Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10893

 1                           Thursday, 9 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

11             Just to place on record that, once again, Judge Orie is not with

12     us because of urgent Tribunal business, and, therefore, Judge Fluegge and

13     I have decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis in the interests of

14     justice.

15             Thank you so much.

16             May we please move into closed session.

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10894

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 4             Good morning, Witness RM314.  Just to remind you that you're

 5     still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your

 6     testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the

 7     truth.  Understood?

 8                           WITNESS:  RM314 [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you, too.  And I

11     stand by my oath.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. RM314.

13             Mr. Ivetic, good morning to you.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Good morning, Your Honour.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.  I'd like to start by calling up

17     another document that should not be broadcast.  It's 1D948.

18             Sir, while we wait for the document I believe it is a medical

19     document dated the 16th of July, 1995.  And when it comes up, I would ask

20     you to take a look at it and verify that you recognise this as being the

21     document from your first -- one of your first medical examinations when

22     you arrived at the free Bosnian Muslim territory.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Should not be broadcast.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, Your Honour, it should not be broadcast.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is correct.  This is my

Page 10895

 1     first diagnosis.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now looking at the line item for your

 4     profession, this document lists you as being a soldier, does this accord

 5     with what you told the people at the clinic about your status on this

 6     date?

 7        A.   I was admitted to the Gradina Medical Centre because all other

 8     facilities were occupied.  We were told that we had to move to the

 9     Gradina infirmary and they emptied four rooms in order to put in all the

10     wounded from the -- Srebrenica.  So this document was issued by the

11     garrison infirmary where I was hospitalised.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir, for that information.  And then my question was:

13     Did you in fact -- or does -- does the occupation of soldier accord with

14     what you told the staff at the clinic your status was?

15        A.   I didn't say anything.  I was a civilian ...

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part.

17     We did not understand what he said.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, the interpreters didn't hear the last

19     part of your answer.  Could you please repeat your answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody asked me whether I was a

21     soldier or not.  And it wasn't me who dictated this certificate.  That

22     means that the person who issued this certificate is responsible for its

23     contents.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  The certificate also says:

Page 10896

 1             "Wounded four days ago while escaping from Srebrenica.  And were

 2     wounded in the left hip area."

 3             Does this accord with the description of how and when you were

 4     wounded that you gave to the medical staff at the clinic?

 5        A.   I provided the details as to where I was wounded, in which hip,

 6     and they received it from the medical centre.  So based on the wound,

 7     they compiled this diagnosis sheet.

 8        Q.   And looking further on the sheet, at least the English

 9     translation indicates that you're performing messenger or courier duties

10     at the Srebrenica prime school.  Is this in fact correct or not?

11        A.   That is not correct.

12        Q.   If I can ask you to look at the B/C/S original, there's listed

13     for the place of your employment the OS Srebrenica in Bosnian.  Would you

14     agree with me that OS Srebrenica can refer also to the armed forces of

15     Srebrenica, the "oruzane snage"?

16        A.   No.  The defence department was part of the civilian authorities,

17     not the military authorities.

18        Q.   I understand that, sir.  I'm talking about the abbreviation OS in

19     the Bosnian original.  OS Srebrenica, that abbreviation could stand for

20     armed forces Srebrenica.  Am I correct?

21        A.   According to you, yes.  But I was a courier for the civilian

22     protection.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document under

25     seal as the next Defence exhibit number.

Page 10897

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli.

 2             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No objection, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1D948 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

 4     given an exhibit number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D948 receives number D282,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.  Under seal.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, in the English the diagnosis is -- is listed as not

10     being legible, but it is in the handwritten B/C/S original.  We see it

11     there.  I want to ask you -- I know it's in Latin, so I want to just ask

12     you:  Did anyone at the clinic explain for you what their diagnoses as

13     reflected on this form of your wound meant?

14        A.   No.  Nobody explained anything to me.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'd now like to -- look at another document that also

16     should not be broadcast to the public.  And that's 1D946.

17             And, sir, now we have this document on the screen, I'd ask you to

18     take a moment to glance at it and let me know if you can confirm that

19     this is the discharge sheet from the outpatient clinic of the Tuzla

20     garrison of the Armija BiH relating to your discharge from their care?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, it is.  It is correct.

22        Q.   And if we look at the first page where it has listed your

23     military unit, there's listed OS and then the translator's note:  Armed

24     forces Srebrenica.  Again I have to ask you:  Does this accord with the

25     information that you gave the medical care providers at the Tuzla

Page 10898

 1     garrison clinic?

 2        A.   I didn't provide any information to anyone.  I was supposed to be

 3     discharged, and they wrote this discharge sheets in the same way as they

 4     did for everybody else.  They should also read the 2nd Corps because I

 5     was at the garrison infirmary, not at the Gradina Clinical Centre.  So

 6     the Gradina Medical Centre was not the one who was supposed to issue this

 7     document, but, rather, the garrison infirmary.

 8        Q.   I'm a little confused, sir.  I believe looking at the B/C/S

 9     original of the form that it was the "ambulanta garizona Tuzla" that

10     issued this form.  Is that what you're talking about, that they were not

11     supposed to issue the form?

12        A.   They should have issued it because I was hospitalised at the

13     garrison infirmary because all the beds were occupied in the

14     Gradina Clinical Centre, and I was not the only one there.  There were

15     four rooms full of the wounded from Srebrenica.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now this document is signed by a medical doctor.  Do

17     you recall this doctor as being one of the persons who treated you while

18     you were at the infirmary of the Tuzla garrison?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.  On the morning of the 17th of June.

20        Q.   Now, on this version, the -- the -- we have again the diagnosis

21     written in Latin that appears on the English and the B/C/S, and I want to

22     ask you, sir:  Did anyone at the garrison explain to you -- at the

23     garrison infirmary explain to you that their diagnosis was that your

24     wound was as a result of an explosion rather than a bullet?

25        A.   No.  That was an entry/exit wound, and it can clearly be seen.

Page 10899

 1        Q.   I'm asking about the diagnosis recorded by the medical staff that

 2     looked at you.  Did they explain that their diagnosis as written implies

 3     an explosive injury not related to a bullet?

 4        A.   Well, one could see that the wound was called by -- caused by a

 5     gun-shot wound, not an explosion.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness RM314, that's not answering the question.

 7     The question is:  Did anybody at the clinic when you were discharged

 8     explain to you how, in their view, you got injured?  Did anybody explain

 9     anything to you about your injury?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, a much better question.  I'd

14     like to tender this document also under seal, Your Honours, as the next

15     exhibit number.

16             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No objections, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

18     number and be kept under seal.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D946 receives number D283,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

22             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question in relation to this document

24     to the witness, please.

25             We see that this is a form, the document is the a form, you would

Page 10900

 1     agree with that, used by the Army of the Republic of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3             In the first line, we see first name, father's name, last name.

 4     This is printed.  Then somebody has written your name.  Behind that, we

 5     see "vojna jedinica."  That seems to be "military unit" in the

 6     translation.

 7             This is also part of the printed form.  Would you agree with

 8     that, Witness?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is written military unit

10     in the form.  But they filled out this form.  And they registered all of

11     us as the wounded from Srebrenica.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just want to make the distinction between the

13     printed part of this document and the handwritten part.  Behind the words

14     military unit, in B/C/S of course, what can you read there in handwriting

15     in the first line of the document?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] OS Srebrenica.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you sure that this is OS or could it be JS or

18     something else?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's OS.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put this question because in the English

21     translation the translators were not sure about the letter O and put a

22     question mark there, in the translation.

23             At the bottom of this document, on the left side, you see

24     something which is translated as:

25             "Note:  After being discharged from the medical institution, the

Page 10901

 1     patient should immediately report to the doctor attached to his military

 2     unit."

 3             This is part of the printed form; is that correct?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did anyone in your -- in the clinic tell you what

 6     that means?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  No further questions.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   I would like to now move on to your 92 ter statement - again this

11     should not be broadcast to the public - P1435, marked for identification.

12     And we should be looking for page 3 in the English at the top of the

13     page.  Page 2 in the Bosnian at the very bottom of the page.  And it

14     leads onto the next page in the B/C/S.

15             And, sir, the part I want to focus on is this time when you were

16     discovered by the four men in police uniform.  When you surrendered to

17     them they asked you if you had a weapon.  You said did you not.  They

18     looked in your bag and they found a hand-grenade that you had in there.

19             And I want to ask you, sir:  How did you happen to obtain a

20     hand-grenade?  Was it issued to you by the armed forces of the Armija BiH

21     in Srebrenica?

22        A.   No.  I was given it by acquaintance of mine on the road between

23     Srebrenica and Susnjari.

24        Q.   Okay.  Then I would like to focus on the next part of your

25     testimony in this statement, which I believe is on the next page in the

Page 10902

 1     B/C/S.  It's still on the same page in English.  The next part you talk

 2     about in the next paragraph is an incident where you were walking and

 3     came across the body of a civilian that had blown himself up with a

 4     hand-grenade.  And I want to ask you, sir:  Was it a -- was it a common

 5     practice known to you that civilian males from Srebrenica were

 6     distributed hand-grenades?

 7        A.   That's not true.  Nobody gave us any grenades.  We just tried to

 8     solve this in any way we can.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now you say that you thought the individual had committed

10     suicide based on what you observed.  I want to look at another document

11     with you, and this also should not be broadcast.  It's 1D940.  And this

12     is again the statement that you gave in August 1995 to an investigating

13     judge in Tuzla.  And when we get that document, I think we'll need page 4

14     in both languages.  And it's near the top, sir.  There's the line, and

15     I'll read it for you in English.  It says:

16             "At that moment a civilian ran out of the grass in front of me,

17     threw down a hand-grenade on the edge of the asphalt road and killed

18     himself with the blast without wounding a single Chetnik."

19             Sir, is this part truthfully and accurately recounting what you

20     told the investigating judge in Tuzla on this occasion?

21        A.   Yes, it's correct.

22        Q.   And is -- is this the same incident you describe in your

23     statement that we just looked at?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   And so is it now your testimony that you actually eye-witnessed

Page 10903

 1     the individual running out of the grass and throwing the hand-grenade?

 2        A.   I didn't see him throwing the hand-grenade.  He was on a higher

 3     ground in respect of me.  When they noticed me on the asphalt road, the

 4     policemen and soldiers in camouflage uniforms shot over our heads and

 5     shouting, Surrender.  He was above me.  And, in fear, he threw the

 6     grenade and killed himself.  Later on, after I was captured and taken

 7     towards the school, they asked me if he was my brother, and whether I

 8     knew him.  And then they ordered me to pull him by the legs onto the

 9     grass.  He was lying on the asphalt road with his face down, and there

10     was a lot of blood.  In other words, I don't know the identity of that

11     man.

12        Q.   I'd like to look at another document with you.  And, again, this

13     also should not be broadcast.  And it is 1D944 in e-court.

14             And if we can have the second page in both languages.  Sir, this

15     is a 2006 proofing session that you had with the Office of the

16     Prosecutor.  And I want to ask you about -- it's the last item on the

17     second page in the English to see if this accords with what you just told

18     us.  And I will read it for you.  It's actually going to be the next page

19     in the B/C/S, I believe.  Yes.  There you go.  It's the lasts item on the

20     page in B/C/S now as well, sir.

21             And it says there:

22             "The witness also indicated that references in his prior

23     statements to his having observed an individual commit suicide by

24     detonating a grenade are incorrect in that no such direct observation was

25     made."

Page 10904

 1             Does this report made by the Prosecution accord with what you

 2     told them and what you truthfully describe about this incident?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I didn't see him kill himself.  I simply

 4     found him on the asphalt road.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honours, just for the record, I don't think

 6     it's fair to put a contradiction to the witness as the witness just said

 7     what -- now confirm in his answers meaning that he didn't directly

 8     observe that.  And that is what is recorded in the ICTY statement.  So I

 9     think this corresponds to what we read now in the proofing note that the

10     explosion, let's say, wasn't directly observed.  So just ... it's

11     fair [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... what's your objection,

13     madam --

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  That I think the witness is being presented with

15     contradictions that are not actually true.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Must a contradiction necessarily be true,

17     Madam D'Ascoli?

18             MS. D'ASCOLI:  I'm saying on the basis of what he just said, the

19     follow-up question was not the contradiction the way was put to him.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought the question was, Does this statement,

21     this report accord to what you told the Prosecution.  The answer to that

22     is yes or no.  And I think the witness answered the question.

23             Objection overruled.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Sir, I want to ask you in relation to the hand-grenade that you

Page 10905

 1     had on your possession, do you recall what type of hand-grenade it was

 2     and what type of prior experience you had had with such devices?

 3        A.   First of all, I didn't see the man.  I didn't see him kill

 4     himself.  It was just that the hand-grenade detonated.  The Serb soldiers

 5     and policemen were firing over our heads, shouting to surrender.  I

 6     didn't even see the man close to me in the grass or -- until I saw him on

 7     the tarmac, dead.

 8        Q.   Sir, perhaps -- perhaps I misspoke or you did not understand my

 9     question.  I was asking in relation to the hand-grenade that you had in

10     your possession in your bag.  What type was it, and what experience or

11     instruction had you had prior --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you split the two questions?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What type was it?

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

16        Q.   What type was it, the hand-grenade in your bag?

17        A.   It was a standard hand-grenade, which was not activated.  It was

18     in my bag that had been given to me by a man in order to have it at hand,

19     should I fall into the Serb hands.  As regards any previous experience, I

20     served my term in the JNA --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm going to interrupt you, Witness.  Please try

22     to listen to the question.  You're not being asked to explain how you

23     acquired it.  You're just being asked to explain what type it was.  You

24     said it is a standard hand-grenade.  If that's the entirety of your

25     explanation of what type it is, stop there.

Page 10906

 1             Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:

 3        Q.   You say it was a standard hand-grenade.  Was it a standard

 4     offensive or defensive hand-grenade, because I understand both are in the

 5     arsenal of the former JNA?

 6        A.   I don't know what type of hand-grenade it was.

 7        Q.   At the time that you were given the hand-grenade by the

 8     acquaintance, were you given any instruction as to how to use it?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Now I'd like to move on to ask you to return to the point in time

11     when you were with the column of able-bodied men as you set out from

12     Srebrenica when the Serbs were approaching.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go there, Mr. Ivetic.  I asked you to

14     split your question, sir.  You have not asked the second part of your

15     question.  You asked if he was given instructions when he acquired it and

16     not asking what prior experience he has --

17             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- of hand-grenade.

19             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I thought he already

20     answered when he said he had used them in the JNA.

21        Q.   Can you tell us what type of prior experience you had handling

22     this particular type of hand-grenade?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Was there any colour code on the grenade in question that you had

25     in your possession?

Page 10907

 1        A.   It was simply black.

 2        Q.   And I'm having trouble understanding your last answer.  Is

 3     that -- did you have prior experience handle this particular type of

 4     hand-grenade, is perhaps the better question.

 5        A.   I answered a moment ago.  I said no.

 6        Q.   Now, as I said I'd like to move back in time to the point when

 7     you were with the column of able-bodied men setting out from Srebrenica

 8     and you were -- I want to look at the Popovic transcript where in open

 9     session you talked about some items related to the 12- to 15.000 men that

10     you mention in your 92 ter statement.  If we can have 1D952 and page 63

11     in e-court at this moment.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is 952 to be publicised?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, it was in public session in Popovic

14     so ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And further I believe that the nature of the items

17     will not identify this witness.

18        Q.   Sir, I will read for you since we only have it English, as the

19     transcripts are in English, and please follow along and I will ask you to

20     first verify if this is all accurate and in accord with your recollection

21     of your testimony and then some follow-up questions.  Beginning at

22     line 1:

23             "Q.  And approximately a third of those were armed.  That was in

24     your statement; correct?

25             "A.  In one part, yes.  However, the exact information --

Page 10908

 1             "Q.  Those are your estimates.  So according to your estimates,

 2     4.000 to 5.000 armed soldiers were in the column towards Tuzla.  Do you

 3     agree?

 4             "A.  No.

 5             "Q.  You would still agree the column was 12.000 to 15.000 and

 6     about a third of them were armed, from what you could see; correct?

 7             "A.  I was talking about Buljim when I mentioned one-third, and

 8     as for the entire column and how many people went through the lines, you

 9     have to ask somebody else that.

10             "Q.  Well, I'm asking you, sir, because you're here and I'm going

11     to ask you another question.  In your statement, you indicated when the

12     column started out that there were armed men, able-bodied men with arms,

13     that were spread out between and amongst the people who were not armed;

14     correct?

15             "A.  It was people returning to bring across people without

16     weapons who did not manage to cross the first Serb lines at Buljim in the

17     early morning.

18             "Q.  Now, did all of the people that you observed in that column

19     who had arms, hunting rifles, pistols, grenades, whatever, were they all

20     in camouflage uniforms or were some of them just dressed like civilians,

21     like you?

22             "A.  No.  Many of them were in civilian clothes."

23             Now, sir, do you confirm and stand by this testimony from Popovic

24     as being both truthful and accurate?

25        A.   Yes, I stand by this testimony, and that is the truth.

Page 10909

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move along to page 87 in e-court to

 2     present you with another portion of your prior testimony.  And this time

 3     if we could focus on line 4.  And again, sir, I will read it for you and

 4     ask you some questions relative to the same:

 5             "Q.  Earlier you testified about Susnjari and about the number of

 6     people to be found in Susnjari.  You said that since you mentioned that

 7     one-third of the men were armed among the able bodied people, you did not

 8     mention Susnjari but about Buljim when you testified in the Krstic case;

 9     is that right?

10             "A.  Yes.

11             "Q.  I'd like to read out this part of the testimony, your

12     testimony in the Krstic case.

13             "Ms. Faveau: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President.

14             "Q.  You said page 3240 [In English] 'I went with all the other

15     men towards the village of Slatina and Susnjari upwards.'  And then the

16     Prosecution [sic] asked you this:  'About how many other men were

17     gathered in the area of Susnjari when you got there?'  And you responded:

18     'Well, there were about 12 and 15.  I can't give you an exact figure but

19     there were a lot of us.'  And then the question was:  'Do you know

20     roughly how many of those men might have been armed in some way?'  And

21     your response was:  'As far as I was able to note, about a third, I would

22     say, with hunting rifles, with not very strong weaponry, hunting rifles

23     and other types but a third of them, I would say, not more.'

24             "[Interpretation] Do you agree that in the Krstic case you did

25     mention or you did speak about Susnjari and you were mentioning 12- to

Page 10910

 1     15.000 people and a third of them were armed."

 2             And if question go on the next page:

 3             "A.  Yes.

 4             "Q.  Was your testimony accurate?

 5             "A.  Yes.

 6             "Q.  Was it also fair to say that when you arrived in Susnjari,

 7     somebody told you to line up so that civilians and military would be all

 8     mixed together?

 9             "A.  All the men who arrive there were there.  I don't know what

10     you mean when you say ... military.  All the men, irrespective of age,

11     they were all there."

12             Now, sir, do you stand by this selection of the Popovic

13     transcript as being truthful and accurately depict what your testimony

14     was, as you remember it?

15        A.   Yes, it is truthful and I stand by it.

16        Q.   Then I'd like to look at one other selection about the column and

17     that's in 1D949, which also is a public session transcript, and I don't

18     believe it will identify the witness.  And we're looking at page 7 in

19     e-court which should correlate to transcript page 2341 of the Krstic

20     trial.  And if we could look at line 3 onwards, sir.  And again I will

21     read so you get translation of what the transcript says and then I'll ask

22     you the same questions as with the other selections:

23             "Q.  Was that the evening of the 11th or was it noon on the 12th?

24             "A.  It was in the evening of the 12th -- no, I'm sorry.  It was

25     between the 11th and 12th.  We started out on the 11th, at about 2.30,

Page 10911

 1     and in the evening we arrived at Susnjari at about 10.00.  We had a

 2     consultation there.  So that at about 12.00 midnight, that is to say we

 3     started out, the night between the 11th and the 12th.

 4             "Q.  What was this consultation you referred to?

 5             "A.  Well, we lined up so that as many people could cross as

 6     possible, because the Serb lines were very near and there were a lot of

 7     us.  Around Csusi and the surrounding hills, that's where they were.

 8             "Q.  Was someone leading the consultation or leading this large

 9     group of men?

10             "A.  No.  They just tried to line us up so that people with

11     weapons and without weapons would be mixed up together, and if we came

12     across an ambush, to prevent as many people losing their lives as

13     possible."

14             And, sir, now having listened to this selection of your testimony

15     from Krstic, do you stand by the same as being truthful and accurate?

16        A.   Yes, it is truthful and accurate.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Now at this time, Your Honours, I think I do need to

19     go into private session to discuss one topic that may lead to the witness

20     being identified if it's in open session.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10912











11 Pages 10912-10915 redacted. Private session.















Page 10916

 1   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And straight into closed session again.  I'm sorry

20     about that.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10917

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 10918

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10919











11 Pages 10919-10920 redacted. Private session.















Page 10921

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 5             Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.

 6             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you.  I do have some

 7     re-examination.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. D'Ascoli:

 9        Q.   Sir, well, I just have a few additional questions that I want to

10     ask to clarify the record.

11             While I know that after you testified three times already before

12     the Tribunal it is very difficult for you to be here and to go through

13     all your evidence, right?  So I'll try to -- I understand that and so

14     please bear with me.  I'll try to be brief.

15             Now, yesterday my colleague Mr. Ivetic spent quite some time

16     yesterday and today discussing some of your prior statements.

17             One of these statements that Mr. Ivetic showed to you yesterday

18     was a handwritten statement, your handwriting, dated the

19     31st of July, 1995, and written at the Tuzla garrison infirmary.  This

20     was admitted as Exhibit D00281.  This was discussed yesterday at

21     transcript pages 10877 to 10882.  You might remember also Judge Fluegge

22     asked you some questions and clarifications about it.

23             Now, I believe there was some confusion about which statement

24     that was what you believed that was, so I'll try to clarify that so

25     please bear with me.

Page 10922

 1             We researched the provenance of this handwritten statement and we

 2     saw we received it from the ABiH 2nd Corps headquarters in Tuzla.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  So I want to call up 65 ter 28893 and if I can

 4     please have the first page of both the English and the B/C/S on e-court.

 5             Your Honours, this is a newly up loaded documents that was not on

 6     our 65 ter exhibit list.  It is a daily report of the

 7     ABiH 2nd Medical Battalion of the 2nd Corps with attached handwritten

 8     statement dated 31st of July, 1995.  There is the same handwritten

 9     statement that we -- you know, I discuss was admitted as D281.

10             This document was disclosed in its entirety.

11             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Should not be broadcast, I think.  Is that

13     correct?

14             MS. D'ASCOLI:  That first page, yes, not to be broadcast.  Thank

15     you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've given quite a lot of evidence.  Can we get

17     to re-examination, please.

18             MR. IVETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... no objection.

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Sorry?

20             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the use of the document.  It was the

21     first page I was missing in e-court yesterday, so ...

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes.  We didn't see it yesterday so I'm showing it

23     now.

24        Q.   So if we read -- if we -- well, if we read the date we see that

25     it is dated the 31st of July and the reporting issue is unauthorised

Page 10923

 1     remarks or statements given to the media.

 2             Now, sir, do you see the document on the screen?  And can you

 3     read the paragraph after the -- after it says "reporting issue"?  Now we

 4     read that, "Due to a failure on the part of the staff at the reception of

 5     the Tuzla garrison infirmary to carry out their tasks properly, persons

 6     who were not identified," according to your written statement, took a

 7     statement from you, from the witness.  And then, okay, we have the

 8     signature, the -- the security commander -- reporting commander also says

 9     that statements will be taken by Nurse Rasema, and the person at the

10     reception that you mention in your statement.  Now yesterday in answering

11     one of the questions --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, sorry.

14        Q.   Yesterday, in response to a question by Judge Fluegge, you said

15     that you didn't have an intention of giving a statement whatsoever.  I

16     was rather forced by those who were securing the infirmary to make this

17     statement.  This is line -- well, this is it page 10882 lines 3 to 5.

18     And then when asked -- when you were asked to explain what you mean by

19     "they," you said that -- yeah, they introduced themselves as security

20     officer of the infirmary.

21             So, now, my question is, because we see that this document,

22     which, you know, like is a daily report attached to your statement and

23     your statement of the same date, the 31st of July, while in your

24     statement, in your handwritten statement attached to this document, you

25     discuss, you explain what happened on the 27th of July, when unidentified

Page 10924

 1     person together working with journalists came and asked you to give a

 2     statement, so were you trying to say or is it your testimony that --

 3     well, sorry.  Let me put it this way --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think you must ask a question.

 5             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, exactly.  Sorry, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't testify.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   So is this statement the handwritten statement attached to this

 9     document, the one dated 31st of July, is that the statement you gave to

10     the security officers of the infirmary to explained what happened --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask questions.

12             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, I'm asking if it's two different statements

13     that we're discussing.  One --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One question at a time.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay.

16        Q.   So, sir, maybe if we can go to the second page of this document

17     so that the handwritten statement appears on the -- on the screen?

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.  Go how you want to go, but please ask

19     questions, Madam D'Ascoli.

20             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes.

21        Q.   Sir, is this handwritten statement the statement that you gave to

22     the security officer of the infirmary to explain what happened some days

23     before?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I had to give this statement under duress,

25     despite my wishes.  And this statement is incomplete.  It is true that it

Page 10925

 1     was given to the men who provided the previous document, in which it says

 2     that it is incomplete.

 3        Q.   Witness, my question is:  Are we talking about two different

 4     events and two different statements:  This one that you gave to the

 5     officers of the infirmary, because they -- to explain what happened; and

 6     a separate one that you referred to in this statement, that was the one

 7     that the -- the unidentified person and the journalists asked from you.

 8     Are we talking about two different statements?

 9        A.   Yes.  The second statement signed by the 2nd Corps was not the

10     one I gave.  This one I gave under duress, and it's inconsistent with

11     that, but since I was in the garrison infirmary, he came to see me and

12     said, You must give a statement to me because I'm a security officer here

13     who must obtain information.

14             So this is my statement.  And I think it's one and the same

15     statement; only he inserted a reservation there that it was incomplete.

16        Q.   When you said this is not consistent with the -- with the

17     previous one, you mean with the statement that you gave to the

18     journalist?

19        A.   The statement that is on the screen now was not the one I gave to

20     the journalist but, rather, to Smajo Elezovic, a security officer at the

21     infirmary.  And one can see that the previous document was signed by

22     Major Elezovic.  Only the paper that is handwritten is the one that I

23     provided.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Well, Your Honours, I would add this document -- I

Page 10926

 1     would tender this document into evidence.  I don't think there's a way of

 2     adding it to the previous one so I would just tender it as a separate

 3     Prosecution Exhibit.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine, Your Honour, no objection.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] sorry.  Is this

 6     document 28893.  That's what you called earlier.

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours, that's a correct 65 ter number.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  28893 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Under seal.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May it please be admitted into evidence and given

11     a number under seal.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28893 receives number P1441,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Under seal.

15             Now, Witness, when you say you wrote this statement under duress,

16     did the person or persons who were forcing you, tell you what to write?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no. They gave me a piece of

18     paper and told me to write a statement about what I had lived through.  I

19     started writing --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You answered my question.  Thank you so much.

21             Yes, madam, you may proceed.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

23        Q.   Sir, during cross-examination yesterday, you refer a number of

24     times to your mental psychological state after the execution you survived

25     and while you were at the infirmary in Tuzla.

Page 10927

 1             Can you tell us for how long overall you were in the infirmary

 2     for your wound and how long did it take you to recover physically and to

 3     fell better emotionally?

 4        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I think that I stayed at the

 5     garrison infirmary about two and a half weeks.  After that, I was

 6     discharged, but I had to go to the closest local clinic to have my wound

 7     bandaged.  We were all displaced, and I have to say that after everything

 8     that I went through, the situation is not improving.  I am still feeling

 9     more and more ...

10        Q.   Do you want to complete the answer?  I just see, "I am still

11     feeling more and more ..."

12        A.   Well, both physically and mentally.  I need to undergo a surgery.

13     But what can I tell you?  For as long as I can sustain as it is now, I

14     will try to move on and -- with my life.

15        Q.   I understand, sir.  Can you tell us how the situation was like

16     when you arrived at the Tuzla infirmary?  Were there many wounded?  Was

17     the situation -- how was the situation like.

18        A.   The situation was chaotic.  The wounded were arriving virtually

19     every minute.  The Gradina Medical Centre was overbooked.  We couldn't be

20     admitted there, so they moved us to the infirmary where the doctors

21     provided medical assistance to us, and documents can confirm that it was

22     the BH Army who did it.

23             So what else can I say?  Everything was chaotic.  Nobody knew

24     exactly what to do.  They used all these forms to provide discharge

25     sheets.  There was a lot of discussion about that, and so on and so

Page 10928

 1     forth.

 2        Q.   When they took care of you and of your wound, did you tell the

 3     doctors or whomever assisted you, the date when you were wounded?

 4        A.   Yes, I told them the date when I was wounded.  When I received

 5     the first proper care at Gradina, I remember the surgeon shouting at me

 6     and asking me, Why did you wait so long?  I just felt that he was making

 7     incisions around the bones because the wound was already old, and that's

 8     all that I can remember.

 9             I remember that at 10.00 I was taken to the garrison infirmary

10     and that if I needed another surgery the next day they would send me back

11     to Gradina.  I stayed there for a week bedridden, and, after that, I had

12     to use crutches.

13        Q.   So you said you told them about the day.  Which is what -- what

14     did you tell them?  When your -- when you were wounded, which day you --

15     did you tell them that happened.

16        A.   I told them that on the second day after the breakthrough, I was

17     captured on the morning of the 13th, and that in the afternoon of that

18     same day, I was shot, and that on the 13th I was alone in the forest, and

19     that on the 14th, I headed off towards Goldric [phoen] and I described my

20     trip.

21        Q.   Yes.  And as you testified also yesterday, I think you said the

22     executions by the Jadar river happened some time between 10.00 or 11.00,

23     before 12 -- 12.00 in the morning of the 13th; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   Sir, my colleague Mr. Ivetic also spent quite some time going

Page 10929

 1     through your prior statements and transcripts and discussing different

 2     issues from both statements and transcripts.

 3             Now, out of those discussed yesterday, there are two inaccuracies

 4     related to -- brought to your attention yesterday and related to your

 5     ICTY statement of 16 August 1995 now marked with -- as P1435.

 6             So I want to recapitulate these inconsistencies, you know, to

 7     make -- just to have a clean record.  The first one was your occupation,

 8     well, current occupation back in 1995 which was recorded on the front

 9     page of the ICTY statement as member of the Bosnian army, soldier, and

10     yesterday you said this was incorrect.  So this was the first one?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam D'Ascoli, I have a concern that your prefix

12     to your questions are just so long.

13             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You could just asked this witness --

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  [Overlapping speakers]

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In one of your statements this is what they say

17     your job is.  Can you explain that.  Okay?  Just ask him to explain the

18     job, member of the --

19             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Well, I think the witness explained the job, so my

20     question was a different one.  I was just recapitulating for the record.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Put the question.  Put a different question.

22             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Okay.

23        Q.   So, sir, now, besides these two inaccuracies in your ICTY

24     statement, can you tell us if these are so fundamental to impact the

25     substance and the core parts of your evidence about events at

Page 10930

 1     Konjevic Polje and the shooting at the Jadar river of which you are a

 2     survivor?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I think that is asking for a legal conclusion.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I still don't know what counsel is asking:

 6     Besides these --

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  [Overlapping speakers]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- two inaccuracies in your statement and the core

 9     part of your evidence about events at Konjevic Polje and the shooting at

10     the Jadar river, I'm not sure what --

11             This has nothing to do with the job --

12             MS. D'ASCOLI: [Overlapping speakers] Your Honours, I'm asking --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- title as explained on the statement, which I

14     thought is what you were going to ask about.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Your Honour, my question was whether besides those

16     two inaccuracies which was our -- which I was recapitulating for the

17     record, but then I'm skipping that part, besides, you know, and

18     considering those two inaccuracies, if the substance of the statement in

19     relation to the events at Konjevic Polje, the execution on the Jadar

20     river which he survived, if that fundamental part is correct.  And if you

21     stand by that, by the evidence in your statement?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Re-examination is not for reasserting what you

23     have said but for clarifying any things that need clarification.  We know

24     that.  One, you don't have to recapitulate.  We've got it on the record.

25     You're duplicating the record.  Two, he has not being cross-examined on

Page 10931

 1     the substance of events that took place, and therefore there is no need

 2     for you to ask him whether he stands by that.

 3             But, anyway, carry on, Madam D'Ascoli.

 4             MS. D'ASCOLI:

 5        Q.   Well, my question was whether the witness stands by the

 6     truthfulness and accuracy of the evidence that you, sir, provided in your

 7     ICTY statements.

 8             After I get an answer, then I rest my re-examination.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask for the answer, ma'am.

10             MS. D'ASCOLI:

11        Q.   Sir, do you stand by the truthfulness of the evidence provided in

12     your ICTY statements, the three that we discussed yesterday?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  I stand by those statements.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  That concludes my re-examination, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam D'Ascoli.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. RM314, that brings us to the end of your

19     testimony.  The Chamber would like to thank you very much for coming to

20     testify.  We understand that you've testified in a number of cases and

21     you probably are getting tired of coming here.  We appreciate that once

22     again you've come.  We wish you a safe trip back home.  You may now stand

23     down.  You are excused from further attending.

24             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

25                           [Closed session]

Page 10932

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 10933

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam D'Ascoli.

 3             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, Your Honours.  There's still the issue of the

 4     three MFI statement of the witness.  P1435, 1436, and 1437.  I would ask

 5     them to be admitted into evidence, considering -- after, you know, the

 6     witness was cross-examined on those statements by the Defence counsel.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, we made our submissions in writing and

 9     orally yesterday.  I don't need to burden you with repeating them.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  The three statements 1435,

11     6, and 7 are admitted, and then marked for identification.  Status may be

12     removed.  May they be kept under seal.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Anything else, Madam D'Ascoli.

15             MS. D'ASCOLI:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.  If I may be

16     excused.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Hochhauser, are you ready to call your next

18     witness.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm told we need to go into closed session again

23     for this witness.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's correct.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we please go into closed session.

Page 10934

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, ma'am.

17             Good afternoon, Witness RM297.  You have asked for --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: -- protective measures.  I wanted to just remind

20     you that because of the protective measures you asked for we're not going

21     to call you by your name.  We're going to call you by your pseudonym.  We

22     will be calling you RM297.  The other protective measures that you have

23     is that of face distortion so your face will not be seen by people

24     outside this courtroom.

25             You understand that?

Page 10935

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Can you then please make the

 3     declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing else.  And

 4     please stand up.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  RM297

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  You may now be seated.  You

10     will now be examined by Madam Hochhauser who is the representative for

11     the Prosecution.  She is to your right.

12             Madam Hochhauser.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours,

14     counsel.

15                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

16        Q.   Good morning, Witness RM297.  As the Chamber has just informed

17     you that will be how we refer to you in this courtroom.  If we could have

18     65 ter number 28879 on the monitor, please, not to be broadcast.

19             And, Witness, when you are able to see what's on the monitor in

20     front of you, can you confirm for the Chamber whether that accurately

21     records your name and date of birth.

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I would tender this under seal.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's admitted into evidence.  28879 under seal,

25     may it please be given an exhibit number.

Page 10936

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28879 receives number P1442, under seal,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        Q.   And you have also given statements to the

10     Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal on several occasions, including

11     statements dated 20 August 1996, 14 June 2001, and 13 and 14 August 1995;

12     is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please have 65 ter 28878 on the

15     monitor, also not to be broadcast outside of the courtroom, please.

16        Q.   Now, as this is coming up on the monitor, I'll ask you whether

17     yesterday you had an opportunity to review the statement dated 13 to

18     14 August 1995?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And now --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, looking at the monitor, do you recognise that to be that --

23     what's showing on the monitor now, to be that statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now yesterday in reviewing this statement, you noticed that in

Page 10937

 1     the B/C/S translation, there were two translation errors which you

 2     corrected.  First, at page 2, paragraph 2 --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- of B/C/S -- I'm just going complete the question before -- I

 5     know that you suspect already what I'm going to ask you, but if you can

 6     let me put the full question to you.

 7             First at page 2 paragraph 2 in the B/C/S where it gives the date

 8     for the fall of Srebrenica, it should read "11 July" not "1 July"; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   And, secondly, on page 3 of the B/C/S, in the last sentence of

12     the third paragraph on the page, the sentence referring to

13     General Mladic, it should read "after he finished his speech, the

14     prisoners said thank you, commander," where it now reads in the

15     translation "his soldiers," instead of "prisoners"; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] of those were correct in the English.

18             So also in your statement -- in this statement, at page 3 in the

19     English and B/C/S -- in both English and B/C/S, you talk about your

20     brother whose first name appears in the statement, and you describe that

21     you were separated from him in the Sandici meadow when you were ordered

22     onto trucks and have not had news of him since.

23             Now without saying his name because it is written in the

24     statement, can you tell the Chamber if you've had any more recent

25     information on your brother than the time that you made this statement?

Page 10938

 1        A.   Well, yes.  They say that they found some of his bones but the

 2     mortal remains are not complete.

 3        Q.   But you were informed that -- that some of his remains were

 4     identified; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   Now, other than -- well, and actually -- again without saying

 7     your brother's name, the first name of which appears in the statement,

 8     does he share the last -- the same last name as you do?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, other than these two translation corrections and the

11     additional piece of information that we've just discussed, are there any

12     other changes or corrections that you would make to the statement after

13     having reviewed it?

14        A.   I don't think so.

15        Q.   So if you were asked the same questions today that you were asked

16     when you gave that statement back in 1995, would you provide the same

17     information?

18        A.   I think I would provide the same information.

19        Q.   Okay.  In substance, even if not the exact same language, the

20     same substantive information.

21        A.   Well, one cannot repeat each and every word.

22        Q.   Okay.  But the substance of what you would say, it would be the

23     same; is that right?

24        A.   Of course.

25        Q.   And is the information in that statement both truthful and

Page 10939

 1     accurate, to the best of your recollection?

 2        A.   It definitely is.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 4     be asked to move closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 6        Q.   Witness, I don't know if you can hear the note, but the

 7     interpreters are asking you to move your chair a little bit closer to the

 8     microphone.  They're having a little bit of trouble hearing you.  Closer.

 9     Closer to it.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Court Usher, can you help the witness there to

11     make sure he gets closer to the microphone.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.  Okay.  Your Honours, at this point I

13     would tender 65 ter 28878 into evidence under seal.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  28878 is admitted into evidence.  May it please be

15     given an exhibit number under seal.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28878 receives number P1443, under seal,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

19             Yes, Madam Hochhauser.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I

21     would like to read a summary of the witness's evidence for the public.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may go ahead, ma'am.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  On 14th March of 1993 after being forced from

24     him home municipality, RM297 and his two brothers moved to the protected

25     enclave of Srebrenica where they remained until the fall of that enclave

Page 10940

 1     on 11 July 1995.

 2             On that date, the witness and one of his brothers decided to join

 3     the other able-bodied men in escaping through the woods.  They assembled

 4     with thousands of other Muslim men in the nearby village of Susnjari,

 5     which if I've mispronounced is S-u-s-n-j-a-r-i.

 6             On 12 July, the witness and this -- and this group of Muslim men

 7     set off in a long column.  The witness split off from the main column

 8     with a group of about a thousand men who were mostly civilians, a few

 9     soldiers, and some wounded.

10             As they were in the woods, Bosnian Serb soldiers called to the

11     Muslim men to surrender and promised that if they did, they would stay

12     alive.  After one night in the woods, the witness and the men he was with

13     surrendered in a meadow to a group of soldiers wearing the insignia of

14     the Army of Republika Srpska.  They were held in that meadow where in the

15     afternoon General Mladic came and addressed the witness and other

16     prisoners, promising them that they would be exchanged.  Later that same

17     evening, the prisoners were boarded onto buses and trucks and were taken

18     to Bratunac.  The witness spent that night, 13 into 14 July, inside of a

19     truck parked outside of the Vihor garages.  During the night, soldiers

20     shouted out for prisoners from certain villages, and those who answered

21     were taken off the trucks.  RM297 could hear the sounds of beating,

22     screams, shots being fired, and those prisoners were not seen by him

23     again.

24             The next day, 14 July, the trucks and buses left Bratunac in a

25     long convoy of vehicles, and the witness was brought with the other men

Page 10941

 1     to the elementary school in Orahovac.

 2             The witness estimates that when people stopped filing in, the gym

 3     held approximately 1.000 men and the prisoners were all packed together

 4     tightly against each other.

 5             When one prisoner yelled out that they should not be killed, that

 6     prisoner was taken out of the hall.  The witness heard shots and screams

 7     and that prisoner was never seen again.  The men were eventually brought

 8     row by row to the exit of the gymnasium where they were each given a

 9     glass of water and blindfolded.  Once blindfolded, the prisoners were

10     told they were being taken to a camp in Bijeljina and they were loaded

11     onto trucks.  Instead the trucks drove the short distance to a field in

12     Orahovac and the witness, along with the other men he was with were told

13     to get off the truck.  The witness and the men he was with were lined up

14     in rows and shot at.  The witness managed to survive these executions by

15     feigning death as he lay under the body of another victim.

16             As he lay underneath and amongst the dead bodies, RM297 could

17     hear that approximately every 10 to 15 minutes, a new truck full of

18     prisoners would arrive, and those prisoners were executed, were killed,

19     in the same manner.

20             The witness could hear that this continued for hours.

21             After night-fall, as the witness lay still underneath -- still

22     underneath the dead bodies, he heard some of the executioners speaking to

23     one another and he recognised the first name and the distinctive voice of

24     Gojko Simic, a man that RM297 had known for years.  Later that night when

25     the soldiers were distracted, RM297 was able to escape into the woods.

Page 10942

 1     As he ran away he got turned around at one point and found himself back

 2     at the killing site and saw that the field was covered in bodies.  After

 3     several very difficult days of moving and hiding, RM297 managed to reach

 4     safety in Muslim held territory.

 5             And, Your Honours thank you for your patience with the length of

 6     that summary.  That concludes it.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Hochhauser.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if I may, I have a few questions for the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

12        Q.   Now, Witness RM297, as you know the Judges have already read your

13     statement and are very familiar with the information you put in it, so

14     I'm only going to ask you a few additional questions.

15             First, can you please tell the Judges why was it that you decided

16     to leave Srebrenica on the 11th of July?

17        A.   We decided to do that as we knew what was going to happen with

18     Srebrenica.  Srebrenica was not the only one.  There were several such

19     locations.  It's just that never else were 8- to 9.000 people killed in a

20     few days.  There was Visegrad, Vojnica, Foca, Prijedor, Sanski Most,

21     Kljuc and elsewhere.  The people there had a very similar experience to

22     ours.  It's just that such a large-scale genocide did not take place

23     anywhere else other than Srebrenica.

24        Q.   Sir, when you say "we knew," can you just tell us what it is

25     that you -- that you anticipated, what you feared was going to happen

Page 10943

 1     that made you leave?  And can I also ask you to slow down.

 2        A.   Well, you know, Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic are friends.

 3     And before Srebrenica fell, they said they would take revenge on

 4     Srebrenica.  The very fact that Ratko Mladic arrived there confirms that.

 5     He called Srebrenica Srpska, Serbian Srebrenica, and he promised to take

 6     revenge on the Turks and the janissaries.

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you some specific questions directed at

 8     specific parts of your testimony -- of your statement, okay?

 9             Can you -- on your -- excuse me.  In the statement which is now

10     in evidence as P1443 -- yes, as P1443, on page 4, in both languages, in

11     the third paragraph, you talk about --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have it on the screen, please,

13     Madam Hochhauser.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Under seal.  It should not be broadcast.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Under seal.  Thank you.

17             And it would be page 4 in both languages.

18        Q.   And as it's coming up, Witness I know this feels like jumping

19     around in -- in the statement and in -- in the whole story of what

20     happened to you, but if you can just try to focus on specifically what

21     I'm drawing your attention to, okay?

22             In page 4 in -- it's in the third paragraph in the English and

23     it's slightly lower down in the B/C/S, you discuss seeing a -- a

24     United Nations APC while you and the other men were being driven to the

25     gymnasium.  Can you tell the Chamber whether you ever saw that APC again

Page 10944

 1     later and what were the circumstances.

 2        A.   As we were going from the quarry in Zvornik to Divic, the people

 3     saw that an APC, an UN APC, was also part of the column.  When we arrived

 4     in Orahovac in the courtyard, they parked to the left.  There were two

 5     uniformed soldiers in UNPROFOR uniforms with automatic rifles.  Their

 6     rifles were not UNPROFOR rifles, though.  On the APC, it no longer read

 7     UNPROFOR but the letter C.  In the Cyrillic script, it is S.  There was a

 8     50-year-old man in civilian clothes probably trying to pass off as an

 9     interpreter.  They did not address us.  We were ordered to get off the

10     trucks and to run to the school building.  I had a leather jacket on.

11     The person standing some way away instructed us to leave our clothes on a

12     pile and he told me to leave my jacket there as well.  All of my

13     documents were in it.  We barged into the hallway and we turned left

14     after some 5 to 6 metres.  When we entered the hall it was already half

15     full or more than half.

16        Q.   Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Hochhauser, try to control your witness.

18             Witness, can we just try to answer the question that was put to

19     you.  You were asked:  Did you ever see that APC after that day.  Can you

20     give us that first?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you very much.  That's what you

23     asked, Madam Hochhauser, so you can't ask the next part of your question.

24     There would be no circumstances of seeing it again.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

Page 10945

 1        Q.   Sir, the APC in -- in the statement, you describe seeing it on

 2     the road.  Did you see it again at the gymnasium, that's the second time

 3     that you saw it, when you describe it was then painted with Cyrillic

 4     lettering on it?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who is testifying, Madam Hochhauser?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Judge, Your Honour, I'm not trying to testify.

 8     I'm trying to clarify what the witness said because he did address a

 9     second time and I understood from your question that that might not have

10     been clear.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

13        Q.   Now, I would like to ask you now several questions about your

14     treatment during the whole time-period that you were detained.  So from

15     the meadow until you made your escape from the pit in Orahovac, okay?  So

16     that's the time-period that I'm addressing.

17             Did you, during that time-period, ever see or hear any of the

18     Serb soldiers take names or write lists of names at any point during this

19     time period?

20        A.   No.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be a convenient time, Madam Hochhauser,

22     to take a break?

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, it would be fine, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

25             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

Page 10946

 1                           [Closed session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

21             Before you continue, Madam Hochhauser, I've got one little point

22     to raise here with the Defence.

23             Mr. Lukic, Mr. Groome said this morning - and it was in closed

24     session unfortunately - there are -- said something about

25     Witness Riedlmayer, and what the Chamber would like to know is do you

Page 10947

 1     still need the 30-day extension of time starting from today, when is the

 2     day you are now being provided with the translation, or are you

 3     comfortable to meet the deadline?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thirty days from today, Your Honour.  Thirty days

 5     from today.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Then 30 days from today we give you.  The

 7     deadline is then set at 10 June.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

10             Madam Hochhauser, you may proceed.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12              If we can please have the statement, P1443, back up on the

13     monitor, not to be broadcast.  And it's at page 3.

14        Q.   In what is the second -- sorry, I would describe it as the second

15     full paragraph in the English, and the first large -- large paragraph in

16     the B/C/S version.

17             You describe in that portion of your statement being in the

18     meadow and Mr. Mladic arriving.  And it says there:

19             "He promised us we would get some water."

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you receive any water after that?

22        A.   Well, yes.  We had been receiving water before Mladic's arrival.

23     But he told us that we would be going to the hangars, that we would not

24     be given any supper, only water.

25        Q.   And after seeing him -- after that exchange with -- excuse me.

Page 10948

 1     After being addressed by Mr. Mladic when you were brought to the

 2     gymnasium, were you given any food or water?

 3        A.   No.  Well, we did receive water but not enough.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us, please, and I'm referring to the entire time of

 5     your detention, from the time -- from the meadow when you first

 6     surrendered yourself until the -- the execution field, so that whole

 7     period.  Can you tell -- can you describe, please, how the Serb soldiers

 8     spoke to you and the other prisoners?  What kind of language was used?

 9        A.   They only swore at our Turkish and Balija mothers.  Otherwise,

10     they did not insult us in any other way.  The soldier who had a black

11     scarf, he said to every group that arrived, that the governments were in

12     negotiations and that there will be an exchange, all for all.

13        Q.   And when you say "they only swore at our Turkish and Balija

14     mothers," was that -- can you describe the circumstances of that?

15        A.   Well, of course, they swore at our Turkish and Balija mothers,

16     saying that this was the Serbian land, and that the Serbian army was

17     invincible.  We were forced to keep silent, but we know very well how

18     difficult it was.

19        Q.   Turning specifically to the time-period of the executions in the

20     field, can you tell us if you heard any exchanges between wounded men and

21     the Serb soldiers who had been shooting them; and, if so, what was said,

22     what you heard?

23        A.   There was a seriously injured man.  He asked to be finished off.

24     Only God knows how he felt.  One of the Serb soldiers, because, of

25     course, all of us were lying prostrate on the ground, the -- he just

Page 10949

 1     said, Slowly, slowly.

 2        Q.   When you say "he said, Slowly, slowly," who said?  The wounded

 3     person or someone else?

 4        A.   One of the Serb soldiers.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please have on the monitor, P1132,

 6     which is the book of photographs, maps and aerials used with Witness

 7     Jean-Rene Ruez.  And if we could begin at page 129 in e-court, and I

 8     don't know if anybody else has available to them the hard copy of that

 9     exhibit.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not in court here, but ...

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  So then page 129 in e-court, please.

12        Q.   Witness, can you -- Witness, in June of 1999, did you accompany

13     Investigator Ruez from the OTP to certain sites described in your

14     statement?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now I'll ask you to look at what is now on the monitor.  And if

17     we could please show --

18        A.   Yes.  That's the school.  In this narrow part --

19        Q.   Witness, I'm not going to ask you to mark anything on it.  If you

20     can put down the pen for one second.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm going to ask, please, if we can display page

22     129 and then flip to 130, through 133, so the witness has an opportunity

23     to see each of those photographs, in turn.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I need to show you something?

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

Page 10950

 1        Q.   I'm going ask you as you look at these to tell us whether those

 2     are locations that you went to with Investigator Ruez.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And are those the locations that you pointed out as having been

 5     described in your statement?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, if we could please turn to page 134 of this exhibit in

 8     e-court.  Can you tell us what it is that we're looking at in this

 9     photograph?

10        A.   Well, these are the bullet-holes fired by the soldiers who were

11     standing at the door.

12        Q.   All right.  And what were the circumstances in which those shots

13     were being fired?

14        A.   Well, there was a commotion among the people, it was very hot,

15     there was not enough air, and they fired these warning shots from the

16     door.

17        Q.   If we could please turn to page 142 and 143 in e-court.  And,

18     Witness, can you tell us if you recognise this location -- the location

19     that's shown on pages 142 and 143 of Exhibit P1132?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And from where?

22        A.   Because when I escaped, I ran across the railway track.  Because

23     when we first arrived, I didn't know the place where we came.

24        Q.   And did you point out those locations to Investigator Ruez as --

25     as the field that you had been in?

Page 10951

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now, Your Honours, if we could move briefly into

 3     private session for a series of questions that might have some personal

 4     detail in the answers.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10952











11 Page 10952 redacted. Private session.















Page 10953

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

21             When you are ready, you may start, Mr. Lukic.

22             Witness 297, you're now going to be examined by Defence counsel,

23     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

Page 10954

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are hearing a buzzing

 2     sound in our earphones.  Can something be done about it?  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, if you can help.

 4             Witness, did you -- can you hear the lawyer in a language you

 5     understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He said to you good afternoon.  I didn't hear you

 8     answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said good afternoon.  But maybe

10     not loud enough.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             You may proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir, both of us speak the same or similar language, so kindly

15     wait for a while after my question and I will wait a while after your

16     answer so that everything can be recorded.

17             Let me start with the period quite before the events that are the

18     core of your testimony, and gradually we'll come to that.

19             You used to be a member of the armed forces after the start of

20     the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   At that time, both your bothers were alive.

23        A.   Yes.  Actually, I had three brothers.

24        Q.   One of your brothers was killed in 1992.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10955

 1        Q.   Your brothers were also members of the Territorial Defence in

 2     your native town.  I'm not going to mention the name.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Were you and your brothers at that time served any call-up papers

 5     to the JNA?

 6        A.   No.  But, Mr. Lukic, there was no JNA at the time.  JNA was

 7     extinguished in the early 1990s.  Immediately after the separation of,

 8     first, Croatia and Slovenia, and then Macedonia and Bosnia, the JNA

 9     ceased to exist.

10        Q.   Did other people receive call-up papers in 1991 and 1992?

11        A.   No, no.

12        Q.   The units that you belonged to after the beginning of the war

13     were not under JNA command.

14        A.   No, they were not.

15        Q.   At the time, just like all other members of your nation, a kind

16     of mistrust towards the JNA?

17        A.   Well, of course.  We could have been the JNA only during the

18     period of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia when everybody

19     respected one single constitution and one single law, regardless of

20     whether it was Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, Vojvodina,

21     et cetera.  We had one single army and we trusted it, but this

22     unfortunate army of ours was the one who killed us.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, I'm going to ask you to slow down.  I can

24     hear the interpreter rushing very much trying to keep a pace with you.

25     So if you could slow down when you answer questions, please.  Thank you.

Page 10956

 1             Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   You felt mistrust towards the Serbs as well at the time; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   No.  We conducted negotiations with our Serb neighbours.  We make

 6     agreement that, let's say, tonight a Serb will keep guard and then the

 7     Muslim would come to replace him.  However, when the Muslim comes, the

 8     Serb was not there, and that is the reason why we lost our trust in them.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that in that period there was a

10     disruption in interethnic relations in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Well, of course.  There would not have been any disruption of

12     that kind had it not been for this Serbia of yours and that army which

13     you prefer to call the Yugoslav People's Army.

14        Q.   In your area, did you receive any instructions from the Muslim

15     political leadership not to join the JNA?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Can we please have 1D958 in e-court.  I'm going to show you your

18     testimony in the Karadzic case in order to refresh your memory about what

19     you said on that occasion.  I need page 25 in e-court, and then we'll

20     move to the next page, which is 1363, transcript page lines 24 and 25,

21     and then the first two lines on the next page.

22             I'm going to read in English so that can you receive an

23     interpretation:

24             [In English] "Q.  The question was whether Muslim soldiers and

25     officers were leaving the JNA pursuant to instructions of your leadership

Page 10957

 1     and did your leadership prevent the response to the call-up."

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We're trying to find this.  I'm not finding it,

 3     Mr. Lukic.  If you can tell us again the number.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Line 24.  And it starts ...

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Line 24 on this page says something else.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Twenty-five, sorry.

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The transcripts read -- transcript reads that

 8     you were calling our attention to page 1363 of the original transcript.

 9     That is not what is actually being shown on the monitor.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can I see the top of the page, please.  Then we have

11     to move 30 pages ahead.  If this is page 25, then we need 55.

12             Now we can see.  I -- thank you.  Now we can see at line 24 the

13     question was:

14             "Whether Muslim soldiers and officers were leaving the JNA

15     pursuant to instructions of your leadership, and did your leadership

16     prevent the response to the call-up?"

17             Answer --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If we can get the page turned over, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:

21        Q.   Answer, line 3:

22             "A.  Yes, it did."

23              [Interpretation] Does it refresh your memory that you actually

24     confirmed --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers overlapped.

Page 10958

 1     Could Mr. Lukic repeat his question.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreters ask that you repeat

 3     your question because you are overlapping.  You're speaking all at the

 4     same time.  Can you please wait for each other to finish what one is

 5     saying before the other answers.

 6             Repeat your question Mr. Lukic, please.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Kindly wait for me to conclude my question.  Is it

 9     correct, therefore --

10        A.   It is correct.

11        Q.   Wait, please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, please wait for Mr. Lukic to finish

13     his question before you answer.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And make a pause, please, because the

15     interpreters need the time.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So let's try again.  Is it correct that your leadership provided

19     instructions to the effect that people should not respond to JNA

20     call-ups?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive instructions from the same leadership

23     to join Muslim armed formations?

24        A.   Well, to tell you directly, in our small towns and places where

25     we were, we did not have such instructions.

Page 10959

 1        Q.   Did you hear of something like that in the media?

 2        A.   Well, of course, everyone tried to protect themselves.

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina is the only state in the world that was attacked and

 4     that did not have an arm force and yet it was attacked by this strong,

 5     unfortunate JNA, which carried out an aggression with our own weapons

 6     against us.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You went one way, and your family the other, to

 8     Tuzla; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   As a matter of fact, you were withdrawing with your unit to

11     another position.

12        A.   No.  We did not withdraw with our unit.  We were withdrawing

13     because we were being driven away.

14        Q.   Later, you arrived in the area of Konjevic Polje; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it correct that in the territory that you reached in

17     Konjevic Polje, there were no Serbs left who had lived before -- who had

18     lived there before?

19        A.   In Konjevic Polje, there were no Serbs.  There were no Serbs in

20     Konjevic Polje but there is a church constructed on Muslim land.  I think

21     it must be the only place in the world where there are no people who

22     worship a particular religion and yet their church is there.

23        Q.   Is it your testimony today that your forces controlled the

24     territory in which, before that, there had not been a single Serb

25     village?

Page 10960

 1        A.   No, no.  There were Serb villages there.  But in Konjevic Polje

 2     itself, there were no Serbs.

 3        Q.   How did the Serbs from the villages where they lived before

 4     leave?  How did they come to leave?

 5        A.   It's well known how they left.  They attacked us from all sides

 6     and we had to -- well, because we were attacked from three sides, and we

 7     moved them.  They went away.  I don't know where to.  Whereas, the other

 8     two sides remained.

 9        Q.   When you say that you moved them, you mean you drove them away?

10        A.   Well, it may seem like that but we didn't --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  I'm just going to start

13     objecting to the general nature of these questions that are directed to

14     sort of general -- generalised events in the conflict, as opposed to this

15     witness's personal experience and knowledge during that time.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think that this witness does have this experience

18     and he is testify about his personal knowledge.  He tells us when

19     something in general he is not informed about.  But I can even rephrase

20     the question and ask him more specifically.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Go ahead.

22             Okay.  Carry on, Mr. Lukic, and please stay relevant to the

23     issues before us.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   Do you know how many Serbs were killed in the area controlled by

Page 10961

 1     your forces after your arrival?

 2        A.   I don't know exactly.

 3        Q.   After the Serbs left the area, you are familiar with a case in

 4     which Slobodan Stojanovic, a boy of 11, was killed.

 5        A.   As for the child, I am sorry for it because it was not to blame,

 6     but the rest of the Serbs were, in particular, his father and where the

 7     other Serbs were.  They did not want to send their children, but they

 8     sent that one child so that they would not lose their heads.

 9        Q.   Could we please see 1D961 in e-court.  In the Karadzic case, you

10     were shown this photograph.  Do you recognise the boy?

11        A.   Yes, this is the child.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We will just tender this into evidence, Your Honours.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm advised, Mr. Lukic, that there is an

15     attachment with writings attached to this photo.

16             MR. LUKIC:  There is a text newspaper's text.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure, so if you're tendering the photo maybe you

18     must tender it separately, upload it separately, because we tender the

19     photo only and not what is attached to it.

20             MR. LUKIC:  The gentleman confirmed what is in the text, in the

21     document.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  Not before us.  Where?  Where did he confirm

23     that?  He's just confirmed this photograph.

24             MR. LUKIC:  That he knows about the killing of this --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, no, no.  He knows about this chart.  And

Page 10962

 1     that's what you are tendering.  That's what we have seen.  We haven't

 2     seen any text.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Can we see the text of the document, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, go ahead.

 5             Why are we being shown a newspaper article now?

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's ...

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness testified about his knowledge about

 9     the fate of this child.  Isn't it -- that sufficient?  Why do we need a

10     newspaper article?  This has no -- not a specific relevance for our case.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I will ask additional question and maybe it will be

12     clear then.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, did you know that the boy was killed by a

14     woman, Elfete Veseli, a member of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   That's what I heard.  But, Mr. Lukic, if only one child were --

16     Muslim child were killed like this, it would have been much better.  One

17     must admit that he was a victim too, but when Bosniak children were being

18     killed none of you from Serbia put any captions saying, One executioner

19     or four one victim.  What about the 200.000?  What words should be used

20     for 200.000?  100, 600 children were killed in Sarajevo alone.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, Witness, Witness, Witness can I ask you

22     to please listen to the question carefully and just answer the question

23     that is put to you.  It is understandable that you might want to tell

24     your story, but, you know, we -- your story has been told elsewhere, but

25     here we would like to get answers to the questions that are put to you.

Page 10963

 1     We have very limited time.  I asked you to please listen carefully and

 2     just answer the question.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  And not say more.

 5             Yes, Mr. Lukic, please go on.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if the witness is going on, please stop him.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I will.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you heard the Court's instructions.  In

10     future, I will have to cut you off if you expand too much.

11        A.   You cut me off?  I have the right to say it.  And the Judge has

12     the right to cut me off.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay, okay, okay.  I'll do it then.

14             You go ahead.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who are you to cut me off?  Only

16     the Judges can.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you know that in Konjevic Polje -- well, you say that no

19     Serbs lived there, but I'll give you this example.  The father of

20     General Simic lived there.  General Simic was the commander of the

21     East Bosnia Corps.

22        A.   I don't know that.  What I do know is that some 30 years ago

23     there were only two houses on the right side coming from Drinjaca to the

24     town and there were two Serb houses there.  I think they sold them and

25     left.  I don't think there was a single Serb there.

Page 10964

 1        Q.   As one enters Konjevic Polje and the area there, one does not

 2     find a single Serb there.

 3        A.   I'm telling you that there were no Serbs.  Perhaps in Paljevici

 4     only or in Drinjaca but not in Konjevic Polje.  As far as I recall, that

 5     was so.  I did not reside there, but I don't think there was a single

 6     Serb house.

 7        Q.   So from there, you went to Srebrenica; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In your view, how many weapons were there in Srebrenica?

10        A.   Whatever weapons we had, we handed them over.  Some may have had;

11     some others didn't.  Unless people kept it hidden.  I guess UNPROFOR

12     would know how many pieces of weapons there were.  I don't know.

13        Q.   Can we have D270 in e-court.  You know who Ramiz Becirovic was?

14        A.   I didn't know him personally.  I was from another municipality,

15     and he was from Srebrenica.

16        Q.   Did you know that at the time he was Chief of Staff of the

17     28th Division of the land forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   It wasn't called division at the time.  It was established only

19     once Srebrenica fell.

20        Q.   We have a document dated the 11th of August, 1995, before us.

21     This is page 1.  This statement was taken from Mr. Becirovic.

22             We need page 4 in the B/C/S in e-court, and page 5 in the English

23     version.  Please look at the paragraph beginning with, "Once UNPROFOR

24     arrived."  Actually, no, the one after that:

25             "After we got those two agreements on the demilitarisation of

Page 10965

 1     Srebrenica, we had to disarm completely.  We barely managed to secure

 2     some older weapons in disrepair to hand over to UNPROFOR while the troops

 3     hid the rest at their homes.  It was a custom for the troops to keep

 4     their weapons at their homes and only exceptionally were they handed out

 5     to other troops at the line.  It was never permitted to have weapons

 6     grouped in one place."

 7             Would you allow for the possibility that Mr. Becirovic was better

 8     informed than you were in terms of what was going on with the weapons in

 9     Srebrenica?

10        A.   Well, if Mr. Becirovic was in that position, of course, he knew.

11     I didn't know.  I was just a fly on the wall.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You never went to the confrontation line, or did you?

13        A.   No.  I never went.  I did stand guard, but I never took part in

14     any operation or clash.

15        Q.   Did you know that in Konjevic Polje some drivers from the Glinica

16     company were killed?

17        A.   When?

18        Q.   In 1992.

19        A.   Well, this is the first I hear it, from you.  I didn't know about

20     that.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

22        Q.   I'd like you now to focus on the period when you and other men

23     assembled in Susnjari.

24             When you set off, you were at the rear of the column; is that

25     correct?

Page 10966

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Since you were at the rear, and you were walking behind the

 3     others, can you remember how many dead bodies you saw?

 4        A.   Immediately as we set off, there were five or six victims by a

 5     stream.  I don't know who had killed them.  And then, later on, when we

 6     came to a hill, there were at least dead bodies there -- 50 dead bodies

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Is it true that during your journey you saw around 500 dead

 9     bodies?

10        A.   I never said that.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D956 in e-court,

12     please.  We need page 844 of the transcript, which corresponds to page 13

13     in e-court.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was in private session, at least the top of

15     that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  We have to go to private session.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10967

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             MR. LUKIC:  I read lines from 10 to 12.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             Yes, Mr. Lukic, yeah.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Then we have to move to next page, 844, from the

20     transcript.  We need lines -- from lines -- from number 20, further on.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, that's now in private session, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So may the Chamber please move into private

25     session.

Page 10968

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10969











11 Page 10969 redacted. Private session.















Page 10970

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10971

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

17             That's right, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   While the column was on the move from Susnjari towards Tuzla, did

20     you notice that some people turned and went back towards Srebrenica and

21     Zepa?

22        A.   I didn't see them myself, but I did hear that some people

23     returned.

24        Q.   Alongside you in the column were some people in camouflage

25     uniforms.

Page 10972

 1        A.   Yes, there were a few of them.

 2        Q.   Do you know anything about the fighting that was going on during

 3     the moving of the column?

 4        A.   Probably in this pile of 50 dead bodies we knew nothing about

 5     that.  We, who were in the rear.

 6        Q.   You decided to surrender, and you went out onto the road where

 7     you were met by the Serb soldiers; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   As soon as you appeared, they asked you -- you to give them

10     money.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you have a feeling then that they are being involved in some

13     criminal activities?

14        A.   Well, they were involved in crime throughout the war.  They never

15     did any -- any honest thing.

16        Q.   When you surrendered, where were you in the column?  Were you

17     still in the rear?  Were you in the middle?  Or at the head?

18        A.   Well, let me tell you, I think I was somewhere in the middle.

19        Q.   After a while, the people who were guarding you rotated; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what were you told about these newcomers?

23        A.   When the rotation came, the man with the black scarf said, These

24     are Arkan's Men.  I didn't see any specific insignia.  I only noticed

25     that they wore new camouflage uniforms.

Page 10973

 1        Q.   After you were taken prisoner, you were -- you were taken to a

 2     meadow in Sandici and that is where you were told to sit down on the

 3     ground; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You were sitting in rows about 20 metres long; is that correct?

 6        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, maybe less, maybe more.  I wasn't

 7     able to assess this exactly.  If I had known that things will come to

 8     this, I would have tried to remember them better.

 9        Q.   It's all right.  This is a rough estimate, and thank you for

10     that.

11             So, at the end of the day, when all the people gathered together,

12     can you tell us how many rows were there?

13        A.   Well there were many of them.  I cannot tell you now how many

14     rows there were, but there were quite a few of them.

15        Q.   Well, it's all right.  If you can't do it, fine.

16             There were some women and -- and -- young women with you when you

17     surrendered; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   They were allowed to board the buses; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   There were also boys under the age of 15 with you as well; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And they were also allowed to leave.

25        A.   Well, when they released woman and the child of about 10 years of

Page 10974

 1     ages and two young girls, one of them who was the prettier one, the

 2     soldiers shouted at the one with the black scarf, Leave her, we might

 3     need her.  But he kept quiet, didn't make any comment and said, There's a

 4     bus down there.  And he told some boys to join them.  Some dozen boys who

 5     were maybe of my height but very young went down there.  There was one of

 6     them to was very tall, but he was told that he should sit down because he

 7     was capable of carrying a machine-gun, and after that, he did not let

 8     anyone else go.

 9        Q.   It hasn't been recorded as some dozen young boys were allowed to

10     board the buses; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You said that at one point, General Mladic appeared.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You were told by someone who was with you, because you personally

15     didn't recognise him.

16        A.   When Ratko Mladic and a group of officers or ordinary soldiers

17     came with him, the people in the rows started shouting, Here comes

18     General Mladic.

19             I hadn't seen Ratko Mladic before.  When I reached the free

20     territory in Tuzla and I saw him on TV, I was 100 per cent sure that it

21     was him.

22        Q.   You say that when he addressed you -- well, in doing so, did he

23     insult any of people assembled there?

24        A.   No.  He came at dusk, and he said, Good evening, neighbours.  And

25     we said, Good evening.  He told us the governments are in negotiations

Page 10975

 1     and tomorrow you will be exchanged all for all.  We said, Thank you,

 2     commander and we applauded.  After that he said, You will go to the

 3     hangars, you will have water, but there will be no dinner.  After he

 4     left, I don't know if it was an order or not, but the first row started

 5     boarding the vehicles and the second and the third, and when it was my

 6     turn to go, I went down to the truck and they told us, get on the

 7     trailer.  It was the kind of truck which transports raw materials from

 8     mines with high trailers and sides.  I saw a young man in uniform,

 9     perhaps around 30, with a goatee and a black Serbian cap with the

10     kokarde, and he said, I will go with this one, meaning with this vehicle,

11     and the driver.

12        Q.   To go back to the movement of the column before the surrender, I

13     omitted a question.  Did you see any people in the column committing

14     suicide?

15        A.   Up there in the forest, I saw a man kill himself.  It was not

16     en route, but when we were up there and while they were inviting us to

17     surrender.

18        Q.   After that, you were transported to Bratunac.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Today you said the soldiers shouted out names and took some

21     people away.

22        A.   No, not soldiers.  People would approach a bus or a truck and ask

23     if there were people -- people from Bljecevo, Potocari, Glogova or

24     Usmolici [phoen].  If somebody responded they asked for his name and his

25     father's name and then they would take him away.

Page 10976

 1             When we arrived there, there was a driver who was driving some

 2     supplies up to the people.  He had a truck without registration plates.

 3     I -- he said it was from a Vihor garage.  I don't know even know whether

 4     that is the case.  In any case, on one side there were garages and on the

 5     others some buildings.  When we arrived there, a boy peaked through the

 6     curtains and an elderly woman shooed him away.  When they took people

 7     away we could hear blunt blows and moans, and then they would say, Stop

 8     it, stop it.  And one could hear a burst of fire and it all fell silent.

 9     It went like that throughout the night.  I don't know how late in the

10     evening or at night it was, but a Serb soldier approached our truck and

11     asked if there were people from Srebrenica.  There was a man sitting in

12     the nearest corner to him and who got up and he said, I am.  The question

13     was, What village were you from.  And the man answered, From Ljeskovik.

14     And he didn't want him to take him away.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last short

16     sentence.  We did not catch it.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The interpreters didn't hear the last short

18     sentence that you gave right at the end of your answer.  Could you please

19     repeat that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question for me?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] yes.  You said:

22             "There was a man sitting in the nearest corner nearest to him and

23     who got up and he said, I am."

24             And then "want to take him away."  We don't know -- you didn't

25     finish that.

Page 10977

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That man, since he was quite close

 2     to the trailer, that man was close to the soldier and when he asked if

 3     there was someone from Srebrenica, the man said, I am.  And I know the

 4     man by his first and last name.  I used to know him.  He asked him from

 5     what village he was, and he said from Ljeskovik, so it means that they

 6     didn't want any people from that village.  He told him to sit down and

 7     the same man ended up in Orahovac.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thanks.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] In your view, how many people were taken away in

11     Bratunac, in that way?

12        A.   Maybe 100 or 200.  I have no idea.  It lasted the whole night.

13     They didn't take people dozen by dozen, but one by one.  Some were hit

14     with rifle-butts.  One of them was being told that he would have to sing

15     the songs from an entire cassette tape.  I have no idea what cassette

16     tape they were talking about, and I don't know who the man was.

17        Q.   When you left Bratunac, could you hear someone shouting that they

18     should wait for UNPROFOR?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So you waited another two or three hours at the place they said

21     UNPROFOR should be waited for, so you were stopped and waited a few

22     hours?

23        A.   Well, we waited for maybe two, three, four hours.  In any case,

24     it was long.  It was very hot.  The sides of the trailer were made of

25     metal and luckily the driver brought us some food as well, some water as

Page 10978

 1     well.  A boy of 15 or 16 from Bratunac who brought us some water too.  He

 2     was quite well built and he asked for Ismet Ramic, who was a shoemaker

 3     from Bratunac.  The people wanted to know why he was looking for that

 4     man, and the boy answered, He is my neighbour.

 5        Q.   Did UNPROFOR representatives show up?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I'll ask you about the moment of your arrival in Orahovac at the

 8     Grbovci school; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, some call it Orahovac, other Grbovci.  That's how people

10     refer to it.  I used to know it as Grbovci rather than Orahovac.

11        Q.   In the gym where you were put in, all of the people were seated

12     on the floor; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Among you there were four boys; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  The boys were separated.  Closest to the door.  They were

16     given a blanket, whereas the rest of us were not.  In my view, one of

17     them was so young that he wasn't older than 10.  Judging by his stature,

18     he was about 10 years old, whereas, there was another boy of 11 who

19     weighed as much as 60 kilo.

20        Q.   What happened with the boys?

21        A.   When I reached the free territory, I asked whether four children

22     had been released, and they said that they had.  If not, I can tell you

23     that they were killing everyone from 10 to 70 years of age.  I know a

24     neighbour of mine from my village who was 70.  And there may have been

25     older people than that whom I didn't know.

Page 10979

 1        Q.   You did not count the people in the gym.

 2        A.   I didn't.

 3        Q.   The people who guarded you in the Orahovac gym, did they

 4     introduce themselves?

 5        A.   The ones that stood at the door with the weapons that were very

 6     young, most of them held rifles like this.  When someone spoke to them,

 7     saying, soldier, they would respond, We are not soldiers.  We are

 8     Karadzic's Chetniks.  It's just that we don't have any beards.

 9             They were all very young, and I don't think that they could grown

10     beards, in any case.

11        Q.   As a matter of fact, you didn't know who those people guarding

12     you belonged to.

13        A.   They belonged to the Serbs.  Who else?  They were Serbs.

14        Q.   Perhaps I didn't formulate the question quite properly.  Did you

15     know what unit they belonged to?

16        A.   No, we didn't.  We were not familiar with any particular unit of

17     the VRS.

18        Q.   Let's now go forward in time, in 1999, when you were on-site with

19     Mr. Ruez.  Would you agree with me that, at that point in time, you did

20     not manage to locate the execution site.  Mr. Ruez took you there.

21        A.   I did recognise the location.  It's just that -- well, I don't

22     know where exactly I lay.  In any case, on the other side of the railroad

23     there was a corn field.  I ran through the corn field.  When we came to

24     the location, the corn had already been reaped, and only stalks were

25     left, swaying in the wind.

Page 10980

 1        Q.   So what are you saying?  Could you or could you not recognise the

 2     location?

 3        A.   I recognised it.  But, Mr. Lukic, let me tell you this:  If I

 4     blindfold you, if I put you under a tarpaulin on a truck and let you out

 5     somewhere you had never been before and then bring you back four years

 6     later, you wouldn't recognise it either.  I never saw it before.  I only

 7     saw it from the other side of the railroad from the corn field.  I was

 8     brought there blindfolded under a tarpaulin, and you wouldn't know

 9     either, I'm sure.

10        Q.   I am not blaming you for anything.  I'm just asking whether you

11     would agree that you couldn't recognise the location when you went there

12     with Mr. Ruez.

13        A.   I recognised the location.  But I never saw that plot with my

14     bare eyes until then and even when I took off the blindfold, it was dark.

15        Q.   Fine.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In that case we'll have to bring up

17     1D955.  We had some problems with e-court yesterday, and that is why we

18     split the transcript in two parts.  This is the second part.  1D955.  We

19     need page 798, which is page 5 in e-court, in the second part.  We're

20     interested in lines 23 through 25, as well as line 1 on the next page.

21             I apologise.  It must be the first part of the document, and

22     we're interested in page 783.  That is to say, page 5 in the first part.

23             Yes, lines 23 through 25.  I'll read it out in English:

24             [In English] "Q.  And my last question is that when you visited

25     the sites where the shootings took place -- and that was -- this question

Page 10981

 1     was asked by my colleague -- but you did not recognise those sites, did

 2     you?"

 3             Answer on the next page --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognised the location.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  "A.  Yes, because I was blindfolded."

 6             THE WITNESS:  No, no.  I recognised it.  After I fled I crossed

 7     the rail tracks and there was immediately a corn field there.  When we

 8     came to the site, as I told you, one could still hear the stalks of the

 9     corn in the field.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In your testimony in the Popovic case on the 25th of August, when

12     you were asked whether it is true that you didn't recognise the location,

13     you said:

14             "Yes, because I was blindfolded.  When I was brought there, the

15     only thing I could see were the dead in front of me."

16        A.   No.  When we were brought there to be executed, my group, when I

17     looked in front of me, at my feet, I saw a dead man.  I have three

18     children, and they immediately came to my mind.  I thought I would never

19     see them again.  And I started praying to God to die as a religious man,

20     not a atheist, and I could only ponder and picture death at that moment.

21             Fear is not great at such a point in time.  People about to be

22     executed are not all that afraid.

23        Q.   Just before we break for the day, tell me this, please:  Are you

24     telling us that what you said in the Popovic trial was not correct?

25        A.   No, no.  Perhaps I did say it.  I'm not saying I didn't.  But I

Page 10982

 1     know, I'm certain 100 per cent, that that is the location.  When I fled

 2     across the railroad, the people standing next to the digger fired shots,

 3     probably at me, but I didn't -- I wasn't injured.  I ran halfway into the

 4     field and I thought, Well, the corn is pretty high and, still, they may

 5     see me.  That's why I went down to my knees.  I went through the corn

 6     field, came out to the back, and there was a small forest there where I

 7     could hear water running, but I couldn't see it.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  It is time to conclude for the day, and we'll have to

 9     continue tomorrow.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

11             Witness, we have to break for the day.  You'll have to come back

12     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  May we -- we are just

13     going to adjourn now.  But before we do that, can we ask that the -- go

14     into closed session for you to leave the court.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10983

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

11             Well, we stand adjourned to tomorrow, Friday, the 10th of May, in

12     Courtroom III at 9.30.

13             Court adjourned.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of May,

16                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.