1 Friday, 18 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
6 Mr. Groome, the Chamber was informed that you had a preliminary
7 matter to be raised.
8 MR. GROOME: Just briefly, Your Honour. Your Honour, on the
9 14th of January, 2013, P684 was admitted into evidence. The English
10 translation of the document did not contain the translation of a
11 handwritten note, and I'd refer the Chamber to T6698 to 6700, and a
12 revised English translation was requested. We now have it and we would
13 ask for the Chamber to grant us leave to replace the translation
14 currently in e-court with this amended revised translation. Thank you,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The leave is granted and the Registrar is instructed
17 to replace the new version of the translation to -- let me see. No. To
18 replace the old version of the translation of P684 by the new one.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Rose.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, sir.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rose, I again would like to remind you that
23 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the
24 beginning of the testimony, but before Mr. Lukic resumes his
25 cross-examination, I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not in court
1 today as we expected in view of your observations yesterday, Mr. Lukic,
2 and that the Chamber received a signed waiver form signed by Mr. Mladic,
3 and it is about the 18th of January.
4 Please proceed.
5 WITNESS: MICHAEL ROSE [Resumed]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
7 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, General, good morning.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I hope that we will finish soon today, and I would kindly ask you
10 to just bear for a little bit longer with me.
11 You have your statement in front of you; is that correct?
12 A. I do have.
13 Q. Would you be kind and to look at paragraph 145 of your statement,
15 A. I have it.
16 Q. In paragraph 145, you say that:
17 "On the 27th of August, 1994, I accompanied General Wesley Clark,
18 head of operations in the Pentagon to see General Mladic in Banja Luka."
19 And you say, "General Mladic" insisted on a cease-fire, "pressed
20 for a cease-fire to be followed by a political solution. General Clark
21 advocated that a gesture should be made by the BSA such as withdrawal
22 from an occupied area. I suggested further demilitarisation."
23 On this occasion, also no concessions were sought from the Muslim
24 side. Concessions were sought only from the Serbian side; is that
25 correct, General?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. In this paragraph, you discuss a document. I would like to look
3 at the document in e-court. That's 8154, please. This is a report from
4 the meeting of the 27th of August, and you recognise the format of the
5 document, don't you? And at the bottom here in the report from this
6 meeting, could you please look at item 5 at the bottom of the page, and
7 there we can see that Mladic stated:
8 "We have only 43.24 per cent of the territory," whereas the
9 Muslims have 56.73 per cent with 37 towns.
10 I would ask you this: Is it correct that each time the Serbs
11 would receive less than 49 per cent of the territory according to the
12 plans that you saw?
13 A. I was not party to the Contact Group. They kept themselves
14 separate and distinct from any discussions we had with either of the
15 warring parties. So I don't know what they had on offer at that time,
16 and of course it was changing throughout the period that I was in Bosnia
17 anyway. Different offers were being made.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the basis was to award territory to
19 the Muslims? Was it by the number of the population, landownership or
20 some other criteria, or do you know not know what the criteria were to
21 determine these percentages?
22 A. As I say, I was not party to the Contact Group discussion, so I
23 have no knowledge.
24 Q. Thank you. I just ask for your indulgence for a moment.
25 We're now going to look at document 8155. We can see that this
1 is a fax or a telegram being sent by Mr. de Lapresle to Mr. Annan, and in
2 paragraph 149 of your statement you say:
3 "On the 18th of September, 1994, I wrote both to General Mladic
4 and General Delic, calling on them to immediately hold military
5 actions ..." You warned them that if the fighting does not stop, I would
6 be obliged to take all appropriate measures against their forces,
7 including the use of air-strikes.
8 What was the reaction to this by General Delic? Do you recall
10 A. I think my discussion was with President Izetbegovic, and it was
11 extremely negative. He was horrified to hear that I was threatening to
12 use air-strikes against the Bosnian government forces, and I suspect he
13 then made contact with the people on the NATO side to make sure that
14 would not happen, but that's a supposition on my part.
15 Q. Thank you. The position of the UNPROFOR was that the Serbs
16 should not use the weaponry that they had handed in to the collection
17 points controlled by UNPROFOR even in case of a Muslim offensive; is that
19 A. That was correct.
20 Q. Can we now look at 1D557 in e-court, please. This document
21 consists of several sections. First is a report of the 16th of August
22 from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan at the UN. I would like to look at page 4
23 of the document, the Protocol of Understanding. This protocol was
24 drafted between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Karadzic. From paragraph 1, marked 1,
25 first I think in my view we have two situations: One is that the
1 UNPROFOR should withdraw. This is what the paragraph begins with. The
2 second begins in line six of this paragraph, stating that in case the
3 Muslims attack -- actually, in line 6 it states:
4 [In English] "... in event of a Muslim attack on the Serbs which
5 UNPROFOR is not able either prevent or stop immediately, the BSA reserves
6 the right to implement adequate measures of self-defence."
7 [Interpretation] General, in your view does that mean that the
8 Serbs did have the right to take the weapons that they had handed in to
9 the collection points or not?
10 A. I don't believe it gave them the right to go and get those
11 weapons back, and I was certainly not party to this particular agreement
12 which when I saw it subsequently was somewhat of a surprise to me. We
13 maintained the position that they had no right to come and collect the
14 weapons from those weapon collecting points, which is why we on occasions
15 called down air-strikes when they did so do.
16 Q. And can we conclude that at the time when you called in
17 air-strikes on Serb positions you had not seen this protocol?
18 A. No, I had not.
19 Q. In paragraph 4 of the protocol - can we look at it on the
20 monitor, please - it states:
21 [In English] "Neither the Serb nor the Muslim side is permitted
22 to engage in military activities of any description, and this includes
23 consolidation of trenches or their forward movement and similar
25 [Interpretation] General, is it correct that even after this date
1 the Muslim forces did carry out offensives on Serb positions?
2 A. They undoubtedly did so, particularly after the assault which
3 they launched on the 18th of September.
4 Q. Thank you. Just one moment, please. Need to look at the
5 transcript of the 8th of October. I can't find it at the moment.
6 Actually, I can't find the 65 ter number at the moment, or, actually, our
7 1D number. It's 1D551. We need to look at page 7581, please.
8 Seventy-five. Line 13 on, up to line 19.
9 You explained here, General, that the Muslims -- or that, rather,
10 that NATO by that time had already changed its policies and that they
11 were not prepared to use any force at all against the Bosnian government
12 forces, or forces of the Bosnian government as it states here, even
13 though the Muslim forces at that time were in direct violation of a NATO
14 ultimatum. You did mention this before. What was this ultimatum from
15 NATO? Could you please explain that a little bit more?
16 A. The ultimatum that had been given to both sides by NATO in 1993
17 was that there should be a zone on Mount Igman from which all military
18 weapons and units would be excluded. It was known as the TEZ, total
19 exclusion zone. And on this basis the Serbs who controlled most of the
20 territory on Mount Igman withdrew their forces, relied on the UN and NATO
21 to maintain the integrity of that total exclusion zone. As we've
22 discussed, NATO's position subsequently changed, and when the Bosnian
23 government forces attacked into that zone and slaughtered a number of
24 nurses in a medical station, Serb nurses, NATO took no action in spite of
25 my request.
1 Q. Thank you. Can we go forward ten pages to transcript page 7591,
2 please. We will be looking at lines 9 to 12.
3 The Judge asked you -- actually, the question starts in line 10:
4 [In English] "Now, would you say, General, that NATO's refusal to
5 take action would have emboldened the Bosnian government to continue in
6 that way?"
7 The answer was:
8 "It certainly would have done so and indeed it did so."
9 [Interpretation] The Bosnian forces, knowing that they would not
10 be bombed, did not pay much heed to your warning; is that correct? And
11 they continued as if they had not been warned about their offences
12 against the Serb forces.
13 A. That is so.
14 Q. Thank you. Can we look at paragraph 167 of your statement now,
15 please. In that paragraph you say that General Delic said that he should
16 remove the units from the demilitarised zone. This is also a consequence
17 of the awareness of the Muslim forces that no action would be taken
18 against them; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct, but we in fact ceased talking to General Delic
20 on this subject, and we took the issue up with President Izetbegovic, and
21 it was he who finally agreed to withdraw the Bosnian government forces
22 back outside to a line outside the total exclusion zone. And he issued
23 the orders to General Delic, and that finally happened.
24 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 175 of your statement just briefly, please.
25 Somewhere here at the end of the first half of the paragraph, you say
2 "The first topic was the conflict in Bihac. Dr. Karadzic refused
3 to recognise the safety zone the way it was recognised, as defined, and
4 was insistent that his forces would continue to advance to destroy the
5 Bosnian government Army's 5th Corps.
6 Was the 5th Corps of the B and H Army a legitimate military
8 A. I guess if there had been combat in the area and the 5th Corps
9 were engaging the Serb side, they would have considered that to be a
10 legitimate target in response. Unfortunately, the 5th Corps withdrew
11 into the town, and that made it difficult for the Serb side to engage the
12 5th Corps elements without undue civilian casualties, and that is why the
13 United Nations tried to prevent by calling in air-strikes civilian
14 casualties in Bihac caused by the Serb side.
15 Q. So UNPROFOR believed that at the moment when the Muslim forces
16 entered the safe zone after participating in combat action, they stop
17 being a legitimate military target. Did I understand that correctly?
18 A. Well, whether they were or not in the view of the Serbs made no
19 difference to the United Nations approach. They were merely determined
20 to halt fire being laid down in the civilian areas. That was our
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the previous answer started with, "I
23 guess that if there had been." The ifs and ands are all there. That's
25 Second, of course the Chamber would like to know 20 -- what was
1 it? 24th of November, 1994, what rules, what
2 Security Council Resolutions, what agreements were there, what actually
3 happened for a fact, what then happened in response to that? I mean,
4 that is all to give a proper judgement on what is legitimate. Is there a
5 legitimate target? What does that mean? Can you engage every legitimate
6 target with every means? That's all the questions that arise, which, of
7 course, are not dealt with in such a way that it assists the Chamber to
8 make its findings, at least with this witness. If it comes at a later
9 stage, then of course we'll further hear from you, but it is if this, if
11 THE WITNESS: Sir, I might be able to help with setting a certain
12 baseline for subsequent discussions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Lukic would like you to do that,
14 he's -- you're his witness at the moment. He's cross-examining you. I'm
15 just commenting. If Mr. Lukic would invite you to do so, then we'll
17 MR. LUKIC:
18 Q. General, please.
19 A. The United Nations at that time, as you know, had defined six
20 safe areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and with the agreement of all the
21 warring parties there would be no combat in or around those safe areas.
22 Unfortunately, this was not adhered to, and when fighting broke out in
23 these safe areas, particularly around Gorazde as we've heard, and Bihac,
24 the United Nations' responsibility at that point was to deter further
25 attacks against those safe areas. The exact boundaries of those safe
1 areas were never particularly clearly laid down on a map, and a great
2 deal of debate took place during my time, and particularly when the
3 attacks occurred into Bihac, as to exactly where the boundary lay. In
4 the end, it was decided that it was where the concentration of civilian
5 populations were, and that would define the limits of the safe area, and
6 that is when we -- when fire was laid down on these civilian occupied
7 areas, that is when we called in NATO air-strikes. That was the basis on
8 which our judgements were made.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you one short question but perhaps
10 a difficult one. Was there any opinion formed within UNPROFOR and the UN
11 about what would be the situation if the additional agreements between
12 the parties would be violated? Would that mean that the underlying UN
13 Security Council Resolutions would lose their validity or would be null
14 and void, or would it just be that you step back and say the mutual
15 agreement is violated. It's not binding upon the parties anymore. So
16 the only remaining legal instrument which is now which is now ruling,
17 which is now governing the situation is the UN Security Council, is it,
18 or was it --
19 THE WITNESS: That was the case. That was the latter situation
20 that you described was the line that we finally were obliged to take.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so if you violate your mutual agreements, fine,
22 then what remains is the UN Security Council Resolution.
23 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you for the explanation, General. You used a term, "at the
2 end." When was it that you actually determined that an inhabited or
3 populated area would be what, in fact, you would be protecting? When was
4 that in the end, if you recall?
5 A. Well, we never tried to protect because we didn't have the means
6 for doing so. We were deterring attacks against, which is a different
7 order of activity. But the moment at which we had decided this was to be
8 the distinguishing feature of a safe area was after the attacks had been
9 launched into Bihac, the 5th Corps Bosnian government forces had
10 withdrawn into that area and there was fire beginning to be laid down in
11 Bihac. At that point we decided that that was the definition we would
12 use. So it was late November.
13 Q. Thank you. Did it happen that NATO planes would bomb without the
14 previous written consent by the Security Council? How did that mechanism
15 function? You said that you would be seeking support of NATO planes in
16 order to deter attacks. How would you go about getting permission for
18 A. NATO reserved the right to fire without the authority of the
19 United Nations, but only in self-defence, and by the November time, the
20 Serb side had introduced high-technology, high-altitude complex
21 ground-air defence systems, and NATO on occasions fired at these systems
22 when they had been illuminated by hostile radar without authority of the
23 United Nations. Otherwise, the only strikes that were made in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina were done [Realtime transcript read in error "don't"]
25 with the authority of the United Nations.
1 On the occasion of Bihac, NATO was unable to identify the targets
2 that we wished them to engage, and therefore no air-strikes actually took
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, can you help me with one clarification. You
6 see on the transcript in the -- on page 11, lines 17 and 18 the sentence:
7 "Otherwise, the only strikes that were made in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina were don't authority of the United Nations."
9 I think there's -- it's not clear what is recorded here. Perhaps
10 you can clarify that.
11 THE WITNESS: That should read "the only strikes that were made
12 in Bosnia-Herzegovina were made with the authority of the
13 United Nations."
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, can you please look at paragraph 185 of your statement
17 now, please. Here you talk about Dr. Karadzic, and then in the middle of
18 the paragraph you say he demanded that the Croatian military leave their
19 territory. What did the UNPROFOR do in respect of that request, because
20 it's known, and you told us that some 5.000 soldiers from Croatia entered
21 the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?
22 A. I cannot recall exactly what this discussion was about and where
23 these Croatian military were located, but I suspect it was probably in
24 the area around Bihac, to the north of Bihac, or maybe to the west. But
25 I don't recall this exact, precise discussion, the details of it.
1 Q. I think that it was in the Livno Duvno area, in fact. Do you
2 recall -- you said here that you remember that conversation. Do you
3 recall if anything was done in respect of this request? If not, we will
4 just move on.
5 A. I think you should move on, sir, because all dealings with the
6 Croatian government were done by Zagreb and Mr. Akashi, not by me.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. From what I understood, UNPROFOR had two main
8 tasks, the delivery of humanitarian aid and establishing peace; is that
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Initially, the Muslims welcomed the arrival of UNPROFOR and were
12 grateful for the aid provided; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. However, the Muslims were opposed to the second task of the
15 UNPROFOR, that is to establish peace; is that correct?
16 A. Initially, of course, they were welcoming the UNPROFOR presence
17 on -- for that reason as well, because they were in danger of being
18 overrun by their opponents on the Serb side, but as they -- the situation
19 stabilised and as they were being equipped and trained by NATO and the
20 American side, they saw the peacekeeping effort as being an obstacle to
21 them going back to military action in order to regain their lost
22 territories by force of arms. So we -- the United Nations did indeed
23 become an obstacle to their ambitions, their strategic ambitions.
24 Q. Thank you, General.
25 A. And I could add that by then the success of the United Nations
1 aid delivery programme was such that the number of people dependent on
2 humanitarian aid had greatly reduced and the Bosnian government felt that
3 they were able to look after their own people without outside help.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we now briefly dwell on paragraph 199 of your
5 statement. We're slowly coming to the end.
6 You talked about your belief about the purpose of the siege of
7 Sarajevo. Was there a large number of enemy soldiers being held,
8 encircled in Sarajevo? Is it true that the Serbs were holding encircled
9 the whole 1st Corps of the Bosnian Army? Would that be something that
10 was justified?
11 A. Well, certainly the Serb side had driven the Bosnian government
12 forces into Sarajevo. How effective they were, I have no idea, but they
13 certainly manned a defensive line which ran some 70 kilometres around
15 Q. And is it also correct that the Serbs who were positioned around
16 Sarajevo in many places were themselves surrounded by Muslim forces, that
17 they in turn were also encircled?
18 A. I can't think of any particular location where that was the case.
19 Q. If one were to look at the general area of Sarajevo. Perhaps
20 you're not familiar with that, and I won't press that any further.
21 A. We certainly didn't have a visibility of all the deployments of
22 the warring parties throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I guess to the
23 west and north of Sarajevo that could have been the case.
24 Q. Thank you. Please bear with me.
25 Thank you, General. Those were the questions I had for you, and
1 thank you for answering them.
2 A. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
4 Ms. Bibles, could you give us an indication whether there is any
5 need to further examine the witness and how much time that would take.
6 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, we do have about -- I'd estimate maybe
7 30 minutes worth of questions for this witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please start. We'll take a break in
9 approximately 10 minutes from now. No. Well -- Mr. Lukic, would it be
10 of any use to have the normal length of sessions which is 75 minutes,
11 which would give a better chance for Mr. Mladic to rejoin us after the
12 break, because we would then resume later, and if he would have arrived
13 by that time, he could immediately come in.
14 MR. LUKIC: We have no objection to that proposal, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we do not take the break after
16 one hour as we do in the presence of Mr. Mladic, but that we continue
17 until quarter to 11.00.
18 You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.
19 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Re-examination by Ms. Bibles:
21 Q. Good morning, General.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. General Rose, during cross-examination you were asked a series of
24 questions about the Serb military operations in Gorazde in April of 1994.
25 I'd like to return to this line of questioning, and in doing so, I'd like
1 to start by showing you United Nations Security Council Resolution 824
2 referred to in cross-examination.
3 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could we please bring P22 to our
5 Q. General Rose, first I'll ask is this Security Resolution 824 as
6 you recall it?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, we'd next like to go to page 2 of
9 this exhibit, and specifically paragraph 4.
10 Q. General, specifically, I draw your attention to paragraph 4,
11 particularly subsection (a), which declares the withdrawal of all
12 Bosnian Serb military or -- military units.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You've had an opportunity to review that?
15 A. I have.
16 Q. And you'd agree that this Resolution was dated on the
17 6th of May, 1993?
18 A. It was.
19 MS. BIBLES: I'd now like, Your Honours, to bring up P24, which
20 would be UN Security Council Resolution 836 from the 4th of June, 1993,
21 mentioned in cross-examination.
22 Q. Does the document on the screen appear to you to be
23 Resolution 836?
24 A. It does indeed, yes.
25 Q. And if we could now go to page 3 and focus on paragraph 5. You
1 have an opportunity to review this paragraph with respect to the UNPROFOR
2 mandate with respect to the safe areas.
3 A. Yes. I'm well aware of those [indiscernible].
4 Q. All right. And particularly regarding the task to promote the
5 withdrawal of military or paramilitary units other than those of the
6 government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 General, in respect to Gorazde during your time in command, was
8 UNPROFOR's mandate carried out in accordance with these
9 Security Council Resolutions?
10 A. To the best of their ability it was.
11 Q. I'd now like to turn to your -- turn your attention to
12 paragraph 67 of your statement, and there you state:
13 "At a meeting on 6 April 1994, in Pale, Radovan Karadzic said
14 the Bosnian Serbs had no intention of capturing Gorazde town and merely
15 wanted to retake villages on the right bank of the River Drina."
16 Yesterday, Defence counsel showed you an order from
17 General Milovanovic dated the next day, 7 April 1994, and sent to the
18 commands of various corps within the Bosnian Serb Army. I'd like to
19 bring up that order again, 65 ter 0923 -- excuse me, 09236. Specifically
20 the second page and paragraph 2.
21 It's starting where we see an order to the Bosnian Serb forces to
22 enter Gorazde, and I believe the paragraph starts with "If a tactical
23 opportunity" arises.
24 General Rose, what do you assess the true objectives of the
25 Bosnian Serb Gorazde offensive to be?
1 A. At that time, we tended to believe Dr. Karadzic's assertion that
2 they were merely recovering their lost villages on the right bank of the
3 Drina, but not having this intelligence in front of us at the time, had
4 we done so, then of course we would have understood that their intention
5 was to treat Gorazde in the way they subsequently treated Srebrenica.
6 Q. General --
7 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to admit 09236.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P733, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P733 is admitted into evidence.
11 Mr. Lukic, it triggers the following observation: The Chamber
12 noted that you have not tendered any of the documents you used in
13 evidence. Is that what you intended, or would you still want some of it
14 to be in evidence?
15 MR. LUKIC: I'm sure that the documents will be introduced in the
16 future as well, so we can introduce them in the future. I will -- I'm
17 satisfied with the answers we got from the general.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we leave it to that.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
21 Q. General, with respect to Mladic's involvement in the Gorazde
22 offensive, yesterday you were shown a document, I believe it was
23 yesterday, now in evidence as P731 - and I would ask that we bring that
24 to our screens - which noted that General Mladic visited the zone of
25 combat on 10 April 1994, and relayed a message to keep pushing
1 energetically onward.
2 General Rose, to place this statement in context, are you -- or
3 could you describe as of the 10th of April of 1994, the state of the
4 Bosnian government military forces in and around Gorazde?
5 A. I think at that time they had started to withdraw back into the
6 town, leaving the town very much undefended, and it was about that time
7 also that we called on air-strikes on artillery positions and armoured
8 units that were firing on Gorazde.
9 Q. And, General, turning to the bottom of page 18 of your statement
10 and paragraph 77, would you agree now with the assessment that the
11 Bosnian Army had collapsed and was in total retreat, that the soldiers
12 appeared to have given up all armed resistance?
13 A. They certainly gave the impression of that. Whether this was
14 done through a matter of tactics on their part or whether they had been
15 forced into retreat by the Bosnian Serb side, we never really
17 Q. During this time period, April of 1994, your statement,
18 throughout this portion of your statement, you indicate you communicated
19 both directly with Mladic and through others regarding the Bosnian Serb
20 actions, and specifically in paragraph 78, you described that you sent a
21 message warning of NATO strikes, that you received a response from him in
22 paragraph 79. In paragraph 83, you detail specific warnings from Mladic
23 about UN personnel. And in paragraph 85, you describe communications to
24 Mladic warning him with respect to tanks.
25 A. Yes. All that figures with the events of the time.
1 Q. Did you have any concerns given this that the Bosnian Serb Army
2 was confused over what you were asking them to do to avoid NATO
4 A. No. We were quite specific in our demands, and they understood
5 them fully.
6 Q. In relationship to Gorazde, I would ask that we bring up
7 65 ter 09108.
8 As this document is brought to our screens, I'd ask that you take
9 a moment to review.
10 A. Yes, I've read that.
11 Q. And could you tell us the date of this order?
12 A. 13th of April.
13 Q. And, General, does this appear to be an order from -- ultimately
14 from Karadzic?
15 A. It seems to be from Karadzic.
16 Q. And as we review this document, it appears that Karadzic met with
17 a Russian official who suggested that international public -- the
18 international public was coming around. And as we go through that, based
19 on that perspective, that the Bosnian Serb forces had about three days to
20 make maximum use of their military efforts.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Did your observations of the subsequent activities in this
23 time-frame reflect that this order was carried out?
24 A. They had slowed down by then, but I think that was a result of
25 NATO action. Looking at that letter, I suspect this is an interpretation
1 of a statement made by President -- or Mr. Karadzic, and it was actually
2 issued by the army headquarters based -- but based on a statement from
4 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 09108.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P734, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P734 is admitted into evidence.
8 Could -- could I ask one clarification on one of your previous
9 answers, Mr. Rose. You said Gorazde, when they had withdrawn within the
10 town, was more or less undefended. Now, a town or a city which is
11 undefended has also a very specific legal meaning. I'm not bothering you
12 with the interpretation of that, but part of it may be that, for example,
13 it was declared that the opposite party could enter that town and would
14 be free to do so. I mean, is this legal meaning that you had in mind or
15 just factual that there was not much military activity in -- in engaging
16 the party which was outside of the town?
17 THE WITNESS: The latter would be the case.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The latter. Yes, thank you.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. BIBLES:
21 Q. General, on cross-examination you were shown a document referred
22 to in paragraph 34 of your statement. Somewhat as a housekeeping matter
23 and in response to the Trial Chamber's request, we have located a
24 document -- the document here, which appears to miss the fax cover sheet,
25 but contains perhaps the first page.
1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, could we bring 10716 to the screens.
2 Q. General, if you have -- if you could take a few moments and
3 review this first page.
4 A. I see that document.
5 Q. And if we could now turn to the second page, please. Is this --
6 A. Yes. I understand that document.
7 Q. And this was the same document --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- referred to in paragraph 34?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Do you have a perspective as to whether the first page in this
12 document accurately depicts the events of that meeting?
13 A. It does indeed.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 10716 rather
15 than 08137.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objections? Then -- yes, now, just for my
17 recollection, was -- the previous one was not tendered yet, or was
18 tendered but was a number assigned? Number P734 -- is that --
19 MS. BIBLES: My notes indicate that because of the concern about
20 the first page that the other document was not MFI'd.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Registrar, now having a full copy of
22 the document and there's no need to have the cover page. I take it the
23 content of that which is very short was read into the record anyhow, and
24 that this is then the document attached to that cover page.
25 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 10716 shall be assigned
3 Exhibit P735. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P735 is admitted into evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Just for clarification of report, it's 10716.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's hereby on the record.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. BIBLES:
9 Q. Now, General, I'd like to turn your attention back to
10 February of 1994. Tuesday, starting at transcript page 6880, you were
11 asked a series of questions about the two commissions established to
12 investigate the origin of the mortar bomb that landed in the Markale
13 market on 5 February 1994, as well as questions on the methodology of the
14 reports generated by these two commissions. General, are you in a
15 position to comment extensively or in depth about these two commissions,
16 their work or their reports with respect to this incident?
17 A. I don't have any further knowledge other than stated on the
19 Q. Were you involved at all in the report writing?
20 A. No, I was not.
21 Q. And would you consider yourself a technician or expert in these
22 sorts of things?
23 A. Definitely not.
24 Q. General, yesterday with respect -- or in the context of the JCOs
25 operating in Gorazde, you were asked the following:
1 "The person guiding the plane is a member of UNPROFOR. Would you
2 agree with me that he, together with the pilot, makes up the team that is
3 attacking a Serb target?"
4 And your answer was:
5 "That is correct."
6 I'd like to ask a follow-up question to this: If the person
7 guiding the plane makes up the team, is it a legitimate tactic to seize
8 the person and then place him in a position that might be targeted by
10 A. It certainly would have been a tactic employed and subsequently
11 whether -- but I don't think it was employed at the Gorazde incident
12 because they didn't take any JCOs as prisoners.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Ms. Bibles, I opposed yesterday to "if"
14 questions. You're doing exactly the same, and now we hear from the
15 witness that the "if" does not materialise. So therefore that could be
16 prevented by just putting factual questions to the witness.
17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour, and I will cease that
19 Q. Finally, General, Tuesday, at transcript page 6890, with respect
20 to a Bosnian Serb position on a global peace agreement, you stated:
21 "It was a very open proposal. It was a general proposal that
22 was always on the table whenever we met with the Serb side."
23 Would it, therefore, be accurate to characterise General Mladic
24 as a peace monger?
25 A. Definitely not. He was using advantageous military position to
1 bring about an end to the conflict on his terms.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, that concludes the redirect.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
4 Mr. Lukic, it would be time for a break. Is there anything you
5 would like --
6 MR. LUKIC: Only one question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You only have one question, and that would conclude
8 the --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then I first, before we continue in this way, ask my
11 colleagues whether they have any questions.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then what we often do is that the Chamber's
14 questions will be put before you have the last round. Judge Moloto has
15 one or more questions. If we could squeeze this in, in, well, let's say,
16 in the next five to six minutes I think it would be wise to continue. If
17 not -- but I see Judge Moloto is confident that we'll be able to do so.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: General, I just have one question I hope --
20 General, I just have one question, and I hope it will stay one.
21 Yesterday at several locations you talked about the Muslims
22 breaching a NATO ultimatum with respect to Mount Igman and that you
23 called for NATO to -- to attack with an air-strike and NATO refused. I
24 just want to ask on the roads here and just to be able to understand
25 clearly, was it for you as -- as UNPROFOR to call for reaction as a
1 result of a breach of a NATO ultimatum?
2 A. Indeed it was, sir.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The reason that I'm asking the question is
4 that in certain instances you, during your testimony, you appeared to
5 make a clear distinction between NATO and UNPROFOR, and you said -- you
6 would say, for instance, "No, that was for NATO to do. It was not for
7 me." Now, I just -- are you able to explain to us why it was that you as
8 UNPROFOR would act on behalf of NATO where NATO actually was not
9 interested in acting in that direction?
10 A. The original situation, sir, was that the NATO airpower was
11 deployed in support of the United Nations mission on the ground, and as a
12 result of independent action by NATO, this total exclusion zone could be
13 established, but it was the United Nations on the ground who had to
14 maintain the integrity of that exclusion zone and to report violations to
15 NATO who we would then expect to take appropriate action. I never
16 specifically called for air-strikes against the Bosnian. I had a general
17 discussion with the American head of the NATO Air Forces in the
18 eastern Mediterranean, and it was during this discussion that he informed
19 me that NATO would never take military action against the Bosnian
20 government side even if they breached a NATO ultimatum.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, your last question.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] General, today we discussed the Resolutions 824
1 and 836. You told us that they served as the basis for your action,
2 primarily in cases of breaches of local agreements. My question is this:
3 If agreement between the warring parties was signed and one of the
4 signatories was, for example, Mr. Akashi or another UN representative,
5 was that supposed to be binding on UNPROFOR in the field as well?
6 A. UNPROFOR was there to mediate in an agreement that had been
7 signed between the two warring parties and the responsibility of UNPROFOR
8 at that time was to try and guarantee the effectiveness of that
9 agreement, but the United Nations forces on the ground were not in a
10 war-fighting deployment. They were there purely to facilitate
11 humanitarian aid. There was therefore a limit as to how much they could
12 enforce any agreement.
13 Sir, can I correct one statement I made previously?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 THE WITNESS: In response to the NATO ultimatum, I used the word
16 "never." In fact, the NATO air commander said to me, The only time we
17 would use force against the Bosnian government side was if your soldiers'
18 lives were in immediate danger and the Bosnian government side continued
19 their attack. At that point we may consider using an air-strike against
20 them. But it was a very narrow situation that he described.
21 JUDGE ORIE: "Your soldiers'" meaning UNPROFOR.
22 THE WITNESS: So "never" is quite -- was probably too absolute.
23 It would have been "not normally."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And "your soldiers" being UNPROFOR.
25 THE WITNESS: My soldiers being UNPROFOR peacekeepers.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, General. Thank you for
3 your answer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rose, unless the questions by the Bench have
5 triggered any further need for questions -- they have not. This
6 concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you very much for coming
7 to The Hague, staying with us for three days, having answered all the
8 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
9 wish you a safe return home again.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who to address, but after the break,
14 the next witness will be ready?
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We take a break, and we will resume
17 at -- let's take a break of 25 minutes, which is something in between of
18 20 and 30 minutes. We will resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I established that Mr. Mladic apparently has not yet
22 returned. I do understand that the visit was slightly delayed, which may
23 have caused his not yet returning.
24 We first deal with the admission of evidence. Before we do so,
25 the first one, of course, would be the statement of -- the 92 ter
1 statement of Mr. Rose. Before we further discuss that, Ms. Bibles, the
2 Chamber has considered, of course, the submissions by the Defence, and
3 without going into every detail yet at this moment, on one issue the
4 Chamber has reached a conclusion which is that the last two paragraphs, I
5 think it's 218 and 219 that it's not much inclined to admit those two
6 paragraphs. I'm not talking about 217 which is dealt with in the same
7 comments by the Defence, but 218 and 219. The Chamber would strongly
8 advise you to strike them from the document you seek to have admitted.
9 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honour, we'll do that at this time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You'll do that. You'll do that. Okay. Then are
11 there any further submissions in relation to the associated exhibits?
12 But perhaps we start with the -- with the statement itself. After we've
13 now heard the evidence of the witness, Mr. Lukic, is there anything you'd
14 like to add to the objections that were raised in your response to the
15 motion in which the 92 ter statement was --
16 MR. LUKIC: We have nothing further, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further.
18 MR. LUKIC: Nothing further.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is there anything you'd like to further
20 raise in relation to the 92 ter statement, any further reply to the
21 Defence objections?
22 MS. BIBLES: With respect to this statement, no, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. Okay. The Chamber will decide on it.
24 Now, associated exhibits.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides the matter immediately. We have
2 of course had detailed submissions. The Chamber admits into evidence the
3 92 ter statement of Mr. Rose on the assumption that, as you just said,
4 218 and 219 are removed from it. I take it you'll upload it soon.
5 MS. BIBLES: We will, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number to be assigned would be.
7 THE REGISTRAR: P736, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P736 is admitted into evidence. It is the statement
9 of the 92 ter statement of General Rose without paragraphs 218 and 219.
10 Associated exhibits.
11 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, Mr. Lukic --
12 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Registrar, you could remind us what the
15 65 ter number was, because I take it that either -- would it keep the
16 same number once a new version will be uploaded?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 28619 was previously
18 MFI'd as P728.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, about associated exhibits.
20 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, over the break Mr. Lukic and I had an
21 opportunity to go through the exhibits, both the associated exhibits.
22 The exhibits which were used on cross-examination and exhibits -- any
23 remaining exhibits used by the Prosecution, and I believe we have reached
24 agreement, and I could go through that list or I could provide the list
25 in whatever format that the Court would like.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- how many are there remaining?
3 MS. BIBLES: Approximately -- it's over 20, Your Honour, less
4 than 30.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Over 20. I suggest the following: You put them on
6 a list. You give it to Mr. Registrar. He provisionally assigns numbers
7 to them, and then we receive that list with the assigned numbers and the
8 description of the document, of course, and then we'll decide on
9 admission, and we do it in one swing.
10 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: As my learned friend noticed, we did agree on -- on
13 those documents, only I would like to have two more admitted from the
14 associated exhibits list.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please then -- I think two we
16 could -- if you would just give the numbers then.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes. It's 8146 and 8147.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 8146 would receive number?
19 THE REGISTRAR: D131, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 THE REGISTRAR: D132, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D132 is admitted, and we will have the list of 20
25 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, may I be excused at this time?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are excused Ms. Bibles.
3 MR. LUKIC: May I be excused as well, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope that not everyone leaves this courtroom
5 this morning because we are the last ones to switch off the light. No.
6 You're excused, Mr. Lukic, of course.
7 Yes, for the Prosecution.
8 MS. HARBOUR: Yes. We're ready to call the next witness, but
9 before he's brought in I would like to make a brief submission.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Harbour. Yes. Before he will be brought
11 in, we will have to have the curtains down anyhow, because protective
12 measures in place are face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym,
13 which are leftovers from previous cases.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore when the witness enters the courtroom
16 for those -- for that short moment, the curtain should be down. Any
17 other matter?
18 MS. HARBOUR: Just one very brief matter. During proofing, the
19 Prosecution provided this upcoming witness, RM046, with a list of names
20 associated with the KP Dom Foca incidents that are charged, and we
21 requested the witness to provide information -- any information he had on
22 these individuals, and we will seek to tender the chart with his
23 comments. Unfortunately, the translation of the chart is not yet
24 complete, so the Prosecution requests that Your Honours allow us to
25 conduct the direct examination today and briefly re-open for the sole
1 purpose of laying a foundation for and tendering this chart on Monday,
2 and we've already spoken with the Defence about this, and they've
3 indicated that they have no objection.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If that is the case, it's agreeable to the Chamber
5 as well to proceed as suggested.
6 Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom, curtains
7 first being down.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Officially we are in closed session now. We move
10 into closed session for the witness to enter the courtroom.
11 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 Witness RM046, could I invite you to make the solemn declaration
21 of which the text was already handed out to you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: RM046
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you. Please be seated.
2 Witness RM046 --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- your testimony will be given under protective
5 measures, that is face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym.
6 Please keep in mind that if any of the questions would require in an
7 answer to reveal information which again could reveal your identity,
8 please do not hesitate to ask me to go into private session.
9 Ms. Harbour, are you ready to examine the witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Ms. Harbour.
12 Ms. Harbour is counsel for the Prosecution.
13 Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please first have 65 ter 28549 on the
15 screen. And this should not be aired to the public.
16 Examination by Ms. Harbour:
17 Q. Witness RM046, the Trial Chamber has explained the protective
18 measures that apply to your testimony today, and I would like to ask you
19 to take a look at this pseudonym sheet, and I direct your attention to
20 where it says "Witness name." Is that your name?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, directing your attention to where it says "Date of birth,"
23 could you confirm that that is your date of birth?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this under seal, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Harbour, would you please not forget to
2 switch off your microphone when the witness answers any question.
3 No objection.
4 Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P737, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence under seal.
7 MS. HARBOUR:
8 Q. Witness RM046, do you recall giving statements to the Prosecution
9 in April 1996 and in October 1998?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Did you also testify in the Krnojelac case?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Did you meet with the Prosecution in November of 2012 to review
14 the statements from April 1996 and October 1998, and also to review a
15 short excerpt of your testimony from the Krnojelac case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At that time, did you provide another statement which contained
18 corrections and clarifications of the prior statements and testimony and
19 some additional information as well?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you meet again with the Prosecution to review and sign that
22 new statement on the 19th of December, 2012?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just prior to testifying today, did you again review each of your
25 statements and identify some changes that you wished to make?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you review and sign a new proofing note containing only the
3 corrections that you identified from the statements that you gave in 1996
4 and 2012? Did you review and sign that this morning?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
7 accuracy and the truthfulness of your statements from 1996, from 1998,
8 from 2012, and the corrections contained in the note that you signed this
9 morning on the 18th of January, 2013?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Do you also affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the excerpt
12 of the testimony in Krnojelac that you reviewed which related to your
13 experience in Kula?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If asked the same questions that you were asked while providing
16 these prior statements and testimony, would you provide the same
17 responses in substance?
18 A. I would. They would be the same.
19 MS. HARBOUR: In light of this, Your Honours, I would like to
20 tender each of these prior statements, and I can list them one by one.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, it's commonly -- these documents are
22 commonly shown to the witness. That's the standing practice before
23 admission is sought. I don't know whether there's any specific reason
24 why you do not, but it also may be that if there's -- if the Defence
25 would agree on the 65 ter documents does not in any way contest that
1 these are the statements given by the witness and it is the transcript of
2 the testimony given by the witness and the proofing notes, then of course
3 we could consider to proceed in that way, but without explanation, I
4 think we should not proceed as you suggest.
5 MS. HARBOUR: If you'd like, I'll show each of these to the
6 witness, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I gave two options. The second is more efficient,
8 but you would need the response by the Defence.
9 Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will not object to the way
11 you proposed for things to be done.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that the Defence then accepts that the
13 documents uploaded under the 65 ter numbers Ms. Harbour will use are --
14 in effect it will not challenge that these are the statements given by
15 the witness and signed by the witness; is that correct, Mr. Stojanovic?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we proceed along this procedure. Could you
19 please mention the 65 ter numbers.
20 MS. HARBOUR: The 1996 statement is 65 ter 28546.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P738, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P738 is admitted under seal.
24 MS. HARBOUR: The 1998 statement is 65 ter 28547.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P739, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
3 MS. HARBOUR: The excerpt from the Krnojelac testimony is
4 65 ter 28548.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P740, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
8 MS. HARBOUR: The December 2012 statement is 65 ter 28628.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P741, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal.
12 MS. HARBOUR: Finally, the signed proofing note containing
13 corrections is 65 ter 28652.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P742, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted under seal. Ms. Harbour, you did not make
17 any distinction tendering under seal or not. One could wonder whether
18 the transcript from the Krnojelac case would need to be admitted under
19 seal because a pseudonym was used there as well, but I wanted to remain
20 on the safe side, but could you please consider to what extent it's still
21 needed to have that one under seal. Not necessarily now, but in the
22 hours and days to come.
23 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, it is not necessary for that one to
24 be under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then P740, the status of P740 is changed into
1 public -- a public exhibit. Please proceed.
2 MS. HARBOUR: The Prosecution also seeks to tender two associated
3 exhibits which are associated to the December 2012 statements, and these
4 are 65 ter numbers 14073 and 14137.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, 14073.
8 THE REGISTRAR: P743, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Any need to have it under
11 MS. HARBOUR: No, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then 14137.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P744, Your Honours.
14 MS. HARBOUR: And this can be public.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P744 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
16 MS. HARBOUR: With your leave, I would like to read a public
17 summary onto the record.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. You have explained to the witness the
19 purpose of it.
20 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, I have.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. HARBOUR: Witness RM046 lived in Foca leading up to the
24 He was arrested on 11 April 1992, shortly after the conflict
25 started. He was first detained in a military hangar in Livade before
1 being transferred to the KP Dom Foca prison on 17 April.
2 While at KP Dom, the witness observed mistreatment of detainees
3 and was himself assaulted by guards and interrogated. The detainees were
4 civilians, largely Bosniak, and included the elderly and physically and
5 mentally ill. The witness observed a large number of people being taken
6 from KP Dom, never to be heard from again. Others died from the bad
7 conditions in the prison and inadequate medical care. After the
8 conflict, the witness learned through his relationships with the victims'
9 families and his involvement with a NGO and Missing Persons Commissions
10 that many of the people he knew were at KP Dom were later exhumed from
11 mass graves.
12 Witness RM046 heard speeches by SDS politicians, Velibor Ostojic
13 and Vojislav Maksimovic, on Radio Foca to the effect that Muslims and
14 Serbs could not live together. He also heard a news report that
15 Miroslav Stanic, the head of the SDS in Foca, had gone to Ratko Mladic to
16 ask for military help. RM046 met several times with the KP Dom prison
17 warden, Krnojelac, who told him that KP Dom officials received orders
18 from the military command.
19 In July 1993, RM046 was transferred to the Kula prison where
20 conditions were similar. Here again, prisoners were mistreated. They
21 performed forced labour, and they were killed. He was in Kula for one
22 year before he was exchanged in June 1995.
23 Could I please have exhibit 65 ter 18578 on the screen.
24 Q. Witness RM046, in your evidence you mention many rooms in which
25 you were detained in KP Dom. Do you recognise what is depicted in this
1 document on the screen?
2 A. Yes. It is the building number 1 where I was at the beginning of
3 my detention.
4 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry. Sorry. No, this is the
6 building number 2 where there were about ten solitary cells on the ground
7 floor on the right-hand side.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
9 move away from the microphone as we cannot understand everything. He is
10 now too close.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please sit a bit further away from the
13 MS. HARBOUR: I would like to tender this into evidence,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objection?
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P745, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. P745 is admitted into
20 Perhaps next time, Ms. Harbour, you could have the view rotated
21 of a document which may make it easier for the witness to read any text
22 on it, although it's of relative advantage, but he has recognised it now.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. HARBOUR:
25 Q. Witness 046, in your 2012 statement, in paragraph 1, in the first
1 bullet point you discuss several mass graves. How did you come to know
2 about these graves? And if your response should be given in closed
3 session, please let us know.
4 A. Certainly. The mass graves were found after my release, and that
5 is when I found out that they existed. To be more precise, it was on the
6 15th of June, 1995. I was exchanged under the auspices of the
7 International Red Cross. Several years later, in 1998 more precisely,
8 exhumations began in all of the municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. At
9 first the exhumation and identification process in Bijeljina took place
10 based on witness statements, clothes recognition, or identification
11 papers that were found on the corpses or by visual examination. By 2001
12 or 2002, following the exhumations, there was an identification process
13 undertaken by the international commission relying on DNA analysis in
14 order to identify any killed persons precisely. If you wish, I may
15 enumerate the more important mass grave sites. Most of the sites --
16 Q. That's not necessary. What I would like for you to tell the
17 Chamber is how you knew about these graves.
18 A. I learned about the graves from the relatives of those killed,
19 their husbands, sons, et cetera. It was also through the state
20 commission for the missing persons, the international commission, and of
21 course through the NGO, the detainees association of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 which also engaged in looking for those who had been killed or went
24 Q. You list several of these graves in your statement. I'll just
25 read them to you, and if there are any more that contained the bodies of
1 KP Dom detainees, and let's limit it to the KP Dom detainees, if there
2 were any more, please let us know after I have read to you the ones in
3 your statement. Your statement speaks of Jama Piljak, Paunci, Buk
4 Bijela, Previla and Miljevina.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slow down because the interpreters
6 are behind now.
7 Could you now answer the question which was whether there are any
8 other graves you are aware of where KP Dom detainees were buried.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, also the Buk Bijela tunnel,
10 the Piljak pit, the mass grave in Dobro Polje, and the largest mass grave
11 is the River Drina, which unfortunately was not mentioned here.
12 MS. HARBOUR: Could we please have 65 ter 14072 on the screen.
13 Q. Witness RM046, the document that will shortly appear is entitled:
14 "List of prisoners of war to be released from Foca prison because
15 it was established in the proceedings that they have not committed crimes
16 against the Serbian people."
17 And it's dated 18 September 1992, signed by M. Kovac. Do you
18 have any information about what happened to the people on this list?
19 A. Yes. Most of them, or basically everyone -- perhaps we can go
20 name by name. I could tell you what happened with them. One also needs
21 to remember what took place in August and September in the detention
22 centre. Whatever happened in the front lines had catastrophic
23 consequences for us, the detainees.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we limit ourselves to the people on this list.
25 Not necessarily all one by one, but could you give a description of what
1 happened to them or most of them.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I think
3 that this document was written later on the date after these people were
4 taken out. This was on the 17th of September, 1992, when it went by
5 rooms. From each room five to seven people were taken out. It wasn't 35
6 people but 45 people.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to move back
8 from the microphone.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I again ask you to be a bit further
10 away from the microphone. Perhaps the microphones could be adjusted.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I need to repeat what I said
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, there's no need to do that. Please continue
14 your answer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, everything that happened
16 in the field at the front had a lot of negative repercussions for us who
17 were in the camps. Specifically I'm talking about the Foca camp here,
18 the KP Dom, but this happened in the other camps as well. I said that
19 this list was drafted subsequently after a group of 45 people were taken
20 out of the rooms that were there. I can mention a number of people who
21 were taken out of my room. Number 18. I was there when this was
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please focus your answer on the question;
24 that is, what happened to them. What was their fate? You have now told
25 us that they were taken out of the rooms the day prior to the date of
1 this document. What happened to them?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were all taken out, and
3 they were all killed. Many of them have been exhumed, and what is
4 characteristic is that whenever a group of this size was taken out, it
5 was never the case that they were killed and buried in the same mass
6 grave. So we can find these people in a number of mass graves.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. If Ms. Harbour would be
8 interested to know more, she will ask you about it. Your answer,
9 therefore, is these people were not released but taken out of the rooms
10 the previous day and were all killed. That is, I understand, your
12 Please proceed, Ms. Harbour.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
14 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to tender this into evidence,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 14072 shall be assigned
18 Exhibit P746.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
20 MS. HARBOUR:
21 Q. You've just told us that when something happened on the
22 battle-field, that had a effect on the KP Dom detainees. And please
23 answer my -- listen to my question and only answer the question. Were
24 you ever informed by someone that KP Dom detainees were taken out in
1 A. Formulated in that way that they were taken out in retaliation,
2 no, but a Serb who found himself in prison later, he told me. I knew him
3 well from before. He knew me as well. He told me, It's a good thing
4 that you were not exchanged, because all the exchanges to date are
5 suspicious. This was in May 1993.
6 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with someone named
7 Dr. Dragovic about any of these issues?
8 A. Yes. The colleague that you mentioned, I know him. We worked
9 together. At the beginning, he was engaged by Mr. Krnojelac to provide
10 certain medical assistance to us, because at the time there were many
11 people in the camp, some 6- to 700, according to some people in the camp,
12 of all ages, and at one time when the offensive on Gorazde began, they
13 probably suffered certain losses. And then this colleague that you
14 mentioned told me that, It's very dangerous for you here. I asked him.
15 This was in the medical station. I said, Why? He said, People -- three
16 to five Muslims will be taken out and killed from here depending on their
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, first of all, if you want the witness
19 to focus on your question, if he moves away from it, you should take him
20 back to what your question was. Now, it may well be that all he tells us
21 is what you had in mind to ask him, but that's unclear for the Chamber.
22 Witness, the simple question was did you ever have any
23 conversations on these issues. So the simple answer is yes, and then
24 Ms. Harbour will ask further questions about specific matters she's
25 interested in.
1 Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.
2 MS. HARBOUR:
3 Q. I would just like to ask you to complete that last thought you
4 had. You said that Mr. -- Dr. Dragovic told you three to five Muslims
5 would be taken out and killed depending on their function. Did he say
6 why they would be taken out and killed?
7 A. Yes. He clarified it. If any Serb is killed at the front,
8 depending on his function -- actually, this actually did happen.
9 Q. If you could just clarify. When you say any Serb was killed at
10 the front, depending on his function, what did you mean by that?
11 A. Simply it's an opportunity for the Serbs, the fact that they have
12 Muslims available who are going to make up in this case for their
13 casualties in battle.
14 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
15 witness until we re-open our direct examination on Monday, for the sole
16 purpose of the chart.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is understood.
18 Mr. Stojanovic, we have another ten minutes to go unless you
19 would prefer to have an early break. Apparently you prefer to start.
20 Witness RM046, you'll now be cross -- you'll now be
21 cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
22 Mr. Mladic, who is, and perhaps I should explain that to you, has waived
23 his right today to be present in court.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
1 need your guidance now. Are we going to be working an hour or an hour
2 and 15 minutes in this block?
3 JUDGE ORIE: I left it to some extent to you. If you have, for
4 example, the expectation that by taking a break now Mr. Mladic would be
5 able to attend the beginning of the cross-examination, feel free to ask
6 for a break now. If you would prefer to start your examination, we'll
7 then take a break in anything between 10 and 20 minutes from now.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if Mr. Mladic will
9 appear or not, but there is a possibility that he will appear, and in
10 view of his wish to be in the -- in the courtroom, perhaps it would be a
11 good idea to go on a break now. I also wanted to note that my short --
12 my cross-examination will be shorter than we announced.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Shorter meaning what? Two minutes shorter or half
14 an hour short or an hour?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Half an hour or more,
16 Your Honour, that much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's take a break first, but we have to
18 move into closed session. But we'll take a break and we'll resume at
19 25 minutes to 1.00.
20 We first turn into closed session.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 7021-7022 redacted. Closed session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, reading through the chart during the
22 next break might assist you as well.
23 MS. HARBOUR: We could provide this ...
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, may I take it that you do not oppose that a copy
4 of the chart will be given to the witness and that I give the
5 instructions to the witness?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but I would
7 also like it if we were to receive a copy of the chart so that we can
8 look it -- look at it as well. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Has it not been provided yet without the English
10 version, first of all, to the Prosecution, Ms. Harbour?
11 MS. HARBOUR: I just received it, and I showed it to
12 Mr. Stojanovic just now. I'm preparing to send him --
13 JUDGE ORIE: There was a copy --
14 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The English version has been made available earlier,
16 I take it?
17 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So, Mr. Stojanovic, you have both copies now so some
19 homework to be done for the next break.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue and see if we can conclude today.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Since I
23 will be using P738, with your leave, I would like to ask that the witness
24 be given a copy of the statement that we will be using. This is a
25 redacted version. But just in case, for the sake of caution, we would
1 prefer this to be under seal. This is P738, the B/C/S version, statement
2 made on the 19th and 20th of April, 1996.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is already in evidence. Yes. Please
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I wanted to go through your statement
8 and to get some clarifications from you, and I also would like us to be
9 careful when mentioning names.
10 You say that before the war broke out, you were a member of the
11 Main Board of the SDA. What I would like to know is what your specific
12 duties were?
13 A. I didn't have any particular duties other than that I was a
14 member of the local organisation of the SDA.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And how many people were there in the Main Board at the time?
18 A. In the beginning there were 12. Later it expanded to 15.
19 Q. And did you take part in talks about the division of power in the
20 municipality where you come from?
21 A. No, not directly. I was a member of a commission for the
22 appointment to posts, but these negotiations actually never took part
23 because the Serb side would always find some reason to postpone this
24 discussion. They simply were not interested in appointing certain cadres
25 to the posts signed to the Muslims or to the Serbs.
1 Q. And the meetings that you attended, was there any discussion
2 about the arming of the Bosniak population?
3 A. No, because we still had a lot of confidence in the former JNA.
4 Q. And did you know anything about the distribution of weapons and
5 military equipment according to ethnicity?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You were brought in on the 11th of April, 1992. Is that the
8 correct date?
9 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I was not taken in. I was captured. There is a
10 difference between being taken in or brought in and being captured. My
11 hands were tied at the place where I worked, where I used to work for 25
13 Q. And who did that?
14 A. This was done by people unknown to me. These were actually
15 members of the JNA who told me and my director and the drivers -- they
16 tied our hands, actually. But Serbs familiar to me helped them. They
17 entered the medical centre earlier, sometime before noon. They were
18 armed with infantry weapons and 48s and Kalashnikovs. They were dressed
19 in former JNA uniforms. The unit was under the command of
20 Radomir Cicmil, aka Cile. He had the rank of captain. He introduced
21 himself to us as being in charge of that squad. There were some 10 to 12
22 people there -- I'm sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Most of all this is in the name of the statement.
24 The name of the commander, that he knew some of them, how they came.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, could you please put focused questions on relevant issues
1 and especially issues that you wish to challenge. Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did not ask
3 this of the witness. The question was much simpler, but the witness just
5 Q. Sir, let's try to focus on what my questions are specifically.
6 This arrest and capture, according to you, does that have anything to do
7 with your political activities?
8 A. No, no. It was just that I was a Muslim and that I was in favour
9 of a different option.
10 Q. When you say a different option, what do you mean by that?
11 A. Well, I wasn't in the SDS, but I was in the SDA, and the option
12 implied reasonable life together with neighbours and Serbs. It did not
13 include preparations for war.
14 Q. So I would be right if I were to say that this capture of yours
15 directly had to do with your political engagement in the
16 Party for Democratic Action; is that correct?
17 A. No. No. How can you get that out of it if I said that the
18 capture was the result of my being a Muslim and that I belonged to a
19 different option? Perhaps you can take it in that context a little bit,
20 but not absolutely as the decisive factor. It had nothing to do with it
21 that I was a member of the SDA, because it didn't bother me that all the
22 Serbs were in the SDS and that there was an organisation where they could
23 come together and agree on what to do. There were more Muslims than
24 Serbs in Foca, and it never bothered me personally that an organisation
25 existed that would gather each ethnic group where they would sit and
1 discuss their life and goings-on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question has been answered.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, I think you could have concluded that five lines ago as
4 well. Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. At the time, were there political options where you were from
7 that did not have any national or ethnic qualifiers?
8 A. Yes. There were several. There were reformists in favour of
9 Yugoslavia. This was the party of Ante Markovic. There were also
10 Communists. It wasn't a significant number, but they did have a
11 representative each in the Municipal Assembly.
12 Q. After you spent five days at Livade, you were transferred to the
13 KP Dom Foca?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm asking you this: When you came, can you remember who the
16 warden was of KP Dom in Foca?
17 A. I was transferred from Livade on the 17th, late at night, and
18 then the following day on the 18th I learned that the camp commander was
19 Milorad Krnojelac. (redacted)
21 Q. And are you able to tell us if you know who was the KP Foca
22 warden before Milorad Krnojelac?
23 A. Yes. This was Radojica Tesovic.
24 Q. Can we now look at 65 ter document 11167 in e-court, please. The
25 document is not under seal, Your Honours.
1 Sir, according to your best recollection, who was charge of KP
2 Foca at the time? Which jurisdiction was it under?
3 A. It was under the jurisdiction of the SDS or the
4 Territorial Defence of the Serbian Democratic Party.
5 Q. And can we agree that it was a correctional facility where
6 convicts throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina would serve their long prison
7 sentences, and they came from all other Yugoslavia; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also addressing you, Mr. Groome. Is there any
10 dispute about Mr. Krnojelac being the warden and being appointed by the
11 minister of justice in, say, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 MS. HARBOUR: No dispute, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are useless questions apart from that part
14 of it is already in the statement. Mr. Stojanovic, could I really urge
15 you to immediately move to matters in dispute and relevant to the case.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I
17 would just like to tender this document 11167.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Although agreed upon. No objections I take it.
19 MS. HARBOUR: No objections, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D133, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Please proceed to relevant
23 and disputed issues.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Sir, can you please tell us if the guards in KP Dom were
1 employees of the justice ministry?
2 A. The KP Dom staff, specifically the guards, were working there
3 from before. I assume that they were appointed by the commander, the
4 camp commander, Mr. Krnojelac, to their duties.
5 Q. And can we agree that these were not members of the
6 Army of Republika Srpska?
7 A. No, but members of the Army of Republika Srpska in the beginning
8 frequently would come in, enter the rooms. They would search us, and
9 this went on for some 10 or 15 days after the arrest of the Muslims from
11 Q. I will ask you about that as well. Can you please just answer my
12 questions. So the staff at the KP Dom were not members of the
13 Army of Republika Srpska.
14 A. Yes, that is correct. But actually I must correct myself. For
15 15 days they did carry out these duties that we discussed, and they were
16 wearing these uniforms that were well known to me, blue uniforms, but
17 then for the subsequent 15 days they would go to the front throughout
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina and then they would probably be wearing proper
19 military uniforms. We found out this from the work platoons, because
20 some 40 to 50 people would leave every day to work on the farms or in
21 some other work units that the KP Dom had even before the war.
22 Q. After you came to the KP Dom on the 17th of April, you said that
23 for the first 15 days soldiers did come. Can you please tell us what
24 they did there.
25 A. They conducted searches. They confiscated jewellery. They
1 abused people. In that period there was a group of guards from Uzice as
3 Q. And can we agree that this is the period before the
4 Army of Republika Srpska was formed that was still during the time of the
6 A. That means that I am speaking the truth, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Q. I will repeat my question. Do we agree that this was during the
8 period when the JNA still existed and that this was the period when the
9 Army of Republika Srpska was still not formed?
10 A. Yes. The Army of Republika Srpska was officially formed on the
11 12th of May, 1992. Up until then, there was the Territorial Defence
12 which actually transformed into the Army of Republika Srpska.
13 Q. Let us look at 65 ter document 08444. This document needn't be
14 under seal either, Your Honour.
15 The date is the 18th of June, 1992. As you can see on the next
16 page, it was signed by the War Presidency president, Miroslav Stanic.
17 In the third paragraph of the document it reads:
18 "The current military and civilian authorities of the Serbian
19 municipality of Foca have thus far forbidden to both groups to leave the
20 territory of Foca municipality. It is quite normal that any family would
21 like to and want to live together. That is why it comes as no surprise
22 that there is ever-increasing pressure on the military and civilian
24 In item 1 the document states:
25 "The civilian and military authorities shall allow all loyal
1 citizens who have not violated the laws of the BH Serbian Republic or
2 done anything in this still-ongoing bar to endanger the safety of the
3 Serbian people in our area to leave in the direction of their choice."
4 Do you have any knowledge about this document and the issues
5 discussed therein?
6 A. This is simply not true. They did not allow Muslims to leave the
7 town of Foca of their own free will. This is nebulous, drafted by
8 Commander Stanic whom I knew personally.
9 Q. In June 1992, was there freedom of movement for the entire
10 population of Foca municipality by that time?
11 A. No. No. Please allow me to clarify. As soon as conflicts broke
12 out, most of the able-bodied men were arrested or captured and taken to
13 the KP Dom in Foca. That was in town. While some of them managed to
14 flee in the direction of Trnovo. In the town itself, what was left was
15 basically the elderly, women, and children. Whoever was able to escape
16 that hell had to cross the Drina, which had very high levels at that time
17 of year, but people were prepared to do anything to escape the hell of
19 Q. If you have such knowledge, could you tell us whether parts of
20 Foca municipality were controlled by members of the
21 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. No, because by that time that army had not been formed.
23 Q. Are you familiar with the existence of certain elements of the
24 Patriotic League in the territory of Foca municipality at the time?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know that in the general area of Foca municipality, in
2 the direction of Gorazde and Tjentiste at the time there was combat?
3 A. Yes. At the foot of the hills in the direction of those places
4 there was some combat, especially in the direction of Gorazde. All
5 able-bodied men from Foca were engaged in defending Gorazde straight
7 Q. Ustikolina, who controlled it at the time?
8 A. On the 26th of April, it was taken over by Serb forces, and they
9 continued further afield to Osanice, which is some 20 kilometres away.
10 They were stopped there. Throughout the war the line remained the same.
11 There were no movements any more.
12 Q. In the course of the first several months of your stay in
13 KP Foca, were there any captured members of the Bosniak army, the TO, the
14 Patriotic League, the Green Berets, or later the Army of BH?
15 A. No. Everyone who was there was civilian. If anyone happened to
16 be captured at the front lines who belonged to the Muslim side, they were
17 never brought in there. They were liquidated right there and then.
18 Q. How would you know that?
19 A. Well, I do. If I were to describe Bosnia-Herzegovina as a large
20 patchwork, within that patchwork Foca was but a piece. But the worst
21 things happened there with regards to people and property.
22 Q. I'm asking you how you know that such people were killed on the
23 spot when captured. Did you have occasion to see that?
24 A. I didn't have occasion to see soldiers killing someone like that,
25 but later on when I was exchanged, I learned that such things happened,
1 and such soldiers who were killed in that way were then used by the Serb
2 side to have exchanges of the killed. There was such practice in place
3 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina. The sides exchanged their dead.
4 Q. My question was this: Did you have any direct knowledge in order
5 for you to be able to assert that soldiers were not being captured?
6 A. There were no captured soldiers who were brought to the KP Dom in
8 Q. During your stay in the KP Dom in Foca were you interrogated?
9 A. Yes, twice. The interrogation was carried out by Zoran Vladic
10 whom I knew personally. He used to be a scene of crime officer with the
11 Ministry of the Interior.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I read from the witness statement:
13 "I was interrogated twice during my time in KP Dom."
14 What is the use of asking whether he was interrogated unless you
15 have serious reasons to challenge that? That's -- it's not here to hear
16 the story again. It is -- you are expected to cross-examine the witness
17 on the evidence he has given. Would you please do that.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rely on this
19 precisely because of the people who took statements from this witness.
20 That is why I simply wanted the witness to confirm. I do not dispute
21 what he said.
22 Q. I wanted to ask you the following: Save for the gentleman you
23 mentioned, who else interrogated you?
24 A. No one else did, but I was captured and taken to a solitary cell
25 in building number one on the third evening. I spent there four days and
1 four nights. The people involved were guardsmen and the prison guards.
2 Q. I'll try again. My question is this: Please tell the Court what
3 you were interrogated about.
4 A. He wanted to know where I was before my capture, where I moved,
5 whether I possessed any weapons, and that was it. Mr. Vladic knew me all
6 too well, and they found nothing in my apartment. I had no reason to be
7 concerned about such an interrogation.
8 Q. Did you sign any kind of statement?
9 A. Yes, I had to. It was customary to have such statements signed,
10 because the interrogator would require that.
11 Q. You were interrogated by the employees of the KP Dom, not by
13 A. Yes. I think at the time they were designated to those
14 positions, and they were in charge of interrogating or, as they called
15 it, processing detainees. There was Mr. Koprivica and then someone known
16 as Miso as well as Vojo Starovic.
17 Q. In addition to those men, do you know whether anybody else
18 interrogated detainees during your stay in the KP Dom in Foca?
19 A. Yes. There was a room used for torture, if I may say so. That's
20 where military policemen came at first, and they interrogated and
21 tortured prisoners who came after I did, and they told me what kind of
22 torture they had been put through.
23 Q. You did not see that?
24 A. I didn't. One couldn't see through walls. But if you have
25 someone who had lived through such torture come to your cell and they
1 tell you about it and I can see numerous bruises caused by blunt
2 instruments, then of course it tells me that it was indeed done.
3 Q. Except for the occasion when you were brought to the KP Dom in
4 Foca, otherwise you were not beaten.
5 A. I was. There was a guardsman who hit me with the baton on the
6 back. Another one came and slapped me around as well. Standing next to
7 us were the policemen, Serb guards, who did not stop that. Following
8 that I was taken to the solitary cell.
9 Q. From that moment on until the 5th of July, 1993, when you were
10 transferred to the KP Kula facility, you were not further abused or
12 A. I was not physically mistreated, but I was mistreated in other
14 Q. Were you able to assist the people (redacted)?
15 A. Only in the presence of policemen, when Gojko Jokanovic, the
16 nurse, allowed or requested for it to be done. He wasn't qualified to
17 administer any kind of aid. There had been a physician, a doctor, but as
18 of March he had fled Foca.
19 Q. During your stay in KP Foca, you received three meals a day;
21 A. Yes. But it was enough to keep you alive, nothing more.
22 Q. How were you accommodated? Were there any beds?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the previous question. The
24 statement reads, "We were fed regularly this whole time at KP Dom."
25 Therefore, you're seeking, apart from that the answer might not only
1 favour your case but there's no need to ask again what is already clearly
2 in the statement, and I waited until your next question to know for sure
3 that there was no follow-up. Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will abide
5 by your instruction.
6 Q. The food you were given, can you tell the Court where it was
7 prepared and cooked and then given to you?
8 A. Yes. It was in front of the restaurant where they had a trellis,
9 and they had large cauldrons where food was prepared for the detainees,
10 and in the mess itself it was served upon us.
11 Q. The food was not prepared by the army, it was prepared by the
12 management and staff of the KP Dom in Foca; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. I'd like to discuss Mr. Kovac you mentioned. I
15 wanted to draw your attention to paragraph -- the first paragraph on
16 page 8 in the B/C/S, which is paragraph 45. At least that's how I marked
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In the English, Your Honour, it
19 is page 8, the fourth paragraph.
20 Q. Perhaps you can find it in your hard copy.
21 A. Which page?
22 Q. In the B/C/S version, it is page 8, the first paragraph. Let me
23 ask you this: What is your knowledge concerning the man whom you knew as
24 Commander Kovac?
25 A. I know he had been an officer with the former JNA before the war
1 and that his rank was that of captain. The Foca SDS invited him and
2 another 11 officers to take part in the war effort against Muslims. He
3 was appointed as one of the senior commanders of what was to become the
4 Foca Brigade. At first it was called the Foca Tactical Group or the
5 Drina group. I'm not sure.
6 Q. Did you ever have occasion to see him there?
7 A. No, I did not, but he was well described to me by the Cengic
8 cousins. They told me he was short, very strict, and in conversation
9 with the three of them, he told them that now was the right time to
10 settle accounts with Muslims and that Muslims would never live in Foca
11 again, that it was Serbian land. He also told them that he was sorry to
12 have them transported to Belgrade. It was in January 1993, and the
13 conversation took place in the camp warden's office.
14 Q. You didn't attend the conversation?
15 A. I did not, but the words were conveyed to me by the people I
16 trust to the fullest.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness said that he never had occasion to
18 see him, how could he possibly attend a conversation between the source
19 of his knowledge and the person involved? And if you look at the
20 statement, you see that the person is described as a short person. I
21 wouldn't need that description if I would have seen the person.
22 So, Mr. Stojanovic, please do what you're expected to do in the
23 interest of your client.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
25 wanted to finish with this question.
1 Q. Everything that you've just said in relation to Mr. Kovac is
2 information that you got from other people; is that correct?
3 JUDGE ORIE: That was the answer to the previous question, "I did
4 not attend, but the words were conveyed." He has never seen the person,
5 and he describes what information was given about a conversation these
6 other people had. Superfluous question. Next one, please.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave.
8 Q. In the paragraph that I showed you, you say, in describing Kovac
9 in the same way:
10 "They talked with him at the KP Dom sometime in April 1993."
11 Please, who was it that talked in April?
12 A. I'm sorry, there was a correction made. It is the
13 15th of January, actually, because in previous documents --
14 Q. And then when you say "they," you mean the gentleman that you
15 mentioned just a bit earlier?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then you say:
18 "After my complaints, there were some slight changes."
19 Who did you address your complaints to?
20 A. In order improve the situation for the inmates.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: To whom did you address those complaints, because
23 that was the question put to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were objections made to the
25 warden on two occasions when seeing him that he could do something to
1 improve the situation, and also there was a complaint addressed to the
2 deputy of the council.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the name you mentioned, the deputy
5 of the council. Did you give a name?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Savo Todovic, Todovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Next question, please.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. When you said that after my complaints there was some slight
10 changes, what happened? What did you mean?
11 A. Well, after a month or two they gave us another small slice of
12 bread. That's what the use was of that conversation. But I think that
13 that was in 1993.
14 Q. And did you speak with Mr. Todovic or with Mr. Krnojelac?
15 A. With both of them.
16 Q. And can you please tell me who did you talk about regarding your
18 A. You mean at the KP Dom?
19 Q. I'm talking about the Foca KP Dom, before you left for Kula.
20 A. I spoke with the warden, Krnojelac.
21 Q. Kovac, whom you mentioned, had nothing to do with your status or
22 with your exchange; is that correct?
23 A. Well, I really couldn't rule that out or I couldn't confirm it,
24 because he was the superior of the civilian affairs sector at the KP Dom.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber has considered the
1 development of the cross-examination. We unfortunately had to establish
2 that the majority of your questions find already a relatively precise
3 answer in the statement. You asked him, for example, the last, did you
4 speak to Mr. Todovic and Mr. Krnojelac. That's in the second statement.
5 It's clear that the witness spoke with them. That's -- I would say
6 70 per cent of your questions are related to matters which are already in
7 the statement despite the fact that we invited you again and again not to
8 do that.
9 We approach the matter differently. During the next break,
10 you'll have an opportunity, apart from looking at the chart, you have an
11 opportunity to review your questions against the statements which were
12 tendered by the Prosecution and which were admitted. Then you have
13 another 15 minutes to put questions to the witness and that is it.
14 Meanwhile, we'll invite the witness, Witness RM046, a translation
15 in your own language of a chart is available now. We'd like you to
16 carefully read during the next break that chart and your comments. What
17 we're interested to know at the end is whether it reflects accurately
18 your comments and whether the comments are true to the best of your
19 knowledge. We'd like to hear that from you after the break.
20 If you would please be so kind as to do that.
21 Then we current into closed session in order for you to be able
22 to leave the courtroom, and the chart will be handed out to you --
23 Mr. Stojanovic, would you still wish to inspect the chart as given to the
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will also
1 look at it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, at this moment you're invited to look at whether
3 this is -- whether you have any objection against this to be given to the
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The chart is handed out to you now.
7 We move into closed session.
8 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, you have time until 10 minutes past 2.00. Please
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, I'm going to put just a few things to you, and I would like
13 you to look at paragraph 43 of your statement. This is page 7, the one
14 paragraph but last in the B/C/S, and then in the English it's page 2, the
15 second paragraph.
16 And now you are looking at the list. I would like you to
17 actually look at your statement, sir.
18 A. My pages are not numbered, so can you please tell me exactly
19 which number.
20 Q. Sir, I think that you're looking at the list you received just
21 before the break, not at your statement.
22 A. Well, I don't think that I received it. I have the previous
24 Q. Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
25 A. Well, go ahead.
1 Q. Could you please look at page 7, the penultimate paragraph in the
2 B/C/S version?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, did you say that we must look at
4 page 2 in the English?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it's the
6 interpretation. It's page 8, paragraph 2 on that page.
7 Q. Sir, what I would like to ask you about the forced labour is
8 this: Did you ever have information where the prisoners were taken
9 outside to work, outside of the KP Dom?
10 A. Yes. They went to the farm, and they did all the farming work.
11 There was some cattle there, pigs, cows, poultry, and that's the sort of
12 work that they did. Others went to chop wood during the winter. When
13 the weather was quite bad they would collect firewood both for the needs
14 of the KP Dom in order to prepare food, but not for our heating, however.
15 They also collected wood for some citizens of Foca. In the summer they
16 went to cut the grass in the meadows, to collect hay. They did all kinds
17 of physical labour, physical jobs.
18 Q. And the work that they did, they did it for the KP Dom
19 administration. Am I correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Also when they worked at the metal processing factory or the
22 furniture factory within the prison compound, these were facilities that
23 existed from before the war; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you say the furniture factory within
1 the prison compound. I see some in the furniture factory and other areas
2 outside the prison. So I'm a bit confused there. Unless I missed a
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps
5 I was hurrying. I'm familiar with that area.
6 Q. Sir, can you please explain where the physical location of the
7 facility for the manufacture of furniture is?
8 A. It's just outside of the wall of the KP Dom, but there was
9 another perimeter that actually went and included the furniture factory.
10 Q. So it would be correct to say that it was part of the overall
11 KP Dom facility?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at paragraph 37 together. This is
14 the last paragraph in pages 6 to 7 in the B/C/S version, and in the
15 English version this is page 7, the third paragraph.
16 My question to you is this: Do you know what the problem was
17 that the Serbs had around the 7th of September? You talk about that in
18 this part of your report.
19 A. Yes, I do. Should I clarify?
20 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you to do that.
21 A. I can see that there was a group of 45 people here taken out on
22 the 17th of September, and there was a serious incident for the Army of
23 Republika Srpska on the 7th of September while transporting weapons from
24 Kalinovik to Foca in order to secure the Foca Brigade. There was a
25 serious incident that occurred when all the weapons were lost and there
1 were casualties. All the personnel died.
2 Q. Can you please tell me how they died?
3 A. Since the Serbs had a vast arsenal of explosive devices and
4 mines, they were placing them everywhere without marking the maps
5 properly, and as the column of vehicles came by with the vehicles and the
6 personnel, they encountered a mine, and there was a pile-up, an accident,
7 and it all went up and turned to ashes. And I just want to add this for
8 the sake of the Chamber: This occurred not far from the village of
9 Ratine, which is in the Foca municipality area, and on the 5th of August,
10 a little bit earlier, the Serbs brought from Kalinovik, from
11 Jelisejsko Polje 24 men --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. The question was to
13 tell the Chamber how they died, and you have done that. Mr. Stojanovic
14 is limited in his time.
15 Please, next question, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Let us try and stay focused on what I am asking you about. Let
18 us go back to one detail. Where did you get that information that it
19 occurred due to a landmine planted by the Serb army?
20 A. Nezir Cengic was in the medical centre at the time. He had had a
21 heart infarction. He was there at the time. He saw many coffins in
22 front of the building, and later on when we met he told me everything in
24 Q. Did he also tell you that it happened because of a landmine
25 planted by the Serb army?
1 A. Yes, because the nurses and medical staff were discussing it.
2 That's how he knew.
3 Q. Thank you. Please tell us something about the KP Dom Kula where
4 you were transferred on the 5th of July, 1993. Under whose competence
5 was it?
6 A. It was controlled by civilian organs. However, they had superior
7 military structures following the same system that existed in Foca, in
8 Batkovic, and elsewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Q. Did you ever receive any kind of operational information that
10 KP Kula was under military authority?
13 Q. What were conditions like in KP Kula as opposed to Foca?
14 A. Pretty much the same. We were on the ground floor where there
15 was a lot of moisture, and there were poor hygiene conditions, much like
16 in Foca. The same goes for medical check-ups. It was very difficult to
17 see a physician. There were always guards there as an obstacle who
18 created problems for us to see doctors. On occasion in the evening when
19 we thought things were better, perhaps we could place a very sick young
20 person on a chair and carry him to the infirmary because he was a severe
21 diabetic. It just so happened that the next day he died.
22 Q. Let me ask you something else. The place
23 Rataj [Microphone not activated].
24 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Stojanovic's microphone is off.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. The village of Rataj, which is where you mentioned the VRS
2 soldiers were killed, was it deep inside VRS territory?
3 A. Sorry, it wasn't Rataj but Ratine. Yes, it is a village
4 bordering on Foca and Kalinovik.
5 Q. There was no combat there at the time?
6 A. No. It was in September. All of the forces and personnel on the
7 Muslim side had left Foca long ago. In Velibor Ostojic's report, he said
8 that Foca fell on the 26th of April.
9 Q. In your view or as you say in the statement, the ideologists
10 entire -- behind the entire situation there were Ostojic and another
11 person. Who were they?
12 A. They were elected representatives of the Serb people in the BH
13 parliament. Velibor Ostojic was the information minister, and
14 Maksimovic, who used to be a Serbo-Croatian professor at the school of
15 humanities, was appointed SDS club president in the BH parliament.
16 Q. In that period in 1992 and 1993, they were not part of the
17 military; correct?
18 A. I'm not certain about that. I don't think they were military.
19 Let me add this: But they were tasked with preparing the Serbs for war
20 in Foca, and they were tasked by the BH SDS Main Board.
21 Q. Where did you get that information?
22 A. From various sources. I even heard it over the radio. Until the
23 15th of August we could hear various radio stations, and we could hear
24 both of them speak on Radio Foca in that regard.
25 Q. Sir, let us not go into the names of towns, but tell me, was your
1 property returned to you?
2 A. Only partially. Let me explain. All that was left were the
3 walls of the apartment. There was no furniture or anything else.
4 Q. Did you renovate and reconstruct your housing unit?
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for the
8 two minutes, but I conclude with this question, and I'd like to thank the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Ms. Harbour, perhaps we first deal with the chart, but perhaps
12 first I ask the witness.
13 Were you able to read the chart and your comments in it,
14 Witness RM046?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to correct anything as you found
17 it in the chart?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I just wanted to add that I
19 was quite pleased to have been able to create this document. I owe you a
20 clarification. Perhaps you will ask yourselves how come I am aware of so
21 much information about every single person. (redacted)
23 JUDGE ORIE: We're not seeking such clarification. We take it
24 that you gave your comments to the best of your abilities and on the
25 basis of your experience and knowledge of the circumstances at the time.
1 We accept that.
2 Then, Ms. Harbour, is there any --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should just add that in
4 the Foca and Kula camp, I spent over 700 days changing cells, and I kept
5 running into other people who always acquainted me with the situation,
6 where they were, where they had worked, et cetera, and that's where much
7 of my information came from.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment there seems to be no challenge to the
9 source of your information.
10 Ms. Harbour, any need to put further questions to the witness? I
11 note in relation to that that, of course, re-examination is supposed to
12 deal with matters which arise from cross-examination. Well,
13 cross-examination, 90 per cent of what was raised was already in
14 evidence. There might not be much, but if there are any further
15 questions apart from tendering the chart, please put them to the witness
16 and tell us whether you need more than two or three minutes for that.
17 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honour, there is no need for redirect
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then you deal with the chart.
20 MS. HARBOUR: I will just deal with the chart. Could we please
21 have 65 ter 28654 on the screen. And this would be tendered under seal.
22 Re-examination by Ms. Harbour:
23 Q. Witness RM046, did you provide this list of names during proofing
24 and provide comments about them?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. HARBOUR:
3 Q. As the Chamber has already asked you, did you have an opportunity
4 to review all of the comments that you provided?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you identify any material corrections that should be made?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And is this document on the screen before you the same document
9 that you reviewed?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. HARBOUR: Your Honours, I would like to tender this under
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, no objections? You have had an
14 opportunity to look at it during the break. No objections.
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P747, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P747 is admitted under seal.
18 No further questions?
19 MS. HARBOUR: I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto may have a question for you.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Just to ask, you referred to
23 a KOS officer. What is a KOS officer?
24 A. A KOS officer is someone belonging to the JNA, a member of their
25 counter-intelligence service.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 A. Before registering me --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. No further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Moloto just wanted to know what KOS stood
6 Mr. Mladic, you have an opportunity to consult. One second,
7 because it's the very end of the ...
8 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave,
11 just one question stemming from Judge Moloto's question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question of Judge Moloto was limited to
13 what KOS meant, not more, nothing less. If you have a question in
14 relation to that, you may put it to the witness. You're not supposed to
15 further explore whether there were KOS officers, et cetera, which you
16 could have done during cross-examination if you had wished to do so.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] The question is this: Do you know the name of
21 this person?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM046, this concludes your evidence. I
25 would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
1 answered all the questions that were put to you, questions either raised
2 by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
3 We'll first turn into closed session, but I already announce,
4 since we are now still in open session, that once we are in closed
5 session, that we will adjourn for the day and that we will resume Monday,
6 the 21st of January, at 9.30 in the morning. I think in the same
7 Courtroom I, but at least in the premises of this Tribunal. Courtroom
8 III. I apologise.
9 [Closed session]
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day
18 of January, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.