1 Thursday, 22 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there are no preliminaries, which
12 means that the witness can be escorted into the courtroom. No protective
13 measures. You're ready, Mr. Weber?
14 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. At this time, the Prosecution
15 seeks leave to call Nedzib Djozo.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll use the time while waiting for the
17 witness for the following. During Idriz Merdjanic's testimony on the 1st
18 of October of this year, D59 was MFI'd because the translation states
19 that the document concerned a handwritten note and the original document
20 does not reflect that. On the 12th of October, the parties informed the
21 Chamber that they are discussing D59, and the Chamber would like to
22 remind both parties that it is waiting for the final version of this
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Djozo. Before you give evidence,
1 the Rules require --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules require that you make a solemn
4 declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you. May I invite
5 you to make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Djozo. Please be seated.
9 WITNESS: NEDZIB DJOZO
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djozo, you'll first by examined by Mr. Weber.
12 Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find him to your
14 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
15 Examination by Mr. Weber:
16 Q. Could you please introduce yourself to the Trial Chamber.
17 A. My name is Nedzib Djozo. I was born on the 4th of May, 1958, in
18 Datelji. I live in Sarajevo on Sulejman Filipovic Street number 12.
19 Q. Mr. Djozo, did you provide statements to the Office of the
20 Prosecutor in November 1995 and April 2005?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you testified before this Tribunal on three previous
23 occasions in the cases of Prosecutor versus Dragomir Milosevic,
24 Prosecutor versus Perisic, and most recently, Prosecutor versus Karadzic
25 in December 2010?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Prior to your Karadzic testimony, did you provide a third
3 statement consolidating and clarifying evidence you presented in past
4 statements and testimony?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. WEBER: Could the Court Officer please display page 1 of
7 65 ter 28557 for the witness.
8 Q. Do you recognise the document before you as the amalgamated
9 statement you provided on 7 December 2010, prior to your testimony in the
10 Karadzic case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does your signature appear on the bottom of this page?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have any corrections to the spelling of your place of
15 birth that is before you?
16 A. Yes. As my place of birth, it reads Dartalje, whereas the
17 correct spelling should be Datelji, D-a-t-e-l-j-i.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 14 of the
19 English version of this statement.
20 Q. Mr. Djozo, did you sign this page after the statement was read
21 back to you in the Bosnian language?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you have and opportunity to review this statement in a
24 language you understand prior to your testimony here today?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. If you were asked questions similar to the ones posed to you in
2 the past, would you provide similar answers as reflected in this
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you
6 affirm the truthfulness of this statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28557
9 into evidence as a public exhibit. We also tender at this time two
10 associated exhibits, 65 ter 19725 and 19775 as public exhibits. These
11 are discussed in paragraph 21 of the statement.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28557 becomes Exhibit P544.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P544 is admitted into evidence.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19725 becomes Exhibit P545, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: P545 is admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: And document 19775 becomes Exhibit P546, Your
20 JUDGE ORIE: P546 is admitted. Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
21 MR. WEBER: With the Chamber's leave, the Prosecution at this
22 time seeks permission to present a public summary of Mr. Djozo's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please read it out.
25 MR. WEBER: During the war, Mr. Djozo served as a police officer
1 for the Sarajevo Police Department in the Stari Grad or Old Town police
2 station from July 1992 onward. In his capacity as a police investigator,
3 he investigated shelling and sniping cases.
4 Mr. Djozo conducted a number of on-site investigations concerning
5 the wounding and killing of civilians in Sedrenik, a residential area
6 under the responsibility of his police station. In these investigations,
7 he found that there was fire coming from the Bosnian Serb-held territory,
8 in particular the sniping location of Spicasta Stijena, which is a hill
9 overlooking the Sedrenik neighbourhood.
10 In the months immediately before the shelling of the Markale
11 marketplace on 28 August 1995, Mr. Djozo investigated several incidents
12 of mortar impacts in the immediate vicinity. On the day of 28 August
13 1995, he attended the site of the Markale incident.
14 During the course of his investigations, Mr. Djozo encountered
15 other explosive devices that were used against or fired on Sarajevo. He
16 investigated a modified air bomb that fell in the canyon of the Moscanice
17 river without exploding. He found that the projectile was an air bomb
18 with four rocket motors attached to it. Mr. Djozo also saw gas
19 containers filled with explosives which were rolled down into the city
20 from Bosnian Serb-held territories on the slopes of Mount Trebevic
21 beneath Osmica.
22 May I proceed, Your Honours, with the questioning of the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Mr. Djozo, can you approximate for us how many shells fell upon
1 the Stari Grad area of Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995?
2 A. I cannot give you even an approximate number. I can only say
3 that there were thousands upon thousands of shells that fell on the
4 Stari Grad area.
5 Q. Between 1992 and 1995, were there any weapons placements or any
6 military locations located within the Stari Grad area?
7 A. The only location where there was army present, and that was the
8 Yugoslav People's Army, was in the area of Bistrik where the command of
9 the 7th Military District or army district was stationed.
10 Q. What was the address of the Stari Grad police station?
11 A. The street where the police station was located is called
12 Logavina Street, and it was at number 6.
13 Q. Could you please describe the Stari Grad police station and the
14 buildings that immediately surround it.
15 A. The Stari Grad police station was housed in a building with a
16 basement, ground floor, first floor, and attic. There were residential
17 buildings the police station that were two- or three-storeys high.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Court Officer please display page 15 of
19 65 ter 10264. It is a photograph. There is no translation.
20 Q. Do you recognise the area depicted in this photograph?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What do you recognise this area to be?
23 A. In the foreground we can see private homes that form part of the
24 Sedrenik neighbourhood, and in the background one can see the feature
25 called Spicasta Stijena.
1 Q. Does this photograph accurately depict the Sedrenik area as it
2 appeared during the war?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Court Officer please provide the witness
5 with a pen to mark the photograph.
6 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you state:
7 "Spicasta Stijena is a hill dominant overlooking the Sedrenik
8 neighbourhood. Spicasta Stijena was under the control of the members of
9 the Army of Republika Srpska. Spicasta Stijena was a well-known
10 aggressor-held sniping place."
11 Is this sniping position visible in this photograph?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you please take the pen and mark the location of the
14 sniping position with the letter S.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Could you please draw a box around what you've described as the
17 Sedrenik neighbourhood.
18 A. [Marks]
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the photograph at this time
20 as marked by the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The photograph marked by the witness would receive,
22 Madam Registrar, what number?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Number P547, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P547 is admitted.
25 MR. WEBER:
1 Q. Do you know whether people were cutting trees down near the area
2 of Spicasta Stijena for firewood?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were there any particular months in which they would do this?
5 A. They would mostly cut trees just ahead of the winter, because
6 they needed wood for heating.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 10105 for
8 the witness.
9 Q. Sir, do you recognise this Official Note dated 12 March 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. WEBER: Could we please have page 2 of the B/C/S original.
12 Q. Does your signature appear on this page?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you have the opportunity to review this Official Note during
15 proofing yesterday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. According to this Official Note, a woman described to you how she
18 was shot while going to get firewood on 10 December 1994 in Sedrenik.
19 Based on your review of this Official Note, does it accurately reflect
20 your interview of this woman who was wounded?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WEBER: At this time, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 10105 as
23 a public exhibit. We did check, and it is okay to tender publicly.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10105 becomes Exhibit P548, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: P548 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19775 for
4 the witness. I apologise. I just read out the wrong number. It's
6 Q. Before you is a cover page of one of two notebooks which is
7 entitled "Stari Grad SJB Sarajevo. War Diary." Do you recognise the
8 name of the person on this cover page?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who is this person?
11 A. Chief of the Stari Grad public security station.
12 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review those notebooks during
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you aware of these notebooks while you were employed at the
16 Stari Grad SJB?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you please tell us what the entries in these notebooks
19 relate to?
20 A. Most of the entries in this war diary related to the places that
21 were the source of shelling in the Bosnian Serb-controlled area, place
22 and date, time, those wounded or injured and killed, civilians, in the
23 area covered by the Stari Grad police station.
24 Q. Does it include any information related to incidents where
25 individuals were shot at?
1 A. Of course. The entries also include sniping incidents, incidents
2 where there was gunfire from infantry weapons and the so-called death
4 Q. Could the --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Death sowers.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. I'd like to go through a couple entries with you.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the bottom of page
9 23 of the English translation and the middle of page 71 of the B/C/S
10 copy. For reference the entry the Prosecution will be referring to in
11 the English translation continues on to the next page.
12 Q. Directing your attention to the entry for 27 April 1993, under
13 the location of Bascarsija, which indicates a N. Djozo was wounded by a
14 shell, do you know what this entry relates to?
15 A. I do. This was on Branilaca Sarajeva street. At the time it was
16 called the JNA street, where Naim Djozo, a person by the name of Hasic,
17 and another unidentified person were killed. Naim Djozo is my brother.
18 Q. What was your bothering doing when he was wounded on this day?
19 A. He was an electrician by trade, and he was on his way to work.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 72 of the
21 English translation and page 231 of the B/C/S copy.
22 Q. Directing your attention to the entry for 27/28 May 1992 under
23 the location of Hrid-Jarcedoli. This entry mentions a number of areas
24 including Pogledine, Kamenice, Mahmutovac, and Colina Kapa which were
25 targeted from all available artillery pieces. Are these areas all
1 located in Stari Grad?
2 A. Yes. They are the neighbourhoods of the Stari Grad municipality.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 104 of the
4 English translation and page 337 of the B/C/S original.
5 Q. Turning your attention to the entry for 2 July 1992 under Vratnik
6 that describes about 400 people of Muslim nationality arriving in Vratnik
7 from Pale. Are you familiar with what is described in this entry?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What do you know about it?
10 A. Members of the Army of Republika Srpska informed our superiors
11 that at Vratnik there was a large number of Muslims who had been expelled
12 from Pale. Policemen were supposed to go to meet them there and bring
13 them into town.
14 Q. Do you know any of the individuals who are amongst the people
15 that were expelled from Pale?
16 A. Yes. This group included my relatives who lived in Pale, my
18 Q. Were all the people that were expelled on this occasion
19 originally from the municipality of Pale?
20 A. Before the war, the municipality of Pale was one of the city
21 municipalities and it covered a large territory, roughly 50 to 60
22 kilometres towards Gorazde, Sokolac, Olovo. And all of these persons --
23 and actually, this list does not include all the ethnic Muslims who were
24 expelled from that area.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the
1 English translation and page 7 of the B/C/S original. In the English
2 translation, if we could please scroll to the bottom of the page.
3 Q. Directing your attention to the entry for 13/14 December 1992
4 that states the police commander of the Hrid-Jarcedoli police station
5 killed himself with an M-70 automatic rifle. Do you know what happened
6 before this police station commander killed himself?
7 A. Yes. The commander was our colleague who had lost his entire
8 family a few days before that. A shell that was fired from these Chetnik
9 positions killed his wife and two children.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 21 of the
11 English translation and page 63 of the B/C/S copy.
12 Q. Turning your attention to the entry for 17/18 April 1993, under
13 Sedrenik that indicates a 13-year-old girl was lightly wounded by the
14 "sower of death" which you have previously mentioned now during your
15 testimony. Since this is one of many entries in these notebooks that
16 refer to the sower of death, could you please explain to us what this
17 reference is to?
18 A. Sower of death probably has a different name as well, a technical
19 name, but this is an automatic weapon that has immense firing power.
20 It's a recent thing. I did my military service in the JNA in 1980, and I
21 did not come across this weapon.
22 Basically amongst us we said, and perhaps that is actually the
23 case, that when this weapon is fired, as a bullet leaves the barrel the
24 next bullet is in the middle of the barrel, and the third bullet is also
25 fired and in the barrel at the same time. So that shows how fast bullets
1 are fired from this weapon.
2 Q. Were there multiple locations where civilians in Sarajevo were
3 fired upon by this type of weapon?
4 A. Of course. There is not a single part of the city of Sarajevo
5 that was not fired at from this weapon.
6 Q. Do you know where a sower of death-type weapon was located in
7 relation to the Sedrenik neighbourhood?
8 A. Well, when the aggression was launched against
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Chetniks -- or, rather, the Army of Republika
10 Srpska took all the elevations around Sarajevo and around the old town.
11 So basically on every elevation there was a weapon like this.
12 Q. Previously we looked at a photograph where you marked a letter S
13 in an area that you've identified as a sniping location on a hill in
14 Spicasta Stijena. Do you know where there was a sower of death in
15 relation to this location that you marked?
16 A. I marked only one location from which a sniper operated, where we
17 had located it. However, Spicasta Stijena is an area that covers a large
18 part of the Sedrenik area, and --
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
20 Consultations during the break.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Sir, if you could continue with your answer as you've been
24 provided it, or if you'd like me to repeat the question, I can do that.
25 A. Yes, yes. I shall continue. So Spicasta Stijena is one part.
1 It's an elevation, an area where the lines of the Army of Republika
2 Srpska were. From these trenches, and there were quite a few of them,
3 small arms were opened, death sowers and snipers.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 19776 as
5 a public exhibit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could I take the witness back to
7 one of the pages of this document.
8 MR. WEBER: Of course.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Page 24 in English, 71 in B/C/S.
10 Witness, I am referring to the entry which you said was about
11 your brother being wounded. You'll find it at the -- under the
12 Bascarsija entry. In English what is written below reads: "All wounded
13 at the Dom Ljiljana." Could you tell us is that the place where these
14 persons were wounded, hit by a shell?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dom Ljiljana is in the
16 Branilaca Sarajeva Street. They were all wounded in that street by that
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To the extent you know, were they wounded
19 outside that building?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what is written here, that
21 they were wounded by that building. That is to say that they were
23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that your brother was on his way to
24 work. What was the job of your brother?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An electrician, a repairman. He
1 repairs electricity.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He did not or did he perform his job on that
3 day at the BH Army Social Centre as it is written here?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was employed in a company called
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but was he -- at that moment was he doing his
7 job in or -- in relation to that building, or was he just passing by, or
8 do you know?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was passing by this building.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any objections against the admission of
11 the document just referred to.
12 MR. LUKIC: Well, we wouldn't object to the portions that were
13 used, but to accept the whole document as this one only on the basis of
14 several questions, we do object.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Since the testimony of the witness also identified
17 and authenticated the document as the one he knew, that's at least what I
18 understand from his testimony, and the Chamber understands from his
19 testimony, the objection is denied.
20 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19776 becomes Exhibit P549, Your
23 JUDGE ORIE: P549 is admitted into evidence.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19774.
1 Q. Mr. Djozo, do you recognise this document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you familiar with the events that are described in this
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In paragraph 25 of your statement which has now been admitted,
7 you describe your participation in an on-site investigation into a
8 shelling that occurred approximately a month before the Markale II
9 incident, which happened on Dzenetica Cikma Street. Does this report
10 relate to this same on-site investigation that you described in your
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In the heading of the document the date indicated is 26 May 1995.
14 The first line of the report says it was created on the 26th of June,
15 1995. There are multiple references in the body of this report to the
16 shelling occurring on the 25th of June and the on-site investigation
17 being conducted on the 26th.
18 Could you please clarify the date of the shelling, the date that
19 the shelling occurred.
20 A. The shelling occurred on the 25th of June, 1995, in the afternoon
22 Q. Based on that answer, then, is the date in the heading a
23 typographical error?
24 A. The on-site investigation was carried out on the following day,
25 in the morning, on the 26th of June, 1995. Probably it was impossible to
1 carry it out because children had been killed or seriously wounded, and
2 it could not have been completed properly during the night.
3 Q. Sir, I just --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just going to ask you to focus on the question.
5 There seems to be, Mr. Weber, the date on this document is the 26th of
6 the fifth month. Is that -- is that a mistake?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, that is certainly a mistake.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It almost goes without saying, Mr. Weber,
9 unless there's any reason to assume that someone has intentionally
10 backdated it, so therefore even the Chamber would understand this to be a
11 typographical -- a clerical error. Please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. The Prosecution tenders
13 65 ter 19774 as a public exhibit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19774 becomes Exhibit P550, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: P550 is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 23137 for
19 the witness.
20 Q. Sir, do you recognise the drawing that is before you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you make this drawing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you sign it and date the page that is before you, in the
25 lower right corner?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please explain to us what is depicted in this drawing.
3 A. This is a sketch of the location where children were fired upon
4 and killed in the street of Dzenetica Cikma.
5 Q. Does it relate to the same incident which we just looked at in
6 that report and which you also describe in your statement?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, before proceeding with the next
9 question, I just wanted to -- and I apologise to the Chamber for this.
10 With respect to the last document, P550, there maybe an issue of
11 protective measures related to that. I'd ask that it be changed from
12 public to under seal.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's under seal.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Is the street name that is towards the top of the drawing called
16 Petrarkina Street? Did I say that correctly?
17 A. Petrarkina Street. That's its name, Petrarkina Street.
18 Q. What is the former name of this street?
19 A. It was called Petrarkina, but I don't know what it's called
21 Q. Between Petrarkina and street and Dzenetica Cikma Street, there
22 are three small star shapes. What do these represent?
23 A. It is approximately in these locations that the shells exploded.
24 Q. At the bottom left hand of this drawing there is another small
25 star-shaped symbol above the words "Markale Trznica." What does this
1 star represent?
2 A. The explosion that took place in August 1995 when many citizens
3 of Sarajevo were killed. It's Markale II.
4 Q. What is the approximate distance between the location where the
5 incident occurred on Dzenetica Cikma Street and the location where
6 Markale II incident took place? If you could, if you could approximate
7 in metres.
8 A. Approximately 50 metres or 20, 30, roughly.
9 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 23137 as
10 a public exhibit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 23137 becomes Exhibit P551, Your
14 JUDGE ORIE: P551 is admitted.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11724. If
16 for the time being it could please not be broadcast to the public. I
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. WEBER: It's 65 ter 19724.
20 Q. Do you recognise the official report is before you now?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This official report refers to on-site investigations into seven
23 shellings that occurred on 1 July 1995. Did you participate in any of
24 these investigations?
25 A. This was shelling here in Stari Grad centre, and I took part in
1 some of the on-site investigations that were covered by the public
2 security station of Stari Grad.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both
5 Q. Directing your attention to the paragraph that indicates:
6 "... the on-site investigation team was joined by Djozo Nedzib, SJB,
7 Stari Grad operative worker." Do you see that paragraph?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you participate in the on-site investigations that are
10 described in the paragraphs following the mention of your name in this
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like to ask you about two of the shellings that are described
14 after the mention of your name. Approximately what was the distance
15 between the location where a mortar projectile landed on Branilaca Grada
16 Street on 1415 hours and the location where a mortar landed at
17 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street at 1430? Again, if you can approximate in
19 A. It's the street nearby, so the distance is not more than 50
21 Q. Where are these two locations related in relation to where the
22 mortar hit the Markale marketplace on 28 August 1995?
23 A. In the street of Mula Mustafe Baseskije is the market in front of
24 which this shell fell. The distance from this shell that fell on the 1st
25 of July, 1995, at 1400 hours to the place where it fell on the 28th of
1 August, 1995, it's not more than 100 metres.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, before we continue, I am looking at the
3 clock. You had a time estimate of one hour. Seven minutes are left from
4 that. Do you think that you would finish in those seven minutes? Then
5 we could consider to take the break slightly later.
6 MR. WEBER: I was going to tender this document and ask one last
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. WEBER: So, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution at this time tender 65 ter
12 19724 under seal.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19724 becomes Exhibit P552 under seal,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted as such. That means under seal,
17 under this number.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Mr. Djozo, in paragraph 35 of your statement, you state:
20 "My view regarding these and other shellings, which was shared
21 by others at the police station, is that the fire was adjusted until they
22 reached the very crowded Markale to cause a big number of casualties."
23 When you refer to these and other shellings, what other shellings
24 are you referring to?
25 A. At the beginning of the war, the shelling that ensued across
1 Sarajevo mostly targeted the areas where citizens, children,
2 firefighters, and paramedics would gather. So, for instance, on
3 Vase Miskina Street, it was the line for bread. Next to Pivara or the
4 brewery there was a line for water. Children sledding at
5 Alipasino Polje. The sports match at Dobrinja. They specifically
6 targeted the locations where a larger number of citizens would gather.
7 In the Stari Grad area, it was precisely these spots that were targeted;
8 namely Markale, the open-air marketplace at Mula Mustafe Baseskije
9 Street, the closed-in marketplace at the entrance to which people would
10 mill around on their way in or on their way out shopping for food to live
11 on. All the citizens of Sarajevo, as well as others, know that this was
12 done deliberately.
13 Of course, the media of the Republika Srpska did everything in
14 their power to persuade the international community above all and then --
15 JUDGE ORIE: One second. This goes well beyond your question.
16 Therefore, if you would have addressed that matter that would have been
17 different, but the witness --
18 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question.
20 MR. WEBER: That was my last question. I would just make a note
21 if we are going to break, we haven't received notice of the
22 cross-documents, and it would be of assistance so we could print them out
23 and look them over during the break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What we'll do is the following: First, Mr. Djozo,
25 we'll take a break, and we'd like you to see you back after that break.
1 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We then move into private session for a short
4 moment, and meanwhile we perhaps hear from Mr. Lukic whether the
5 documents to be used in cross-examination are already communicated to the
7 [Private session]
11 Page 5561 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 Mr. Lukic, as matters stand now, what is your time estimate? For
8 the remainder of the day?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Leaving some time for the Prosecution, I take
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djozo, you'll now be cross-examined by
16 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll find him over
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djozo.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Can we start?
22 A. Of course.
23 Q. I will start with some general questions first. From your
24 statement, we know where you worked before June 1991 when you became a
25 policeman. Before you became a policeman, did you complete any training
1 or schooling, or were you simply mobilised?
2 A. I joined the police force voluntarily.
3 Q. And you work as a policeman until mid-1994. I apologise, but I'm
4 waiting for interpretation to finish. Then you move on to take the
5 duties of an investigator in the crime police department. In the
6 meantime, that is to say from the time you joined the police force and
7 the time you took up these duties, did you complete any schooling?
8 A. Yes. We had training and courses in the police station, or more
9 precisely, in the CSB.
10 Q. Up until 1992, you performed a duty which had nothing to do
11 whatsoever with weapons; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As a member of the police force, you became a member of the armed
14 forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You explained to us that you were a gunner in a mortar platoon
17 and a site setter. Can you tell us on how many occasions were you
18 handling a mortar?
19 A. I joined the Yugoslav People's Army in 1980. I had training in
20 Banja Luka, and at that point I was immediately assigned to the post of a
21 site setter or gunner in charge of a mortar. I was given the rank of
22 lance corporal first and then corporal, and I was the commander or the
23 leader of a platoon. Let me just complete my answer. In the training I
24 undertook first, we went through live ammunition target practice, and
25 then since I was there receiving two more generations of recruits, I
1 therefore went through two more live ammunition target practices.
2 Q. And what was the mortar you were trained for?
3 A. 82-millimetre mortar.
4 Q. In your earlier testimony, they asked you if you knew what the
5 range of fire of a 120-millimetre mortar was, and your answer at the time
6 was that you didn't know. Is that still the case? Do you still not know
7 what the range of a 120-millimetre mortar?
8 A. No, I don't know the range of a 120-millimetre mortar, but I do
9 know very well that that it is 4.800 metres in the case of an
10 82-millimetre mortar.
11 Q. In paragraph 8 of your statement, you say that you were wounded
12 close to the police station.
13 A. Yes. I was wounded at the front door practically to the police
15 Q. We will come back to this and other cases when we will be
16 establishing the direction of fire. I would now like to move on to
17 another part of your statement. You don't have the statement before you,
18 do you?
19 A. No.
20 MR. LUKIC: Can the statement be provided to the witness for me
21 by the Prosecution?
22 JUDGE ORIE: If the Prosecution has a spare copy.
23 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour. I'm providing it to the Court
24 Officer. For the record, we provided the B/C/S translation only. Not
25 the signed version.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Paragraphs are there, so that should be no
2 problem. Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 12. It speaks about
5 investigations into sniping and shelling incidents. In fact, it starts
6 before paragraph 9. There you explain what your job was, and I mean in
7 paragraph 12.
8 You were not able to substitute for either a ballistics expert or
9 a forensic officer in terms of their expertise.
10 A. Of course. They were experts in their own field and were the
11 only ones who were competent to address them.
12 Q. You were not authorised to engage into any evaluation of the type
13 of ammunition retrieved at the crime scene; right?
14 A. It was the domain of the ballistics expert who would tell us what
15 sort of shell or bullet was involved.
16 Q. Likewise, you weren't entitled to assess what sort of projectile
17 was involved in the shelling incidents; is that right?
18 A. Estimates could have been given by anyone, but the only document
19 that carried validity was the one produced by the ballistics officer.
20 Q. Moreover, you were not entitled to nor was this part of your
21 duties to determine the direction of fire in the case of a shell or a
22 bullet; right?
23 A. It was always done by the ballistics officer who was a member of
24 the on-site investigation team.
25 Q. Paragraph 14. You also explain what you were doing there, and
1 you say that one of the important documents that you produced was the
2 Official Note. Who had the right from among those who were in your
3 police station to draft these official notes?
4 A. If a duty operative officer or an inspector was present in the
5 police station, he was duty-bound to produce a record of the on-site
6 investigation, and an Official Note was a document which could be part of
7 that report. The Official Note was produced by authorised officials, and
8 they would send the note to the operative officer in charge of the
9 on-site investigation, and then the overall documentation would have been
10 forwarded to the competent investigating judge.
11 Q. Let's look at paragraph 16 now. In that part of your statement,
12 you deal with the sniping area of Spicasta Stijena, an issue that we
13 heard discussed today.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P3 in e-court for a brief
15 moment, specifically page 30. It's page 26 in the binder. Can we have
16 just the one image. Thank you.
17 Q. In this photograph, do you recognise Sedrenik and Spicasta
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. On the left-hand side you see this elevated area with antennae.
21 Can you recognise what it is?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is Grdonj, isn't it?
24 A. Yes. It's an elevation.
25 Q. Grdonj, this elevation was held by who?
1 A. If you mean the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were behind this
2 part that is displayed now where the radio tower is.
3 Q. Who was on the elevation itself?
4 A. As far as I know, there was no one on the elevation itself.
5 Q. From this elevation, was it possible to control the area of
6 Spicasta Stijena?
7 A. No. It was not possible, because you can see the terrain for
8 yourself. It was rocky. It wasn't forested. And as far as I know,
9 there was no one there.
10 Q. Near Sedrenik, Spicasta Stijena, and Grdonj, was there also
11 Kobilja Glava?
12 A. Kobilja Glava is part of a neighbourhood near Vogosca which is a
13 few kilometres away from here.
14 Q. Thank you. On the other side -- or, actually, in relation to
15 Spicasta Stijena, where is the area called Sedam Suma?
16 A. Sedam Suma was the forested part of Sedrenik, which is no longer
17 there. The trees have been cut down. It's on the right-hand side of
18 this photograph.
19 Q. Is it also correct that from Grdonj one could see all of
21 A. Not only Sedrenik but also part of Pionirska Dolina, Kosevo, the
22 town itself.
23 Q. Do you know that the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska
24 and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the area of Grdonj and
25 Spicasta Stijena were 20 metres apart?
1 A. No, I don't know that, because as a policeman, I never came to
2 these positions.
3 Q. All right. Do you know that in the area of Sedrenik there were
4 parts of the 105th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. I heard of these names, but which territory, which part of the
6 territory was held by them, I really don't know.
7 Q. Have you heard that in addition to the fact that the
8 infrastructure and the staff of that brigade were there, there was also
9 the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the 150th Brigade?
10 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
11 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 18, please. You speak of the composition
12 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was stationed in Sedrenik, and you
13 say that basically these were citizens or residents of Sedrenik.
14 A. I did not say that the BH Army was stationed at Sedrenik.
15 Rather, I said that on the right and left side of Spicasta Stijena there
16 were one or two trenches that were facing Mrkovici, or, rather,
17 Spicasta Stijena up there, the Army of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. And what about the members of the Army of Republika Srpska who
19 were on the other side? Where were they from, do you know?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is it correct that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps consisted of
22 people from the areas of Sarajevo and Romanija?
23 A. I don't know about that.
24 Q. You don't know at all where these soldiers of the
25 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps came from?
1 A. No. I never saw a single document that would prove any of that.
2 Q. I'm asking you this because in your reports, and today as well,
3 well, you call them Chetniks today, and that's also contained in your
4 reports. And you also called them aggressors. What was your basis for
5 denoting the units of the Army of Republika Srpska in this way?
6 A. The statements of these persons themselves on television were
7 such, and to this day you hear statements like that on television, people
8 who introduce themselves as Chetniks. They themselves say that they are
10 Q. What I wanted to ask you was whether you called all the members
11 of the Army of Republika Srpska Chetniks, and did you call their fire
12 Chetnik fire or aggressor fire, or were these positions of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska?
14 A. It's not only Chetnik fire. At that time they had the support of
15 the JNA.
16 Q. Which period are we talking about, please?
17 JUDGE ORIE: To the intent you wanted to draw the attention of
18 the Chamber to the language used by this witness where he says Chetniks,
19 by the way, he corrected himself before the break once in saying giving
20 the different name, you have succeeded in doing that. To the extent it's
21 necessary to further elaborate we'll see, but that point is clear to the
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Q. [Interpretation] We shall move on then to paragraph 19. In that
25 paragraph, you say that your estimate was that about 100 civilians were
1 killed by fire coming from Spicasta Stijena. Then in paragraph 20 you
2 say many civilians from Sedrenik were wounded and killed. Their number's
3 around 50 and 100, but this is not exact data.
4 In the Perisic trial --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D445 in e-court
6 now. It's the transcript from that trial. 4556 is the page that we
7 need, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Can we have e-court page, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: It should be page 12. Forty-two, actually. Sorry.
10 That's the right page, and we need lines 17 through 21, please.
11 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague put a question to you here. I'll
12 read it in English so that you can get the right interpretation.
13 [In English] "Q. I asked you very specifically whether you are
14 aware of any other incidents besides the two that you participated in.
15 Are you aware of any other concrete incident, victim or a colleague of
16 yours who participated in an investigation of a very concrete incident?"
17 And your answer was:
18 "A. I can't remember any."
19 [Interpretation] This is what I'm going to ask you today, and
20 we'll deal with these two incidents as well. Is it correct that you have
21 knowledge, specific knowledge, about two incidents only, two incidents of
22 wounding in Sedrenik, one is Selmanovic, Dervisa, and the second one is
23 Ibrahim Podrug; is that correct?
24 A. In the police station of Stari Grad at that time, there were
25 about 20 persons who worked as inspectors and who carried out on-site
1 investigations. I'm only one of them. So I don't know how many on-site
2 investigations they carried out. I'm saying that I attended those two.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid confusion at a later, Mr. Lukic,
5 4556 transcript page, it's page 43 [realtime transcript read in error
6 "42"] in e-court.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At least in my e-court.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now where you earlier wanted to take us to
11 page 42, it's now in our transcript it's by mistake recorded as if I said
12 42. I said page 43.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] As you went to the site in Sedrenik, were major
17 offensives of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina underway against the
18 positions of the Army Republika Srpska in Barici and Mrkovici from
19 mid-May until mid-July 1995? Do you remember that?
20 A. No. I cannot remember whether there were attacks against
21 Spicasta Stijena or, rather, the Mrkovici neighbourhood.
22 Q. All right. We saw P546 today and we would like to have it called
23 up in e-court again, please. This is a statement made by
24 Mirsad Kuburovic, and you took that statement, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you see from this statement how Ibrahim Podrug was wounded,
2 where the fire came from that wounded him?
3 A. This statement was taken from a man who worked as a driver for
4 the emergency medical service who transferred this man who had been
5 lethally wounded. In this Official Note, no reference was made to where
6 the fire had come from.
7 Q. Were there Serb positions at some points from which they could
8 observe Sedrenik but being below Sedrenik at the same time?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In the second paragraph underneath the lettering that says
11 "Statement," this is what was stated, this is what you say: It was
12 stated then that Ibrahim Podrug was wounded by a firearm, that it's an
13 exit-entry wound. The entry wound was at the rear of the thigh muscle
14 while the exit wound was in the area of the groin.
15 As lay persons I can say that it seems to me that Mr. Ibrahim
16 Podrug was standing at a location that was higher than the location where
17 the shooter was, but this is something that forensic experts should be
18 dealing with. The only thing I want to ask you is the following: You
19 correctly registered the information that was provided to you by
20 Mr. Kuburovic; is that right?
21 A. This is Mirsad Kuburovic's statement.
22 Q. Thank you. You say that fire was opened against you while you
23 were carrying out your on-site investigation at Sedrenik. You were never
24 wounded at Sedrenik; right?
25 A. No.
1 Q. How far away is Spicasta Stijena from Sedrenik?
2 A. Well, roughly 500 to 700 metres to the last part of those houses
3 that are called the Sedrenik neighbourhood.
4 Q. Thank you. Let us now move on to Dervisa Selmanovic's wounding,
5 and we need P548 for that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that, Mr. Lukic, you I think
7 rightly left a matter to the forensic experts. You said as lay persons I
8 can say that it seems to me that Mr. Ibrahim Podrug was standing at a
9 location that was higher than the location where the shooter was. Now,
10 we leave it in the hands, but what I have -- I'm trying to understand
11 your observation which is not a question. What makes you believe that he
12 was standing when he was shot?
13 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. That's why I left it for the forensic
14 experts. We don't know whether he was standing or --
15 JUDGE ORIE: But you say standing higher or lower already assumes
16 a position of standing.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: He can be lying or be seated. I just wondered
19 whether I missed something where you said whether standing was lower or
20 higher where I thought whether he was seated, lying down, et cetera. I
21 have no clue yet. So apart from higher or lower, even whether he was
22 standing. I have no clue in the --
23 MR. LUKIC: I couldn't find that clue either in this document --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then I didn't miss anything. Just for
25 me to fully under your -- what you would like to leave to the forensics.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: But is your position, Mr. Lukic, that he was
4 standing or do you -- are you open to any other posture that he might
5 have taken until you hear evidence by the observer?
6 MR. LUKIC: I'm open for anything, Your Honour, but if he -- that
7 gentleman were standing --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but the problem is the experts will not tell
9 us whether he was standing or not. It's an eyewitness only who can tell
10 us whether he was standing, or the position he was in when he was shot.
11 MR. LUKIC: We cannot find it from the documentation,
12 Your Honour. I tried to find it but I couldn't.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Now we're looking at the document which speaks
17 about the wounding of Ms. Dervisa Selmanovic. As you were conducting
18 this on-site investigation, you did not find any of the injured at the
19 scene, did you?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. It was the neighbours who described the incident for you; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You didn't take any statements from them, did you?
24 A. This was referred to in the record of the on-site investigation.
25 Q. What was stated, that you took statements from them or that you
2 A. The record of the on-site investigation stated that the
3 neighbours were interviewed and they informed the on-site investigation
4 team about what had happened.
5 Q. You did not attend the scene itself, did you?
6 A. We reached the house. We didn't attend the spot where Dervisa
7 was wounded because we were afraid that we would come under sniper fire.
8 Q. From that spot you photographed the seen which others told you
9 was the place where Dervisa Selmanovic was wounded; right?
10 A. The crime scene examiners photographed the crime scene itself,
11 which had bloodstains for everyone to see.
12 Q. You didn't show these photographs to Ms. Selmanovic when you
13 interviewed her; right?
14 A. No, we didn't show them to her, because the photographic
15 documentation was already with the investigating judge.
16 Q. Based on the story told to you by the neighbours, you produced
17 the report arising from the on-site investigation; right?
18 A. They were not stories. They were testimonies given by
20 Q. I'd like to move on to the part which speaks about the shelling
21 of the area close to the Markale marketplace but before the incidents
22 Markale II happened.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the document looked at in that
24 context was P550. [In English] This document shouldn't be broadcasted, I
25 think. The Prosecution asked for it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, based on your previous query, the
3 Prosecution did check. It is okay for this document and also P552 to be
4 public exhibits and broadcasted.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore then the -- the status of this
6 document P550 is public, and P552 as well.
7 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, both documents are public documents
9 from now on.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Here you speak about something that happened approximately two
12 months before the incident called Markale II. When the incident
13 described in this document took place, you were not on duty; is that
15 A. I was on duty, but I was not the individual assigned to the
16 on-site investigation duty that day.
17 Q. It was a colleague of yours; right?
18 A. Yes. The colleague under number 2 was the duty investigator in
19 the Stari Grad station that day. Since the information received was that
20 there were persons killed and children wounded, he asked me to come along
21 and help.
22 Q. Does the documentation state anywhere what the house number was
23 in front of which the shells landed?
24 A. The street involved is Dzenetica Cikma Street, and the house
25 numbers 8 through 12.
1 Q. You cannot tell at this time what the precise locations were from
2 which this area was fired upon; right?
3 A. At the time, it was said that the shells were fired from the
4 north, from the area of village of Mrkonjici.
5 Q. In your statement you say that two or three children were harmed
6 or fell victim, and then you say later on that you don't know who fell
7 victim, and then as a third possibility, you say that there may not have
8 been any persons harmed or killed after all.
9 A. The on-site investigation team attended the scene on the 26th of
10 June, whereas the incident happened on the 25th of June. In other words,
11 I didn't see the children killed or wounded. We received that
12 information later.
13 Q. You say that it was said at the time that the shell had come from
14 the north, specifically from the area beyond Spicasta Stijena; is that
16 A. Yes. The village or neighbourhood of Mrkonjic lies behind or
17 beyond Spicasta Stijena.
18 Q. Between Mrkovici and the place where the shells landed, the
19 forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were deployed; is that right?
20 A. From Dzenetica Cikma Street all the way to Spicasta Stijena,
21 there lie the neighbourhoods of Bjelave, Podhrastovo, Sedrenik. I don't
22 know if in that inhabited area there were forces of the Army of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina deployed or not.
24 Q. Today we discussed the fact that there were forces deployed in
25 Sedrenik itself. We were able to see that it was a forested area. Is
1 the only place between Spicasta Stijena and the place where the shells
2 landed Sedrenik itself?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat his answer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your answer, Witness.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. The interpreters didn't hear your answer.
7 A. I don't know that there were units of the Army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the neighbourhood of Sedrenik. The neighbourhood
9 was such that it comprised stand-alone family homes rather than
10 residential buildings.
11 Q. Very well. Let's move on to the incident where you said three
12 shells landed?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I would have one question which I think
14 is close to what you asked the witness. You said that the shell came
15 from the north, and -- let me find it. Specifically from the area beyond
16 Spicasta Stijena, and you said yes. On what basis did you establish the
17 distance, it being beyond Spicasta Stijena?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The record of the on-site
19 investigation does not say that it was ascertained to have been there.
20 It stated that it was approximately the area of Mrkonjici and the area
21 lies beyond Spicasta Stijena.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That still implies an assessment of distance that is
23 beyond Spicasta Stijena and not closer to where the shell fell. Whether
24 it's an area or whether it's a place, it certainly is at a distance not
25 less than the distance to Spicasta Stijena. On what basis was it
1 established that it was that area beyond that sharp rock feature?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was stated by ballistics experts
3 who were from the CSB. This was taken from their statement.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you do not know on what basis they stated
5 that, whether it was an assumption or whether it was on the basis of any
6 specific finding?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know on what basis they
8 stated it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Should we make a break now since I'm on the other
11 topic and this?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable moment for a
13 break, we take the break now, and after the witness has left the
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. May we proceed, sir. I would just briefly like to go back to
24 this description of yours, this description that you provided for death
25 sowers. Did you ever see that weapon? Have you ever seen it?
1 A. Only in photographs.
2 Q. Is that something special that only the Serb forces had, or is
3 that a machine-gun?
4 A. Well, it's a machine-gun. At first it was only the army of -- I
5 mean the JNA, rather, probably requisitioned the weapon.
6 Q. Was this weapon manufactured in the former Yugoslavia or is it an
7 imported weapon?
8 A. I think that it was manufactured in Yugoslavia.
9 Q. Would you agree with me then that the members of the Army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina also had that weapon?
11 A. Maybe afterwards in the war if they happened to seize one.
12 Q. In your police station, as far as weaponry is concerned, you had
13 762 automatic rifles; right?
14 A. At the beginning of the war, yes.
15 Q. You also had sniper weapons, didn't you?
16 A. I don't remember that we had sniper weapons, but we did have
17 semi-automatic rifles.
18 Q. Did you have M-74 light machine-guns?
19 A. I don't remember, but maybe it was the old machine-gun, M-53.
20 Maybe we had one or something like that.
21 Q. Did you have NATO rifles?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about the Special Police forces? Did they have NATO rifles?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Did you find out and what kind of weapon wounded these two
1 persons who were wounded at Sedrenik?
2 A. No. Although we looked for it, we were trying to find the
3 ammunition, but we didn't manage to find the weapon or the person who
4 fired the weapon.
5 Q. Did you find out that Mrs. Selmanovic, Dervisa Selmanovic, worked
6 in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. I took a statement from her. She may have been involved as a
8 cook or something like that, but I don't remember her being involved in
9 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 Q. Now we are going to discuss the three shells. What was it that
11 you told us? What was established? From which direction did they come?
12 A. The three shells in Dzenetica Cikma or some other shells?
13 Q. The three shells that you said were fired and you said that they
14 were looking for a target.
15 A. Our view is that the shells that fell in Dzenetica Cikma were
16 actually intended for Markale, and I was also doing an on-site
17 investigation when shells were falling from --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
19 repeat all the names of the streets slowly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the all the names of the
21 streets and do it slowly so that the interpreters are able to translate.
22 Please proceed.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So in the first case it is
24 Dzenetica Cikma. We believed then and we are of the opinion now that
25 this was actually being fired at Markale, because that is where most of
1 the citizens were. On the other hand, I also carried out an on-site
2 investigation, so I was present when in the street Skenderija an on-site
3 investigation was carried out. Hamdija Kresovljakovica is it's name now.
4 And then Branilaca Sarajeva near the municipality of Stari Grad, then the
5 street of Ferhadija near the school of economics of the University of
6 Sarajevo and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please calm down because you're creating
8 the same problem as you did before.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So you have mentioned now the -- clearly the first
11 street. You then talked about the street Skenderija, and could you
12 repeat what its name is now.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hamdija Kresovljakovica.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The last street you referred to started with
15 Ferhadija. Is that -- could you repeat that as well?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other street is
17 Branilaca Sarajeva.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Were those all the streets you mentioned or are we
19 still missing one?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ferhadija is missing, and the
21 street called Mula Mustafe Baseskije.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] These explosions occurred two months before the
25 incident of Markale II; is that correct?
1 A. I don't have the official record before me. I have the one of
2 the 26th of June, 1995, but I think -- I think that it's before
3 Markale II.
4 Q. That that was a preparation for Markale. That's your assumption,
5 isn't it? It could not have been established through ballistic evidence.
6 There was no evidence that the same weapons were fired. These are just
7 assumptions; right?
8 A. What we assumed happened in August 1995 as well.
9 Q. I shall repeat.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic is asking you the following: If you have
11 not established whether the weapons used in these previous incidents of
12 shelling, then it is just an assumption to say that it was preparation
13 for Markale II, because you would -- because for Markale II, these
14 incidents to be a preparation for Markale II would require that the
15 shells were fired by the same weapons, and if you have been unable to
16 establish that, Mr. Lukic puts to you that, therefore, that must just be
17 an assumption, nothing more, nothing less. Do you agree with that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. During the war, did you ever see artillery firing from the city
22 of Sarajevo, that is to say using guns, tanks, or mortars? Artillery of
23 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is.
24 A. No, I did not see any of that.
25 Q. Do you know and did you know then where artillery pieces of the
1 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned in the town of Sarajevo?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Do you know where artillery pieces of the Army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina were positioned around the city of Sarajevo?
5 A. Again, I don't know.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If I could ask. Did you know about the presence of
7 artillery pieces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo? So
8 irrespective of where they were, did you know that there were artillery
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not know. I'm not even
11 sure whether the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina possessed any such heavy
12 weaponry in Sarajevo.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. So in all your reports, you never took into account the
16 possibility of fire being opened by weapons that were in the possession
17 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
18 A. No. No, we never took into account such a possibility.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you know that UNPROFOR reported about incidents
20 when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina fired at its own population?
21 A. I never heard that officially. Perhaps in chitchat.
22 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 29, you are talking about the first
23 shell that exploded in the street called Skenderija, and you say that a
24 young man who studied political science was killed and that it was close
25 to a secondary school.
1 At that time, in the summer of 1995, were there any students in
2 that school, and were classes going on in that school, or was it members
3 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were stationed in that school? Do
4 you know?
5 A. At that time and today and before the war this was the Faculty of
6 Political Science, and that is where students were. May I finish? The
7 young man who got killed is from Sedrenik. Later on I met his father.
8 He was 20-something years old, and he had come to enroll in university.
9 Q. That's what I asked you, but probably I misspoke. Because these
10 were the summer months. Certainly there were no classes going on; right?
11 A. Well, it's possible that there were some lectures.
12 Q. What's the month that we're discussing now?
13 A. August. But these were not normal times. It wasn't the kind of
14 school that came to exist after the war.
15 Q. You say that it's possible that there was a school there and
16 that -- but you don't know for sure that there were classes going on.
17 A. What is certain is that that was the Faculty of Political Science
18 and that it was students who were there and not soldiers.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you a question. Do you have exact
20 knowledge on classes ongoing in that school in the short time period
21 around the day when the shell -- shelling took place?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period of time, that is to
23 say I'm talking about that year, those months, this was the Faculty of
24 Political Science where students went to classes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me interrupt you there then again. Is that
1 because you assume that when there's a Faculty of Political Science that
2 students will be there, or do you know that classes were held and that
3 students were there in that short weeks around this moment of shelling?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement that was given to
5 me by the father of this young man who got killed, he said to me that his
6 son had come there to enroll in university.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still not an answer to my question,
8 because the question was whether you know personally whether classes were
9 held. Do you know? Then please tell us. If you don't know, tell us as
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not know whether classes
12 were being held.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the other question put to you by
14 Mr. Lukic was: Do you have any knowledge of soldiers being stationed in
15 that Faculty of Political Science building around that period of time?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have any knowledge.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. In paragraph 31, you say that the second shell hit the then JNA
20 street as it was known then, and today it is known as the street of
21 Branilaca Grada Sarajeva in front of the building of the Stari Grad
22 municipality. Do you know what kind of military installations or units
23 were in that building?
24 A. That's the building of the Stari Grad municipality where clerks
25 of that municipality work.
1 Q. Were there armed policemen standing in front of that building?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Also, is it correct that the centre for reconnaissance and
4 reporting was in that building?
5 A. I'm not aware of that. Only if from the -- before the war that
6 was still there, that is to say that the municipality is the place from
7 which reporting comes on fires and things like that.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. You say the third shell landed on
9 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street, which was called Marsala Tita Street at
10 the time. Can you tell us the exact date when the three shells you
11 describe landed there?
12 A. The record of the on-site investigation contains the exact date.
13 There were too many dates for me to remember them all. I can't tell you
15 Q. Although this is not in the indictment, let us tie in the
16 incident of February 1994, that is to say Markale I, and Markale II of
17 August 1995. As you sit here today, would you say that both these shells
18 were fired from Serbian positions?
19 A. Let me say this: The report produced by experts is the only true
20 finding in that matter.
21 Q. We've already heard you say that you never checked if the shells
22 had come from the positions of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I will
23 nevertheless ask you this: Did you double-check the statements that one
24 of these shells was actually thrown by hand out of one of the buildings
25 facing Markale?
1 A. Judging by the reports which state that this was a 120-millimetre
2 shell which exploded at Markale, it is hard to conceive of the
3 possibility that somebody would be throwing such a shell out of an
4 enclosed space and that such a shell would then explode in this way.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we started by tying Markale I with
6 Markale II. Then you asked a question about both the incidents, and
7 slowly we move to one or still both of the incidents? That's unclear to
9 MR. LUKIC: The gentleman can't connect any rumour like this to
10 any of these explosions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But the witness said judging by the report which
12 stated this was a 120-millimetre, then he apparently has one incident on
13 his mind.
14 Did you refer to Markale I in your answer where you said that the
15 report stated that it was a 120-millimetre shell?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All these stories that the shell
17 was a 120-millimetre shell had to do --
18 JUDGE ORIE: My question was did you refer to Markale I or to any
19 other incident?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Markale I.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems to be your question is broader than
22 the witness understands it.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Let me ask you this then: Did you investigate the matter in
2 relation to the incident known as Markale II?
3 A. No. We didn't have the power to investigate into this incident.
4 Q. You said that you served your military service handling mortars.
5 Can we agree that the mortar shell does not contain bomblets or pellets?
6 A. I don't know about that. When I served the army in the 1980s, I
7 did not come across any shells that would contain within them pellets.
8 Q. Do you know or did you come across information to the effect that
9 there were individuals who were wounded during the Markale II incident as
10 a result of being hit by -- by pellets, that they had thus shaped
12 A. I only took the statement of one of the persons wounded in
13 Markale II, and the statement had to do with shrapnel rather than
15 Q. You were also asked about whether you participated in the
16 investigations taking place at the scene of Markale II and you said no,
17 so you cannot really tell us what direction was from which the shell that
18 exploded at Markale II had come from; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Likewise, you cannot tell you [as interpreted] what type of
21 projectile exploded at the location; right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Did you know at the time or do you know today that on the 28th of
24 August, 1995, UNPROFOR representatives did not detect any sort of
25 artillery activity from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?
1 A. I don't know about that.
2 Q. Did you receive information to the effect that UNPROFOR detected
3 the fire that had come from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska
4 on the 28th of August, 1995?
5 A. I don't know about that either.
6 Q. To the extent that you can tell us about the incident of
7 Markale II, you said that there was a ban in force against civilians
8 moving about the town. Is it true that in your subsequent testimonies
9 you said that you didn't know who issued the ban, only to say at a later
10 stage that you weren't really sure whether the ban was in force at all?
11 A. I didn't say that there was a ban on movement in Sarajevo. I
12 said that there was -- well, not an order. It was stated that there was
13 to be no assembling or lingering in the locations where food provisions
14 could be obtained and that people should spend there as little time as
16 Q. You yourself said that the streets and the whole area of Markale
17 was suitable for movement because it was protected. This is my question:
18 Is it true that there could be no clear line of sight of that area from
19 any of the VRS positions?
20 A. That area cannot be seen from any vantage point within the town
21 itself either. One could only see the eastward direction. The positions
22 at Borje could have a view because it coincided with the direction
24 Q. Is Borje within the town of Sarajevo?
25 A. It is yet another elevation on the edge of Sarajevo to the east
1 in the direction of Pale.
2 Q. Is it true that in the surroundings of Markale there were the
3 reserve police units stationed?
4 A. The Stari Grad public security station, as was the case before
5 and after the war, had policemen deployed into the individual local
6 communes. This did not apply to reserve police forces only but also to
7 the active force.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will just view a short video-clip
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you want the Chamber to seriously
11 consider the matters you are raising, then it would certainly help us to
12 know where the Stari Grad public security station was exactly, in what
13 street, what location, so we are able to establish what the distance was
14 to where the shells fell, but if you just are talking about streets -- or
15 is it on the video? I hope too.
16 MR. LUKIC: With the help of the witness, we can maybe learn
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps. Let's first watch the video. Is
19 there any sound on the video, Mr. Lukic? I mean sounds -- any words
20 spoken, I should say.
21 MR. LUKIC: We are not going to rely on sound or anything said,
22 just the video.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we only play it only once.
24 MR. LUKIC: Can we play the video, please.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Djozo, do you know that in this passage that we saw the armed
3 person coming out of twice was the headquarters of the quartermaster
4 service of the 1st Corps in the immediate vicinity of Markale?
5 A. No. I am not aware of that. What I do know is that there was a
6 bakery there. There was also a general store located there which wasn't
7 open at the time. And even if it was, there were very few goods to be
8 obtained there.
9 Q. What was the distance between the Stari Grad police station and
11 A. Five hundred metres, perhaps more.
12 Q. And the staff of the Territorial Defence of the Stari Grad
14 A. If there was a staff, then it could only have been housed in the
16 Q. You don't know where it was located?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. You don't know that there was the quartermaster's storage of the
19 1st Corps headquartered in this passage that we saw the man in the
20 footage come out of?
21 A. Well, as far as I know, I wasn't aware of the fact that they even
22 had had a quartermaster's storage place. All I know is that all those
23 wounded and killed were transported to the state hospital and the
24 Kosevo Hospital.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you should have stated that you
1 stopped at video at 17 seconds.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for your help, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it was the footage from 3:28 to -- at least
4 that was indicated, 3:28 to 3:41.
5 MR. LUKIC: We can finish the video again. We can play it again.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could we ask the witness -- apparently,
7 Mr. Lukic, you are focusing on the person at the extreme left of the
8 video where there seems to be kind of a yellow -- yellow stripe, a
9 person --
10 MR. LUKIC: Behind that yellow stripe.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Behind that yellow stripe a person coming out and
12 going back soon after that. Is that -- not really appearing in full. Is
13 that what you're focusing on?
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the witness also to know that that is
16 specifically what has the attention of Mr. Lukic.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] I would have a more general question now for
20 you. Is it true that you never saw a single report by ballistics
21 officers from the centre? Is that right?
22 A. That's right. According to the rules of service, the ballistics
23 reports produced in the CSB are sent to the investigating judge in
25 Q. And let us be specific as well. You did not see such reports in
1 respect of Ms. Dervisa Selmanovic or in respect of Ibro Podrug. Am I
3 A. All the various sections produced their respective reports and
4 sent them to the investigating judge in charge. By the same token, I was
5 not able to see these reports ever.
6 Q. Also, you never received or reviewed a single report compiled by
7 doctors that had to do with injuries sustained from shells, bullets, and
8 grenades during the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?
9 A. All medical findings, if any policeman went to the hospital and
10 took such findings, in this specific case I'm speaking about Selmanovic,
11 if this kind of report was received, again it was sent to the
12 investigating judge.
13 Q. Again I will have to conclude that you never saw any such report.
14 A. I did see a report on the wounding of Mrs. Selmanovic, whatever
15 her first name was.
16 Q. Dervisa.
17 A. That was submitted to the CSB and the investigative judge. Those
18 were the appropriate institutions.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D445. This is
20 the transcript from the Perisic trial of the 18th of March. 4549 is the
21 page we need. It's page 36 in e-court. We need lines 11 through 14. We
22 have them on our screen.
23 [Interpretation] We have the wrong page. We'll have to come back
24 to that. That will be probably my last question. I have the wrong
25 number in my notes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the page of the transcript?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, but obviously I jotted down the wrong number of
3 the page.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You don't have an e-court number?
5 MR. LUKIC: We do have it in e-court. I just have to find it.
6 Can we see the next page, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's about medical findings.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes. There it is.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking at e-court page 37, which is
10 transcript page in that case 4550.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I'm going to read it out in English so that you can get the
15 proper interpretation of that. This is what they asked you, line 11:
16 [In English] "Q. Did you ask the doctor to provide you with a
17 report about the nature of her wounds?
18 "A. No. At the time, nobody did that. We did not ask for
19 medical findings."
20 [Interpretation] Is it correct, therefore, that you did not ask
21 for medical reports from doctors at the time, that no one did that, and
22 that you did not request medical reports?
23 A. In some cases when there was major shelling and therefore people
24 were wounded and killed, at that moment it was impossible to get such
25 findings. These findings were issued to injured persons, and then police
1 officials would interview these persons and take the findings involved
2 and submit them to the persons in charge.
3 Q. I shall have to -- I shall have to take you back briefly to this.
4 Obviously, this is a reference to Mrs. Selmanovic, because it says
5 "report on her wounds, the nature of her words." So it is in the
6 singular, and the gender is feminine.
7 So what is the correct out of the two, that you requested a
8 report and received it or that you did not request it and did not receive
10 A. The doctor who admitted Mrs. Selmanovic gave her these findings,
11 so it was only several months later that we managed to find the lady, and
12 it was only then that we got these findings as well.
13 Q. Now there's a new line of questioning that opens up. Could you
14 conclude whether -- or, rather, could you conclude on the basis of that
15 what kind of weapon wounded Mrs. Selmanovic?
16 A. I don't have her statement here, but when we found her in her
17 apartment, the lady said that she had been wounded by a firearm that
18 fired from Spicasta Stijena.
19 Q. Asim Zulic, does the name ring a bell?
20 A. I don't know who Asim Zulic is. The last name is well known.
21 Q. Kemal Djozo, do you know who that is, a military man? Is he a
22 relative of yours?
23 A. A relative who worked in Macedonia.
24 Q. During the course of the war, was Mr. Kemal Djozo involved in the
25 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. I met Kemal while he was still at the military academy in Zadar,
2 and I saw him sometime in 2009 in Ohrid. In a conversation with him, I
3 heard him say that he spent the entire war in Macedonia and that together
4 with Mladic he was in the barracks there, that he stayed on in the
5 barracks and continued his education and that he's a professor somewhere
6 at the military academy.
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Let us now move on to those improvised
8 bombs made of bottles. You were asked about that, and you said that you
9 personally did not carry out an investigation about that because you were
10 not qualified to do that; is that correct?
11 A. Just tell me what kind of bombs we are talking about.
12 Q. Improvised ones made of bottles.
13 A. Made of bottles. As for these bottles, I heard about them during
14 the war, but towards the end of the war, I actually did see them
15 underneath Osmica, above the neighbourhood of Sirokaca.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D444 on our screens now,
17 please. I have page 72. We need page 9624, lines 5 through 11. In
18 answer to the question which says.
19 "Q. You saw an unexploded gas cylinder with wheels and another
20 unexploited oil barrel that had wheels attached to it. Did this perhaps
21 not call for a detailed investigation and a photo documentation, and was
22 such an investigation ever carried out?"
23 You said in line 9:
24 "A. No, I never did such an investigation, because I'm not
25 qualified for that."
1 Is it therefore true that you did not investigate what this was
3 A. I did not investigate that, but my superiors were informed about
4 this. An Official Note was compiled. Probably some of the ballistics
5 people were made aware of this, and probably it was a ballistics person
6 that carried out the investigation.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need page 79 of this same
8 document in e-court, otherwise, it is page 9631 from the Karadzic trial.
9 The date is the 10th of December, 2010, and the lines are from 22 to 24.
10 Q. When speaking about that you said:
11 [In English] "The photographs were made by the person who signed
12 the photographs, and he probably stated that there were explosives
13 inside. He's the only one who can say that this was so."
14 [Interpretation] My question now: Is it correct that you
15 personally cannot confirm that these barrels or whatever were filled with
17 A. I cannot.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: I can see it's break time, Your Honour, and I will
20 have only a few questions after the break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break first and be -- after the
22 witness has been escorted out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
3 Meanwhile, I use the time for the following: The Chamber has considered
4 the objections raised against the admission of Exhibit P514 that was
5 marked for identification on Thursday, the 15th of November, during the
6 testimony of Francis Roy Thomas and has decided to admit it into
7 evidence, and the Chamber informs the parties that it is still to decide
8 on the admission of the two other exhibits marked for identification in
9 respect to that same witness, that is, P503 and P512.
10 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 Q. [Interpretation] We are near the end, Mr. Djozo, but I do have a
14 couple of questions left for you.
15 As a policeman and later as an inspector, in how many
16 investigations did you take part which involved Serbian civilians killed
17 in the area covered by your police station?
18 A. I can't remember. We didn't keep a record based on whether a
19 person was a Serb or a Muslim.
20 Q. Did you take part in investigations about the killings of Serbian
21 civilians in Kazani, which is an area that comes under your police
22 station, does it not?
23 A. Yes. I was in Kazani only once after the war, maybe in 1997 or
24 1998, when I think it was investigators from Belgrade arrived.
25 Q. Did you investigate the prisons that kept Serbian individuals in
1 the area under your purview? And I mean private prisons.
2 A. As far as I know, in the municipality of Stari Grad and more
3 generally in Sarajevo, there were no private prisons.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Those are all the
5 questions I had for you. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could either the witness or you, Mr. Lukic, assist
7 me in where to find approximately Kazani is, what area approximately. We
8 don't need maps, but if you tell me approximately where to find it,
9 then ...
10 Witness, if you -- if you can tell me, Kazani is found where
11 approximately? Just give us an indication.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kazani is situated on the slopes of
13 Trebevic, above the neighbourhood of Mahmutovac.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And Mahmutovac is where in relation to, for example,
15 Sirokaca? More to the west, more to the east?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The east.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'm just trying to find it. Is it close
18 to Colina Kapa?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could say that it was close.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have an idea of where it is.
21 Mr. Lukic, if you want to consult with Mr. Mladic, I'll give an
22 opportunity at the end of the witness's testimony if otherwise the
23 witness would be gone and you would have missed some instructions, but --
24 so -- but you know the rule is we would then take a very short break for
25 that at the end of the testimony, but the rule is no consultations in the
2 No further questions at this moment.
3 Mr. Weber, any questions in re-examination for the witness?
4 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have no questions either, Mr. Djozo, this
8 concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you very much
9 for coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that
10 were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe
11 return home again. You may follow the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, I'd like to deliver an oral
14 decision; that is, an oral decision on admission of associated exhibits
15 tendered with Witness Tucker.
16 The Chamber has examined the submissions by the parties with
17 regard to the associated exhibits tendered with witness Pyers Tucker and
18 hereby renders its decision on their admissibility. The Chamber grants
19 the Prosecution's request for leave to reply filed on the 19th of October
20 of this year.
21 At the outset, the Chamber reiterates that its guidance in
22 relation to the tendering of evidence does not bar the admission of any
23 evidence but aims at the clearest possible presentation thereof. The
24 Chamber recalls that the case law with regard to the admission of
25 associated exhibits pursuant to Rules 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater
1 establishes that documents can be admitted if they form an inseparable
2 and indispensable part of the witness's written testimony. This means
3 that the witness needs to have discussed the exhibits in his testimony
4 and that without them the transcript or the witness's written statement
5 would be incomprehensible or of lesser probative value. The Chamber
6 elaborated further on its approach to associated exhibits in the
7 additional clarification and amendment of its guidance on the 9th of
8 July, 2012, to be found on transcript pages 530 and 531.
9 Therefore, in cases in which the Prosecution argued that the
10 tendered exhibits provides information beyond what the witness stated, it
11 does not qualify in that respect as an exhibit which is an inseparable
12 and indispensable part of the statement or the evidence of the witness.
13 The Chamber notes that the relevance and probative value of such exhibits
14 may be considered in a different context. Further, in cases in which the
15 tendered exhibits mainly corroborates the evidence of the witness, there
16 may not be a need to tender it, though such tendering may become
17 necessary upon a challenge of the witness's evidence in that respect if
18 the exhibit has the potential to counter that challenge.
19 The Chamber has reviewed the witness statement against the
20 background of this test for admission of associated exhibits and the
21 Chamber's guidance. The Chamber notes that often lengthy parts of
22 associated exhibits were quoted in the witness statement, admitted as
23 Exhibit P317, which leads the Chamber to the conclusion that these were
24 the relevant sections that the Prosecution wanted to draw the Chamber's
25 attention to. Under these circumstances, there is no need to tender the
1 exhibits referred to in the witness statement. While the Chamber
2 considers that 11 out of the 35 tendered associated exhibits are needed
3 to properly understand the witness statement of Pyers Tucker, it finds
4 with regard to the remaining 24 documents tendered as associated
5 exhibits, that the witness statement was perfectly comprehensible on its
7 Lastly, the Chamber notes the Defence's submissions of not having
8 enough time to adequately address such large numbers of associated
9 exhibits and challenge them as part of the cross-examination. In this
10 regard, the Chamber points out that the Defence may always ask for
11 additional time, especially if the tendered associated exhibits are
13 For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber admits only the following
14 11 documents into evidence as associated exhibits to the evidence of
15 witness Tucker: 65 ter number 3396, 3406, 9328, 9564, 11245, 11249,
16 11254, 11255, 13710, 15906, 19039A.
17 With regard to the remaining associated exhibits tendered by the
18 Prosecution, the Chamber denies admission into evidence.
19 The Registrar is invited to assign exhibit numbers, and since we
20 have sufficient time at this moment, it could be done immediately.
21 THE REGISTRAR: First document number 3396 becomes Exhibit P553,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is already -- the decision on admission is
24 already taken, so I just follow your --
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3406 becomes Exhibit P554.
1 Document 9328 becomes Exhibit P555.
2 Document 9564 becomes Exhibit P556.
3 Document 11245 becomes Exhibit P557.
4 Document 11254 becomes Exhibit P558.
5 Document 11255 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- am I right that 11249 has not been
7 dealt with yet?
8 THE REGISTRAR: I will repeat all the members from the beginning
9 so that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you could. We started with 3406 -- no. We
11 started with 3396. Then we have 3406. Next, 9328. Next, 9564. Next,
12 11245. And the one coming after that.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 11249.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And 11249 will now receive number?
15 THE REGISTRAR: P558.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P558. And then we move to the next one, which is --
17 THE REGISTRAR: 11254 receives number P559.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Then document 11255 becomes Exhibit P560.
20 Document 13710 becomes Exhibit P561.
21 Document 15906 becomes Exhibit P562.
22 And document 19039A becomes Exhibit P563, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they were a minute ago admitted into
25 This concludes the Chamber's decision on this matter.
1 Are there any matters to be raised by the parties at this moment,
2 also against the background of not sitting next week?
3 MS. MARCUS: Nothing from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
4 MR. LUKIC: Can I consult briefly with the client, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may consult with the client.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing, Mr. Lukic. Could I remind you and
9 Mr. Mladic as well that if you speak as loud as you do, that you more or
10 less give up client-counsel privilege, because everyone is able then to
11 listen. Again, that is a matter for yourself, but I just make that
13 Then we adjourn for the day, and we resume Monday the 3rd of
14 December at 9.30 in the morning most likely in this same Courtroom III.
15 And there is a risk, and we are still arranging for the scheduling of the
16 several cases, there is always a risk that we have to move to the
17 afternoon because Courtroom I is not available, and we do not know
18 exactly until when. So this is a provisional indication of both the time
19 and the place, not the date, because we resume on the 3rd of December.
20 We stand adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day
23 of December, 2012, at 9.30 a.m.