1 Tuesday, 26 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 If there are no preliminaries, then could the witness be -- next
12 witness to be called and that would be ...
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It's Thorbjorn Overgard, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And as he is being brought in, if I might just
16 put the adjudicated facts on the record.
17 The Prosecution has not offered certain evidence and has redacted
18 the proffered testimony in reliance on adjudicated facts 2531, 2540,
19 2541, and 2858. And I neglected to say, good morning.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, good morning to you as well, Ms. Hochhauser.
21 That's on the record.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Would you please put on your
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Overgard. Before you give
2 evidence, the Rules require that you make the solemn declaration. The
3 text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make the solemn
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: THORBJORN OVERGARD
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please, be seated, Mr. Overgard.
9 Mr. Overgard, you'll first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.
10 Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution. And you'll find her to
11 your right.
12 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
13 Q. Good morning, Major Overgard.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. Sir, you have previously provided statements to the officer --
16 excuse me, to the Office of the Prosecutor, one of which was signed on 30
17 April 1996 and one on 1 October 1998; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you also testified before this Tribunal in the cases against
20 Dragomir Milosevic, Momcilo Perisic, and Radovan Karadzic; is that
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Have you had the -- have you had the opportunity prior to coming
24 to court today to review selections of the -- of your transcript from the
25 testimony -- your testimony in Dragomir Milosevic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. If I could ask, please, to have 65 ter 28741 on the
4 And, sir, while that is coming up I'm just going to remind you
5 and for myself as well because we're both speaking in the same language
6 we have to make an effort to pause between the question and the answer.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now when you reviewed the relevant selections of
9 testimony, did you find them both accurate and truthful?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if asked the same questions today as you were then, would you
12 give substantively the same responses?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 Q. And did you have any clarifications or corrections that you
15 wanted to make?
16 A. No. That's fine. I'm fine.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 28741 into
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28741 receives number P1047,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I might read a brief public
25 summary of the witness's written testimony.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Hochhauser.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Major Overgard was posted to Sarajevo as a
3 United Nations Military Observer beginning in late October 1994. After
4 an initial posting in an area held by the Bosnian Serb forces, he was
5 then deployed to Hrasnica within the territory held by the
6 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which -- where he remained until the
7 1st of May, 1995.
8 During his time in Hrasnica, Major Overgard investigated the
9 death of approximately 30 to 40 civilians as a result of sniping and
10 shelling. In each instance that he is aware of VRS held territory was
11 identified as the source of fire. All of the sniping and the majority of
12 the shelling incidents investigated by Major Overgard involved civilian
14 Specifically, Major Overgard investigated the G10 shelling
15 incident of 7 April 1995 in which a modified air bomb hit a residential
16 area in the centre of Hrasnica and killed a female civilian and wounded
17 others. The investigation in this incident determined that the air bomb
18 was fired from Serb-held territory in Ilidza.
19 Serb forces from Ilidza also regularly shelled and sniped at
20 civilians using the road to Mount Igman or the bridge at Butmir.
21 And, Your Honours, that concludes the summary of the witness's
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
25 Q. Now, Major Overgard, as you know, the Chamber is fully familiar
1 with the selection of the previous testimony that's now been entered into
2 evidence which you have reviewed, so I'm just going to be asking you a
3 few follow-up questions.
4 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And can we please have Exhibit P582 which is --
5 I guess I shouldn't called it an exhibit. P582, which has been marked
6 for identification, on the screen.
7 Q. And this is the special report from SI 1 entitled: Large
8 explosion in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995. And if we could please turn to
9 page 2 in the English but remain on 1 in the B/C/S.
10 Sir, do you see your signature on this document on the monitor in
11 front of you?
12 A. Yes, I do. It's a MO 839.
13 Q. And does the -- are you -- excuse me. Are you familiar with this
14 document and its contents and the investigation that it discusses of the
15 explosion in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Now, on page 2 in English where we are it reads, "The UNMOs" --
18 it's the -- it's what appears to be -- it's a handwritten document but
19 it -- it's what appears to be the second paragraph:
20 "The UNMOs heard the WPN coming," which, and you can correct me
21 if I'm wrong, I would read as weapon, "... coming. It landed
22 approximately," it says says "approx," but I'll read that as
23 approximately, "200 metres from the team Loc," which, again, correct me
24 if I'm wrong, I read as location, "but did not see it in flight."
25 Did you personally see or hear this weapon coming in and can you
1 describe for the Chamber what you saw or heard?
2 A. We were -- I was situated in living-room of our accommodation
3 when we heard it coming in. It was just like big aircraft coming. We
4 were -- it was unusual sound so we were on our way to the floor to lay
5 down when it exploded. We didn't see anything, just heard it.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And if we could turn for a moment to page 3 in
7 the English in this document and 2 in the B/C/S.
8 Q. I'll just ask you to take a moment -- the B/C/S doesn't show the
9 diagram. It just translates. But if you could take a moment and look at
10 the diagram as we see it on the right-hand side of your screen.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us -- and this is marked as Annex A. Can you tell
13 us is this -- is this diagram based on your own observations?
14 A. Yes, it is. It was made by Captain Calum Gunn, the team leader
15 at the time.
16 Q. And were you present when it was -- when it was made?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we can turn for a moment to page 4 in the
19 English and 3 in the B/C/S.
20 Q. And this is marked as Annex B of the document. Can you tell us
21 who drew these diagrams and what the source of the information was to the
22 best of your recollection?
23 A. The source is witnesses from Mount Igman. I can only say
24 witnesses. I cannot point if they were civilians or BiH or whatever.
25 But this was how they discharged weapon, looked, and also where it came
1 from -- truck on Ilidza side beside the factory building over there.
2 Q. And there's a -- you've described the weapon and a truck. Can
3 you tell us, there's a third -- there's third drawing to the right of
4 what appears to be the weapon that's marked as the aircraft bomb. Can
5 you tell us what that represents?
6 A. It's -- it's the bomb seen from behind and we had rockets around
7 it for a small roundings there. It's rockets and a bomb in the middle.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could turn, please, to page 5 in the
9 English and I'm going to ask if we can just go -- show pages 5, 6, 7, and
10 8 in a sequence so that the witness can see them. The corresponding
11 translation in B/C/S would be pages 6 through 9. And these pages 5
12 through 8 in the English are marked as Annex C. So if we could have the
13 next page, please. And the following.
14 Q. The information and diagrams contained in pages 5 through 8 of
15 this document, can you tell us, please, are these based on your own
16 personal observations or some other source?
17 A. No. These are shrapnels found by the team members and they are
18 measured by the team. So that's why we can have the 55 millimetres and
19 35 millimetres, and so on.
20 Q. And did you -- did you see these parts?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you say "the team," can be more specific?
23 A. It's the UNMO team in Hrasnica, Sierra India 1.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could turn, please, to page 9 in the
25 English in e-court. The corresponding translation is 10 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. Now specifically as to this -- this page, page 10, do you recall
2 this page being a part of this report?
3 A. Yes. I recall this page, and -- but I don't remember the item
5 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, you don't remember seeing -- actually
6 seeing the items that were depicted but you do recall that these
7 diagrams were [overlapping speakers]
8 A. The diagram is okay. I have seen it, and obviously I have seen
9 also the part, but I can't remember it today.
10 Q. Was this page also prepared by members of your team?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And, finally, if we can turn to the last page of
13 the exhibit as it is in e-court which would be English page 10 and also
14 B/C/S page 10.
15 Q. This appears to be the same document as we saw at page 4 but with
16 the addition of a to/from heard on the upper left-hand corner of the
17 page. Have you this piece of paper before, with this to/from header
18 [Overlapping speakers]
19 A. No, that one I can't recall.
20 Q. And are you familiar with the name of the person on top, the
21 Captain Hansen? Do you know that person?
22 A. I can't remember him from Sarajevo, no. But so how he comes into
23 this picture, I don't know.
24 Q. Now -- so with the exception of this addition of the header on
25 that last page, does this document accurately reflect the information
1 that you received and your own observations of the explosion in Hrasnica
2 on 7 April 1995?
3 A. Yes, it's the same case as we had on page 2 so.
4 Q. The whole document I'm asking about --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- the whole report?
7 A. Yeah, the whole report is --
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would offer P582 which was
9 previously marked for identification into evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Number is already assigned, Your Honours. It is
13 MFI, so it just becomes exhibit. And it's P582, as I understand it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And therefore is now admitted.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could please have 65 ter 15364 on the
19 Q. And this is the 7 April 1995 VRS Main Staff situation report
20 signed by Manojlo Milovanovic. And I'll ask for page 4 in the English,
21 please, and page 3 in the B/C/S. And if I could draw your attention more
22 towards the bottom of the page in both documents, point number 3 which
23 says, "In the SRK/Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area of responsibility ..."
24 And I'll draw your attention to the beginning of that first
25 paragraph that reads:
1 "In the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade area of
2 responsibility, at 0600 hours, the enemy opened fire on the Famos
3 factory" -- I'm sorry, "the enemy opened very heavy fire on the Famos,"
4 F-a-m-o-s, "factory and the neighbourhoods of" -- I apologise because I'm
5 going to mispronounce these, "Grlica," G-r-l-i-c-a, and
6 V-o-j-k-o-v--i-c-i. And then it goes on, "from the direction of Gradina,
7 Igman and Lasica."
8 And then if we could have the next page, please. I'm sorry,
9 page 5 in the English but it remains 3 in the B/C/S.
10 And this is under (b) situation in the corps and I'll draw your
11 attention to where it reads:
12 "The enemy activity was adequately responded to whereby an air
13 bomb, 250 kg was launched on the centre of Hrasnica."
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be the next page in the B/C/S.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Oh, I'm sorry. So it would be page 4 in the
17 Now, Major, can you tell us whether, on 7 April 1995 prior to
18 your hearing the air bomb explosion, can you tell us whether you observed
19 any fire being directed from the centre of Hrasnica towards the Famos
20 factory or any other location.
21 A. We did not see anything unusual that morning. It was a normal
22 morning. Always some firing in the area of the Famos factory but nothing
23 unusual this morning. It was what we called a quiet morning.
24 Q. And when you say there was always some firing in the area of the
25 Famos factory I'm asking you specifically about fire directed from the
1 centre of Hrasnica [overlapping speakers]
2 A. [Indiscernible]
3 Q. [Overlapping speakers] sorry, from the centre of Hrasnica out
4 toward the Famos factory?
5 A. We did not observe anything like that, that morning.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor kindly turn the microphone
7 towards her, please. Thank you.
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 15364 at
9 this time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 15364 receives number P1048,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1048 is admitted.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If we could please see 65 ter 10144 on the
16 screen. Oh, I misspoke. It's 10114. Thank you. And as it is coming
17 up, this is the forensic on-site report of 7 April 1995 drafted by the
18 forensics and KDZ anti-terrorism department.
19 Q. Major, have you had the opportunity to see this document prior to
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And had the opportunity to review its contents?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now does the information in this report comport with the
25 information that you and your team gathered regarding this incident?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. And with the -- and with -- in its description of the parts of
3 the bomb that were found, does it comport with what you saw?
4 A. Yes, it does.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would tender 65 ter 10114.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10114 receives number P1049,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1049 is admitted.
11 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, that concludes my examination of
12 this witness. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
14 Is the Defence ready to start its cross-examination,
15 Mr. Stojanovic?
16 Mr. Overgard, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
17 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look again at P582
22 in e-court. Let us look at the page 1 of the English version of this
23 document. In the statement and in this document as well, it reads, inter
25 "At 0840 hours on the 8th of April there was a major explosion in
1 Hrasnica village."
2 Then it goes on to say --
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's the 7th of April. At least that's what it
4 reads both in English and in the translation.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
7 Then it goes on to say:
8 "Due to the ban on movement, it was not possible, to date, to
9 conduct a full investigation."
10 Q. Can you please explain to the Court what this "ban on movement"
12 A. We were told by the commander of the 4th Motorised Brigade, I
13 don't remember his name anymore, but to go back to our accommodation. We
14 did so, and when we arrived there, there were three soldiers at the gate
15 to the accommodation. We went in, and when we tried to go out again, we
16 were not allowed to -- to leave accommodation for doing investigation or
17 visit the civilian police. We were not allowed to leave accommodation
18 until late that evening. I think it was around 7.00, 8.00 in the
19 evening, we were allowed to move. We went then back to -- to the site
20 just to have a look but the darkness was coming so there was not too much
21 that we could do at the site at that moment.
22 Q. How long after you were informed about the explosion did you
23 arrive at the scene? What do you think?
24 A. It is a bit difficult today to say, but half an hour, something
25 like that. Because we went first to the civilian police station. There
1 was nobody. And then we went directly to -- to the site where the
2 explosion occurred.
3 Q. And can you remember how long you stayed at the scene before you
4 were told to leave by the members of the 4th Motorised Brigade?
5 A. I can't say anymore accurate, but it was not very long period.
6 Maximum 15 minutes; 10, 15 minutes.
7 Q. Would I be correct if I were to say that you actually arrived
8 before the investigation crew of the criminal police of the
9 Security Services Centre Sarajevo?
10 A. Yes. We were -- as we recall the first one into the scene after
11 the -- after the explosion.
12 Q. And were you able to get any information about why they would not
13 allow you to do your job?
14 A. No, we were not given any reason otherwise, but we were not given
15 any reason why we had to stay in accommodation.
16 Q. Throughout that whole day, you were not permitted to leave the
17 place of your accommodation at all; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Did you inform your superiors at any point about the problem that
20 you had with the command of the 4th Motorised Brigade that day?
21 A. Yes, we did. We informed our headquarter in Sarajevo.
22 Q. Did they intervene? Did they send anyone to get in touch with
24 A. They came patrol from the French forces at the airport to visit
25 us and to -- just to -- to ask us about what was -- had happened in
1 Hrasnica. They, too, were detained in our accommodation, were not
2 allowed to leave. They -- as I recall it, they were given the permission
3 after a while -- I don't know how -- anymore remember how long they
4 stayed. But they stayed for a while and then we were allowed to go back
5 to the airport later on that -- in the afternoon. But that was strictly
6 from accommodation and back to airport area.
7 Q. That day, at 1900 hours, when you again went to the scene, did
8 you note any changes compared to the situation in the morning when you
9 first arrived at the scene?
10 A. There were obviously people had been around on -- on -- in the --
11 on the site there, but -- and the -- one body I saw inside the damaged
12 house was removed. Also that female that died was removed. So I
13 can't -- I cannot remember -- seeing first time either, but obviously she
14 was there in -- in the vicinity. So -- and as the darkness was coming,
15 7.00 in the evening, we were not able to see too much, so we were very
16 quick or --or, we didn't stay for a long period on -- on the site. We
17 had to wait until the morning when the daylight came back.
18 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that in the morning you did see one
19 body. I would like you to tell the Trial Chamber what it was that you
21 A. Yes, I saw two legs and with uniform trousers on and boots coming
22 out of a pile of bricks. The legs were not moving. But at -- when I
23 discovered that, that was the same moment as the commander came and
24 called us to come to him and -- ordered us back to accommodation, so
25 nothing more for me to do with that. So ...
1 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And did you get the impression that this
2 was a -- the body of a uniformed soldier?
3 A. Yes, it was uniformed trousers and military boots.
4 Q. You did not see the woman, the body of the woman, about which you
5 received information later that she was killed or was a victim.
6 A. I cannot remember seeing her at the site, no. The information
7 about her came later on, and we did not see her before -- the day after,
8 at the morgue, as I remember it today.
9 Q. You were told to leave the scene at the point when you found that
10 body; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I will complete those questions with the following question:
13 Was the body in the building that was demolished, or was it outside of
14 the building that was knocked down at the time?
15 A. I'm not sure I understand the question right. Because the body,
16 I could see just see the legs. I couldn't see anything else. The house
17 was demolished. It was falling down in bricks, a pile of bricks inside
18 the house from the roofs -- or from the walls, of course. So ... this is
19 what I can say. The area around the site was very much damaged; damaged
20 roofs and walls, windows, and so on. But that house especially that had
21 been closest to the impact or the explosion was totally demolished.
22 Q. Do you remember that the building, the school building or --
23 there was a school building next to the place where the bomb exploded?
24 A. Yeah, what was inside each of these houses, I cannot remember
1 Q. I would now like to direct your attention to P582 again that you
2 have in front of you, where, among other things, you say in this
3 paragraph 2 in the English version, among other things, you say:
4 "The weapon was supposedly fired from a truck in the area of
5 Ilidza at grid BP 817 564."
6 And then you say:
7 "The firing point was not observed by UNMOs."
8 When you make a note of this kind in your report, what do you
9 mean when you say "the firing point was not observed"?
10 A. The -- by that, we are honest to say that this was not
11 UNMO-confirmed observation. This has been told us by witnesses, civilian
12 witnesses, or other sources.
13 Q. When you say that the firing point was not observed by UNMOs, do
14 you only think here of your own team, or do you mean other teams as well,
15 from that area?
16 A. Yes, other UNMO teams or UNMOs in the vicinity. If they could
17 tell us, we will say it is UNMO confirmed, and we rely on the
18 observation; otherwise we just say we have the information but it is not
19 UNMO confirmed.
20 Q. Are you able to recall which day? Was it on the 7th at any point
21 in time? In the evening? Or the 15 minutes in the morning? Or on the
22 8th that you received information, either from the army or from the
23 civilian, that the bomb came from Ilidza?
24 A. Exactly what -- when we received that information, I cannot
25 recall today.
1 Q. When you look at this document, are you able to say when it was
2 sent out to your superiors?
3 A. It was sent a couple of days after the incident. So if it was
4 the 9th or 8th or 9th or -- I'm not quite sure because it took some time
5 to negotiate, first of all, to have investigation, to see these shrapnels
6 found and to measure them, and be -- the team, four of us, worked with
7 this the following days. So exactly when it was sent I will not say.
8 But maybe 9th in the evening or -- or even 10th in the evening, with --
9 because we sent reports daily, but this report that was daily sitreps,
10 this report was sent as a special report. I think it was delivered to
11 the headquarter, Sarajevo, 9th or 10th.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could I specifically draw your
13 attention to the B/C/S version of the date, time, group where there seems
14 to be a transcription or -- I couldn't call it translation error, but in
15 the English, I see 101310 B, whereas in the B/C/S version, I see
16 10131 A3, which seems to be different.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I also noted that.
18 Thank you. And this is precisely why I put this question. Because from
19 what I understand from the B/C/S version, it seems that it could be the
20 3rd of April, 1995. This is what causing confusion. If I may ask the
21 witness perhaps to explain.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But under those circumstances why would you
23 rely on the B/C/S version if there's a clear transcription error? But
24 then why not ask the witness could have you a look at the date, time,
25 group and could you tell us whether it was -- on day it was sent. That
1 is easier than to make all kind of excursions around what apparently is
2 the real question.
3 Could you have a look at the date, time, group, and could you
4 tell us what that means in terms of this report being drafted or being
6 THE WITNESS: This has been drafted the 10th of April at 1300
7 hours, or 1310 Bravo time. So it was delivered right after that. I
8 think in -- it is the date, time, group of -- put on when we delivered
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, this is the very practically and concrete way of
12 approaching this matter which seems to be caused not by any unclarity in
13 the original but, rather, by the B/C/S version not being -- not
14 accurately reflecting what the original says.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Would it be correct to say, in reading the document, that UNMO
18 did not establish where the firing point was of said modified shell and
19 that all information about the direction of the incoming shell was
20 received from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina or from some other
21 witnesses at the scene?
22 A. Exactly which sources gave us this information about the firing
23 point, I'm not able to remember clearly today. But it is -- as we say,
24 it is not UNMO confirmed. It came from that place. But this whole
25 investigation supports the fact that it came from that direction, due to
1 the fact that the windows along the route it had before exploding. The
2 device exploded, was -- the windows were damaged -- damaged. And so it
3 clearly was a -- you can say some traces of the -- where it came from.
4 Q. According to your best recollection, are you able to tell us if
5 the shell exploded as it hit the ground or it exploded before impact?
6 A. As I remember it today, it has to be -- there was no crater, so
7 it has -- must have exploded in the air, just over the house; that is,
8 when you have an explosion on the ground, you will have a crater. There
9 was no crater. It was just demolished house and roofs, windows.
10 So I would say today that it exploded in the air.
11 Q. And would you agree with me that it is more difficult for any
12 expert to determine the incoming direction of a shell if there is no
13 marking on the ground?
14 A. It may be a bit more difficult, but it is not impossible due to
15 the fact that it came -- this device obviously came very low. So it --
16 the traces along the route it followed before explosion was clear.
17 Q. But you did not see the trajectory yourself. Am I correct?
18 A. That is correct. As I explained earlier, I was in the
19 living-room with no windows that way, that direction.
20 Q. Do you remember the testimony by a soldier of the B and H army at
21 an Igman observation post who asserted that he had seen a projectile in
22 flight and who said that shortly before impact, the bomb opened up and
23 that a parachute appeared at the tail?
24 A. I remember there was some talk about a parachute, but I can't
25 remember that statement from -- from -- where it came from. And we did
1 not find any remains of any parachute, as I remember, so ...
2 I don't remember that one. Sorry.
3 Q. If you permit me, I want to ask you this: Do you recall giving a
4 statement to the Prosecution on the 8th of September, 1995, and then on
5 the 29th of April and the 30th of April, 1996, again regarding these
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D819 in
9 e-court, please.
10 Q. Sir, I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 11; page 3
11 of the B/C/S version. And page 3, one paragraph but last in the English
12 version. In the statement that I have just referred to and which you
13 confirmed giving, you said, among other things:
14 "A member of an Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina observation post
15 on Igman claimed that he had seen the bomb while it was flying, and he
16 said that shortly before the bomb landed, it opened and a parachute came
17 out of the back."
18 Does this refresh your memory --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- because this was immediately after the event? Are you also
21 able to tell us what was exactly going on here? What were you told and
23 A. I don't remember that one - I'm sorry about that - because it is
24 was some years ago. So from this detail, I don't quite clearly remember.
25 Q. Thank you. While we're on this page, I just wanted to ask you to
1 look at the middle of this page where it reads amongst other things --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we don't have the
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] "We entered the house which was
5 hit by the bomb."
6 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters do not have the reference.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, could you be more precise.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we are
9 able to see it. In the English version this is the third paragraph from
10 the top. In the B/C/S version it's the fourth paragraph. If I permit
11 me, Your Honours, I just wanted to draw the witness's attention to this.
12 Q. It states:
13 "We went inside the house where the bomb had landed. It was as
14 good as impossible to determine the direction of fire."
15 And then you go on to say, sir:
16 "The only technical trace to determine the direction was that in
17 the probable direction of fire all windows were broken ..."
18 My question is this: Why did you say then, and you're saying
19 more or less the same thing now, that it was almost -- or practically
20 impossible to determine the direction of fire?
21 A. This -- as I said then, the only thing we had to go on was the
22 trace with the broken windows in that -- along that street, leading
23 directly against the confrontation line and Ilidza. That's the only
24 thing I can say.
25 Q. Thank you. I will finish with this question: In view of what
1 you found at the scene the following day, would the testimony of the
2 B and H army soldier be correct in any way that he had seen a bomb which
3 shortly before impact opened and that a parachute appeared at the tail?
4 A. Well, to say if he is correct or not cannot be confirmed. But we
5 have taken this into the papers afterwards, just to review and let other
6 know what he had seen.
7 So other sources also, as I remember, supported his observations,
8 but I don't recall all the details about that. So what was given in the
9 statement in 1995, I think, is -- or 1996, is -- is -- is correct. Has
10 to be. Because the memory, we can submit, is now 18 years ago. So I
11 can't give any more details about the incident than given in the written
12 statement here, no.
13 Q. This statement, did it also -- or did you take into account also
14 this statement about the -- the -- the shell that was fired?
15 A. I'm not understanding the questions. I'm not mixing, because
16 this statement is given long after we did the team statement, so there's
17 a difference in time, and then this is done in a questionnaire by a
18 policeman visiting me afterwards, and we -- I answered -- answered him
19 upon -- from my few notes I had left, so ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- Mr. Stojanovic, in your question, were you
21 referring to the information provided by a BiH soldier, or were you
22 referring to the statement as put on paper given by this witness?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me rephrase the question.
24 Q. In your statement --
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you just first answer my question, then that
1 might clarify already quite a few things.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since this
3 witness said in his statement that the ABH soldier had claimed to have
4 seen a flying bomb, all I wanted to hear from this witness was whether,
5 when they took position with regard about the firing point of that bomb,
6 did he take this testimony into account as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So the reference was to the BiH soldier and not to
8 the statement of this witness.
9 Did you, when you were interviewed, did you -- and when you made
10 the report at the time, did you include that information that you had
11 received from a BiH soldier?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember if the BiH soldier came -- or that
13 information came to us as -- when we provided the -- or before we
14 provided the team report or if it came to me afterwards. I cannot
15 remember that. But if this -- I don't -- if I understand the question
16 right, if I've -- are considering the BiH soldier's statement, we have no
17 statement from him, as I know. It's just an information given by a
18 soldier or other sources exactly which sources, but this led to the
19 conclusions we have in writing.
20 And also, as I say, they are not conclusions. They are just
21 giving facts.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier said "last question," but a few
24 others followed.
25 Did you mean by, I'll -- did you mean to say that this is the end
1 of your cross-examination or it was the last question before the break?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I have a few
3 more documents. Therefore, I believe I will be finished during the next
4 session. Thank you. And if I'm not mistaken, I think this is the time
5 for the break.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was unclear from where you said "I will
7 finish with this question."
8 We will take a break, Witness, and we resume in approximately
9 20 minutes from now. Would you please be so kind as to follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
15 Meanwhile, the use the opportunity for the following, and it's
16 about the testimony of Erin Gallagher: The Chamber notes, and we hereby
17 also put it on the record, that as suggested by informal correspondence
18 sent to the Chamber on the 22nd of February, 2013, the parties have come
19 to an agreement whereby the direct examination of Witness Erin Gallagher,
20 will commence following the testimony of Witness RM513 towards the end of
21 this week and will be limited to material related to maps.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: This is further confirmed by the Prosecution's list
24 of exhibits to be used by the witness sent on the 25th of February, which
25 includes only exhibits for use with the witness with respect to the map
1 materials in question.
2 And the remainder of her direct examination shall continue on
3 another date, as will the cross-examination.
4 My first question to the witness is whether what I said correctly
5 reflects the agreed -- the parties. Yes. Let me check.
6 Yes, whether that reflect -- this correctly reflects the agreed
7 position of the parties.
8 MR. GROOME: That does, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I -- and my apologies to you, Witness,
10 for one more second, if you would allow me. The Chamber also notes that
11 in a motion which was filed by the Prosecution on the
12 22nd of February concerning this witness, that the Prosecution seeks
13 leave to amend Ms. Gallagher's 65 ter summary. In light of the Chamber's
14 guidance concerning such amendments, which are to be found at transcript
15 pages 1637 up to 1639, the Chamber considers this formal request to be
17 Mr. Overgard, it's not very polite to continue speaking when you
18 enter the courtroom. Apologies for that.
19 Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his cross-examination.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have P3 in
21 e-court, page 4. Can we please zoom in on the left-hand bottom corner.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Witness, we have a map here in front of us provided by the
24 Prosecution which is an exhibit in this case. It shows the location of
25 Hrasnica and Ilidza.
1 Can you please try, if it is possible, to use this map, but we
2 also have another map showing Hrasnica in more detail if you're not able
3 to handle this map, to indicate the place where you and your observation
4 post was in April of 1995. Is this a suitable map for you to do that?
5 A. Yeah, I think so.
6 Q. Thank you. I would kindly then ask the usher to give you a pen
7 so that you can mark the location where you were with your observation
9 A. Okay. If I'm right, I'm -- this map I haven't seen for years, or
10 too much on. It's not a detailed. But we were located in the area which
11 I'm now -- now blue colour. I believe --
12 Q. [No interpretation]
13 A. I believe in the foot of Igman, in the first houses when you come
14 down the hill-side. So it's more ... I'm not sure on this map. I cannot
15 say exactly. This pen also -- so somewhere -- somewhere here in that
16 area. But I can't say exactly.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You're also on your feet. I also missed any
20 marking, if there is any marking.
21 Now I see is it -- I see a different colour blue at the bottom
22 part of the -- just below the word "Hrasnica."
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see two little dots. Could you -- could you
25 add a large O to that or OP for observation post.
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. It comes -- okay.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's at least now we have the -- more or
3 less the centre of Hrasnica.
4 Can you see it, Ms. Hochhauser?
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. Thank you, Judge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Can you please now indicated to the best of your recollection the
9 point of impact of that projectile? And put a circle around it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, in order to have any benefit of
11 that, we need a more detailed map, because, otherwise, we get -- I do not
12 know whether we have a more detailed map.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can use
14 the map in P3 on page 36. And it's page 31 in the hard copy.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might be a better idea, although, there,
16 perhaps part of the overview is lost. But you said it was page -- now,
17 first, if this one is --
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this map should first be saved. But before
20 we assign a number to it perhaps we -- we focus, first of all, a hard
21 copy page 31 in P3.
22 Madam Registrar, could this one be saved at least, whatever
23 number to be assigned to it temporarily.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Page number 4, as marked by the witness of
25 Exhibit P3, receives number D241, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. You said it
2 was --
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- 4. This could not be possibly be page 4 of P3.
5 It looks more as if it is ...
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 4 in e-court,
7 Your Honours. And page 1 in hard copy.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: If it is page 4 in e-court, I must apologise for the
10 comments. Yes, it's page 1 in the hard copy. That's clear. Let's
11 perhaps work with the other page number you referred to, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Can we
13 please have page 36 in e-court, if I'm not mistaken.
14 Thank you.
15 Q. Here we have a map of the Hrasnica area. If you can assist us
16 with this map and tell us whether you can find your bearings by looking
17 at this map right now.
18 A. Hmm ... I'm not quite familiar with this map. If the G10 spot in
19 the middle there is the impact site, then our location was somewhere
20 here. I'm not sure where the so-called Famos factory is located here.
21 So it's too long a period since I've been there and seen maps, so I'm not
22 sure anymore of -- of the map.
23 Q. Thank you. Then could you please put OP beneath the circle so
24 that, in the future, we know what this refers to.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Thank you. Could you please now tell us if you remember that, at
2 one point, you observed a mortar unit of the ABH in the area called
3 Kovaci in Hrasnica?
4 A. Yes. We once saw mortars here.
5 Q. Can you tell us if you intervened and requested these mortars of
6 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to be removed from that location.
7 A. Yes, we did. We discovered them when coming down the so-called
8 convoy road, down to Hrasnica, and we reported them to our headquarters.
9 And when we -- after a while, the same afternoon, went back to see if
10 they were there still. They were removed. They were not there anymore.
11 Q. Is it possible to see in this map the approximate position where
12 you observed the ABH mortar unit?
13 A. I'm not sure where the convoy road, what is the convoy road here,
14 coming down from the mountain. There are more roads than I was quite
15 aware of was there. This was not roads we used. But ... if ... no, I
16 cannot, because I'm not quite aware where the convoy road comes down to
17 the village or to the houses, because it was just before we -- on the end
18 of our -- or the starting point for the convoy road just before that,
19 behind two houses, [indiscernible] blocks, we saw them. And -- I'm not
20 quite sure on a map anymore, I'm sorry.
21 Q. How long before the landing of that projectile in April 1995 did
22 you caution and warn the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina that they should
23 remove the mortars?
24 A. First of all, we didn't do anything else but report the mortars
25 to our headquarters. Then we went out to see if they still were there
1 but they were removed, so someone has -- had -- had warned them or told
2 them to remove them.
3 The dates is no longer clear, but I believe it was -- yeah, I
4 can't say in days, how many days before but that was a period before.
5 Because at the moment it was me and one Argentinian UNMO, and he -- I
6 believe he left in that period, so I can't say in number of days anymore.
7 I haven't reviewed that report, because that was, of course, in our daily
8 sitrep to headquarters in the afternoon.
9 Q. You had been asked in the previous cases about the location of
10 the headquarters of the ...
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the name of the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the unit,
14 Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. To your recollection, where was the Command of the
17 4th Motorised Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. We had one headquarter very close to the confrontation line. In
19 which building I don't remember exactly anymore, but it was -- yeah, of
20 course, when I say "close to the confrontation lines," against Ilidza, it
21 is in the houses just before that, so exactly which house I don't
22 remember anymore. Sorry, I cannot speculate.
23 Q. Can you identify on this map in front of you the approximate
24 location of the 4th Motorised Brigade Command HQ.
25 A. Yeah, I will try. It's -- it's -- that was the blocks where
1 the -- has to be in the area here. Around that, but that's it
2 approximately. I can't say anything exact.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you just mark "4 MB" above that.
4 A. Try it like that.
5 Q. Thank you for your assistance. I think this will suffice.
6 In view of what you discussed before, will you agree with me that
7 the Command of the 4th Motorised Brigade was in the residential area of
8 Hrasnica in a civilian building?
9 A. If there were any civilians living in the building. But, of
10 course, it was in the village, yes.
11 Q. To the best of your recollection, what kind of building that was,
12 where the Command was.
13 A. It was, you can say, a -- a block with apartments, which had
14 earlier been apartments but now used for military.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you also tell us do you remember if there were
16 any lower-ranking units, such as battalions, that were stationed in
18 A. There was one more headquarters, yes, more in the direction of
19 the Famos factory at the other end of Hrasnica. What -- if that was a
20 battalion or brigade headquarter, I don't remember. I believe it was a
21 battalion headquarter. But, again, I believe today that it was the one.
22 Q. Does that exist in this map; and can you mark the location?
23 A. I cannot mark it on the map anymore.
24 Q. Can you also please mark the police station building where you
25 went on that morning of the 7th of April.
1 A. Yeah, exactly again, as I -- but in this area here. I -- I don't
2 remember exactly the building because this -- I can't remember the map
4 Q. Thank you. This facility to the right of the mark that you just
5 put and to the north from the alleged point of impact, do you recall that
6 this facility was actually a school?
7 A. There was school in that area. Exactly, again, which building on
8 a map, I cannot point it.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
10 can we now look at two clips from two films --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you -- would you like to have this one saved
12 and do you want to tender that?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Thank you.
14 I apologise, we need this to be saved and to be given a number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, page 36 of document P3 as marked by
16 the witness receives number D242, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D242 is admitted into evidence.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, may I take it that the previously
20 marked map, that we don't need that any further?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I will use
22 it once again with the next document and the area of Kovaci that is shown
23 on the map where the mortars were. Thank you.
24 Now, for the record, I would just like toe say that this is
25 1D817. There will be no audio accompanying this footage, and it lasts
1 one minute and three seconds.
2 After that, I would kindly ask the witness to comment and to see
3 if that managed to refresh his memory.
4 Thank you. Can we now look at the footage.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please now
7 look at the next clip, which is 1D816. This is also a segment of
8 50 seconds, and we shall then comment on it together.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, for the record,
11 I would like to say that these clips come from the footage entitled: The
12 4th Motorised Brigade of Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the road of war.
13 And this footage was taken in 1992.
14 Q. Now, my question is: When you saw this first clip, do you
15 remember this being a gym in the Aleksa Santic school and that the second
16 footage was the inspection of the 4th Motorised Brigade in the courtyard
17 of the school on Aleksa Santic Street. Can you recognise any of the
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I would object to that question on
20 a couple of grounds. But, first off, given that these clips are both
21 from 1992, a time-period when this witness not in Sarajevo, I think we
22 should break down what he -- whether he recognises just the location from
23 the first clip, which was the first question. The second question was
24 asking whether he recognised what was happening in the clip which he
25 couldn't possibly have.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's take it one by one. Let's first -- whether
2 the witness was there in 1995 or 1992 if the building has not change, you
3 may recognise. I can recognise quite some buildings that are already
4 there for 300 years.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I agree. That's why I ask that it be broken
7 JUDGE ORIE: The first question was the gym you saw. You don't
8 have to confirm that it was a gym because we can see that all. Do you
9 recognise the gym as being the gym in the school as Mr. Stojanovic asked
11 THE WITNESS: No, I cannot. I once had the opportunity to be in
12 that gym, but I could not recognise it from that, from this clip.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But there is no reason to assume it was not the gym,
14 is there?
15 THE WITNESS: No, it was a gym; but where, I don't know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you do not exclude for the possibility that
17 it is the gym as suggested to you.
18 THE WITNESS: No, is not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Please proceed. Next question, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. The second clip shows a review in front of the school facility,
23 and you can see those houses behind the training area.
24 So I'm asking you whether that would make you remember that that
25 is the school in Hrasnica the way you remember it in 1995.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, let's take it step by step.
2 First, when you saw this yard with people lined up, did you
3 recognise that spot where that was.
4 THE WITNESS: I did not, no.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You did not.
6 Therefore, the next question is moot. But you have no reason to
7 believe that it's not the place as suggested by Mr. Stojanovic.
8 THE WITNESS: It can be. I just haven't seen from that angle
9 maybe. That's an easy --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Now I would like to ask you whether during the time you spent in
13 the area of Igman and Hrasnica, you had any information that the school
14 was used for military purposes.
15 A. I cannot say that I was. I was not familiar with that at all.
16 Q. Very well. Now, I would like to ask you to tell us, you
17 mentioned the blue road. You mentioned the road over Mount Igman. In
18 1994 and 1995, who held that area of Igman, in the military sense?
19 A. It was the BiH forces. So -- because we inspected and used that
20 road also to patrol on Mount Igman area, from the Sierra India team in
22 Q. Did you receive information about whether there were any civilian
23 facilities there from the villages on the outskirts, outside of Hrasnica,
24 on the slopes of Igman?
25 A. Depends what civilian facilities you're talking or meaning.
1 There were -- I don't understand the question right. I believe the --
2 there were civilian houses on Igman, and there were also -- but the most
3 of them we visited were abandoned, except for one farm where there was a
4 military headquarter. That one also in a period was a kind of OP or
5 place where we could stay overnight in our own small cabin, when we were
6 patrolling on Igman. Just the position of that on maps and so on, I
7 cannot recall today, but there -- yeah, I cannot answer the question more
9 Q. I would like you to tell us if you remember if these were
10 villages that were inhabited until the war with Serb inhabitants or
11 Muslim inhabitants.
12 A. I cannot remember which village had which population, or if they
13 were Serb or Muslim. I'm not able to do that today, no.
14 Q. In patrolling the Igman and the slopes of Igman, did you see
15 artillery weapons deployed in this area by the Muslim army?
16 A. I cannot remember that we saw artillery up there, no.
17 Q. Can you please tell us how familiar you are with the exclusion
18 zone of 20 kilometres, heavy weapons exclusion zone, around Sarajevo?
19 A. Yes, there was an exclusion zone where these weapons should not
20 be. I did not see artillery, so more than 80, 88 millimetres, inside
21 Hrasnica area or on Mount Igman. I saw these pieces when coming down, as
22 we mentioned before here. This might have been 120 millimetres, but as
23 we didn't see them close, I cannot state that.
24 Q. I'm asking you this because I would again like to see in
25 electronic -- in e-court, document 53, page 4, which we had the
1 opportunity to see a little bit earlier.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is now Exhibit D241. D241.
3 Could we please zoom in on the lower left-hand corner of this map?
4 JUDGE ORIE: We need some patience first.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we zoom in on
6 this part where it says "Hrasnica." Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, can I now please ask you to indicate on the map, if you
8 see it, the area named Kovaci and the place where you saw these mortars
9 that you concluded were 120-millimetre mortars.
10 A. Yeah, I saw it before we zoomed too much here. Okay. Convoy
11 road comes down there, yeah.
12 Q. [No interpretation]
13 A. Yeah, it has to be somewhere in this area here.
14 Q. Can you mark that with the letters MB, "minobacaci," mortars.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you. And now I would just like to ask you to tell us if
17 you would agree with me, to save a little bit of time, to say that in
18 relation to Hrasnica Ilidza lies to the north-west. You can see this on
19 the map. And if the projectile came from Ilidza, would then that be the
20 north-west direction?
21 A. Yeah, north, north-west. Yeah. Yes, I will agree on that.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I would like
24 to mark and tender now this document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, we have now the -- the second version of
1 this document. We started with the document as marked before, which was
2 D241, which was MFI'd. I think -- let me see now.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: For an unknown reason, the marking disappeared.
5 Could we invite the witness to again mark, and now the marking to be
6 preserved, the position of the mortars. And, again, indicate that this
7 was the MB.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this one, which now contains the
10 markings of both of the observation post and of the mortar position is
11 the one you'd like to tender?
12 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- now D241 MFI'd, as marked by the
14 witness, receives number D243, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And D243 --
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, I'd just like to point out I don't
17 have an objection to the document being entered but not for -- I would
18 like to point out that these are 1992 confrontation lines. So to the
19 extent that we're not --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is that an objection to the admission, or is that a
21 comment in relation to weight to be given to this document in evidence?
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It's not an objection to admission. It's --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it will be admitted. And then you may
24 make any further observations.
25 Madam Registrar, I see that now the second marking is gone again.
1 But it's now saved. Yeah, it's now saved.
2 Then ...
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the sake of the record in the transcript it
4 always mays MB. In the -- in the map the marking was MD.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So that should be the same.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And D243 is admitted into evidence.
8 Now, Mr. Stojanovic, am I right in -- did the witness not mark on
9 the other map, the -- the observation post as well and is there any risk
10 that we have contradictory evidence here, the one being very vague in
11 Hrasnica, whereas, I think the witness marked the -- let me see.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly have a look at D242. Now, the
14 marking of the observation post here is not even near to where it was on
15 the previous map, which can be explained by the scale of the previous
17 I suggest that the parties sit together and that they create a
18 map in which -- agree on where the witness marked the observation post,
19 the other markings, including the headquarters of the
20 4th Mountain [sic] Brigade, and where the mortars were and to make that
21 one document so that we do not have the contradicting evidence and that
22 we then strike this one.
23 If the parties could engage in discussions to do that.
24 Ms. Hochhauser.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Motorised Brigade, yes.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: -- I don't have any problem obviously agreeing
3 with Mr. Stojanovic where the witness has marked. But I think that the
4 bigger problem perhaps is that the witness has said a number of times
5 that these are real approximations because he doesn't feel comfortable
6 being able to mark on the map with any of these locations. And so I
7 wouldn't be able to agree that those, in fact, were the locations but
8 just that where he made marks.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't invite you to agree with that.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to get rid of two maps with markings
12 which are inconsistent and to see what was the most precise one. If you
13 could engage in such an exercise that would be appreciated.
14 Now, one other question. Ms. Hochhauser were you familiar with
15 the footage shown by Mr. Stojanovic; that is, the -- the gym and the
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, I'm not familiar with it. From what I could
18 see it came from a YouTube clip.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, I haven't seen it before.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because there is a suggestion that this was
22 the school and the school-yard in Hrasnica. And at least on the yard
23 which was shown, some military activity was ongoing. To that extent, it
24 could be exculpatory, and I would very much encourage the parties to see
25 whether they can agree, even if it was 1992, which only would suggest
1 that in 1992 such activity took place, but whether they could agree on
2 what is shown, whether these really are the locations as suggested by
3 Mr. Stojanovic. And I think there's an active obligation for the
4 Prosecution to explore potential exculpatory materials as well.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: We will, of course, do that, Your Honour. It
6 would be helpful if Mr. Stojanovic could provide any additional
7 information he has about the provenance of the video other than that it's
8 on -- other than YouTube.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Most important is to have a look at the school and
10 at the houses around the school. That seems to be the -- unless there
11 are two schools exactly the same in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but I would
12 be surprised by that. But, of course, the source to be further explored
13 might help as well.
14 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. I would like to ask you before we move to the next document to
17 tell me this: The way you marked the position of the B and H army mortar
18 units, would that be within the 20-kilometre exclusion zone, in your
19 opinion, or not.
20 A. Of course, within.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at P1049 together, please. And can
22 we look at the first paragraph of this document, please, where, in the
23 report on the forensic on-site investigation drafted on the
24 7th of April, 1995, it is noted that most probably a modified aircraft
25 bomb landed and that the projectile came from the south-west, the Ilidza
1 sector. Would you agree with me in view of what we saw on the map a
2 little bit before that this assertion from the on-scene investigation
3 does not correspond to the actual direction where Ilidza is?
4 A. There is something, if I don't understand it, but -- south-west
5 or -- or west. Well, it's hard for me to tell now to agree on anything
6 about that. As I say -- I'm a bit unfamiliar with the maps at the
7 moment. I cannot place the team location, the OP location, and --
8 correctly because the map is not how I remember it. But, it is as I
9 say [Overlapping speakers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
11 THE WITNESS: Not agree on that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me cut this short.
13 The parties are invited to consider whether Ilidza, at least the
14 village of Ilidza - doesn't say anything more - but whether Ilidza is
15 situated in relation to the spot marked as G10 on hard copy page 31 of
16 P3, whether that is found to the north of north-west of that spot.
17 It seems to be obvious, but otherwise the Chamber even might make
18 such findings. But if the parties could agree on it, that would be
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Thank you for this, Witness. Now I would like to move to a
23 topic that I would also need to question you about. I just need to put a
24 few questions to you.
25 That first day, on the 7th of April, you did not conduct any
1 investigation together with the official authorities of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
3 A. Not on the 7th.
4 Q. When did you personally practically conduct that investigation?
5 A. We had the small, I should say, orientation tour in the evening
6 on the 7th, and the investigation was later on the day after, when we
7 had, I believe -- yeah, on the 8th that would be in the afternoon. And
8 then exactly when we had this shrapnel pieces, and so on, some from the
9 second day, some the third day, on the 9th, so which one I cannot say
10 today. Details there is -- is no longer in my memory.
11 So the first investigation with the BiH authorities was on the
12 9th in the afternoon, as I remember it.
13 Q. On the 7th, from morning until some time -- until 7.00 p.m., you
14 were in the area of your observation post under guard by the
15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it's a
19 good time for a break, and then I can move to some other documents.
20 I am in your hands.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you would expected to finish in the
22 next session, but that apparently has changed now.
23 How much time would you still need after the break?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that I would need
25 some 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 We will take a break but only after the witness has left the
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we please look
13 at 1D818 in e-court, please.
14 Thank you.
15 Q. In view of the last answers you gave me, Mr. Overgard, about the
16 time when you came to the scene, I just wanted you to clarify something
17 for me.
18 In front of us we see an official report of the
19 7th of April, 1995, drafted by the public security station in Ilidza, the
20 crime squad department of the criminal police department which, among
21 other things, states, that the information about the explosion was
22 received on the same day at 0900 hours from the duty team at the Hrasnica
23 police station.
24 And then it goes onto say that on the same day, they went to the
25 scene led by the people who are mentioned there.
1 Now this something that I'm confused about. Mention should also
2 be made of the fact that the following UN Military Observers housed in
3 Hrasnica were also present: Captain Gunn from Great Britain and
4 Captain Overgard from Norway. And they say that the on-site
5 investigation commenced on the same day at 1500 hours.
6 So what I would like to ask you is this: Is this information
7 accurate, or is it what you said, that the investigation was actually
8 carried out without your being present there, on the 7th?
9 A. I remember it now because at that stage when we were there on --
10 in the afternoon, the two of us, yeah, I remember we were there now. We
11 were present. So we were there, but there was not too much investigation
12 done. It was just orientation to see the house, to see the demolition
13 done by the bomb. It was not any analysis of what have happened. Just
14 to get the picture, the big picture, what -- what was damaged here and so
15 on. From that visit on the site, we started to draw the picture which we
16 had earlier here which house had damaged roofs and which one was -- what
17 damages were done to the houses around. That was in the afternoon, yes.
18 I remember it now.
19 Q. Does that mean that the part of your statement where you say that
20 you were at your observation post for that whole day, the 7th of April,
21 under guard of three members of the B and H army, is not correct?
22 A. Yeah, as I remember now, this -- we had a short trip just before
23 dinner. It was a short visit to the site. Exactly we what did at the
24 site, I don't remember. But as I can recall, it was just to -- to get a
25 picture what was damaged because we didn't have the time in the morning
1 to do that. After that, we had to go back to accommodation again. And I
2 don't remember exactly the details around that.
3 Q. Did the members of the B and H army bring you to the scene, or
4 did you yourself leave your location?
5 A. I think -- I think the crime inspector, Hakija, came. Yeah, he
6 came. And took us over to -- to the site.
7 Q. During the investigation on that first day, the 7th of April, do
8 you remember if you found fragments of the projectile that hit in the
10 A. We found some -- some small piece, yes, on that -- when
11 Captain Gunn and me were there. We found -- it was just in the entrance
12 to the house, to the -- at the gate to the house, we found something, a
13 small shrapnel. But that's the only thing I can remember.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek clarification of one of the previous
16 You were asked whether members of the BiH army brought you to the
17 scene. You said, "I think the crime inspector, Hakija ..."
18 Was he a crime inspector within the army or ...
19 THE WITNESS: No, he was a kind of inspector from the civilian
20 police in Hrasnica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer was not that someone of the army but
22 someone of the civilian police took [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe it was him. As I can recall it was
24 him that came to -- to our place and -- and -- and we had -- was allowed
25 to follow him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Does that mean that this police inspector could ask the soldiers
4 who had practically been keeping you from leaving your compound to let
5 you out and go to the scene?
6 A. For sure, he had given -- been given the permission to take us
7 out from -- from the commander.
8 Q. When you say "the commander," who are you referring to?
9 A. Commander of the 4th Brigade. I don't remember his name at the
11 Q. If I told you that that was Fikret Prevljak, does that ring a
13 A. Yes. It does, yes.
14 Q. Thank you. One more question relating to this situation: How is
15 it possible that after three testimonies you have completely forgotten
16 that you were on the site on that first day?
17 A. I've forgot about that afternoon visit I have. But that's --
18 that's the way it is.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that when you visited the scene on
20 the first day, did you notice anyone clearing up the debris and the whole
21 area where the projectile landed?
22 A. No, I cannot.
23 Q. The reason I'm asking you this is that I would like to look at
24 page 2 of this report.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 2 in both versions,
1 Your Honour.
2 Q. In the middle paragraph it says, inter alia, in the middle of
3 this paragraph, "Detailed clearing of the debris revealed" --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot find the reference.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- the interpreters have difficulties finding
6 the part you're reading.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's paragraph 4,
8 the longest one, middle portion.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is that where it reads, "After a thorough clean-up,
10 another" --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: In the middle.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So it reads:
16 "After a thorough clean-up of the debris, another part of the
17 rocket engine and three propellant charge cases were found, and on the
18 roof of the adjacent house, two parts of the fuse were found, most
19 probably from an aircraft bomb."
20 Q. Does this refresh your memory? Do you recall seeing this when
21 you were there, on that first day, the 7th of April?
22 A. That is details I -- I can't say that I remember clearly now.
23 Q. And I will finish with this document, which reads in its
24 penultimate paragraph:
25 "UN Military Observers present on the scene agreed with the
1 opinion of the investigating team regarding the projectile type and the
2 direction from where it was fired."
3 My question is: Do you recall that at any point in time, on that
4 first day, there was any discussion about this issue?
5 A. No, I'm sorry I cannot confirm that.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I suggest --
8 may I tender, in fact, 1D818.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
10 Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D818 receives number D244,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D244 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Overgard, just one more question relating to this on-site
17 Do you remember whether, on that first day or the day after,
18 there was also the investigating judge of the court in Sarajevo with you?
19 A. Yes. She was present, if that was -- I believe it was the second
20 day we saw her first time. On the 8th, as I remember it, but, again, as
21 I remember.
22 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at the same document, page 3 of the
23 English, and page 4 in B/C/S.
24 This, Mr. Overgard, is a document that bears the title: On-site
25 investigation report, drafted by lower court II in Sarajevo, Ilidza
1 department, in 1995, on the 7th of April. And it says the investigating
2 judge was present, Mrs. Jadranka Kadric, and this report notes that you,
3 UN Military Observers, were present there, together with the
4 investigating judge on that 7th of the April.
5 Would this document refresh your memory that this on-site
6 investigation took place on the 7th, not the 8th of April, when the
7 investigating judge was there?
8 A. I have no reason to say that this report is wrong, so, for sure,
9 it -- it is correct, then it was on the 7th she was there first time.
10 That has to be the afternoon then, the afternoon trip, from 1500 to 1600.
11 Sorry, but -- but this report, I believe it's -- it's okay.
12 There's no reason to believe that it is wrong.
13 Q. Then let me ask you, following that answer, would you change that
14 part of the statement where you said about your activities on the 8th on
15 the site?
16 A. Well, then I -- I have to do that, I believe, and say that she
17 was present already, the 7th in the afternoon. I don't remember it, so
18 exact first time she was present, it was chaos. A lot of things
19 happened. We were detained and we were negotiate with the -- with the
20 commander and then also inform headquarters and so on. We had the French
21 there, so we had a lot of things happening. So -- maybe I mix up things
22 a bit, yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, I observe that in the original in
24 B/C/S, there may be written the name of Jadranka Kadric, but it is nearly
25 illegible. The name is missing in the English translation. Just for the
1 sake of the record.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Thank you for that
3 suggestion. I would then ask to see the next page in B/C/S, where we can
4 see it better. And let me ask for the record to focus on the lower part
5 where we see the name of the judge, the signature, and the stamp of the
6 investigation court. I think, here, we can see a little better that it
7 is, indeed, Jasminka Kadric, investigative judge.
8 Thank you, Your Honour, for your assistance.
9 Q. Now, Witness, let me ask you one more thing on this subject and
10 then I'll finish with it. Does it remain in your memory that in the
11 cases in which you testify before, you also stood by your statement that
12 you were present at the on-site investigation with the rest of the team
13 and the investigating judge on the 8th of April, not as you stated today.
14 Do you remember your prior testimony in different cases?
15 A. I can remember that I have given statements, but the details in
16 the statement, sorry, there's a long time since I was in court last time,
17 so I've gone through them but not in detail. So there is no reason for
18 me to say that the statements are wrong, because -- or I will say that
19 the statement, the written things, are probably right. Just my memory
20 today is not the best.
21 Q. Thank you. I completely understand. I just wanted to remove all
22 doubt because that statement is part of the record in the Milosevic case,
23 and I wanted to make sure which corrections you would make now.
24 Now, you mentioned the name of Fikret Prevljak, Commander of the
25 4th Motorised Brigade, and since that name has been mentioned in this
1 courtroom several times before, I'd like to ask you: Do you know, as a
2 former Military Observer in that area, that, in that segment of the
3 territory controlled by the BH Army, there was the entrance and the exit
4 from the tunnel under the airport runway in Sarajevo?
5 A. This tunnel, they started to dig it just before I left the area.
6 So I think I have no knowledge of it being used while I still was there.
7 There was activity in the area. We tried to investigate what it was, but
8 it -- I didn't know exactly or for sure what -- what it was going to be
9 before, I think, it -- yeah, the day I left or some days after. So this
10 tunnel was not active when I was in Hrasnica.
11 Q. You -- did you try to conduct an investigation? Were you
12 prevented from doing so?
13 A. We were not allowed to stop at that place. The -- we had
14 different explanations of what they were doing, but no one mentioned the
15 tunnel, of course. But we -- we had thoughts about what it could lead
16 to, what -- what the activity was, but we had no evidence.
17 Q. Did you have occasion to see that soil is being shipped from that
19 A. Yeah, we saw. Because it was close to the road we used when we
20 were on our way to -- to -- into Sarajevo and over the airport. So we --
21 we saw activity and that they were digging, but we're not allowed to stop
22 and to -- to have a closer look at it. So, at that time, we didn't
23 know -- did not know what they were constructing.
24 Q. Could you tell us which unit denied you access to that area?
25 Which unit of the BH Army?
1 A. No, I -- I cannot recall which one it was.
2 Q. In April 1995, do you remember that it was a period of the
3 beginning of a major BH Army offensive aimed at lifting the blockade of
5 A. There was something, but I don't -- I don't remember the -- the
6 details about that at the moment.
7 Q. Do you recollect at all that it was a time of intensive fighting,
8 intensive combat linked with the BH army's attempt to break out of
10 A. There was a lot of activity, a lot of -- a lot of things
11 happening in April 1995, yes. In Hrasnica especially there was a lot of
12 shooting [Realtime transcript read in error "looting"], and we reported
13 what we saw and what we could investigate. But there -- the whole big
14 picture we did not get before late -- or later on, what was -- what --
15 what was happening in total. That's -- I don't remember that we had any
16 facts reported what -- at -- major event was going on. So on that, I
17 cannot answer you affirmatively.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Overgard, did you say, "In Hrasnica
19 especially there was a lot of shooting," or a lot of "looting"?
20 THE WITNESS: Shooting especially. Looting was not the problem
21 in Hrasnica.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. When you say shooting, do you mean shooting from both sides, both
25 warring parties?
1 A. They were firing from both sides. They were fire exchanging
2 so -- but we were not allowed to the confrontation line too much, so
3 occasionally we were on the Mount Igman road and the blue road up to the
4 position where the French had their check-point. French forces. And we
5 could observe exchange of fire in the front line area, and that was
6 reported, what we saw. But that it was a major break-out going on, we
7 were not aware, I believe, as I remember.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Overgard. Those would be all the questions that I
9 had for you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure
11 whether I've already tendered this, and that is part of the last document
12 that was admitted. I mean the document involving the investigating
13 judge, the last one I used. It's a document already in evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the last document shown on the
16 THE REGISTRAR: That was 1D818, admitted as D244, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, no need to take any further action.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any plans with the
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Maybe you
23 would accept my proposal for it to be MFI'd and then my colleague and I
24 would, in keeping with instructions, view it all, I mean, the entire
25 footage from which we took those two clips regarding this facility.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The entire footage, the Chamber is not aware of.
2 The Chamber has been shown only two portions of that. I suggest that we
3 reserve a number for -- and that at this moment just the two, to the
4 extent that it is possible, Madam Registrar, but if they are uploaded
5 separately it might be a problem.
6 THE REGISTRAR: First video with 65 ter number 1D817 receives
7 number D245.
8 And second video with the number 1D816 receives number D246,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D245 and D246 are marked for identification. And
11 the parties are invited to provide further information and, to the extent
12 possible, agree on location.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before I invite you to put further questions to the
15 witness, Ms. Hochhauser, I have one matter I'd like to raise with the
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ORIE: You explained to us, Witness, that the broken
19 windows allowed you to, although not with great precision, but at least
20 allowed you to establish more or less the direction from where the
21 projectile came.
22 Could you explain to us how -- how -- how broken windows could
23 assist you in establishing the direction of the origin of fire?
24 A. What caused the -- the -- the windows to -- to -- to break, has
25 to be speed, the -- the air pressure, when it passed. I cannot explain
1 it better.
2 As I say, when we were inside the house and we felt that
3 something was coming our direction, we were on our way to the floor. So
4 it was a heavy sound. So it has to be the air pressure, and the sound of
5 that took the windows all along the street directly against the -- the
6 confrontation line.
7 So that's the -- the best explanation I can give.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now let me try to understand that.
9 From the sketch which we find at page 3 - and perhaps we could
10 have a look at it - of P582. Could we have that on the screen, please.
11 Now, you said the -- it was established that -- or at least it
12 was the impression that the projectile had come from north-west.
13 Now, we see a broken window also in southwesterly direction. I
14 see a window just on this picture as it is shown at present. It's to the
15 right of the point of impact, main impact.
16 How do you explain that?
17 A. Because it's close to the impact area or the area where the
18 explosion occurred. Then you will have a more -- all direction pressure,
19 air pressure going out. So that is understandable.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 A. That -- but if you follow the -- the street, then against
22 confrontation line and again you will see more windows that were gone,
23 whatever, not mentioned in this report. That's a pity, but --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I found them also in northerly direction.
25 I find them in northwesterly direction. I -- what made you -- I mean, I
1 do not see any broken window, well, let's say, to the south-east, even
2 where it is close to the point of impact. Did you not find any broken
3 windows there?
4 A. I cannot remember. But I don't think so. If -- if it had been
5 anything a normal in that direction that we found, we would have
6 mentioned it. But as I can recall now, it's -- it's not -- it was not
7 damages or -- or -- in -- in a northerly direction.
8 So this is what we saw at that side, at that time. I cannot find
9 new things today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: To say the least, I would be surprised that if
11 windows are broken at a distance of close to 100 metres, and I'm looking
12 to the two Ws which I find to the -- below and to the right of the
13 crossing --
14 A. Mm-hm.
15 JUDGE ORIE: To find broken windows there and not to find them
16 100 metres north with such an explosion causing considerable damage to
17 the roofs of houses, I would be surprised if all the windows in the
18 houses remaining would still have been intact.
19 A. Yes. I understand your question, but I can't give you a good
21 JUDGE ORIE: And also I do not see why the building which is just
22 a little bit up and to the left of what you called the old school, how
23 that would have been affected by a trajectory which is, as you said, more
25 A. Mm-hm.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering what the -- how you could
2 distinguish between windows broken through the explosion and windows
3 broken through the air pressure caused by the projectile.
4 A. Yeah. That's -- that's a good question. But I'm still -- as I
5 say, I cannot -- not say anything. But we followed the road and the
6 windows were broken further against the confrontation line. But that's
7 the only answer I can give, and for us it was obvious that it had come
8 from that direction. I cannot say anything else today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You said you followed them in the direction of the
10 confrontation line. Do you mean beyond this -- this sketch or what is
11 found on the sketch?
12 A. Yeah. Yeah.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Beyond the sketch.
14 A. We have to go all the way to -- further down the street and then
15 it will -- there are more windows broken but they were not mentioned here
16 because we were concentrating on the nearby area of the impact.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And did you also check whether, more in this map,
18 more to the upper part, whether there are broken window there as well?
19 A. Yeah, we checked around and there was no more windows outside.
20 It was in from -- in the assumpted direction, the windows were broken.
21 And we did not mention them too much. That's -- may be a fault at that
22 time, but -- so I cannot give you a good answer.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
24 Ms. Hochhauser, any further questions for the witness?
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
2 Q. Just to follow up, please, on what we were just discussing about
3 the blown out windows. Can you tell us, Major, what exactly was the
4 process that you undertook when you were talking about following this to
5 the -- following -- when you're describing your observations up to the
6 confrontation line. Can you tell us what exactly it was that you did and
7 what you observed.
8 A. We partly walked, partly drove along the road and we just -- okay
9 windows gone, windows broken, blown in, not out, so -- and, okay, that
10 was the procedure.
11 Q. And for approximately what distance did you do that toward --
12 from the -- from the location of the explosion to the confrontation line
13 toward Ilidza?
14 A. Yes, I cannot say today how far we went, but we went pretty close
15 up to the confrontation line, yes, as long as we could, I believe. As I
16 can remember, we went all the way to the confrontation line found where
17 it started to be broken windows, and so on. But we did not mention that
18 in the -- in the report as we can see today, but ...
19 Q. And the -- the observations that you made on that path that you
20 walked and rode, the observations of the houses and the windows in
21 particular, was that different in nature of what you saw on the other
22 streets in that area or any other directions?
23 A. Oh, yes, yes. This was -- first of all, we were patrolling in
24 the area and driving these roads daily, so this was new ones that had
25 happened that morning, not -- not the day before or earlier.
1 Q. And finally on this topic, can you tell us anything about the --
2 the relative height of the -- of the bomb as you heard it coming in? Did
3 you make any observations --
4 A. No, we did not know what height it was, how high it was above the
5 house when it exploded. We have no indications or things to -- to -- to
6 say anything about that.
7 Q. Okay. I'd like to go back to today's transcript at page 48,
8 line 2. You were asked by Mr. Stojanovic: How is it possible that after
9 three testimonies you have completely forgotten that you were on the site
10 on that first day.
11 And I'd like to, if we could, call up 65 ter D819. I'm sorry,
12 1D819, which is the statement that was referred to at times in
13 cross-examination, I believe; your 1995 statement.
14 And I'd like to, if we can, turn to the top of page 3 in the
15 English, and I hope I'm correct that it's the top of page 4 in the B/C/S.
16 It says there, if I can draw your attention to it, Major, you say
17 that -- you say about the evening of 7 April 1995 that after being told
18 to go back to your accommodations on 7 April:
19 "We managed to negotiate our way out at about 7.00 that night.
20 Gunn and me went back on sites that same evening."
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. And then I'd like to read to you from the Karadzic -- the
23 testimony of your -- the transcript much your testimony in the Karadzic
24 trial at transcript 10034, beginning at line 18, where you were asked
25 this question and answer:
1 "May I draw your attention to page 3 of this same document where
2 you say that he did not want to debate anything with you. He turned you
3 back and then in the next paragraph you say that you somehow managed to
4 negotiate a permission to come to the scene again around 7.00 p.m."
5 And you answered:
6 "Yes, I believe he was there. But the 7.00 p.m. then we -- I
7 don't remember -- but actually I did. We were there in the afternoon but
8 we found that we had to take further investigation the next morning. And
9 the next morning we were also not allowed out of the house, as I remember
10 it now."
11 Does that -- there's additional testimony, but does that refresh
12 your recollection as to the fact that you have in fact testified in past
13 testimony that you returned to the scene on April 7th?
14 A. Yeah. The problem I have to remember if it was 1500 or 7.00 in
15 the evening. I remember clearly it was 7.00 in the evening because it
16 was beginning to be dark.
17 Q. But, sir, you've testified to that fact before that you returned
18 to the scene on the day of the explosion.
19 A. yeah.
20 Q. Major, are you -- I'd like to turn to the question for a moment
21 of the markings that you made on the maps today. Are you able to provide
22 reliable information about the specific locations of buildings or
23 headquarters using the maps D242 or D241, which are the maps that you
24 marked today?
25 A. I'm afraid not. I'm not.
1 Q. Okay. And so it's fair to say that those markings cannot be
2 relied upon to judge distance, for example, or precise location?
3 A. That's correct. I don't remember the locations so good anymore
4 that I can put them exact.
5 Q. On a map?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall today the approximate distances from your UNMO
8 location to the explosion -- to the location of the explosion on
9 7 April 1995, if you recall?
10 A. That house was 200 metres away.
11 Q. And do you recall the approximate distance from your UNMO
12 location to the BiH 4th Motorised Brigade command that you spoke about?
13 A. As I remember, approximately between 900, 1.000 metres --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we say, you earlier said your markings are
15 such that you could not rely upon them for distances.
16 What you're doing now is you're asking about distances in
17 relation to headquarters where the witness said, I was unable to locate
18 it clearly on a map.
19 So I'm a bit confused about whether you want to rely on the
20 recollection of the witness for establishing distances or ...
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Well, Your Honour, I think the ability to place
22 it precisely on a map is different than somebody's recollection of
23 approximately the distances to where they -- someplace they visited from
24 some place they were every day. I can say that this -- that -- if he --
25 that -- if -- sorry. Sorry. That the witness has said that it's not --
1 his marking are not reliable, and I'm asking him now if he can reliably
2 give his recollection of the approximate distance.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you have a distance and you have a map,
4 you're able to locate on that map exactly where it is, isn't it?
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would suggest not.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you know which street to go. If you say it's
7 800 metres, this street, then you can just plot that on a map. But let's
8 hear what the witness says, but I'm slightly confused. But let's hear
9 whether the witness -- and also on what basis he has a recollection of
10 the distance between his observation post and the headquarters of the
11 4th Motorised Brigade.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
13 Q. Sir, if we can take that last question first.
14 Did you -- on what -- did you have the opportunity to ever visit
15 this brigade command?
16 A. Yes. I was there, and -- on several occasions during my stay.
17 There -- why I can give a distance from our accommodation to the spot --
18 or to the place they had the headquarter and where the explosion is what
19 I remember from earlier statements. And also when making the picture in
20 my head from our location to the different places, I can assume where --
21 how -- how far it is. But I cannot give the exact position anymore on
22 the map.
23 Q. Let me ask you this, Major Overgard: The locations that
24 you've -- excuse me, the distances to these locations that are expressed
25 in your prior testimony that we've seen that's now in evidence, the
1 92 ter testimony, do you -- can you affirm that -- that those are the --
2 that -- those are reliable estimations to the best of your recollection?
3 A. The distances is the best I can give and -- but as I say to place
4 things directly on a map on -- today it's very difficult for me. But the
5 distances still using the -- what is left of the mind, is better because
6 I can remember how it looked like when you are looking out the window
7 what -- what houses looked like, and so on. So pictures are better than
8 maps in the mind. In my mind and ...
9 Q. Okay.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, based on the -- the information
11 that's already contained in the 92 ter testimony, on that basis I'll
12 conclude my examination. So I have no further questions for this
13 witness. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Further Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ORIE: I still have a few follow-up questions. Could we
17 again have -- first of all, if you say looking out of the window, were
18 you talking about your accommodation?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And could you see from your accommodation where
21 these headquarters were.
22 A. We can exact -- not exactly see the entrance but we can see the
23 area from -- we used -- there was a window in the roof on the bathroom in
24 that accommodation, and from there, we also used -- we also used that
25 position as an OP, observation post, several times during our stay. So
1 we were used to find how far away buildings and happenings were from that
2 area. So ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: So even when you could not see the entrance, you
4 could see the building.
5 A. Yeah, could see. Estimate where the building was. I don't
6 remember if I saw the roof of it, but we knew the last building we saw
7 that, from there, it is only few metres to the headquarters.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'd like to take you back again to P582.
9 Could that be shown on the screen. And could we slightly zoom
10 in. Not too much, but ... could we zoom in a bit. Little bit more.
11 Little bit more. And a little bit more.
12 Could you indicate on -- on this sketch which road you said you
13 saw more broken windows?
14 A. Yes. If --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that to the bottom, to the left, to the right?
17 A. I believe if we see the sketch like I see it now, it's upwards.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's upwards.
19 A. Yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That means from the cross-roads in the direction of
21 what you call the IMP and the car; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could we zoom out. A bit more.
24 Would you agree with me that on this sketch, that is south-east
25 rather than north-west?
1 A. Hmm. Yeah, you're right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
3 Have the questions by the Bench or by the re-examination, have
4 they caused any need for further questions?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
6 only one question that stems from the questions asked by my learned
7 friend, the Prosecutor.
8 Can we have a look at 1D819. We need page 3 in both versions.
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please look at the second
11 paragraph of this statement of yours. And in the B/C/S, it's
12 paragraph 3. If I understand correctly you gave this statement in
13 September 1995, which is five months after the on-site investigation.
14 You said there as well that on the following day:
15 "Experts came from Sarajevo. In the morning, we were first not
16 allowed to leave our house, so we could only go on-site after lunch. We
17 conducted the investigation together with the BH police."
18 Now, if we look at the statement that you gave five months after
19 your on-site investigation, do you still maintain that this part of your
20 statement is incorrect and that all of this happened on the day that this
21 projectile landed?
22 A. This is more like I remember it, as we started. This
23 investigation 1500, 1600, was something coming up, and -- of course, in
24 something -- I don't think I was -- I was -- this was me writing it.
25 So I believe and we have to stick with this one, because this is
1 how I remember it. This -- this 15 to 1600 on the 7th is just stood
2 there, and -- yes, we were there, but we mixed it and I mixed it together
3 because we were not allowed to go to the scene before -- in the afternoon
4 when the dark was coming. That's why we were there only a short while.
5 This is a little bit confusing also for me, because this document
6 just briefly went through, so no details. So but this document is the
7 one I mean is correct, the one saying that we were allowed at 1500. I
8 just was there, as I remember it, the judge was there in the morning. So
9 this is all, again, it's been mixed, so ... I'm -- I'm not sure anymore.
10 I need to -- more time to -- to -- to recollect all this -- this -- this
11 day, two days.
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Since there seems -- the Judges among themselves
16 would like to verify exactly the direction.
17 Could we have a look at P582 again.
18 Further Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you, and I just repeat now what I said to
20 see whether -- because common understanding of the evidence is important
21 for a Chamber. I asked you in which direction you saw the more broken
22 windows. Up, left, right, or down.
23 And you said up. Which means -- and then I said from the
24 cross-roads in the correction of IMP and car. Therefore, that's not to
25 the left, not to the right, not downwards but up.
1 A. Then I was wrong.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I then put it to you that that is southeasterly
3 direction, rather than north-west.
4 Let me just verify again whether this is common understanding of
5 your testimony among myself and the colleagues.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be sure, when you said, I saw it in that
8 street upwards, that is further upwards where no buildings are further
9 depicted. That is how I understood your testimony.
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That is -- well, let's say --
12 A. I was wrong. [Overlapping speakers] ... not marking here. I say
13 I was wrong. Yeah, you got me there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be quite sure, when you say that you saw
18 more broken windows up in this road further up, upwards, in southeasterly
19 direction is that also where your accommodation was.
20 A. First of all, that is -- I just found that I was -- I said wrong.
21 It should be downwards. Because if I'm right now the -- our
22 accommodation should be in the right upper corner of this drawing.
23 JUDGE ORIE: As we see it now. You say there was your
24 accommodation --
25 A. So if I understand this drawing right now, I have to take a
1 position in our accommodation, and if that is up in a right-hand corner,
2 then we should -- I should go downwards to the confrontation line, if
3 that is right [overlapping speakers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you mark for me where your accommodation was,
5 looking at this map.
6 A. Yeah. If we say [Overlapping speakers] ... I believe --
7 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... we'll ask you to -- so
8 carefully consider where the location of the old school is.
9 A. That one is there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What is north. And could you --
11 A. North we have here in the mark.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could it not be zoomed in again and again.
13 Could we zoom out. Yes.
14 Is there any possibility that you could mark approximately where
15 this -- your accommodation was? And please --
16 A. In that direction, if I'm right. Oh, sorry.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We see that are you now --
18 A. I'm a bit confused now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it assist you if, for example, you would
20 be shown a -- a Google Earth or a Google Maps printout? Would you be
21 better able to orient yourself in relation to where your accommodation
23 A. I hope so, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps we should try to achieve that over the
25 break and make at various scales a Google Maps impressions so as to
1 better enable you to tell us where your accommodation was.
2 Well, this document as now marked by the witness, should be at
3 least MFI'd.
4 Madam Registrar the number would be ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number C4.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, would you share the property
7 of this -- this map, marked map with the Chamber, then we would make it a
8 D exhibit.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours. I have
10 no problem with that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give it a D number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Then document receives D245 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then D245 is marked for identification.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: May I make the suggestion that perhaps over the
17 break Mr. Stojanovic and I together with the witness attempt to use
18 Google Maps to locate the -- no.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do that.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Oh, you'll do it. Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll do it. You can do it. What I expect
22 you or the Defence to do is to make a colour printout of the exact
23 location on Google Maps or Google Earth - perhaps even better - where you
24 see buildings, where you see -- and then ask the witness to mark that
25 after he returns to the courtroom. We'd rather not -- the witness is
1 expected not to communicate with the parties meanwhile.
2 Now I don't know who has the colour printer nearest by. It's ...
3 perhaps Prosecution. If we could have it zoomed in at various levels so
4 that we could make a series of two or three, and then ...
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, in order to avoid further
8 confusion, is it correct that 245 and 246 were assigned to the video.
9 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours, yes, that is true.
10 Then document marked by the witness, document P54 -- yeah, receives
11 number D247, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
13 We take a break and resume at --
14 Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I apologise. I apologise, Judge. If we could
16 have the witness put on the record the exact intersection that he is
17 referring to as his accommodation, so that I can probably locate it on
18 Google Maps or locate the area.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. What I'd like is that you focus on what is --
20 in the Prosecution's position, is this cross-roads. That is also clear
21 from the map we looked at earlier, which was marked by the witness, where
22 the name of the street appears and the impact was located at number 1 in
23 the many reports. That location is easily, with the help of this -- if I
24 could refer you to hard copy page 31 of the -- of the hard copy in P3
25 gives you sufficient clues to find it on Google Maps, I think. And what
1 I'd like to have at various levels of zooming in, the area around what is
2 indicated on this map as G10, which is on the -- a cross-roads at the end
3 of Aleksa Santic Street. If that would help you and we could then
4 compare later. To the extent possible if it could be uploaded already
5 into e-court as a series of Google Earth maps -- or that -- if that's
6 possible, fine. If not, we'll look at it at the --
7 We -- then could the witness first be escorted out of the
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 10 minutes to 2.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.30 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.
13 [The accused not present]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber establishes that Mr. Mladic is not in
15 the courtroom. We were informed that Mr. Mladic, in order not to miss a
16 visit which was scheduled for early the afternoon, has waived his right
17 to be present.
18 Mr. Lukic, that's what you can confirm?
19 MR. LUKIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Last time when you gave a form to us in which he
21 waived his right to be present, we invited you to file that. That has
22 never been done, as far as I understand.
23 MR. LUKIC: We corrected this time, and it is filed just a few
24 moments ago. So maybe it is not in the system yet.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, could the Chamber have a look at
1 the document, even if it's a hard copy, where Mr. Mladic ...
2 We'll continue in the absence of Mr. Mladic.
3 Could we have -- first of all, could we have the witness escorted
4 into the courtroom. And, at the same time, could we have page 36 of P3,
5 which is the Hrasnica map, on our screens.
6 I'm looking with full expectation to the Prosecution.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: By some feat of technological genius, which was
8 not mine, we have two images, one closer up and one further out. On
9 colour paper we have not been able to upload them or anything like that,
10 but --
11 JUDGE ORIE: If we could have a look at them then perhaps I would
12 like to distribute to the parties a series of four which gives even a
13 better context.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I gave a few more Google Earth prints to
18 the -- the parties in order to -- to allow them to orient themselves.
19 The first one is with -- on top the airport, and to the bottom it is
20 Hrasnica. You see there is a kind of a cross-roads with a sharp angle
21 which we also find on the picture which is on our screen at this moment.
22 Do we all agree that this is a Hrasnica and we verified the
23 Prosecution's copy, which depicts the same, although in colour now.
24 Parties all agree that it is adequate -- adequately reflecting the
25 relevant area.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence too.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then what -- yes.
4 Now, what I suggest is the following: That we first try to agree
5 on where approximately the impact is. And, for that purpose, could the
6 first coloured map produced by the Prosecution be put on the ELMO.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, the only two copies that I was able
8 to produce are in Your Honours' hands.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give them -- in order to be put on the ELMO.
10 This one first.
11 And, Witness, could I invite you, first of all, to carefully look
12 at this moment at the map you have before you, and which was shown to you
13 earlier in which you marked. And could I especially ask your attention
14 for the Aleksa Santica Street, which runs south-east to north-west on
15 this map, just --
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you still have the picture of page 36? Can you
18 see the -- which is not a Google Earth yet but is still the map.
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see there a street called Aleksa Santica,
21 which runs from south-east up to where G10 is indicated.
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to carefully try to keep this
24 picture in your memory when we move to what is now on the ELMO.
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: There's nothing on the ELMO. Is the ELMO not
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: There we are. There we are.
5 Witness, do you now recognise, more or less, what we have on our
6 screen? And could I -- is there ...
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom in like that.
9 Witness, do you still have on your mind the previous picture? We
10 can always switch back to -- what I see is the cross-roads under the
11 sharp angle a little bit further up.
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, I'm just trying to orientate.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then there is a street going - and the orientation
15 of this map is north to the top -- goes in approximately southwesterly
17 A. Mm-hm.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Where there is a cross-roads, four roads crossing,
19 but the crossing is of irregular shape.
20 Do you see that? It's not ...
21 A. Then down here ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is we can't follow you in your --
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let me -- I'll try to guide you again.
25 At the top part, we have a road which arrives from almost
1 northerly direction and ends in a kind of a huge roundabout. You see
3 A. I see that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now you turn down -- you go down from that
5 roundabout in southerly direction a little south-east -- south-west. I
6 apologise for. You see that?
7 A. Mm-hm.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, from that roundabout south to southwesterly
9 direction, and then you arrive at what looks like cross-roads but is not
10 the regular cross-roads but is a funny-shaped kind of a place where the
11 four streets coming together.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now I'm addressing the parties: Is it that
16 cross-road which is indicated on the map as G10? Is that the cross-road
17 where the impact is located? That is just to the east of that --
18 immediately east to that cross-roads.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I believe it is a little bit to
20 that one side but, yes, that is the cross-road that I believe is
21 [overlapping speakers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] that's the cross-road.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, you agree as well.
24 Now, can we --
25 Witness, my next question is: If that is the cross-roads where
1 the impact is, can you orient yourself?
2 A. Yes, I believe so.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You believe so.
4 A. That was a bit difficult, but ... I can see that -- the place
5 where you have the G10. I believe I have the -- the right position.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 A. But from there, because --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, are you able to tell us, taken from that
9 position, where your accommodation was?
10 A. Accommodation --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Just to -- to -- perhaps to assist you, you see at
12 the -- up, left part of this picture, you see bigger buildings which
13 seems to be residential flats. I don't know whether they are, but that's
14 what at the look like, just for your orientation.
15 What we see from the cross-roads in more or less northerly
16 direction there are some larger buildings which, if we look at the map we
17 saw a minute ago, is an area where a street is called Skolska which
18 sounds very much like school road, but I'm not a B/C/S-speaking person.
19 Now, could we move up again a bit slightly the -- or at least
20 it -- move down so that we have a bigger area. Yes. Perhaps a little
21 bit further up again. Yes.
22 Now, have you had an opportunity to -- not to be zoomed in.
23 Looking at all this Witness, are you now able to orient yourself
24 in such a way that you could more or less tell us where your
25 accommodation was?
1 A. Not immediately. I'm not able. Because there were some --
2 JUDGE ORIE: This is, of course, how it looks today.
3 A. Yeah, yeah. There was some ditches and also a little bit road on
4 both sites of the ditches.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But could you tell us in what direction it was. Is
6 it from this cross-road, is it purely south, is it south-west?
7 A. South -- south of the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Of the cross-roads?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That means the road leading to the bottom --
11 A. Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- of this picture.
13 A. Yeah.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The bottom of this picture, a little bit to the
15 left, which bends before it reaches the bottom of the picture.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties agree that that is -- from G10
18 that it is southeasterly direction or I should say south to south-east
19 close to south slightly east.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, that I would agree to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I would say approximately -- at approximately 200
22 degrees on the compass; 180 being purely south and 270 being west.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Judge, I can agree that it is south and then it
24 curves slight, to the -- to the left. It goes slightly to left --
25 JUDGE ORIE: If you would be on that road if would be on the
1 left. If you look at the picture, it is to the right. Then we have a
2 different ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, is this clear to you as well?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. While
7 preparing for this, we tried to find the location so we do have an idea
8 of where that could be.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which would mean that if you would travel from
10 your accommodation to the cross-roads where we have identified G10 to be,
11 that you would travel in northerly just west of northerly direction.
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Do all parties agree on that?
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: To be frank, Your Honour, I'm getting a little
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll do the following: Could the -- could
17 the -- could we first look at the second one. Here we see the same
18 cross-roads. Do you see that, Witness?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you by hand, mark, first of all, and put
21 a circle around the cross-roads. And you need an ordinary pen for that,
22 or can you do it on the screen. I don't know whether it's possible. I
23 don't think so because we're not in e-court. We should -- should be done
24 on paper with a marker, a clear -- yes. Could it be put on the -- it --
25 it is on the ELMO. Could an ordinary pen be given to the witness. If
1 there's a marker that would even be clearer. Yes.
2 Now, Witness, I would now like to invite you to make a marking
3 not on the screen but on the paper. Could you first put a circle around
4 the cross-roads you think G10 was -- was being depicted.
5 A. That would be here.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Could we put again.
7 Now, could you tell us in which direction from this, by
8 indicating it by an arrow, in which direction your accommodation was.
9 A. It is down. That has to be down that road and down in this area.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay --
11 A. [Overlapping speakers] houses here I'm not sure.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 A. There are two houses if it is this one. Or that one. I'm not
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you put around the two houses a circle
16 and add the letter A for accommodation.
17 A. [Marks]
18 JUDGE ORIE: My final question: There's no doubt in your mind
19 that it was along this road that your accommodation was. That is,
20 southerly direction.
21 A. Not 100 per cent, no. Because it is new buildings, new roads
22 here. That wasn't there at the time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but to the best of your recollection --
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- which means that your accommodation was south
1 from the point of impact.
2 I suggest that this will be uploaded into e-court but be given to
3 Madam Registrar first and that we assign a -- preferably perhaps a D
4 number, Mr. Stojanovic, to this document.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Hard copy document marked by the witness receives
6 number D248, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D248. Any objection?
8 D248 is admitted into evidence and should be uploaded into
10 Now a last question to you, Witness: You said -- you indicated
11 that it was due to the fact that the windows were shaking where you were,
12 which you explained as the consequence of speed of a projectile flying
13 over your head, that this made you conclude that the windows broken you
14 saw, that that must have been the trajectory of the projectile. Have I
15 understood you correctly?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also agree with me that if the projectile
18 flew over your head on the assumption that you have well marked the
19 direction where your accommodation was, that it had not come from
20 northwesterly direction, but, rather from southeasterly direction.
21 Because this map was oriented north up --
22 A. Yeah.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- as is the other map which still may be on your
24 screen at this moment.
25 A. Yeah. No name on that road. Because on the sketch I was wrong
1 when I then said go upwards.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that map was -- that map was oriented in a
3 different way. As a matter of fact, what you indicated as being upwards
4 was south -- south-east.
5 A. Yeah. That is not -- not correct. It was opposite direction.
6 Downwards on -- on the sketch. Has to be so. That was the sketch that
7 was confusing me a bit, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that you saw the broken windows on a
9 road arriving from your accommodation to where G10 is to the road to the
11 A. On the road to the left of G10.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 A. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Which goes on this map -- and we are looking at
15 page 36 of P3, which goes in the direction to where we have the
16 Proleterska and Marta and Ula.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the direction that you --
19 A. That is correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think we have tried to clarify as good
21 as we could the whole testimony about directions.
22 Unless the parties have any further questions in this respect?
23 No further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any additional
25 questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Just one, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Further re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
5 Q. Sir, when you described how you then walked and drove the -- the
6 route where you -- upon -- the route where you observed the broken
7 windows, and you said that you followed it right up the confrontation
8 line. The confrontation line where?
9 A. Against Ilidza.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber noticed that at least on the maps
12 there are confrontation lines in both directions. South-west --
13 north-west and south-east.
14 Then if there are no further questions, I'd like to thank you
15 very much for coming --
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're relieved by having ended this exercise.
18 Mr. Overgard. Mr. Overgard, I'd like to thank you for coming to
19 The Hague and for having answered all the questions and I wish you a safe
20 return home again.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. Hopefully we have it
22 clarified now. [Microphone not activated].
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any matter to be raised by the parties
1 urgently? If not, we'll adjourn and we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
2 27th of February, 2013, in this same courtroom, I.
3 We stand adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
6 February, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.