1 Tuesday, 20 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 I was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise a
12 preliminary issue about scheduling, if I understood well.
13 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning. Just to inform the
14 Chamber that following our discussion yesterday that we discussed with
15 our colleagues on the Defence and we have agreed that we can finish with
16 Witness Djozo if we commence on Thursday and we will finish within the
17 scheduled hearing time on Thursday without any need to extend on Thursday
18 or go into Friday. Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber appreciates your efforts.
20 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. I'd
22 like to go into private session for one moment, but, yes, the witness is
23 here and ready.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
25 Good morning, Witness RM063. Before you give evidence, the Rules
1 require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to
2 you now. I would like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: RM063
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM063, you will testify with protective
10 measures. No one outside this courtroom will see your face, no one will
11 hear your own voice, and we'll address you not by your own name but we'll
12 call you Witness RM063. Further, we will take a break every hour. If
13 you need another break, don't hesitate to address me and ask for it and
14 then we'll try to accommodate you as good as we can.
15 You will now first be examined by --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now first be examined by Mr. Elderkin.
18 Mr. Elderkin is counsel for the Prosecution.
19 You may proceed, Mr. Elderkin.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll start with a
21 slightly unusual point. I can see from here the chair is very high for
22 the witness. I know I had to lower it when we came in yesterday. Sorry
23 to ask this, but it rather looks like he's having to stand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM063, again, if you feel uncomfortable in
25 any way, don't hesitate to tell us.
1 Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much.
3 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
4 Q. Sir, as you know, you have the protective measures, as the Judge
5 has referred to, so I will not be referring to you by your name but I
6 will use your pseudonym or call you "sir" or "witness." Please also try
7 to help by not giving away personal details that may reveal your
8 identity. If you need to say any such things in one of your answers,
9 please indicate and I can ask the Judges that we go into private session.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see, please, 65 ter number 28545, and
11 this should not be broadcast.
12 Q. So without reading aloud what is on the screen, is that your
13 name? Sir, would it help if the screen is magnified, or do you need to
14 move closer?
15 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
16 Q. And at the bottom of the screen, is that your correct date of
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, please can this document be admitted
20 under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 28545 becomes Exhibit P530.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P530 is admitted under seal.
24 MR. ELDERKIN:
25 Q. Sir, since you arrived in The Hague on Saturday, did you read
1 your statements from 1996 and 1998 concerning your war time experiences?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: Please can we see 65 ter 28542, again which should
4 not be broadcast.
5 Q. Sir, you should see on the left text in your language and on the
6 right text in English with a signature at the bottom right. Do you
7 recognise the signature at the bottom right?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Whose signature is that?
10 A. Mine.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could go for a moment into private session,
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we please see the last page in both
9 languages. It's page 9 in the English and page 10 in B/C/S.
10 Q. Again, sir, is that also your signature close to the top of the
11 page in the English language version?
12 A. It is.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Please could we now see page 2 in both languages,
14 and if we can zoom in to capture the sentence just above the first
15 redaction box, please.
16 Q. Sir, looking above that first black box there is a sentence which
17 currently reads:
18 "Prior to the war I was a member of the SDA party, but I was not
19 actively involved in politics."
20 Do you have any correction to that sentence?
21 A. No, no, I was not a member. I was a follower, a sympathiser. I
22 watched the promotion rallies, but I've never been a member. This is not
23 correct. I don't have a membership booklet, I never asked for one, I
24 didn't need one, but I opted like all ethnic Muslims. But I didn't need
25 membership and I couldn't even afford to pay the membership fees. The
1 thought never occurred to me, I didn't want it. I was a worker --
2 Q. Sir, I wanted to interrupt you for a moment. I just wanted to
3 ask about the correction to that sentence and I think we have a
4 satisfactory answer on the record now. So I'll be following up with some
5 further questions, but if we can try to keep -- my questions will be
6 short and focused, and if we can try also to have answers that are short
7 and focused.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we now see 65 ter 28543, which also should
9 not be broadcast.
10 Q. Sir, do you recognise the signature at the bottom right which is
11 on the English language version again?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Again, whose signature is that, please?
14 A. Mine.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we also see, please, the last page in both
16 languages and just give the witness time to see the signature there.
17 Q. Sir, looking at the top right, again, is that your signature?
18 A. Yes, but I'd like to ask you to turn up the lighting. I can't
19 see these letters very well and my eyeglasses are not fit for this kind
20 of viewing. Perhaps the screen should be moved closer to me or perhaps
21 further from me.
22 Q. Sir, the Court Usher is coming to assist; if not, I also have
23 hard copies of all the documents that I'm referring to. So if that can't
24 be adjusted then with the leave of the Court and Defence's agreement I
25 can always offer to show those. We're at this stage almost finished with
1 these documents.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 MR. ELDERKIN:
4 Q. Sir, does that help now that the screen has been blown up
6 A. Yes, yes, it does.
7 Q. And is that your signature, please?
8 A. It is. It is.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we can go back, please, just to the first
10 page and zoom in on the area where the date of birth is in the centre of
11 the page about halfway down. You need to go towards the top, please, and
12 right in the middle now.
13 Q. So without reading aloud the date, but do you agree that the
14 figure in the middle of that page should be corrected to give the date of
15 birth that you mentioned earlier?
16 A. I don't see any dates here. My screen is black -- oh, now it is
17 there. This is wrong. This is wrong.
18 Q. I wouldn't ask you to say your actual date of birth because we're
19 in open session, but do you agree that that should be corrected in
20 accordance with the documents that we saw earlier?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Sir, bearing in mind --
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. Bearing in mind the corrections that you have made to these two
25 documents, do these statements truthfully and accurately reflect your
1 answers during your interviews in 1996 and 1998?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Would you give the same answers if you were examined here today
4 under the oath that you have taken and asked the same questions?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd tender now these two statements,
7 65 ter 28542, 28543, both under seal. There's also one associated
8 exhibit, 28544. That can be a public exhibit. I also plan to use that
9 with the witness, so I'm happy to wait for tendering that or for it to be
10 numbered now if it will be accepted.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the 1996 statement ... ?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28542 becomes Exhibit P531.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P531 is admitted under seal.
14 Next statement.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28543 becomes Exhibit P532.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P532 is admitted under seal.
17 And then the associated exhibit -- I've not looked at it yet,
18 Mr. Elderkin, but there's no initials or something like that on the
20 MR. ELDERKIN: There is some handwriting on there which the
21 witness has indicated he doesn't recognise.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the last one, Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28544 becomes Exhibit P533, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, P533 is admitted
25 as a public exhibit.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: I would now like to read a short summary of the
3 witness's evidence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained to the witness the purpose of it?
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed.
7 RM063 is a Bosnian Muslim from Foca. He was in Foca when it was
8 attacked by Serb military forces starting on the 6th of April, 1992. He
9 left to go to Gorazde but sought refuge in Pilipovici with other Muslims
10 who were fleeing. On the 26th of April, 1992, the Serbs captured the
11 Muslims in Pilipovici. They separated the men from the women and
12 children. RM063 was among a group of men randomly selected to be shot,
13 but he managed to return to the crowd. The other selected men were shot.
14 The Muslims were taken first to a women's prison at Velecevo,
15 then they were taken to the KP Dom in Foca arriving in the evening.
16 RM063 was detained at the KP Dom for several months. During this period,
17 his weight fell from 85 kilogrammes to 39 kilogrammes. Other detainees
18 were tortured and beaten and many Muslim men were taken away by the Serb
19 guards and never seen again.
20 RM063 was in a group of prisoners taken for exchange on the
21 31st of October, 1992. He was first taken for several days to the police
22 station in Kalinovik, where he was beaten and his ribs broken, kept in
23 solitary confinement, and given no medical treatment. After ten days,
24 RM063 was exchanged.
25 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. I'd like to ask, before
1 I continue with further questions, if the witness is feeling well enough
2 to carry on with questioning or if he needs to take a moment.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we take a short break because
4 this is all coming back to me and I'm crying. I would appreciate a short
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We take a short break, but the curtains should be
8 down for that purpose before the witness can be escorted out of the
10 Witness, would five minutes for a short break be okay with you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's enough.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to leave the courtroom, that's okay.
13 If you would like to leave the courtroom for five minutes, that would be
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't need to.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just tell us when you feel good enough to continue,
18 then we'll pull the curtains up again, but take your time.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can start.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the curtains be pulled up again.
21 Mr. Elderkin, you may proceed.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you some additional questions firstly about
24 the detention situation at the KP Dom in Foca.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'd ask that we can see, please, Exhibit P533.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: And this shows the KP Dom.
3 Q. Once it's up, I'd ask if the usher should come, please, with the
4 electronic pen as I'll ask you to point to various parts of the image and
5 explain the site to us.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could rotate it around the left and as large
7 as possible, please, on the screen. That's good. Thank you.
8 Q. Sir, do you recognise this illustration as the KP Dom?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Using the electronic pen the usher will hand to you, could you
11 please indicate with a number 1 written nice and large the building in
12 which you were first detained. Don't worry about making any mistakes,
13 sir, the usher can always correct that.
14 A. This is pavilion 1 and this is pavilion 2. I was first in
15 pavilion 1 so here is the marking.
16 Q. I understand from your statement, sir, that you were in rooms
17 that had numbers, the first being number 11 and the second being number
18 16. Is that correct or would it help you to see your statement if you
19 can't remember?
20 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could zoom in, perhaps, on the building
22 where we have the two markings now, so right in the centre of that open
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will lose the markings.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Ah, I forgot that technical detail.
1 Q. Let's stick with the image we have, sir, and I would say that
2 reading just above your left-hand marking I see a reference which says I
3 think room 11 above the left-hand red dot. Can you see that? I'm afraid
4 the writing is quite small.
5 A. Yes, I can see that. That's right, but I can see it. It's fine.
6 It's just the right size.
7 Q. Is that where you recall the location of room 11?
8 A. Yes. Excuse me, yes. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And now looking at the red marking to the right and a bit lower
10 and there I see handwriting saying "room 16," can you tell me if you can
11 see that writing as well just underneath your red dot?
12 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can see that, yes.
13 Q. Is that where you recall the location of room 16?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And, sir, looking towards the bottom of the screen, so just
16 underneath where it says "room 16," there's a building --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- with three big trees in front of it and there's an arrow
19 pointing upwards saying "ulaz." So what is that building, if you
21 A. That was the -- the entrance was when we went down to the
22 restaurant and when we returned that was the entrance to the building for
23 us, the entrance to the blocks. From the -- I mean, from the blocks into
24 the administration building, and then from the administration building
25 into the blocks, and this -- I think that this was the restaurant where
1 we went to take our meals, this building. Somehow I cannot recognise it
2 at all.
3 Q. That's no problem, sir. I think we can finish with that image
4 for the moment.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: In terms of it having the marked exhibit admitted,
6 I think I've indicated enough information based on the basic image that
7 we don't necessary need to save this, but I'm in Your Honour's hands if
8 you prefer to have that saved.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, since we invited the witness to mark it then I
10 think it would for the understanding of the testimony better to have it
11 on the record and saved. The Chamber wonders to what extent the layout
12 of the buildings for this witness is of such importance that further
13 questions should be put to him on the matter. I do not know. There may
14 be some follow-up and challenges to the layout, but from what we've seen
15 until now it's not entirely clear why the layout needs this kind of
17 Mr. Registrar, the sketch marked by the witness would be?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Marked version of Exhibit P533 becomes
19 Exhibit P534, Your Honours.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got something else to say.
21 This arrow which I'm looking at I only recognise it now. This was the
22 entrance from the pavilions to the administration building. This is
23 where we went in here and this is where we went out, and this is where
24 they took people away and they returned them through this door. So this
25 is the entrance to the administration building and leading outside to the
1 road. I remember. I remember the entrance and the exit now. It's all
3 JUDGE ORIE: P --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember all of that. I remember
5 it all, but, gentlemen, it has been almost 20 years ago so one tends to
6 forget a bit and I can't really see well so I have remembered now. So
7 it's as I have just told you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is fine as far as the Chamber is
9 concerned, Witness.
10 P534 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Elderkin.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: We don't need to see that image on screen anymore.
13 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you now about the reasons why you and other
14 Muslims at the KP Dom were held in detention. In your statements you
15 describe how you were first interrogated more than three weeks after you
16 arrived at the KP Dom. My first question is: What was the reason that
17 you were detained?
18 A. I don't understand that at all. I wonder why myself. I was an
19 employee of an enterprise and I got along nicely with the Serbs. I
20 visited their homes. I used to work in their homes. I worked together
21 with them. We would greet each other. We liked each other. We
22 socialised and everything. I don't know why at all, but let me describe
23 to you how it all began. I don't know what was the reason for me to have
24 been kept in prison for such a long time. There was no indictment
25 whatsoever. I did not have any weapons. I didn't kill anyone. I didn't
1 rape anyone. I didn't torch any house. I didn't do anything. I was an
2 employee, a worker. I worked. Whoever needed my service, a Serb or a
3 Muslim, or anyone, I helped everyone in my life. I helped the poor. I
4 helped those who were in want. I helped to men, children, women, the
5 elderly, to everyone as much as I could --
6 Q. Excuse me, sir --
7 A. -- and I only relied on -- yes.
8 Q. So thank you again for your answer. I understand you have a lot
9 to say. Please do listen carefully to my questions and I will try to
10 lead you through in a structured way to hear what you have to tell the
11 Court. My next question: Were you ever charged with any offence while
12 you were a detainee at the KP Dom?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness just told us, isn't it,
14 Mr. Elderkin? It would be good not only to focus on your questions but
15 also to listen to the answers the witness gives. Or is it in his
16 statement? He says there was no indictment whatsoever. That's what he
17 says and I'm --
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Fine. Yes, I see --
19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness, in his statement, we read that he has
20 no criminal record, so ...
21 MR. ELDERKIN: I read the statement to refer to his criminal
22 record prior to the war time period so I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now the answer gave the information.
24 Could we perhaps -- Witness, did you gain the impression that you
25 were detained solely because you were a Muslim?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only because I was a Muslim. I did
2 not do anything. I was at home and they started shelling from all sides.
3 We spent ten days in the basement waiting for the time to pass, for all
4 this to stop. And so --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I interrupt you for a moment. I thought
6 where you said that you had done nothing, that you were not accused of
7 anything, that I just wanted to verify with you whether you thought it
8 was only on the basis of your ethnicity that you were detained.
9 Mr. Elderkin will now put further questions to you.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Your Honours, I'd ask to show a document which has been given a
12 provisional 65 ter number as 65 ter 28561 and it shouldn't be broadcast.
13 It's a list that was drawn up during the witness's proofing yesterday and
14 it's a list of names on which the witness has made comments. The Defence
15 has been provided with this. The list --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could we further zoom in on the -- yes, it's -- the
17 English is between the names and the -- could we still zoom in a bit more
18 for the witness. Yes.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could just scroll down to see the signature
20 at the bottom right.
21 Q. Sir, do you recognise the signature on the bottom right?
22 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's my signature.
23 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could quickly put on the screen the next
24 two pages to see that those are also signed, please. And the third page,
1 Q. Sir, can you confirm that during our meeting yesterday you made
2 the comments summarised in this typed-up document and that you've signed
3 this, showing that you have reviewed those comments?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do those comments relate to men whose names appear in this
6 list about whom you had some information as to what happened to them when
7 they were taken from the KP Dom?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 28561 as an under
10 seal exhibit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: We'll probably cross-examine this witness on this
13 document to see how he knows all the data contained in the document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you'd say there's no -- of course you can
15 cross-examine the witness on it.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is this an admissibility issue or what's the --
18 MR. LUKIC: Well --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If there would be an objection to the admission,
20 what would be the objection?
21 MR. LUKIC: The objection is that this data was -- has never been
22 provided before in this detail, although the witness testified before.
23 So we would try to investigate further with the witness --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
25 MR. LUKIC: -- about his knowledge.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: That goes to weight, not to admissibility, but of
3 course you can cross-examine the witness on it.
4 Mr. Registrar, the number of this chart would be ... ?
5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 28561 becomes Exhibit P535, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. ELDERKIN:
9 Q. Sir, while you were making your comments about these individual
10 names --
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Perhaps we could zoom out as well, please,
12 actually, so we can see at least part of the document.
13 Q. So while you were making your comments about these names, did you
14 have the opportunity to review statements that you have made in the past
15 aside from the two statements we looked at today?
16 A. No, I did not have an opportunity to review them because these
17 were all statements where I did not mention these people. I remembered
18 them later on and I should have stated their names so I stated them now,
19 yes, yes.
20 Q. Sir, I'd like to turn now to the time when you left the KP Dom to
21 be exchanged, that was at the end of October 1992.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we please see 65 ter 14893 which should
23 not be broadcast, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we for the witness have the whole screen to be
1 MR. ELDERKIN:
2 Q. Sir, are those names clear enough for you to read the text?
3 A. I cannot see it clearly enough. It's a bit blurred.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we further enlarge and even if only part of --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, like that.
6 MR. ELDERKIN:
7 Q. Sir, could you just read to yourself the names you see on the
8 screen and say when you get to the bottom of what we see on the screen
9 and then we can see the next section, please.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see the next section from number 12 down,
13 Q. Again, please let us know when you've got to the bottom of that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. And again, please let us know when you get to the
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could scroll up so that 16 is visible,
21 Q. Sir, do you recognise the name at number 16; and if so, whose
22 name is that, please?
23 A. Yes, I recognise it. It is my name.
24 Q. Aside from your name, do you recognise any of the other names on
25 this list as people you knew?
1 A. From the whole list I know more than one-half of the people. I
2 remember them to this day let alone at that time. I knew all the people
3 my neighbours, including Serbs and Muslims and Croats. I am very
4 sociable and I was always the one who sought the company of people in
5 cafe restaurants. I socialised with them, talked --
6 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could go to the top, please, and see the
7 title of the document.
8 Q. You may need to zoom out so I'll read this in English in case
9 it's too small for you to read, sir. It reads:
10 "List of detainees to be released from Foca KPD on
11 21st October 1992 in order to be exchanged."
12 Sir, when were you actually released from the KP Dom?
13 A. Well, it was like this: A policeman, or rather, a guard of
14 theirs came to the door and called out the names. This is what he did
15 every day. When they took people to be shot or to be exchanged, the
16 policeman would come to the door of our room, the room where I was, room
17 number 16, and he would call out the names, Mr. So and so should come
18 out. I didn't know what to do. He also told me to pick up my things, so
19 I did and I went out. And I waited outside while the others from the
20 other pavilions whose names had already been read out gathered. So we
21 were waiting just in front of the door that I showed to you a little
22 while ago leading out from the pavilions and into the administration
23 building and we --
24 Q. Again, sir, excuse me --
25 A. -- waited there in front of the door until about 30 of us
1 gathered --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Elderkin, you asked a question, if I read page 7
3 of this statement I see a specific date mentioned there. So I do not
4 know what you are seeking to add to that, and of course it's clear to the
5 Chamber in view of the list that it's the same moment of the same year.
6 So we are wondering --
7 MR. ELDERKIN: I wanted simply to be fair to draw out the
8 difference in dates between that page and the other hoping for a shorter
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: But if we can just see the bottom of the exhibit,
12 the bottom left, where there is another signature and a date and I should
13 be finished with this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
15 MR. ELDERKIN:
16 Q. Sir, do you see a signature and the name "Vukovic Milenko,
17 komandir," and then the date of the 30th of October, 1992, there?
18 A. I personally do not know this man, Milenko Vukovic, I don't know
19 him. I just see his signature. It says he's from the military police of
20 Konjic. We were taken precisely by those men. They were called -- I
21 forget now what they were called. They had a particular name. I can't
22 remember. Anyway, they picked us up, shoved us into the car once we had
23 gotten out of the --
24 Q. If I may again interrupt, sir. Excuse me --
25 A. -- administrative building and then --
1 Q. So your answer on the document is helpful and for the rest of
2 your evidence please remember that it's in the statements that we've
3 already put before the Judges.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask at this point to tender 65 ter 14893 under
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes Exhibit P536, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
9 Mr. Elderkin, I am looking at the clock. We usually take a break
10 after one hour. How much more time would you need so that we can
11 consider whether to take -- the break should be taken now or --
12 MR. ELDERKIN: That was my last question.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This was your last question.
14 Then, Witness RM063, we'll take a break of approximately
15 20 minutes and after that break you'll be cross-examined, that is, that
16 Mr. Lukic will put some questions to you. But before you leave the
17 courtroom, the curtains should be pulled down.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: For the witness to enter the courtroom, we have to
23 go into closed session; that is, curtains down.
24 [Closed session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 Witness RM063, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll
18 find Mr. Lukic to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
19 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. In view of the fact that we understand each other, I will make a
25 short pause between our questions and answers just for the benefit of the
1 interpreters. It does not mean that anything is wrong. It's for
2 technical reasons.
3 Can we begin?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you should always switch off your
6 microphone when the witness is answering.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I forgot about it. Thank you for
8 reminding me.
9 Q. [Interpretation] You have told us that the fighting around Foca
10 began on 6 April 1992; that's what you stated in your statement. Today
11 you said Foca was shelled from all sides. My question is: In 1992 Foca
12 was populated by both Serbs and Muslims; correct?
13 A. Yes, and Croats as well.
14 Q. Thank you. In your statement of 10 February 1996 you say that
15 the attack on Foca lasted 12 days from the 6th until 18 April 1992. Who
16 was defending Foca?
17 A. Nobody, nobody was defending it. I don't know that anybody
18 defended it. I don't know that there was any defence of Foca. I am not
19 aware of that at all.
20 Q. Well then who did the Serbs fight for 12 days?
21 A. They were afraid that there might be army troops in Foca. They
22 wanted to clear the place up before they enter. That's what I know.
23 Q. Let me just sum up briefly to see if this is, indeed, your
25 A. All right.
1 Q. In Foca Muslims and Serbs were living. Nobody defended the town.
2 Serbs attacked and shelled for 12 days. Is this your evidence?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you know anything about SDA armed units in and
5 around Foca?
6 A. I did not know a thing. I wasn't even interested. I was a
7 religious man. I went to the mosque and back around noon. I worked in
8 my basement, in my own house as a tradesman. I prepared my work for
9 Serbs and Muslims alike. And in Foca, in all the businesses, salaries
10 were very low and I wanted to live normally. I wanted to earn my living.
11 That's all I was interested in.
12 Q. May we then conclude that you do not know which of the detained
13 people had participated in that fighting because you don't know who was
15 A. We shall conclude that I don't know which of the detainees had
16 been involved in the fighting because I really don't know that.
17 Q. Thank you. On the 13th of April, 1992, you set out towards
18 Gorazde and find shelter in a military depot?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The soldiers in that depot were of all ethnicities; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then you say you managed to send your son off to Sarajevo by
24 military helicopter?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where did your son depart for Sarajevo from?
2 A. A helicopter arrived from Sarajevo bringing food for troops,
3 their salaries, and whatnot. It landed in Pofalici [as interpreted]
4 between the hangars. These hangars served as warehouses or depots, I
5 don't really know. We were taking cover in one of the hangars from the
6 shooting, so shooting was going on. Anyway, this helicopter arrived from
7 Sarajevo. It brought supplies to this army company - I don't know what
8 else to call it. It brought equipment, food, salaries, and was supposed
9 to go back to Sarajevo. And the thing is, my son was working in Sarajevo
10 at the time and I'm telling you the truth, only the truth. He had come
11 to see me for the holiday of Bajram. It's a Muslim holiday. He had
12 arrived from Sarajevo, being still a student at the time, to wish me a
13 merry holiday and he was supposed to go back to Sarajevo the very next
14 day. However, returning was impossible because there were barricades all
15 around, a barricade towards Gorazde, on all sides. When I left my house
16 and started to look around, he accompanied me. And when that helicopter
17 arrived, I needed so badly to get him back to Sarajevo. He had already
18 graduated from university, actually. He was already working as an
19 engineer for a company. I needed to get him back there. I had no idea
20 that the war had started and was going to rage in Sarajevo and in Foca --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I interrupt you for a second. First
22 of all, because Mr. Elderkin is on his feet.
23 Mr. Elderkin.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: It's not an objection, but I see the name of the
25 place where the helicopter landed recorded as Pofalici. I've never heard
1 of that place. I wanted to see if it had been picked up correctly for
2 the sake of the transcript.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, also because there is -- one second, please,
4 Witness. There is a Pofalici in Sarajevo as well. That's -- now, first
5 of all, you said it landed in Pofalici. Is Pofalici somewhere near Foca
6 or in Foca, Witness?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I did not say "Pofalici"
8 and I will never say. It's Pilipovici.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that's --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's a place, Pilipovici.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's now clear on the record.
12 Witness, could I ask you: The only thing Mr. Lukic asked you is
13 from where that helicopter left. Then you started telling us the whole
14 story about it. Could I ask you to focus your answers very much on the
15 precise question of Mr. Lukic.
16 And, Mr. Lukic, I don't have to tell you that it's up to you to
17 get the witness back on track, apart from what the relevance of your
18 question was which is not yet clear to us exactly. Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: I didn't want to start with interruptions
20 immediately, Your Honour. I just tried to [overlapping speakers] --
21 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] relationship with the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is appreciated. I think you were wise to do
24 that. The issue is where do we stop. Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we are a bit short on time and we are
2 restricted. You noticed that the Prosecutor also sought brief answers,
3 and I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions as well
5 A. All right.
6 Q. You left the military depot on the 26th of April, 1992; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That depot was taken over by units made up of various uniformed
9 men, including some in civilian clothes carrying weapons?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it correct that they all had beards and long hair and had
12 cockades on their caps?
13 A. Yes, a variety of these things.
14 Q. When you got to the KP Dom in Foca, those people who were taking
15 you from the depot after having taken over the depot handed you over to
16 the guards at the KP Dom; correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. They handed us over to the guards of the
18 KP Dom and then those guards took us to Velecevo -- let me not repeat
19 what I've said before.
23 Q. Presented to RM063 in the course of proofing on 19 November 2012.
24 I will not show you the list again but you know which list I'm talking
25 about, the list of names?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you know all these names by heart or did somebody refresh
3 your memory and put those names to you as written here?
4 A. I knew most of them by name. I could remember their faces. I
5 talked to them before the war. I knew them before the war.
6 Q. You described for us the conditions of the KP Dom.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In several passages you said you'd heard from other people, such
9 as Hasan, that they were beaten by neighbours. Was that an important
10 point? Did they have a disagreement from before? What did Hasan say?
11 Why did his neighbours beat him?
12 A. He didn't say anything. It's just that when he was brought back
13 from Sabljica [phoen] on a stretcher, through tears and moaning he said,
14 I was beaten up by my own neighbours.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, microphone, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] When you arrived at the KP Dom, were you
21 A. They did not register us.
22 Q. You say they called out your names in form of a roll call or
24 A. They did not.
25 Q. They called you out later, didn't they?
1 A. Later they came to our rooms and took our names.
2 Q. So you were registered, although not upon arrival but later?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us call up in e-court
6 65 ter 08193.
7 Q. Just a moment, sir, this is a technical matter. You can take a
8 rest while it's done.
9 Witness, sir, we have received this document from the
11 A. Could you zoom in a little so I can see more clearly?
12 Q. Could we just look at the heading. Can you see now?
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. Do you see now that the penitentiary correctional facility of
15 Foca is addressing on 15 May 1992 the Crisis Staff of the Serb
16 Municipality of Foca?
17 A. I don't know who's addressing who. I can see what's written
18 here. I can't see very well, but I see, yes. Staff Foca. Could you
19 scroll up a bit.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom out a little now.
21 Q. Did you know at that time that the Crisis Staff of the
22 Serbian Municipality of Foca decided who would be released from the
23 KP Dom and who not?
24 A. No, we never knew that.
25 Q. Did you know Enes Zekovic?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. Do you know that he was released from the KP Dom and that he
3 returned to the town of Foca?
4 A. Enes Zekovic, he stayed on in the KP Dom after I had left.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 08444 in
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before you continue, you asked the
9 witness whether he knew that the Crisis Staff decided who would be
10 released. Is that because you think that is said in this document?
11 Because it doesn't say so, isn't it? It just says that they were
12 addressed and expected to take further action, whatever that action would
13 be, whether they would decide themselves, whether they would decide
14 together with others, whether others would decide. At least that does
15 not appear from this document. I just wanted to clarify this with you.
16 MR. LUKIC: I will show three more documents, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
18 MR. LUKIC: It might be more clear after.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but on the basis of this document and the
20 witness apparently not knowing anything about it, the best way would have
21 done to ask the witness: Do you know who decided on the release of
22 prisoners? Because with the document, if he has no knowledge of the
23 document, if he has no knowledge at all about this matter, then there's
24 no need to show him such kind of documents. You can bar table them or
25 introduce them in any other way, but please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: Since it was proposed by the Prosecution to be
2 introduced through this witness, we tried to explore the same matter,
3 although the Prosecution didn't address the document in their direct
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know for what purpose the Prosecution
6 intended to do so to establish that Mr. Krnojelac was the commander of
7 the penitentiary institution, or I do -- I have got no idea. And I'm
8 just addressing you at this moment since you're using it. Please
10 MR. LUKIC: And we have the wrong document on the screen. I'm
11 sorry. I wanted to call 09278.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, we shall not dwell on this very
13 long. Let me just ask you this: Do you know, as His Honour Judge Orie
14 suggested that I should ask you, who decided on the intake and release of
15 prisoners at the Foca KP Dom at the time?
16 A. From what I heard, Momo Mandic was the main man for all these
17 camps and at the Crisis Staff it was Todovic - what was his first name?
18 I can't remember really, I've forgotten - Todovic was the one. I don't
19 know, but Todovic was there and we looked through the window. Whenever
20 he prayed, whenever he appeared, he entered the compound of the KP Dom
21 between the pavilions and the administration building. He used to pass
22 through there and we used to look at him. He came to the restaurant for
23 breakfast and lunch, Todovic. I can't remember his first name.
24 Q. Savo Todovic?
25 A. Yes, Savo Todovic, that's right.
1 Q. All right. Now that you've mentioned Mr. Mandic --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- can we please see the document 11178 in e-court. While it's
4 being pulled up, let me ask you: Do you know by whose orders the
5 investigators at the KP Dom Foca were working?
6 A. No, I don't know.
7 Q. Thank you. Here we have a document showing that a person by
8 order of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Foca was
9 released from the KP Dom on the 7th of July, 1992. And I will ask you
10 this: Did you know Ibrahim Celik?
11 A. Ibrahim Celik?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I only saw him when he left. I knew him -- I saw him in the room
14 when he left, and he hoped - it was as if he had a hunch or it was some
15 sort of agreement - that he would leave. And I know that he did leave,
16 nothing more.
17 Q. Do you remember approximately could that have taken place in
19 A. Yes, I think it was about that time.
20 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
22 Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours 65 ter number 11178 becomes
24 Exhibit D103.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D103 is admitted into evidence.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness in relation
2 to this document.
3 I see on the bottom of this document the name Radovan Mandic.
4 Witness, is that the same person as Momo Mandic as you told us this name
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't heard of Radovan Mandic
7 but I have heard of Momo Mandic. I'm not certain if it was the one or
8 the other. I know Momo Mandic. But as for Radovan Mandic, I don't know
9 him, no, and this is not clear to me.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 MR. LUKIC: Bear with me, Your Honours.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 MR. LUKIC: I think the next document can clarify Judge Fluegge's
14 question, if we can see the document 11167 on the screen, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are you about to establish the identity
16 of Mr. Momcilo Mandic or is there any dispute about it -- about his
17 identity and about his position at the time?
18 MR. LUKIC: I need one more clarification from the witness --
19 JUDGE ORIE: From the witness --
20 MR. LUKIC: If he can give it to us --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because he said he only heard about the
22 position of Momo Mandic. Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you know that Milorad Krnojelac was
25 the head of the KP Dom in Foca at the time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also mentioned Momo Mandic. Did you know that he was the
3 justice minister at the time?
4 A. I know that he was the deputy minister of the interior in
5 Sarajevo. This is what I know, but what he was in the Serbian republic I
6 wouldn't know.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you know at the time that all prisons in the
8 former Yugoslavia were actually under the control of the
9 Ministry of Justice?
10 A. No, I didn't know that.
11 Q. All right. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: We will not tender this since the witness didn't
13 confirm that the relationship between Ministry of Justice and detention
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. I don't know whether there's any dispute about
16 this, but ...
17 That's -- perhaps on the next break to discuss whether these
18 matters are in dispute or not.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please bring back the
22 document - [In English] I have to match the numbers - [Interpretation]
24 Q. First of all, you know what this is, don't you? The Prosecutor
25 showed you the list of people who were released from the KP Dom in Foca
1 in order to be exchanged, and under number 16 on this list we can see
2 your name as well. And I will ask you something relating to this
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So can we please now zoom in on the
5 top of this document with the date. And if we can zoom in so that the
6 witness can see it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It should not be broadcast.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's under seal. I think that Mr. Registrar has
9 much better control over this issue than us.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we can see here that it is written in the
11 document that the persons are released from the KPD Foca on the
12 21st of October, 1992. Were you released from the Foca KPD thereabouts?
13 A. No. We were released on the 31st of October from the KP Dom and
14 we went in the direction of Tjentiste, then Kalinovik, and, yes, we had
15 to go around in order to reach Kalinovik.
16 Q. All right. Something was not clear to me, though the Chamber
17 said that it was clear to them, so thank you for explaining to me the
18 confusion about the dates in this document.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 Q. You said that you know half of the people from this list?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you know where the other half of the people were from?
23 Because I suppose that if they had been from Foca you would have known
25 A. They were all from the Foca municipality, but they came from
1 various places: Miljevina, Bijelic, Ustikolina, and so on. But they
2 were all from the Foca municipality. That's why I know them, because I
3 had contacts with many people. I know almost everyone but I cannot
4 remember now because it's been 20 years now and I have this trauma and I
5 was also ill, so it's very difficult for me to remember everything.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 Microphone for the counsel, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think microphone was switched on, so we can
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, do you know where the villages
13 Cerovo Ravni, and Osanice were located? Were they in the Foca
15 A. The village is Osanica rather than Osanice. Ravni, I don't know.
16 And as for Osanica, and what was the other one you mentioned?
17 Q. Cerovo Ravni, yes, I know.
18 A. Cerovo Ravni, it's up towards -- towards --
19 Q. Is it in the Foca municipality?
20 A. Yes, yes. It's Slatina, Cerova Ravan, it's a village like a
21 meadow so it was called Cerova Ravan. I went there. That was where
22 people mostly gathered on the 27th of July for a picnic, you know, in the
23 former Yugoslavia when we celebrated. So there was a celebration and so
25 Q. You mean the day of the uprising in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. It's not in the transcript, so I will ask you again. You mean
3 the day of the uprising from the Second World War was celebrated?
4 A. Yes, yes. Cerova Ravan, Preluca, yes, I know all these places.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you hear at the time about the fighting that was
6 going on between the forces loyal to Alija Izetbegovic and the forces of
7 the Serbs in these places, Cerovo Ravni and Osanica?
8 A. No, I didn't hear, no.
9 Q. You don't know how big -- how many troops were there?
10 A. No, no, no, nothing at all. I've no idea at all about this
11 because I didn't really listen to that sort of thing much. I had my
12 duty. I needed to work to make something for people. I'm a handyman and
13 I wanted to earn a few dinars. That was what was important for me.
14 Q. Just a second. Did you know Mujko Zametica?
15 A. Mujko, yes, I did.
16 Q. How did you know him? What did he do?
17 A. I knew him as a miner. He used to work in warehouse. He issued
18 tools for the miners who were going to the pit to work. This is what he
19 did and this is how I remember him.
20 Q. You don't know anything about his political or military
22 A. No, no, I don't know anything.
23 Q. Do you know who were the main SDA people in Foca?
24 A. I don't know, no.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: Just one minute, Your Honours, I just want to check
2 if any questions are left.
3 Q. [Interpretation] As far as I can see, these are all the questions
4 I had for you. Thank you for answering them.
5 A. Welcome.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any need for re-examination by the Prosecution?
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Just on one point that came up in relation to
8 questions about the exhibit now numbered as D103.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
12 Q. Sir, Defence counsel showed you a document on the screen showing
13 that a certain Ibrahim Celik was released from the KP Dom on the 7th of
14 July of 1992. And towards the bottom of the document it says the person
15 named must report daily to the police station of the Serbian municipality
16 of Foca. I want to ask whether you know if it was safe for any Muslims
17 who were released from the KP Dom in the summer of 1992 to live freely in
19 A. No, no. I don't know what happened to this Celik man, how he was
20 released. There were some who were released earlier than envisaged, and
21 then they were captured by other Chetniks in town and killed. So I may
22 have been lucky to have kept longer because later on when the ICRC
23 arrived I was registered and I felt safer, whereas those who were
24 released earlier were captured by other Chetniks as soon as they got out
25 and they were killed. I know such cases.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: That's my only question. Thank you, Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I would have one question for you.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that looking at the list of names of
6 people that would be exchanged or any other name mentioned in your
7 statement of Muslims detained in KP Dom, those you knew - and I think you
8 told us that you knew many of them - do you know of any of those you knew
9 who was involved in arming or combat or armed battle against -- do you
10 know of any of those you are familiar with to have been involved in
11 military activity in -- of whatever kind? I mean military activity
12 before -- well, let's say the last six months before you were arrested
13 and detained?
14 A. No, I don't know anything. I don't know that man. Those were
15 mainly villagers, farmers, workers who had absolutely nothing to do with
16 weapons. They couldn't even afford to buy one if they wanted to. For a
17 year before it all started we got only coupons instead of salaries to be
18 able to buy bread and flour. Out of all those people I don't know anyone
19 who had anything to do with any attacks or any weapons. I don't know any
20 such person.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And they lived in similar circumstances as you were
22 living in, that is, doing your job, trying to earn some money --
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- and look after your family. That's the -- that's
25 how you knew them?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, have the questions in re-examination or
5 questions by the Judges triggered any need for further questions?
6 MR. LUKIC: I would ask one more question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, if triggered by these questions.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Did you, Witness, have any knowledge whatsoever
12 about armed units of Muslims in the territory of Foca?
13 A. I don't know about any units. In all my life that I lived in
14 Foca until the moment I was detained and was kept in the KP Dom in prison
15 for seven or eight months, I knew of no such thing. Whenever a shot
16 would be heard from the rifle I would wonder what it is. I never had any
17 knowledge about any weapons or anyone who had them. I myself never held
18 a rifle or a pistol. I never torched, never raped. (redacted)
20 (redacted) I'm sick and tired of everything. I don't
21 care for life anymore and I will probably end it myself.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this concludes your testimony in this
23 Court. The Chamber understands why thinking back of these times makes
24 you emotional. We'd like to thank you that despite how difficult it may
25 be to look back that you have come to The Hague and that you've answered
1 all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,
2 and I wish you a safe return home again. For you to -- before you leave
3 the courtroom - I'm addressing the parties - I would like to take the
4 break immediately. After the break we'll continue in open session with
5 the next witness.
6 Ms. Marcus.
7 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to request
8 that the testimony of the next witness, Witness Hamill, commence tomorrow
9 morning, as that would give us the remainder of the day to continue the
10 proofing, Your Honours. That would, nonetheless, as I asserted earlier
11 this morning, allow us to continue within the time using tomorrow and
12 Thursday without any need for any extra sessions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And that is confirmed by the Defence? I see you are
14 nodding "yes."
15 Which means that we adjourn for the day and we will resume
16 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 21 --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something, just a few
18 words, please?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, you may say a few words.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I came here to tell the truth and I
21 want to thank you, Presiding Judge and Your Honours and all of you who
22 are doing such an excellent job, and I wish you all the best. First of
23 all, good health. If your health is good, everything else will be all
24 right. And you, too, please write me a paper that I have been here, that
25 I'm able to show it to others, that I have been here, and that I have
1 full trust in you. I want to show it to my people back where I come
3 JUDGE ORIE: For that last part you should have to discuss that
4 with the Victims and Witnesses Section, but we gladly accept your wishes
5 for our good health and for our job to be done properly. And of course
6 the Chamber wishes you - and I think also on behalf of the
7 parties - wishes you also the best possible health for the near future.
8 We adjourn for the day but not until after the witness has left
9 the courtroom and we have to go into closed session for that. Curtains
10 down, please.
11 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Before we adjourn perhaps we could still deal with the exhibits
10 still outstanding from last Friday, though I do not have a list and I
11 don't know whether you're able to address the matters or whether we need
12 one of your colleagues for that.
13 MS. MARCUS: Just a moment, Your Honour, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was Mr. Jeremy who dealt with it.
15 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, if we could do that tomorrow morning
16 first thing, that would be --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we can do that if that does not
18 interfere with your plans to finish on Thursday. There's no problem and
19 it might be a bit overdone to have another session exclusively for that
21 So we will -- yes, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Just briefly, Your Honours. I know that we are over
23 time. We have one filing due Friday --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: -- regarding 70 bis [sic] and it's for four witnesses
1 that should come in December --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Rule 70?
3 MR. LUKIC: 70.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the transcript says "70 bis" but ...
5 MR. LUKIC: Is it possible -- actually, we now ask for at least
6 short extension because we are not sure that we can finish it on
7 Friday --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: -- but since the next week we don't sit in trial,
10 if --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. LUKIC: -- it is possible to have it due the next week.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think as far as the Chamber is concerned, there
14 was not that much of a problem, but since the witness was scheduled to
15 appear relatively quickly we wondered whether we could receive your
16 response as early as possible. But if then a short time -- but --
17 MR. LUKIC: Monday, Tuesday next week?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Monday, Tuesday -- these are matters which we'll
19 have to decide upon before the witness appears. That might become our
20 problem and that's all due to the late filing by the Prosecution. But I
21 don't have the details on my mind yet. I'll just consult my colleagues.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: It's always good to consult with others. One of my
24 colleagues drew my attention to the fact that one of these witnesses is
25 scheduled to testify in the new month of December. If you could already
1 give a response for this one witness. For the others it's less
2 problematic, I would say, because we have still sufficient time. Is that
3 a possibility that you would focus on this one witness first and then if
4 you want to take another whole week for the rest.
5 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And that also accommodates the Prosecution, I take
10 Then we will adjourn for the day. We will resume tomorrow, the
11 21st of November, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, III.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.03 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of
14 November, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.