1 Wednesday, 5 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 11.12 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no preliminaries, we will move into
6 closed session. But first, Madam Registrar, would you please call the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We now turn into closed
12 [Closed session]
11 Pages 5736-5763 redacted. Closed session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We take a break, and we
6 will resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
7 Mr. Groome, is the next witness ready by then?
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, we start now again, so no further
13 talking. Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 The Prosecution had requested leave to reply to the Defence
15 response to the 92 ter motion. Leave is granted.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, perhaps while we wait for the witness
17 we can address one preliminary issue we had with --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. As I was saying while we
22 wit for the witness there was one preliminary matter we wanted to bring
23 to the attention of the Court and to ask for additional guidance. The
24 Prosecution modified the 65 ter summary for the present witness, and we
25 believe not entirely in compliance with the Chamber's guidance of
1 24 August 2012, where it was clearly stated that for the purpose of
2 amending 65 ter witness summaries, it is sufficient for the party to
3 provide the opposing party and the Chamber with adequate notice of such
4 amendments as soon as possible and in any event sufficiently in advance
5 of the witness's testimony.
6 Defence notes that it received an e-mail on Sunday, December the
7 2nd, 2012, at 6.35 p.m. for this witness with three new topics for the
8 65 ter summary and two new 65 ter documents of exhibits. This is more --
9 not more than a couple days before the testimony of the witness, and this
10 testimony has been scheduled for at least two months.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'd rather first welcome the witness
12 into the courtroom.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest, and Mr. Fraser, I'm sorry, but a
15 procedural issue was raised immediately before you entered the court.
16 That's the reason why we do not start yet.
17 I suggest to the parties that the new areas are not covered
18 within the first session. Is that a possibility? I have not looked at
19 it, but --
20 MS. BOLTON: I would rather address the Court on the issue now,
21 Your Honours. These are areas that would be addressed in the first
22 session, and --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's do the following.
24 Mr. Fraser, if you wouldn't mind, we first resolve the matter
25 which may affect the examination-in-chief. And if you would have
1 patience with us, I'll ask you after we heard the parties, the parties'
2 submissions, we'll ask you to make a solemn declaration and then we'll
3 start with your testimony. Apologies for this course of proceeding.
4 Mr. Ivetic, please complete your submission which I interrupted a
5 minute ago.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We believe that although
7 with this witness it should not make a difference with the new topics,
8 we're prepared for them, but the guidance thus far that has been in place
9 has been to sufficiently in advance of the witness's testimony give
10 notice of any amendments to the 65 ter summary, and we believe in this
11 case where the amendments come from a statement that was the result of
12 discussions in July of 2012 and a statement --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I interrupt you. I heard you say we believe
14 that although with this witness it should not make a difference with the
15 new topics because you're prepared for them. Does that mean that you
16 want to put the Prosecution on notice that next time you might object?
17 Let's not let -- let's not have this witness to wait for what we'll do in
18 the future because I do understand that for this occasion you do not
19 object, and we'd like to hear from you for future occasions immediately
20 after we've heard the evidence of the witness if that's okay with you.
21 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Ms. Bolton, you will hear later from
23 Mr. Ivetic why you shouldn't do again what you have done now, but let's
24 first focus on the evidence of this witness.
25 Mr. Fraser, could I invite you to make the solemn declaration of
1 which the text is now handed out to you.
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I speak the truth, the
3 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: DAVID FRASER
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please be seated.
6 Mr. Fraser, you'll first be examined by Ms. Bolton. Ms. Bolton
7 is counsel for the Prosecution.
8 MS. BOLTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Ms. Bolton:
10 Q. Good afternoon.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. I'm just going to start by reminding you that there are
13 translators at work in the courtroom, and it's important, therefore, that
14 you and I try not to speak too quickly, and if we can in particular try
15 to pause between my questions and your answers that would be of
17 A. Understood.
18 MS. BOLTON: May I have 65 ter 82590 [sic], please.
19 Q. Sir, you should see before you a document titled "Witness
20 Statement." Do you recognise this document?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And scrolling down on the English version of this document, do
23 you recognise the signature that appears on page 1 of the English
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Whose signature is that?
2 A. That would be mine.
3 MS. BOLTON: And could I ask that we turn to page 39 in the
4 English version only.
5 Q. Again we see a signature on this statement. Do you recognise
6 that signature?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Whose is it?
9 A. That would be mine.
10 Q. The -- is this a copy, sir, of the statement that you provided to
11 the Office of the Prosecution?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And for the record, the date on this statement, it was signed on
14 the 3rd of December, 2012. However, I'm going to suggest that the
15 statement of 3rd December 2012 was identical in content to a statement
16 you had previously signed on the 2nd of October, 2012, with the exception
17 that the diacritics in the earlier statement appeared as brackets and
18 punctuation marks.
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And you've had an opportunity, sir, to review this statement
21 during meetings with the Prosecution leading up to your testimony?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 MS. BOLTON: May I please have 65 ter 28601.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I take the opportunity, Ms. Bolton, to put on the
25 record that we looked until now at 289 -- 590, whereas in page 32,
1 line 23, it appears under a different number, and whether you misspoke or
2 whether it's a transcription mistake, I do not know, but it should be
3 28590. And we now move to 28601.
4 MS. BOLTON:
5 Q. Sir, you should see before you a one-page document, and if we
6 could scroll to the bottom of this document. There is a signature and
7 date. Whose signature appears on this document?
8 A. That is my signature.
9 Q. And is this a document setting out clarifications and corrections
10 to the statement we were just looking at, being 65 ter 28590?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And taking into account those corrections and clarifications,
13 does the statement you've provided to the Office of the Prosecution
14 accurately reflect the information you've provided to the Office of the
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 Q. And if you were asked similar questions today to those posed at
18 the time of your giving your original statement, would your answers be
19 substantially the same?
20 A. Yes, they would.
21 Q. And having now taken the solemn affirmation in this court, do you
22 solemnly affirm the truthfulness of your statement?
23 A. I do.
24 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, I would ask that both exhibit 28590
25 and the corrections, 65 ter 28601, be introduced as exhibits.
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 28590 will be Exhibit P576,
4 and 65 ter 28601 will be Exhibit P577.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P576 and P577 are admitted into evidence.
6 You may proceed.
7 MS. BOLTON: I would also ask at this time, Your Honour, there
8 were with respect to the response filed by the Defence with respect to
9 the admission of the associated exhibits only three exhibits that were
10 objected to in substance, although they did object to the total number
11 being 21, and I would ask the admission of all the exhibits, associated
12 exhibits, except for the three objected to which I would propose to deal
13 with at the end of my examination.
14 MR. IVETIC: That should be fine, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll invite Madam Registrar to prepare a list
16 and provisionally assign numbers so they are reserved, and meanwhile,
18 MS. BOLTON: Yes. If I may assist Madam Registrar by indicating
19 the 65 ter numbers of the three exhibits I understood the Defence to be
20 objecting to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. BOLTON: Those --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please name them.
24 MS. BOLTON: Those are 65 ter 11189, 09741, and 08735.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have all the other numbers, Madam Registrar,
1 of associated exhibits?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, I do, including the three that
3 are objected to.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
5 MS. BOLTON: With the Court's permission may I read a summary of
6 the witness's evidence?
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may so, Ms. Bolton.
8 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
9 Major-General David Fraser served with the Canadian Armed Forces
10 for 37 years, achieving the third highest rank available in the Canadian
12 From the 17th of April, 1995, until the 26th of May, 1995,
13 General Fraser served as military assistant to the commander for UNPROFOR
14 forces in Sector Sarajevo, serving first under General Soubirou then
15 under General Gobillard. Sorry, his dates of service were from
16 April 1994 till May 1995.
17 At that time, there were approximately 4.000 UN soldiers serving
18 in Sector Sarajevo. Their duties included ensuring freedom of movement
19 for humanitarian aid, monitoring adherence with the February 1994
20 cease-fire agreement, monitoring of the weapons collection points
21 established pursuant to that agreement, performing anti-sniping duties,
22 conducting investigations into civilian casualties and deaths from
23 shelling and sniping and protesting those incidents.
24 While serving in Sarajevo, General Fraser met with high-ranking
25 members of both warring factions including both military -- members of
1 the military and politicians. He met General Mladic in person on a few
2 occasions and in addition, he was regularly present during teleconference
3 calls in which General Mladic was a participant. It was clear from
4 General Fraser's dealings with General Mladic's subordinates including
5 both Generals Mladic and Milosevic that there was an effective command
6 and control structure in place and that General Mladic was at the top of
7 the command chain.
8 General Fraser made observations during his time in Sarajevo
9 about artillery fire and sniping fire. He reached the conclusion in
10 terms of sniping that the VRS was intentionally targeting civilians. In
11 terms of shelling, he observed that some of the shelling by the VRS was
12 in response to provocations from the ABiH. Generally speaking, however,
13 that response was disproportionate and random, and for every outgoing
14 ABiH shell the BSA would generally launch ten shells in response.
15 Finally, during General Fraser's time in Sarajevo, he noticed the
16 BSA began to use modified air bombs. It was his opinion that those
17 weapons lacked any military value.
18 That's the summary, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions, you
20 may put them to the witness.
21 MS. BOLTON: Thank you. May I please have 65 ter 17690, page 1
22 in both English and B/C/S.
23 Q. You should see before you, sir, a document. Do you recognise
24 this document?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Could you tell us the date of this document?
2 A. It is dated the 19th of September, 1994.
3 Q. Further down the subject title reads, "Press release,
4 22nd September 1994." What does that suggest to you about the date of
5 the 19th September 1994?
6 A. This is an advisory of a press release that's going to go out on
7 the 22nd.
8 Q. All right. And the releasing officer here?
9 A. Would be me.
10 MS. BOLTON: And could we turn to the second page in both English
11 and B/C/S. Could we focus on the last paragraph in English on this page
12 and you'll need to go to page 3 in the B/C/S version to find that
14 Q. If you could just take a moment and read this to yourself, sir.
15 Sir, would you agree with me that this is a document explaining the
16 reasons that some NATO air-strikes were requested and carried out?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. And who was it that called for those air-strikes?
19 A. The UN called for the air-strikes.
20 Q. And does the document indicate who specifically within the UN or
22 A. I don't see in the document who actually called. It was the UN
23 that requested these calls -- the strikes though.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that that be tendered as the next
1 exhibit, please, Your Honour.
2 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 17690 will be Exhibit P578.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
6 MS. BOLTON: May I ask for Exhibit 65 ter 10737, please. May I
7 ask, Your Honours, if the witness could have a hard copy of his statement
8 to assist him in following along during cross -- during examination?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Assuming that the Defence has no objection, it may
10 be --
11 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- given to the witness.
13 MS. BOLTON:
14 Q. I'm going to be asking you questions about paragraph 142 of your
15 statement, sir, and I'll read you the portion I'm interested in, but
16 please feel free, if it assists you, to turn to the paragraph as well.
17 At paragraph 142, you indicate, and I'll quote:
18 "On the 23rd September 1994, I was present at a meeting between
19 General Mladic and General Brinkman. General Mladic made it clear during
20 that meeting that he controlled what happened in Sarajevo.
21 General Mladic was insensed over the air-strikes and demanded an apology.
22 When no apology was forthcoming he threatened to stop all convoys from
23 entering Sarajevo. He carried through with this threat and closed all
24 check-points in Bosnian Serb territory for a time."
25 What air-strikes was General Mladic upset about?
1 A. He was referring to the air-strikes referenced in the previous
2 document you had me look at.
3 Q. And if I could now ask you to look at the document that's before
4 you on the screen. Do you recognise this document?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. What organisation is this document from?
7 A. It's from the UN headquarters in Sarajevo that General Rose had
8 commanded, and it's from General Brinkman, his Chief of Staff.
9 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that we please focus in on the text on
10 page 1 in the English version under "Message." And in the B/C/S version,
11 I believe you'd scroll down the page. I believe you may have to turn the
12 page. Yes. Thank you.
13 Q. General Brinkman indicates there:
14 "During a telephone conversation that I had yesterday at 2000 H,"
15 I take it, "with the BSA commander General Mladic, he threatened to
16 attack UNPROFOR with the same degree of warning that was given to him by
17 UNPROFOR at 22nd September '94. This attack is to take place if UNPROFOR
18 don't respond to the BSA in a satisfactory manner within 24 hours."
19 And then at paragraph 3 is an indication:
20 "In a letter to BHC HQ last evenly (23rd September) BSA HQ
21 announced that they would not approve any movement on BSA territory or by
22 helicopter and therefore allow the activities of UNPROFOR on its
23 territory until the BSA has been able to assess the situation. This will
24 have a major impact on convoys and liaison into Sarajevo and the
1 My questions for you, sir, are: Is this the same or a different
2 meeting as the meeting you were discussing in paragraph 142 of your
4 A. This would be the same.
5 Q. General Brinkman's facsimile suggests that this was a
6 conversation that took place over the telephone; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And how is it that if General Brinkman was speaking to
9 General Mladic on the phone that you could hear what both parties were
11 A. Use speaker-phones back then so people could hear and take notes.
12 Q. And was this the only occasion when you participated in a
13 speaker-telephone conversation in which General Mladic was a participant?
14 A. No. There were other ones where I listened in on with
15 General Rose or with my commander.
16 Q. Any idea how often or how many there might have been.
17 A. I can't give you a specific number, but it was more than three or
19 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that this document be introduced as the
20 next exhibit.
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 10737 will be Exhibit P579.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under that number. Please proceed.
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. I want to turn to the topic/discussion at paragraphs, sort of, 30
2 to 38 of your statement which is where you set out some of your general
3 observations of General Mladic's interactions with his subordinates,
4 including General Galic and General Milosevic. You indicate that you
5 made observations of the interactions of General Galic and Mladic at
6 paragraph 33 and that they appeared to work well together. Do you recall
7 when it was you had occasion to see the two men together?
8 A. It would have been probably at the airport at some of the
9 meetings we had.
10 Q. What were those meetings about?
11 A. We would talk about cease-fire violations, ongoing situations,
12 trying to ameliorate the situation around Sarajevo.
13 Q. And did you have occasion also to see General Mladic directly
14 interact with General Milosevic?
15 A. I believe I did. Same thing. It was clear from my observations
16 with both Generals Galic and Milosevic that it was General Mladic -- was
17 the -- the commander. He had effective command and control over them and
18 they responded to his direction.
19 Q. And what is it that you base that -- that on?
20 A. On our conversations and discussions from the sector level with
21 the two generals in question about freedom of movement, sniping
22 incidents, cease-fire violations. At times both those generals would
23 have no latitude and would not be able to respond to our protests because
24 they were indicating that it was from a direction that they had received,
25 and in some cases they had a little bit of flexibility on maybe some
1 sniping. And again we could tell from the dialogue with them that there
2 was a structure above them that was controlling their actions.
3 Q. And in terms of them -- occasions when they indicated that these
4 were matters outside of their control and that they were being directed
5 from somebody else, did they indicate who was directing?
6 A. In many cases they would indicate, yes, that the -- their
7 headquarters, and General Mladic was -- you know, they were following the
8 orders given to them by him and his headquarters.
9 Q. Were there ever any occasions during your conversations with
10 either General Galic or General Milosevic when they questioned an order
11 or direction they had received from their headquarters or General Mladic?
12 A. Nothing that I recall.
13 Q. Or any occasions when they appeared to be acting contrary to
14 those orders or directions?
15 A. Nothing that comes to mind.
16 Q. You allude to paragraph 34 to a discussion you had with
17 General Milosevic --
18 MS. BOLTON: And I would ask that perhaps we go into closed
19 session briefly for this area.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session. Would that do,
21 Ms. Bolton?
22 MS. BOLTON: Private, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 Q. You had indicated, sir, that you had a conversation --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Ms. Bolton.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 5780-5782 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. BOLTON:
7 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd like to deal with a topic you discuss at
8 paragraphs 126 to 135 of your statement, which is the issue of modified
9 air bombs. Was there ever an occasion during your time in Sarajevo when
10 you had the opportunity to either hear or see a modified air bomb in
12 A. I never personally saw or heard one. I only read the reports
13 that came in from the field.
14 Q. And do you recall what time period it was when you first started
15 to receive reports about these weapons?
16 A. It would have been sometime in the spring of 1995.
17 Q. Based on the information that you were receiving, what was the
18 description in terms of the sound that these weapons made?
19 A. It -- or it was clearly something you could hear and something
20 that you could see because of just the sheer size of this thing going
21 through the air, and it was something quite different than what we had
22 experienced before, and the explosion -- resulting explosion was
23 significantly louder with more devastating effects on the ground.
24 Q. You indicate at paragraph 126 of your statement that as far as
25 you were concerned, modified air bombs had no military value. What do
1 you mean by that?
2 A. In the context of Sarajevo being a densely populated city, the
3 use of these systems that first were jerry-rigged had no guidance, they
4 were just kind of pointed and fired. You could not control the point of
5 impact, and quite frankly, firing one of these things into a densely
6 populated city, there is no military purpose for something like that.
7 MS. BOLTON: I'd like to have 65 ter 18616, please.
8 Q. This is a document, sir --
9 MS. BOLTON: Could we scroll down in the English version, please.
10 Q. It purports to have been signed by Colonel Tadija Manojlovic,
11 hear of artillery.
12 MS. BOLTON: Could we scroll up, please.
13 Q. It's addressed from the colonel of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
14 command to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and it's dated
15 April 26, 1995. I'm going to quote you some portions of the text, the
16 body of the text, and then I'll have some questions for you. It states
17 in the document:
18 "In the morning briefing on the 26th of April, 1995, a decision
19 has been taken to hit the village of Donji Kotorac (tunnel entry)."
20 It goes on to say that:
21 "Firing should have commenced in the early evening hours, and the
22 necessary preparations for the firing operation performed beforehand.
23 "The detailed estimate of all structures in the immediate
24 vicinity of the tunnel entrance has been performed from the observation
25 post on Ilinjaca. The measuring" -- I'm skipping topographic point 655.
1 "The measuring performed with instruments indicated that two UNPROFOR
2 check-points are located, at most, 200 metres away while the UNPROFOR
3 observers are constantly communicating through Donji Kotorac from their
4 observation points. Our forward end is located some 500 metres away from
5 the tunnel entrance and the direction of fire is via Kula restaurant."
6 He then states a little later in the document that:
7 "I gave up as the firing would have endangered our forces and UN
9 And finishes by saying:
10 "The commander will brief you on other matters upon his arrival
11 at the command."
12 Were you acquainted with a tunnel in the location of
13 Donji Kotorac?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. And where is that tunnel relative to the Butmir airport?
16 A. It is just across from the airport. It was on the Muslim side.
17 Q. Were there in fact UNPROFOR check-points located approximately
18 200 metres away from the tunnel entrance?
19 A. Yes, there was. It was just entering right into the airport.
20 Q. And the reference in the document to the fact that UNPROFOR
21 observers are constantly communicating through Donji Kotorac, is that
23 A. Yes, it is. UN forces would traverse the airport and transit in
24 front of the tunnel entrance going through that side of the -- of the
1 Q. And was there, in fact, an SRK forward end or front line located
2 approximately 500 metres from that tunnel entrance?
3 A. Yes, there was.
4 Q. The statement that "the head of artillery gave up on the firing
5 as it would have endangered our forces and UN forces," what does that
6 tell you about the accuracy of the weapon they were contemplating using?
7 A. Well, it is indicative that the head of artillery understood some
8 of the characteristics of the weapon system. He did deliberate planning
9 for a potential use of this weapon system against this target, and at the
10 very least there is -- there is a 500 metre probability of error for the
11 beaten zone of this weapon system. If he was not prepared to fire it
12 because of the danger to his own troops. It was not a very accurate
13 weapon system.
14 Q. How would that compare with, for example, the beaten zone for a
15 direct fire weapon like a tank.
16 A. It would be like using an scalpel or a butter knife. A tank
17 would be much, much more accurate that you put it in within probably
18 inches or a foot of your -- where you're aiming and this was clearly, at
19 the very least, 500 metres from where you would aim it.
20 MS. BOLTON: May I ask that this be tendered as the next exhibit,
21 Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 18616 will be Exhibit P580.
24 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, P580 is admitted
25 into evidence.
1 MS. BOLTON: May I please have 65 ter 10019. While we're waiting
2 for that to come up, Your Honours, I would indicate that Ms. Stewart has
3 assisted me in terms of the date in which the missing page was disclosed.
4 It was disclosed on the 30th of November in batch 49, along with a note
5 advising the Defence that this replaced the previous statement.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's a time quite different from what you
7 indicated earlier, isn't it?
8 MS. BOLTON: Not with respect to the B/C/S version of the
9 statement, Your Honour, which, as I'd indicated, has always had that
10 missing page.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
12 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
13 Q. You have before you, sir, -- it we could concentrate on the top
14 right-hand corner in English. A handwritten note on this document which
15 reads, "Colonel Tadija gave partial reply." And the document is also
16 written or dated the 26th of April, 1995. This purports to be a document
17 written by commander Ratko Mladic to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command.
18 And again I'll read you portions and then I'll have some questions for
20 "We are in possession of information that you are planning to use
21 two air bombs against enemy targets and settlements in the area of
22 Sarajevo in the evening or during the night of 26 April 1995.
23 "You are to inform me whether the above-mentioned information is
24 correct, who ordered and why, the planned use of heavy weapons and
25 beginning of operations in the area of Sarajevo, if it is a question of
1 retaliation and for what reason, or exploitation of operative effects.
2 "If the Supreme Command has issued an order to begin the combat
3 operations and use heavy weapons in the area of Sarajevo, it is your duty
4 to inform me.
5 "Before you begin with combat operations in the area Sarajevo,
6 you are to provide me with a detailed report on planning, measures and
7 goals in order to take a decision at the level of the Army of the
8 Republika Srpska Main Staff."
9 How does this document appear to compare with the exhibit we just
11 A. The two seem to be linked, and this document appears to reinforce
12 the command of General Mladic on what activities happen in Sarajevo.
13 Q. In document -- sorry, from the previous document we learned that
14 the decision to use weapons and to launch an attack on the tunnel had
15 been made during the morning of the 26th of April, 1995, and we have a
16 response from General Mladic that same day indicating that he's aware of
17 this planned use. What does that tell you about the effectiveness or --
18 sorry, about his knowledge, General Mladic's knowledge, of what was
19 occurring in his subordinate units in Sarajevo?
20 MR. IVETIC: Object as it calls for speculation as to
21 General Mladic's knowledge.
22 MS. BOLTON: I'll rephrase the question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. What does that suggest to you about the information or
1 communications system within the VRS?
2 A. From the two documents, it suggests to me that there is an
3 information passage capability to General Mladic that is both timely and
4 accurate, such that he is able to write this letter back down to the
5 Romanija Corps before actions are supposed to happen. This all is
6 happening in a day which suggests to me a very effective communication
7 system of information passage and staffing and providing guidance to his
8 subordinate corps.
9 Q. Based on your interactions with the VRS, do you have any
10 information as to how it would be possible if General Mladic wasn't
11 copied on the previous order that he would be aware that this was --
12 planned operation was going to make place?
13 A. From my experience during this time, there were two chains of
14 command. There was the operational chain of command, General Mladic to
15 his corps commander. But there was also the extensive use of liaison
16 officers embedded in those formations, i.e., the corps or the brigade,
17 that reported directly back to General Mladic, for example, Major --
18 Colonel Indic was the liaison officer at the Romanija Corps whose -- his
19 rank did not really indicate his influence, because he did not report to
20 the corps commander. He responded to the direction from the army
21 headquarters out of Pale.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, I'm looking at the clock. The Chamber
23 intends to take a break now a bit more longer than usual so we have time
24 for lunch. We would come back at 2.30 and that we would then have an
25 extended session of 75 minutes being the last session for today. We
1 resume at 2.30.
2 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 Ms. Bolton, you have got 42 minutes left.
8 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Fraser. Ms. Bolton will now
11 continue her examination.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. BOLTON: Thank you.
14 Q. Just before the break, General, we were discussing how there were
15 in essence two chains of command and the role that liaison officers
16 played and you said there was the operational chain of command,
17 General Mladic to his corps commanders. In terms of the ability to, for
18 example, control shelling or sniping or offensive military operations, is
19 that something that lay with Colonel Indic or somebody else?
20 A. That would be the responsibility of Generals Milosevic or
21 Galic -- Ganic.
22 Q. So when you're talking about operational command, it encompasses
24 A. It encompasses all the movement of troops or the action of combat
1 Q. And based on your observations, General Indic was the source of
2 information about what was happening in what, the corps, the brigade?
3 A. Indic provided us information about what was the intentions of --
4 the headquarters out of Pale were. If we wanted to get a message out to
5 General Mladic we could also tell Indic and he would relay that
6 information up there, and he was essentially the eyes and ears of the
7 army headquarters down in -- at the Romanija Corps. He was a -- for the
8 most part a participant of all the meetings I attended with my commander
9 with the Serbian corps commander.
10 MS. BOLTON: Your Honours, may I move for admission of the
11 document we were discussing before the break which was 65 ter 10019.
12 MR. IVETIC: No objection from the Defence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 10019 will be Exhibit P581.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. While you were in Sarajevo, did the UNPROFOR or sector command
18 have dealings with the UNMOs?
19 A. My commander dealt with the UNMOs. They were not part of his
20 chain of command. They reported directly up to Zagreb, but we would have
21 regular correspondence and dialogue with them.
22 Q. And would you share information in the terms of -- of their
23 reports, for example?
24 A. We shared reports, so any of their investigations we would have
25 received copies of them and vice versa. They were working out of the PTT
1 building where my sector headquarters was located. And as I say, we
2 didn't work for each other, but we would collaborate with information.
3 MS. BOLTON: Okay. May I have 65 ter 11192, please.
4 Q. And while that's being brought up, General, I'm going to remind
5 you of a portion of your statement at paragraph 130, and I'll read this
6 for the Court so you don't need to look at -- display the statement.
7 There you state:
8 "During my testimony in Prosecutor versus Karadzic, I was shown
9 document bearing ERN ET0528-8044-0528-8046, a regular combat report from
10 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. The document was addressed to the
11 Main Staff of the Army of the Republika Srpska and was signed by
12 General Dragomir Milosevic. The document indicates that the Ilidza
13 Brigade of the SRK launched a 250-kilogramme modified air bomb at the
14 centre of Hrasnica on 7th April 1995. Hrasnica was essentially a
15 civilian area (Muslim) at the foot of Mount Igman."
16 Could I ask you now to look at the document on the screen before
17 you, and could you tell me if you recognise this document.
18 A. I recognise the document.
19 Q. Who or what organisation authored this document?
20 A. This is a report from one of the UNMO teams.
21 Q. And the subject line says "Large EXP in Hrasnica on
22 7th April 95." What is EXP short for?
23 A. Explosion.
24 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that we turn to page 2 in the English
25 version of the document and also in the B/C/S version of the document.
1 At -- sorry, if we could scroll up to the top of the page, please.
2 Q. There's an indication there:
3 "From BiH sources after the weapon was fired, the time of flight
4 was approximately 20 seconds. The weapon left a trail of black smoke and
5 was slow in flight."
6 Could you tell me how that description compares with the
7 description you received about the flight of modified air bombs?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the right page in B/C/S.
9 MS. BOLTON: My apologies.
10 Q. General, could you tell us?
11 A. That would be consistent with the reports that we received of
12 aerial bombs.
13 MS. BOLTON: And could I go back to page 1 in the English
14 version, please.
15 Q. There's an indication at paragraph 2 that:
16 "The weapon used is believed to be a homemade device consisting
17 of an aircraft bomb and four 120-millimetre MBRL rockets."
18 And then at paragraph 3 to the team retrieving several large
19 pieces from the weapon including three 128-millimetre rocket bodies, the
20 parts of a possible aircraft bomb fuse and three large steel plates.
21 How do those components compare with descriptions of other
22 modified air bombs you'd heard about?
23 A. They are consistent with what the reports we were -- we were
24 receiving of these air bombs.
25 MS. BOLTON: May I ask that this document be tendered as the next
1 exhibit, Your Honour.
2 MR. IVETIC: Objection from the Defence, Your Honours. This
3 document was disclosed to us for the first time less than 24 hours ago.
4 Seven days ago we received 28 new documents that had been previously
5 undisclosed for this witness, many of whom were presented in proofing
6 with this witness. This document was not on at that list, so we presume
7 unless the witness brought this document with him it was unduly withheld
8 by the Prosecution and [indiscernible] notice of it, and it's in
9 violation of your guidance from previously as to documents for witnesses
10 and when they should be disclosed to Defence. So I think on principle I
11 have to stand on this document and object, given the nature of all the
12 surprises we've had with this witness thus far.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
14 MS. BOLTON: This document was referred to in the final paragraph
15 of the e-mail that was sent on the 2nd of December, 2012. This was a
16 document that I wasn't sure the witness was going to be able to speak to
17 until it was shown to him, and so I wrote at that time and said for the
18 benefit of the Defence and Trial Chamber, I'm also writing to advise that
19 I anticipate discussing 65 ter 11192 with the witness during proofing.
20 Depending on the witness's comments, this document may be included on the
21 Prosecution's final list of exhibits which I anticipate producing as soon
22 as proofing is complete.
23 So there was notice as of Sunday that this was a potential
24 exhibit for the witness, and I'm just going to wait for my -- Ms. Stewart
25 to assist me in terms of the date of disclosure of this document to the
1 Defence if I may have a moment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Was it on your 65 ter list?
3 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, is it on the 65 -- you mean the --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit list. That is intended to be used as
6 MS. BOLTON: Yes, it's always had 11192. Is that what you're --
7 yes. Yes, Your Honour, I understand your question.
8 And sorry, Your Honour, it was disclosed as part of batch 4 as
9 part of a larger range, which would be -- and, sorry, I'm just going to
10 get you the date it was uploaded into e-court. You will recall batch 4
11 was part of, I believe, the materials that were disclosed in the spring.
12 Yes. And it's been available on e-court since the 25th of April, 2012.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton, it sounds as if you do not understand at
14 all how when something was already -- was already given notice of the
15 2nd of December, which was Sunday, how Mr. Ivetic could even think about
16 complaining. That's how it sounds, and that sounds similar to somewhere
17 after the 2nd of October when you referred to, I think, the
18 30th of November. Of course, it's right, that is after the 2nd of
19 October, but Mr. Ivetic referred to timely giving notice.
20 MS. BOLTON: Sorry, he referred to seeing it for the first time,
21 I believe, yesterday, Your Honour, which is incorrect. It has been
22 disclosed for months.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In this context -- I think in this context that's
24 how I understood his words. And he referred to the guidance of the
25 Chamber. Have you any comments on that?
1 MS. BOLTON: I do, Your Honour. As I understand the guidance, we
2 provide a list of documents seven days in advance that we are reasonably
3 sure we're going to be introducing. Your guidance, though, has always
4 indicated that there is some flexibility, because, of course, things come
5 up during proofing which --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but isn't it true that you presented this
7 document to the witness during proofing so that you have prepared for
8 proofing so that you would know what you'd put to the witness during
9 proofing. And then to say that -- I mean, the witness didn't bring the
10 document, is it?
11 MS. BOLTON: I'm sure I'm not following Your Honour. I --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
13 MS. BOLTON: I didn't have any idea whether this could be
14 introduced through this witness until it was shown to him during proofing
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you had selected it for proofing, isn't it?
17 MS. BOLTON: On Sunday I selected this document for proofing and
18 I immediately sent an e-mail to the Defence to that effect.
19 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it true that you gave notice already before the
22 proofing that you intended to use this document during proofing?
23 MS. BOLTON: That's correct, Your Honour. As soon as I
24 located --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Why had you not done that a couple of days before?
1 MS. BOLTON: Because when I did my initial searches, Your Honour,
2 the document didn't show up as being associated to this witness, and so
3 once I found it by going through online our 65 ter list to see if we had
4 documents relating to this incident, I located it and I notified the
5 Defence as soon as it was located.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be marked for identification.
8 Ms. Bolton, one of the problems with your explanation is that if that
9 would happen with more documents that the element of surprise would take
10 dimensions which are to be avoided. Please proceed.
11 And the number, of course, should be assigned.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be P582 marked for
14 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status for the time being.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. BOLTON:
17 Q. General, can I move to the topic of shelling generally, not
18 modified air bombs at this point. You indicate at paragraph 102 of your
19 statement that after the February 1994 cease-fire agreement was signed,
20 there was a decrease in the shelling in the city of Sarajevo. Could you
21 tell us did there come a time when shelling began to increase again?
22 A. It did over time.
23 Q. Do you recall approximately what time period it was that it
24 started to pick up again?
25 A. It started to pick up again in the spring.
1 Q. Of what year?
2 A. 1995.
3 Q. At paragraph 120 and 121 of your statement, you describe the
4 shelling of the Lukavica Barracks by the ABiH, and you describe that
5 attack -- or, sorry, the BSA response to that attack as being
6 indiscriminate and disproportionate. And you state that the barracks was
7 a legitimate military target and there was no indication from "our troops
8 that the ABiH shells were falling outside the barracks into civilian
10 When you refer to "our troops," who were you talking about?
11 A. We had UN troops at the Lukavica Barracks complex, and initially
12 when we received reports from them that the Serbian corps headquarters
13 was being shelled we do admit we were surprised because this was the
14 first time this had happened. We called back to the Bosnian corps
15 headquarters and advised them to stop in the sense of because we knew
16 what was going to happen, which did happen later that day, which Sarajevo
17 received countless numbers of artillery rounds coming into the city not
18 directed at -- at the Muslim Corps headquarters but they seemed to be
19 random throughout the city.
20 Q. And when you indicate, sorry, that you had troops at the
21 headquarters on that occasion, do you have any recollection as to
22 approximately when this incident took place?
23 A. I do not recall the actual date. I just recall the incident and
24 the details of the incident because it was, as I say, the first time we
25 had ever witnessed one side firing at a corps headquarters.
1 Q. We can move on to the topic of sniping, sir. Paragraph 65 of
2 your statement you refer to the fact that if someone picks up a weapon,
3 then they become a military target, and if they use that weapon in an
4 offensive manner towards the other side. An armed soldier is a
5 legitimate military target.
6 What about an unarmed soldier, somebody who is off duty?
7 A. If somebody is wearing the uniform and can be identified as a
8 soldier of the opposite side, they would be legitimate targets.
9 Q. And if they're not in uniform?
10 A. They would be for the -- I would constitute them as noncombatants
11 and not a legitimate target.
12 MS. BOLTON: May I have 65 ter 10 -- 10821, please.
13 Q. While that's being brought up, General, at paragraphs 90 to 94 of
14 your statement, you've discussed the anti-sniping agreement that was
15 entered into in August of 1994. Do you recall that agreement?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. On the screen before you, you should see a letter, and it's
18 addressed to a Colonel Lugonja, security officer in the Romanija Corps.
19 It's dated the 17th of August, 1994. And if we could scroll down to the
20 bottom of the document, please, it's signed by Colonel Gausseres. Did
21 you know Colonel Gausseres?
22 A. I knew Colonel Gausseres, yes.
23 Q. And Colonel Lugonja?
24 A. I knew him, yeah. I knew him, yes.
25 Q. And this document refers at paragraph 2, second sentence
1 indication that on your request:
2 "There will be no anti-sniping team on your side, but you are
3 expected not to retaliate if you don't want to worsen an already tense
4 situation with as probable result a break of the deal agreed."
5 Could you tell us what they're talking about when they're talking
6 about putting an anti-sniping team on your side?
7 A. The UN was responsible for protecting civilians on both sides of
8 the confrontation line. Any actions between the two war factions was
9 something the UN would not engage in directly, but when it came to
10 civilians we would. As part of the anti-sniping agreement, we put into
11 place an anti-sniping task force where we put UN troops on the Bosnian
12 side, and we asked to put troops on the Serbian side. They refused, and
13 this refers to their decision not to accept our anti-sniping task force
14 on their side of the line.
15 Q. Did the duties of the anti-sniping task force include
16 investigating alleged incidents of sniping against civilians?
17 A. Yes, it did.
18 Q. And was -- and determining the origin or probable origin of the
19 shot or the fire?
20 A. It included determining where the point of shot came from, what
21 was the result of that shot up to and including protesting to the
22 applicable side.
23 Q. And as far as you're aware, did the Bosnian Serbs ever explain
24 why they wouldn't allow an anti-sniping team on their side of the
25 confrontation line?
1 A. They never explained it to us, no.
2 Q. There is also a reference in paragraph 4, it states:
3 "We will comply to your wish not [sic] to protect your trolley
4 bus line ..."
5 Was there any explanation -- sorry, when we talked about
6 protecting a trolley bus line, what do you understand the UN was offering
7 to do?
8 A. We were offering to put up protective barriers or putting
9 anti-sniping forces there to prevent somebody from shooting at the
10 trolley buses.
11 Q. And was any explanation offered as to why the Bosnian Serbs would
12 refuse that offer?
13 A. None was given to us.
14 Q. Are you aware of whether the sniping of civilians in BSA-held
15 areas of Sarajevo was discussed in the Serbian or Bosnian Serbian media?
16 A. I do recall at times when Serbian civilians were injured or
17 killed we would read about it in the media and at times the Serbs would
18 protest against us.
19 Q. Could this document be marked as the next exhibit, please?
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P583.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 MS. BOLTON: May I have, please, 65 ter 10994. There are -- for
25 the assistance of the Court the original here is in French and if we
1 could have page 3 of the original document first. If we could scroll up.
2 Q. This document, sir, is from 4.0 Secteur de-Sarajevo [French
3 spoken] do you recognise this document?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And what is [French spoken]?
6 A. The Infantry Battalion number 2 also referred to as FreBat 2 was
7 one of the three French battalions. This one was at -- located at the
8 airport and also assigned to provide the bulk of the anti-sniping task
10 MS. BOLTON: Could we bring up the -- we have the English
11 translation of this document on the screen. Could we bring up the B/C/S
12 translation of this document, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have two English versions.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, can counsel clarify which page in
15 e-court. There is 11 pages total in the document.
16 MS. BOLTON: That's the -- I believe, the document you have on
17 the screen. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar is asking for the page.
19 MS. BOLTON: Yes. No. I think she has the correct page
20 displayed, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine.
22 MS. BOLTON:
23 Q. This is a document, sir, looking at the English translation of
24 the FreBat report from the 14th of September, 1994, where there's an
25 indication if we could scroll down, please, in both versions, of an
1 investigation by the anti-sniping team into firing on the 6th September
2 from a cannon coming from the Ilidza Terme Hotel at civilians crossing
3 the bridge, and then again on the 2nd of September, 1994, again
4 20-millimetre cannon fired by the Serbs both at the population and two
5 UNPROFOR vehicles.
6 The weapon involved in this instant case is described as a
7 20-millimetre cannon. Could you tell us is that a specialised piece of
8 sniping equipment?
9 A. No, it's not.
10 Q. And if I could just tender this document then, Your Honours?
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 0 -- 10994 will be Exhibit
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 MS. BOLTON: I'm going to ask for a video-clip bearing
16 65 ter 22329 to be played. I will indicate, Your Honour, that the
17 Prosecution is not relying on the audio for this clip, just the visual,
18 and it's only about 11 seconds in duration.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "This was the moment. A second French peacekeeper is killed by a
21 sniper while trying to erect protective barricades in Sarajevo."
22 JUDGE ORIE: You said no audio. We only have audio but no video.
23 MS. BOLTON: We're experiencing technical difficulties. I'll
24 just give Ms. Stewart a moment to --
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it you do not want to rely on the spoken
2 MS. BOLTON: I don't wish to rely on the text, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
4 MS. BOLTON: With the Court's indulgence.
5 Q. Could I ask you, sir, while we're waiting for that to be brought
6 up, you describe at paragraph 88 of your statement an incident involving
7 the death of an UNPROFOR soldier performing anti-sniping duties.
8 A. I recall it very clearly.
9 Q. If you could watch, I think we're going to have the clip
10 available in a moment.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MS. BOLTON:
13 Q. We saw a very short clip there of sniper fire at a UN vehicle.
14 Is this the incident you were describing in your statement?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Do you recall approximately when that incident took place?
17 A. I believe it was in April of 1995.
18 MS. BOLTON: If that could be marked as the next exhibit, please,
19 Your Honour.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video played and marked with
23 65 ter 22329 will be Exhibit P585.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P585 is admitted into evidence.
25 MS. BOLTON:
1 Q. The last subject area I want to discuss with you, General, is the
2 situation in April 1994 when you first assumed your duties as a military
3 assistant to the Sector Sarajevo commander. According to your statement,
4 you arrived in Sarajevo on the 17th of April, 1994. And could you tell
5 us if at the time of your arrival you were given any kind of briefing as
6 to what had been going on?
7 A. I received a general briefing up in Zagreb from the Canadian
8 headquarters and then moved down into Sarajevo and received a detailed
9 briefing from the outgoing military assistant Christian de Bergeron.
10 Q. And was Mr. de Bergeron somebody who was known to you previously
11 or did you just meet him in Sarajevo?
12 A. I met him in Sarajevo but he was from the Canadian army and from
13 the Van Doos regiment.
14 Q. And do you recall what you were told and what the situation was
15 on the ground when you arrived in Sarajevo with respect to freedom of
16 movement for UNMOs, UNPROFOR, and humanitarian aid convoys?
17 A. I was informed that freedom of movement was limited and
18 restricted and controlled by the warring factions, principally the Serbs.
19 The situation in Sarajevo was dire given the siege that was going on, the
20 shelling and sniping. And also at that time the enclaves were under
21 significant pressure, and when I arrived principally it was -- the main
22 effort was in Gorazde.
23 MS. BOLTON: May I please have 65 ter 10018.
24 Q. Looking at the English version of this document, sir, it's a
25 document drafted it would appear by David Harland. Do you know
1 Mr. Harland?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And do you recognise the document?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. There is a number -- or are a number of acronyms used in the
6 distribution list. Could you tell us whether this is a document that you
7 and General Soubirou would have been privy to during your time in
9 A. This is something he would have read.
10 MS. BOLTON: May I go to page 2, please, in both English and
12 Q. Starting at the top of the page under the heading "Gorazde
13 crisis," it reads:
14 "At about 1500 yesterday (16494) Bosnian lines to the north of
15 Gorazde suddenly collapsed shortly after lines to the south-east of the
16 town were also ruptured.
17 "Advancing Serb forces overran an UNPROFOR observes post,
18 injuring two UN observers, one of them critically."
19 Skipping the next paragraph, it continues:
20 "Shortly after 1800 a local cease-fire was arranged to allow for
21 a helicopter evacuation of the wounded UN personnel. This was done but
22 the soldier died shortly after arriving in Sarajevo."
23 There's then a description at the bottom of the page about:
24 "Gorazde has been reasonably quiet for several days following a
25 second use of NATO airpower on Monday (11.4.94)."
1 Could you tell us what prompted the use of NATO airpower in April
2 of 1994 to the best of your knowledge?
3 A. With the collapse of the Gorazde pocket the concern was for the
4 civilians inside of Gorazde and prompted the UN to ask for NATO strikes
5 to keep -- to protect the civilians from what was coming in at them.
6 Q. And do you recall whether Gorazde had been declared a UN safe
7 area at that point in time?
8 A. To the best of my knowledge, it was.
9 Q. There's an indication on this page that General Mladic was
10 verbally warned that airpower would be used if the shelling did not stop
11 immediately. Later in the paragraph he says at 14.33 General Mladic was
12 warned again, at 15.08 tank opened fire again in Gorazde, and then
13 finally a fax is received from General Mladic assuring UNPROFOR that an
14 order had been passed to cease-fire and the fire later subsided and no
15 further action was taken.
16 How does that information compare with the information you
17 received when you were briefed on the situation?
18 A. It would be consistent with what de Bergeron and the French staff
19 were giving me when I got there on the ground and listening to the
20 updates received by General Soubirou but -- from his staff.
21 MS. BOLTON: May I have page 3, please, in English and page 4 in
23 Q. An indication on page 3 in English the third bullet point
24 indicates UN UNPROFOR personnel have been seized throughout
25 Serb-controlled territory. More than 150 UN personnel are in some way
1 restricted in their movements on Serb territory. And then at six bullet
2 point an indication that UNPROFOR has been blockaded in Sarajevo.
3 Again, how does that compare with the situation you encountered
4 when you arrived on the 17th of April, 1994?
5 A. It is consistent. When I arrived, the situation was particularly
6 grave with the actions inside of Gorazde focusing everyone's attention.
7 And commensurate with that is just the freezing of the situation
8 elsewhere. Particularly where I was in Sarajevo our freedom of movement
9 was severely restricted.
10 Q. And the fact that this was happening throughout Serb-controlled
11 territory, what did that suggest to you in terms of the level of command
12 that may have issued the instructions?
13 A. Because of the geographical dispersion and the similarities of
14 the activities throughout those areas, the Romanija Corps didn't control
15 all this area. It would -- it did indicate to us that General Mladic's
16 headquarters was controlling the operations and the control of movement
17 of the UN.
18 Q. Thank you. May I have this document marked as an exhibit,
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 10018 will be Exhibit P586.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 MS. BOLTON:
25 Q. I have one final document, sir, which is 65 ter 00113.
1 MS. BOLTON: Could the B/C/S version just be shown -- moved over
2 a little bit so we can see the left side of the page, please. Thank you.
3 Q. Just looking at the B/C/S version on the left side of the page
4 you'll see that this appears to be marked as a telegram. Looking at the
5 English version, it's document dated the 10th of April, 1994, issued by
6 the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, very urgent. It's
7 addressed to the commands of a number of corps including the
8 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the Drina Corps.
9 MS. BOLTON: If we could scroll down in the English version,
10 please, it reads:
11 "Based on the decision of the president of the Republika Srpska
12 and the commander of the GS VRS and in order to make measures for the
13 defence of Republika Srpska from the attacks of the NATO Air Force ..."
14 If we could move to page 2 in English only, please:
15 "I hereby order:"
16 Paragraph 2 -- sorry, paragraph 4:
17 "Immediately block all UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisation's
18 convoys and their teams which happen to be in the Republika Srpska
19 territory. Remove and secure the convoys and bring in the personnel and
20 secure them at a safe place. Do not treat them roughly in the process."
21 And could we turn to page 3 in English, please and to the last
22 page in B/C/S.
23 Q. And you'll notice that it is purported to be a document issued by
24 a commander Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic. Is the treatment accorded
25 humanitarian convoys and UN personnel that you were made aware of in
1 April of 1994 consistent with what was ordered in this document?
2 A. This document would verify, confirm the experience that we were
3 having on the ground and also indicate that the restriction of movement
4 by the UN and humanitarian aid was in violation of the terms why we were
6 MS. BOLTON: Could I ask that that be tendered as the next
7 document, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 00113 will be Exhibit P587.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P587 is admitted.
12 MS. BOLTON: That would conclude the Prosecution's time with the
13 witness, Your Honour. I had indicated that there are three exhibits to
14 be discussed, but I am content we do that after the witness has finished
15 testifying, if that's agreeable to the Court. These are the three
16 associated exhibits objected to by the Defence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's not entirely clear what you mean by do
18 that after the witness is testifying. Do you want to tender them from
19 the bar table or --
20 MS. BOLTON: No, I'm sorry. We would discuss it after he has
21 been cross-examined and re-examined so he doesn't sit here while we make
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. I didn't follow the numbers, which
24 are on the record.
25 Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to start the cross-examination?
1 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fraser, you'll now be cross-examined by
3 Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Mladic Defence team.
4 Please proceed.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
6 Q. Good day, sir, before I begin with my questions I'd like to
7 remind you that since we both speak English we need to work really hard
8 to have a pause between question and answer to permit the court reporter
9 and the translators to do their job. Is that understood, sir?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. In that case I'd like to begin. The first area that I'd like to
12 address is your consolidated statement which has been admitted as P576
13 and which I believe you still have a copy of in front of you. First of
14 all, sir, could you tell me: Did you draft this statement or was it
15 drafted for you by somebody else?
16 A. It came from my previous statements. I reviewed it many times
17 and made corrections before I signed it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fraser, that's not exactly an answer to the
19 question. The question was who drafted it and --
20 THE WITNESS: The Prosecution.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- prepared it.
22 THE WITNESS: Prepared it. They gave the draft to me which I
23 reviewed, amended, gave it back to them. They gave me back a revised
24 draft, and at the end I signed it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. The consolidated statement at pages 2 and 3 in the English, and I
3 believe also the B/C/S, has an index. Were these topics or groupings
4 generated by yourself or by the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. In this draft it was generated by the Prosecutor based on my very
6 first statement that I gave many years ago which I myself wrote out.
7 Q. When you say the statement -- the first statement that you gave
8 many years ago that you wrote out, would that be the statement in 1997,
9 if you recall?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. I note from the cover page of the consolidated statement that an
12 individual by the name of Marija Dow from the CAF was present. Am I
13 correct that this is a reference to the legal counsel for the
14 Canadian Armed Forces?
15 A. That person is Marla Dow, and she was a legal officer who was
16 just there to observe the proceedings.
17 Q. And I apologise. Was she there on behalf of the
18 Canadian Armed Forces; that is to say, is CAF an acronym for the Canadian
19 Armed Forces?
20 A. Yes, she was.
21 Q. Did Ms. Dow, the legal counsel from the Canadian Armed Forces,
22 intervene to direct any questions or direct any answers?
23 A. No, she did not.
24 Q. Did legal counsel from the Canadian Armed Forces intervene to
25 object to any question or answer which you provided to the OTP?
1 A. No, she did not.
2 Q. You indicated that the document was sent back with revisions and
3 that the OTP sent a new version back to you and I note that the statement
4 itself, the conversations took place in July, although the original copy
5 was signed in October. Was the legal counsel from the Canadian Armed
6 Forces involved in this revision process; that is to say, did it have to
7 be vetted through them?
8 A. She was part of the e-mail exchange, but she did not vet the
9 document. She did not approve the document.
10 Q. I would like to now move to the time period before you were
11 deployed to the former Yugoslavia. First of all, in your years of
12 training and education to become a member of the Canadian Armed Forces,
13 did you ever have a course of study with a focus on the structure or
14 doctrine of the Yugoslav People's Army or the Yugoslav All People's
15 Defence system?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one clarification on the
17 previous --
18 MR. IVETIC: Definitely.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- few answers.
20 You said, Mr. Fraser, that Ms. Dow was part of the e-mail
21 exchange. That is not entirely clear to me. Was it that she was copied
22 on the e-mails sent or did she actively participate in that e-mail
23 exchange so as to suggest changes or whatever? Did she play an active
24 role or was she just copied on everything?
25 THE WITNESS: She was -- she was my conduit to the Prosecution.
1 She played no role in modifying or advising me on the document. She was
2 strictly as an observer to report what happened to the Canadian Forces,
3 but she had no role in anything that I've written here.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. And she did not in any way suggest anything.
5 She was just copied on it and would have done with it but not sent an
6 e-mail, Have you not overlooked this, or, Isn't it true that Mr. Fraser
7 also said, or nothing of the kind.
8 THE WITNESS: She gave no counsel, no commentary.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, the question I had asked was I'd like to move to the time
13 period before you were deployed to the former Yugoslavia. In your years
14 of training and education to become a member of the Canadian
15 Armed Forces, did you ever have a course instructing or focusing on the
16 structure and/or doctrine of the Yugoslav People's Army or the
17 Yugoslav All People's Defence system?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And if we could focus now on the time period just before your
20 deployment to Yugoslavia. Did you have any courses or instruction at
21 that time relative to the structure or doctrine of the
22 Yugoslav People's Army, the Army of Republika Srpska, or the Armija BiH,
23 or the Croat Defence Union, the HVO?
24 A. I received no instruction other than the briefings I received
25 when I arrived in theatre.
1 Q. Let's deal first with the briefings that you indicated -- you
2 took part in in Zagreb. How long did those briefings last?
3 A. I recall probably two days.
4 Q. Can you tell me what topics were covered in those briefings?
5 A. The Canadian headquarters gave me general briefings on the
6 country, the state of situation on the ground, and general information on
7 the warring factions, plus what rules and regulations that I had to abide
8 by, both as a Canadian and as a member of the UN.
9 Q. And at the time of your first deployment to the former
10 Yugoslavia, were you able to speak or understand any of the local
11 languages of the former Yugoslavia?
12 A. Nothing other than the pleasant formalities of hello and
14 Q. With -- with respect to the briefing now that you had with
15 Mr. de Bergeron when you arrived in Sarajevo, first of all, am I correct
16 that it was two days worth of briefings with Mr. de Bergeron as well?
17 A. I think we had probably about three or four days of briefings
18 there and then that was direct one-on-one. In addition, I was briefed up
19 by the UN staff, so each of the directors would sit down with the
20 operations staff, the information staff, and the other branches to get up
21 to speed on what was going on. Plus there was a French aide-de-camp, a
22 Captain Deduc [phoen], who was also there and remained as the continuity
23 who also give me briefings on what was going on.
24 Q. I'd like to turn to 65 ter 1D457 briefly. And while we wait for
25 that, sir, I believe this would be the 1997 statement that both you and I
1 had discussed earlier. I see that the English is already up on the
2 screen. Does this cover sheet or cover page refresh your recollection or
3 can you clarify that this is the statement that you discussed earlier
4 that you wrote in 1997?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. And is that your signature at the bottom of the English original?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. I'd like to turn page 2 in both languages and I'd like to focus
9 on the second-to-last paragraph. And do you see there, sir, it says:
10 "I did not receive any briefings about my new posting in Bosnia
11 until after I got there. I had two days with Christian de Bergeron and
12 then he was gone."
13 Could you explain for me which version is true? You've mentioned
14 briefings before arriving to Bosnia --
15 A. No. What I said was when I got --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly reminded to observe the
17 pause between questions and answers. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may answer the question.
19 THE WITNESS: When I arrived in Zagreb, that's when I got the
20 briefings from the Canadian headquarters. So that's when I received the
21 briefings, when I got to Bosnia, not when I was in Canada. And then when
22 I got down into Sarajevo, that's when Bergeron -- you know, he and I
23 talked for those couple days, and I talked to the headquarters. That's
24 when I received the briefings. So I am consistent.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. I apologise. I misunderstood your reference to the Canadian
2 headquarters. I'd like to ask you with respect to the briefings that you
3 had with Mr. de Bergeron, did any of those briefings detail the normative
4 structures or doctrine of the JNA, the VRS, or the Armija BiH?
5 A. They did talk about the fact that I would be dealing with a corps
6 headquarters. There were brigades in around Sarajevo. They talked about
7 the Muslim Corps structure and the army structures in general terms.
8 Q. How long had your predecessor Mr. de Bergeron been in Sarajevo by
9 that point, if you know?
10 A. I believe he was there about a year.
11 Q. You say that you discussed army structures in "general terms."
12 Did any of the briefings entail a discussion or identification of the
13 specific locations within the city of Sarajevo where the Armija BiH had
14 troops situated?
15 A. That information existed in the headquarters. My focus was on
16 the headquarters of the two warring factions.
17 Q. Did any of your briefings with Mr. de Bergeron entail a
18 discussion or identification of military depots or storage facilities
19 that were located within the city of Sarajevo?
20 A. We talked about the weapon collecting points.
21 Q. Did you talk about weapons -- munitions depots or storage
22 facilities apart from the weapons collection points?
23 A. That I cannot remember.
24 Q. Would you agree with me that any such military depots or supply
25 storage facilities, apart from the weapons collection points, would
1 constitute legitimate military targets even if located in the depth of
2 territory behind the front lines in Sarajevo?
3 A. As a hypothetical question, yes.
4 Q. Do you recall if your briefings with Mr. de Bergeron included
5 discussions about the location of any military production factories in or
6 near the city limits of Sarajevo?
7 A. I -- I don't recall those discussions.
8 Q. Hypothetically speaking, would you agree that any such production
9 facilities or factories would likewise constitute legitimate targets even
10 if behind the front lines in the depth of territory in the city of
12 A. Hypothetically, yes.
13 Q. Did you feel that -- that at the end of your briefing with
14 Mr. de Bergeron you had sufficient information to fully perform all of
15 the duties required of you as MA for the sector commander?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I would now like to take some time to address portions of your
18 consolidated statement.
19 MR. IVETIC: So I would ask for P576 to be called up in e-court,
20 and if we can look at paragraph 32 of the same, which is page 11 in the
21 English and page 12 in the B/C/S.
22 Q. And here you identify a Major Milenko Indjic as being the conduit
23 between Generals Mladic and Tolimir and the corps commander and that:
24 "His job is to ensure that the corps commander were acting in
25 accordance with orders issued by the Main Staff."
1 First of all, did you at any time ever speak with General Mladic
2 or General Tolimir and have them explicitly tell you that Major Indjic
3 served such a function or role as you have described here?
4 A. I never had a conversation with Generals Tolimir or Mladic about
5 that. It was our observation based on what we experienced.
6 Q. Did either Generals Galic or Milosevic ever confirm for you the
7 role of Major Indjic to be as you have indicated in this paragraph of
8 your statement, paragraph 32?
9 A. I do recall that he was referred to as the LO.
10 Q. I thank you for that answer. Now could you answer my question.
11 Did either Generals Galic or Milosevic ever confirm for you the role of
12 Major Indjic to be as you have indicated in paragraph 32 of your
14 A. We never had that conversation.
15 Q. Did any officer of the VRS ever confirm for you the role of
16 Major Indjic to be what you have listed in paragraph 32?
17 A. I can't recall.
18 Q. Am I correct that the one difference between Major Indjic and the
19 other officers in the room was that he was fluent in English?
20 A. He -- yes, from -- from my memory, he was the only one who could
21 speak English.
22 Q. Do you permit the possibility that he was there precisely for his
23 knowledge of the English language, to act as a means of being able to
24 communicate more equally with the English-speaking international officers
25 who would be present for meetings?
1 A. He was used for that, but his role was larger than that.
2 Q. How many times were you present for meetings when Major Indjic
3 and General Mladic were both present where Major Indjic appeared to be
4 acting in the manner that you have described in paragraph 32?
5 A. I don't recall specifically with that question, because I
6 don't -- I don't recall.
7 Q. Fair enough. If we can turn to paragraph 35 of your statement.
8 This will be on page 12 of the English and page 13 of the Serbian. And
9 here -- here you state that Milosevic was adhering to the orders issued
10 by Mladic and that he understood that he served at the pleasure of
11 General Mladic, and if he did not do as Mladic wanted, he would be
12 replaced. Did you ever attend a meeting either in person or via
13 telephone to hear General Mladic make such a statement?
14 A. No. That was my inference based on meetings that I had attended
15 with my sector commander and the general.
16 Q. If you could clarify in your answer. You say "the general."
17 Which general are we talking about?
18 A. General Milosevic and General Soubirou or Gobillard later on.
19 Q. Am I correct that General Milosevic never once made a statement
20 to you indicating that he understood that he served at the pleasure of
21 General Mladic, and if he did not do as General Mladic wanted he would be
22 replaced as you have written in paragraph 35 of your statement?
23 A. He never said that. I inferred that from his actions.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at paragraph 27 of this same
25 consolidated statement. That would be at page 10 in the English and page
1 11 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. Here you mention the airport tunnel and the Igman road. First of
3 all, are you talking about both of these features when you indicate that
4 it was used by both civilian and ABiH personnel and was subject to
5 frequent shelling?
6 A. It was used by both.
7 Q. My question was which "it"? Are we talking about the Igman road
8 or the airport tunnel or both?
9 A. The Igman road and airport tunnel were used by both civilians and
10 ABiH soldiers.
11 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. We are
13 supposed to finish at quarter to 4.00.
14 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honours. We can take a break now.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Fraser, before we take a break, I'd like
16 to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in any other way
17 with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've
18 given already today or that is testimony still to be given. We'd like to
19 see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom. You may
20 follow the usher.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, are you on track at this moment as far
23 as time is concerned? It's a bit early, but -- to ask, but --
24 MR. IVETIC: Thus far I'm on track for the time I had allotted
25 for this witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your estimate was that you needed four and
2 a half hours, if I'm correct.
3 MR. IVETIC: I thought it was four hours, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Four hours.
5 MR. IVETIC: Four hours is what I was planning on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's how matters stand now.
7 Then we -- which means that most likely we need the whole of
8 tomorrow for this witness and then Friday we could continue with the
9 witness next in line.
10 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
11 6th of December, at 9.00 in the morning in this same Courtroom II.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.47 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day
14 of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.