1 Wednesday, 24 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Judge Fluegge is, for urgent personal reasons, unable to continue
12 sitting in this case today, and it is likely of a short duration.
13 Judge Moloto and myself, we have decided that it would be in the
14 interests of justice to hear -- to continue the hearing of the case in
15 the absence of Judge Fluegge. And it can be foreseen that the same
16 situation will exist for the whole of this week. Of course, the Chamber
17 is aware that we cannot continue for more than five days in the absence
18 of Judge Fluegge.
19 Any matters to be raised?
20 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. I have two brief
21 matters. I'd ask that we go into private session for them, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 10227-10230 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Rave. I'd like to remind you that
9 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
10 beginning of your testimony. And Mr. Lukic will now continue his
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 WITNESS: EVERT RAVE [Resumed]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Rave.
16 A. Good morning.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday I did not tender 1D888. I
18 forgot to do that.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
20 microphones please be switched off. We can no longer hear Mr. Lukic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against admission of 1D888.
22 MR. JEREMY: No objections, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D888 receives number D274,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D274 is admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Could we briefly see 1D885 in e-court now. That is a transcript
5 from the Tolimir case. It is Mr. Franken's testimony. We need page 70,
6 which should correspond to 3472. That would be the transcript page.
7 Q. You will see here that when Mr. Tolimir asked him -- actually I'm
8 going to read this out in English, from line 13 onwards:
9 [In English] "Did you ask" -- I quote:
10 "Did you ask for specific targets to be stricken or did you just
11 ask for a blanket support?
12 "A. On the risk that it is getting technical, but we did both,
13 in fact. We gave all the hardware -- sorry, all the known targets being
14 guns and artillery and mortars and tanks, et cetera, we put them on the
15 list and gave them a free-for-all, a killing zone, so to say, directly
16 south of Srebrenica, and that is the area between the city of Srebrenica
17 and generally Zeleni Jadar."
18 [Interpretation] Are you aware that members of your battalion
19 provided intelligence as well, in terms of marking the positions of the
20 Army of Republika Srpska for future NATO air strikes.
21 A. I don't know if they provided the information for future NATO air
22 strikes. I think that all our troops provided the information where they
23 [Realtime transcript read in error "rarely"] saw the VRS in the southern
24 part of the enclave. That was collected in the OPs room, and it's up to
25 them to decide either to put it on the list, yes or no.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Rave. I would request that you repeat
2 your answer. You are recorded as having said:
3 "I think that all our troops provided the information rarely saw
4 the VRS."
5 I don't think that makes sense.
6 Could you just look at the transcript and correct it, please.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. All our troops in the enclave, so all the
8 UNPROFOR soldiers that were aware of VRS troops in the southern part
9 attacking either the Muslims or UNPROFOR troops were reported. So, of
10 course, you can say that they were normal troops but it is a kind of
11 gathering intelligence where the enemy is.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Were you aware that at the time, in that area, there were also
15 members of UNPROFOR, British nationals, who guided NATO aircraft to
17 A. No. I'm aware that within the battalion we had the -- I don't
18 exactly know the name, but the guys who were educated to guide aircrafts
19 on targets. We had them in our own battalion, and I know that some of
20 our regular platoon guys did it in that period.
21 Q. Thank you. Now we're moving on to the 11th of July, 1995.
22 Is it correct that you, of course, together with the other
23 members of the Dutch battalion, decided to move people from Srebrenica to
25 A. Yes. As I told you yesterday, I think we talked to the commander
1 of the Bravo Company in the town of Srebrenica, Mr. Boering and myself,
2 when the UN facility was so overcrowded that we had no possibility that
3 the people could stay there, that we had to try to get them northward to
4 the Potocari area. And I don't know if we decided it ourselves or there
5 was information from the higher levels in Potocari to do so, but I know
6 we did, and I'm not sure that we had a direct order to do so, but ...
7 Q. I do apologise for pausing slightly. Yesterday I was cautioned
8 about the fact that I did not wait for the interpretation to be over so
9 there are quite a few things that are missing from the audio recording.
10 So please do bear with me. It doesn't mean that I'm not satisfied with
11 your answers. I'm just waiting for the interpretation to be over.
12 At the time, there were air strikes against VRS positions; right?
13 The 11th of July, 1995.
14 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't think there were air strikes.
15 There was close air support, so specific targets, because there's a big
16 difference between air strikes and close air support.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- please, please, no loud speaking.
19 Everything has been fixed? I do understand it has been fixed.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You spoke about shells that were falling by the column that was
23 moving towards Potocari. Do you know who fired these shells?
24 A. No. I'm not sure, of course, but I only can imagine it was the
1 Q. This column that was moving towards Potocari, were all people
2 walking in a single direction or were some people trying to move in to a
3 different direction?
4 A. As far as I know, they all were moving in the northern direction.
5 And, of course, there might be a single person who went back, to find the
6 rest of his family or anything else. But the column, in general, was
7 moving forward in a northern direction.
8 Q. In your view, how many such shells fell?
9 A. It's difficult for me to give exact numbers. I only know that
10 during the period I moved from Srebrenica towards Potocari, some shells
11 fell and, well, at least more than two or three, but I can't exactly --
12 give you numbers.
13 Q. At that moment, you did not know where the members of the
14 28th Division of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were; is that right?
15 A. That's right. Because the evening of the 10th, we saw lots of
16 people in military clothes moving in a northwestern direction, and we
17 hardly didn't see any military-clothed men during -- on the 11th.
18 Q. When speaking to the Serb side, you also noticed that they did
19 not know where the soldiers of the 28th Division were; right?
20 A. I don't know if I mentioned it. The only thing I know is that
21 all the time we spoke to General Mladic at that time or to others, they
22 wanted to know where they were, the men of the 28th Division, and they
23 wanted to have contact, and we were not in contact at that moment with
25 Q. The destination of that column was Potocari, or was it the
1 intention of the people in the column to go via Bratunac further on?
2 A. I can't imagine that it was their goal to go further on because
3 Bratunac was a Serb territory. The only thing they wanted was safety and
4 security. They had the imagination that they could find it on the UN
5 compound, so, in my opinion, they only wanted to go to Potocari to get
6 the UN protection.
7 Q. I'm asking you this because you said that the fire was intended
8 to prevent the people from going further. In fact, their intention
9 wasn't really to go further on but to reach Potocari; right? I'm merely
10 explaining the reason why I put that question to you.
11 A. It might be. And I think when there was a shelling between
12 Potocari and Bratunac or Yellow Bridge, at the moment, it was an extra
13 motivation for them not to go further.
14 Q. There are Serbian positions right beyond the Yellow Bridge;
16 A. In the area of Yellow Bridge, in the hills were Serbian
17 positions, yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd now us to look at P1147. It's a
19 video, V000-926. We need to see several sequences and stop at 22:36
21 Can we have that? And then stop at 32 minutes, 39 seconds. [In
22 English] 32:36. Or -- yeah, yeah, please, we can start with 31:19.
23 [Interpretation] And we'll proceed on to 32 minutes.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. We can see that General Mladic's intention and order was to head
2 for Potocari and Bratunac. And we're on the 11th of the July, 1995.
3 Do you know that, on that day, one could not reach Potocari along
4 that route? The Army of the Republika Srpska could not because of the
5 armed attacks mounted by the 28th Division. Instead, General Mladic had
6 to go back to Sase, and, from there, he went to Bratunac and then to
7 Potocari. In other words, on that day, the Srebrenica-Potocari road
8 could not be used.
9 Were you aware of this?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're giving a lot of information or
11 evidence, I do not know what it is, and then you ask, Were you aware of
12 this? Is that only limited to the last portion? Then you should have
13 left out all the earlier information. If it includes the earlier
14 information, you have to go step by step, and then ask whether armed
15 attacks were mounted by the 28th Division -- you have to -- you can't
16 just tell a long story and then say, Do you agree that ...
17 MR. LUKIC: I can -- I can make that long story short.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you know that the Army of Republika Srpska was not able to
21 make it along the Srebrenica-Potocari road on -- on that day?
22 A. Short answer: No.
23 Q. [In English] Okay. Fair enough.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like us to play the same video
25 from 32 minutes, 36 -- 36 seconds.
1 Can we play it?
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did you know - and we were able to see it in this video - that
5 somebody opened fire at General Mladic on that day, on the 11th, in
6 Srebrenica? Did you know that?
7 JUDGE ORIE: What we see on the video is -- what we see is a
8 picture of Mr. Mladic and we hear shooting and behaviour such that
9 apparently there's some concern that they may be the target. That is
10 what we see. Nothing more, nothing less. You should not interpret the
11 evidence for the witness and then ask whether he is aware of what you
12 apparently see.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, remain seated. Mr. Mladic -- remain
16 seated, Mr. Mladic. And no loud speaking.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. LUKIC: Give me one second.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you know that, on the 11th of July, in
22 the town of Srebrenica itself, there were still members of the
23 28th Division present?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I'd now like to move to the first meeting at Hotel Fontana, one
1 that you attended as well.
2 You tell us that General Mladic was angry on that occasion. Was
3 he blaming the DutchBat members for the casualties that NATO aviation
4 inflicted on the VRS troops that day?
5 A. In my recollection, he was blaming DutchBat as being the ones who
6 asked for the air strikes and who were responsible for killing his
8 Q. You were telling us about threats, the threats that
9 General Mladic made against you and Mr. Boering, the way you understood
10 them to be; right? This cannot be seen in the footage that is an exhibit
11 in this case; is that right?
12 A. That's right. But I know he did.
13 Q. Since it was Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans who suggested that
14 there be air strikes, the fact remains that he could have asked for air
15 strikes once more; is that right?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, of course, can you ask whatever you want.
17 You're more or less -- you say it was Karremans who suggested that there
18 be air strikes. The fact remains that he could have asked -- of course,
19 you do A and you could have done perhaps a different thing. You could
20 have done B or C. That's not a question. It's asking, more or less, for
21 judgement, opinion, rather than for facts.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: A factual question would have been: Do you know
25 whether he has considered to do -- ask something else, for example.
1 That's a factual question. And might provide you the information
2 apparently you are seeking but then in an appropriate way.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You heard the guidance given to me by His Honour Judge Orie. Did
5 you know if Mr. Karremans had the intention of asking for more air
7 A. I'm not sure, of course, but I don't think that he had the
8 intention to ask for more air strikes, because we lost the war at the
9 moment and it was impossible to ask for more air strikes.
10 Q. The reaction on the part of General Mladic seeking that there be
11 no more air strikes and his concern at that point, were they real?
12 A. I think you should ask General Mladic why he estimated that --
13 that concerns.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're asking for judgement or opinion, Mr. Lukic,
15 which you are supposed not to do.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Apart from the fact that he was angry and made threats,
18 General Mladic explicitly told you - and this can be seen in the
19 footage - that UNPROFOR and civilians were not the target of the Army of
20 Republika Srpska. And you do recall that part, do you not?
21 A. Yes. But that's in the same video when he threatened us that:
22 This will not be your last cigarette. Do you want to see your family
23 again? We were happy. You have only one life.
24 So it's a mix of all those things that created the situation,
25 especially at that moment. Not being aware of the role of General Mladic
1 at that moment, in what direction he wanted to go, that's -- in our
2 opinion, at least in my opinion, there was a threat, and I still had
3 the -- the feeling in the first ten minutes that there would be a
4 possibility to put us in the garden and shoot us.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should remain seated.
6 Again, Mr. Mladic, you should remain seated. One.
7 Second, you should not react in any way on the testimony given by
8 the witness.
9 You may proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. You were telling us about this meeting and the sound that you
12 heard, which you believed to be coming from a pig that was being
13 slaughtered in front of the Hotel Fontana.
14 A. No. That was in the second meeting.
15 Q. [In English] Second meeting.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D905?
17 Q. You are familiar with the document; you've seen it before. It
18 was in the Tolimir case.
19 It's a document issued by the Drina Corps Command on the
20 10th of July, 1995, where approval was granted for the slaughter of
21 cattle. And, under 2, it is stated that permission is granted for the
22 slaughter and delivery for the needs of the UN soldiers billeted in the
23 hotel in Bratunac of hogs or pigs, weighing up to 80 kilos.
24 Do you know what were the facilities available to Hotel Fontana
25 for that purpose? Was it ... so do you know what sort of sanitary
1 conditions existed in Hotel Fontana, whether this is something that they
2 normally did whenever Hotel Fontana would receive a supply of livestock,
3 in fact?
4 A. I'm not aware of the way the -- the Serbs in this area provided
5 the hotel with stock or anything else. I don't know how they fed our
6 POWs who were there. But the only thing I can say that if it was food
7 for the UN soldiers, it might be perfect, but I don't think it's perfect
8 to slaughter the pig on an open window during a meeting. You should have
9 done that by daylight the day before or the day after.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it, in fact, your case, Mr. Lukic, that
11 Hotel Fontana slaughters pigs in front of the hotel?
12 MR. LUKIC: I don't know that, Your Honour. I'm just trying to
13 establish with the witness. We'll probably have --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, no, I'm saying is it your case. Is that your
15 case? Yes or no. It's not your case, that's not what you're trying to
17 MR. LUKIC: I'm just asking the witness if he knows what's the
18 procedure. If he is claiming something, he should claim it.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not answering my question, that's fine.
20 Thank you so much. You may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like us to look at a
22 video-clip, which is now P1147, V000-9266. We need 15 minutes,
23 4 seconds, and 15 minutes and 30 seconds.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You recognise these soldiers in the footage as DutchBat troops;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We can see that some of them were filmed outside of the hotel and
5 the others in one of the dining-rooms. Or, at any rate, there seemed to
6 be tables there.
7 This is my question: When you came to the Hotel Fontana, you
8 were allowed to see the DutchBat soldiers. It was Major Boering who saw
9 them before the meeting, and then you yourself saw them after the
10 meeting; is that right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. We saw in the video how they comported themselves. Was it your
13 impression that they were relaxed, that they did not feel their life was
14 at risk?
15 A. I don't know if they were relaxed. There was not a tense
16 situation when we entered that room. But the only thing they wanted to
17 know: What's going on, and what will happen with us? That was the main
18 question of the soldiers.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D886 in e-court.
20 Q. This is your evidence in the Tolimir case.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page number 41 in e-court.
22 We need -- or that corresponds to page 6776 of the transcript.
23 Q. And in lines 6 and 7, after giving a rather long answer, starting
24 from line 1, you say in line 6 and 7, [In English] I quote:
25 "And what he told them and what I later on saw that they looked
1 rather relaxed because they really didn't know what was going on."
2 [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory that you believed
3 them to be relaxed when you saw them? Or at least that was your evidence
4 in the Tolimir case.
5 A. Yeah, I think we can translate "relaxing," they didn't feel
6 threatened at that moment.
7 Q. The members of the DutchBat left their observation post, right,
8 at one point, and tried to retreat deep within the Muslim territory?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The Muslim forces did not allow them to do this; is that right?
11 A. That's right. The -- they prevented us to do the job in the way
12 we wanted to do it. Because, in a normal military way, when you are in a
13 position, and either you're firing on -- on an enemy and you try to take
14 another position, then you go backward, find a new position, and they
15 prevented us to do so. That was the reason why they didn't go backward
16 but forward.
17 Q. It was seriously and under threat that the Muslims prevented the
18 DutchBat troops from retreating; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For that reason, since the threat was a serious one, the DutchBat
21 soldiers surrendered to the Serbian forces; right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. At that time, not a single soldier of the DutchBat was killed as
24 a result of fire coming from the Serbian forces; right?
25 A. Right.
1 Q. At the same time, one of the DutchBat soldiers was killed but as
2 a result of fire coming from the Muslim side; right?
3 A. When the soldiers on the OP Foxtrot returned from their OP and
4 wanted to go back to the compound, the road was blocked in the -- the
5 dirt road towards the compound was blocked, and Muslim civilians tried to
6 stop the APC and, in the same way as I told you, the Muslim army did,
7 because they only had one goal: The UN should go forward and fight the
8 VRS. That was their impression. When the APC passed the group of Muslim
9 civilians, either a hand-grenade was thrown or a shot was fired, and that
10 caused the death of one of our soldiers.
11 Q. Therefore, civilians were also armed.
12 A. As you know, in that period at least, and -- civilians on the
13 Muslim and the Serb side, most of them were armed. Although in the
14 area - and I think that's the direction you want to go - there were still
15 a lot of weapons, although we did our utmost to disarm them, to
16 demilitarise the enclave. We didn't manage. And we didn't manage to
17 demilitarise the Serbs, although it was not our task.
18 Q. The civilian who shot and killed the Dutch soldier, was he within
19 the column? How did it happen? Was it someone throwing a hand-grenade
20 out of the column? Can you describe this for us? How did this death of
21 a Dutch soldier come about?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, again, you should take it step by step.
23 Earlier the testimony was, when the APC passed the group of
24 Muslim civilians, either a hand-grenade was thrown or a shot was fired
25 and that caused the death.
1 So, therefore, it has not yet been identified who fired the shot
2 or who have thrown the grenade. In your follow-up questions, you already
3 imply answers on questions that have not yet been put to the witness,
4 such as the civilian who shot and killed the Dutch soldier. Let's first
5 establish whether the witness knows whether this shot was fired from that
6 group of civilians or whether the hand-grenade was thrown from that group
7 of civilians.
8 Mr. Rave, are you -- do you know?
9 THE WITNESS: I think the hand-grenade or the shot came from the
10 group of the civilians at the end of the dirt road from OP Foxtrot
11 towards the main road to Potocari. It was not -- there were no civilians
12 that were in the column because it was some days before. I think it was
13 the 8th or the 9th, but I have to take a look in my notes.
14 So it was not on the 10th or the 11th --
15 JUDGE ORIE: You say -- when you said a grenade was thrown or a
16 shot was fired when passing the group of civilians, you say, That shot
17 was fired from that group of civilians or that hand-grenade was thrown by
18 a person in that group of civilians.
19 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we have established it. We take it step
21 by step.
22 Please proceed --
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you for your help. I think it's time for our
24 break, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break. But we'll first ask the
1 witness to be escorted out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at five minutes to
5 Perhaps, Mr. Lukic, perhaps briefly discuss with your client that
6 the Chamber does not accept any comments or reactions on the testimony,
7 which is inappropriate.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
11 Mr. Groome, the matters you raised in private session at the
12 beginning of this session are taken care of. And it's partly
13 translation; it's partly redaction.
14 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are we more or less on track, which will
17 mean that you would conclude today?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would there still be left some time for
20 Mr. Jeremy, then? Perhaps --
21 MR. LUKIC: I hope so. I hope so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You hope so.
23 Mr. Jeremy, could you give us an indication as to -- as matters
24 stand now, whether you would need much time or ...?
25 MR. JEREMY: I would say between five and ten minutes, at the
1 moment, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, to the extent you could accommodate
3 Mr. Jeremy and the Chamber, you're invited to do so.
4 We'll now continue.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly like to ask to
6 have the witness's microphone switched off when witness is not speaking.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also noticed, perhaps I make a comment
8 there, that once the microphone of the witness is switched on, that there
9 is a rumble. There is a lot of background noise. So apart from the
10 witness switching off his microphone if he is not speaking, I would have
11 rather have it resolved by technicians as well and not to remedy it in
12 the way as we are doing at this moment, but to start with it would be
14 Then please proceed, Mr. Lukic. And the witness is invited to
15 activate and deactivate his microphone, as requested.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. I would just like to go back briefly to the sound that you heard
18 in front of the Fontana hotel.
19 When I showed you 1D905, and this was the approval for the
20 slaughter of livestock, I want to put the Defence case to you.
21 The Defence asserts that this was done in one of the facilities
22 of the Drina Corps. According to the information we have, the noise came
23 from the following. One of the members of the VRS kicked a dog that was
24 in front of the Fontana hotel.
25 Now this is my question for you: Can you claim with certainty
1 that the noise did not come from a dog? Are you certain that it came
2 from a pig that was being slaughtered?
3 A. There are some things. There might be a dog kicked in front of
4 the hotel. I told you that we were in the briefing room or in the
5 meeting room that the window was opened. It was not the front side of
6 the hotel, it was the back side of the hotel. I don't know the area over
7 there. The only thing I know that the window was opened. I know the
8 sound of a pig that was slaughtered. I recognised it as a pig that was
9 slaughtered. And after some minutes, the window was closed. So don't
10 mix up front and back of the hotel, and I think I can make the difference
11 between a dog and a pig.
12 Q. Maybe I did not express myself properly, in front of the hotel or
13 behind the hotel. At any rate, we have testimony stating that someone
14 below the window kicked a dog several times. However, if you're
15 saying -- actually, I think that the answer is a bit confused. That it
16 may be a dog but that you think it's a pig. Is that it? Would that
17 briefly summarise the answer that you provide --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness says, I can make the
20 distinction between a pig and a dog. He says it was a pig. So he
21 doesn't say, It may have been a pig. Let's take his -- whether you
22 believe it or not, whether you have evidence which contradicts it, fine.
23 No problem. But let's not change what the witness told us. At least if
24 I understood you well, Mr. Rave.
25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. And let's not -- it is a relatively
2 small element.
3 MR. LUKIC: Why I was confused, I just want to point that at
4 page 23, line 18, there is a sentence:
5 "There might be a dog kicked in front of the hotel."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What the witness says is that beyond what he
7 could hear in front of the hotel and he said he couldn't -- he had no
8 view, he had no -- it was not within hearing distance. Whether someone
9 kicked a dog over there he wouldn't know. But what he heard was a pig
10 after the windows were open. That is clearly the evidence the witness
11 gave. And, again, if there's any contradicting evidence, the Chamber
12 would love to hear it.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Then I will leave the topic.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know that the Dutch battalion ordered
17 skis and that an attempt was made to transport that into the enclave?
18 A. We came in in January. Then there was bit of snow, but I don't
19 know if in that period skis were ordered, maybe to do some sports or
20 anything else. But after that, for sure not because it was so hot, there
21 was no snow, and I don't know why they used skis in summer.
22 Q. Do you know -- actually, you don't know at all whether there had
23 been any ordering or not and whether there had been any subsequent
24 transport so we're not going to go into that.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We just need a still from P1147 now.
1 V000-9266. We need the 4th minute, the 53rd second.
2 Q. Just to remind you what we're talking about. As you will see,
3 this is a conversation. You do remember this moment, don't you --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- when people in uniform and also a man in civilian clothing is
6 talking to the members of the battalion.
7 Do you know who these uniformed men belong to? Do you know
8 whether this is the army or the police?
9 A. I think it is the army, but I'm not sure.
10 Q. For the record, I'm going to tell you that these are members of
11 the police. And in the footage we saw two men in addition to the
12 interpreter and that is Raso Pantic and Dusko Jevic and they are members
13 of the police.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Is Mr. Lukic giving evidence or is Mr. Lukic
15 presenting what is agreed between the parties?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I assume he presenting what is agreed into the --
17 by Mr. Ivetic. These people are identified in the stills book as members
18 of the special police as opposed to the municipal police. And I believe
19 that's what he would be doing, although we haven't spoken about it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [Interpretation] Now I'd just like to ask for something from the
24 same video, P1147, that is, V000-9266. From the 23rd minute and
25 54th second, up until the 25th minute and the 32nd second. It is the
1 presence of General Mladic in Potocari.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You said to us that food had been brought to the civilians and
5 that its distribution was halted once General Mladic left. Had
6 everything been distributed, everything that had been brought in? Or was
7 something brought in and then taken away? I'm speaking about food,
9 A. I don't know what was brought in. The only thing I know that I
10 saw in that area that General Mladic was providing some bread and I think
11 some chocolate to the refugees. I haven't seen him bringing water, and
12 for the people inside the compound at least that there was brought
13 nothing. Maybe there is evidence that we can see that Colonel Acamovic
14 [phoen] some days later is negotiating about convoys coming in, but the
15 only thing that General Mladic at that moment brought was some bread. He
16 made a show in front of the camera. Then left and the distribution of
17 the bread they had with them stopped.
18 Q. Do you know that all the bakeries in the region were involved and
19 that everything that could have been made on that day was brought in?
20 Did you have information about the quantity of bread that could have been
21 made in that area at one point in time?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know that bread was even brought in from Serbia because
24 the local bakeries could not bake large quantities?
25 A. No. But as I say, just as the buses, General Mladic asked us for
1 buses because they were not available. Now in this video he is stating
2 that he organises the transport and he organises the buses, so ... it
3 doesn't say anything to me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Rave, could I invite you not to comment on
5 the questions, et cetera. You were simply asked whether you knew about
6 Serbian bakeries assisting because local bakeries couldn't do. That's
7 the question. You could limit your answer to that.
8 I would have, however, one additional question.
9 You said you don't know what was brought in. What did you see,
10 in terms of quantities of bread? Because you're talking about bread and
11 chocolate. Are we talking about ten loaves? 500 loaves of bread?
12 Approximately, what did you see?
13 THE WITNESS: I saw approximately 50 loaves of bread.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something about the demilitarisation of
18 the enclave. So first I'd like to show you D17.
19 The essence of your testimony in this aspect is that there were
20 no organised military structures in the enclave of Srebrenica. This is a
21 document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Command of the
22 28th Division, and this is a document dated the 30th of June, 1995.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have D17.
24 Q. So what can be seen here is that a few days before the start of
25 Krivaja 95, the Command of the 28th Division is sending a report to the
1 Command of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla. And it says here that soldiers of the
2 28th Division of the land forces located in Srebrenica and Zepa decided
3 to give the largest possible contribution to the Army of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina in its fight against the aggressor, and with that aim,
5 they intensified their activities deep inside the territory temporarily
6 occupied by the aggressor.
7 Did you know that in official documents of the Army of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, they actually call the Bosnian Serb army the
9 "aggressor army"?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It says here - it's in these bullet points that we see further
12 on - the results achieved are being listed and in the first group it says
13 that 13 Chetniks were killed. Did you know that in the official
14 documents of the Army of Bosnia members of the Army of Republika Srpska
15 are being called "Chetniks"?
16 A. No.
17 Q. In the last bullet point it says:
18 "Several dozen Chetniks were wounded."
19 And then, number 2 says:
20 "In order to prevent enemy forces from sending additional forces
21 from the Srebrenica and Zepa areas to the Sarajevo theatre, two acts of
22 sabotage were carried out near Srebrenica, on the 23rd of June at Osmace
23 and on the 23rd of June at Bijelo Stijenje, near Koprivno, and the
24 following results were achieved: Seven Chetniks were killed ..."
25 And then number 3. It says that on the 26th of June 1995,
1 several successful acts of sabotage were carried out deep inside the
2 territory temporarily occupied by the enemy and, as a matter of fact,
3 20 to 40 kilometres deep in the area of Han Pijesak and Vlasenica.
4 And then there's a reference to Visnjica, Crna Rijeka, and the
5 Vrani Kamen feature.
6 Now on the next page in B/C/S, and it's the same page in the
7 English version, the last bullet point states that over 40 Chetniks were
8 killed in these actions.
9 What were the positions that you personally held within the Dutch
10 battalion? You were in charge of security, were you not? And, at the
11 same time, you were the liaison officer for communication with the
12 civilian authorities and the military authorities; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. As security officer, in order to make the right decisions, was it
15 indispensable for you to know the information that is contained in this
16 document of the 28th Division?
17 A. Yes, of course, it would be very interesting for us to have these
18 kind of documents but we were not in the chain of command of the BiH
19 army. But maybe I can add something, because, of course, we heard lots
20 of those rumours frequently from the VRS side, especially from
21 Major Nikolic. All the time they told us that BiH or whatever who went
22 out of the enclave to commit actions in whatever form, we got never the
23 proof that, A, they happened; B, we got not the freedom of movement to go
24 out to check it. We got not the equipment to do our job properly inside
25 the enclave so that we could check at all.
1 So I think you've got some answers now.
2 Q. Did you ask -- after these accusatory allegations made by the
3 Serb side, did you ask the Muslim side whether they were, indeed,
4 carrying out such actions?
5 A. Of course, we asked. And, of course, the answer was no.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Just for me to follow.
7 Mr. Lukic, you've shown a document where there's internal
8 reporting within the Army of the BH structures. You refer in your
9 question to:
10 "Did you ask after these accusatory allegations made by the Serb
11 side ..."
12 Is that specifically in relation to these events described? Or
13 what -- what's the factual basis for those allegations by the Serb side?
14 MR. LUKIC: Because this gentleman already testified that Captain
15 or Major Nikolic complained and also another VRS officer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But not specifically on these events but more
17 on general terms. Is that ...
18 MR. LUKIC: More of general terms. But such a -- like events and
19 the actions like these performed by 28th Division.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You give them as examples --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- which may have been covered by a general
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So you said to us that demilitarisation had not been carried out
3 in the enclave of Srebrenica and Zepa; is that right?
4 A. That's not right. I said that one of our tasks was to
5 demilitarise the enclave of Srebrenica. We were not in Zepa. In
6 Srebrenica the demilitarisation started with the Canadian battalion.
7 After that, the three Dutch battalions did whatever they could to disarm
8 the population and the parts of the 28th Division or the 28th Group. We
9 did our utmost. We collected lots of weapons, but, at the end, it was
10 shown that we were not able to disarm the enclave completely.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we had a rather lengthy examination of a
13 witness about demilitarisation - I think it was in relation to Gorazde -
14 where we had to look at quite some documents on -- on what exactly was
15 the -- was the legal situation.
16 Is it the same here or is it different or ... could you assist us
17 in referring to where we find the demilitarisation tasks and how it was
18 decided by the UN?
19 MR. LUKIC: I don't know it by heart, but I know that we have
20 documents as -- as an evidence in this case. It's two agreements on
21 Srebrenica and Zepa demilitarisation. One -- both from 1993.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you have the numbers, then that would
23 sufficiently guide me to find them.
24 MR. LUKIC: I have ERN numbers in front of me. I don't have --
25 JUDGE ORIE: But you said they were in evidence --
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you have the ERN numbers, perhaps Madam Registrar
3 could assist us. Could you please read them.
4 MR. LUKIC: There are two. One from May, 8th of May, 1993, and
5 ERN is 01239650. English version is R1024231.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you can confirm that this is in
7 evidence or ...?
8 MR. LUKIC: It should be D15.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D15. Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. LUKIC: Probably. I don't know for sure.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll have a look at D15.
12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honour, Ms. Stewart tells me it's also in under
14 JUDGE ORIE: D15 is something different. It says:
15 "Debrief of UNMOs from the Srebrenica enclave dated 24th of
17 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Then let's check the P number, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to find a better one. I'll have a
19 look at P --
20 Meanwhile, you may continue, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you do remember that there was an agreement
23 on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa; right?
24 A. Yeah, that's right.
25 Q. Before most of the military forces left Srebrenica, you saw a
1 great deal of armed and uniformed people within Srebrenica; right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. At the time, did you ask someone where they got the weapons from?
4 Did you have time to do that?
5 A. No. Specific answer: I could have find the time, but I didn't
7 Q. Do you know anything about the shipment of the weapons to
8 Srebrenica via Zepa? The weapons reached Zepa by air.
9 A. I don't know if weapons reached Zepa by air, but I also don't
10 know about the shipments from weapons to Srebrenica.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will now briefly look at a
12 document, 1D893.
13 Q. Since the B/C/S version is a poor copy, let me tell you that it's
14 a newspaper article, an interview with Naser Oric issued by the Sarajevo
15 paper "Oslobodjenje" on the 23rd of August, 1996.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the English version on
17 our screens only so that we can follow.
18 The headline or the title of the text is: "Weapons that were
19 handed over were out of order."
20 We need page 2. We will look at the portion beneath the
21 subtitle: "Demilitarisation of Srebrenica."
22 It is stated here that Naser Oric said, and that's paragraph 1,
23 line 3. [In English] I will quote in English.
24 "When the order of demilitarisation came, the commander told me
25 to deliver only those weapons which were out of order and useless and
1 heavy guns because we not hide them. So I did. We kept the defence
2 lines and our weapons.
3 "So we handed over to the UNPROFOR only some of the weapons. For
4 instance, two tanks. We had five tanks, but since we had not had fuel
5 for them, we had to burn some down, so we kept only two and withdraw
6 [sic] them into the depth of our territory."
7 Then the fourth paragraph in this section says, I quote:
8 "Most of the weapons we surrendered were useless or almost
9 useless. We kept the rest."
10 Then we'll have to go to page 3 in English. Fourth -- or fifth
11 paragraph from the top. I quote:
12 "Sefer Halilovic intervenes ..."
13 Then the second row, the end of the row. I quote:
14 "I order you to deliver the weapons that were out of order. It
15 was approximately, including those homemade and useless rifles,
16 200 barrels all together, plus some heavy weapons that you could not
17 hide ... at the same time, you had a plan how to recapture the weapons,
18 if necessary, from the UNPROFOR."
19 Now, the next title is: "Guards along the lines."
20 And the third line says, I quote:
21 "We had some 2.000 barrels. I know that for sure. And I did not
22 know everything. Weapons were being hidden. We kept some 20 cannons,
23 for sure, with four barrels."
24 And the last sentence in -- in this paragraph, I quote:
25 "So we had probably some 4.000 barrels and it became manifest
1 during the breakthrough towards Tuzla, let alone the brigade of Zepa ..."
2 Q. [Interpretation] As security officer, did you have information to
3 the effect that at the time when you were in Srebrenica, the
4 28th Division had, as stated by its commander --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel repeat the number of barrels or
6 rifles he mentioned.
7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know about the amount of weapons they
8 had --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- the interpreters ask, first of all,
10 whether you could repeat the number of barrels. Is that 4.000,
11 Mr. Lukic?
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it's 4.000.
13 JUDGE ORIE: 4.000. Yes.
14 Were you aware, did you have information that there were 4.000 --
15 probably 4.000 barrels in Srebrenica held by the forces of the ABiH?
16 THE WITNESS: No, we were aware that a lot of people inside the
17 enclave still had weapons. When we saw them with weapons, we confiscated
18 them, but we didn't know about any numbers. And, as you can see in the
19 document, not even Naser, as commander of the operational group, knew how
20 many weapons there were.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Would you agree with me that this would also have been the
23 information that you had to have in order to make proper decisions as a
24 security officer?
25 JUDGE ORIE: What kind of decisions are you referring to,
1 Mr. Lukic? Could you be more precise in your question.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The gentleman was supposed to make a
3 decision or give a suggestion to the commander of the DutchBat as a
4 security officer on what should be done next and in what way, who should
5 be monitored and in what way.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have known that information of --
7 of probably 4.000 barrels, would that have been useful in your work?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't think that the amount of barrels is
9 important. We knew that we had to demilitarise the zone. We were not
10 able to do so, and we didn't get any other means or the possibility
11 either to check, for example, all the houses.
12 So it didn't change anything when I knew even the amount of
13 barrels that there were.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you had to demilitarise.
15 I had a look now, Mr. Lukic, at P23 where it's about
16 demilitarising, but the -- who has to do what may need further attention
17 before we continue to talk about demilitarising and ...
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Naturally. Of course, I didn't mean
19 Mr. Rave in person, but I meant that this was one of the main tasks of
20 the DutchBat in Srebrenica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it on the basis of P23? I mean, we're
22 talking about demilitarisation. Who has to do what. That is, for me, as
23 we earlier did in -- for different areas -- because looking at P23 - but
24 forgive me when I'm wrong - going through it very quickly, it seems that
25 the parties accept an obligation to demilitarise -- they're to hand over
1 their weapons and that UNPROFOR is a witness to that and plays a role
2 that they will accept weapons which are handed over to them. It is an
3 agreement between two parties. So, therefore, the task described there,
4 although as a witness, but is mainly, at least going through it very
5 quickly, UNPROFOR shall take the handed-over or submitted weapons in
6 custody. UNPROFOR shall take the handed-over submitted ammunition in
7 custody separately.
8 It -- from what I read at this moment, it's not, You should
9 confiscate weapons.
10 And therefore my question to the witness would be: On what basis
11 did you confiscate weapons?
12 THE WITNESS: On the basis of demilitarisation, when we saw
13 people outside houses with weapons, we confiscated the weapons. They got
14 a ticket that we confiscated the weapons and we stored them in the
15 Weapons Collection Point.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what you did. But on the basis of what?
17 On the basis of what instrument or the basis of what?
18 THE WITNESS: As far as my knowledge goes, it was on the basis of
19 the task we had in the mandate in -- demilitarise --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, perhaps we have then to look in more
21 detail to the mandate. But when I earlier asked for the
22 demilitarisation, then I -- if I look at the document, that raises, at
23 least, a few questions.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I will ask the witness, though I believe that he referred to it,
1 in part, just now.
2 A. As far as I know, it was in our mandate to demilitarise but not
3 to chase and to search houses to demilitarise.
4 Q. That was precisely going to be my question. You didn't have the
5 mandate to search houses, and you've answered to that.
6 You were able to and did react only when you saw someone out in
7 the open carrying weapons in the town of Srebrenica. This is another
8 thing that you told us about.
9 However, I will now read to you from another passage of this
10 interview with Naser Oric. It's the same document we have here. The
11 last paragraph.
12 What is discussed here is how they went about tricking you, in
13 fact, deceiving you.
14 [In English] "As soon as the UNPROFOR set up their check-points,
15 we realised that we could not rely upon them. So one team of my men, who
16 had no military education but were reliable and who made part of reserve
17 units, decided to establish our lines. To organise our monitors. The
18 system functioned in the following way. When an UNPROFOR patrol was
19 approaching, our guys on the lines informed us so we could remove the
20 weapons. If the UNPROFOR soldiers asked about presence of our boys on
21 those lines, we answered that we could not trust them and that we were
22 afraid of Chetniks so we wanted to have our guards. They showed some
23 understanding for that, which was not the case when we dug trenches and
25 [Interpretation] Would you agree with me that, since you were
1 foreign to the area, you didn't speak the language, the Muslims in
2 Srebrenica found it very easy to trick you and conceal weapons from you,
3 to deceive you?
4 A. It wasn't too difficult to conceal weapons, and I think it has
5 nothing to do with the language because we had interpreters. But in an
6 area - and I think you have been there - as big as it is, it's no problem
7 at all to conceal some weapons.
8 Q. Thank you. Let's speak about the offensive combat activities
9 that the Muslims mounted out of Srebrenica.
10 One of the topics is the linking up of the enclaves. At that
11 time you were there, were you aware that the road between Srebrenica and
12 Zepa was under the control of the Muslim forces?
13 A. I'm even not aware about a road between Zepa and Srebrenica
14 because the enclave of Srebrenica ended for us at OP Echo. We were not
15 able to build more OPs because the VRS denied us to bring in more
16 material to build OPs to control more of the southern part because, of
17 course, there was a lot of complaints from the VRS side that there was a
18 traffic between the enclave of Srebrenica and Zepa. We were not able,
19 because it was a very big terrain, to control it all. And specifically a
20 road, there wasn't a road. There were a lot of dirt roads through the
21 woods, and I don't know what road you're referring to.
22 Q. Did you have knowledge to the effect that Srebrenica and Zepa
23 were two enclaves that were not linked together? Were you briefed on
24 that? And that you - and that's to say the Dutch battalion - had only
25 Srebrenica under its control and not Zepa?
1 A. That's correct. And they were not linked because between Zepa
2 and Srebrenica were the Serb forces.
3 Q. Do you know that Krivaja 95 operation was launched precisely for
4 the fact that what you just said was not true? That's to say, that the
5 Serbs were not present on the road between Srebrenica and Zepa, they
6 didn't have it under their control, and that that was the main objective
7 of Operation Krivaja 95.
8 A. I think that with this operation you mean the takeover of our
9 OP Echo in the southern part of the enclave and they wanted the road that
10 was going from east to west, in my opinion, and not from north to south
11 or south to north. And the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa were
12 north/south, and the road they wanted to use was the east/west road.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I apologise.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. If would you inform the
17 witness what you mean by Krivaja 95 because, otherwise, I think you're
18 talking at cross purposes.
19 MR. LUKIC: My mistake.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please correct it.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I will.
22 Q. [Interpretation] Krivaja 95 is an operation launched by the Army
23 of Republika Srpska in order to separate the enclaves of Srebrenica and
24 Zepa. Were you at all familiar with the contents of that order?
25 A. No, I don't know that order. The only order I know is the -- the
1 takeover of OP Echo, and I don't know if it was part of this operation,
2 but ...
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to tender 1D893 into
4 evidence before we move on to the next document. It's the interview
5 given by Naser Oric and Sefer Halilovic for the Sarajevo newspaper
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness doesn't know anything about
9 it, isn't it? Do you want to tender it from the bar table or through
10 this witness? What is the --
11 MR. LUKIC: If I may. I think the witness confirmed that he knew
12 about some amount of the weapons concealed inside the enclave. But here
13 we have more precise data so it's not even contradicting what he said.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think our rule is that if the witness
15 testified about a matter of -- or about an issue on which we have
16 evidence, although the witness is not aware of that documentation, that
17 that might be a reason not to wait with bar tabling this evidence but,
18 rather, then tender it immediately.
19 Any objections?
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. JEREMY: Just to confirm: The length of the pages is four
22 pages in English?
23 MR. LUKIC: I moved from that document. Give me one second.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar seems to confirm --
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, four pages --
1 MR. JEREMY: No objections to the tendering of that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D893 receives number Exhibit D275,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D275 is admitted into evidence.
6 Mr. Lukic, we'll take a break in approximately two or three
7 minutes from now. If there's anything you could --
8 MR. LUKIC: I can finish one more document, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
12 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, just so that we are able to plan our
13 scheduling for our next witness, I wonder if Mr. Lukic could give us an
14 estimate of his remaining cross-examination time, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: I cannot say exactly, but I think that probably I
17 need an hour, a bit more.
18 JUDGE ORIE: An hour, a bit more, which would bring us -- it
19 might leave us 15 to 20 minutes at the very end, as matters stand now.
20 So, therefore, if the witness is there, I'd like him to remain
21 stand by, and with the apologies if he will be called only tomorrow.
22 MR. JEREMY: That's understood, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic, for your last document.
25 MR. LUKIC: Before the break. Not the last document --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: If we can have 1D904.
3 Q. [Interpretation] This is a document of the Republic of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or, rather, the Army of the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the command of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla. The
6 29th of April, 1995, is the date. The heading says:
7 "Per your request, instructions for further action in connection
8 with UNPROFOR's intention to set up an observation post in Srebrenica."
9 The document is sent to the Command of the 28th Division, the
10 army, the land forces.
11 The second paragraph, under number 3, says:
12 "Bearing in mind the above mentioned, and fully understanding the
13 serious negative consequences of the possible setting up of an
14 observation post of UNPROFOR for the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 (threatening the Zepa corridor) we suggest the following."
16 Actually, my introductory question to you would be as follows.
17 Is it correct that beforehand --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, isn't it true that we have two sets of
19 numbers here and that you were reading from page 1, the first 3, rather
20 than the follow-up 3 --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Yes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- because we are now guided to the second page in
23 English where we still have to remain on the first page.
24 MR. LUKIC: First page; first number 3.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So it correct that beforehand in that location, there was an
3 observation post and that, for some reason, it was abolished and then an
4 attempt was made to reinstate it there?
5 A. I'm not aware exactly of the location at this moment. Lozine, is
6 it in the western part of the enclave or in the southern part of the
8 Q. Obviously this is an observation post that would threaten the
9 Zepa corridor.
10 A. Well, as I stated, Zepa is in the southern part of the enclave,
11 and I think that sometimes we tried to establish a new observation post
12 over there, but the problem was we didn't get the clearance to bring in
13 the material. And, of course, it was quite simple because when we were
14 there and everybody asked us to be between the two parties, we tried to
15 establish observation posts as possible between the parties. And I don't
16 have the imagination that the BiH caused problems when we would create an
17 observation post in the south.
18 MR. LUKIC: Now I think it's time for break.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break.
20 Could the witness follow the usher.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past
24 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
2 Mr. Lukic, when I'm insisting so much on the legal text
3 underlying demilitarisation, or whatever, I hope that you'll understand
4 that it may make a difference whether you violate something you have
5 agreed upon voluntarily as a party to an agreement or whether you violate
6 any provision imposed by the Security Council. That's the reason why,
7 when we are talking about what parties are supposed to do, why I'm so
8 insisting on having the proper legal basis available.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: To answer shortly to Your Honours, I guess it was
12 regarding the -- the agreement on demilitarisation of Srebrenica in -- in
13 Article 5, if we have P23 on the screen.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to deal with it with the witness --
15 MR. LUKIC: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- then fine. Then if you say, Could you
17 specifically read paragraph 5 of that --
18 MR. LUKIC: Five of that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll read it. Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: Okay. And it's -- we need second page in English.
21 It's second-last paragraph inside the paragraph 5, non-combatants.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But did you want to deal with it with the
23 witness. I said I will read it --
24 MR. LUKIC: Oh, okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, there's no reason to have it on the screen.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: I had it on the screen for a long time, my own
4 MR. LUKIC: Okay, thank you. I will move on, then.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Can we go on, Mr. Rave?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. [In English] Okay. [Interpretation] You saw this document, and
8 the village of Lozine is mentioned in relation to the corridor. It's in
9 the south of the Srebrenica enclave; is that right?
10 A. As I told you, the name Lozine doesn't ring a bell at this
11 moment. I should take a look at the map. But when it is in the south,
12 then I stay to my answer.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we'd like to take a look at
15 document -- actually, I would like to tender this previous document,
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I guess it's 904.
18 MR. LUKIC: 904. Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Again ...
20 MR. JEREMY: No objections, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D904 receives number D276,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D276 is admitted.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D809 [as interpreted]. That is the
2 document we'd need in e-court now.
3 Q. This, roughly, is a document with a content that is similar to
4 the previous one. However, here, the General Staff of the Army of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 17th of June, 1995, is issuing an order to the
6 Command of the 28th Division of the Land Forces. And the heading is:
7 "Preparations for offensive combat operations."
8 In paragraph 1, and paragraphs 2 and 3, we can see the content of
9 the order, which is basically an order to prepare operations that would
10 be carried out outside the enclave.
11 In conversations with members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
12 within the enclave, did you receive any information to the effect that
13 these forces were commanded on some occasions by the General Staff of the
14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina directly?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Obviously this document shows that this is part of a wider
17 military operation; isn't that right?
18 A. Might be, yes.
19 Q. Do you know that, at that time, attacks were being launched from
20 the city of Sarajevo with a view to breaking through the Serbian ring
21 around Sarajevo?
22 A. No, I'm not aware of that because we're talking now on the level
23 far above us.
24 Q. Thank you. At that time, you received intelligence -- you had
25 intelligence concerning the locations of tanks of the Army of
1 Republika Srpska, the locations of cannons, positions, and we saw that
2 from the testimony that we put to you today, Mr. Franken's testimony.
3 Did you have any information about where cannons and tanks were
4 within the enclave, the ones that Mr. Oric spoke of?
5 A. No, we didn't. Because, otherwise, when it was possible, we have
6 confiscated them and stored them in the Weapons Collection Point.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, again now, the previous question, you
9 "At that time you received intelligence" - it's unclear whether
10 you're referring to the witness or to DutchBat - "you had intelligence
11 concerning the locations ... and we saw that from the testimony that we
12 put to you today, Mr. Franken's testimony."
13 This Chamber still has to determine whether what Mr. Franken told
14 in another and which was put to this witness, whether that is accepted
15 for a fact, yes or no. So the way in which you introduce your questions
16 is not the way you should have done it. Could you please keep that in
17 mind. Facts are only facts once the Chamber has evaluated all of the
18 evidence. Please proceed. Or when they are agreed between the parties,
19 but ...
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Did I put to you today something that came out of the testimony
22 of Mr. Franken that you would not agree with?
23 A. Of course, I can't remember exactly what came out of the
24 testimony of Mr. Franken, but I think, within my possibilities, I
25 answered all your questions, so...
1 Q. [In English] Okay. [Interpretation] Did you receive
2 intelligence, you as a Dutch -- as the Dutch battalion only from your own
3 sources or did you also use sources outside of the Dutch battalion, such
4 as UN or perhaps NATO sources?
5 A. When you gather intelligence, you get your own intelligence, and,
6 of course, you use all the intelligence that is available. So also
7 reports from our higher echelons gave us intelligence and information.
8 Q. Terrain observation in and around Srebrenica was done through
9 several means, unmanned aircraft, laser surveillance, or personal
10 observation on the part of the members of the Dutch battalion; right?
11 You had all of these at your disposal?
12 A. No, we hadn't this at our disposal at all. We had our personal
13 observations, and, as I told you, we have the reports and the
14 intelligence that came from the higher echelons, but we didn't have those
15 means at our own disposal, within the battalion.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic. You should whisper.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you know that the Bosniak side, the Muslim side, tried to
21 bribe members of the DutchBat into not reporting on the weapons that were
22 detected and into allowing the supplies of weapons to come into
24 A. No.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's have a look at 1D883, another
1 document connected to this topic.
2 Q. This is a document issued by the Command of the 2nd Corps of the
3 Army of Republic of Bosnia and -- Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the
4 8th of July, 1995, which was precisely the time when the VRS operation
5 directed at Srebrenica began. It's a report on combat results of the
6 units and commands of the 28th Division of the land forces of the
7 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 Under bullet point 1, it is stated that 60 Chetniks were killed,
9 "and, according to unconfirmed reports, the aggressor suffered even
10 greater losses and had many wounded."
11 It's yet another operation of the 28th Division outside of the
12 enclave of Srebrenica.
13 Beneath the bullet points, the following paragraph reads:
14 "In the village of Visnjica, large quantities of ammunition were
15 seized but the soldiers were exhausted and could not pull out more.
16 Therefore, the ammunition was destroyed as were all the facilities that
17 the aggressor could have used for military purposes."
18 Do you know that, at that time, a heinous crime was committed by
19 the BH army in this village where all the houses were torched and the
20 entire population was killed? Did you have this sort of intelligence?
21 A. The first thing I want to answer that the attack on the enclave
22 was not started on 8th of July but before, when OP Echo was targeted. I
23 think then started the operation to go into the enclave of Srebrenica.
24 And further on, I'm not aware of the things you just mentioned that are
25 in this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it took you three minutes and a half to
2 introduce a question, just are you aware of a horrible crime committed in
3 Visnjica, which -- and then we are not here to educate the witness about
4 what is contained in the reports of the BiH but we are here to hear his
6 Three and a half minutes you took it to set out where the
7 question was answered in the negative, so there was no need to do that.
8 Please proceed, and keep this in mind.
9 MR. LUKIC: I will.
10 Q. [Interpretation] You say that the operation by the Serbian --
11 Serb forces began earlier. But can we then agree that, at the same time
12 as the VRS operation commenced directed at Srebrenica, the forces within
13 Srebrenica not only were capable of mounting a defence but also of
14 mounting offensive activities outside of the enclave?
15 A. As the attack on OP Echo started, we tried to deter the attack.
16 At that same moment also operational activities within the enclave from
17 the Muslim side took place. We tried to stop them, tried to avoid it,
18 because we didn't want to level the tension more than it was already. So
19 we tried to get in contact with both parties and both parties to stop the
20 confrontations from both sides.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now the question was a different one. The
22 question was whether, at the time, as you said, the operation -- the
23 Serbian operation started, whether you were aware of the Muslim forces
24 undertaking operations outside the enclave.
25 THE WITNESS: The only awareness we had was the information we
1 got from the Serb side that they told us that the Muslims were taking
2 actions out of the -- outside the enclave. But that's the only thing we
3 were aware of, told by them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. This order and others like it issued by the BH army is not
7 something that you ever seen; right?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. In your view, did the members of the 28th Division that you held
10 meetings with in Srebrenica have the duty to show such orders to you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ask them to show you the plans and effects of their
13 military operations?
14 A. When you're not aware of plans, you can't ask them.
15 Q. Where you knew of the operations that were unfolding, that you
16 were informed about by members of the VRS, did you ask the members of the
17 BH army --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's clear the witness, if he says you
19 can't ask them whether that's true or not. He didn't. That's the gist
20 of the answer. The witness also could have said, I didn't ask them and
21 then ...
22 Please proceed.
23 Under no circumstances did you ever ask for such plans?
24 THE WITNESS: No, because we didn't know that they existed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, but sometimes you can ask for something --
1 THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- you are not sure that it does exist, but that
3 asking for it also is instrumental to gaining knowledge of possible
4 existence. But let's not deal with that. The witness never asked.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation.
6 Q. Let us now discuss your freedom of movement; that is to say, the
7 freedom of movement of the DutchBat across the enclave of Srebrenica.
8 Up until one point, your DutchBat members enjoyed the freedom of
9 movement around the enclave; right?
10 A. We had no freedom movement around the enclave, only inside the
12 Q. That was my question, yes.
13 At one point, however, you were deprived of the freedom of
14 movement throughout the enclave; is that right?
15 A. I don't know what you mean. When, or when, or what?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, were you -- did you want to know whether
17 there was no freedom of movement throughout the enclave or that the
18 freedom of movement within the enclave was not complete?
19 MR. LUKIC: Within the enclave.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Within the enclave.
21 Was there a time when you were not able to freely move around
22 within the enclave?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was a time. I think it was the end of
24 January, the beginning of February, that a part in the west enclave of
25 the enclave our freedom of movement was restricted.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation.
2 Q. You were no longer able to gain access to an area called the
3 Bandera triangle; right?
4 A. That's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there any dispute about the lack of freedom
6 of movement, because we've heard a lot of evidence, even elicited by the
7 Prosecution, that freedom of movement was not complete and that,
8 especially in the Bandera triangle, that there was no access for the
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: There really isn't, Mr. President. This is the
11 same material that we've heard before. They were disallowed access,
12 especially by Zulfo Tursunovic's units in the Bandera triangle.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so there no dispute about that.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. In fact, there's no dispute about much of
15 this. If there's any wish to make any agreements on the policy of the
16 BiH, their attacks outside of the enclave, many of these things were also
17 dealt with in the open statement. We pointed them out ourselves.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic, so therefore there's no -- unless
19 there's anything new you want to explore. We've heard this evidence a
20 couple of times. There's no dispute about it, so let's use our time
22 MR. LUKIC: I'll move on.
23 [Interpretation] Let us now look at 1D892.
24 [In English] I just checked, but this is also the same area, so I
25 will not continue with this document, since it's also Bandera triangle.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then please move on.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation.
3 Q. Can we agree -- this is the question. Is it true that ... since
4 you did not have access to the Bandera triangle --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, there's another good reason not to use
6 the last document because the translation is not a translation of the
7 same document. You have two different documents in the English and the
8 B/C/S. So if you want to use it ever in the future, take care that the
9 two are corresponding.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct that since you did not have access
12 to the Bandera triangle area, you were not aware of the activities
13 unfolding there? And I mean the activities undertaken by the BH army.
14 A. When you're not there, you can't see anything, so we weren't
15 aware what was going on over there.
16 Q. But there can be other sources other than physical presence. You
17 are telling us that you weren't aware of what was happening in the
18 Bandera triangle.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that an official decision was
21 taken within UNPROFOR to agree to there being no patrols within the
22 Bandera triangle? Is there such an agreement on the part of UNPROFOR?
23 A. Speaking about UNPROFOR, I think you mean with the Dutch
25 Q. [In English] DutchBat. [No interpretation].
1 A. I don't think there was an agreement, because all the time we
2 tried to get in our patrols and to get access to the area.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Is it correct that the commander of the DutchBat
4 ordered his troops not to patrol in that area?
5 JUDGE ORIE: What's the difference between this one and the
6 previous question, Mr. Lukic?
7 MR. LUKIC: The agreement might be in between maybe UNPROFOR and
8 Muslim side and obviously there was an order. And to be more clear, I'll
9 call 1D887 --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
11 MR. LUKIC: -- to the e-court. We need page 3. It's testimony
12 of this witness in Tolimir case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then go to -- to -- to what -- because you are
14 talking about an official decision was taken within UNPROFOR to agree --
15 unknown to agree with whom. It's all -- it lacks precision in your
16 questions, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: That's --
18 JUDGE ORIE: But let's then move to what you want to put to the
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes. We need page 3. It should correspond to page
21 6820 from transcript from Tolimir case. And we need lines 12 to 18. I
23 "Can you tell us, finally, who decided you should not patrol in
24 the Bandera triangle?
25 "A. Of course, I got my orders from the commander of the Dutch
1 battalion in the enclave and it might be possible that he got the orders
2 from commander UNPROFOR, but I really don't know. I know that finally
3 the commander of DutchBat ordered his troops not to patrol in the area."
4 Q. [Interpretation] Therefore, is it correct, and do you stand by
5 this testimony in the Tolimir case, that the commander of the Dutch
6 battalion ordered his troops not to patrol in the area of the Bandera
8 A. I think when I stated this in Tolimir case, of course, but you
9 can also seen in line 18, "Although we tried it several times ..."
10 And I don't know at what moment the order was given not to patrol
11 there. And my opinion now is that we tried all the time to get access to
12 that area, not only by patrolling there, and I don't know at what moment
13 the commander of the Dutch battalion took the position not to go in.
14 Q. So does your statement that the commander of the Dutch battalion
15 issued such an order to his troops still stand, or does it not stand
17 A. Yeah, in my opinion, it might be well possible that the commander
18 ordered not to patrol in the area. But I don't know for how long, but
19 it's possible, yes. I stay to this statement.
20 MR. LUKIC: I'm closing to an end, just to inform everybody.
21 I'll just go through my documents and see if I have some -- any last
22 questions. Give me one minute.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
24 MR. LUKIC: Only I want to inform Your Honours that we were
25 informed by the Prosecution yesterday that this ultimatum we discussed
1 yesterday was located among 65 ter Prosecutor's documents and it's 05751.
2 So ... it's basically --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If the parties think it useful and to have it in
4 evidence, because there have been several references to an ultimatum,
5 then --
6 MR. LUKIC: At least we would propose.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be tendered from the bar table?
8 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
11 JUDGE ORIE: The ultimatum. You can tender it from the bar table
12 now if you wish or if you leave it to Mr. Jeremy.
13 MR. LUKIC: I have to clarify something with the witness from
14 this document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then put it on the screen and then we'll see
16 it. And the -- already there's no objections against it to be admitted.
17 Madam Registrar, you have identified the document, 65 ter 05751.
18 MR. LUKIC: That's it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which page do you need, Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: First -- first page to see the -- so the witness can
21 see the first page and familiarise himself with the first page. And then
22 we need the second page.
23 Can we see the second page, please.
24 Q. [Interpretation] In this ultimatum, it is stated --
25 MR. LUKIC: I'll read it in English so -- then I can ask the
2 "The Bosnian Serb army resumed attacks against the Srebrenica
3 enclave on Friday, 7th July 1995. Firing indiscriminately into the safe
4 area and directly targeting UN facilities causing several civilian
6 Q. [Interpretation] Which date is this? When was it hit? Was the
7 7th? The 8th? The 9th? Or the 10th of July? And did, on any of these
8 days, a shell ever fall on the DutchBat compound?
9 A. I think you refer now to the shell that fell on the compound on
10 the Bravo Company on the 11th. I'm not aware of other shells in advance
11 of that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Lukic, it says "targeting UN facilities"
13 and not limited to the compound.
14 Are you aware of any -- any facilities having been target on
15 Friday, the 7th of July or any earlier? UN facilities.
16 THE WITNESS: Earlier, for sure, of course, because the attack on
17 OP Echo started in -- earlier than the 7th, I think. And after that,
18 also OP Foxtrot was attacked, and I think it started on the 7th of
19 July with the attack on OP Foxtrot when a Serbian tank fired on the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should remain seated.
21 THE WITNESS: When the Serbian tank fired on OP Foxtrot, I think
22 it was on the 7th.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there has been -- Mr. Lukic, I'm trying to
24 follow the text of what it is.
25 Yes, please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you know that the death of any civilian had been caused during
3 any one of these attacks or situations when fire was opened at UN
4 facilities, as is stated here?
5 A. I don't know what the target was, but I know in those periods --
6 or in this period several civilians were killed. And I don't know if
7 they were killed while they were in the vicinity of a UN facility or
8 somewhere else, and I don't know what the aim of the shooting was and
9 what the target was.
10 Q. Do you know where this information came from? The information
11 that is included in this ultimatum.
12 A. No, I don't know.
13 Q. Just this. Do you know -- this is a document of the 9th of July,
14 1995, as I see it.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please just see the first
16 page of this document.
17 Q. This is my question: Can you tell us what the date of this
18 document is? Is the document itself dated the 9th of July, 1995?
19 A. As far as I can see, it's -- it's the 9th of July, 1995.
20 Q. Thank you. We have information that throughout this period in
21 Srebrenica, only one civilian passed away. Do you have different
22 information? Is there more than one civilian fatality throughout that
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Throughout which period,
25 Mr. Lukic?
1 JUDGE ORIE: What's your period, Mr. Lukic?
2 MR. LUKIC: As of 2nd of July, 1995.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Last week -- one week before the 9th.
4 MR. LUKIC: One week before till the 13th.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You said that in this period several civilians died.
6 What period did you have in mind?
7 THE WITNESS: I should have a look in my diary, because I think
8 in my diaries, I got some information about shellings and casualties.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before you consult your diaries -- no problem,
10 Mr. Lukic?
11 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any problem.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No problem, Mr. Jeremy?
13 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please. You -- you may consult your diary.
15 THE WITNESS: I've got here in my diary on the 7th of July, in
16 the morning, some artillery fire results some casualties, civilians, in
17 Potocari and Srebrenica and possible death. In Srebrenica yesterday, so
18 the 6th of July, in the centre, a grenade. For sure, one death and seven
19 wounded. So ...
20 I don't have to go through it all, but ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, depends. Mr. Lukic, apparently the witness
22 his recollection is based on and can be confirmed to some extent by what
23 he wrote at the time. I don't know whether you want to further pursue
24 the matter or whether you want to move on.
25 MR. LUKIC: I think that we have confirmed one death from these
1 note the as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And one possible death. Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: But not confirmed, as I understood.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you whether you want -- of course, the
5 witness could go back in his diary and see whether there are more. If
6 you insist, but, at the same time ...
7 MR. LUKIC: We will -- actually, just ask one more question.
8 Q. [Interpretation] What are your sources of information concerning
9 that? Namely, that civilians were injured and that there is the
10 possibility of certain deaths. What is your source of information?
11 JUDGE ORIE: There's one dead and one possible death, Mr. Lukic.
12 We should quote the witness in accordance with his testimony.
13 THE WITNESS: About the victims of shelling, I don't know what
14 the sources were, specifically in this case, but the sources I usually
15 had when I wrote this down was either from the MSF, either from the UNMOs
16 or from the Dutch battalion.
17 MR. LUKIC:
18 Q. Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Including personal observation.
20 THE WITNESS: No personal observation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Now I'd just like to ask you something very
24 briefly about Naser Oric.
25 You know who he is, don't you?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Do you know when and how Naser Oric left Srebrenica? Also, do
3 you know whether that was done with UN assistance?
4 A. Starting with part number 3 of your question, it was not done
5 with UN assistance. I think that last time we spoke to him was in March,
6 and I have to check in my diary, because, after that, we dealt with
7 Mr. Becirovic, Ramiz. So from March or the beginning of April, he
8 disappeared from the enclave and I don't know how.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic should remain seated. And should speak
11 not aloud.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 MR. LUKIC: We have the book of Srebrenica stills. And on the
14 insistence of my client, I will show one photograph to the witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: I don't know the name -- the number of the exhibit.
17 It's trial video Srebrenica stills.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Which is number ...?
19 THE REGISTRAR: It should be P1148, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps, Mr. McCloskey could assist you. What
21 is the picture you would like to put to this witness?
22 MR. LUKIC: Since I didn't prepare this one --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand but if you say what it --
24 MR. LUKIC: It's page 41 in the book. I don't know in e-court,
25 probably --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely some 10 or 12 pages further.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I think it's e-court page 53.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 53. But ... 1148 is -- isn't that the video? No.
6 It's -- okay.
7 MR. LUKIC: That's -- that's the picture I'm looking for.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then ask your question, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 Q. [Interpretation] We see here that what is stated is that it's the
11 town of Srebrenica, the 12th of July, 1995, and what is documented is a
12 body in the street. Probably in Srebrenica.
13 Do you have any information about this man? And do you know
14 where he lost his life and what his name was?
15 A. No.
16 MR. LUKIC: That was my question --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, no further questions.
18 MR. LUKIC: No further questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Jeremy, could you give us an indication as to how much time
21 you'd need.
22 MR. JEREMY: Less than 15 minutes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Less than 15 minutes. Is that ten or five? Both
24 are less than 15 minutes.
25 MR. JEREMY: I would say between 10 and 15 minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Between 10 and 15 minutes. Then I suggest that we
2 take the break first. Then you have 10 to 15 minutes and then there is
3 close to half an hour left for the next witness to come and start his
5 We'd like to see you back after the break. As you may have
6 understood, we'll conclude your testimony today, Mr. Rave. You may
7 follow the usher.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes
10 to 2.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Rave, you'll now be re-examined by Mr. Jeremy.
16 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
17 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Could we please call to the screen 65 ter 05751. That's the
19 ultimatum document we were discussing just before the break.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
21 Q. Mr. Rave, on page 1 of this document, the following is written:
22 "Attached is the final version of the warning to the Bosnian
23 Serbs. We have sent it as a CAP SAT to General Mladic and we will issue
24 it as a press statement."
25 My question for you is: What is a CAP SAT?
1 A. A CAP SAT is a communication via the satellite, so that was the
2 only communication over bigger distances to use.
3 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I tender that document now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05751 receives number P1152,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 THE WITNESS: Maybe I can add something we had before about the
9 ultimatum. We were speaking about the ultimatum and targeting UN
10 facilities. I looked in my diary and found out that on the 6th of July,
11 three tank rounds were fired on the OP Foxtrot, so in advance of the date
12 of the 7th. And also on the 6th of July, rockets, artillery and mortar
13 grenades were fired into the enclave, and I found by myself a 14-year-old
14 boy who was wounded in the vicinity of Potocari. And at that same
15 moment, they told me that a 15-year-old girl was died. So I didn't see
16 it myself but that is information from the local population.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
19 MR. JEREMY:
20 Q. Mr. Rave, during cross-examination yesterday at T -- transcript
21 page 10204 and 10217, and also again today at transcript page 41 and 50,
22 you spoke about the -- the fall or the -- and the takeover of OP Echo.
23 In a sentence or two, could you describe what you are referring to by the
24 fall or the takeover of OP Echo?
25 A. Well, OP Echo was attacked in advance in the end of the May.
1 Colonel Vukovic and Major Nikolic talked to us because they wanted to use
2 the road on which OP Echo was in the southern part of the enclave. And I
3 don't know the exact date, but at a certain moment, I think about more
4 than 100 VRS soldiers attacked the OP with several types of weapons,
5 kicked out the manning of the OP and took it over.
6 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would ask the Court Officer to
7 please bring up 65 ter 05696.
8 Q. And while this is being brought up, this is a Drina Corps order
9 dated the 2nd of June, 1995, to the command of the Bratunac Brigade and
10 the commander of the Manoeuvre Battalion of the Drina Corps relating to
11 the taking control of Zeleni Jadar area. It's signed by Major-General
12 Milenko Zivanovic.
13 Mr. Rave, in paragraph 1 of the document, there's an order to the
14 battalion's deputy commander to "ensure full combat readiness towards
15 enemy and toward UNPROFOR check-point by 0500 on the 3rd of June."
16 Halfway down the second page in the English version, we see an
17 order for Legenda's soldiers to carefully approach the UNPROFOR location.
18 That's ... the quote goes on to say:
19 "This is the moment in which UNPROFOR is expected to surrender.
20 If the UNPROFOR continue threatening to use weapons towards Legenda, use
21 a Zolja to neutralise a personnel carrier."
22 It further goes on to say:
23 "Legenda and Petrovic shall take control of the UNPROFOR
25 Mr. Rave, are you aware of which UNPROFOR check-points this order
1 is referring to?
2 A. As I see this and I see the time schedule, the -- should be
3 OP Echo.
4 Q. And are you aware of what a Zolja is?
5 A. No. But when they want to neutralise a personnel carrier, I
6 think it's in -- RPG, rocket-propelled grenade, was one of things that is
7 able to neutralise an APC.
8 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I tender that document as the
9 next Prosecution exhibit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05696 receives number P1153,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. JEREMY:
15 Q. Mr. Rave, in relation to the same topic, I'd like to show you
16 another document and this is the Dutch debriefing document that we saw
17 yesterday, 65 ter 17353.
18 MR. JEREMY: If we can go to page 16 in the -- in e-court in
19 English and 21 in the B/C/S. That's paragraph 2.47 on page 15 of the
21 Q. And from the third line onwards this reads as follows:
22 "On the 3rd of June, OP E was attacked by the BSA using handheld
23 weapons, mortars and anti-tank weapons. OP E was surrendered and two new
24 OP Es (OP S and OP U) were immediately set up to take over the task of
25 OP E. From then onwards, DutchBat were no longer able to disarm BiH
1 soldiers, as there was ultimately no co-operation whatsoever from the
2 local authorities (including the local civilian [sic] police)."
3 Mr. Rave, does the paragraph that I have read out comport with
4 your recollection of events?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And was this attack on a DutchBat observation post part of an
7 isolated incident or was it part of a pattern of attacks by the VRS?
8 A. I think from that moment on the attack on the enclave started.
9 It was a try-out what the reactions from UNPROFOR would be, because in
10 advance of this attack they asked us to surrender and to hand over the
11 OP, at least the location. We told them at that moment that we wouldn't
12 do that, and eventually asked for close air support when the OP was
13 attacked. Well, at the end, they attacked the OP. I think we asked for
14 close air support but nothing happened. So they had the confirmation, in
15 my opinion, what they wanted.
16 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, in relation to this debriefing
17 document, it's clear that it's been used by Defence and Prosecution so
18 there are a number of relevant sections. It is, however, 101 pages long,
19 so I don't propose tendering that now, but my intention is to discuss the
20 document with Mr. Lukic and the Defence and come to agreement on what
21 paragraphs in that document we would tender to the Chamber.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Until now, I think quotes were always given,
23 so we have a full record at this moment. But if the parties can agree on
24 a selection to be tendered, then the Chamber is waiting to see the result
25 of your conversations.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for clarification on this page.
2 Mr. Rave, third line from the bottom of that page, it says:
3 "Able to disarm BiH soldiers ..."
4 Are you able to tell us what BiH soldiers mean here? Is it
5 Bosnian Serbs or the ABiH?
6 THE WITNESS: The ABiH soldiers in the enclave. At least at that
7 moment, some of them in uniforms, others in civilian clothes, who acted
8 as the Bosnian Muslims who defended the enclave.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 MR. JEREMY:
11 Q. Mr. Rave, moving to my last question --
12 MR. JEREMY: Can I ask that P793 be brought to our screens.
13 This is a -- this document is a DutchBat report from Srebrenica.
14 I'd like to go to page 4 of that document in the original and in the
16 Q. Mr. Rave, if I can draw your attention to the middle of the page,
17 where it says:
18 "Srebrenica update: DTG1131100B, July 1995."
19 Can you interpret the date and time for us of that?
20 A. It's the 13th of July, 11.00.
21 MR. JEREMY: And can we next go to page 5 of that document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I think it's now the 10th or the 15th
23 time that we ask witnesses to explain what the date, time, group is.
24 That is -- everyone in this courtroom should now be aware of it and we
25 can avoid it for the future.
1 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I should take this opportunity to
2 note that this question relates to the Bandera triangle which was
3 discussed with this witness today at temporary transcript page 55,
5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, now I did stop -- well, I didn't stop
6 Mr. Lukic, but I very much encouraged him only to explore new matters.
7 If it is a matter which, as Mr. McCloskey told us, is not in dispute,
8 then we should refrain from responding to what Mr. Lukic left out.
9 MR. JEREMY: The question is in a different category,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Different category, okay.
12 MR. JEREMY:
13 Q. Mr. Rave, if I can refer your attention to page 5 and I'd like to
14 draw your attention to the particular passage which states:
15 "The number of BiH soldiers that are taken POW by the Bosnian
16 Serb Army is not known yet, but General Mladic told the UNMO team and the
17 CO DutchBat that the BiH have several hundred dead soldiers in the area
18 of the Bandera triangle."
19 My question is: Apart from this statement from General Mladic,
20 were you aware of any information from your DutchBat sources that there
21 were several hundred dead BiH soldiers in the area of the Bandera
23 A. Not from sources within the -- the battalion, but General Mladic
24 himself told me that in the north-western part and not only inside the
25 enclave but also outside the enclave, lots of Muslims were killed and we
1 had to stop this because also a lot of VRS soldiers were killed.
2 So that's the only information I've got now.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. JEREMY: And thank you, Your Honours. I've no further
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no questions, questions in
9 re-examination have not triggered any -- have not triggered any further
10 questions by the Defence.
11 Mr. -- one second, please.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed to be seated now.
15 Mr. Rave, we -- first of all, I'd like to thank you very much for
16 coming and having answered all the questions that were put to you by the
17 parties and by the Bench. This concludes your testimony. I wish you a
18 safe return home again. But before doing so, we received a message
19 through the Victims and Witness Section. We'll pay proper attention to
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You -- you may follow the usher.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next
25 witness, Mr. Lukic, through VWS, the Chamber has received information
1 about inappropriate gestures made by the accused to this witness. We'll
2 verify that. We have an opportunity to do so. But just, it was
3 relatively at the end of the previous session. We preferred first to
4 conclude the testimony of the witness and then to find out what the
5 gestures were and to verify whether the witness described them
6 accurately. And the Chamber will consider whether any consequences will
7 be attached to it.
8 I leave it to that at this moment.
9 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey -- could the -- the witness may be
12 escorted into the courtroom.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy.
15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, may I be excused?
16 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused, Mr. Jeremy.
17 Mr. McCloskey, no protective measures; 92 ter?
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Van Duijn. Before you give
20 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. May I
21 invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the text is now
22 handed out to you by the usher.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Van Duijn. Please be seated.
1 Mr. Van Duijn, we have only 20 minutes left today and we'll
2 continue tomorrow but we didn't want to lose any time. Therefore you
3 will now be first examined by Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey is counsel
4 for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 WITNESS: LEENDERT VAN DUIJN
8 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
9 Q. Good afternoon.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Could you please state your full name and your current position
12 or title.
13 A. My name is Leendert Van Duijn. I'm actually now a commissioner
14 of the police, the Dutch national police.
15 Q. And have you had a chance to review your testimony from the
16 Popovic trial of 27 to 29 September, 2006?
17 A. Yes, I've had the opportunity, yes.
18 Q. And if you were asked the same questions that you were asked
19 then, would your answers be substantially the same?
20 A. Yes, they would be the same.
21 Q. And did you provide that -- that testimony, was it true and
23 A. It was true and correct.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have the reduced excerpts of
1 that transcript, the 46 pages that I would like to offer into evidence -
2 it's 28794 - along with the associated exhibits that are noted in the
4 MR. IVETIC: No new objections beyond that which was in the
5 Rule 92 ter response that was filed by the Defence, Your Honours.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, one of the reasons why the Chamber
8 prefers not transcript testimonies but rather statements is because
9 they're usually very lengthy. This one is relatively limited excerpts.
10 That doesn't mean that our guidance is not still valid and I said
11 something about it recently. Please take that seriously, but, at this
12 moment, we'll admit into evidence the transcript under Rule 92 ter.
13 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28794 receives number P1154,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P1154 is admitted into evidence. Associated
17 exhibits, Mr. McCloskey, are ...?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, they -- they --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Were they not reduced in number?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: They were noted as 65 ter number 05177. It
21 was -- and 153584, a few important photographs and an aerial image which
22 are noted in the -- on the filing.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
24 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05177 receives number P1155,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
4 THE REGISTRAR: And document 13584 receives number P1156,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Also admitted into evidence.
7 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if I may, I'll read a short summary.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You've explained to the witness the purpose of it?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]. You talked of an
12 aerial image. I see it's a separate 65 ter number. Aren't you tendering
13 that one? 13750?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: The number of the aerial image should be 13584.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. It's duplicated. Thank you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: From sometime in January through the
17 21st of July, 1995, Leen Van Duijn was a first lieutenant and platoon
18 commander in the Royal Dutch Army and a member of the DutchBat contingent
19 of the United Nations Protection Force assigned to the Srebrenica
20 enclave. The witness described the restrictions of the supply convoys to
21 the Srebrenica enclave imposed by the VRS and explained how this affected
22 DutchBat's ability to do their job and protect the enclave.
23 On 9 and 10 July, he was ordered to take two APCs and set up
24 blocking positions in the south of the enclave, in order to block the VRS
25 advance on the enclave. While taking up various positions along the
1 road, his APCs were targeted by the VRS numerous times, forcing him to
2 move steadily back towards the town of Srebrenica.
3 On 11 July, he withdrew to the UN base in Srebrenica and was
4 eventually ordered to withdraw back to the UN base in Potocari.
5 On 12 and 13 July, he was assigned to the Potocari area where he
6 was in charge of assisting the thousands of Muslim refugees who had
7 gathered there. During this time, he witnessed the separations of men
8 and boys from their families and spoke with various Serb officers working
9 there at that time. He also spoke to and was spoken by -- or spoken to
10 General Mladic.
11 All right.
12 Q. We all know you were --
13 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes your summary.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And now you want to ask him additional questions.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Just that it's clear on the record where we are.
18 We're now hearing the evidence, whereas you earlier summarised the 92 ter
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for doing that. I forgot that step.
21 All right. Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. It's -- it's clear now that you were a first lieutenant at
23 DutchBat. Can you briefly tell us, well, when you left the army and what
24 your position now -- what it now involves.
25 A. In 2000 I changed over within the armed forces, over to the Dutch
1 Royal Military Police, Royal Marechaussee, as it is called in the
2 Netherlands. And from 2008 on, I changed over to the Dutch police which
3 is now called the Dutch national police.
4 Q. And what is your current job and job responsibilities?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to ask the witness
6 to switch on and off the microphone whenever he speaks.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Van Duijn, we have a technical problem. Could
8 you switch off your microphone when you're not speaking because it gives
9 additional noise, and technicians are working on it but have not resolved
10 it yet. So therefore could you switch off, if you do not speak, and
11 switch it on again.
12 THE WITNESS: I'll do that, Your Honour.
13 Currently, I am now a commissioner of police in the Dutch
14 national police. I'm the national programme manager when it comes to the
15 fight against trafficking and smuggling of human beings. I do that with
16 the responsibility to coordinate and collaborate within police units,
17 expertise, intelligence and criminal investigations, but also with local
18 authorities and, for instance, victim assistance organisations. I work
19 for the deputy chief of police of the Dutch national police.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Okay. I won't spend a lot of time with you. I just want to have
22 you clarify a couple of points. We heard about the blocking positions.
23 Can you briefly describe what that job was and what happened? Just
24 briefly. The --
25 A. I was sent to take up the blocking positions south of the town of
1 Srebrenica. Actually, as the -- it was called blocking position, tried
2 to block the Serb forces that were threatening the -- the city and
3 basically the whole area. We stood there with more APCs than only my two
4 APCs and basically tried to stop the advancement of the Serb forces.
5 Q. Do you recall the first date that you and this group of APCs did
7 A. On the evening of the 9th, basically the first day that the
8 shelling started. On that evening, late in the evening, I moved up with
9 from APCs from Potocari base to Srebrenica base to help and assist the
10 Bravo Company that was responsible for the south of the enclave.
11 Q. And what did you do to try to stop that advance?
12 A. We took up positions south of the -- of the town, overseeing the
13 town that was in our backs, and -- and the south, basically also the --
14 the big roads, the one -- only one asphalted road in the enclave, and we
15 tried to stop the advancements by also shooting at the Serb forces that
16 were advancing and trying to stop them advancing. So we were shooting
17 and we were shot at in that position.
18 Q. And when you say you were shooting, what kind of weaponry did you
19 use to target the Serb forces?
20 A. We only had small-calibre rifles and, on top of our APCs, a heavy
22 Q. And tell us what happened when you took up these positions and
23 engaged the Serb forces like this.
24 A. From the start, we -- we took up the positions we were shelled,
25 and -- and the shelling was on our positions but also at the town, so
1 basically with intervals of one hour. That changed over to shelling the
2 town to shelling our positions, and then changed over to the town again,
3 and that lasted for one or two days that we were in the blocking
5 Q. When you took the blocking positions, did you open up fire on the
6 Serb forces prior to being shelled?
7 A. No, the shelling was starting right away, basically from the 9th
8 on, when I was still at Potocari. So the shelling started the evening of
9 the 9th, and when I arrived at the location of the blocking positions,
10 which changed slightly during the days of the 9th and the 10th, the
11 shelling was constantly going on. So the answer is no.
12 Q. In your direction, while you're at the blocking position?
13 A. Yes, in our direction, yeah.
14 Q. Were you able to make out what kind of shells, what kind of
15 rounds were targeting your blocking position?
16 A. From the military intelligence that we had, we knew there were
17 some 155-calibre artillery pieces stationed from the Serb army. So I
18 don't know for sure, but those were big calibre artillery fire shells.
19 Q. Did you ever -- were you ever targeted by tanks that you could --
20 as far as you know?
21 A. Not directly.
22 Q. And how long did you stay at that first blocking position and
23 what ...
24 A. As I remember correctly, we moved there in the night of the 9th,
25 so we stayed at the first location during the 10th. We drew -- we took
1 up another position that was, I think, 200 metres from the first one also
2 during the -- the 10th.
3 Q. And why did you withdraw from the first one?
4 A. The area we were in at the evening of the 9th, there were still
5 some refugees and civilians there, and during the day-time of the 10th,
6 the -- the area was basically clear of civilians. And there was a -- a
7 choice made by the Bravo Company commander, Captain Groen that we should
8 take up another position nearer to the asphalted road.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I seek clarification of one of
10 the previous answers.
11 You were asked whether you were ever targeted by tanks, as far as
12 you knew. Your answer was: "Not directly."
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Which is ambiguous for me. What do you mean by "not
15 directly"? That you have no first-hand knowledge or ...
16 THE WITNESS: We knew that there were Serb tanks in the area and
17 Serb tanks have directly attacked other Dutch units. Also the units
18 involved in the forward air controlling of the air support.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so --
20 THE WITNESS: So -- but not on my position. So I knew that there
21 were tanks in the area and we have seen tanks in the area but they didn't
22 attack us or my position directly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It is mainly an explanation of what the "you" means
24 here. Not you personally but other -- yes, please proceed,
25 Mr. McCloskey, for another two minutes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. And were there Muslim forces around your blocking positions at
3 any -- at any time during this period?
4 A. At the beginning there were, on and off. Sometimes also shooting
5 next to our location also in the direction of the Serb forces advancing,
6 but somewhere along the 10th, also the Muslim forces were -- were
7 withdrawn. So -- in the end of the -- I think the 10th or the 11th,
8 there were no Muslim forces there anymore.
9 Q. All right. And after the Muslim forces vacated your area, were
10 you ever targeted by the Serb forces, your APCs and people?
11 A. The shelling never stopped. From the 9th on, the shelling
12 commenced. So also when refugees or civilians or Muslim forces were not
13 anymore in the -- in the neighbourhood, the shelling still went on.
14 Q. And how close did these shells get to your APCs?
15 A. Sometimes within the reach of 50 to 100 metres of my APC. So
16 that -- even the dirt of the explosions came onto the APCs.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it's a good time to stop.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
20 Mr. Van Duijn, we'll conclude for the day. We'd like to see you
21 back tomorrow morning at half past 9.00 in this same courtroom. But
22 before you leave, I want to instruct you that you should not speak or
23 communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether
24 that is testimony you've given today, or whether that's testimony you are
25 expected to give tomorrow.
1 Is that clear to you?
2 THE WITNESS: That's clear, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may follow the usher.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
6 Thursday, the 25th of April, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
7 courtroom, I.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
10 April, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.