1 Monday, 21 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted to raise
12 something in private session.
13 MR. GROOME: I don't have anything in private session. Does
14 Ms. -- there is something in private session. I have a brief matter that
15 can be dealt with in public session, Your Honour, if we could do that
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please raise the matter, Mr. Groome.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, last week on the 16th during the
19 examination of Mr. Rose the Prosecution tendered P732. During the course
20 of the examination -- cross-examination, there was an issue raised about
21 the translation of that document. The Prosecution has now obtained a
22 revised translation of that document, and has uploaded it into e-court as
23 65 ter 14676A. The Prosecution is recommending in this case,
24 Your Honour, that the Chamber consider keeping both versions of the
25 translation as it will -- it is necessary in order to understand the --
1 the record and the -- the examination of Mr. Lukic.
2 Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, I take it, that the A
4 version is now the authoritative version of the document.
5 MR. GROOME: That is correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is this available to the -- the Chamber
7 therefore will rely on the original version only -- exclusively in order
8 to understand the issue that came up in court and not for evidentiary
10 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby on the record. The Registrar is
12 granted leave to replace 14676 by 14676A, the original document remaining
13 in -- I'm sorry.
14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps if I can assist.
15 This discussion was at 6858 of the transcript, so what the
16 Prosecution is recommending this -- with respect to P732, that it in
17 addition to the translation that's there, that 14676A be attached to
18 the -- the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: We -- we --
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, maybe I could raise this later. It
21 seems that I have something I have a misapprehension about something.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I was about to say that the one could
23 replace the other, the original remaining, but apparently there is some
24 kind of a problem which we'll deal with later.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. We recommend that the original
1 remains but that this other version also be available.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the replaced version was not best. One second.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be that it's plugged in the normal socket
5 where it should be plugged in the voice distortion socket?
6 Can you hear me now, Mr. Mladic? Yes. It's --
7 Then the only thing we discussed when you couldn't hear it was
8 the uploading and adding a new version of P732. The new version being 65
9 ter 14676A. The original document remaining in e-court so, therefore,
10 the new version, on which the Chamber will rely for evidentiary purposes,
11 to be added to the existing version.
12 Ms. Hochhauser, was there any matter you'd like to raise in --
13 before we start?
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I was going to make an
15 introduction to the Court. I can do that now in private session or I can
16 do it when the witness enters.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it now.
18 We move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness, Witness 55.
8 Before starting your testimony, I would like to ask you to make
9 the solemn declaration, please. You have the text before you.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I shall
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] I shall switch to English in a few
15 moments, but I would, first of all, like to welcome you in this
16 courtroom, and I also wish to welcome the representatives of the French
17 government, Mrs. Zasova and Mr. Landour. If I have understood correctly,
18 it's not the first time that you are present in this courtroom.
19 So you know the ropes. In other words, you cannot intervene
20 during the examinations, unless it is really necessary.
21 I will now switch back to English [In English] and now continue
22 in the English language.
23 Witness 55, you will testify with protective measures: Face
24 distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym, which means that if a
25 truthful answer to any of the questions might put you at risk to reveal
1 your identity, you may ask for private session.
2 Witness RM055, you will first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.
3 Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution.
4 Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: RM055
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
9 Q. If we could please have 28630, 65 ter 28630, which is under seal,
10 on the monitor.
11 And good morning, Witness.
12 And ...
13 Is there -- okay.
14 Witness, do you see your name and date of birth appearing on the
15 monitor in front of you now?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would tender 28630 under seal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28630 becomes Exhibit P748, under seal,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P748 is admitted under seal.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could now please have 65 ter 28629 on the
23 monitor, also under seal.
24 Q. And, Witness, as that is coming up, I'll ask you, on
25 16 April 2007, you provided a formal statement regarding the subject
1 matter of your testimony today before a different Tribunal; is that
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. And you also previously testified --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is the microphone ...
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: You should switch on your microphone when you speak,
10 Ms. Hochhauser, and when the witness answers the question, then you
11 should switch it off again.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. You also previously testified before this Tribunal in the cases
14 against Dragomir Milosevic, Momcilo Perisic, and Radovan Karadzic; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. In preparation for your testimony in the Karadzic case, you
18 reviewed a statement that amalgamated relevant portions of your 2007
19 formal statement and your testimony in the Milosevic and Perisic cases;
20 is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And looking at what is now on the monitor in front of you, do you
23 recognise that to be that amalgamated statement?
24 A. Yes, I recognise it.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Now if we could please have 65 ter number 28658,
1 also under seal, on the monitor.
2 Q. And, Witness, in prior testimony, you made two corrections to
3 this amalgamated statement, and yesterday, as you went through the
4 statement, you made some additional corrections to the English and French
5 versions. And if you can take a moment and just -- and tell us -- take a
6 moment to review what is on the monitor in front of you. And when you
7 get to the end of this page, just alert us so we can turn the page. We
8 can go to the next page. And tell us whether these accurately reflect
9 the corrections you made to your statement.
10 A. Yes, ma'am. These are three errors, or four errors, that I agree
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could just show the second page of the
13 document, please.
14 Q. And, Witness, if you can just do the same review of this page.
15 A. Yes, ma'am. Six other errors which I agree to.
16 Q. Okay. So taking into account the clarifications -- I see -- I
17 apologise. We've got a third page.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Was there a third page that I just saw come up?
19 JUDGE ORIE: There is a third page with another one.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could look at that third page, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The English version is
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
24 Q. Okay. And it was the English version that was to be corrected?
25 A. Yes, I think that's enough.
1 Q. Okay. So taking into account the clarifications and corrections
2 that we've now seen on 65 ter 28658, can you tell us if you were asked
3 the same questions today as you were when you provided the information
4 contained in the amalgamated statement, 65 ter 28629, would you give the
5 same responses?
6 A. I hope I would give the same answers, ma'am.
7 Q. Okay. So you -- can you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of
8 the information contained in the statement as modified by the
9 clarifications that we have before us.
10 A. Yes, I can confirm that.
11 Q. And just to go back for one second to the question before. When
12 you say you hope you would give the same answers, can you confirm that
13 the substance of your answers, if not always the exact language, would be
14 the same?
15 A. Yes. I prefer that way of putting things.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, at this time, I tender 28629 and
18 28658, both under seal, into evidence, as well as the associated exhibits
19 except those marked as -- with grey on the list. I don't know whether
20 the Court will deal with those associated exhibits now or later.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll deal with those later.
22 First, the amalgamated statement of the witness, Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28629 becomes Exhibit P749,
24 Your Honours, under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That is admitted into evidence under seal.
1 The other document.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28658 becomes Exhibit P750, under seal,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted, in the absence of any objections,
5 into evidence.
6 Mr. Lukic. Or I'm a bit surprised because there was a --
7 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid I cannot locate this document, 28658.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is it on our screens at this moment?
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It -- perhaps Mr. Lukic is having trouble
10 pulling it up in e-court, but I can advise it was sent by e-mail as well,
11 last night.
12 MR. LUKIC: I'm interested, is it -- is it on the list or not?
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No. These are the clarifications to the
14 statement as -- that resulted in the proofing -- from the proofing of
16 JUDGE ORIE: Want to have it MFI'd until you have an opportunity
17 to further look at that time?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please, because we have to check these
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Registrar, P750, should be marked,
21 under seal, for identification. The Chamber will later decide on
23 The -- P749, Mr. Lukic, there were no further objections to the
25 MR. LUKIC: We discussed this morning. We had some problems with
1 locating documents, but I'm not sure if --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not yet with the associated exhibits but only
3 the amalgamated statement of the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: There is no objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No. That is clear then it was admitted, P749.
6 Ms. Hochhauser, you may proceed.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: With Your Honours permission, I will read a
8 brief public summary of the witness's --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you have explained to the witness the --
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Yes, I believe the
12 witness knows that this is not evidence. It's just my summary.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And I also -- if I can take a moment to
15 apologise to the booths because I failed to provide them with a copy of
16 this this morning. And they have my apology and I'll be reading quite
18 Witness RM055 served with UNPROFOR in Sector Sarajevo in 1995.
19 He observed constant sniping and shelling directed at civilians during
20 the summer of 1995 until the cease-fire of 15 September.
21 During this period, UNPROFOR operated an anti-sniping operation
22 to protect civilians from SRK snipers. In the summer of 1995, the SRK
23 fired powerful improvised rockets into Sarajevo. The witness was a
24 first-hand observer of these attacks; in particular, the rocket bomb that
25 hit the PTT building on 28 June of 1995.
1 UNPROFOR routinely protested to brigade and corps commanders
2 following sniping and shelling incidents, including specific protests
3 concerning the use of these improvised rockets. RM055 also provides
4 eye-witness evidence to the shelling of the -- to the second shelling of
5 the Markale market, and his -- and provides evidence about UNPROFOR
6 opening up the Mount Igman road in mid-1995 to deblock the town of
7 Sarajevo, since previous actions to bring in humanitarian aid and to
8 resupply UNPROFOR units had not been effective due to blockages at
9 Bosnian Serb check-points.
10 That concludes the summary, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could go into private session, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 7066-7068 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Would it be possible to ask the witness not to
15 lean into the mike, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
18 Q. Witness, I'm not sure --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness stay a bit further away from
20 the microphone.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
22 Q. Referring again to the statement in evidence as P749, at page 8
23 in the English version - page 14 in the B/C/S version, and page 10 in the
24 French version - it states:
25 "I am convinced that the snipers were under the control of the
1 SRK Command. Actually, they operated professionally and their manner of
2 operation was rational, considering the aim that they wanted to -- that
3 they want to achieve."
4 And, Witness, I'd like to ask you for further clarification of
5 this statement of what you mean by "their manner being rational," and
6 "rational" for what aims?
7 A. The action of the sniper, Serb Bosnian snipers were within the
8 operation modes of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, which, according to us,
9 had several objectives.
10 First, to cut off Sarajevo, to block it out, which was the centre
11 of gravity of their enemy, or adversary - correction - and to cut all
12 relationship with the outside. So that would be a blockade that would be
13 as formidable as possible. Secondly, demoralise the inhabitants and the
14 defenders of the city. And, thirdly, maintain their upper hand on the
15 morale over the troops and the civilians of the UNPROFOR.
16 In order to reach the second aim, it might seem rational to an
17 assailant that had no ethics [realtime transcript read in error
18 "ethnic"], so again that had no ethic sense --
19 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ethics, not ethnic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- I think the witness reading the English
22 translation noticed most likely that his word "ethique" in French has
23 been translated by - I haven't heard it from the interpreters - by
24 "ethnic," which of course is not --
25 THE INTERPRETER: No. The interpreter said "ethics."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's is corrected.
2 Witness, you don't have to worry that much about the English
3 translation. It is always revised at the end of the day and the end of
4 the session. So if you just give your testimony, if there are clear
5 matters which raise doubts, they'll be identified anyhow.
6 Please proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 So it was rational for this belligerent party to use shelling
9 that would be at random against the civilian population and random shots
10 or sniping. And I was adding that these snipers were doing their job,
11 quote/unquote, in a professional manner from sites that were judiciously
12 chosen and rightly taken care of, set up.
13 So this is my technical and professional opinion.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
15 Q. Okay. Sir, I'd like to turn -- turn now to pages 16, 17 - in the
16 English, 28 to 29 in the B/C/S, and 21 to 22 of the French - which is on
17 the topic of the 28 August 1995 explosions in and around the
18 Markale market.
19 Now, in your statement, you describe the scene that you saw when
20 you arrived approximately -- and in the statement, you say "approximately
21 ten minutes after hearing those explosions."
22 So if -- I'd like to ask Ms. Stewart now to play approximately
23 the first 25 seconds, or 30 seconds, of what's already in evidence as
24 Exhibit P446.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yeah, Your Honour, I would just add, I'm not
3 sure if this was one of the videos that we just gave a warning, since
4 we're in public session, that it has -- it's a fairly explicit visual.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: We stopped the video at 48.3 seconds.
8 Q. Witness, can you tell us, first, which side -- from -- from which
9 street did you approach the market on that day, if you can tell us?
10 A. I was physically at the embassy -- the French embassy that was,
11 at the time, located next to the cathedral. So when I exited the
12 cathedral, I went around -- I'm sorry. When I exited the French embassy,
13 I went around the cathedral, and then I took the street that is in front
14 of the entrance to the Markale market, the distance being about 200
16 Q. And you had an opportunity to just see the -- the small portion
17 that we've just played of P446 in court, and you had an opportunity to
18 view more of it previously.
19 Can you tell us, is it -- is what we see there consistent with
20 what you're trying to describe in your statement that you saw upon
21 arrival approximately ten minutes after hearing the explosion?
22 A. Yes. I arrived at a time where the last bodies were being taken
23 away and where the sweep-up of the street was beginning. So this does
24 match what I saw, given that most of the bodies that you see here on the
25 video were already taken away. There were only a few bodies left, and
1 human remains.
2 Q. All right. In your statement, you discuss hearing a series of
3 explosions on that day. And you've heard -- you're familiar with the
4 sound of shelling and artillery fire.
5 Were the sounds that you heard, the explosions you're describing,
6 consistent with artillery fire?
7 A. Yes. Clearly so. Myself, I was in -- inside the French embassy,
8 and one could not not recognise the arrival of mortar shells. So I shall
9 confirm: These were impacts and arrivals of shells, mortar shells.
10 Q. Just for extra clarity, as it was translated it says "one could
11 not not recognise the arrival of the shells." Does -- is that that
12 one -- one must recognise them as the arrival of shells? It's a double
13 negative; is that right?
14 A. That's right. One has to recognise the incoming of that type of
15 a projectile.
16 Q. And ... if we could --
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm just wondering how much time there is until
18 the break, if I should continue or not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you have something which takes more time, then
20 perhaps we save it for after the break, because there's one matter I
21 would like to raise before we take a break, which has got something to do
22 with the corrections made by the witness, at this moment, MFI'd.
23 The last page, the third page, the answer of the witness puzzled
24 me, where he said, in relation to the French version of his statement,
25 that he changed the language but said that for the English language, that
1 the English version was correct.
2 Now, what the witness actually does hear Ms. Hochhauser, and you
3 should have noted that, he is not changing his answer. He's changing the
4 question. And, even worse, in the question, there is a quote.
5 Now, what the witness does is he changes the quote. That's, of
6 course, not a usual correction or ann amendment to an answer. Because
7 it's about the witness can change his own statement but not the question
8 that was put to him.
9 To make matters even more complex, it could well be that the
10 quote in the question, which comes from another document, was put to the
11 witness in English and then translated. Perhaps translated in a wrong
12 way. And, therefore, what seems to have happened here is that the
13 witness corrects the translation of the language of that document.
14 What we, therefore, would have to do, is, first of all, to verify
15 in the document itself from which the quote was taken how that document
16 which, most likely, have -- will have been originally in English, how
17 that was translated in -- into French, if there is a French translation.
18 And, second, whether, when this question was put to the witness,
19 including this quote, whether it may have been that it was translated to
20 him wrongly in French.
21 Now, the matter remains, that, in the answer, there is no comment
22 on the language as used when -- let me say, the language in which the
23 witness was listening to the question. This is a very complex matter
24 which cannot just be dealt with by saying, The English version is
25 correct, and to change the French version, which, again, is taken from a
1 quote, a quote pronounced in court, and perhaps taken from, perhaps not
2 taken from the French translation of the underlying document.
3 Would you please carefully analyse and consider this matter, and
4 perhaps we'll find a way to resolve it at a later stage.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I take it that you have followed my
7 explanation of why I was puzzled by this correction. We'll have to
8 analyse it in detail and then to find the right solution. I take it that
9 you would agree with that.
10 The document is not yet in evidence. At the same time, you are
11 barred, at this moment, Ms. Hochhauser, to discuss the matter with the
12 witness because his -- he has started his testimony, but perhaps you
13 first start analysing what the situation exactly is and then we'll see
14 whether there's any need to revisit the matter together with the witness.
15 We take a break after the witness has been escorted out of the
16 courtroom. And, for that, we first have to move into closed session.
17 [Closed session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Ms. Hochhauser.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, I would like to turn now to what, in your statement, you
16 call improvised rockets. And in your statement, you use the word
17 "krema," "k-r-e-m-a," and there's some discussion about what -- what type
18 of rocket you're using that word for, and I would just like to clarify
20 Can you tell us when you use the word, are you describing a
21 particular type of improvised rocket or are you using it generically to
22 describe all improvised rockets of this type?
23 A. At the material time, we called these rockets homemade rockets,
24 for lack of a better word. After the meeting we had with a liaison
25 officer, who was liaison officer for an SRK brigade, the Ilidza Brigade,
1 it is then that we heard that the Bosnian Serbs were using this term,
2 "krema," and from then onwards we used this as a generic term to describe
3 this kind of projectile.
4 Q. And so for clarity sake when it appears in your statement, it's
5 in a generic sense? You're using it generically for this type of
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
8 Q. On page 19 in the English, and again this is P749 I'm referring
9 to, and page 34 in the B/C/S, 25 in the French, you describe the rocket
10 bomb that hit the TV building on the 28th of June, and you say:
11 "I was a direct witness of the flight of that projectile."
12 Can you please describe what it is you saw in terms of the path
13 of the projectile and its sound and speed?
14 A. Since I was outside the PTT building at that time, it was around
15 9.30 a.m., it was very easy for me to hear the sound of a train engine of
16 a projectile coming from the west and directed towards the east on a
17 trajectory which was roughly running parallel to what we called
18 "Sniper Alley."
19 Let me add that the trajectory of these projectiles were not
20 stable -- was not stable. It wasn't quite straight. We, therefore,
21 inferred that these must be improvised and homemade devices.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hochhauser, you stated that this quotation
23 can be found on page 9 in the English. Can you help me to find that?
24 JUDGE ORIE: 19.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. I was told it's page 19. In the
1 transcript, it was page 9. Thank you very much.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
3 Q. Witness, when you said that it was easy for you to hear the sound
4 of a train engine, is that the sound that you're attributing to the
6 A. Yes, ma'am. This is an image so that you can imagine what kind
7 of sound this device makes.
8 Q. Okay. And you're familiar with the -- the sound and -- and
9 trajectory, again, of regular artillery fire and mortars, and was this
10 inconsistent or easily distinguishable from those sounds and sights
11 [realtime transcript read in error "sites"]?
12 A. I understand that you are asking me whether it was easy to
13 distinguish between these various kinds of sounds, and my answer is yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, I read in the transcript "sites,"
15 s-i-t-e-s, at the end of line 5 of page 25. Did you want to say sites
16 written like this, or s-i-g-h-t-s.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: The latter, Your Honour, s-i-g-h-t-s.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is pronounced exactly the same, as far as I
20 Could I ask you, Witness, what speed does such a projectile
21 develop, and how long are you able to look at it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're talking about
23 fairly slow projectiles which fly past for a brief second. I could not
24 give you the exact speed of these projectiles. These can be seen as
25 opposed to a shell, and they fly at a relatively slow pace. These flew
1 over for a few seconds, over the PTT building.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And when you saw and heard it for the first time,
3 were you facing it, or did it come from the side or from the back, as you
4 were moving at that time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on the corner of the PTT
6 building, and I must have been standing three-quarters of the way back
7 from where this projectile landed.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay. If we could please move into private
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 7080-7084 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
6 MR. LUKIC: I am, Your Honour. Only I need one minute to
7 organise myself.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic's Defence
10 counsel, will now cross-examine you.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Witness RM055, good morning.
13 I assume that you have before you your statement in the French
14 language; isn't that right? From time to time, we will be looking at
15 that statement and dealing with it.
16 A. I can confirm that.
17 Q. Could you please take a look at your statement, page 5 in the
18 French, by the way it is in English, page 4, third paragraph, and it's
19 also the third paragraph in B/C/S, however, on page 6. We see here that
20 you said that battalions were charged with four missions.
21 Number 3 in terms of these tasks of battalions, you said:
22 "Supervision of agreements..."
23 Do you see that?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic. Please switch off your
25 microphone when the witness answers the questions.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do see this paragraph which
2 outlines the four assignments of the four battalions.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. At this moment, I'm interested in this third mission, namely, the
5 supervision of agreements. And you say here:
6 "Check whether the cease-fire agreements signed in February and
7 December 1994 were respected, ensure liaison with the commanders and
8 investigate any violations ..."
9 Now my question: Did you have an opportunity to read and see
10 these agreements that you refer to here at the time when you came to
12 A. And even before arriving in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Is it correct that, although this was stated in the agreement, in
14 the total exclusion zone, there were some heavy weapons, although there
15 weren't supposed to be any in that zone?
16 A. You forgot, in the item on supervision of the agreements the
17 last -- the last segment of the sentence: To monitor the weapon
18 collection points in Sarajevo and around it. In that case, we had units
19 that were detached in order to supervise the collection points for
20 weapons and -- sorry. I'm sorry.
21 And I knew that both warring parties, again, the -- both warring
22 parties were trying through different means to hide weapons and, thus,
23 not be seen by the United Nations units.
24 Q. Thank you for having reminded me of something that I have
25 forgotten, but, believe me, I haven't forgotten that. I actually asked
1 you precisely that: How this was supervised, how this was checked - the
2 observance of the cease-fire agreement - if there were weapons, and if
3 UNPROFOR did know about the existence of the weapons there.
4 A. Did you mean the weapons that were collected?
5 Q. No, no. We are not talking about weapons that were collected but
6 weapons that were not collected.
7 A. Fine. Through the different means that were at our disposal, the
8 units that were deployed in Sarajevo and on the confrontation line, the
9 teams of observers of the United Nations, the UNMOs, were technical means
10 that were added to the human means that I just described, so we were
11 trying to have as exact a vision as possible of the situation of the
12 forces of the warring parties. In that case, we had an estimation that
13 was rather good, in my opinion, of the situation of heavy weapons that
14 were hidden on both sides. Obviously from the agreement in September on
15 both sides, we had surprises. We have discovered heavy weaponry that we
16 had not detected before.
17 I would like also to specify that what you're talking about when
18 you're saying "heavy weapons," these are 80 millimetre and up, 82
19 millimetre and up, in calibre.
20 Q. Witness, what was your knowledge, how much heavy weaponry was
21 there in Sarajevo under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. Your Honour, we estimated the potential of the 1st Bosnian Muslim
23 Corps in Sarajevo to be a maximum of 150 collective weapons, including
24 the 82-millimetre mortars.
25 Q. And what did you do, Witness, in relation to this maximum of 150
1 pieces of heavy weaponry that were in Sarajevo?
2 A. [No interpretation] ... I mean, the -- the mortars that we knew
3 of. The weapon, for instance, or the weapons, that were kept in one of
4 the tunnels.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to re-start your answer because we
6 did not receive full interpretation.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 The weapons, the heavy weapons, that we were aware of in Sarajevo
9 were monitored by our means; and for instance, the mortars that were kept
10 in the tunnels to the east exit of Sarajevo.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, these 150 pieces of heavy weaponry, were they ever
13 collected? Were they ever checked at Weapon Collection Points?
14 A. I should remind you that I talked about collective weapons
15 earlier because, from a technical point of view, the mortars of 82
16 millimetre in calibre are not heavy weapons.
17 To answer your question, I should agree that it was difficult to
18 be able to control these weapons because there were obstacles that were
19 put in place by the Bosnian Muslim side.
20 Q. Thank you. What was your information? What were the personnel
21 levels of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. The units within Sarajevo, i.e., that were structured in one
23 division, that represented, if I'm not mistaken, six or seven brigades,
24 did not go over 7- to 8.000 soldiers that were, indeed, available.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. President, this may be a little bit unusual
1 but we would kindly ask the witness to speak a little faster.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. [Previous translation continues]... what your source of
4 information were in relation to the personnel levels, since according to
5 the documentation of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina we see there were
6 about 35.000 soldiers who belonged to the 1st Corps of the Army of
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer this question, Witness, there was
9 a bit of an unusual request from the interpreters; that is, to speak a
10 bit quicker. I take it that it has got something to do with the
11 structure of your sentences, which are, perhaps, difficult to identify
12 with your low speed of speech.
13 It's the first time in 12 years, Mr. Witness, that I ...
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Earlier
15 on, I was asked to go not that fast. I will try and find the proper way
16 and rhythm.
17 Let me go back to the question that was asked earlier.
18 The -- the 1st Corps numbers were not only deployed in Sarajevo
19 but also outside of Sarajevo. So the forces that were deployed in
20 Sarajevo did not represent the whole of the 1st Corps, the Bosnian Muslim
21 Corps. Moreover, one knows that the -- that the system that was
22 inherited from the ex-JNA from ex-Yugoslavia means that not all soldiers
23 are in line all the time together.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So, when you said that there were 7.000 men that the 1st Corps
1 had available, you meant people who were deployed at the front line at
2 that point in time.
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Now we need page 6 in French, in English, page 5, and in B/C/S,
5 page 7 of your statement.
6 It's a long paragraph, but you will find the date of the 13th of
7 September, 1995. You say:
8 "On the 13th of September, 1995, (redacted) that involved
9 a cease-fire and the withdrawal of forces in September."
10 According to this plan, who was supposed to withdraw and where?
11 One warring party, all the warring parties, some of the warring parties?
12 A. I would like to confirm that after this first meeting with the
13 brigade, (redacted)
14 (redacted) And you should understand this that you did not --
15 not have any decision power. Everything was done at another level than
16 the Sector Sarajevo level.
17 So in this draft, it was clear that the -- the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps forces were to withdraw and to collect their
19 heavy weapons in order to break the stronghold around the city and to
20 enable civilians to breathe again and to be free in circulation. That
21 was the spirit of this draft.
22 Q. So it was only the Serb side that was supposed to withdraw; is
23 that right?
24 A. I am asking the question: Did we want that the people who were
25 in their own city under siege withdraw?
1 Q. You say "their own city." Did you think that the city of
2 Sarajevo was only Muslim?
3 A. I know perfectly, sir, that there were Bosno-Serb and Bosno-Croat
4 population, inhabitants that were still loyal to the government in place.
5 I had indicated that personally I had a friend, an artist, that was well
6 known in ex-Yugoslavia who was Serb, who deliberately had chosen to stay
7 in his city, and I should be witness to the anguish --
8 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir. We have that in your statement.
9 This is what I'll ask you: Did all Serbs stay in Sarajevo
10 voluntarily or could they not leave? Do you have any information to that
12 A. What I can confirm is that some of the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian
13 Croats in Sarajevo did choose to stay. I should not say that all of them
14 did so, but I know some who voluntarily and deliberately and in full
15 awareness chose to do so.
16 Q. Thank you. Of course, we are not disputing that. Since you've
17 already asked me - although I'm not here to answer your questions - where
18 it was that they were supposed to withdraw, the members of the 1st Corps
19 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you yourself said that there were
20 members of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were
21 outside town itself. Could they have withdrawn somewhere?
22 A. In the circumstances in which we were, it was clearly a question
23 of making sure that the aggressor who was the -- obviously the Bosnian
24 Serb side, might not attack the civilian population in the city, because
25 all the other -- all the other means and all the other trials had paled.
1 Q. Is it correct that when you testified earlier on, you already
2 said that the Serbs did not intend to extend their own territory by
3 capturing new parts of the city of Sarajevo?
4 A. I should confess that I do not recall that.
5 Q. We'll get to that part. But this is what I'm going to ask you
6 now that we're on the subject: Is it correct that throughout your stay
7 in Sarajevo, from the 12th of May, 1995, until September 1995, or,
8 rather, until the beginning of the bombing, that the only attack
9 operations were carried out by the Muslim forces from the city of
10 Sarajevo against the Serb positions.
11 A. No. I have said that the Bosnian Muslim forces had, indeed,
12 launched attacks against their Bosnian Serb adversaries on two directions
13 and that the Bosnian Serb forces did react to gain back the terrain that
14 they had lost.
15 Q. So, in your view, that was an attack or, rather, a
16 counter-attack, to take something that one had already held briefly
17 before that period?
18 A. You could say in this confrontation that it was a counter-attack.
19 And I will take the opportunity to remind you that there was in this time
20 in parallel an attempt to take sights that were under the control of the
21 United Nations. For instance, the episode of the Vrbanja bridge which
22 was not to gain back lost ground obviously. Again, the Vrbanja bridge.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We're close to the moment where we take the next
25 MR. LUKIC: One -- only one more question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just briefly see 1D561.
3 Actually, I do apologise. We can deal with this after the break,
4 because we need to have a document called up, and we need to find the
5 exact page.
6 [In English] Your Honour, it's a good time to have a break now.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we take the break now.
8 We first move into closed session for the witness to leave the
10 [Closed session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, in regard to -- to what was just
17 discussed, I would just also point to another line, I believe.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We're now in open session, Ms. Hochhauser. If you
19 would copy the text and a little note, give it to the usher, so that the
20 Chamber will be able to read the relevant portions of the transcript and
21 consider your concerns.
22 Mr. Lukic, if you're ready, you may proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think that our technical
24 problems are solved as well and that we can see the documents in the
1 So, first of all, I would like to see 1D561 in the e-court,
2 please. This is --
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, this is a transcript from the Karadzic
4 trial of the 18th of January, 2011.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 59 in e-court.
6 Apologies. Actually, page 53. It is page 10490 of the transcript. We
7 are interested in lines 9 through 12.
8 There you were asked I'll read it out in English:
9 "[In English] Now, Witness, do you agree that the Serbian side
10 did not have any intention of expanding its zone in the city and did not
11 mount any offensives to conquer new territory in the city?"
12 "A. That could be said this way."
13 [Interpretation] Witness, do you recall this part of your
14 testimony, and do you accept that it is truthful.
15 A. Yes, indeed, I can confirm this statement which is authentic and
16 entirely reflects what I feel.
17 Q. Thank you. Now let us go back briefly to the part where you
18 mentioned where the Muslims could withdraw from the city.
19 So it was never even considered that Muslim fighters should be
20 withdrawn from the city of Sarajevo. That was not even considered by
21 UNPROFOR and the international community; correct?
22 A. This was not considered; that is correct.
23 Q. Thank you. What about the Muslim forces which, as you put it,
24 were located outside the city, belonging to the 1st Corps of the Army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Was it considered that they be withdrawn anywhere?
5 Q. Thank you. We are not trying to force you into answering
6 questions you know nothing about, but thank you for attempting to answer
7 this one.
8 Could you next look at page 7 in the French, please, and page 5
9 in the English version, the fourth line from the top, and in the B/C/S,
10 it is page 3, I believe.
11 You say, since --
12 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, we have two times the English on our
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I suppose Mr. Lukic is referring to the statement
15 of the witness; is that correct?
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the statement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have -- we have now -- at least we have
18 the French version the statement on our screen.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need P479 [as interpreted].
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not forget that it is confidential.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: That's 749.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the right pages?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It is page 7 in the French and page 5
24 in the English version. I believe this should not be broadcast outside
25 the courtroom.
1 Q. You say: "The Serbs could not retrieve their weapons due to the
2 lay of the land and the poor condition of the materiel."
3 Then you continue discussing the grouping at four check-points
4 alongside a number of roads according to your proposal?
5 JUDGE ORIE: We have not found it yet, neither in the English,
6 nor in the --
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I can assist in the English. It's at the very
8 bottom of page 5, three sentences up.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. There we are. And then in the French --
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe I said the fourth row from
11 the bottom.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Yes, I see that. Now we still have to
13 find it in French. Let me see.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I believe it should start at the last sentence
15 of the French, page 6, into the top of French page 7.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've found it. Yep.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. You mentioned old equipment, old materiel. Would you agree with
20 me that the equipment in question was actually obsolete? These were
21 obsolete weapons as compared to the weapons possessed by the NATO
23 A. Let me repeat. These were a former generation type of weapon,
24 old weapons that had not been properly maintained. The server didn't
25 always have the right parts, spare parts. Some of these weapons had been
1 placed in a particular position for a long time. This doesn't mean that
2 one couldn't fire from these weapons, but they could not be moved very
3 readily, from what I could understand.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Again, there seems to be at least some inconsistency
6 in the English and the French version. For example, I read and it's
7 perhaps not the most important thing, but in French it reads:
8 "[Interpretation] General Smith decided" --
9 [In English] I missed -- I missed something. Ignore what I just
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, would you agree with me that these were weapons and
14 pieces that were imprecise from the point of view of accuracy as applied
15 by the NATO Alliance and compared to the kind of weapons NATO had back
16 then, in 1994?
17 A. How can I put this? I shall endeavour to answer in the simplest
18 way possible. The weapons had the precision that coincided with that
19 type of weapon, that generation of weapon.
20 Now, when you have artillery weapons, you need to make
21 adjustments. You cannot just hit the target from the first time unless
22 you're lucky. This is the type of weapons that the Sarajevo-Romanija
23 Corps had.
24 I hope I've been clear.
25 Q. You have. Thank you.
1 Is it correct that the same kind of weapons were held by the
2 Muslim side? Did they have such old generation weapons or were their
3 weapons more up-to-date?
4 A. As far as I know, the Bosnian Muslim [as interpreted] forces did
5 not have more modern weapons. They had former stockpiles of the JNA, or
6 of the territorial forces.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It should read "Bosnian
8 Serb forces."
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're again at page 7 of the French
10 version. In the English, it is page 6, the first paragraph. In the
11 B/C/S, page 9, the first paragraph.
12 Q. There you say -- well, you refer to Dragomir Milosevic. This is
13 just following the part concerning the 17th of September, 1995.
14 There, you say as follows:
15 "Dragomir Milosevic realised that the Rapid Reaction Force
16 constituted a second echelon of UNPROFOR and expressed his fear that the
17 Bosnian Serbs might take this intervention brigade to be an occupying
19 Did General Milosevic tell you or explain to you why he believed
20 that the Serbs might take the Rapid Reaction Force to be an occupying
22 A. Unfortunately not. I'm quoting the reaction of Mr. Milosevic.
23 No additional explanation was provided by him.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment for one
1 Witness, you were asked on page 45, line 18:
2 "Is it correct that the same kind of weapons were held by the
3 Muslim side?"
4 This was part of the question.
5 And then you answered:
6 "As far as I know, the Bosnian Muslim forces," as it is recorded,
7 "did not have more modern weapons."
8 And then ...
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And then we have a note by the interpreter:
11 "It should read 'Bosnian Serb forces.'"
12 Were you referring to Bosnian Muslim forces or Bosnian Serb
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my answer had to do
15 with the soldiers of the 1st Corps, the Bosnian Muslims.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the situation.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Let us stay with page 8 in the French, in the English, it is page
19 6, in the B/C/S, page 9. In the English, it is paragraph 2, as well as
20 in the B/C/S version.
21 There you say:
23 (redacted), the VRS had
24 withdrawn 60 per cent of its heavy weapons; taking into account that 50
25 weapons had already been evacuated towards Banja Luka. The following
1 day, 19 September, there were still between 40 and 50 weapons in the
2 zone, of a total of about 260."
3 My question is this, sir: Was it your impression that the Serbs
4 approached the process of withdrawing their weapons in good faith?
5 A. At that time, my answer would be certainly yes. The Bosnian Serb
6 side tried, roughly speaking, to meet the requirements of the agreement
7 that had been signed. A few weapons were discovered here and there that
8 had been concealed. These were unfortunate personal initiatives. That's
9 the way we saw it.
10 Let me repeat: Overall, the command did meet the requirements of
11 the agreement that had been signed.
12 Q. Is it true that UNPROFOR had full control over that process?
13 A. I can say, yes, we did our job as professionals would.
14 Q. Another question on this topic. Is it true that the Serb
15 artillery was, for years, positioned in the same place without any
16 movement of weapons?
17 A. I find it difficult to answer your part of the question which
18 mentions "for several years."
19 While I was on duty in Sarajevo, the weapons did not change
20 positions or hardly, apart from those weapons which had been taken
21 illegally away from the Weapon Collection Point, i.e., the Weapons
22 Collection Points for heavy weapons.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification of one of the
24 previous answers.
25 You were asked:
1 "Is it true that UNPROFOR had full control over that process."
2 Now, you explained in one of your previous answers that some
3 weapons were found to be hidden here and there but you considered this
4 not to be bad intent, but, rather, personal activity rather than anything
6 Now, from that answer, I take it that you say that even the Serbs
7 did not have full control, because some individuals may have acted
8 against what they intended to do, and if the Serbs do not have full
9 control, I'm surprised to hear from you that UNPROFOR had full control.
10 Could you clarify what you meant there in this context?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me address
12 technical aspects of the agreement which related to the withdrawal of
14 The initial agreement provided that all the weapons would be sent
15 to one single Weapons Collection Point to be taken out of the exclusion
16 zone. What I noticed - and I have commented upon that - I felt it was
17 impossible for the Bosnian Serbs to fulfil this part of the agreement
18 given the bad condition of these weapons, that they could not be
19 displaced, and given that there were not enough track vehicles to take
20 these weapons out.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
11 Page 7103 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Sir, already in May 1995, that is to say, upon your arrival,
24 air-strikes took place. NATO air-strikes against Serb positions; is that
1 A. I can confirm that there were two air-strikes on the 27th of
2 May by the French air force.
3 Q. Do you know whether the Muslim forces or the Croat forces
4 launched any offensives during the NATO air-strikes against Serb
6 A. I must make a correction. The Bosnian Muslim forces from
7 Sarajevo launched attacks as of the beginning of May onwards. Prior to
9 Q. That is to say that the air-strikes took place during the Muslim
10 offensives against Serb positions.
11 A. This was an operation that happened concurrently with the Bosnian
12 Muslim operations. These were not necessarily connected.
13 Let me make a correction: I said "concurrent" but not "linked."
14 Q. Sarajevo was a security zone, wasn't it?
15 A. I can confirm that.
16 Q. However, it was not a demilitarised zone, was it?
17 A. One could, indeed, say that numerous weapons were on the -- in
18 both sides of the confrontation line.
19 Q. What was your understanding, then, of this zone that had not been
20 materialised? Is it possible for a security zone or a safe area to
21 exist, according to international law or the law of war that you must
22 have studied, can it be one without being demilitarised? Have you ever
23 come across anything like it before?
24 A. Well, you reminded us that (redacted)
25 (redacted) We were -- we had a legacy
1 of a given situation. This situation was characterised by what? Since
2 January of the same year, a blockade of the blue roads through which the
3 previous agreements guaranteed the free movement of the United Nations
4 forces. These were non-existent anymore.
15 (redacted) So this was the situation that -- how it was, the way it
16 was, and that we had as a legacy. It was not in conformity with the
17 reality that one had dreamed of but the reality was that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you asked a few questions, and I let the
19 witness answer those questions. It is not long ago that we discussed
20 that references to safe areas or safe zones without referring to exactly
21 the source of that would not be very helpful.
22 If you say, A safe area according to international law, I do not
23 know whether there's one concept of that. What we saw recently - and
24 that was part of your answer - that at least the safe area of Gorazde, I
25 think I'm referring to Security Council Resolutions 834 and 836, that
1 despite the fact that Gorazde was defined as a safe area that, at the
2 same time, the presence of the -- some military -- some military presence
3 was accepted. So, therefore, your questions, apart from that they are of
4 a legal nature, do confuse me, at least, in view of the evidence we heard
5 over the last week. And, of course, this witness wasn't there, doesn't
6 have the same knowledge as we obtained last week.
7 So would you be please very precise in your definitions and the
8 legal instruments that you are referring to.
9 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I was trying to refer to
10 Geneva Convention I:
11 "... for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and
12 Sick and Armed Forces in the Field..."
13 Also, Geneva Convention IV, relative to the protection of
15 JUDGE ORIE: Articles, please, because they are relatively long
16 as you may.
17 MR. LUKIC: Article 23 in the first instance.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 23, yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: Geneva Convention IV, relative to the protection of
20 civilian persons in time of war, Article 15. Then protocol additional to
21 the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the protection
22 of victims of international armed conflicts, Protocol I, 8 June, 1977,
23 Article 60.
24 But that's why I tried to establish first whether it was
25 demilitarised zone or not, and when we established that it was not, I
1 will just move on. Because all these Articles are talking about the
2 demilitarised zone.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I thought you were primarily focussing on safe
4 areas and -- but if you say if they were not demilitarised and then we
5 can move --
6 MR. LUKIC: And also we will probably have to seek from somebody
7 to explain how is it possible to have safe area without it being
8 demilitarised. Because we couldn't locate anywhere, we couldn't, maybe
9 somebody else can, such a concept to have a safe area without
10 demilitarised zone.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether someone could explain that to
12 us or whether it follows from the definition of the safe area established
13 at that point in time under those circumstances. But let's move on for
14 the time being.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember that you asked the Muslim
17 forces -- or, rather, General Delic to provide you with the details of
18 the heavy weapons of Bosnia-Herzegovina and their locations within the
19 total exclusion zone?
4 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 7110-7111 redacted. Private session.
19 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Mr. Lukic, if you are ready, you may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. We need to go back to the witness's statement, which is P749. In
23 the French, we need page 9, the last paragraph, in the English, page 8,
24 the third paragraph from the bottom, and in the B/C/S, page 14,
25 paragraph 5.
1 We are now changing topics, and we will be discussing snipers.
2 You say:
3 "I am convinced that the snipers were under the control of the
4 SRK Command."
5 Today you told us that they acted rationally and professionally.
6 Let me ask you this: Did you, or any of your people, tour any
7 sniper positions on the VRS side?
8 A. At that time, in May through October 1995, unfortunately not.
9 Q. Did you talk to anyone from the command structures of the VRS or
10 did you speak with any of the sharpshooters?
11 A. This was never addressed with the contact people we had within
12 the SRK, and even less so with the snipers.
13 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you do not have precise data on
14 how orders were conveyed within the SRK, nor do you have any reliable
15 information about the system of reporting within the SRK?
16 A. At the time, I received no information on the technical resources
17 deployed by the SRK.
18 Q. When you say "technical resources," are you trying to say that
19 you didn't know what kind of rifles their sharpshooters used?
20 A. No. The question related to the reporting and information system
21 within the SRK. I answered by saying that I had no concrete information
22 on those techniques which were used to relay information between the
23 command and the SRK units.
24 Q. Thank you for this clarification. Perhaps my question was not
25 sufficiently clear.
1 Let me ask you this then: Did you know what kind of equipment
2 did sniper shooters have in the SRK?
3 A. Now we're talking about the Bosnian Muslim forces, and I
4 sometimes saw snipers from the Bosnian Muslim side. I could see what
5 equipment they had. When they left --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just stop you --
7 A. -- their headquarters.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just stop you for a moment.
9 I think the question was did you know what kind of equipment did
10 sniper shooters have in the SRK, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
11 Your answer relates to the Bosnian Muslim forces which was not, I
12 think, Mr. Lukic was seeking.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. I apologise for my
14 mistake, Your Honour.
15 Let me start again. I never noticed what kind of weapons were
16 used by the SRK snipers.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Any indirect knowledge on the kind of weapons they
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The impact of the weapons on the
20 people that had been hit by these weapons indicated that these were
21 standard weapons, 7- to 62-millimetre weapons, precision rifle, 762 --
22 7.62 millimetres, used regularly by those forces that were equipped like
23 forces of the former USSR.
24 Let me add that this information was relayed to us by the UNMOs'
25 specialists who relayed this type of incident at all times.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You mentioned the calibre which was going to be by my next
3 question. 7.62. Is it correct that it is the calibre of weapons which,
4 for the most part, was used by both Muslim and Serb formations in
5 Sarajevo? In other words, these were simple automatic rifles, all of
6 them were 7.62 millimetres in calibre, were they not?
7 A. Yes. The calibre of the weapons was the same.
8 Q. Do you recall now, is it correct that whenever someone was
9 wounded by an infantry weapon, it was always said that he or she had been
10 wounded by a sniper? I am actually trying to get at this. Did you ever
11 have an investigation whereby it would be concluded that a person had
12 been wounded by a simple infantry weapon? Or, in other words, were the
13 results of all those investigations always that whenever a person was
14 fired at from an infantry weapon, it was concluded that the person had
15 been hit by a sniper rifle?
16 A. The incidents that were reported to us which we could control
17 regarding civilian casualties occurred in locations and under conditions
18 which were not normal war conditions. In other words, these were
19 deliberate shots at cross-roads which were obviously dangerous.
20 Q. I suppose that any kind of fire, deliberate fire, is dangerous in
21 war time, be it for the target or its immediate environment. Can we
22 suppose that any kind of fire, unless opened if the person firing the
23 shot was drugged or inebriated, was inadvertent fire?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "was not inadvertent
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the purpose of the
2 question but I shall endeavour to answer it.
3 There certainly were casualties, collateral casualties, due to
4 clashes between the warring factions and the civilian population. This
5 is not what I'm talking about. The incidents which I referred to are
6 those incidents which are reported and oftentimes checked by the UNMOs on
7 passers-by or walkers at very specific locations. This is what it is
8 about. In those cases, we are not talking about collateral casualties in
9 a combat area. Or in the surrounding area.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the French, we need page 12. The
11 English, page 10. In the B/C/S version, page 17. Number 9 in all
13 Q. The question was: What were the targets of sporadic targeting
14 and sniper fire. And today you have explained the three types of targets
15 that the SRK units were trying to hit, in your view.
16 With regards to the targets of the SRK, I wanted to ask you the
17 following: There was supposed to be one condition that was inevitable,
18 and that was for UNPROFOR to be aware of the manning strength and
19 structure of units, facilities, buildings, and command posts of the Army
20 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Were you aware of these parameters? Did you have
21 such information, or, rather, did UNPROFOR have such information?
22 A. Could I have more details on the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are
23 we talking about the VRS or the Bosnian Muslim forces?
24 Q. Perhaps I was imprecise again. I'll try to be more precise.
25 In the town of Sarajevo, in the territory controlled by Muslim
1 forces, was UNPROFOR aware of the manning strength, structure, and
2 deployment of units of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina? Did you know the position of military facilities, military
4 buildings, and command posts of the 1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina, as well as that of their brigades and companies?
6 A. In -- in general, yes; but, in details, well, some position
7 obviously were concealed to us. But, in general, yes.
8 Q. I was intending to skip that part of my questions because I've
9 read the transcript of your testimony from the Karadzic case.
10 But let me ask you, nonetheless: Do you know whereabouts in
11 Dobrinja, in Hrasno Brdo and around the TV station and PTT buildings,
12 where there were the positions of the 101st Brigade of the 1st Corps of
13 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. Again, roughly speaking, yes.
15 Q. Please tell us.
16 A. Well, the 101 Brigade was deployed between -- between Hrasno up
17 to the Miljacka river, and, on the other side, went all the way to
18 Nedzarici in as much as I remember. In other words, if you allow me,
19 this brigade was turned to Lukavica.
20 Q. The 102nd Brigade, it was adjacent the 101st. It held Nedzarici.
21 Do you know where in Nedzarici there were the facilities and the command
22 of the 102nd Brigade?
23 A. The 102nd Brigade was indeed deployed on the west side of the
24 city. And I don't think I knew where the headquarters were --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Was, correction.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. The 105th, it was in the northern part of Sarajevo. Do you know
3 where their facilities, command and staffs were?
4 A. I would like to confirm that the 105th Brigade was to the north
5 of Sarajevo. I didn't know where the command post was. I would like to
6 remind that you the liaisons between the brigades and the UNPROFOR forces
7 were dealt with by the commanders of the battalions on the spot to each
8 man their job. (redacted)
14 Q. Thank you. I'm afraid we'll have to wait a bit before we can do
16 Let me ask you generally then, as per parts of town, do you
17 remember that the 111th Brigade was deployed around Grdonj Hill and they
18 also had Hum in their -- under their control?
19 A. If, again, memory serves, the name Hum was under the
20 responsibility of the 105th Brigade and the 111th Brigade deployed on the
21 eastern side of the city was supposed to control, if memory serves,
22 between the crest, the Grdonj Hill, and more to the south, the -- the
23 area up to the tunnels and the river. I'm talking about road tunnels.
24 Q. The 112th, do you recall it being in -- in control of Brijesce
25 hill? If you recall that. If not, I'll move on.
1 A. No. I don't recall that. I do not remember the 112th Brigade.
2 There was a 152 Brigade.
3 Q. Thank you. We'll get to the 152nd. But let me ask you about the
4 115th first. Do you recall it being deployed in the centre of town, as
5 well as at the foot of Mount Topalovic? Actually, sorry, on the slopes
6 of the mountain which was just above the centre of Sarajevo.
7 A. Yes, this 115th Brigade that was -- if memory serves again, was
8 called a mountain brigade, was deployed in that sector close to the
9 Debelo Brdo hill and of the Jewish cemetery.
10 Q. Thank you. Precisely. It was the 10th Mountain Brigade which
11 was later renamed into the 115th.
12 Let me ask you about the 152nd Brigade. It held parts of old
13 town. Do you recall that?
14 A. That brigade, for me, was in the city and used as a reserve for
15 the -- for the units that were holding the line of confrontation, as well
16 as the 155th Brigade that was Bosnian Muslim, if I remember the number
18 Q. You are quite correct. The 155th Brigade. However, my
19 information tells me that it was deployed in Dobrinja, close to the
20 airport. Is that correct, if you remember?
21 A. I couldn't confirm it. And, in my opinion, no.
22 Q. Fine. Do you also know that there was an HVO unit in the centre
23 of town, located partially in the Holiday Inn hotel, as well as in
24 Marin Dvor?
25 A. I do remember that there were HVO personnel in the city, in the
1 centre. I couldn't tell you, neither their manning strength nor their
2 specific deployment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. We are one
4 minute away from the time of an adjournment.
5 MR. LUKIC: I need one minute.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You need -- well, yes, then we go beyond. But if
7 it's one question which concludes the subject, then please do so.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, is it also correct that police units took
10 part in combat as well? For example, the special police unit, which
11 included a number of snipers. Were you aware of that?
12 A. My answer, that will be rather short, is no.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That would be it for the day.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Could I ask you, are you on
16 track as far time is concerned?
17 MR. LUKIC: I might be a bit behind, but I will concentrate. And
18 I think that we have only two witnesses this week, so I think that we are
19 not in any danger to over step into the next week with them.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Sir, we will not continue today but
22 will resume tomorrow.
23 I would like to instruct you not to talk nor to communicate with
24 whomever in whatever manner dealing with your testimony, and we would
25 like to see you tomorrow morning at 9.30 a.m. here in Courtroom III.
1 [In English] We move into closed session in order for the witness
2 to leave the courtroom.
3 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
21 22nd of January, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
24 January, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.