1 Thursday, 25 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, could you -- would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I'd first inform everyone that Judge Fluegge still, for urgent
11 personal reasons, is still unable to sit, and as we said yesterday, the
12 other Judges find it in the interests of justice to continue to hear this
13 case, under Rule 15 bis. Further, I inform everyone that if there's a
14 little problem with the sound, if certain microphones are switched on,
15 everyone is working hard on it, but it has not been resolved yet.
16 If there are no preliminaries, could the witness be escorted into
17 the courtroom.
18 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Van Duijn.
21 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
23 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President. Thank you very
1 much. We're ready.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 WITNESS: LEENDERT VAN DUIJN [Resumed]
5 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. I'd like to now take us briefly to -- to Potocari where, I think
9 we all understand you were working on the 12th and 13th, on those days
10 that the refugees were being transported. And I will soon show you a bit
11 of video that I know you'll recall from the 13th where you're in it. But
12 before we get to that section, can you just tell us, on the 12th and
13 13th, what was your job in Potocari?
14 A. On the 12th and 13th, I was basically leading the Dutch soldiers
15 that were outside the base. The rest of the soldiers and, of course, the
16 officers as well were back inside the base at Potocari, and when I came
17 back from the blocking positions, I basically positioned myself with my
18 soldiers between the -- the refugees. And after the enclave fell and the
19 Serb soldiers came in to our positions, I started leading the Dutch
20 soldiers, helping the refugees and aiding them wherever it was possible.
21 Q. And, again briefly, did you witness the separations of
22 able-bodied and older men and younger men from their families by the Serb
23 forces in Potocari?
24 A. Yes, I did. During the separations where we, of course, were in
25 the midst of, we saw that Serb soldiers separated able-bodied men from
1 the rest of the refugees, from their families.
2 Q. And what efforts, if any, did you and your men to do to relieve
3 any of the problems or pressure imposed by that separation?
4 A. My soldiers tried to -- to help in every way they could, trying
5 to keep people on their feet, to prevent being trampled on, because of
6 the heat, because of the crowded and chaotic situations. And I myself
7 spoke with Serb commanders and tried to convince them of letting men or
8 young boys and in that state men who were, in my opinion, too old or were
9 not able to be soldiers, Muslim soldiers, to let them go and to leave
10 with their families, to stay with their families.
11 Q. And did you have any success in influencing the separation -- the
12 lack of separation of some of those younger and older men?
13 A. I must say that every time I -- I tried to convince them, it
14 worked, so those men could stay with their families, or those boys were
15 not separated and could stay with their families. But, of course, there
16 were some incidents in grey areas that I still carry with me today, where
17 I did not stand up to them and ask the Serb commanders to let the men go.
18 But basically back to the question, every time I -- I -- I asked
19 them to and try to convince them to let the men stay, it worked, yes.
20 Q. So let's now go to P11 --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I ask one additional question.
22 How many times, approximately, did you make such an effort where
23 you succeeded? Was it five times, 20 times, 100 times? Could you give
24 us an indication?
25 THE WITNESS: That's very difficult to estimate, Your Honour, but
1 I think it -- somewhere between 50 and a hundred times a day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. Let's now go to the 13th of July, and P1147. And we have the
6 trial video from 05:41 to about 07:00. And I'll stop it occasionally and
7 may ask you a question.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Do you know this young man in the blue -- blue beret?
11 A. It's a long time ago, but I recognise myself, yes.
12 Q. All right. Let's -- let's watch it further then.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We've stopped at 06:07:5.
15 Q. This person that we see a bit of the side of his face, that's
16 putting his arm out towards you in a -- he's got a uniform, camouflage
17 jacket on, who was that person known to you as?
18 A. That's the Serb commander I know as Mane.
19 Q. And can you just briefly describe what your communication was
20 with him that day. Just generally.
21 A. Generally during the two days, because this is on the second day,
22 the 13th, but also on the 12th, he made it clear that he was the
23 commander on site, and basically he would tell me when and how many buses
24 or trucks would come, so how many refugees could go and try to board the
25 trucks and the -- and the buses. And I made the arrangement with him on
1 the 12th that basically -- and you cannot really see that in this video
2 because the -- the bulk of the refugees is already -- has already left.
3 But, in the beginning, we had a big group of refugees. We, as UN
4 soldiers, were basically in the middle of them, and helping them, and
5 then just 20 metres away from that were the Serb soldiers, and I made the
6 arrangement with Mane not to mix, so the Serb soldiers would not go to
7 the refugees because we, as UN soldiers, would stand there in the middle
8 of them.
9 Q. And did he identify his commander to you as someone in the --
10 that showed up in the crowd at some point?
11 A. He told me that his commander was known -- I only know the
12 nickname Stalin.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the identifications and the photographs we'll
14 leave to the 92 ter statement, Mr. President.
15 All right. Let's finish -- let's finish up the short video.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 Reporter: "Can I ask you something for independent television
18 for Belgrade?"
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. That's the only section. We'll stop
20 at 06:45:7.
21 Q. And I'd now like to go to a similar but related topic.
22 Did you have personal contact with General Mladic during these
23 two days while you were in Potocari?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And can you tell us in the best deal that you can recall, what,
1 if anything, he said to you or others around you? And just take your
2 time and just describe that as best you can.
3 A. The first conversation I had with General Mladic was practically
4 a general one about all sorts of topics: The weather, sports, the
5 situation, if I was the commanding officer from DutchBat at the site.
6 And then it gradually changed over to if I was from -- from which country
7 I was, and I was surprised by that question because I thought it was
8 clear that I was from the Netherlands and that DutchBat was from the
9 Netherlands. But, later on, it was clear to me why General Mladic asked
10 me that question because, 2 metres away from the position I was standing
11 and talking to General Mladic, there were a few Dutch soldiers resting,
12 drinking some water, just beside the road. And then he started asking
13 me, and pointing out to those soldiers individually and asking me if they
14 were also from the Netherlands. And he called it Holandija and he said,
15 Is that one also from Holandija? And they were all Caucasian, very
16 Dutch-like looking soldiers, but the last soldier was with a very dark
17 skin. I don't know his heritage but he was one of our soldiers. And he
18 was coloured. And General Mladic asked, when he came up to that soldier
19 and pointed him out to me, and he said -- he didn't ask me where he was
20 from and he said, Well, and that guy, is he from Ethiopia? And I
21 explained to him that that was also a Dutch soldier and that we have a
22 very multi-racial society in the Netherlands and that that worked for us
23 and that that soldier was also a Dutch soldier.
24 General Mladic then told me that that was a -- that he thought
25 that was a big problem for the Netherlands, to have a multi-racial
1 society. And he said to me that in ten years from then - so that was
2 1995 - in ten years from then, he would be in the Netherlands with his
3 soldiers to help the Dutch and protect them from the other --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, you remain seated. This is
5 the last warning. If you need to consult with counsel --
6 Mr. Lukic. Mr. Lukic.
7 Mr. Mladic remains seated and will be removed from the courtroom
8 because he -- when it happens again, if he stands. What Mr. Mladic does
9 is he expresses with his face agreement or disagreement with what the
10 witness says, and then, if he disagrees, he stands up and asks for
12 Now you know we have been relatively flexible on the
13 consultations on which we said they could take place only during the
14 breaks. We still allow consultations under two conditions.
15 Mr. Mladic, wait a second. Wait a second until I'm finished.
16 Two conditions. First, Mr. Mladic remains seated; second, he
17 speaks at such volume that no one else in this courtroom can possibly
18 hear him, that is, whispering. If not, consultations are limited to the
19 break again.
20 This happens now again and again. I warned Mr. Mladic several
21 times that he should not stand, which, under circumstances, may have an
22 intimidating effect, which the Chamber does not accept.
23 If Mr. Mladic now wants to consult, under the two conditions -
24 that is, whispering and remain seated - you have an opportunity to have
25 that consultation.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear Mr. Mladic. He should lower his voice.
4 Otherwise, he will have to wait until the break.
5 Mr. Van Duijn, let's resume where we were. You were telling us
6 about your conversation with Mr. Mladic, especially that he would be in a
7 the Netherlands in ten years from then and to help the Dutch and protect
8 them from ...
9 Could you please resume there.
10 THE WITNESS: He told me that he would be in the Netherlands with
11 his soldiers to protect the Dutch from other races and -- and also from
12 Muslims. And I told him that I would -- that I disagreed with him.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. And, sir, how was it you were able to communicate in this kind of
15 detail with the general at that point?
16 A. At that point during that conversation, his interpreter, so the
17 Serb interpreter, acted as a liaison between General Mladic and myself.
18 Q. And can you describe the other contact and communication you had
19 personally with General Mladic that day.
20 A. Late in that day, there was an incident in which I was told and
21 also heard a woman was acting hysterically and also using, at that point,
22 my Muslim interpreter, which was basically the interpreter from the Bravo
23 Company, but, at that time, Captain Groen was already back to the base at
24 Potocari. The interpreter had stayed and helped me during the day. So
25 with the help of that interpreter, I heard that the woman was acting
1 hysterically because she had lost her five children in the crowd. And
2 she thought her five children were still in the crowd, in her back. But,
3 at that point, we stopped the -- the -- the flow of refugees towards the
4 buses and the trucks, and she saw that her five children were already
5 aboard a truck, one of the last trucks of the convoy that was already
6 starting to leave. So we had stopped the flow of refugees and she was
7 still in the middle of them and then was starting to scream and trying to
8 get through the crowd. So we helped her out of the crowd and through the
9 interpreter I heard her story. And, at that point, we still had the
10 arrangement with Mane that we were standing between the refugees and the
11 buses. There was, I think, maybe 50 metres of -- of piece of the road
12 where no one would stand, and then next to the buses, the Serb soldiers
13 would -- would stand, and that was also the point where the singling out
14 of men would happen.
15 So but there were some sort of arrangement that also the Dutch
16 soldiers would not cross over to -- to that -- to that area. For me, it
17 was clear that I wanted to reunite the woman with her five children, and
18 I asked the interpreter if he could help me. I saw General Mladic
19 standing next to the other Serb soldiers basically in that area where I
20 wanted to -- to put the woman into one of the trucks that, as I said,
21 were already leaving. And I knew that he was the only one that could
22 prevent me being shot because I would be crossing a more or less border.
23 So I -- I asked the interpreter to go over to General Mladic and
24 to explain what I was doing, that I was not doing anything drastic or
25 trying to -- to stir up the arrangement but that I was just getting that
1 woman back to her children.
2 The Muslim interpreter hesitated because he didn't want to go
3 over to General Mladic. Of course, I understood him, that he was
4 terrified to do that. But I asked him to help, and I said, Well, I'm
5 going anyway, so if you want to help me, please do that. But I was not
6 sure that he would actually do that. So I picked up the lady and started
7 running and put her into the truck with her five children. And when I
8 turned around, I saw that the interpreter had actually went up to
9 General Mladic and was speaking to him. And based on the fact that I
10 didn't get shot, I concluded that he actually succeeded in convincing
11 General Mladic or keeping the situation as calm as possible.
12 Of course, I went up to my interpreter and to General Mladic to
13 see how that conversation was -- was going, and through the use of my
14 interpreter, General Mladic started telling me that he thought I was
15 crazy for caring and for trying to help Muslim refugees in that way, that
16 he was very angry of the fact, even more angry of the fact, that I had
17 sent a Muslim interpreter to speak to him directly because, at that time,
18 it wasn't clear for him that that the interpreter was speaking on my
19 behalf. And he told me, through the use of my own interpreter, so
20 through the use of the Muslim interpreter, that he would shoot the
21 interpreter on the spot, if that would happen again.
22 Actually, there was also some sort of a sick role play
23 General Mladic started to perform by pulling the interpreter close to his
24 body, put an arm around him and draw him to -- to his body, and he asked
25 me if I knew my own interpreter, and I, of course, was surprised and I
1 said, Yes, of course, it's my own interpreter. And he said, No, you're
2 wrong. The guy that's standing next to me, that's a good guy, that's a
3 stand-up guy, that's a Serb and you should respect him. And he asked me
4 then if I knew him, if I knew General Mladic. And I said, Of course, I
5 know that you are General Mladic. And then he said, No, I'm not
6 General Mladic, I'm a Muslim. I only think of making babies. And I
7 can't remember what he actually said, that he was a bastard or some other
8 swearing words.
9 So this was also what happened during that conversation. All the
10 time my Muslim interpreter had to -- to interpret the things
11 General Mladic said.
12 Q. Lastly, I'll go on to one short topic.
13 You have said before that there was a period where you saw
14 documents and materials on the ground. Can you tell us when that was and
15 what you thought that material was?
16 A. Basically after the -- after the footage we have just seen, you
17 could see that the -- the large part of the refugees were already -- had
18 already left, so I had time to focus on other things, which was an
19 incident concerning a water truck and where the Serbs tried to take a
20 water truck away from a place we had some people that were injured and
21 wounded placed, and the Medecins Sans Frontieres were helping them.
22 At that spot, I heard from several people that there -- the
23 situation at that location that we call the White House, just opposite of
24 the entrance of the base at Potocari, was troubling because there were
25 too many men that were singled out, held, and -- and I -- they asked me
1 to take a look there and to -- to see what the situation was.
2 So I went over there, and the commander, Serb commander, Mane and
3 his interpreter also followed me there, and that's where in the lawn of
4 that house, I saw a lot of passports and identity documents and other
5 personal belongings, just in the lawn of that -- of that White House.
6 Q. And did you make any comments about that material to anyone?
7 A. After assessing the situation and actually seeing that the house
8 was crammed up with singled-out men, I spoke with Mane that was also
9 there on site and ask him -- him why the -- the men could not keep their
10 passports, because the story he had told me earlier about singling out
11 the men had been about they having to check if the Muslim men they had
12 singled out were war criminals, and he told me that the Serbs had a list
13 of possible war criminals and they wanted to know if one of the men was
14 on that list.
15 So I asked him if it -- if the men did not have any identity
16 documents, how they would make sure the identity the men would give was
17 also the true identity. And then he grinned at me and he told me that
18 they -- the men that there were in that house didn't need those documents
20 So then it became clear to me that the dark fate that we already
21 thought they would await them became even darker.
22 Q. Thank you for coming, once again, to this Tribunal.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have nothing further.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
25 Mr. Ivetic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
1 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Van Duijn, you'll now be cross-examined by
3 Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
4 Mr. Ivetic.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Good day, Mr. Van Duijn.
8 A. Good day, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Q. Sir, before I begin with my questions for you I would like to
10 first advise you to play close attention to the actual questions to try
11 to ensure that your answers are directed as closely as possible to my
12 question. And if you don't understand one of my questions, please do not
13 hesitate to bring it to my attention. If that's understood, then we can
15 A. That's clear.
16 Q. All right, then. First of all, sir, I'd like to ask you, prior
17 to your deployment to the enclave of Srebrenica in 1995, did you have
18 occasion to receive any instruction or training relative to the specific
19 constitutional or legal framework of the Socialist Federal Republic of
20 Yugoslavia or the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. My training prior to the mission was more a military training,
22 and, of course, it took into account the political situation, but that
23 was not the focus of the training which I received. And, of course, I
24 was then a platoon commander at the time.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that the training was more of a
1 military nature. Did it involve any instruction as to the military
2 structure of the Territorial Defence system or the Army of
3 Republika Srpska or the Army of BiH as to their structure and operative
5 A. If I recall correctly, we had some general information about the
6 basic structure, but the training was more focussed on the area in which
7 we were deployed and the military units we possibly would encounter in
8 the area where we were. So the Srebrenica area.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. And one -- one other item of background before
10 we move to more specifics.
11 I understand that in 1999, that is, after your deployment to the
12 former Yugoslavia was completed, you were promoted to a captain position
13 and served as an intelligence officer in the Royal Dutch Army. And this
14 is from page 5 of your Rule 92 ter transcript, which is Exhibit P1154.
15 What I want to know is if you performed any duties as an
16 intelligence officer while you were deployed in Srebrenica as part of the
17 Dutch battalion?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I do want to focus a little bit more on the
20 training and briefing that you did receive prior to arriving in
22 First of all, am I correct that as a platoon commander you had
23 34 men subordinated under you?
24 A. I think the number is correct, yes.
25 Q. And while you were 24 years old at the time, most of the men
1 under you would have been an average of 19 to 20 years old; is that
3 A. I think that's a good estimation, yeah.
4 Q. And would you agree that neither you nor the persons under you in
5 your platoon had, prior to Srebrenica, experienced any sort of combat
6 mission or been in a combat zone?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Now, before you arrived at Srebrenica, am I correct that you and
9 the other soldiers of your platoon and, indeed, of the DutchBat battalion
10 attended a training course for both the air mobile unit that you were in
11 and a special training course for a mission both conducted by the Royal
12 Dutch Army?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And just to be clear apart from this training that was undertaken
15 on the part of the Royal Dutch Army, you did not undergo any additional
16 or special training from any other UN personnel that were not part of the
17 Royal Dutch Army?
18 A. No, we did not.
19 Q. Now, as part of this mission-specific training that you received
20 from the Royal Dutch Army prior to your deployment, am I correct that you
21 also had a introduction to the historical backdrop of the creation of the
22 enclave of Srebrenica; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And is it also correct that this mission-specific training
25 included instruction on the UN Security Council's special resolution and
1 the cease-fire agreement that applied to the enclave of Srebrenica?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Now, after you completed your training and when you deployed to
4 Srebrenica in 1995, did you, as a member of the Dutch battalion,
5 understand your mission to be, in part, aimed at upholding the letter of
6 the Security Council resolution and the cease-fire agreement in the
8 A. Yes, we understood the mission.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, perhaps could we specify when you are
10 asking about a Security Council resolution and when you're telling us
11 about Security Council resolution, which one do you have in mind?
12 MR. IVETIC: The 1993 resolution when the enclave was created,
13 Your Honours. I don't have the number off the top of my head but we're
14 about to go into the details of exactly what was specified therein and
15 that the -- I believe the gentleman will confirm those are items that he
16 was instructed to be part of his mission.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The 1993. In which the ... in which the enclave was
18 created. Let's proceed --
19 MR. IVETIC: Number P23, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P23, yes.
21 MR. IVETIC: Dated 8th of May, 1993.
22 Q. Sir, I'd like to try now to add some specifics to this general
23 discussion and I think the easiest way to do so would be to direct your
24 attention to some prior testimony that you gave and to see if it is all
25 correct from the Popovic case, 29 September 2006.
1 MR. IVETIC: If I can call up in e-court 65 ter number 1D898 and
2 if we can --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you were quite helpful in referring me
4 to me to P23 which is not the Security Council resolution.
5 So, therefore, in order to avoid all kind of misunderstandings, I
6 want to be very precise on what legal instruments are at the basis of
7 your questions and of the answers.
8 P23 is an agreement between Mr. Mladic and Mr. Halilovic about
9 demilitarisation - we have dealt with that briefly yesterday - in which
10 the UNPROFOR was a witness to that agreement and received certain tasks
11 under that agreement.
12 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, the bases of my questions are
13 entirely upon interviews, statements, prior testimony of this witness
14 that have been disclosed to us.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you're referring to United Nations
16 Security Council resolution, then to hide yourself behind what others
17 have said seems not to be what assists the Chamber.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if I could assist Mr. Ivetic and
19 the Chamber, it's -- Resolution 824 is P22, and Resolution 836, P24.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And they're both 1993?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the reason why I asked which one of
23 1993. I don't know whether I asked it, but ...
24 Mr. Ivetic, we have two Security Council resolutions in 1993. We
25 have one agreement on demilitarisation. Would you please be very precise
1 in your questions.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 If we can call up in e-court 65 ter number 1D898. And if we can
5 turn to page 3 of the same, which should correlate to transcript
6 page 2390 of the underlying transcript, and focus then on lines 18
7 through 22 of the document. There is only one language so if you could
8 perhaps zoom to make it easier for the witness to follow.
9 Q. And, sir, if you'll follow along with me, the section I'd like to
10 ask you about begins at line 18 and states as follows:
11 "Q. And I don't want to go through them but under brief
12 headings, that there should be a cease-fire, that the area should be
13 demarcated, that the area should be demilitarised, that paramilitary and
14 military units should leave the area. That was your mission as you
15 understood it, was it?
16 "A. Yes."
17 And, sir, now I have to ask you whether you stand by this
18 selection of your testimony from the Popovic case as being truthful and
19 accurate as to your understanding of the mission you had at the time you
20 were deployed to Srebrenica in 1995.
21 A. That is accurate, yes.
22 Q. And could you tell me now, sir, specifically in relation to your
23 understanding that the enclave of Srebrenica should be demilitarised,
24 from where did this understanding come from?
25 A. I don't really understand the question, Mr. Ivetic.
1 Q. Let me rephrase the question, sir.
2 Your understanding that part of the mission involved enforcing
3 that the area should be demilitarised, where did this understanding come
4 from? Was it expressed to you by your superiors? Was it something you
6 A. A specific part of our training was to uphold and to keep in
7 place the cease-fire and the integrity of the demilitarised zone. So
8 prior to the mission, I was told in -- during our training that this was
9 the -- the situation in the area.
10 And to make a small correction. We did not have the -- nor the
11 power, nor the -- the task to enforce the demilitarisation of the area,
12 just to uphold the cease-fire.
13 Q. And, sir, upon your deployment to the enclave, did you, in fact,
14 have occasion to conclude that the cease-fire was a thing that existed
15 only on paper and was not, in effect, on the ground?
16 A. The situation in the enclave was -- was different from the
17 training we had received prior, yes.
18 Q. And do you agree with my statement that there was no actual
19 cease-fire that existed on the ground?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And now we will go into more detail later in this aspect but I
22 just want to ask you first: Was it also your appraisal that the enclave
23 had not, in fact, been demilitarised and still had an armed Bosnian
24 Muslim group operating from within it when you deployed?
25 A. There was still an armed group, an armed Bosnian Muslim group,
1 operating, that's correct. The demilitarisation had not been completed.
2 They started and had -- had some effect, but it was not completed.
3 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to explore with you a little bit
4 more the issue of demilitarisation of the enclave.
5 And first I'd like to ask you about something that another
6 witness has testified about to see if it is in accord with what you --
7 your knowledge of what you saw.
8 MR. IVETIC: And to do so, I'd like to call up Exhibit P00057 in
9 e-court --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we have a good practice that we first
11 ask the witness what he knows and, after that, put to him what other
12 witnesses said, if there's any need -- still any need to do so. And I
13 invite you to follow that good practice.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Q. Sir, was it your experience while on the ground in Srebrenica
16 that as the days progressed, more and more armed Muslim fighters would be
17 seen than previously walking around?
18 A. I don't recall if we saw, when -- when it comes to numbers, more
19 armed Muslim fighters, but as the days progressed and during the
20 missions -- during the -- the time of the mission, there was more
21 activity on both sides.
22 Q. And just so we're clear, when you use the term "activity," I
23 presume you mean military or combat activity. Is that accurate?
24 A. That's accurate. I refer to shootings, detonations, patrols.
25 Military activity, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We -- we started with the presence. That was -- the
2 question was about presence, whether you'd see more armed Muslim
3 fighters. You said, Well, whether there were more or not, activity was
4 more. And you said on both sides. But should I understand, then, that
5 both sides being present, or do you mean combat activity, the Serb forces
6 from outside and the Muslim forces from inside the enclave? Is that how
7 I have to understand your answer?
8 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour. Serb forces were more
9 active outside the enclave, yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And where was their activity directed to?
11 THE WITNESS: Sometimes they would shoot at us or just at -- at
12 the town. And the activities we could also see was patrolling or vehicle
13 movements outside the area, and we could see that from our
14 observations -- observation posts. And, of course, we also had some
15 information from inside the enclave and where we were -- where we would
16 be patrolling, we could also get into contact also sometimes by shooting
17 with Muslim forces.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Now, sir, did you have occasion to hear about or have knowledge
21 about an incident when some Dutch battalion colleagues were taken captive
22 by the Bosnian Muslim forces at an area known as the Bandera triangle?
23 And, if so, can you tell us about that.
24 A. I only know what the -- the -- the stories were from second-hand.
25 So I heard about those incidents, but that was not in the area I was
1 responsible for.
2 Q. The question I do have arising from that is: The Bandera
3 triangle, am I correct that this is a geographic feature that was within
4 the confines of the enclave of Srebrenica which, as you understood it,
5 was supposed to be demilitarised?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, about the Bandera triangle, we -- I
7 think we've heard some evidence on that, and we established one of these
8 days that there's no dispute about that.
9 Therefore, when Mr. Lukic was invited to put any questions to one
10 of the previous witnesses which would shed new light or would explore new
11 elements he was invited to do so, but that we should not hear, again, the
12 same evidence on a matter which is not in dispute.
13 Looking at the clock, I see it's time for a break anyhow. You
14 might want to consider that for your questions after the break.
15 Mr. Van Duijn, we take a break of 20 minutes. You may follow the
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to
21 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the Armija BiH personnel that
4 you saw in the course of your deployment to the Srebrenica enclave, in
5 fact, often had infantry weapons that appeared to be brand new? By
6 infantry weapons, I mean Kalashnikovs.
7 A. I wouldn't say often, but at some stage later on during our
8 mission, we could see that some new weapons were carried by Muslim
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to turn to your Rule 92 ter
11 testimony for a moment.
12 MR. IVETIC: That would be Exhibit P1154. And if we could look
13 for the ninth page of that in e-court, that should correlate to
14 transcript page 2262 in the original numbering.
15 And if we could focus ... I apologise. That does not appear to
16 be the correct page. I'm -- it should be 2262 at the top. So if we
17 could go -- I said the ninth page. I see we're at the 23rd.
18 Should be 2262, the prior page. Thank you.
19 If we could focus now at lines ten through 18 of the -- of the
20 92 ter transcript that we have.
21 Q. Here, sir, if you could follow along, I do not need to, I think,
22 read it into the record since it's already part of the record. You're
23 talking about the fact that the state of the Dutch infantry weapons that
24 you and other members of the Dutch battalion had access to and describe
25 that due to the weather conditions and that they had been in Srebrenica
1 since the first DutchBat deployment, that they were too old to be used
2 safely, with bullets falling apart and the humidity indicators on
3 rocket-launchers in the danger zone.
4 The question I have for you, sir: Was this the result of an
5 inability to resupply?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Now, the Armija BiH fighters that you saw in the enclave, did
8 they appear to have the same difficulties in relation to their infantry
9 weapons and rocket-launchers as the Dutch side was experiencing or did
10 they seem to have an ability to resupply?
11 A. I have no information of the difficulties the Muslim forces had
12 in their resupplying.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one follow-up question.
14 Exactly what was the cause of the impossibility to resupply?
15 THE WITNESS: The -- the actual permits were not given by the
16 Serb forces that were in charge of the -- the OP Papa area, which was the
17 only asphalted road on which the through convoys would enter, if that was
18 possible. But all the convoys basically from March on were not given
19 permission by the -- by the Serb forces.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any personal knowledge of that?
21 Is it what you heard? Is it hearsay? What's -- because you testified
22 about it, did you personally experience that to be the reason? Or did
23 you hear it? Could you tell us more?
24 THE WITNESS: In my conversations with the logistics officers, I
25 heard of their difficulties trying to get the clearances and what was
1 needed to -- to -- to address with the Serb forces to -- to get those
2 clearances. And, of course, later on, the disappointment with -- on
3 their behalf when the clearances were not being given. And then we heard
4 also from those logistics officers that the convoys were on their way but
5 stopped at some check-point in another area.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to hear about or witness any UN
9 personnel - and when I say that, I'm not limiting it to DutchBat -
10 supplying or trading with the Bosnian Muslims in relation to weapons and
12 A. No, I have no knowledge about that.
13 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about something that you
14 testified about in another case, the Blagojevic and Jokic case.
15 MR. IVETIC: If we have 65 ter number 1D896. And it should be
16 page 30 in the e-court, which should correlate to transcript page 1102 of
17 that underlying transcript. And if we could focus on line 18 and
19 Q. And, sir, I will read and invite to you follow along, to follow
20 this section, which bleeds onto the next page and begins as follows:
21 "Q. Okay. But the whole purpose was that this area, this
22 enclave, was going to be protected by the UN and the Serbs were supposed
23 to abide that neutrality in the zone, provided of course that that -- the
24 people inside were totally demilitarised, right?
25 "A. That was the agreement, yes.
1 "Q. That was the agreement. But when you got there on the
2 ground and throughout the whole period that you were there, it was never
3 demilitarised, was it?"
4 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to the next page.
5 Q. "A. Not totally, no.
6 "Q. Well, it's like saying a little pregnant, either
7 demilitarised or isn't, right?
8 "A. When you want to demilitarise, then you have -- you need a
9 certain amount of soldiers. You look at the area and being that big when
10 you have so little soldiers, then it's not possible to demilitarise it
11 when you only have 200, 300 fighting soldiers.
12 "Q. All right. But when you're talking about the 200 or 300
13 fighting soldiers, you're talking about DutchBat; right?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. All right. Of course, this is 1995, it was declared
16 demilitarised back in 1993 so I take it - and it's no fault of DutchBats
17 but everybody that preceded you failed to keep the place demilitarised,
19 "A. We knew that the Muslims had arms, yes.
20 "Q. Okay. But my question was everybody that preceded you
21 failed to take away the weapons, right?
22 "A. They didn't take the weapons no."
23 Sir, with respect to this excerpt from your testimony from the
24 other proceeding that I've just read out for you and that you followed
25 along, can you confirm for the record whether this is truthful and
1 accurate as to everything that you said and that you would so say again
2 if asked again under the solemn declaration.
3 A. It's truthful and accurate.
4 Q. And if I can ask one follow-up or two.
5 With respect to the position that the DutchBat did not have
6 sufficient personnel with just 200 or 300 soldiers to demilitarise the
7 enclave, was this something that either you, your colleagues, our your
8 commanders reported upwards to UNPROFOR commanders, whether in Sarajevo
9 or in Zagreb, if you know?
10 A. The fact that we, in July 1995, only had 2- to 300 soldiers, was
11 also due to the fact that with the humanitarian aid convoys or food or
12 resupplying convoys for DutchBat, also the convoys which took soldiers on
13 their leave were also not able to come back due to the fact of the
14 permission that was not given by the -- the Serb check-points. And I
15 know that -- I heard about it, that Colonel Karremans personally also
16 made several reports to the UNPROFOR Command to tell them that there was
17 a troubling situation arising because of the lack of personnel and the
18 lack of supplies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there is a suggestion in your question
20 as -- that demilitarisation was the task of UNPROFOR, I take it. Is that
21 what you find in the agreement? If so, then I better understand your
22 question. Whether your interpretation is right or wrong but ...
23 MR. IVETIC: My question was related to the testimony of the
24 witness when he was talking about when you want to demilitarise. I'm
25 asking whether any of that was communicated upwards to see whether they
1 were discussing whether, in fact, demilitarisation was a task that had
2 been tasked.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have the perception of the witness.
4 Perhaps we should ask him.
5 Was it, Witness, your task to demilitarise the area or were the
6 parties to demilitarise it? What, in your view, was the situation?
7 THE WITNESS: Our objective was to uphold the demilitarised zone.
8 And whenever we would get into contact with weapons or see that Muslim
9 forces would carry weapons, we -- we had the -- it was part of the
10 mission that we would try to take those weapons in. But due to the fact
11 that we had so little personnel, there was no separate activity other
12 than asking the Muslim forces to hand over their weapons and also abiding
13 the agreement that the area should be demilitarised.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Should -- should they have been there at all under
15 the existing regime? Should there have been any military presence of the
17 THE WITNESS: No, that was not the -- that -- that was not the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer is a bit ambiguous. Was it the
20 agreement that they should not be there or was it not the agreement that
21 they --
22 Could you please ...
23 THE WITNESS: They should not be there.
24 JUDGE ORIE: They should not be there.
25 THE WITNESS: They should not be there. No military activities
1 from the Muslim forces should be there. But they were.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to that extent -- do you --
3 demilitarisation, when you're talking about it, do you mean to remove or
4 get rid of any military presence and activity; or do you understand it to
5 be to seize weapons or -- what's your understanding of what
6 demilitarisation means?
7 THE WITNESS: Basically the -- the moments we would see that
8 Muslim forces had weapons was because we were being shot during our
9 patrols in the -- in the area.
10 So in -- in such -- in such a way, and in those situations, it's
11 not a discussion or asking the Muslim soldier that's shooting you to hand
12 over his weapon. So we could see sometimes that Muslim men were carrying
13 weapons, and -- but most of the time we only would know it because they
14 were shooting at us.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you then tell them that they shouldn't be there?
16 THE WITNESS: I had several contacts with Muslim commanders in
17 the area which I was responsible for, which was the northeastern part of
18 the enclave and also had the observation post Quebec and Romeo in that
19 area. And of course, I spoke with those Muslim commanders that they
20 shouldn't be there carrying weapons.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But should they be there at all? I'm talking
22 about military presence and military activity.
23 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's difficult to make a clear separation
24 between the refugees and -- and the population that was in the enclave
25 and say, Okay, those were refugees and civilians, and those men are
1 soldiers. Because it was not as -- as organised as we -- as we were.
2 So it's -- it's difficult to say that -- we could -- we could
3 speak to one of the men in -- in a village and he would be a civilian and
4 dressed in civilian clothes, and maybe an hour later he would go up with
5 a weapon, take up a weapon, and then maybe shoot at us or at the Serb
7 So it was not clear to see, well, this is the military presence
8 and these are the civilians.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And you had asked me if it
11 was part of the agreement. P23, the 8 May 1993 agreement signed by
12 General Mladic, General Halilovic and by General Morillon on behalf of
13 UNPROFOR, at part 1, Article 5, does have in the agreement the
14 description of the role of UNPROFOR in relation to enforcing or
15 controlling, I should say, the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And who -- from whom were weapons to be seized
17 in Article 5, Mr. Ivetic?
18 MR. IVETIC: Any weapons coming in and any persons, it says, in
19 Serbian. [Interpretation] "... Any of the soldiers would not be allowed
20 to enter or be in the excluded zone."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you said something about the task of
22 UNPROFOR. This is an obligation for soldiers, isn't it? And you were
23 referring to paragraph 5. Let me have the text with it for a second.
24 Perhaps we could have it on our screen --
25 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... English version. It's on
1 page 2 of P23 in the English, Your Honour. It says UNPROFOR shall
2 control the demilitarised zone and then it goes to detail all these
3 things that I have been reading to you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And from whom were the weapons to be seized?
5 MR. IVETIC: Any armed persons.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any armed persons. Let me check. One second,
8 "Non-combatants who are in or who are willing to enter the
9 demilitarised zone, except members of UNPROFOR, are not permitted to have
10 in their possession any weapon, ammunition, or explosives. Weapons,
11 ammunition, and explosives in their possession shall be seized by
13 Here that is about non-combatants. I --
14 MR. IVETIC: Next line, Your Honour.
15 "Combatants will not be allowed to enter or be in the
16 demilitarised zone."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think there's no disagreement that --
18 but I'm looking at the Prosecution as well, that that's what combatants
19 shouldn't do. We are also talking about seizure of weapons.
20 Article 5, the last paragraph, gives no specific task, it seems,
21 to UNPROFOR. But I'm happy to find any other provision where the
22 UNPROFOR tasks, as we find in the fourth paragraph of Article 5, are set
23 out in further detail.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. Now, sir, you had testified about some difficulties in getting
2 DutchBat personnel back from leave that caused the numbers in the enclave
3 to dip. Am I correct that even prior to those individuals leaving, the
4 zone still had not been -- still was not demilitarised? That is to say,
5 the personnel that were originally deployed, whatever that number was, I
6 presume it was more than 300, would not have been sufficient to
7 demilitarise an area of the size of the Srebrenica enclave?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 Q. Did the Dutch battalion have -- or UNPROFOR, to your knowledge,
10 have any figures or estimates as to the strength of the armed Bosnian
11 Muslim contingent in the Srebrenica enclave in 1995?
12 A. I don't have any recollection of that. Maybe there were some
13 estimates during that time, but I don't have any recollection of that
15 Q. That's fair enough. Now, was a problem that you were
16 experiencing -- you indicated oftentimes that you were -- UNPROFOR would
17 be fired upon by Bosnian Muslims. Would it also be the case that,
18 whether fired upon or not, when you saw Bosnian Muslims armed with
19 weapons and when you tried to disarm them, they would run away and
20 disappear into the terrain since they knew it better?
21 A. Yes, that's true.
22 Q. And was it also correct that you did not have the capability of
23 doing all the patrolling that had been envisioned, such that you did not
24 have an ability to exert control over the entirety of the terrain that
25 was within the zone of responsibility of your duties, that northern part
1 of the enclave?
2 A. That's also correct.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you about an individual named
4 Nasir Sabanovic. If you can tell me who he was in 1995, his position,
5 and if you had occasion to encounter this individual?
6 A. Nasir Sabanovic was a military commander, Bosnian Muslim
7 commander, in the -- in the area of my responsibility. And most of the
8 time when I was staying at OP Quebec, I would have conversations with him
9 about his activities and what he thought of the activities of the Serb
10 forces on -- on the other side of the -- outside of the enclave.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Van Duijn, there's no need to switch off your
12 microphone any further because the technical problems have been resolved
13 and the rumble is gone. So that you can concentrate on the questions and
14 on your answers.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. That assists me as well.
17 Q. Sir, would there be occasions when Mr. Sabanovic or other Bosnian
18 Muslim military leaders would be meeting with yourself or with your
19 superiors in the Dutch battalion and in the course of those meetings
20 would be armed with side-arms?
21 A. At some occasions, Nasir Sabanovic would have side-arms with him,
23 Q. Did anyone on the part of the UNPROFOR Dutch battalion ever tell
24 Mr. Sabanovic that he should not be armed or try to disarm him?
25 A. The meetings I had with him, because he did not have meetings
1 with my superiors, meetings I had with him, I told him that he should not
2 carry a weapon, but I did not try to disarm him.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, same follow-up question.
4 Did you tell him that he should not be in the enclave. You talk
5 about him as a military commander of the Muslim forces. Earlier we
6 established that they shouldn't be there. You explained what
7 difficulties you would have to define exactly who would be a -- a soldier
8 and who would be a non-combatant. But for Mr. Sabanovic, there could
9 hardly be any doubt as to his military status.
10 First, do you agree with that; and, second, was he ever told that
11 he shouldn't be there?
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I don't -- I do not agree with that.
13 Because every time I spoke with Nasir Sabanovic he would always tell me
14 that he did not want to be in that situation. And also, if I remember
15 correctly, every time I had a conversation with him, he was always
16 dressed in civilian clothes, never in -- in -- never in uniform. And he
17 would explain to me that he was, due to the situation, forced to -- to
18 take up arms.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you describe him yourself as a military
20 commander. Are you saying there should be no military presence? You
21 explained your difficulties and whatever he may have been dressed in,
22 isn't it true that you considered him to be a military leader? And under
23 the demilitarisation agreement, no military leader should be there, no
24 military presence at all should be there.
25 Did you ever tell him? And you said he didn't want to be in that
1 situation. Does that change anything under the terms of the agreement?
2 THE WITNESS: The -- the difficulty there is to -- to see if he
3 was a military commander as I saw him, because he was the only commander
4 in the area that I could speak to, I think that one -- in one of the
5 occasions I had a conversation with him, he told me that he saw himself
6 as a civilian.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just ... I'm just reading your:
8 "Nasir Sabanovic was a military commander, Bosnian Muslim
9 commander, in the area of my responsibility. And most of the time when I
10 was staying at OP Quebec, I would have conversations with him about his
11 activities and what he thought of the activities of the Serb forces on
12 the other side of the enclave."
13 Whether he saw himself as a civilian, if someone arrives with a
14 tank and says, I'm a civilian, you describe him as a military commander.
15 If you say, Perhaps I should have told him, that's -- that's
16 fine, but it seems that you are -- in your answers, you are making him a
17 quasi civilian where you started by saying that you discussed his
18 activities and you mentioned him a military commander.
19 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I can imagine that you say, well, perhaps he
21 should have acted differently. My question simply was: Did you ever
22 tell him that military commanders should not be there?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I never told him.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Basically I was -- I was glad that I had some sort
1 of a chain of command when it came to the Muslim soldiers in that area.
2 Because I could also speak to him about shootings that would happen from
3 inside the enclave on our UN forces.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You say it had certain advantages for you to keep
5 the status quo, as it was, including the military presence. Is that -- I
6 have to understand your answer?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Sir, in the course of your interactions and discussions with
11 Mr. Nasir Sabanovic was he, in fact, rather candid about his
12 participation in combat and sabotage activities, such as military
13 activities including going outside the enclave, setting mines and
14 destroying -- destroying Serb military assets?
15 A. He was very candid about that. And yes, that's true. He told me
16 that he would go on patrol outside of the enclave and, as you described,
17 placing mines, actually performing raids outside of the enclave, that's
19 Q. Did he ever tell you any stories about his -- about himself or --
20 or -- or Muslim soldiers going out and burning down Serb villages
21 surrounding Srebrenica enclave?
22 A. I don't remember if he actually spoke about burning down
23 villages, but he spoke about performing raids and placing mines and --
24 and those kinds of -- and those kinds of activities, yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now let me take a step back away from Mr. Sabanovic and
1 ask you a more general question.
2 Did you ever have occasion to find out about or hear stories
3 about incidents where Muslim soldiers going out from the Srebrenica
4 enclave burned down Serb villages?
5 A. I've heard stories about that, yes, in other areas that were not
6 under my responsibility but in the enclave.
7 Q. And the question I have for you is you say you heard stories.
8 Can you enlighten us from what types of sources you heard about these
9 stories happening where Bosnian Muslim fighters from within Srebrenica
10 went outside the enclave and burnt down Serb villages?
11 A. From other commanders, like myself, UN commanders, I mean.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm a bit puzzled by one of the previous
13 answers. The question was whether you ever found out about or hear
14 stories about Muslim soldiers going out from the Srebrenica enclave
15 burning down Serb villages.
16 Your answer was:
17 "I've heard stories about that, yes, in other areas that were not
18 under my responsibility but in the enclave."
19 Did you want to say that you heard it in the enclave or that it
20 happened in the enclave? Because the question was about going out of the
22 THE WITNESS: It did not happen in the enclave. I heard it from
23 other commanders, colleagues of mine from DutchBat, that were responsible
24 for other areas and that had seen from their observation posts or patrols
25 or from Muslim commanders in that area that they would leave the enclave
1 and enter the Serb area and then burn down villages.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to talk with the Serb soldiers on the
6 other side of the dividing line, and were they friendly and open in their
7 discussions with you?
8 A. Next to my other OP, Romeo, there was a bunker, a Serb bunker,
9 just outside the enclave border, and we had discussions, sometimes were
10 friendly, sometimes less friendly, but we had open communications with
11 them, yes.
12 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something slightly different in relation
13 to demilitarisation.
14 MR. IVETIC: And to do so, I'd like to call up a document,
15 65 ter number 1D900 in e-court. And, first of all, if we can have the
16 first page of the document.
17 Q. And, I don't know, sir, if you'd like to have it in Dutch or in
18 English, but I'd like to see if you can recognise this document before we
19 go into its contents. So perhaps the original Dutch, first page?
20 A. English or Dutch is fine by me.
21 Q. Okay. That's fine then.
22 A. I think this is the -- the first page of my debriefing, which
23 took part in the Netherlands.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. And would that be the debriefing with the Dutch
25 Royal Army in September of 1995?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. IVETIC: And now I would like to have page 8 in English. And
4 it is page 7 in the B/C/S, and if we need it, it's page 8 in the Dutch.
5 Q. And it is the first full paragraph at the top of the page in
6 English, and, sir, if would you follow along with me, I have some
7 questions relating to this debriefing document. And it begins as
9 "After OP E was taken, the Muslims improved many of their
10 positions. They also dug many more trenches. More foxholes were also
11 added. During their patrols, the Muslim would say not allow them into
12 Zanik anymore. It was unclear why. The Kvarac height, 789, was filled
13 with Muslim fighters at the time.
14 "During this period, the presence of the Serbs was so threatening
15 that a blind eye was turned to the Muslims' arms.
16 "In his sector, no weapons were taken from Muslims at this time.
17 It was indicated by the battalion that they should turn a blind eye to
18 this under the guise of the right to self-defence. This went on while
19 many Muslims were walking around with weapons. During his meetings with
20 the UN, Nasir always had a pistol with him. The Muslims generally kept
21 these weapons out of sight when they were in the vicinity of the OPs.
22 The UN personnel had tried to disarm the Muslims from the start.
23 However, this was not often successful because the Muslims always ran
25 And, first, the formalities, sir, can you confirm if what is
1 stated here and what I have read into the record is truthful and accurate
2 as to the matters that are contained therein, such that you would testify
3 the same if asked to repeat it?
4 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
5 Q. And now I'd like to ask you a bit more about this.
6 Here it is recorded, and the word that is used in the English is
7 that it was "indicated" by the battalion. Who within the Dutch battalion
8 communicated to you this position that your personnel should turn a blind
9 eye to the Bosnian Muslim weapons?
10 A. I remember at the time I was at OP Quebec, and all the
11 communications and directives then at that time came through my company
12 commander, Captain Mathijssen.
13 Q. And you have used the term "communications and directives." Did
14 you consider this communication to turn a blind eye to the Bosnian Muslim
15 weapons to be a directive from your superior officers within the
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Were you also directed or instructed by anyone in the battalion,
19 any superior officer, to keep quiet about such a directive?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. IVETIC: Now while we already have this document on the
23 screen I'd like to touch on another part which is on the same page in the
24 English and Dutch but will be on the next page in the Serbian version
25 about a related but different topic. And it is in the middle of the page
1 right after the -- the sentence that said:
2 "The Muslims also had good weapons such as fairly new
4 Q. And I'd like to have you follow along, sir, and it begins as
6 "The Serbs told stories about American air-drops and UN
7 helicopters with supplies. He had seen lights in the dark, which could
8 have come from a helicopter. After this, the battalion had asked for the
9 AWACS to make a pass, but these turned out to be 'coincidently not
10 available.' This incident was concurrent with the info from the Serbs
11 that there had been American air-drops. Patrols also later found the
12 remains of American emergency rations and tin cans, et cetera."
13 First of all, sir, I have to ask you, if you would be the "he" in
14 this selection who saw lights in the dark, which could have come from a
16 A. The "he" refers to me, yes.
17 Q. And then I have to ask you if the information that I have just
18 read out from this debriefing report is truthful and accurate, such that
19 you would testify today if asked the same questions?
20 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
21 Q. And could you explain for us in some detail what happened with
22 the AWACS? And perhaps in your answer could you explain for everyone
23 what an AWACS is.
24 A. An AWACS aeroplane is, to describe it easily, sort of a radar
25 equipment that when it flies over a certain area, it then can detect any
1 activity in the air. Other planes or helicopters that are active and
2 flying there. So that's why we also requested, we had heard that -- that
3 sometimes there was an AWACS plane available to us. And, at that time,
4 we had requested, because in the days before these incidents, we
5 sometimes saw during the night some lights in the -- in the skies. Of
6 course, it was dark, so you could see the lights. And sometimes also
7 heard some helicopter rotor blade noise. So that made us request when we
8 heard those noises and saw those lights again to request an AWACS
9 aeroplane if it was in the neighbourhood, but that did not happen, at
10 least as I was told.
11 Q. And, sir, for the record, these AWACS radar planes that had been
12 discussing, what country or what air force was operating the AWACS planes
13 over head, as per your understanding?
14 A. I'm not really sure which country had those planes at that time.
15 I can't recall that.
16 Q. Do you at least recall that they would have been a NATO member
17 nation or was it -- or was there some other air alliance flying over the
18 territory? Again, if you know. If you don't, that's --
19 A. No. Can't recall.
20 Q. Did you ever author any report on this incident apart from --
21 JUDGE ORIE: One seconds. Could you also please slow down also
22 for the transcription.
23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honour.
24 Q. Did you yourself author any report on this incident apart from
25 mentioning it in, I believe, all the debriefings that you had following
1 your deployment?
2 A. Maybe only the reports in the mission area. But I don't know if
3 that was done on paper or just through radio.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. And do you have any recollection -- first of
5 all, we've been -- we've been talking about the one incident where an
6 AWACS plane was requested and you were told it was not available, but I
7 get from your discussion that perhaps the visual and audio clues to the
8 existence of helicopters flying in occurred on several occasions, am I
9 correct, or is it just one occasion?
10 A. There were multiple occasions. I can't recollect how many in
12 Q. That's fair enough. Now, these emergency rations that you report
13 that patrols found, would those patrols have been -- strike that.
14 Would those rations have been the types of things that normally
15 could be seen via humanitarian aid or were they of a military nature?
16 A. They were of a military nature.
17 Q. Knowing the situation in Srebrenica during the summer of 1995, do
18 you believe that such emergency rations of a military nature could have
19 come by any other means apart from being brought in from the outside in
20 some form?
21 A. I think they must have been brought in.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, one more thing from this document on this
23 page before I move on. And it is the second-to-last paragraph from the
24 bottom in the English version. And, again, I will read it for you and
25 then ask you some questions. It reads as follows:
1 "There were also two members of the British SAS, Jim and Dave,
2 inside the enclave, which the battalion had attached to 108. He did not
3 know what the orders of these SAS members inside the enclave were. He
4 had heard from Lieutenant Caris that these SAS men served as liaison
5 officers of sorts for General Smith and were in direct contact with him.
6 DutchBat viewed them rather as busybodies inside the unit."
7 Now, first of all, where it says that: "He did not know what the
8 orders of the SAS members inside the enclave were," is that, again, you,
10 A. That is me, yes.
11 Q. And in the sentence: "He had heard from Lieutenant Caris that
12 these SAS men served as liaison officers of sorts for General Smith and
13 were in direct contact with him."
14 Am I correct that the first "he" is you, that is, you heard from
15 Lieutenant Caris, and the last "him" would be General Smith?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And now with these clarifications, do you confirm that this
18 selection that I have read to you is truthful and accurate as to the
19 facts contained therein?
20 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I inquire as to what the reference
22 to 108 stands for.
23 MR. IVETIC: It's my next question.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Oh. I'm sorry. Then the next question of
25 Mr. Ivetic is what the reference to 108 stands for? Could you answer.
1 THE WITNESS: 108 was the number of the commando and
2 reconnaissance unit that was part of DutchBat.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. And, sir, just one item of clarification. I believe that in your
5 answer you did not add -- this was a commando unit of the Royal Dutch
6 Army; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Did 108 have the same mission as the remainder of the Dutch
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. And did 108 report according to the same chain of command as the
12 Dutch battalion?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. What was the numeric strength of that 108 Dutch commando unit?
15 A. It was one platoon, but I don't recall the exact strength.
16 Q. Do you know, sir, if that 108 unit was acknowledged to the
17 parties, that is, to the Serb and the Muslim side, as being present in
18 Srebrenica or was its existence in any way obstrucated [sic] or
20 A. There was no concealed presence, and they acted as a special
21 reconnaissance unit within the DutchBat, within DutchBat. So under the
22 same set of rules and directives.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. Could you
24 find a suitable moment within the next couple of minutes.
25 MR. IVETIC: Sure. How about one more question before we go to
1 the break.
2 Q. Could you tell us what kind of assignments, if you know, did unit
3 108 perform whilst in the Srebrenica enclave?
4 A. They -- they also did patrols and special reconnaissance. But I
5 don't have any information about the details of their assignments.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I guess if we are at the time for the
8 a break, we can have a break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'd first invite the witness to follow the
10 usher. And we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, you're on your feet. I take it not to
13 take the break.
14 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. Could I raise a brief matter in
15 private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 I will briefly read a short decision. The Chamber will deliver
3 its decision on the Prosecution's urgent motion for testimony of
4 Witness RM284 to be heard via video-conference link, a motion which was
5 filed on the 5th of April of this year.
6 Given the proposed date of testimony and the urgent nature of the
7 motion, the Chamber exceptionally delivers its decision orally with
8 written reasons to follow.
9 After having considered the submissions of the parties, the
10 Chamber finds that allowing the witness to testify via video-conference
11 link is consistent with the interests of justice, and, therefore, the
12 Chamber grants the motion.
13 This concludes the Chamber's decision. Written reasons will
14 follow in due course.
15 We take a break and resume at quarter past 12.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready, you may proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC: I am, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a few more questions about this unit
24 Did unit 108 operate pursuant to blue orders or green orders, and
25 in your answer, if you could please explain for persons who may not be
1 familiar, what is the difference between a so-called blue order and a
2 so-called green order?
3 A. The first question, unit 108 also operated under the blue orders.
4 So the normal activities of DutchBat. They were part of -- part of
5 DutchBat. No question about that.
6 The so-called green orders were more military-type activities,
7 which I was confronted with on the evening of the 9th, where I, with two
8 APCs during the night went under the cover the darkness, although we were
9 with white UN APCs, we tried to cover our activities, so in a more green
10 or military type of way, to go over to the south of the enclave to start
11 working at the blocking positions.
12 Regarding 108, they followed the activities of DutchBat.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at 1D900 again. And this time if
15 we can have page 11 in the English and page 10 of the B/C/S. And if
16 anyone is following, it's also page 11 in the Dutch I have confirmed.
17 Q. And I think that this selection is in relation to the time-period
18 that you describe between the 9th and 10th of July, at the blocking
19 position, but I'll wait to present it to you and get your response.
20 It is the last full paragraph, or the beginning of the last full
21 paragraph on the page in the English and reads as follows:
22 "The forward air controllers came running back and jumped into
23 the waiting YPR and quickly attached themselves to the back of the
24 convoy. He waited a moment in his YPR and then withdrew step by step."
25 Now, first of all, sir, the "he" in this selection, would that
1 again be a reference to yourself?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And with that additional information, sir, can you confirm that
4 the facts as recited here in this selection are truthful and accurate, to
5 the best of your recollection?
6 A. They're truthful and accurate, yes.
7 Q. And, first of all, YPR, do you understand that to be an acronym,
8 perhaps transliterated from the original Dutch, to be the armoured
9 personnel carriers that you had mentioned, the APCs?
10 A. Yeah. The YPR is the Dutch term for the type of APC we used
12 Q. And these persons that you have identified as the forward air
13 controllers, first of all, who were they? Were they in fact persons from
14 unit 108?
15 A. Yes, they were part of 108, combined with the British SAS
17 Q. And am I accurate that incident occurred during the time-period
18 that you're talking about, between the 9th and 10th of July, when you
19 withdrew your original position to establish at the blocking point which
20 was -- I believe point 02 is the designation?
21 A. If I'm correct it was the 11th of July, and I was withdrawing
22 from the original location of my blocking position, south of the town
23 towards the compound of the Bravo Company which was in Srebrenica town,
24 and just before I entered from the southern area to the compound in
25 Srebrenica, the forward air controllers came back from their mission.
1 Q. Now, sir, you say that the forward air controllers came back from
2 their mission. Was it your understanding that the mission that they had
3 just been performing was acting as spotters calling down NATO close air
4 support air strikes against Serb targets?
5 A. Yes, we knew that. Of course, we already had asked for air
6 support, and this was the only incident we -- we actually got close air
7 support. And forward air controlling, means, in another word spotting
8 for the plane that provided us with close air support. And I, of course,
9 could see the effect because also the anti-aircraft guns of the Serbs
10 were shooting at the planes that provided the close air support.
11 Q. And now let me ask you in relation to what we talked about
12 earlier, would these activities of the forward air controllers calling
13 down the military air strikes against Serb positions would those be
14 qualified as green orders, that is, military orders, or blue orders,
15 peacekeeping orders?
16 A. Even as part of the blue orders, we were -- we had the
17 possibility to call in air support. But, in fact, from the evening of
18 the 9th on, basically every order that was given to DutchBat personnel
19 was a green order, more or less of a green character, because we had to
20 do those orders and do those missions with white APCs, with blue helmets,
21 and so basically a real green execution of those orders was not possible.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think this witness has explained that
23 he makes a distinction between air strikes and close air support. In his
24 answers I hear always close air support. In your questions you continue
25 to talk about air strikes. That might create confusion at a later stage.
1 So would you please -- may I invite you to avoid that confusion.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
3 Q. And perhaps so that we are clear, could you, sir, tell us what is
4 your understanding of the distinction between air strikes and close air
5 support, the term that you have used?
6 A. The reason why I always speak about close air support is because
7 that was part of our mandate, and close air support is, in fact,
8 pin-pointed support that you get from -- from an aeroplane to really at
9 one location try to -- to help the troops on the ground.
10 Air strikes, as the Judge mentioned, has a different character,
11 is more massive and not pin-pointed to one location or co-ordination.
12 Q. Thank you for that clarification, sir.
13 I would like to now again turn to your Rule 92 ter testimony,
14 which is Exhibit P1154.
15 MR. IVETIC: And I would like to turn to the -- I believe it's
16 the eighth page of the same, which is transcript page -- page 2261.
17 Actually, I think it's the ninth page in the -- 2261. That's the page.
18 6-1. Back -- back to the page we had. I apologise.
19 Q. And if I can direct your attention, sir, to lines 13 through 16
20 of this document, here, you are talking about and describing that the
21 observation posts tried to trade with the local population to be in
22 better shape diet-wise with food. Did you have occasion to hear about or
23 eye-witness the operation of a black market on the part of the armed BiH
24 forces or the Armija BiH forces in the enclave selling humanitarian aid
25 that had been delivered to the enclave?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. If we could, we can see what -- what we are
3 using as the 92 ter statement where we used adjudicated facts to delete
4 the record. If it would be possible that we could use the actual full
5 record so when the witness is reading it, he will have a chance because
6 it -- right to the point that he gets, we have an adjudicated fact.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to put to the witness the answers he
8 gave, then, of course, it's not of great help, Mr. Ivetic, that he reads
9 adjudicated fact number so-and-so.
10 So, therefore, if there's any way to produce the original version
11 of the transcript, that certainly would help.
12 Do you have it available for yourself?
13 MR. IVETIC: Not in e-court, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you could --
15 MR. IVETIC: But I do believe my question goes beyond what is
16 here. I was just using this as a starting point. I mean, I'm asking
17 about the black market. He is not talking about that here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's not -- Mr. McCloskey, of course, I
19 could check immediately now all the adjudicated facts.
20 Let's proceed. If Mr. Ivetic asks his question if at any point
21 in time you consider it necessary for the witness to be informed about
22 what is now not visible in this transcript, please get on your feet
24 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to hear about or eye-witness the
2 operation of a black market on the part of the Armija BiH forces in the
3 enclave selling humanitarian aid that had been delivered to the enclave?
4 A. I heard about -- when I was in the enclave, I heard about certain
5 elements, and I don't know if they were part of BiH forces. Certain
6 elements using and selling humanitarian aid elements to -- to refugees.
7 You can think about coffee and sugar that was brought into the -- to the
9 So I -- I heard about it, and I've never been there, as far as I
11 Q. Did you have knowledge or eye-witness incidents where Armija BiH
12 members in the enclave offered DutchBat personnel the opportunity to
13 participate in such illicit activities such as black marketeering?
14 A. I've heard stories about that. I've never eye-witnessed it or
15 been a part of that, no.
16 Q. And did you have occasion to see or hear about the Armija BiH
17 forces in Srebrenica attempting to offer prostitution to the members of
18 the DutchBat battalion at the observation posts?
19 A. At the same time I also heard about those stories. And just a
20 clarification to both questions. For me, it was not clear that BiH
21 forces were behind those -- those attempts.
22 Q. If I can ask for clarification. With the caveat that you don't
23 know whether they were BiH forces, were the -- were the, let's say,
24 individuals or parties that were making such offers situated from within
25 the enclave itself?
1 A. Yes, I think that was true, yeah.
2 Q. Okay. And did you have occasion to witness or hear about the
3 persons within the Srebrenica enclave engaging in internal fighting and
4 assassinations to settle scores relating to the control of the black
6 A. I haven't heard about that. That -- I've heard stories about
7 settling scores amongst themselves but not what the topics were that they
8 were struggling about.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I want to step away from this black market
10 scenario and talk to something a little bit closer to home.
11 Within a -- and ... and if any of this needs to be, you believe,
12 in private session, please let me know. But within a few weeks of your
13 deployment to Srebrenica, was there an unsettling experience that you
14 encountered relative to persons back in the Netherlands? And, again, if
15 you feel that we need to go into private session, I will be more than
16 happy to oblige the request.
17 A. That will not be necessary, no.
18 Q. Okay. And you recall the incident I'm talking about where your
19 home address in the Netherlands received some letter from a brother of
20 one of the Muslim commanders in Srebrenica?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to 1D900, debriefing report that
23 we've been dealing with. And I think it's page 2 of both of the English
24 and the Dutch, and page 3 of the B/C/S.
25 Q. I think that is the most succinct summary of the incident that
1 I'd like to ask you about.
2 MR. IVETIC: And, again, it's page 2 in the Dutch and the
3 English. There we go.
4 Q. And it is the last paragraph on the page, sir, and if you would
5 follow along:
6 "In February, his girlfriend had received a letter from a
7 Yugoslav who lived in Amsterdam. This turned out to be the brother of
8 Ibro Smajic. A letter was included with the words, 'Your boyfriend knows
9 about it and the money is on the way,' accompanied by a letter in
10 Serbo-Croat. He had informed OWI? Rave of this. Later an envelope did
11 arrive containing 800 German marks. He had no idea how the Yugoslavs had
12 found out his address. Rave believed that the OP C of the 12th Sergeant
13 1st Class Hagenbeek may have done this because he was often in contact
14 with Ibro Smajic. When he left, Hagenbeek had given Ibro Smajic sports
15 shoes and a jogging outfit. He knew that someone else had also
16 experienced something similar."
17 First of all, sir, does this passage truthfully and accurately
18 depict the facts pertaining to this incident that we've been talking
20 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
21 Q. And the individual identified as Rave that had the question marks
22 into it who you told about this incident and who suspected one of your
23 colleagues may have assisted the Bosnian Muslim commander to contact
24 persons back in the Netherlands, who was this individual named Rave or
1 A. That's -- OWI stands for his rank, is an abbreviation for the
2 Dutch rank opperwachtmeester. And the name is Bert Rave, and I think you
3 know him because he was the former witness.
4 Q. Thank you. And I presume although the letter said your brother
5 [sic] knows about it, I presume you did not know, in fact, anything about
6 why this letter or the money had been sent; is that accurate?
7 A. That's accurate. I did not know how they found out my address,
8 and I did not know about money or some -- something else that was --
9 there were some gestures in it and also a letter in Serbo-Croat which we
10 had translated. But I knew nothing of the -- of the contents.
11 Q. Okay. And in this selection the last sentence says:
12 "He knew that someone else had also experienced something
14 Relating to, I guess, a colleague giving information to the
15 Bosnian Muslims that was of a sensitive personal nature. Is the "he"
16 that knew that others had experienced this talking about you or about
17 Mr. Rave?
18 A. No. The "he" refers to me. As I read it now, I have no
19 recollection of another person that had experienced something similar.
20 Q. Fair enough. And now, I'd like to ask you about some related
21 topics and I think the most efficient way is to present to you a list of
22 your responses to questions from the Popovic case.
23 MR. IVETIC: So in e-court I would ask for 65 ter number 1D898 to
24 be brought up and ask for page 6 of the same.
25 Q. And we will begin at line 2 from the top and, please, if you can,
1 follow along, sir, and I will have questions at the end:
2 "Q. And was there a suspicion that internal mail was being
3 interfered with by the local population?
4 "A. Yeah, there were more suspicions of our information or
5 personal information was also known to local Muslim military commanders.
6 "Q. And I think also there was a case of the main switchboard at
7 Bravo Company being connected to by a member of the local population?
8 "A. Yeah. That's what I heard about, yes.
9 "Q. You've been asked one or two questions about this already
10 but I'd like to develop the theme. It became apparent to you during the
11 course of your time there that there were other agencies at work in and
12 around the enclave, didn't it? By which I mean military agencies.
13 "A. Yes, that's true.
14 "Q. You were asked yesterday about the presence of the British
15 SAS in the enclave. They were not part of the mission, were they?
16 "A. I believe they had their own mission but they were put with
17 us on our compound.
18 "Q. And you didn't know whether their objectives were consistent
19 with yours or wholly inconsistent with yours.
20 "A. I have no information about that.
21 "Q. I think you also became aware that there were American
22 military personnel operating in the area of the enclave.
23 "A. I don't have any information about that as well. The only
24 thing that we noticed, that we found some American rations when we did
25 our patrols."
1 Now, first of all, sir, do you confirm that the text I've just
2 read is both truthful and accurate?
3 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
4 Q. And let's start from the back end. The incident with the
5 American rations, would that be the incident we discussed earlier where
6 we were talking about military emergency food rations?
7 A. No, it's the same incident. Speaking about the same rations.
8 Q. Yeah. And when you testified in this section that it became
9 apparent to you that were other military agencies at work in and around
10 the enclave, were you merely making reference to the supplying of the
11 force -- the Armija BiH forces or did you mean that you felt that foreign
12 agencies had a physical presence inside of the enclave?
13 A. The only thing I was referring to was the activities of the SAS
14 and not about supplying the BiH forces or other foreign agencies.
15 Q. Thank you for that clarification.
16 Now, I want to focus during the time-period the -- of the 9th,
17 10th, and, I guess, also the 11th of July, at the blocking position. And
18 you discuss this in some detail in your Rule 92 ter testimony, beginning
19 at page 11 and onwards, and at page 15 of P1154, which should correlate
20 to transcript page 2268 of that 92 ter transcript. At the top of the
21 page at line 1 there's a reference that the Muslim soldiers were gone.
22 And I think that this is a reference relating to a discussion of the
23 southern part of Srebrenica that is on the page prior.
24 And I want to ask you: According to your knowledge, where had
25 these Muslim soldiers been situated that were now gone at the time of --
1 of the events that are transpiring at this page of the transcript?
2 A. Can I please read the previous page --
3 Q. Absolutely --
4 A. -- because it puts things more in perspective, please.
5 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn back and zoom in on the second half
6 of the page.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. It's clear to me now.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Now these Muslim soldiers that you said were gone, could you help
10 orient us as to where these Muslim soldiers had been situated that were
11 now gone.
12 A. I was referring to the -- the side of the blocking positions
13 where I was then, south of the town. And we stayed there until the
14 refugees, as is stated in the previous page, the refugees had time to
15 move on northwards to where the Potocari base was -- was located. And
16 there was a period of time during the night and the morning in which
17 there still were Muslim soldiers there, taking -- also taking a position
18 near our locations of the blocking position. And when I'm referring to
19 at the top of this page I see before me now is that at one time also the
20 Muslim soldiers were retreating, were gone, and from the point I was
21 standing, I could see that they were -- also were going northwards in the
22 same direction as the refugees.
23 Q. These Muslim soldiers that you have now more specifically defined
24 for us, did you have any kind of information or estimate about their
25 numeric strength if you recall?
1 A. In the direct vicinity of my APC, there were varying in strength,
2 somewhere between sometimes 5, sometimes 10, sometimes 20, but that must
3 be the maximum amount.
4 Q. And if we can move forwards in the transcript a bit, I believe
5 it's the 18th page of your Rule 92 ter transcript that we have in e-court
6 right now. And it should be transcript page 2271 of the underlying
7 case's transcript --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, may I ask one --
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- question.
11 You said they were gone. They -- they moved in the same
13 Do you remember what -- were they carrying any arms and, if so,
14 what kind of arms? And how did they move? Did they have any vehicles?
15 THE WITNESS: They moved on foot. And the thing they had with
16 them in my direct vicinity were one heavy machine-gun placed on a tripod
17 and other hand fire-arms, pistols and -- and on one occasion also a
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Rifles?
20 THE WITNESS: Rifles, yeah.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. IVETIC: I see we now have the page that I was asking for on
23 the screen. If we could move it down so that lines 17 to 22 are visible.
24 Q. That's where I'd like to ask you. Here, sir, at lines 17 to 22
25 of the 18th page of P1154, you state that you saw some Muslim men at this
1 point going towards Susnjari, and I don't want to misquote you so let me
2 actually read in full the answer:
3 "A. In fact that was still when we were located at 0.02, we saw
4 a big group of men going towards Susnjari, or leaving from 0.02 towards
5 OP Mike, so the other direction, and we could see them leaving --
6 carrying small-calibre weapons with them. Men of all sorts of age, even
7 young boys and old men with them. Not all of them were armed, but they
8 were all men and going in that direction."
9 And --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you wanted to read in order to be
11 accurate. You read, "or" where the text says "so." Second line.
12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours.
13 Q. Now, the first question I have for you is: Is this the group of
14 Muslim soldiers that we've been discussing up until this point that were
15 gone on the morning of the 11th? Or is it a different group?
16 A. No, the group on the morning of the 11th was much smaller. This
17 was a big group. It could be that the soldiers I had seen on the morning
18 of the 11th and on the 10th and for the 9th, for what it's worth, could
19 be part of that big group that I saw on the -- on the 11th near .02
20 leaving for Susnjari. But I don't know for sure.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now focussing on this group that you've
22 identified here as a big group heading towards Susnjari, can you qualify
23 for us what does "big" mean in as specific terms as you are able to do?
24 A. I think there must have been hundreds of men and young boys and
25 older men in that group. There were really actually part of a sort of
1 column walking in the direction of Susnjari.
2 Q. And when you say they were -- they were carrying smaller --
3 smaller calibre weapons with them or that some of them were, I should
4 say, are we talking about the same types of weapons, pistols, rifles,
5 perhaps machine-guns, perhaps RPGs?
6 A. The only weapons I saw there were only small-calibre rifles, so
7 no heavy machine-guns or RPGs.
8 Q. And a clarification in the answer you just gave. Did you say
9 small-calibre weapons or small-calibre rifles?
10 A. Small-calibre weapons, meaning pistols and rifles.
11 Q. Thank you. Now this group, this large group, am I correct that
12 at some point in time they kept going in a certain direction and coming
13 back repeated times? Is this the group that did that?
14 A. That is not what I saw.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I saw them leaving from .02 in a western direction and never saw
17 them coming back.
18 Q. And if we could turn to the next page of your Rule 92 ter
19 testimony. That would be the 19th page in e-court. And if we could
20 focus on lines 16 through 24.
21 And here, sir, you are talking about -- at the morning getting
22 word, basically a message that the Serb forces had taken over the enclave
23 and that your assignment was to put away your weapons and basically to
24 only give humanitarian aid thereafter?
25 And the question I have for you, first of all, is if you can tell
1 us ... can you tell us prior to this point, had your orders been
2 primarily of a green nature, that is to say, a military nature?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get a date? It's not clear from the
5 record what date we're talking about.
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Sir, do you recall what date you received this? Would it have
8 been the 11th or the 12th of July?
9 A. I think that was the 12th of July, the first day the transports
11 Q. Okay. And would you agree that the orders you had been receiving
12 prior to this order from your superiors had been of a -- had been tending
13 towards a green designation, whereas this order was of a purely blue
15 A. From the evening on the 9th, I was assigned with, as we call it,
16 the green order, to take up the blocking position and try to stop or at
17 least try to prevent the -- the movement of the Serb forces, the
18 advancement of the Serb forces northwards so that the refugees had time
19 to move up to the Potocari area. And that green order lasted until this
20 order where we should put away our weapons, but that actually went
21 further than the blue assignment we had from the beginning of the
22 mission. Because, as part of the blue assignment, the normal mission
23 which DutchBat had also contained rules of engagement, the possibility to
24 ask for close air support, so that was a larger assignment that we had
25 from that moment on. From that moment on, the only thing we could do was
1 provide humanitarian aid which was smaller than the mission we had
3 Q. In relation to the orders that were of a mixed green and blue
4 variety prior, did you at any time receive orders to co-ordinate with the
5 Bosnian Muslim soldiers your actions, shooting at the Bosnian Serb forces
6 that were advancing?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, you said:
8 "In relation to the orders that were of a mixed green and blue
9 variety prior ..."
10 Now, the witness may correct me, I understood that the witness
11 considered the orders before the 9th, which included the broader mission,
12 that would include -- rules of engagement, possibility to ask for
13 close-air support, you consider those still blue orders.
14 So if I understood that well, then your mixed green/blue orders
15 is a bit confusing, Mr. Ivetic, unless you point at which orders you are
16 exactly referring to.
17 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, at transcript page 63, number 4,
18 the witness started off his answer by saying:
19 "From the evening on the 9th, I was assigned with, as we call it,
20 the green order," so the orders are both green and blue in that
21 time-period. I'm asking in that time-period are any of them --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's make a distinction between mission and
24 I did understand that an order was issued on the 9th, which
25 tended to not openly operate and therefore behave more in a military way.
1 That order you called a green order, I did understand that the orders you
2 received before that date were blue orders, unless I have misunderstood
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, you're correct. In my mind,
5 there was no mixing of orders until the 9th. From the 6th of January
6 until the 9th of July, we were part of a blue mission with blue
7 activities in it. From the 9th of July, the evening of the 9th, my
8 activities were more green, more military, more trying to be covert, and,
9 of course, also with combat activities, firing and being fired upon.
10 So and that lasted until the -- the morning of the 12th.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Under those -- in this understanding of the
12 testimony, Mr. Ivetic, it's a bit unclear to what you refer as the mixed
13 blue/green orders and let's make a distinction between orders and
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will make it very clear.
17 Q. The orders that you received between the 9th and the 12th of
18 July, did any of those orders include co-ordinating your combat actions
19 against the Serb forces with the Bosnian Muslim forces?
20 A. I don't recall if I received orders, but looking at my own
21 blocking position and the activities of Muslim forces there, I
22 co-ordinated with them as well as we could to at least not shoot each
23 other from that side on. This -- so I don't know if I received any
24 orders through the chain of command but I did that on site, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to fast-forward a bit and focus on the
1 time-period when you arrived at the UN compound in Potocari.
2 THE WITNESS: May I -- Your Honour, may I elaborate a little bit
3 on the situation there just to show how difficult the situation was.
4 Because at one period of time, we tried to co-ordinate with the soldiers
5 that were there, the Muslim soldiers that were there, but with the
6 changing -- I already spoke about the changing in numbers and the
7 changing of persons. So a few hours later, I found myself in a position
8 where a Muslim soldier had taken a position with a rocket-launcher in
9 front of my APC and they told me that that was because the Muslim forces
10 wanted to prevent us from leaving that location. So it was very
11 difficult to co-ordinate with the Muslim forces that were present there
12 because they were constantly changing.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. And during that time-period, sir, when the RPG was at your APC,
15 and I can't remember if it was one or two RPGs, but at that time were you
16 also threatened by the Bosnian Muslim forces that they would fire upon
17 you if, in fact, there were not -- more close air support or strikes
18 against the Bosnian Muslim forces? Was that communicated to you?
19 A. I don't recall that was any relation to the close air support.
20 It was just, as I remember, our taking up the blocking position and
21 possibly leaving the blocking position. And it clarifies also maybe the
22 statement made before that when the Muslim soldiers left that location, I
23 was free to operate and take up another position to -- a new blocking
24 position at another location.
25 Q. Thank you for clarifying that, sir.
1 Now, I'd like to again return to the time-period when you arrived
2 at the UN compound. And, first of all --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I ask one question.
4 Do I understand your answer well that when the Muslim forces were
5 still there and when they were using an RPG against you, that you did not
6 feel free to move your position as you wished to do, and only be free to
7 do that after they had left?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, sir, if we could focus on the time-period when you arrived
13 at the UN compound at Potocari. And I'd like to first direct you to the
14 12th of July. Am I correct that at some point in time, the Serb army
15 fighters left and were replaced by Serb police personnel?
16 A. First of all, I would like to say that I did not arrive at the UN
17 compound. That was later that evening. But I was near the vicinity
18 between the compound and .02, so south of the -- of the compound. So not
19 at the UN compound.
20 But at one point at time, Serb police personnel, as they
21 identified themselves, also came to that location, yes. I don't know if
22 they were replaced, but at one point in time Serb police personnel also
23 entered the location that I was.
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. IVETIC: And I'd like to now turn to 1D897 which is again an
1 expansion of the Popovic transcript. And page 30 of the same in e-court,
2 which should correlate to transcript page 2341 of that trial's transcript
4 And if we can focus on the second half of the page, beginning
5 with line 14 onwards.
6 Q. And, sir, I'd like to again use the same procedure of presenting
7 this to you and then asking you for some follow-up or clarification if it
8 is accurate, first.
9 Beginning at 14:
10 "When you continued with your testimony yesterday, and this is on
11 page 53 of the transcript, lines 9 to 12, you said that you were in
12 contact with Major Franken and that you heard from him that he also was
13 aware of the fact that the refugees would be transported and that's when
14 it practically became clear to you that this would actually happen. Is
15 that correct?
16 "A. Yes. In my contacts with Major Franken, he confirmed that
17 he had also heard, in talks, that this was the case and that the refugees
18 were supposed to be transported out of the enclave.
19 "Q. So Major Franken already knew this when you called him. Is
20 this correct?
21 "A. Yes. This is correct. Basically he was surprised that it
22 was already happening.
23 "Q. So from this, from your reply, can we conclude that the
24 agreement on the evacuation of the refugees was achieved at a much higher
25 level than your level and the level of Captain Mane, who were actually
1 there at the actual location?
2 "A. I don't know if there was any agreement of the sort. What
3 was clear that not only on my level but also on a higher level, there
4 were talks about the evacuation of the refugees."
5 And now, sir, can you confirm if you stand by the -- this
6 selection of your testimony as being truthful and accurate as to the
7 facts contained therein.
8 A. They're truthful and accurate, yes.
9 Q. And in relation to any talks or meetings at a higher level, did
10 you have any actual knowledge that you came to, perhaps at this time or
11 later, or would you have to defer to others on that -- on that topic?
12 A. No, I did not have that at that time, no.
13 Q. Okay. Then I will limit my questions to what you knew or heard.
14 And first of all, did any of your superiors, including
15 Major Franken, ever tell you that the evacuations of the population out
16 of the enclave was something that was considered a bad thing and that
17 should -- that such acts should be prevented?
18 A. I cannot recall that I heard every -- anything from Major Franken
19 about this, no.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 69 of this same
22 transcript in e-court. That ought to be page 2380 of the underlying
24 Q. And if we could just look at lines 18 through 19 -- 18 through
25 25, I apologise, and I will ask you as follows. The quoted part begins:
1 "Q. Is it right to say that the quick evacuation of the people
2 from Potocari was the only solution for the population?
3 "A. At that time, when all the refugees were gathered at the
4 factory sites, from that moment on, there was no other solution there
5 than to evacuate them because, like I said before, there were -- there
6 was a big possibility that epidemics would break out, people had no food,
7 no water, and the temperature was very high. So from that moment on,
8 there was no other solution, that's correct."
9 Now, first of all, sir, do you stand by this portion of your
10 prior testimony as being truthful and accurate, as to this particular
12 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
13 Q. And in addition, sir, is it a fact or is it accurate that
14 refugees that had gathered there at Potocari, that, in fact, many of them
15 expressed a desire and wished to leave the enclave for whatever reason?
16 A. Yes. At that point it was also clear for them, having no home,
17 no bed, no food, no water, that that was not the place to stay in now.
18 Q. Am I correct, sir, that the DutchBat had to form a human chain
19 with their own personnel and later used two APCs to try and channel the
20 crowds of people to try and keep them from stampeding and trampling each
21 other trying to get onto the buses to get out of Srebrenica?
22 A. At first, we formed a human chain across the road; that's
23 correct. Also to try to calm the refugees. They were not only
24 stampeding but also from -- from the heat, losing consciousness, falling
25 down on the floor, and then there was the threat of trampling each other
1 because of the chaotic situation. And later on, on the second day, we
2 used four APCs, not two, to make some sort of a V-shaped form in which it
3 was easier for us to guide the massive amount of refugees.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if somewhere in the next two minutes you
5 could find a moment for a break --
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- then you're invited to tell me.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I think after this next question we can
9 have the break.
10 Q. Sir, on the second morning of the evacuation, that time-period
11 when the Serbs had not yet arrived, and in the absence of the Serb
12 personnel, would you say that the Bosnian Muslim refugees also exhibited
13 eagerness and desire to leave Srebrenica and were not being forced onto
14 the buses at that time?
15 A. Yes, they were eager to leave and I think also because at the
16 time the Serb forces were not there, only the UN forces. I took the
17 decision to already start the transports. And in my mind, I think also
18 the refugees saw also the opportunity to keep their families together and
19 board the buses and the trucks in a normal way without being pushed or
20 kicked or brutalised in any way.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'm at --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break.
24 You may follow the usher, Mr. Van Duijn.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We do have another witness
3 available. Right now I have no re-direct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you still need?
5 After the break, there's another 40 minutes left.
6 MR. IVETIC: I -- I will either take the whole time or maybe even
7 another ten, 15 minutes beyond that time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could make an effort to see whether we
9 could -- can conclude the evidence of that witness today, but the next
10 witness doesn't have to remain stand by.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes to
14 --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you would need, well, let's say, five
19 or ten minutes more, we might even ask the indulgence of all those
20 assisting us and see whether we could finish then, but certainly then
21 before 2.30.
22 MR. IVETIC: We'll see, Your Honours. I have, I believe, three
23 short clips from the video that I'm not sure how long it will take to
24 locate and play them. The clips themselves are only one or two minutes
25 but -- or less than a minute, but I don't know how long it takes to get
1 the clips up on the monitor.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Have you given the numbers already?
3 MR. IVETIC: I have.
4 MR. GROOME: We would be happy to assist, if possible.
5 Mr. McCloskey is ...
6 MR. GROOME: He should be here at any moment, Your Honour, but we
7 can proceed.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Now I'd like to talk about the separations and -- and -- and
12 matters that you've testified about in relation to the evacuations. And
13 I'd like to first turn to P1154 and page 34 of the same, which again is
14 your Rule 92 ter testimony.
15 MR. IVETIC: And this should correlate to page 2387 of that
16 transcript and I would ask for lines 6 to 13 to be focussed on.
17 Q. And here, sir, you are talking about the explanation that Mane
18 gave you that they had a list of war criminals, Muslim war criminals, and
19 were going to check each of the men to see if they were on that list.
20 And am I correctly understanding from this testimony that you as a
21 military person at first did not regard the separation of men from the
22 refugees as anything other than what would be considered normal procedure
23 under a time of armed conflict when one side takes over a territory from
25 A. Yes, that's correct. Basically a normal procedure to do that.
1 Q. And now if we can turn to page -- well, we don't have to turn to
2 the pages, but at pages 51 and 50 of this transcript, you talk about
3 going over to the White House and finding some discarded passports. And
4 at today's transcript page 12 --
5 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, there's no translation? I'm told it's
7 Q. Today's temporary transcript, page 12, line 4, you talked about,
8 in addition to passports, finding also, I believe, ID documents in front
9 of the White House. I'd like to re-visit your testimony from the Popovic
10 case to see if I can refresh your recollection of what you actually found
12 MR. IVETIC: And if we can have 1D897 in e-court, and page 9 of
13 the same in e-court. That should correlate to transcript 2320 of that
14 day's transcript. And it's at the top, beginning from line 1. And I
15 quote, sir:
16 "Q. You also told us yesterday that once the refugees left
17 Potocari on the 13th of July, 1995, they left behind quite a lot of their
18 permanent items; among [sic] other things, you mentioned photographs,
19 blankets. My question is whether other than photographs, blankets, you
20 saw identification documents, identity cards, passports, driver's
21 licences, weapons permits, and similar documents.
22 "A. Passports I had seen were on the lawn of the 'White House'
23 and if I'm not mistaken, the other photographs and blankets that I talked
24 about yesterday were the personal items that were left behind in the
25 refugee area. In the refugee area, I saw blankets, photographs. I
1 didn't see specifics in the sense of passports in the refugee area. The
2 passports I had seen were on the lawn of the White House.
3 "Judge Agius: And identity cards and driver's licences, weapons
5 "The witness: No. I have not seen that, Your Honour.
6 "Judge Agius: All right. Thank you."
7 Sir, does this prior testimony from the Popovic proceedings
8 refresh your recollection as to whether you found just passports in front
9 of the White House and not identification documents?
10 A. That refreshes my memory. Thinking back at what I have found --
11 what I found in the lawn of the White House, I know for sure that there
12 were passports there, and if I'm not mistaken, there were also other form
13 of identity cards also in the -- in the lawn of the White House. But you
14 must know that they were in Serbo-Croatian so they gave me the impression
15 that there were also some sort of identity documents.
16 Q. And so are you now modifying the testimony that you gave in the
17 Popovic case or are you confirming it? Because I'm now confused.
18 A. I'm confirming the testimony from the Popovic case, just making
19 clear that where Judge Agius asked me about identity cards, drivers's
20 licence and weapons permits, I think he was referring to the refugee
21 area. And as I stated before, I hadn't seen any identity documents or
22 other items than blankets or photographs in the refugee area.
23 Q. With regard to the White House, were the passports that you found
24 all in one place or scattered about?
25 A. They were in an area -- basically the lawn of the White House
1 which was 10 metres long and 4 or 5 metres wide and they were scattered
2 on that location.
3 Q. Am I correct that you found a total of 20 to 25 passports which
4 you collected and initially put in the pocket of your shorts?
5 A. The estimate sounds more or less correct.
6 Q. Sir, did these appear to be the old Socialist Yugoslav passports
7 or the new BiH passports? Or do you not know?
8 A. I do not know that, no.
9 Q. Do you know if the passports at that time were valid anymore?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Am I correct that you cannot rule out the possibility that the
12 Muslim men themselves discarded the passports?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know why they left their passports there.
14 Q. Am I correct that in addition to the passports you found outside
15 the White House, that you saw other refugees had discarded passports and
16 other personal belongings at the bus station?
17 A. I don't think that at the bus station or the refugee area, as --
18 as we stated before, I haven't seen any passports there. Only other
19 personal items, like blankets or photographs.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, just for the Chamber better to
21 understand your line of questioning, were you exploring the possibility
22 that because the passports were not valid anymore, that those who may
23 have left them on the lawn became aware of that and, for that reason,
24 thought, They're not valid so therefore we --
25 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: What, then, is it what you want to --
2 MR. LUKIC: The witness has identified what, I believe, Mane is
3 said to have said to him about them not needing them anymore and that
4 could be an alternative meaning of what those words mean. If a passport
5 is no longer valid, one does not have a need for it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That is the reason for those questions --
7 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... line of questioning --
9 JUDGE ORIE: That is clear to the Chamber.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. And do you recall, sir, that the original statement that you gave
13 to the Office of the Prosecutor dated the 25th of October, 1995, had a
14 reference in there that you had seen passports at the bus station which
15 you then were presented with at the Popovic trial and which you stated
16 you did not know how that had gotten into your ICTY statement? Do you
17 recall that?
18 A. No, I have no recollection of that, no.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. IVETIC: For purposes of the record, since I did mention it,
21 that's at page 2353 of the Popovic transcript. But in essence the
22 witness says what he said today, that he does not remember seeing the
23 passports at the bus station.
24 Now --
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's not evidence so the Chamber has no access to
1 it. But if there's agreement on whether that is what the witness said,
2 then, of course, the -- it's then hereby on the record.
3 Mr. McCloskey, could you consider whether that's accurate or not.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, I will consider it. I don't recall
5 immediately, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And if I can assist, it would be lines 1
9 through 23 of that page for Mr. McCloskey.
10 Q. Now, did you have any knowledge as to the Bosnian civil system as
11 it pertained to identity cards as the primary means of identification
12 over passports?
13 A. No, I did not have any knowledge about that, no.
14 Q. And the words that you attributed to the Serb that you have
15 called Mane as to these passports, I first want to ask you: Those words
16 about the men not needing the passports anymore, were they spoken in
17 English or through the assistance of an interpreter?
18 A. They were spoken through the assistance of the interpreter, Miki
19 that was always near to Mane and his interpreter.
20 Q. And did you have the impression that Miki was not a professional
21 interpreter but rather someone with a limited English knowledge thrust
22 into that role?
23 A. I did not have the impression that Miki was a professional
24 interpreter but he could speak excellent English.
25 Q. And did Mane or anyone else on the part of the Serbs tell you not
1 to take the passports or did they force you to return the passports?
2 A. No, they did not force me to return the passports or did they
3 prevent me to take them, no.
4 Q. And ... with regard to -- with regard to your interpretation of
5 the nefarious meaning possible to Mane's words, would you agree that that
6 is reached looking back now with the benefit of hindsight and because of
7 the reports in the media of what is said to have later happened to men in
8 the Srebrenica area?
9 A. My interpretation of the words of Mane had to be seen in the
10 light of the -- the images that I already seen before I went on the
11 mission, and you have to think about concentration camps, those images
12 that were already in 1991 or 1992 on Dutch television as well. And we
13 heard, of course, also in our training of that sort of atrocities
15 So in the course of the first day of the transports and the
16 singling out of men, I had those images also in the back of my mind, and
17 that is, of course, already a dark fate that will await men that are
18 singled out. But you have to see my interpretation of the words of Mane
19 made it even a darker fate for the -- the men that were singled out when
20 he said that they would not need those passports anymore.
21 Q. And your discussion with Mane, again, related only to passports,
22 not to identity documents?
23 A. We spoke only about passports, yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: And if we can have just briefly up in e-court number
25 1D00897 and page 51 of the same, which should relate to transcript
1 page 2362.
2 Q. Here, sir, at lines 8 through 23, there's a rather lengthy
3 discussion talking about the use of an identification card in lieu of a
4 passport for identification purposes and the point that a person without
5 a passport but with an identity card would be sufficiently identifiable
6 especially under the law that was in place in Bosnia at the time. And I
7 have looked, sir, while you have been talking, and I cannot find anywhere
8 in the Popovic case where you at any point in time corrected anyone that
9 was asking you questions about identity cards to claim that you also saw
10 identity cards in front of the White House.
11 Are you perhaps mistaken now, several years later, when you are
12 raising the issue of identity cards having also been seen by you at the
13 White House?
14 A. I don't think I'm mistaken, no.
15 Q. Now I want to move to a related topic. At temporary transcript
16 page 12, line 4, today you said that the White House was crammed. I want
17 to try and establish how many men we are talking about.
18 MR. IVETIC: And do this I would like to turn to page 1D --
19 pardon me, 65 ter number 1D898, page 18 in e-court, which should be
20 transcript page 2405 [Realtime transcript read in error "2450"] of the
21 Popovic proceedings.
22 Q. And starting at line 1, sir, I will ask you to follow along with
23 me for the calculations that you performed at that time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it's 2405, isn't it, that you are
25 referring to?
1 MR. IVETIC: 2405.
2 Q. "The question I asked you to follow on from that is, when you say
3 that you saw more than 300, 350 men singled out, that is the number that
4 you saw actually taken, not the number you saw taken away before your
6 "A. No. That is the total estimation of the number of men being
7 singled out during the day.
8 "Q. Well, I'm interested about that because Madam Fauveau did
9 establish with you yesterday that the number you saw in the house on the
10 first day was between, I think you said, 15 and 50. Yes?
11 "A. Yes. I remember that, yes.
12 "Q. And the number you saw in the White House on the second day
13 was between 50 and 100, wasn't it?
14 "A. Yes. I remember that, yes.
15 "Q. So in effect, the number of men you saw placed in those two
16 houses over the course of two days was a maximum of 150.
17 "A. The men I saw at that stage resemble more or less the figure
18 of 150, but when I look at the two days, the whole days, thinking and
19 making an estimation of the men that were singled out, it resembles a
20 higher number. But I was not there at the White House the second day the
21 whole time and I don't know if there were earlier transports before my
22 arrival there."
23 First of all, sir, do you confirm and stand by this selection of
24 your prior testimony as being truthful and accurate as to its contents?
25 A. It's truthful and accurate, yes.
1 Q. Now, others that you saw being singled out may have been later
2 released by the Serbs without you knowing it. Is that another reason
3 that the number in the White House could be less than the total number
4 you saw being selected?
5 A. No, I don't think that is the reason. The reason I already
6 explained during the prior testimony is that I was not the whole time at
7 the site of the White House.
8 Q. Okay. And is it accurate that on the 13th of July, the morning
9 when you started the bus evacuations before the Serbs showed up, that
10 approximately 100 to 150 Bosnian Muslim males made it out on those
11 convoys before the Serbs arrived?
12 A. I don't know the estimations of the numbers. I know that the
13 NIOD report has made some estimations about the number of Muslim men that
14 have made it through and I know they also have found a few men and had
15 some testimonies from them to show what the situation was at the time,
16 but that could be right. I hope there were more, but ...
17 Q. Well, I'm relying upon the figure of 100 to 150 Muslim men that
18 you gave in the Popovic trial at transcript page 2318. Was that based on
19 the NIOD report or on your own knowledge? And if you want, we can have
20 that up.
21 MR. IVETIC: It's 1D897, and it's the bottom of page 7 and the
22 top of page 8.
23 Q. And at the bottom, the question starts at line 19 and your answer
24 begins at line 25, sir. And when you indicate, we can go on to the next
1 A. Okay. You can go on to it the next page, please.
2 Q. And does that refresh your recollection of the figure that I
3 mentioned, 100 or 150 Muslim men?
4 A. This refreshes my recollection of the testimony in the Popovic
5 case, and if I'm correct, the Popovic case was before the NIOD report had
6 been revealed. And I don't know what the estimation of the NIOD report
7 is based on my estimation or they made their own calculation.
8 Q. So what is your estimation based upon then? Would it be your
9 own --
10 A. My observation and estimation, yes.
11 Q. Now I want to move to a few areas I have left.
12 First you describe an incident with with a young boy almost being
13 strangled by a Serb in black uniform --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Page reference, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC: Page 81, line -- I think it's corrected now. I
16 apologise. It was probably due to my speed of speech.
17 Q. Now, I want to ask you about an incident where you say a young
18 boy was almost being strangled by a Serb in a black uniform. Do you
19 recall that as soon as you intervened with Mane to tell him what was
20 happening, that he stopped the Serb in the black uniform, told you that
21 you were right for objecting to this, and told the Serb that is he a Serb
22 soldier and should not be there and took him away from that location?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And apart from this one incident, am I correct that you
25 personally did not see any mistreatment or wrongful acts on the part of
1 the Serbs during the evacuation of refugees or the separation of men?
2 A. When it comes to mistreatment or wrongful acts, of course, there
3 were multiple days filled with mistreatments and wrongful acts. When it
4 comes to specific incidents and the separation of men, of course, I was
5 in the middle of that and had to view and be -- be a part of -- of
6 those -- those incidents.
7 So the almost strangling of the young boy is something that is an
8 incident where I was literally involved and there were multiple incidents
9 where I, of course, tried to convince Mane to let men stay with their
11 So if you conclude that there was only one incident in those --
12 in that period of time, I must say no.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we can call 1D900; page 16 in English and page 14
14 of the B/C/S. And this is again the briefing statement given to the
15 Royal Dutch Army in 1995.
16 And it's again page 16 in English, page 14 of the B/C/S. And
17 it's the second-to-last paragraph that begins "he believed" and says:
18 "He believed that it would have been impossible for the Serbs to
19 have done anything to the refugees which would not have been noticed.
20 This would have been noticed because panic at least would have broken out
21 among the Muslims. They would have also shouted and screamed. The
22 Muslims immediately panicked whenever they saw something, like when the
23 Muslim hanged himself."
24 Do you confirm that this selection is truthful and accurate as to
25 the facts contained therein?
1 A. Yes, they are accurate, and they refer to, if I'm not mistaken, a
2 question about the -- the evening and the night of the 12th, going on to
3 the 13th. And the question was that during the night or the evening, if
4 the Serbs would have come back and did something to Muslim refugees
5 without us noticing.
6 Q. If we can look two -- three paragraphs -- three paragraphs prior
7 on this same page in English, you were talking about the men at the
8 White House and the quote there says:
9 "He did not see any men mistreated there [sic]."
10 Is that a truthful and accurate account of the facts as you know
12 A. That's truthful and accurate if you see it in the light that
13 while I was there, no one was beaten or strangled or whatever. The --
14 could have happened. So while I was there and present, at the time there
15 was no physical contact between Serbs or Muslim men that were at the
16 White House.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. If we could turn to the next page of this
18 document, there is an item that says: "Treatment of civilians/refugees."
19 And I believe it's the second item from the top. And it is quoted there
20 that you said:
21 "As far as he could tell, reasonably good."
22 Do you confirm that this section from your debriefing accurately
23 and truthfully describes the Serb treatment of the refugees at Potocari
24 as being reasonably good as far as you could tell?
25 A. You have to read part of this as the whole document. In the
1 whole document, I don't know how many pages the debriefing in -- in
2 Assen, my personal debriefing took, but in all those pages, all the
3 incidents we have been talking yesterday and today are described. So
4 this is a statement which you have to read in the context of the whole
5 document. So next to the mistreatments and other things I have
6 witnessed, there is nothing else to -- to -- to note.
7 Q. I agree, sir, and that's where my confusion lays [sic]. The only
8 mistreatment that I have seen identified in your debriefings in your
9 prior testimony was in relation to the one person that almost strangled a
10 Bosnian Muslim that we just went through and everywhere else it says that
11 you did not personally eye-witness any other mistreatment. And that's
12 why I asked you if you had personally eye-witnessed any other
13 mistreatment apart from that incident.
14 I'm asking you again now, sir, if you recall that the incident
15 with the boy was the only mistreatment that you eye-witnessed?
16 A. If you look at it in a way that shelling of people, shooting at
17 them, driving them from their homes, breaking up families and forcing
18 them to move from one location to another is not a mistreatment, then I
19 think you're mistaken, because I also see that as mistreatment. But next
20 to that, next to the whole scale of the atrocities, there is this -- the
21 mistreatment I viewed myself. That's the mistreatment of the boy, yes.
22 Q. And, sir, people shooting, shelling, forces moving from one
23 location to another, are those not also factors of a war?
24 A. Those are factors of a war. Doesn't mean they are not -- that
25 they are right.
1 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the only bodies you saw were -- were
2 described as yourself as being as a result of the hostilities and having
3 nothing to do with the transportation of refugees?
4 A. That's correct. The bodies that I saw were also in other
5 locations than where the transportation took place.
6 Q. Now I'd like to move to the incident of the encounters with
7 General Mladic.
8 First of all, the first incident you described where
9 General Mladic talked about the Netherlands and about the prediction that
10 in ten years he would be assisting the Dutch to protect themselves. You
11 indicated that this was translated for you by a Serb translator. Was
12 this translator Miki, who we have identified previously?
13 A. No, it was not Miki. I believe it was the translator that was
14 always with General Mladic.
15 Q. And would that have been Colonel Jankovic?
16 A. No, it was not Colonel Jankovic.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I want to move to the other incident where your UN
18 translator that you have described had an encounter with General Mladic.
19 And, first of all, am I correct that the entirety of
20 General Mladic's words were conveyed and interpreted to you by that UN
22 A. I think that's correct, yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we're at 2.15.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm just wondering how much more time you would
1 MR. IVETIC: I don't think I can get it done in under 25 minutes.
2 So I think I'll need about 25 minutes to view the three short clips and
3 complete the short questions that I have on the encounter with
4 General Mladic and on the -- Miki, the translator, and the discussions
5 with Mane, and those are the only two topics that I have remaining.
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Van Duijn, unfortunately, it will not be able to
10 finish today, to conclude today, although we would have wished to do so,
11 as you may have understood. Nevertheless, in view of the time assessment
12 given in advance by the Defence, the Chamber considers it fair that they
13 have an opportunity to conclude your testimony tomorrow. I'm sorry for
14 you that you have to return, although for a short period of time,
15 tomorrow morning.
16 Meanwhile, I would like to instruct you again that you should not
17 speak or communicate with anyone about your testimony, and most likely
18 we'll be done in the first session tomorrow morning, so you can make your
19 plans on from -- after -- after the morning session.
20 You may follow the usher.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
24 THE WITNESS: See you tomorrow.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn for the day, when there's no matter
2 to be raised at this moment, and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the
3 26th of April, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Friday, the 26th day of April,
6 2013, at 9.30 a.m.