1 Thursday, 14 February 2013 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 No preliminaries. Therefore, could the witness be escorted into
11 the courtroom.
12 Ms. D'Ascoli, the Chamber has carefully considered the way in
13 which you have conducted the examination-in-chief and grants you another
14 five minutes to conclude.
15 Then I also use the time -- yes. During the testimony - and I'm
16 addressing primarily the Defence - during the testimony of Rupert Smith
17 on the 24th of January, transcript pages 7362 and 63, the Prosecution
18 tendered four documents through the bar table following initial
19 objections from the Defence for them to be admitted as associated
21 The Defence was invited to make submissions on the bar table
22 request by the end of the 25th of January, and the four documents were
23 MFI'd as P802 through P805.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber seeks the Defence's position on
1 admission of these documents.
2 Good morning, Mr. Nakas. Can you hear me in a language you
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
6 the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony.
7 Ms. D'Ascoli will now continue her examination.
8 Ms. D'Ascoli.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 WITNESS: BAKIR NAKAS [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Dr. Nakas.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Can we please have on the screen 65 ter 14298. And can we go to
16 page 83.
17 Dr. Nakas, the one that will appear now on the screens is a photo
18 of a deceased person, Vehid Komar, who is registered among the people who
19 died at the Markale market incident on the 28th of August, 1995.
20 I will just ask that you look at the photo. We now have it on
21 the screen.
22 You can see it clearly; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we please go quickly go to the next page, page 84, because
25 there's a second photo related to this same person but it's just for a
1 second for -- for it to be visualized. Yes, this is again the same
3 And my main question would be on page 83, so if we can go back to
4 the previous page, please.
5 Dr. Nakas, yes, I just wanted you to have a look at this photo
6 and if you can tell us anything about the causes of death of this person
7 just by looking at this photo?
8 A. By looking at this photo, I could practically say nothing about
9 this person's cause of death because there are no visible outside traces
10 of injuries, at least not in this photograph.
11 Q. Okay. Can we now have on the screen, the documented marked with
12 ID, or 65 ter, I'm not sure, 1D00567.
13 And again, Dr. Nakas, once the photo appears on the screen, I
14 will just ask you to have a look at the photo. We see that there is a
15 date on the photo, the 28th of August, 1995. Therefore, you know, the
16 same incident at Markale market.
17 Again, Dr. Nakas, just by looking at this photo, are you able to
18 tell us anything about what is marked with the red circles on the body of
19 this person.
20 A. There are two markings on the body of this person. One is on the
21 edge of the thorax, on the left side, and the other one is on the left
22 upper leg. These are the two signs. They are not telling me anything at
23 the moment. The first one could be a mole. The second one could be the
24 damage on the trousers or it could be a stabbing wound or some other sort
25 of injury but there's no blood. So practically, once again, it would be
1 more imagination if one wanted to describe it as having to do with any
3 Q. If -- if these were wounds would -- would this type -- these of
4 wounds would be recorded or noted in an autopsy report, even if there
5 were not related to the cause of death of the victim?
6 A. The autopsy report implies that the body is described on the
7 outside, including all the changes that are noticeable whether they are
8 injuries or not. So if there was any injury it would be included. And a
9 different autopsy is the one where cavities are opened. But, in this
10 case, it is obvious that the body is intact. It is only possible to
11 note -- or, rather, make a description of injuries that can be visible on
12 the outer part of the body.
13 Q. And can I ask you whether this type of signs or wounds, if they
14 were wounds, could be caused by -- could have been inflicted by either
15 small pieces of shrapnel or small gun-fire arms, small bullets?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, there are several ifs in your
17 question. "If this is a wound, could it be caused by...," that's of
18 course a question no person -- because if it's not a wound, then, of
19 course, it could not be caused by. We do not know -- the witness at
20 least told us that he doesn't know whether it's a mole or a wound or
21 whatever. So it's of no use to further explore this. And then there was
22 even a second if in your first question, "if it is a wound" and "if it is
23 unrelated to the cause of death," there there are two ifs which really
24 any answer would be pure speculation.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay. I'll move on, Your Honours. Can I now have
2 on the screen the provisional exhibit number P703.
3 And can we please have e-court page 17 in the B/C/S and in the
4 English of this document. This is a set of autopsy reports prepared by
5 the forensic institute of the Faculty of Medicine in Sarajevo concerning
6 victims of the Markale shelling on the 28th of August, 1995.
7 Q. Dr. Nakas, I can see the document is already on the screen. Do
8 you remember viewing this set of autopsy reports?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you -- if we look at this -- the autopsy report here on the
11 screen, this is an autopsy report of Vehid Komar who is the same person I
12 showed you the photo about. This was the very first photo, page 83 of 65
13 ter 14298. We see the cause of death is inchibitio psychyca that we read
14 on this report.
15 I just wanted to ask you whether this would be compatible with
16 the photo that you observed before, the very first photo of the body?
17 A. Yes. The first and last name of the person correspond. This is
18 obvious. And what also corresponds is that there is no claim in the
19 diagnosis that this is an injury sustained from fire-arms but, rather,
20 the causes of death is inchibitio psychyca.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. D'Ascoli, time is over.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay. Then I just seek to tender the two photos
23 at pages 83 and 84 of 65 ter 14298 confer registrar.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You would have to upload them separately in order to
25 have the photographs separately being admitted, Ms. D'Ascoli.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Once that's done, we'll hear from you, and then
3 we'll ...
4 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, we will upload it as a separate 65 ter
6 And ... can I proceed --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 If there were any technical problems, I hope that they are
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a bit better now. The
11 audibility wasn't really well, so I had to hold the headphones with my
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have any further problems, let us know.
14 If not ...
15 Mr. Stojanovic [Realtime transcript read in error "Ms. Stewart"]
16 are you ready to cross-examine the witness.
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: Sorry, Your Honours. I just wanted to show the
20 witness the document chart to have him affirm that it corresponds to --
21 you know, [Overlapping speakers]... comments.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- yes. That's, of course, all -- you
23 should have started with, if you know that you have little time. But I
24 allow you to do that, and that is then the last issue.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours. It would really be just
1 the one question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I please have on the screen 65 ter 28718. And
4 can we go directly -- to page 2 of this document.
5 Q. Dr. Nakas, do you -- do you recognise this chart? And is this
6 the chart where you commented upon a set of medical records that were
7 shown to you in -- in giving your comments about both authenticity and
8 other substantive matters related to the document?
9 A. Yes. This is the table, and it is also confirmed by my signature
10 next to each place where it says "yes."
11 Q. And does this chart accurately reflect your observations and
12 comments regarding the documents you reviewed? Did you have the
13 opportunity to review the chart and confirm your comments.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, Dr. Nakas. I don't have further questions.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours, for your patience. I
17 will postpone the tendering of this chart until after cross-examination
18 to give the Defence an opportunity to address it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Ms. D'Ascoli.
20 One small correction to the transcript, page 6, line 10,
21 Ms. Stewart you might be surprised by reading that I asked you whether
22 you were ready for cross-examination. It was Mr. Stojanovic.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, now are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. I
25 hope I am.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Doctor.
3 A. Good morning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nakas, you will now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Doctor, considering yesterday's examination-in-chief you have
8 made it an obligation for me to ask you a few questions relating to your
9 yesterday's evidence.
10 If I'm not mistaken, this is the fifth time you're appearing
11 before this Tribunal. Am I right?
12 A. It is the sixth appearance but the fifth case because in the
13 first cases I had to appear two times because there was a break.
14 Q. All right. Will you tell me whether in any of the previous cases
15 you mentioned the incident related to the man called Dragan Kalinic.
16 A. I mentioned that incident in the Radovan Karadzic case in my
17 comment when we discussed the relationships in Sarajevo at the time and
18 why certain shellings occurred, and we also discussed some facts that
19 were obvious. I hadn't mentioned him earlier because I did not have any
20 evidence, nor was I personally convinced in this. It was just a rumour
21 and considering that I would be re-telling rumours, then I would just be
22 a messenger, a transmitter. However, at that particular moment I felt
23 the need to say that and it was mentioned for the first time in the
24 Karadzic case.
25 Q. What was it that convinced you that the story you had heard
1 earlier corresponds to the truth?
2 A. What convinced me was that in discussion with my colleagues, when
3 I had returned, this was confirmed when they told me that they had heard
4 the same thing. There was also something that I couldn't find. It was
5 from the Vecernje Novi newspaper that also included the same claim.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you assist us in guiding us to
7 certain portions in the statement.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness says nothing about
9 that in his statement. It's from the examination-in-chief, from
10 yesterday, this is why I started with that. And I said that when I
11 formulated the question. I apologise.
12 Q. Let us return to what you said yesterday. A document was
13 presented to you and that was what Dragan Kalinic said at one of the
14 assembly meetings, and he said what you told us here. What I'm
15 interested in is whether you remember if that had to do with your
16 hospital or rather the Kosevo Hospital.
17 A. Well, specifically in that instance it had to do with the
18 Kosevo Hospital, but what was implied was the readiness to shell the
19 Kosevo Hospital and obviously the reciprocity would be valid for any
20 hospital that they considered they had lost at the moment.
21 Q. Would you agree with me that you are now making conclusions, but
22 the military hospital or the General Hospital or the State Hospital in
23 which you worked is not mentioned in his speech. Am I correct?
24 A. Yes, you are correct. He only says in a description that the
25 employees of the hospital left it and that practically it was left in the
1 enemies' hands, in their view.
2 Q. Thank you. Now I would ask you to look at something from your
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now it is marked
5 as P941.
6 Q. Paragraph 4 of your statement is the one I would like us to have
7 a look at and comment on together, once you see it on the screen in front
8 of you. Paragraph 4 is the one I'm interested in. You say there are --
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just for the record, this document
10 is the under seal.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Not to be shown, therefore, to the public.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Paragraph 4, where you say:
15 "However, during my absence from the hospital, I was kept
16 well-informed of everything taking place at the hospital through my
17 brother who was an employee of the hospital and who remained there during
18 most of that period."
19 And my question has to do with this sentence that follows:
20 "I learned that during my absence that the hospital had been
21 targeted at some point in time."
22 What I'd like to know is how did you receive this information and
23 from whom, that in the period between the 8th of April and the 10th of
24 May when you returned to the hospital it had been targeted?
25 A. The information was published in the media, so I could hear it on
1 the TV, and I did. And also in contact with my colleagues, not just my
2 brother, but other colleagues as well. They confirmed to me that they
3 were hit once. I couldn't tell you on what day that was, but it did
4 happen in the relevant period.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that this was the period when the
6 administration of the hospital was still under the control of the
7 Yugoslav People's Army?
8 A. Yes. Though one should note that it was also obvious in that
9 period in the media reports and it was a well-known thing that snipers
10 were shooting from the roof of the former military hospital, on several
11 occasions, targeting citizens who were moving about the Marin Dvor
13 Q. I will ask you something being that but now please answer my
14 specific question: Who was the head of the hospital at that time, the
15 period you are discussing in paragraph 4 of your statement? Who was the
16 head of the military hospital?
17 A. The then-head of the military hospital was my colleague
18 Colonel Tomislav Tausan, who was a specialist for lung diseases.
19 Q. Please tell us as you have confirmed now what you learned, were
20 you told who targeted the hospital during this period?
21 A. The confirmation of who targeted the hospital is something I did
22 not hear from anyone. It was supposed and commented that members of the
23 TO had targeted it as a response to sniper fire. But that was also just
24 a story going around.
25 Q. When you say "members of the TO," can you please explain what
1 that was and what sort of an abbreviation that is? What does it stand
3 A. Members of Territorial Defence, you mean? Those were the forces
4 that wanted to defend the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina because
5 there was no organised armed force. We -- there was the reserve police
6 and also reserve Territorial Defence, which was the mainstay of the
7 future Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 Q. Am I right that Dr. Tausan, as the manager of the hospital,
9 remained in that position practically up until the 10th of May, when the
10 JNA left the hospital?
11 A. Yes. In fact, yes. They left on the 9th. They went to
12 Lukavica, then returned, spent the night on the hospital premises, and
13 then they left for good on the 10th of May. I don't know whether
14 Dr. Tausan left on the 9th or on the 10th.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I just want to find out from the
17 When you say "they left on the 9th," who are the "they"?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The employees of the former
19 military hospital were, for the most part, members of the Yugoslav
20 People's Army. And some of them were just citizens, ordinary citizens
21 employed by the JNA, but they had also left, some of them, in the convoy
22 which went to Pale via Lukavica. And then further on from Pale in -- I
23 don't know in which direction they continued.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please
25 have in e-court document 1D778.
1 Your Honours, I must note that we have sent this document for
2 translation. We have not received the translation yet but please allow
3 me to use it. We only have the B/C/S version, so I will use it in a
4 limited way until the moment when we get the official translation.
5 Q. Sir, this is a report on witness interview. The date is the 16th
6 of March, 1996, before the court in Sokolac. And the statement was given
7 by a person you mentioned, Tomislav Tausan.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last
9 page of this document now, as it contains the signature. And if we can
10 please zoom in on the signatures.
11 Q. And, Dr. Nakas, please, can you tell me whether you recognise the
12 signature of your former manager, Dr. Tausan?
13 A. This is his full signature. He used to sign his name differently
14 while he was the CEO and one of the doctors. He used his official title,
16 Q. Thank you. And now let us look at page 2 in this document,
17 paragraph 2.
18 Since we don't have an English translation, I will read from this
19 paragraph to you. It says here that Dr. Tausan, on the 16th of March,
20 1996, stated, inter alia:
21 "From the very beginning of the war in the former
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the military hospital in Sarajevo where I worked was
23 constantly under threat. There was constant sniping and attacks by the
24 Muslim armed forces. Muslim -- the Muslim media launched false
25 information to the effect that JNA members were using the military
1 hospital and opened sniper fire from it on the passers-by, which is
2 absolutely incorrect."
3 I'm asking you in view of what you said in paragraph 4 and then
4 today and what Dr. Tausan said, and he was at the hospital at the time,
5 would you agree with me or, rather, would you agree with Dr. Tausan that
6 his statement is actually correct?
7 A. During the period of time when we were in the hospital together,
8 because it says here "from the very beginning of the war in the former
9 Yugoslavia," around I was in the hospital up to the 8th of April, I did
10 not hear, nor was I informed about any kind of armed forces activity or
11 Muslim forces activity against the military hospital. I was there around
12 the clock. I slept there. And unlike Dr. Tausan, I never experienced
13 fire being opened on the hospital.
14 Q. When you say that --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, just -- one problem of the
16 record. You didn't indicate where your quotation stopped. And,
17 therefore, in line 17 of page 13, we can read "which is," I think it
18 should read, "absolutely incorrect." Was that part of the quotation, at
19 the end of that paragraph, which I assume is -- would be correct, or is
20 it your comment on this part you read into the record?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,
22 Your Honours. This is the end of the quotation. My words, "which was
23 absolutely incorrect," was the end of the quotation of paragraph 2 in
24 this statement.
25 Thank you for your assistance.
1 Q. Doctor, I just wanted to hear your impressions, and your
2 impressions are valid up to the 8th of April, when you left the hospital
3 and were not physically present in the hospital before the 10th of May?
4 A. Absolutely. And I can't say that I experienced anything during
5 that period of time because I wasn't there.
6 Q. And now let's look at the same document, paragraph -- or, rather,
7 page 3, paragraph 3, and paragraph 4 as well. Again, I'm going to read
8 those paragraphs out to you, and then I'll have some questions for you.
9 "There was sniping from the Magribija "dzamija" against the
10 hospital. There, the Muslims stored their infantry weapons that they had
11 illegally brought into Sarajevo. I saw when they were bringing in those
12 weapons in a lorry bearing Gorazde registration plates and then used
13 smaller vehicles to transport the weapons from the mosque and distribute
14 it among the Muslims. One of the more fierce attacks was on 26th April,
15 1992, luckily enough without any casualties."
16 And I continue reading from the following paragraph, another
17 sentence, and I quote:
18 "During one of those fierce attacks against the military hospital
19 which happened on the 3rd of May, 1992, two patients were injured. We
20 informed UNPROFOR about that and we asked for their representatives to
21 come to the site of the incident. However, they never came."
22 My question to you is this: In view of what you stated in
23 paragraph 4, and that is that you had second-hand information, did you
24 ever hear about fire being opened from Magribija, a mosque?
25 A. As for the claim that there was sniper fire from Magribija
1 mosque, I can't say anything because, as you have said it yourself, I
2 wasn't there.
3 However, the claim that that's where infantry weapons were stored
4 and that the weapons had been brought in lorries bearing Gorazde
5 registration plates and distributed among the Muslims, I can only say
6 that Magribija mosque is not in the line of vision from the military
7 hospital. So it's very difficult for anybody to have seen the weapons
8 being distributed from that mosque, if they were in the hospital. They
9 could only see that possibly happening if they were really close to the
11 Q. You have your statement in front of you. Can we agree that
12 Dr. Tausan doesn't say that he saw it from the hospital?
13 A. "I saw when they brought the weapons in in a lorry bearing
14 Gorazde registration plates."
15 Q. He doesn't say that.
16 A. Well, he claims that he saw it from the hospital because a
17 majority of the employees, and especially the CEO, never left the
18 hospital. They never went for long strolls around the hospital because
19 the Nis Specials Unit was billeted in the hospital and they controlled
20 any movements in and out of the hospital. At one point in time I tried
21 to enter the hospital and I was stopped at the entrance because I was not
23 Q. Doctor, how do you know that Dr. Tausan did not leave the
24 hospital for a month or so? And why did he not leave the hospital, if,
25 what you claim, is true?
1 A. I repeat, that that is my assumption. When I was in the
2 hospital --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- to ask this witness to comment on matters
4 he has no personal knowledge of and then to continue questioning on all
5 kind of assumptions, that is not, I think, what assists the Chamber at
6 this moment.
7 The proper way of doing it would be to call the -- Dr. Tausan at
8 a later stage, if there's any need to do that.
9 Let's first ask what the witness knows and then put to him
10 anything which is not consistent with that, to the extent he can answer
11 those questions. But let's refrain from assumptions.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours. We will
14 go back to this document.
15 Q. But now I would like to look at paragraph 16 in your statement,
16 which is under seal, which is P941. P941.
17 In view of what you have just stated, and in view of the Trial
18 Chamber's remarks, in this paragraph, you say -- we will also receive the
19 B/C/S version, you repeat:
20 "I was informed that the JNA, the day after I left the hospital
21 on 8th April 1992, the JNA brought in special forces, approximately 60
22 men, from Nis. I believe that the JNA moved special units with equipment
23 into the area of the hospital to attempt to prepare to cut the city in
25 First of all, who informed you that the JNA had brought in
1 approximately 60 men from Nis?
2 A. I received that information from the people with whom I had
3 worked for five, ten, or 20 years. Those who remained in the hospital
4 and with whom I was in communication. They were all hospital employees.
5 Q. Please don't worry, I'm waiting for the interpretation to end.
6 A. I know. I know.
7 Q. You didn't see them, did you, those men?
8 A. You mean those men in uniform?
9 Q. Of whom you heard that they were specials from Nis.
10 A. No, I didn't see them until the moment when I tried to enter the
11 military hospital. I don't know what date that was. For health reasons,
12 I wanted to enter the hospital, but I was stopped by the regular troops
13 whom I knew. They had consulted with men in camouflage uniforms, bearing
14 heavier weaponry than the regular soldiers, and that made me realise that
15 those were special units. The second time I saw those men was when I was
16 reading reports from Skenderija, after the conflict at Skenderija between
17 those forces and members of the Territorial Defence. I saw that report
18 on television.
19 Q. You say further on that you believed that the JNA moved special
20 units into the area of the hospital to attempt to prepare to cut the city
21 in half. What made you conclude that?
22 A. That was my assumption which was based on the fact that
23 absolutely there was no need to bring in any special units into the
24 hospital. Because there was a platoon in the hospital that could provide
25 full security for the hospital. All the department chiefs in the
1 hospital were armed with automatic rifles and Skorpio rifles. That's why
2 I thought that no such unit was needed unless somebody was planning other
3 activities and other operations.
4 Q. Thank you, Doctor. And now let us go back to the document that
5 we had on the screen a little while ago, 1D778. I would like us to look
6 at page 2, at the last paragraph.
7 The then-CEO of the hospital, Dr. Tausan, describes that same
8 event. But he says -- let us focus on the last lines on page 2. I'm
9 going to read. The two of us can follow in our own language, but I want
10 the document to be interpreted.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's zoom down -- let's scroll
12 down. I'm interested in a couple of lines at the very bottom of the
13 page. A little bit more. Thank you.
14 Q. Dr. Tausan speaks about the same events, and he says:
15 "From that day on Muslims occasionally opened fire on the
16 military hospital buildings, so the command of the Military District sent
17 a group of soldiers to provide security for the hospital. I remember
18 that there were -- were a total of 26 soldiers in the security detail.
19 One of the most fierce sniper attacks came from the Unis building so
20 nobody dared move around within the hospital perimeter. That was the
21 first time that the security detail responded to the attack."
22 This is the end of the quotation, and my question is this: Could
23 you accept that what you heard with regard to the number of people who
24 had been brought in to provide security for the hospital during that
25 period of time by the Military District, as Dr. Tausan says, would be
2 A. Well, this is what Dr. Tausan says. However, when I returned to
3 the hospital on the 10th of May, and when I inspected the hospital, I
4 could establish that the number of JNA members who had stayed in the
5 hospital was higher because two complete departments, the internal
6 diseases department and the skin diseases department, had been turned
7 into a dormitory. There were a lot of shell case -- casings and other
8 materiel and technical equipment there. So judging by the space that
9 they occupied, I wouldn't say that there were only 26 of them. If
10 Dr. Tausan says that there were 26, I cannot dispute that. But from my
11 visual inspection, I could only say that there were more than them.
12 Q. When you returned on the 10th of May, did you learn that during
13 your absence, on the 3rd of May 1992 - and I'm talking about the medical
14 records that were available to you and that you analysed - there -- there
15 was a record made of two patients having been wounded and UNPROFOR having
16 been informed about that.
17 And then, on the 6th of May, 1992, did anybody register the
18 wounding of a young girl who was being treated at the hospital, and that
19 was four days before your return?
20 A. If there were such records, they were recorded in medical
21 histories. Those were hospitalised patients who had their own charts.
22 Any changes were recorded in their own charts.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.
24 Do you have any recollection of such an incident being recorded
25 which happened on the 6th of May, after you returned on the 10th of May?
1 Do you have any recollection of it? Two patients having been wounded,
2 one young girl.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was not at the
4 hospital at the time. Therefore, I don't know anything about that. I
5 did not have any information to that effect.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't learn about such a registration after you
7 returned on the 10th of May. Is that a correct understanding of your
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not find any such records in
10 the surgical department, but if such incidents happened, they would have
11 been recorded in the patient's personal medical charts which are kept
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, therefore, the simple answer is, no, you
14 didn't learn about it.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 Let's try to keep to facts rather than to interpretations,
17 inferences, and conclusions.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just one more
21 Q. When you returned on the 10th of May, Doctor, did you notice and
22 did you take over the management of the hospital? Did you notice any
23 damage on the admin building, on the dental surgery building, the
24 laboratory, and the -- the -- building that housed the gynecological
1 A. There -- no record was made of the takeover. The damage that was
2 visible could be seen on the southern part of the central building
3 between the seventh and eighth floors. There was a -- damage probably
4 caused by a mortar shell or some such thing.
5 As for any other damage that was visible on the buildings, there
6 was some on the facade, but that could have been caused by bullets fired
7 from close vicinity. In other words, there was no other major physical
8 damage, save for that one big hole between the seventh and eighth floors.
9 Q. If I understood you properly, that damage occurred while the JNA
10 was still in the military hospital.
11 A. Yes, that's the hit that I discussed at the beginning of my
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this be
14 marked for identification under 1D778, pending the official translation
15 of the document.
16 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, no objection, Your Honours. I just note that
17 however we're not able to re-examine the witness or in any way having a
18 context for this document missing the translation, but ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is clear. If any remedy is needed, we'll
20 hear from you at a later stage.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D778 receives number D230,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D230 is marked for identification.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Doctor, let us go back to the document under seal, P941,
2 paragraph 9. Paragraph 9. I have a couple of questions to clarify your
4 In your statement you say that you took over the hospital and
5 that during the same period, you were a member of the Crisis Staff. You
6 will see it in a minute in paragraph 9. And you say that:
7 "The Crisis Staff was an organisation comprised of managers of
8 all health institutions in Sarajevo who met on a daily basis to resolve
9 all sorts of issues."
10 My question is this: Was that an ad hoc body or was that a body
11 that was set up pursuant to a document issued by a state body and was
12 named the Crisis Staff?
13 A. The Crisis Staff was set up sometime in April, or perhaps in
14 March; I'm not sure. At that time I was still at the military hospital.
15 I did not see that document pursuant to which it was set up, but I
16 suppose that it was set up based on a law, on a regulation that was
17 issued by a -- the authoritative body. It was not an ad hoc group. That
18 group had its special role. I represented my hospital. I was attached
19 to that group. And when we it comes to the structure and the setting up
20 of the Crisis Staff, I really was not aware of any details.
21 Q. When it comes to that Crisis Staff, was it composed only of
22 health professionals?
23 A. The Crisis Staff, most of its members were health professionals,
24 but humanitarian workers participated in its meetings, both locals and
25 international representatives. There are also people from the police,
1 the armed forces, if an agenda topic required their presence. The team
2 had its very firm structure and most of its members were health
3 professionals, but there was a broader group which involved people who
4 would be called as needed.
5 Q. Why am I asking you this? What am I aiming at? There's
6 something I want to clarify. Such a structure of the Crisis Staff, could
7 it issue binding decisions with regard to safety, logistics, and the
8 management of your hospital?
9 A. The role of the Crisis Staff was mostly as a co-ordinating and
10 advisory body, not vis-a-vis health care institutions but vis-a-vis
11 ministries and authoritative bodies in the city. The proposals that they
12 issued and the suggestions that they came up with would be sent to the
13 authorities who transformed them into instructions and decrees that
14 everybody had to adhere to. It did not have a major impact on the
15 management of the institution that I managed.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are close to the point where we take a
18 break. If you could conclude and then you have 20 minutes to consult
19 with Mr. Mladic.
20 Have you -- has your last question been answered, Mr. Stojanovic?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will have
22 just one questions that the general suggested I should put. I can
23 complete this topic with that one question and then we can take our first
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please put that question to the witness.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I would like to consult with
2 the general briefly.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Doctor, this will be my last question on this topic. Bearing in
6 mind the record where you said that as far as you knew it was set up in
7 March or April, was it in 1992?
8 A. It was fully functional in March and April 1992. However, one
9 part of the Crisis Staff within the organisation of the republican public
10 health institution, headed by Professor Smajkic functioned in 1991
11 already, during the period when certain activities were taking place in
12 Croatia. There was a continuity during that period, but those things did
13 not really concern so much Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sarajevo. The Crisis
14 Staff became fully functional and it assumed its full role vis-a-vis
15 health care institutions in Sarajevo at the beginning of 1992, and then
16 it took off -- what I'm saying is that the Crisis Staff existed already
17 in 1991.
18 Q. Was Professor Smajkic the head of the Crisis Staff that you
19 discuss in paragraph 9?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe this is a good moment,
23 Your Honours, to have our first break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.
25 The witness may follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
6 Meanwhile, I use the time. That -- the Defence has requested further
7 guidance on amendments to 65 ter summaries. And on the 1st of
8 February of this year, in an e-mail to the parties, the Chamber requested
9 the Prosecution's position on the Defence requests for further guidance.
10 Namely, how much time is appropriate for amending the summary and whether
11 statement -- the statement presumption covers all statements to be
12 tendered through the particular witness. And the Prosecution, I think,
13 has not yet responded.
14 Mr. Groome.
15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have some notes and maybe after the
16 next break I can address the Chamber. I think I can express our position
17 in a minute or two.
18 JUDGE ORIE: In a minute or two.
19 Welcome back, Mr. Nakas. Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Doctor, I would like us to see again, under seal, P941 in
23 e-court, and focus on paragraph 13. That is your statement.
24 You describe your hospital there. I will ask you just one
25 question about paragraph 13.
1 Would you agree with me that the military hospital complex
2 consisted of several separate holes? I'm talking in the terms of its
4 A. Yes. But with a note that they were all interconnected. These
5 were architectural holes. They were separately build but their
6 interrelations were such that they were all connected into one general
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have P3 from
9 the Sarajevo Court Binder in e-court. We need page 6. And let us focus
10 on this photograph, the part that could be relevant for the questions I'm
11 about to ask you.
12 We will see a map of Sarajevo, Doctor, and let us try to focus on
13 the section where approximately the hospital building should be located.
14 Thank you.
15 Q. I will now ask you to use the assistance of court usher to mark
16 with a pen the hospital building, if you can see it here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, would it not be better to use this
18 part --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a bit difficult.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the map which is -- gives more details? We
21 have several other maps. I ...
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I made an effort
23 but I could not find a map including the area that I would like to cover
24 with the witness and have him mark it. If it's available, I will do it
25 with pleasure, but there are several toponyms here that -- because of
1 which I wanted to use this particular map.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know, of course, what area you want to
4 Let's proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you in any case.
6 Q. Doctor, I will ask you to draw a circle around the complex of the
7 military hospital, or State Hospital, buildings at the time when you were
8 its head.
9 A. Well, this map is a bit confusing for a me in a sense because
10 there are all these colours and everything. But I suppose that the
11 hospital facilities are here.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you please add the letters DB so that they stand
13 for the State Hospital or "drzavna bolna" in B/C/S, for the record.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. And now, Doctor, I will ask you to draw a circle
16 around the area in which, as you say in your statement -- actually, from
17 which you saw that artillery fire was opened on the south wing of the
19 A. It is this line ... whether it says Vrace here, I'm not sure, in
20 this part. But this is the line across from the hospital at an
22 Q. Doctor, can you please draw a circle around that general area
23 which you discuss in your statement.
24 A. This area would practically include ... it's somewhat difficult,
25 because I cannot see the letters of the names of the toponyms which are
1 included in the map. But this is the area.
2 Now whether it was somewhat more to the south or to the north, I
3 cannot find my bearings because I cannot decipher the place names. But,
4 for sure, it was in this general area, across from the hospital.
5 Q. I will also ask you now to mark, if you can see that, below the
6 big red letters --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- the toponym which is called Debelo Brdo. If you can see that
9 and if you can read it.
10 A. It seems to me that it says here "Brdo," but not "Debelo." I'm
11 not sure. Even with a lot of imagination, I cannot ... I cannot read it.
12 Q. Can you tell us whether you know about Debelo Brdo? You're
13 familiar with this toponym?
14 A. I know the name. And I know that it's on a part of the Trebevic
15 slope facing us. And it borders with the Jewish cemetery, somewhere up
16 there in the direction of Osmice, or thereabouts.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you also mark for us the area of Osmice, which
18 you also mention in your statement.
19 A. That should also be written here, but I cannot see where it is
20 written. If I could see the word "Osmice," I could then mark it, and, as
21 it is, I can just --
22 Q. Well, you can draw a wider circle around the area where Osmice
23 are located.
24 A. With a lot of imagination.
25 Q. Can I just also ask you for the purposes of marking to write a
1 letter O in the circle around Osmice.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Doctor, to your best estimate as a native of Sarajevo, what is
4 the distance, as the crow flies?
5 A. Well, approximately between 3- and 400 metres.
6 Q. Will you please tell me, Doctor, whether you are familiar with
7 the fact that the Debelo Brdo elevation was under the control of the BH
8 Army through -- practically throughout the war?
9 A. If you say that it was, then it was. I had no need to know that
10 it was under the control of the army.
11 Q. Judging by your familiarity with the terrain, is it possible to
12 see the south wing of the hospital without any obstructions from
13 Debelo Brdo?
14 A. Physically, yes. There is nothing to obstruct the view.
15 Q. Thank you. I will also ask you to mark with a circle the
16 location of the Magribija mosque. We talked about it during ...
17 A. It's true that there were much better maps, but the Magribija
18 mosque is here, because this white space is the old Turkish military
19 hospital, and somewhere there, in the middle, is Magribija. It's the
20 street connecting Kranjceviceva Street with Titova Street.
21 Q. Could you just please mark it with MG for Magribija "dzamija" in
22 B/C/S, the Magribija mosque. Thank you. And if you can also mark the
23 Unis building, or, rather, the Unis facilities on this map.
24 A. Well, it seems that these are the two facilities. These two
1 Q. Thank you. Can you please write the word "Unis" above it.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I
3 tender this into evidence, the map with the markings, but we'll try to
4 bring it up once again, if that is doable.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll deal with that soon.
6 Could I first ask you a question. Mr. Stojanovic, you said: "As
7 a" -- "to your best estimate as a native of Sarajevo, what is the
8 distance, as the crow flies?"
9 The distance between what and what? Osmice and ...
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My question was between the area
11 which the witness marked as the area from which the fire was coming with
12 the big elliptical circle and the military hospital complex.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you apparently were satisfied with 3- to
14 400 metres. May I invite you to sit together with the Prosecution and
15 perhaps not just as a native of Sarajevo but just on the scale of the map
16 to find out what the distance is.
17 Then, Madam Registrar, this map marked by the witness would be...
18 THE REGISTRAR: Map from Exhibit P3, page 6, receives number
19 D231, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Could we now please see 1D779 in e-court.
23 Q. Doctor, this is a photograph for which an investigator working
24 for us on the ground told me that it was taken in May 2010 and that this
25 is the Debelo Brdo elevation. Does your memory say anything about the
1 claim I have just made?
2 A. Even though I am a native of Sarajevo, it is a pity, but I never
3 went up to Debelo Brdo in my whole life, so I couldn't confirm that this
4 is the place. I never saw it looking like this.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to have a look
7 at another photograph from the same exhibit; 1D779, photograph 2, please.
8 That's page 2.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour -- Your Honours, there is only one
10 photograph uploaded under this number.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any other number?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, Your Honours.
14 Q. Doctor, I will say this once again for the record. We claim that
15 this is a photograph taken in May 2010 from Debelo Brdo and focussing on
16 the section of Sarajevo where the State Hospital building is situated.
17 What I want to ask you now is this: Judging by what you marked on the
18 map just a while ago, could you say on the basis of this photograph
19 whether the State Hospital building is visible in this photograph and
20 whether this is the direction, according to your knowledge of toponyms,
21 if this is Debelo Brdo?
22 A. Absolutely. As Sarajevo is in a valley, all the elevations with
23 which Trebevic and other mountains around Sarajevo begin would allow one
24 to see this whole area in this way, as if it were on the palm of one's
1 So as you're moving along the road from Lukavica towards the
2 summit of Trebevic, all along you see Sarajevo spread out on front of you
3 as on the palm of one's hand. So I could not claim that this is the
4 place on Debelo Brdo from which you can see the State Hospital of
5 Sarajevo like this. Because the valley below is such that from all
6 positions in this area it allows you to see what is depicted in this
8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has stated that he doesn't know exactly
9 where Debelo Brdo is. The witness has also stated that he had never been
10 there. Is there any dispute about the fact whether you could see from
11 Debelo Brdo the hospital? I mean, we spent a lot of time on it.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Well, Your Honours, I'm not in a position of
13 agreeing whether from Debelo Brdo. I mean, at this moment --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No. Has it ever been explored, Mr. Stojanovic? I
15 cannot imagine that we have to spend so much time on what seems to be a
16 relatively simple matter.
17 This witness has told us that he can't help us. So if it's
18 important for you to establish, I would say get in touch with the
19 Prosecution and establish it. Because you may well be right.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will finish with
22 this area quickly.
23 Q. I will ask just the doctor to mark with the pen the
24 State Hospital building in this photograph.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Could you please put the letters VB for "vojna bolnica," which is
2 military hospital in B/C/S.
3 And just a question, Doctor: Would you agree with me, that what
4 we see here represents the south wing or the southern side of the
5 military hospital building?
6 A. That is undoubted.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this
9 photograph into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: Well, Your Honours, I just have an objection with
12 regard to the fact that the description of the exhibit says a view of
13 military hospital from Debelo Brdo, and we have not established that --
14 JUDGE ORIE: We are not bound by any description.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What we admit into evidence is a photograph which
17 seems of a summertime, green leaves, and we see what the witness said is
18 a hospital.
19 MS. D'ASCOLI: Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the only thing we have here.
21 Madam Registrar, photograph marked by the witness.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D232, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D232 is admitted into evidence and should be
24 described in a way not as to say that it is taken from Debelo Brdo.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please
2 have the document which is Prosecution 65 ter 261777 [as interpreted].
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it a six-digit number? 261777. Six digits.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 26177. So just five digits.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that we can
7 see the document on the screen now. That's the one we need.
8 Q. Doctor, I will now ask you to tell us, first of all, whether you
9 recognise if this is the south side of the military hospital building.
10 A. Yes, this is the facade of the central 12-storey building seen
11 from the south.
12 Q. Will we agree that the first three floors cannot be seen due to
13 the obstacle that we see in the lower part of the photo?
14 A. What obstacle are you talking about?
15 Q. The lower part of the photo, you see a concrete-filled part of
16 the building where there are no floors or at least we cannot discern
17 them. And, on top of that, we see the remaining nine floors of the
19 A. The part that you see is not discernible is actually the second
20 floor of the hospital with the central operating area, the hollow part is
21 the third floor, and the rest of the building from the fourth to the
22 twelfth floors are patients' rooms.
23 Q. In this photo, Doctor, can we see the damage that you described
24 as having been there when you returned to the hospital in May 1992? The
25 rest of the photo exists --
1 A. Perhaps we should see that part, but I would say it would be
2 approximately around here, it would be much better if you show the -- the
3 other part of the photo. That area differed from the other areas of the
4 facade for a long time.
5 Q. Is it the area between the seventh and the eighth floors, as you
6 told us a while ago?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. According to the best of your recollection, during the four years
9 of war, was this part of the hospital, the southern part of the hospital,
10 ever hit by a tank shell?
11 A. Some of the hits looked like tank-shell hits, because we used
12 to -- found remains that were similar to tank shells. I don't know which
13 damage was inflicted by tank shells. However, based on the remains of
14 those shells, we were able to conclude that those were tank shells.
15 Q. In your statement, Doctor, you state that tank shells - and I'm
16 referring to paragraph 22 in your statement - used to hit the fifth, the
17 sixth, and the eighth floors. I'm asking you this: In view of what you
18 stated in paragraph 22, would you be able to mark any of the damage on
19 the south wing of the hospital that would correspond to tank-shell hits?
20 A. The fifth, the sixth, the eighth floors, and there are some
21 others, here.
22 Q. Doctor, since you -- we will be using this document, could you
23 put the letters TO next to the damage that you found on the 10th of May.
24 And as for the other five circles, could you mark them with the letters
25 TG, standing for tank shells.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And now my question: You have just marked certain things. Do
3 you know that that damage was caused by tank shells, or is it just your
5 A. It is absolutely my assumption. It is not full knowledge that
6 could arise from evidence.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honours, could we
9 please tender this photo into evidence, and then I will show the witness
10 another photo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nakas, earlier you said:
12 "Perhaps we should see the part" -- you said, "it would be much
13 better if you showed the other part of the photo."
14 Now the whole of the photo was shown to you, but did you intend
15 to say that you would like to see a photo of the whole of the southern
16 facade of this building, also the parts which is not visible on this
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that my impression would
19 be different if I were to be shown the entire photo of the building.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The photo of the entire building.
21 Meanwhile, I see that the markings have disappeared. There we
23 You want to tender this ...
24 Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Page 1 of document 26177 as marked by the witness
1 receives number D233, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D233 is admitted into evidence.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness says that he could give better
4 answers by viewing the whole of the southern wall -- of the southern
5 facade of the building, it's better to give him an opportunity to do so
6 rather than to just ignore his wish.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I'll do
9 my best. I'm looking for the best possible photo, with no ill
10 intentions. I would to call up 65 ter 26227. Because I believe that
11 this is the only photo depicting the entire south wing of the hospital.
12 I'd like to call up page 8.
13 This photo was taken on the 1st October, 1995, and we found this
14 photo in the Prosecutor's collection of documents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment we appear to see the back of a
16 photograph which is not very helpful.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] ERN is 0003 --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the -- could Mr. Stojanovic please repeat
19 the ERN number.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the ERN number.
21 And Ms. D'Ascoli is on her feet as well.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours. If I can give assistance.
23 In the rest of the exhibit marked with the 65 ter 26177, page 2
24 of the document shows the remaining -- the other part of the south
25 facade. Now, I don't see in the exhibit that we have photos of the
1 entire building from -- I mean, the other sides. But if Dr. Nakas then
2 would prefer to see the fuller side, meaning the whole southern side,
3 this is visible, the second half of that side, from page 2.
4 JUDGE ORIE: What I see, as a matter of fact, that page 1 depicts
5 part of the facade, and we do not know which part; page 2 is, again, the
6 back side. But let's -- let's first focus on the questions
7 Mr. Stojanovic wants to put to the witness.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I
9 will be able to follow your instructions, and I would like to call up --
10 call up 559. Now we're looking at 556. And I would like to call up
12 Thank you. I believe that this is the photograph that I wanted
13 to show the witness.
14 Q. Doctor, I don't think that we have been able to locate a better
15 photo. I believe that this is the entire south wing. Do you agree?
16 A. I can see the best part of the building now. We did not see it
17 before. One part was -- was missing in the other photo, but it's not
18 that important.
19 Q. The damage that you have just marked, how was that inflicted; do
20 you know?
21 A. Again, I'm a doctor, so this is just my assumption. Judging by
22 the destructive effects, it could have been either a heavy mortar or a
24 Q. And now I'm going to ask you to put the letter O, standing for
25 damage, next to your markings.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Doctor, in view of the previous photograph and this photo, can
3 you spot any regularities in the damage that you marked?
4 A. The principal regularity is the fact that the shells hit the area
5 where patients' rooms are. The hits were from the fifth to the ninth
6 floors; whereas, the second, the third, the fourth, the twelfth, and the
7 eleventh floors were less impacted.
8 If you analyse the entire surface of the wall, you will see that
9 most of the hits are visible in the right-hand side part and in the
10 central part of the southern facade.
11 Q. Could you please mark --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, continue with the marking and then --
13 You'd like the witness to mark what?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Doctor, can you put a vertical line across the middle of the
16 building? That would allow us to analyse your words better.
17 A. [Marks]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean vertical to the building or top down on
19 the photograph? What is your intention?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The middle of the building. A
21 vertical line through the building.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this would be pretty
23 much accurate.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whatever that brings us, but we'll see that in
2 a minute.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, I think all the Judges heard the
4 "regularity" of the damage, but apart from regularity or irregularity, as
5 it is said here, and which you may have used in your own language, the
6 Judges have got no idea what a regularity or irregularity of damage is.
7 Are you seeking for a pattern and, if so, what kind of a pattern? What
8 is a regularity or irregularity of damage?
9 If you could tell us, then we might be better able to understand
10 the evidence.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Maybe it's a
12 problem in terminology.
13 Q. All my questions are based on the answer that you previously gave
15 Do you agree with me that the south-east --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I am asking you what your words
17 mean, because for us to understand the evidence, we'd like to know what
18 the words stand for: What is regularity, what is irregularity of damage?
19 What's the regularity of a car? I wouldn't know. Please tell us
20 what -- what you wanted to ask. Rephrase the question in such a way that
21 we understand what it is about.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours. Although,
23 I don't understand. I did not use the word regularity. That's why I'm a
24 bit confused.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please rephrase your question or put it again
1 in such a way that it is clear to us what you've asked the witness.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Q. Sir, Doctor, I apologise. Do you agree with me that the focus of
4 all the hits was in the south-west -- southeastern part of the building?
5 A. All of these are photos of the southern side, which may give us
6 an impression that only that side was hit.
7 However, the other parts of the building were also hit as well as
8 the roof and other buildings which are lower than this central building.
9 But, in physical terms, one could say that most of the hits are on the
10 southern side with a slight aberration towards the eastern part of the
12 Q. And now could you please pay attention to the third row from the
13 bottom. I hope you can see it. And the damage of -- in the third row.
14 A. To the left or to the right?
15 Q. To the right from the vertical line. According to your
16 knowledge, what was this damage caused by?
17 A. I underline the fact that I don't know as much as to be able to
18 give you a precise answer, which is why my answers are not very
19 categorical. I would like just to emphasise one fact. This photo taken
20 from this angle does not really illustrate the scope of a damage inside
21 of the building, because there are rooms in that building that no longer
22 existed. These are the exterior parts and they are what they are, but
23 the interior damage was --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you there. That was not asked, whether
25 this depicts the damage to the inside of the building. It clearly does
2 If there are any questions about that, Mr. Stojanovic will put
3 them to you.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, please, clear question.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would like
6 to tender this photo which has been marked by the witness, and then I
7 will move on to another topic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 26227, page 15, as marked by witness,
11 receives number D234, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D234 is admitted into evidence.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask you just in order to better
14 understand the testimony, did you want to draw the attention of the
15 Chamber to the fact that most of the damage visible on this photograph is
16 on the right part rather than on the left part of the building?
17 Is that what you intended to draw our intention to? One simple
18 question would have done. Is --
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you
20 very much. The right-hand side, which we said was the eastern side.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's all south. But the -- now, is
22 there any suggestion that, therefore, the damage must have been caused
23 from projectiles coming from the east? Or what does it tell us? I mean,
24 what is the suggestion underlying these questions?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The substance of what we are
1 trying to put is the position advanced by our expert would establish in
2 relation to Debelo Brdo, as we indicated previously. And it has to do
3 with this side of the building.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So -- so, if I understand you well, what you are
5 trying to establish at this moment, that, if the damage is to the right
6 side of the southern face of the building, that then it's more likely
7 that it came from Debelo Brdo. Is that --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then we know what to consider when listening
10 to the evidence.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.
13 Can we now look at 1D781.
14 Q. Doctor, we will now see a photograph in e-court depicting the
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a
17 photograph we received from the collection of photographs of the
18 Prosecution from a different case.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is not in e-court.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's not in e-court.
21 Mr. Stojanovic, has it been uploaded? If not, you can move on
22 and then after the next break we'll see whether the photograph is in
23 e-court, yes or no.
24 You may proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's check if we
1 have in e-court 1D782. 782.
2 This is the photograph, 1D782. Your Honours, let me just say
3 that the photograph was taken in a different case. It was one of the
4 photographs from a collection of photographs used by the Prosecution in
5 that case.
6 Q. Doctor, do you recognise the inside of one of the rooms in the
7 State Hospital?
8 A. Judging by the window-frames, the chairs, and the furniture in
9 general, this would have been one of the rooms in the State Hospital set
10 aside for rest.
11 Q. Doctor, can you explain to us how is it possible that this
12 shell [as interpreted], which sits literally beneath a portion of the
13 facade which is clearly damaged should be in such an intact and pristine
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first establish which shell you are
16 referring to. Is there --
17 Could we first ask the witness whether he sees any shell in this
18 picture? Or was it in one of the other pictures?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: A shelf, sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then a shelf. That is -- explains, perhaps, a lot.
21 We understood "shell," whereas the interpreters intended to say "shelf."
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shelf.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which shelf are you referring to? Are you referring
25 to the shelf just below -- below the window to the left of the room?
1 Seen from the position of the photographer?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking me to explain how
4 come this shell or chest should be in such good condition, the only
5 explanation would be that it had been knocked over and was then perhaps
6 placed upward again. Otherwise, the debris from this opening of the
7 facade would have had to have been on it.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
9 Your Honours, can this photograph be admitted into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D782 receives number D235,
12 Your Honours.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, can I just ask Mr. Stojanovic which
14 is the previous case he mentioned where this set of photographs was used?
15 Just for the record and so that we can check. Thank you.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document was
17 used in the case against General Stanislav Galic and carries Prosecution
18 markings, ET9829, and it was taken by John Ashton, a representative of
19 the Prosecution. The marking is IT9829.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D235 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 My information is that the document, 1D781, is now uploaded in
24 e-court. Can we call it up for the doctor to have a look at it.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Doctor --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may get a moment,
4 Your Honours, to consult.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the rule is that you consult during the
6 breaks. If there's any -- and that Mr. Mladic sends a little note.
7 We've noticed that more frequently now, the basic rule, which, of course,
8 no exceptions, is not kept. We would rather be a bit strict on that.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Doctor, we have another photograph from the same collection on
12 our screens.
13 Judging by the photograph and what can be seen out of this room,
14 can you tell us which floor this might be and what room this is?
15 A. This is a six-bed room for patients. I know that it would
16 normally fit six beds in here. I can recognise the -- the bearings that
17 I see here and the frame, and I may even have commented on the external
18 appearance of this room when I said that the damage to the inside was
19 much more extensive than could be seen from the outside.
20 Q. Exactly. That was exactly what I wanted to ask you.
21 Do you agree with me that the space between the two windows was
22 constructed of brick blocks, parts of which we can see in the middle of
23 the photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you agree with me that in that part of the wall, there is no
1 reinforced concrete structure?
2 A. None that I can see in the photograph. But I do assume that
3 there must be parts of reinforced concrete either in the bottom part or
4 in the -- in the area close to the ceiling -- I'm sorry. Though I'm not
5 sure. It must have been somehow connected, but whether there was any
6 sort of reinforced concrete there, I'm not sure.
7 Q. You said that this was a room that would fit six beds. Would
8 these beds have been taken out earlier, since they're not here?
9 A. As of the 13th of May, when the shelling started, we decided that
10 all the patients should be taken down to the basement where there were
11 thicker walls. Most of the furnishings were also taken elsewhere, to the
12 corridors, dressing rooms, the gym.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again, could you give us some idea
14 on what you're heading for.
15 I mean, before we go to the quality of the glass, or the
16 furniture, or the carpets. We do not know what you're trying to
17 establish. If you could assist us, then we can listen in a more focussed
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do believe that
20 this question will yield the answer.
21 Q. Do you see the slopes of Trebevic and Debelo Brdo in the
22 background here?
23 A. In the background here, I can see the slopes of Trebevic. Now
24 whether there's Debelo Brdo there as well, I would leave that -- I would
25 defer to others who know more about it. I can't say that I would be able
1 to tell the geographic features.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be admitted
4 into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D781 receives number D236,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll move to the
10 last topic I want us to deal with, Your Honours. Can we have P941, the
11 witness's statement again, which is under seal, and can I direct your
12 attention to paragraph 14.
13 Q. Doctor, in paragraph 14 you speak about the security of the
14 hospital and how it worked. You said that there was not a single
15 military-related facility in the vicinity of the hospital. Do you see
16 that part of your statement?
17 A. It's under number 14; right?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Or under 15. Internal security ...
20 Q. Doctor, please follow paragraph 14, second sentence.
21 A. I can see it now.
22 Q. This is my question: Do you know where Avde Jabucice Street is
23 located? That's what it used to be called.
24 A. I think that it's still called like that and it's just beyond the
1 Q. How far from the hospital is it?
2 A. Well, it borders on the hospital compound.
3 Q. If I were to tell you that as part of that -- within that street
4 a HVO unit was stationed, would that be accurate? Did you have knowledge
5 to that effect?
6 A. I did not have that sort of information. I was not aware of a
7 single HVO unit present in the immediate vicinity of the State Hospital.
8 Q. Thank you. In that case, Your Honours, this might be the right
9 time to take our break. I think it's the time. And then we will move
10 onto the next document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I would like to briefly deal
12 with a matter.
13 The name of the street you referred to was Avde Jabucice Street.
14 Could we try to find that. Do I see that that is a street at least on
15 sheet 7 of one of the maps in P3, that that is a street running more or
16 less east/west at the northern side of the hospital?
17 Witness, could you confirm that? Because that's how we see it on
18 the map.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That would be
20 the street.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Then it's time for a break.
23 Witness, could you please follow the usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes past 12.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, how much more time would you need?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I have
6 announced to the Prosecution, I plan to use another half an hour, which
7 means that I will stick to the time requested from the Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So you'll not -- you'll spend half -- 30 more
9 minutes. Yes. We'll accept that. But, just as guidance, if you want us
10 to see that the right side of a building is more damaged than the left
11 side, first of all, we do not need a witness for that. You can see it on
12 the photograph. And if you want to specifically address that matter, you
13 can do it in two minutes instead of spending ages on it.
14 Therefore, similarly, if you ask a witness to say what is the
15 distance doesn't make much sense if we have a map. The map shows the
16 witness clearly is misjudging the distance.
17 So it's all superfluous. Therefore, you're invited for the next
18 30 minutes to be very focussed and efficient.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Could we please have document P3 in e-court, page 24.
22 Your Honours, this is a photograph which we already had a chance to see
23 in the courtroom.
24 Q. I think you will probably be seeing it now in front of you,
25 Doctor. And my question is this: Can you see in this photograph the
1 street that we discussed before the break? I mean Avde Jabucice Street.
2 A. Specifically in this photograph, that street is not visible
3 because it is between the buildings, behind the Sarajevo State Hospital.
4 And the view of it is blocked by the buildings.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see in
7 e-court the document 1D775.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D214, Your Honours. D214.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise, this is
10 not the document that I wanted to look at. I will ask you again, I think
11 it's 1D7 -- yes, that's right. That's the document. 1D775.
12 Thank you. That is the document.
13 Q. And now, Doctor, I will ask you to look at the last paragraph of
14 this document together with me.
15 This is a document from the Command of the 7th Mountain Brigade
16 dated the 28th of January, 1993.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I interrupt you. The Registrar tells us that
18 1D775 is D214. What is this document now?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I clarify. 755 was the one,
20 because it was temporarily in the transcript that I first published,
21 which was the D exhibit 1D775, which is now on our screens, is not in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Doctor, in this document, addressed to the 1st Corps on the 28th
1 of January, 1993, the document says, inter alia, the following, I will
2 read it. It's from the last, i.e., third paragraph:
3 "HVO units on Mejtas and in MT Uce Street are connected to the
4 HVO Main Staff for the city of Sarajevo."
5 And I want to ask you the following. The HOS unit located in
6 Avde Jabucice street represents some kind of military police and it is
7 under the control of the HOS staff for the city of Sarajevo. Does this
8 document refresh your memory in any way to the effect that in the
9 immediate vicinity of the hospital in Avde Jabucice Street there was a
10 military formation of the HOS in this period?
11 A. No. This document does not refresh my memory in any way
12 whatsoever so that I could remember that this unit or military police was
13 stationed in Avde Jabucice Street. I only know that there was a police
14 station, Marin Dvor, located just behind the church in Marin Dvor, and
15 that was a unit, that is to say, police.
16 Q. I will ask you about that, but I would tender this document into
18 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to this witness? The witness has not
19 said anything about it. Or do you want to bar table it? That's -- but
20 even then the link with the evidence of the witness is not yet clear.
21 Mr. Stojanovic. It's --
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours. I
23 understand. The witness cannot really talk about it. If he doesn't know
24 anything, then I will use a different opportunity to tender this
25 document. And thank you for the suggestion.
1 Could we then please see the following document in e-court,
3 Q. While we are waiting for this document to be uploaded, Doctor, I
4 can, as well, tell you that it is a report - you can now see it on the
5 screen. It's a document from the Security Services Centre, Sarajevo,
6 dated the 30th of December, 1992, sent to the under-secretary of the
7 National Security Service and the OB of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps from
8 Predrag Ceranic, who is the chief of the SNB sector.
9 And the last paragraph, which is marked here says:
10 "We also have intelligence that in the evening on the 27th of
11 December, 1992, there was a clash between members of the so-called TO BH
12 and the HVO. The clash happened in the area close to the tobacco
13 factory, the school of economics, and the French hospital, and it went on
14 at full intensity for about five hours."
15 First of all I want to ask you this: When one mentions the
16 French hospital, the tobacco factory, and the school of economics, is
17 that area close to the hospital where you worked which was then called by
18 the people the French hospital?
19 A. This hospital called the French hospital was in fact the
20 State Hospital in Sarajevo which, for a while, was called like that which
21 was to signify a friendship between the peoples of France and
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The distance between the tobacco factory, the school
23 of economics, and the French hospital is quite big. This is a wide area.
24 So this is more of a description of a part of the city, behind
25 Marin Dvor, which is delineated by these three features.
1 Q. What I wanted to ask you is whether you have any personal
2 knowledge about such clashes close to your hospital at the time around
3 the 27th of December, 1992?
4 A. No, I have no such information. And I was asked the same thing
5 in other cases in which I testified. And then I also answered that I did
6 not know anything about this conflict, nor was it reflected on the
7 operation of our hospital in any way.
8 Q. Thank you. Then we will use this document later.
9 Now I would like to ask you this, Doctor. Is it correct that at
10 one moment as the manager of the hospital you made it possible for the
11 teams of several media houses to stay at the hospital for a while?
12 A. In early 1992, a Sky News crew and some other teams -
13 occasionally they would come from CNN - with a request to go up to the
14 higher floors of the Sarajevo State Hospital in order to take a few
15 photos or make some recordings, and I made it possible for them to do
16 that, to go up to the higher floors, and in one period a Sky News crew,
17 at their own responsibility and risk, stayed in one part of the
18 Sarajevo State Hospital, on the north side, on the 12th floor. The
19 journalist you mentioned as the author of the photograph, John Ashton,
20 occasionally also visited the hospital and was also treated at the
21 hospital weapon he was wounded.
22 Q. Will you please tell the Trial Chamber which period was that when
23 they stayed and worked on the hospital premises.
24 A. That was during the summer 1992, up until the fall. And then
25 occasionally depending on their visits, they would drop by at the
1 hospital, and, as we had made friends, in a way, they had the opportunity
2 to spend some time with us.
3 Q. Doctor, will you tell me whether they performed their tasks in
4 early 1993 and in the spring of 1993 while staying on the premises of the
5 State Hospital.
6 A. I have no evidence that would corroborate that, but I told you
7 that they started coming in 1992. And then they continued visiting us
8 during 1993 and 1994. When they were in Sarajevo, it was possible for
9 them to say with us.
10 Q. As for their activities, did they also conduct these activities
11 of theirs from the upper storeys of the State Hospital building on those
12 occasions in 1993 and 1994?
13 A. Occasionally they would record our work in the first aid station
14 and in the operating theatre. Our colleagues working. And sometimes
15 they would also film from the upper floors, and the several recordings of
16 shelling of Sarajevo during the night were made by Aernout van Lynden's
17 crew from the 12th floor.
18 Q. At one point you also mentioned the police station in Marin Dvor.
19 Can you please tell the Trial Chamber how far the police station building
20 is from the State Hospital building?
21 A. Well, up to 100 metres in the middle of Trscanska Street or the
22 "Sniper Alley," so what was dividing us was one block of buildings and
23 two streets.
24 Q. Thank you, doctor. I will finish with a question.
25 Did you at any point in time notice that the HVO or the BH Army
1 was using artillery from some point in the vicinity of the
2 State Hospital?
3 A. During the period that I stayed there, and I stayed there
4 practically around the clock during the day and during the night, no unit
5 fired, nor any individuals, anywhere in the vicinity of the
6 State Hospital.
7 Q. Are you allowing for the possibility that at the moments when you
8 were not at the hospital and were not physically present that something
9 like that could have happened without you seeing it?
10 A. If something like that did happen, those who were on duty,
11 including the security which was from the Marin Dvor police
12 administration, would include that in a report, which I received as the
13 person who was responsible for the security of the hospital. I never
14 received such reports, and that is a fact.
15 Q. I'm asking you that, Doctor, because if the Trial Chamber allows,
16 I want to read to you pages 8799, lines 20 to 25, and a part of 87800
17 from the Milosevic case, and --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please repeat the number.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] ... of the 25th of July 2007 in
20 which a witness who was called not by his name discussed these events,
21 inter alia, and said the following:
22 "Please allow me to" --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently this is another witness. Now, this
24 witness has not told us any more than that he is not aware of anything
25 and that he expected it to be reported, and I understood that to be that
1 you never received reports hinting at such an event. Now, that others
2 have said other things and unless there is a good reason to believe that
3 on the basis of what you are going to read to us now, that that would in
4 any way refresh the recollection of the witness. If there's a reasonable
5 expectation, and we do not know what you intend to read, but if there's
6 such a reasonable expectation, of course, you're allowed to do it. If it
7 is just to put to this witness what someone else said, then, of course,
8 there is no need to do it.
9 I leave it in your hand, Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will
11 limit myself to page 8800, and I'll put specific questions to the
12 witness. Page 8800, pages 19 through 25, and the witness talks about the
13 same things that I have asked you about. Judge Robinson says be as
14 specific as you say.
15 The witness answers:
16 "When I went on sick-leave in mid-1994, every seven days I would
17 go to my GP for checkups. On my way there," and earlier he was talking
18 about the Kosevo Hospital, "I had to pass by the military hospital.
19 There was a cannon within the hospital's perimeter and it opened fire. I
20 even saw that fire was opened on Serbian positions as I was passing by
21 the hospital. It happened around 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning as I was
22 walking to my doctor's surgery."
23 Let's be very specific, Doctor, would this testimony jog your
24 memory to the effect that there were such situations in 1994?
25 A. I claim with full responsibility that there were no such
1 situations, either in 1992 or 1993 or 1994 or 1995. There were no such
2 situations in the vicinity of the State Hospital in Sarajevo.
3 Q. Doctor, in view of the fact that you testified about your
4 knowledge about other health care institutions - and now I'm going to ask
5 you very specifically about Kosevo - do you know that something of that
6 nature happened in front of the Kosevo Hospital?
7 A. At that time, I didn't know anything about any such happenings.
8 Subsequently, as I followed the trials conducted at the high tribunal, I
9 heard about a movable artillery piece or a mobile artillery piece that
10 opened fire from a close range. However, those witnesses that might be
11 relevant and whose information might be pertinent denied that.
12 Q. Doctor, we're asking you this because in this case --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. Just you had to make a pause because there was
14 still translation ongoing.
15 The witness says that he has no personal knowledge and that he
16 learned that the matter was discussed in other cases before this
17 Tribunal. And then he started commenting on what was the truth or the
18 lack of truth in that, and that's not what we expect the witness to
19 further elaborate on.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, could you please keep this in mind and put your
21 next question to the witness.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
23 finish with the following question.
24 Q. Doctor, on the 10th of May, when you returned to the hospital and
25 when the JNA left the hospital, they also left behind a large supply
1 of -- of medicines and military equipment in the hospital.
2 A. Based on the agreement reached with the JNA and the international
3 community, the hospital staff left the hospital carrying nothing but
4 their personal effects. That's why some of the supplies that existed in
5 the hospital - and I mean medical supplies, foodstuffs and medicines -
6 were more than welcome for the further work of the State Hospital in
7 Sarajevo. They were used during the war.
8 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this brings my
10 cross-examination to an end.
11 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
12 A. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 Ms. D'Ascoli, any need for re-examination.
15 MS. D'ASCOLI: No, Your Honours. No need for re-examination.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber also has no further questions for the
19 Ms. D'Ascoli, you're on your feet.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, maybe -- simply because there's the still the
21 issue of the tendering of the document chart. We can also do it without
22 the witness but it could be that the Defence has --
23 JUDGE ORIE: It may be --
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, exactly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The chart and the underlying documents of the chart,
1 what is the position of the Defence?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We did not object in this way,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Neither against the chart nor against any of
5 the underlying documents, Mr. Stojanovic? That is clear.
6 So therefore we don't need the witness.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: We can do it without the witness, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We can do it without the witness.
9 Any other matter for which we need the witness?
10 If not, Mr. Nakas, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to
11 The Hague and, as you testified, it was not your first time that you came
12 to The Hague. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you very much for
13 having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and the
14 questions that were put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return
15 home again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honours.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: What then remains is the chart. I suggest that
20 Madam Registrar prepares a list in which the 65 ter numbers of both the
21 chart and the underlying documents are mentioned. And that we then
22 disclose this to the parties and that they we then decide on admission,
23 and since there's no objection, it will be an overall admission of all
24 the documents.
25 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
1 I just want to mention that the chart should be tendered under
2 seal because refers to a document under seal. And as well, one of the
3 exhibit in it should be tendered seal but we will indicate that to the
4 the registrar.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if Madam Registrar then prepares that
6 list, we'll then decide on admission once we have received it.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, in the meantime we have also
8 uploaded those two pages, page 83 and 84 of 65 ter 14298. Maybe we can
9 deal with them as well now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you remind me what exactly they were --
11 MS. D'ASCOLI: These were -- yes, these were two photos of a
12 deceased body.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: And we had to create a subset from the original 65
15 ter number. It's --
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's uploaded under what number?
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: 14298A, 65 ter.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, that would receive number?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14298A receives number P956,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, Mr. Stojanovic. Then P956 is
22 admitted into evidence.
23 Any other matter in relation to the witness.
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: I do have a brief matter, but if we could go into
25 private session for that, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
2 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we are, and we're also prepared to make
13 submissions with respect to the amendment of the witness summary,
14 whichever pleases the Chamber.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You said you could do it in one or two minutes,
17 Mr. Groome. You're invited to make these submissions.
18 MR. GROOME: If I just have a moment, Ms. Stewart is just
19 bringing a written copy to the interpreters to assist them. I know that
20 I often can make these submissions at break-neck speed, but she's
21 bringing them up now, and I see they have it.
22 Your Honour, identifying and bringing before the Chamber relevant
23 evidence is an important function of the Prosecution. It does happen on
24 occasion that witnesses provide additional information they have not
25 previously provided. In such cases, if the Prosecution determines that
1 the new information is sufficiently important that it should be adduced
2 at trial, it will seek to amend the 65 ter summary and lead that
3 evidence. Our practice is to disclose the new information and seek an
4 amendment of the 65 ter summary as soon as reasonably possible. A
5 practice that is in keeping with the Chamber's guidance of August 2012.
6 With respect to how the Chamber should deal with newly discovered
7 evidence that is testimonial in nature, the Prosecution submits that the
8 Chamber should apply the same legal standard applied to applications to
9 amend the exhibit list, an approach that requires the Chamber to consider
10 a number of factors, including fairness to the accused.
11 Mr. Ivetic in his submissions of 11th December at transcript page
12 6074 seeks to encourage the Chamber to adopt a very technical approach
13 and his submission conflates the unrelated issue of when the Prosecution
14 is obliged to provide notice of the exhibits it will use with a witness.
15 So with respect to our position regarding a guide-line, the
16 Prosecution submits that the current guide-line set out at T1638 is clear
17 and it is accepted by the Prosecution. The Prosecution also accepts that
18 in cases in which new testimonial evidence is discovered, the Chamber
19 will and is obliged to consider the implications of allowing the
20 Prosecution to lead that evidence and that a failure on the Prosecution's
21 part to comply with the Chamber's guide-lines may be a factor considered
22 as part of that determination. A determination that should be made on a
23 case-by-case basis. To the extent that the Mladic Defence has
24 characterised the Prosecution's interpretation of the guide-lines as
25 giving it carte blanche to amend its summaries at will, this is a
1 mischaracterisation and inaccurate. I have asked Ms. Bolton to be
2 present in the Chamber to answer any specific questions that the Chamber
3 may have with to respect to Mr. Fraser, the witness with whom this issue
5 Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Groome.
7 Is there -- does the Defence want to say anything about it at
8 this moment? Mr. Ivetic, it was a matter I think which you dealt with.
9 MR. IVETIC: It is, Your Honour. And it is a matter that has
10 come up with several witnesses that I have had to deal with, and I would
11 think that we have already made submissions in writing. We would stand
12 on those and would only add as follows.
13 Your Honours set a deadline, I believe it was February of last
14 year, for the Rule 65 ter summaries of witnesses to be given to the
15 Defence. Under the jurisdiction and practice of the Tribunal, that is
16 done to give the Defence time to prepare for these witnesses and prepare
17 its Defence case. In this instance, the Prosecution only selects the
18 statements that are going to be tendered by a witness approximately 30
19 days before that witness is to testify. Therefore, if we are extending
20 the boundaries of the rules to permit witness statements to amend Rule 65
21 ter summaries then we are basically abolishing the February filing
22 deadline for Rule 65 ter and negating the ability of the Defence to have
23 that time that is foreseen under the rules to prepare for witnesses
24 because we don't know what the witness's testimony is going to be until
25 approximately a few weeks before they testify and that infringes upon the
1 rights of the accused and it infringes upon the abilities of this Defence
2 team to keep up with pace of trial and to be adequately prepared with
3 these witnesses. And I've mentioned it's happened with at least a couple
4 of the witnesses that I've had in the past.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it sounds as if this is repeating, more
6 or less, what you addressed already earlier, isn't it? That was your
7 concern which you expressed when you were seeking guidance, isn't it?
8 MR. IVETIC: It might be, Your Honours. I don't have that
9 particular transcript reference in front of me to be able to verify it.
10 But those are the concerns of the Defence, and if Your Honours are
11 understanding of those concerns and are considering them, I think then we
12 have nothing further to add at this point.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, anything in response to what Mr. Ivetic
14 just submitted?
15 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the Chamber will consider the
17 matter and decide in due course.
18 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Ms. Hasan will take the next
20 witness. And just to remind the Chamber of the protective measures
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we first turn into closed session.
25 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8688-8689 redacted. Closed session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 Ms. Hasan -- first, Witness, could I invite you to stand and
2 make a solemn declaration, of which the text will be handed out to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: EDIN SULJIC
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Suljic, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hasan.
10 Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
11 Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I omitted to wish you a
13 good afternoon and to everyone else in the courtroom.
14 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
15 Q. Good afternoon to you, Witness.
16 A. Thank you. And good afternoon to you too.
17 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
18 A. My name is Edin Suljic.
19 Q. Do you recall, sir, testifying in the Galic case on 8th and 9th
20 April in 2002?
21 A. Yes, I remember.
22 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to listen to that testimony
23 you gave in that case?
24 A. Yes, I listened to it.
25 Q. And having listened to it, are there any corrections you wish to
1 make to the testimony?
2 A. I think that my evidence was truthful and I do not want to change
4 Q. So, sir, if I were to ask you the questions you were asked in the
5 Galic case, would you provide the same answers?
6 A. Yes, I would provide the same answers.
7 Q. And just to confirm for the record now that you've taken the
8 solemn declaration, do you affirm that the testimony you gave was
9 truthful and accurate to the best of your knowledge?
10 A. Yes. My testimony was truthful and accurate, certainly to the
11 extent to which I could remember the events.
12 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would offer the
13 testimony of Edin Suljic from the Galic case on the -- as proposed by the
14 Prosecution in its 92 ter motion bearing 65 ter number 28677.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: I still have problems with the document.
17 First of all, Your Honours, the examination of the witness now
18 related to the testimony of the Galic case. What is being proffered by
19 the Prosecution is not the entirety of the testimony from the Galic case
20 but is an excerpt. So we don't know whether the witness is answering
21 with regard to the entirety of the transcript or the selected portions.
22 The selected portions, the 65 ter number that is being tendered,
23 does not have a B/C/S translation and, therefore, should not be admitted
24 into evidence as the accused does not have the ability to follow the same
25 and to read the same.
1 And then we would also stand by our objections to specific
2 portions of the tendered Rule 92 ter statement as were delineated in our
3 written filing of the 28th of January, 2013, identifying specific
4 portions, I believe, three selections from three separate pages that we
5 believe was inappropriate through this witness under this Rule.
6 And so subject to those objections, I would ask for the Court
7 to -- enter a ruling.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 First, could we ask the witness, have you listened to the whole
10 of your testimony or to the selected portions? But you may not know what
11 portions were selected. So I expect an answer from you, together with an
12 answer from Ms. Hasan.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow, what I
14 listened to, and as far as I remember, it was the whole of my testimony.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore you're attestation would include the
16 portions selected.
17 And although you're attestation covers then the whole, it is --
18 tendered is only the selected portion.
19 Mr. Ivetic, are there any other portions you would like to add so
20 that the Chamber will have a more complete picture of the evidence of the
21 witness? And have you considered this, to ask for additional portions to
22 be selected?
23 MR. IVETIC: I have additional portions that I will be asking the
24 witness in cross-examination, so I believe that that aspect is all that I
25 have to say.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it -- in order to have everything
2 complete, and we might decide only at the very end about admission,
3 perhaps there's a way that those selections will be added to the
4 selection made by the Prosecution so that the Chamber has one set of
5 pages available.
6 Second, you said there's no written translation in B/C/S. Could
7 you assist the Chamber in referring us to case law where the fact that
8 the written version of the B/C/S - I'm not talking about the audio - that
9 the unavailability of written B/C/S version was a reason not to admit a
10 transcript of a previous case.
11 MR. IVETIC: Off the top of my head, I cannot, Your Honours,
12 except to point to your guidance that all documents should be translated
13 into B/C/S. This has been the case in these proceedings since day one,
14 and so I believe that when it comes to accusatory documents under the
15 rules, they should be in the language of the accused. And if the e-court
16 is the bases of all evidence that's entered in this case, I do not see
17 anything in B/C/S with regard to this document, and I believe in one
18 prior instance we did mark for identification a transcript and -- upon
19 awaiting for the audio or the video to be presented as well into
20 evidence, but I'm not sure what the final resolution of that was.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the practice in this Tribunal is, in
22 general terms, that if there's B/C/S audio available, that that gives
23 sufficient opportunity to the accused himself to prepare for the
24 cross-examination of the witness. But if you are aware of any other
25 practice, the Chamber would like to know.
1 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, the problem with the audio is
2 the audio covers the entirety of the transcript. What is being presented
3 by the Prosecution is not the entirety of the transcript. There is no
4 way for the accused to know what parts of the audio are being presented
5 with this witness, which parts of the audio are not being presented to
6 the witness, absent having a written transcript of what selections from
7 the whole Galic transcript are actually being presented by the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Your point is clear, Mr. Ivetic.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We will decide on admission at the very end.
12 Madam Registrar, the transcript of the Galic case, as uploaded
13 now, would receive number ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: As uploaded under number 28677 will receive
15 number P957, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P957 is marked for identification.
17 Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.
18 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I know we're approaching the time for
19 the next break; however, I think I can complete the summary for the
20 public before we break, if that is agreeable to you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps if you would do that and we take a
22 break then after you've read the summary of the testimony of the witness.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. HASAN: Edin Suljic, a lawyer, was a member of the Security
25 Service Centre in Sarajevo between September 1993 and May 1995. He began
1 his work in the CSB, the Security Service Centre, criminal department
2 after which he was transferred to the department for war crimes and
4 The witness was on duty on 5 February 1994, the day of the
5 shelling at the Markale market, which is Scheduled Incident G8 in this
6 case, together with a team, including ballistic experts and crime scene
7 technicians, a photographer, and others, and led by an investigating
8 judge, he attended at the scene of the -- of the shelling incident. The
9 Stari Grad police had already secured the site by the time the team
10 arrived. They found traces of blood, scattered objects, and human body
12 After conducting the on-site investigation, the witness went to
13 Kosevo Hospital, where the majority of casualties had been taken. He
14 went there to establish the identity of those who died and those who
15 are -- who were wounded as a result. He reviewed records kept by the
16 admissions department, records made available to him at the morgue, and
17 obtained information from hospital personnel. They also sought
18 assistance from the public and the pathologist to help identify those
19 deceased who didn't have identification documents on them. At the
20 hospital, the witness counted approximately 60 dead bodies.
21 The witness returned to the Markale scene the very next day.
22 Forensic technicians and ballistics experts were there conducting their
23 activities. Thereafter, he went to Kosevo Hospital to update the list of
24 victims that he had prepared the previous day. The pathologist at the
25 hospital confirmed that the cause of death for those killed was mortar
1 shell fragments. The witness attended the Kosevo Hospital but it was his
2 colleagues that collated the list of dead and wounded that were taken to
3 the French hospital and the UN clinic.
4 The witness drafted an official report on the investigation based
5 on reports he received from the various experts and documents and
6 correspondence he received from the French hospital and the UN clinic
7 regarding the patients that were taken to those medical facilities.
8 Persons who lived along the path of flight of the projectile, as
9 determined by the ballistic experts, were interviewed. The information
10 from them confirmed that the shell was launched from the direction of
12 After all the elements were determined, the witness assisted in
13 drafting a criminal report against unknown persons who committed the
14 crime. The list of 67 dead and 142 wounded that is attached to that
15 criminal report accurately reflects the number of persons they determined
16 to have been killed and injured at Markale on the 5th of February, 1994.
17 And, Your Honours, that concludes my summary.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
19 And we'll take a break.
20 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes. Could you
21 please follow the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at half past 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
3 Meanwhile, I put the following on the record. In an e-mail
4 September on Friday, the 8th of February, 2013, the Chamber informed the
5 parties of its decision to grant the urgent Prosecution motion for
6 testimony of Witness RM015DD to be heard via videolink conference with
7 reasons to follow. The reasons for the decisions will be filed shortly.
8 However, in order to facilitate the necessary arrangements required, the
9 decision is hereby put on the record.
10 Accordingly, the Chamber requests the Registry to take all other
11 necessary measures to ensure that the witness can testify via video
12 conference link on 25th February 2013 from his count of residence, as
13 indicated in the motion.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, if you have any further questions for the
16 witness, you may proceed.
17 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, in the official report that you authored on the Markale
19 shelling that took place on 5 February 1994, which is already an exhibit
20 in this case.
21 MS. HASAN: And for everyone's reference, that's Exhibit P00868,
22 page 8 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S.
23 Q. And in your prior testimony in the Galic case, you indicated that
24 persons situated along the flight path of the shell that exploded at the
25 Markale market were interviewed. Who initiated those interviews?
1 A. It was my immediate supervisor who gave the order to interview
2 them and the interviews were conducted by my colleagues from the
3 department for war crimes and genocide. I'm referring here to the
4 interviews conducted with the persons whose residences were at a greater
5 distance from the place of the impact of the shell.
6 As far as I remember, I conducted several of those interviews
7 with persons residing close to the place of the explosion.
8 Q. Can you tell us whether a record of those interviews was kept?
9 A. Yes. Each interview was documented by a statement drawn up by
10 the inspector who conducted interview.
11 As for the interviews conducted close to the place of the
12 explosion, each witness marked his or her location at the moment of the
13 explosion on a sketch.
14 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, did you rely on those reports of
15 the interviews that were conducted during the course of your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Rely for what purpose?
18 MS. HASAN: For the purposes of the findings that are contained
19 in his official report.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The interviews were conducted for
21 the purpose of documenting the crime that was committed in the
22 Markale market. They were used as one of the pieces of evidence showing
23 the direction from which the projectile had come, in addition to expert
24 analyses and other material evidence, during the proceedings we also
25 tried to obtain the testimony of witnesses who could confirm to the best
1 of their knowledge what the direction was from which the projectile had
3 MS. HASAN:
4 Q. Witness, do you recall whether any of the persons interviewed
5 indicated that they heard the shell being fired?
6 A. In view of the interviews which I personally conducted and also
7 based on the statements which I received from my colleagues who conducted
8 the interviews with a number of other persons, I concluded that those
9 persons did hear the firing of the projectile, then the sound of the
10 projectile flying and, after that, the explosion.
11 MS. HASAN: May we please have Exhibit P00868 displayed.
12 Specifically page 10 of the English and page 10 of the B/C/S.
13 Q. Witness, take a look at this document. And once you've had a
14 chance to review it, could you please tell me if you recognise what it
16 A. Yes, I recognise this document.
17 This is a document, a statement which my colleagues,
18 Esad Taljanovic and Nijaz Smajic took from a witness, Kenan Parla. At
19 the moment of the incident, he was located in the Sedrenik settlement.
20 Q. I'm just going to quote from the report of the interview with
21 this particular witness where it states:
22 "I clearly heard the sound of the firing of a shell coming from
23 behind Spicasta Stijena (pointed rock) from the direction of the village
24 of Mrkovici."
25 The report also notes that Kenan Parla, as you have just said,
1 was situated in Sedrenik, Sedrenik Street 101, on February 5. Do you see
2 that, Witness?
3 A. Yes, I can see that.
4 Q. Do you recall marking a map yesterday during our proofing session
5 on the basis of the information contained in this report?
6 A. Yes, I remember.
7 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I'd move to add the map
8 that was marked by the witness yesterday to the 65 ter list. It's been
9 assigned a provisional 65 ter number 28727.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: I must admit the map as marked has only been given
12 in e-court. We have not yet had a copy to examine. But I believe the
13 question I want to ask is, is it being marked according to the witness's
14 knowledge or is it being marked according to the witness's interpretation
15 of what this out of court individual told two out of court and
16 unavailable persons? If it is the latter, I would object as it not being
17 proper testimony from this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may ask these questions in cross-examination.
19 Could we first have a look at the map to see what we are supposed
20 to decide on.
21 MS. HASAN: If I could then call up 65 ter 28727, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any technical problem?
23 THE REGISTRAR: It seems it is extremely high resolution of the
24 document, so it takes a lot of time to be --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There it is.
1 Ms. Hasan, how many markings are there? I see a marking in red.
2 I see other markings in blue.
3 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, there's four markings --
4 JUDGE ORIE: In different colours, I do understand.
5 MS. HASAN: Yes. There's three in red, one marked with number 1,
6 one marked number 2, a third one which is towards the bottom of the
7 screen marked number 3. That one is a little bit faint because of the
8 colour of the background, and then another marking in blue marked number
9 4 and with a notation as well on the bottom right-hand side of the map.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what did you ask the witness to mark?
11 Anything on the basis of his personal knowledge or just where is Sedrenik
12 or where is Spicasta Stijena? What did you ask the witness to mark.
13 MS. HASAN: I asked the witness to mark the locations as far as
14 he knows where they are.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just as described in the interview.
16 MS. HASAN: Yes. Based on the report.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because that --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see there's a marking more towards the right of
19 the screen, Madam Hasan, which you haven't referred to, which is
20 rectangular in shape, just above the blue one. You didn't mention it. I
21 don't know what it is all about.
22 MS. HASAN: I think I know which one you're talking about. But
23 that's one that's on the original map. I believe if it's a sort of
24 rectangular shape with a little bit of an angle on the right-hand side.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
1 MS. HASAN: That's on the original map. That wasn't the
2 witness's marking.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, the Chamber does grant your request to
7 add it to the 65 ter list.
8 One thing should be clear. If we look at later and if you ask
9 any questions about the marking, it should be perfectly clear what the
10 witness marked. If he says, This is a place I know to be Sedrenik,
11 that's different from, I have knowledge about where the person was who
12 gave that interview. That should be perfectly clear what the witness
13 marked on what basis he marked anything.
14 Could you please keep that in mind when further examining the
16 MS. HASAN: Certainly, Your Honours. I will walk him through
17 that right now.
18 Q. Witness, do you recall marking this map?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And on the bottom right-hand corner of the screen, can you
21 identify the signature there?
22 A. Yes, it's my signature.
23 Q. If I could ask you, you were -- you -- I asked you to mark this
24 map, and let's start with the -- the marking bearing number 3, which is
25 towards the bottom centre of the screen.
1 Witness, can you tell us what it is that you marked there.
2 A. Number 3 is the marking standing for the location of the
3 Markale market.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, is there any dispute about where the
5 Markale market is?
6 MS. HASAN: No, Mr. President, there is no dispute. What I was
7 intending to do is to mark that so that it can be seen relative to the
8 other locations.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MS. HASAN:
11 Q. And if you see, Witness, you have also marked with a red circle
12 and numbered number 1 an area. Can you tell us what you marked there?
13 A. The red circle indicates narrow part of the Sedrenik settlement.
14 Sedrenik Street runs straight through the Sedrenik settlement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was there any dispute about where Sedrenik is,
16 Ms. Hasan? Have you sought to agree with the Defence on whether Sedrenik
18 MS. HASAN: No, Mr. President. I did not have an opportunity to
19 discuss that with the Defence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you may have had an opportunity but at least
21 you didn't do it.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. HASAN: And I understand. I appreciate your point,
24 Mr. President.
25 Q. But I will just ask the witness to identify the marking he made
1 on -- which he has enumerated number 2. Can you tell us what you've
2 identified there.
3 A. 2 indicates the Donji Mrkovici settlement. Obviously Mrkovici is
4 much larger than the area that I actually denoted.
5 JUDGE ORIE: There is no dispute with the Defence about where
6 Mrkovici is.
7 MS. HASAN: Again, Mr. President, as I just mentioned, it was --
8 I have not discussed the entirety of this map with the Defence, since we
9 completed it yesterday.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MS. HASAN:
12 Q. And, Witness, just to complete, then, the markings on this map,
13 you have also marked with blue ink and the number 4, a circle. Can you
14 tell us what that area you've marked there identifies?
15 A. Number 4 is the general area of the Sedrenik settlement. On the
16 left is Grdonj and on the right is [indiscernible] belongs to Stari Grad.
17 Further up north there is Spicasta Stijena and one part of the territory
18 that was at that time under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 Sedrenik was actually the last line that was held by the BiH Army.
20 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I had asked the witness to make these
21 markings based on information that was contained in the reports of the
22 interviews. I intend to offer this into evidence at this time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, again, the objection being that from
25 the prior document of this witness, neither interviewed the unavailable
1 third parties nor took their statements and we believe, therefore, he
2 cannot serve to give us any assistance in terms of understanding those
3 statements by marking on a map. It's -- I mean, these are locations that
4 are identified on the map by name, so the markings of the witness do not
5 add anything, nor can we know for a fact that they accurately depicting
6 what was said discussed during the interview apart from the fact they're
7 written down on a piece of paper that cannot be authenticated as having
8 been accurately reflecting what was discussed in the interviews.
9 So I would object to the marked map being introduced through this
10 witness in this manner.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The map doesn't add any probative value as to what
13 we have already in evidence. That is, just marking where a place is.
14 Therefore, admission is denied.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. HASAN:
17 Q. Witness, I'm going to turn your attention to the sniping incident
18 that took place on 8th October 1994.
19 Do you recall being involved in an investigation into the sniping
20 of two trams, trams 206 and 236, in Marin Dvor on that date?
21 A. Yes, I recall that.
22 Q. Did your responsibilities in that investigation differ from the
23 role you had in the investigation on 5 February 1994 relating to the
24 Markale shelling incident?
25 A. My responsibilities were the same as at Markale.
1 Q. Could you please -- please briefly tell us what you personally
2 observed when you arrived at the scene of this incident.
3 A. When I arrived at the scene with the team which involved a
4 photographer, a forensic technician, and investigating judge who was in
5 charge of the investigation, we entered the tram where we found traces of
6 blood, shattered glass, damages on the vehicle caused by bursts of fire,
7 fired from fire-arms.
8 The forensic technician and the photographer took photos of the
9 crime scene. They collected all the other evidence which was necessary
10 to establish the direction from which the fire had come from. Later on
11 we went to the State Hospital where we established the identify -- the --
12 the identity of all the casualties, all the wounded and the person who
13 was killed. After that, we compiled an Official Note on the incident.
14 Q. And can you tell us, Witness, whether -- upon your arrival at the
15 scene, whether you recall if it had been secured by the police?
16 A. Yes. The scene had already been secured by the police, by the
17 police security station Centar. Two team members were already there on
18 behalf of the Centar police, so the scene was already secure.
19 MS. HASAN: Could we see Exhibit P00493, please.
20 I'm sorry, this should not be broadcast. It's an under-seal
22 And if we could turn to page 5 in the English and page 3 of the
24 Q. Witness, can you identify the signature there?
25 A. Yes, this is my signature.
1 Q. Are you able to confirm the findings made in that report?
2 A. Yes, I can confirm the findings.
3 MS. HASAN: Could we please turn to page 2 of the English and
4 page 1 of the B/C/S. And about five to six lines from the bottom of page
5 one on the B/C/S version, your report provides that the damage to tram
6 236 was "most probably caused by the so-called 'sijac smrti,' death
8 Can you tell us what that is?
9 A. That's the term that we use for the automatic machine-gun. I'm
10 not a weapons expert, so I wouldn't be able to tell you anything else
11 about that kind of weapon. In any case, that was a machine-gun, and we
12 used to call it a death sower.
13 Q. Did you make that finding that the damage was probably caused by
14 this death sower?
15 A. It was not my conclusion. It was the conclusion made by the
16 forensic technicians who were in charge of the case.
17 MS. HASAN: May we have 65 ter 28604 displayed, please.
18 Q. What you will see is a report dated the 10th of October, 1994,
19 and it's entitled: "Expert Opinion on Marks from the Fire-arms."
20 Witness, do you recognise this report.
21 A. I recognise it.
22 Q. And is it a report that you had at your disposal and relied upon
23 during the course of your investigation?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. HASAN: Could we please turn to page 2 in the English and
1 page 2 in the B/C/S.
2 Q. A third of way down, under the heading: "Opinion," the report
4 "The two bullet heads in question and the bullet cartridge were
5 most likely fired from a DT machine-gun, the so-called sewer of death."
6 Witness, is this consistent with the information that you
8 MR. IVETIC: It doesn't differentiate from received from whom.
9 Is it talking about experts or so-called experts that are not in court,
10 or is it talking about his factual investigation of the incident and the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
13 MS. HASAN: The witness previously testified that he was informed
14 that a machine-gun known as the sower of death was used. What I would
15 like to know is, since he's confirmed he relied on this report, whether
16 this was the report he relied on for that finding.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then ask him that question. Did you learn from this
18 report that it was the sower of death that was identified as the weapon
19 used. That's apparently your question.
20 MS. HASAN: Yes, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Could you tell us whether it is on the basis of that report that
23 you learned what weapon was used?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was compiling my
25 Official Note, based on the information I had gathered from forensic
1 technicians, I stated that the weapon was most probably the sower of
3 I did not have this report at my disposal when I was drafting my
4 report. It was only later that the forensic technicians carried out
5 their analysis. They analysed the bullets found in the bodies of the
6 casualties, and then they were able to confirm that their assumptions
7 from the crime scene. And this is what I used when I compiled my
8 official report.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.
10 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
11 Q. And, Witness, you said you received this report at a later time.
12 Did you rely on the findings in this report subsequently to drafting your
13 official report of the investigation?
14 A. Yes, of course. I believe that those reports were drafted by
15 experts who were in a position to provide accurate opinions and findings.
16 Q. Did you use the information to compile any other reports once you
17 had received the reports from the experts?
18 A. After the on-site inspection, I had to draft an official report,
19 and then after the initial information about possible casualties was
20 gathered, the CSB chief was to be sent a report about all the facts that
21 were established about the incident that had happened. And, after that,
22 the inspector on duty did not have to draft any other reports until the
23 moment all the documents are gathered, including the opinions of forensic
24 technicians, ballistic technicians.
25 Only after all that is in place, a complete criminal report can
1 be drafted.
2 Q. And was a criminal report drafted in this instance?
3 A. After the on-site investigation, I compiled my report, and the
4 following day, the chief received an Official Note about the incident.
5 The criminal report was compiled only later, when all the other material
6 evidence was gathered.
7 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 28684 into evidence as
8 a public exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would object. From the answers of
11 this witness it is not at all clear if he relied upon this report in
12 drafting any of his reports. He has identified that his role in this
13 investigation was the same at Markale. I direct Your Honours to page 5
14 of his 92 ter statement MFI'd that has been presented, where the role at
15 Markale was said to determine the identity of the injured and those who
16 have been killed.
17 So this is not within the remit of the witness's role in the
18 investigation --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if I can cut you --
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We have had several times brief decisions on whether
22 evidence should be introduced through a witness or from the bar table.
23 If the evidence to be introduced from the bar table relates to the same
24 events as the evidence of the witness, then it's often -- so, therefore,
25 would you also object against this document to be bar tabled?
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And for what reasons?
3 MR. IVETIC: It's an expert report. It has not been subjected to
4 the -- to the examination of expert materials that is in the practice of
5 the Tribunal, Rule 94 bis.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is for expert reports drafted for the
7 purposes of this Tribunal and this is a document which is entirely
8 different. And if I remind you the difference made in respect of witness
9 statements, made for the purposes of this Tribunal, which are dealt with
10 in a way different from statements taken for other purposes, would you
11 make a similar distinction here or would it be all the same for you?
12 MR. IVETIC: I would direct Your Honours to the decision in the
13 case of OTP versus Milutinovic as to as seen as told and under orders
14 wherein a witness is testifying about what out of court persons concluded
15 or said was deemed to be inadmissible. I believe a similar ruling was
16 held in OTP versus Lukic in the matter of Amor Masovic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the sources, then we'll certainly
18 look at it.
19 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I can.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The document will be marked for identification.
21 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28604 receives number P958,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P958 is marked for identification.
25 You may proceed, Ms. Hasan.
1 MS. HASAN:
2 Q. Sir, I'm going to next show you a series of photographs, and I'm
3 going to ask you in respect of each one of the photographs whether they
4 comport with your recollection of what you saw on the scene on 8th
5 October 1994 and your -- based on your investigation of that incident.
6 MS. HASAN: So for that purpose could we please have 65 ter 28605
7 displayed. And I'd ask that page 38 be shown. And these are quite high
8 resolution photographs, so I believe it will take some time to load.
9 Q. So in the meantime, Witness, do you recall if anyone was killed
10 as a result of the 8 October 1994 sniping incident?
11 A. Yes, there was an individual who died. I believe that his name
12 was Nedzad, a middle-aged man. And I believe that this is the person who
13 is depicted in the photo.
14 MS. HASAN: Could we turn to page 39, please.
15 Q. This is a slightly different picture, Witness. Is -- does that
16 also comport with your recollection of the person who was killed during
17 this incident?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. HASAN: May we turn to page 36, please.
20 Q. Could you carefully look at this photograph. And once you have
21 taken the time to do so, could you tell us whether the tram and the
22 damage to this tram comports with your recollection of what you saw and
23 what you investigated during this investigation.
24 A. Yes, it does.
25 Q. Are you able to point to certain things that would -- that
1 indicate to you that this, in fact, was one of the targeted trams?
2 A. Fire was opened on the tram in its front part next to the driver
3 on the right-hand side. And this caused damage to the front of the tram.
4 You can see that the glass was shattered. The rear-view mirror also has
5 a hole where a bullet went through.
6 These are the photos of the tram that I investigated after the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, I'm looking at the clock. It is quarter
9 past 2.00.
10 MS. HASAN: Yes, Mr. President. I would have approximately ten
11 minutes or so to complete my investigation -- my examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that would bring you just over the one hour.
13 But ten minutes tomorrow is okay, as far as the Chamber is concerned.
14 Mr. Ivetic, in view of the -- in view of the estimate you gave,
15 may I then take it that we'll be able to conclude the evidence of this
16 witness tomorrow?
17 MR. IVETIC: We should, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 28605 was --
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: That is, this photograph is part of it, do you want
21 to tender it?
22 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I do intend to tender it, but there's
23 a few other photographs from this collection I wish to show the witness,
24 and so I can do that now or complete the exercise --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for that and we'll do that tomorrow
1 in your ten minutes.
2 Mr. Suljic, I'd like to instruct that up you should not speak or
3 communicate in any other way with whomever, about your testimony, whether
4 that is testimony given today or still to be given tomorrow, and we'd
5 like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.
6 You may follow the usher.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
10 Friday, the 15th of February, at 9.30 in the morning in this same
11 courtroom, I.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th day of
14 February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.