1 Wednesday, 8 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
11 There being no preliminaries, may the witness please be called
13 And while the witness is coming in, we just deal with one matter.
14 But before we do that, just to announce that the Chamber today is sitting
15 pursuant to Rule 15 bis. Due to urgent Tribunal business, Judge Orie is
16 not able to be with us today.
17 Okay. Now deal with this one matter that we have to deal with.
18 On the 3rd of May, 2013, the Prosecution filed a motion seeking
19 to amend the status of RM297 from Rule 92 bis to Rule 92 ter and the
20 status of Witness RM324 [Realtime transcript read in error "RM3"] from
21 Rule 92 ter to Rule 92 bis. In its motion the Prosecution submits that
22 it has discussed the status change with the Defence and that the Defence
23 does not object. The Defence will, the Prosecution submits, withdraw any
24 previous objections to that admission of the Rule 92 ter statements for
25 both witnesses.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 Mr. Lukic, does this reflect accurately the position of the
4 MR. LUKIC: Can we have a few seconds. I have to check the
5 numbers. I don't know the names by heart.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can tell us later. Thank you so much. Okay,
7 we wait for you.
8 Good morning, Mr. Franken.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, I must apologise for the fact that you
11 walked in while we were attending to some other business which doesn't
12 concern you.
13 Just to remind you, Mr. Franken, that you still bound by the
14 declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
15 truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.
16 WITNESS: ROBERT FRANKEN [Resumed]
17 THE WITNESS: I am aware of that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Franken.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready?
20 MR. LUKIC: Before my colleague starts, only in transcript I
21 don't have the other number. It just says "3."
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: The one is 324.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you are ready, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 All right. Mr. Stojanovic, you were dealing with P1147 when we
1 adjourned yesterday. Do you want it on the screen?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I would
3 appreciate that.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we have that on the screen, please.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. If you recall, yesterday we
7 left off during the viewing of clips from the video recording of what we
8 call the first meeting held in Fontana on the 11th of July, 1995. Since
9 we have one more clip to see, I would kindly ask for it to be played, and
10 after that, I have a few questions for you relating to the basic subject
11 of our discussion.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So can we please play a clip
13 from P1147, starting at 59:10, an ends at 00: --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1:03:25.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 "I have a question.
18 "What can I say to General Nicolai after we have met here
20 "You don't have too much good of the conversation with
21 General Nicolai. He cannot help you, either you nor the Muslim
22 population. But if you do insist, anyway, you tell him ... UNPROFOR
23 troops, no matter of the air strikes, no matter what, your soldiers
24 shooting at my soldiers are not the goal of mine. Every one of you and
25 your soldiers have only one life. And I do not believe that you would
1 like to leave it here. That's why I ask for absolute co-operation. The
2 goal of my action is also not the Muslim civilian population. I want to
3 help you, even though you do not deserve it. Not as a human nor as an
4 officer, but I will do this because of those children of UNPROFOR.
5 Because I wouldn't like their mothers to welcome them in coffins. I also
6 want to help that Muslim civilian population which is also not to be
7 blamed for what happened. That's why I would like to ask you the next
8 thing. Are you able and when would -- when would you be able to bring
9 here representatives of civilian population? I would have an arrangement
10 with them ... from here, you can go out, all of you, or stay, all of you,
11 or die, all of you. And I wouldn't like you to die. If Muslim army in
12 Srebrenica wants to talk, you may bring some of their representatives.
13 If it's possible that that ... by your estimation that one that is the
14 main authority there, and I know that Naser Oric is not there. At that
15 meeting, I'm expecting we can agree that all this stops, and that problem
16 of civilian population, Muslim army and your soldiers is resolved in a
17 peaceful way. You have my guarantees for organising such a meeting and
18 for the people you will bring here. Are you able to do it tonight?"
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Franken, this is, I would say, the address of General Mladic
21 at this first meeting which summarises everything that had been discussed
23 My question is: Did you have an opportunity to see this
24 video-clip or video recording of this first meeting in the past?
25 A. Not to this extent. I saw one clip where the toast was, but
1 further on, it's new to me.
2 Q. Based on what you saw yesterday and today, did you ever notice or
3 hear that General Mladic issued any threats with regard to the shelling
4 of the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari?
5 A. First, I understand that this is just a part of that meeting,
6 what is recorded. So --
7 Secondly, literally, I didn't hear Mladic say anything about, If
8 you not, then we will shell, in this footage.
9 Q. Did you hear, based on these video-clips shown to you - and I
10 understand the restrictions that you are facing - did General Mladic, at
11 any point, indicate to Colonel Karremans that he might target and shoot
12 on the Muslim civilian population?
13 A. Not literally, but there were some threats in this -- in this
14 footage. I remember Mladic saying in the last footage, in the last clip,
15 that there were three possibilities: Stay, go away, or die.
16 He said in another clip that the POWs, if not, then would be no
17 guests anymore. So there were some threats but not given better content.
18 Q. Did you hear any threat at all aimed at the civilian population?
19 Or maybe you did answer my question, but I didn't receive it.
20 A. I think I did answer, because I believe in the last clip Mladic
21 says that there are three possibilities. I repeat what I said before:
22 One was you can stay, you can go, or you can die. And in the text before
23 that, it's obvious that he meant with "they" or "you" the population and
25 Q. And, finally, during these video-clips did you hear from
1 General Mladic any threats aimed at members of the Dutch battalion that
2 were in this hotel on that particular evening and who had arrived from
3 their observation posts?
4 A. Yes. He said somewhere in -- in -- in one of the clips before,
5 he said that the POWs, if - and I don't exactly remember the words - but
6 if we didn't co-operate or if we didn't stop opposing the VRS, the POWs
7 wouldn't be treated anymore as a guest or words of that content.
8 Q. In the last clip, General Mladic says - and I'm going to quote
10 "UNPROFOR forces, despite the air strikes by NATO, and the
11 activities aimed at my forces by your forces, are still not the target of
12 my activities in the military sense of the word."
13 So if you are told something of that nature by the head of the
14 army that you are talking to, would you take that as a clear indication
15 that UNPROFOR forces were not the target of his operations?
16 A. It's quite clear that he said that. That doesn't take away the
17 fact that on your previous question if I heard any threats in -- in
18 the -- in the speaking, in the speech of General Mladic, well, I heard
19 threats, and whether or not the objective of his actions were the
20 DutchBat III is, as far as I'm concerned, concerning the threats he said,
21 he told about, is not relevant.
22 Q. Can we agree that after the 11th of July, the evening of the
23 11th of July, there was never any shelling of the Potocari compound?
24 After the 11th of July.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. The fact is that what General Mladic said materialised in the way
2 that he described on the evening of the 11th.
3 A. Yes. What -- what's your question? What? Do you want me to
4 confirm that?
5 Q. Yes. Just to confirm that.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Thank you. Would you be so kind to tell me this. But, first of
8 all, let us look at document D280. That's your statement that we used
9 yesterday as well, dated the 22nd July 1995, which you gave at the Pleso
10 base. And if we can look at page 4 in the B/C/S and that would be
11 paragraph 5, and page 6 in the English version, the penultimate
12 paragraph. This refers to the evacuation of the population. So in the
13 English, it's page 6, the penultimate paragraph. Thank you.
14 And it reads, these are your words:
15 "It was agreed with Mladic that UNPROFOR would supervise it. Our
16 role was to provide as much presence as possible and to escort them. The
17 men were separated from the women. The Muslims agreed to let the men be
18 investigated for war crimes, under the supervision of the UNHCR and the
19 Red Cross may be investigated. Note: Franken says he is in the
20 possession of the English and Bosnian text of the agreement with Mladic.
21 He himself acted on the basis of an oral translation by his interpreter."
22 Let me ask you this with regard to this passage. It says that
23 the Muslims had agreed that the men suspected of war crimes may be
24 interrogated under the supervision of the UNHCR and the Red Cross.
25 Can you please explain to us what was the source of this
1 statement of yours?
2 A. At first, I think UNHCR is incorrect and should have been UN.
3 And I do not remember the source.
4 This statement is from 1995, but I don't recollect the source. I
5 know that -- sorry. I don't remember what the source was, but there must
6 have been a source because I didn't think it up myself. I can't say what
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would the source not be the agreement itself?
9 THE WITNESS: It could have been, Your Honour, but I don't really
10 remember. I can't indicate a source, whether it's agreement verbal
11 message, guide-line of Colonel Karremans or whatever. I do not really
12 remember. I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question.
15 It is written here "the Muslims agreed."
16 Who are "the Muslims"? Who are you referring?
17 THE WITNESS: I think that refers to the committee - we formed
18 representatives of the Muslims - and that's what I'm referring to with
19 "the Muslims."
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The committee is the people who participated in
21 the Hotel Fontana meeting; is that correctly understood?
22 THE WITNESS: That's correctly understood, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just clear one thing with you,
25 Mr. Franken. Is this statement as it stands, "are these your words."
1 When Mr. Stojanovic started reading he said, "these are your words." And
2 then, of course, the second sentence says "our role was," which gives the
3 impression that these are indeed your words.
4 But further down in the bracket they say N. B. Franken says he
5 is -- now the third person is no longer the third person.
6 Are you able to tell us whether these are your words or somebody
7 is just writing this and you are also one of those people who are being
8 written about?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, it is a -- a -- how do you say that? During
10 these interviews, et cetera, there was -- notes were made and later on
11 those made -- those notes were more or less formed to a text. Whether
12 these were literally my words, I don't know, but it is the contents and
13 the intention of the words are correct.
14 Is that an answer, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: It is an answer. Thank you so much.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I have another question exactly in relation
17 to this.
18 When this text was formulated, did you have the opportunity to
19 read it later and to confirm that these words are correct?
20 THE WITNESS: This is -- sorry, again this is the 1995 debriefing
21 report. Is that correct?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is what I understood from the Defence.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Now, we didn't have the text back to verify
24 that and to put it -- a signature under it as being the correct text. We
25 did not, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] proceed,
3 Mr. Stojanovic.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. With respect to what you said, can we please look at 1D84,
6 page 387. That's actually two pages from the book entitled: "The
7 Planned Chaos," authored by Ibran Mustafic.
8 Before we look at it, let me ask you if you recall the person
9 named Ibran Mustafic?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. If I were to recall and remind you that that was a SDA deputy in
12 the Assembly of BH before the war, and who was the subject of two
13 assassination attempts in the Srebrenica enclave, does this name of
14 Ibran Mustafic now ring a bell?
15 A. No. And you say to remind me, but I can't be reminded because
16 the name doesn't say me anything, doesn't ring a bell.
17 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to read this portion and then put a
18 question to you. The English page is good. We need the last paragraph,
19 in which he says, describing the events of Potocari which he witnessed
20 himself because he was there:
21 "At that time a check-point was set up on the little bridge
22 across the Rabin creek and manned by Chetniks. Several soldiers of the
23 Dutch battalion, Nesib Mandzic, Ibro Nuhanovic and Camil were together
24 letting through and separating the people. I knew they had been in
25 Bratunac attending negotiations but I could not believe my eyes that I
1 was seeing that several Dutch soldiers were working together with the
2 Chetniks on separating people, including Nesib, Ibro and Camil."
3 Mr. Franken, these three names are the negotiators who attended
4 the meeting in the Fontana hotel on the morning of the 12th of July. One
5 of them is a signatory of the statement dated the 17th of July, 1995,
6 that you had an opportunity to see. Did you have any information that
7 could serve as a basis for the statement that you made, to the effect
8 that the Muslims had agreed that the men suspected of war crimes may be
9 interrogated under the supervision of the UNHCR and the Red Cross?
10 A. Well, the information I had about that was the debriefing of one
11 of the meetings where it was discussed and obviously General Mladic told
12 the DutchBat and the committee that he wanted to interrogate the -- the
13 able men.
14 The event described in this paragraph of that book you shown me,
15 a simple comment: No way. There's no way that Dutch soldiers were
16 actually separating men and women together with the VRS. That happened
17 always when we left the secure area we had outside our compound, by the
19 Q. Did you have any information to the effect that these three
20 negotiators were, in fact, at the check-point, in order to identify
21 individuals who were supposed to be separated and checked whether they
22 had participated in some crime or not, as it is stated in this book?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin.
24 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. Again, this may have more fairly
25 been a matter put to the individuals that are being asked about here.
1 Now earlier when my colleague was asking about DutchBat, that is a
2 witness perhaps -- that is a matter perhaps appropriate for this witness.
3 But if this -- these -- the current issue, if that has not been put
4 before, I'm not sure how much more light this witness can shed.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was
7 straightforward: Does Mr. Franken have such information about the role
8 that these three persons had in the activities to do with the
9 identification of the people who were being separated. Nothing more,
10 nothing less. So does he or doesn't he have the information?
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: The observation is overruled. [Microphone not
13 activated] you may put the question again, Mr. Stojanovic, for the
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So, Mr. Franken, I will reiterate my question.
17 Did you have any information, as it is quoted in this book, to
18 the effect that these three negotiators at any point in time took part in
19 identifying and recognising, identifying men and their separation at the
21 A. I don't have information that they took part, but I think I know
22 what event is wrongly described in this book. And to take you back, when
23 I decided to make the list of men within our security, we tried to
24 register the men outside the compound as well, so not on our base. Then
25 those three people went out to start registering the men. They were seen
1 and probably identified by the VRS, and there was a row, et cetera. The
2 effect was that the lady completely had a nervous breakdown and had to be
3 taken as a patient into the hospital. And I think that's the only event
4 wrongly described in this book that those three were together out.
5 Because after that, they didn't have the guts to get out of the gate
6 anymore so we could not register the men in the outside -- outside the
7 compound. I think he describes that event but gives the wrong
8 explanation for the people being there.
9 Is that an answer?
10 Q. Thank you. However, is it correct that there were men, both in
11 Potocari and at the compound, who refused to be registered for some
13 A. As I recollect well, within the compound, there were 60 or 70 men
14 who didn't want to be registered. I don't have numbers of men who didn't
15 want to be registered outside the compound because the effort or the
16 attempt to register them failed, as I described to you shortly before.
17 Q. How did you interpret their refusal to be registered and be, as
18 you said, given a name, an identity?
19 A. I did not. I took it for granted.
20 Q. And we can agree that this activity and this idea of yours, in
21 fact, was not well received by the refugee -- refugees, the men, who were
22 in Potocari outside the compound.
23 A. Again, I do not know, because in the -- the beginning of the
24 attempt to register them and to tell them what we wanted with it, there
25 was that incident with the VRS with the result for the lady, as
1 described, and the fact that the two men didn't have the guts anymore to
2 go outside the gate. So I don't know how many outside the compound would
3 have refused to be registered.
4 Q. But, in the end, there was never a list compiled of men who were
5 outside of the compound; is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber, please, when the separation of
8 the men from the women started? Could you give us the hour and the date,
9 as far as you know?
10 A. Seeing the fact that the evacuation started on the 12th at about
11 half past 12.00, 1230, 1300. Didn't happen on the first convoy; the end
12 of the second. So it would have been the -- the organised start of it
13 would have been around, let's say, 1400 hours. But that's an estimation.
14 Q. So, on the 12th of July, around 1400 hours, as far as you can
16 A. That's correct.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up in
18 e-court a document that we used yesterday. Unfortunately, Your Honours,
19 I think I failed to note down the D number, but the 65 ter number -- it's
20 actually a transcript dated 11th November 2002, a parliamentary
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The minutes of the parliamentary
24 commission. The 65 ter number is 19420.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: D278.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Simply
2 for some reason, I failed to note it down yesterday.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The correct 65 ter number is 19425.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. I would like to refer you to page 505 in the English. That's
6 page 505 in English. And, in B/C/S, that's page 60. 6-0.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is only three-page document.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I requested the
10 transcript of 11th November 2002, and my apologies, but that was 1D937.
11 937. My apologies. 1D937. That's a document that we used yesterday in
12 hard copy. It's -- the original is in English, and Your Honours, I
13 believe you have it before you. My apologies. I would need page 60 in
14 the B/C/S version, and in the English version, the last three digits are
16 Thank you. This is the document before us.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before you proceed, Mr. Shin, you were on
18 your feet.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. It was merely to assist my
20 colleague in identifying the correct document that he had wanted. But
21 while I'm on my feet I would just note that I believe my colleague may
22 have referred to the original being in English, but I believe the
23 original may have been in Dutch. The English is a translation as well,
24 as I understand it.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Shin.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And at the moment, we don't have this on the
2 screen. There's a different document. On the screen, I see an interview
3 with the witness dated 31st of March, 1999. But you are referring to a
4 hearing of 11th of November, 2002. Did you manage to upload it in the
5 meantime? We discussed the process of uploading. Oh, now I -- it seems
6 to be on the screen. But you need another page.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you indicate the page you need again.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's page 47 in the English,
10 in e-court. Page 47, the middle of the page. And the B/C/S page that we
11 have before us is correct.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we don't have English in e-court.
13 It's only Dutch and B/C/S uploaded in e-court.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In that sense, Your Honour, I
15 suggest that perhaps we could provide the witness the hard copy. And
16 perhaps the Trial Chamber can use the hard copy because we have not been
17 able to upload it into e-court and that's on page 505 in the hard copy
19 Q. Sir --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you provide the witness with a hard copy,
21 Mr. Stojanovic, if you have.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we did give it to
23 the witness yesterday, but I do have another copy here. And I would
24 appreciate the assistance of the Court Usher.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. In this document, in this interview before parliamentary
3 committee, you say the following:
4 "Could you tell us why you did not -- why you refused to help
5 with the evacuation?"
6 And you answer as follows:
7 "I've already described the situation the people found themselves
8 in. These were not rested and we well-fed citizens, resting before being
9 deported. When they arrived with us they were in poor condition already.
10 I could not have foreseen this. This has to do with what I had said
11 about medical assistance, sanitary conditions and similar. Mladic
12 offered the UN to carry this out themselves, but the UN said that they
13 weren't able to do that and they then gave the go-ahead to Mladic to do
14 it, and that's how it transpired. Of course, had we been able to
15 consider some other manner to ensure that these people arrived safely and
16 soundly to a safe location as soon as possible and as comfortably as
17 possible with the best possible escort, that is my answer to your
19 Mr. Franken, do you stand by what you said then in response to
20 the question put by Mrs. De Vries?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note: We do not have the
22 English version before us.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, the interpreters note that they
24 don't have a copy before them. I think it would be helpful if you gave
25 them a copy.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But do I have
2 to do it right away?
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I don't know whether you're going to read from
4 this document. If you are, yes.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, there's nothing more that I
6 will read. It was just this excerpt.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague just informed me
9 that we have actually uploaded this into e-court, the English version.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's 65 ter 19425. And there
12 is an English version --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, you called 19425 a few minutes
14 ago, which we told you was D278. You discovered that was the wrong
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should put your question to the witness and
17 deal with another document after that.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
19 Q. Mr. Franken, my question was: Do you stand by the answer that
20 you provided to the parliamentary committee on the
21 11th of November, 2002?
22 A. Yes. But just one remark, your question originally was: Why did
23 you refuse to co-operate or to assist the evacuation. That is incorrect.
24 We did not refuse. Simply we were soldiers and we got the order to
25 assist in the evacuation by the UN, so ...
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to clarify this matter, the question of
2 Ms. De Vries from this parliamentary committee was, and I quote:
3 "Can you indicate why you did not refuse to help carry out the
5 That was the question I think Mr. Stojanovic was referring to,
6 that question of this member of the parliament.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will conclude with
10 a question, and I'm referring to this excerpt.
11 Q. You said here that the UN said that they were unable to carry out
12 this evacuation so they gave the go-ahead to Mladic. When you say the
13 UN, whom do you actually refer to? Who was it who approved the
14 aforementioned evacuation?
15 A. This information I -- came to me through Colonel Karremans who
16 had the contacts in that time to BH Command in Sarajevo. He told me that
17 he said -- he asked the UN or BH Command to arrange that. They gave the
18 answer that they were not able to do so. On that occasion, they all --
19 they also said the battalion should do it himself. Probably
20 not either -- just forgetting that we didn't have any fuel to drive any
21 car. Then, in the end, it was, Okay, let the VRS do it with their means.
22 But that's information that came to me through Colonel Karremans.
23 Q. Would you agree with me that at one point in time you were asked
24 whether you could organise the evacuation with the resources that you had
25 and that it was your assessment in view of the number of vehicles that
1 you had and the number of refugees, and the very difficult humanitarian
2 situation and the difficulty of feeding all these people, the Dutch
3 battalion was, objectively speaking, unable to carry out this evacuation?
4 A. It's absolutely correct.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, we've just asked this question to
6 the witness a few minutes ago. He has answered it. You're asking it a
7 second time, in different words.
8 Can you please move on.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
10 Could we now take a look, document 65 ter 19420, and I believe
11 this is a document I mentioned earlier. That's 65 ter 19420. And if we
12 could have the B/C/S version --
13 Q. Mr. Franken, this is your statement on the
14 13th of September, 1995; statement you provided -- gave to the Dutch
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And could we have page 4 in
17 B/C/S, please, and page 4 in English, the last paragraph.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there is no B/C/s version of this
19 document in e-court, if it's 19420.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam Registrar, we couldn't hear you.
21 Could you repeat what you said.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19420 does not have a B/C/S version.
23 It's only Dutch and English.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. I will only ask you this, because you have both the Dutch and the
2 English version before you, so I'll just ask you this, Mr. Franken: In
3 this statement you say that according to the agreement on the evacuation
4 of refugees, UNPROFOR was supposed to supply the fuel --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where are you reading, sir?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4, the last paragraph in
7 English, Your Honour. The one that we have before us. And it will go
8 over to page 5, the last two lines.
9 Q. So what you said in this interview was this:
10 "The agreement on the evacuation of refugees stated that UNPROFOR
11 would supply the fuel. Whether Smith or Karremans had made this
12 arrangement, he did not know. Because there was a fuel shortage in the
13 battalion, Mladic supplied it himself initially, and there was talk on an
14 arrangement (in exchange for its use) later on. It was striking that the
15 Serbs, when the 30.000 litres were delivered in Bratunac, only took what
16 they had agreed upon and to everyone's surprise left the rest behind in
17 the fuel truck."
18 The first thing I want to ask you is this: Can you recall the
19 date when these 30.000 litres of fuel were delivered to Bratunac? What
20 day was it, and when did the VRS take over the fuel?
21 A. Just thinking the date for -- as far as your second question is,
22 the -- the fuel truck was stopped at OP-Papa and I was informed he was
23 there. And the VRS said, Okay, we are entitled to a part of that and I
24 agreed to that, sent an officer along, and they exactly took out what was
25 agreed upon, what I believe is 27.000 litres. The date will have been,
1 if I recollect well, 16th of July, but that is without guarantee. As far
2 as I recollect, this was the 16th.
3 Q. Thank you. Now this fact that the fuel that was supplied for the
4 vehicles for the evacuation was supposed to be supplied through UNPROFOR,
5 that was the result of agreement between General Mladic and
6 General Smith; is that correct?
7 A. As I stated before, I don't know between which persons that
8 agreement was. The only thing I know that I -- through Colonel
9 Karremans, I got the order to supply the -- a -- applicable amount of
10 diesel to the VRS concerning the diesel consumption during the evacuation
11 performed by the VRS.
12 Q. Would it be correct to say that the decision on the evacuation
13 was taken at UNPROFOR level and that the implementation of the decision
14 was by the VRS because the Dutch battalion did not have the resources to
15 carry it out?
16 A. I don't know whether that decision was a decision of -- thought
17 of by UNPROFOR itself or being the only possible decision seeing the
18 situation and the fact that the implementation, the actual transport of
19 the refugee -- sorry, of the population to the Kladanj area is correct.
20 That -- that was with the VRS.
21 Q. Thank you. And now I would like us to take a look together at
22 P1166. That is the agreement between General Smith and General Mladic
23 that you've already testified about.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And I just need your
25 instruction, Your Honour, whether I should go on with this after the
1 break or can I go on before the break with the questions that relate to
2 this document. And I believe after the break I will need about 15
3 minutes to wrap up.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, didn't you indicate that you need
5 only an hour today?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But I believe
7 I will need an additional 15 minutes or so. And that is still within the
8 three hours that I originally requested. I was mistaken yesterday when I
9 thought that I would finish in an hour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. Then we will take a
11 break and maybe you must continue after the break.
12 May the witness please be escorted out.
13 We'll come back in 20 minutes' time, Mr. Franken.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break at come back at ten to 11.00.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Sorry. May the witness
21 please be escorted into the courtroom, I said.
22 And while we're waiting for the witness, Mr. Lukic, are you able
23 to answer that question that we asked.
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I think my learned friend Mr. McCloskey
25 is with us to clarify the thing.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but the Chamber needs your response.
2 MR. LUKIC: My response.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Unless Mr. McCloskey has got your brief.
4 MR. LUKIC: My response is that there is some, I think,
5 misunderstanding whether it is 92 bis or 92 ter.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. You talk with Mr. McCloskey and come back
7 to us later.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we did have a chance to talk about
12 it and cleared up the issue, and I can either do that now or after the
13 witness is done.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suggest you do that after the witness is done.
15 Thank you so much, Mr. McCloskey.
16 Mr. Stojanovic, the witness is yours.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Franken, I believe that we have General Smith and
19 General Mladic's agreement before us. And I would like to ask you if you
20 had an opportunity to see this agreement before?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Is that the document that you made reference to in your statement
23 as serving as the basis for your activities in those days in Potocari?
24 A. Well, not as the basis, because my -- our role concerning the
25 evacuation was before, but afterwards it was a -- yeah, what you say, a
1 consent in our acting. Yes, it's correct.
2 Q. In view of your answers that I saw in the draft transcript on the
3 page 22 and the last four lines on 21, let me ask you once again: After
4 having seen this agreement, to the best of your recollection, at what
5 level, or, rather, where exactly the decision was made to proceed with
6 the evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari?
7 A. Well, it -- it looks logical that it was done between BH Command
8 and General Mladic, that the decision was made there, as I stated more or
9 less before.
10 Q. And, according to the statement quoted that you stand by in its
11 entirety, you said that it was offered to Mladic to do it themselves
12 because the UN said that they didn't have the capacity and then gave
13 consent for Mladic to undertake that, were you referring to General Smith
14 specifically, or were you referring to any other UN institution instead?
15 A. I believe I stated that before. This information I got through
16 Colonel Karremans, and what his source was exactly, I do not know of.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you.
18 Can we please just take a look and comment one portion of your
19 statement of 31st of March, 1999. That's D278. Paragraph 30 in both the
20 B/C/S and English versions.
21 And while we are waiting for it to be uploaded --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there's only Dutch and English
23 versions of this document.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct. Thank you. I
25 would appreciate if we can have both versions for the benefit of the
2 Q. My question is: Mr. Franken, would it be consistent with the
3 rules that in case of POWs, during war time, as the case was in
4 Srebrenica, indeed, would it be necessary and possible to carry out the
5 procedure of screening in order to detect whether amongst them were the
6 people suspected of war crimes?
7 A. Well, the normal procedure is when you have, as I stated before,
8 if you have a big group of potential prisoners or people in war time, you
9 start dividing them in civilians and military, and you separate them.
10 The aspect of war crimes is in that procedure not mentioned, so that is
11 not completely correct. The -- dividing the group into men and women and
12 children and elderly men, et cetera, is normal, it's normal procedure.
13 That's what we learned our soldiers as well. But the aspect of war
14 crimes doesn't have a role in that procedure.
15 Q. In paragraph 30 that you can see before you, it is said:
16 "When the men and women were separated, Franken challenged the
17 commander in question ... but he invoked the Geneva Conventions with
18 regard to treatment of prisoner of war. Franken asked us, 'What was I
19 supposed to do?' The Serb promised to treat the ABiH soldiers in
20 accordance with the Geneva Conventions, and thereby, in fact, complying
21 with normal obligations."
22 Your previous answer, does it correspond to what you said in
23 paragraph 30?
24 A. Yes, that is consistent with each other. Yes.
25 Q. So the initial step in separating the able-bodied men from the
1 whole crowd of population would not basically constitute anything
2 disputable, from the point of view of the Geneva Conventions.
3 A. Correct. It is a variation on the theme because normally you
4 separated the uniformed, the combatants, recognisable combatants from the
5 group. In this case, it is a variation because all able-bodied men could
6 have been combatant. So it is not -- there's nothing wrong with that
7 procedure in itself.
8 Q. Thank you. And I will finish with one question.
9 Yesterday, you will remember being shown a photograph that
10 confirmed your recollection that the personal belongings that had been
11 left in front of the white house were set on fire. Now I'm asking you:
12 Do you remember that among these personal belongings, weapons,
13 ammunitions were found and that there were detonations during the process
14 of setting them on fire?
15 A. Whether anything was found between those belongings, I do not
16 know of. I know that there were some -- some bangs when they were set on
17 fire, some explosions as you say it. But it doesn't mean that it was
19 Q. Were you able to decide what caused the explosions when these
20 things were set on fire?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And I will finish with the document that you talked about during
23 examination-in-chief, specifically the list of men who were in the -- the
24 UNPROFOR base.
25 Can you tell the Trial Chamber to whom was this list forwarded
1 and has it ever arrived to the recipient that you intended to send it to?
2 A. The list was forwarded to HQ sector north-east Tuzla BH Command,
3 Sarajevo, the Dutch Crisis Staff that was an element of the Dutch
4 commanding -- General Staff here in Holland. And, no, that was it, those
5 three addressees.
6 I know that, in fact, it was received here in Holland because
7 when I was back in Holland quite some time, it was reproduced from some
8 bureau here in the General Staff office. Whether it really came to Tuzla
9 or BH Command, I do not know of. I did not get a -- from any officer, or
10 what, a receipt or confirmation of the receipt of that passage.
11 Q. According to your estimate, how many able-bodied men in the
12 course of these two days were separated from this crowd of refugees?
13 A. As you know, we made an estimate -- we knew pretty good how many
14 men there were within the compound. There was an estimation of the men
15 outside the compound, and that total is, if I recollect well, an amount
16 of about 1.000 able-bodied men, and they were separated, with one
17 exception: First convoy.
18 Q. I've been asked to put just one more question to you,
19 Mr. Franken. Do you know that in the area where the crash of the
20 helicopter took place, which is the general area of Zlovrh and Brloske
21 mountains, do you know if two bodies were buried there which remained on
22 the location after your departure?
23 Do you have any information about that and who these individuals
24 were, these two bodies?
25 A. On both questions, no. I did not have the information so I
1 didn't know or had any information about the identity of the -- of the
2 victims, of the bodies.
3 Q. Mr. Franken, thank you for your answers.
4 A. You're welcome.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, before you sit down, Exhibit D278
6 has only the Dutch -- Dutch original and English translation. There's no
7 B/C/S translation. Are we likely to get that?
8 I see Mr. Shin is standing up.
9 Yes, Mr. Shin.
10 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. If we could assist, there does
11 exist a B/C/S translation. We have already undertaken steps under the
12 guidance of Ms. Stewart to get that uploaded, and we will be able to
13 inform you as soon as that has been done.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Please do so. Thank you
15 very much, Mr. --
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you and thanks to my
17 learned friend.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any re-examination, Mr. Shin?
19 MR. SHIN: Yes, just brief. I will be less than ten minutes.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you start, I would like to put two
21 follow-up questions to the last topics, one of the last topics mentioned
22 by Mr. Stojanovic.
23 Mr. Franken, you gave us an indication about 1.000 able bodied
24 men separated from the other population. These 1.000 were they inside of
25 the compound or outside? Or both together?
1 THE WITNESS: It is together, Your Honour. There were about 300
2 within the compound. We knew that of -- trying to compose that list you
3 know about, and the number on the outside was estimated in the crowd.
4 Just an estimation, so many men, approximately.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Approximately 700 --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 6- to 700 was the estimation.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My last question relates again to the pile of
8 bags and other belongings set on fire. Did anybody tell you why these
9 things were set on fire?
10 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I remember that one of my officers asked
11 a Serb officer and didn't get an answer.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
14 Mr. Shin.
15 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour. I would just begin with an update
16 on my last remarks on D278. The B/C/S translation is now uploaded, so
17 that is available in e-court.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Shin.
19 MR. SHIN: And --
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, will you please attach that
22 translation, the B/C/S translation, to the exhibit.
23 Yes, Mr. Shin.
24 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour. And just one -- I would just point
25 Your Honours to paragraph 112 of the statement of this witness where he
1 addresses -- I'm sorry, 113 where he addresses the breakdown of men
2 inside the compound and outside. I'm sorry, the statement does have a P
3 number now as I'm correctly reminded. It's P1417. It is the amalgamated
4 statement and just to assist Your Honours with that last question.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. SHIN: If I may proceed.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Shin:
10 Q. Colonel Franken, if I could begin first with the document we just
11 had on the screen a minute ago; this is D278. My -- my colleague,
12 Mr. Stojanovic had asked you -- had read out to you paragraph 30
13 regarding the separation of men and women. We also see there a specific
14 list says:
15 "Franken challenged the commander in question."
16 Just so that the picture is clear for this Trial Chamber, can you
17 recall who this commander in question was and you may wish to refer to
18 paragraphs -- the two paragraphs above that, 28 and 29. You may want to
19 read that to refresh your recollection, if necessary.
20 If I could please have the page 3 -- I'm sorry, page 2 in
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's on the screen.
23 MR. SHIN: Yes, thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: Please let me read it first.
25 Yes. The person is indeed Colonel Jankovic.
1 MR. SHIN:
2 Q. And Colonel Jankovic in paragraph 28 -- I'm sorry, paragraph 28
3 here, you refer to him as "assistant of Mladic." To the best of your
4 knowledge what was his -- his position?
5 A. His position within the organisation of the VRS I do not know of.
6 He indicated that he was General Staff officer from -- as I recollect, he
7 used the word Supreme Command. And he is -- his job was to prepare and
8 to co-ordinate the withdrawal of DutchBat itself and he was not involved
9 in the evacuation.
10 Q. And just so we're clear, when you explain just now what his job
11 was, was that something he told you?
12 A. That is what he indicated himself, what he told me, yes.
13 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to 65 ter 19420.
14 Sir, you'll recognise this document because you've just been
15 asked questions about it by my colleague Mr. Stojanovic. And I'd just
16 like to clarify one point in the paragraph read about the fuel; this is
17 page 4 on the English. And perhaps we'll take a moment to wait for it to
18 come up on the screen. And you'll see in the lower half of that English
19 page the area where you've been asked questions. Now, just before the
20 quote, let me ask this: I just wanted to clarify the -- the fuel in
21 question here this is fuel that UNPROFOR is providing to the Serbs; is
22 that right?
23 A. Well, originally that amount of fuel, as far as I know, came for
24 DutchBat. It was stopped by the Serbs in the direct vicinity of OP-Papa
25 yellow bridge, then I was informed that the fuel was there and they
1 wanted their share of it.
2 Q. Okay. So if we look at just the provision at the first line of
3 the last paragraph which is the line just preceding what Mr. Stojanovic
4 had read, it states here:
5 "Franken stated the following with regard to the diesel provided
6 to the Serbs ..."
7 So given -- with the background that you've just provided at this
8 particular instance, this is regarding diesel that is being delivered in
9 Bratunac to the Serbs; is that right?
10 A. Yeah, from Papa the -- I ordered an officer to go with that truck
11 and they were brought to Bratunac where it was pumped into tanks of the
13 Q. And one additional question here. You state that "to everyone's
14 surprise" the rest of the fuel had been left. Why was it to everyone's
16 A. Yeah, well, that -- that is not on facts but a question of
17 feeling. We thought really because there has been experience with the --
18 denying fuel, et cetera, et cetera, now there came fuel. They said we
19 want our part and I was indeed surprised. It is a feeling that there
20 came back about 3.000 litres being exactly the difference between the
21 amounts they could demand, being 27.000 litres, and what was in the
22 truck. And I was surprised, just a feeling, not on facts or not seeing
23 the history of -- of -- of -- of denying diesel and things vanishing from
24 convoys coming in, et cetera, we were surprised that the 3.000 litres
25 were actually left and came to DutchBat --
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution would tender
3 65 ter 19420 into evidence.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many pages is that, Mr. Shin?
5 MR. SHIN: I believe that it is -- in the English, anyway, it's a
6 total of 23 pages, although several of the pages at the end are
7 attachments. So we could -- we could tender pages 1 through 14 in the
8 English which are the statement itself. The rest are attachments.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin, only one page has been referred to in
12 this statement and that page -- whatever came from that page has been
13 read into the record. Do we really have to admit 14 pages that have
14 never been talked about at all?
15 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, if -- this is the only document used by
16 the Defence with this witness to challenge him that has not been tendered
17 by the Defence. So we would take the position that it would be fair
18 given some issues of memory recollection that a statement from the
19 13th of September, 1995, may assist the Trial Chamber in assessing the
20 credibility of the witness, not necessarily those other pages for the
21 substance contained therein but to assess the credibility.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Read 13 pages to assess the credibility of the
23 witness on one page.
24 MR. SHIN: It does cover other aspects of the witness's evidence.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the Chamber will order that only this page
1 be admitted, I think.
2 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, may I ask a couple of more questions
3 about this document to the witness in case -- to establish a foundation
4 should the Prosecution seek to tender this document at a later point.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] you may proceed,
6 Mr. Shin. Sorry, apparently my microphone was not activated.
7 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Colonel Franken, you will recall that this document as has been
9 earlier discussed was from the 13th of September, 1995. Would your
10 memory of some of the events talked -- discussed therein have been more
11 clear at that point than it is now?
12 A. Yeah, well, that's almost human. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And have you had a chance to review the materials -- I'm sorry,
14 this document itself after it was prepared?
15 A. This is the debriefing in September 1995. No, we were not.
16 Q. If I could perhaps refresh your mind as to one thing, if I could
17 turn to page 13 of the English, at the bottom. And -- yes.
18 At the very bottom we see there that -- well, I won't read the
19 whole thing, but it states that you signed it as correct. Is that
20 correct that -- would that be right that you signed this?
21 A. Well, in my recollection I did not. But it says here I did.
22 Well, we had that many debriefings, reviews and things that obviously I
24 Q. And just --
25 A. I see it. I did.
1 Q. Yes. Just to be clear, on the left we do see the original. That
2 is your signature; is that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I would seek leave ... if I may, I would
5 seek leave to re-open the direct simply for one question.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Shin.
7 MR. SHIN: Thank you. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why to re-open direct? Why can't you just put the
10 MR. SHIN: I -- I am formally asking to re-open the direct just
11 for this one question because it is probably not one that has been
12 triggered by the cross-examination, but it does relate to this document.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Carry on.
14 MR. SHIN: If you could please give me one minute, Your Honours.
15 If I could please have page 12 of this in the English put up on
16 the screen.
17 Examination by Mr. Shin: [Continued]
18 Q. There in the first -- in the upper half of the paragraph,
19 Colonel Franken, we will see about six lines, seven lines down there's a
20 sentence that begins -- I'm sorry, six lines down:
21 "In the process fighting was alleged to have broken out with the
22 BSA around the Bratunac-Konjevici road. This was confirmed by the BSA
23 which made reports of about 6.000 prisoner of war."
24 Would that reference to the 6.000 prisoners of war, would that be
25 the reference that you had discussed earlier regarding what
1 Colonel Jankovic had told you?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Thank you. I would now like to turn to a matter that -- that the
4 Defence counsel asked you about, both at the end of yesterday as well
5 as --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before --
7 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: On a matter of procedure, Mr. Shin, you've asked
9 your one question on direct. Are you resting on direct? Are you going
10 back to re-examination?
11 MR. SHIN: Yes, you're absolutely right. My apologies for that,
12 for not being clear. I am returning to re-direct.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Before you do so, Mr. Stojanovic, does
14 the -- does the Defence have any questions arising from the one question
15 that Mr. Shin just asked?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, but we do have
19 questions that arises from His Honour Judge Fluegge's question.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 Yes, Mr. Shin, may proceed with your re-examination.
22 MR. SHIN: Yes, and I'm coming to a close very soon.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Shin [Continued]
24 Q. Colonel Franken, both at the end of the session yesterday and
25 starting today you were shown video-clips of a meeting in the
1 Hotel Fontana, and you were specifically asked about UNPROFOR as being an
2 objective of the VRS.
3 Now, as was discussed, that meeting was occurring on the evening
4 of the 11th of July. On 12th and 13th July, what -- on the 12th or 13th
5 of July, can you just remind the Trial Chamber briefly about what
6 happened to the -- what happened to the UNPROFOR escorts, the DutchBat
7 escorts that you had ordered both in the buses and trucks going towards
8 Kladanj as well as the buses going towards Bratunac with the men.
9 A. As far as --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Franken.
11 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This question does not arise
13 from the cross-examination. I never broached this topic to do with
14 members of the DutchBat on the transports, on the convoys.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin, any response to the objection?
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours.
17 We would -- we would submit that the actions that were taken on
18 the 12th and 13th did in fact target DutchBat in -- the witness can
19 explain better why, although there has been evidence as to what has
20 happened, what would happen to those escorts.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic, please take a seat. Mr. Mladic.
23 Mr. Mladic, please sit down. Thank you.
24 Sorry, Mr. Shin. You're making --
25 MR. SHIN: Yes, if I may just recapitulate very briefly.
1 We would submit that the actions taken against UNPROFOR escorts
2 on 12th and 13th do relate to this issue of whether UNPROFOR was an
3 objective of the VRS.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Has Mr. Franken not testified on those issues
5 actually in-chief? I thought I remembered him testifying on those
7 MR. SHIN: Yes --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: As a result, you're asking him to remind the
10 MR. SHIN: Yes. I was merely seeking to put some of those
11 answers in the proper context, but with the exchange we've had just now
12 I'm prepared to move on.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You may move on.
14 MR. SHIN: Okay, and -- on -- the next issue is just one of a
15 clarification. It may have been a transcription issue on yesterday's
16 testimony, Mr. Franken.
17 And, Your Honours, I'm referring to transcript page 10740, lines
18 4 through 9.
19 Q. Colonel Franken you may recall I was asking you about the crew of
20 OP Alpha and you were explaining the -- the path that they had taken
21 back. You described that it was "a route from a military area to
23 And I believe you had actually said the Milici area to Bratunac.
24 Would that be correct?
25 A. Yes, from Milici to Bratunac, that's correct.
1 Q. Okay, thank you.
2 MR. SHIN: And finally, Your Honours, I believe we had not -- we
3 dealt -- we finished dealing with 65 ter 19420. There is the page that
4 both Mr. Stojanovic and I had addressed and also the second page which is
5 English page 12 ERN R0184291. We would tender those two pages into
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: The first page has been -- you referred to page 13
8 when you asked your next question, not page 12, unless you misspoke.
9 MR. SHIN: I may have misspoke. We asked for page 12 and we
10 actually did have page 12. I read from page 12, at least in English.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. The pages are admitted into evidence.
12 Madam Registrar, may they please be given an exhibit number.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Shin, they will have to be uploaded as a
15 separate exhibit.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours. And in fact Ms. Stewart had
17 already anticipated the issue and we'll upload them with the
18 sub-numbering A after the 65 ter number.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Upon that happening, Madam Registrar, may
20 you please give them an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, once uploaded document 19420A
22 receives number P1426.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
24 Yes, Mr. Shin.
25 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, that completes my questions. But,
1 of course, I have associated exhibits which may come after other
2 questions have been dealt with.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, you indicated that you have a question arising,
5 or questions arising from Judge Fluegge's questions.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And that is
7 the question that had to do with the personal effects, if you allow me.
8 Could we see 65 ter 19418, please. 19418.
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
10 Q. Mr. Franken, this is your statement to the Royal Dutch Army. And
11 I would request page 2 in B/C/S, page 2 in English as well of this
13 And, if you recall, I asked -- I asked you about the setting the
14 personal effects on fire and the reasons why that was done -- why that
15 was done and that was what Judge Fluegge asked you about. But let me
16 first ask you whether this helps you recollect the events. If you look
17 at the English page in the middle approximately of the page, it says:
18 "After the refugees were taken away, Serbians wearing blue
19 uniforms set fire to the personal property that laid strewn around the
20 house causing a substantial quantity of small-calibre ammunition to
21 explode. The witness received the report stating that a number of
22 weapons had been found after the refugees' departure."
23 Now, let me ask you: Does this help refresh your memory, this
24 part of the statement, about what the situation was like relating to the
25 weapons and the ammunition as you wrote about it then?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, I didn't ask the witness about
2 ammunition. I only asked the witness if he heard from anybody what the
3 reason was that these personal belongings were set on fire. I didn't
4 deal with ammunition at all. Just to make that clear. You should limit
5 your question to that.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, if you
7 allow me to put a question, I will; if not, that, of course, would be
8 your decision. But here it says that because of the --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Well, it's a question that must arise from
10 Judge Fluegge's question.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you think that I should not
12 put the -- this question, I withdraw it.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 Mr. Franken, that brings us to the end of your testimony. The
15 Chamber would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for
16 coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now excused. You may travel
17 safely back home.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: I know you don't have far to travel, but, still,
20 travel safely.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who do I call on, Mr. McCloskey or Madam D'Ascoli
25 or Mr. Shin?
1 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Your Honours, to -- I don't mean to -- to
2 step in front of my -- my -- Mr. McCloskey. I just wanted to address the
3 issue of the associated exhibits.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Yes, indeed go ahead.
5 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, at this point as I had indicated earlier
6 several of these have already been admitted into evidence, so we have
7 seven remaining and one that I would just explain briefly.
8 Maybe I'll take the explanation first. We originally had as an
9 associated exhibit 65 ter 18739 which is this July 17th declaration or
10 statement. That has actually -- the identical document has been admitted
11 already into evidence as P1138. And that was the document I used in
12 court, so if we could simply indicate on the record here that in the
13 witness's amalgamated statement in paragraph 105 where he discusses that
14 document, it is indeed P1138. That might suffice.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] 65 ter 18739 has
16 already been admitted as 1138.
17 MR. SHIN: Yes. It had a different description but it's the same
18 document or same -- since there are several language versions.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Same document, and it came out of the different
20 65 ter number.
21 MR. SHIN: Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 And then if I may take the remainder in order.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
1 MR. SHIN: 65 ter 05279.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not ... 05279? Is it -- I don't see it on
3 your list, sir.
4 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, it's on -- I'm told it's on the second page
5 of the list.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I've looked at the second page, sir. I don't see
8 Mr. Shin, there are two different lists, and I'm just being
9 handed a list by Madam Registrar which I didn't have in my papers,
10 neither does Judge Fluegge have a copy.
11 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: So I suppose we're dealing now with the 5279, yes,
14 Madam Registrar, can we give that a number, please.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05279 receives number P1427,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 Yes, Mr. Shin.
19 MR. SHIN: Yes. The next one is 65 ter 04786.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Yes, 04786.
22 Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04786 receives number P1428,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 Yes, Mr. Shin.
2 MR. SHIN: Next one is 65 ter 13750.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: 13750. Yes.
4 Yes, Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 13750 receives number P1429,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
8 MR. SHIN: 17864.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17864 receives number P1430,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
13 Yes, Mr. Shin.
14 MR. SHIN: 04408.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: 04408.
16 Yes, Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04408 receives number P1431,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
20 MR. SHIN: 04460.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
22 Yes, Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04460 receives number P1432,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Shin.
1 MR. SHIN: And the last document is 65 ter 05221.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05221 receives number P1433,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, my apologies for taking them in the
7 order in which they appeared in the statement that was different from the
8 order in the list itself, which may have caused the confusion.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's fine.
10 They started with 1431, I suppose -- no, 1428. P1428, P1431,
11 P1432 up to P1 -- P1427 up to 1433 are all admitted into evidence.
12 Thank you so much.
13 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,
15 everyone. I have had a chance to speak with Mr. Lukic and
16 Mr. Stojanovic, and I think we now can clear up the -- the issue of the
17 swap as Judge Orie rightly put it. If I could go into private session, I
18 think it would be better.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 10845-10846 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. Just want to make a correction
23 on the record with regard to Exhibit P1423. Yesterday 65 ter number 5142
24 received exhibit P1423. While this is accurately recorded in e-court,
25 the transcript has a reference to P1432 being admitted into evidence. It
1 should refer instead to P1423 being admitted.
2 Thank you so much.
3 We -- yes, Mr. Groome.
4 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just in relation to the matter that was
5 dealt with in private session I seek permission to inform the provider of
6 what has transpired by providing a copy of the transcript to the provider
7 as was the practice earlier on this issue.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Absolutely. You may do so, sir.
9 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: We're only three minutes to a break. I suppose
11 Madam D'Ascoli agrees with me before I've said anything, so --
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I think it is wise to take the break now,
13 Your Honours, also because the witness has protective measures, so it
14 might take some time to set them up. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. We'll take a break and come back at ten
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
21 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 Good afternoon, Witness. May you please make the declaration. A
8 copy of it is being presented to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: RM314
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
14 Before I hand you over to the Prosecution counsel, just wanted to
15 tell you that the Chamber is aware that you are testifying under
16 protective measures of a pseudonym and image distortion. You go by
17 the -- in this trial, you'll go by the name RM314, so we will call you
18 Witness RM314 and not your name, okay? And, of course, people outside
19 the court will not see your face.
20 You'll first be examined by Madam D'Ascoli, who is Prosecution's
21 attorney. She is on your right.
22 Madam D'Ascoli.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:
25 Q. And good afternoon, Witness. Can I please have 65 ter 28861 not
1 for public broadcast, please.
2 Sir, I will show you a document which contains personal
3 information related to you. Please do not read out loud this
4 information. But once you can see the document displayed on the screen,
5 can you please have a look at it, and tell us whether can you confirm
6 that what you see on this page is your name and date of birth. And
7 please do not repeat any of them.
8 A. Yes, it's correct.
9 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honour, I tender this pseudonym sheet into
10 evidence under seal. 65 ter 28861, please.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 Mr. Lukic. No object -- Mr. Ivetic. I'm so sorry.
13 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, it is admitted into evidence.
15 May it please be given an exhibit number.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28861 receives number P1434,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours, can I now call up 65 ter 28858
21 and again, please, not for public broadcast.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam D'Ascoli, before we call that, P1434 is
23 under seal?
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, it is, Your Honour, thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. And you're calling for 28858.
1 MS. D'ASCOLI: Exactly, not for public broadcast, please.
2 Q. Sir, do you remember providing a statement to this Tribunal on
3 16 August 1995?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Now can you see the document on the screen. Can you have a look
6 at the very first page of the English document which is the original and
7 in particular the signature at the bottom of the page. Do you recognise
8 the signature, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that your signature?
11 A. Yes.
12 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now have 65 ter 28859 on the screens,
13 please, again not for public broadcast.
14 Q. Sir, the second document is going to appear on the screen is a
15 one-page additional statement dated 8 June 1999. Do you remember
16 providing this statement to this Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And again, I will ask you whether you recognise the signature at
19 the bottom of this page in the English, which is the original of the
21 A. Yes, that's my signature.
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: I will now call up the third and last statement,
23 which is 65 ter 28860, again not for public broadcast.
24 Q. Sir, this third statement is a statement given to this Tribunal,
25 again on 14 June 1999 to clarify some parts of your previous statement of
1 16 August 1995. Now, do you remember providing this third statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you recognise the signature at the bottom of the page of
4 the English version?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that your signature?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Sir, considering these three statements, did you have the
9 opportunity to read and review them in preparation for your appearance
11 A. Yes, I did have this opportunity.
12 Q. Are you satisfied that these three statements are an accurate
13 record of what you experienced as -- to the best of my recollection, of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If you were asked today the same questions that you were asked
17 when you provided these three statements, would you give the same answers
18 and provide the same information, in substance?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Sir, now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you
21 affirm that you provided the information in those statements in
22 accordance with the truth?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders these three
25 statements, 65 ter 28858, 28859, and 28860, pursuant to Rule 92 ter and
1 all of them under seal.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, the Defence first stands by the
3 objections in our written response, a filing dated 9 April 2013, which
4 was filed confidentially, so I will not repeat the grounds set forth
5 herein. And in addition we believe that as to number 28858, that is
6 neither reliable nor appropriate under Rule 92 ter given that portions of
7 it have been repudiated as being untrue by this witness in another
8 proceeding before the ICTY. Therefore I would ask for it to be MFI'd so
9 that we may highlight these issues in cross-examination and have the
10 Chamber decide into due course.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Thank you so much. We'll MFI all of them
12 in the meantime.
13 Madam Registrar, 28858.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Receives P1435, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, MFI'd.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28859 receives number P1436,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, MFI'd.
19 THE REGISTRAR: And document 28860 receives number P1437,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal, MFI'd.
22 Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.
23 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours, with the Chamber's permission I
24 will now briefly summarise RM314's written evidence for the public and
25 the record.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you did explain to the witness [Overlapping
2 speakers] ...
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: [Overlapping speakers] ... I did, Your Honours,
5 JUGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI:
7 The witness is a Bosnian Muslim who was in Srebrenica in
8 July 1995. As Bosnian Serb forces began entering Srebrenica on
9 11 July 1995, the witness joined the column of Muslim men fleeing the
10 Srebrenica enclave and heading towards Muslim-held territory.
11 On 13 July 1995, in the early morning hours, the witness was
12 captured by Bosnian Serb police and transferred to the custody of
13 officers at the MUP check-point in Konjevic Polje. He was beaten and
14 mistreated together with other Muslim prisoners.
15 Later that morning, the witness and other Muslim prisoners were
16 ordered to board a bus and were taken a few kilometres up the road
17 towards Zvornik. The prisoners were then ordered off the bus marched
18 down an embankment, forced to line up on the banks of the Jadar river and
19 shot by Bosnian Serb soldiers. The entire group of prisoners was
21 This witness was shot, fell into the river, was taken down by the
22 stream and managed to survive. He eventually joined another group of
23 fleeing Muslims and reached Muslim-held territory.
24 That concludes the summary of the witness's evidence, Your
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam D'Ascoli. You may
2 proceed with your questions.
3 MS. D'ASCOLI: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Sir, now that I have summarised your written evidence I'm going
5 to ask a few additional questions.
6 MS. D'ASCOLI: First of all, can I call up Exhibit P1132 and can
7 I please have e-court page 49 on the screens.
8 Q. Sir, while this document is appearing on the screens, I want to
9 move directly to the events of the early morning of 13 July 1995 around
10 5.00 a.m. when you were around Konjevic Polje and, for the record, this
11 is at page 2 of the English of the 16 August 1995 statement which now has
12 the MFI number P1435.
13 So you describe page 3 of this statement how a number of
14 policemen saw you, told you --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. D'Ascoli, at the moment we have a photograph
16 on the screen. Is that correct?
17 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours, yes. I call it before because
18 generally it takes some time to load up. So that's why.
19 Q. So, sir, you describe how a number of policemen saw you on that
20 morning, told you to surrender and then brought you first to a guard
22 Sir, can you please look at the photographs on the screens. Do
23 you recognise these buildings?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters. Thank
25 you very much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the outbuilding next
2 to the school where we were taken after being captured.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam D'Ascoli, I guess you heard the
4 interpreters' request?
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, I did, Your Honours. I will slow down.
6 Q. So, sir, you said that you recognised this building. So the
7 outbuilding next to the school where you were taken after being captured.
8 So is the first building on the foreground of the photo, the one
9 that we see on the left-hand side of the photo, the little brick house,
10 is that the guard house where you were initially brought by the
12 A. Yes. I found two civilians already there, two civilians who had
13 been captured before me.
14 Q. Okay. Sir, the last place where you were taken that same morning
15 before being put on bus was a warehouse, and you say next to the
16 intersection called Konjevic Polje. This is at page 5 of your
17 16 August 1995 statement.
18 Can I call up 65 ter 04884.
19 And when the photographs comes -- appears on the screen, sir, I
20 will ask you to have a look at this photograph and tell us whether you're
21 familiar with what is depicted in it. Now we can see the photographs on
22 the screen.
23 A. This ask an intersection in Konjevic Polje, and there's a
24 warehouse next to the river.
25 Q. Is that the warehouse where you were brought?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And I understand this is the -- is this the intersection called
3 the Konjevic Polje you referred to in your statement?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And for the record so that's it clear, sir, am I correct that the
6 warehouse you're referring to is the white building that we see on a band
7 of the -- of the road, of the main road, towards the left of the
8 photograph next to the river?
9 A. Yes, that's the warehouse.
10 Q. And in order to go to that warehouse, to that warehouse, you were
11 taken, I understand from your evidence, down the straight road that
12 starts from the very right of the photographs and lead to the
13 intersection where the main road bends; is that correct? Were you taken
14 along that road to reach the warehouse?
15 A. Yes, that is correct. One cannot see the house where we had been
16 before we were taken to the warehouse. We were taken from the direction
17 of Bratunac to the warehouse.
18 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I would tender these photographs.
19 If you believe that it is to be marked for the sake of clarity, I could
20 have the witness mark it but try to describe it as best as I could.
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: 04884 is admitted into evidence. May it please be
23 given an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P1438, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
1 Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli.
2 MS. D'ASCOLI: Yes, Your Honours.
3 Q. Sir, later that same morning of 13 July 1995, you and other
4 detainees in the warehouse were ordered to get on a bus. For the record,
5 this is at page 6 of your 16 of August 1995 statement.
6 Now, do you remember how many detainees in total boarded the bus?
7 A. There were exactly 15 of them, and I was the 16th.
8 Q. And what was their ethnicity?
9 A. All of them were Muslim.
10 Q. Did any of the officers or soldiers that you mention in your
11 statement with regard to this incident, did any of them get on the bus?
12 A. Yes. Four soldiers boarded the bus who had been with us in the
13 warehouse the whole time. And there was a woman who drove the bus.
14 Q. And were these the same soldiers that were beating you and the
15 other detainees in the warehouse while you were in the warehouse?
16 A. Yes, those were the same soldiers.
17 Q. Sir, after a short drive you were then ordered to get out, to get
18 off the bus, at the place that you call in your statement Podkuslat. For
19 the record, this is again page 6 of the same statement.
20 Did all of the Muslim detainees got off the bus and were lined up
21 on the road and then down the embankment?
22 A. Yes, that is correct. We were ordered to get off the bus and
23 then they lined us up on the asphalt road next to the rail. One of them
24 said, No, this is not the good place. Take them down to the river. And
25 that's where we went and we were lined up again.
1 Q. Was -- you mentioned in your statement at some point a young boy
2 around 14 or 15 years old that was brought to one of the buildings where
3 you were detained before going to the warehouse. My question is: Was
4 this young boy also among these 16 Muslim detainees?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. He was with us as well.
6 Q. Now, did the four soldiers that were on the bus with you, did
7 they get off as well?
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. And was it these four soldiers that opened fire on you and the
10 other Muslim detainees?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. I won't go into the details of what happened, as we have this in
13 the statement. Can I just ask you to tell us at what time approximately
14 this execution occurred by the banks of the Jadar river?
15 A. That happened in the morning, all the way through until 10.00 or
17 Q. Of course we're talking about the same morning, the
18 13th of July, 1995; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now have on the screen, 65 ter 04745. For
21 the record, Your Honours, this map was used with the witness during his
22 testimony in Krstic on -- the 23rd of May, 2000, and was in that case
23 Exhibit P176.
24 Q. Sir, do you remember looking at this map during your testimony in
25 the Krstic case?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And can you tell us what the yellow dot represents?
3 A. The yellow dot represents the execution site.
4 Q. So is this the place you called Podkuslat, a canyon, in your
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 04745 into evidence
8 as a public exhibit.
9 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Admitted into evidence. May it please be given an
11 exhibit number, Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04745 receives number P1439,
13 Your Honours.
14 MS. D'ASCOLI: Can I now call up 65 ter 05165. Not for public
15 display, please.
16 Q. Sir, you were wounded in your side; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sir, do you remember this photo?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, this is a Polaroid photo of the
21 witness. This was taken in May 2000 before his testimony in -- in the
22 Krstic case as well. This is also recorded in that transcript, in the
23 Krstic transcript of 23 May -- transcript page 3280.
24 Q. Sir, looking at this photograph, can you describe where the entry
25 point of your -- of the wound is and where the exit point is of the
1 wound. You can use directions, saying right, left.
2 A. From the right side to the left.
3 Q. So can you tell us, the sign, the mark that we see on the
4 right-hand side of the photo, that was the exit or the entry wound?
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: Maybe it's easier if we have the witness mark the
7 Can the usher please provide him with a red marking.
8 Q. And, sir, please wait for my instruction before using the -- the
9 pen. So I will ask you to put a number 1 next to the entry wound; and
10 the number 2 next to the exit wound. So 1 for the entry wound.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 MS. D'ASCOLI: Your Honours, I will tender this photo as marked
14 by the witness into evidence under seal, please.
15 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: For my own clarification where is this person
18 MS. D'ASCOLI:
19 Q. Witness, could you please tell your front side, which -- which
20 side of the photograph is facing? Or maybe which side of your -- whether
21 we're looking at your right side or at your left side at the bottom?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam D'Ascoli, the question is where is the
23 person facing, the person in the photograph. [Microphone not activated]
24 MS. D'ASCOLI:
25 Q. Sir, where -- where -- which way are you facing?
1 A. Well, straight ahead. This is the left side of my body.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.
3 At page 59, line 25, you were asked to say how you were injured,
4 and you said -- show the entry wound and the exit wound. You said "From
5 the right side to the left," which says to me the entry wound would be on
6 the right side and the exit wound on the left.
7 Am I right, Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the part where I was -- the
9 part of the body that -- where I was injured is my left side, and so this
10 is the entry and this is the exit wound forward. The abdomen is in
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. So that's the correction you make to that
13 answer at page 59, line 25. Thank you so much.
14 So this picture here, the person in this picture, is facing to
15 the left, as we are looking at the picture?
16 Am I right? Showing us his left side of the body.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
19 Yes, Ms. D'Ascoli, you may proceed.
20 MS. D'ASCOLI: I would tender this exhibit as marked by the
21 witness into evidence, under seal. 65 ter number is 05165.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: 05165 is admitted into evidence under seal. May
23 it please be give an exhibit number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I ask, just photograph as
25 marked by the witness --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: As marked by the witness.
2 THE REGISTRAR: -- to be uploaded separately receives number
3 P1440, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar, and may it
5 please be uploaded separately as marked.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And is admitted under seal.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
8 MS. D'ASCOLI: And I have the last two questions.
9 Q. Now, sir, in the days just after the Jadar river shooting while
10 you were still en route to reach Muslim-held territory, you received
11 help. Someone dressed and bandaged your wound. Do you remember the name
12 of this person?
13 A. Yes, I do. It was a male nurse. His name was Mujo Subasic.
14 Q. And now, what did you know about this person?
15 A. I knew that he was a refugee in Srebrenica, that he hailed from
16 Han Pijesak, the village of Podriplje [phoen].
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the name of the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that during the war he worked
20 as a male nurse.
21 MS. D'ASCOLI:
22 Q. Sir, just one last question. Can you tell us how your health is
24 A. Well, as the years go by, it's getting worse and worse. I should
25 have a -- I should have some hip surgery but I dare not do it yet.
1 Q. And this is as a consequence of the wound, the wound you received
2 during the execution at Jadar river; correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Thank you for having answered my questions, sir.
5 MS. D'ASCOLI: I don't have any further questions at this stage.
6 That concludes my direct examination, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam D'Ascoli.
8 Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
11 Q. Good day, RM314. I have some questions for you today. I would
12 ask that you pay close attention to the precise questions that I ask so
13 as to focus your answers to be the most truthful answers possible for
14 that question. Is that understood, sir?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Then I'd like to begin. First, sir, I want to just
17 ask you a few brief general questions before moving on to areas that are
18 specific to the matters contained in your statements and in your
19 testimony today.
20 First, I would like to ask you about the general situation in
21 Srebrenica in the months leading up to July 1995. Can you tell me,
22 during your time-period in the enclave did you have occasion to
23 eyewitness armed Armija BiH soldiers, whether in uniform or not, present
24 in the enclave?
25 A. What soldiers do you mean? Whose soldiers?
1 Q. Armija BiH soldiers of the 28th Division.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Apart from the UNPROFOR and other UN staff, did you happen to see
4 any other soldiers in the enclave of Srebrenica that were armed during
5 that time-period that you were there leading up to July 1995?
6 A. Well, they weren't armed. You could see some people maybe but
7 not as groups.
8 Q. With -- with respect to those people that you have now identified
9 as seeing them not armed and not as groups, could you please identify
10 with what armed formation they were affiliated. With what army?
11 A. No, no. I cannot identify them.
12 Q. Fair enough, sir. Now can you tell me, prior to the war, did you
13 have occasion to do your compulsory national service with the federal
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And could you tell me, sir, at that time where you served and
17 what your branch of service or speciality was.
18 A. I served in Macedonia, and I was an infantryman.
19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private
20 session so as not to reveal the personal details of this witness. I have
21 two questions for private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber move into private session.
23 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to move to some topics that you've directly
5 raised in your testimony and statements to find out some additional
6 information and get clarification. I would like to take a look at the
7 16 August 1995 ICTY statement. I would ask that it not be broadcast.
8 This is it P1435, marked for identification.
9 And, sir, now we have this document on the screen, am I correct
10 that this document was taken -- this statement was taken from you in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina approximately one month after the fall of Srebrenica
12 and after your arrival onto the Muslim-controlled territory?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And do you recall the individual who interviewed you as being
15 Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez of the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And -- and I believe that Mr. Ruez used a translator in his
18 discussions with you. Can you tell me if the translator appeared to be
19 conversant enough in the Bosnian language such that you could understand
20 what was being asked of you?
21 A. Yes. But the interpreter had a Croatian accent.
22 Q. Had anyone pressured you either or before during this interview
23 with Mr. Ruez of the Prosecution on 16 August 1995 to say things that
24 were untrue in this statement?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And just so we're clear, could you tell us, was this statement
2 translated orally to you before you signed it, or were you provided a
3 written translation of the same?
4 A. No, it was just read back to me.
5 Q. Thank you. And now if we can turn to the eighth page of the
6 English original and it should be the last page of the B/C/S. And, sir,
7 here we have the last page of the document. Was the attestation or
8 acknowledgment explained to you such that you were signing an English
9 statement that was true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to return to the front page of the
12 document and I'd like to direct your attention to the entry for your
13 current occupation. And you can follow along, sir, on the Bosnian
14 version. But here, in the English version, it is listed as saying you
15 are "member of the Bosnian army, soldier."
16 Does that comport to information that you gave to Mr. Ruez at the
17 time that this statement was taken?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was this something that was read back to you by the translator
20 that was present before you were asked to sign this page and, indeed,
21 this statement?
22 A. Well, probably. I didn't really pay attention to that.
23 Q. Did you object to this information or ask for it to be corrected?
24 A. No. I was in a special mental state. What kind of corrections
25 would I ask? I didn't even know where I was.
1 Q. I would now like to move to the second page in both versions of
2 this statement marked for identification and under seal. And again, we
3 should continue not to broadcast the document for that reason.
4 And here I'd like to look at the first paragraph of the statement
5 with you. I will not read it, but it indicates that you were demobilised
6 when UNPROFOR arrived and then you worked as a courier between the
7 civilian authorities and the lines of defence. Is this truthful and
8 accurate, this part of the statement?
9 A. No, I was released. I was demobilised and I worked as a courier
10 in civilian protection.
11 Q. And is it therefore your position that you did not have any
12 duties or any role within the armed forces of the BiH government in
13 Srebrenica in 1995?
14 A. Well, sir, what kind of role could I play? I was not a general.
15 Q. I understand your comment, sir. Could you now answer my
16 question. Am I correct that your position is that you did not have any
17 duties or any role within the armed forces of the BiH government in
18 Srebrenica in 1995.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Was this part of your statement read back to you and did you
21 object that this information was incorrect?
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which information, Mr. Ivetic?
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. The information that he was a courier between the civilian
25 authorities and the defence lines.
1 A. Well, she probably did read it, but I wasn't paying attention,
2 really. I did not deny it.
3 Q. Sir, earlier today you testified that you read this statement and
4 affirmed it to be true and accurate. Why did you not, at that time,
5 alert us as to this inaccuracy in the statement?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could I first ask the witness, please, what was
7 your duty as a courier? Who was giving you orders?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received orders from the civilian
9 protection. If there was something to be done, something taken to
10 someone, or taken from someone, helping people, that's what our job was,
11 civilian protection.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And were you working as a courier between
13 civilian authorities and defence lines?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to clarify what is -- what you mean
16 by incorrect statement, Mr. Ivetic.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
18 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
19 Q. Why did you not bring to our attention that this statement here
20 that says you were a courier between the civilian authorities and the
21 lines of defence was incorrect this morning when you were asked whether
22 you had -- whether you had reviewed the statement and whether it was
24 A. Well, we cannot change it now. This statement was given in 1995.
25 In view of the mental state in which I was, and also the possibility that
1 there may have been a translation error, well ...
2 Q. Do you believe that there are other errors in the statement that
3 you have now discovered upon reading it in a language that you
5 A. Yes, there are some minor errors. Others too.
6 Q. I'd like to take an opportunity to look at some of your testimony
7 under solemn declaration in the Popovic trial. If we can have 1D952.
8 That should be page 37 and 38 in e-court, starting at line 25 on the 37th
9 page and this was in open session in that case, so I don't believe we
10 have a problem with it being up on the monitors. It should be transcript
11 pages 3233 through 3234.
12 And, sir, in this section you were being asked about Osman Suljic
13 being in uniform and armed with a weapon leading a column of men you were
14 with, and you denied the same. And I will now read for you the selection
15 from this transcript so that you may understand it in a language that you
16 understand. And now begin at line 25 leading on to the next page:
17 "Q. Sir, does that mean that this sentence, which I read out to
18 you before the break, that Osman Suljic was the president of the
19 municipality of Srebrenica and that he was leading your group, was
21 "A. Yes, that is right.
22 "Q. Did you sign this statement?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q. Did you ever, when you talked with the representatives from
25 the Prosecutor's Office and the investigators, when you were submitting
1 corrections, did you ask that that part be corrected?
2 "A. Yes.
3 "Q. And was this done?
4 "A. I think that it was not.
5 "Q. When I showed you your previous statement given to the
6 investigators of this Tribunal, when you spoke about your position, did
7 you, when the statement was read back to you, point to that mistake?
8 "A. I think that this was a mistake in the translation, a
9 courier between the civilian and the military authorities."
10 Now, sir, I ask you first: This selection from the Popovic trial
11 that I've read to you, do you stand by it as being truthful and accurate
12 as to the matters that are contained in it?
13 A. The column was always broken up and it could happen ten times,
14 for instance. There was no one at the head of the column. There was no
15 organisation. There was no one leading the column or at the head of the
16 column. There was no one responsible for the column.
17 The other error between the civilian and -- authorities and the
18 military, I was only a courier. That was my duty obligation, so I had
19 absolutely nothing to do with military authorities.
20 Q. I do understand that, sir. And I'm asking you: Do you stand by
21 this testimony that I've read to you, indicating that you brought such
22 errors to the attention of the Office of the Prosecutor and they did not
23 correct them, or you did not believe that they corrected them?
24 A. I pointed them out, and I said this before the Popovic trial,
25 just the same thing.
1 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move to the next page of this transcript,
2 which is page 39 in e-court.
3 And, again, sir, I'd like to read for you this selection so that
4 you -- that you can have the information and answer my questions.
5 Beginning at line 1:
6 "[Interpretation] I don't see any mistakes in the translation
7 between -- in these two statements. And Investigator Ruez, who took this
8 statement, did you indicate this difference to him?
9 "A. The statement was given and the interpreter or the
10 translator was from Croatia, and you know that there are some words - and
11 this happened on Friday too - that they are different from one testimony
12 to the next. In one case, I said 'water basin,' and they said 'the basin
13 for bathing.' And these are the kinds of mistakes that we encountered.
14 So I think it is a question of translation."
15 First of all, sir, do you stand by and confirm this answer from
16 the Popovic trial as being truthful and accurate such that you would
17 repeat it again today subject to the solemn declaration?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. And now I'd like to continue from line 10 onwards:
20 "Q. Sir, when you came to Susnjari, you were lined up by your
21 leadership into lines, and groups were formed in such a way that there
22 were people there who were armed and those who were not armed; is this
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Each group left at a precise time.
1 "A. It wasn't a group. It was a column.
2 "Q. But groups were formed and these groups were mixed including
3 armed and unarmed people?
4 "A. This happened the next day. People who stayed behind,
5 people who didn't manage to pass through the first Serb lines at Buljim.
6 "Q. So this is not correct, that part of your statement?
7 "A. Yes, it's not true that groups were formed in Susnjari but
8 people returned to Buljim the next day to try to take people across who
9 were without weapons.
10 "Q. So that part of the statement which was introduced as an
11 exhibit before the Trial Chamber and which you confirmed for the
12 Prosecutor as being correct, now is not correct.
13 "A. Sir, do you know what the distance is from Susnjari to
15 Sir, do you stand by and affirm that this testimony of yours from
16 the Popovic trial that I've just presented to you is both truthful and
17 accurate, such that you would repeat it again today if asked the same
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'd like to now call up --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, I note the time.
22 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours. We can take the break
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take the break now.
25 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
1 [Closed session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
20 MR. IVETIC: I would like at this time to call up another
21 document that should not be broadcast to the public. It is it 1D00953.
22 Q. And, sir, while we wait for that document to be on the screen, I
23 advise you that this is a -- this is an information report that we
24 received from the Prosecution relative to the meeting you had with them
25 on the 7th of May, 2013. And if we look at item number 2, as we -- I
1 will read it for you since we did not receive a -- oh. I guess we do
2 have a translation in the system. If we can look at item number 2, sir,
3 it says that the witness reviewed his prior statements of 13 August 1995,
4 and it has the number for it; 16 August 1995, again with the number;
5 8th June 1999, again with the number; and 14 June 1999, again with the
6 numbers. He confirmed the evidence in these statements.
7 And the question I have for you, sir, is: Did you in fact
8 confirm these statements to be true, and if so, why did you not draw the
9 attention of the Prosecution to these and other errors that we have now
10 gone through with you?
11 A. Yes, I did make corrections.
12 Q. Is it therefore your testimony that this information report from
13 the Office of the Prosecution that in item 2 says, "He confirmed the
14 evidence in these statements," that this is incorrect?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: May you please repeat your answer, Mr. Witness.
17 The interpreters didn't hear you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we made the corrections, and I
19 stand by the statements corrected. The statement made on the 7th of
20 May ...
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. If you could provide us with some clarification. You said: Yes
23 we made corrections. Who is it that you made corrections with, sir?
24 A. With the Prosecutors.
25 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to take a look at another document and again
1 this one should also not be broadcast. It is 1D939 and dates before your
2 1995 statement to Mr. Ruez of the Prosecution.
3 And if we can have the first page.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast.
5 MR. IVETIC: Correct. Should not be broadcast.
6 I apologise. Is this the first page of the document? I have two
7 pages in my version.
8 THE REGISTRAR: There are two pages. Which page would you call
10 MR. IVETIC: Should be in the English, the first page.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which is on the screen.
12 MR. IVETIC: That's the second page in my version. Let me -- let
13 me just fast forward and ask about this part that is on the screen. If
14 we can go back to the --
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, in English there is only one page.
16 MR. IVETIC: I think I know what happened, so if we can go back
17 to the first page in B/C/S.
18 Q. Sir, looking at this document now and I don't want to give your
19 details so I will read the section or direct your attention to the part
20 in the first paragraph where you talk about an encounter where a
21 gentleman came to visit you in the clinic and told you that he was there
22 on behalf of the 2nd Corps and that he worked with journalists, and that
23 he was wearing a black T-shirt with BH Army insignia, and he asked you to
24 give a statement that you had been shot in Karakaj, but you refused to do
25 that and told him you could not say that because you were not there.
1 In relation to this incident and this statement, do you stand by
2 what is written here as being truthful -- as being -- as being truthful
3 and accurate as to the facts contained therein?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly not click with his
5 holder. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
7 continues] ... are not truthful. Because the statement is incomplete.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, you are requested not to click with
9 your -- whatever you're holding there, if you are clicking. I don't seem
10 to hear anything from your side. But that's the request from the
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. And, sir, I believe ...
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, it does look like Mr. Mladic has got a
15 problem with his hearing-aid.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Low voice. Low voice, Mr. Mladic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, our client says that he has had an
19 inability to get any translation on this headset. Can we please --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Inability to get a translation on?
21 MR. IVETIC: On the headset. Oh, I apologise. He asked me to
22 repeat the question because there was no translation for the answer that
23 was received.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do repeat the question then, Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
1 Q. Now, again, I -- I wanted to direct your attention to the part of
2 the first paragraph where you talk about an encounter where a gentleman
3 came to visit you in the clinic and told you he was there on behalf of
4 the 2nd Corps and that he work with journalists, and he was wearing a
5 black T-shirt with BH Army insignia, and asked you to give a statement
6 that you had been shot in Karakaj, but you refused to do so and told him
7 that you could not do that because you were not there.
8 In relation to this incident and this statement, do you stand by
9 what is written here as being truthful and accurate as to the facts
10 contained therein?
11 A. These facts are not truthful and accurate.
12 Q. Sir, the original of this document is handwritten. Do you
13 recognise the handwriting of this statement? Or do you have personal
14 knowledge of who wrote it?
15 A. This is my handwriting, and this was the statement that they
16 tried to make me do under coercion, and that is why I drafted it in this
18 Q. If you could provide some clarification for us. Who is the
19 "they" that tried to make you do this statement under coercion?
20 A. At that time, when Srebrenica fell, I was among the first who
21 came there as a survivor of shooting. Due to that, I was very
22 interesting for all the journalists. One day, when I went out into the
23 corridor of the hospital, there were many journalists, and one of them
24 wanted to talk to me. The guard sent up someone to check whether I was
25 there or not, and later on, the journalists left. One day later, they
1 wanted to force me to give this statement, and I refused to do that under
2 coercion, as is stated here.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness to clarify
4 this matter. Can you help me? Was there somebody in the hospital asking
5 you about an execution in Kladanj? Did that happen, that somebody
6 approached you in relation to that event in Kladanj? In Karakaj, sorry.
7 In Karakaj.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. He asked me
9 to make a statement, since I was in the garrison infirmary which was some
10 200 or 300 metres from the medical centre, and all the wounded from
11 Srebrenica were occupying one storey. So it was part of the garrison
12 infirmary but nevertheless we were being treated there, and if necessary
13 we had to be taken to the Gradina medical centre. The one who came and
14 approached me and asked for a statement, and I refused.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you were asked by this person about an event
16 which happened in Karakaj; is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he asked me where it happened.
18 I wanted to avoid that, and I said in Karakaj.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said in Karakaj. What did you say in
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He asked me where I was shot, and I
22 replied in Karakaj. And it is dated 31st of July. I was already in such
23 a psychological state that some things may not be quite correct.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you confirm that you have been in Karakaj
25 to this person?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He simply gave me a piece of paper
2 and asked me to write a statement. And then he took it from me by force.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that this statement we see now on our
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I simply don't understand what you are saying at
7 the moment.
8 I see there the sentence, "He," this man who approached you, "He
9 then told me to say that I had been in a group which had been shot in
10 Karakaj, but I refused that."
11 Now you are saying you didn't refuse. Did I understand you
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I signed this statement.
14 You can see my signature on the second page.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What did you say to this person who approached
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot remember what I said
18 on that occasion. I was already in hospital in a psychological
19 condition, and all the people and journalists who came wanted to get
20 interviews from us. And I refused to do that, to everybody.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you look at the headline, I read there:
22 "I am giving the following statement about the announced visit of
24 It is written in your handwriting. Was it your idea to give this
25 original document you wrote with your own hands, to give this to the
1 journalists, or to other people? What was the idea when you wrote this
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any intention of
4 giving any statement whatsoever, but I was rather forced by those who
5 were securing the infirmary to make this statement.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: "They," you say "they." What do you mean by
7 "them"? Are these the people with BH Army insignia?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was part of the garrison
9 infirmary. And he introduced himself as a security officer for the
10 infirmary. I said I don't want to give any statement and he said I must
11 do it. We argued about it. He gave me a piece of paper. I wrote on it,
12 signed it, and then he went out. And now this paper also appears as a
13 document, and I also denied and refuted this statement in my previous
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. For this clarification.
16 Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'd like to look at the testimony that
18 this witness refers to another case, but at this time I'd like to tender
19 this document, before we forget to do so, as the next available Defence
20 exhibit number, under seal.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam D'Ascoli?
22 MS. D'ASCOLI: No objection, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, the document is admitted. May it
24 please be given an exhibit number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D939 receives number D281,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it should be under seal.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Now I'd like to look at
6 1D952, page 50 in e-court. This is the testimony from the Popovic case
7 that correlates to transcript page 3246. And I'd like to look at
8 number -- line number 1.
9 Q. And, sir, I would ask you to bear with me as I present to you the
10 testimony that is recorded here before asking you questions about it.
11 And now I begin:
12 "Q. At the very beginning you will see that on the
13 27th of July, 1995, you were visited by a man who was brought by a nurse
14 and that he introduced himself to you as somebody representing the
15 2nd Corps that works with journalists. Is that what you stated? Is that
16 what you wrote?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. You also stated that he wore a black shirt with the insignia
19 of the BiH army. Can you see that in the next sentence two lines further
21 "A. Yes. I can remember now.
22 "Q. You can remember then. And later on, you say that he told
23 you that you should provided a false testimony and say that you were
24 wounded in Karakaj.
25 "A. No. This was my Smajo Elezovic, and I didn't want to give
1 him a statement and there was a conflict between him and me.
2 "Q. And that was the person who had visited you. His name was
3 Smajo Elezovic; is that correct?
4 "A. Yes."
5 And, sir, in relation to this portion of the testimony that I
6 read back to you, is it truthful and accurate as to the facts contained
7 therein including the identity of the person who came to visit you in the
8 black T-shirt with the insignia of the BH Army?
9 A. Yes, he was a security officer at the infirmary.
10 Q. And did you know this gentleman before you came to the infirmary
11 or is it someone that you met while at the infirmary?
12 A. That was the first time that I met him. I hadn't known him
14 Q. Fair enough. Now I want to move to another document that
15 predates your ICTY statement. And again this one should not be
16 broadcast. It is 1D940. And I think we will see it is dated in -- dated
17 the 2nd of August, 1995.
18 And, first of all, sir, on the first page we see your name, and
19 can you confirm that the signature on the bottom of the original is, in
20 fact, your own?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And if we could turn to the last page of the document in both
23 versions. Again, not broadcasting the same. And, sir, can you confirm
24 that at the time that you signed this document that the text that is
25 above it, that says:
1 "This is all I have to say. The record was dictated to me aloud.
2 Everything I said is in it, and I confirm it to be my own -- confirm it
3 as my own by my signature."
4 Do you confirm that that text was there when you signed this
6 A. What do you mean, was it there? I gave this same statement to
7 the basic court in Tuzla. I was taken on crutches from the infirmary to
8 give this statement, and this is the statement, in fact. But there were
9 some corrections as well that were made to this statement, and that was
10 immediately after the fall of Srebrenica.
11 Q. And am I correct that the discussions with the investigative
12 judge that generated this statement were conducted in the Bosnian
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did anyone pressure you or direct you to say things that were
16 not true or were not known by you for purposes of generating this
18 A. There were certain things, not under coercion, but, rather, I was
19 asked about things that bore no relation to my case.
20 Q. Okay. And if we can look at the second page in both languages of
21 this document. And, again, this should not be broadcast.
22 The first part has some significant detail, describing what is
23 referred to as the Serbian Chetnik aggressor launching an offensive
24 against Srebrenica and gives very detailed information about the precise
25 military movements of the Chetniks through various locales and then gives
1 very detailed information about the military movements of UNPROFOR in the
3 The question I have for you, sir, is: Did you observe all of
4 this and is it truthful and accurate?
5 A. No. That was what I heard.
6 Q. And if you did not -- if you did not observe it yourselves, from
7 who did you hear this material? How did it get into this statement?
8 A. Well, there were people living in the villages around Srebrenica.
9 They knew what was happening, and they were describing what was going on
10 up there.
11 Q. Okay. Did ... did you tell the investigative judge that this
12 information that is contained in this statement that you signed was not
13 something that you knew but came from other sources?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. It was all hearsay that was not anything
15 that I personally saw.
16 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that although you weren't coerced
17 there were some things that were not entirely accurate. I would like to
18 address that with you by looking at your testimony in Popovic. Again, if
19 we can have 1D952. And again that was in open session, so we can -- we
20 don't have a problem with it. And it should be page 33 of that document,
21 which correlates to transcript page 3229.
22 And, sir, I'd again, ask you to listen to the testimony that I
23 read back to you and so you get it in a language that you understand, and
24 I will have questions for you after it.
25 And I begin:
1 "Q. Sir, look at the sentence on the -- in the upper part where
2 it says: First they took up the UNPROFOR check-point at green Jadar, the
3 UNPROFOR had withdrawn from there leaving the materiel and technical
4 supplies. That's why the army was forced to take up the position above
5 the green Jadar and maintained it for a few days. Do you remember that
6 part of your statement given to the court in Tuzla?
7 "A. Maybe in a different forum. This statement is full of
8 mistakes. I was hospitalised at the time and I was forced to give that
9 statement, and these are not the only mistakes. There are a lot of
10 things that I don't agree with in this statement. I signed it there, but
11 I would like to answer other questions.
12 "Q. Who forced you to give that statement?
13 "A. The people who were in charge of collecting information from
14 the victims of war and from the survivors."
15 Sir, do you stand by and confirm this testimony of yours from the
16 Popovic case as being truthful and accurate as to the matters contained
17 therein, such that you would so testify today after having taken the
18 solemn declaration?
19 A. Yes, they are correct.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to just briefly focus on the
21 time-period when you were mobilised. As I understand it, from sometime
22 in 1992 to 1993 you do admit to being a member of the Territorial Defence
23 of the Bosnian Muslim armed forces in Srebrenica; is that correct?
24 A. That was the Territorial Defence, and I was there until the
25 arrival of UNPROFOR. I was in the Territorial Defence.
1 Q. During that time-period that you were a member of the
2 Territorial Defence prior to the arrival of UNPROFOR, did you have
3 occasion to take any oaths or swear any oaths to the commanders of that
4 armed formation?
5 A. No. Not me.
6 Q. Fair enough. Now I'd like to move to ask you some clarification
7 of the incidents that you -- you say occurred at the Jadar river.
8 In -- if we can -- again, not to be displayed to the public. But
9 if we can have the statement P1435, marked for identification, on the
10 screen. And I would be interested in page 6 in the English, the last
11 paragraph, and page 6 in the B/C/S. It should be the third
12 paragraph from the top.
13 And now, sir, again, in B/C/S, it is the third paragraph from the
14 top of this page. In English, it should be the last paragraph. And here
15 you describe, sir, that when these men, these four -- pardon me, these
16 men when they started shooting, that you describe a bullet going through
17 your hip and you fell down. And I want to ask you, sir, prior to the
18 shooting started, did you at any time hear anyone give any instruction or
19 order to begin shooting?
20 A. No. While we were held at the warehouse, we were just told to
21 get dressed. They put us on buses, took us to Kuslete [phoen]. There
22 they lined us up next to the guardrail, and then one of the soldiers said
23 to another one, Not there, let them go down. Then we went down to the
24 river, some 15 to 20 metres, where we were lined up and that's when the
25 shooting began.
1 Q. And these persons that were shooting at you, sir, I take it they
2 were using rifles, infantry rifles?
3 A. Yes.
23 And may the Chamber please move into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 10890 redacted. Private session.
5 [Closed session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we adjourn, Mr. Ivetic, how much more time
1 do you still need?
2 MR. IVETIC: Looking at my outline, Your Honours, I believe 50 or
3 55 minutes should suffice.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. That's in the first hour -- in the first
5 session tomorrow.
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: We stand adjourned to Thursday, the 9th of
8 May, 2013, in the same courtroom, at 9.30 in the morning.
9 Court adjourned -- Mr. McCloskey? Oh.
10 Court adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of May,
13 2013, at 9.30 a.m.