1 Tuesday, 23 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries, therefore can the witness be escorted into the
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President. The Defence now has
14 the B/C/S of the table of contents and it's going into e-court as we
15 speak, and when that happens I can offer the book again into evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic is confirming by nodding his head.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Ms. Gallagher. Perhaps needless to
19 say, but you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at
20 the beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Ivetic will now continue his
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
1 Q. Good morning, Ms. Gallagher.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. I would like to start today by referring to one of the videos,
4 the segments that you talked about and that we all viewed last week.
5 MR. IVETIC: And for purposes of identification, I will call up
6 the Skorpions video but it was identified as part of Exhibit P1147 and is
7 the video labelled V000-9267, the segment going from 01:06:15 to 01:26:12
8 on the Prosecution's exhibit list. I would like to spend the first part
9 of my examination focusing on that video, and to accompany that I'd like
10 to turn to the stills book, which is P1148 marked for identification, and
11 I'd like to turn to page 153 in the hard copy and page 165 in e-court.
12 Q. And now, Ms. Gallagher, is this image that I have now called up
13 on e-court in fact taken from that same Skorpions video that I have
14 identified which was played last week by Mr. McCloskey?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And, in fact, according to your information and investigations
17 that you conducted, is it correct that this flag that is depicted here is
18 not a flag of the VRS, that is to say, the Army of the Republika Srpska?
19 A. That's a flag of the Skorpion unit.
20 Q. And looking at this page from the stills book, at the bottom, the
21 location is indicated to be at the Skorpion headquarters in Djeletovci,
22 Croatia, and is dated the 25th of June, 1995. Does this information
23 that's included in the stills book accord with the information known to
24 you from your investigative work?
25 A. That's correct. The headquarters were located in Djeletovci at
1 the time.
2 Q. And also from your investigative work, would you agree that the
3 Skorpions were an armed formation primarily active in the area known as
4 the Republic of Serbian Krajina on the territory of the former Yugoslav
5 Republic of Croatia?
6 A. They were most of that time, though, with missions to Bosnia.
7 Q. Now, as part of your investigative work, can you confirm that the
8 Skorpions were not an armed formation of the VRS, the Army of
9 Republika Srpska, at the time of the Srebrenica operation in July of
11 A. They were -- they were subordinated to the MUP, who was
12 subordinated to the VRS in Bosnia at that time, but they were a separate
13 formation prior to the operation and specifically in Trnovo.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Any problems with the sound? If so ...
15 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 Q. And -- I apologise. Did you have a chance to complete your
19 A. Yes, I did answer.
20 Q. Okay. And one thing that I noticed and probably you have known
21 for some time having probably studied the video longer than I have, but
22 the Skorpion members in that video that we watched last week did not
23 appear to have any VRS emblems or insignia on their uniforms, did they?
24 A. That's correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek -- let me see. The question -- yes,
1 Mr. Ivetic, you asked -- you described the Skorpions and what kind of a
2 formation it was and that were mainly active in the area known as the
3 Krajina in Croatia. Then your answer I read it from the transcript was:
4 "They were most of that time, though, with missions to Bosnia."
5 Do I understand that you confirm the description of the unit but
6 that you do not confirm that they were mainly active in the Krajina in
7 Croatia? Is that how I have to understand your answer?
8 THE WITNESS: I would say they were mainly posted in the Krajina
9 in Djeletovci area; however, they were sent out on missions to Bosnia.
10 And as we have seen in this Trnovo mission, that's one example.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that clarifies your answer.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 Q. And if we can focus on the part of the video that was aired last
15 week of the Skorpions personnel killing several individuals, the exhibit
16 list from the Prosecution dates the video as being the 25th of June,
17 1995. According to your information and investigation, is that in fact
18 the date of the events depicted in the video?
19 A. The initial where you're seeing this ceremony, the blessing of
20 the Skorpion unit, that is -- that takes place on June 25th, 1995.
21 There's much more to this video than what was shown in court and it
22 chronicles other days, such as throughout the rest of June into early
23 July. And then it's -- of 1995 and then it stops. What we have noted as
24 the dates of the killing clip of the video that you saw was sometime
25 between July 12th and July 24th. We don't know exactly which days the
1 killings happened.
2 Q. Thank you. And I think on the next page of the stills book we
3 have that range that you have -- that you have now given for us. And
4 does that mean, then, with respect to the entire investigation that
5 you've performed, you cannot exclude the possibility that the events that
6 occurred on that videotape occurred as late as the 24th of July, 1995?
7 A. That's correct. We -- what we're saying is it happened -- we
8 believe it happened and the evidence that we've -- our team and other
9 teams have gathered through other witnesses and through documents that
10 sometime between the 12th and the 24th it occurred.
11 Q. And now discussing the events that were depicted in that part of
12 the segment that was aired last week, would you confirm for me that the
13 location of those events was at or near Trnovo?
14 A. That's correct. It's nearby Trnovo in an area called
15 Godinske Bare which is an area of weekend houses a couple of kilometres
16 from Trnovo.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make matters clear, Mr. Ivetic, whenever you
18 ask where it was, what happened, et cetera, I take it that you -- the
19 question always is: What did you learn on the basis of your
20 investigations about?
21 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Because the witness has no direct knowledge of any
23 of these things as I understand you well.
24 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. And again, based upon what you know from the basis of your
3 investigations, were the bodies of the victims recovered near Trnovo?
4 A. They were recovered in the area that you saw on the video inside
5 and nearby the weekend house in Godinske Bare.
6 Q. And now, Madam, for those -- if you can help out those of us who
7 have not had the opportunity to do a site visit on the ground, isn't
8 Trnovo closer to Sarajevo than it is to Srebrenica?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And, in fact, to travel from Srebrenica to Trnovo, one would have
11 to either go around Sarajevo or through Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes. There's -- obviously you can get there in several different
13 routes, but that's true.
14 Q. And would you agree, again based upon the knowledge that you've
15 gained from your investigations, that the distance between Srebrenica and
16 Trnovo is approximately 140 to 160 kilometres?
17 A. I would say it's close to that. I don't know if that's -- I
18 believe that it's over a hundred kilometres. I'm not sure about if it's
19 as much as 140 or 160, but it's a significant distance.
20 Q. Thank you for that.
21 Now, would you agree with me - again based on your investigative
22 work - that the Skorpions unit was supposed to be engaged on the part of
23 the civilian police authorities near Sarajevo and was tasked with
24 defending against army BiH attacks during the stated time-period when the
25 events in the video occurred?
1 A. I believe they were -- they were subordinated with other MUP
2 units to come and defend Trnovo.
3 Q. And in relation to the video itself, would you agree with me that
4 this Skorpions video first came to light sometime before -- during the
5 trial of Slobodan Milosevic, that is to say, the early years of 2000?
6 A. I certainly know that the time that the OTP became aware of the
7 video is a little later than -- is 2003; however, they didn't first see
8 the video until 2000 -- first acquire the video until 2004,
9 September 2004.
10 Q. If I can ask you about the origin of the video, could you tell us
11 how and when it came into the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor
12 in 2004?
13 A. I can certainly give you a brief synopsis of it. There will be
14 other people, I believe, that will be testifying that can give you more
15 details --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to worry about who will come as a
17 witness. Just answer the question.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And if Mr. Ivetic is happy with a short synopsis, I
20 don't know to what extent you have personal knowledge or what you --
21 whether it's hearsay, but please don't worry about the course of the
22 proceedings and whether other witnesses will testify. Please proceed.
23 THE WITNESS: I know that the Sarajevo field office had been
24 approached by somebody who said they had a copy of this video. The field
25 office got in touch with one of the team investigators, Tore Soldal, who
1 then travelled to Sarajevo to meet with this person who had the video and
2 along with Dermot Groome. And they met the intermediary who had the
3 video and were able to watch it and that's initially -- and were able to
4 gain a copy of it. So that's how the OTP first acquired it.
5 MR. IVETIC:
6 Q. Thank you. And now as part of your investigations, you have been
7 unable to locate any indicia that this video was broadcast publicly on TV
8 and at any time during the war, that is to say, during the years of 1995
9 or even 1996; is that right?
10 A. I have not seen any documentation, any statements, that it was
11 ever broadcasted on TV.
12 Q. Again, as part of your investigations, you have no evidence that
13 such a video was ever in the possession of or shown to General Mladic
14 prior to last week; is that correct?
15 A. I have no knowledge of that, no.
16 Q. And apart from the coincidental fact that the unfortunate victims
17 in the video hail from Srebrenica, there is not any link between this
18 video and the VRS operating in and around Srebrenica; is that correct?
19 A. I'm not sure if I quite understand the question. Can you
20 rephrase it in terms of the link between the video and the VRS operating.
21 Q. Sure.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, perhaps it's good to make a distinction
23 between what can be seen on the video and whether there's other
24 information available. Where you ask about:
25 "There is not any link between this video ..."
1 Now, that can be based on information not contained in the video
2 itself or contained in the video. Perhaps it's good to make that
3 distinction. The question remains the same.
4 MR. IVETIC: Yeah.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you are invited to rephrase it.
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
7 Q. Am I correct that the results of your investigative work have --
8 have been able to determine that the victims depicted in the video
9 originate from the town of Srebrenica or hail from the town of
10 Srebrenica, but that apart from that, there has been no link between the
11 events depicted in the video and the events that were occurring in and
12 around Sarajevo from 13 July -- excuse me, Srebrenica, 13 July through
13 16 July?
14 A. No, the -- from a witness statement, the witness did say that
15 this was one of several trips that they, the Skorpion unit, made to
16 Srebrenica to collect victims and then to bring them somewhere to have
17 them killed. Aside from that statement and what you see on the video and
18 knowing that the victims are from the Srebrenica area, we don't -- I'm
19 not aware of another link with Srebrenica.
20 Q. And are you aware from your investigative work that the Serbian
21 courts have convicted certain of the Skorpions for this crime in the
22 video and levied the maximum jail sentence available under the law?
23 A. That's true.
24 Q. Now, a little bit earlier you mentioned the Skorpion units being
25 subordinated. I would like to ask you as part of your investigative
1 work, have you had an occasion to review the Law on Internal Affairs,
2 particularly Articles 10 and 14 of the same, that were in effect on the
3 territory of Republika Srpska during the stated time-period in 1995?
4 A. No, I don't think I'm -- I'm not aware that I'm familiar with
5 these articles, 10 and 14.
6 Q. When you used the word "resubordinated," did you have in mind the
7 elements of the applicable law that in this case of resubordination, the
8 chain of command is retained by the original unit, that is to say that
9 the chain of command is not transferred to a new chain of command?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the witness just testified that she is
11 not familiar with the legal aspects of this. I think your question is
12 very much focusing on whether the witness had in mind the applicable law
13 which she says she is not familiar with. Unless I misunderstood you,
14 Ms. Gallagher.
15 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
16 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
17 Q. So then when you say "resubordinated," you don't intend with any
18 kind of legal effect or meaning when you use those terms?
19 A. I -- I'm using basically a very similar example regarding the
20 MUP, the RS MUP, being subordinated to the VRS during the Srebrenica
21 operation. And I believe it's a very similar circumstance, so that's --
22 I'm drawing that same conclusion as to how the RS MUP were subordinated
23 to the VRS.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Gallagher, do you use the word "subordinate"
25 in its English meaning?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you for your assistance, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now I want to move along to another topic that is another segment
5 of the Srebrenica trial video that we viewed last week, and this is
6 identified as V000-9268, the segment running from 00:28:27 to 00:33:26
7 and is related to the Zepa region.
8 Now, last week at transcript page 10.123, you testified that this
9 was some kind of picnic. Would it refresh your recollection to be told
10 that this was, in fact, a physical fitness test conducted of the entire
11 VRS Main Staff that involved a hike on foot from Han Pijesak to Zepa?
12 A. In terms of watching the raw footage of it, I wouldn't have
13 characterised it as a physical fitness test, but I know that they were --
14 that they did do a long hike.
15 Q. And just so we're clear, that long hike occurred in June of 1996,
16 essentially a full year after the military action in Srebrenica and Zepa
17 had been completed?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And now still at transcript page 10.123, last week you were
20 saying at line 13 that General Mladic was pointing out some of the
21 historical and important places during the war, in fact viewing the
22 entire footage of this segment. Would it be, in fact, accurate to say
23 that he was also chronicling atrocities committed by the Muslim forces in
24 places against Serb civilians and soldiers and in fact attacks against
1 A. I know he's pointing -- if my memory is correct, he's pointing
2 out some of the battle sites, some of the areas they lost, some of the
3 areas they won, some of the key towns, some of the key sort of locations.
4 Q. Churches and villages that had been razed by the Muslim forces?
5 A. That's -- I think that is correct.
6 Q. And am I also correct that through the entirety of that video
7 segment, it's not just General Mladic giving background on the historical
8 context of various locations but also other persons are seen doing the
9 same through this video?
10 A. Correct. He's not -- as I remember, he's not the only person
11 that's speaking.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move on to another topic.
13 MR. IVETIC: There was another video segment shown last week
14 which was identified as follows: V000-9266 and the segment was
15 identified as running from 00:32:29 to 00:44:52 and is labelled the
16 Zivanovic speech. And just to make sure that we are all on the same page
17 about what I am referring to, let's look at the Srebrenica stills book,
18 again P1148, MFI, and it will be at page 85 in e-court, page 73 in the
19 hard copy. And this is identified as a St. Peter and Paul patron day,
20 12 July 1995. And if we can turn to the next page in both versions of
21 the book, we can see a still taken from this video so that we can place
22 it in our memories from last week.
23 Q. And first of all, Ms. Gallagher, am I correct that from a review
24 of this footage in total, General Mladic does not appear to be present
25 for this event.
1 A. No, he's not present.
2 Q. And am I correct that this appears to be a private gathering and
3 event at the home of Mr. Bajagic and, indeed, appears to be his patron
4 saint's day or Slava?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And does it also appear that it is a civilian gathering where
7 civilians and, indeed, children are present?
8 A. It's -- I recall it's a mix of some military members, civilians,
9 as you can see what -- there's staff that are waiting on them. And yes,
10 I think there must be several children.
11 Q. And you've identified some military members. Am I correct from a
12 review of the entire segment that apart from Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Bajagic
13 and about two other persons in army uniform that I saw, the vast majority
14 of the people present are clearly civilians, dressed in civilian
16 A. Certainly most of the people gathered there are wearing civilian
18 Q. And am I correct that there are not any members of the VRS
19 Main Staff visible as being present at this celebration?
20 A. That's true.
21 Q. And now what about the results of your investigation and what you
22 know from there, can you confirm that the results from your investigation
23 have indicated that neither General Mladic nor anyone else from the VRS
24 Main Staff was present on this occasion at this event?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is that question not yet put and answered?
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'd asked her if they were visible on
2 the video and now I'm asking about, in addition to what's physically seen
3 on the video, if her investigation can confirm that neither
4 General Mladic or the VRS Main Staff were present.
5 JUDGE ORIE: One of the answers, perhaps, went a bit beyond your
6 question, that is that -- who was not present. But there's no major
7 problem in answering this question whether for the first time or again.
8 THE WITNESS: Right. There doesn't appear -- and as far as I
9 know no other -- no one else from the Main Staff that was present at this
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. Thank you, Madam. Now, this celebration of Mr. Bajagic who,
13 according to this page that we have up in e-court now from the book, in
14 addition to being the clerk of the technical services detachment of the
15 Drina Corps is also a curator of St. Peter's church. Is this information
16 contained in the book the result of your investigation and what that
18 A. That's true. He does wear other hats as well, but those were two
19 more official roles he plays.
20 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, Ms. Gallagher, the bottom of these
21 pages relating to this video segment identify this particular video
22 coming from the Mladic seizure footage. Can you tell us when this video
23 came to the Prosecution's possession?
24 A. Yes. This was a search and seizure done of the Mladic family
25 home. There were two conducted, one in 2008, one in 2010. I believe
1 this is the 2008 search and seizure of his home in Belgrade.
2 Q. And if I can ask you, prior to 2008, the Mladic household in
3 Belgrade had been searched multiple occasions without this video having
4 been found; is that correct?
5 A. That's true.
6 Q. And, in fact, in 2008, based on your information, General Mladic
7 was no longer residing at the Mladic residence in Belgrade; is that
9 A. That's true.
10 Q. And you cannot exclude the possibility that this video came to
11 be -- came to arrive at the -- at that location at some time after
12 General Mladic had vacated the premises, can you?
13 A. Right. I can't exclude any possibility, no.
14 Q. Has your investigation revealed that other people cohabitated in
15 that household and, indeed, continued to reside on the premises after
16 General Mladic was no longer living there?
17 A. His wife has resided there and had been residing there, so I'm --
18 I know that.
19 Q. Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask a few clarifying questions. Mr. Ivetic
21 referred to multiple searches at multiple occasions before 2008. They
22 were conducted by whom?
23 THE WITNESS: Most of these searches have been conducted by the
24 Serbian MUP.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You say "most of them." The others were conducted
1 by ...?
2 THE WITNESS: I think I -- I want to be careful. I don't want to
3 say that they all have been because I don't know the history of all the
4 searches. I know for sure 2008 and 2010 were conducted by the Serbian
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And were you involved or had you requested in
7 any way for these prior searches before 2008?
8 Mr. Ivetic, no loud speaking from Mr. Mladic and to remain
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have -- do you know where exactly the -- this
12 video was found during the search?
13 THE WITNESS: It's found in the home, but I'm a little more
14 familiar with the second search. I'm not -- I don't recall where
15 exactly, if it's a bookcase, a cupboard, or a bedroom. That part I don't
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. If I can ask a follow-up question as to the searches --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd forgotten that due to the interruption that
24 you had not answered my question about whether there was any involvement
25 from the OTP in the early searches.
1 THE WITNESS: That I don't know. I know in 2008, 2010, it did
2 not come upon the request of the OTP. We were alerted when the searches
3 happened and I don't know prior -- or the OTP involvement prior.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Based upon your knowledge of the procedures and protocols that
8 have been in place for investigations being conducted, would it have been
9 expected procedure that at least for some of these searches that had been
10 conducted at the request of the OTP or the Tribunal, that representatives
11 of the Tribunal would have been present when Serbian officials conducted
12 a search of the premises?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I have some confusion. I may have misunderstood
14 your answers. I did understand your answers to be that in 2008 and 2010
15 the searches were not conducted at the request and you do not know for
16 the earlier searches. So therefore, Mr. Ivetic, I'm a bit confused by
17 your reference to the searches at the request of --
18 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour. I had not caught that
19 last half as to the -- I had only heard that the 2008 and 2010 were
20 not -- I stand corrected and therefore withdraw that question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. IVETIC:
23 Q. Now I'd like to look at another segment of the trial video that
24 we viewed which was identified on the exhibit list as being video
25 V000-9266 from 00:00:17 to 00:01:19, a body in Srebrenica town
1 12 July 1995. Now, at transcript page 10.116 last week, you talked about
2 this clip where there is a body visible on the screen and you said that
3 Drazen Erdemovic described how this man had died in the Tolimir trial; is
4 that accurate?
5 A. That's correct. I described -- he described it in the Tolimir
6 trial as well as in proofing prior to the trial.
7 Q. And now again based upon your investigation and the knowledge
8 that you've gained from it, there's no evidence to suggest that
9 General Mladic was present at the time of the event described by
10 Drazen Erdemovic; is that correct?
11 A. No. Drazen Erdemovic did not say that Mladic was nearby or
12 present at the time he was killed -- the person was killed.
13 Q. And in this segment of the video where the body is being filmed
14 and which you said was on 12 July 1995, viewing the entire segment
15 General Mladic is not seen to be present in the video at this time; is
16 that also accurate?
17 A. That's accurate.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honours.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Okay, Ms. Gallagher, I thank you for answering my questions.
23 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honours, I think at this time I have no
24 further questions for the witness on the topic of the Srebrenica trial
25 videos or the stills book. And again I can confirm for the record that
1 Mr. McCloskey has provided this morning a B/C/S translation of the table
2 found at the front of the book, and so our objection based upon the lack
3 of translation is therefore moot or withdrawn.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
5 Mr. McCloskey, any need to re-examine the witness?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. And the B/C/S has been
7 uploaded. If we could ask the court officer to link it and again offer
8 it into evidence, we'd be all done.
9 JUDGE ORIE: This was the only objection, isn't it, Mr. Ivetic?
10 MR. IVETIC: That is correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, I think it was MFI'd or have
12 we not yet assigned a number?
13 MR. IVETIC: I believe it was P1148, MFI, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1148 is admitted into evidence.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, admission of P1148 depends on attaching
17 the new B/C/S -- new B/C/S translation. Madam Registrar is hereby
18 instructed to attach it to P1148.
19 No further questions, Mr. -- which means that this concludes the
20 testimony of Ms. Gallagher. There's no new round where she will give --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have her noted for one other book. We
22 haven't quite gotten there yet but --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- for this round --
25 JUDGE ORIE: For this round we are done.
1 Which means, Ms. Gallagher, that -- could you give us any
2 indication as to when you expect Ms. Gallagher to be called again for
3 this last book?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I need to discuss the matter with the Defence.
5 We have discussed a bit about some of the issues related to the next book
6 and we all hope within a month or so, but we still -- there's some coffee
7 to be had over that one.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if you have some coffee over all this,
9 Mr. Ivetic, I wondered whether most of the questions you've put to the
10 witness and the answers given by her would not have been perfectly fit to
11 agree upon with the Prosecution because I don't know whether it was --
12 any effort was made to see whether you could agree on all this?
13 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, the public was subjected to
14 two-plus hours, I believe, of hearing the Prosecution's side of things
15 and I think it's entirely fair for us to seek to have a small fraction of
16 that time to present matters that are relevant that the witness is
17 familiar with so that the public record can get a better picture and
18 understanding of what was shown. So I think that all the questions that
19 I asked were appropriate in that regard.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think at trial you should -- we should focus on
21 matters in dispute. I do understand that they are mainly not in dispute.
22 If you say the public should be aware of it, then you could just read out
23 in five minutes a list of what you agreed upon so that it's clear to the
24 public as well. Let's move on.
25 Ms. Gallagher, I then would like to instruct you again that you
1 should not speak with anyone about your testimony, and I do understand
2 that it's not a very practical situation but, nevertheless, that's the
3 result of the approach taken by the Office of the Prosecution to call you
4 at several instances rather than at once. Please take this instruction
5 very seriously and then we'll see you back soon. You may follow the
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I would have two decisions to be delivered and at
9 the same time I'm wondering whether it has -- makes any sense to then
10 start for the last four or five minutes with the witness. We also could
11 postpone the reading of the decisions and start for a full 15 minutes
12 with the next witness. Perhaps that's a better way of using our time.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's fine, Mr. President. The witness is here
14 and obviously ready.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted to the
16 courtroom. No protective measures, Mr. -- I wanted to say
17 "Mr. McCloskey" but that doesn't apply any further, isn't it?
18 MR. JEREMY: That's right, Your Honour, and good morning,
19 Your Honours.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Rave, I take it. Mr. Rave, before
22 you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you
23 make the solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you in the
24 English language. May I invite --
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak the
1 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Rave. Please be seated.
3 Yes, Mr. Rave, you'll first be examined by Mr. Jeremy.
4 Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution. You will find him to your
6 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
7 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 WITNESS: EVERT RAVE
9 Examination by Mr. Jeremy:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rave.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
13 A. I'm Evert Albert Rave.
14 Q. And is it true that you have previously provided a written
15 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And in particular --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You're developing a speed which may cause some
19 problems for transcription and interpretation.
20 MR. JEREMY: That's noted, Your Honour.
21 Q. In particular, did you provide a written statement to the Office
22 of the Prosecutor on the 17th of February, 1998?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd ask the court officer to please
25 display 65 ter 28789. This is the statement of the witness dated
1 17 February 1998.
2 Q. Mr. Rave, once the document is on the screen before you, can I
3 ask that you view the first page of the English version. And do you
4 recognise the signature at the bottom of the page?
5 A. Yes, that's my signature.
6 MR. JEREMY: Can I ask that we go to the last page of the English
7 statement, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, Mr. ...
9 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, but Mr. Mladic has to leave
10 the courtroom for a short --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is it -- does he want to leave the courtroom
12 for a second that we continue or should we take an early break and
13 then --
14 MR. LUKIC: I think it's wiser to take a short -- to take an
15 early break but --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I receive different signals from Mr. Mladic. Could
17 you please consult with him.
18 MR. LUKIC: Regular break, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, regular break. Then we'll have an early break,
20 Mr. Rave.
21 Mr. Lukic, at the same time, if Mr. Mladic would already leave
22 the courtroom, would there be any problem in me reading two decisions?
23 Could you please consult with Mr. ...
24 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
25 MR. LUKIC: No problem, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Then, Mr. Rave, if you would please follow the usher, we'd like
3 to see you back in a little bit over 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: And could Mr. Mladic be escorted out of the
6 courtroom and we'll take then a few more minutes to read two decisions,
7 one of them in private session.
8 Mr. Mladic, you may follow the security.
9 [The accused stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's one decision to be read in open session
11 and one in private session. I'll start with the decision on the
12 admission of Exhibits P957 and P958 into evidence.
13 On the 14th of January, 2013, the Prosecution filed a Rule 92 ter
14 motion tendering transcript excerpts from witness Edin Suljic's previous
15 testimony in the Galic case. On the 28th of January, the Defence
16 responded submitting that portions of the tendered transcripts amounted
17 to hearsay and expert evidence and should therefore be redacted. On the
18 14th of February, in the course of the witness's testimony, these
19 transcript excerpts were marked for identification as P957.
20 Also during the course of the witness's testimony, the
21 Prosecution tendered a report containing what Suljic described as expert
22 opinion upon which he relied during his investigation. The Defence also
23 objected to the admission of this report on the basis that it was
24 improperly tendered expert evidence, citing as support decision from the
25 Milutinovic et al. and the Lukic and Lukic cases. The report was marked
1 for identification as P958.
2 On the 14th and 15th of February, the Defence made additional
3 objections to the admission of P957 on the grounds that the Prosecution
4 had selected only portions of the previous testimony which had not been
5 translated into B/C/S, thereby undermining the accused's ability to
6 prepare for this witness's cross-examination, and that these excerpts
7 included mistakes later identified by the witness.
8 With regard to the Defence's objection concerning the expert
9 nature of the witness's previous testimony, P957, the Chamber recalls its
10 discussion at transcript pages 8730 to 8731 and again notes that, rather
11 than offering an expert opinion, the witness testified about his personal
12 knowledge of and participation in an investigation which included his
13 co-operation with certain experts. With regard to the Defence's
14 objection as to the expert nature of the report marked as P958, the
15 Chamber recalls its discussion at transcript page 8712 and again notes
16 the distinction between expert reports drafted for the purpose of the
17 Tribunal and subject to the procedural requirements of Rule 94 bis as
18 compared to expert reports drafted for other purposes.
19 The Chamber further notes that the case law cited by the Defence
20 does not support the contention that P958 is a statement or report of an
21 expert witness subject to Rule 94 bis. Rather, the cited decisions as
22 well as the jurisprudence of the Appeals Chamber make the same
23 distinction between reports of expert witnesses prepared for the purposes
24 of litigation before the Tribunal and reports containing statements made
25 by non-witnesses for other purposes. The jurisprudence clearly states
1 that the latter type of reports, such as P958, are admissible pursuant to
2 Rule 89(C).
3 The Chamber finds that although the witness's evidence
4 incorporates the expert opinion of others, neither the witness's previous
5 testimony, P957, nor the report about which he testified, P958, can be
6 accurately characterised as a report of an expert witness for the purpose
7 of litigation before the Tribunal. The Chamber does, of course,
8 recognise that portions of P957 and the entirety of P958 constitute
9 hearsay evidence. However, the Chamber again notes that the hearsay
10 nature of evidence does not act as a bar to admission.
11 With regard to the Defence's objection on the basis of there not
12 being a B/C/S transcript of the witness's previous testimony available
13 for the accused, the Chamber notes that the accused has access to the
14 B/C/S audio which the Chamber considers sufficient. With regard to the
15 Defence's objection on the grounds that the witness's previous testimony
16 contains errors in transcription or translation, the Chamber notes that
17 the witness corrected a portion of his previous testimony at transcript
18 pages 8772 to 8773. The Chamber does not find that such errors reduce
19 the reliability of the testimony to such an extent that it becomes
21 Lastly, with regard to the Defence's objection to the
22 Prosecution's selection of transcript excerpts, the Chamber notes that
23 the plain language of Rules 89 and 92 ter clearly permit the admission of
24 portions of a witness's previous testimony and that according to the
25 practice established in this trial the Defence was invited to tender
1 additional portions of the previous testimony but did not do so. For the
2 foregoing reasons, the Chamber denies the Defence request to redact
3 portions of P957 and admits P957 and P958 into evidence.
4 Then we move briefly into private session.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 What we did in the private session, the Chamber issued a decision
22 admitting P1095 into evidence under seal.
23 I'm looking at the clock. We take a break of 20 minutes, which
24 means that we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
1 [The accused entered court]
2 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
4 Meanwhile, I have a matter to raise. It's about
5 Witness Teufika Ibrahimefendic. In a decision which we delivered on the
6 12th of February, the Chamber has by majority granted the Prosecution's
7 request to call Dr. Ibrahimefendic to testify viva voce as an expert
8 witness without her statement or report having been tendered. Last week,
9 on the 18th of April, the Prosecution filed a 92 ter motion for this same
10 witness, tendering a portion of her previous testimony in the Krstic
11 case. In this motion, the Prosecution acknowledges that it originally
12 disclosed the witness's Krstic testimony to the Defence pursuant to
13 Rule 94 bis and now requests the Chamber leave to present the witness's
14 testimony pursuant to Rule 92 ter. And the Chamber would like to clarify
15 with the Prosecution whether it is calling Dr. Ibrahimefendic as a fact
16 witness or as an expert witness. And the Chamber would like to receive
17 as soon as possible a response to this question.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, would you like a written response
19 or I can merely --
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you say not necessarily --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: We still consider her an expert witness. We're
23 trying to just save a little time and target it with a 92 ter. We
24 understand it's inconsistent with the previous position, but it was
25 purely a practical measure.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If that's your position, then we'll consider
2 this change of the routing.
3 Mr. Rave, apologies for not paying proper attention when you
4 entered the courtroom to continue with other matters.
5 Mr. Jeremy, if you're ready, you may continue your
7 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 May I again ask that we see in e-court 65 ter -- we have it
9 there. Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Rave, we left off looking at the last page of your statement
11 dated 17 February 1998. And is that your signature on the last page?
12 A. Yes, that's also my signature.
13 Q. And have you had an opportunity to read and review your statement
14 in preparation for your testimony here today?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. I note that next to your signature on the last page, the date
17 17/02/1998 appears.
18 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 1 of the statement, please.
19 Q. Mr. Rave, the date of the interview on the front of the statement
20 is indicated as 11, 12, and 17 July 1995. Is it correct that this date
21 should instead be 17 February 1998?
22 A. Yes, it should be 1998 because at the other dates I was in
24 Q. Taking into account the corrections that you've made to your
25 statement, if I were today to ask you similar questions to those you were
1 asked in the taking of that statement, would you give the same answers in
3 A. Yeah, in substance I would give the same answers.
4 Q. And now that you --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could I clarify one matter, please, Mr. Jeremy.
6 You said 17th February 1998, but I see here the dates 11, 12, and
7 17th of July, 1995, and it should read 1998? Please clarify the
8 difference between July and February.
9 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. I think that the dates of the
10 interview as currently reflected are incorrect and it should not say 11,
11 12, and 17 July 1995, but instead 17 February 1998.
12 Q. And I'd just like the witness to confirm that that was the date
13 that --
14 A. Yeah, I can confirm that.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 MR. JEREMY:
17 Q. Mr. Rave, now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you
18 confirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
21 this statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: No objections.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28789 receives number P1149,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P1149 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, there was one associated exhibit
4 mentioned in the 92 ter filing for this witness. My intention is to deal
5 with that exhibit in the direct examination of the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's acceptable. Please proceed.
7 MR. JEREMY: I would now propose reading a short summary of this
8 witness's evidence, the purpose of which I have explained to the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please read the summary.
10 MR. JEREMY: From January 1995 to July 1995, Evert Rave was a
11 sergeant-major in the Royal Dutch Army assigned to the Dutch elements of
12 the United Nations Protection Force based in the Srebrenica enclave. On
13 11 July 1995, Rave was in Srebrenica town the morning the enclave fell.
14 He travelled with the refugees to the UN base in Potocari on the
15 afternoon of the 11th of July, 1995. That evening, Rave attended two
16 meetings at the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac.
17 For the first meeting, Rave travelled together with Colonel
18 Karremans and Major Boering to the Hotel Fontana, arriving at 8.00 p.m.
19 There, General Mladic first spoke of the NATO air-strikes and threatened
20 that if there were any more air-strikes he would respond by shelling the
21 UN compound, killing the Dutch hostages. General Mladic instructed
22 Colonel Karremans to return to the Hotel Fontana at 10:30 p.m. that
23 evening together with Muslim military and civilian representatives. The
24 meeting lasted approximately 30 minutes. Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric and
25 Captain Momir Nikolic were present at the meeting together with a number
1 of other officers from the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 For the second meeting, Rave travelled to the Hotel Fontana with
3 Colonel Karremans, Major Boering, and Nesib Mandzic, a Muslim civilian
4 representative, arriving at 10.30 p.m. During this meeting,
5 General Mladic talked to Nesib Mandzic about the civilian population and
6 the Muslim military, saying, among other things, that the civilian
7 population was free to go and the military should lay down their weapons.
8 This meeting ended at approximately midnight.
9 Rave remained in Potocari on 12 July 1995 and did not attend the
10 third meeting at the Hotel Fontana on the morning of the 12th of July.
11 He observed the separation and forcible transfer of the civilian
12 population on 12 and 13 July 1995. Throughout this process, he saw men
13 being separated from their families, personal belongings being placed in
14 holding areas.
15 That concludes the summary, Your Honours, and with your leave, I
16 now propose to ask the witness some additional questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so.
18 MR. JEREMY:
19 Q. Mr. Rave, before we begin, I see you have some materials in front
20 of you. Could you briefly explain to the Court what these are?
21 A. Yeah, I brought some notebooks and a diary which I used during
22 the whole period and especially also in the last days in the enclave.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Rave, my questions today will be focused on
24 events in the enclave between 10 to the 13th of July, 1995, and also on
25 the 21st of July, 1995. So first let's go to the 10th of July, 1995, and
1 do you recall whether you were in Srebrenica on that day?
2 A. On the 10th of July, I travelled frequently between Srebrenica
3 and Potocari, so I was in both the compounds and in the town of
5 Q. In preparation for your testimony today, do you recall being
6 shown footage of people crowded outside of the Bravo Company compound in
7 Srebrenica on the 10th of July, 1995?
8 A. Yes, I saw it.
9 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'll now ask Ms. Stewart to play a
10 short portion of the Srebrenica trial video, 65 ter 28780. Time code
11 7 minutes, 45 seconds, to 8 minutes, 19 seconds of section V000-9265.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's P1147, Mr. Jeremy?
13 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you. And we stopped at 8 minutes, 19 seconds.
16 Q. Mr. Rave, firstly can you tell us the building that is depicted
17 in this clip?
18 A. That is the UN compound in Srebrenica.
19 Q. And on the 10th of July, 1995, were you aware of any refugees
20 inside of that UN compound?
21 A. On the 10th, we had no refugees inside of the compound.
22 Q. We saw on the subtitles to the clip that there were shouts to
23 block the road. Can you relate these comments to your own personal
24 experience in Srebrenica on the 10th of July?
25 A. Yeah, on the 10th of July, a lot of people were gathered in front
1 of the UN compound. All those people were very afraid that the UN would
2 leave the compound and go, for example, to Potocari and they wanted to --
3 that Bravo Company that was in the compound, that they stayed in
4 Srebrenica because for them that was the only safe place to go, and they
5 had the imagination that if the UN would leave Srebrenica, it would be
6 very worse for them.
7 Interesting is that on the night of the 10th and the 11th, we had
8 a meeting in the PTT building with Colonel Karremans and the civilian and
9 military leaders in the enclave, and at that night, we had to pass some
10 trees that they put on the road to block the road and we could with our
11 jeep pass by. But very -- it was very overcrowded, but they really
12 blocked the road to protect themselves and to let the UN stay in
14 Q. Moving to the 11th of July, 1995, in paragraph 18 of your
15 statement now in evidence as P1149, e-court page 4, you state that on the
16 11th of July, 1995, Major Boering and yourself departed the Bravo Company
17 compound for Potocari driving in a jeep full of refugees at about
18 1500 hours. Can you briefly describe the events that led up to your
19 departure from the Bravo Company compound to Potocari?
20 A. Well, then we have to go back to the night of the 10th. On the
21 11th -- I think, because at that moment Colonel Karremans informed the
22 military and the civilian leaders that if the VRS was still attacking
23 next morning the town of Srebrenica, there would be an air attack and
24 close air support to support our troops. When the UN was attacked and
25 Srebrenica was attacked, those air-strikes should take place. The next
1 morning, the commander of the Bravo Company sent forward some APCs to
2 check if the VRS was still attacking the town of Srebrenica. Well, that
3 happened. Tank rounds were fired towards our APCs, so we had, I think
4 around 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning, confirmation that the VRS was still
5 attacking the town of Srebrenica and also the UN.
6 At that moment I think there was a request for close air support
7 or maybe an air-strike. I really don't know exactly what
8 Colonel Karremans asked for. And -- but at least nothing happened. I
9 can remember that during that morning it was several times there was a
10 contact with the higher level in Tuzla and maybe also in Sarajevo to get
11 support to stop the VRS going forward to the town of Srebrenica, but
12 nothing happened. Then in the morning from the 11th, there was a very
13 tense situation. The ICRC and the MSF asked us to help evacuate the
14 hospital in Srebrenica. Well, we had no possibilities at all, but we
15 prepared some [indiscernible] on the compound of the Bravo Company that
16 if it was possible to get wounded people from the hospital to the Bravo
17 Company --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down a bit.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, of course. Thanks.
20 Maybe we could evacuate the wounded from the hospital via the
21 Bravo Company to the compound of Potocari where was our own medical
22 facility. During that morning, some wounded of the hospital managed to
23 come to the compound and to get into some trucks we separated. The
24 population of the town of Srebrenica tried to get on the compound because
25 that was for them the only safe place, and all the time a lot of shelling
1 was going on in the town. At the end of --
2 MR. JEREMY:
3 Q. So you mentioned that the population tried to get into the
4 compound on the 11th. Were they able to do that?
5 A. First, yes, but there were only a few people. We managed to get
6 them off the compound again, but after I think an hour or maybe an hour
7 and a half, they broke through the fence and came on the compound at, I
8 think, the end of the morning, so around noon.
9 Q. And you mentioned shelling around the compound. Were there any
10 particular shells that you recall?
11 A. Yeah, there was frequent shelling around the compound, but when
12 the refugees broke through the fence and were on the compound, we had a
13 big problem, of course, because we had no freedom of movement anymore.
14 The compound was overcrowded, and at that moment a mortar shell landed
15 between two APCs on the compound and we had some new casualties among the
16 local people, and we were able to bring some of them inside the UN
17 facility on that compound to give them medical treatment.
18 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'll again ask Ms. Stewart to play a
19 short portion of the Srebrenica trial video, P1147, time code 13 minutes,
20 48 seconds, to 14 minutes of section V000-9265.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. JEREMY: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. JEREMY: We've stopped at 14 minutes.
25 Q. Mr. Rave, can you briefly explain what we saw in that clip?
1 A. I don't know exactly what time it was, but when the refugees
2 broke through the fence, they entered the compound and also went on the
3 trucks that were on the compound to get the -- because they had the idea
4 when the UN is leaving, then we're leaving with them. And -- well,
5 everybody tried to get on that truck. I think at that moment we already
6 decided - and we, that I mean the commander of the Bravo Company
7 Mr. Boering and myself - that it was a situation that could not take too
8 long on the Bravo Company because we had no freedom of movement. We
9 couldn't do anything for them. The shelling in town was going on, so the
10 best option for us was to try to get the people in the direction of
11 Potocari because we also had a compound over there that was much bigger,
12 we had more facilities, and we tried to get people in that direction.
13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'll now ask Ms. Stewart to play
14 another clip again from P1147, time code 15 minutes, 24 seconds, to
15 16 minutes, 19 seconds, again of section V000-9265.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. JEREMY: [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. JEREMY: And we've stopped there at 16 minutes, 20 seconds.
20 Q. Mr. Rave, in a couple of sentences, could you describe what we
21 saw in that clip, please?
22 A. In this clip we can see that the overcrowded trucks from
23 Srebrenica came to the compound in Potocari. You can see the trucks
24 driving on the compound in Potocari and then going into the factory,
25 where the refugees stayed.
1 Q. In paragraph 18 of your statement - that's e-court page 4 - you
2 described the journey to Potocari and you referred to mortar fire
3 originating from VRS positions. You described this as "a deliberate
4 attempt to steer the refugees towards Potocari."
5 Can you please elaborate just a little on how you believe these
6 refugees were being steered towards Potocari?
7 A. When we managed - after we had air-strikes at that 2.00 or
8 something like that - to get the stream of refugees in the northern
9 direction, in the direction of Potocari, then there still was mortar fire
10 in that direction. There's only one big road from Srebrenica to
11 Potocari, and on both sides of the road there landed mortar shells. And
12 in my opinion, it was just to take care that -- there was shelling in
13 Srebrenica, there was shelling on both sides of the road, and in that way
14 they tried to steer the refugee stream in the northern direction of
15 Potocari. And I think that what also is important, when I remember well,
16 when we arrived in Potocari, north of the compound in Potocari there also
17 was shelling between the compound in Potocari and Yellow Bridge, so
18 the -- in the direction of Bratunac. So in my opinion, they would not
19 allow that refugees went further than Potocari.
20 Q. I'll now move to the evening of the 11th of July, and in
21 particular your -- the meetings that you attended at Hotel Fontana. The
22 first one was at approximately 8.00 p.m. on the 11th, and you discussed
23 this in paragraphs 23 to 28 of your statement, e-court pages 5 to 6. In
24 particular, in paragraph 25 of your statement you state that:
25 During the early part of the meeting, "General Mladic remained
1 upset, and for a few minutes I wondered if we would be taken outside and
3 I don't propose to play any of this footage again. The Court has
4 seen a fair proportion of it, but could you please explain why you felt
5 you might be taken outside and shot at that time?
6 A. Well, in the first place we didn't expect to see General Mladic
7 over there. We had no interpreter at that moment, so the beginning of
8 the conversation was also a little bit difficult. Colonel Jankovic was
9 used as an interpreter. After that, Petar, the interpreter came in, and
10 the way General Mladic started to examine in this -- first Colonel
11 Karremans, afterwards Major Boering and myself, about if we were -- we
12 were the ones who asked for the air-strikes, if we were responsible for
13 killing his soldiers. There were a lot of other threats, of course, that
14 if there were other air-strikes he would target the compound. He would
15 kill our hostages [sic]. He suggested that, offering a cigarette to
16 Colonel Karremans - I didn't smoke at that moment - "It will not be your
17 last cigarette. Do you want to see your family or your child and
18 children again? We were happy here before you came and now not any
19 longer. You've only one life, you don't want to lose it over here." All
20 those kind of threats in the first ten minutes, and especially because we
21 didn't know what to expect, that was rather tense. After that, it faded
22 away a little bit because then we got the impression that not we were the
23 targets but the Muslim population then.
24 Q. I'd now like to take you to the second meeting at Hotel Fontana
25 that you attended on the same evening of the 11th of July and which you
1 discuss in paragraphs 29 to 34 of your statement, e-court pages 6 and 7.
2 In particular, in paragraph 30 you describe an incident during which a
3 pig was slaughtered outside an open window. You state in particular that
4 in your opinion the incident was staged. Can you please elaborate a
5 little on why you believe that this incident was staged?
6 A. When we arrived over there we sat down. The meeting started and
7 I took some notes, and the meeting started at 11.00. At five minutes
8 past 11.00 somebody - and I think it was a soldier - was standing near
9 the window and the curtains. He opened the curtain, he opens a window,
10 and under that window, in my opinion, a pig was slaughtered. I looked
11 around and I saw no amazing faces at all. The only thing I saw that
12 Kosoric, who was sitting opposite me, was grinsing [phoen]. After - and
13 I don't know exactly how much time it took - and I think I said it might
14 be two but it might also be three or four minutes, the screaming of the
15 pig faded away. Then the soldier closed the window, shut the curtains,
16 and disappeared again. And there was no reaction at all from anybody.
17 And in my opinion, it was pure intimidation by slaughtering a pig and
18 then giving the impression: Well, what happens over there could also
19 happen to you. And then not I think towards the UN but more towards the
20 Muslim representative that was with us, Mr. Mandzic.
21 Q. Just to clarify, you said you looked around and you -- you said:
22 "I looked around and I saw no amazing faces at all."
23 What did you mean specifically by that?
24 A. Well, when you open in a rather small vicinity a window, hear a
25 pig screaming when it's slaughtered, and it was a terrible screaming,
1 then somebody should be amazed and somebody should look around and
2 somebody should ask: What's going on? But nobody reacted at all. So I
3 think in my opinion it was all preset and it was -- belonged to the show.
4 Q. Paragraph 31 of your statement you state that, among others,
5 Colonel Jankovic and Major Nikolic were present at this second meeting.
6 How were you able to recognise, to identify, each of these men?
7 A. Well, Major Nikolic, we dealt with him from the first moment on
8 we came into the enclave, so from the beginning of January. And
9 Colonel Jankovic, I don't know if he was introduced by name in the first
10 meeting or maybe in the second meeting, but of course when this statement
11 was made, I knew Colonel Jankovic rather well, I think, because I met him
12 during the period of the deportation of the local population several
13 times and it was, for me, an easy name to remember. And I don't know if
14 I heard the name on the first, the second -- or the second meeting
15 because I think on the second meeting some other representatives were
16 presented by name.
17 Q. I'd now like to take you to the 12th of July, 1995, and I'd like
18 to focus your attention on the events during that morning. In
19 paragraph 36 of your statement, e-court page 7, you state that:
20 "In the morning of the 12th, Serbian infantry advanced from the
21 north towards Potocari."
22 And in paragraph 37 you state that Major Franken placed DutchBat
23 soldiers around the DutchBat compound.
24 In connection with this I'd like to show you some footage, some
25 video footage, you were shown in preparation for your testimony today.
1 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I'll ask Ms. Stewart to play a
2 couple of minutes of footage from Exhibit P1147, time code 3 minutes,
3 8 seconds, to 5 minutes, 27 seconds, and that's from section V000-9266.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. JEREMY: And we finish there at 5 minutes, 27 seconds.
6 Q. Mr. Rave, did you recognise where this conversation that we just
7 saw in the video took place?
8 A. Yeah, it was on the road from Potocari towards Bratunac, the
9 north-western fence of the UN compound.
10 Q. And does this -- does what we saw in this footage relate to your
11 own experience on the morning of the 12th of July, 1995?
12 A. Yeah, I've not been in this situation because I was inside of the
13 compound, but it fits in the total picture that happened that morning.
14 Q. Staying with the morning of the 12th of July, I'd like to talk
15 about your -- talk to you about the organisation of the buses in
16 Potocari. And in paragraphs 38 and 39 of your statement, P1149, and
17 that's e-court page 7 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S, you describe how
18 after Colonel Karremans and Major Boering returned from the Hotel Fontana
19 meeting on the morning of the 12th of July, you and Boering went to
20 Bratunac to "sort out the problem of fuel and buses." You then returned
21 to Potocari after being told by Lieutenant Kosoric and Nikolic that the
22 buses were already in Potocari. On arriving back in Potocari, you found
23 that the buses were already there by 1300 hours. At this point, what
24 information did you learn about the organisation of these buses?
25 A. Well, because nothing really substantial was discussed in the
1 meeting of the morning, Major Boering and myself went to Bratunac and
2 tried to find somebody who could tell us what was arranged because it
3 wasn't clear for nobody. At the end, near the Hotel Fontana, Nikolic and
4 Kosoric showed up and told us to go back because buses were already there
5 and there was no discussion anymore. We went back. And when we left
6 nothing was over there, and then when we returned after, I think, half an
7 hour, three-quarters of an hour, the buses were standing in front of the
8 compound. And, well, in my opinion, it was all well arranged and,
9 although Mr. Mladic asked several times to Colonel Karremans if he was
10 able to arrange buses, he already had arranged them themselves. And also
11 the question about the fuel, we didn't get the question again about the
12 fuel. They had the buses and they had the fuel. So it was very well
13 arranged in advance.
14 Q. Do you recall how many buses were -- you found in Potocari that
16 A. I don't know when we returned if it were only buses, but I think
17 it were buses and trucks and approximately 15 standing in front of the
19 Q. Moving to the afternoon of the 12th of July and also the
20 13th of July, 1995, in paragraphs 39 to 50 of your statement, e-court
21 pages 7 to 10 in the English and 8 to 10 in the B/C/S, you describe your
22 observations on the separation of the male Muslims from their families in
23 Potocari, and you talk about what you describe as their deportation
24 during the 12th and the 13th of July, 1995. During this time, you
25 described seeing General Mladic in the afternoon of the 12th of July,
1 1995, and in paragraph 48 of your statement, e-court page 9 in the
2 English, 10 in the B/C/S, you referred to a conversation with Mladic on
3 the 13th of July, 1995.
4 Can you provide the Court with a little more detail about the
5 contents of the conversation or conversations you had with General Mladic
6 over this period?
7 A. Yeah, I think it was on the 12th when at that time General Mladic
8 went to the refugees and provided them with food. Of course, he was
9 there with a camera crew who filmed everything. All the time -- no, not
10 all the time. He was there for a long time, and we had the refugees on
11 the compound and we had refugees near the bus station. There were two
12 separate locations and people were not able to move from one location to
13 the other one. At one moment I was asked by a mother - and I don't know
14 if she was either on the compound or near the bus station - but her son
15 from, I think, 12 years old was on the other location and she would like
16 to be brought together with her son and asked me if it was possible for
17 me to arrange it. At that moment, General Mladic was around and I asked
18 him if it was possible to bring, I think, the guy to his mother, and,
19 well, that was no problem at all so from one location I took the boy and
20 brought him to his mother.
21 I think at that moment all the time when I was around because our
22 interpreters from the compound didn't dare to leave the compound, we used
23 Colonel Jankovic as an interpreter. So when we had questions for
24 Mr. Mladic at that moment, I asked Colonel Jankovic if he was able to
25 translate it.
1 I think it was on the 13th that I had the question with
2 General Mladic at that moment about our equipment. Lots of soldiers were
3 threatened to hand over their flak jackets, their weapons and other
4 equipment, and I asked him if he was able to stop those things. Well, of
5 course, his answer was that he would try to stop it, but also, of course,
6 nothing happened. When I asked him - because at that moment separation
7 from children and women and elderly men and the -- no, not elderly men,
8 the men between 17 and 60, 65, I think, were separated and brought into
9 the white house. On my question where they were brought to, because they
10 were brought away in separate buses, General Mladic told me that those
11 men were brought to Bijeljina. There was a big prisoner camp in
12 Bijeljina and possibly they would be exchanged for Serbian prisoners that
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to you, Mr. Witness?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the beginning of this lengthy answer you said:
17 "I think it was on the 12th when at that time General Mladic went
18 to the refugees and provided them with food."
19 Can you explain that a little bit further? What kind of food?
20 What amount of food? Did he do that personally or did he order that?
21 How was that done?
22 THE WITNESS: When I remember well, it was before the buses were
23 there but it also could have been when buses were already there, and
24 General Mladic and at least a body-guard, a film crew, and some other
25 Serbian soldiers went to the blocking positions that we arranged near the
1 bus station and there he provided the refugees with bread and I think
2 with some chocolate, but not in big amounts and it only happened when the
3 camera crew was there. The camera crew at one moment disappeared,
4 General Mladic disappeared, and then it stopped. So it was, in my
5 opinion, only a show to show that he was taking care of the refugees.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 MR. JEREMY:
8 Q. And you mentioned in your answer that you had a discussion with
9 General Mladic about the separations that were taking place. Were the
10 actual -- were separations actually taking place while Mladic was there
11 at the location of the compound in Potocari?
12 A. Yes, because General Mladic was there on the 12th and the 13th,
13 and all the time when buses drove up and down and refugees went into the
14 buses, men walked to the other side of the buses and were separated. So
15 the separation and the filling up of the buses was a continuing story.
16 Q. Mr. Rave, I'll move now to the 21st of July, 1995, and I'll
17 conclude my examination with a question or two about your departure from
18 the enclave on the 21st. In paragraph 62 of your statement, P1149,
19 e-court page 12, you refer to two photos taken at the border of the
20 Republika Srpska and Serbia. And you mention specifically Mladic,
21 Jankovic, and Petar in those photos. For clarity, I'd like to show you
22 those photos now so that you are able to identify those men because a
23 number of other additional men also appear in that photograph.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, does my recollection serve me well that
25 you still need them to be added to the -- that you --
1 MR. JEREMY: That's -- that's correct, Your Honours --
2 JUDGE ORIE: So that --
3 MR. JEREMY: -- and I'd like to take this opportunity to ask if
4 they can be added to the exhibit list .
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, any objections against the adding of the two
6 photographs to the 65 ter exhibit list?
7 MR. LUKIC: No objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then leave is granted to add them to the 65 ter
9 list. If you call them to the screen, then Madam Registrar will know
10 which 65 -- they have no 65 ter numbers yet because -- they do
11 provisionally because --
12 MR. JEREMY: We provisionally assigned 65 ter --
13 JUDGE ORIE: You provisionally assigned -- could you use those
15 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour, I'd like the court officer to
16 please show in e-court 65 ter 28756.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it's Exhibit P1132.
18 MR. JEREMY: Forgive me, I've read out the wrong 65 ter number.
19 It's 65 ter 28790.
20 Q. Mr. Rave, in your statement you identify three men in this photo.
21 You refer to General Mladic, Petar, and Jankovic.
22 MR. JEREMY: Perhaps the witness could be assisted so that he's
23 able to mark the photograph.
24 Q. And, Mr. Rave, I'd like you to mark a number 1 next to
25 General Mladic.
1 A. This is General Mladic.
2 Q. Could you place a 1 there, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And a 2 next to Petar.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And earlier in your testimony you referred to him as an
7 interpreter; is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And if you could identify Jankovic in that photo, please.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. With a number 3.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. JEREMY: And there's also a second paragraph that's part of
15 the same exhibit on the next e-court page.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But once we get it off the screen --
17 MR. JEREMY: Oh.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- then the markings will be lost. I suggest that
19 you tender them separately, but the photograph now marked by the witness
20 of which the 65 ter number was given a second ago, Madam Registrar, would
21 receive ...?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document as marked by the witness receives number
23 P1150, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P11150 is admitted into evidence -- I make a
25 mistake. I apologise. Yes, it is 1150 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. JEREMY: And could we go to the second photograph that's part
2 of 65 ter 28790, the second page in e-court, please.
3 Q. And again, Mr. Rave, using the same numbering, if you can
4 identify General Mladic with a number 1.
5 A. It doesn't work at this moment. Mr. Mladic, 1.
6 Q. Petar with a 2.
7 A. Petar, 2, and Jankovic is 3.
8 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I'd like to tender that
9 photograph as marked by the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked by the witness receives number
12 P1151, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P1151 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, that concludes my direct
15 examination of this witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
17 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
18 MR. LUKIC: I am ready, Your Honour. I just need half a minute
19 to organise myself.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Meanwhile, Mr. Rave, you'll -- after half a minute you'll be
22 cross-examined by Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic and
23 you'll find him to your left.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rave.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Just as my learned friend, I will start from the 10th of July,
3 1995. Did you hear that on that day, in the evening hours, a conflict
4 broke out between members of the BH army -- or rather, among members of
5 the BH army itself which resulted in casualties, both people dead and
6 killed -- wounded?
7 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D887 in e-court.
9 Q. This is your evidence in the Tolimir case on the 27th of October,
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 32 in e-court. That
12 should correspond to transcript page 6849. We need lines 11 through 23.
13 Q. There you were asked - and I'll read it in English so that you
14 get it correctly interpreted - I'll read in English.
15 [In English] I quote:
16 "'On Monday, 10th July, the commander of OP-M received orders
17 from the C-Company commander to co-ordinate with the BiH army. That same
18 evening, fighting broke out among the BiH army soldiers, resulting in
19 dead and wounded.'"
20 Then line 16 to 18, I quote:
21 "'When the two BiH army soldiers with the anti-tank weapons
22 attempted to prevent their departure, they were shot in the head by the
23 BiH army leader.'"
24 And we can find your answer in lines 22 to 23, when you said:
25 "The only thing I know about this incident is approximately what
1 is stated in this debriefing ..."
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I think it would be fair if you could
3 indicate the origin of the quotation you have put to the witness.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's D20 in Tolimir case, but we
5 were not able to locate the very document since we have some problems
6 with the electronics. And I had to quote from the transcript, from the
7 Tolimir trial.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At least it is stated --
9 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At least it is stated in lines 4 and 5 that:
11 "This is a report based on a debriefing which says, amongst other
12 things ..." and so on.
13 MR. LUKIC: I will clarify this with the witness. Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Evert, you are aware of the fact that the
15 debriefing took place based on what DutchBat soldiers who were in
16 Srebrenica had to say; right?
17 A. Yes, a debriefing took place, but I can't imagine that in my
18 debriefing I stated this. One thing that rings a bell is that somebody
19 was shot in the head and that one of the DutchBat soldiers was aware of
20 this and he reported it. But I don't think I reported this in my
21 debriefings. It might be from a debriefing from another DutchBat
23 Q. Thank you. I apologise if I --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: For the record --
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, sir, sorry.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted say for the record, it's Mr. Rave
2 not Mr. Evert, number 1. Number two, I think if you could make clear
3 that, in fact, this debriefing is not a debriefing of the witness but he
4 was being read this part.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I will.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that should be clarified at least. It should
7 be perfectly clear what you put to the witness, whether you put to him
8 what is his own words or whether it's someone else's words. If the
9 Prosecution could assist in any way to get hold of the debriefing report
10 and the actual -- one second. I'm ...
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Madam Registrar suggests that she might
13 be able to assist the parties. Something is on our screen now which -- I
14 don't know provided by whom at this very moment but ...
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think that Madam Registrar has located this
17 report, Mr. Jeremy, Mr. Lukic, and if you would like to use that, if you
18 have got the page reference, but I think in the Tolimir it refers to
19 paragraph 3.58. If you would like to -- Mr. Jeremy.
20 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Mr. President. Ms. Stewart tells me that the
21 document that Madam Registrar identified is on our 65 ter exhibit list as
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, Mr. Lukic, if you would like to use
24 that, it is on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.
25 Just say yes and then you will be assisted.
1 MR. LUKIC: I think that I'm finished, actually, with this
2 document. I just have this introductory question, but I will clarify
3 what you -- Your Honours think that I should clarify with this witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do that on the basis of the document --
5 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- which --
7 MR. LUKIC: Then can we --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- has been referred to in the Tolimir --
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Then can we have in the e-court 17353, but
10 since I didn't have this document in my hands, I don't know on which page
11 this paragraph is.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is paragraph 3 --
13 MR. LUKIC: 58.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- .58. I take it that it is a ... 3.58 is to be
15 found on -- beginning on e-court page 38. Was this 3.58? Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Rave, did you have an opportunity to read the paragraph? And
18 does this refresh your memory, in fact, that at the time you did hear
19 that one of your colleagues reported this incident?
20 A. I think when we returned, that in August the debriefing of all
21 DutchBat soldiers started and, in my opinion, this is paragraph on a
22 summary of all the debriefings. So I don't remember anything more than I
23 told you. And one of the soldiers might have told this in his
24 debriefing, but ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think it's clear it does not appear as a
1 quote from this witness in paragraph 3.58 in this report. I think that
2 is what we wanted to know for sure and it has been established.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I think it's time for
4 our break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it indeed is. We will take a break and we
6 resume after the witness has left the courtroom, and he's invited to
7 follow the usher, and we will resume after that at 20 minutes past 12.00.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom,
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rave, could we -- can we go on now?
17 A. Yes, thanks.
18 Q. Immediately preceding the 10th of July, do you know that members
19 of the BH army opened fire on Serb positions wearing blue caps and
20 therefore looking like UNPROFOR members?
21 A. I know that some fights were going on between the BiH and the VRS
22 soldiers, but I'm not aware that BiH soldiers wore blue caps.
23 Q. Did you have any reports at the time that members of the BH army
24 opened fire on Republika Srpska army positions from the vicinity, from
25 the immediate surroundings, of the observation post of the DutchBat?
1 A. When the VRS started to attack the enclave, BiH soldiers went to
2 the vicinities of the UN OPs, opened fire towards the VRS, and tried to
3 involve the UN in the fights towards the VRS.
4 Q. Did you receive reports that members of the 28th Division of the
5 BH army opened fire from the town of Srebrenica itself in those days?
6 A. No. The only thing I know is that the VRS opened fire towards
7 the town of Srebrenica especially with tanks, mortars, and other heavy
8 weapons and not the other way around.
9 Q. You were in Srebrenica on the 10th of July, 1995; correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now, with Ms. Stewart's
12 assistance, see 65 ter -- or, in fact, today it's become an exhibit
13 already, a Prosecution exhibit, P1147, more specifically the section
14 V000-9265. That is a video-clip beginning at 5 minutes, 25 seconds,
15 through 6 minutes, 35 seconds. This is a video-clip that was made by a
16 Muslim from Srebrenica and we will now have a chance to see this 1 minute
17 and 10 seconds. Can we please play it.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank Ms. Stewart for this.
20 Q. This video-clip was presented by the Prosecution as having been
21 made on the 10th of July, 1995. Are you familiar with the location where
22 this petrol station is in Srebrenica?
23 A. Yes, I know where it is.
24 Q. How far was your Bravo Company and your compound from this petrol
25 station in Srebrenica? So what is the distance between Bravo 4 and the
1 petrol station?
2 A. Well, I can't exactly say what the distance was, but it's not too
4 JUDGE ORIE: But is that by a couple of hundred metres?
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's --
6 JUDGE ORIE: A couple of kilometres? I mean, "not too far" is a
7 relative concept.
8 THE WITNESS: Not more than a couple of hundred metres.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And "a couple" means anything between 200 and ...?
10 THE WITNESS: I would say between 3- and 700 metres, but I even
11 don't know exactly -- I know the spot, but if it was north of the
12 compound of the Bravo Company or south of it, so ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Can you determine which direction this mortar
16 was fired in based on the position of the mortar itself?
17 A. As far as I see it now, they are firing in the southern
19 Q. The civilians that we see in the video-clip and that you saw in
20 Srebrenica on that day, did they show any desire to leave Srebrenica or
21 was it rather that they were organised in some way by someone or forced,
22 even, to do so?
23 A. During the day I saw a lot of civilians in the town of Srebrenica
24 just running around, staying in the town of Srebrenica and not knowing
25 where to go. In the evening of the 10th, when we went to the PTT
1 building, we had to pass a crossroad that was a dirt road in the
2 north-western direction. There we saw a huge column of Muslim men from
3 which a lot of them were military uniforms going in the north-western
4 direction. But for the rest, on the day itself, it was unorganised and
5 people were just running around and trying to find a safe spot for
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at
9 1D887 in e-court.
10 Q. Again, this is your evidence in the Tolimir case.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need page 67, which is
12 transcript page 6884. Can we zoom in on lines 12 through 14, or rather,
13 we just need line 14.
14 Q. Where you say, [In English] I quote:
15 "I think that most of the people wanted to be evacuated."
16 [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that most people,
17 civilians, the people who remained in Srebrenica, wanted to be evacuated
18 from Srebrenica?
19 A. I think we're mixing up now some things. We were talking about
20 the 10th. On the 10th the people were still in Srebrenica. They were
21 gathering in the vicinity of the UN compound. And I think that when
22 we're talking about this document, we're talking about the 12th or the
23 13th when the people already left, because they didn't want to leave.
24 They wanted to stay on the UN compound in Srebrenica. The 11th in the
25 morning or in the afternoon we managed to get them in a northern
1 direction, and after that, this is the text we can use but not on the
3 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate it.
4 Is it correct that some people tried to prevent civilians from
5 leaving Srebrenica and moving towards Potocari, that there were some men
6 in uniform who were milling among the civilians and who prevented or
7 tried to prevent the people from leaving Srebrenica?
8 A. I don't have the impression that on the 10th there were men in
9 uniform who tried to prevent people leaving Srebrenica. I think they
10 decided themselves to stay where they were because, as I told you before,
11 at one moment on the 11th we had to arrange that they went upwards
12 towards Potocari. But on the 11th they had only one goal: Stay near
13 their own houses or stay on the UN compound, which was a safe place for
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now once again request that
17 Ms. Stewart assist us. Video P1147, the same video-clip, V000-9265, from
18 the eighth minute, 5 seconds, through 8 minutes, 10 seconds. So just a
19 very brief 5-second-long video-clip. Please observe especially the
20 bottom of the video-clip. You see the sentence there where they are
21 trying people to stop. We see that this person in civilian clothing
22 said: C'mon, stay. Where are you going? Addressing the mass of people.
23 And according to this video-clip this was recorded on the 10th of July,
25 A. But what do you want to prove with this, that there is somebody
1 who is telling the people: Stay here? Well, it's possible.
2 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the video, please.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. At the bottom of the screen you can see a man with a Kalashnikov,
6 a uniformed man.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just replay these five
8 seconds, please.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The man moving from left to right, do you see him?
12 A. Yes, I --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: From left to right.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So could you observe that on the 10th in Srebrenica there were
16 civilians and armed soldiers and they were mingled together; correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I also see, Mr. Lukic --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- somebody with a blue helmet having a -- three
21 of them, but one of them definitely having something that looks like a
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I don't know the other person that you showed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Near the place where this man with weapons moving around, this
2 was in a location that was very close to the Dutch Battalion compound in
3 Srebrenica itself; correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And these men in blue helmets, they're members of the DutchBat;
9 A. That's correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I still was unable to identify where the
11 man with a Kalashnikov is. Could we take it perhaps shot by shot --
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that -- here we see that someone says: Come
14 on, stay. Well, where are you going?
15 MR. LUKIC: Forward a couple of seconds ahead. One more, one
16 more, one more. Okay, stop. This is --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see -- let me see --
18 MR. LUKIC: In a green uniform [overlapping speakers] --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that -- are you referring to a person whose
20 head is visible more or less on the red blouse of a lady?
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have identified. Is that what you saw as
23 well, Witness?
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I saw the same.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have -- is it a Kalashnikov? Can you
1 identify that?
2 THE WITNESS: No, I can't identify this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Can you identify at all that it's a fire weapon?
4 THE WITNESS: It seems to be a long rifle weapon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we perhaps go a few seconds back again
6 so that I can see the sequence because now I know what to look for. Yes,
7 thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 [Interpretation] Now could we have the same video from the
10 13th minute, 48 seconds, through 14 minutes, 10 seconds. Can we just
11 pause briefly at the 14th minute, 48 seconds.
12 Q. Can you see here -- we can hear a voice in the background but you
13 can also see it on the transcript. It says:
14 "Man, our army went up there."
15 And we see some people board or are trying to get on the bus.
16 And this is on the compound itself in Srebrenica. This is the situation
17 where you described that the civilians had broken through the fence and
18 moved into the compound area and tried to board these trucks; correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 MR. LUKIC: Can we play the video now, please.
21 THE WITNESS: But can I add something? Because I see a shot now
22 and I think the shot is made from outside the compound point towards the
23 compound and men of "our army went up there," that could be everywhere,
24 not on the truck. Because I think you suggest now that men of the army
25 went up there, that they went in the UN truck, but I think that's jumping
1 to the conclusion because when somebody is taking --
2 MR. LUKIC:
3 Q. Sorry, sorry, I'm not suggesting that. It's completely different
4 sequence. It's --
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. -- after that -- couple of minutes after the video we saw before.
7 So we have to concentrate with this and I don't claim it's the same
9 MR. LUKIC: Can we move it -- play it now, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We can hear a voice speaking and we can see on the video itself:
13 [In English] "You see our army is up there, all around."
14 [Interpretation] This is some local person from Srebrenica
15 speaking. Is it correct that at that point in time the army --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm not yet aware of who is speaking.
17 You put that to the witness, but perhaps you could ask the witness
18 whether he knows who is speaking.
19 MR. LUKIC: I doubt that, that he might know but --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But --
21 MR. LUKIC: -- because it was obviously translated from B/C/S.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and let me then just -- one second, please.
23 MR. LUKIC: We can play it again, if you want, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's not it. But you say, are only local
25 people from Srebrenica speaking B/C/S?
1 MR. LUKIC: No. But on the -- I can clarify whether there was
2 any Serb soldiers on the 10th in Srebrenica.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about soldiers yet. You assume a
4 lot of things and the basis for such assumptions is not yet clear.
5 Whether the witness could help us, you may of course give it a try.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rave, do you know who made this video-clip
8 and do you know who is speaking here? I assume you don't but can you
9 please answer?
10 A. No, I really don't know who made it and who is speaking there.
11 Q. On the 10th of July, 1995, the Army of Republika Srpska was not
12 in Srebrenica; correct? Not in this area where this video was made from?
13 A. No, they still were in the southern part of the area and in the
14 southern part in the outskirts of the town of Srebrenica, not in this
16 Q. Did you know how many Serbs at that point in time lived in
17 Srebrenica? Were there any Serbs living in Srebrenica other than one
18 woman and her disabled son who were killed before this?
19 A. No, I've no idea that there lived any Serb in Srebrenica during
20 that period.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just intervene. I see Mr. Lukic asked
22 you that:
23 "On the 10th of July, 1995, the Army of Republika Srpska was not
24 in Srebrenica."
25 Are you able to see from this footage the date when this was
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's the date of the 11th, but as you know,
3 on a video camera you can change dates and timings.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. But the fact is what we see here is the
5 11th, not the 10th?
6 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, as I told you on the 11th --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking for your opinion. I'm saying what
8 we see on the picture is the 11th, not the 10th.
9 THE WITNESS: It should be the 11th because on the 10th there
10 were no refugees on the compound. And we see them now on the compound,
11 so it must be the 11th.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And what about the presence of the VRS or Serbs on
14 the 11th?
15 THE WITNESS: On the 11th the VRS was in the southern part. As I
16 told you, we had blocking positions about in the middle of the town of
17 Srebrenica. In the southern part the Serbs were there moving northwards.
18 So there were Serbs in Srebrenica, but not in this area because this is
19 already the northern part of the town of Srebrenica.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Is it correct that BH army members were not always easy to
22 recognise because -- or to distinguish because they wore civilian
24 A. Because there was no standing army and hardly none of them wore a
25 uniform, now and then only parts of a uniform, we knew them by person and
1 not by military outfits or ranks or those kinds of things.
2 Q. Thank you. What knowledge, if any, do you have about members of
3 the 28th Division of the BH army mingling with civilians who were
4 moving -- who had set off towards Potocari?
5 A. I have no idea if members of the BiH army were in the stream of
6 refugees because I don't think that men in uniform went upwards to
7 Potocari. Most of them in uniform disappeared in the evening of the
8 10th to the 11th in a north-western direction. I can't remember having
9 seen people in uniform going northwards towards Potocari.
10 Q. We established that some members of the 28th Division of the BH
11 army did not wear uniforms. We can assume then, that if they were moving
12 with civilians and if --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand one word.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. -- can you exclude the possibility that among the civilians that
16 were moving towards Potocari there were also members of the BH army?
17 A. No, I can't exclude it because there were men in an age that
18 normally they would be in the army. They were wearing civilian clothes,
19 so there's always a possibility that there were members or former members
20 from the BiH army among those men going upward to Potocari.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you look at the transcript, you'll see
22 that the interpreters missed one of your words. If you would read your
23 question again and tell us what is missing.
24 MR. LUKIC: I think that this part has sense. I wasn't reading
25 so that's the question I wanted to pose.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can move on.
2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
3 [Interpretation] Can we now briefly see in e-court 18217, that's
4 the 65 ter number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we further look at that, Witness, could you
6 tell us the following if we saw the text that is: "You see, our army is
7 up there and around." At the 11th of July, were there still positions
8 held by the BiH forces?
9 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, not because I think we were the only
10 ones who had the blocking positions in the town of Srebrenica and the BiH
11 army already were gone.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: That's my opinion because I was on the compound and
14 not outside of the compound, so I really can't confirm that they weren't
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the information you had was such that you
17 thought they would not be there anymore?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have one follow-up
23 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct that the Muslim army only around
24 1500 hours on the 11th of July set out towards Jaglici? Was it at 1500
25 hours they were close to this location and around it?
1 A. On the 11th on 1500 hours I was on the compound of the
2 Bravo Company in Srebrenica and I really don't know if there were parts
3 of the BiH army in that vicinity, as I just told Mr. Oric [sic]. I
4 really don't know.
5 Q. Thank you. Now please take a look at this document on the
6 screen, the one that speaks about general mobilisation. It is stated
7 that on the basis of the order of the Presidency of the Republic of BH,
8 general mobilisation is being declared. This is a document from 1992,
9 and it was stated that general mobilisation is being declared of all
10 able-bodied citizens from 16 to 60 years of age for the purpose of
11 joining Territorial Defence units, public security stations, civilian
12 protection units, and compulsory work service.
13 Do you know about Srebrenica, whether general mobilisation had
14 been declared there for all from age 16 to 60?
15 A. I can't see the date of the document. I can see the
16 investigation date, it was 2004, but I can't the date of the document.
17 And if it might have been in 2002, of course there's a --
18 Q. [In English] 1992, the document is from 1992.
19 A. 1992. Well, that was three years before the UN entered the
20 enclave and of course it might be possible that I don't know and I'm not
21 aware of this.
22 Q. I'm just asking if you are aware, not --
23 A. Oh.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if you might just help me, how do we
25 determine that the date of this document is 1992? Where do we find that?
1 MR. LUKIC: Since there is no date, Your Honour, on the document
2 but it says -- it's talking only about TO, Territorial Defence, and
3 afterwards there was no TO that there was Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So
4 having this TO then we know that it's from 1992 and I wasn't able to
5 locate the date as well. That's why I wasn't claiming that it's -- the
6 document is from 1995.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: When in 1992 did the TO come to an end?
8 MR. LUKIC: Probably summer 1992.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Instead of guessing, is there any shared views on
10 when the TO ...
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not right now, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But it seems something that perhaps you could agree
13 on as --
14 MR. LUKIC: I hope -- I'm sure that we --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- many other matters --
16 MR. LUKIC: -- can agree on that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if in addition to that you could agree on a few
18 more matters which -- then which apparently are not in dispute, it would
19 be highly appreciated. Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Now we are going to deal with the Dutch Battalion in more
22 specific terms. Is it correct that your battalion, the Dutch Battalion
23 in Srebrenica, could not ask for support from NATO aircraft unless they
24 were attacked themselves by one of the warring parties?
25 A. We could, of course, ask support as many times as we would, but
1 of course there must be reason to ask support. The decisions to provide
2 us with air support in whatever way was on the higher levels and not even
3 in Tuzla, but it was in Sarajevo and even in Zagreb, I think.
4 Q. However, is it correct that you yourselves had to be attacked or
5 under threat, you as a battalion? Or could you ask for support also if
6 the VRS were to attack the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
7 A. I can't answer that question correctly because I really don't
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D887, could we please have a look at
10 that now.
11 Q. That is your testimony in the Tolimir case on the
12 27th of October, 2010.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 51 in e-court and it is
14 supposed to correspond to page 6868 of the transcript in the Tolimir
15 case. We need lines 13 through 22.
16 Q. I'm going to read this out in English. From line 13, quote:
17 [In English] "Did soldiers and officers of the DutchBat on the
18 ground know that without an attack by the Bosnian Serb army against
19 UNPROFOR positions there could be no close air support, in other words,
20 the bombing of Bosnian Serb army positions?"
21 And your answer from line 17 was:
22 "Yes, I think this was common knowledge, and that was also
23 communicated by the battalion staff. We were attacked, and this was one
24 of the things we discussed this morning before when Captain Hageman went
25 forward to see if the VRS attack went on. He was shot at. So he got a
1 confirmation that the UN was attacked, and that was enough for close air
3 A. I think we're mixing up again two things. Talking about air
4 support in general or talking about air support in this specific case,
5 because in this case we're referring to an ultimatum that was sent to the
6 parties on the 10th of July and in that ultimatum was the statement that
7 when UN positions were attacked that it would be possible for the
8 battalion to ask for air support. So in this specific case it was clear
9 that when the blocking positions were attacked or UN persons were
10 attacked we were able to ask for close air support.
11 Q. [Interpretation] My question, the one that I don't think I've
12 received an answer to yet, is the following: Could you ask for air
13 support if the Army of Republika Srpska were to attack the positions of
14 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Or was the prerequisite that UNPROFOR
15 members would have to have their security and safety compromised?
16 A. The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had no positions because they
17 didn't exist as an army during the period we were there. As I told you,
18 when tensions got stronger, parts of the BiH soldiers went in the
19 vicinity of the UN OPs and tried to get fire on the UN OPs so that when
20 the UN OPs were attacked, they were involved, and of course there was a
21 possibility for us to ask for air support. It was of course not the way
22 that if there were units of the BiH, as far as you can speak about units,
23 that we protect them with our close air support. We were there to
24 protect the enclave, to deter attacks, and to protect ourself, and not to
25 protect the BiH army with supporting them with close air support.
1 Q. Thank you. Thank you for this clarification. On the
2 10th of July, 1995, your forces stood before the advancing forces of the
3 Army of Republika Srpska and they blocked the access to Srebrenica; is
4 that right?
5 A. We tried to block because we had our OPs already in the southern
6 part of the enclave, and the VRS went forward all the time. And we had
7 to move backwards with our OPs and we weren't able because we had no
8 ammunition or anything else enough to deter the attack in a proper way.
9 So -- but the only thing we could do was try to block the VRS when they
10 attacked as much as possible and to gain as much as possible time also
11 for the higher echelons eventually to take action.
12 Q. Is it correct that you first asked for air support on the
13 10th of July, 1995, but that you did not get it, and it was only after
14 that that Mr. Franken issued an order to block the road where the Serb
15 units were advancing?
16 A. We were blocking the roads already after the fall of OP Echo in
17 the south. We made several blocking positions or OPs, whatever you can
18 call them, and I think that the first time when we were attacked on the
19 10th, that physically the VRS attacked UN positions, in my opinion - but
20 I'm not sure because I didn't do it myself - that there was a question
21 for close air support on the 10th.
22 Q. In the evening, on the 10th, you had a meeting with
23 Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Karremans. Somewhere it says
24 "Lieutenant-Colonel" and somewhere it says "Colonel." At the time was
25 Mr. Karremans a lieutenant-colonel? Is that right?
1 A. As a battalion commander he was a lieutenant-colonel.
2 Q. In the evening, did you attend a meeting with Lieutenant-Colonel
3 Karremans with the representatives of the civilian and military
4 authorities of Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Is it correct that that evening, Mr. Karremans promised the
7 representatives of the Muslim military and civilian authorities that the
8 Serb positions would be bombed and that that would not only be close air
9 support; rather, there would be heavy bombing of the Serb positions?
10 A. Yes. He told the civilian and the military authorities that when
11 the attacks - as was stated in the ultimatum - was going on, the next
12 morning there would be a possibility for an air-strike, so a heavy
13 bombing of a part in the terrain, and possibility for close air support.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can hardly hear
15 Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: We have some noise --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the interpreters have difficulties
18 hearing you. There is something technically -- there is a kind of echo
19 on the line. And since I don't like to hear myself again -- yes, and it
20 changed halfway, then it went back to a different level. Are there
21 any ...
22 THE INTERPRETER: Can we check microphones on the accused bench.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
24 No, apparently there isn't.
25 I still hear a kind of a rumble, a kind of -- could everyone
1 switch his microphone off to see whether that sound remains.
2 When I just opened my microphone, nothing special happens. Could
3 the microphone of the witness be switched on.
4 THE WITNESS: This is the one?
5 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the microphone of the witness be replaced by
8 another one.
9 THE WITNESS: I think it's over.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And your microphone is still on?
11 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move on.
13 THE WITNESS: Problem solved.
14 MR. LUKIC: That's fine. It's fixed.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Can we go on now?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
17 microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. At this same time, did your battalion receive orders to open fire
20 at Serb units? I'm not asking about you personally but the battalion as
21 a whole.
22 A. I am not aware of that because I was not in that line of
24 Q. Now let us take a look at what Mr. Franken said at the Tolimir
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D885 is what we need. That's the
2 trial transcript, page 71. It should correspond to transcript page 3473
3 in the Tolimir trial. From line 5 up to line 10, that's what we need.
4 Q. Question, [In English] I quote:
5 "Tell me, when did you issue the green order?
6 "A. That must have been the evening of the 9th of July.
7 "Q. ... does that mean that, from then on, your soldiers have no
8 restrictions with respect to the use of the weapons that they had at
9 their disposal?
10 "A. That's correct."
11 [Interpretation] Do you know that on the 9th of July, 1995,
12 Mr. Franken issued the green order? And can you tell us what the green
13 order is?
14 A. I know that Mr. Franken gave a green order. It might have been
15 on the 9th, that might be possible, but because I was not in a fighting
16 unit but always in the negotiation position, I didn't even read this
17 order because it was more for the both companies, Charlie and the Bravo
18 Companies, that were to deal with this and, of course, the battalion
19 staff on the compound in the operation room. But I didn't read it
21 Q. Can you tell us what a green order is, do you know?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness also explain to us what his
23 understanding of a green order is because you asked him and you may be
24 interested in his answer.
25 MR. LUKIC: I am, I just repeated it, but you were talking with
1 Judge Fluegge.
2 THE WITNESS: A green order is not a common word in the
3 communications, but in this case, I would say that all the orders we used
4 as UNPROFOR were blue orders and we acted as UNPROFOR. In my opinion,
5 this green order does only mean that we stop being visible, being only
6 deterring attacks, but going into a real war situation and firing against
7 the enemy that attacks us and more in a green way than in a blue way.
8 Because in an UNPROFOR situation, I don't think that we were able to go
9 in really fighting a war. And when you want to go into the situation
10 that you act as real soldiers, then you have to go -- to do it in a green
12 It's a little bit difficult for me to explain what the real
13 difference is between green and blue because the green order doesn't
14 exist. It's just an order. And we switched a little bit more from blue
15 towards green, and I think that's why it was called a green order.
16 Because normally, as you know, the positions we were on, in an OP, for
17 example, was on the top of the hill with a lot of light, white vehicles,
18 white markings on everything, so that's not a military position. That's
19 a sitting duck who is looking around. And when you have to fight a war
20 and defend yourself, then you go in another mode.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We'll get to that, the platoon that you were in. We have some
23 documents here too, but this is what I'm going to ask you. Would you
24 agree with me that you did know at that point in time that your battalion
25 was actually in a combat position and that it actually started firing at
1 the Army of Republika Srpska?
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's a few questions together. Could you split
3 up, please, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: I will. Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Did you know, did anyone inform you, did
6 Mr. Franken inform you that the position of your battalion in the
7 Srebrenica enclave had been changed and that the rules of using the
8 weapons that you had available were changed too?
9 A. I have to answer the question in yes and no. I know that our
10 role changed, but I also know that in -- as far as I remember, the order
11 was not directly to fire on the VRS soldiers, but to fire overhead.
12 Because we were in the minority, we had no possibilities to go into a
13 real fight, so the only thing was to try to deter, warn them, and give
14 them the warning by firing overhead that they had to stop. And I don't
15 think that there was an order, as far as I know, directly to attack the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek some clarification there as well. Part
18 of your answer suggests - that's at least what I hear - that it was
19 firing -- returning fire if they would not stop, unless I misunderstood
20 that. Whereas at the end you say -- that there was no -- I don't think
21 there was an order directly to attack the VRS.
22 Now, we have two issues apparently. The one is whether or not to
23 fire and the second is whether or not to attack or to return an attack.
24 Could you, in your answer, distinguish between these two elements of what
25 you told us?
1 THE WITNESS: When you are directly personally attacked, either
2 on person or in a vehicle, then you have the possibility to try to stop
3 the attack on those vehicles, on those persons. When an attack is going
4 on from front -- from the enemy, as we call it from this moment on, I
5 think, we were not able to stop them because we hadn't the vehicles, we
6 hadn't the ammunition, we hadn't the weapons to stop them, so the order
7 was to try to deter the attack by firing overhead, warning them, and
8 warning them by stopping. The other possibility was, of course, and that
9 was in the other stage, that we asked for close air support. The UN was
10 attacked, we didn't have the means ourselves to defend ourselves enough,
11 so we asked for close air support and then we got a direct attack on the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Was there -- were you allowed in any way to fire at
14 whomever without you being fired at before that?
15 THE WITNESS: No, before that it wasn't possible because only
16 when you were attacked yourself or somebody else and you had to stop it,
17 then you were able to fire.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you ever see that order?
21 A. I didn't see the green order.
22 Q. Would it be correct that Mr. Franken knew better what kind of
23 order he had issued?
24 A. Yeah, because he was the one who organised the operational part
25 of the whole party.
1 Q. Thank you. We will continue shortly, but we have to take the
2 break now because this is our time for the regular break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break, but could we first invite
4 the witness to leave the courtroom. We resume in 20 minutes from now.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes from now means 20 minutes to 2.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
10 Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to where we are in
11 terms of time?
12 MR. LUKIC: I can see that I have a lot. I think that I can
13 finish maybe a bit before the time I asked for since this witness for us
14 is very important to explain some crucial things from those crucial days
15 in Srebrenica.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and again your estimate was?
17 MR. LUKIC: Five hours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Five hours. And you think you could -- okay. Then
19 we'll -- but you say there's even a little chance that you would finish
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait and see.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. We were discussing what sort of order Mr. Franken had issued.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us to look at 1D885. I
5 think that we have the document on our screens. We need page 51 in the
6 e-court, which should correspond to page 3453. That's the transcript
7 page from the Tolimir case. We need lines 12 onwards.
8 Q. I will be reading a larger portion.
9 [In English] "Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, did the green
10 order mean that an engagement in combat operations should be undertaken
11 regardless of what was contained in blue, red, and other orders?
12 "A. I do not know whether I understand your question correctly,
13 but it meant that, for instance, the rules of engagement given to us
14 before as a UN unit, one of our problems we were only to use our weapons
15 in self-defence, were ruled out and we went back to the rules of
16 engagement of an army, any army, in combat.
17 "Q. Thank you for clarifying this. Can you tell us now, please,
18 were you already a legitimate target of those whose lives you threatened
19 through these combat operations, as you described them?
20 "A. As of the issuing of the green order, we were in combat with
21 the VRS, and the VRS was a target for us, and in fact the opposite is
22 realistic and true as well."
23 [Interpretation] Do you agree that Mr. Franken had -- was in a
24 better position to be informed of the situation and have a better
25 assessment of what the situation was like after the green order was
1 issued? And I'm referring to the situation that the DutchBat found
2 itself in after the order was issued.
3 A. I think the order was issued by Mr. Franken himself, so I think
4 he took the decision together with Colonel Karremans to issue this order.
5 And in a better position, well, I think that they took the decision to
6 protect their own unit and, as much as possible, the people of the
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to read something from page
10 81 of the same document which should correspond to -- that's page 81 in
11 e-court. It should correspond to page number 3483 of the transcript from
12 the Tolimir case, where General Tolimir asked Mr. Franken from line 22
13 through to the end of the page and we have to move on to the next page up
14 until line 8.
15 Q. I'd like to show you what I will base my question on. Line 22:
16 [In English] "Q. And was it within your mandate to destroy the
17 weapons of the Army of Republika Srpska and to go to war with the VRS
18 after the green order had been issued ...?
19 "A. No, not within the mandate, but then again, my mandate
20 was" - and we have to go to another page, and I quote again - "changed
21 significantly the very moment the UN ordered me to defend Srebrenica, and
22 that was the cause why I gave that green order in that sequence it was.
23 So there's a period of mandate being till the order of the UN to my
24 battalion to defend the city, and after that, the rules of engagement,
25 et cetera, all restrictions on the use of weapons, were gone because that
1 goes with the order to defend something. I can't defend something by
2 sweetly talking with everybody and standing -- just standing there. I
3 had to use and was authorised to use my weapons."
4 [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that the DutchBat, after
5 the order was issued, and I mean the green order, was at war with the
6 Army of Republika Srpska and that VRS members were a target for the
8 A. I think that you state now that we were in a war, yes, we were in
9 a war because we were attacked as being in a war, and I think we tried to
10 defend ourselves and the population of the enclave with all the means we
11 had - and that wasn't too much. But of course you get a situation that
12 you can speak of a war situation, but it was not declaring a war towards
13 anybody. We just got into it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- we are talking about apparently two orders, one
17 order by the UN that the mandate was changed and a green order. We are
18 talking about it. I haven't seen any order. Is there any recording,
19 written or otherwise, of the one order, the UN order, as the witness told
20 us, or the order issued by Mr. Franken?
21 MR. LUKIC: All I located by now was this testimony of
22 Mr. Franken and I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. LUKIC: A colleague of mine, Mr. Stojanovic, who was part of
3 two Srebrenica trials told -- just told me that he has never seen any
4 written order in this regard. Maybe that can be found somewhere in --
5 among US cables -- UN cables, but we haven't located it yet. We'll try
6 to locate those orders as much as we can.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if I -- if I understand what
8 Mr. Franken apparently has said - you quoted that - they were just in an
9 ordinary combat situation, which would mean that you would take
10 territory -- I mean, is that all involved? I've got no idea but --
11 MR. LUKIC: We'll have Mr. Franken in a couple of days here in
12 front of Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then we'll see what he tells us.
14 Were you ever informed about the green order and what it exactly
16 THE WITNESS: No, I know about the existence of the green order
17 and I know that we went into a kind of war situation, but I've never seen
18 the order and I've never seen exactly what was in it and what would be my
19 role in it. My mandate didn't change because we just went on with our
20 work. The only thing I think is the most important thing for the two
21 companies who had to do the operational part of the things, they got the
22 green order. And I think that the rest of the battalion just went on as
23 we did before the green order was issued.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now you've explained to us that, first of all, that
25 there's not the green order but there was an order you called the green
1 order of which you do not know the content exactly. Second, that one of
2 the consequences was to going more in a military situation, green -- more
3 the direction of green rather than blue, that you would be less visible
4 and that you would fire if there was any fire at you, either if you
5 identified the source of fire clearly that you would fire at that target
6 and, otherwise, if it was a broader kind of an attack that you would
7 fire --
8 THE WITNESS: Overhead.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- overhead. To your knowledge, was there anything
10 else in that order you were aware of?
11 THE WITNESS: No, I really don't know what else was in that
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. Do you know when the discussions began to reach an agreement
16 whereby the DutchBat would side with the BH army in the fighting against
17 the VRS?
18 A. There wasn't a real agreement against -- between the BiH and the
19 Dutch Battalion in fighting against the VRS. I know I was in a meeting
20 where Mr. Franken explained to the BiH leaders in the enclave that we
21 were sitting on the OPs, we would defend the OPs and try to deter as much
22 as possible attacks from the VRS towards the enclave. Of course, they
23 were aware where our OPs were and in what space there was no defence for
24 the enclave at all. So it wasn't said loudly, but they knew we were on
25 the OPs. They knew that there was a part of terrain between several OPs
1 that was not defended and, of course, they could take their own plans to
2 go into those gaps. They asked us several times that if we would leave
3 the OPs because we were attacked, just to inform them in time so that
4 they could take over the OPs. And of course that started already when
5 the OP Echo fell, they wanted -- the BH wanted to go forward and take
6 over the OPs.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at 1D888 in
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I meanwhile ask the following: You said they
10 requested that they would be informed if you would leave your OPs. Did
11 you do it? Did you agree that you would inform them?
12 THE WITNESS: No, because we would not leave the OPs abandoned.
13 It just happened when we were attacked and then left the OPs, but we
14 didn't inform them that we left the OPs. But there were so many people
15 in and around the OPs that they knew and they saw that we went back.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We see here a document issued by the
18 command of the 28th Division of the Srebrenica land forces. The document
19 was sent by Naser Oric and we'll see that on the next page.
20 Can we have that?
21 We'll see that he signed as commander brigadier and it's
22 addressed to the Chief of Staff Major Ramiz Becirovic. The letter was
23 sent on the 31st of May, 1995. And under 1 - this is page 2 - we see
24 that -- of course, since it's in the form of a telegram there is no
25 handwritten signature. We need page 1 again.
1 Q. And please focus on item number 1 where Naser Oric writes to
2 Ramiz Becirovic, the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division:
3 "You have to --" I quote:
4 "You have to create a situation, a test for the Dutch, to see if
5 they are genuinely prepared to shoot at the Chetniks alongside us."
6 This was the reason why I asked you whether you knew when
7 negotiations began between the DutchBat and representatives of the
8 commanders of the 28th Division to the effect that members of the
9 DutchBat would, together with members of the BH army, start fighting the
10 Army of Republika Srpska?
11 A. But what is your question?
12 Q. I think that I did put my question, though it was quite long --
13 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained why you put an earlier question to
14 the witness.
15 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, because I didn't get the answer on that part of
16 my question so that's why I have to -- why I had to repeat it.
17 THE WITNESS: I think you suggest now that on the 26th of May we
18 started to negotiate with the command of the 28th Division. We started
19 to talk to the military component in the enclave in the beginning of
20 January when we entered. And during this whole period, of course, they
21 tried to get advantage of us, to get their own freedom of movement, to
22 steer us in the direction they wanted. A good example is, for example,
23 the OP Bravo in the western part of the enclave, they wanted to decide
24 where we would put our OP. We didn't. And of course I think the game
25 they are talking about here was going on from the beginning of January
1 till the end, trying to get advantage from the battalion, trying to get,
2 it's possible, of course, as much information about the VRS, what was
3 going on, about what was going on outside the enclave, and about how the
4 UN would react on eventual attacks from the VRS.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. I would now like to discuss the night between the
7 10th and the 11th of July of 1995. During that night, a meeting was held
8 between the commanders of the DutchBat and the military and civilian
9 authorities in Srebrenica; is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Is it correct that the representatives of the Muslim authorities
12 in Srebrenica were promised by Colonel Karremans that should the Serbs
13 continue to advance towards Srebrenica, a mass-scale bombing would ensue,
14 bombing of the Serbian positions naturally?
15 A. I think I already answered the question. There was an ultimatum
16 and the ultimatum was that when the VRS continued attacking UN positions,
17 that there was a possibility for close air support and an air-strike.
18 And an air-strike does mean an airship with lots of weapons on board who
19 is able to destroy a square kilometre in the terrain. That was told that
20 was in the ultimatum. And it was promised that when the VRS continues
21 attacking Srebrenica and the UN, it would be asked to use those means.
22 And then I jump directly to the answer. We asked for it the next
23 morning when the VRS continued the attack, but we didn't get the answer.
24 Q. Why did I have to repeat the question? Do you know that this was
25 also part of the changed mandate of the United Nations in Srebrenica? We
1 had occasion to hear what Mr. Franken said, that one of the changes was
2 basically placing the DutchBat into combat mode, that's to say, combat
3 against personnel and assets. But what I'm asking you is: Are you aware
4 of the fact that, generally speaking, the UN mandate changed in the sense
5 that not just close air support would be requested but rather mass-scale
6 bombing of the Serbian positions?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the change of a mandate and any
8 mass-scale bombing, is the mass-scale bombing not part of the mandate for
9 the units the witness belonged to or is it?
10 MR. LUKIC: I'm asking if he knows about the change of the
11 mandate --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
13 MR. LUKIC: -- because I think that before they only could ask
14 for close air support.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, a mandate is, from my understanding, is
16 the task given and the means given to perform that task. That's my
17 understanding of what a mandate is. Now, bombing is, as far as I can
18 see, you need airplanes for that, and as far as I'm aware of, at least
19 the units there, DutchBat did not have such means. So therefore I'm a
20 bit confused about the change of the mandate. Do you mean the overall
21 UNPROFOR mandate? Do you mean the specific mandate for DutchBat? And
22 how do you link that to bombings? That's --
23 MR. LUKIC: How I do understand it is that before NATO could be
24 ordered only to bomb in the immediate vicinity of the confrontation
25 between UNPROFOR and VRS positions, obviously, since we heard before that
1 it was never considered to bomb Muslim positions. Now the mandate was
2 changed that you can bomb not only there but also in another parts of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. For example, attack --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now --
5 MR. LUKIC: That's why I asked him if he knows --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently --
7 MR. LUKIC: If he knows about the change of the mandate.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So you are talking about the mandate of the totality
9 of the --
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- the forces. Okay. Let's -- let that be clear --
12 MR. LUKIC: But of course I limit it only in regard to Srebrenica
13 if the gentleman knows.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: The general change in regard of Srebrenica. Probably
16 he does not know anything about Bihac --
17 JUDGE ORIE: My problem is the following, Mr. Lukic. If you are
18 talking about the mandate and you link that to bombing, then I would
19 expect someone to have planes to bomb. As far as I've heard, DutchBat
20 had no planes available, which means what mandate are you talking about,
21 the mandate of DutchBat or the UNPROFOR mandate for the whole of the
22 territory or the UNPROFOR mandate specifically for Srebrenica? I'm just
23 wondering what exactly it is that you want to know from this witness?
24 MR. LUKIC: I want to know from him if he heard about general
25 change of the UN mandate that affected DutchBat on the ground in
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Are you aware of any general change in the UN
3 mandate which had an effect on your functioning, the functioning of
5 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any change of the mandate. I'm
6 only aware of orders in the chain of command as to -- although stated in
7 the document that Mr. Franken said that he got the order, whatever it
8 might be, to defend Srebrenica. I've never seen this order, and I didn't
9 hear that there was a change in the mandate, not even that we went from
10 UN over to NATO.
11 MR. LUKIC:
12 Q. But you had to ask for the aerial support from NATO; right?
13 A. No, we had to ask -- we were not NATO troops. We had to ask
14 close air support in the UN line and, for me, the UN line ended in either
15 Tuzla or Sarajevo. But I think that the decision for close air support
16 was made in Zagreb and maybe not even in Zagreb. It might be even in
17 New York. So we asked in the UN line for the support and not in the NATO
19 Q. Fair enough. But you don't know how it functioned actually?
20 A. No.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Now that we are with this topic and we might go
22 back to it, General Mladic accused Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans of having
23 sought air-strikes. Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans told him, first of all,
24 that he wasn't the one who could make such a decision; is that right?
25 A. That's right. He had to demand and to ask for close air support
1 or air-strikes. He couldn't make the decision. He could just ask for it
2 and tell his higher level that what that was in the ultimatum was
3 violated. So that's it.
4 Q. But that step had to be taken? NATO aircraft would not proceed
5 to bomb unless there was one such request coming from the field; is that
7 A. When there is in the ultimatum that we have to prove that the VRS
8 is still attacking the UN, we send forward on the ground an APC and an
9 APC is attacked by a VRS tank, then we got enough proof to send it up in
10 the line, and they have to decide either we get close air support or
11 air-strikes or not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the ultimatum has been mentioned several
13 times. Could we inquire with the witness whether that ultimatum is
14 formalised anywhere, whether it's recorded anywhere, so that we know what
15 we're talking about.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Witness, you could answer that question.
18 THE WITNESS: I have not seen the ultimatum nor the green order
19 so --
20 JUDGE ORIE: But you say, "I have not seen the ultimatum."
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Where and when and by whom was that ultimatum made,
23 do you know?
24 THE WITNESS: No. Colonel Karremans made me aware of the
25 ultimatum and talked about the ultimatum and explained it to the Muslim
1 military and civilian leaders in the enclave.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: That was the only -- that's the only thing I'm
4 aware of of the ultimatum, and he explained that in the ultimatum was
5 what I've just told you. But I've never seen a written ultimatum.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that ultimatum was addressed to the
7 Bosnian Serb forces?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, also.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You say "also." To whom was --
10 THE WITNESS: No, it was to the Bosnian Serb forces and it was
11 explained to the Muslims in the enclave.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it an oral ultimatum? Was it made orally
13 or do you know?
14 THE WITNESS: No, it was a written ultimatum and I may find it in
15 my notes when it was brought to, I think, the OP Papa to hand it over in
16 the VRS line.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 I am looking to the parties whether there's any awareness of a
19 written document which contains the ultimatum.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. LUKIC: We have to check my ...
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I'm not. It's never been really contested,
23 but we can double-check.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is the ultimatum not contested or ...?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, it's never been contested. It's clearly part
1 of the history of this case and --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but, of course, the reason why I'm asking for
3 it because I'd like to know what it exactly says. If it's put on paper.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we can take a look. The higher-ranking
5 officers that are more involved in this have a clearer recollection, as
6 has been referred to already, but we'll take a good look for documents.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Then, Mr. Lukic, at the same time I'm looking at the clock.
9 Mr. Rave, we'll adjourn for the day and we'd like to see you back
10 tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the same courtroom. But before you leave,
11 I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in any
12 other way with whomever about your testimony, and irrespective of whether
13 that's testimony given today or testimony still to be given tomorrow.
14 You may follow the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
17 24th of April, Courtroom I, 9.30 in the morning.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
20 April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.