1 Thursday, 11 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 I do understand that there are no preliminaries. While the
12 witness is escorted into the courtroom, I'd like to use the time to deal
13 briefly with a matter, and it's the Prosecution's motion to substitute
14 proposed expert Ols with Curtis. On the 13th of April of this year, the
15 Defence filed its response to the Prosecution motion to amend its
16 Rule 65 ter witness list to substitute Martin Ols, RM625, with colleague
17 Timothy Curtis, which was filed on the 25th of March.
18 The Defence does not oppose the proposed substitution of these
19 two witnesses but notes in its response that it is still awaiting
20 additional information and material relating to the report tendered for
21 Witness Ols which is the same report the Prosecution intends to tender
22 with proposed witness Curtis. Given that the Defence does not object to
23 the substitution, the Chamber hereby grants the addition of
24 Timothy Curtis to the Rule 65 ter witness list, and confirms the
25 withdrawal of Martin Ols.
1 The Prosecution is consequently instructed to file a Rule 65 ter
2 summary for Witness Curtis.
3 The Chamber recalls that in its 9th of November, 2012, decision
4 it found that Ols was sufficiently qualified to testify as an expert
5 witness. Upon review of Witness Curtis's CV contained in an annex to the
6 Prosecution's motion to substitute him for Ols, the Chamber is satisfied
7 of his expertise, noting, in particular, the fact that he was a signatory
8 of the tendered report.
9 The Chamber further recalls that in its decision of the
10 9th of November, 2012, it had decided that Ols cannot be called for at
11 least 30 days from the date that the Defence received further information
12 and material specified in paragraph 10 of the Chamber's decision,
13 relating to the applied methodology in the report.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Similarly, Witness Curtis may be called at the
16 earliest 30 days from the date that the Prosecution has provided all the
17 relevant material to the Defence.
18 Is the Prosecution already in a position to give an indication as
19 to when it anticipates completing the disclosure of the requested
20 additional information and materials to the Defence?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
22 We just received that information and we have copied it, and we
23 are meeting with the Defence over coffee this afternoon to discuss the
24 other matters, and we'll provide it to them this afternoon.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
1 Mr. Ruez, it is not very polite to continue speaking when you
2 enter the courtroom. Apologies for that. We were dealing with another
4 We'll continue, but may I remind you that you're still bound by
5 the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your
7 I was informed that you would like to have your glasses which
8 have you not brought with you. If there would be any way to -- that we
9 can assist to get them, we'll be happy to do so. And, otherwise, we
10 might be a bit more patient.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have a small selection of glasses which sometimes
13 help witnesses, so we'll give you our series of what we have and then
14 let's see whether it helps or not. Please do not hesitate to ask for
15 further assistance, if needed.
16 I'll put on my glasses ...
17 Yes, I see Mr. Mladic has some glasses left which I do not know
18 whether they have the proper size. I take it that it is.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. I could do without and we can
20 sort that out during the next recess.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. During the next break we'll further deal with
22 the glasses.
23 Mr. McCloskey, if you're ready, please continue your
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would like to begin by offering the short
1 helicopter overflight video we saw, 65 ter 22313A, into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22313A receives number P1128,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 Could you please repeat --
8 THE REGISTRAR: The number was P1128.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P1128 is admitted into evidence.
10 Please proceed.
11 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
12 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
13 Q. And we will continue with your chronology of photos and exhibits.
14 If we go to e-court page 20. It's where we left off, and it's exhibit
15 number 28756. And this is in your chapter entitled: "Srebrenica town."
16 It's page 2 in the -- in the book -- in your book, Mr. Ruez, but you'll
17 see it on the screen.
18 Now, we can -- some of these, as you know, are more
19 self-explanatory than others and so we can go through them. And that's
20 page 20 in e-court. We can go through them with your comments. Some
21 will obviously be more than others.
22 This first shot?
23 A. This first shot is only a still photograph showing the arrival
24 when coming from Zeleni Jadar and on the first hill overlooking
25 Srebrenica town.
1 Q. Let's go to 21 in e-court, the next page, page 3 in the book.
2 A. And this view is also a still picture so -- of a better quality,
3 showing the centre of the town.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. This is a map graphic.
5 A. So this one is -- indicates one of the two courses of action that
6 the population -- yeah, the population inside the enclave took on
7 11 July. Since during the previous days most of the people had assembled
8 around the Bravo Company in Srebrenica town, on 11 July, once it was
9 realised that UN air-strikes that were supposed to stop the attack were a
10 failure, the decision was made for these men who decided to flee to take
11 the direction of the north of the enclave and assemble together in an
12 area of a village named Susnjari which is circled with the green dots.
13 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. And this?
14 A. This is the second movement, the second option that the
15 population took. So all the women, the children, the elderly, but also
16 an amount of men who did not want to try to escape through the forest
17 decided to move from Srebrenica town and find shelter in and around the
18 UN base, the main base, which was in Potocari, approximately 5 kilometres
19 north of Srebrenica town.
20 Q. And we see a grey perimeter going around Srebrenica with yellow
21 dots and letters. Can you just briefly explain what that is.
22 A. These dots mark the positions of the UN observation posts which
23 were positioned on the so-called border of the enclave but there was no
24 borders at this enclave. It's rough positions of -- of the enclave.
25 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next page which you refer to as
1 Potocari. And we now have an aerial image. Can you briefly explain
2 where we got this aerial image. And we see yellow markings and we see
3 black and white printing in blocks. Could you explain, as you can, what
4 this means?
5 A. Yes. These -- these are aerial pictures. This one as well as
6 the other ones in the book were provided by the US State Department. All
7 markings on these pictures in white are the markings originally made by
8 the provider, in this case, overview Potocari, Bosnia and Herzegovina, as
9 well as the date, 13 July 1995. This markings were initially on the
10 picture. The yellow markings are markings that I added to the picture in
11 order to pin-point the main structures witnesses refer to when it comes
12 to describe the situation in Potocari during the 12 and the 13 July 1995.
13 Q. All right. And we -- we see the -- the yellow markings. You
14 made those personally?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And the Court has heard about the UN base and the White House so
17 I don't think we need you to mention those at this point. The other
18 places that you have marked, what was the significance of the others, the
19 express bus compound, the other buildings?
20 A. When the people arrived in Potocari in the evening of the 11,
21 where they spent also the 12, the night between the 12 and the 13, since
22 the evacuation was totally finished the 13, the people found shelter for
23 some of them inside the UN base, but once this base was full they had to
24 find shelter elsewhere. So they found shelter mainly in the express bus
25 compound facility, the zinc factory and the Energoinvest, otherwise
1 called the 11 of March factory. So the witnesses, most of them refer to
2 these buildings. But others were also spending the night outside or in
3 houses but as close as possible always to the UN base.
4 Q. All right. And were you yourself on the ground in Potocari at
5 various times during the investigation?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.
9 Overview Potocari, is up south or is up north?
10 THE WITNESS: This one is direction south.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: In fact, I showed each time precise what is the
13 direction of the photograph because sometimes, indeed, it is south rather
14 than north. This one is looking --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: -- towards the south.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's say, common is to have north at the top --
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- but on this page it's just the opposite.
20 THE WITNESS: Reversed, absolutely right.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. So if we could go to page 25 in e-court and this is a -- what is
25 A. So this one is -- shows more or less the same things than the
1 other one but this one is looking in the good direction; that is, north.
2 And you can easily now recognise not only the UN base, have another
3 assessment of the distance between the UN base and the White House, but
4 also see that the factories we were talking about are in a very close
5 perimeter. At the right of the White House, you have the -- the express
6 bus compound. And then you have also the zinc factory with the blue
7 roof. And a bit above it, bottom left of the zinc factory you have the
8 11th of March factory.
9 The interest of this one is also -- when you look at the circle
10 around the White House, the line at the bottom of the circle positions
11 also where was the separation line where the UN soldiers were positioned,
12 the Bosnian Serb soldiers were positioned. The people went through this
13 line at that location and that's where the separation process took place.
14 Women and children, elderly put aside, and -- and in buses, and the men
15 taken to the White House. It's where the big tree -- the big tree just
16 at the bottom of the White House.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I do encourage Your Honours, I know you will
19 ask questions, because we will try to move this along because you have
20 seen evidence already on some of this, as you know.
21 Q. Let go to the next -- the next page, 26 in e-court. We see snow
22 on the ground. Tell us what this is about.
23 A. This picture was taken end of January 1996. It was the first
24 opportunity for me to access to the territory of the Republika Srpska.
25 Thanks to a visit that was made there by Mr. John Shattuck, who was
1 under-secretary of state for human rights and who wanted to go to
2 Republika Srpska, to Nova Kasaba, in order to show that there was freedom
3 of movement implemented since the Dayton Agreements. So there were press
4 waiting there. But we left from Belgrade for this mission, and
5 Mr. Shattuck accepted, in fact, to transform the mission as a kind of
6 fact-finding mission for me and a colleague who was with me so that we
7 could visit a few sites we absolutely wanted to -- to locate and use this
8 opportunity. So we could go to the -- the school of Orahovac. We could
9 go to the soccer field at Nova Kasaba. We could stop at Glogova and
10 could also have this stop in Potocari, so this is why there is snow on
11 the ground in this location.
12 Q. What is this on page 26 in e-court, page 8 in your book?
13 A. So this is one of the most important structure in Potocari since
14 it is the house where the men who were separated from the others were
15 taken to, and from this house, once the house was full, the men were
16 taken on board of buses and driven to Bratunac. This house was visited
17 by UN military observer, Major Kingori, who, when he was interviewed,
18 claimed that on this spot he was present with General Mladic.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
20 A. This is another view of -- of the house. This witness I referred
21 to said that this house was totally full. People were compressed inside,
22 and it was so full that some were even also on the balcony. We had
23 access to a video filmed by Zoran Petrovic at the time of the events, but
24 this independent journalist had erased from his film some important parts
25 which provided interesting information. Among the pieces that he had
1 erased from his film is this very short view of men sitting on a balcony,
2 and as you can see, you can see the bars of this balcony. They match
3 perfectly the ones of this extract of the Zoran Petrovic video. So these
4 are photographs of men at the White House. So prisoners at this moment.
5 Q. Now we will have an investigator that will talk in much more
6 depth about the -- the two Petrovic videos, the one that had the missing
7 parts, and then the missing parts.
8 But briefly, Mr. Ruez, while you were still an investigator here,
9 had the missing parts been available to you and had they appeared yet?
10 A. No. We knew they were of fundamental importance since would they
11 not be, this journalist would have had no need to erase them but they
12 were only accessible to the OTP after my departure in 2001.
13 Q. Now, we can see in this still this circle upon circles and it
14 says "B." Can you tell us what that says from your knowledge?
15 A. Yes. It is the logo and the name of independent television in
17 Q. And can you explain where this -- just very briefly where
18 these -- these lost clips, if I would call them that, came from. How --
19 how did they appear? Were they played over something?
20 A. They were played -- they were -- they were played in Belgrade
21 once. I think before the cuts. But during years we -- despite of many
22 efforts, we could never put a hand on an original recording of these.
23 Q. All right. I'm going to go back now to the -- the trial video,
24 65 ter 28780, which does contain the -- both the original Petrovic video
25 that Mr. Ruez had without the -- without the missing cuts. And then we
1 have, as you will see, overlayed the missing cut that we see the still
2 from. And if you could watch this. It's 9:09 to 10:54, V000-9267.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: There should be sound and some subtitling.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE WITNESS: These are clothings, bags, dumped by these men
7 before entering the -- the White House. They had to abandon their
8 belongings in front of the house.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we are at 09:23:7.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE WITNESS: That's Feros, just next to the UN main compound.
12 So the abandoned bags. Here you see Major Kingori with a few other
13 UN soldiers and a Serb interpreter, the man wearing a Kalashnikov and a
14 blue flak jacket, which is not UN equipment. This blue flak jacket is
15 Bosnian Serb equipment, a real one.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. And you've mentioned --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second. There seems to be a sound problem.
19 Could we ...
20 I'll speak a few words to see whether it is any better. It seems
21 to have been resolved.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Yes, Mr. Ruez. At 9:55:4, can you -- you mention Major Kingori.
25 Can you point him out for us so it's clear on the record.
1 A. He is at the left of the picture, turning his back to the
3 Q. All right. Let's continue.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 A. Now you can see Colonel Borovcanin, the head of the special
6 police brigade.
7 Q. And where precisely is Borovcanin?
8 A. I didn't check there was any cut before, but in that case, it is
9 in front of the White House.
10 Q. I'm sorry, which one so we know exactly --
11 A. Right -- right in the middle of the picture, without a hat.
12 Q. Okay. And that's at 9:59:5.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 A. Yeah. So this is the entrance of the White House.
15 Q. Okay. I'll stop it here at 10:17:2.
16 Can you explain why it went from the White House to this -- looks
17 like a shell casing?
18 A. I have no idea. It is the way Zoran Petrovic organised his film.
19 Q. Now let's continue to the next segment which is a new -- new
20 Studio B segment, I believe.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 A. So here is the site of the balcony with the men sitting on the
24 Q. All right. And we're at 10:44:9.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 Q. Now we heard at -- we end at 10:53:8. We heard a person speaking
2 in Serbian and we saw lettering going on underneath. Can you tell us
3 what that is, if you remember?
4 A. The only thing I can say about this is to confirm that once I
5 said in previous trial that Zoran Petrovic was, in my view, it is my
6 purely personal opinion, not an independent journalist but a
7 propagandist. I think that these comments are clear enough to explain
8 the reason why I believe this.
9 Q. Was that part of the -- this Studio B playback over Belgrade
11 A. I would believe so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second.
13 We saw subtitling not in English, moving from the right to the
14 left in the picture. We also saw subtitles in English, apparently
15 reflecting the words spoken. You were talking about which of the two?
16 THE WITNESS: I'm talking only about the subtitles because I do
17 not understand the local language.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we do not yet what we saw as far as the
19 language, may I take it we'll most likely be B/C/S starting with Bambi or
20 something of the kind.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can ask Mr. Ruez --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Second, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Ruez introduced a Mr. --
23 as his private personal opinion, not evidence, that he thought that
24 Mr. Petrovic was a propagandist, rather. This witness comes as a witness
25 of fact. We heard, or at least we read, the words spoken, that these
1 were all registered criminals on the balcony. The personal views of this
2 witness who is called as a witness of fact are not relevant.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And we should be very careful anyhow that often you
6 explain what we see, what it was. Sometimes I take it that you want to
7 tell us that you think that it was A, B, or C, because you concluded that
8 from statements given by other persons and combining that with what you
9 saw on the ground. We have to be very careful where you are presenting
10 facts you observed personally and where you explain, more or less
11 summarise, what others said. Apart, of course, from adjudicated facts.
12 That's a different area.
13 But let's try not to mix it up.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for your information, the transcript,
16 Mr. President, of the trial video actually has a translation of the -- of
17 that part at English 76 through 77, and B/C/S 71 through 72. But perhaps
18 Mr. Ruez will remember --
19 Q. Do you recall back when you first saw this and that there was an
20 advertisement for a -- or a mentioning of a Rolling Stones concert in
21 Belgrade going along the bottom of that screen. Do you have any
22 recollection of that?
23 A. Yes, I do, yeah.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So the simple answer then is: It's commercials.
25 Let's proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. All right. Let now go to the next page, which you basically note
3 in a map graphic. We see a -- it's page 28 in e-court. And it's page 10
4 in your book but you'll see it on the screen.
5 And down in the right corner we just see a black arrow. Briefly.
6 A. So that's the direction that was taken by these men who were
7 separated into Potocari and moved to a very short distance from Potocari
8 to the town of Bratunac. This happened starting the 12 and it continued
9 the 13. The men -- so in -- in Potocari, direction Bratunac.
10 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
11 We see a blue arrow and a circle over the city of Bratunac. What
12 is this?
13 A. This shows the direction from -- the picture is going -- it's
14 north-west orientation, so the arrow shows the direction, the straight
15 line coming from Potocari inside Bratunac town, and the interest of this
16 picture is to show that Bratunac is a very small town.
17 Q. All right. And we'll get into Bratunac in little more detail
19 Let's go to the next picture. E-court 30. This is the beginning
20 of a chapter that you call "Ex-filtration," and we see another black
21 arrow from the Susnjari-Jaglici area across Nova Kasaba. What's this?
22 A. As I said, the men who assembled in Susnjari, these men were
23 mainly of two groups, the 28th Division of BiH Army. The enclave had
24 never been demilitarised despite of the agreements. These soldiers were
25 armed. They were approximately 6.000 among a crowd of 15.000. The
1 others were mainly unarmed but some had also weapons, and there was a
2 very small army group at the end of this column. So we -- 28th Division
3 went in front, first the -- all these people had to cross a minefield, so
4 they opened a very small path. So it was a very slow process to get out
5 of the area. It -- it took the night between the -- the 11 and the 12,
6 and so this -- this column, I said it like an ant column, moved towards
7 the collection of Konjevic Polje. The -- the black arrow is a rough
8 indication. The real path is a bit underneath the Kravica river, because
9 there is a steep hill just at the south of the -- of the strategic road
10 going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje where there is on top of this hill
11 a power line, electrical power line, and this was the orientation for all
12 the people, most of them who didn't knew the area. So they follow --
13 they had to follow this power line because this power line was going
14 straight towards Konjevic Polje.
15 Konjevic Polje is a very important location since it is the
16 crossing point from this area to the area west, the limit being the road
17 between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba. As long as this road
18 Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba was open, the column could go through, and
19 this was the fate of the first group, the army. But once, on 13 in the
20 morning, this was sealed by the Bosnian Serb army, the people were
21 trapped in this area, so between Konjevic Polje and roughly the area of
23 So this elements on this map are very important to keep in mind
24 because we will talk about these locations later on. And, also, I would
25 like to point to you at the tip of this arrow, where the tip of the arrow
1 is, is a big hill, and this hill is something that you will hear about
2 also because it's from this hill that several witnesses could see events
3 in the area.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a question at this point in time.
5 Mr. Ruez, obviously you have not been present while the column
6 was moving. What is the source of your knowledge about numbers of people
7 in the column, the composition of the column, which part of the column
8 was composed of soldiers, armed soldiers, and others? What is the source
9 of your knowledge of all these details?
10 THE WITNESS: It is multiple sources. In fact, it's a
11 combination of several witness statements from people who made this
12 movement as well as the Bosnian Serb army. 6.000 armed men arrived alive
13 in -- in Tuzla, members of the 28th Division. So army in front, people
14 behind. It's -- it's an indication given by many -- many witnesses. And
15 that the final result, as we know, as the Defence knows also, the main
16 target of this operation fled, which is to say, the 28th Division. Most
17 of it, let's say.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: When I ask you about -- when I ask you about your
19 knowledge and your source, it's not necessary to refer to the knowledge
20 of the Defence.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a follow-up question.
23 My question is: If your source is from a number of witnesses who
24 were there, why do we hear you and not those witnesses?
25 THE WITNESS: You could call in maybe 15 or 20 people rather than
1 me just for this part. Because many of these people had nothing very
2 important to say in terms of crimes committed. We interviewed a lot of
3 people, and we didn't keep all of them as key witnesses, since this case
4 quite quickly ended up focussing only on the main crimes. We had to
5 disregard a lot of -- let's say, small criminal events. But at the
6 beginning of the investigation, we were taking information from a lot of
7 witnesses but without necessarily later on calling them as witnesses here
8 for the trial because we didn't have, let's say, enough severe crimes to
9 talk about.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I remind you, Mr. McCloskey, of the best
11 evidence rule.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. May I briefly respond so that you --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, before you do so, perhaps I add one
15 Mr. Ruez, when you're talking about "we," on the one-hand side,
16 you say "we interviewed." That is a very factual thing you did.
17 In the next line you say, "We did not keep them as key
18 witnesses." That is the "we" who is making strategic and tactical
19 decisions for the Prosecution. As I said before, I would like to have
20 this all strictly separated. It started already yesterday with my first
21 question, how do you know, and then you said, Well, of course, this is a
22 conclusion because no soldier was there from UNPROFOR.
23 Let's try to clearly distinguish facts -- the fact being
24 Witness A told me this, Witness B told me that, Witness C told you that.
25 Because these are facts that the witness told to you. And whether they
1 are all three lying, or whether they're all three telling us the truth,
2 or what you concluded on the basis of, et cetera, et cetera. There's a
3 thin line here, Mr. McCloskey, between the Chamber drawing the
4 conclusions on the basis of the evidence and a witness of fact drawing
5 the conclusions on the basis of the evidence.
6 And that is, I think, a concern which was expressed already by
7 all three of the Judges until now and we're only one hour on our way.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could attempt to explain.
9 When Mr. Ruez speaks, what -- what I believe -- the Prosecution
10 takes it as what he is saying is the investigation has revealed that.
11 And we -- the purpose of his testimony is in about five hours to give
12 you, as he has said, a background of the chronology of the events and the
13 places where it happened. We don't suggest that you're taking Mr. Ruez's
14 word on -- on events. He is speaking of -- of witnesses that are either
15 in this record in 92 bis or will testify. What he is trying to do is
16 just give you an overall picture of these places and what the
17 investigation revealed.
18 And, as you can see, he also is -- mentions things that the
19 Defence fully believe and the non-demilitarisation of the enclave, the
20 presence of the 28th Division. In that regard, the Defence will see that
21 we're not challenging those things.
22 So he's really designed only in five hours to give you a
23 background of what the investigation has revealed. It's hearsay. It's
24 not necessarily for the truth of the matter he's asserted. I'm not sure
25 any judgements have cited Mr. Ruez. He is here so that when the
1 witnesses such as the one you saw yesterday comes to the soccer field,
2 you have already seen the picture of the soccer field and the brief
3 description. So that's all it is for, to give you a five-hour background
4 of what the investigation revealed and the places. It is not meant to
5 replace any evidence or witnesses.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed at this moment. And we do understand
7 that most of the answers of Mr. Ruez should start, to begin with, with
8 the investigation and the witnesses gave us the impression that this
9 might have been the case. That is apparently -- and then we'll later, on
10 the basis of the evidence, we'll see whether that impression will be the
11 impression and the conclusion of the Chamber as well.
12 Mr. Ruez, would you also carefully keep in mind when using your
13 language not to tell us what happened but what you think has happened on
14 the basis of your interviews of witnesses and going to the terrain.
15 This is just a caveat for all of us, that we should try to
16 present it for what it really is and to understand it for what it really
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. It's e-court 31. And
21 you've got a -- a photograph and a yellow arrow. What has the
22 investigation revealed that -- that allows you or causes you to put up
23 this picture and this arrow?
24 A. So this picture really reveals nothing. It shows -- seen from in
25 direction towards south at the bottom of the picture, the strategic road
1 I was referring to previously with the two directions, and according to
2 the knowledge I gained from these interviews, the alleged direction that
3 these people took is marked on this map with this yellow arrow. So you
4 can see the road, you can see bend going south of the hill, and these
5 folks were walking on top just behind this hill, according to my
7 Q. All right. And let's go to the next page, just briefly what area
8 is -- is this and what do you believe it depicts?
9 A. I believe this depicts the big hill I was referring to
10 previously, which is at the junction before Nova Kasaba and
11 Konjevic Polje. This is the hill where some witnesses, I and other
12 investigators, so we, think is the hill from where people could see
13 events happening in Nova Kasaba, at Cerska valley, and at Konjevic Polje.
14 Q. The next page. 33 in e-court.
15 A. Mm-hm. So one is once you are on the hill but at the bottom of
16 the hill, this is a picture I took as well as the other one, by the way,
17 this is so the area the column had to cross, if willing, then to continue
18 its way towards Muslim-held territory, and so there is an open space
19 here, and you have to go to the opposite side and there is a road and a
21 And at the right is the intersection of Konjevic Polje, going
22 right would return to Bratunac, going left going south towards
23 Nova Kasaba, and at the top of the picture, it's going along the
24 Jadar river to the direction of Zvornik. The yellow arrow is indicating
25 the movement this column was taking.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Are we now on this picture facing south or north?
2 THE WITNESS: This one is facing north.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means the yellow dotted line indicates
4 where you think, on the basis of the evidence of the -- on the
5 testimonies, the statements of the witnesses, that they came from -- let
6 me see.
7 THE WITNESS: From the direction of Bratunac.
8 JUDGE ORIE: From Bratunac. And this is then where they had to
9 cross the road --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- where you said there was a strategic issue
13 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. The strategic blockade of the area
14 that sealed the --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's just for my orientation.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Let go to the next chapter entitled: "Surrender and arrest."
19 And the next page is 34 on e-court, 16 in the book. And you have your
20 first page, prisoners of war. And did the investigation identify various
21 sites where Muslim men were assembled on 13 July?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you go to those sites you learned of and photograph them
24 and put them in this book?
25 A. Yes, this is correct.
1 Q. And I take it -- tell us, these blue circles that we see on this
2 page in front of us, what is that?
3 A. These blue circles indicate the rough location of assembly points
4 for captured men.
5 Q. All right. And so let's now go through them. We can see that
6 there's one off the page that didn't make it on the map, Luke. And let's
7 go to the next page. It's 35 in e-court.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.
9 May I take it, although you didn't tell us, that the size of the
10 circles is indicative for larger or smaller numbers.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is correct. But it is really a very,
12 very rough --
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- that's what I said indicative for larger
14 or smaller numbers --
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Otherwise I would have said indicative for the
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. All right. So we're now at a page and we see a blue circle at
22 Luke just off the map. So I -- I take it we're speaking of Luke at this
24 A. Yes absolutely. It's out of the map, unfortunately. Luke is
25 the -- is a -- let's say, a little location just before reaching the
1 front -- the confrontation line which at that place is named Kladanj. So
2 the men who were -- I mean, the people who were taken on board of buses
3 were shipped towards Kladanj where they had to finish the way by foot.
4 But just before this, another separation took place, and the men who
5 managed to get on board of these buses were later on -- I mean, at least
6 one, the witness we know, they were separated here and taken, according
7 to this man, to an elementary school. So we -- we were looking for this
8 school in Tisca, in fact, which is on the map, but it was not in Tisca.
9 We ended up going to Luke with this witness without whom we would not
10 have found this very small elementary school.
11 Q. Did you find it?
12 A. Yes, we did, mm-hm.
13 Q. Let's go to the next page. 36 in e-court.
14 What's this?
15 A. So this is the location he describes. The orientation of this
16 picture is roughly towards the west, so the -- the buses were taking this
17 road towards this -- towards this direction but those who were separated
18 were walked towards this small building. This is the building he showed
19 us as being the building in which he was kept.
20 Q. Let's go to the next page, 37.
21 Is this the same building?
22 A. It is the same building seen from the back. The vehicle was
23 ours. In his initial interview, he said that he first he was in a group
24 sitting in the -- on a meadow under a tree, and this is the -- this is
25 the area where he said having sat with a group of others on 13 July.
1 Q. All right.
2 A. 12 July. I can't remember very well. 12 or 13. 12.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture. 38 in e-court.
4 A. This is a classroom in which this witness claims having been
5 taken to and where he was beaten.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: This may be a good place to stop, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that.
9 Beaten by who?
10 THE WITNESS: Beaten by Bosnian Serb soldiers who were guarding
11 the prisoners.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We will ... we will take a break of 20 minutes and
14 resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 Meanwhile, I'll use the time to deal with a short procedural
20 matter about MFI D203. Exhibit D203 was tendered through Witness
21 Ekrem Suljevic on the 11th of February and subsequently marked for
22 identification pending clarification of the translation. Source in the
23 transcript is T8435. The Chamber notes the request of the Defence sent
24 through informal communications on the 10th of April, 2013, to replace
25 the English translation of D203 as it is currently in e-court with
1 doc ID 0084-7435, with another English translation with doc ID 1D03-1079.
2 I take it that replacement is to have a better translation or
3 just another one.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, we have reviewed that new translation
5 and have no objection to the replacement.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber hereby requests you,
7 Madam Registrar, to replace the current translation with doc ID
8 1D03-1079, and we admit D203 into evidence.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
12 Q. If we could continue we should be at e-court page 39 of the -- of
13 the book. Yeah. That's 38. Yes, 39.
14 And we were at the -- what you have referred to as the
15 regroupment sites, first one Luke. Now we see this page. What are the
16 regroupment sites here briefly?
17 A. Here are two -- two spots. One being Nova Kasaba, and the other
18 one the soccer field of Nova Kasaba.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
20 We have an aerial image which is noted buses at a facility. And
21 we see the yellow marks which we now know are marks that you put in.
22 What have you identified here?
23 A. So this picture identifies the location that is the
24 65th Protection Regiment compound. It is a military facility in which
25 Dutch UN peacekeeping personnel -- not Dutch and -- sorry, I'm reading
1 the transcript. It's UN keeping [sic] personnel was held as well as,
2 according to what they said, Bosnian prisoners. And on this aerial
3 imagery one can see that there are buses also on the parking lot.
4 Q. Now, have you been to this site yourself on the ground?
5 A. We never entered the -- the military facility but we took a
6 picture of it alongside of a road. You can see it's -- the short
7 distance of the road at the right, top right of the picture, is the --
8 the road that goes from Bratunac towards Kladanj.
9 Q. Did you learn or -- or did you -- or do you recall was this a --
10 always a military facility or was it some civilian facility at some
11 point, to your knowledge?
12 A. I have no knowledge about this. It was a military facility at
13 the time of the events and shortly afterward, but I don't know about it.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
15 What's this?
16 A. This is a -- the same military facility but seen from the road.
17 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on to the next page. And I -- I can tell
18 you the -- the Judges have had some dealings with this so if you could
19 just briefly explain -- explain this.
20 A. As the picture says it, according to the provider, it shows a bus
21 convoy but it is a still picture. We do not know if these buses are
22 going towards the -- the evacuation point or driving back to Bratunac.
23 This we don't know. What we can see on this picture is -- of interest is
24 also the soccer field. The picture is taken 14 [sic] July approximately
25 at 14 hours, at 2.00 p.m.
1 Q. I think -- take another look at the timing. I think you may have
3 A. 14 hours; 2.00 p.m.
4 Q. What date?
5 A. 13.
6 Q. Okay. All right. And then let's go to the next picture.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could -- could I ask the witness, which direction is
8 what? To the right is going to ...
9 THE WITNESS: To the right is going towards Bratunac, so first to
10 intersection of Konjevic Polje. And to the left, towards Nova Kasaba,
11 Vlasenica and Kladanj.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you considered the position of the buses
13 on the road when you said that no -- that you do not know whether the
14 buses are going in which direction?
15 THE WITNESS: We cannot say because it's a still.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if -- if these buses were driving to the
17 left of the picture, there were driving as if they were in England, isn't
19 THE WITNESS: I agree. But on the other hand, we don't know if
20 there are people are on board so it's -- their presence just shows that,
21 indeed, on 13 July there were a lot of bus movements in the area.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I --
23 THE WITNESS: You see --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. But I think the parties could
25 agree, I take it, that the buses --
1 THE WITNESS: They are coming back, yeah.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether they are coming back or not, they are
3 situated at the right-hand side of the road if you would look into the
4 direction of Konjevic Polje.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. They drive towards Konjevic Polje.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Whether they drive or not, I do not know --
7 THE WITNESS: Or not, yes --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- but they are situated on the right-hand side of
9 the road in that direction.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 Q. Now we see you have drawn yellow around this, concluding groups
14 of prisoners and football field. And is that your conclusion based on
15 information you received from the investigation, from the witnesses?
16 A. Yes, absolutely. And also from what we could observe from the
17 ground. You will see it later. Enables us to confirm -- I mean, say,
18 that what is seen on this picture on this soccer field is groups of
19 people, since the witnesses say these people were prisoners plus Bosnian
20 Serb guards. This picture shows them at that date, that hour.
21 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next page. 44 in e-court.
22 What's this?
23 A. This is a close-up picture of -- I mean, a zoom, in fact, of the
24 same picture as previously, where you can -- this time it's marked by the
25 provider also people on football field. So according to our knowledge,
1 these people, as I just indicated, are prisoners, lying in rows, and also
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the provider wasn't there either. Is
4 that --
5 THE WITNESS: The provider is an aerial platform and the provider
6 is US government.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But whether these were prisoners or not, the
8 US platform wouldn't know.
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We meanwhile receive the evidence so there is no
11 problem with it.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But, again, let's clearly distinguish between what
14 you can tell us, what we hear from witnesses and what you learned from
15 witnesses, and to say that the provider told us that these are
16 prisoners --
17 THE WITNESS: No, no, I said people. The witnesses -- there is a
18 misunderstanding, I mis-expressed myself maybe.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let me see.
20 THE WITNESS: The witnesses say these people were prisoners. The
21 picture says they are people.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, the Prosecution does consider
25 that the evidence of -- the information on this aerial image from the
1 provider is evidence and should have some weight. The weight you give it
2 only up to you, of course. But you'll, of course, test it with all the
3 witnesses. But it is more than just a label, in our view, because
4 it's -- the provider has said that they stand by this information.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, we have heard testimony about these
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 45 in e-court.
9 What's this?
10 A. This is the same soccer field, a still photograph taken from -- I
11 took from a helicopter. You can see the road. You can recognise the
12 football field. And just after that, you enter Nova Kasaba.
13 Q. Can you remind us where Milici is, if you recall?
14 A. Yes. Milici is -- if you continue this road, I would say maybe,
15 I don't remind very well, maybe 3 kilometres we arrive in Milici.
16 Q. Okay. Let's --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which direction?
18 THE WITNESS: Direction south. This picture is oriented south.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The picture is facing south. Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- next page. E-court 46.
22 What 's this?
23 A. This is a picture of this football field. I took it in
24 April 1996. And the men on this football field are Bosnian Serb
25 soldiers, dog handlers. The interest of it is to give an indication of
1 the size of a man on this football field that you can then compare with
2 the dots that you can see on the aerial imagery. To give an indication
3 of the size of objects on the aerial imagery.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next site, which you've got -- is
5 marked as Konjevic Polje, and we see your blue dot near that.
6 So let's go onto the next page. 48 in e-court.
7 What is -- where is this and what is it?
8 A. So this is at the -- very close to the intersection of
9 Konjevic Polje but going towards the direction of Bratunac. The right of
10 the picture is Bratunac. It is oriented north. It is another military
11 facility in this area. It is the -- the 5th Engineer Battalion who is
12 located at that place. One witness claims having surrendered at that
13 spot and was initially taken to this -- to this place.
14 Q. What's the circle?
15 A. The circle positions the -- the guard house that he describes as
16 being the first point he was taken to when he exited -- when he went down
17 the hill and exited the wooded area and arrived at this little -- at what
18 he said was a guard house.
19 Q. After reviewing or receiving this information from the witness,
20 did you have a chance to go to this area on the ground and see if there
21 was anything related to what he had said?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture.
24 What's this?
25 A. So this is the -- the military facility seen from the road. And
1 the first thing you see at the left is, indeed, the guard house that he
2 had described and that he recognised when we brought him back to this
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next --
5 A. This picture was taken before, but at a later stage we came back
6 with him.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- next picture. 50.
8 Where is this, and what's the significance of your markings?
9 A. This is, again, the intersection of Konjevic Polje facing the
10 north. You have the Jadar river at the left of the picture. And at the
11 right of the picture, where the blue line is, is the direction of
13 The building circled in blue is a hangar. This witness says that
14 after having spent a moment at the 5th Engineer Battalion he was taken to
15 this house where prisoners were regrouped. And it's not a house, it's a
16 hangar. It is the only picture we have of this hangar, since it was
17 destroyed one year later.
18 Q. Do you remember what's there now?
19 A. Yes. There is a gas station located on this -- on this spot.
20 Q. Let's go to the next picture.
21 JUDGE ORIE: One year after you took this photograph, was it
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. The following summer it was destroyed and
24 then there was a -- I think during one year there was nothing and the gas
25 station was already there in 1998. We wanted to probe a suspect site,
1 looking for bodies, but it was a mission impossible without destroying
2 the gas station.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean that -- when did you take the
4 photograph to the left?
5 THE WITNESS: This one was taken -- it's marked on it, it's
6 26 April 1997, this one, sorry. So it was destroyed in 1998. Yep.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One year after this --
8 THE WITNESS: This picture.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- picture was taken --
10 THE WITNESS: No, it was -- two things, sorry. Because there is
11 another one. This -- the first one we should have shown, in fact, is
12 this one because the other one has a more --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're a little bit mixed up.
14 Q. Are we talking about which photograph, the one that's on e-court
16 A. The one that is on e-court is April 1996. The previous one was
17 1997. It was destroyed in 1998 to construct the gas station. But we
18 have these pictures that match what the witness told us.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: So this --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
21 This one was taken in?
22 THE WITNESS: The one we have on the screen now is -- was taken
23 13 April 1996.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the one with the blue --
25 THE WITNESS: The one before -- the one after -- the one before,
1 sorry, was taken 26 April 1997.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: But this area doesn't exist any longer.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And since then it has been destroyed.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. As well as things changed a lot in the area.
6 On previous picture, just as -- for an example, there is a church, an
7 Orthodox church, this one was constructed that year, in 1997. It did not
8 exist in 1996.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was surprised by the speed of construction
10 because there's quite a bit of construction then apparently completed
11 within one year.
12 THE WITNESS: The first thing that was constructed very quickly
13 in the area were religious monuments.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. All right. We see now the close-up. I take it those are NATO
19 A. Yes. These were our escort.
20 Q. All right. Let's now go to the next regroupment site which you
21 have noted in the table of contents as Sandici. And we see your blue
22 mark by Sandici.
23 So let's go to the next page. 53 in e-court.
24 Where's this, what's the significance of the yellow?
25 A. Sorry, did we see the map?
1 Q. I had to skip it, I'm sorry.
2 A. Do we return on it? The map? Before this picture?
3 Q. We can if you have -- if you have something --
4 A. Just to spot the location but it is not necessary to return. We
5 all know --
6 Q. I think we're okay.
7 A. We're okay?
8 Q. Yeah.
9 A. So this picture is just to reference the location since we have a
10 piece of footage from Mr. Zoran Petrovic in this area. On his footage,
11 one can see at some point people surrendering, walking down a hill, and
12 you have two reference points from this film, the pylon and also the open
13 space where, on his film, one can see people arriving from. This is the
14 road going towards the direction of Bratunac. Sandici is just after the
15 curve and this hill where the pylon is.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, to the left -- what -- which direction is this
17 photograph facing?
18 THE WITNESS: It is taken from -- from west to east going towards
19 Bratunac. Just before arriving to Sandici, coming from Konjevic Polje.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. So Konjevic Polje is behind you --
22 A. Behind us.
23 Q. -- when you take that photograph?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And do you recall on the Petrovic film - we won't play it - but
1 was there any firing of any weapons up at those hills at the time of the
2 film, as you remember it?
3 A. Yeah, I think we could hear on the film some shooting going on,
4 which is quite logical, I would say. Yeah. It's mainly also where
5 the -- the area where one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers who is interviewed
6 says that they already had 5.000 people since the beginning of the day.
7 Q. All right. Well --
8 A. All this is in this spot, this area.
9 Q. Okay. We'll get to that with other witnesses.
10 Let's go to the next page. 54 in e-court.
11 What's this?
12 A. This is a view from the -- the asphalt road. The photograph
13 faces south. It is the -- the area from which the people who were on the
14 hills started a massive surrender process on 13 July in the morning.
15 They were coming down from these hills along the path that we can see on
16 the -- on the right and arrived on this area, then had to cross the road
17 that is just more or less where I took the picture from.
18 Q. And I don't need to you go into detail, but did you learn that
19 from a combination of things, or just witnesses?
20 A. It's -- yeah, it's a combination of -- of things coming from the
22 Q. Did the Petrovic video help you make these determinations as
24 A. Absolutely. The process is perfectly clear on the Petrovic
25 video. This is the path that the people walk along. And on the Petrovic
1 video you will see something of interest which is just the next picture.
2 Q. All right. Let's -- let's go to that picture then, the next one,
3 and it's 55 on e-court.
4 A. So this is photographed from the way the people are coming from,
5 so now it's facing north, so it's the opposite. And the -- the men were
6 walking just at the left of this white house, another white house,
7 two-storey house just at the left. And you have a piece of footage of
8 this surrender process on Zoran Petrovic happening right there.
9 Q. All right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One question, on the previous picture we saw a small
11 structure approximately 2 and a half metres high and to the right. Is
12 that visible on this one? Is that --
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- by any chance the structure we see at the right
15 middle side of this picture?
16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So --
18 THE WITNESS: I took the first picture from the left of the small
20 JUDGE ORIE: From the left of --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Left seen from where?
23 THE WITNESS: When you are -- when I took the photograph, so the
24 right on this -- on this picture. At the very right of this picture,
25 just at the angle of the small structure is from where I took the
1 previous picture.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I see a corner. I see on the previous picture, I
3 see a small white structure with what seems to be a door or an entry.
4 Now is that visible or is that hidden at the back of what we see now on
5 our screen?
6 THE WITNESS: It is the -- at the right, very right of this
7 picture. I was standing next to the small, little, destroyed house that
8 you can see at the right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: This is why on the previous picture you could see a
11 part of the wall of this small structure at the right of the picture.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Were you standing from this point of view before
13 the structure on the right-hand side of the structure or behind the
14 structure --
15 THE WITNESS: No --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- while you're taking the photograph?
17 THE WITNESS: On the previous picture I was standing at the right
18 of this photograph next to the small structure that you can see, and this
19 little structure is indicated by no witness. We don't know if this was
20 used for --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, this is not my question.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Look at the screen. We see the small structure
24 on the right-hand side of the picture. When you took the other
25 photograph, were you standing behind or on the right-hand side of that
1 building or in front of that building?
2 THE WITNESS: Next to it.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The little structure.
4 THE WITNESS: This is why we can see part of the wall --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's clear. But where next to it?
6 THE WITNESS: Seen on the photograph a little bit left, a little
7 bit left and a little bit behind there so that this is why you can see
8 this piece of wall.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me --
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're getting --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would I see you -- if you would be standing there
12 at that moment this picture was taken, would I be able to see you?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Or would you be hidden behind --
14 THE WITNESS: I would be just behind -- just behind the corner.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was my question. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're getting to an aerial that might help.
18 Could we go to the next -- the next page, 56.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask, I see a lot of small items in front of
20 this white house. Could you tell us what that is.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is a Muslim graveyard --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, that's --
23 THE WITNESS: -- and all the abandoned things, all of the things
24 you see on the ground are abandoned material from this surrender process.
25 This picture was taken in early 1996 so everything was still on the
1 ground at that moment. So you have a lot of plastics from HCR, a lot of
2 personal items of little interest but among them also some of interest.
3 We collected IDs, we collected documents with names on them, matched them
4 with the missing list, and so on.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could be at 56.
8 Q. And what is this?
9 A. So this is an aerial picture of the area. On the following one
10 there will be the markings, but ...
11 Q. All right. Let's go to the --
12 A. [Overlapping speakers] ... be easier with the markings.
13 Q. Let's go to the markings. The next page, then.
14 A. No, you have one before with the yellow markings, sorry.
15 Q. Yes. There should be 57 on e-court.
16 A. Yes. Same explanation than previously. But based on this
17 aerial, going from the top of the picture, the dotted yellow line is the
18 path followed by those who were surrendering. The two-storey white house
19 is now pointed as the destroyed house. Just next to this house you would
20 see on the Zoran Petrovic video prisoners surrendering, one being ordered
21 to take off his T-shirt. This happens here. And when the people crossed
22 the asphalt road were taken to a meadow where they were regrouped. The
23 group of people the provider marked on the label is circled and
24 designated group of prisoners. I did the marking. And shows the
25 location of them.
1 I also pointed the three destroyed houses, since these are
2 features witnesses talk about.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask if we had the opportunity to see the
4 destroyed house in another picture which is on the left side of this
5 aerial image? The single house.
6 THE WITNESS: The little destroyed house we were talking for the
7 previous pictures? Are you talking about this --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is my question.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. We cannot see it because just at the left of
10 the one that I marked with an arrow as destroyed house and this small
11 structure is now under the arrow. It is just at the left of this
12 two-storage house. But this small structure, no one talks about it so I
13 never used it as any kind of reference point.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In yellow you described this house as destroyed
15 house. Is that the white house we have seen in the previous picture?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, the big one --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The big one, the white --
18 THE WITNESS: -- the two-storage one, yes --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You called it the white house.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Absolutely, yes, yes.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. We can go to the next aerial which gives a bit of a better
24 picture of it. It's 58 on e-court.
25 A. So this a blow-up in fact of the previous one. Since it
1 indicated group of people, you now know where they are, since they were
2 circled on the previous picture. And you can also see the asphalt road
3 and also the two-storage white house.
4 Q. How about the now infamous little house? Do you see where that
6 A. The picture is very blurry because it is getting closer. It's at
7 the left -- maybe ... yeah. At the left, you have a big tree and in fact
8 the big tree is hiding the little structure. But it's just at the left
9 at the angle of the big tree. Since the picture is taken during summer,
10 there are leaves on the tree. And on the other picture showing the grave
11 and the two-storage house, you have the tree but without leaves. This is
12 why you also perfectly see the little structure. And it's not taken from
13 the air, so it's not hidden.
14 Q. All right. And as we look at this photograph, were there
15 witnesses that were actually on this meadow that provided statements to
17 A. Yes, there were. Yes.
18 Q. Is that consistent with this conclusion that this is people on
19 this photograph?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. 59.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one further question.
23 Could you indicate where now the graveyard on this picture is in
24 relation to the house. Is it up or is it down, on the picture, of
1 THE WITNESS: It's up.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's up.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's up.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So we are looking now at --
5 THE WITNESS: Towards the south.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We are now looking towards the south. Yes. So
7 we're looking at the facade of the building which is not visible on the
8 big picture we saw before.
9 THE WITNESS: Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear to me.
11 Yes, please proceed.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. And if we can go to 59, the next photograph.
14 What is -- what is this?
15 A. So this picture was taken in 1997. But, as I told you, in 1996,
16 we searched the area, and on this area, we found a lot of abandoned
17 items, stretchers, ID cards, documents.
18 And if you take the picture of the left, it's very difficult to
19 make any assessment of numbers because the photograph is taken with an
20 angle and people are sitting on a slope so it's very hard to assess. But
21 the rough location that I narrowed down on purpose, not to make it larger
22 but smaller, is, in my opinion, the reference on the ground is now marked
23 with the yellow -- the yellow line which is the -- the location of this
24 group of people that we could see on the previous photograph. This is
25 now seen from the ground.
1 The following year it was a corn field, so ...
2 Q. All right. Now let's go to the next one. 60.
3 What is this?
4 A. This is the same view than the previous one indicating the
5 precise location of an event that can be seen in the Zoran Petrovic video
6 where, indeed, a group of people we believe are prisoners were sitting.
7 And at the moment of this film when it stops, this group of people are
8 sitting precisely where I boxed the photograph.
9 Q. So the -- the picture up in the left-hand corner, where is that
10 from? That still picture.
11 A. From the video taken on the spot by Zoran Petrovic.
12 Q. All right. Let's go back now briefly to the trial video, exhibit
13 65 ter 28780, from 19:23 to 20:12, V000-9267.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Do you know or recall who that is at 19:42:5?
17 A. Yes. The man that is called Boro is Colonel Borovcanin.
18 Q. Okay. And this -- okay. Let's continue.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 A. So now it's moving towards the group of people that we could see
21 on -- and now it's closing up on something that is going to happen but
22 then he is cutting his film.
23 Q. So is this the shot you have up in -- on your photo book?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Okay. And that's at 19:58:8. And -- all right. That's just
1 a -- we've slo-mo'd it so that it can be viewed in slow motion.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. All right. Now, your chapters change from regroupment to
5 execution area, south. And that is -- let's go to page 61 in e-court.
6 And we -- we see the blue dot at the far left at Luke school.
7 And then we see a red dot in Vlasenica, above Vlasenica. Can you tell us
8 the significance of these? Are these related?
9 A. Yes. The witness who claims having taken to Luke school after
10 having been separated prior -- attempting to cross at Kladanj said he was
11 taken on board of a little truck. He arrived at what he -- he describes
12 due to lamps at the side of the street as being the entrance of
13 Vlasenica. Vlasenica was the HQ of the Drina Corps. This truck turned
14 left and after a while of drive, bumpy drive, he claimed having escaped
15 at a location where there were already dead bodies. We attempted to find
16 this place. We even then brought him back to the location, and it was a
17 mission impossible to find any evidence of -- of execution or dead bodies
18 in this place. And we could not also find aerial imagery that could
19 assist us orient ourselves in this area which is very hard to investigate
20 in because everything looks a bit similar. Little hills, soft hills,
21 little valleys, impossible to -- to find without additional indication.
22 So, as I said, the missions were aimed to confirm or not. On
23 this case, we could not confirm the final stage of the story of this
24 witness by hard evidence.
25 Q. So the red dot, is that meant to be any particular location?
1 A. It's not a particular location. It's really an estimate of where
2 this could be. It's just north of Vlasenica. No additional info.
3 Q. All right. Let's continue on to the next site which is labelled
4 in your contents as "Cerska," and we see a red dot sort of between Cerska
5 and -- and the roads.
6 Can you tell us about this? Briefly.
7 A. Yes. The big hill I was referring to at one point is just
8 underneath, you know, Konjevic Polje, north of Nova Kasaba, and from this
9 hill witnesses were looking to find a way to -- to cross this area and,
10 in that process, observed a certain number of things, including for one
11 of them, he saw three buses entering the direction of the Cerska valley.
12 These buses were followed by an APC and -- an armoured personnel carrier,
13 and also a short time after that by an excavator. And once out of sight,
14 he could hear at some point intensive shooting coming from this valley.
15 Then the buses are leaving the area.
16 So there was an assumption of something happening in that place
17 that we tried to find using additional witnesses who didn't see what
18 happened but one walked on this -- on this path leading to the valley of
19 Cerska at one point stepped in a pool of blood. He was barefoot. But we
20 finally could have additional info by a group of other people who had
21 escaped, hid themselves at the -- at the end of this valley of Cerska,
22 and on their way back, because they didn't know how to -- how to leave,
23 they decided to return towards -- towards the Srebrenica area and at one
24 point smelled a very bad smell. And since we had filmed the entire way
25 of this valley from -- in all these directions by film, they could
1 indicate as some reference point from where then we could find the
2 location, because we made two missions there. The first mission was
3 unsuccessful, but the second one was.
4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next -- bearing in mind the map that we
5 see now and the location you're talking about, let's go to the next one.
6 Page 63, here.
7 And we see this -- what looks like a main road and your arrow.
8 Can you orient us again? Where is this main road going to, where's the
9 arrow going to?
10 A. The picture faces north. The big hill is out of the picture, out
11 of the frame at the right. The asphalt road at the bottom goes towards
12 Nova Kasaba. At the top, Konjevic Polje, and then either Bratunac,
13 either Zvornik. So the initial witness was out of this picture to the
14 right. The big hill.
15 Q. And the black arrow?
16 A. The black arrow is the path to enter the valley of Cerska, which
17 is in between the two hills we see at the left of the picture.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph, 64.
19 What's this?
20 A. So this is facing west. So now we can see the hill we always
21 talk about, the observation point, the observation hill. And the dirt
22 road leading to the entrance of the valley.
23 Q. Let's go to the next photo.
24 A. This is taken shortly before entering the valley. And after the
25 point where the first Humvee is seen on the picture, then you enter woods
1 and you are out of sight of the hill, which is also something that the
2 witness said, that at one point he couldn't see them anymore.
3 Q. Let's go to the next photo.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to compare the previous one,
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering whether -- and even the one
8 before that.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: 64. The one -- it would be 64 in e-court. There
10 we go.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now that road that we see in the picture going
12 from top to bottom and then turning to the left of the picture, is that
13 the beginning of the black arrow in the --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- previous page.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, it is the black arrow, indeed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So the first thick part of this line ending in a
18 thinner line with the black arrow, the first part, that is what we see --
19 and I'm just trying to --
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, where the Humvee is and the bridge.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the bridge is then approximately where the
22 thick line --
23 THE WITNESS: Is ending.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- is ending and where the thin line is starting.
25 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And then we see that the river on the -- both on the
2 previous and on this one is more or less visible because of the bushes on
3 both sides --
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, you are correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the river. Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
8 Q. I think we are now -- we should be. We've gone up that road and
9 now we're on 66 in e-court.
10 A. So this -- this picture is the suspect area we ended up finding.
11 Here, it is looking towards the entrance of the valley. This is
12 approximately, maybe 1 -- 1 -- let's -- not more than 2 kilometres inside
13 the valley. But we are now on this picture facing the entrance.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is that approximately where we saw the black arrow
15 previously? The point of the arrow.
16 THE WITNESS: No. No, no. It is further inside the valley. It
17 is -- it is roughly where I did put the red dot on the picture of
18 page 44.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, already a bit into the valley --
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. All right. Let's go to the next picture then. 67 in e-court.
24 A. This is another view of the same -- the same spot but looking in
25 the opposite direction. The vehicles are pointing their front towards
1 the entrance, but the picture is facing the direction of the end of the
2 Cerska valley, so it's ... so it is west.
3 Q. All right. Let's --
4 A. The -- still a little bit on this one, because we will see it
5 from other angles, where the colleague in blue is standing is an area we
6 will describe later as being the line of execution. And at the right of
7 the vehicles, you can see disturbed soil that we will mention later on
8 other pictures.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confused now. You say the end of the valley.
10 That means west. Now I see the picture with the vehicles. If the
11 vehicles are heading for the end of the valley, then the picture is
12 facing east.
13 THE WITNESS: No. The front of the vehicles are facing the
14 entrance and the back of the vehicles are facing the end of the valley.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: The --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I understand. Yes.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Okay. Let's continue to the next -- the next picture. 68.
21 What's this?
22 A. This is also now seen from another angle, since on the previous
23 one it was not possible to see, but it is a steep slope that is at the
24 edge of this road. It was not visible on the previous one. It looked
25 like flat, but in reality it is quite a steep slope. That in fact we
1 will see it contains the bodies.
2 Q. Let's go to the next picture then.
3 A. On that --
4 Q. Who are these folks? What are you doing?
5 A. So these are the colleagues I was with for this mission. And,
6 here, we are probing this area. It was a preliminary mission in order to
7 find out if there was a future need for any exhumation of that spot. And
8 here we are probing the area. We did a three, three probes, three holes
9 in order to check what was under this soil.
10 Q. If we go to the next photo. 70.
11 What's this?
12 A. As a result of the first probe, we discovered human remains that
13 are visible at the bottom of the picture. One can clearly see a leg and
14 a shoe on this one.
15 Q. If we could go to the next photo. 71.
16 A. This is the result of the second probe, the second hole. And,
17 here, you can see a skull with some hair attached on it.
18 Q. And the hole that we see?
19 A. The hole we see, I would not be able to say anything about it
20 because the probes, we start them by what we call -- we call pick and
21 sniff. That means take an iron stick, you push it in the soil to probe,
22 and then you take it out and you smell. Depending on the smell, you
23 start or not dig. So I cannot exclude that this hole is for sure not
24 maybe a bullet-hole but just a result of the probe.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to the next photo. 72.
1 A. So this is the -- the finding of the third hole that we dug,
2 which is a body in a civilian jacket. And at the left is the skull.
3 Q. All right. Let's now go to 74.
4 Sorry, 74 is the next one. Next page in e-court.
5 And we see another United States aerial image from the graphics.
6 What is this?
7 A. So this is a picture we requested after. Since we had found the
8 place, we wanted to know if we could have an indication of date of
9 creation of this crime scene. You can see, first the picture dated the
10 5th July. This is the path going toward the valley, going -- at the end
11 of the Cerska valley and the area that we probed. On 27 July, one can
12 see disturbed soil, disturbed earth. I circled the area, and with two
13 boxes, one being in fact the location of the grave, and the -- the box at
14 the right is disturbed soil from the -- the hill at the opposite side of
15 the path. We will provide more pictures of this from the ground.
16 But it indicates that at July 5th there was nothing there. And
17 on 27, the site is there. So the only conclusion is that it is between
18 the 5th and the 27th. We do not have -- I mean, at that time, we did not
19 have a -- I mean, at that time we did not have aside the witness
20 testimony and we had the feeling it was the 13. We had no precise
21 indication aside that. I heard that since then there is more precise
22 information to precisely date this event.
23 Q. All right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And these pictures are north/south?
25 THE WITNESS: These pictures are west oriented -- the top of the
1 picture is more or less the west. It's the end of the Cerska valley,
2 going towards the end of the Cerska valley .
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page. 75 in e-court?
5 A. So here is the -- the situation seen from the ground. Vehicles
6 pointing the front towards the entrance of the valley. At the right of
7 the picture is the -- the location of the grave. So obviously where the
8 yellow markers are was the line where the people were made to -- to
9 stand, shot, and fall along the steep hill.
10 At the left of the picture, the excavator that was seen by the
11 witness took the soil and then covered the bodies, simply covered them
12 with this soil. This is pointed by the big yellow arrow. And the two
13 colleagues at the left at this moment are collecting shell casings. I
14 couldn't recall exactly how many we collected that day. It was a
15 preliminary mission, but this is where the firing line was.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, if you say "facing the entrance of
17 the valley," we are in the valley now. That would mean facing east, is
18 that --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. And these yellow things on the ground, we see a 7 and a 6, what
23 is that for?
24 A. They mark the -- what at that moment is the estimate of the size
25 of the grave, so in fact the line on which the execution took place.
1 It's a rough estimate at that moment. But I would refer to -- later on
2 to a full exhumation report because this place was fully exhumed the
3 following year, I think.
4 Q. We have witnesses for that. Though, do you recall how many
5 bodies were found here?
6 A. Yes. 150. Which was our estimate, because we roughly counted
7 50 per bus, three buses, so we thought probably 150, and I think this is
8 more or less very precisely the final number.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: How are we doing for time? I can't see the
11 watch --
12 JUDGE ORIE: We are at one hour from when we resumed. So that
13 would be -- if this would be an appropriate moment --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: It would be.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- we'll take a break. And we'll resume at
16 ten minutes past 12.00.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 Meanwhile, again, I use the time to deal with MFI D189.
22 D189 was MFI'd during the testimony of Anthony Banbury, 7th of
23 February of this year, pending provision of the Defence of the B/C/S
24 translation. The Chamber has been informed by the Defence that the B/C/S
25 translation of Exhibit D189 has been uploaded in e-court under
1 doc ID 1D03-1002. The Chamber requests the Registry to attach this B/C/S
2 translation to the original and -- unless there would be any objections
3 by the Prosecution.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the person who is reviewing this is
5 unfortunately out for the remainder of this week. Could I suggest that
6 the Chamber go ahead with this, and if there's any problem with the
7 translation, we'll bring it to the attention of the Chamber on Monday.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D189 is admitted into evidence. And we
9 expect the Prosecution to re-visit the matter, well, let's say, within
10 two weeks if there would be any problem as far as this translation is
11 concerned so that we could reconsider it.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back, Mr. Ruez.
14 Mr. McCloskey will continue his examination-in-chief.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Just to finish up Cerska, can you confirm that there -- there was
17 no survivor of this execution?
18 A. Not of our knowledge.
19 Q. And there -- there was no witness, to your knowledge, of anyone
20 that witnessed the actual execution?
21 A. No one at my knowledge.
22 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next site, Nova Kasaba, which I
23 don't -- it's 76, the next e-court page. And you've noted that in red
24 there as we're now getting very familiar with these villages.
25 Can we go to the next page. 77.
1 And if you could briefly tell us what these boxes are.
2 A. Yes. The orientation here is the top right is going towards
3 Nova Kasaba. The bottom left towards Konjevic Polje.
4 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Ruez. I just want to interrupt. The -- unless
5 asked, I don't want to you explain about the red box because I don't
6 believe the Judges will be hearing any evidence about that. So if you
7 could -- the two big boxes, just concentrate on that unless asked.
8 A. These two boxes show area of undisturbed soil. The two black
10 Q. Okay. And then let's go to the next photo. That first one was
11 dated 13 July. Now we see this one on this page, 78, dated 27 July.
12 And -- and the big boxes, what does that indicate to you?
13 A. These are the -- the same areas of undisturbed soil photographed
14 13 July and on 27 July. One can see that there are obvious traces of
15 disturbance at these locations.
16 Q. And let's go to the next page.
17 Tell us about this.
18 A. The photographs at the top show how the ground looks like. And
19 the yellow circles indicate locations that we can see one on the aerial
20 imagery and the other one seen from the ground.
21 Q. And can you remind us, we see this road that we are probably
22 getting familiar with.
23 On -- which way -- which town is in the direction right, if you
24 can remember?
25 A. Yes, yes. But since the two pictures are taken from a different
1 direction, on the bottom, the bottom black and white picture, the aerial,
2 bottom right is the direction of Nova Kasaba. The left is the direction
3 of Konjevic Polje.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. At the top, the coloured picture, the right is the direction of
6 Konjevic Polje; the left, the direction of Nova Kasaba.
7 Q. Okay. And did you have a chance to probe this disturbed soil we
8 can see in this aerial image?
9 A. Yes, we did that in 1996, in June 1996.
10 Q. Let's go to page 80, the next page.
11 What's this?
12 A. So this is the result of the probe that we did that day. We
13 opened -- we opened this -- this site and found what we believed was a
14 first layer of bodies. On this picture, in fact, it's a [indiscernible]
15 of bodies but there are six bodies on this picture. The aim was, as
16 usual, to find multiple remains, since we cannot spark any exhumation if
17 there are not multiple remains. If there would be only one, it would be
18 of no -- no real interest. So this one was the preliminary check before
19 any further exhumation.
20 Q. Okay. I'd --
21 A. On the right, it's me; and on the left, it's another colleague.
22 Q. All right. And did you -- let's go to the next photo. I believe
23 you took close-ups of this picture. So that's 81 in e-court.
24 Is this a close-up of one of the people who was next to you in
25 the grave?
1 A. Yes. From the previous picture, he is the one who is close to my
2 boots. And here we can see the back of a man with his arms -- I mean,
3 wearing a civilian shirt with green stripes, and he has ligatures at his
4 wrists. The hands are tied in his back.
5 Q. That's the yellow arrow?
6 A. This is the yellow arrow, yes.
7 Q. Okay. The next picture.
8 A. This is another close shot of another body found in this
9 location. At the left, can you see his head. Then civilian jacket.
10 Q. Let's go to the next picture.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question.
12 The civilian jacket, as you tell us, seems to be -- well, pretty
13 clean, which surprises slightly. Was there any manipulation before this
14 photograph was taken, or was it cleaned or was it ...
15 THE WITNESS: We cleaned these bodies by hand.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm mainly talking about the jacket at
17 this moment.
18 THE WITNESS: The jacket, same thing. We took the soil that was
19 on top of it, we took it away.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But has it been removed, cleaned, and then
21 replaced or --
22 THE WITNESS: No, no. Not at all. No, no. We just opened this
23 first layer. Then refilled the hole as it was, waiting for the full
24 exhumation to take place. We didn't remove any item. We just cleaned
25 the soil on the surface, cleaned the soil off the bodies. The jacket was
1 not taken off this man at all.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you wipe it off --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- the dust and the --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. And would that be the same process you did at Cerska, so you just
9 exposed the bodies, photographed them, and then covered them up for later
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. Let's go -- well, we are at the next page.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was this the same body? We see a bit of the blue jacket that we
15 just saw.
16 A. It is the same one. What you see at the bottom right is a head
17 of another body which is underneath the body we saw. The interest of
18 this one is that -- it was visible on the previous picture but this one
19 has the hands attached in his back as well with -- with an iron -- not
20 iron. I mean, a metal, a metal rope which is very flexible metal and
21 that you can easily use to fix things but also attach people. This type
22 of metal is quite common in the area.
23 Q. So which yellow arrow is pointing at this -- what we would call a
25 A. Yeah, the wire is the left arrow.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And the right arrow points to the wedding ring of this man. It
3 is his finger, his fingers and a wedding ring.
4 Q. Now let's go to another of the sites that were thought to be or
5 reported to be possible execution sites, the Jadar river which we now --
6 is that site marked in red here?
7 A. On this photo -- yes, this is the location, the rough -- I mean,
8 the location of this next site.
9 Q. All right. And so if we just visualise that, that's that road
10 north going towards Zvornik that we've seen before.
11 So let's now go to 85. Another photograph we've seen before but
12 we now have this red arrow. What is that about?
13 A. So, first of all, the blue box points where the hangar in which
14 the -- the witness claims having been kept prior being put on board of
15 the bus. It happened at random that that day there was a bus just next
16 to this hangar but picture date was 1997. And the red arrows points the
17 direction towards which this bus would lead this group of 16 prisoners,
18 and it points to the entrance of -- it's a kind of canyon, in fact. It's
19 very, very narrow access to the Drina River that then leads towards
21 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo for that.
22 What does this tell us?
23 A. So this is a view of what I just said, narrow valley.
24 The -- it is pointing direction south here, so this is the
25 direction from where the bus came, then drove along this -- the road
1 going towards Zvornik in between these two steep hills.
2 Q. Just to be clear, the arrow is -- what direction is the red arrow
4 A. It's pointing towards Zvornik and towards the north.
5 Q. And can you describe to us those two lines we see underneath the
6 red line? It looks --
7 A. Yes. The first one is the asphalt road and the shiny line is the
8 Jadar river.
9 Q. All right.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first one means that one next to the red
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. All right. And so -- so I take it by this -- had -- have we hit
16 the spot yet that you were looking for on -- or we must continue up the
17 canyon towards Zvornik?
18 A. We have to continue a bit. [Indiscernible] bus-stop location
19 that we are going to hit first.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photo.
21 A. So this is just before arriving at the spot the prisoners were
22 unloaded. It's again to show what type of landscape it is and also
23 remote place. It's a remote place. It is quite well hidden, one can
25 JUDGE ORIE: And do we see the cars driving on the road which is
1 indicated on the previous picture by the dotted red line?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, and the vehicles are driving like the
3 bus would do it that day, towards the north.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in the direction of the arrow.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. All right. Now, like the last sites you've described, are you
9 looking for the site described by a particular witness?
10 A. Yes, indeed. Since it was in no way possible for us alone to
11 find the location, we had to bring the witness in the area. We did this,
12 we couldn't do it before. I think we did it 1998.
13 Q. All right. Let's -- let's go to the next -- the next shot, which
14 is 88.
15 Here we see a -- from the air, a tire of some sort?
16 A. Yeah. It's the tire of a Black Hawk helicopter. It's a picture
17 taken from the air. It shows the location where we stopped and which is
18 the so-called bus-stop. It's an area where in -- because of the narrow
19 road, it is an area where a bus can easily stop. It is where the witness
20 told us he was unloaded from the bus and walked towards the river, which
21 is the -- the arrow that I added to the picture is the access path to
22 what he claims being -- the execution spot.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And could we ask, in which direction is going to the
24 right top. Is that north? And to the left, further down, is that to the
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Top right is towards Zvornik. And the left
2 towards Konjevic Polje.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. All right. Can we go to the next photograph.
5 What is this?
6 A. This is the area where the witness brought us to, that he
7 recognised as being the -- the spot where he was made to stand facing the
8 river and among -- with the 16 others was shot.
9 We were at this moment trying to find shell casings in this
10 location. The -- we can only see the witness -- we can see his trousers.
11 Here, the man with black trousers. And we are at this moment looking for
12 shell casings there.
13 Q. Did you find any?
14 A. No. We couldn't implement the story of this witness. We
15 couldn't find any body. We couldn't find shell casings. But the
16 following picture might provide a possible explanation for that.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to 90.
18 A. He -- this witness claims that once he was shot, he -- he fell in
19 the water and succeeded to float on the river. Crossed the opposite side
20 and then gave other reference points that we found.
21 The thing is that since we did this search in 1998, we do not
22 know how this river flows, really, during spring, summer, winter time.
23 And, as you can see here, it seems that it happens that the water is
24 quite high. You can see these logs on the -- on the other bank of the
25 river. We had additional photographs with items hanging at quite a
1 height above the level of the water, so one could assume that the river
2 washed away shell casings. Maybe even bodies, if they were not
3 collected. It is very difficult to collect in such a place. I would not
4 believe that anyone went to collect the bodies here, but no one can say
5 for sure.
6 Q. Can you give us one example of -- of what you're able to confirm
7 from his -- his account after he was shot? Any locations, anything?
8 A. Yes. He says that, on the opposite side, there was a military
9 structure, and, indeed, very close by this place was the location of the
10 compound of the so-called Drina Wolves.
11 Q. And you -- did you find that yourselves -- yourself?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. But I mean, with the assistance of the intelligence we could
15 collect in the area.
16 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether or not you saw the -- a bullet-hole
17 in his back, or a photograph of it?
18 A. Oh, yes, indeed. I mean, he provided his medical -- medical
19 information. I won't say the name, but he even provides the name of the
20 police personnel who shot him.
21 Q. All right. Let's go onto the next one, which you've labelled the
22 Kravica warehouse. And there will be other numerous witnesses on this so
23 we do want to get through the basics of this, Mr. Ruez, to save a little
25 Let's start. We see the blue and red. Can you briefly describe
1 the blue and the red, how they relate to each other, Sandici?
2 A. Yes. The blue is the rough position of the meadow of Sandici we
3 showed previously, and the right spot is the also approximate location of
4 the Kravica warehouse.
5 The next photograph will show that the distance is very -- a
6 short distance.
7 Q. Let's go to that. 93.
8 And orient us with this, could you?
9 A. Mm-hm. The picture is facing the direction towards Bratunac. I
10 am -- I take -- I took this picture at the left of this two-storage
11 building and the little structure we talked about. So it's a clear view
12 towards the warehouse. The Sandici meadow is at the left of the picture
13 out of frame, it's in my back at the left, and the dotted arrow points to
14 the Kravica warehouse.
15 Q. Let's go to the next shot.
16 And, again, orient us which direction is Bratunac and which is
17 Konjevic Polje?
18 A. Top left of the picture is direction Bratunac. And, here, it's a
19 helicopter view. Just at the bottom left of the picture but also just --
20 in fact, just at the limit of the picture is the meadow, the Sandici
21 meadow. But this gives you a clear indication of the distance, since one
22 group -- I mean, one survivor says he was taken on board of the bus and
23 then another group was taken by foot. This is the distance.
24 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot. 95.
25 Again, which -- which way is Bratunac?
1 A. The blue arrow points the direction of Bratunac. So the people
2 were coming from the right where the Sandici meadow is. Only one -- one
3 building of this warehouse complex was used for this event. It's the one
4 that is along the side of the road, and it is marked with the red box.
5 Q. And did you -- are you getting your information about this
6 warehouse from two survivors?
7 A. Indeed, yes. Two survivors. One from the east part and one from
8 the west part. The west being the left picture and the east, right.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. No, sorry. It's the opposite. Because we are facing south here.
11 Mm-hm. We are not facing the north. We are facing south. So Bratunac
12 is at the left, east.
13 Q. There will be a test on these geographic locations afterward, but
14 we have that ready for you later.
15 All right. Let's go to the next photograph. 96.
16 The snow is back.
17 A. Yes. But to get pictures at a date as close as possible to the
18 events, this is a stop that we made during the so-called Shattuck mission
19 at the end of January 1996. We made a stop at the warehouse in order to
20 take some photographs and use the opportunity also to scratch a sample of
21 what we found on the walls.
22 Q. All right. Let's see the next page. We can see what that meant.
23 And what is this? It seems the other side of the warehouse.
24 A. Yes. The photographs of January, it's to match with the aerials
25 so that we can determine, you know, the story about the east part and the
1 story about the west part.
2 Q. Is this tied in to the location of the two victims you were
3 talking about?
4 A. All the information on this place is -- everything is coming from
5 these two survivors.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page. 93.
7 And we see -- again, it looks look that nice green aerial from
8 perhaps your helicopter?
9 A. Yes, yes, absolutely. And it is to show by comparing it with the
10 black and white aerial photographs that were the better -- better version
11 of how it looks, really, on the ground.
12 Q. All right. So that's another US aerial image dated 13 July.
13 And you have circled in yellow what?
14 A. In yellow, I circled two buses. The -- the witness who claims
15 having survived an execution on this east part said he was taken there by
16 bus. And apparently one bus after that stayed blocked on the spot
17 because of a flat tire.
18 Q. All right. Let's go to the next shot.
19 This appears to be a similar shot --
20 A. Yes. So now we are going to deal with the west part. So this
21 survivor in the west part was marched there within a large group. They
22 arrived at this warehouse and entered through a small -- a small door,
23 which is most certainly the door which is at the -- at the left of the
24 squared box.
25 Q. I think you can mark on this -- just -- I'm not sure -- there's a
1 lot of potential doors. Could you mark the door you're talking about?
2 A. You want me to mark the one?
3 Q. I --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or clearly explain which door you're referring
5 to. That's --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. On the square box there is one big hole which
7 was made by a bulldozer --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- before we start marking, if the witness can
9 explain to us to which he -- to what he refers, then -- is it the opening
10 at the right-hand side --
11 THE WITNESS: No, it should be the one at the left.
12 JUDGE ORIE: At the left which is composed of three separate or
13 even four separate -- or is it the small, the lower one. Yes. It's
14 marked now.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has been marked. Then I take it that --
17 THE WITNESS: Sign it? I have to put my initials on it?
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, not necessarily. But we have to separate it
19 and --
20 Now may I take it that we do not want the whole of the book --
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- attached to this marking.
23 Madam Registrar, is there any way to separate this page as marked
24 by the witness?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, we can save it separately as a
1 marked photo.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And that would receive number?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1129, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there's any need for any other markings on
5 this one, Mr. McCloskey, P -- and let me now make no mistake. P1129 is
6 admitted into evidence.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: What would be the 65 ter number of this P or -- or
8 the --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar has separated it so there's no
10 65 ter number yet.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As the same number the -- as the saved picture,
12 they receive IC numbers.
13 JUDGE ORIE: They receive IC numbers.
14 Mr. McCloskey, I was informed when you referred to page 93 on
15 page 66, line 8, you apparently wanted to refer to -- I don't know
16 whether you did it or whether it was someone else's slight error, but
17 it's 98 from what I understand.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I take your word for that, of course.
19 And I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's to avoid that others -- let me -- I'll check in
21 e-court immediately. That's ... let me see. 93, 98.
22 What we have on our screen now. Let me just check.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the record it says:
24 "Let's go to the next page, 93."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what we have now on our screen is -- it
1 seems to be page 99 in e-court out of 274.
2 That's what we see on our screen now. And that is also the
3 separate page which was marked by the witness.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- I think I read the 8 as a 3, and ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps. And then, finally, it turned out that it
6 should be 99.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
9 Q. Now we were -- you were talking about the account of the victim.
10 The door he said. You identified the door that you thought may have been
11 the door he went into, and did you go inside and see if you could
12 determine anything inside that matched his story or resembled his story?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what were you looking for in there when you went inside the
15 warehouse to -- what was his basic -- very briefly, his story that you
16 were seeing if you could find?
17 A. Due to his account of events, we were looking mainly for
18 bullet-holes, explosive traces, and blood and what was human features
19 that could be found in it.
20 During the very first visit, the only thing that I could do was
21 scratch suspect -- suspect trace from the wall which appeared to be
22 human, and then we returned during several missions to take more samples
23 of all these elements. And there was then a full -- a full forensic
24 examination done of this place. There is a full report on what was found
25 in this location.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Mr. McCloskey, sorry to deal with the matter
3 When you said, page 66, line 8, "93," you should have said "98."
4 Then page 66, line 20, you said, "Let's go to the next shot," that then
5 is page 99 in e-court. And it is page 99 which was separated and marked
6 and was separately admitted.
7 Where I said 98 should be 99, we had already moved to the next
8 page. That -- should that be -- I would like to make life easier for
9 anyone who comes after us.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, yes. This sequence is critical as --
12 of course.
13 Q. All right. So let's go into the warehouse. The next page,
14 e-court 100.
15 A. So this is a photograph from the inside of this west part of the
16 warehouse. One can see quite a number of bullet-holes in -- in the
17 walls. And the traces, you can see the rubbed traces and various reddish
18 material there appeared to be tested as human blood. Also human hair and
19 things like skin.
20 Q. Let's go to the next one. 101.
21 A. Yeah, so it's the -- another -- another area of the warehouse
22 with black traces that happened to -- being explosive residues. And
23 again, a certain number of human features glued on the wall.
24 Q. All right. Now let's go to 102.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask what does the number 9 in the previous
1 photograph depict?
2 THE WITNESS: Oh. Yes, on -- on the -- there are indeed labels
3 on this wall. We had with us a crime scene technician named John Gerns
4 who took samples and labelled them according to his own way of doing.
5 This sampling was also a kind of a preliminary step in case we would not
6 be able to return to this area or that the place would be destroyed, so
7 each time we did as much as we could during a very short period of time
8 in the area. It was always go in, go out. We couldn't spend time on
9 these places for security reasons also.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But what does the number 9 indicate?
11 THE WITNESS: He took a sample at that location and labelled it
12 9. But I don't have his report --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the matter.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just follow up. Does that explain the 11
15 on the previous picture?
16 THE WITNESS: Indeed.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And then on this picture, in small figures, you
18 also have 1, 2 and 3, or what looks like minus 1, minus 2, minus 3, and
19 then minus something that I can't see. What do those indicate?
20 THE WITNESS: This is the labelling that John Gerns did of his
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. All right. Let's go now to the next page. 102.
25 Where does this fit into anything?
1 A. The -- the survivor claims that once he entered the warehouse,
2 shots were -- bursts of fire were coming from the -- the open windows and
3 grenades were thrown inside. We tried to check this part of his story
4 during a search of the surroundings of the warehouse, found elements
5 including a live grenade that was obviously forgotten there. It was just
6 in front of the warehouse close to the road.
7 Q. I hope that's not in the evidence locker.
8 A. It is not. It was handed over for destruction.
9 Q. Thank you. The next page. 103.
10 A. So this is one of grenade handles that we found at the back of
11 the warehouse.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to --
13 A. It is what is left over once the grenade is thrown. This piece
14 of metal stays there at the location it has been thrown. It is something
15 left behind of the grenade, hand-grenade.
16 Q. Okay. 104.
17 Do you have any idea what this is?
18 A. I thought we would take them out but since they are here, it's no
19 certainty but he -- the witness said also that RPGs were fired from the
20 outside to inside. This could be - I just say "could be" - a hole made
21 by an anti-tank rocket.
22 The next picture shows it a bit better with the direction of
23 possible firing from the window.
24 Q. 105, then, please, next.
25 Is this from the inside or outside?
1 A. This is from the outside at the back of the warehouse. The
2 window is facing the direction of the asphalt road.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 106.
4 A. The survivor of the west part of the warehouse claimed that once
5 he entered the -- the warehouse, he -- people were compressed inside, and
6 the reason why he managed to survive is that he crawled into a little
7 structure inside the warehouse that he calls the -- a guard house. It's
8 a -- it was a -- a room inside this location.
9 The first time we went there, the first mission, in January,
10 there was nothing like this inside, so it was a problem because no
11 explanation how he could have survived with all this. But, in fact,
12 returning there in April, the next picture will show that just at the --
13 at the entrance, indeed, once inside, there was -- there was something
14 there that had been destroyed in -- probably in the process of taking the
15 bodies out with heavy equipment and the traces of it are extremely
17 Q. Can you tell us -- I'll go to that. But what's this yellow arrow
18 on the current photo?
19 A. The arrow marks the direction of entering and the location where
20 this little structure was supposed to be.
21 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 107.
22 A. So this is what -- I believe is what is left of so-called guard
23 house inside. One can see that at the bottom there was a room here with
24 a -- a blue -- the blue tiles at the bottom and the points where this
25 structure was attached to the wall. It obviously has been completely
2 Q. All right. Let's go to 108.
3 Where is this and what -- what is it?
4 A. There -- there was a little pile of rubbish at the -- at one of
5 the sides of this warehouse. We went through a manual search of this
6 rubbish, and this is what we could -- we could find. There are shell
7 casings, a piece of licna karta, certain number of human bones. They
8 were assessed as being human by Professor Bill Haglund. And a few items,
9 including fake teeth, that was left behind by those who cleaned the area.
10 Q. Let's go to 109.
11 A. So after -- after the execution at the west part took place the
12 execution at the east part, according to the person who survived this
13 part, who heard the noises of the first row of killings.
14 Q. Okay. And so --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If you could just -- I'm sorry to interrupt,
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 If we just go back to previous picture with collections of shell
19 There are things that look like books there. Are you able to
20 tell us what they are?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's the cover page of a licna karta. Licna
22 karta is the ID card. But there were no names in -- in these. It's only
23 the --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: The cover.
25 THE WITNESS: -- the cover.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. All right. So 109 was identifying the -- the other side of the
4 warehouse for the next survivor who you've just explained his account
6 And let's go to 110. What is this?
7 A. So this is a photograph of this east part taken from the
8 entrance. So this is supposed to be the area where the people were
9 stored, sitting -- sitting with this wall in their back.
10 Q. And --
11 A. And --
12 Q. Just --
13 A. -- one can see traces of bullets fired against this wall.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 111.
15 You've got a yellow arrow you've marked?
16 A. Yes. Unfortunately, during the process of this warehouse by the
17 forensic experts, they processed only one part of the warehouse and
18 forgot the other part. So, at one point, I passed again by this
19 warehouse and scratched a sample marked with the yellow arrow which is
20 a -- looks like a blood-stain, and this was analysed by the Dutch
21 forensic lab as being human blood.
22 Q. Let's go to 112.
23 Is this related to the previous picture?
24 A. Yes, it's a close-up of this blood-stain.
25 Q. All right. Let's go to 113.
1 We're still at that site of the warehouse. We see you put a
2 yellow arrow.
3 A. Yeah. The -- the witness says that he climbed to jump out of the
4 window at the back of the warehouse, the first window, and the arrow
5 points to the window that he is supposed having jumped through.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 114.
7 What's this?
8 A. This is a view of the back of this warehouse. The first window
9 when you go towards the left is the window from where he says having
10 jumped. He -- there was a corn field at that time, and, indeed, behind
11 the warehouse what you can see, the little sticks, it's leftover of corn.
12 Now, it's a view of the location he says having escaped.
13 Q. To be clear, if we start from the right side of the photo we're
14 looking at and move towards the left, is -- is it that first --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- one we come to?
17 A. The first one going from left to right.
18 Q. With a white reflection of some sort in it?
19 A. Of snow.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go to the next one. 115.
21 A. So this is a view of the front of the warehouse. No -- no
22 specific claim of survivors for this one. But in order to show that this
23 man was probably not the only one who tried to survive by escaping,
24 jumping windows, I could find an element that assists.
25 Q. So what are you --
1 A. [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 Q. What are focussing on in this picture?
3 A. On this one, I would mark it with the pen, there is a shoe
4 trace --
5 Q. That sort of complicates things --
6 A. Okay. Just underneath the window that is in the middle of the
7 picture, above the first bullet-hole underneath is a shoe trace. We have
8 a close-up on the next picture.
9 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next picture. 116.
10 A. So it's a shoe trace, but it's a reverse shoe. It's not the shoe
11 of someone who is climbing; it is of a shoe of someone who is getting
12 out. Interest of it is again to show that this witness is -- might not
13 be the only one who tried to escape by jumping out through the windows.
14 Q. So is the window we saw in the previous photo right above this --
15 the shoe print?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now let's go to 117.
18 We see Studio B again. So I take it this is a Petrovic --
19 what is -- what is this?
20 A. This is a still from a few seconds of footage filmed by
21 Zoran Petrovic who arrived on that spot on July 13 together with
22 Colonel Borovcanin. These are part of the, in brackets, lost pictures
23 that were found later. And it shows -- the main -- the main entrance,
24 the one that was then partially destroyed by a bulldozer who entered the
25 warehouse to pick out -- take out the bodies.
1 Q. And where do you get that account from that a bulldozer came to
2 take out bodies?
3 A. From the witness who survived in this location and stayed there
4 during several hours prior escaping by night-time.
5 Q. And what do you use this photo for in your -- in your book
6 analysis? If we go -- the previous -- excuse me, the next line of
7 photos, you have a particular purpose for this, I believe.
8 A. Yes. It was mainly relevant for the trial of Colonel Borovcanin.
9 It's much less, to be honest, here. The question was, was this execution
10 finished or was it still ongoing. According to analysis made on these
11 walls, I tend to believe that it was ongoing since they are -- after this
12 shot, this picture, there are additional bullet-holes to be found on the
13 walls, so one could think that someone later on fired on this wall. This
14 is not the case. It would mean that there were still shots fired after
15 this piece of footage.
16 Q. All right. Let's briefly go back to the trial video, exhibit
17 65 ter 28780, from 35:00 to 36:55, V000-9267, to play this -- this clip.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
20 Q. We've ended that clip at 36:55:6.
21 Is that slow motion clip where you took your still from, if we
22 could go back to 117 in e-court of your book.
23 So we -- we see this. Is this the Kravica warehouse you've been
24 talking about?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And is that basically a still of the -- of what we just saw, the
2 drive-by of the warehouse?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And can you remind us what direction is the car driving in as
5 it's driving by? We can see this pictures pass.
6 A. So from the right to the left, so going back to the direction of
8 Q. All right. Now let's go through these next shots briefly. Let's
9 go to 118.
10 And if you could just explain what this was about.
11 A. Just to show that the -- this door again was broken by some heavy
12 equipment. One year later, they started reconstructing a part of it, but
13 these markings in blue, I'm not the one who put them on it. They don't
14 fit with the demo. Again, we could -- if you want, in a bit of time, go
15 to bullet-hole if there is still a need for this demonstration.
16 Q. No, I think we should just go through this --
17 A. I won't go through the blue ones. I didn't put them and I don't
18 agree with them.
19 Q. Okay. Don't know where they came from.
20 So let's go to the next page. 119.
21 A. So in red is the missing part. The missing part is -- is bigger
22 than what one could think just by looking at the picture at the bottom.
23 And depending on the angle as well as -- the height, as well as the --
24 the -- how large it is, looks also a bit different. The references are
25 the yellow markings with the round circles that put in relation the
1 situation after and before the destruction.
2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
3 A. Of interest it's to show the height of the way the openings were
5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
6 A. So, here, you have what I believe was the -- the way the
7 situation was looking at the time, what it was -- the size of this
9 At the bottom of the picture, at the bottom right, you can see
10 one bar next to the door. That's -- from top to -- bottom from top, the
11 bar next to the right of the frame. And on the picture, the big one, I
12 had to re-put this bar with the computer to show where it was.
13 So it shows again what were the missing parts of this.
14 Q. All right. Let's go on to 122.
15 A. Okay. So, here, it puts the -- puts the two pictures in
16 relation. It is more or less the same but still at the bottom right is
17 not exactly, I think, the one we saw before. It's another angle. Never
19 Q. Okay. 123.
20 A. So at the moment of the events when Zoran Petrovic filmed the
21 place, at the top, on the right, there are -- there is a marking with
22 bullet-holes and also at the left of the picture in the red box are
23 locations of -- of impacts.
24 Q. And -- and to be clear, the top photograph is from the Petrovic
1 A. The one at the top which has the logo Studio B is the one from
2 the Zoran Petrovic film.
3 Q. From 13 July?
4 A. Yes, from 13 July. And the bottom one is taken in April 1996.
5 Q. And what does this comparison tell us?
6 A. The next picture should show it.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to 124.
8 A. It shows here that there are additional pockmarks in April 1996
9 that were not on the wall at the time Zoran Petrovic filmed the film.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I -- looking at the book, we seem to
11 be close to concluding a certain portion.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to take the break once we are there. I
14 don't know whether we are there yet or ...
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. This is precisely it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- could the witness first be escorted
17 out of the courtroom.
18 We take a break of 20 minutes.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume at 22 minutes -- no, 27 minutes
21 past 1.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 Meanwhile, I will deliver a brief oral decision.
1 It is about the Defence's request for certification.
2 On the 13th of March, 2013, the Chamber's confidential decision
3 on the Defence motion seeking adjustment of modalities of trial was filed
4 and also distributed that same day to the parties. Pursuant to
5 Rule 73(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence a party shall file any
6 requests for certification within seven days of the filing of the
7 decision in question.
8 The Defence filed a confidential motion for certification of the
9 said decision on the 21st of March, 2013. This motion was filed one day
10 too late. Pursuant to Rule 127(A), a Chamber may, on good cause being
11 shown by a motion, vary the time-limits prescribed by the Rules. In this
12 particular instance, considering that no good cause has been argued by
13 the Defence, the Chamber does not recognise the Defence request for
14 certification as validly filed.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You may continue, Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, we are now moving into your chapter of
19 the -- Bratunac, where you have -- speak of and provide information from
20 the investigation on some of the areas in Bratunac.
21 So let's go to your book. 125 on e-court. 105 of the actual
22 book. Again, we now see an aerial image. 12 July. With your yellow
23 marks on it. And can you -- now, we have not heard much about Bratunac
24 as yet, but could you just briefly go over the markings why -- and, very
25 briefly, why you found these particular sites at all relevant to the
2 A. Indeed, this is an overview of Bratunac dated 12 July. I put the
3 markings on the -- on this, in order to point locations that are indeed
4 relevant to the investigation, according to the various events and
5 testimonies connected with Bratunac. It also shows the size of this
6 small town and how close these locations are, each from another.
7 So the football field but mainly the detention spots which are
8 the Vuk Karadzic school, the hangar behind this Vuk Karadzic school, and
9 another school which is a technician school but the people referred to it
10 as being the old school. The Vihor company compound which is a feature
11 described by witnesses as being the -- a location where line of buses was
12 lined in front but also the location of the SDS office as well as
13 Hotel Fontana where meetings took place during these days.
14 Q. And the SDS office, do you recall what particular witness or
15 former witness that had to do with?
16 A. Yes. This was the office of a person I met many times during a
17 number of years who was -- his name was Miroslav Deronjic.
18 Q. All right. Now let's go to the next -- next page. 126.
19 Tell us about this.
20 A. So this is the -- the main -- one of the main spots of
21 concentration of prisoners seen from the ground.
22 At the -- completely at the left is the back of the Vuk Karadzic
23 school. The -- the building next to it, to the right, the -- the white
24 wall is the gym of this Vuk Karadzic school. At its right is the hangar,
25 a location one witness claims having been detained into. And completely
1 at the right is the old school.
2 Q. All right. And those had been previously marked on that aerial
3 image, I believe.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Let's go to your next page. 127.
6 Again, we see some red markings. And -- but, first of all, this
7 one doesn't have a date. Did -- in the date box. Were you able to do
8 that or is that something that came from the provider?
9 A. No. I -- I erased the date because the markings on it are
10 artificial so they are not the ones of the provider. But this is the --
11 this shows the red circle, the area of hard construction we just went
12 through, and the red lines are my assessment of where the lines of buses
13 and trucks were staying during the night of 12 and the 13, according to
15 There is one more line of buses like this. This is according to
16 the testimonies of -- of witnesses who stayed on board of buses during
17 that night. One in front of -- of the Vihor compound, at the bottom.
18 One in front of the Vuk Karadzic school, in the middle. One also -- it's
19 out of the picture, but it's in front of the Bratunac Brigade. And there
20 is one further at the exit of town.
21 Q. All right. Let's go back -- sorry to go back, but just to 125
23 And this, the provider has marked as 12 July. And could you go
24 to the area just above the Hotel Fontana. Yes, and if that could be
25 blown up one more time.
1 Do you see an area above your Hotel Fontana area which appears to
2 be a line of vehicles? Can you make any -- any sense of that for
3 12 July?
4 A. Yeah, this is the bus station of Bratunac. It's the area where
5 the buses were assembled prior the deportation of the population, of the
7 Q. All right. Then let's continue. There's -- let's go -- we're
8 going to skip ahead of one other picture of Bratunac. That's at 274 of
9 e-court. It's the last page in the actual book. It's another aerial
10 image of Bratunac at a different angle.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If you could just flip it around so that we can
12 read the -- you get a bit dizzy looking at this photograph. But, all
13 right. Yeah, is there a way to get the whole picture on the screen?
14 Well, that may do it for Mr. Ruez's --
15 Q. Can you tell us what is a bit different about this photograph and
16 what it depicts than the last one?
17 A. This one is, in fact, the one that we could keep because this one
18 shows everything. The directions are easy to find. Potocari,
19 Konjevic Polje, Ljubovija, Serbia. It's where the so-called iron bridge
20 is and where Colonel Karremans is on film. I don't know if this film
21 will be shown. When the battalion left the area.
22 But then in the middle where all of the features are, again, the
23 old school, the hangar, the Vuk Karadzic school, here is added also the
24 mayors's office, the location of the police station. We have again the
25 SDS, Hotel Fontana and Vihor company.
1 On this picture are marked the location where the witnesses say
2 they were on board of buses. The one in front of Vihor, the one in front
3 of the Vuk Karadzic school. One bus in front of the HQ of the Bratunac
4 Brigade. And --
5 Q. Can we --
6 A. -- if you go down the picture that is on the screen. Yeah, the
7 one Bratunac Brigade. And then more down, at the exit of town was also a
8 line of buses.
9 Q. All right. So this --
10 A. This is the situation at the end of the day of ... I don't want
11 to say something wrong.
12 Q. Don't -- don't worry. This -- this photograph --
13 A. This is the situation at the moment where the maximum of
14 prisoners were inside. So it's the 13, in the evening of the 13th. This
15 is the situation on the evening of the 13.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And when and by whom was this picture taken?
17 THE WITNESS: In fact, this picture is -- was given to me by an
18 American officer. I think they use it for their own purposes, and we
19 rephotographed. I think it was a poster-size document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But now I know who gave it to you, but my question
21 was when was it taken?
22 THE WITNESS: Ah, when was it taken. I -- I could not say.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does this mean that it is rather the -- it's,
24 rather, the text added which pretends to reflect the situation at the end
25 of the 13th of July and not necessarily to be taken on the 13th of July?
1 THE WITNESS: No. This picture was certainly not taken the 13.
2 I would assume that -- I don't know. I cannot say anything about the
3 date of this picture. But all the features on this picture existed in
4 July 1995.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And as presented here, especially buses,
6 depict the situation at the end of the 13th of July.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. When the town, as we will see, will be the
8 main area --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, that answers my question.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. And this photograph, unlike the others, clearly shows the
13 Bratunac Brigade headquarters?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. All right. Let's -- let's go back to our -- to your book
16 and the chapter that you refer to as: Executions, north. Alleged
17 executions, north.
18 So that is starting at page 128 in e-court.
19 And if we go north on your map graphic, we see a yellow -- a
20 yellow target near a town -- perhaps we could blow that up so we can --
21 this is the area we're focussing on. Thank you.
22 A. Mm-hm.
23 Q. What's the significance of this?
24 A. So the first prisoners to be evacuated from Bratunac were
25 evacuated around midnight, the night between the 13 and the 14. And the
1 first location where these people were taken to was a school at Grbavci,
2 which is just north of Zvornik, approximately 60 -- 50 kilometres north
3 of Srebrenica. They arrived there, according to what they say, the 14th.
4 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page.
5 And this you've labelled Grbavci and gym. What's this?
6 A. This is an aerial view of the school to which four witnesses
7 claimed having been kept inside. The school is the building with the
8 black roof and the gym is the building next to it with the red roof.
9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 130.
10 Is this the same snowy trip date you've spoken of before,
11 January 1996?
12 A. Yes, indeed. This is end of January 1996.
13 Q. And what are we looking at?
14 A. People said that when they were taken out of the buses they had
15 to drop their belongings here and walked next to a fence to enter the gym
16 through a little door. This photograph was shown to these people who
17 recognised the location.
18 Q. All right. And let's go to the next one. 131.
19 A. Those we talked with said they had been kept inside the gym that
20 they described as having small windows on one side, big windows on the
21 other one. And this is of the view of the inside with the entrance door
22 to the gym. And as they exited this gymnasium, they went through the
23 wardrobe and this is the exit of the gym through the wardrobe.
24 Q. And where you have "exit," did that appear to resemble the
25 account of the victims?
1 A. We showed photographs to them that they said were similar to the
2 location they had been kept inside.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. 132.
4 What is this?
5 A. The persons who were kept said that since they were very -- it
6 was crowded and when they were talking, it was noisy, and when it was
7 noisy, the guards fired shots in the air, so there was a need to check if
8 there were any possible bullet-holes. And there were indeed some to be
9 seen at the ceiling. So this is a photograph of -- of what I believe is
10 a bullet-hole in the -- in the ceiling of this gym.
11 Q. Okay. 133.
12 A. These are -- this is one side of the -- of the gym, seen from the
13 inside, the windows that were recognised by the witnesses.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one. And what part of the
15 building is this?
16 A. This is a closer shot, closer photograph of one of these windows
17 with suspect marks on it that could match the fact that shots were fired
18 in this place. But not to shoot at anyone, just to have the people stay
20 Q. Let's go to the next photo. 135.
21 And where is this in relation to the gym?
22 A. So this is the playground of the gym. The orange wall is the
23 school. The white structure with the door at the left is the wardrobe
24 through which the people were taken by little groups. A truck was parked
25 in front of this door which has a gate on the photograph, and they --
1 they climbed into the truck from this -- from this spot. And in the
2 middle is a pile of rubbish that we searched. This was in April 1996.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page. 136.
4 What's this?
5 A. So among this pile of rubbish, we found items that we believed be
6 of interest. Shell casings, indeed, but mainly cloth that, in our
7 opinion, are to be used as blindfolds, since the people claimed that when
8 they stepped out of the gym in the wardrobe, they were given a sip of
9 water and blindfolded before being put on board of the trucks. On the
10 very first visit at the end of January, there were a few of these
11 blindfolds inside the gym. In April they were no longer inside the gym,
12 but we found some in this pile of rubbish which then later were compared
13 with similar types of blindfold -- cloth found in the grave.
14 Q. And that is the subject of an expert report?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page, just very briefly. 137.
17 I don't -- what is this area? Just --
18 A. It was supposed to be skip. It is again the exit door, but this
19 was taken, if I remember well, I think in 1997, and in 1997, this door
20 was totally sealed.
21 Q. All right. Let's now --
22 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, it's not objection of my learned friend.
23 But it's something we agreed yesterday if there is a need for Mr.
24 Mladic --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, for a short break.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We -- this witness is not aware of that, but we now
3 and then have to take a very short break of a couple of minutes, so that
4 break can be taken now.
5 We stay in the courtroom.
6 [The accused withdrew]
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic, any objection if I would read
10 a decision on the admission of the report of Mr. Van der Weijden.
11 MR. LUKIC: Of course not, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, the accused is not present at this
14 Then I will deliver that decision, which is a decision on the
15 admission of the report of Witness Patrick van der Weijden.
16 By notice of the 19th of November, 2012, the Prosecution served
17 Witness Van der Weijden's report on the Defence. By notice of the
18 19th of December, 2012, the Defence objected to its admission.
19 In a decision of the 9th of January, 2013, the Chamber,
20 inter alia, deferred its decision on the admission of the report until
21 the time of Witness Van der Weijden's testimony. Witness Van der Weijden
22 testified before the Chamber on the 10th and the 11th of January of this
23 year. Following the conclusion of the witness's testimony, the Defence
24 and the Prosecution made supplementary oral submissions regarding the
25 admission of the report.
1 The Defence submits that the methodology used in preparing the
2 report is not transparent in that, first, the witness has not identified
3 with sufficient particularity all of the source material upon which he
4 relied, and, second, the witness relied on sources obtained from the
5 Internet and military manuals which were not identified in the report and
6 were not made available to the Defence.
7 In response, the Prosecution submits that the report contains
8 adequate references to the source material. Further, the Prosecution
9 suggests that any issues as regards references to source material go to
10 the weight to be afforded to, and not the admissibility of, the report.
11 In relation to sources which the witness could not fully identify when
12 asked about them during his testimony, the Prosecution contends that
13 these related to Unscheduled Incidents only. In relation to the use of
14 Internet sources and military handbooks, the Prosecution submits that
15 these sources form but a part of the witness's knowledge and are, in
16 effect, subsidiary to his substantial experience as a sniper and sniping
18 The Chamber considers that the report contains adequate
19 references to written source material. The witness also testified that
20 some of the material - for example, regarding the weaponry available to
21 the VRS - was based on his personal observations at VRS check-points
22 during his time with DutchBat in the former Yugoslavia. The Chamber
23 considers that in referring to sources from the Internet and military
24 manuals, the witness was explaining the basis for part of his knowledge,
25 in addition to the knowledge he had accumulated from his direct
1 experience as a sniper and sniping instructor. The Chamber considers
2 that, on the whole, the report meets the minimum standards of reliability
3 as required under Rule 89(C) and 94 bis of the Rules of Procedure and
5 The report is therefore admitted into evidence. The Chamber
6 underlines that the admission of the report is distinct from its
7 evidential weight which the Chamber will determine in due course when
8 assessing the totality of the evidence.
9 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
10 Then, since we may still have some time I will read another oral
11 decision. The Chamber will deliver its decision on the Prosecution's
12 urgent motion to add five documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list to
13 tender through Witness RM048 and Witness RM013.
14 On the 14th of February of this year, the Prosecution filed an
15 urgent motion to add five documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list to
16 tender through Witness RM048 and Witness RM013.
17 On the 18th of February, the Prosecution put on the record that
18 it no longer wished to tender four of the documents through RM048 but
19 retained its request to add them to the Rule 65 ter exhibit list along
20 with the fifth remaining document to be added to the list and to be
21 tendered through Witness RM013.
22 In court on the 19th of February, 2013, the Chamber granted the
23 addition of the document bearing Rule 65 ter number 28736 to the
24 Rule 65 ter exhibit list and the request to tender it through
25 Witness RM013, who was scheduled to testify within a matter of days.
1 Thus, the Chamber will now decide on the addition of the four remaining
2 documents to the Rule 65 ter exhibit list.
3 The Defence maintains its original objections on the ground of
4 lack of good cause, as filed in their response on the 15th of February,
6 The Chamber considers that the Prosecution has not shown good
7 cause for the late addition of documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list.
8 However, the Chamber finds that the four remaining documents are,
9 prima facie, probative and of -- and relevant to incidents in Foca during
10 the indictment period. The Chamber also considers that the documents are
11 short in length and are no longer sought to be tendered through a witness
12 due to testify in the immediate future.
13 The Chamber therefore finds that the accused will not be unduly
14 prejudiced by their addition to the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter exhibit
15 list, and finds it to be in the interests of justice to allow the
16 addition of the documents bearing provisional Rule 65 ter numbers 28732
17 up to and including 28735 to the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter exhibit list.
18 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
19 [The accused entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, if you are ready, please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. We left off at the Grbavci school where you had just compared
23 your actual observations to the account of the survivors and showed us --
24 what had matched up.
25 Now let's move on to the possible execution site. Let's go to
2 Can you explain in this split image what you're communicating,
3 Mr. Ruez?
4 A. Yes. So on this photograph, at the left -- just at the very left
5 would be the Grbavci school, just out of the frame. You have then at the
6 bottom of the picture an asphalt road, and above this asphalt road is a
7 railroad. This railroad is an important feature, since one alleged
8 survivor claims having walked on this railroad after having survived an
9 execution until he saw the lights that he realised being the lights of
10 Zvornik town.
11 The arrows at the -- at the right pin-point two -- two initially
12 suspect sites that we now consider as being execution sites. After a
13 few -- a short drive, the road became bumpy and then the trucks stopped
14 and unloaded the victims. These locations are pin-pointed precisely at
15 the right of the picture with the arrows.
16 I say in advance that here they are labelled execution site 1,
17 execution site 2. This is the correct chronology. On other pictures, we
18 will have to -- I will have to explain the labelling.
19 Q. All right. Let's go to the next picture. 140.
20 We see a split image of an area. One is dated 5 July. One is
21 dated 27 July. And it's Orahovac. Is that anywhere near the Grbavci
22 school and what you just pointed out?
23 A. Yes. Orahovac is the name of the area.
24 And so on the picture at the left, the -- the asphalt road is
25 next to the label 5th July. Then going down is a dirt road that goes
1 underneath the railroad line.
2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, which I think you've
3 marked. 141.
4 A. So on this one, the markings are done. The road towards the
5 school, the railroad. And on 25th -- on 27 July, one can see that the
6 soil has been disturbed in two locations. The first one is named
7 Lazete 1. It is because it is the closest to the school. The second
8 one, Lazete 2, is, in fact, the first spot where the people were taken
10 Q. And just briefly, what -- what do you make of the -- this
11 disturbed -- what you've called disturbed soil on the 27th and none on
12 the 5th?
13 A. This is, in fact, the difference that enabled us, because we
14 narrowed down the area, made an imagery request because the witness
15 testimonies could not enable us to find the location. It would not be
16 possible. Even by bringing witnesses back to the spot, it would not have
17 been possible because they would never have recognised the place. They
18 were taken there by night-time, and it was behind -- the first execution
19 site is behind this railroad line, and this railroad line is on an
20 elevation about 3 metres high. So without these technical means, we
21 would never have been able to -- to spot these suspect sites which appear
22 to be mass graves.
23 Q. Let's go to the next shot. 142.
24 We see that you've labelled this LZ which must be for "Lazete," I
25 take it?
1 A. The labelling LZ is Lazete because the first maps that we had of
2 this area, it was not Orahovac. It was Lazete, the village of Lazete.
3 So we named it LZ. But later on, we used the -- the wording of the
4 imagery by naming these places Orahovac.
5 So this picture shows the Lazete 2 site, which is, in fact,
6 execution site 1, photographed from the elevation that is the railroad.
7 Q. Let's go to 143, the next page --
8 A. And, sorry, on -- on -- on this picture, you can see -- the
9 previous one, sorry.
10 Q. Better go back to 142.
11 A. You can clearly see on the ground the disturbance visible from
12 the air where the yellow arrow points.
13 The -- yeah. Okay.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one.
15 A. So this is the situation on the ground when we did our first
16 visit on the site, which I -- it was in April 1996. The -- this is the
17 area where the disturbance is, so that we suspect being the execution
18 area. And the yellow markers show the location of some of -- many items
19 that we could see on the surface of the ground here.
20 Q. Like what?
21 A. We will have close-up, like --
22 Q. All right. I'm sorry. Let's go to the next one. 144.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, before we go into the details of this
24 picture, it is 14 minutes past 2.00.
25 Mr. Groome, you're on your feet.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just briefly before we adjourn for the
3 The sniping expert report has not been assigned an exhibit
4 number. It is 65 ter 28541. The Prosecution would ask that that be
6 JUDGE ORIE: That is the Van der Weijden report.
7 MR. GROOME: [Microphone not activated] That's correct,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just see. I have read the decision.
10 Madam Registrar, is -- is this sufficient for you to assign a
12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Document 28541 receives number
13 P1130, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, as a result of the decision I read
15 earlier, P1130 is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. GROOME: Just one more matter, it should be under seal. If
19 the Chamber looks back at its original discussion about this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then P1130 is admitted under seal.
21 Thank you for reminding me, Mr. Groome.
22 We -- I would first like to instruct you, Mr. Ruez, that you
23 should not speak or communicate in whatever other way with whomever, how
24 well you may know them, with whomever about your testimony either given
25 already or still to be given, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow
1 morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.
2 You may follow the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,
5 Friday, the 12th of April, 2013, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in
6 the morning.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of April,
9 2013, at 9.30 a.m.