1 Friday, 14 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 8.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: A good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom, once we have
11 turned into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 6358-6369 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3. That's two pages
8 from the one we have on our screen now.
9 Q. Sir, what we see here is that on the 19th of January, 1993,
10 General Morillon is lodging a protest with President Izetbegovic for the
11 fact that his forces were shelling the airport. We can see that in
12 paragraph 1.
13 Do you remember the incident which happened at the time you were
14 in Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes, it rings a bell. I don't remember it precisely, but I know
16 that shortly afterwards there was a more serious incident, and a French
17 soldier was killed and one soldier was seriously wounded as a result of
18 the fire coming from the same region, Butmir and Hrasnica. But I can't
19 exactly remember this incident, but I'm not at all surprised by it.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender the document
22 into evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D512 receives number D122,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up the gentleman's
3 statement in e-court again, but may it not be broadcast. 28598, that's
4 the 65 ter number. Can we have page 17, paragraph 1, of the English
5 version in e-court. The English version, 16 to 17, paragraph 1; and the
6 B/C/S version is page 16, paragraph 1.
7 Q. Here, you speak of the Serbs in the UN, and you say that the
8 parties that signed the agreements stated that the population -- that
9 the -- stated that the airport was not to become a port of exit for the
10 population of Sarajevo.
11 Let me ask you this: The longer sides of the airport were under
12 the control of the Bosnian Muslims; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. The Bosnian Serb army controlled both ends
14 of the airport, given that the airport itself was controlled by UNPROFOR.
15 Q. The Serbs did not allow the members of the 1st Corps to exit
16 Sarajevo. They kept them encircled; is that right?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any -- is there any dispute [Microphone not
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has great concerns about
21 relevance and probative value of the evidence you are eliciting at this
23 MR. LUKIC: No, Your Honour. Excuse me. We have -- we have
24 points of the statement of the gentleman who testifies about the airport,
25 about the bombing of the airport, killing of people while crossing the
1 airport, so we have to establish what actually surrounded those firings
2 and killings.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Your last question was the Serbs did not allow the
4 member of the 1st Corps to exit Sarajevo. Is there any dispute about
6 MS. BOLTON: [Microphone not activated]
7 JUDGE ORIE: There's no dispute about that, Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And we earlier reached a level where we really had
10 some concerns as to what the testimony of the witness would add to what
11 the documents or his statement already say.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] During your term in Sarajevo, did you come by
15 information that the Serbs were interested in having the civilians leave
16 the town?
17 A. The Serbs were concerned by the fact that the civilians should be
18 able to leave the city because that meant that if they were able to leave
19 the city, that meant that the town was not entirely besieged and that the
20 Bosnian Serb forces intended to surround Sarajevo and not let any exit
21 routes. We were also concerned by the fact that it was impossible to use
22 the airport to get to the positions which were located at both ends of
23 the airport which meant that they had to move about at some distance to
24 be able to reach their positions which were at both ends of the airport.
25 So they were concerned by the movement of civilians that were
1 moving about in the territory they controlled.
2 Q. Is it true that the civilians were not able to try to cross the
3 runway without having the appropriate documentation issued by the Muslim
4 authorities in Sarajevo?
5 A. Yes, we were aware of the fact that on a large avenue, which runs
6 parallel to the airport in the Dobrinja area, the Bosnian Muslim army had
7 set up check-points to check that those people who wished to leave
8 Sarajevo had the adequate permission to do so. I had direct evidence of
9 this at a time when there were the clashes between the Bosnian Croatians
10 and Bosnian Muslims. I was in contact with the Croatian brigade in
11 Sarajevo which mentioned this issue to me. They stated they could not
12 leave Sarajevo because they were stopped by the Bosnian Muslims, who
13 were, in fact, controlling the passage through the airport.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now call up exhibit --
15 65 ter 09380 in e-court. This is an agreement, the agreement on the
16 re-opening of the Sarajevo airport for humanitarian purposes.
17 Q. Let me ask you first if you were aware of the existence of this
19 A. No, I have never seen this document. I see it for the first time
20 today. I knew that this agreement had been implemented after the visit
21 of the president of the French republic on the 28th of June, 1992. It is
22 then that the Bosnian Serb forces positioned at the airport accepted to
23 leave under the condition that the UNPROFOR forces were to replace them
25 Q. We need item 6 of the agreement. Item 6 reads:
1 "UNPROFOR will control all incoming personnel, aid, cargo, and
2 other items to ensure that no war-like materials are imported and that
3 the airport's opening is not otherwise abused in any way."
4 Did you know that UNPROFOR was duty-bound to prevent anyone from
5 moving about the airport without UNPROFOR's authorisation to do so?
6 A. Yes, that is right. This is what we did every night. We
7 intercepted those people who wanted to cross the airport, either one way
8 or the other, and on one -- we did on several occasions seize a number of
9 radio sets, ammunition, and there were foreign forces there sometimes who
10 had nothing to do there in Bosnia-Herzegovina other than providing
11 support to the Bosnian Muslim army. This is what we would called
12 Jihadists, or freedom fighters.
13 Q. Among the people crossing the airport, there were quite a few
14 soldiers, be they in uniform or in civilian clothes; is that right?
15 A. I believe that most of the staff was dressed in plain clothes.
16 Some were, undoubtedly, military personnel, because when we stop these
17 people, they had on them laissez-passer permission to go to Mount Igman
18 to have a rest or go and visit their families. We realised that these
19 people crossed more frequently towards the end of the week. This is a
20 well-known phenomenon, i.e., people resting over the weekend which seemed
21 to apply to it the area of Sarajevo. So some people seemed to leave
22 Sarajevo over the weekend and to return on Monday morning.
23 Q. When you say "people going away at the weekend," do you mean
24 those who were combatants in Sarajevo would actually leave Sarajevo at
25 the weekend because they resided elsewhere?
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ... we had no intelligence on
2 the question. We didn't interrogate them. We just brought them back to
3 where they had left from, and we interpreted it this way, but some
4 families tried to get through also.
5 Q. In the groups that were crossing the runway, one could not really
6 make distinction between the various people, especially because most of
7 them happened at night; right?
8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... was only done at night when
9 air traffic was stopped.
10 Q. The groups that were crossing the airport at night, they were, as
11 you say yourself, most of them in civilian clothes, including soldiers.
12 One could not tell who -- one could not tell a soldier from a civilian,
13 and the groups were, therefore, for the most part, mixed. Civilians and
14 soldiers crossing the runway together; is that right?
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's three questions --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic. Could we --
18 MR. LUKIC: I'll put one question, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is it true that these groups were mixed?
20 Meaning that they included soldiers and civilians that crossed the
21 airport at night.
22 A. Yes, indeed. People were in mixed groups. What I realised is
23 that they were not in such mixed group. What I saw, and I saw this
24 looking at the wounded who were treated in our military hospital and who
25 returned at night, I never saw any grown-up men. So the way in which
1 they crossed the airport was perhaps different. But this is mere
2 speculation. Overall, these must have been mixed groups. The difference
3 was essentially the age factor, because any grown-up man was of course
4 potentially a soldier. We are not talking about elderly men.
5 Q. Is it also true that the access to the airport on the both sides
6 was controlled by the Muslim forces, the ABiH?
7 A. I mentioned the Dobrinja mechanism. Inside Dobrinja -- that
8 applied inside Dobrinja. I assume this applied also outside, in Butmir
9 and Hrasnica.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask for one clarification.
11 In your last -- in your longer answer, you said, Mr. Witness, I
12 quote line 12 on page 19:
13 "People were in mixed groups. What I realised is that they were
14 not in such mixed groups --" a "group."
15 And a little bit later you say:
16 "Overall, these must have been mixed groups."
17 There seems to be, at least in the record, a contradiction. Were
18 they in mixed groups or were they not in mixed groups?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that they were mixed
20 overall. What I noticed among the wounded people whom we were treating
21 that there were practically no grown-up men. So whether, overall,
22 everybody crossed at the same time, I don't know if there was a
23 particular route for the military in civilian clothes or for the
24 families. That is something that we have never noticed.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.
2 MR. LUKIC: It's time for the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes.
4 Could the witness -- once we are in closed session, could the
5 witness then follow the usher.
6 [Closed session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look, page 16 in e-court,
11 in the English version; in the French, the e-court page marked in red,
12 our page 17, paragraph 1; and, in the B/C/S version, it's also page 17,
13 paragraph 1.
14 Q. Sir, there you say:
15 "The Bosniaks controlled access to the airport, and from the
16 beginning they used it in order to bring in and send out weapons,
17 ammunition, and manpower on both sides. The Serbs did not accept that
18 and every evening they would open indiscriminate fire from the eastern
19 side of the airport, shelling it as people were passing by."
20 Sir, my question to you is this: Is it true that the UNPROFOR
21 had to prevent --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- I think in English we should move to the next
23 page. Because there are two paragraph 1s on this page, Mr. Lukic, I take
24 it you wanted to select the second one and we now moved to the next page.
25 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Did UNPROFOR have to prevent the dispatch and delivery of
4 weapons, ammunition which the Muslims were carrying out across the
6 A. Yes. And this is in line with the agreement that you showed us
7 earlier on, the agreement dated June the 1st, 1992.
8 Q. Thank you. We established that, in order to get to the runway,
9 in order to attempt to get across, one needed to get the papers from the
10 Muslim authorities. At that time, did you notice that, among the people
11 who were crossing the runway, those who received a permit to leave town,
12 there were any Serbs? Did you have information to that effect?
13 A. No, we had no idea about the citizenship of the people who
14 crossed the airport. I told you that I realised later on that Croats
15 also crossed the airport. But as far as Serbs are concerned, I do not
17 Q. Could we now please, once again, look at a part of your
18 statement. We need the same paragraph again that we already talked
19 about, in which you state:
20 "Most were men. Some even had permits, but unfortunately were
21 with women, children and old people, who made up a third of the people.
22 You cannot really say that the people were leaving Sarajevo because they
23 were moving in both directions."
24 My question is this: Did UNPROFOR help these people to cross the
25 runway or did it just permit that tacitly.
1 A. While I was there, I knew that they did not permit people
2 crossing, but since their troops there were in a limited number, they
3 could not control the whole airport area. But in any case they did not
4 help crossing the airport. They did help them to bring them back to that
5 point of departure as they had been instructed to do, and if they were
6 injured, they brought them to the hospital, which was located at the PTT
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I read in the statement:
9 "The UN troops tried to enforce the agreement. They picked the
10 people up and took them back to where they had come from ..."
11 That is an answer to the question you did put to the witness, and
12 now the witness repeated some other elements of his answer as well. If
13 you want to elicit any further evidence, put focussed questions to the
14 witness, please.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we would need to go into private
16 session briefly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 6381-6382 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at statement P640 once
15 again, please, but it should not be broadcast publicly. We need page 18
16 in the French version - this is the e-court page - paragraph 2; English
17 version, it's page 17, paragraph 2; and the B/C/S version also is
18 page 17, and then moving to page 18, also paragraph 2.
19 Q. There, you say:
20 "Every night, about 1.000 people crossed. And since so many
21 people would be killed or wounded, I decided to put an end to the
22 massacre, and I summoned the three sides. I proposed to them that I
23 would transport the women, children and elderly in UNPROFOR vehicles
24 every evening after the air-lift had finished. I thought that it was not
25 up to me to take care of the men who were all soldiers. (redacted)
8 [Private session]
11 Page 6385 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In this paragraph, you talk about Serb shelling when 2 .400
24 shells were fired and eight people were killed, as you say.
25 In the paragraph, you say the following:
1 "I recall that the shelling had abated somewhat but that was
2 because the Serbs had achieved their goal which was to stop a Bosnian
3 attack designed to cut their main resupply line along the Pale road."
4 My question is this: At that time, did the Muslim artillery
5 support the infantry in its efforts to cut the Serb supply line; do you
6 know anything about that?
7 A. According to the reports that were made at the time, there were
8 shots observed, fired from the Bosniak lines. So this could have been
9 support for their infantry attack.
10 Q. This is an attack by the 10th Bosnian Muslim -- Mountain Brigade,
11 which was located near the cemetery. You do know that the staff of the
12 10th Brigade was located in the old town at Stari Grad, close to the
13 Egyptian Battalion?
14 A. Yes, I mentioned this yesterday.
15 Q. One element of this brigade was an anti-sabotage detachment; do
16 you know about this?
17 A. No. No, I'm not really familiar with that.
18 Q. You don't know either where the anti-sabotage detachment was
19 located at the time; that it was in Stari Grad, in fact.
20 A. I wasn't aware of its existence, and, naturally, I didn't know
21 where it was positioned either.
22 Q. When you speak of the 2.400 shells, some 2.000 shells landed on
23 the Muslim positions close to the confrontation line; right?
24 A. I would have to see the daily sitrep in order to confirm those
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case, we will have to go back
2 into private session briefly. And can we call up 9973 in e-court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 6389-6391 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D508 in e-court.
1 Q. You will see that this is a regular combat report, the situation
2 as at 1800 hours, which the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command sent to the
3 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 Nowhere in this report is there mention of shelling having taken
5 place in Sarajevo. We can look at page 2, and you will see that the
6 shelling of the town of Sarajevo is not mentioned anywhere; whereas, some
7 other activity is. Rather than spend too much time on it, let me ask you
8 this: In this report, and we will see the report of the Bosnian side
9 later, it is not stated that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps units shelled
10 Stari Grad, in that case would you allow for the possibility that
11 somebody else might have shelled Stari Grad?
12 A. Well, I would make two comments.
13 There were reports that might have been drafted before 1800 hours
14 since the shelling of the old town, if I remember correctly, took place
15 in the morning.
16 Second comment. If this report covers all the activities that
17 unfolded throughout the day I'm very surprised that the attack by the
18 110th Mountain Brigade in the direction of Lukavica was not mentioned.
19 So I call into question the validity of this report or the time reported
20 on during the day.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
22 10th Mountain Brigade.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In your view, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command misrepresented
25 the situation on the ground to the Main Staff of the
1 Army of Republika Srpska.
2 MS. BOLTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
4 MS. BOLTON: I think that is misstating the evidence the witness
5 has given. What he said is he calls into question the validity of this
6 report -- I'm sorry. Actually, I guess validity has more than one
8 I withdraw my objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Objection withdrawn.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, is it your position that the command of the
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps misreported the situation to the Main Staff of
14 the Army of Republika Srpska?
15 A. I repeat what I have already said. Either this report covers all
16 the activities that unfolded 24 hours before the 21st, and, in that case,
17 to my mind, it is erroneous because this violent attack by the opposing
18 party is not mentioned either, or it only covers the end of the day, in
19 which case the content is right because all activities had seized by the
20 end of the day.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, let's stick to the facts. The witness
22 told us what he observed, a meeting he had, et cetera. We've looked at
23 certain documents. The fact apparently is, although I have not been able
24 to read the whole of the document that it's not mentioned in this
25 document. That's it. If the witness would have any specific knowledge
1 about whether it was left out intentionally, but he already stated he has
2 not, then we'd hear from him. Otherwise, let's stick to the facts and
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Now we'll need 1D509.
5 Q. [Interpretation] This is a document issued by the 1st Corps of
6 the armed forces, the Muslim armed forces in Sarajevo, the same date, the
7 21st of March, 1993. Time of receipt: 2304.
8 The first paragraph of this document makes mention of what the
9 Bosnian forces reported as to the positions that the Serbian artillery --
10 artillery fired upon. It fired upon the positions of the
11 9th Mountain Brigade, 4th Motorised Brigade, that the area of Rogoj was
12 shelled, that a tank was spotted in the area of Matici, and that it
13 opened fire on the Serb positions at Pale. The Serb forces are being
14 referred to here as the Chetnik forces. You do understand that?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Do you see that there is no mention of the shelling here, the
17 shelling that you spoke about?
18 A. Yes. But I would like to remark that this comes from the command
19 of the operations group on Mount Igman. This document does not come from
20 people in town and is addressed to the Command of the 1st Corps. So it
21 is understandable that they're only interested in what concerned them
22 directly, i.e., the area of the airport. I think it is important to read
23 military documents properly.
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. We'll move on.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. However, in this same document, we can see that the artillery
4 fire at Dobrinja and Butmir is also being reported.
5 What makes you think that the operational group at Igman should
6 not be reporting on the events in town?
7 A. Because it was not part of its area of responsibility, whereas
8 Butmir and Dobrinja concerned it directly. And I believe from
9 Mount Igman, they could use heavy artillery pieces that they had in that
10 area. We discuss this at great length when we talked about the
11 dismantling of the artillery and Fusiliers Brigade. I believe that his
12 concerned them directly since they could then fire at both those areas in
13 Sarajevo; whereas the old city of Sarajevo, the centre of the town, had
14 nothing do with them because it was out of the range of their firing.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're always looking at the clock, you
16 say. I'm as well, at this moment.
17 We take a break of 20 minutes. We first turn into closed session
18 so that the witness can leave the courtroom.
19 [Closed session]
11 Page 6397 redacted. Closed session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Without this being broadcast
8 publicly, can we again have P640 in e-court, please.
9 Q. Witness, in the French version, the e-court page is 21,
10 paragraph 1; the English version, also -- actually, it's page 20,
11 paragraph 1; and the B/C/S version is page 21, paragraph 1.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, we need page 20 in the
13 B/C/S version, paragraph 1, in -- on -- on that page.
14 Q. Now we are going to discuss the shelling of Dobrinja on the
15 1st of June, 1993, and this is under the heading of June 1993.
16 A part of Dobrinja was held by the Muslim forces. On the
17 1st of June, two mortar shells exploded there. Before we go into the
18 gist of this topic, I wanted to ask you if you knew which units of the
19 Muslim forces were located in Dobrinja.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that Dobrinja was a highly
22 militarised zone?
23 A. Yes. Because it was very close to the front line. I think that
24 it was a brigade section. I don't remember the number of the brigade.
25 Q. First, I wanted to show you a document. It's 1D501. We will see
1 the English version soon.
2 This is a regular combat report with the status at 1700 hours.
3 This is a document of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command. Once again,
4 the report is being submitted to the Main Staff of Republika Srpska for
5 the 1st of June, 1993, which we are interested in at the moment.
6 Now that we know what the document is, we need to look at
7 paragraph 8. In the B/C/S version, it's the next page; and in the
8 English version, I think that it's page 3.
9 Under "conclusion," it states:
10 "The corps forces completely respected the order on the
11 cease-fire. There was no response to enemy provocations."
12 It can be concluded on the basis of this document that the Serb
13 forces did not fire at all that day. We need to establish this in order
14 to be able to analyse a document on the investigation that was carried
15 out into this incident.
16 First, let me ask you this: The shells that did hit on this
17 occasion struck very close to the confrontation line because between the
18 fall of the shell and the lines --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I read that you said:
20 "It can be concluded on the basis of this document that the Serb
21 forces did not fire at all that day."
22 That cannot be concluded. That is what the document says that
23 that was the case.
24 MR. LUKIC: Based on this document, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's of course not -- it's not based on
1 this document. It's what the document says.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: The document does mention that there was no firing
4 or doesn't mention that there was firing. Could be both. I have not
5 looked at it in detail. But that's it. So we cannot conclude anything
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We only can conclude what the document says true or
9 not. Yes. If that is clear, then you may proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted this as a
11 starting point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to come back to my
15 Q. The shell, or the shells that are referred to here, struck very
16 close to the confrontation line between -- because from the place where
17 the shells landed to the line of separation where the Muslim forces were,
18 there was only one single building that stood there between the -- those
19 two points.
20 A. I agree with you.
21 MR. LUKIC: Please bear with me one moment, Your Honours.
22 [Interpretation] We should now look at document 9939 in e-court,
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before you continue, would you agree with
25 me that your observation, that there was only one building already
1 suggests that there was a direction from where the fire came. Because
2 confrontation lines were around Dobrinja, isn't it?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Confrontation line is around --
4 JUDGE ORIE: So it depends on which confrontation line you choose
5 to say that there was only one building between, the closest one.
6 MR. LUKIC: It was somehow encircled area, so I think from
7 [overlapping speakers].
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] Confrontation lines all
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, a report was drafted about the investigation into this
15 incident, and we can see in this report, on page 2 -- we don't need to
16 look at the crater analysis. We need page 2 of the report dated the
17 7th of July. Crater analysis is a separate document. It's part of the
18 document, but it's a document that follows this other document. The way
19 we have the document, the order in which we have it, this should be on
20 page 2, what we're looking for.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we're working with e-court so find the
22 right page in e-court.
23 MR. LUKIC: It's page number 2.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's page number 2 in e-court.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, please know that this document has
1 four B/C/S translations attached, so I'm not certain which one you are
2 referring to.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I am --
4 THE REGISTRAR: Maybe that caused the trouble.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Page 2 in e-court in the English start with 1, "On
6 the 28th of June 1993 ..."
7 That's what we have in front of us. Is that what you want to
8 look at, Mr. Lukic?
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. And we need that only in B/C/S as
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's then look at how it is in B/C/S. No, we
12 have four translations, I see.
13 Ms. Bolton.
14 MS. BOLTON: I was just going to indicate that we had actually
15 been using P644 which is 9939A, which is a smaller subset of the
16 original, I think, 66-page document in English. That's the document we
17 were using yesterday and it more closely matches, I think, the B/C/S
18 version. I don't know if that assists my friend.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I have on the ... I think we have both
20 versions now --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- on the screen.
23 Let's proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. On page 2 of the report, in paragraph 1, it can be seen that the
1 persons who drafted the report were tasked to conduct the investigation
2 on the 28th of June, which means that it was 27 days after the explosion.
3 A. If you can count, yes, the total is 27.
4 Q. Now we need to look at page 4 in the Serbian, paragraph 7; and
5 page 5 in the English, paragraph 7.
6 It can be seen from this paragraph that the investigators did not
7 go to the scene because it is located on the front line or close to the
8 front line. At that time, or later, did you know about this?
9 A. Maybe combat activity started again in this area, but I don't
10 think that it would have prevented them from going on-site. I, myself,
11 went there without any problem.
12 Q. We need to look at page 2 of the report again, paragraph 2,
13 please. We're returning to the beginning of the document.
14 We can see in this paragraph that those who conducted the
15 analysis did not actually conduct the crater analysis but they got this
16 analysis from UNPROFOR, and the UNPROFOR got it from some other UN staff
17 who are not mentioned here.
18 Do you know who these other UN personnel is who actually carried
19 out the crater analysis?
20 A. Are we in closed session now?
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are not.
22 Then we can move into private session.
23 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6 in the
17 English version, paragraph 14; and page 5 in the B/C/S version,
18 paragraph 14.
19 Q. We can see in this paragraph that the people who did the analysis
20 had the location where the match was played indicated on the map by
21 someone else, i.e., the location where these people were hit by the
23 They themselves didn't know where the actual incident took place;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Who didn't know? The investigators? Is that the meaning of your
2 Yes. They had already received reports, I believe, and as they
3 didn't want to go to the site apparently, the location of the site was
4 shown to them on a map.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 2,
6 paragraph 2, item (f) in both versions.
7 Q. It is noted here that:
8 "Due to the fact that that both rounds impacted into a macadam
9 surface, the angle of descent and range cannot be determined ..."
10 According to you, do these facts have any effect on the precision
11 of the findings?
12 A. In this case, it's important to determine the origin of these
13 mortar shells. And, as the document shows, later, given the surface that
14 the shells hit, this allowed one to determine the distance from which the
15 shells may have been fired and then to determine the positions, the
16 alleged positions, of the mortars that may have fired these shells.
17 Q. The evaluations in the findings were made on the basis of 81- and
18 120-millimetre shells. So the exact calibre of the shell that exploded
19 was not known, so that is why, in the calculations, these two calibres
20 were taken to work with.
21 A. The craters did not allow one to know what kind of shell had been
22 fired. All we could know was that it was inferior to 120 millimetres and
23 that the shell had been fired from a mortar.
24 Q. And the findings don't show why a 60-millimetre shell was ruled
25 out as an option, even though the calibre was not established.
1 Can we now look at page 6 in English, paragraph 17, item (c); in
2 the B/C/S version, it's page 6, paragraph 17, also item (c).
3 This refers to a statement by Dinko Bakal who said that he first
4 thought that it was an 82-millimetre shell but later he determined that
5 it was, in fact, a 60-millimetre-calibre shell.
6 In the English, we need to look at paragraph (g) on the next
7 page, please.
8 MR. LUKIC: Now I have wrong ...
9 [Interpretation] We definitely do have the document, but I'm not
10 able to locate it right now, where he said that, according to him, it was
11 the army that established the calibre and brought in the fragments which
12 indicated that it was a 60-millimetre-calibre shell.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Try to resolve the problem, Mr. Lukic. I'll see
14 whether I can assist you in any way, but ...
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. It's all right. I was
16 puzzled by the first part of the sentence. It is, in fact, item (g)
17 which states that the calibre of shells was determined by soldiers who
18 received fragments from residents.
19 Q. In your view, the fact that it concerned a 60-millimetre shell,
20 would that have a significant bearing on the findings of this report?
21 A. First of all, let me explain why the officer who drew the first
22 conclusions may have been mistaken. It's because there were no
23 60-millimetre mortars in his army. That's why he was mistaken. He
24 wasn't familiar with the impact of such ammunition. He didn't have
25 knowledge about it. And, secondly, given the confusion from the
1 analysis -- well, it doesn't change anything with regard to the direction
2 from -- or the source, the origin of fire. It may have an effect on the
3 range from which -- or the distance from which it was fired. But I don't
4 think it plays a significant role given the height of the buildings.
5 Experts should be consulted about this, and the experts were these two
6 members from UNPROFOR who were in charge of the investigation, and they
7 themselves drew conclusions from all these elements.
8 Q. The investigators collected evidence from eye-witnesses, Stekovic
9 and Zornic among others, both of whom claimed that there were no military
10 targets in Dobrinja, which is contrary to the very finding which, at page
11 5 in B/C/S, paragraph 13, and page 6 of the English version,
12 paragraph 13, including item 14 in both versions, say that the position
13 of a mortar -- of mortars were 500 metres away.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bolton.
15 MS. BOLTON: Sorry. My friend is indicating something that these
16 eye-witnesses have said and I wonder if he could quote exactly what it is
17 they have said to the witness rather than paraphrasing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. I think, if you want -- if the
19 witness --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have references, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Stekovic is page 4, paragraph 4 --
23 JUDGE ORIE: What you -- you're asking the witness about
24 eye-witnesses being contrary to findings. Then if you want his -- this
25 to hear from the witness, the question arises whether it's better done by
1 the witness or by the Chamber. But if we want to hear the evidence of
2 the witness on this matter, you should put clearly to him what these
3 eye-witnesses said and what the evidence is you consider it to be
4 inconsistent with before you ask comment from this witness.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Stekovic, at page 3 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 4; and at
7 page 4 of the English version, paragraph 4 -- actually, it's not under
8 these items, but we have it in the English version above in the text:
9 [In English] "Mr. Stekovic told us that there are no military
10 targets in that area ..."
11 [Interpretation] As for Zornic, it's in English at page 4,
12 paragraph 5, under (d), he says:
13 [In English] "He is in the military, and there are no military
14 targets within 1 kilometre of the scene ..."
15 [Interpretation] We now need page 6, paragraph 13, in English;
16 and in the B/C/S, page 5, paragraph 13. Here, we can see that it says:
17 [In English] "On 4th July 1993 efforts to conduct these
18 interviews on 4th July 1993 were also cancelled as a result of heavy
19 fighting in and around Dobrinja and Sarajevo airport."
20 [Interpretation] Now we need the English version, page 6,
21 paragraph 14; and, in the B/C/S, page 5, paragraph 14, where the last
22 sentence reads:
23 "In addition, it was explained that there are Bosnian mortars
24 located outside the hospital, approximately 500 metres from the soccer
1 In other words, we see that, again, mortars located by the
2 hospital are involved which are 500 metres away from the point of
4 Do you have any comments to make on the information that the
5 investigators obtained from witnesses?
6 A. It's a question?
7 Q. [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Were they witnesses who were speaking the truth or not?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Have you any idea of unknown persons giving
12 statements which you've not looked at yet because their real statements
13 are somewhere else in the document? This is just a summary.
14 Do you think that you could opine about whether they were telling
15 the truth, Witness? That is a sincere question to you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can say is that
17 their statements are their own. As to whether they are true or not, I'm
18 not in a position to know that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, everyone in this courtroom could have
20 expected no other answer that this one.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. These investigators here tried to obtain information in other
24 ways as well.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 4 of the B/C/S version,
1 paragraph 8 and paragraph 9; and page 5 of the English version,
2 paragraphs 8 and 9.
3 Q. Did you speak to them; and did they tell you that they were sent
4 from the local police station to the main police station, that they were
5 unable to find anything at the local police station, that no
6 investigation was conducted, that they weren't able to find anything at
7 the main police station either, which then referred them to the centre --
8 to the Security Services Centre? All the while, they were being told
9 that there was documentation but that they should search for it
11 Did they tell you this?
12 A. I believe I have never met these two people that conducted the
13 investigation, and I would add that I had read for the first time their
14 reports as I came to prepare for my testimony. These reports must have
15 arrived after I had left, given the administrative hassles involved.
16 Q. [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The impression I gained was that you did have a part to play in
20 this, since the document was introduced through you. Was admitted into
22 I would like to show you the English version, page 7,
23 paragraphs 19 and 12 [as interpreted]; and in B/C/S page 6, paragraphs 19
24 and 20.
25 We can see that this isn't a final report. Some other actions
1 needed undertaking and another report needed to be sent in. However,
2 since you left, as you say, probably before the first version was
3 drafted, I suppose you wouldn't know whether the final document was
4 produced, or do you?
5 A. The report which was issued later is something that I know
6 nothing about. This interim report, or temporary report, is a report I
7 on -- read when I prepared for this testimony.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will have to move into private
10 session now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 6412-6416 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Mr. Lukic, the witness was asked whether UNPROFOR assisted in the
19 digging of the tunnel with its machinery. Before the witness started
20 answering, Mr. Mladic said loudly, Yes, or a correspondent word in B/C/S,
21 but the Judges understood it to be yes. But irrespective of what he
22 exactly said, yes, or "jeste," he intervened, thus, in the examination of
23 the witness and that is what we not allowed and that is the reason why he
24 was removed from the courtroom.
25 As always, the removal from the courtroom means until the end of
1 the testimony of the present witness. And since we still have some
2 scheduling to discuss, Mr. Mladic may enter the courtroom once we reach
3 that point.
4 Then we went now into open session. I do not know whether you
5 want to remain in only session or whether you would --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I think we can remain in the open session,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The document we're looking at should be under seal,
2 Mr. -- yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: I don't have it marked so ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's hereby indicated that it should not be
5 shown to the public.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Q. [Interpretation] The document goes on to say:
9 "The enemy opened heavy sniper fire at Grbavica, Lukavica,
10 Vogosca, and Nedzarici."
11 Sir, I would ask you this, did you also monitor the situation in
12 those parts of Sarajevo held by the Army of Republika Srpska?
13 A. Yes. I followed what was happening in the so-called greater
14 Sarajevo and Grbavica.
15 Q. Did you monitor Lukavica, Vogosca, Nedzarici?
16 A. Nedzarici, yes, because it was very close to the airport.
17 Vogosca, to a lesser extent. And Lukavica, yes, since I regularly was
19 Q. And this level or intensity of shelling, was that something that
20 was usual for that period? Those shells falling on the Serb sections of
22 A. Over that period of time, that is to say, the beginning of
23 February, indeed, there was a lot of artillery activity on both sides.
24 And in these neighbourhoods we could also notice that some shells landed.
25 And I think that in my written statement I said that it also happened
1 that -- sorry, the Lukavica barracks and the Presidency building were
3 Q. As members of UNPROFOR, did you have the right to inspect the
4 barracks of the Army of Republika Srpska at that time?
5 A. We had no right to perform any inspection. We were only allowed
6 to enter barracks if military commanders on site allowed us to do it.
7 Q. At the time, when you were in Sarajevo, were there any private
8 convoys which did not move in trucks?
9 A. Private convoys which did not move in trucks? I don't see how
10 this could happen then. Maybe supplies provided by people on foot, if
11 that's what you mean?
12 Q. Which did not use UN trucks; this is what I meant.
13 A. Okay. I understand your question now.
14 Yes, there were private humanitarian organisations that supplied
15 and tried to supply Sarajevo. Some of them came from Central Bosnia and
16 others from Serbia, the area of Belgrade.
17 Q. The Prosecutor tendered several photographs as exhibits, so I
18 would like to see 11537 on the screen, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, what do you intend to do with the
20 previous document which was I think, 65 ter 12061. It has been marked
21 for identification as P664. Would you like to ... you don't have to
22 tender it, but if you would say, I have no objections against admission,
23 then this document tendered by the Prosecution could be admitted. You
24 used it.
25 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any objections.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P664 is admitted into evidence, under seal.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In these photographs, sir, we see a building, or perhaps two,
4 that have no roof.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you know how far this building is from the front line?
10 A. I'm trying to remember. I think that I know these buildings. It
11 seems that they are located at the end of Tito Avenue. When you go
12 towards the Presidency, the old town, just before that, on the right-hand
13 side of the picture, we must be very close from the Grbavica
14 neighbourhood, so very close from the front line, if I'm not mistaken.
15 And my apologies if I don't remember well.
16 If I have a closer look at the picture, can I see that there is a
17 lane on the right and that there's a series of containers that must have
18 been used by people who were crossing on foot as a protective device and
19 to protect themselves from fire coming from the right. But I haven't
20 been there for more than 20 years, so maybe I'm mistaken.
21 Q. Well, I didn't want to have you make an error or something. But
22 I want to just say that the buildings are some 50 metres away from the
24 A. Yes, absolutely.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just look at 11535 briefly,
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, of course you're not giving evidence, but
3 that is what you think is the case.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: There's no reason to say is that. If you have
6 reason to say that, then you can do that during argument, but the witness
7 isn't certain.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, we've heard this.
10 Q. Sir, would you agree that these buildings were less than
11 50 metres, 30, or 40 metres, perhaps, away from the Miljacka and from the
12 front line?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then have a look at the pictures again.
14 The other -- the other -- is -- are you asking about this
15 picture [Overlapping speakers]
16 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] the previous one, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The previous one. I'd like to have it on the
18 screen. P658, MFI'd, is the ... yes.
19 Do we know where that -- where this is which crossing it is?
20 Then we have a map and then we can measure how far it is rather than to
21 start speculating on basis of invisible river.
22 If the parties could agree on which crossing this is, then there
23 may be clues for doing that, and then we can see whether the two or I
24 even see three buildings without roofs. There may be even more. How far
25 it is from the Miljacka river. And also then to establish whether at
1 that point the confrontation line was at the Miljacka river, because that
2 is all needed to make any further statements on the matter.
3 Please proceed. With the next photograph.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 11535 now, please.
5 Ah, thank you.
6 Q. Sir, this is the only building that was destroyed in the way we
7 see that this building was destroyed in Sarajevo [as interpreted]. This
8 is the library.
9 A. No, I was not present when it was destroyed or when it burnt. I
10 think that it was in the spring of 1992. But I walked passed the library
11 several times, and I noticed that it was in this state.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D489 in e-court,
14 please. We will need to move into private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 6424-6452 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 We have 16 associated exhibits left.
24 Ms. Bolton, I have got a list here with provisionally assigned
25 numbers. Where are we as far as objections are concerned for the
1 remaining 16, Mr. Lukic?
2 MR. LUKIC: I think we agreed, my learned friend and me, to
3 respond on this issue in writing.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
5 MR. LUKIC: So we don't use your time.
6 MS. BOLTON: I think -- I think we may be a little at odds. I
7 think -- my understanding was there was only one exhibit that the Defence
8 objected to, in substance, which was 09939, and that that was the exhibit
9 we would address in writing. And I didn't think there was an issue with
10 the remaining ones, but I may have misunderstood my friend.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties further agree on how to proceed on
12 this matter, either orally after this winter recess or in writing and
13 then preferably within the next six months so that we can proceed.
14 Any other matter to be raised before the winter recess?
15 Then before adjourning, I wish everyone everything he expects
16 from these special days coming, whether it's Christmas on the 25th of
17 December, or whether it is Christmas -- or Orthodox Christmas. Would
18 Mr. Mladic had been here, I would have included him in these wishes,
19 although I do understand that he does not find himself in a situation
20 where he preferably would celebrate those days. Nevertheless, for
21 everyone, best. And we'll resume on Thursday, the 10th of January, at
22 9.30 in the morning, in this same - I'm just checking whether the time is
23 right - and it's Courtroom I. That is one thing I know for sure.
24 Yes, it's 9.30 in the morning, Thursday, the 10th of January,
25 2013, in Courtroom I.
1 We stand adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th of January,
4 2013, at 9.30 a.m.