Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5413

 1                           Tuesday, 20 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise a

12     preliminary issue about scheduling, if I understood well.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning.  Just to inform the

14     Chamber that following our discussion yesterday that we discussed with

15     our colleagues on the Defence and we have agreed that we can finish with

16     Witness Djozo if we commence on Thursday and we will finish within the

17     scheduled hearing time on Thursday without any need to extend on Thursday

18     or go into Friday.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber appreciates your efforts.

20             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I'd

22     like to go into private session for one moment, but, yes, the witness is

23     here and ready.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 5414

 1   (redacted)

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21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Good morning, Witness RM063.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

Page 5415

 1     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to

 2     you now.  I would like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  RM063

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM063, you will testify with protective

10     measures.  No one outside this courtroom will see your face, no one will

11     hear your own voice, and we'll address you not by your own name but we'll

12     call you Witness RM063.  Further, we will take a break every hour.  If

13     you need another break, don't hesitate to address me and ask for it and

14     then we'll try to accommodate you as good as we can.

15             You will now first be examined by --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now first be examined by Mr. Elderkin.

18     Mr. Elderkin is counsel for the Prosecution.

19             You may proceed, Mr. Elderkin.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll start with a

21     slightly unusual point.  I can see from here the chair is very high for

22     the witness.  I know I had to lower it when we came in yesterday.  Sorry

23     to ask this, but it rather looks like he's having to stand.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness RM063, again, if you feel uncomfortable in

25     any way, don't hesitate to tell us.

Page 5416

 1             Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

 4        Q.   Sir, as you know, you have the protective measures, as the Judge

 5     has referred to, so I will not be referring to you by your name but I

 6     will use your pseudonym or call you "sir" or "witness."  Please also try

 7     to help by not giving away personal details that may reveal your

 8     identity.  If you need to say any such things in one of your answers,

 9     please indicate and I can ask the Judges that we go into private session.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see, please, 65 ter number 28545, and

11     this should not be broadcast.

12        Q.   So without reading aloud what is on the screen, is that your

13     name?  Sir, would it help if the screen is magnified, or do you need to

14     move closer?

15        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  Yes.

16        Q.   And at the bottom of the screen, is that your correct date of

17     birth?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, please can this document be admitted

20     under seal.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 28545 becomes Exhibit P530.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P530 is admitted under seal.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:

25        Q.   Sir, since you arrived in The Hague on Saturday, did you read

Page 5417

 1     your statements from 1996 and 1998 concerning your war time experiences?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Please can we see 65 ter 28542, again which should

 4     not be broadcast.

 5        Q.   Sir, you should see on the left text in your language and on the

 6     right text in English with a signature at the bottom right.  Do you

 7     recognise the signature at the bottom right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Whose signature is that?

10        A.   Mine.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could go for a moment into private session,

12     please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5418

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  And can we please see the last page in both

 9     languages.  It's page 9 in the English and page 10 in B/C/S.

10        Q.   Again, sir, is that also your signature close to the top of the

11     page in the English language version?

12        A.   It is.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:  Please could we now see page 2 in both languages,

14     and if we can zoom in to capture the sentence just above the first

15     redaction box, please.

16        Q.   Sir, looking above that first black box there is a sentence which

17     currently reads:

18             "Prior to the war I was a member of the SDA party, but I was not

19     actively involved in politics."

20             Do you have any correction to that sentence?

21        A.   No, no, I was not a member.  I was a follower, a sympathiser.  I

22     watched the promotion rallies, but I've never been a member.  This is not

23     correct.  I don't have a membership booklet, I never asked for one, I

24     didn't need one, but I opted like all ethnic Muslims.  But I didn't need

25     membership and I couldn't even afford to pay the membership fees.  The

Page 5419

 1     thought never occurred to me, I didn't want it.  I was a worker --

 2        Q.   Sir, I wanted to interrupt you for a moment.  I just wanted to

 3     ask about the correction to that sentence and I think we have a

 4     satisfactory answer on the record now.  So I'll be following up with some

 5     further questions, but if we can try to keep -- my questions will be

 6     short and focused, and if we can try also to have answers that are short

 7     and focused.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we now see 65 ter 28543, which also should

 9     not be broadcast.

10        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the signature at the bottom right which is

11     on the English language version again?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Again, whose signature is that, please?

14        A.   Mine.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  Can we also see, please, the last page in both

16     languages and just give the witness time to see the signature there.

17        Q.   Sir, looking at the top right, again, is that your signature?

18        A.   Yes, but I'd like to ask you to turn up the lighting.  I can't

19     see these letters very well and my eyeglasses are not fit for this kind

20     of viewing.  Perhaps the screen should be moved closer to me or perhaps

21     further from me.

22        Q.   Sir, the Court Usher is coming to assist; if not, I also have

23     hard copies of all the documents that I'm referring to.  So if that can't

24     be adjusted then with the leave of the Court and Defence's agreement I

25     can always offer to show those.  We're at this stage almost finished with

Page 5420

 1     these documents.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:

 4        Q.   Sir, does that help now that the screen has been blown up

 5     further?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, it does.

 7        Q.   And is that your signature, please?

 8        A.   It is.  It is.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we can go back, please, just to the first

10     page and zoom in on the area where the date of birth is in the centre of

11     the page about halfway down.  You need to go towards the top, please, and

12     right in the middle now.

13        Q.   So without reading aloud the date, but do you agree that the

14     figure in the middle of that page should be corrected to give the date of

15     birth that you mentioned earlier?

16        A.   I don't see any dates here.  My screen is black -- oh, now it is

17     there.  This is wrong.  This is wrong.

18        Q.   I wouldn't ask you to say your actual date of birth because we're

19     in open session, but do you agree that that should be corrected in

20     accordance with the documents that we saw earlier?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Sir, bearing in mind --

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   Bearing in mind the corrections that you have made to these two

25     documents, do these statements truthfully and accurately reflect your

Page 5421

 1     answers during your interviews in 1996 and 1998?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Would you give the same answers if you were examined here today

 4     under the oath that you have taken and asked the same questions?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd tender now these two statements,

 7     65 ter 28542, 28543, both under seal.  There's also one associated

 8     exhibit, 28544.  That can be a public exhibit.  I also plan to use that

 9     with the witness, so I'm happy to wait for tendering that or for it to be

10     numbered now if it will be accepted.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the 1996 statement ... ?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 28542 becomes Exhibit P531.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P531 is admitted under seal.

14             Next statement.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 28543 becomes Exhibit P532.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P532 is admitted under seal.

17             And then the associated exhibit -- I've not looked at it yet,

18     Mr. Elderkin, but there's no initials or something like that on the

19     sketch?

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  There is some handwriting on there which the

21     witness has indicated he doesn't recognise.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then the last one, Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 28544 becomes Exhibit P533, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, P533 is admitted

25     as a public exhibit.

Page 5422

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  I would now like to read a short summary of the

 3     witness's evidence.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You've explained to the witness the purpose of it?

 5     Yes.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  Indeed.

 7             RM063 is a Bosnian Muslim from Foca.  He was in Foca when it was

 8     attacked by Serb military forces starting on the 6th of April, 1992.  He

 9     left to go to Gorazde but sought refuge in Pilipovici with other Muslims

10     who were fleeing.  On the 26th of April, 1992, the Serbs captured the

11     Muslims in Pilipovici.  They separated the men from the women and

12     children.  RM063 was among a group of men randomly selected to be shot,

13     but he managed to return to the crowd.  The other selected men were shot.

14             The Muslims were taken first to a women's prison at Velecevo,

15     then they were taken to the KP Dom in Foca arriving in the evening.

16     RM063 was detained at the KP Dom for several months.  During this period,

17     his weight fell from 85 kilogrammes to 39 kilogrammes.  Other detainees

18     were tortured and beaten and many Muslim men were taken away by the Serb

19     guards and never seen again.

20             RM063 was in a group of prisoners taken for exchange on the

21     31st of October, 1992.  He was first taken for several days to the police

22     station in Kalinovik, where he was beaten and his ribs broken, kept in

23     solitary confinement, and given no medical treatment.  After ten days,

24     RM063 was exchanged.

25             Your Honours, that concludes my summary.  I'd like to ask, before

Page 5423

 1     I continue with further questions, if the witness is feeling well enough

 2     to carry on with questioning or if he needs to take a moment.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we take a short break because

 4     this is all coming back to me and I'm crying.  I would appreciate a short

 5     rest.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a short break, but the curtains should be

 8     down for that purpose before the witness can be escorted out of the

 9     courtroom.

10             Witness, would five minutes for a short break be okay with you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's enough.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd like to leave the courtroom, that's okay.

13     If you would like to leave the courtroom for five minutes, that would be

14     okay.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't need to.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Just tell us when you feel good enough to continue,

18     then we'll pull the curtains up again, but take your time.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can start.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the curtains be pulled up again.

21             Mr. Elderkin, you may proceed.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you some additional questions firstly about

24     the detention situation at the KP Dom in Foca.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  And I'd ask that we can see, please, Exhibit P533.

Page 5424

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  And this shows the KP Dom.

 3        Q.   Once it's up, I'd ask if the usher should come, please, with the

 4     electronic pen as I'll ask you to point to various parts of the image and

 5     explain the site to us.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could rotate it around the left and as large

 7     as possible, please, on the screen.  That's good.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this illustration as the KP Dom?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   Using the electronic pen the usher will hand to you, could you

11     please indicate with a number 1 written nice and large the building in

12     which you were first detained.  Don't worry about making any mistakes,

13     sir, the usher can always correct that.

14        A.   This is pavilion 1 and this is pavilion 2.  I was first in

15     pavilion 1 so here is the marking.

16        Q.   I understand from your statement, sir, that you were in rooms

17     that had numbers, the first being number 11 and the second being number

18     16.  Is that correct or would it help you to see your statement if you

19     can't remember?

20        A.   Yes, yes, that is correct.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we could zoom in, perhaps, on the building

22     where we have the two markings now, so right in the centre of that open

23     courtyard.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will lose the markings.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  Ah, I forgot that technical detail.

Page 5425

 1        Q.   Let's stick with the image we have, sir, and I would say that

 2     reading just above your left-hand marking I see a reference which says I

 3     think room 11 above the left-hand red dot.  Can you see that?  I'm afraid

 4     the writing is quite small.

 5        A.   Yes, I can see that.  That's right, but I can see it.  It's fine.

 6     It's just the right size.

 7        Q.   Is that where you recall the location of room 11?

 8        A.   Yes.  Excuse me, yes.  Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And now looking at the red marking to the right and a bit lower

10     and there I see handwriting saying "room 16," can you tell me if you can

11     see that writing as well just underneath your red dot?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes, I can see that, yes.

13        Q.   Is that where you recall the location of room 16?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And, sir, looking towards the bottom of the screen, so just

16     underneath where it says "room 16," there's a building --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- with three big trees in front of it and there's an arrow

19     pointing upwards saying "ulaz."  So what is that building, if you

20     remember?

21        A.   That was the -- the entrance was when we went down to the

22     restaurant and when we returned that was the entrance to the building for

23     us, the entrance to the blocks.  From the -- I mean, from the blocks into

24     the administration building, and then from the administration building

25     into the blocks, and this -- I think that this was the restaurant where

Page 5426

 1     we went to take our meals, this building.  Somehow I cannot recognise it

 2     at all.

 3        Q.   That's no problem, sir.  I think we can finish with that image

 4     for the moment.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:  In terms of it having the marked exhibit admitted,

 6     I think I've indicated enough information based on the basic image that

 7     we don't necessary need to save this, but I'm in Your Honour's hands if

 8     you prefer to have that saved.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, since we invited the witness to mark it then I

10     think it would for the understanding of the testimony better to have it

11     on the record and saved.  The Chamber wonders to what extent the layout

12     of the buildings for this witness is of such importance that further

13     questions should be put to him on the matter.  I do not know.  There may

14     be some follow-up and challenges to the layout, but from what we've seen

15     until now it's not entirely clear why the layout needs this kind of

16     attention.

17             Mr. Registrar, the sketch marked by the witness would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Marked version of Exhibit P533 becomes

19     Exhibit P534, Your Honours.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got something else to say.

21     This arrow which I'm looking at I only recognise it now.  This was the

22     entrance from the pavilions to the administration building.  This is

23     where we went in here and this is where we went out, and this is where

24     they took people away and they returned them through this door.  So this

25     is the entrance to the administration building and leading outside to the

Page 5427

 1     road.  I remember.  I remember the entrance and the exit now.  It's all

 2     there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember all of that.  I remember

 5     it all, but, gentlemen, it has been almost 20 years ago so one tends to

 6     forget a bit and I can't really see well so I have remembered now.  So

 7     it's as I have just told you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is fine as far as the Chamber is

 9     concerned, Witness.

10             P534 is admitted into evidence.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Elderkin.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  We don't need to see that image on screen anymore.

13        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you now about the reasons why you and other

14     Muslims at the KP Dom were held in detention.  In your statements you

15     describe how you were first interrogated more than three weeks after you

16     arrived at the KP Dom.  My first question is:  What was the reason that

17     you were detained?

18        A.   I don't understand that at all.  I wonder why myself.  I was an

19     employee of an enterprise and I got along nicely with the Serbs.  I

20     visited their homes.  I used to work in their homes.  I worked together

21     with them.  We would greet each other.  We liked each other.  We

22     socialised and everything.  I don't know why at all, but let me describe

23     to you how it all began.  I don't know what was the reason for me to have

24     been kept in prison for such a long time.  There was no indictment

25     whatsoever.  I did not have any weapons.  I didn't kill anyone.  I didn't

Page 5428

 1     rape anyone.  I didn't torch any house.  I didn't do anything.  I was an

 2     employee, a worker.  I worked.  Whoever needed my service, a Serb or a

 3     Muslim, or anyone, I helped everyone in my life.  I helped the poor.  I

 4     helped those who were in want.  I helped to men, children, women, the

 5     elderly, to everyone as much as I could --

 6        Q.   Excuse me, sir --

 7        A.   -- and I only relied on -- yes.

 8        Q.   So thank you again for your answer.  I understand you have a lot

 9     to say.  Please do listen carefully to my questions and I will try to

10     lead you through in a structured way to hear what you have to tell the

11     Court.  My next question:  Were you ever charged with any offence while

12     you were a detainee at the KP Dom?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness just told us, isn't it,

14     Mr. Elderkin?  It would be good not only to focus on your questions but

15     also to listen to the answers the witness gives.  Or is it in his

16     statement?  He says there was no indictment whatsoever.  That's what he

17     says and I'm --

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Fine.  Yes, I see --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness, in his statement, we read that he has

20     no criminal record, so ...

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  I read the statement to refer to his criminal

22     record prior to the war time period so I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but now the answer gave the information.

24             Could we perhaps -- Witness, did you gain the impression that you

25     were detained solely because you were a Muslim?

Page 5429

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only because I was a Muslim.  I did

 2     not do anything.  I was at home and they started shelling from all sides.

 3     We spent ten days in the basement waiting for the time to pass, for all

 4     this to stop.  And so --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I interrupt you for a moment.  I thought

 6     where you said that you had done nothing, that you were not accused of

 7     anything, that I just wanted to verify with you whether you thought it

 8     was only on the basis of your ethnicity that you were detained.

 9     Mr. Elderkin will now put further questions to you.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Your Honours, I'd ask to show a document which has been given a

12     provisional 65 ter number as 65 ter 28561 and it shouldn't be broadcast.

13     It's a list that was drawn up during the witness's proofing yesterday and

14     it's a list of names on which the witness has made comments.  The Defence

15     has been provided with this.  The list --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we further zoom in on the -- yes, it's -- the

17     English is between the names and the -- could we still zoom in a bit more

18     for the witness.  Yes.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could just scroll down to see the signature

20     at the bottom right.

21        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the signature on the bottom right?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, that's my signature.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  And if we could quickly put on the screen the next

24     two pages to see that those are also signed, please.  And the third page,

25     please.

Page 5430

 1        Q.   Sir, can you confirm that during our meeting yesterday you made

 2     the comments summarised in this typed-up document and that you've signed

 3     this, showing that you have reviewed those comments?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And do those comments relate to men whose names appear in this

 6     list about whom you had some information as to what happened to them when

 7     they were taken from the KP Dom?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 28561 as an under

10     seal exhibit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We'll probably cross-examine this witness on this

13     document to see how he knows all the data contained in the document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you'd say there's no -- of course you can

15     cross-examine the witness on it.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this an admissibility issue or what's the --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Well --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If there would be an objection to the admission,

20     what would be the objection?

21             MR. LUKIC:  The objection is that this data was -- has never been

22     provided before in this detail, although the witness testified before.

23     So we would try to investigate further with the witness --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- about his knowledge.

Page 5431

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That goes to weight, not to admissibility, but of

 3     course you can cross-examine the witness on it.

 4             Mr. Registrar, the number of this chart would be ... ?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 28561 becomes Exhibit P535, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:

 9        Q.   Sir, while you were making your comments about these individual

10     names --

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  Perhaps we could zoom out as well, please,

12     actually, so we can see at least part of the document.

13        Q.   So while you were making your comments about these names, did you

14     have the opportunity to review statements that you have made in the past

15     aside from the two statements we looked at today?

16        A.   No, I did not have an opportunity to review them because these

17     were all statements where I did not mention these people.  I remembered

18     them later on and I should have stated their names so I stated them now,

19     yes, yes.

20        Q.   Sir, I'd like to turn now to the time when you left the KP Dom to

21     be exchanged, that was at the end of October 1992.

22             MR. ELDERKIN:  And can we please see 65 ter 14893 which should

23     not be broadcast, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we for the witness have the whole screen to be

25     enlarged.

Page 5432

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:

 2        Q.   Sir, are those names clear enough for you to read the text?

 3        A.   I cannot see it clearly enough.  It's a bit blurred.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we further enlarge and even if only part of --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, like that.

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:

 7        Q.   Sir, could you just read to yourself the names you see on the

 8     screen and say when you get to the bottom of what we see on the screen

 9     and then we can see the next section, please.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  Could we see the next section from number 12 down,

12     please.

13        Q.   Again, please let us know when you've got to the bottom of that

14     list.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And again, please let us know when you get to the

17     end.

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could scroll up so that 16 is visible,

20     please.

21        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the name at number 16; and if so, whose

22     name is that, please?

23        A.   Yes, I recognise it.  It is my name.

24        Q.   Aside from your name, do you recognise any of the other names on

25     this list as people you knew?

Page 5433

 1        A.   From the whole list I know more than one-half of the people.  I

 2     remember them to this day let alone at that time.  I knew all the people

 3     my neighbours, including Serbs and Muslims and Croats.  I am very

 4     sociable and I was always the one who sought the company of people in

 5     cafe restaurants.  I socialised with them, talked --

 6             MR. ELDERKIN:  If we could go to the top, please, and see the

 7     title of the document.

 8        Q.   You may need to zoom out so I'll read this in English in case

 9     it's too small for you to read, sir.  It reads:

10             "List of detainees to be released from Foca KPD on

11     21st October 1992 in order to be exchanged."

12             Sir, when were you actually released from the KP Dom?

13        A.   Well, it was like this:  A policeman, or rather, a guard of

14     theirs came to the door and called out the names.  This is what he did

15     every day.  When they took people to be shot or to be exchanged, the

16     policeman would come to the door of our room, the room where I was, room

17     number 16, and he would call out the names, Mr. So and so should come

18     out.  I didn't know what to do.  He also told me to pick up my things, so

19     I did and I went out.  And I waited outside while the others from the

20     other pavilions whose names had already been read out gathered.  So we

21     were waiting just in front of the door that I showed to you a little

22     while ago leading out from the pavilions and into the administration

23     building and we --

24        Q.   Again, sir, excuse me --

25        A.   -- waited there in front of the door until about 30 of us

Page 5434

 1     gathered --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Elderkin, you asked a question, if I read page 7

 3     of this statement I see a specific date mentioned there.  So I do not

 4     know what you are seeking to add to that, and of course it's clear to the

 5     Chamber in view of the list that it's the same moment of the same year.

 6     So we are wondering --

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  I wanted simply to be fair to draw out the

 8     difference in dates between that page and the other hoping for a shorter

 9     answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  But if we can just see the bottom of the exhibit,

12     the bottom left, where there is another signature and a date and I should

13     be finished with this.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:

16        Q.   Sir, do you see a signature and the name "Vukovic Milenko,

17     komandir," and then the date of the 30th of October, 1992, there?

18        A.   I personally do not know this man, Milenko Vukovic, I don't know

19     him.  I just see his signature.  It says he's from the military police of

20     Konjic.  We were taken precisely by those men.  They were called -- I

21     forget now what they were called.  They had a particular name.  I can't

22     remember.  Anyway, they picked us up, shoved us into the car once we had

23     gotten out of the --

24        Q.   If I may again interrupt, sir.  Excuse me --

25        A.   -- administrative building and then --

Page 5435

 1        Q.   So your answer on the document is helpful and for the rest of

 2     your evidence please remember that it's in the statements that we've

 3     already put before the Judges.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd ask at this point to tender 65 ter 14893 under

 5     seal.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It becomes Exhibit P536, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

 9             Mr. Elderkin, I am looking at the clock.  We usually take a break

10     after one hour.  How much more time would you need so that we can

11     consider whether to take -- the break should be taken now or --

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  That was my last question.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This was your last question.

14             Then, Witness RM063, we'll take a break of approximately

15     20 minutes and after that break you'll be cross-examined, that is, that

16     Mr. Lukic will put some questions to you.  But before you leave the

17     courtroom, the curtains should be pulled down.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  For the witness to enter the courtroom, we have to

23     go into closed session; that is, curtains down.

24                           [Closed session]

25   (redacted)


Page 5436

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17             Witness RM063, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll

18     find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   In view of the fact that we understand each other, I will make a

25     short pause between our questions and answers just for the benefit of the

Page 5437

 1     interpreters.  It does not mean that anything is wrong.  It's for

 2     technical reasons.

 3             Can we begin?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you should always switch off your

 6     microphone when the witness is answering.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I forgot about it.  Thank you for

 8     reminding me.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] You have told us that the fighting around Foca

10     began on 6 April 1992; that's what you stated in your statement.  Today

11     you said Foca was shelled from all sides.  My question is:  In 1992 Foca

12     was populated by both Serbs and Muslims; correct?

13        A.   Yes, and Croats as well.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of 10 February 1996 you say that

15     the attack on Foca lasted 12 days from the 6th until 18 April 1992.  Who

16     was defending Foca?

17        A.   Nobody, nobody was defending it.  I don't know that anybody

18     defended it.  I don't know that there was any defence of Foca.  I am not

19     aware of that at all.

20        Q.   Well then who did the Serbs fight for 12 days?

21        A.   They were afraid that there might be army troops in Foca.  They

22     wanted to clear the place up before they enter.  That's what I know.

23        Q.   Let me just sum up briefly to see if this is, indeed, your

24     evidence.

25        A.   All right.

Page 5438

 1        Q.   In Foca Muslims and Serbs were living.  Nobody defended the town.

 2     Serbs attacked and shelled for 12 days.  Is this your evidence?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know anything about SDA armed units in and

 5     around Foca?

 6        A.   I did not know a thing.  I wasn't even interested.  I was a

 7     religious man.  I went to the mosque and back around noon.  I worked in

 8     my basement, in my own house as a tradesman.  I prepared my work for

 9     Serbs and Muslims alike.  And in Foca, in all the businesses, salaries

10     were very low and I wanted to live normally.  I wanted to earn my living.

11     That's all I was interested in.

12        Q.   May we then conclude that you do not know which of the detained

13     people had participated in that fighting because you don't know who was

14     armed?

15        A.   We shall conclude that I don't know which of the detainees had

16     been involved in the fighting because I really don't know that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On the 13th of April, 1992, you set out towards

18     Gorazde and find shelter in a military depot?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The soldiers in that depot were of all ethnicities; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Then you say you managed to send your son off to Sarajevo by

24     military helicopter?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5439

 1        Q.   Where did your son depart for Sarajevo from?

 2        A.   A helicopter arrived from Sarajevo bringing food for troops,

 3     their salaries, and whatnot.  It landed in Pofalici [as interpreted]

 4     between the hangars.  These hangars served as warehouses or depots, I

 5     don't really know.  We were taking cover in one of the hangars from the

 6     shooting, so shooting was going on.  Anyway, this helicopter arrived from

 7     Sarajevo.  It brought supplies to this army company - I don't know what

 8     else to call it.  It brought equipment, food, salaries, and was supposed

 9     to go back to Sarajevo.  And the thing is, my son was working in Sarajevo

10     at the time and I'm telling you the truth, only the truth.  He had come

11     to see me for the holiday of Bajram.  It's a Muslim holiday.  He had

12     arrived from Sarajevo, being still a student at the time, to wish me a

13     merry holiday and he was supposed to go back to Sarajevo the very next

14     day.  However, returning was impossible because there were barricades all

15     around, a barricade towards Gorazde, on all sides.  When I left my house

16     and started to look around, he accompanied me.  And when that helicopter

17     arrived, I needed so badly to get him back to Sarajevo.  He had already

18     graduated from university, actually.  He was already working as an

19     engineer for a company.  I needed to get him back there.  I had no idea

20     that the war had started and was going to rage in Sarajevo and in Foca --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I interrupt you for a second.  First

22     of all, because Mr. Elderkin is on his feet.

23             Mr. Elderkin.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  It's not an objection, but I see the name of the

25     place where the helicopter landed recorded as Pofalici.  I've never heard

Page 5440

 1     of that place.  I wanted to see if it had been picked up correctly for

 2     the sake of the transcript.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, also because there is -- one second, please,

 4     Witness.  There is a Pofalici in Sarajevo as well.  That's -- now, first

 5     of all, you said it landed in Pofalici.  Is Pofalici somewhere near Foca

 6     or in Foca, Witness?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I did not say "Pofalici"

 8     and I will never say.  It's Pilipovici.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, that's --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a place, Pilipovici.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's now clear on the record.

12             Witness, could I ask you:  The only thing Mr. Lukic asked you is

13     from where that helicopter left.  Then you started telling us the whole

14     story about it.  Could I ask you to focus your answers very much on the

15     precise question of Mr. Lukic.

16             And, Mr. Lukic, I don't have to tell you that it's up to you to

17     get the witness back on track, apart from what the relevance of your

18     question was which is not yet clear to us exactly.  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't want to start with interruptions

20     immediately, Your Honour.  I just tried to [overlapping speakers] --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That is appreciated.

22             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] relationship with the witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That is appreciated.  I think you were wise to do

24     that.  The issue is where do we stop.  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 5441

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, we are a bit short on time and we are

 2     restricted.  You noticed that the Prosecutor also sought brief answers,

 3     and I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions as well

 4     briefly.

 5        A.   All right.

 6        Q.   You left the military depot on the 26th of April, 1992; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   That depot was taken over by units made up of various uniformed

 9     men, including some in civilian clothes carrying weapons?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Is it correct that they all had beards and long hair and had

12     cockades on their caps?

13        A.   Yes, a variety of these things.

14        Q.   When you got to the KP Dom in Foca, those people who were taking

15     you from the depot after having taken over the depot handed you over to

16     the guards at the KP Dom; correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.  They handed us over to the guards of the

18     KP Dom and then those guards took us to Velecevo -- let me not repeat

19     what I've said before.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23        Q.   Presented to RM063 in the course of proofing on 19 November 2012.

24     I will not show you the list again but you know which list I'm talking

25     about, the list of names?

Page 5442

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you know all these names by heart or did somebody refresh

 3     your memory and put those names to you as written here?

 4        A.   I knew most of them by name.  I could remember their faces.  I

 5     talked to them before the war.  I knew them before the war.

 6        Q.   You described for us the conditions of the KP Dom.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In several passages you said you'd heard from other people, such

 9     as Hasan, that they were beaten by neighbours.  Was that an important

10     point?  Did they have a disagreement from before?  What did Hasan say?

11     Why did his neighbours beat him?

12        A.   He didn't say anything.  It's just that when he was brought back

13     from Sabljica [phoen] on a stretcher, through tears and moaning he said,

14     I was beaten up by my own neighbours.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, microphone, please.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] When you arrived at the KP Dom, were you

20     registered?

21        A.   They did not register us.

22        Q.   You say they called out your names in form of a roll call or

23     something.

24        A.   They did not.

25        Q.   They called you out later, didn't they?

Page 5443

 1        A.   Later they came to our rooms and took our names.

 2        Q.   So you were registered, although not upon arrival but later?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us call up in e-court

 6     65 ter 08193.

 7        Q.   Just a moment, sir, this is a technical matter.  You can take a

 8     rest while it's done.

 9             Witness, sir, we have received this document from the

10     Prosecution.

11        A.   Could you zoom in a little so I can see more clearly?

12        Q.   Could we just look at the heading.  Can you see now?

13        A.   Not really.

14        Q.   Do you see now that the penitentiary correctional facility of

15     Foca is addressing on 15 May 1992 the Crisis Staff of the Serb

16     Municipality of Foca?

17        A.   I don't know who's addressing who.  I can see what's written

18     here.  I can't see very well, but I see, yes.  Staff Foca.  Could you

19     scroll up a bit.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom out a little now.

21        Q.   Did you know at that time that the Crisis Staff of the

22     Serbian Municipality of Foca decided who would be released from the

23     KP Dom and who not?

24        A.   No, we never knew that.

25        Q.   Did you know Enes Zekovic?

Page 5444

 1        A.   I did.

 2        Q.   Do you know that he was released from the KP Dom and that he

 3     returned to the town of Foca?

 4        A.   Enes Zekovic, he stayed on in the KP Dom after I had left.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 08444 in

 7     e-court.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before you continue, you asked the

 9     witness whether he knew that the Crisis Staff decided who would be

10     released.  Is that because you think that is said in this document?

11     Because it doesn't say so, isn't it?  It just says that they were

12     addressed and expected to take further action, whatever that action would

13     be, whether they would decide themselves, whether they would decide

14     together with others, whether others would decide.  At least that does

15     not appear from this document.  I just wanted to clarify this with you.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I will show three more documents, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

18             MR. LUKIC:  It might be more clear after.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but on the basis of this document and the

20     witness apparently not knowing anything about it, the best way would have

21     done to ask the witness:  Do you know who decided on the release of

22     prisoners?  Because with the document, if he has no knowledge of the

23     document, if he has no knowledge at all about this matter, then there's

24     no need to show him such kind of documents.  You can bar table them or

25     introduce them in any other way, but please proceed.

Page 5445

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Since it was proposed by the Prosecution to be

 2     introduced through this witness, we tried to explore the same matter,

 3     although the Prosecution didn't address the document in their direct

 4     examination.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know for what purpose the Prosecution

 6     intended to do so to establish that Mr. Krnojelac was the commander of

 7     the penitentiary institution, or I do -- I have got no idea.  And I'm

 8     just addressing you at this moment since you're using it.  Please

 9     proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  And we have the wrong document on the screen.  I'm

11     sorry.  I wanted to call 09278.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, we shall not dwell on this very

13     long.  Let me just ask you this:  Do you know, as His Honour Judge Orie

14     suggested that I should ask you, who decided on the intake and release of

15     prisoners at the Foca KP Dom at the time?

16        A.   From what I heard, Momo Mandic was the main man for all these

17     camps and at the Crisis Staff it was Todovic - what was his first name?

18     I can't remember really, I've forgotten - Todovic was the one.  I don't

19     know, but Todovic was there and we looked through the window.  Whenever

20     he prayed, whenever he appeared, he entered the compound of the KP Dom

21     between the pavilions and the administration building.  He used to pass

22     through there and we used to look at him.  He came to the restaurant for

23     breakfast and lunch, Todovic.  I can't remember his first name.

24        Q.   Savo Todovic?

25        A.   Yes, Savo Todovic, that's right.

Page 5446

 1        Q.   All right.  Now that you've mentioned Mr. Mandic --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- can we please see the document 11178 in e-court.  While it's

 4     being pulled up, let me ask you:  Do you know by whose orders the

 5     investigators at the KP Dom Foca were working?

 6        A.   No, I don't know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Here we have a document showing that a person by

 8     order of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Foca was

 9     released from the KP Dom on the 7th of July, 1992.  And I will ask you

10     this:  Did you know Ibrahim Celik?

11        A.   Ibrahim Celik?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   I only saw him when he left.  I knew him -- I saw him in the room

14     when he left, and he hoped - it was as if he had a hunch or it was some

15     sort of agreement - that he would leave.  And I know that he did leave,

16     nothing more.

17        Q.   Do you remember approximately could that have taken place in

18     July?

19        A.   Yes, I think it was about that time.

20             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender this document, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

22             Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 65 ter number 11178 becomes

24     Exhibit D103.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D103 is admitted into evidence.

Page 5447

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put one question to the witness in relation

 2     to this document.

 3             I see on the bottom of this document the name Radovan Mandic.

 4     Witness, is that the same person as Momo Mandic as you told us this name

 5     earlier?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of Radovan Mandic

 7     but I have heard of Momo Mandic.  I'm not certain if it was the one or

 8     the other.  I know Momo Mandic.  But as for Radovan Mandic, I don't know

 9     him, no, and this is not clear to me.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Bear with me, Your Honours.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think the next document can clarify Judge Fluegge's

14     question, if we can see the document 11167 on the screen, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, are you about to establish the identity

16     of Mr. Momcilo Mandic or is there any dispute about it -- about his

17     identity and about his position at the time?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I need one more clarification from the witness --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  From the witness --

20             MR. LUKIC:  If he can give it to us --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because he said he only heard about the

22     position of Momo Mandic.  Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you know that Milorad Krnojelac was

25     the head of the KP Dom in Foca at the time?

Page 5448

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You also mentioned Momo Mandic.  Did you know that he was the

 3     justice minister at the time?

 4        A.   I know that he was the deputy minister of the interior in

 5     Sarajevo.  This is what I know, but what he was in the Serbian republic I

 6     wouldn't know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know at the time that all prisons in the

 8     former Yugoslavia were actually under the control of the

 9     Ministry of Justice?

10        A.   No, I didn't know that.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We will not tender this since the witness didn't

13     confirm that the relationship between Ministry of Justice and detention

14     facilities.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I don't know whether there's any dispute about

16     this, but ...

17             That's -- perhaps on the next break to discuss whether these

18     matters are in dispute or not.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please bring back the

22     document - [In English] I have to match the numbers - [Interpretation]

23     P536.

24        Q.   First of all, you know what this is, don't you?  The Prosecutor

25     showed you the list of people who were released from the KP Dom in Foca

Page 5449

 1     in order to be exchanged, and under number 16 on this list we can see

 2     your name as well.  And I will ask you something relating to this

 3     document.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So can we please now zoom in on the

 5     top of this document with the date.  And if we can zoom in so that the

 6     witness can see it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It should not be broadcast.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's under seal.  I think that Mr. Registrar has

 9     much better control over this issue than us.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, we can see here that it is written in the

11     document that the persons are released from the KPD Foca on the

12     21st of October, 1992.  Were you released from the Foca KPD thereabouts?

13        A.   No.  We were released on the 31st of October from the KP Dom and

14     we went in the direction of Tjentiste, then Kalinovik, and, yes, we had

15     to go around in order to reach Kalinovik.

16        Q.   All right.  Something was not clear to me, though the Chamber

17     said that it was clear to them, so thank you for explaining to me the

18     confusion about the dates in this document.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20        Q.   You said that you know half of the people from this list?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And do you know where the other half of the people were from?

23     Because I suppose that if they had been from Foca you would have known

24     them.

25        A.   They were all from the Foca municipality, but they came from

Page 5450

 1     various places:  Miljevina, Bijelic, Ustikolina, and so on.  But they

 2     were all from the Foca municipality.  That's why I know them, because I

 3     had contacts with many people.  I know almost everyone but I cannot

 4     remember now because it's been 20 years now and I have this trauma and I

 5     was also ill, so it's very difficult for me to remember everything.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             Microphone for the counsel, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think microphone was switched on, so we can

10     proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, do you know where the villages

13     Cerovo Ravni, and Osanice were located?  Were they in the Foca

14     municipality?

15        A.   The village is Osanica rather than Osanice.  Ravni, I don't know.

16     And as for Osanica, and what was the other one you mentioned?

17        Q.   Cerovo Ravni, yes, I know.

18        A.   Cerovo Ravni, it's up towards -- towards --

19        Q.   Is it in the Foca municipality?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  It's Slatina, Cerova Ravan, it's a village like a

21     meadow so it was called Cerova Ravan.  I went there.  That was where

22     people mostly gathered on the 27th of July for a picnic, you know, in the

23     former Yugoslavia when we celebrated.  So there was a celebration and so

24     on.

25        Q.   You mean the day of the uprising in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 5451

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   It's not in the transcript, so I will ask you again.  You mean

 3     the day of the uprising from the Second World War was celebrated?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  Cerova Ravan, Preluca, yes, I know all these places.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear at the time about the fighting that was

 6     going on between the forces loyal to Alija Izetbegovic and the forces of

 7     the Serbs in these places, Cerovo Ravni and Osanica?

 8        A.   No, I didn't hear, no.

 9        Q.   You don't know how big -- how many troops were there?

10        A.   No, no, no, nothing at all.  I've no idea at all about this

11     because I didn't really listen to that sort of thing much.  I had my

12     duty.  I needed to work to make something for people.  I'm a handyman and

13     I wanted to earn a few dinars.  That was what was important for me.

14        Q.   Just a second.  Did you know Mujko Zametica?

15        A.   Mujko, yes, I did.

16        Q.   How did you know him?  What did he do?

17        A.   I knew him as a miner.  He used to work in warehouse.  He issued

18     tools for the miners who were going to the pit to work.  This is what he

19     did and this is how I remember him.

20        Q.   You don't know anything about his political or military

21     engagement?

22        A.   No, no, I don't know anything.

23        Q.   Do you know who were the main SDA people in Foca?

24        A.   I don't know, no.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

Page 5452

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Just one minute, Your Honours, I just want to check

 2     if any questions are left.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] As far as I can see, these are all the questions

 4     I had for you.  Thank you for answering them.

 5        A.   Welcome.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Any need for re-examination by the Prosecution?

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Just on one point that came up in relation to

 8     questions about the exhibit now numbered as D103.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

12        Q.   Sir, Defence counsel showed you a document on the screen showing

13     that a certain Ibrahim Celik was released from the KP Dom on the 7th of

14     July of 1992.  And towards the bottom of the document it says the person

15     named must report daily to the police station of the Serbian municipality

16     of Foca.  I want to ask whether you know if it was safe for any Muslims

17     who were released from the KP Dom in the summer of 1992 to live freely in

18     Foca?

19        A.   No, no.  I don't know what happened to this Celik man, how he was

20     released.  There were some who were released earlier than envisaged, and

21     then they were captured by other Chetniks in town and killed.  So I may

22     have been lucky to have kept longer because later on when the ICRC

23     arrived I was registered and I felt safer, whereas those who were

24     released earlier were captured by other Chetniks as soon as they got out

25     and they were killed.  I know such cases.

Page 5453

 1             MR. ELDERKIN:  That's my only question.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I would have one question for you.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that looking at the list of names of

 6     people that would be exchanged or any other name mentioned in your

 7     statement of Muslims detained in KP Dom, those you knew - and I think you

 8     told us that you knew many of them - do you know of any of those you knew

 9     who was involved in arming or combat or armed battle against -- do you

10     know of any of those you are familiar with to have been involved in

11     military activity in -- of whatever kind?  I mean military activity

12     before -- well, let's say the last six months before you were arrested

13     and detained?

14        A.   No, I don't know anything.  I don't know that man.  Those were

15     mainly villagers, farmers, workers who had absolutely nothing to do with

16     weapons.  They couldn't even afford to buy one if they wanted to.  For a

17     year before it all started we got only coupons instead of salaries to be

18     able to buy bread and flour.  Out of all those people I don't know anyone

19     who had anything to do with any attacks or any weapons.  I don't know any

20     such person.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And they lived in similar circumstances as you were

22     living in, that is, doing your job, trying to earn some money --

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and look after your family.  That's the -- that's

25     how you knew them?

Page 5454

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, have the questions in re-examination or

 5     questions by the Judges triggered any need for further questions?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I would ask one more question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, if triggered by these questions.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you, Witness, have any knowledge whatsoever

12     about armed units of Muslims in the territory of Foca?

13        A.   I don't know about any units.  In all my life that I lived in

14     Foca until the moment I was detained and was kept in the KP Dom in prison

15     for seven or eight months, I knew of no such thing.  Whenever a shot

16     would be heard from the rifle I would wonder what it is.  I never had any

17     knowledge about any weapons or anyone who had them.  I myself never held

18     a rifle or a pistol.  I never torched, never raped.  (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)  I'm sick and tired of everything.  I don't

21     care for life anymore and I will probably end it myself.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, this concludes your testimony in this

23     Court.  The Chamber understands why thinking back of these times makes

24     you emotional.  We'd like to thank you that despite how difficult it may

25     be to look back that you have come to The Hague and that you've answered

Page 5455

 1     all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,

 2     and I wish you a safe return home again.  For you to -- before you leave

 3     the courtroom - I'm addressing the parties - I would like to take the

 4     break immediately.  After the break we'll continue in open session with

 5     the next witness.

 6             Ms. Marcus.

 7             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to request

 8     that the testimony of the next witness, Witness Hamill, commence tomorrow

 9     morning, as that would give us the remainder of the day to continue the

10     proofing, Your Honours.  That would, nonetheless, as I asserted earlier

11     this morning, allow us to continue within the time using tomorrow and

12     Thursday without any need for any extra sessions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is confirmed by the Defence?  I see you are

14     nodding "yes."

15             Which means that we adjourn for the day and we will resume

16     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 21 --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, just a few

18     words, please?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, you may say a few words.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came here to tell the truth and I

21     want to thank you, Presiding Judge and Your Honours and all of you who

22     are doing such an excellent job, and I wish you all the best.  First of

23     all, good health.  If your health is good, everything else will be all

24     right.  And you, too, please write me a paper that I have been here, that

25     I'm able to show it to others, that I have been here, and that I have

Page 5456

 1     full trust in you.  I want to show it to my people back where I come

 2     from.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  For that last part you should have to discuss that

 4     with the Victims and Witnesses Section, but we gladly accept your wishes

 5     for our good health and for our job to be done properly.  And of course

 6     the Chamber wishes you - and I think also on behalf of the

 7     parties - wishes you also the best possible health for the near future.

 8             We adjourn for the day but not until after the witness has left

 9     the courtroom and we have to go into closed session for that.  Curtains

10     down, please.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5457

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Before we adjourn perhaps we could still deal with the exhibits

10     still outstanding from last Friday, though I do not have a list and I

11     don't know whether you're able to address the matters or whether we need

12     one of your colleagues for that.

13             MS. MARCUS:  Just a moment, Your Honour, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was Mr. Jeremy who dealt with it.

15             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, if we could do that tomorrow morning

16     first thing, that would be --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think we can do that if that does not

18     interfere with your plans to finish on Thursday.  There's no problem and

19     it might be a bit overdone to have another session exclusively for that

20     purpose.

21             So we will -- yes, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Just briefly, Your Honours.  I know that we are over

23     time.  We have one filing due Friday --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- regarding 70 bis [sic] and it's for four witnesses

Page 5458

 1     that should come in December --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Rule 70?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  70.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the transcript says "70 bis" but ...

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Is it possible -- actually, we now ask for at least

 6     short extension because we are not sure that we can finish it on

 7     Friday --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- but since the next week we don't sit in trial,

10     if --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  -- it is possible to have it due the next week.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think as far as the Chamber is concerned, there

14     was not that much of a problem, but since the witness was scheduled to

15     appear relatively quickly we wondered whether we could receive your

16     response as early as possible.  But if then a short time -- but --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Monday, Tuesday next week?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Monday, Tuesday -- these are matters which we'll

19     have to decide upon before the witness appears.  That might become our

20     problem and that's all due to the late filing by the Prosecution.  But I

21     don't have the details on my mind yet.  I'll just consult my colleagues.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's always good to consult with others.  One of my

24     colleagues drew my attention to the fact that one of these witnesses is

25     scheduled to testify in the new month of December.  If you could already

Page 5459

 1     give a response for this one witness.  For the others it's less

 2     problematic, I would say, because we have still sufficient time.  Is that

 3     a possibility that you would focus on this one witness first and then if

 4     you want to take another whole week for the rest.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And that also accommodates the Prosecution, I take

 9     it.

10             Then we will adjourn for the day.  We will resume tomorrow, the

11     21st of November, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.03 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

14                           November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.