Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9549

 1                           Wednesday, 10 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             First of all, we are here now in a trial session.  Yesterday we

12     adjourned sine die, but I think from my last words yesterday, it was

13     clear already that it might today that we would resume the trial

14     proceedings today.  Otherwise, we would have heard a deposition.

15             Mr. McCloskey, I think we yesterday also briefly addressed that

16     if Mr. Mladic would be back in court again, that you would draw your

17     request for a deposition hearing.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that it is hereby withdrawn then.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It is hereby withdrawn.  Thank you.

22             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that you would like to

23     address the Chamber briefly in private session.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 9550

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Page 9551

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             Could we briefly go in -- could we have the curtains down to go

25     into closed session for the witness to enter the courtroom under the

Page 9552

 1     prevailing protective measures.

 2             Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, I can indicate to you what kind of

 3     decisions are there to be read so that you -- yes.

 4                           [Closed session]

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19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Witness RM346, before you give evidence -- first of all, good

23     morning.

24             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

25     solemn declaration.  The text will now be handed out to you by the usher,

Page 9553

 1     and may I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness.  Please be seated.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           WITNESS:  RM346

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start, I would like to inform you about a

 9     very practical matter.  Usually we take breaks of some 20 minutes after a

10     little bit over one hour.  It might be that we need shorter breaks in

11     between.  Now, that may be breaks of only two or three minutes for very

12     practical reasons.  For you to leave the courtroom, curtains have to be

13     down.  Then you are escorted out of the courtroom.  Getting back in the

14     courtroom.  That all takes quite some time.  Therefore, for these very

15     short breaks of only a few minutes, we suggest that you just stay in the

16     courtroom.  We'll stay in the courtroom.  Everyone will stay in the

17     courtroom, apart from the accused who will have to leave the courtroom

18     then for a few minutes.  If you would -- if that would be agreeable to

19     you, we would proceed in that way.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.

21             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then, of course, we would take a bit of a longer

24     break after more than one hour.

25             Thank you for your co-operative attitude.

Page 9554

 1             You'll first be examined by Ms. Hasan.  Ms. Hasan is counsel for

 2     the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right, Witness.

 3             Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7             MS. HASAN:  To begin, could we have 65 ter 28782 displayed for

 8     the witness and us in the courtroom and not broadcast for the public.

 9        Q.   Witness, take a look at the sheet before you and could you please

10     confirm for us, without reading anything out loud, whether your name and

11     your birth date is correctly recorded.

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I'd offer then 65 ter 2872 [sic] into

14     evidence under seal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28782 receives number P1117,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted under seal.  There is a little

19     problem with the reading out of the number.  I think Ms Hasan --

20             THE REGISTRAR:  28782, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  28782 was the document which is admitted as P1117,

22     under seal.

23             MS. HASAN:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MS. HASAN:

Page 9555

 1        Q.   Witness, you've testified in this Tribunal already on three

 2     previous occasions.  And in this case, too, could you just make sure that

 3     you're vigilant when I ask you or anyone asks you any questions not to

 4     reveal information that may reveal your identity, and if you feel

 5     required to do so, in answering the question, let us know and we will

 6     move into private session so that can you do so.

 7             Witness, can you tell us now, do you recall testifying in the

 8     Krstic case on the 14th of November, 2000, and in the Karadzic case on

 9     the 2nd of February in 2012?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Have you recently had the opportunity to review your prior

12     testimony in those cases?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Are there any corrections to your prior testimony that you wish

15     to make today?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   So if I asked the very same questions you were asked, would you

18     provide, in substance, the same answers?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now that you've taken the solemn declaration here before us, do

21     you affirm that the testimony you gave in the Krstic and Karadzic cases

22     was true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I would then offer the testimony that

25     was attached to our 8 March 2013 92 ter motion for this witness as

Page 9556

 1     exhibits in this case.  That would be 65 ter 28783 for the Krstic

 2     testimony, and 65 ter 28784 for the excerpts from the Karadzic testimony.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Madam Registrar, the numbers would be?  First 28783.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1118, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             Let me see, do we need to have it under seal?

10             MS. HASAN:  No, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Not.  No need to have it under seal.  Therefore,

12     admitted as a public document, public exhibit.

13             28784, Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1119, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P1119 is admitted into evidence.

16             MS. HASAN:  For the benefit of the public, Mr. President, I'll

17     read a brief summary of the witness's prior evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

19             MS. HASAN:  On 11 July 1995, the witness' family left to

20     Potocari.  Afraid of being killed, he went to Jaglici.  Approximately

21     10.000 to 15.000 people had gathered there.  They decided to make their

22     way to Tuzla.  The witness left Jaglici on the afternoon of the

23     12th of July but was captured by Bosnian Serb soldiers near Nova Kasaba

24     on the morning of the 13th of July.

25             The witness was then held captive in an elementary school in

Page 9557

 1     Kasaba.  In the afternoon, the Serb soldiers took him to a football field

 2     just outside Nova Kasaba.  At this field he saw approximately 1.500 to

 3     2.000 men surrounded by armed Serb soldiers.  After a while,

 4     General Mladic arrived and delivered a speech to the prisoners.  He also

 5     ordered that a list of their names be taken.  One of the prisoners was

 6     beaten and shot to death by a Serb soldier.

 7             Later that same afternoon, buses arrived and took the prisoners.

 8     En route, near Sandici, the witness saw a group of men surrounded by Serb

 9     soldiers.  Further on, near Kravica, the witness saw a hangar with four

10     or five dead bodies at the entrance and he heard shooting coming from

11     behind the hangar.  The bus he was on stopped for the night in Bratunac,

12     near a school.  He heard shooting throughout the night.  Several people

13     were taken off the bus he was on and never came back.

14             On the afternoon of 14 July, the prisoners were told that they

15     would be exchanged.  The witness and the other prisoners on his bus,

16     along with four or five other buses, drove north in the direction of

17     Zvornik, to a school in Pilica.  The prisoners were ordered into a gym.

18     There were other prisoners sitting and standing on the stairs leading up

19     to the first floor of the school.  Later that night, the witness

20     volunteered to fetch water from a nearby water point.  And while doing

21     so, he heard a bus approach the school, followed by the sound of shots

22     and people crying for help.

23             The next day, on the 15th of July, Serb soldiers took personal

24     belongings from the prisoners.  And that night, men were taken out of the

25     gym and did not return.  On the morning of the 16th of July, the

Page 9558

 1     prisoners were told that the young men would be exchanged.  The witness's

 2     hands were tied behind his back and he and other prisoners were put on

 3     the buses.  The buses drove toward a meadow where the witness saw many

 4     dead bodies.  He watched as the men from the first bus were taken out in

 5     groups of ten, escorted by three to four soldiers, who were taken to a

 6     meadow where they were subsequently shot and killed.  The time came when

 7     he was ordered off his bus and he was taken to where the other bodies lay

 8     in the meadow.  A group of ten soldiers shot at them and the witness,

 9     threw himself to the ground.  He was shot in the back but the bullet

10     passed under his left armpit and he survived.

11             For the next approximately four hours, groups of prisoners

12     continued to arrive to the meadow and they were killed.  In the evening,

13     a vehicle arrived and unloaded bodies at that site as well.  The witness

14     spent the night there and then escaped to a bridge where he hid the

15     following day.  During his journey, he encountered two other Muslim men

16     whom he continued his escape with.  Exhausted, the witness and the other

17     Muslim man he was with turned themselves in at a later date.  And,

18     finally, on the 26th of December, in 1995, the witness was released.

19             That concludes my summary.  And if I may now proceed with my

20     questions.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You may.

22             MS. HASAN:

23        Q.   Witness, I'm just going to ask you a few questions that are going

24     to just require us to go very briefly into private session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 9559

 1                           [Private session]

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Page 9560

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Perhaps you repeat the question for the witness.

Page 9561

 1             MS. HASAN:

 2        Q.   At approximately 2.00, after you had been imprisoned at these

 3     barracks at the elementary school in Nova Kasaba, you and the other men

 4     who had been captured with you were ordered to march towards what you

 5     have called a stadium, and you've also called it a football pitch which

 6     was just outside of Nova Kasaba.  Could you describe in a little bit more

 7     detail what this field was?

 8        A.   It was a sort of football pitch that had two goals.  There were a

 9     couple of trees there.  I think there were two sheds.  There were benches

10     for people to sit.

11        Q.   And when you refer to the stadium and this football pitch, are

12     you referring to one and the same thing?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now when you arrived at this football pitch just outside

15     Nova Kasaba, you say there were between approximately 1.500 to 2.000

16     prisoners there and these men were seated in rows.  When you arrived at

17     the field, were you -- were you ordered to sit with these men?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was this also in rows or in some other formation?

20        A.   In rows.

21        Q.   Now, shortly after you arrived, you've testified that

22     General Mladic arrived at the football field.

23             Do you recall the vehicle General Mladic arrived in?

24        A.   Yes.  I think it was some sort of jeep or APC.  I'm not sure,

25     really.

Page 9562

 1        Q.   You've previously testified that General Mladic delivered a

 2     speech to the prisoners as you sat there.  How far away from

 3     General Mladic were you sitting when he gave his speech?

 4        A.   Between 15 and 20 metres.

 5        Q.   And you have previously testified that you had recognised him

 6     because you had seen him before and -- sorry, on television.  And that

 7     you had been told by soldiers present at the field that he was expected.

 8             Do you remember if General Mladic also introduced himself at the

 9     beginning of his speech or at any time during his speech?

10        A.   I think that he did.

11        Q.   Now, you also testified about a prisoner amongst you who at some

12     point stood up, was beaten by the soldiers there, and was shot and killed

13     by one of the soldiers.

14             Did you personally witness this incident?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And when you saw this prisoner get killed, was General Mladic

17     still there?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you tell us approximately how long after this incident

20     General Mladic left the football field?

21        A.   I'm not sure.

22        Q.   Okay.  And ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  A pause, Mr. --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll have a little pause, as was announced

Page 9563

 1     before.

 2                           [The accused withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  As I indicated before, we just show some patience

 4     for a couple of minutes, and then we'll proceed.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I do not know whether you still have to

 8     consult with your client about the decisions to be read or whether there

 9     are some which are innocent enough?

10             MR. LUKIC:  I think we can read these admissions of documents.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admission of documents.  And that would be --

12             MR. LUKIC:  P802 and P805.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then perhaps I briefly inform the witness.

14             We'll use our time in court when waiting to read one or two

15     decisions, so you don't have to be attentive to it.  It's just to use our

16     time as efficiently as possible.

17             Yes, that can be delivered in open session, this decision.  It is

18     the -- the Chamber will now deliver its decision on the Prosecution's

19     oral bar table motion to admit into evidence four documents with Exhibit

20     numbers P802 up to and including P805.

21             On the 24th of January, 2013, during the testimony of

22     Witness Smith, the Prosecution intended to tender four documents through

23     the witness.  Following an indication by the Defence that it would object

24     to the documents being admitted through the witness, the Prosecution, at

25     the suggestion of the Chamber, tendered the said documents orally from

Page 9564

 1     the bar table.  The Defence did not make further submissions in relation

 2     to this request.  The relevant transcript pages are 7363, and P9507 to

 3     9508.  No, I'm -- it's not P; it's just transcript pages:  9507 to 9508.

 4             The Chamber will therefore now decide on the admission of P802

 5     through P805.

 6             The Chamber analysed the four documents in light of Rule 89(C)

 7     and (D) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  All four documents are

 8     contemporaneous VRS documents that, taken together, create a full picture

 9     on how an order is processed within the VRS which may assist the Chamber

10     in a better understanding of the VRS military chain of command.

11             Moreover, Witness Smith testified about this subject matter.  The

12     Chamber considers all four documents to be relevant and reliable and, in

13     light of the foregoing, admits P802 through P805 into evidence.

14             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

15             Mr. Lukic, the admission of the report of Witness

16     Patrick van der Weijden, would that be a decision that -- well, I think

17     the witness -- Mr. Mladic returned to the courtroom.

18                           [The accused entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Lukic [sic], as you are aware

20     of.

21             Ms. Hasan, if you are ready to continue.

22             Witness, may I ask you, was -- we just heard the accused

23     speaking.  Was -- did you hear what he said?  And was he addressing you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He most probably were -- was.

25     Because he said that I had lied about it all.  He said it was all lies.

Page 9565

 1     I don't know if he meant my statement, by I suppose so.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may make any submissions but the

 3     Chamber wants to remove Mr. Mladic from the courtroom now.  If you have

 4     any different thing heard, then -- Mr. Mladic -- we stop recording.

 5     Curtains down.  Curtains down.

 6             Mr. Mladic is removed from the courtroom.  Mr. Mladic is removed

 7     from the courtroom.

 8                           [The accused withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in -- no.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We have the curtains up again.  Mr. Mladic is not

12     present in the courtroom anymore.

13             Mr. Lukic, is there any challenge to the gist of what Mr. Mladic

14     said?  I'm not asking you to confirm that he said anything, but I'm just

15     asking whether there's any challenge to the gist of what he said.  If so,

16     of course, we'll have to further investigate the matter, but ...

17             MR. LUKIC:  As I heard it, and I did hear this time, he was

18     addressing Mr. Stojanovic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But was he talking aloud, was he saying that the

20     witness had lied?  Whomever he addressed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  What I heard --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he use the word "lies" or "lied" or ...

23             MR. LUKIC:  What I heard is that everything is learned by heart.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  He was commenting on the testimony of the witness?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 9566

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Then ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, no need to say that you will explain to

 5     your client that this type of comment which is inappropriate and, as he

 6     may have been aware of, leads to his removal from the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Groome.

 8             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just should it ever be necessary to

 9     review the tape that the Chamber has ordered be made, I would note that

10     the comment was made at approximately 9 minutes past 10.00.  The

11     transcript doesn't record the time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just see.  The transcript doesn't record the

13     time -- was it -- I was just listening.  I didn't see whether anything

14     appeared on the transcript [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour, it wasn't recorded on the

16     transcript, but should the Chamber decide that it needs to investigate,

17     it will have to look at that tape.  So I'm just marking the time to

18     assist in that process.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We thank you for that assistance.

20             We carry on with the testimony of the witness.

21             Witness, this was an incident which was not foreseen.  I hope it

22     doesn't disturb you too much.  If you are ready, Ms. Hasan would continue

23     her examination.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I only would like to know who

25     he addressed when he said, "Fuck your mothers."

Page 9567

 1             If that's possible.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that what he said as well, apart from saying that

 3     this were lies?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  When he was going out.  When

 5     he was leaving the courtroom.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean when he was removed from the courtroom,

 7     yes.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I can imagine your question.  Let's now try to focus

10     again on the questions that are put to you by Ms. Hasan, and please

11     answer them and try to focus.

12             Ms. Hasan.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   Thank you, Witness, and thank you for your patience.

15             Now we've been talking about this incident of a prisoner being

16     shot at the Nova Kasaba football field.  Can you tell us, in your words,

17     what is -- as far as you remember it, what happened?

18        A.   Well, while Mladic was there, holding a speech, one of the youths

19     stood up.  I don't know why he stood up.  At any rate, the Serbian

20     soldiers removed him from the rows where we were seated.  He was toward

21     the end of the row.  He started beating him with rifle-butts and kicking

22     him, and then one of them shot him from a rifle.  His body was thrown

23     into a nearby ditch.  Mladic was present but didn't react at all.  We

24     were told, they told us, that if anyone of us should behave this way, we

25     would be killed.

Page 9568

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, after being held at the Nova Kasaba football field,

 2     where were you taken immediately after that?

 3        A.   They put us on buses.  The buses left for Konjevic Polje in the

 4     direction of Kravica.  They brought us to Bratunac.

 5        Q.   After being taken in Bratunac and, as you've previously

 6     testified, you were held on a bus there near a school, you were

 7     subsequently taken to a school in Pilica; do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   How many nights were you held at the school in Pilica?

10        A.   Two nights.

11        Q.   And we have your evidence about your detention there as part of

12     your Krstic testimony.  I'd like to move to when you were then

13     subsequently taken to the killing fields, as you describe them.  And

14     after the executions took place there, which you survived, you escaped to

15     a bridge under which you hid for a day.  And sometime after that, you

16     encountered an older man who you continued your escape with.

17             If we could just go into private session for a moment.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

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Page 9569

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             MS. HASAN:

10        Q.   Apart from the time when your name was taken at Nova Kasaba, were

11     you interviewed at any time during your capture?

12        A.   Can you repeat your question?

13        Q.   Apart -- apart from the time when you were at the Nova Kasaba

14     football field, and you had testified that you had provided your name to

15     the Serb soldiers there, were you at any other time during your

16     captivity, since -- until the time you were released, interviewed?

17        A.   We were only registered in Kasaba.  The -- we had to provide our

18     dates of birth, and they were put on a list.  This was at the place where

19     Mladic held the speech.

20        Q.   When you arrived at Batkovic camp, were you registered there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you recall who registered you?

23        A.   The Red Cross.

24        Q.   Had you been registered by the Red Cross before your arrival at

25     Batkovic camp?

Page 9570

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   If you recall, can you provide us the date that you arrived at

 3     the Batkovic camp?

 4        A.   I think it was the 26th.

 5        Q.   Of what month?

 6        A.   July.

 7        Q.   And do you know where the Batkovic camp was located?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this in dispute, or would you think the witness

 9     to take a different view on the location of Batkovic camp?

10             MS. HASAN:  I'm not sure if the Defence disputes this.  If they

11     don't, then there may be --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Location of the Batkovic camp is not in dispute.

13     You should have inquired.  You have announced that would you need

14     30 minutes.  So, therefore, use your time as efficient as possible.

15     Because you're at 26.

16             MS. HASAN:

17        Q.   How many prisoners, Witness, were held at the Batkovic camp at

18     the time you arrived, as far as you know?

19        A.   I'm not sure about the exact number.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last thing he said.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last words you spoke.  You said

22     you were not sure about the exact number but ...

23             Did you add anything?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hangar there was full.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hasan.

Page 9571

 1             MS. HASAN:

 2        Q.   Now, Witness, do you remember taking an investigator of the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal called Jean-Rene Ruez in 1999

 4     to some of the locations you had been taken to during your captivity?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us which places you remember going to?

 7        A.   Yes.  We went to the school where we were detained, to the place

 8     where I went to fetch water, and the place where we were shot.

 9             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I have no more questions but I would

10     like to move to offer in the associated exhibits with his Krstic and

11     Karadzic testimony.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Those being the photographs?  No.  Yes,

13     associated exhibits.  Photographs?

14             MS. HASAN:  Yes, there are a number of photographs.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have a list before me of eight photographs,

16     or at least eight.

17             First of all, Mr. Stojanovic, are there any objections against

18     the eight photographs as listed?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections against admission.  Then let's go

21     through them rather quickly.

22             Madam Registrar, 65 ter 04835, photograph, panoramic photo of

23     Kravica warehouse.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1120, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1120 is admitted into evidence.

Page 9572

 1             Next one, 65 ter 05030, photograph, unannotated version of

 2     helicopter overview of the area, annotated to show execution site,

 3     water-pipe, et cetera.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1121, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             05049, photograph, helicopter view, Branjevo farm.  And then the

 7     description continues with a few more details.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1122, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P1122 is admitted.

10             65 ter 05248, photo exhibit book of Jean-Rene Ruez, page 213.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1123, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             28757, 65 ter, annotated photo of Kravica warehouse.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1124, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             65 ter 28758, annotated aerial photo of Pilica school marked by

17     the witness.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1125, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

20             65 ter 28759, annotated photo of Pilica school.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1126, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23              Yes, the description is identical to the previous one but

24     apparently there are two aerial photos.

25             Then the last one, 65 ter 28760, annotated aerial photo of

Page 9573

 1     Branjevo farm.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1127, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Ms. Hasan, any further matter?

 5             MS. HASAN:  Yes, Mr. President.  In relation to P1123, which is

 6     65 ter 5248, we will endeavour to just upload the single page.  And there

 7     was a correction exhibit list sent out.  The correct page is page 207.

 8     It can be --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 207.

10             MS. HASAN:  Correct.  And that will be 65 ter 5248A.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because what I just read is also from the

12     10th of April, but apparently there is a more recent one then.  It will

13     be page 207 separately uploaded from the photo exhibit book.

14             Any further matter?

15             MS. HASAN:  No.  That's everything.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And the 65 ter number is on the record.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start the cross-examination,

19     Mr. Stojanovic, there are two matters the Chamber would like to briefly

20     raise.

21             First we'd like to ask one or two additional questions to you,

22     Witness.

23             You may have heard, you said, Mr. Mladic said aloud that you were

24     telling lies.  Now, Mr. Lukic said, told us that he heard Mr. Mladic say

25     that it was just a - let me see - it was a learned story you told -- you

Page 9574

 1     had told us.

 2             Now, having heard that, is there any chance that you -- that did

 3     he not say that you were lying, or did you clearly hear use him the words

 4     "lie," or "liar," or "you are lying," or was it more the version as

 5     Mr. Lukic told us.  I just want to check with you how accurate you heard,

 6     how certain you are about what you heard.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could I make a suggestion.  The witness

 8     speaks fluent English.  And if it may assist the Chamber to avoid any

 9     kind of translation misinterpretation, perhaps the Chamber would be

10     willing to hear him answer questions in English.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, if you'd prefer to answer the

12     question in English, but you're listening to the B/C/S channel, I take

13     it, at this moment.  Or are you listening to the English channel?  I do

14     not know.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Bosnian.  I'm sure what I

16     heard, and I have no doubts about it.  He said that that was made up,

17     that those were lies.  He used foul language.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Foul language before he was removed from the

19     courtroom, or you would say after we ordered him to be removed from the

20     courtroom?  I'm talking about the foul language.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He swore while he was being

22     taken out of the courtroom.

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] So even having heard what

24     Mr. Lukic said, you have no doubt that he was talking about made-up

25     stories.  Did he use the word "lie," or "liar," or did he just limit

Page 9575

 1     himself to made-up stories?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that I made everything up

 3     and that I was lying.  And I heard it with my own ears.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 5             Then for -- Mr. Lukic, as usual, Mr. Mladic is removed from the

 6     courtroom for the duration of the testimony of the witness, the testimony

 7     of the witness during whose testimony he misbehaved.

 8             So, therefore, it might be that we could conclude the testimony

 9     of this witness later this morning and start with the next witness.  So,

10     therefore, the removal of the courtroom, for the Court at least, doesn't

11     mean that he necessarily should be transported back to the United Nations

12     Detention Unit.  I take it that Madam Registrar has overheard my

13     conversation with you as well, Mr. Lukic.

14             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready -- oh, Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready

15     to cross-examine the witness, you're invited to start.

16             Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

17     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, are we going to

20     take a break now?  What is the procedure now?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The procedure is that the short sessions are mainly

22     to accommodate Mr. Mladic.  Since Mr. Mladic is not in court, we have the

23     usual sessions of one hour and a half.

24             Please proceed.

25             Which also would mean that if you are very efficient, that having

Page 9576

 1     25 minutes left during this session, that perhaps in the next session,

 2     also in view of the assessment you gave on how much time you would need,

 3     that we would conclude in the next session, the cross-examination.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for these

 5     instructions.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   I apologise sincerely for this incident and I regret your having

10     been forced to experience it.  I have a few questions for you.

11             Up until the 11th of July, 1995, you were a member of the

12     28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the village where you

13     resided; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what specific tasks you had as a member of the

16     that unit, per establishment?  Did you have any rank?

17        A.   No.  I was just posted on the line.  We were holding the line,

18     and that was all.

19        Q.   What weapons did you have?

20        A.   Nothing.

21        Q.   At the time when you were discharging military duties, were you

22     issued with automatic weapons?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   So how were you discharging your military duties of securing the

25     lines?

Page 9577

 1        A.   While the area was not protected, there were a couple of rifles

 2     available, but after it became a safe haven, the rifles were seized.  And

 3     after that, there were neither any lines, nor soldiers.

 4        Q.   After the zone was established, the protected zone, were you

 5     active as a member of the brigade?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   In which activities were you involved after the protected area

 8     was established?

 9        A.   I wasn't involved in anything.  I was simply a refugee.

10        Q.   Do you know that from the area where you stayed, offensive

11     activities were launched against the VRS territories in 1994 and 1995?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the

13     witness's answer because of the overlapping.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  The interpreters draw our attention to

15     the fact that they did not hear the witness's answer and then you started

16     already your next question.

17             Is that the last portion of the answer which we see on the

18     transcript?  After where the witness said that he was simply a refugee,

19     or is it already the answer to the next question?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The answer to the next question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Could you please repeat your answer to the question, whether you

23     know that from the area where you were staying, offensive activities were

24     launched against the VRS territories in 1994 and 1995.  Whether you are

25     aware of that.

Page 9578

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.  And take a break

 3     after you've asked your question.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   On the 11th of July, an order arrived for the able-bodied men to

 6     proceed to the Jaglici village; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Are you -- can you tell the Chamber, to the best of your

 9     knowledge, who issued the order to send the able-bodied men to Jaglici

10     and women and children to Potocari?

11        A.   I heard that from other people.  But who originally issued this

12     order, I really don't know.

13        Q.   In the village where you were staying, was there a military

14     command that was capable of receiving and forwarding such an order?

15        A.   Zulfo was a former commander but I didn't hear anything

16     personally from him.  I heard it from other people.  He was a commander

17     there.

18        Q.   When you say "commander," are you talking about Zulfo Tursunovic?

19     Am I right?

20        A.   Yes, you are.

21        Q.   Can you please repeat your answer, because I don't think it's

22     been recorded, and please wait a bit and after I have finished my

23     question.  Thank you.

24             How long did it take you, and how many of you, left from the area

25     where you had been to the village of Jaglici?

Page 9579

 1        A.   I don't know exactly.  I was in the group made up of some 10 or

 2     15 people, and it took us about 45 minutes, up to an hour.  I'm not sure.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I invite you to look at your text

 4     screen, if it as -- and wait until it stops moving after a question has

 5     been put to you and only then answer it.  Because there's an overlap in

 6     speakers, and our transcribers need time and our interpreters need time

 7     to give us the right information.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Upon arrival in Jaglici, did you see armed military formations

11     and soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   When I arrived in Jaglici, there were between 10.000 and

13     15.000 people.  I'm not sure whether some of them were armed or not.

14        Q.   Can you be more specific when you say you're not sure?  You saw

15     them or you didn't see them?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   To the best of your recollection, while passing in -- in the

18     column, which task you were given?  What were you told about your

19     destination?

20        A.   We were told that we were going to Tuzla.

21        Q.   Did you know that that was the VRS-controlled territory?

22        A.   Which territory are you referring to?

23        Q.   The territory through which the column was passing towards Tuzla,

24     did that involve the passage beyond the Srebrenica enclave and the

25     passage through the territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska?

Page 9580

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Were you aware that this area was mined?

 3        A.   No.  But I was able to notice that there were mines planted

 4     there.

 5        Q.   Who personally directed these activities?  And who led you

 6     towards Tuzla?

 7        A.   Nobody led me.  I headed on my way along with all the others.

 8        Q.   To the best of your recollection, on the route before you were

 9     captured, how many people from the column perished?

10        A.   At one location, I saw four or five dead bodies, people who were

11     killed.  Then the next location, near Kamenica, there was an ambush

12     there.  There was a tree that had been felled and there were about

13     300 dead there.

14        Q.   Were you, at any point, exposed to shooting?

15        A.   Yes.  The whole time.

16        Q.   Did somebody get killed while passing through the minefields?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you see if anyone committed suicide?

19        A.   I'm not sure.  It is possible, but I'm not sure.

20        Q.   To the best of your recollection, please tell the Chamber more

21     specifically where the Kamenica location is, where you saw about 300 dead

22     bodies.

23        A.   I am not quite sure if you walk through the forest from Jaglici

24     towards Kamenica, I don't know the exact location because I had never

25     been there before.

Page 9581

 1        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your recollection, on the

 2     13th of July, you said that you were captured on the morning of that day.

 3     Can you tell the Court an approximate time when you were taken prisoner?

 4        A.   It may have been at around 7.00.  I am not sure.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You don't know if you were captured by the military

 6     or the police.

 7        A.   No, I'm not sure.  I think it was the military.

 8        Q.   So, from 7.00, according to your estimate, until 1400 hours,

 9     that's the time you spent in the school; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you tell the Court how many of you were in this school in

12     total and how many of you walked or were taken on foot to the football

13     pitch in Kasaba?

14        A.   I think that there were ten people.  And then they captured

15     another man in the vicinity of the school.  That makes a total of 11, but

16     I'm not quite sure.  And then all of us were then returned to the

17     football pitch.

18        Q.   Let us now deal with an issue that we deem to be significant.

19             According to your estimate, when you were brought to the football

20     pitch - and that was between 1400 hours, or, let's say, at around

21     1400 hours, if I'm not mistaken - how many people were there?

22        A.   Between 1500 and 2.000.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

24     would kindly that the document that I'm going to use be under seal.  So

25     can we please have document 1D870 in e-court.  That's the witness's

Page 9582

 1     statement given on the 20th of July, 1996, to the State Commission for

 2     the Collection of Facts Relating to War Crimes.  And I would draw your

 3     attention to page number 2 in the B/C/S and in English as well.

 4        Q.   The last paragraph, where you say:

 5             "At the stadium, there was a large number of prisoners, both

 6     civilians and soldiers.  I think that we numbered several hundred people

 7     and the number kept growing as they were bringing people from all

 8     directions whom they had captured in the surrounding area."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   This is my question for you.  When, a moment ago, you said that,

12     in your estimate, at the time of your arrival, there were between 1.500

13     and 2.000 people, was that a number that -- of people that you saw there

14     when you got there, or was it the number of people at the time when you

15     were being transported?

16        A.   I think that referred to the time when we were still there.

17     There were other people still arriving.

18        Q.   From the point when you got there and until the point when

19     General Mladic appeared there, were there other prisoners brought over?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   Let's have a look at a portion of the transcript of your evidence

22     in the Karadzic case.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court

24     page 35 of the transcript from the Karadzic case, which I believe was

25     today assigned the number P --

Page 9583

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  P1119, Your Honours.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 35, line 5.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- could you assist us in giving the page

 4     number in the previous case, the Karadzic case.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And for the transcript, it's P1119.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 35 in e-court, line 5.

 7     And page 24146.  That's the transcript page from the Karadzic case.

 8     24146.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there are only five pages in

10     e-court.

11             MS. HASAN:  If I can just assist, it's because, I believe, that's

12     only what we uploaded, the excerpts we proffered into evidence.  So this

13     portion of the Karadzic transcripts would not be included but perhaps it

14     can be read out.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Your Honours, then,

16     with your leave, we have uploaded it.  It's 1D867.  1D867.  Can we have

17     page 35 in e-court, then.  It corresponds to page 24146.

18        Q.   Can I direct your attention to line 5.

19             Sir, in the Karadzic case, you also spoke about this issue, and

20     you said that, at the time, that the number of people who were present at

21     the football field grew to about 2- or 3.000 people.  You see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Today you told us that, to the best of your knowledge, there were

24     between 1.500 and 2.000 people.  So in your view what would be the most

25     accurate figure?

Page 9584

 1        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I did say when I was testifying in

 2     the Karadzic case that it was between 2- or 3.000.  There may have been

 3     even been 4.000 people.  I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- yes.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'll ask to you look at a document, which is 65 ter 28756.  It's

 9     a collection of photographs which we plan to use with the next witness.

10     And I'd like us to look at page 43 of the document.  That's to say, the

11     photograph on that page.

12             Sir --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the

14     transcript, let me say that this is one of the photographs from the

15     collection we received from the Prosecution.  It's dated the

16     13th of July, 1995, 1400 hours, precisely at the time that the witness

17     referred to as having been brought over to the football pitch and that

18     would be the time when the number of people that he mentioned were there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, it's not very common that someone who

20     is not examining the witness intervenes, but if there's any special

21     reason, please tell us.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and I do it reluctantly, Your Honour, and --

23     but because we are out of sequence, I wanted to point out this is an

24     aerial image provided pursuant to Rule 70 by the United States.  It is

25     open and been used many times, as we know.  But I just wanted to clarify

Page 9585

 1     that this squiggly mark next to 1400 hours is told to us by the

 2     United States to mean about 1400 hours.  We were going to be getting into

 3     that with Mr. Ruez a bit, but I just wanted to clear that up for the

 4     record.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the 1400 hours is preceded by a

 6     small sign, which, as I understand, is often used to indicate that it is

 7     an approximate indication and not a precise one.

 8             I take it that the clarification is helpful.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I do

10     accept that that is the case.  And I did say that it corresponded to what

11     the witness had said.  He did say that he was brought over to this place

12     at about 1400 hours.

13        Q.   Witness, do you recognise this area?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Will you agree with me that this is an aerial image of the

16     football pitch at Nova Kasaba?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Are you able to see the disposition of people who were either

21     seated or standing in the field in these two groups?

22        A.   Well, I think that this group over here was seated; whereas this

23     other was standing.  I'm not sure.  It is an aerial image, after all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it would be not be on the record

25     what this group over here or the other group would be.  We have a group

Page 9586

 1     which seems to be a rather thin line going from down -- from -- from

 2     bottom to the top in more vertical direction, and we have a bigger more

 3     rectangular, almost a square, group of prisoners.

 4             Which one you remember to have been seated, and which one was

 5     standing, in your view?  If -- if you remember.  If not, please tell us.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that I was seated, and I

 7     think that I was in this larger group.  I'm not sure about the other

 8     group.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The larger group meaning the one more in the

10     middle of the football field.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  We -- if this would be

14     a suitable moment for a break.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at 11.30.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  For the witness to re-enter the courtroom, we have

22     to move into closed session for a second.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9587

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, once the curtains are up again, you may resume

 8     your cross-examination.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Sir, if you recall, we stopped when we were discussing the

11     photograph that you have now in front of you.

12             Can I ask you again so that we can confirm, to the best of your

13     recollection, roughly an hour after your arrival at the football pitch in

14     Kasaba, Ratko Mladic arrived.  Am I right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   At the point when General Mladic arrived, were you seated or were

17     you standing?

18        A.   We were seated.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to us

20     look at the next paragraph now.  It's 65 ter 28756, the same document,

21     the same collection but a different photograph, at page 44.  It is a

22     magnified image.

23        Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple of things.  Can you help us with

24     this:  You were seated in such a way that you were facing the lower or

25     the bottom part of the photograph, or, rather, the direction facing the

Page 9588

 1     road leading to Konjevic Polje; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was facing this group, the other group that was there.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we have the

 5     usher's assistance now to hand the pen to the witness.

 6        Q.   And, Witness, to the best of your recollection, can you draw a

 7     circle indicating the area where you were seated, approximately, at the

 8     point of General Mladic's arrival.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we do so, let me try to

10     clarify one thing.

11             You said, asking about which direction the witness was facing,

12     whether he was facing in the direction of the road.  That means more to

13     the bottom of the photograph.

14             The witness said:  "I was facing the other group."

15             Which is -- may -- it at least creates some ambiguity.  Because

16     the other group is, from this larger group, not in the direction of the

17     road, but, rather, in a different direction.

18             So before you ask the witness to mark where he was, or after

19     that, could you ask him to mark with an arrow which direction he was

20     facing when being seated so that we know, for sure, in which direction it

21     was.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.

23     I think that it is only proper to do it this way.  I was wrong.

24        Q.   Could you please, Witness, when marking the area where you were,

25     draw an arrow that will indicate the way you were facing.

Page 9589

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now draw a circle to indicate the spot where

 3     you were when General Mladic arrived, to the best of your recollection.

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

 7     let me say that the witness drew an irregular circle in the central part

 8     of the photograph.

 9        Q.   Can you place number 1 next to it.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   That would indicate the spot where you were.

12             Now I'd like to ask you to draw a circle to indicate the spot

13     where General Mladic was when he addressed you.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Can you please write "RM" next to that circle.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  At the time when General Ratko Mladic arrived, do you

18     remember there being some UNPROFOR or UN vehicles there?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could you tell Their Honours how many such vehicles there were,

21     that you recall?

22        A.   There was one UN vehicle.  I think it was an APC, I'm not sure.

23     There were Serbian APCs.

24             I do want to say that this is where, roughly, the military APC

25     was, this is where the army was, but this image doesn't reflect that at

Page 9590

 1     all.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I will ask you, however, to place "OT" next to that

 3     circle, which would stand for "armoured carrier."

 4             And next to the line that you drew, can you just write the army,

 5     "V"?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And then, if you can recall, can you mark the spot on

 8     this image where the UN armoured carrier was?

 9        A.   It was roughly in this area.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you place "UN" next to it.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   On his arrival, General Ratko Mladic addressed you from the spot

15     that you've just marked.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And he told you that you would all be exchanged; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   He also told you that it wasn't possible at all for you to break

20     your way through to Tuzla because there were quite a few ambushes and

21     obstacles in the way; is that right?

22        A.   He said that nobody would be able to pass, not even a bird, that

23     nobody would be able to advance not even for 100 metres [as interpreted].

24     And as far as I know, there was no attempt at breaking through that area

25     anyway.

Page 9591

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm being told

 2     that in line 14 of the transcript what the witness said was misconstrued.

 3     It was said here that it was 100 metres, whereas the witness said -- or

 4     perhaps I could resolve this through a question.

 5        Q.   Witness, can you just tell Their Honours, to the best of your

 6     recollection, what did exactly General Mladic say to you apart from the

 7     fact that you would be exchanged?

 8        A.   Okay.  When General Mladic came, he addressed us.  He said that

 9     we would all be exchanged, that we would be having lunch in Bratunac,

10     that he would organise groups that would go out into the hills and woods

11     to collect the wounded.  All those who were killed would be buried.  He

12     ordered that a list of all of us who were there be drawn.  He designated

13     a group of some four to five soldiers to register everyone.

14        Q.   And when he said that he would send you all off to Bratunac for

15     lunch, were there any comments made?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   Do you remember if, at the time, there were wounded individuals

18     among you at the football pitch in Kasaba?

19        A.   Yes, there were wounded people.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before you put the last question,

21     you apparently had some concerns about the transcript and about the

22     100 metres.

23             Now if that concern exists, it has been -- not been resolved.

24     Perhaps I ask the following question.

25             Witness, you said something about that Mr. Mladic told you that

Page 9592

 1     you wouldn't make it very far, and, in that context, the transcript tells

 2     us that you mentioned 100 metres.

 3             Could you tell us what that -- whether that accurately reflects

 4     what you said?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  He said that there were

 6     100 lines between that place and Tuzla and that not even a bird can fly

 7     over.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is now clear.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Sir, do you remember if the Serbian soldiers provided first aid

12     to the wounded people?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you please explain to the Court what you saw and how they

15     provided this assistance.

16        A.   I saw them bandaging people who were wounded.  They were putting

17     bandages on them.  That's what I recall.

18        Q.   That was the time while General Mladic was still there.

19        A.   I think so.  I'm not sure, but I think so.

20        Q.   You were also offered a possibility to use some water.  Do you

21     remember that?

22        A.   I'm not sure.

23        Q.   You're also not sure whether the list drawn up on that occasion

24     containing the number of people on the pitch was finalised before the

25     departure of General Mladic.

Page 9593

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How long did those five people take to make up the list of the

 3     people in -- on the pitch in Kasaba?

 4        A.   I don't know, but I remember that as people were leaving the

 5     column their names were taken down.  If I remember correctly, there was a

 6     table.  Everyone had to pass by that table, give their name and date of

 7     birth, and then board the bus.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

 9     sentence.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So this registering --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  The witness is invited to repeat the

13     last part of his previous answer.

14             "Everyone had to pass by that table," you said, "give their name

15     and date of birth, and then board the bus."

16             And what did you say after that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, when the buses were

18     full, some people were left behind on the pitch, after me.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   So this list was made while people were boarding the buses.  Am I

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, I think you are.

23        Q.   At that location, General Mladic was no longer there.  Am I

24     right?

25        A.   No, I'm not sure.  I think he was.

Page 9594

 1        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how long did he stay there?

 2        A.   I am not sure.  Perhaps an hour.  I don't know exactly.

 3        Q.   But please, can you be of assistance.  You said that you arrived

 4     at around 1400 hours.  One hour later, according to your estimate, which

 5     is to say at around 1500 hours, General Mladic arrived.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So he stayed for an hour, that is to say, up until 1600 hours.  I

 8     put to you that in all the cases where you testified, you said that you

 9     headed for Bratunac by buses in the evening hours.  Where have these

10     minimum four hours -- have gone?

11        A.   Four hours?  Well, I don't know when we set off exactly.  I just

12     said approximately that it was dark when we reached Bratunac.  Now what

13     time exactly it was, I don't know.  I didn't have a watch with me.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that.  But, please, surely you set off

15     towards Bratunac at dusk or in the early evening hours, as was stated in

16     one of your testimonies.  Am I right?

17        A.   Yes.  We set off before it got dark.  Maybe an hour before.  I

18     don't know exactly.  Because once we arrived in Bratunac, it was already

19     in dark.

20        Q.   All right.  I'm asking you this because I would like to remind

21     you and ask you if you still stand by your statement that, to the best of

22     your estimate -- remained there for about an hour [as interpreted]?

23        A.   I don't know exactly.  Not one hour.  He wasn't there when I

24     arrived.  Maybe it was an hour later that he came.

25        Q.   But you stand by your statement that he stayed there about

Page 9595

 1     60 minutes or one hour.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, just to be clear on the record,

 4     the witness previously said to your question how long did he stay there,

 5     his answer was:

 6             "I'm not sure.  Perhaps an hour.  I don't know exactly."

 7             So the witness indicated that he was not sure.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That is

 9     why I repeated the question because I realised that when I said one hour,

10     the witness understood this to be 1300 hours in the afternoon and that he

11     arrived at around 1400 hours, and I think that that is the reason for

12     this slight confusion in the transcript, but I hope that we have

13     clarified this.

14             Thank you.

15        Q.   Sir, in the photograph that is in front of you, can you please

16     put an arrow indicating the place where the soldier - and I would kindly

17     ask the usher to assist the witness - the location where the soldier --

18     or the prisoner was taken from the group that you mentioned.  Can you put

19     an arrow of the direction.

20        A.   It's here, in this part.  This is where he was killed.

21        Q.   Can you tell us how far that was from the place where you were?

22        A.   I don't know exactly, but not too far, because I was able to see

23     everything that was going on.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, often, if you want a

25     marking of a spot or a place rather than a direction, you better not use

Page 9596

 1     an arrow, which the witness wisely then did not do.

 2             The place approximately where the soldier was -- was, was taken

 3     out, is marked by the witness with a small circle, just right and up from

 4     where he marked the presence of a UN vehicle.  And perhaps he could add

 5     something like, soldier, or P, for prisoner.

 6             That -- if you could mark the place with a P for prisoner.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there it is.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Can you please tell us, in your memory, can you tell us what kind

12     of weapon did the soldier use to shoot this prisoner?

13        A.   I am not sure.  I think it was a pistol.  I know that he was

14     beaten with a rifle-butt.  And then one of the soldiers put -- took out a

15     handgun and shot him dead.

16        Q.   Can you tell me if you had an impression that this prisoner

17     exhibited some uncontrolled behaviour?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Did he leave an impression of being psychologically distressed?

20        A.   I don't know.  All I know is that he stood up, said something,

21     and then he was singled out and beaten up.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

23     can we please enter the photograph with the markings into evidence

24     because I'm going to move onto other exhibits.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But before we do so, I'd like to add one

Page 9597

 1     question.

 2             Witness, looking at the arrow you marked on this photograph, and

 3     looking at the place where you said Ratko Mladic was, do I understand you

 4     well that you were not directly facing him but that you had to look to

 5     your left to see him?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the photograph

 9     marked by the witness would be?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Would be D269, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D269 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we remove it from the screen, Judge Fluegge

15     has a follow-up question as well.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, during the examination-in-chief you were

17     asked about the behaviour of General Mladic when this prisoner was

18     killed.  And you said:

19             "Mladic was present but didn't react at all.  We were told, they

20     told us, that if any one of us should behave this way, we would be

21     killed."

22             You said, "We were told, they told us," who are "they"?  Who told

23     you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb soldiers.  In fact, the same

25     soldiers that killed that man.

Page 9598

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for --

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

 5     can we look again at document 1D870.  That's the witness's statement

 6     given on the 20th of July, 1996.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be shown to the public.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have -- yes, it's

 9     under the seal because we already used it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Stojanovic, it is -- the statement is not

11     in evidence at this moment, is it?  So, therefore, if you once said it is

12     not to be shown to the public, that does not make it an exhibit under

13     seal.  So, therefore, you should repeat it whenever you use it.  And even

14     if it were an exhibit under seal, then it's always good to remind us that

15     it is.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we please look at page 2, last paragraph in the B/C/S; and I

18     think it's page 3, first paragraph, in the English.

19        Q.   Can we please look at it together.  A while ago, you said that

20     you were not under the impression that this man had some mental problems,

21     the prisoner.  In your statement given on the 20th of July, 1996, you

22     said something different, and you said on that occasion, which is a year

23     after the event:

24             "I personally saw one of the captured civilians, probably

25     psychologically distressed, stood up, straightened up, because we all had

Page 9599

 1     to sit down in the stadium, and then four Chetniks approached him, forced

 2     him to sit down by kicking him and hitting them with their fists, and

 3     then one of them shot him dead with a pistol."

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

 5             MS. HASAN:  I'm just looking at page 2 of the English which I

 6     think is probably where the reference is.  And --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is --

 8             MS. HASAN:  In the English version it says nothing about any

 9     psychological disturbance of any sort.  It just simply --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it says "probably due to shattered nerves."

11             MS. HASAN:  Yeah.  "The civilian stood up, probably due to

12     shattered nerves ..."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. HASAN:  That says nothing about his state of mind.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- if you give me one second.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             Well, Mr. Stojanovic, could you please be very clear.  Make a

19     clear distinction between having a mental problem, which I understand,

20     but perhaps you'd verify with the witness how he understood that, whether

21     it was someone with some -- with some psychological disorder of any kind

22     and, on the other hand, shattered nerves due to a situation, which might

23     shatter perhaps everyone's nerves.

24             Could you make a clear distinction between the two, rather than

25     to ask for an explanation of what you present, more or less, as a

Page 9600

 1     contradiction, which might not be fully fair to the witness.

 2             So would you please keep this in mind when further exploring this

 3     matter.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, since you speak the language of the statement put to

 6     you, it says here that you said and signed the following:

 7             "One of the prisoners, probably due to psychologically being

 8     distraught ..."

 9             Now I'm asking you do you stand by this; and, if you do, how do

10     you understand that?

11        A.   Well, I'm not sure what actually occurred.  He got up, but why he

12     got up, I really don't know.  And why they beat him UP and then

13     eventually killed him, I don't know.  It's irrelevant.  I don't know why

14     they killed him.  It's totally unclear to me.

15             I don't know what else to say.

16        Q.   On the basis of what did you make a conclusion that he was

17     probably mentally distraught?

18        A.   Well, my conclusion was based on the fact that we all were forced

19     to sit down, whereas he got up.  And that indicated to me that something

20     was wrong with him because everybody else had to remain sitting and

21     didn't dare get up.

22        Q.   Did he shout?

23        A.   I don't remember.  He was talking.  I don't know what about.

24        Q.   Was he threatening?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 9601

 1        Q.   Did he try to hit anyone of these people?

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3        Q.   You're not sure if General Mladic was able to see it all?

 4        A.   Well, he was there.  He should have been able to see what was

 5     happening.  I think you'd best ask him.  He was there.

 6        Q.   I'm asking you this because --

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

 8     I'd like to suggest that we look at document 1D868 in e-court.  Let me

 9     note that it's under seal.

10        Q.   It's the statement that you gave, Witness, on the 11th of March,

11     1996, to AID, the Agency for Investigation and Documentation, the Tuzla

12     office.

13             I'd like us to look at the first paragraph, where you talk about

14     this event and say that you arrived at the field or the pitch at around

15     1400 hours.  At the field in Djugum, the Chetniks first kicked and

16     punched and rifle-butted a youth whom they killed.  "I did not know the

17     young man, but he was dark, tall, and about 30 years old".

18             You then say that you were addressed by Ratko Mladic, and then

19     you mention the words that you've already told us here.  Does this

20     refresh your recollection that in fact this incident happened before

21     Mladic's arrival at Kasaba?

22        A.   No.  It didn't happen before.  Mladic was already there.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, where do you get it from, from

24     this statement, that Mr. Mladic had not arrived yet?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  On the basis

Page 9602

 1     of the documents that I intend to adduce through the witnesses that we

 2     will call, but that's why I wanted to clear up the statement, first of

 3     all.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you're referring to this statement to make

 5     that assertion, and that -- this statement doesn't make that assertion.

 6     Then you can make that assertion without referring to this statement.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, I thought that I would

 8     clear up this issue with the witness through this document.  I thought

 9     this would jog his memory.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you use a document and ask a

11     witness whether that document refreshes his memory, which, of course, is

12     in relation to his previous answer, then that document should contain a

13     basis for considering what the witness testified and what is in his

14     statement to be different or contradicting.  That is the clear suggestion

15     underlying such a question whether it refreshes his memory.  You can do

16     that only if the document contains elements which would provide a proper

17     basis for re-visiting his previous answers.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   I wanted to put another question to you.

21             Did you have an opportunity to see the location where the

22     soldiers took the dead body of this prisoner?

23        A.   No.  But I heard them say that it should be taken to Jadar and

24     thrown away.

25        Q.   And while you were there, was the body, indeed, taken away?

Page 9603

 1        A.   Yes, it was.

 2        Q.   To the best of your recollection, what was the direction to which

 3     the column left when General Mladic was present?

 4        A.   Which column do you mean?

 5        Q.   The column of vehicles that General Mladic arrived with, as you

 6     described it.

 7        A.   It left for Konjevic Polje.

 8        Q.   And while you were there, in the late afternoon or early evening,

 9     you did not observe this motorcade returning from Konjevic Polje?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   In your view, what would have been the time when the motorcade

12     left with General Mladic?

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   In your view, how many buses arrived and from which direction?

15     And I'm referring to the buses that later took you to Bratunac.

16        A.   I don't know the direction they came from, but there were between

17     five and six buses.

18        Q.   Were all the prisoners from the field in Kasaba bussed to

19     Bratunac?

20        A.   I'm not sure.  There were still people left behind.  I don't

21     think so.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  This question was asked.  This question was already

23     answered that some may have left behind.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9604

 1        Q.   On your arrival in Bratunac, did you, at any point, receive

 2     information that would indicate that there were people ferried to

 3     Bratunac after you had been taken there?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   In your view, what would have been the time when you were taken

 6     on the following day from Bratunac to Zvornik?

 7        A.   Sometime in the afternoon.

 8        Q.   As you were taken by bus to the school where you were ultimately

 9     put, did you at any time cross into Serbia?

10        A.   I don't remember.

11        Q.   Do you recall if, at any point, you stopped in Zvornik?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber if there were any soldiers on the buses,

14     securing the journey?

15        A.   Yes, there were.

16        Q.   Were they soldiers or policemen?

17        A.   I don't know exactly.

18        Q.   How many buses were there in that motorcade?

19        A.   I think four or five.

20        Q.   Were all those who were in the school in Bratunac and those who

21     were in the buses in front of the school, were they all taken along on

22     that journey?

23        A.   I don't understand.  I'm not sure about your question.  You're

24     asking me about the school in Bratunac.  I don't know anything about

25     that.

Page 9605

 1        Q.   Did you, at any point in time, have an idea as to where you were

 2     within the town of Bratunac that night when you were brought over until

 3     the afternoon hours of the following day?

 4        A.   Well, I think it was a school.  We were in the street, parked

 5     next to the school.

 6        Q.   That morning, did you see any people being taken out of that

 7     school and put on buses?

 8        A.   No.  The night that we spent in Bratunac, there were several

 9     people taken off the buses, and they never returned.  I don't know how

10     many exactly.  Shots were heard.

11        Q.   What I'm interested in is whether, on that day before your

12     departure for Zvornik, you were able to see other buses around the school

13     and people being boarded onto these buses.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Since it was day-time, are you able to remember where the bus you

16     were on was parked in reference to the entrance to the school?

17        A.   We were out in the street.  I don't know exactly.  I was able to

18     observe that it was a school, but I had never been in Bratunac before.

19        Q.   Were you told the destination you were taken to -- you were being

20     taken to?

21        A.   We were told that we were going to be exchanged.

22        Q.   Do you remember if these four or five buses, on one of which you

23     were, they were escorted by a UN vehicle at all?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Were there any other vehicles escorting the convoy, or was it

Page 9606

 1     just soldiers on the buses who escorted the whole column?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We have not received any answer at this moment.

 3             Could you -- if you answered the question, could you do it again,

 4     whether there were other vehicles escorting the convoy, or whether it was

 5     just soldiers on the buses?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  There weren't any.  Or at

 7     least I didn't observe them.  There were just soldiers who were on the

 8     buses.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Tell us how many soldiers there were in each of the buses?  Or,

11     specifically, in your bus.

12        A.   I don't know exactly.  I think there were two of them, and they

13     were at the front.  I'm not sure.

14        Q.   Do you know where it was that you were brought over and where you

15     were put up?

16        A.   It was the school at Pilica.  We were placed in the school gym.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   At which point did you realise that it was the school at Pilica?

20        A.   It was something that I came to learn later.  I didn't know at

21     the time.

22        Q.   When you were taken to the school gym, you were the first ones to

23     be placed there; right?

24        A.   Yes.  I'm not completely sure, but ... there were others, people

25     standing or sitting on the steps, those who were being taken upstairs.

Page 9607

 1        Q.   When you were led into the sports gym, however, were you the

 2     first ones to be put there?

 3        A.   I'm not sure.  I only know that the school gym was overcrowded

 4     and that there were people who died in there.  For the lack of air,

 5     simply.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just try to understand, Witness.

 7             When you were taken to the school gym, whether you were the first

 8     ones to be placed there, that was the question, and you said you're not

 9     completely sure.  But when you say that -- that you know that the school

10     gym was overcrowded, was it already crowded - I'm not saying

11     overcrowded - crowded when you arrived?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Was it an empty school --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it an empty school when you arrived?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think it was entirely

17     empty.  When I arrived, I don't remember how many people there were.

18     However, it became full very quickly and eventually became overcrowded.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, you earlier asked about the number of soldiers -

21     and that's during cross-examination - were on the bus from Bratunac.  I

22     really -- since it's clearly in the witness's testimony that there were

23     two, and since you did not give it any follow-up, I do not understand why

24     you repeat questions in cross-examination on matters which are clear from

25     the 92 ter material already and then not challenge or -- well, do

Page 9608

 1     something with it.  It's just a repetition.  You get the same answers,

 2     which I really totally am unable to understand what purpose that serves.

 3             You may proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we can

 5     clarify these issues and it will become more transparent.  I'm asking

 6     about the number of people in the school in Pilica.

 7             And with your leave, Your Honours, I would kindly ask, in view of

 8     the answer given by the witness to you right now, we look at a document

 9     under seal, which is the witness given by -- the statement given by this

10     witness to the Prosecution marked 1D869, dated 23rd of May, 1996.

11             And can we please look at page 3 in the B/C/S, the last

12     paragraph; and that would be page 3 in the English as well.  And if I may

13     ask the next page in the English because this paragraph continues there,

14     and we need page 4.

15        Q.   Sir, you say here:

16             "There were no other people in the gym at that stage but there

17     were others on the stairs and the rest of the buildings."

18             Today you gave a different description of the event, and you said

19     that there were some people when you arrived there.

20             Now, I'm asking you the following:  This part of your statement

21     that you gave to the Prosecution a year after the event, does it refresh

22     your memory with regard to this specific issue of whether somebody was in

23     the gym or not?

24        A.   As I said a minute ago in answer to your question, I said that I

25     wasn't sure that they -- there may have or may have not been people

Page 9609

 1     there, because I'm not sure.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Then can I kindly ask you, if you're no longer sure about this,

 5     to take a look at your evidence in the Krstic case.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I need 1D866.  That's

 7     page 17 in e-court, which corresponds to transcript page 3031.

 8        Q.   Let's look at lines 2 onwards, where you say that when you

 9     arrived in the gym, it was overcrowded.

10             What would actually be a true version of this, sir?

11        A.   Well, I said that I wasn't quite sure because I was fearful.  And

12     whether it was full or not ...

13        Q.   So if -- am I right if I were to say that not even today your

14     memory about these issues is not completely reliable?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't think that we should ask the witness

16     whether he's reliable or not.  Could we --

17             Witness, one point, from what we saw as statements and what we

18     heard in your testimony today, irrespective of whether there was no one,

19     or only a few when you arrived, or whether there were already more, that

20     at the end of the story, the gym was overcrowded, is that something you

21     are certain about?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It was not full, but later

23     on, after my arrival, it became overcrowded and nobody can convince me

24     differently.  I know what I experienced, and I know what I saw, and I

25     stand by it.

Page 9610

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Were you able, at any point, to notice that following your

 4     arrival to the school in Pilica, there were any other transportation of

 5     prisoners?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you know if there were any prisoners elsewhere on the school

 8     premises?

 9        A.   I think so, because I saw some people in the staircase.

10        Q.   Can you tell the Court how many people you saw on the stairwell

11     in the school.

12        A.   Well, I cannot give you an exact number.

13        Q.   To the best of your recollection, how big was the gym where you

14     were put up?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  It's just an ordinary gym for physical

16     education.  I don't know its size.

17        Q.   If I were to tell you that it's 18 metres by 10 metres, would

18     that correspond to your memory, as something being similar to a

19     basketball court?

20        A.   I'm not sure.

21        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  The next thing that I would like to ask

22     you, can you recall --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, again, and I'm trying to keep

24     matters as efficient as possible, is 18 by 10 metres the approximate size

25     of an ordinary gym, in your understanding?

Page 9611

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  I know

 2     exactly the size of gyms.  And I know that the gyms were built according

 3     to similar and identical standards in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So the simple answer is:  Yes, that's the ordinary

 5     size.

 6             Now is there anything you would like to further explore with

 7     giving the size of this specific gym to this witness, is there any

 8     problem?  Because the witness says it was an ordinary gym.  You give him

 9     measurements of what appears to be an ordinary gym and then you leave it

10     as it is.  Is there any relevance in knowing whether it was 17 by 11 or

11     19 by 9?  The Chamber wonders what you want to bring to our attention in

12     relation to those measurements, that exact size, where the size you are

13     referring to is exactly what the witness has told us or ordinary gym.

14             So if there's anything you want to bring to our attention, please

15     do so.  But you have not done until now.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  It

17     might be significant, and it will be, in relation to the number of people

18     who were in the school, and, with your leave, it bears reference to what

19     I was asking the witness right now, and I would like to put this to the

20     witness.

21             Can we then have the witness's statement given on the

22     11th of March, 1996.  It's 1D868, and I'd like to remind all the parties

23     that it's under seal.  As I say, it's under seal.

24             Can we look at paragraph 2 in both versions.  I think that we

25     need to scroll down the English version or, rather, to turn the page

Page 9612

 1     over.

 2             Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, the same question was put to you on the

 4     11th of March, 1996, and you gave a more explicit answer by saying that

 5     the school was big and that the gym was about 40 metres long, and "I

 6     don't know how wide it was."

 7             Today you said that you cannot say anything about the size of

 8     that facility.

 9             Now, in view of these discrepancies, can you estimate how many

10     people were in the gym at the time when you described it as being

11     overcrowded?

12        A.   Well, that means that people were suffocating or the room was

13     stifled.  It seems that due to that I can say that it was overcrowded.

14     Now, as for the exact number, I don't know.

15        Q.   All the prisoners who had arrived in those four or five buses

16     from Bratunac, were they all put up in the gym?

17        A.   I'm not sure.  I know that the gym was overcrowded.  I know that

18     soldiers stood in the doorway, shooting up into the ceiling, but I'm not

19     sure if all the people were put up in the gym.

20        Q.   We can agree, then, that you cannot give us any realistic

21     estimate about the number of people who were put up in the gym.

22        A.   Well, I was imprisoned there.  My role was not to count the

23     people in the gym.

24        Q.   I understand that, but you said how many people were on the pitch

25     in Kasaba and that is the reason why I'm asking you about this smaller

Page 9613

 1     space.

 2        A.   But I don't know how many people were taken away from Kasaba, how

 3     many of them remained in Bratunac, et cetera.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Can you please tell the Court, to the

 5     best of your recollection, when you were taken purportedly to be

 6     exchanged but, in fact, you were taken to the Branjevo farm, what time of

 7     day was it?

 8        A.   I'm not sure.  I think it was in the afternoon, but I cannot be

 9     more precise than that because I was walking through the woods for

10     15 days without food.  I occasionally lost consciousness.  Therefore, I

11     cannot be precise.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In your evidence in the Karadzic case, your estimate

13     was that it was possible that the time when you were taken to the

14     Branjevo farm was about 1600 hours and that that is when the shooting

15     started.  Would you give the same answer today?

16        A.   1600 hours?  I think it was earlier than that.  I'm not sure.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could we have that on the screen

18     to be able to compare?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  With your

20     leave, can we please have again Defence Exhibit 1D867, page 47 in

21     e-court, which corresponds to page 24158 in the transcript, which is the

22     evidence of this witness given in the Karadzic case.  And let us look at

23     line 11 onwards.

24        Q.   In response to the questions asked at the time, you say that

25     according to what you recall, the shooting started at around 4.00 in the

Page 9614

 1     afternoon.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you still stand by that?

 4        A.   Yes.  It may have been - I'm not quite sure - it may have been a

 5     bit earlier but I'm not sure.  That would be roughly the time, as I said.

 6     Maybe the same time, maybe somewhat earlier, I'm not sure.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, on the transcript of today's

 8     proceedings, at page 64, line 24, or starting at line 22, you say:

 9             "In your evidence in the Karadzic case, your estimate that it was

10     possible that the time when you were taken to the Branjevo farm was about

11     1600 hours."

12             Line 11 on the transcript that you are referring to us, on the

13     exhibit you are referring us to, refers to the starting of something.  I

14     don't know what was starting.  Not being taken to Branjevo.  This seems

15     to be two different incidents.

16             You say -- it says:

17             "According to you, it started at 4.00 in the afternoon, and how

18     long did it last?"

19             Whatever it is that started.  That's not being taken to Branjevo

20     farm.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, I may clarify

22     this by putting a question to the witness.

23        Q.   So, Witness --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan is sitting down again, so I take it that

25     you want to wait until the -- Mr. Stojanovic has clarified issues.  Or do

Page 9615

 1     you want to make any intervention at this moment?

 2             MS. HASAN:  I was just going to point out that in fact the 4.00

 3     time of the starting of the executions from the Karadzic transcript was

 4     suggested by Mr. Karadzic to the witness.  I'm looking for the reference

 5     to where the witness himself gave that evidence.  I haven't found it yet.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Mr. Stojanovic will certainly keep this in

 7     mind when he puts the next questions to the witness.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Witness, I will try to put a more specific question to you.

10             To the best of your recollection, when did the execution at

11     Branjevo start?

12        A.   On the 16th, in the morning, I don't know at what time, Serbian

13     soldiers arrived and told us that were to be exchanged.  Instead, they

14     tied us up and put on the buses and drove us to that meadow where people

15     were already being killed.  There were countless dead bodies there.  I

16     don't know the exact number, but quite a few.

17        Q.   In your view, would it be fair to say that you arrived there and

18     that the people who were on the bus with you were being taken out of the

19     buses at roughly 4.00 p.m., 1600 hours?

20        A.   I don't know what the time was.

21        Q.   Was that in the morning or in the afternoon of that day?

22        A.   I think that it was in the morning.

23        Q.   So you'll agree with me that it's different from what you had to

24     say in the Karadzic case.  You can read it.  You have it in front of you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, exact quote of what the witness said in the

Page 9616

 1     Karadzic case which you would want to put to him.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'm showing

 3     him answers -- or questions and answers from lines 11 to 15.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  11 until 15.  What the witness tell us is that it

 5     lasted until night-fall and that his hands were tied in his back.  That's

 6     the only thing the witness testifies there.

 7             If you want to put to the witness that Mr. Karadzic said that,

 8     according to the witness, it started at 4.00, there's no answer to that

 9     question.  And that's what happens if you put a composite question to the

10     witness.  So if you find it anywhere where Mr. Karadzic may have found

11     it, please put that to the witness and not an unanswered suggestion by

12     Mr. Karadzic and suggest that there is a contradiction.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   I'll finish this issue with a question related to time.

16             In your view, how long was it after you boarded the buses in

17     front of the school in Pilica that you arrived at the Branjevo farm?

18        A.   Five or ten minutes; not more.

19        Q.   Is it true that people were taken out in groups of ten?

20     Approximately ten.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How far away were they taken from the spot where the bus was

23     parked?

24        A.   I don't know how many metres, but it wasn't far.

25        Q.   You didn't hear any sort of order to fire.

Page 9617

 1        A.   No, I was only able to see people being taken out and killed.

 2        Q.   You don't know who these people who were shooting were.

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   You saw them, that they were already there by the time you

 5     arrived on the bus.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   In your estimate, how long would it take for them to take out a

 8     group of about ten before they came back to fetch another group?

 9        A.   I don't know, but it didn't take much.

10        Q.   Can you give us an idea?

11        A.   I'm not sure at all.  They would take a group to the field, kill

12     them, and then come back to fetch another group.  I don't know how long

13     it would take them.

14        Q.   Would it have taken them some ten minutes?

15        A.   I don't know.  I'm not sure.

16        Q.   After you fell to the ground, at some point, one of the soldiers

17     approached you and shot you from the back; right?

18        A.   Yes.  They first fired bursts of fire.  I dropped to the ground

19     and a man landed on my back.  He was dead already.  I could sense his

20     blood flowing.  And then they said that they should be shooting everyone

21     in their head to make sure that they were dead.  And then I heard them

22     say that they shouldn't be shooting at people's heads because there was

23     brains splattering everywhere.  So they shot me in the back and I felt

24     the hit pass under my left armpit, and then there were people still

25     shouting, some of them were wounded, asking for help.

Page 9618

 1        Q.   At that point your hands were still tied at the back?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   At that point, you were lying prone on your stomach, in fact;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The bullet went -- passed between your body and your left arm

 9     without wounding you; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

12     I'd like us to look at a document in e-court.  It's 1D871.  It's a

13     photograph that we made when preparing for this witness's testimony.

14        Q.   Sir, would this be the position that, as you recall, you were

15     lying in with your arms tied at the back?

16        A.   Well, I'm not sure if my hands were tied in precisely this way.

17     I can't remember.  There were dead bodies all around me.

18             Yes, I was lying face down on my stomach.

19        Q.   Would this body position correspond to how you were lying at the

20     time?

21        A.   Yes, perhaps it would.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D873 now.

23        Q.   Sir, you said that the bullet passed between your arm and your

24     body through the jacket.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9619

 1        Q.   Can you indicate on this photograph how this was possible at all

 2     without the bullet injuring you?

 3        A.   Well, that's how happened.  Perhaps it was with the help of dear

 4     Lord.  I don't know how it happened.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, this is not the witness's body and

 6     this is not the position of his arms, at least that has not been

 7     established.  So to ask him how this is possible, I would say take the

 8     next break, use your arms in such a way and see whether can you make a

 9     small hole between your body and the arms when you are tied on the back.

10     I promise you that, of course, dependant on your flexibility, and we are

11     a bit older, both of us, that you might well manage to do it in a way

12     different from what you see in this photograph.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.  I

15     tried to make it as transparent as possible.  That's why I decided to

16     proceed with the help of this photograph.  Thank you.  We can put the

17     photograph away now.

18        Q.   There's one other thing I'd like to ask you, Witness.

19             After you were captured, the soldiers who captured you brought

20     you over to a cafe in Pilica where people gave you food, drink and

21     cigarettes; right?

22        A.   It wasn't Pilica.  It was beyond Karakaj.  I'm not sure what the

23     place was.  They were not soldiers.  There was a mini-bus and I think

24     that they were military policemen.  They dropped by for a drink, and the

25     cafe owner came over to the bus.  He brought over cigarettes and a drink,

Page 9620

 1     and he asked if we were hungry.  We said that we were.  He gave us food.

 2     He was a good man.  I'm sorry that I don't know his name.  I've forgotten

 3     it.

 4        Q.   If I were to tell you that his name is Ljubo, would that refresh

 5     your memory?

 6        A.   I don't think so.  I'm not sure.  The only thing that would jog

 7     my memory would -- me going there and finding that cafe.  I only remember

 8     that the man said that he had been working in Germany for ten years.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Upon your arrival in Batkovic, you were registered by

10     the Red Cross.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You applied voluntarily for work in order to get better food; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   There were many prisoners in Batkovic who applied for work as

16     volunteers with locals or with somebody else, and they would do farm

17     work.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Nobody physically mistreated you personally in Batkovic; is that

20     right?

21        A.   That's right.  Not me personally.  Though, when we were working

22     on the line in Brcko, there was this one man - I don't know if he was a

23     policeman - he beat up a few people.  I think his name was Mitar, I'm not

24     sure.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  I also

Page 9621

 1     established that during the first session you used approximately half an

 2     hour, and we have now a second session which took approximately one hour

 3     and a half, which makes it all together two hours.  That was the

 4     assessment.

 5             How much time would you still need?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A minute, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  A minute.  Then use that minute, please.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you give any statements about these events at Batkovic?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Did anyone from those who were managing the collection centre at

12     Batkovic ask you to give accurate or inaccurate information about the

13     things that you experienced?

14        A.   I don't remember.  I only remember that as I arrived there, there

15     was the Red Cross, they registered us, and they asked some -- for some

16     information.  That was all that happened at Batkovic.

17        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no more questions for you.

18        A.   Thank you, too.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Ms. Hasan, how much time would you need for re-examination?

21             MS. HASAN:  Just a few minutes, three or four minutes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Three or four minutes.  Then I would suggest that we

23     use -- that we will continue for those three or four minutes so that we

24     can excuse the witness after that, unless there would be any further

25     questions to him.

Page 9622

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.  May we have Exhibit D269 displayed.

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. Hasan:

 4        Q.   Witness, this is the photograph that you just marked now during

 5     the cross-examination by Defence counsel.  And I just want to ask you:

 6     When the prisoner was shot -- okay.

 7             You marked here initially where Mladic was standing when he gave

 8     his speech.  Could you clarify for us, when the prisoner was shot, was

 9     Mladic standing at that place as well or was he at another location?

10        A.   I think that he was in that same spot.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MS. HASAN:  We can remove that photograph.

13        Q.   Now, the shot that you heard that killed the prisoner at the

14     field, was that -- was that a normal gun-shot or -- or was it something

15     else?  Sorry, was it normal sounding to you?

16        A.   Yes.  A pistol fired.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, could you clarify for me what's the

18     difference between a normal shot and a -- another kind of shot?

19     That's -- are you suggesting that it might have been --

20             MS. HASAN:  Silenced.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Silenced.  Okay.  Well, now it's clear to me.  Yes.

22             So it did not sound as if there was a silencer on it.

23             And, Ms. Hasan, that this is, in your view, relevant for the

24     distance between Mr. Mladic and whether he could have heard that.  Yes,

25     it's clear to me.

Page 9623

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. HASAN:

 3        Q.   And in relation to that prisoner as well, at approximately

 4     page 54 of today's transcript, you were asked -- sorry.  You gave

 5     evidence that you heard that he should be taken to Jadar.  Could you be a

 6     little bit more -- more precise, did you -- was that -- was it said that

 7     that was a reference to Jadar river, or Zeleni Jadar, or is all you heard

 8     was "Jadar"?

 9        A.   I think that he meant the Jadar river, that the order was for the

10     body to be taken and thrown into the river, the Jadar.  I think that

11     there is a river by that name.

12             MS. HASAN:  I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench has no questions, Mr. Stojanovic, I

16     do understand that you have one or perhaps more questions.

17                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, let me ask you this:  At the time when

19     you were in the field, did you hear shots from the surrounding hills?

20        A.   Yes.  Shots could be heard.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, does this arise from cross -- from

22     re-examination?  Where only the pistol shot was referred to.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but the question was about

24     the nature of the shot and I think that this gave me an opportunity to

25     ask this question.

Page 9624

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is totally -- is that the only question you

 2     have?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Put the question to the witness and we'll hear his

 5     answer.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I asked and got the

 7     answer.  Page 75, line 2:

 8             "Yes.  Shots could be heard."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, since there are no further questions, Witness,

12     I would like to -- well, let me first say the following.

13             The Chamber was informed that you wanted to express -- give some

14     comment on the incident that took place in the courtroom today.  I can

15     understand that you'd like to say something about it and what you think

16     we should consider in this context as was sent as a message by the

17     Victims and Witness Section.  At the same time, the Chamber considers it

18     not necessary to hear what your thoughts are about what we should do with

19     it.  I hope you'll trust that the Chamber will consider the matter in the

20     appropriate way, and -- even without your further comments on it.

21             Then I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague

22     and to tell us about what you experienced at the time, which may not be

23     easy for you.  We'd like to thank you for coming and we wish you a safe

24     return home again.

25             Before you leave the courtroom, we'll have to move into closed

Page 9625

 1     session, so wait for a second.

 2             And, after the break, we'll return -- we will open in open

 3     session again.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19                           [The accused entered court]

20                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  As announced, we resume in open session.

22             Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I would

23     like to put the following on the record and to inform the parties about

24     it.

25             The Chamber has recently communicated with the parties about the

Page 9626

 1     proper use of the Srebrenica trial video.  In particular, to confirm with

 2     the Defence whether it still intended to make submissions with regard to

 3     the accuracy of the video's B/C/S or English transcripts, or the English

 4     subtitles that appear on the video.

 5             The Chamber has not received a response from the Defence in this

 6     regard.

 7             For the purposes of using court time as efficiently as possible,

 8     the Chamber would like to propose that -- to the parties, that for the

 9     portions of the Srebrenica trial video to be played in court for which

10     there are English subtitles, the Chamber would request that the

11     interpreters do -- remain silent and not interpret the audio, but instead

12     that the video would be played once with minimal interruption allowing

13     the Chamber to consider the English subtitles.  The Chamber's approach in

14     this regard, as it is with other exhibits, is that the parties should

15     carefully review the transcription, subtitles and translation attached to

16     the video and inform the Chamber if it is believed that there are any

17     discrepancies.

18             This saves us from playing videos twice.

19             This is the suggested approach, and the Chamber would appreciate

20     if the parties could agree -- if there are any problems with subtitles,

21     of course, we'd carefully look at it as we always try to do.

22             Then, Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to call your next witness?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I am, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

25     courtroom.

Page 9627

 1             And, just to be sure, viva voce, no protective measures.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez, I take it.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

 6     make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to do so.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 8     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Ruez.

11             Mr. Ruez, you'll first be examined by Mr. McCloskey.

12     Mr. McCloskey, as you may be aware of, is counsel for the Prosecution.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

15                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

16        Q.   Can you tell us your full name.

17        A.   My name is Ruez, R-u-e-z.

18        Q.   And your first name?

19        A.   Jean-Rene.

20        Q.   And what is your current position?

21        A.   Currently I am a chief superintendent in the French national

22     police.

23        Q.   And we all note you are speaking English.  Is that your choice?

24        A.   Yes, it is my choice, indeed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I add to that, if at any moment you would

Page 9628

 1     feel that you are able to express yourself better in your own language,

 2     don't hesitate to use the French language at such point in time.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   Did you once work for the Office of the Prosecutor here?

 6        A.   Yes.  I joined the OTP in the 7th of April, 1995, and I left the

 7     Tribunal 7th of April, 2001.

 8        Q.   And what was your position?

 9        A.   I arrived as an investigator and became an investigation team

10     leader in 1997.

11        Q.   And what was the case you principally worked on during all your

12     years here?

13        A.   Nearly during this entire period I worked only on the Srebrenica

14     case.

15        Q.   And were you the investigative team leader in charge of the

16     Srebrenica investigation?

17        A.   Yes, I was.

18        Q.   Okay.  We'll get into that a bit more later.  But is it true that

19     you have testified in the trials of Krstic, Blagojevic and Jokic,

20     Popovic, Tolimir, and Karadzic?

21        A.   Yes, and Ademovic, and Rule 61 hearing, indeed.

22        Q.   Can you tell us a little bit about your education and your work

23     experience prior to becoming the team leader here at the OTP, where you

24     were in the French judicial police.

25        A.   Yes.  I did my military service at age 18 as an officer.  Then I

Page 9629

 1     went to law university during four years where I got what is now named a

 2     master 1 degree.  I passed the contest to enter the police at the rank of

 3     superintendent, joined the superintendent school during two years, and

 4     then started to work in the judicial police in Paris, in Marseilles, and

 5     in Nice, mainly in the field of drugs trafficking but also armed

 6     robberies.

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, let's get directly to your work as the

 8     Srebrenica team leader.

 9             You have in the past described the different -- as you viewed,

10     the different phases or parts of the Srebrenica investigation.  Can you

11     just briefly tell us how you divide the Srebrenica investigation up, how

12     you went about doing it in these different parts you've talked about, if

13     you understand what I'm saying?

14        A.   Yes, I do.  Due mainly to human resources, we had to split the

15     investigation in various phases which happened naturally.  The first one

16     was to collect witness statements in order to reconstruct the events

17     according to the multiple stories of these witnesses.  Then the second

18     phase, once the territory of Republika Srpska where the events happened

19     was accessible, we could start missions in order to find the locations

20     the witnesses were talking about, and collect evidence in order to

21     confirm or infirm [sic] the stories we were told.

22             There was then a need to find also where the bodies of the

23     executed people were.  This task was then complicated and took a long

24     time because of a disturbance of these graves.  Then once the events were

25     reconstructed and the bodies found, all this being not in several phases,

Page 9630

 1     these phases were mixed, then the focus was more on identifying the

 2     perpetrators, so the military units involved and those responsible for

 3     the events, including for this, the necessity to conduct searches in

 4     military facilities, mainly the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade,

 5     and also put a hand on the intercepts, what we now call the intercepts.

 6             Following this was also the final phase, if one can say so, of

 7     interviewing as many witnesses and suspects among the military and the

 8     police.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, I note that you've taken something with you

10     in -- that you have in front of you.  Can you tell us what that is?

11        A.   This is the -- the book of all the exhibits that we are going to

12     go through during my testimony.

13        Q.   All right.  And before I get to that, I think we should --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could, Mr. President, provide Mr. Ruez with

15     a -- a list of some of the witnesses that he may refer to but we have

16     their RM numbers, because many of them are in private session, and if he

17     does get asked about specific witnesses, it would be helpful for him to

18     have that.  We have given that list to the -- to the Defence.  It's

19     something that we have traditionally done with Mr. Ruez to protect the

20     witnesses.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem with that.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

23        Q.   Now the book --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, although, of course, the Chamber

25     would immediately switch to which witnesses who -- but it might assist us

Page 9631

 1     as well to have a copy of the -- not to know that we couldn't find it,

 2     but if we have it in front of us it is easier.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and we did make some extra copies.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, the book, which I note is 65 ter 28756,

 6     that, Your Honours, you should have a copy of that book in front of you

 7     as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Judges received a copy.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Did you create this -- this book, Mr. Ruez?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And what did you create it from?

13        A.   Mainly from photographs that I took and from maps that I created.

14        Q.   And was this done for the purpose of trials?

15        A.   It was done for the purpose of trials and adapted depending on

16     the people who were on trial.

17        Q.   And have we, the Prosecution, reduced the book from the Tolimir

18     trial about 25 photographs, to try to make this a more targeted

19     testimony?

20        A.   Yes.  It is a short version, let's say, of the entire -- the

21     entire book.

22        Q.   And what did you have in mind for this book?  What -- what is it

23     supposed to do for the -- the Judges?

24        A.   Yes, absolutely, it is designed to help orientate oneself in the

25     crime-scene area which is a very big area since it is 70 kilometres

Page 9632

 1     north/south and 40 kilometres east/west, dotted with concentration spots

 2     for prisoners, execution sites, primary mass graves and secondary mass

 3     graves.  It gives a feeling of the locations of these -- these places and

 4     also a view of the terrain in this global environment and mainly also the

 5     distances between the various sites.

 6        Q.   And did any of the information that you have on these photographs

 7     and in your book, did that come from the -- some of the actual witnesses

 8     that we see on this -- on this particular list as well as the other

 9     witnesses in the -- in the investigation?

10        A.   Yes, indeed.  We tried in these locations to find elements the

11     witnesses were talking about.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, without further ado, let's get to the book, and

13     as we do, go through it as efficiently as we can to help provide the

14     Court with these -- the visualisations.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we first go to -- it's page 1 in the book but

16     it's page 19 on e-court.

17        Q.   And we will, of course, Mr. Ruez, be using the electronic machine

18     that you're very familiar with.

19             All right.  This is the first illustration in the book.  Tell us

20     briefly why you chose that, what's it there for?

21        A.   This is the map of the entire crime scene from north to south,

22     east and west.  The -- the blue square is the approximate location of

23     so-called safe area of Srebrenica, and the rest we will go through it

24     step by step.

25        Q.   All right.  And are you familiar with the direction that the VRS

Page 9633

 1     first attacked from in -- in coming towards the enclave of Srebrenica?

 2        A.   Yes.  The VRS entered the enclave from the south, totally at the

 3     bottom of this map, the area named Zeleni Jadar.

 4        Q.   And in the investigation, did you at various times do helicopter

 5     flights where you took photos and videos of these particular areas?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.  Mainly in order to -- to show to the Court the

 7     distances between the locations.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would like now to just show

10     a -- a short video clip that it does not have sound to it.  It is not

11     part of the -- the trial video.  The trial video is real time, war-time

12     material.  This is some of Mr. Ruez's investigative materials.  But it --

13     it doesn't have dialogue and Mr. Ruez will -- will maybe speak to us

14     about it.  But it's also just for your viewing.

15             And it is 65 ter 22313A.  And Ms. Stewart will handle that

16     through Sanction.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE WITNESS:  So here the helicopter is flying from south to

19     north following, in fact, the road that leads to Srebrenica town.  These

20     pictures give a good indication of the terrain in this area that we call

21     the area south, so a lot of hills and valleys.  This is then the type of

22     terrain the people walked through even though it is not precisely in that

23     location but the terrain looks similar in this area.  Very hilly.

24             Here is a view of Srebrenica town stretched in between two -- two

25     hills.

Page 9634

 1             Here we reach the centre town, an area that will be a topic of

 2     testimony by Drazen Erdemovic, events in the centre town.

 3             The view is continuing towards the north, still Srebrenica town.

 4     Going to the direction of Bratunac.

 5             Here, in Srebrenica the focus is on the Company B of the UN

 6     battalion which was stationed in Srebrenica.  This is the facility of

 7     this Company B.

 8        Q.   Excuse me, just to interrupt.  We've stopped at 00:01:2:44 as you

 9     described Company B and let's -- I think we can continue the film.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE WITNESS:  So then there is a distance of approximately

12     5 kilometres going to the direction of Potocari, which is halfway between

13     Srebrenica and Bratunac town.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   All right.  Are you --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, a second ago you told us what other

17     witnesses would testify about.  We expect such information not from a

18     witness but, rather, from the Prosecution.  Could you keep that in mind,

19     that, if at any time during your testimony you want to refer to

20     statements taken, et cetera, that's fine.  But what other witnesses will

21     tell us in the future of this case is, of course, something we expect

22     from the Prosecution and not from you.

23             THE WITNESS:  No problem.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.

Page 9635

 1        Q.   Now, are you familiar, Mr. Ruez, with a section of a video that

 2     shows a similar approach but on the ground that was actually shot on

 3     the -- at the time that the VRS and General Mladic were approaching

 4     Srebrenica from the south?

 5        A.   Yes, I am.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd like to show that video segment and there

 8     will be some speaking on it, but we'll have the subtitles, as

 9     Mr. President said, for the -- for reading as well as it can be read.

10             And that is 65 ter 28780.  It's V000-9265, and we're starting at

11     19:25 and going through 21:45.

12        Q.   And we may still it a time or two for you to help us identify

13     some of the individuals on the -- the video.  And this should be 11 July.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We should have audio.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go --

19        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us -- we're now at 2:00:57.  Can you

20     tell us who that is?

21        A.   Yes, this man is General Zivanovic.  That day, the commander of

22     the Drina Corps.

23        Q.   And we -- I think we can all agree we saw General Mladic on the

24     clip right before this.

25        A.   And we saw the back of General Krstic also.

Page 9636

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And let's continue to play it.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE WITNESS:  At the left of General Mladic is

 5     Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the chief of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that's at 20:24:6.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for the record I think it is the right of

 8     Mr. Mladic, not to his left.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Left of the picture, sorry.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And do you see General -- did you get a shot at General Krstic

14     here at this -- at this 20:27:2?

15        A.   Yes, at the right of the picture.

16        Q.   Right.  Thank you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Why don't we continue.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE WITNESS:  This soldier is not UNPROFOR soldier.  He is just

20     wearing a blue helmet taken from the UN soldiers.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We end at 21:45.4.  And the Defence

23     will probably agree that Mladic was never able to get that APC unstuck

24     from the tree.  But I don't think we need to show the rest of that

25     section.

Page 9637

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But I would like to know what makes -- what's the

 2     source for Mr. Ruez to tell us that the person wearing the blue helmet is

 3     not -- is not a UN --

 4             THE WITNESS:  The source is here also from General Mladic himself

 5     who is saying to this man, Put the thing so you look like a UN soldier,

 6     UNPROFOR soldier.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then have the -- it scrolled back to the

 8     text of the subtitle.

 9             No, it's further.  And let me see ...

10             It's not what you said, Mr. Ruez.  That's not what I read here.

11             THE WITNESS:  "Put that on so it can be seen that are you an

12     UNPROFOR member."  So he is asking this Bosnian Serb soldier to put the

13     blue helmet so that he can look like an UNPROFOR soldier.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  This all suggests that is a Bosnian Serb soldier

15     which that's exactly what I would like you -- to ask you about, how you

16     know that.

17             THE WITNESS:  We don't know of a UN soldier who was on that spot.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you interpret the words apparently spoken

19     here, "Put it on so that we can see that you're an UN soldier, UNPROFOR

20     member," that due to any absence of knowledge of the presence of an

21     UNPROFOR soldier, that it's your conclusion that it must have been to --

22     to look as if -- that's your conclusion.

23             THE WITNESS:  I agree.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's not what Mr. Mladic says here.

25             THE WITNESS:  I agree.

Page 9638

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed.  Well, I say "please proceed," but not for more

 3     than two minutes, Mr. McCloskey, or stop.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this is the time where we were

 5     going to begin going through the photographs so it's a good time to stop.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think we should take a -- we should adjourn

 7     for the day.

 8             We adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you back, Mr. Ruez,

 9     tomorrow, but I first would like to instruct you that you should not

10     speak or communicate in any way with whomever about your testimony,

11     whether that's testimony you -- you gave today or whether it's testimony

12     still to be given in the days to come.  But we'd like to see you back

13     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom because we adjourn for

14     the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 11th of April, in this

15     same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.

16             We stand adjourned.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of

19                           April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.