all, sir, could you confirm for us whether this portion

10     of the testimony from the Karadzic trial is true and accurate?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And could you please clarify for me what -- it says here that the

13     shells were tracked.  Could you explain for me who tracked the shells?

14        A.   This is other UNPROFOR units.

15        Q.   And you identify here that this was not in the documentation.  Is

16     there -- was there -- was there pressure applied not to record this

17     information in the documentation?

18        A.   I don't think so.  I learned about it through documentation.

19        Q.   And with the incoming rounds from the Croatian artillery coming

20     into Sarajevo be counted in the Increp reports for rounds coming into the

21     Papa side?

22        A.   Most likely, but they're so few in number and this particular

23     incident attracted our attention that we probably would have gone out as

24     a team, sent a special team to look at what shells evidence there was.

25        Q.   And you identified that you were able to determine based upon the

Page 5215

 1     type of shell that it was some kind of French artillery that the

 2     Croatians had.  Could you please give any specifics as to the type of --

 3     the calibre?

 4        A.   No, I can't, because this was again based on documentation that I

 5     saw, not on personal observation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the witness at the time did not fully

 7     answer Judge Morrison's question about the frequency.  Now he says they

 8     were so little in numbers.  Could you give us an indication as to what

 9     the numbers then were.

10             THE WITNESS:  Well, the only -- we only had one incident that

11     we -- came to our attention, but I was told by the people that I asked

12     that there had been other incidents.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And other incidents --

14             THE WITNESS:  Meaning --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- did they specify whether there were five more or

16     a hundred more?

17             THE WITNESS:  No, they didn't, but they said there were not very

18     many.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             THE WITNESS:  And -- and since there was a United Nations

21     headquarters in Kiseljak, a battery firing there would have been

22     noticeable.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but whether it was observed you do not know.

24             THE WITNESS:  I do not know.  But I would --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It could have been observed.  You may have missed

Page 5216

 1     it.

 2             THE WITNESS:  It was firing from long range.  That's why there

 3     was special weapons used.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Kiseljak being at what distance approximately?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I think it's over 30 kilometres, but that's off the

 6     top of my head.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And I think the selection we just read had

 9     30 kilometres listed in harm's way was recorded as saying 30 kilometres.

10        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, that another facet of the

11     convoluted picture of the war in the former Yugoslavia was -- was the

12     ever present rumours and suspicions that the Bosnian Presidency forces

13     shelled their own people in the city, albeit that UNMO during your tenure

14     was never able to confirm such rumours?

15        A.   Well, then I think I have to say that it's -- there were rumours

16     about a lot of things, and this is just one of those other rumours we

17     could never confirm.

18        Q.   Am I correct that the UNMO mission --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters, please.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Am I correct that the UNMO mission did not have a mandate to

22     perform any thorough criminal investigations into such rumours?

23        A.   I can't speak for the rest of UNPROFOR, but the UNMOs had no

24     mandate to investigate criminal activities, no mandate whatsoever.

25             MR IVETIC:  I'd like to turn to 1D428 which is again testimony

Page 5217

 1     from the Galic proceedings and page 25 in e-court, which ought to

 2     correlate to the transcript page 9433.  And I'd like to focus on line 13

 3     and further.

 4        Q.   And, sir, during this exchange -- well, let me just read it for

 5     you:

 6             "Q.  That is either shot at, wounded or killed by a sniper from

 7     the so-called BH army?

 8             "A.  We assume that he was shot by a sniper from the BH army.  We

 9     have the same rumours about the Bosnian Serb Army as we have about the

10     Bosnian Army, that sometimes they shot their own people.

11             "Q.  I did not ask the question in relation to sniper.  So there

12     were rumours, according to you, according to which there were Muslim

13     snipers that were sniping their own people?

14             "A.  There were rumours that people were killed by people on

15     their own side for other reasons.

16             "Q.  Would those be political reasons, sir?

17             "A.  In some cases it was suspected, and other cases [Realtime

18     transcript read in error "case"], criminal activity."

19             Could you first confirm whether this selection I've read is true

20     and accurate.

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Excuse me.  I was told that temporary transcript

23     page 67, line 10, incorrectly shows "other case" when the selection from

24     the Galic says "cases," plural.  Just to complete that record.

25        Q.   And if we can focus a little bit on the artillery side.  Am I

Page 5218

 1     correct that the UNMO mission during your tenure did not have access to

 2     the target grids or the maps that were being used by either side to

 3     direct their artillery fire?

 4        A.   No, we did not.  I assume you are talking about the target maps

 5     that they held, not the target maps, because we used the same map sheets.

 6        Q.   Let me rephrase my question:  Am I correct that the UNMO mission

 7     during your tenure did not have access to the target grids and target

 8     maps that were being used by the forces to direct their artillery?

 9        A.   No, they did not.

10        Q.   And would you agree with me that -- well, first of all, in direct

11     you were asked about Canadian artillery and Canadian procedure for

12     calling down artillery.  Can we agree that the artillery that was in use

13     around Sarajevo on both sides of the conflict line was not the newer

14     generation artillery used by the United States and its NATO allies?  They

15     were not using guided munitions or precision shells but were using more

16     older generation, average-grade weaponry?

17        A.   In 1993, the Canadian Forces were using old, average weaponry,

18     and I learned to fire artillery or direct artillery fire using what you

19     call old weapon technology.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The question about what was available there.

21             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the weapons they had there were as

22     good as anything we had in the Canadian army in 1993.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   And would you agree with me that the -- that some NATO countries

Page 5219

 1     like the United States have standard operating procedures authorising the

 2     use of force even if there is a level of noncombatant injury possible for

 3     a given action?

 4        A.   I don't know about other countries' rules for engaging with

 5     artillery fire in the vicinity of noncombatant forces.

 6        Q.   What about Canadian?  What's the accepted level of collateral

 7     damage before an action is taken by the Canadian Armed Forces?

 8        A.   That has to be taken in context, and we were never in the context

 9     of Sarajevo.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Again a pause between question and answer.

11             Please proceed.

12             THE WITNESS:  In a combat such as we were engaged in in

13     World War II, the rules would be completely different than for the rules

14     of something that -- around Sarajevo, but it -- all military observers

15     calling -- all artillery observers calling down artillery fire in the

16     Canadian Forces were trained to be -- recognised the possibility of

17     collateral damage to noncombatants, and they were -- they would be asked

18     to take this into account in their training.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not the catch the last

20     answer by the witness.  Could the witness kindly repeat his answer.

21     Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you -- and I do see you have your

23     screen in front of you.  If the transcript reflects what you said, could

24     you please then read again from "all artillery observers."

25             THE WITNESS:  All artillery observers calling down artillery fire

Page 5220

 1     in the Canadian Forces were trained to be -- to recognise the possibility

 2     of collateral damage to noncombatants, and they would be asked to take

 3     this into account in the training and of subsequent targeting.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what you added, the last line.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I added the last line.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Focusing on 1993, and let's focus on the Canadian Armed Forces,

 9     am I correct that the use of force could be authorised even for fire

10     missions that included a chance of collateral damage, that is where the

11     likelihood of collateral damage was greater than 0 per cent?

12        A.   I think it would really depend on the context of the situation,

13     how important that objective was, whether they are willing to risk

14     damaging a lot of civilians to achieve that objective, and it's very

15     conjectural.  I mean, the -- the experience of the Canadian Forces in

16     places like Ortona found that pounding with artillery fire actually

17     didn't help because it just gave the Germans more cover.

18        Q.   I'm talking about the decision to authorise use of force, not the

19     effect of the use of force.  Would you agree with me that the

20     Canadian Armed Forces of which you have testified about in 1993

21     authorised included authorisations for the use of force in certain

22     circumstances where there was a risk of actual, verifiable collateral

23     damage taking place?

24        A.   I specified in combat, which was not the case for Canadian Forces

25     in UNPROFOR, in combat obviously artillery would be authorised to be used

Page 5221

 1     but it would always be in the context of the situation.  So a specific

 2     situation.  Unless you were to detail the specific situation, and that

 3     would be one of the challenges in training young officers what -- I can't

 4     answer that question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the point you apparently want to make is

 6     clear.  I'm not anticipating on how you [sic] appreciate it, but the

 7     point you want to make it clear.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The transcript says "you appreciate."  It is "how we

10     appreciate it."  Please proceed.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Am I correct that another potential source of collateral damage

13     is when it's unplanned, when it is the result of failed positive

14     identification of a target?

15        A.   I'm starting to get into the area of speculation, Your Honour.  I

16     mean --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's more we are talking about theory rather

18     than at this moment, isn't it, Mr. Ivetic?

19             MR. IVETIC:  At this point we're talking about general and

20     theory, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to return to the facts primarily and

22     there always will be some judgement implied in it, but if we start with

23     the facts then it's better to have some judgement in it, rather than to

24     start with theory and judgement and then to come across a fact now and

25     then.  But I leave it in your hands at this moment.

Page 5222

 1             MR. IVETIC:

 2        Q.   We will get to the precise references in his statement as to

 3     something similar later in my questioning.  I'd like to move now to your

 4     written statement, which is Exhibit P503, and I'd like to first look at

 5     paragraph 49, which would be on page 11 of the same in English and

 6     page 13 of the same in B/C/S.  And here you are talking about the

 7     Bosnian Serb soldiers and that they were mostly former

 8     Territorial Defence soldiers and that the officers had to exert

 9     supervision on these men to follow their instructions because they were

10     not working professionals.  Would you agree with me based upon your

11     interactions with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps that the number of officers

12     who could exert supervision over such nonprofessional soldiers in the

13     Bosnian Serb Army was limited or inadequate?

14        A.   No, I couldn't say that.

15        Q.   Okay.  At this time I'd like to ask you to comment upon --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, again if you ask whether the numbers

17     were limited or inadequate, what I'd like to know is what the witness

18     knows about the numbers rather than to first elicit his judgement on

19     whether it was limited or inadequate, but rather to ask him whether he

20     knows how many professionals officers were they aware of, for example, so

21     as to then move to conclusions preferably to be drawn by the Chamber,

22     but ...

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Can you answer the Judge's question?  Do you know how many

25     professional officers there were in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps during

Page 5223

 1     the time period that you were the SMO?

 2        A.   No, I don't know how many.  I only know that the army acted as if

 3     they had a professional officer directing them because they did what they

 4     were told.

 5        Q.   Wouldn't you be speculating now, sir?

 6        A.   Well, you asked me the question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the issue is that sometimes people who are not

 8     professionals are still doing what they were told, and sometimes the

 9     instructions are given by persons who are not professionals either.  What

10     Mr. Ivetic is asking you when he says are you not speculating, that you

11     are drawing all kind of conclusions on -- I wouldn't say on a wrong

12     factual basis but at least unclear factual basis and that is what

13     Mr. Ivetic draws your attention to.

14             THE WITNESS:  Then I can rephrase that.  I would say that the --

15     there seemed to be people with the skill sets that could call down

16     artillery fire accurately and direct fire base unit -- fire units,

17     perhaps more in the Bosnian Serb Army than there were in the Bosnian Army

18     in my -- based on my experience of seeing them in action.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   I'd like to present you with 1D00390, and page 22 of the same in

22     e-court.  This is from the Karadzic proceedings and it is something that

23     is the testimony of a Colonel Richard Mole, who was one of your

24     predecessors at the SMO position who served in 1992, and this, once it

25     comes up, should correlate to transcript page 5901.  Page 22 of this

Page 5224

 1     exhibit.  And I'd like to focus on line 5 through 12:

 2              "Q.  Do you agree that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had inherited

 3     territorial and municipal armies that were already in existence, and

 4     everyone, from General Sipcic to General Milosevic, had great problems

 5     establishing a unified command structure over these local units?

 6             "A.  It was certainly a significant difficulty which I observed

 7     that both sides had.  This was not a unique experience from the Serb

 8     side.  So I understand what you're saying.  I was sympathetic to that

 9     situation, and I agree with your overall assessment."

10             Sir, did you observe or were you aware of this problem that your

11     predecessor acknowledged?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton.

13             MS. BOLTON:  I'm just not clear why we're relying on a transcript

14     of Mr. Mole's evidence in a prior proceeding.  Has this area -- is there

15     evidence in this proceeding on this issue from Mr. Mole?

16             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

17             MS. BOLTON:  Then shouldn't we be dealing with what he said in

18     these proceedings and not what he said in some prior proceeding?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, as a -- what we're talking about is

20     evidence given by another witness either in this case or in another case,

21     and I think Mr. Ivetic can ask questions whether a person who has held a

22     similar position, whether his assessment of the situation, whether this

23     witness agrees with that, yes or no.  Therefore, I think it's -- I

24     wouldn't immediately know whether it was exactly -- whether we have

25     similar evidence in this case.  I would have to check that first.  But

Page 5225

 1     there's no problem in asking the question as you did.

 2             MS. BOLTON:  I'm sorry, I didn't -- I didn't I think express my

 3     objection very well.  It seems to me that it's inappropriate -- I don't

 4     know what Mr. Mole had to say in these proceedings, but let's assume for

 5     a moment that maybe he said something different in these proceedings.

 6     You're now being basically --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then in re-examination, you can address that matter.

 8     There's no problem about that.  I ruled on the basis of your initial

 9     objections that the witness may answer the question and that ruling

10     stands.

11             Please proceed.

12             THE WITNESS:  First, Mr. Mole was ahead of me in Sarajevo, and

13     perhaps the fact that I found fewer skill sets among the Bosnian

14     commanders than the Serb commands reflects the fact that the Bosnian Serb

15     commanders had more skill sets and were able to achieve a greater unified

16     force more quickly.

17             The second point I'd like to make for the edification of the

18     Judges is that artillery units and armoured units which the Bosnian Serbs

19     had which the other Bosnians did not have in large numbers require a

20     skill set which precludes more discipline and working together.

21     Therefore, I would not agree by the time I took over in October 1993 that

22     both sides were having equal difficulty in managing their territorial

23     call-up assets.

24             Do you want me to repeat that for the interpreters?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think they -- yes.  The interpretation has

Page 5226

 1     now finished.

 2             There is a small problem, Mr. Ivetic.  The -- what you read to

 3     the witness was first about a problem.  The witness says that witness

 4     said recognises, and then he added to that that it was equal on both

 5     sides.  Now, apparently the witness focused very much on the equality,

 6     and that is the result of you not splitting up the two elements of that

 7     answer.

 8             You may proceed, and if you want to explore it further, please

 9     feel free to do so.  If not, we'll proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:

11        Q.   Would you agree with the assessment or did you have information

12     similar to Colonel Mole that the -- that there were great problems in

13     establishing a unified command structure over local units?

14        A.   No.  I disagree, and I -- on several points.  Personally, I based

15     my assessment on meeting local commanders and on the situation that I saw

16     happening in real live incidents and not on what other people's reports

17     said about these commanders.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we can -- if we can move to one more

19     aspect of Colonel Mole's testimony, and this is in 1D00389.  And it's

20     from the Karadzic proceedings and should be page 78 in the e-court system

21     which, hopefully, if my math is right will correlate to page 5878 from

22     the Karadzic case, and I'd like to focus on lines 13 through 16.

23             MS. BOLTON:  I have an issue to raise.  Is this --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- I first wanted to give an opportunity,

25     at least the numbers mentioned by Mr. Ivetic to be heard, to be

Page 5227

 1     translated, and I was aware that you were on your feet, Ms. Bolton.  What

 2     is it that you'd like to raise?

 3             MS. BOLTON:  I want to know if this portion of the transcript

 4     that my friend is going to put to this witness from Mr. Mole's prior

 5     testimony was put to Mr. Mole during cross-examination, because if it

 6     wasn't, it would violate the rule in Brown v. Dunn that in essence you

 7     have to confront the witness who is testifying with what appears to be

 8     something he has said before and give him the opportunity to explain, in

 9     fairness.  So I'd like to know if this passage was put to Mr. Mole before

10     we go any further.

11             MR. IVETIC:  First of all, Brown v. Dunn is not jurisdiction

12     here.  This exact passage was presented to Colonel Mole which he

13     confirmed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I would agree with Mr. Ivetic that -- now let me --

15     Ms. Bolton, any further response to what Mr. Ivetic said, both in terms

16     of the applicability of Brown v. Dunn?  I take it that you wanted to

17     refer to the underlying idea under Brown v. Dunn.

18             MS. BOLTON:  Correct.  Now --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Or to any case law in this Tribunal, although you

20     failed to refer us to any authority.

21             MS. BOLTON:  Two issues:  One is that if this passage was put to

22     Mr. Mole in this case and he was given the opportunity to comment on it,

23     then I have no difficulty with it.  The principle in Brown v. Dunn, I

24     would suggest, is applicable in these proceedings because it is a

25     principle of fairness to the witness.

Page 5228

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the only comment was not that the principle

 2     does not apply but that the Brown v. Dunn does not apply in itself.

 3     Let's try not to lose ourselves in these details.

 4             Mr. Ivetic, to the extent you could assist the Chamber and

 5     Ms. Bolton in the transcript page where it was put to Mr. Mole, because

 6     you'll understand that our recollection is insufficient to immediately

 7     have it available.  But meanwhile --

 8             MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile you can proceed, and once you have

10     it, please let us know.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12        Q.   Sir, the part that I want to focus in on of this page begins at

13     line 13, and this is Colonel Mole again answering the question from the

14     accused, Karadzic:

15              "I am in my own mind convinced that there was a considerable

16     anti-Serb approach to the conflict within the press and, indeed, beyond

17     it to some quite senior politicians who I met and talked with in

18     Sarajevo."

19             Sir, did you during your tenure witness similar matters as

20     Colonel Mole has identified here, an anti-Serb position within the media

21     and within senior politicians that he -- that were in Sarajevo?

22        A.   No, because I gave instructions and I followed them myself to all

23     my military observers to pay no attention to the press or to any visiting

24     politicians in what they said or what their attitudes were.  They had one

25     boss.  That was me.  And they were to ignore, completely ignore what

Page 5229

 1     press people told them or any outsiders, and in particular politicians

 2     and press people.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bolton, if you would like to know whether it was

 4     put to Mr. Mole, look at page 4374 of the transcript.  That's the

 5     advantage of electronic systems which allow you to find it very quickly.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. BOLTON:  Thank you.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  And thank you, Your Honour, for that one.  I will

 9     get you the other reference for the first question.

10        Q.   If -- and I -- sir, I appreciate that you limited your answer to

11     your military observers.  I'd like to turn back to 1D426, the publication

12     "In Harm's Way."

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And page 8 in e-court, and the section talking about moral

15     courage, which I would present to you.  It's at the second half of the

16     page on the left on the screen:

17             "Moral courage.  Moral courage is also a requirement, and for me

18     that meant protecting any UNMO under my command from disciplinary action

19     suggested by higher authorities.  Initially, this led to unpleasantness

20     with the sector commander who appeared ready to accept the Bosnian

21     government version of an incident on Mount Igman over the report

22     submitted by one of my observer teams.  He wanted the UNMO who filed a

23     report that was contradictory to a Bosnian version to be transferred out

24     of Sector Sarajevo.  I refused to do this or to change my situation

25     report (SITREP) to conform to what the sector commander said."

Page 5230

 1             First of all, sir, is this selection from your article truthful

 2     and accurate, and if asked under oath would you give this same info?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And again, I think we have to wait for the translations and

 5     transcribers, so please try to pause after my question.

 6             And the sector commander, that would be General Soubirou; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And by the "Bosnian version," are we talking about the

10     Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian Presidency side?

11        A.   Yes, Bosnian version is exactly what it means in that book.

12        Q.   And do we -- do you have knowledge of any other instances where

13     senior UN officials sided with the Bosnian Presidency version of

14     incidents that your UNMO observers reported as being factually different

15     from that version?

16        A.   I didn't worry about it.  If I accepted what my UNMOs said was

17     factually correct, I would argue and it didn't make any difference to me

18     whether the senior man disagreed with it because he was pro-Bosnian or

19     pro-Serb, it was whether my guy reported what he saw, and I believe my

20     guy over anybody else's.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you have any other examples

22     where this had happened not whether you would -- you would be part of it

23     or whether you noticed it to happen.

24             THE WITNESS:  Well, unfortunately for the Defence I have an

25     example which is -- shows the other side of it.

Page 5231

 1             MR. IVETIC:  And now the translation has caught up.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic, for keeping me on the right

 3     track as well.

 4             Meanwhile, I put it to the witness that he responded not to your

 5     question.  You may follow up as you wish.

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   Sir, irrespective of whether you acted upon complaints, were

 8     there other instances where senior UN officials appeared to side with

 9     pro-Bosnian Presidency versions of incidents that were in conflict with

10     what the UNMO observers reported as being factually the case?

11        A.   None that I can recall right now.  The only one I recall was the

12     exact opposite of the case you just presented.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock.  It would be

14     time for a "pauze."

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  We could take a break at this

16     time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The last word was "pauze."  I noticed that.  We --

18     could first we have the witness escorted out of the courtroom.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, we will resume at 25 minutes past 6.00,

21     but could I ask you as well to -- whether you are on track, because

22     there's this specific agreement between the parties that we would

23     conclude the testimony of this witness today.

24             MR. IVETIC:  How much time will we have after the break?  It's --

25     35.  I'll be close.

Page 5232

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Groome, in view of the witness to appear

 2     tomorrow, is there any flexibility possible?

 3             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just so -- I think Your Honour's

 4     recollection of the agreement is different, and since Mr. Stojanovic was

 5     here and I think Mr. Ivetic and Mr. Lukic were not here.  I thought that

 6     what Mr. Stojanovic said that we -- they may request the first session

 7     tomorrow but even with that, they would complete the examination of the

 8     next witness by the end of the day tomorrow.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I missed that.  So there is some flexibility.

10     There seems to be no major problem at this moment.  We take the break and

11     we resume at 25 minutes past 6.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 6.06 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 6.25 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, while we wait for the witness, I could

16     give the transcript reference for the Colonel Mole testimony.  It was

17     transcript page 46 -- 4363, line 23 to 4364, line 9.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  I used the time for the

19     following instruction to the Registry in relation to the D40 and D42,

20     both MFI'd.

21             The Defence has provided revised versions for MFIs D40 and D42,

22     and the Registry may make the necessary replacements and then D40 and D42

23     are admitted into evidence.

24             I take it that they have been provided to the Prosecution, the

25     new versions.  If not, we'll hear from Mr. Groome very soon, isn't it

Page 5233

 1     Mr. Groome?  Yes.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  I hope he has more information than I do on that

 3     matter, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             MR. GROOME:  If it's not too soon, we have not received it.  We

 8     would appreciate a copy.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if there's any problem with the new versions,

10     Mr. Groome, then we would like to hear from you, well, let's say within

11     the next two or three days.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to call up 65 ter 1D423.

14        Q.   And while we wait for that, Mr. Thomas, this is a document that

15     was disclosed to us by the Prosecution, which purports to be the

16     information report of their -- oops.  There it is.  Information report of

17     their proofing session with General Sir Michael Rose on the

18     29th of August, 2003 at the Ministry of Defence, London, United Kingdom.

19     And I'd like focus on page 3 in e-court, bottom of the page.  And the

20     part I'd like to ask you about, sir, reads as follows:

21             "I am sure that the Serbs were firing at the trams, but I believe

22     Ganic also organised his secret police to snipe trams.  His sniper units

23     sniped so that the angle of the shot matched the direction of the Serb

24     line.  During long cease-fires I think that Ganic and the Muslims were

25     responsible for breaking the cease-fire.  This kept the tension."

Page 5234

 1             Sir, at the time that your UNMO mission was responding to and

 2     looking into sniping incidents, did you have knowledge of either this

 3     belief of General Rose or any underlying information that the

 4     Bosnian Presidency secret police snipers were sniping at trams in a way

 5     to match the direction of the Serb line?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that the only sniper position that you actually

 8     visited on the Bosnian Muslim side was in fact under the control of the

 9     police rather than the army?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   Am I correct that your visit to this Bosnian Presidency sniping

12     unit, which was under police control, was in part -- in furtherance of an

13     investigation into repeated Serb complaints of incoming fire from this

14     location?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Am I correct that your investigation found this Bosnian Muslim

17     police sniping unit located inside a building that was a school or that

18     had been a school?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was the school still in use or had it -- or was it solely

21     occupied by this unit?

22        A.   It was solely occupied by this unit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Thomas, I've seen witnesses here before who were

24     not so eager to immediately answer the question, so apart from making a

25     pause, I would say just take your time.

Page 5235

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Now, as a military officer, if a school such as this one was

 5     being used by a unit of police snipers and was no longer a functioning

 6     school, would it constitute a legitimate target for the opposing force?

 7        A.   Yes.  Of course, the fact it was almost on the front lines would

 8     have precluded it being used as a school anyway.

 9        Q.   Did you consider it unusual and in fact worrisome that the sniper

10     activity of the Bosnian Muslim side seemed to be under the control of the

11     police rather than the army?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   If we could turn to page 4 in e-court of General Rose's proofing

14     note or information sheet, and it's the bottom of the page again.  And

15     here General Rose is talking about the UNMO mission, and according to

16     this document from the Prosecution, he says:

17             "The UNMO reports were completely useless.  It was a

18     money-spinner.  They wrote shoot-reps and reports based on what they were

19     told by the local commanders.  Many were not technically competent and

20     some were sold out.  They were captured by the ones they were there

21     with."

22             Now, sir, to be fair, I did want to advise you - and we can go to

23     the next page in the English - that there is an assessment of yourself by

24     General Rose, and he states as follows:

25             "Thomas was an excellent UNMO, very hard working and committed."

Page 5236

 1             So you have the full picture of this assessment.  I'd like to

 2     focus on the negative comments of General Rose and ask you, do you agree

 3     with the assertion that many of the UNMOs were not technically competent?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Do --

 6        A.   I completely disagree with this statement about the UNMOs.

 7        Q.   Let's take it step-by-step, sir, and I'll give you the

 8     opportunity to respond.  Do you agree with the assertion that some of the

 9     UNMOs were "sold out"?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you agree with the -- part of the assessment that said that

12     the UNMOs sided with whomever they were situated with and that reports

13     were based on what local commanders told them rather than the facts they

14     observed?

15        A.   No.  You just brought up an incident where they disagreed.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm close to the point that I have to work as a

18     traffic policeman, saying, Now you.  Now you.

19             Try to do it yourself.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Sir, am I correct that there were -- there was at least one

22     incident that you became aware of later where some of your UNMO staff who

23     had violated your instruction not to fraternise with the locals had in

24     fact become involved with a Bosnian Muslim female and had violated

25     regulations to transport them out of a particular zone?

Page 5237

 1        A.   Yes.  And the fact is the UNMO that assisted him, I got him fired

 2     out of Sector Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   And was that the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   And, sir, was that particular instance the only instance of that

 7     type of thing that you were aware of during your tenure?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   How many other such instances of that type of behaviour were you

10     aware of?

11        A.   I can -- I can -- I can't recall now, but I can -- at least three

12     other incidents come to mind, some of which were revealed to me after I

13     left.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15        A.   Excuse me, Your Honour, but these -- this is a question of

16     personal -- it doesn't involve either any of the allegations of

17     General Rose about money spinning or false reports.  This is someone

18     being involved with one of the interpreters.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you've answered the question, and

20     let's leave it to that, because you are giving additional comments which

21     you consider to be relevant, and in this courtroom we leave it to the

22     parties and to the Bench to decide what we consider to be relevant enough

23     to ask questions about.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 5238

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me, sir, that due to the manner in which the

 2     observation locations were set up, that on the Serb side of the

 3     confrontation line the casualties were not adequately covered by the

 4     reports?

 5        A.   I would agree.

 6        Q.   And -- and am I correct that the Bosnian Muslim or Presidency

 7     forces held -- held a position on Mount Igman where they had heavy

 8     weapons located?

 9        A.   They only had 120-millimetre mortars during my time there.

10        Q.   Did -- did you or your mission ever have access to the entirety

11     of the Mount Igman portion held by the Presidency forces during the time

12     that you were there?

13        A.   Your Honour, can I clarify the question?  Is he talking about --

14     are you talking about the --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can ask to clarify the question if you do

16     not fully understand it.

17             THE WITNESS:  Are you talking about after the cease-fire when

18     weapons were being collected?

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   And I have already testified, no, we were not allowed access to

22     the Bosnian weapons that they held on Mount Igman.

23        Q.   Did the Serb side complain to you of the Muslim heavy weapons

24     firing upon them from this area of Mount Igman?

25        A.   As I already stated, during the cease-fire, I didn't have any

Page 5239

 1     weapons, heavy weapons, fired by either side.  So it would have taken

 2     place before the cease-fire.  Is that -- does your question apply to

 3     that?

 4        Q.   Yes, sir.  During the time period when heavy weapons would have

 5     been used, did you have complaints from the Serbs as to these particular

 6     weapons from the Mount Igman location being used to direct fire upon

 7     them?

 8        A.   Yes, against military targets.

 9        Q.   You testified in direct examination about a military offensive

10     in, I believe, it was August that was in the Igman area, and you

11     identified that your information second-hand was that General Mladic

12     commanded this offensive.  Could you give us the details precisely when,

13     in what form, and where General Mladic -- where General Mladic would

14     have -- would have planned this offensive based upon the second-hand

15     information that you had?

16        A.   No, I can't.  I was doing another job at the time in Macedonia.

17        Q.   If I can ask you to pause a little more, I think that would help

18     with the other people that need to work in this courtroom.

19        A.   Sorry.

20        Q.   Did your second-hand information as to the offensive at

21     Mount Igman identify the Bosnian Presidency forces that were engaged in

22     combat counter to this offensive?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   I'd like to move on then.  At paragraph 88 of your amalgamated

25     statement, which would be P503, page 19 in the English and page 23 in the

Page 5240

 1     B/C/S, you talk about an incident on 13 October 1993, where Bosnian

 2     soldiers disguised themselves as Serbs and shot at the BH commander.

 3             First of all, was this the only incident that you had knowledge

 4     of where Bosnian Presidency forces impersonated Serb troops?

 5        A.   Yes, that's the only incident I had knowledge of.

 6        Q.   Did you have any information or assessment of the intended object

 7     of this action?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   If we look at paragraph 87 on the same page in both versions of

10     your amalgamated statement, you identify the removal of some

11     Bosnian Presidency commanders who were a criminal element, including

12     Celo, C-e-l-o.  I'd like to get some more details.  According to your

13     information, how many such commanders were there on the

14     Bosnian Presidency side whom you would label as a criminal element?

15        A.   I don't have any idea how many I would label, because I didn't

16     know enough about them privately, but the people that in my -- in my

17     statement, I identified the commanders that were relieved of their duties

18     and also the details of their relief -- relieving them of their duties is

19     not known because it took combat action to relieve them in some cases.

20        Q.   And when you say it took combat action to relieve them in some

21     cases, am I correct that you're talking about conflict between -- between

22     two elements of the Bosnian Presidency forces?

23        A.   The government of -- the Bosnian government forces had to use

24     force to remove these commanders.

25        Q.   And these commanders that they had to use force to remove were

Page 5241

 1     their own commanders?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I'd like to move to another topic now.  At paragraph 19 of your

 4     amalgamated statement, which is back on page 5 in the English and page 6

 5     in the B/C/S, you identify one of the duties of the UNMOs being to

 6     facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid.  How often were your UNMOs

 7     called upon to fulfil this task in addition to their observation task?

 8        A.   This is more complex than a yes or no answer.  Do I have

 9     permission to go ahead?

10             Well, first of all, we had the most up-to-date information, so

11     the humanitarian aid agencies came to my headquarters and asked us for

12     information and to have that information on -- that we have displayed on

13     our map, to have access to that.

14             In the case of Gorazde, I had to substitute military observer

15     convoy -- as convoy escorts when the permission for the French escort was

16     denied from by Pale.  We also had to evacuate a casualty, a sick person

17     from the Sarajevo hospital from Gorazde using a military observer vehicle

18     when air-lift was denied access.

19             We basically tried to avoid any escort of humanitarian delivery

20     because we were not armed, and some of the country's drivers refused to

21     drive in a convoy which did not have an armoured ambulance, which of

22     course I did not have an armoured ambulance.

23             Does that answer your question?

24        Q.   Yes, and I'd like --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I didn't think you answered the question,

Page 5242

 1     Mr. Thomas.  The question is how often, not to detail what you told -- or

 2     I can read the question to you.  It says:

 3              "How often were your UNMOs called upon to fulfil this task in

 4     addition to their observation tasks?"

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, I would say, Your Honour, we did it every

 6     day.  Every day I was in Sarajevo we had an NGO or humanitarian aid

 7     agency --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  You answered me.  You did it every

 9     day.

10             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Judge.

12        Q.   Were the staff that were called upon to fulfil the task of

13     facilitating the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.  Please proceed.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, were the staff that were called upon to fulfil the task of

17     facilitating delivery of humanitarian aid the same staff that also served

18     as observers of heavy weapons?

19        A.   Yes.  Not necessarily at the same time though.  I don't want

20     to -- I'm not sure if you're aware of what was involved in the job.

21        Q.   Did you feel that you had enough men at your disposal to do both

22     jobs?

23        A.   I had enough men to do those jobs.  I always felt that I could

24     use more people to do the investigations that were required by the

25     actions of the warring parties.

Page 5243

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to call up 65 ter 1D427.

 2        Q.   And while we wait for that, sir, I can advise that this is a

 3     one-page document that appears to be dated the 12th of December, 1993.

 4     And when this document comes up, sir, I'd like for you to examine it and

 5     see if you can recognise it as a document drafted either by you or upon

 6     your request -- behest.

 7        A.   What's your question on this?

 8        Q.   Do you recognise this document as one that you would have

 9     authored or authored --

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And if I can first ask you what kind of document is this?

12        A.   This is a supplementary sitrep sent down to -- from my

13     headquarters to the military observers based in Gorazde.

14        Q.   I would direct your attention to item 3 of the report in the

15     middle of the screen wherein it is stated:

16              "The convoys have not gone also because of both UNHCR and French

17     decisions not just Serb.  Convoys to Sarajevo have been blocked."

18             Am I correct in understanding this selection to mean that

19     humanitarian aid convoys were prevented from going to their intended

20     destinations on this occurrence not only due to decisions by the Serbs

21     but also decisions by UNHCR and the French?

22        A.   It remains exactly as written.

23        Q.   Could you tell us in your experience was this a one-off

24     occurrence or something that you recall happening more than once during

25     your tour as SMO?

Page 5244

 1        A.   It happened more than once for various reasons.  One reason would

 2     be if the drivers of the trucks were from one of those countries where

 3     they had to require an armoured ambulance, if an armoured ambulance was

 4     not available then the convoy would not go.  If the French who had to get

 5     authority to proceed from Pale were not given permission, then the armed

 6     escort would not reach the destination, and usually the UNHCR convoys

 7     came from Serbia and crossed the Drina River close to Gorazde, and if

 8     they were delayed for any reason you would not have the escort meeting up

 9     with the convoy and again the convoy would be delayed.  So there could be

10     in each case a number of reasons for all of this happening.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I must admit that the paragraph or that

12     item is not entirely clear to me:

13             "The convoys have not gone also because of both UNHCR and French

14     decisions not just Serb.  Convoys to Sarajevo have been blocked."

15             Let me try to understand the language.  Does it mean that the

16     convoys could not succeed because not only Serb decisions but also UNHCR

17     and French decisions had caused convoys to Sarajevo to have been blocked?

18     Is that how I have to understand it.

19             THE WITNESS:  In that incident -- indent I'm reporting that, yes,

20     exactly, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.  Just the language was not entirely

22     clear, but it now is.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, Mr. Thomas, I guess Mr. Ivetic asked you

24     the question:  Could you tell us in your experience was this a one-off

25     occurrence or you remember happening more than once during your tenure --

Page 5245

 1             THE WITNESS:  It happened more than once.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just a second.  Just a second.  The question

 3     related to it happening based on the decisions of UNHCR or the French.

 4     The example -- your answer gives reasons and you said for a variety of

 5     reasons.  The reasons we give have nothing to do with the French or the

 6     UNHCR.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, they had everything to --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You say that UNH -- the French had to get

 9     permission from Pale, and if Pale refused, then the convoy wouldn't go.

10     That's not the French decision.  That's a Pale decision.

11             THE WITNESS:  But also the French might not go because they had

12     the vehicles --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not part of your answer, sir.  And you are

14     now adding that, and it looks like you're speculating once you say

15     "might."

16             THE WITNESS:  Well, in this particular case the French made a

17     decision they weren't going to send the armoured vehicles either and also

18     the UNHCR said they wouldn't send the convoy, because they could have

19     sent the convoy if it had had the right kind of drivers and my military

20     observers would have escorted it.  But obviously in this case it required

21     an armoured ambulance which required an armoured troop --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's precisely what you said, sir.

23             THE WITNESS:  And there were other --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just hold it.  Just hold it.  Once again, that's

25     not a reason for -- you are saying when the drivers of the trucks

Page 5246

 1     demanded an armoured ambulance and it couldn't be found, then they

 2     wouldn't go.  That's again not a decision of the French or -- or the

 3     UNHCR, sir.  It's a circumstance arising from the requirements of the

 4     truck driver.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, the truck drivers are employed by UNHCR, so

 6     they would make a decision whether they would replace those drivers with

 7     ones that could go or just leave the convoy parked on the Drina River.

 8             The second point about the French, the French could decide - and

 9     they didn't share their reasons - decide not to send the armoured troop

10     that went with the armoured ambulance, and they would just say it's not

11     available for that day or, We're not sending it down.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I phrase the issue ...

13             THE WITNESS:  The point I was trying to make ...

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  You keep giving further explanations.

15     I'll leave it to you, Mr. Ivetic.  Thank you so much, sir.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it's working.

17             I would like to receive an explanation for the words "not just

18     Serb" in item 3 of this document.  What do you mean by that?

19             THE WITNESS:  I mean that even if the Serbs agreed to let the

20     convoy go, the French had not agreed to provide the escort, and UNHCR had

21     not agreed to send the convoy.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did the Serb authorities give the permission in

23     this case or cases you are referring to here?

24             THE WITNESS:  In some cases they did, and it was very frustrating

25     to have a convoy sit outside because there was no French escort, and it

Page 5247

 1     sat outside Gorazde, and they wouldn't drive through no man's land.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  If I can ask to have this document tendered as the

 4     next available Defence exhibit number.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 1D00427 shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D101.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And if I can just correct the transcript temporary

10     page 96, line 12, it's 1D427 should be the correct 65 ter number.

11        Q.   Sir, let me see if I can fit one more question in until we get to

12     the appointed hour.  During your time as the SMO did you have occasion to

13     hear of complaints relative to the aid convoys that the Presidency forces

14     were smuggling weapons and ammunition through these aid convoys?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Were there no incidents during your tenure where weapons were

17     discovered as part of any aid convoys?

18        A.   That was not part of our function to look at the UNHCR convoys

19     loading or unloading.  We had enough to do without that, I'm sorry to

20     say.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question was whether you heard about it and

22     then whether there were such incidents during your tenure, and to say

23     that it was not your task to look after it is something different from

24     whether you heard about it.  Did you hear about such incidents during

25     your tenure?

Page 5248

 1             THE WITNESS:  There were always rumours, Your Honour, but I told

 2     my people not to pay attention to rumours.  That would have to be

 3     investigated properly, because people were -- there was a lot of rumours

 4     in a city under siege.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore no concrete information --

 6             THE WITNESS:  No concrete --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No specific incidents.

 8             THE WITNESS:  No.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours looking at the clock I think we've

11     reached the end of the day.  I can report that I have approximately

12     15 more minutes which should, I think, fit with the estimates that I've

13     heard from my colleague as to the remaining witness this week.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It certainly does, and it's appreciated that

15     the parties are sticking to their time estimates.

16             Mr. Thomas, before we adjourn, we started today by asking you to

17     make a pause.  Then I urged you not to already start the answer before

18     the last word could have been translated, and finally, and I would like

19     to invite you, it finally ended up when one of my colleagues asked

20     questions that you interrupted him one or two times, not even allowing

21     him to finish the question.  Please think it over overnight, take your

22     time tomorrow to answer a question, and while thinking about all this, I

23     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate with anyone else

24     about your testimony either given today or still to be given tomorrow.

25     We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

Page 5249

 1             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 2             THE WITNESS:  [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, Your Honour,

 3     for interrupting.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow Friday

 6     the 16th of November at 9.30 in the same Courtroom III.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day

 9                           of November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.