Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10400

 1                           Friday, 26 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Today we find ourselves again in a situation where for urgent

11     personal reasons Judge Fluegge is unable to sit, and Judge Moloto and

12     myself have decided that it's in the interest of justice to continue to

13     hear the case.  We are still confident that this will not take longer

14     than five days.  Therefore, we'll proceed.

15             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.  There are no

16     preliminaries as far as I'm aware of.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,

19     everyone.  As you recall, you asked me to consider the correctness of a

20     citation yesterday made by Mr. Ivetic, and it was -- in fact, I can

21     confirm it was a correct citation to the Popovic judgement -- or excuse

22     me, the Popovic transcript.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.

24             Mr. Ivetic, as I understood, you would finish within half an hour

25     let's say.

Page 10401

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. van Duijn.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you again that you're still bound

 7     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

 8     testimony.

 9                           WITNESS:  LEENDERT VAN DUIJN [Resumed]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination

11     and he announced, just for you to know, he will need about half an hour.

12             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:  [Continued]

15        Q.   Sir, yesterday we left off at the incident on the 12th of July

16     when there was an encounter that you described between General Mladic and

17     the Muslim interpreter for Bravo Company that had been acting as your

18     interpreter during the day, and I want to ask you prior to that time, how

19     long had you been operating in a heightened state of stress and how

20     little or how much sleep had you gotten?

21        A.   From the evening of the 9th that I went to the blocking position,

22     until then of course I was working in stressful situations, and I think

23     during those days and nights I had some cat-naps, so a few hours of sleep

24     in total, I think.

25        Q.   And now talking about this Muslim UN interpreter, do you know

Page 10402

 1     would the same or similar likely have been true for him at that point in

 2     time?

 3        A.   I don't really know.

 4        Q.   At page 42 of P1154, your Rule 92 ter statement, you describe the

 5     Muslim interpreter after the encounter, and I'd like to direct to that if

 6     I may.  I apologise, one page prior.  And at lines 12 through 15 you

 7     state the following:

 8             "He was incredibly scared, shivering, literally shivering all of

 9     his body.  And he was actually so scared that I decided to take [sic] him

10     back escorted -- let him be escorted back to the compound because he was

11     not able to be there any more."

12             Do you consider that given the circumstances and the condition

13     that the interpreter was in that the exact words of General Mladic may

14     have been somewhat haphazardly interpreted to you?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You're asking for expert opinion, more or less,

16     Mr. Ivetic.  We will ask the witness to answer the question, but just for

17     you to be aware of.

18             THE WITNESS:  I really don't know, but in the way the interpreter

19     spoke to me during the conversation, it didn't seem to me that he was in

20     a different state of mind than he was during the day-time, and during

21     that day he did all the interpreting for me.  So I had no -- no reason to

22     doubt that his interpretations were different from what he had done the

23     rest of the day.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Thank you for that.  And just for the record, you at that point

Page 10403

 1     in time did not have any ability or knowledge to speak the Serbo-Croatian

 2     language; is that accurate?

 3        A.   That's accurate.  Only a few words but no sentence or whatsoever.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You can't eat your cake and have it, Mr. Ivetic.

 5     Either you ask the witness whether he was able to assess the accuracy of

 6     the translation under the circumstance and then to say, Well, but you

 7     didn't know the language, is a bit problematic for the Chamber.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, I wasn't asking to assess the

 9     translation.  I was asking did he consider, did the witness consider the

10     circumstances to have had an effect on the translator such that he did

11     not have faith in the translation.  That's what I was asking him.  I was

12     asking this witness what he --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then he said I didn't consider the

14     translation any different or any doubts, and then you said but you don't

15     speak the language.  That's actually the gist of what you're doing.  But

16     please continue.

17             MR. IVETIC:  We'll get to how the translator was translating the

18     rest of the day, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Now, are you aware, sir, that someone that same day had shot some

20     weapon rounds at General Mladic in Srebrenica trying to kill him?

21        A.   No, I haven't heard about that, no.

22        Q.   At the time that you asked the interpreter to approach

23     General Mladic, the interpreter was dressed in civilian clothing and

24     without any UN soldiers accompanying him; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 10404

 1        Q.   Was General Mladic surrounded by his bodyguards or standing away

 2     from them?

 3        A.   I think his bodyguards were not close to him at that point.

 4        Q.   Now, I appreciate at the time you didn't think or consider it,

 5     but looking back at the situation now, do you perhaps concede that it was

 6     a risky decision sending the translator dressed in civilian clothes

 7     without any UN soldiers to talk directly to General Mladic such that he

 8     could be considered as a potential threat to the safety of General Mladic

 9     by him or by the bodyguards?

10        A.   No, looking back, I think also the physical condition and the

11     appearance of the translator I would say that looking back I would still

12     think it was very risky situation for the translator to do that.  That's

13     why he also hesitated.  And the whole situation was a risky one also for

14     myself, of course, but looking back, no, I don't think there was any

15     threat coming from the translator.

16        Q.   And did the translator ever tell you exactly what he had told

17     General Mladic when he approached him, the actual words that were

18     conveyed?

19        A.   No, I don't recall that.

20        Q.   Now, with the assistance of my colleagues on the other side, I'd

21     like to show you a short video-clip.  For the record it will be part of

22     P1147, and I believe the Prosecution should have the first clip.  It's

23     from 00:23:30 to 00:23:54.  It's a short 20-odd second clip.  And, sir,

24     as you watch this clip with me I'd like you to pay particular attention

25     to the translator who is doing the translation and also the subtitles of

Page 10405

 1     the translations so that we can see what is being said here and then I'll

 2     save my questions for afterwards, and I want to find out if this

 3     translator is the Muslim translator that we have been talking about.  So

 4     if we could please play the clip.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "He says that all -- all of the people [indiscernible]."

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Now, sir, having played the clip, were you able to identify the

 9     translator who is providing translation between Lieutenant Koster and

10     General Mladic as being the Muslim translator that we have been talking

11     up until now?

12        A.   He is not the Muslim interpreter that was interpreting for me.

13        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  And now I'd like to look at P1148, which is

14     the Srebrenica stills book.  We're moving on to another topic.

15             Just for the record, I think it was evident that the -- from

16     looking at the subtitles and the transcript of the video that that

17     particular interpreter which is not the one that we're talking about was

18     incorrectly interpreting between Lieutenant Koster and General Mladic.

19     But now I'd like to move on to stills book and we looked at page 105 in

20     the hard copy which is page 117 in e-court.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I can imagine that you want to put on

22     the record that the Defence has concern about the accuracy rather than

23     that you testified that it was not okay.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you wanted to say.

Page 10406

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, thank you for that correction.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's now clear on the record.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Sir, looking at this page of the stills book, is this a --

 6     there's yourself to the right and the gentleman with the number 2 on his

 7     chest.  Is this a picture of the person that you have referred as to the

 8     translator Miki?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   Now, do you see the identifications on the bottom of this page

11     identifying both Miki and the individual to the left as being members of

12     the police?  Was that your understanding at the time that Miki was a

13     policeman rather than an official translator?

14        A.   I think at that time they told me that he was not an official

15     translator but could speak English and he could ...

16        Q.   I apologise.  Are you done?  I thought you were going to say

17     something after "he could," or ...

18        A.   He could speak English.  That was -- yeah.

19        Q.   Now I'd like to review a part of the Popovic trial transcript

20     with you to see if it is accurately reciting something in relation to

21     this encounter.  I'd call up 1D897 and ask for page 55 in e-court, which

22     correlates to page 2366 of the Popovic transcript and if we can begin

23     with line 17.  Oops, actually -- yes, 17.  And if you could follow along,

24     sir:

25             "Q. [Interpretation] Major, I think that yesterday we froze the

Page 10407

 1     footage at this precise frame.  You recognise Mane, you recognise the

 2     interpreter Miki, and you are also in the shot.  Can you see the

 3     subtitles on this frame, where they say, 'And to check and see whether

 4     anybody wants to go.  It's their job.'

 5              "Since we cannot determine from the subtitles who is saying

 6     what, whose words they are, can we please confirm the following:  These

 7     words are directed by Captain Mane to the interpreter Miki, is that

 8     right, so that he could interpret them to you.  Is that the right

 9     interpretation of what we are seeing here?

10             "A. From what I saw in the video clipping, that is the correct

11     course of events.

12             "Q. Thank you very much.

13             "Judge Agius:  If you want to -- a couple of seconds, I think it

14     will be clear.  Because you here a voice calling Miki and then it

15     continues from there.

16              Then they play the video-tape.

17              "Judge Agius:  I think it's clear enough.

18              "Mr. Lazarevic:  Yes, I think so.

19              "Judge Agius:  Thank you.

20              "Mr. Lazarevic:

21             "Q. Mane says to Miki to tell you that you should see whether

22     there was anyone else who wished to leave.  Does this refer to the

23     refugees who were there?

24             "A. If I read the subtitles, it would refer to the refugees, but

25     if I remember correctly, this phrase was not translated to me by Miki.

Page 10408

 1             "Q. No.  Thank you.  So it's more or less what's being said.  But

 2     actually, what I'm interested in is that you did have problems with

 3     interpretation, especially when this man named Miki was interpreting?

 4             "A. I don't have a way to control if Miki was telling exactly

 5     what Mane was -- wanted to tell me because I don't speak Serbo-Croatian.

 6             "Q. Right.  So you're saying you can't be 100 per cent sure that

 7     what Miki said was perfectly exactly interpreted by -- sorry, that what

 8     Mane said was perfectly interpreted by Miki?"

 9             And the answer's on the next page:

10             "A. No, I don't have to have a way or did not have a way there to

11     control it, but I'm sure that if things would go in a different way than

12     Mane wanted, he would have objected and would have told Miki that he

13     wanted it otherwise.  But I don't have a way to control if it was the

14     exact or perfect translation that Mane wanted."

15             Now, sir, does this selection accurately and truthful comport

16     with your memory of the testimony that you gave in the Popovic trial?

17        A.   It's accurate and truthful, yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  And if I understand correctly, these words from Mane or

19     anything resembling these words were never passed along to you by Miki or

20     were incorrectly translated to you Miki.  Is that -- is that accurate?

21        A.   I do not remember that sentence, that specific sentence, and

22     especially the part where Mane says "It's their job."  I do not remember

23     that that sentence was translated to me.

24        Q.   Fair enough.  And now I'd again with the assistance of the

25     Office of the Prosecutor, I'd like to play a clip from the video-tape.

Page 10409

 1     This will be the third clip that I had announced.  That is from

 2     V-009267-1-A, from 00:05:47 to 00:06:40.  And if we can play the clip the

 3     question I would ask you to keep in mind, sir, is:  Is this the segment

 4     that you recall was the subject of this discussion in the Popovic trial.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. IVETIC:

 7        Q.   And so, sir, now having viewed the video is this the video

 8     segment that was the subject of this exchange in the Popovic trial that

 9     we've just went through?

10        A.   Yes, as I can see it it's that part, yeah.

11        Q.   And as you went with the interpreter towards the water truck,

12     Mane did not come with you; is that correct?

13        A.   I do not remember Mane as seen there, no.

14        Q.   Would you agree that now looking back at the situation and the

15     actual words that were spoken now having been translated by professional

16     translators, that there was a lot of room for misinterpretation and error

17     for English-speaking persons relying upon this translator at the site?

18        A.   And when you speak about this translator you refer to Miki?

19        Q.   Miki.

20        A.   There -- there could be some room for other interpretation by

21     Miki, yes.

22        Q.   And just to be clear, was Miki the person who interpreted the

23     words of Mane at the white house in relation to the passports?

24        A.   Yes, that's true.

25        Q.   And now I'd like to play one more clip with the help of the

Page 10410

 1     Office of the Prosecutor, and it would be the second clip that I had

 2     announced which is, for the record, part of P1147.  It is the video

 3     V-000-9266-1-A, and it begins at 00:23:54 and goes until 00:24:29.  And I

 4     want to urge to pay attention to the words being spoken by General Mladic

 5     to the refugees, and if we could play the clip then.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Now, sir, are these words uttered by General Mladic to the

 9     civilian refugees and their responses to him something that you were made

10     aware of or witnessed in Potocari; that is to say, did the translators

11     provide you with such information about how Mladic was addressing the

12     crowd of refugees?

13        A.   I have not heard about this, no.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

16             Your Honours, I have completed my cross-examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

18             Mr. McCloskey, any need for further questions?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. van Duijn, since the Bench has no further

21     questions for you either, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

22     thank you very much and often I say coming from far away, but that

23     perhaps not applies to you, but I thank you nevertheless for coming to

24     this courtroom and for having answered all the questions that were put to

25     you by the parties and by the Bench.  And even if it's a short distance I

Page 10411

 1     wish you safe return home again.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, is the Prosecution ready to call its

 6     next witness?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I believe we have the

 8     continuing cross-examination of Mr. Ruez, who should be behind me.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

10     courtroom.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Ruez.  Mr. Ruez, perhaps needless

13     to say, but of course you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've

14     given at the beginning of your testimony that you will speak the truth,

15     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The cross-examination will now be continued.

18             Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:  [Continued]

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ruez.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Let's resume, and I'll call up your exhibit in e-court, P1132.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic and the parties, the witness was provided

Page 10412

 1     with a list of names and numbers, and I do understand -- I don't know

 2     whether you want to use it, but the witness doesn't have it at his

 3     disposition at this moment, so if there's any need to use, I would say,

 4     the codes, then he should be provided with it.  Again, if there's no

 5     need --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not aware for now that I'm going to use the list.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that a copy has been provided to the

 8     witness, so if there is any need for him to refer to any of those

 9     persons, then he now has the tool he needs for that.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  We are still waiting for P1132.  And

11     we'll need page 77.

12        Q.   It's page 58 in your book if you want to use hard copy.

13        A.   It's okay.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] What we can see here is an aerial image of

15     Nova Kasaba.  The markings indicate the areas that can be seen in the

16     next image.  The date here is the 13th of July, 1995.  And we need the

17     next page, page 78 in e-court.

18             Here an indication is made of soil disturbance.  We can see that

19     it's the 27th of July, 1995, and it's another aerial image.

20             There are no survivors from these sites, no survivors of possible

21     executions; right?

22        A.   This is right.  There are no survivors.

23        Q.   Is it also correct that one cannot rule out the possibility that

24     these people or some of them were killed in combat?

25        A.   Do you want my personal opinion?

Page 10413

 1        Q.   I don't want your opinion.  I want the information that your

 2     investigation team arrived at.  Was this a possibility that could be

 3     ruled out as a result of your investigation?

 4        A.   So I will in the shortest possible explain you what the

 5     investigation tells us about this site.  One witness who was a trying to

 6     escape from this large hill and cross the asphalt road was hiding himself

 7     at the bottom of an electric pylon and had a sight in between two houses.

 8     From there he could see two armoured vehicles on the road.  He saw the

 9     first group of 30 people marched on a meadow where they were lined up.

10     Men equipped with automatic rifles stood on the APCs and shot this group.

11     This witness stayed.  A short time later a second group arrived, was

12     lined up among the bodies of the first group, and they were shot.  In

13     between, the soldiers were shouting, shooting in the air.  And then a

14     third group arrived.  The witness left the area.

15             It took us four years to find the location this witness was

16     talking about, because on this stretch of road of approximately

17     3 kilometres, there were many possible locations.  So we went from north

18     to south, and fortunately the last possibility was the south.

19             The description of the location is visible on the photograph.  At

20     the top left of the red square you have two houses.  Unfortunately, the

21     pylon is not visible.  It would be approximately located where the A of

22     "Areas" is.

23             At some point late 2000, I think, during the summer 2000, this

24     meadow, the last one we searched, was scooped with metal detectors and a

25     large number of bullets were found embedded into the ground.  There is a

Page 10414

 1     report from my colleagues who did this search in my absence because it

 2     was at the last stage of the mission and I did leave the area.

 3     Meanwhile, they were conducting this operation.

 4             So in my view, due to the proximity of the location of these

 5     graves, these graves might be the graves where the bodies of these people

 6     have been dumped into.  There is another grave a little bit more north of

 7     this location that we didn't show for the sake of this trial, which is

 8     hidden from the road by a tree -- a very thick tree-line where the

 9     exhumation report will say how many bodies have been found.  I do not

10     remember precisely.  So my assumption is that these graves contain the

11     bodies of the -- at least of this execution, not -- maybe not only this

12     one but at least of this one.

13             Then regarding the possibility that these people inside the

14     graves were battle casualties, from the photographs I took on the -- the

15     probe -- of the probe that we did on the grave that is located just at

16     the bottom left of this red box, as I have shown, the most obvious body

17     was in civilian clothes and had his hands tied with wire.  I have hard --

18     I have difficulties thinking that a man with the hands bounded with a

19     wire in his back has been killed in combat, but it's my opinion.

20             There is a full exhumation report on this that Professor Wright

21     will detail for you.

22        Q.   My question was whether you could rule out the possibility

23     that -- that among those buried this these graves were also people killed

24     in combat.  Can you rule that possibility out or not?  That's all.  And

25     then we'll move on.

Page 10415

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The question has been answered by the witness.  He

 2     says there may have been others than from those execution, and I do

 3     understand he has not excluded that those others may have been killed in

 4     combat.  Is that right, Mr. Ruez?

 5             THE WITNESS:  This is right, and Professor Wright will give more

 6     very interesting details regarding these graves.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.  I will move on.

 8             [Interpretation] We now need page 92 in e-court.  I apologise.

 9     We need page 84.  It's Konjevic Polje.  I apologise.  I can't find it

10     now.

11        Q.   But you do remember that in connection with Konjevic Polje there

12     were quite a few single graves or graves containing two or three bodies;

13     right?

14        A.   We found one containing one single body, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you add anything about graves with two or

16     three bodies, because that was part of the question.

17             THE WITNESS:  We -- we were looking for small graves in this area

18     in order to implement witness testimonies claiming that they saw people

19     surrendering and that those carrying weapons had to dig their grave and

20     were shot inside.  Purely a witness assessment.  So we probed several

21     locations in this area to find small graves, and we could find one with

22     one individual inside, and the report done of it by Professor Wright, and

23     he was the one, concludes that the hole in which this body was found was

24     hand-dug.  It's the only possible implementation that we could have of

25     these bits of stories.

Page 10416

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, so the short answer is that you did not

 2     find graves with two or three bodies in it.  Is that --

 3             THE WITNESS:  No, one, but not two or three, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  That would have been the short answer.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, but I think that even this one was worth

 7     mentioning, this individual one.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You had mentioned it already in your first answer.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  We will now deal with the Kravica warehouse.  On the

12     issue of Kravica, as well as other areas, is it correct that many of the

13     sites that you investigated were in fact within a war zone?

14        A.   Absolutely.

15        Q.   The damage to the buildings that were the warehouse at Kravica

16     could actually be ascribed to war activities, could it not?

17        A.   All this type of damages in a war zone could indeed be caused by

18     war.

19        Q.   In the course of your investigation, you also came by information

20     that in Kravica on the Orthodox Christmas day in 1993, Serbian civilians

21     were attacked and massacred; correct?

22        A.   I have information that indeed during the Orthodox Christmas day

23     of 1993, there was an attack on Kravica where a certain number of people

24     have been killed, but I did not investigate this matter and would not say

25     if these people were military or civilians.

Page 10417

 1        Q.   Did you learn in the course of your investigation that in July of

 2     1995 there were quite a few revenge motivated murders?

 3        A.   Absolutely, yes.

 4        Q.   How did you come by information -- or, rather, in this area of

 5     Konjevic Polje was this information related to a lot of isolated murders

 6     or groups of people killed?  I'm sorry, not Konjevic Polje.  I meant

 7     Kravica.

 8        A.   As far as the revenge aspect is concerned, I would more spot

 9     these things in Bratunac town.  Kravica warehouse is not something

10     committed by lonely individuals, isolated individuals.

11        Q.   This applies to the Kravica warehouse.  I meant the area around

12     Kravica.

13        A.   To summarise a large number of witness testimonies, those driving

14     along the road, individual bodies were spotted on -- on the way.  So

15     these lonely murders happened all along the stretch of road.  Kravica

16     warehouse involves a very large number of victims, and I think the

17     situation in Kravica has been already went through in details during -- I

18     mean during the presentation, but even much more during previous trials.

19     I'm sure you know all these details.

20        Q.   As for the warehouse in Kravica, is it correct that as prisoners

21     arrived there the atmosphere was relaxed, but that at one point the armed

22     Serb guards, members of the police, had two automatic rifles seized from

23     them by the Muslims who were in the warehouse and that one of the two

24     guards was killed, the other wounded?

25        A.   Regarding the relaxed ambience, I would not use these words, but

Page 10418

 1     indeed I heard the story about the fact that one of the soldiers had his

 2     hands burned when he -- he grabbed a rifle, but I need to say that as you

 3     know, the execution there, which is not in Kravica itself.  In Kravica

 4     itself there is another warehouse destroyed by war damage.  We never used

 5     it for the sake of any trial because it's not connected with any

 6     execution.  This warehouse is very -- at the exit of Kravica.  So it's

 7     not the warehouse in Kravica village.  It's very away of the village.

 8             Since the events in Kravica happened in two waves, we can split

 9     them in two parts, first the execution west, then later the execution

10     east.  Though the fact that a soldier was killed nearby and one had his

11     hand burnt on the spot, I see that what you mean that it would be a

12     reaction of angry soldiers who want to revenge their comrade.  I don't

13     know.  I cannot tell you what was the exact reason, but it's not exactly

14     like this, but I personally feel the situation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, the second part of your answer you more or

16     less confirmed that there was a story about a soldier killed.  Did the

17     investigation reveal any further information about when and where a

18     soldier was wounded and a soldier was killed?

19             THE WITNESS:  During the time I did the investigation, the only

20     thing we could observe is that there is a little memorial nearby, very

21     close to Sandici, to the name of apparently this soldier who was killed

22     the 13, as far as I know, because I learned that after I left the

23     Tribunal, the event of the killed soldier, as well as the story regarding

24     the burnt hands.  This was not during the six years I was busy with the

25     investigation.  I found out later by my conversations with my former

Page 10419

 1     colleagues.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the question suggested that it was

 3     related to the Kravica warehouse.  Did the investigation confirm that the

 4     person, the soldier killed, and the soldier burned or wounded, that that

 5     happened at the Kravica warehouse?

 6             THE WITNESS:  The burned hand at the warehouse, but the

 7     shooting of -- the death of this soldier not at the warehouse, nearby.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you consider nearby?

 9             THE WITNESS:  In the vicinity of the meadow, so less than

10     1 kilometre.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

12             Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, this will be the subject of -- of

14     the testimony and probably some fundamental agreement on these

15     interesting issues between the Defence and Prosecution, just so you know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but since Mr. Lukic raises the matter, I would

17     like to understand the answers.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             [In English] It's time for the break, Your Honour, I think.  It's

21     half past.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I missed what you said.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It's time for break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Time for a break.  Yes.  Yes.  We'll take a break,

25     and we -- but first we invite the witness to follow the usher.

Page 10420

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And we will resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Can we proceed?

10        A.   Sure.

11        Q.   For the record, there was a reference to soldiers in Kravica, but

12     is your information that there were representatives of the police, not of

13     the Army of Republika Srpska, were present there?

14        A.   From what I know, the presence was the presence of the

15     Special Police Brigade and of the command of Colonel Borovcanin.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move on to the area of Zvornik.  I'd

17     like to ask you something about Orahovac, the school in Grbavci, in

18     relates to Lazete 1 and 2 as potential execution sites.  The school in

19     Grbavci was used by the army for keeping their troops there; isn't that

20     right?

21        A.   Yes, it is right.  From time to time army personnel was using

22     this school.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The waste that was in front of the school and that

24     you analysed is not necessarily linked to what happened in July 1995; is

25     that correct?

Page 10421

 1        A.   No, it is not correct.  Since as you will have the forensic

 2     explanation by one team member who specialised in the matter, the

 3     blindfolds that were found at the school match the blindfolds that were

 4     found in the grave.  They match also those found at the dump site, and at

 5     a later stage, they match those found in the secondary graves linked with

 6     this site.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Is it correct that none of the detainees at school

 8     had heard bursts of gunfire in the vicinity of the school -- or, rather,

 9     at the locations of Lazete 1 and Lazete 2?

10        A.   Yes, that is correct.

11        Q.   Also, it is correct that people who had allegedly survived an

12     execution could not recognise locations at Lazete?

13        A.   Yes.  For the reasons I already exposed in my direct examination,

14     this is right.

15        Q.   Thank you.  At these locations, Lazete 1 and Lazete 2, a total of

16     493 bodies were found.  Do you recall that piece of information right

17     now?  If not, we'll move on.

18        A.   I accept your number.

19        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you something about the school in Petkovci.

20     We need P1132 in e-court, page 167.

21             You do know what we're talking about, the blackboard in the

22     classroom.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you investigate at all whether these are -- this is damage

25     that was caused by bullets?

Page 10422

 1        A.   We didn't take the board with us.  The only thing I could say is

 2     that the -- the holes in the board could very well match bullet holes,

 3     and this could - I say could - implement the witness testimony, regarding

 4     the fact that they were shot from time to time, fired from the outside to

 5     the inside if people why standing up to get more air.

 6        Q.   I'm pausing just in order to allow the interpretation to finish.

 7             Also, you did not find any bullets there, and you didn't even

 8     look for them; is that correct?

 9        A.   No, it's not -- it's half correct.  It's not correct at all, in

10     fact.  We did look for bullets, but as I said, this place had been fully

11     refurbished by a NGO before our arrival, so finding bullets in this place

12     was not possible.  It had been refurbished, renovated, at the exception

13     of this board.

14        Q.   Perhaps my question was not clear enough.  In the blackboard

15     itself, you did not find any bullets, and you didn't look for them

16     either?

17        A.   You are right.  We did not take off this board from the wall.

18        Q.   Also, is it correct that this area was the scene of heavy

19     fighting in 1992?  Did you know that?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask something about the school in

22     Rocevic.  We need photograph 187, just to be reminded of what it is

23     about.  We need 187 in e-court, that is.

24             Now that we're on the subject of this school as a detention

25     location, you personally did not investigate anything that had to do with

Page 10423

 1     this school in Rocevic; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, this is right.

 3        Q.   That was not done by your investigation team either while you

 4     still worked for the Tribunal?

 5        A.   As I said, I took this photograph just in anticipation we would

 6     at a later stage connect this school with the events we are

 7     investigating, but the -- the testimonies connected to military presence

 8     in this school by those who were guarding the prisoners at that school

 9     happened after my departure in 2001.  So I was personally not in a

10     position to investigate anything there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  For the time being, we won't be needing this any

12     more, so let us remove this from our screens so as not to distract the

13     witness.

14             In your investigations did you come to the following information,

15     that before Krivaja 95 in the area of Srebrenica there were constant

16     offensive operations takes place against the Serb villages?  These

17     operations were carried out by the 28th Division of the

18     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        A.   Yes, absolutely.

20        Q.   I know that you did not investigate this, but as background

21     information did you know how many Serbs were killed in these operations

22     carried out by the 28th Division?

23        A.   The usual number that comes up by those talking about these

24     events between 1992 and 1995 involving the Serb victims is usually 2.000.

25        Q.   Did you establish -- or, actually, did you deal with this at all,

Page 10424

 1     how many people were within Srebrenica before Krivaja 95 started?  Do you

 2     have precise information about that?

 3        A.   There are two questions, one regarding if I dealt with this

 4     aspect.  The answer, as you know, is no.  Investigation for me starts in

 5     11 July 1995, the fall of Srebrenica.  As far as the second one is

 6     concerned, the usual number from various sources, UN, NGO,

 7     Medecins sans Frontieres, the UN battalion, and so on, was about 45.000

 8     within the enclave, if I remember well.  But -- yeah.

 9        Q.   You didn't deal with that, although we have a Muslim document

10     from that period of time, and it says 36.000.

11        A.   Yes, I agree.  No problem.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  May I understand this as that you agree with the

13     existence of a Muslim document which says 36.000, or is it -- or do you

14     say that's the right number and all the others, the 45.000, are wrong?

15             THE WITNESS:  My real answer on this is that -- and I might have

16     to repeat it, is that in my eyes, what I consider my duty in this

17     investigation is to determine the number of people who have been

18     assassinated, the victims who have been first captured who were prisoners

19     and executed, and then calculations regarding the number of people within

20     the enclave.  I accept the number of 36 without any difficulty.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But earlier you said on average the estimates are at

22     45.000.  Now, if you say, "I accept 36," is that because you consider

23     this a better estimate, or -- or one of the estimates existing on the

24     lower side of the range?  How do we have to understand that you accept

25     something here?

Page 10425

 1             THE WITNESS:  It might be between 36.000 and 45.000.  I do not

 2     know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, that's --

 4             THE WITNESS:  Knowing how many people were inside the enclave

 5     before the fall of the enclave has not been my primary concern.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'd say you have no reasons to believe that

 7     it's certainly wrong.  It may be right --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as the 45.000, that may be right at well.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   During your investigation, did you find out how many people died

14     in Srebrenica during the course of the war or were killed during the war,

15     in Srebrenica itself, that is?

16        A.   My answer will be exactly the same as previously.  For sure

17     people died between 1992 and 1995.  Others died in combat.  Some died

18     from diseases, whatever, yes.  I didn't investigate this.

19        Q.   Is it also correct that you did not know the exact number of

20     people who had assembled in Potocari?

21        A.   Precise number, no.  I would let you rely on testimonies provided

22     by members of the UN battalion who have certainly an estimate of this.  I

23     remember 5.000 sheltered inside the main base, and some -- I don't

24     remember how many outside.  I would leave them to provide you with a more

25     precise estimate.  We had one, but I don't remember it by heart.  It's an

Page 10426

 1     estimate anyhow.  Nobody was there to count precisely the crowd.

 2        Q.   So all of these figures that we referred to until now are

 3     tentative.  They were never determined precisely, or at least not by your

 4     team.  Can we agree on that?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is it really a serious question whether

 6     it was ever established precisely by counting how many people were in the

 7     compound and outside the compound?  We have seen the pictures.  How is

 8     this a serious question or not?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  My question was not related, at least I hope, only to

10     Potocari but to the number of inhabitants in Srebrenica, number of

11     killed, number of died people in Srebrenica during the war.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then --

13             MR. LUKIC:  All are estimates.  All are --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- ask about that.  What you said is "so all of

15     these figures," that includes the assessment of the number of people in

16     the compound and outside of that.  So if you want to know whether the

17     population was counted, then you can ask for it.  At the same time, after

18     we've heard the evidence about when the witness says 36.000 could be

19     right, 45.000 could be right, that already indicates that there was no

20     such counting done.  So if you want to have further detailed information,

21     put focused questions to the witness.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   But I think in relation to this you cannot give us precise

24     information about the number of killed persons in Srebrenica or the

25     number of members of the 28th Division who lost their lives during the

Page 10427

 1     war and also about the number of inhabitants in Srebrenica; is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   It's absolutely right, because this was not connected to the

 4     events I was in charge of investigating.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Did you establish how many members of the

 6     28th Division were killed in fighting with the Serb forces, or in the

 7     shelling of the column that was attempting to break through to Tuzla?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.

 9        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you something about the initial contacts

10     that you had with the Muslim side when you started working.  You

11     contacted the authorities in Sarajevo when you arrived in BH in

12     July 1995; is that right?

13        A.   No, it is not right.  I arrived -- I arrived through Split on the

14     coast, and I flew in directly to Tuzla by helicopter.  I didn't go

15     through Sarajevo.

16        Q.   My question was not right.  I meant the authorities in Sarajevo,

17     the Sarajevo authorities.  I'm saying you did not establish contact with

18     the authorities of Republika Srpska or the military; right?

19        A.   Absolutely right.

20        Q.   This contact was made precisely with a view to investigating the

21     Srebrenica case, this contact with the authorities of the Muslim side?

22        A.   The initial goal of the mission was to assess the credibility of

23     the -- what I will call the press rumour claiming that 8.000 people had

24     disappeared following the fall of the enclave and that there was at least

25     one account of the mass execution that led the opinion of those who were

Page 10428

 1     covering the events to believe that, in fact, the disappeared people had

 2     been killed.  This was the initial situation.

 3        Q.   Through the authorities on the Muslim side, you got in touch with

 4     witnesses as well; isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, this is correct.

 6        Q.   You contacted members of the 2nd Corps, right, the one stationed

 7     in Tuzla, the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   No, not at stage.  Not in July and August 1995.  Later.  The

10     2nd Corps was much later.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D849.  Could we please take a look

12     at that.  Could we have it on our screens.

13        Q.   We see the B/C/S version in front of us.  We were be looking at

14     this document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 2nd Corps, and it

15     contains instructions as to how the methodology should be used, the

16     methodology for questioning witnesses, that is.  Did you have anything to

17     do with that, how information was to be collected, because this document

18     is dated the 10th of August, 1995.

19        A.   Yeah.  During the summer 1995, we interviewed -- I say "we"

20     because we were two persons interviewing.  It was me and Mrs. Sue Castro.

21     We were only two personnel during that summer, and we were later joined

22     by Mr. Papean, Jos Papean.

23             So I interviewed, I remember, one 28 Division member who had

24     nothing to say because he escaped.  He went through all the military

25     events between 13 and 16 July, but the military events were not the topic

Page 10429

 1     of our investigation.  We were trying to find out what happened to the,

 2     in brackets, disappeared persons.  So this military episode was of no

 3     concern.

 4             It might be that few more persons were -- from the 28 Division

 5     have been interviewed maybe by Jos Papean or Sue Castro, but we had no

 6     interest for this.  Our main concern was to find witnesses of three

 7     things:  The events in Potocari, that was the first group of persons we

 8     tried to identify; second group, what happened during the evacuation, the

 9     12 and the 13, all along the stretch of road --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be a need to consult with Mr. Mladic who

11     wants to remain seated and --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking.  Whispering.

14             It's still audible, Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, this is

15     the last time that we accept Mr. Mladic speaking at such a volume.

16     Otherwise, he'll have to wait until the break, and we'll not allow you to

17     consult any further.  So it's up to Mr. Mladic either to lower his

18     volume.  You may proceed.

19             THE WITNESS:  I didn't finish my sentence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's see where we were.

21             MR. LUKIC:

22        Q.   My question was -- sorry for interrupting you.  My question was

23     whether you have anything to do with this order of 2nd Corps?

24        A.   I discover this document.  I'm going to read it.  Give me the

25     time.

Page 10430

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I must try to follow what you are

 2     trying to do here.  This is a letter of the Army of the Republic of

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I don't know what the date of the letter is.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Okay.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  10th of August, 1995.

 6             Just a second.

 7             Are you saying that this letter is a letter according to which

 8     this witness is supposed to have collected information when he was

 9     investigating?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  I'm asking.

11             THE WITNESS:  I understand --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to keep matters simple.  Did you ever

13     receive any instructions as what format you should use when you would

14     interview witnesses?

15             THE WITNESS:  In no way.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  My question was the opposite one.  Did this gentleman

18     provide guidelines as to Army of B and H --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's totally unclear.

20             Did you ever suggest how members of the Army of the Republic of

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina would have to conduct their interviews and what

22     format they should use?

23             THE WITNESS:  Never ever.  The --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  That's an answer to my question.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Also to mine.  Thank you.

Page 10431

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  Yes, but if you put it clearly, you get

 2     an answer clear and quickly.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask you about the intercepts,

 5     the ones taken by the Muslim side.  Already in 1995 you heard that the BH

 6     authorities had intercepts in their possession; is that right?

 7        A.   This is right.

 8        Q.   You asked for that documentation for the first time on the

 9     13th of November, 1996.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   No, I -- I don't.

11        Q.   All right.  We have the chain of custody of the documentation.

12     You were not told at the time how many such intercepts there were; right?

13        A.   Not at all.

14        Q.   You were not told what the intercepts contained either; is that

15     right?

16        A.   This is right.

17        Q.   Is it correct that you received some of these intercepts for the

18     first time only in March 1998?

19        A.   This is true, because we did not receive them.  In fact, we found

20     them.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, is there any dispute about these

22     matters?  Apparently it is recorded.  It has been -- has been disclosed

23     to the Defence.  Have you ever sat together to see whether there's any

24     dispute about these matters?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have not, and I don't think there

Page 10432

 1     fundamentally is, though the date's so long ago I think there's some

 2     memory issues about actual dates, but the process is -- has been open and

 3     agreed upon for years fundamentally.  The intercepts and their content

 4     may have been in issue, but --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a different matter.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Mr. Lukic, why not focus on what is in dispute

 8     rather than matters which apparently are not in dispute.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Since this gentleman had first-hand knowledge about

10     the hand-over of these intercepts, we think it's appropriate to ask him

11     about this, because when he is gone, when he leaves the stand, we will

12     not be able to establish the --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if it's not in dispute, if you want to

14     present evidence by first-hand witnesses on matters which are not in

15     dispute, then you reserve your agenda until 2030.

16             I mean, if there's agreement, why -- unless there's any

17     additional question, were they in a blue box or were they in a green box

18     or whatever there is, but if there are matters, when did you for the

19     first time ask?  When did you receive the first one?  Was it a complete

20     set?  These seem to be matters which are, I take it, well recorded, and

21     apparently you rely on that information when putting these questions to

22     the witness.  So, therefore, I don't see the point.  P.

23             Lease proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I couldn't find the trace that it agreed in another

25     case and I don't remember that it's agreed in this case either.

Page 10433

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then check with the Prosecution whether you can

 2     agree on it.  That is what your task is, to see where there is dispute,

 3     where there's no dispute, so that you can present the evidence on matters

 4     where the Chamber will have to decide and not on matters where the

 5     parties do not disagree.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] In what form did you receive these intercepts,

 9     if you remember?

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The witness said they found the intercepts.  They

11     didn't receive them.  "In what form did you find these intercepts?"

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE WITNESS:  In the form of little leaflets, handwritten.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did the Bosnian authorities ever send an explanation as to why so

16     much time elapsed before you gained possession of these leaflets?

17        A.   We didn't ask them to provide the information, because as I said,

18     we found them.  So we didn't need to ask them why we didn't get them

19     before, because there was no need to ask them.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move to a different topic now.  I'll put some

21     additional questions to you about the methodology that you used.

22     Primarily, let's establish this:  You never worked for the Defence on

23     this case, you worked for the Prosecution, right?

24        A.   Let's make the things very clear.  I was an employee of the OTP,

25     paid by the United Nations.  In France, when we conduct an investigation,

Page 10434

 1     we say, we do it, I speak French, "a charge et a decharge," meaning that

 2     we look for the information that might help accusing someone, but we

 3     systematically look into what would also provide elements that he's

 4     innocent.  It's a question of mentality.

 5             Therefore, as I said, some of the witness testimonies we could

 6     implement, others we could not.  And then we use -- I mean, the

 7     Prosecution uses or not the information that we collect.  But in fact,

 8     yes, I worked for the Prosecution.  But what I explain is that it's not

 9     because you work for the Prosecution that you act in a biased way,

10     because I see what you mean.

11        Q.   Why did I ask you this?  Above all, I wanted us to confirm again

12     that you only investigated the crimes committed against the Muslims and

13     not the crimes against the Serbs; right?

14        A.   That was my task.  My mandate, if I can say so, as I told you,

15     was to investigate the rumour about the disappearance of 8.000

16     individuals happening to be from the Muslim side.  Had I received another

17     task, I would have tried to fulfil that task, but my task was that one

18     and only that one.

19        Q.   If you, well, as you tell us, investigated both those issues that

20     could incriminate or exculpate anyone.  Did you also investigate how many

21     people who were moving in the column were killed by the BH Army?

22        A.   Those killed in combat are not part of a crime.  We know that

23     there have been numbers killed.  Their bodies were still in the forest on

24     the hills between Potocari and Konjevic Polje during the summer 1996.

25     Meanwhile, me and my team were opening the mass graves connected with the

Page 10435

 1     detention sites.  A group of Norwegians led by Ms. Elisabeth Rehn were

 2     collecting bodies on the hills.  These bodies have never been counted for

 3     the sake of the Prosecution.  These are combat casualties.  We do not

 4     count combat casualties.  I repeat:  The only element of this

 5     investigation is to investigate crimes.  The death in these hills is not

 6     connected with any crime, as far as I know.  I mean, at least not the

 7     last execution we are talking about.

 8        Q.   My question was:  Did you hear from the witnesses that you

 9     interviewed that members of the 28th Division, some of them killed the

10     Muslims who were moving in the column?

11        A.   I've never heard such a thing.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you decided whose story you would

13     double-check and which witness?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You also decided which issues would be given priority; right?

16        A.   In full discussion with all my team members because it's a

17     collective work, but my answer is yes.

18        Q.   Is it correct that only the evidence that the Prosecution

19     believed was supportive of their case was led in the courtroom in the

20     previous cases?

21        A.   No.  I mean for the trials, yes, but during the investigation,

22     no.  If you wish, I can give you an example, short example, that will

23     inform you about the way we were doing the things.

24        Q.   We will get to that.  In the trial Popovic et al., my colleague

25     John Ostojic asked you if you were familiar with the concept called

Page 10436

 1     confirmatory bias.  Did you in your work know how to avoid any possible

 2     hint at you being effected by this confirmatory bias?

 3        A.   To be honest with you, I have no recollection of this concept,

 4     and I'm really not familiar with it, but what I can tell you also is

 5     that, you know, I have absolutely no training in terms of presenting this

 6     investigation in a courtroom.  I can also tell you that I didn't read one

 7     line before coming here of all the previous statements for the simple

 8     reason is what I have to say I know -- I know it because I did it.  I

 9     don't need to revisit the past.  I will always give you the honest answer

10     because there is only one in my head.

11        Q.   [In English] Okay.  We'll proceed.  [Interpretation] You said

12     that it should not be the case that one investigator would interview more

13     than one survivor from a site so as not to be contaminated by earlier

14     knowledge.  Do you recall that?

15        A.   I recall very well.  I was referring to the situation in July --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  There seems to be an audio

17     problem with Mr. Mladic.  No loud speaking, Mr. ...

18             It seems to have been fixed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I will have to repeat my question.  Is it correct that one

21     investigator should not be interviewing several survivors from a given

22     site, that's to say more than one eyewitness of the same event so as not

23     to be contaminated by previous knowledge?

24        A.   That is the ideal situation.  An example of it, July 1995.

25     July 1995, we were two investigators, I mean two persons taking

Page 10437

 1     statements.  Let's take the situation of the dam.  We have two survivors.

 2     I interviewed one.  Sue Castro interviewed the second one.  It seems

 3     purely logical.  You do not -- if you can avoid it, you share the things

 4     so in order for the future, for the sake of the future, not to be accused

 5     being indeed contaminated by the knowledge you have gained from the first

 6     one.  But this is when you can.  Sometimes you can't.  If you are alone,

 7     you deal with what you have.

 8        Q.   But can we agree that you interviewed three of the four survivors

 9     of Orahovica; is that right?

10        A.   It is unfortunately, right.  I did according to the available

11     resources.

12        Q.   We understand and accept that.  You agreed and said that you

13     interviewed these witnesses once again if that was necessary; right?

14        A.   If I remember well, for this type of very high quality witnesses,

15     let's say so, we did spend a day, let's say eight hours, which is

16     honestly nothing, and it was one interview.  On some instances I -- there

17     was another interview, for example the survivor of the Kravica warehouse,

18     because the first check I did not find the guard room he was talking

19     about.  So this one had to be re-interviewed, because I didn't -- I

20     couldn't be sure that the warehouse was the good warehouse because the

21     inside had been destroyed and we couldn't know that at that time.  But I

22     don't think the others were re-interviewed.  Maybe.  I don't remember.

23        Q.   [In English] Okay.  [Interpretation] I'd now like us to focus on

24     the Vuk Karadzic school.  Information about the number of detainees

25     within that school was something you received from Miroslav Deronjic; is

Page 10438

 1     that right?

 2        A.   I have no recollection having been ever provided with a number

 3     within this school.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that Miroslav Deronjic told you that only one

 5     classroom was being used for putting people there within that school?

 6        A.   You know, Miroslav Deronjic had a natural way of minimising

 7     everything, especially his involvement.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, the question is --

 9             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not whether you believe what he said --

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the question was whether Miroslav Deronjic told

13     you that only one classroom was used for putting people there.

14             THE WITNESS:  I do remember that now, yes.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Did you believe him?  Do you believe Miroslav Deronjic was

17     telling the truth?

18        A.   My belief, but it's a personal belief that I cannot implement

19     with evidence, is that since a column of buses and trucks was lined in

20     front of the school, my assumption is that the school was full, but I

21     never talked with anyone who was inside, so I cannot say that.  But since

22     also this school had already been used in 1992, especially the gym, I

23     don't see why it would not have been used in 1995.

24        Q.   But you yourself never heard of any evidence that would

25     contradict Miroslav Deronjic's statement?

Page 10439

 1        A.   I think the Prosecution has more evidence on this, but this

 2     happened after my departure.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, when you're talking about the buses, the

 5     column of buses and trucks lined in front of the school, that is at the

 6     occasion where Mr. Deronjic told you that only one classroom was used?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The night between the 12th and the 13th.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do I understand your testimony to say that

 9     I could not draw any definite conclusions on the matter, but if you have

10     several buses and lining -- buses and trucks for the people to be taken

11     from the school or to be delivered to the school or --

12             THE WITNESS:  No.  On one of the exhibits of the photograph of

13     Bratunac, I showed lines of buses in front of various places, one being

14     in front of -- lined in front of the Vuk Karadzic school.  So since the

15     people stayed all night onboard all of these buses and trucks, describing

16     some events also, my assumption is that they stayed in these vehicles

17     because the school was packed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Is it time for our next break?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we are about at the point where we take the

21     next break.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Because I'm moving to another subject, if it's a good

23     time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please tell us how much more time

25     you need.

Page 10440

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I will probably have to use all my time I asked for

 2     this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please be so kind to focus on matters which are

 4     in dispute and try to be as focused as you can.  And if you could remind

 5     me on how much time you said you would need.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Five hours.  I asked for seven and then I cut it down

 7     to --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Reduced it to five hours.  Yes.  I'll consult with

 9     Madam Registrar on the time already used.

10             Could the witness follow the usher.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we will resume at 25 minutes

13     past 12.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness could be

17     escorted into the courtroom, I have to apologise for the second time this

18     morning a late start which was due to very urgent Tribunal matters which

19     kept me busy for more minutes than I expected.

20             Meanwhile, I also use the time.

21             Mr. Lukic, the whole issue about that letter, one simple question

22     would have done:  Did you ever suggest how the BiH authorities would have

23     to use formats for their investigations?

24             If the witness would have said no, then we could have moved on,

25     unless you would have wanted to explore the matter further, but from what

Page 10441

 1     I understood, showing the letter, you accepted a no.  That letter, there

 2     was no suggestion whatsoever that the witness would have been involved in

 3     it, unless you have reasons to assume that.  If that is the case, you

 4     could have asked further questions, but the one simple question would

 5     have done it.

 6             Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud as he knows.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I mean with focused, Mr. Lukic.  You

 9     may proceed.  Mr. Ruez is ready, I see.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   [In English] Headphones on.  Glasses on.  [Interpretation] Now

12     I'd like to ask you something about these aerial images from another

13     source.  In an exhibit that you compiled, between 200 -- actually, among

14     271 photographs there are about 36 aerial images, and they were all

15     received from a single agency; isn't that right?

16        A.   They are received from a single agency, yes.  For the rest, the

17     numbers you give, I cannot be sure.

18        Q.   Very well.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  A matter which apparently is not in dispute that

20     they were received from a single agency?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  A single government source would be better.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So therefore, Mr. Lukic --

23             MR. LUKIC:  I have follow-up questions, so I have to establish

24     this.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll see whether it was really necessary to, but

Page 10442

 1     even if you have follow-up questions, if you agree on it, then you don't

 2     have to introduce the matter with the witness.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I have to inquire with Mr. McCloskey, do we have to

 5     go to a private session when we discuss this source?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not -- not the aerial images from the

 9     United States.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at page 236

11     from P1132.  Page 236 in e-court.

12        Q.   You see it on your screen now, the photograph; right?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   This is the only photograph from this source that I established

15     had a reference to the source.  Do you know why on other photographs,

16     since we have established that they all come from the same source, there

17     is no marking of source as far as these other photographs are concerned?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19        Q.   Is it correct that in these aerial images, these photographs,

20     something was added?  You've explained that to us already, who added the

21     orange, who added the yellow.  Is it correct that something was removed

22     from them as well, for example, some dates were removed; isn't that

23     right?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

25     microphones please be switched off.  We have great trouble hearing

Page 10443

 1     Mr. Lukic.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS:  On this one there is a date, and the yellow

 3     markings are the markings I have added to the original picture.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether anything was removed, isn't

 5     it?  Do you know whether someone else or you yourself removed anything

 6     from the picture?

 7             THE WITNESS:  I do not recall.  I don't think so, no.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D857 in e-court.

 9        Q.   We'll try to refresh your memory.  This is your testimony in the

10     Popovic case on the 14th of September, 2006.  We'll need page 71 in

11     e-court.

12             This is what you say, the question is in line 13, [In English]

13     and I quote:

14             "Q. My concern is that some of the photos, for example, didn't

15     have the date, and they had a box that still remained.  And my question

16     to you is:  Do you know who removed the date, if at all?

17             "A. On some of the pictures ... I used, not as such, but in order

18     to talk about the different events that -- in an area shown by this

19     imagery but that was not initially designed to present that situation, I

20     am the one who erased the dates so that we keep only, let's say, what can

21     be seen on the picture but not the reason why it was given to us."

22        A.   Yes, absolutely.  This is the case, for example, for one

23     photograph of Bratunac, I think, where the date was not of importance but

24     what was important is to show the location of some buildings.  So, yes, I

25     confirm that on some of them I might have erased the date because the

Page 10444

 1     date was not relevant, indeed.

 2        Q.   Why do you think that the date is not relevant?

 3        A.   If the goal of the exhibit is to show buildings which are

 4     constant features on the ground, that do not move except if destroyed,

 5     the date of it is not relevant.  As simple as that.

 6        Q.   Who decided to have the date removed?  Was that your decision?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you something about taking

 9     witness statements.  You never made audio or video recordings of witness

10     statements; is that correct?

11        A.   The rule is that we audio and/or video record the statements of

12     persons who have the status of suspects.  There is no audio and video

13     recording necessary for witnesses.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the question was not whether it was

15     necessary but whether they were made for a fact.

16             THE WITNESS:  No, they were not.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   None of the witnesses that you interviewed speak English; right?

20        A.   Right.

21        Q.   You did not give a B/C/S version of their statements to any one

22     of the witnesses that you interviewed; right?

23        A.   Right.  There was no translation made of the English version of

24     their testimony, but they were -- all of them had a read-back in B/C/S

25     prior signature.

Page 10445

 1        Q.   They signed the English version, just for the record.

 2        A.   There is only one version, the English version.

 3        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you something about the methodology that you

 4     personally applied.  You never compiled a report related to your

 5     investigations; is that correct?

 6        A.   I made internal reports, but none to be put in the records.

 7        Q.   In your work you relied upon experts from other fields, because

 8     you personally do not have knowledge from the fields of archaeology,

 9     anthropology, pathology, ballistics; is that right?

10        A.   Absolutely right.

11        Q.   As a team you compared during the course of your work traces on

12     ammunition that had been found in graves and the weapons that you

13     collected from the brigades that you suspected had taken part in the

14     killings; is that right?

15        A.   This is right.

16        Q.   Your team, at least while you were still involved, was not in a

17     position to confirm the suspicions that you had; right?

18        A.   Wrong.  You have to split the matter in two.  You are wrong on

19     one thing, which is the lack of comparison.  The comparisons were

20     positive between shell casings found on the surface of the execution

21     field when compared with the casings found inside the primary mass grave,

22     and later shell casings found in secondary mass graves enabled us to

23     connect the secondary sites with the primary ones.  Where you are right

24     is when you say that the operation of seizure of weapons from suspect

25     brigades were unsuccessful, indeed, but there are possible reasons for

Page 10446

 1     that.

 2        Q.   During that process did you check the weapons of the Muslim side?

 3        A.   No.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just check something with the witness.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ruez, you say now here on page 45, lines 21 to

 7     25, you say:

 8             "The comparisons were positive," sorry, "between shell casings

 9     found on the surface of the execution field when compared with the

10     casings found inside the primary mass grave, and later shell casings

11     found in secondary mass graves enabled us to connect the secondary

12     sites."

13             Were there any shells found in secondary mass graves?

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Everything should be plural, killing sites

15     with an S, execution sites with an S, et cetera.  Dean Manning is the

16     team member who will expose the entire summary of all these forensic

17     aspects.  It is not only the shell casings which enabled

18     these comparisons, but also soil, pollen --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I stop you just there.  Can you listen to my

20     question.  Is it your story, your evidence, shell casings were found on

21     secondary graves?

22             THE WITNESS:  This is what I said, and I repeat it, yes.  Shell

23     casings were found on the execution sites on the surface.  These shell

24     casings were later compared with those found among the bodies found in

25     the primary mass graves, and then when the secondary mass graves were

Page 10447

 1     found, the shell casings found inside the secondary mass graves were

 2     compared and enabled to connect secondary with primary, because these

 3     shell casings, due to the way the executions were done were spread all

 4     over, so mixed with -- some were even found in the mouth of some of these

 5     bodies.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, you have changed your evidence

 7     slightly.  You say now that these shell casings were later compared with

 8     those found among the bodies found in the primary graves.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, my question is going to be -- is going to

11     change based on that.  The shell casings you found in the secondary

12     graves, were they found in the bodies or just in the graves?

13             THE WITNESS:  Mixed with the soil and the body parts, mixed with

14     all what was found inside these secondary sites.  When heavy machines,

15     heavy equipment, collect the bodies, they take everything.  They take the

16     bodies, they take the soil, they take everything what is among it.  As I

17     showed the little film about the secondary sites Cancari 12, at one point

18     a person is using a metal detector and we can hear beep, beep.  Beep,

19     beep means shell casing.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Now I understand.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There may be some misunderstanding about his

22     meaning of casing.  It's an informal reference.  So I'm not sure exactly

23     if it's clear what he means by casing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the witness could explain, but let me see

25     whether I could summarise what I think it might be.

Page 10448

 1             A shell casing is the metal containing -- the metal part

 2     containing the propelling explosive which causes the bullet to leave the

 3     weapon and is usually thrown out from the weapon and therefore falls on

 4     the floor close to the weapon.  That is my understanding of what a shell

 5     casing is and what a bullet is.

 6             THE WITNESS:  We have the same.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So we will agree.  Even Mr. Lukic agrees on what a

 8     bullet is and what a shell casing is.  Okay, let's -- well, a matter not

 9     further in dispute.  Let's proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Now let us go to Potocari mentally, although you hadn't been

12     there.  A medical convoy of UNPROFOR arrived in Potocari and they

13     transported the wounded.  Is that correct?  Do you know about that?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.

15        Q.   The information that you have, does it indicate that these

16     persons are alive to this day?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Also, did you become aware of the fact that some wounded persons

19     were transferred from Bratunac, i.e., members of the

20     International Red Cross?

21        A.   I am not aware of that.  I don't remember.

22        Q.   Very well.  I accept that.  Now I'm going to ask you something

23     about civilians or persons who were in Potocari before and after arriving

24     in the territory that was under BH Army control.  So one group went

25     towards Potocari from Srebrenica, and another group that included members

Page 10449

 1     of the 28th Division mostly moved in the direction of Tuzla.

 2             My question -- actually, you've already answered it, my first

 3     question, that you did not know how many people had been in Potocari.

 4     However, now I'd like to ask you in addition to that whether you knew how

 5     many men there were among these people in Potocari.

 6        A.   A precise count again is not possible.  I remember there was an

 7     estimate.  I cannot recall.  We can see a certain number of them on some

 8     of the photographs and footages in Potocari, but I don't remember what

 9     the assessment was.  I think we had an assessment from the persons of the

10     UN battalion, but I don't recall precisely.

11        Q.   We accept everything, but we're just asking you the following:

12     Do you have this information?  The next thing I'd like to ask you is

13     whether you have information as to how many men were singled out in

14     Potocari.

15        A.   At the separation line no one was counting this -- this number.

16     What we know is that those that we have on footage, all of them are on

17     the missing list, identified by name.

18        Q.   How many of the persons in the film were identified by name?  Can

19     you tell us that?

20        A.   There will be a specific thing by the Prosecution on this, but

21     the footage with V-550 video shows approximately 20 people, so I know for

22     sure that these 20 are identified.  I don't know since when if there are

23     more.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You told us that you believe that the only valid

25     process in terms of determining the number of victims is to carry out all

Page 10450

 1     exhumations and to count the bodies.  My question is the following:  Is

 2     it correct that many secondary graves, as you call them, is in the

 3     immediate vicinity of the area where the column passed?

 4        A.   One could put it like this, yes.

 5        Q.   In your work did you establish exactly how many people had

 6     certainly been executed?

 7        A.   I don't have the precise data at this stage since it -- the

 8     number evolutes according to the ongoing exhumations, but as far as those

 9     conducted by the ICTY are concerned, the information I have is that we

10     are now at 6.000-plus-something identified bodies for which we connect

11     the graves with execution sites.

12        Q.   Since we have heard that you were not an expert in the field of

13     pathology, for instance, who did you receive this information from that

14     the possibility is ruled out that these 6.000 persons could not have lost

15     their lives in any other way but through a mass execution?

16        A.   Because of the process we describe.  Yeah, I repeat, because of

17     the process we describe.  First we -- based on the witness statements we

18     find the detention sites, the connected execution site, and then through

19     the forensics that would be later developed the connection with these

20     primary mass graves and then the secondary mass graves.  So for these

21     ones we have our track, and this track is not the burial of battle

22     casualties.  And again I will leave it to the chief exhumator, or our two

23     chief exhumators in order to explain the reasons why these bodies are not

24     battle casualties.

25        Q.   Very well.  In that case, then, we'll put that question to them.

Page 10451

 1     Ultimately the civilian from Potocari had to cross from the Serb to the

 2     Muslim side on foot.  Did your investigation show that the area these

 3     civilians crossed was, in fact, no man's land, which nobody could

 4     traverse, either the Serb or the Muslim side?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- what is the question about?  We are trying

 6     to understand the relevance, but sometimes a bit lost.  What are you

 7     seeking to establish at this moment?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It was sometimes presented that it was some kind of

 9     harassment of civilian population, that there was no need to drive

10     somebody across that piece of land by any of sides, nor Serb side nor

11     Muslim side.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is then the suggestion that once they were on their

13     feet they were free to go in whatever direction?  What's the -- I'm just

14     lost --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Was it done purposefully to maltreat the civilian

16     population.  It was just done because there was no other mean to

17     transport them to another side of the -- of the line.  They had to walk.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What does that tell the Chamber?

19             MR. LUKIC:  That it wasn't done purposefully to maltreat or

20     harass civilian population.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm still lost, but put a question.  We'll see what

22     the follow-up questions will be.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In the course of your investigation, did you come by information

25     that between the confrontation lines there was a minefield?

Page 10452

 1        A.   Yes.  Like all the confrontation lines during this war, yes.

 2        Q.   In your view did there exist a possibility for the Serb buses to

 3     cross that stretch of the road which the civilians traversed on foot when

 4     they were on their way to Kladanj?

 5        A.   Well, I mean, it was a logic that the drop-off was before the

 6     confrontation line, and this is where, at least on 12 July, there was

 7     again separation of -- of men who ended up at the little school in Luka.

 8     And those allowed to cross, they crossed by foot, yes.  Normal situation

 9     - I say normal - in these circumstances.

10        Q.   On the 12th of July there were members of the Dutch Battalion

11     with the civilians in the column; right?

12        A.   At the beginning, as far as I know, indeed the UN personnel tried

13     to escort the buses.  At least a few of them then crossed the line.  The

14     others were seized of their vehicles and equipment, as far as I know.  So

15     they couldn't monitoring the process.  There were blockades all along the

16     road for various reasons, the witnesses will better explain, but there

17     was no monitoring really of the situation by these UN forces.

18        Q.   If I recall correctly, we did agree today, and we'll discuss the

19     military column a bit.  Did you come by information that would indicate

20     how many armed persons were present in the column compared to those who

21     made up the column overall?

22        A.   Since it is a very rough estimate, what I usually say is that

23     approximately one-third of this approximately 15.000-man column was

24     armed.  We can see on footage that among these armed men are also

25     civilians carrying weapons.  Approximately a third according to various

Page 10453

 1     testimonies.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, were you referring to 15.000 or 50.000?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Fifteen.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I thought.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We established today that the column sustained losses.  Did you

 7     establish what the losses were in the column that were sustained in

 8     combat?  Do you have any information, and what does it indicate?

 9        A.   To make it very easy, we -- I mean, I never attempted to count

10     these battle casualties, because all of them are considered battle

11     casualties whatever happened to them in the forest.  As long as we do not

12     frame them as being victims of a crime, we do not investigate the matter,

13     and the military aspect of this operation is not the concern of the

14     investigation.  It's not the focus.  We will consider all of them as

15     legitimate battle casualties.

16        Q.   So did you establish -- did you try to establish the number or

17     not?  If you didn't, say so.

18        A.   I say so.  We didn't for the reasons I just told you.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you establish at least where and which parts of

20     the column sustained losses, major losses?  I will have to repeat my

21     question.

22             Geographically speaking, along that route did you establish the

23     locations where the column sustained losses?

24        A.   In connection with the investigation, the main losses were the

25     first ambush in the area above Kravica.  This is connected with the

Page 10454

 1     investigation, because it's the following morning that the massive

 2     surrender process took place.

 3             As far as the military story of the column is concerned, as you

 4     know there was a separation of this column in order to move towards

 5     Zvornik and make a fake attempt to attack Zvornik, but this part has not

 6     at all been investigated because I put it in the frame of the military

 7     history of this thing, not in the frame of the criminal investigation.

 8        Q.   When you were interviewing witnesses, did you come by information

 9     that the column sustained major losses already at Kamenica?

10        A.   Yes.  This is in fact the name of the location where the ambush

11     took place, Kamenica being in the vicinity of Kravica but behind the

12     hill.

13        Q.   Do you recall now what the witnesses told you whom you

14     interviewed, what the losses were?  Is it correct that the figures range

15     between a thousand and 2000?

16        A.   I don't think it matches the findings of the Norwegian team I was

17     talking about one hour ago, but again, all these persons killed in this

18     area, including those --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, if I -- if you do not mind, I would like

20     to interrupt you.

21             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was what the witnesses told you.

23     Whether there's contradictory evidence is a different matter.  That's

24     perhaps your mindset as an investigator that you're thinking about these

25     matters, but you're here as a witness of fact and you're asked what the

Page 10455

 1     witnesses told you in terms of number between a thousand and 2000.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I cannot confirm or infirm what the witness says.

 3     I don't know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did the witnesses also tell you about two ambushes at mount Udrc?

 7        A.   Again, the episodes between 11.00/midnight and the 16 along the

 8     path of this column was not the topic of the investigation, but, yes,

 9     Udrc was a differ crossing point.

10        Q.   You mentioned yourself the fighting around --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, the simple question was whether

12     they told you about ambushes at mount Udrc, whether it was a difficult

13     crossing point or not.  Did they tell you about ambushes at that spot.

14             THE WITNESS:  Ambushes, no.  Difficult crossing.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did they perhaps tell you how -- or what were the losses that

18     they sustained at that difficult crossing point?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You also told us that you didn't know what the losses

21     were in that important attack on Zvornik, although there was heavy

22     fighting taking place there as well.  You do know that.

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It may be a translation issue, but I don't think

Page 10456

 1     there's any history of an attack on Zvornik.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [No interpretation] [In English] Fake attack, as I

 3     think it was called.

 4             THE WITNESS:  A diversion.  It was a diversion movement, but

 5     again this is the military history --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.  If first Mr. Lukic would

 7     repeat what he said after Mr. McCloskey intervened.  Mr. McCloskey said,

 8     "I don't think there was any history of an attack in Zvornik," and then

 9     you said something, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I said "fake attack."  And actually witness corrected

11     me, it's "a diversion."

12             THE WITNESS:  The military terms is diversion.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS:  But again it's far away from this investigation we

15     are discussing here.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed, we have now a full record.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note that they are having

19     difficulty hearing Mr. Lukic, and the difference in the B/C/S words was

20     in one letter only, hence the error, "vazan," as opposed to "lazan."

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   There was also fighting on the very separation line or around it

23     when the column was crossing onto the territory under the control of the

24     BH Army; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10457

 1        Q.   The Zvornik Brigade sustained rather heavy losses on that

 2     occasion, or, rather, heavier losses than it had ever sustained during

 3     the course of the entire war; is that right?

 4        A.   This is what I heard, indeed.

 5        Q.   The colleague is telling me to emphasise that this is the

 6     Zvornik Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7             You do know what sanitisation of terrain is; right?

 8        A.   Right.

 9        Q.   It implies the collection of dead bodies following any sort of

10     combat; right?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   In that process the army buries the dead.  Would the army bury

13     only its own dead or even the dead of the enemy, that's to say all of the

14     dead bodies?

15        A.   This I don't know.  It's up to the commander.

16        Q.   Is it correct that the bodies would be buried in common graves in

17     such occasions?

18        A.   One would think so.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, again I'm trying to understand your line

20     of questioning.  Do you want to ask the witness simply whether he has

21     investigated whether where mass graves were found, whether the

22     investigation gave any support for the idea that they may have ended up

23     there after the sanitation of the terrain?  I can imagine that you would

24     then have a focused discussion, for example, on the presence of shell

25     casings around that mass grave.  Well, there's a lot to be said about it,

Page 10458

 1     but is that what you're -- what you're -- what you want to establish?

 2     Then let's be clear on that.  Is that --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Can you answer the questions raised by Judge Orie.

 5        A.   I know the only option you have is this one, to say that these

 6     people we found are battle casualty, that we leave it to the experts to

 7     explain.  This is not the case, and what I could add is just that if you

 8     look indeed at the terrain, at the distances, at the dates, to me what --

 9     this theory is useless.  It's not true.  All this investigation, all the

10     forensics show very clearly what the path of these prisoners was.  I

11     think it's very well reconstructed, but I understand that there is a need

12     to say that tease people with blindfolds and ligatures are battle

13     casualties.

14        Q.   That is not our case.  I apologise.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep matters short.  Do I understand your

16     answer to be, Mr. Ruez, that on the basis of the investigations not only

17     by you but also by colleagues and experts, that a lot of facts were

18     established which would contradict an explanation of the situation as the

19     persons found in mass graves to be collected during a process of

20     sanitation only?  Is that, in brief, what you want to tell us?

21             THE WITNESS:  This is absolutely right, but I'm talking only

22     about the graves we show during these trials.  If other graves come up

23     from other sources, Bosniak sources, for example, they are not under

24     investigation.  I would personally not meld them with --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 10459

 1             THE WITNESS:  -- this process.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You say if we understand this answer in this way, it

 3     would apply only to the graves you have investigated.

 4             Mr. Lukic, does this clarify the matter for you?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, and I'll just have one or two

 6     follow-up questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm also looking at the clock.  If -- I think

 8     we started a bit late, but in order to have some time left after, if you

 9     would do the one or two follow-up questions now and then we take a break.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thanks, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] You mentioned ligatures and blindfolds.  What

12     did your investigation reveal?  How many people of the 6.000 that you

13     just mentioned had their hands tied and blindfolds on?

14        A.   I will leave this to the expert witnesses who will come here

15     to --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You do not know as a witness whether they will come

17     or not.  That's for the parties to decide.  But you'd say you'd rather

18     leave answers to those questions to those who investigated in detail

19     those matters.

20             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.  Who already testified in all the

21     previous trials.  That's why I allow myself to say that.  They will or

22     maybe they already came, I don't follow this trial aside my own

23     testimony.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't know?

25             THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  I don't have -- I mean, I'm --

Page 10460

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, do you know the numbers?

 2             THE WITNESS:  No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then a simple no would have done right from

 4     the beginning.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  One more.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know -- did you establish in the course

 8     of your investigation that there were bodies of different degrees of

 9     decomposition found in the same grave?

10        A.   This is a detail I do not know, and I leave it to the experts.

11             MR. LUKIC:  That were my follow-up questions.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then we take a break first.  Could the

13     witness already follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I've been thinking a lot about the

16     previous issue where I said I was lost.  I think I now do understand it

17     and I think the following simple question would have done:  Witness,

18     those who had to walk for the last part of reaching the other territory,

19     did you form an opinion about that was harassment or whether it was

20     inevitable due to the fact that they had to cross no man's land with all

21     the risks of that and where they could not be accompanied by the

22     soldiers?

23             Then I would have understood what the issue was you were raising.

24             We finally have to make up our mind on the basis of the evidence,

25     so the clearer you present it, the better we'll be able to evaluate it.

Page 10461

 1             We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

 5     into the courtroom, I'd like to raise the following issue:  On the

 6     23rd of April, the Defence has filed a request for an extension of time

 7     to file its Rule 94 bis (B) notice in response to the Prosecution's

 8     28th of March, 2013, notice of disclosure of the expert report of

 9     Dr. Helge Brunborg.  In the request it submits that the Defence expert is

10     still in the process of analysing the material provided by the

11     Prosecution, adding that, moreover, it has not yet received B/C/S

12     translations of two figures accompanying the expert reports.

13             Any problem in the request being granted, and when do you think

14     the B/C/S would be provided to the Defence?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Mr. Lukic, when I asked him,

16     gave me the exact numbers of those tables a few days ago and we have sent

17     them to be translated and we should have them any day.  So that shouldn't

18     be problem.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest at this moment the Chamber will grant

20     the requested relief, and we set the deadline provisionally in the

21     expectation, Mr. Lukic, that the B/C/S material will arrive soon.  We set

22     the deadline for a Rule 94 bis (B) response to the 14th of May, and if

23     anything unexpected happens, of course you can address the Chamber again.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You now may continue.

Page 10462

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Ruez, you mentioned the Norwegians to us.  Do you know how

 3     many bodies they collected in total and in which area?

 4        A.   They operated in the area of Kamenica.  I don't know how many

 5     bodies were collected.  What I do know is that they have left many since

 6     two years later I did request to SFOR at that time to have an overflight

 7     by helicopter, and they brought back a film where obviously human remains

 8     were still very obviously in the area.  So they didn't collect all the

 9     bodies there.

10        Q.   You cannot give us an approximation as to the number of bodies

11     that had been collected by the Norwegians?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreters did not hear the end of

13     Mr. Lukic's sentence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your question,

15     Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you give us the total number of bodies

18     collected by the Norwegians and the number of bodies that you saw or

19     discovered later when flying in that area, as you said.

20        A.   No, I don't know the number.  We stayed disconnected from this

21     team since they were operating on humanitarian ground, and this area

22     being a battle area was out of the frame of the investigation.

23        Q.   Do you know that on the 16th of April the Muslim forces launched

24     a counter-attack against the Serb forces?  Is that correct?  Is that

25     something that is separate from the breakthrough itself of the line, that

Page 10463

 1     is, to help the breakthrough of the 28th Division, or is this a separate

 2     battle, if you will?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  16th of April.  Which year, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  1995, sorry.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Are we talking about April or July?

 6             MR. LUKIC:

 7        Q.   I made a mistake.  16th of July, 1995.

 8        A.   In the area of Nezuk indeed was the breakthrough, the 16, which

 9     was not really a breakthrough since the Serb side opened the line for the

10     column to exit according to some deal with the Serb prisoners without

11     entering the details again.  This is, for me, part of the military

12     history of the situation but not part of the criminal investigation since

13     I have all reasons to believe that the bodies of these battles are to be

14     found but not in the graves under investigation.

15        Q.   Do you rule out that possibility or are you making an assumption?

16        A.   I rule it out for three reasons:  The geographic location of the

17     graves we exposed; the dates in connection with the records of the

18     engineer battalion of the Zvornik Brigade; and because of all these

19     forensic elements.  So for these three reasons, I totally disconnect the

20     sites that we are presenting here in court with possible sanitary and

21     burials that occurred at one stage or another in the area.

22        Q.   A geographic reason can be overcome by transport; isn't that

23     right?  Sorry.  And a time objection would not be proper if we're looking

24     at secondary graves; right?

25        A.   The secondary grave aspect will have to be separate from always,

Page 10464

 1     but if you take Lazete, for example, the witnesses say that the execution

 2     during the night took place when the heavy equipment was already burying

 3     part of the grave.  So thinking that these bodies would be at the same

 4     moment when the battle at Nezuk -- buried and in Lazete, sorry, but I

 5     cannot tell you what I think of that.  I mean it's -- for me it is such a

 6     nonsense that I don't want to be too radical in my answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the focus of the testimony of this

 8     witness was and should be, I tried to remind the Prosecution various

 9     times and I remind you now as well, is not what conclusions he drew from

10     these matters and what happened but, rather, what he found during his

11     investigations.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I think all my questions have that caveat, that I

13     always ask the witness even at the beginning when he asked me would I

14     want his assumption, I said, No, I want the result of your investigation.

15     But I will move on.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ruez, did you find out during your

17     investigations that about 1.000 soldiers from Srebrenica broke through to

18     Zepa and then crossed over to Serbia from there, or did you not deal with

19     this at all?

20        A.   These 1.000 are not to be found in the graves that we connect

21     with the capture and assassination of the prisoners.  The only thing that

22     involved interest for us and for me and for the Prosecution linked with

23     this movement of people towards Zepa is that one of the survivors of the

24     Kravica warehouse fled to Zepa.  And this is the reason why he survived,

25     because being captured in Zepa he was not identified as coming from

Page 10465

 1     Srebrenica and ended up at the last prisoner exchange in March 1996.

 2        Q.   In brief, your answer would be, "We were not dealing with it,"

 3     right?

 4        A.   Totally out of the frame of the criminal investigation.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Were you addressing the fighting that broke out

 6     between one stretch of the column and another stretch of the column where

 7     people were not aware of the fact that they were part of the same column?

 8        A.   No, but they will be counted among the battle casualties.

 9        Q.   And how?

10        A.   Since they --

11        Q.   In your view, how is that distinction made?  Apart from 400-odd

12     bodies that had ligatures on them, how would you distinguish between

13     someone who was killed in combat and someone who was executed?

14        A.   Again, from this path that leads from the moment the person has

15     been captured or has surrendered then taken to a detention location, then

16     taken to an execution area, and the burial process and the forensic

17     linked with it, plus the dates that we know the heavy equipment was sent

18     to bury these bodies, all this, in my view, excludes the possibility that

19     the graves we are talking about are graves filled with battle casualties

20     collected on the ground for sanitarian reasons.

21        Q.   We said that in the course of your investigation you relied upon

22     the assistance of experts from different fields.  Is it correct that

23     experts in forensics were not able to make that distinction with this

24     certainty and to ascertain who the persons were who were killed in combat

25     as opposed to those who were executed?

Page 10466

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think there is a basic misunderstanding

 2     here.  What the witness says is:  Our investigation was focused on

 3     people, let's keep it simple, found in the mass graves or at the least

 4     the larger graves, people that had surrendered or were captured, then

 5     taken to this place, et cetera.  What you are saying now is that the

 6     forensic experts not always were able to make the distinction between

 7     those who died in combat and those who, for example, were -- indications

 8     were found by ligature or whatever.  So you are referring to the group

 9     which is part of the investigation.  The witness told us, and that was

10     how it started, that whoever may have died in the column, not having

11     surrendered, not having -- whatever happened there, right or wrong, would

12     be considered combat casualties for very practical purposes.  Whether

13     they were or not is a different matter, but at least that's how they were

14     considered.

15             The witness also has told us that he, on the basis of the

16     investigation, he considered it to be excluded for good or bad reasons.

17     You can further explore that, that those found in the mass graves were

18     taken there as a result of sanitation measures.  And, of course, if you

19     are killed somewhere before having surrendered, before having --

20     having being captured, then you would be found somewhere and then on the

21     basis of sanitation -- explain to us why he considers it unlikely or that

22     people that ended up in the graves he investigated.

23             Now, that story gives an answer to the question at least, but

24     let's see what Mr. Ruez says, that even, and I take it you are referring

25     to forensic pathologist or forensic -- you said only "forensic."  There

Page 10467

 1     are a lot of forensic sciences other than -- but they have apparently

 2     examined the bodies found somewhere and were not able on the basis of

 3     their expertise to establish whether they were casualties of combat or

 4     not, so therefore you cannot rely on them to draw any conclusions, and I

 5     understood from Mr. Ruez that then often conclusions were drawn, right or

 6     wrong, on other sources, testimonies, whatever.  But what the forensic

 7     pathologists found in those graves is something which is not part -- that

 8     in Mr. Ruez's explanation cannot be people coming from what happened in

 9     the column.  So, therefore, I do not see how you can mix up the two.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I'm not sure I'm mixing up anything but --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then put a clear question which shows that

12     you're not mixing up anything.  Because the casualties in the column are

13     not the bodies Mr. Ruez explained us to be found in the graves he -- that

14     were the subject of his investigations.  These are two different

15     categories.

16             And, Mr. Ruez, unless I misunderstood your testimony --

17             THE WITNESS:  No.  It's a perfect summary.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm not here to summarise testimony, but,

19     Mr. Lukic, put your next question to the witness.

20             MR. LUKIC:  If I can explain myself a bit further.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you put the right questions I'll not intervene.

22     I mean, with the right questions, of course you choose yourself, but ...

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This is my question:  How is it possible that in the secondary

25     graves, we're not talking about primary graves now, only about the

Page 10468

 1     secondary graves, how is it possible that one can be sure that such a

 2     grave does not contain the bodies of those who were killed in battle?

 3        A.   I insist again on the fact that there will be an expert coming

 4     who will develop at length all the forensic details that enable us to

 5     confirm that the bodies found in the secondary graves are coming from the

 6     primary graves that have been disturbed end of September, beginning of

 7     October 1995.  So by adding the leftover of the primary graves with what

 8     is found in the secondary graves, connecting them we end up with a final

 9     number of persons executed on each of these execution sites we went

10     through during my direct testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me keep this short as well.  I do understand

12     that your answer is that experts -- that you learned that experts are

13     able to explain why such a conclusion can be drawn.  That's simply --

14             THE WITNESS:  We can put it like this.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] In that case, we'll wait for the expert to

18     appear.  Let me ask you a question about identity documents.  Is it

19     correct that you and members of your investigation team came to the

20     conclusion that most of the soldiers, members of the 28th Division in

21     Srebrenica, discarded all the items that could possibly identify them as

22     combatants?

23        A.   No.  This was not under investigation.  Most certainly some did

24     it for whatever reason, but this was not under investigation.  Again, at

25     the end if the prisoners are military or civilians, they are prisoners.

Page 10469

 1        Q.   [In English] I'll have to just try again to remind you.  I'll

 2     call 1D858 in the e-court.  1D858, and we need page 48.  We need lines 19

 3     through 25, actually, through 23, and I'll quote:

 4             "Q. Sir, with respect to these identification cards, isn't it

 5     true that you in your investigation or you as the investigator in charge

 6     of this team have concluded 'most of the soldiers were getting rid of any

 7     element which could identify them as combatants,' correct?

 8             "A. Yes, correct."

 9        A.   Yes, okay.  You know, not only the military, but I believe others

10     also.  I will not enter in weird details regarding this aspect, but in

11     some instances several IDs were found in -- hidden in a place where no

12     one would find them on one person.  Not being identified was indeed a

13     concern for most of these men who were fleeing, because they -- they were

14     fleeing.  They had reasons to flee, sometimes because they were

15     combatants, sometimes because they were just horribly scared due to their

16     previous experience in the area since 1992, and so on and so on.  But at

17     the end of the day, it's the DNA that is of interest for us in order to

18     identify who is who based on the missing book of the ICRC.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] DNA analysis, I don't know if you heard it from

20     your colleagues, does not point to the manner of death.  It only

21     establishes identity.

22        A.   Yes, absolutely.  And the cause of death, as you know, is always

23     multiple gunshot wounds.  This makes it indeed difficult to compare

24     someone killed in combat with someone killed by a firing squad, but again

25     it's the full chronology of these individuals that begs the difference

Page 10470

 1     between someone who has been assassinated and someone who died in combat.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, when you were asked by Mr. Lukic whether

 3     the investigation team came to the conclusion that most of the soldiers,

 4     members of the 28th Division in Srebrenica, discarded all the items that

 5     could possibly identify them as combatants, you said "No," and at least

 6     you explained why the answer was no.  And then a part of the testimony

 7     was put to you with exactly the same language where during that testimony

 8     you answered, "Yes, correct," and then you started explaining other

 9     things.  It seems to be contradictory.  It may be that you would have

10     wanted to say more or to further explain, but at least what you say today

11     is 180 degrees opposite to what you said when you said in that other

12     case, "Yes."

13             THE WITNESS:  I disagree.  If you read back my first instinctive

14     answer, I said, "No, maybe many did," and so on, because I was not

15     focused on the topic for the simple reason that to me this is not of high

16     importance --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt, Mr. Ruez.  Which is the

18     instinctive answer which we must look at?

19             THE WITNESS:  The first answer when I said "No," and then

20     thinking it through I added something --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In today's testimony?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS:  Today, yes.  Well, one would, I think, very easily

24     understand in the circumstances of this period of time that an individual

25     fleeing the Bosnian Serb Army was not necessarily willing to flag off his

Page 10471

 1     identity.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but -- let me see again.  One second, please.

 3     You were asked about the conclusions of the investigation team in both

 4     questions, at the time and now.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you said, "Yes, that is correct," and today

 7     you say -- and that's not saying what happened or what didn't happen.

 8     You were asked about whether the conclusions of the team at the time were

 9     that most of the soldiers were getting rid of any elements which could

10     identify them as combatants.  At the time you said, "Yes."

11             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hmm.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether it's right or wrong, but that was the

13     conclusion.  Today you said, "No."  You added to that that many may have

14     done so, but you denied that this was the conclusion of the

15     investigation.  You even explained that it was not part of the

16     investigation, and that contradicts what you said in the previous case.

17             THE WITNESS:  Perfect.  Let's take it as a contradiction.  I

18     agree.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Well, Mr. Lukic, when I say please

20     proceed, it is -- we are already beyond quarter past 2.00.

21             Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I -- just we find ourselves with a logistic

23     situation.  I have not spoken to Mr. Ruez and his ability to come back,

24     and I don't know, perhaps Your Honours have a preference when he does

25     come back.  Does Mr. Lukic need him to come back, which I assume based on

Page 10472

 1     his time-frame he may.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I have less than one hour, in between half an hour or

 3     an hour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Half an hour.  I don't have, off the top of my head,

 5     the schedule for next week.  Would there be any problem in starting on

 6     Wednesday with the last half hour of cross-examination?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The -- well, aside -- I don't know Mr. Ruez's --

 8     his police schedule.  We do have our last two DutchBat soldiers, I

 9     believe a private and a general, both who have Dutch interpreters

10     reserved.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, Mr. Lukic, you -- most likely then it

12     would be at a later date after.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Whenever it suits the witness and the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ruez, I know France is at a distance, but would

15     you be willing to come back and do you have any -- could you please

16     communicate with the Victims and Witness Section, not with the

17     Prosecution but Victims and Witness Section, whether you have any dates

18     where you would not be available or whether you have any dates of

19     preference so that we could hear the last part of your testimony.

20             THE WITNESS:  I will stay available to the Defence as soon as we

21     can fix a date with the witness unit, no problem.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would please then do that.  And most

23     likely it will not be next week then because the first two days we're not

24     sitting, and after that we have interpreters.

25             Then I have again to instruct you, Mr. Ruez, that you should not

Page 10473

 1     talk about your testimony or communicate in any other way with whomever,

 2     and then you may now follow the usher and we would like to see you back

 3     soon.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any other matters to be raised before we

 6     adjourn?  If not, we adjourn for the day with apologies for the late

 7     finish to everyone who is suffering under it, and we will resume

 8     Wednesday, the 1st of May, in this same Courtroom I at 9.30 in the

 9     morning.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day

12                           of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.