1 Wednesday, 12 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 The witness may be escorted up till the door of the courtroom,
7 because then we'll go into closed session. Once he's there, if the usher
8 could inform us.
9 Meanwhile, I deal with a few -- but, first, let's --
10 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, good morning, Your Honours.
12 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 I'd like to briefly deal with two matters. First of all, I would
15 like to inform the parties that the Chamber has decided that there will
16 be three non-sitting weeks in Mladic in the spring. That will be the
17 week starting Monday, the 4th of March; the week starting the
18 25th of March; and the week of the 5th of April, so that the week before
19 and the week after Easter and this other week early in March, the
20 4th until the 8th.
21 Further, I'd like to be informed whether the parties have reached
22 agreement on the schedule of -- further schedule of this week.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I apologise, I didn't understand that
24 the Chamber asked us to inquire. The Chamber -- I think everyone was in
25 agreement that it was -- it would be an additional two hours. Yesterday
1 I spoke with Mr. Lukic and he said he would have no objection to sitting
2 an extra two hours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think I added to that that we needed a full
4 commitment of the parties, that this party would have until then and that
5 party would have until then, so that we do not at the end of the week
6 find ourselves in trouble having done 80 per cent of the second witness
7 of this week.
8 But I do understand that the extra hours are accepted and the
9 parties commit themselves to conclude the testimony of the two witnesses
10 within those -- that time allotted.
11 MR. GROOME: And, Your Honour, once the Chamber does render a
12 decision and tell us specific times we may sit, then I'll sit down with
13 Mr. Lukic or Mr. Stojanovic and come up with specific time frames for
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is agreed. I saw Mr. Ivetic nodding yes,
16 and yes and yes whatever we said, together with Mr. Stojanovic, so that
17 is double confirmation.
18 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into closed session.
20 [Closed session]
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 6159-6161 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Sir, I want to remind you again since we're in open session if
7 you feel an answer to any of my questions requires us to return to
8 private session to protect your identity, please do not hesitate to ask.
9 A. [In English] Yes.
10 Q. I would now like to ask you about the tunnel that the
11 Bosnian Muslim forces dug out and were using at or near the Butmir
12 airport. Are you familiar with such a tunnel, sir?
13 A. [Interpretation] I heard, and I heard about this tunnel that was
14 dug under the Sarajevo airport.
15 Q. We had another witness here, Mr. David Fraser, who at transcript
16 page 5824 said that the tunnel was pre-existing before he arrived in
17 Sarajevo. Can you tell us if you have knowledge or heard when this
18 tunnel was constructed by the Bosnian Muslim forces?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're supposed to first put a question
20 and then if there's any need, then to refer to other evidence but not to
21 introduce a matter by reference to another witness.
22 Please proceed.
23 But you may answer the question: Do you know when tunnel was
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We talked about a tunnel, or I
1 heard of the tunnel from my arrival in Sarajevo which means (redacted)
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour --
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to hear or have other knowledge of the
8 fact that UNPROFOR had an observation post 200 metres from the tunnel
9 entrance and that UN forces would traverse the airport and transit in
10 front of the tunnel entrance regularly?
11 A. I never learned and I never visited this tunnel, so I don't know
12 where it was exactly. But there were -- there were sites that were
13 presumed for the exit and entry thereof.
14 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the Bosnian Muslim army using this
15 tunnel to transport military supplies, weapons or ammunition into
17 A. These are rumours that were brought, but I was never a witness to
18 it personally.
19 Q. If such transport of weapons, military supplies or ammunition was
20 taking place, would it be -- would it have been considered by UNPROFOR a
21 violation of the various agreements that were in place at the time?
22 A. As far as I know, there was no resolution or the use of the
23 tunnel being precluded. Each party used the resources it had, in terms
24 of intelligence and technical means to support its forces. Those are the
25 rules of engagement in times of war.
1 Q. Yes, sir, I understand in times of war, but at this particular
2 time-period there were several agreements in place, including the
3 Cessation of Hostilities Agreement, the weapons exclusion zone agreement
4 and the weapons collection points agreement. Do you believe that those
5 agreements permitted the Bosnian Muslims to seek to improve a military
6 advantage within the city of Sarajevo?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could we go back to the level of facts
8 rather than a vague general notion about all kind of rules that did exist
9 and perhaps incidents and let's then find out whether the witness heard
10 about the incident, what exactly happened, what was the rule applicable
11 at that time, et cetera, rather than to stay in general notions.
12 MR. IVETIC: All right, Your Honours. I will then skip this --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well proceed as you deem appropriate.
14 MR. IVETIC: -- section and proceed to those various --
15 Q. In relation to the tunnel, did you have occasion to hear about
16 any of the activities of a Bosnian Muslim brigadier named Fikret that was
17 in command of the BiH forces around Butmir?
18 A. Yes, Fikret was one of the commanders of the ABiH units near
19 Butmir. He had been introduced as the man who was managing the passage,
20 or the passages, through the tunnel.
21 Q. Did you yourself have any dealings with such an individual
23 A. I met him on one occasion because one can't forget meeting --
24 such a meeting with Fikret. He was a huge man with a very strong
25 handshake. I met him once. It was during a meeting of the Presidency of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I remember he crushed my hand, but we exchanged --
2 we didn't exchange a single word.
3 Q. Did you have occasion to learn or become aware of any allegations
4 against this individual, this Fikret, for smuggling of black market items
5 into the city via the tunnel?
6 A. As I said, rumours had it that Fikret was in charge of the
7 passage, the passages, through the tunnel. This is what I heard
8 concerning his activities.
9 Q. Did you have occasion to learn that he was also behind the
10 concealed transport of fuel from the Igman location into the city of
11 Sarajevo by the army, BiH forces?
12 A. I have told you, we never controlled the tunnel directly. We
13 heard about it. We heard that people were going through the tunnel and
14 that equipment was transported through the tunnel, but we neither
15 controlled the entry points or the exit points of the tunnel.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Ivetic would like to know whether all the
17 rumours you talked about, whether they included concealed transport of
18 fuel from the Igman location, whether that specific subject was part of
19 the rumours you learned about.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we imagined that men,
21 ammunition, and perhaps fuel could go through this tunnel, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Was that a specific part of the rumours, or do you
23 say it was not excluded from such rumours, which is not exactly the same.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this was part of the rumours.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. If we can -- if I can ask you something about your statement -
4 that is P628 - but if we could please not broadcast the document to the
5 public as it is under seal. And I'd like to ask you about paragraph 41
6 of the same. Sir, in the French, that is going to be at page 15. It's
7 page 12 in the English. And page 12 in the B/C/S.
8 MR. IVETIC: First of all, does the witness have the hard copy?
9 MR. SHIN: If we could please --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin has a copy ready, I think.
11 MR. IVETIC: I thank my colleagues on the other side, and I have
12 no objection to the witness having it for the remainder of his testimony.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's okay.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Sir, again, I'd like to turn to page 41 of the same which is at
16 page 15 in the French, page 12 in the English, and page 12 in the Serbian
18 We have been talking about a Fikret or a Brigadier Fikret. Is
19 that the same individual who you are describing in paragraph 41 as the
20 Bosniak who only received orders from the president?
21 A. Yes, I mentioned it earlier today, since I met Fikret
22 specifically at the Presidency meeting in Sarajevo, and he had the
23 reputation within the 1st Corps of the Bosnian Muslims of being a very
24 independent and undisciplined man and he only referred to the Presidency
25 or reported to the Presidency.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek clarification of this specific line in
2 the French language. It reads and I quote the French:
3 [Interpretation] "... was a Bosniak who only received orders from
4 the Presidency."
5 [In English] That is how it reads in French. Did you want to
6 express that he would only accept orders if they came from the president,
7 or that he only received orders from the president? What is it you
8 wanted to express there?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This brigadier - I think that was
10 his rank - did certainly have a personal relation to the Presidency of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And as regarded the commander of his corps, I heard
12 his corps commander complain about the fact that his subordinate was very
13 undisciplined because he had a tendency of only reporting back to the
15 I hope I have clarified what is stated in my statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. And if I can ask you to clarify one other factor, sir. The
19 final, last paragraph of item 41 in your statement is still talking about
20 this individual, I believe. It says:
21 "He was a former member of the presidential body-guard who
22 engaged in substantial provocations against UNPROFOR."
23 First of all, can you confirm that this is again Fikret that
24 we're talking about?
25 A. Yes. Since he commanded the Butmir Brigade or the
1 Butmir Battalion, which ran along the airport and from the positions that
2 were held by Fikret's soldiers, we often got sniping from the airport.
3 He was the one who fired at Serb positions because, on the other side in
4 Ilidza, he was in contact with the Bosnian Serb forces. So he was an
5 extremely active man on the ground.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd now like to turn to paragraph 90 of this
7 statement. And, again, please can we not broadcast this to the public.
8 And this, sir, will be on page 32 in the French, page 24 in the English,
9 and page 23 in the Serb. And herein, you are talking about the total
10 exclusion zone and the weapons collections points being related. And I'd
11 like to ask you, sir, first of all, do you feel that you were privy to
12 the terms of the agreements that established both the weapons collections
13 points and the temporary exclusion zone?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
15 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, I would just remind all parties that we
16 are in open session still.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are, and we're supposed to be as long as ...
18 MR. SHIN: [Microphone not activated] Yes, sorry just bearing in
19 mind the contents at paragraph 90 and the question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: This is a forewarning that we might enter --
21 MR. SHIN: Yes, indeed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- dangerous waters.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic, and please keep it in
25 the back of your mind.
1 MR. IVETIC: I would be happy to go into
2 [overlapping speakers] --
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers].
4 MR. IVETIC: -- private session if it is easier to avoid any
5 problems for the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not know what your questions will be and
7 I do not know what the answers will be, but if you think it wise, we'll
8 do it.
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, we should.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 6170-6173 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 Q. Sir --
21 MR. IVETIC: First of all, Your Honours, I'd like to tender this
22 document as the next available exhibit number.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 08139 will be Exhibit D110.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D110 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Sir, we see here Mr. Yasushi Akashi's signature along with that
3 of Mr. Karadzic. At this time, was Mr. Akashi authorised to enter into
4 agreements binding upon UNPROFOR?
5 A. In my opinion, Mr. Akashi was the Special Representative of the
6 Secretary-General, and he had full authority to reach agreements with the
7 Bosnian Serb authorities, or with the Bosnian Muslim political
9 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that this agreement that we have on
10 our screen between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Karadzic also contained an
11 additional protocol entered into by Mr. Akashi and Mr. Karadzic which
12 foresaw the right of the Serbs to retrieve weapons from these weapons
13 collections points and act in self-defence in the event of an attack by
14 the Bosnian Muslim side that UNPROFOR is not able to prevent or stop
16 A. I don't at all agree with your interpretation. There was never
17 an additional agreement or protocol signed by UNPROFOR. I know very well
18 what you are referring to. There was a meeting that was held on the
19 following day, on the 19th of February, and during that meeting, the
20 Bosnian Serb authorities suggested that there would be an additional
21 agreement, stating that they would have the right to use heavy weapons in
22 order to respond to an attack. This protocol was never signed by
23 UNPROFOR, but I believe that the Bosnian Serbs were under the impression
24 that they did have this right. However, this was never accepted.
25 So let me repeat what I have said. There is no additional
1 agreement or protocol. There is only this document of the
2 18th of February.
3 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that the Bosnian Serbs, on several
4 occasions subsequent to February 1994, complained of Bosnian Muslim
5 attacks and sought from UNPROFOR or threatened UNPROFOR that they would
6 take back their weapons if UNPROFOR did not make the Muslim attacks stop?
7 A. I fully agree with that. Almost every day the Bosnian Serbs
8 complained and said that the agreement had been violated by the Muslims,
9 and they threatened to take back the heavy weapons. (redacted)
13 Q. Would you --
14 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Would you agree that such requests on the part of the Serbs were
19 especially strong in -- from March 1994 and all the way through August of
20 1994, when the Muslims began an offensive around Visoko, Olovo, Kladanj,
21 near the northern edge of the temporary exclusion zone?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin.
23 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, just in light of the potential direction
24 of the questions, I would note again that we are in open session and
25 remind the parties --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
2 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 6178-6201 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 6203-6235 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 In relation to your report, Mr. Groome, on how the time would be
19 divided among the parties for the coming days, you did not mention any
20 re-direct, but I take it that you have considered that to be included and
21 even perhaps a few questions by the Bench.
22 MR. GROOME: Mr. Shin estimates approximately ten minutes now. I
23 think there will be no problem fitting it all in.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. GROOME: Just, Your Honours, to express the Prosecution's
1 appreciation for the Chamber to have given consideration and made these
2 special arrangements.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One last question, Mr. Ivetic. In relation to
4 the regular combat report of the 21st of September where we looked at
5 page 1, page 2, and page 3, your question which followed - I'm referring
6 you to page 71, line 14 - you asked whether there was any information --
7 Muslim forces firing from artillery from within the exclusion zone not
8 only upon VRS positions but also upon Serb settlements, Serb civilian
10 It was not entirely clear to me in what way that related. Was
11 that in relation to the reference to Mrkovici or was it not in the
12 document you had drawn our attention to? Was it an open question?
13 MR. IVETIC: It -- indeed the document mentioned the fired upon
14 VRS positions and settlements which would be then of civilian areas, and
15 Mrkovici was also a civilian area.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I had difficulties in finding it. But if you would
17 assist me. What page, so I'm able to better -- I think you took us to
18 page 1 and to page 3, the conclusion under number 8. Could you tell me
19 where --
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours. It's on page 2.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Page 2.
22 MR. IVETIC: We have the discussion that they fire artillery
23 pieces with caliber larger than 12.7 mm from the exclusion zone on our
24 positions and settlements also in the exclusion zone --
25 JUDGE ORIE: We are in what paragraph. Let me see.
1 MR. IVETIC: I, unfortunately, don't have the document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have it in front of me. Because we were a bit
3 confused by you taking us to page 2, then you were reading from page 1.
4 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. It should be on page 1. I'm still
5 using the same notes. It should be the selection on page 1 and then the
6 selection on page 3 so the part on page 1 that's talking about any
7 agreements with Muslim forces or warnings by General Rose are
8 pointless --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I see. Yes, yes.
10 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: I see reference to our positions and settlements
12 that is further undefined. But that is what you refer to.
13 MR. IVETIC: Correct. And then on page 3, there is a reference
14 to Mrkovici, which I think Your Honour had already mentioned.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although that is a reference to the Mrkovici
16 sector, not Mrkovici specifically as a settlement. That's what it says:
17 "They fired mortars and PAT on the Mrkovici sectors from the area
18 in Sarajevo city that is under Muslim control."
19 That's what I read in paragraph 8 on page 3.
20 MR. IVETIC: And if we can do ... also paragraph 1 references
21 several other civilian villages that were hit. The third paragraph of
22 paragraph 1 which I believe was on the prior page. I apologise the
23 screen is not --
24 JUDGE ORIE: You draw our attention to the third paragraph where
25 we see from where they were fired.
1 MR. IVETIC: The third paragraph ... and it mentions Cekrcici
2 settlement from Kula Banjer and Gornji Kopaci.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
4 MR. IVETIC: And they fired on Kuta village using a PAT.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you will understand that it's not easy for
6 us to find immediately in this document amongst many other documents what
7 your reference was to -- we'll have a look at it.
8 We will adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow,
9 Thursday, the 13th of December, at 12.40 - that's 20 minutes to 1.00 - in
10 this same courtroom, II.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.17 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of
13 December, 2012, at 12.40 p.m.