1 Friday, 10 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are no preliminaries, if I understand well. We have to
12 briefly move into closed session for the witness to enter the courtroom,
13 but I already announce that for the remainder of the testimony of this
14 witness, Judge Moloto will be acting Presiding Judge, because I've not
15 attended the beginning of the testimony of that witness.
16 Could we turn into closed session, in order to have the witness
17 enter the courtroom.
18 [Closed session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 Good morning, Witness RM297. Just to remind you that you're
2 still bound by the declaration you made at the beginning of your
3 testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the
5 WITNESS: RM297 [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you hear me in the language you understand,
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Judge, I always tell the
10 truth, otherwise I say nothing at all.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I'm very happy to hear that.
12 Mr. Lukic, according to our records, you're left with 48 minutes.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, you may proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. As you could hear, we haven't got much left. I'd like to start
20 with a number of questions which have to do with the 11th, the
21 12th of July, 1995. One of your brothers went to Susnjari with you;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The other brother was handicapped and he went to Potocari.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. He was evacuated from Potocari to Kladanj, and he is still alive
3 A. Yes. And, luckily enough, he is no longer handicapped. He was
4 never wounded, but he had sciatica.
5 Q. Could we please have in e-court P1132. It is the book compiled
6 by Mr. Ruez, which you have been shown previously.
7 We need page 130. 131. It is the school in Orahovac.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you were there with Mr. Ruez in this room --
10 A. Yes. And the closets were there when we were there.
11 Q. Is it true that you could not recall the basketball equipment
12 being mounted on the walls at the time of your detention?
13 A. Correct. I couldn't remember.
14 Q. Can we have P1444 next. You were shown this document yesterday.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document is under seal, Your Honours.
16 MR. LUKIC: Just then not to be broadcasted.
17 Should we go to the private session?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 10987 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] Thank you,
13 Madam Registrar.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] While you resided in Srebrenica, you said that
17 you worked the land. Is it true that the land you worked on belonged to
18 a Serb?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was that Serb still in Srebrenica?
21 A. No.
22 Q. While you were in Srebrenica, were there any Serbs?
23 A. A few. And they were looking for a way out. I don't know
24 whether they evacuated by themselves or if they were evacuated by the
25 Red Cross though.
1 Q. Do you know of the fate of the Serbs who lived in Srebrenica
2 municipality; for example in the villages of Brezani, Turije, Tegari,
3 Ratkovici, Fakovici, Kravica?
4 A. All that happened before my village fell and before I arrived in
5 Srebrenica. I don't know what happened there.
6 Q. Is it true that when you were in Srebrenica, in the villages I
7 just mentioned, there were no longer any Serbs?
8 A. I don't know what to say. I don't know.
9 As for the town of Srebrenica and the land where we planted our
10 crops, I didn't go further afield. I really don't know. Even today I
11 don't know where Fakovici or Brezani or Turije is. If you believe me, I
12 really don't know.
13 Q. You say that you stood guard at some point in time.
14 A. Yes. In my village where I lived.
15 Q. What about Srebrenica?
16 A. No.
23 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Yes, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. While in military service, what weapon were you issued with?
16 A. It was an RBN.
17 Q. Do you know if hand-held rocket-launchers existed in Srebrenica
18 and who used them at the time when you were there?
19 A. Mr. Lukic, when you have a witness from Srebrenica, you ask them.
20 When I arrived I didn't have any weapons. Nobody ever asked them about
21 weapons. We were not in a position to see any weapons, so I haven't a
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Mladic, you've been making comments and this
24 is the first time this morning. I ask you to please stop that, okay?
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you, sir. These were all the questions that I had prepared
2 for you.
3 A. I thank you as well.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. Before you sit down,
5 Mr. Lukic. Yesterday you attempted to tender 1D961. And then because
6 you then wanted to tendered it with its attachments, and this witness
7 could not answer any question from the attachments you ended up not doing
8 anything about it.
9 Are you not tendering 961? The photo only, not the attachments.
10 MR. LUKIC: I think that in that attachment he confirmed there is
11 Albanian woman, Elfete Veseli, who killed that guy.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You'll have to refer me to the transcript.
13 MR. LUKIC: I don't have it in front of me, but I --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I think once you've found the transcript you
15 can --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, can we MFI it then and I can come back.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Hochhauser.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the --
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I would just put my objection at this point on
21 the record not to the photograph which he identified but to the attached
22 article. I think the witness gave all of the information that he had
23 personal knowledge of and the article contains -- it's a lengthy article
24 of information that he did not attest or affirm.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's my recollection, and that's why I'm asking
1 Mr. Lukic to tell us where the witness testified on the attachments. My
2 recollection says he didn't say a word about the attachments. In fact,
3 you didn't ask him questions, because you got an objection. When you
4 tried to ask the questions you got an objection and then you moved on.
5 MR. LUKIC: Can I try to clarify that with the witness now?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I think you've got to go back to the
7 transcript of yesterday. And for now the Chamber is prepared to admitted
8 1D961, and you can deal with the attachments once you have found the
9 transcript for tomorrow.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you're ready, Madam Registrar, you may give a
15 number to 1D961 without its attachments and the document is admitted into
17 And maybe, Mr. Lukic, I suppose you will have to upload
18 this [indiscernible] separately then.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Once uploaded, document 1D961 receives number
20 D284, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, I found the transcript reference from
23 yesterday. Only it's temporary transcript. We only temporary transcript
24 in the courtroom. It's page 43, line 13. I asked him about
25 Elfete Veseli, last name is spelled correctly, and the witness confirmed,
1 "That's what I heard."
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: It doesn't say anything about the attachments. It
3 talks about the person you're asking.
4 MR. LUKIC: But that person is mentioned in that attachment, in
5 that text, newspaper text.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right. And what does the newspaper text say --
7 support, if he says he heard about the person? He hasn't read the
9 MR. LUKIC: It's not the first time here that we admit documents
10 witness has never saw before.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. The witness has no connection with the
12 document. He has connection with what he heard about the person who
13 was -- happens to be in the document.
14 MR. LUKIC: Well, yeah, I think we have enough in the transcript,
15 so it's not necessary for us to have that article --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]
17 MR. LUKIC: I will upload only the picture then.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.
19 Madam Hochhauser, any re-examination?
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: No, Your Honour, I have no further examination.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness RM297, this brings us to the conclusion of
23 your testimony for today. Thank you very much for taking the time off to
24 come and testify. You are now excused. Please travel safely back home.
25 May the Chamber --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
3 [Closed session]
11 [Open session]
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Madam Hochhauser, before I give you leave to leave, whereas you
16 did mention it in your Prosecution filing somewhere that you may not
17 tender 65 ter 15266 [Realtime transcript read in error "12566"], would
18 you like to formally withdraw it from your 65 ter list now that it was
19 not used with this witness?
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour, we could do that. I don't
22 anticipate using that sketch with any other witness.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am. It is so withdrawn,
24 Madam Registrar.
25 You are now excused.
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Mr. McCloskey has asked that I ask permission
2 for him to be excused as well.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. McCloskey, through your counsel you are
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Sorry. I notice also the transcript picked up
6 the 65 ter number as "12566."
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's "12566." Thank you. I now hand over to
8 Judge Orie.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Judge Moloto.
10 Mr. Weber, you're the one remaining.
11 MR. WEBER: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, out of process of
13 Good morning. At this time the Prosecution will call
14 Mile Janjic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no protective measures.
16 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour. And I don't know if
17 Your Honours are aware but we did send a brief communication last night
18 that this witness has been previously [indiscernible] Rule 90(E).
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then -- could the witness be escorted into the
20 courtroom. And then meanwhile I will use the time to deliver a decision
21 in open session, but I do not know whether it has been provided to the
22 booth so perhaps I wait for a second.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The booths have not been provided with the
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait until the decision has been
3 Good morning, Mr. Janjic. Before you give evidence, the Rules
4 require that you make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to make
5 that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: MILE JANJIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Janjic. You may be seated.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is
13 counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your right.
14 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
15 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. Weber:
17 Q. Good morning. Could you please introduce yourself to the
18 Trial Chamber.
19 A. My name is Mile Janjic.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm sorry to deviate already, but I do
21 not know if the Chamber wanted to admonish this witness or caution the
22 witness at all before I proceed with --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that's best to do now.
24 Mr. Janjic, if any question will be put to you where a truthful
25 answer would expose you to -- to reveal any criminal conduct by yourself,
1 then please do not answer that question right away but first address the
2 Chamber. We'll then decide whether or not you have to answer that
4 Now, if we would put you under an obligation to answer that
5 question, those answers could not be used in any proceedings before this
6 Tribunal against you. But if there's any risk, please tell us openly
7 that the answer might incriminate yourself.
8 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Mr. Janjic, have you previously appeared before this Tribunal and
11 provided testimony on three earlier occasions in the case of
12 Prosecutor versus Blagojevic and Jokic as a Defence witness and in the
13 Popovic and Tolimir cases as a Prosecution witness?
14 A. The answer is yes.
15 Q. Have you been informed that portions from your previous testimony
16 in the Blagojevic and Popovic cases would be tendered as your evidence in
17 this case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Prior to your testimony here today, did you have an opportunity
20 to review your previous testimony?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any clarifications or corrections to your earlier
24 A. No.
25 Q. If you were asked the same questions, would you provide the same
1 answers in this case?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration in this case, do you
4 affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders at this time
7 65 ter numbers 28876, 28877, and 5183. 65 ter 28876 is the proffered
8 transcript from the Blagojevic case; 65 ter 28877 is the proffered
9 transcript from the Popovic case; there's one associated exhibit, 65
10 ter 5183, which is a photo discussed by the witness at Popovic transcript
11 pages 17940 to 41.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I think approximately 70 pages of
14 transcript, that is not exactly within our guidance, is it?
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, it would be the Prosecution's position
16 that the approach with this witness is consistent with the general
17 concept behind the guidance, although not specifically in accordance with
18 the tendering of an amalgamated statement. As Your Honours have heard,
19 this witness was initially appeared as a Defence witness. The best
20 available and clearest record of his evidence so far has been his direct
21 examination which is essentially chronological in the Blagojevic case.
22 As Your Honours might be aware from our submission, there's a
23 total of 251 pages of previous evidence that this witness has given and
24 we have dramatically cut that down to 74 pages total, of what is directly
25 and centrally relevant in this case and also reduced the number of
1 associated exhibits to one that we're tendering.
2 With respect to the evidence of the witness, he has been
3 cautioned pursuant to Rule 90(E). He was originally a Defence witness.
4 We have had minimal contact with him throughout the years and put his
5 evidence on pursuant to Rule 92 ter on two previous occasions, which has
6 been accepted, and then it has also been accepted on a third occasion
7 pursuant to Rule 92 bis in the Karadzic case.
8 So we are very cognizant of the Chamber's guidance, and we ask
9 that this transcript be admitted at this time because it is, in our view,
10 in accordance with the Chamber's general guidance.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any further comments -- or
12 Mr. Stojanovic, any further comments? Certainly the fact that the
13 witness originally was a Defence witness makes this situation slightly
14 different from what we usually find.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is correct, Your Honours,
16 that in the Blagojevic/Jokic case this witness was a Defence witness. We
17 know that, and we will not object to the shortened version of the
18 transcript be admitted in this case.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it then also not against the -- no
20 objection against the associated exhibit which is only one.
21 Madam Registrar, could you please assign numbers.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28876 receives number P1445.
23 Document 28877 receives number P1446.
24 And document 5183 receives number P1447, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P1445 up to and including -- 1445. P1445 up to and
1 including 1447 are admitted into evidence.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, may I proceed with a presentation of a
4 summary of the witness's evidence?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please read the summary.
6 MR. WEBER: Mr. Mile Janjic was a member of the Bratunac military
7 police in July 1995. The witness provides evidence of events that
8 occurred at multiple locations between the 11th and 15th of July.
9 On 11 July 1995, Mr. Janjic was tasked with providing security
10 along the Sase-Pribicevac road. That evening, he returned to Bratunac
11 and went to the Hotel Fontana where he and other Bratunac MPs were met by
12 men who introduced themselves as the personal security detail of
13 General Mladic. During the night of the 11th, the witness provided
14 security both outside and inside the Hotel Fontana.
15 On the morning of 12 July, Momir Nikolic told the witness and
16 other Bratunac MPs to follow the orders of Colonel Jankovic.
17 Subsequently, Colonel Jankovic ordered Mr. Janjic to count the number of
18 people getting on buses and trucks in Potocari. Mr. Janjic counted the
19 individuals boarding the buses on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995, and
20 reported his numbers to Colonel Jankovic on both days. The witness also
21 provides evidence about the separation of men and the military staff that
22 he saw on those days in Potocari, including Generals Mladic and Krstic.
23 Mr. Janjic provides further evidence that on the 14th or 15th of
24 July, he was among several Bratunac MPs who went to a school in Rocevic.
25 There, he saw 10 to 15 soldiers in a meadow near the school whom he
1 recognised as being members of the Bratunac Brigade from Zenica.
2 That concludes the summary of the witness. May the Prosecution
3 proceed with further questioning?
4 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Mr. Janjic, before discussing some of the events between the 11th
7 and the 15th of July, the Prosecution would like to ask you an additional
8 question concerning a photo that's already been admitted in this case.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 43 of
10 Exhibit P1155, and we request if the Court Officer could please magnify
11 the photo on this page. If we could have just the photo.
12 Q. Mr. Janjic, on pages 9772 to -73 of your previous testimony in
13 the Blagojevic case, you identified yourself as being the individual
14 depicted at number 1, and General Krstic being the individual at number
16 My question to you is following: Did you see General Krstic in
17 Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July, 1995 or on only one of those days?
18 A. I'm sure that I saw him on one of those two days.
19 Q. Do you recall whether that was the first day you were in Potocari
20 or the second day?
21 A. As I've already told you, one of those days. I believe it was on
22 day one, but that I'm not 100 per cent sure of.
23 MR. WEBER: We're done with the photo.
24 Q. Directing your attention to the evening of 11 July 1995, during
25 your previous testimony in the Blagojevic case, at pages 9759 to -60, you
2 "In front of the hotel, we were met by men who introduced
3 themselves as the personal security detail of General Mladic, and they
4 gave us these certain tasks."
5 Could you please tell us how many men you were met by?
6 A. There were three men.
7 Q. What were these men wearing?
8 A. As far as I can remember, they had camouflage overalls; i.e.,
9 they were wearing uniforms belonging to the Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. On pages 9760 and -61 of your previous testimony in Blagojevic,
11 you discuss how you were one of the Bratunac MPs who provided security on
12 the exterior and interior of the Hotel Fontana between the evening of the
13 11th and morning of the 12th.
14 Did you see General Mladic at any point in time while you were
15 providing the security?
16 A. Only once. On the 11th, in the evening, I saw him in front of
17 the reception desk as he was walking in the direction of the restaurant
18 within the hotel. I did not see him from very close by.
19 Q. Did you see him on any other occasions after that evening?
20 A. Yes, very briefly on the following morning, on the 12th that is.
21 It was very early in the morning when I saw him. It was on the 13th --
22 no, it was on the 12th; I apologise. He was on the first floor of the
23 Hotel Fontana. I suppose that he had just left the room where he had
24 spent that night.
25 Q. Where were you specifically when you saw him on this -- following
2 A. One of my tasks besides providing security for the Fontana hotel
3 was to patrol at the reception on the ground floor. From the ground
4 floor a staircase leads to the first floor. There were a couple of us or
5 perhaps three of us, and at the beginning of that hallway or at the end
6 of the staircase, that's where I was.
7 Q. Before discussing your counting of individuals on the 12th and
8 13th in Potocari, I'd like to ask you a few general questions about the
9 separation of men and women on these days.
10 Could you please briefly explain to us the process used to
11 separate the men from the women in Potocari on the 12th and 13th of July.
12 A. In front of that group of people consisting of the inhabitants of
13 Srebrenica, there was a red and yellow police ribbon. There were
14 UNPROFOR soldiers in front of that ribbon and there were also members of
15 the special police. When buses, lorries, and other vehicles arrived,
16 somebody would lift that ribbon and they would let groups of people of
17 perhaps 100 or 200 people, i.e., larger groups of people, towards the
18 buses. The buses, lorries, and other vehicles were parked some 80 to
19 100 metres in the direction of Bratunac from that ribbon. That group of
20 people would walk the distance of some 80 to 100 metres, and on their
21 way, on the left and the right-hand side of the asphalt road leading from
22 Srebrenica to Bratunac, members of the special police were lined up. And
23 while the group was moving in the direction of the buses, the males were
24 directed towards the left side of the road looking towards Srebrenica,
25 then they were directed on an adjacent road towards a house on the
1 left-hand side of the Srebrenica-Bratunac road. At the same time, the
2 women and the children would go on walking to the right and they would
3 get on the buses that were parked there.
4 Q. In your answer, you just mentioned a house. What colour was that
5 house, and could you give us a better description of the building that
6 you're referring to?
7 A. I can explain the location itself. The house itself was white,
8 so nothing out of the ordinary. What I could observe, that it had a
9 large yard which reached up to the asphalt road and the canal, that is to
10 say, the main road between Srebrenica and Bratunac. It was to the left
11 of the road from Srebrenica to Bratunac, and that's all I can say.
12 Q. After or during the separation process on the 12th or the 13th,
13 were you able to see where the men were taken before they were boarded
14 onto buses?
15 A. As I said, they were in the yard. I saw them in the yard of the
17 Q. In your Blagojevic testimony, on page 9828, you were asked
18 whether you heard any women crying during the course of the separations.
19 Your answer was yes. Did you hear women crying on both the 12th and
20 13th of July during the course of the separations?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did this crying continue throughout both days?
23 A. I said yes. As for this last question, I can't really answer
24 because I truly don't remember. I don't remember how long it lasted and
25 whether it was throughout the two days.
1 There were women crying and protesting, but I can't say how long
2 it all lasted.
3 Q. During your previous testimony before the Tribunal, you've
4 explained the counting of men and women who boarded buses and trucks on
5 the 12th and 13th in Potocari. Today I would like to focus specifically
6 with you on the number of men who were placed on the buses on these
8 Starting with the number of men on the 12th of July, I'm going to
9 review your previous testimony and ask you to clarify your answers.
10 In your Blagojevic testimony, at page 9844, you explained that on
11 the first day, there were between 10 and 15 buses with men, and you
12 indicated there were over 50 men per bus.
13 In your Popovic testimony, at page 17942, you were asked whether
14 you could give any better estimate of the number of men per bus. You
15 indicated it was over 50 people, most likely 70. You continued to
16 explain your sampling method and stated on page 17943:
17 "But I stand by the numbers concerning the buses. It was 70 and
18 not 50."
19 Could you please confirm for us whether I understand correctly
20 that on the 12th of July, there were between 10 and 15 buses loaded with
21 men and there were approximately 70 men per bus, according to your
22 sampling method.
23 A. The answer is yes, and I can clarify the discrepancy between the
24 two statements.
25 There is a small difference because the sample I relied on was
1 based on the number of women and children on the 12th in the morning. I
2 did not count the men, and I thought at a certain point, I thought that
3 there should have been less than 70. However, if we look at the number
4 of bodies, or actually, the size of the bodies and the difference between
5 men and women, one would think that more women could fit into a single
6 bus. However, my assumption was not confirmed because even though
7 children and women were somewhat smaller, the women had items with them,
8 packages, et cetera. So, in my view, the figure could have been between
9 50 and 70.
10 Q. Let's move on to the number of men on the 13th. In the Popovic
11 case, on page 17945, you estimated that there were "certainly two or
12 three times more" from the previous day.
13 What do you base this estimate upon?
14 A. The difference between the first and the second day consisted in
15 the following: The first day, in the morning, the people left on those
16 ten buses or so. On the second day, as of noon onwards, they began
17 leaving together with the rest. The women and the men were being boarded
18 onto the buses as well, and they did not have to wait until the end of
19 that day, like the first day.
20 So the yard was already full before the first departure. Since
21 it was full, they were sent further afield from the road which was to the
22 left of the Srebrenica-Bratunac road. Right past the house, there's a
23 meadow on the left-hand side, the same side where the house is, and
24 that's where they were sent. It is some 50 to 100 metres away from the
25 house. There was a large group of people there.
1 Q. And on the second day, did you use the same counting method as
2 the first day?
3 A. The same method, yes. However, the difference on the second day
4 was that the men were no longer transported on buses. They were also
5 being transported on truck, much like the women and children.
6 Q. I'd like to go back to one of your earlier answers, and you refer
7 to the fact that the women had items with them, packages, et cetera.
8 This is on page -- page 22, lines 22 and 23. Did the men have any
9 packages with them?
10 A. No.
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see that it might be time for a break.
12 If this is a suitable moment for a pause.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for the break. We'll take a break of
14 20 minutes.
15 Could you please follow the usher, Witness.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take the break, Mr. Weber, I do understand
19 that the parties will make a great effort to see whether we can conclude
20 the evidence of this witness today.
21 How much time would you still need after the break?
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I won't be long. Maybe 10, 15 minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's see whether we can conclude the
24 testimony of this witness today.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, any --
1 We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Mr. Janjic, during your previous testimonies, you've explained
9 your interactions with Colonel Jankovic on the 12th and 13th of July in
10 Potocari. During your Blagojevic testimony, at page 9768, you were
12 "Could you please tell us who was your commanding officer to your
14 You answered:
15 "Well, as I understood at the moment, and in view of rank, it was
16 Colonel Jankovic."
17 Were you under the command of Colonel Jankovic on both the
18 12th and 13th of July?
19 A. I was in my understanding.
20 Q. Why was that your understanding?
21 A. Because Major Nikolic, Momir Nikolic, who was a major at the
22 time, sent me to an officer who was senior to him, who was a colonel, to
23 be at his disposal, and I was at his disposal for the two days; that is
24 to say, from the morning till evening, not during the night though. In
25 my understanding, I was under his command for the two days.
1 Q. On page 9788 of your Blagojevic testimony, in reference to events
2 on the 12th of July, you indicated that the reports or numbers came in in
3 instalments throughout the day, and Colonel Jankovic was the one who was
4 supposed to do the adding up?
5 Did you provide periodic reports of the number of people who were
6 placed on the buses and trucks to Colonel Jankovic on the
7 13th of July also?
8 A. The question is somewhat unclear. Since there were reports
9 coming intermittently -- well, I don't think such reports were arriving
10 from elsewhere. It was me, instead, who reported the figures to
11 Colonel Jankovic on a few occasions.
12 Q. Did you provide the reports on both the 12th and 13th to
13 Colonel Jankovic?
14 A. On a few occasions, yes.
15 Q. Would -- when you say "on a few occasions," could you please
16 explain that?
17 A. I will explain it the following way: I explained how I counted
18 for the first hours on the 12th. And, after that, I explained how it
19 came that the colonel accepted this idea on how to take samples of the
20 people boarded onto the vehicles. On several occasions, since I realised
21 that there was another person who was counting the number of people
22 leaving Srebrenica, several times we were in contact with
23 Colonel Jankovic. On one such occasion, he told me and the other person
24 from the civilian police to count more carefully in order to have at
25 least approximate figures. So he had both of us in mind.
1 Q. Was Colonel Jankovic the only person you were reporting these
2 figures to?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know whether Colonel Jankovic communicated any information
5 about your number counts to members of any international organisations?
6 A. I don't have that kind of knowledge.
7 Q. Were you the only Bratunac MP involved in the counting of
8 individuals in Potocari?
9 A. For the first few hours of the 12th, the answer is no. There
10 were several members of the MP platoon involved. After the first two to
11 three hours on the 12th, I was the only person doing so. When we
12 reverted to the sample-taking procedure, then I remained as the only
13 person counting the trucks and buses.
14 Q. Could you please tell us the names of the other Bratunac MPs who
15 participated in the counting on the 12th.
16 A. I can recall a couple for the first two to three hours:
17 Milovan Mitrovic, Milan Gvozdenovic, Zdravko Ilic, myself,
18 Zoran Zivanovic, and perhaps someone else.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We missed the first name.
20 Could the witness please repeat.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last two were Zdravko Ilic and
22 Zoran Zivanovic.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. Could you please repeat the first name that you mentioned.
25 A. Radenko Zaric, Milovan Mitrovic. I mentioned the two of them
2 Q. Did you or Milan Gvozdenovic receive any specific orders or tasks
3 during the evening of 13 July 1995?
4 A. Yes. From Colonel Jankovic.
5 Q. Could you please tell us what Colonel Jankovic ordered you both
6 to do?
7 A. First, he asked if we had a vehicle at our disposal. Since we
8 answered positively, he ordered that we get into the vehicle, since the
9 ribbon had been removed by that time, and since we could not see any
10 further afield from where we were standing, there were no more -- no more
11 inhabitants there. He told us to drive in the direction of Srebrenica,
12 deeper inside the territory, and in case we encountered more civilians en
13 route, to tell them to go to Potocari and wait and that, the next day,
14 transport would be organised and that they would be all be driven away.
15 Q. Did you carry out this order?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd like to change topics a little bit. On page 17950 to -51 of
18 your Popovic testimony, you discuss what you saw when you went to Rocevic
19 on the 14th or 15th of July. You indicated that you saw a few of your
20 colleagues and a group of 10 to 15 soldiers of the Serbian army outside
21 of a school in what you described as a yard or meadow close to that
23 Do you recall this testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you interact with any of your colleagues or the other Serbian
1 soldiers when you saw them near the school in Rocevic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you please describe this interaction.
4 A. I believe I said so a number of times before. I didn't know why
5 we went to Rocevic and what our task was to be there. We were there for
6 a brief period only. I got off the vehicle, when we arrived in front of
7 a school. This is where I encountered the group of soldiers. There was
8 even a colleague, a work-mate from the military police. Out of curiosity
9 I asked them what they were doing there and what was going on. They
10 said, although I couldn't see it, that there were men inside the school,
11 Muslim men, and that they were brought there. To their knowledge, they
12 were supposed to have been transported in the direction of Teocak. I
13 heard of that location. It is somewhere between Tuzla and Zvornik,
14 although I have never visited the place. That's all I could learn from
15 the colleagues.
16 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 191 of 65 ter
18 Q. Mr. Janjic, while the next exhibit is coming up, if you could
19 tell us who from the Bratunac military police was present when you saw
20 them near the school.
21 A. Who was present in front of the school or in general? Because I
22 did mention that a number of vehicles arrived. Do you mean the people
23 whom we met in front of the school or the people who arrived at the
25 Q. Were there any Bratunac MPs in front of the school; and, if so,
1 could you tell us their names.
2 A. I met a work-mate of mine whose name is Zoran Zivanovic and we
3 had a brief conversation. I was also present when he talked to
4 Mirko Jankovic, the MP platoon commander, so I have to mention that he
5 was there as well. He wasn't in front of the school but outside the
6 yard. He was there with an APC of the UN which was painted white.
7 Q. So we have it clearly on the record in this case, do I
8 understand correctly that Milenko Jankovic is a different person than
9 Colonel Jankovic who you reported to on the 12th and 13th of July? I'm
10 sorry, that was Mirko Jankovic. That was my mistake. Mirko Jankovic.
11 A. Yes, it is a different person. Mirko Jankovic was the MP platoon
12 commander in July 1995.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could I seek clarification of one of the
14 areas. It may be a translation or a language matter.
15 Witness, you were recorded as having said the following. You
16 were talking about men "inside the school, Muslim men, and that they were
17 brought there. To their knowledge, they were supposed," and now you're
18 talking about the men with whom you had a conversation, "to their
19 knowledge, they were supposed to have been transported in the direction
20 of Teocak."
21 I have difficulties in understanding that they were supposed to
22 have been transported. Is it that they were supposed to be transported
23 in that direction? Or is it that they had already been transported?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is correct. They were
25 supposed to be transported.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the issue.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. Mr. Janjic, I'd just like to direct your attention to the
5 photograph that's before you. Do you recognise what is depicted?
6 A. This building looks like the school in Rocevici. I'm a bit
7 confused by the fence in front of it. I don't remember it looking like
8 that. But I do remember that this was the backyard. The gym was on the
9 left-hand side. The ground floor and the first floor remind me a lot of
10 that school and the road in front of the school. And you can see the
11 gate in the photo, the electrical posts, and the fence, and can you see
12 the road that is below the school, and that is the Zvornik-Bijeljina
14 MR. WEBER: At this time the Prosecution would tender this single
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honours ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: It needs to be uploaded as a single photograph.
20 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. Ms. Stewart also just
21 reminded me of the same. We will do so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we already assign a number to it.
23 Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned would be ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: Once uploaded the photo will receive number
25 P1448, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you please inform Madam Registrar
2 once -- once it is uploaded.
3 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
8 Mr. Janjic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
9 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
10 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janjic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I'll try to take into account what you have told us so far. I'll
15 use some photos, video-clips, and documents to jog your memory and I will
16 have some questions for you. The first one being: When did you join the
17 military police of the Bratunac Brigade?
18 A. I joined the military police sometime in the summer of 1994. It
19 was either in June or July.
20 Q. Will you agree with me that that was a unit that would match an
21 infantry platoon in strength and that's exactly how you were organised?
22 A. I will agree that it had up to 50 men at the most.
23 Q. In military terms, who were you directly subordinated to?
24 A. Perhaps we were supposed to be subordinated to the brigade
25 commander. However, in factual terms one could easily say that we
1 received all of our orders from Major Momir Nikolic. He seems to have
2 been in charge of us.
3 Q. Where was the seat of the military police platoon with regard to
4 the command of the Bratunac Brigade? Physically, I mean.
5 A. In the vicinity of the entrance into the building that housed the
6 Bratunac Brigade. There were a few small buildings there, and our
7 buildings -- building was perhaps 30 to 40 metres from the building where
8 the Bratunac Brigade was billeted.
9 Q. Do you know that the military police platoon of the
10 Bratunac Brigade kept records of the duty service and that the records
11 were kept daily, covering the activities of your platoon?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have an occasion to see that log-book that was kept at
14 the military police platoon?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to call up 65 ter 04205. Let us
17 look at page 12 in B/C/S and page 9 in English.
18 Mr. Janjic, this is one of the pages that I would like to show
19 you and invite your comments. In the left upper corner, it says that
20 this was recorded on the 8th of July, 1995. Can you see that? Look at
21 the left-hand side upper corner.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And, here, in the central part of that page, it says that on the
24 8th of July, during the shift military conscripts were brought in and
25 that there was a patrol working at check-points, and there's something
1 that I would like to concentrate on. A patrol consisting of four
2 military policemen went to Pribicevac for UNPROFOR members.
3 Can you remember what happened exactly? Were you a member of
4 that patrol?
5 A. I can state for a fact that I was not a member of that patrol but
6 apart from that, I really can't remember what this was about. I can't
8 Q. If I make a little pause, please don't hold it against me. I'm
9 waiting for the interpretation to be over.
10 Do you know that there came a time in Bratunac when a group of
11 UNPROFOR members appeared and that they were billeted there?
12 A. No, I don't know that.
13 Q. Thank you. And then let's look at the same document, but this
14 time I'm looking at page 15 in B/C/S, and in English it would be on
15 page 12. Let's wait for the English version. Thank you.
16 This is another page in that log-book. It covers the date of the
17 11th of July. And, to the best of your recollection and according to
18 your testimony, you provided security for the Pribicevac-Spat road, or
19 Pribicevac-Sase road.
20 A. I would call it the Sase-Pribicevac road.
21 Q. It says here that one group of the military police provided
22 security for the Pribicevac-Spat road to protect Ratko Mladic and others.
23 First of all, can you tell us what the toponym "Spat" stands for?
24 A. I was never there. There is a place called Spat; I remember that
25 from war time. It is a small village, I suppose, but I was never there.
1 Q. Is that village close to the Sase-Pribicevac road?
2 A. I believe that it is closer to Pribicevac, but I don't want to
3 speculate. I'm sure that it is in the Pribicevac sector, but I would
4 only be -- speculated if I attempted to tell you exactly where it was.
5 Q. What was your task on that day?
6 A. On that day, as so many times before or during the month of July,
7 we're talking a period of seven or five days, we provided security along
8 the road. We were told that a large group of officers were taking that
9 road on their way to Pribicevac and that our task was to provide security
10 for their safe passage, for their safe return as well.
11 Q. Is it correct that at that time there was a forward command post
12 in Pribicevac?
13 A. There was a command post of the 3rd Battalion in Pribicevac. It
14 had been set up much before. I believe that it was set up in 1993, if
15 not even before that.
16 Q. At one point on the 11 July, General Ratko Mladic also took that
17 road in his vehicle; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when it was, when that vehicle
20 drove by.
21 A. I can't say when that happened, when the vehicle was travelling
22 towards Pribicevac. I only knew that the general was travelling towards
23 Pribicevac on that day, that we had to exert more caution. I saw that
24 vehicle on its way back in late afternoon. I believe that it was after
25 5.00. I'm sure that it was not before 5.00. It was after 5.00, but I
1 don't know whether it was around 6.00 or around 7.00. I can't be sure of
3 Q. Was that vehicle moving towards Srebrenica or from Srebrenica at
4 the moment when you saw it?
5 A. As I've just told you, that vehicle was returning from
6 Pribicevac, and that could only be in the direction of Bratunac.
7 Q. Can you take another route from Pribicevac to get to Srebrenica?
8 A. I assume that that would be the case, but I don't know. It's
9 only my assumption.
10 Q. At one point in time, in the vicinity of the place where you
11 were, there was a NATO air strike; is that correct?
12 A. That happened on the 11th, much before General Mladic returned.
13 We knew that he was in the Pribicevac sector which increased our concern.
14 NATO aircraft were observed, and we were close to the command post, which
15 is a bit lower, and I believe that their sortees inflicted more --
16 damaged on us, who were above Pribicevac. Some 2- or 300 metres from our
17 vehicles there were two aircrafts flying over us. They were throwing
18 cluster bombs or something like that. We heard a lot of explosions.
19 They must have thrown dozens or hundreds of those bombs. We were
20 powerless there. All we had was a Pinzgauer vehicle. At that moment I
21 was in the vehicle. I opened fire from the anti-aircraft gun without any
22 success. There were a few more sortees. They threw their load on our
23 positions and they vanished.
24 Q. According to you, when did that happen on the 11th of July?
25 A. I would say that that happened in the afternoon after 12.00 but
1 much before the time when General Ratko Mladic returned -- was returning
2 from Pribicevac.
3 Q. According to you, the place where those bombs landed, as you
4 called them, how far was that from Pribicevac, i.e., from the command
6 A. It's very difficult to be precise. The closest to us was perhaps
7 200 to 300 metres. And looking from the command post, it could have
8 perhaps been 500 metres, or even up to 1 kilometre away from that place.
9 But I'm not sure.
10 Q. In the vehicle that passed you by and you were told that it was
11 general -- General Mladic's vehicle in that convoy, but you didn't see
12 General Mladic himself, did you?
13 A. I was standing perhaps 20 to 30 metres away, and I could see what
14 I could see. But my colleague who was closer to the road than I was -
15 Nenad Jokic was his name - was very close to General Mladic.
16 Q. How much later after General Mladic went by did you stay in the
17 field; and when did you receive your new orders?
18 A. We stayed on for a very short time. According to experience, we
19 knew that after the high-ranking officers passed by, we would be called
20 off and then we would be repositioned. Very shortly after that, and it
21 was a customary practice, like so many times before that, we gathered.
22 We got into the vehicles and we headed for the command of the
23 Bratunac Brigade.
24 Q. And what was the next order that you received on -- late in the
25 afternoon on the 11th of July?
1 A. Our next order, as soon as we arrived, we did not even park our
2 vehicles properly in front of the military police premises at the gate of
3 the premises of the Bratunac Brigade. Our vehicle was stopped by our
4 colleagues, police officers whose name I don't remember, and we were
5 given a task to urgently go in the direction of Pobrdze and to bring
6 Ljubisav Simic, Professor Simic. I know that he had to do about the
7 municipality. He was either president or something-like that.
8 Another group of police officers that were standing next to us
9 were given a task to bring Miroslav Deronjic. They went to his house on
10 foot. He resided very close to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
11 During that period of time, he also discharged some duties in the
12 municipality. I really don't know which one of them was what but I know
13 that they were both highly positioned in the civilian authorities in the
14 municipality. And let me just emphasise that within the perimeter of the
15 Bratunac Brigade command, i.e., in front of the building closer to the
16 gate, we saw a large number of officers, I could spot them during that
17 brief period of time, and I could see that General Mladic was one of
19 Q. Who was it who gave you your order?
20 A. As I've just told you, our colleagues from the police turned up.
21 I can't remember who they were. I don't know who gave us that particular
22 order. I know who gave us our next order after that.
23 Q. And that evening, you brought Mr. Ljubisav Simic with you, did
24 you not?
25 A. I did not bring Ljubisav Simic. I knew where his house was. We
1 came in front of the house. We rang the bell. His wife opened the door.
2 And I believed her when she told me. She used to be my Russian language
3 teacher in high school, so we believed her. We did not enter the house.
4 We did not search the house. I believed her when she told us that
5 Mr. Simic was away on business in Montenegro. That's why we did not
6 bring him.
7 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what we heard. And then when you
8 returned, did you receive a new order?
9 A. Mr. Nikolic approached us. There were several of us there, and
10 he told us to go in the direction of the Fontana hotel, because our next
11 order had to do with the hotel. This is what we did after having spent a
12 very short time in the military police building. We stayed there perhaps
13 15 minutes to half an hour. A group of some 15 police officers on foot
14 set out in the direction of Hotel Fontana.
15 Q. What was your task in front of the hotel? What were you supposed
16 to do there?
17 A. We were told that everything would become clear when we got
18 there. When we arrived in front of the hotel, we were approached by
19 uniformed soldiers. They introduced themselves as the personal detail of
20 General Mladic, and they explained to us that some negotiations were to
21 take place there and that our task was to provide security for the -- the
22 general sector of the Fontana hotel.
23 At that time, the area around the hotel was not a pedestrian area
24 so we were supposed to stop the traffic and to remove all the civilians.
25 We were deployed there, and we carried out the task.
1 Q. How long did you go on performing that task on the 11th of July?
2 A. We stayed there until the early morning hours of the
3 12th of July.
4 Q. Do you remember that at one point in time an UNPROFOR delegation
5 arrived in the hotel from Potocari?
6 A. I remember that their vehicles arrived. They were quite
7 striking. They parked in front of the restaurant. There's a parking lot
8 there that can accommodate up to 10 vehicles. It is actually a garden
9 terrace belonging to the hotel. They parked very close to the entrance.
10 It was already dark; I don't know how late it was.
11 Q. And were there any other activities that evening? Did anybody
12 else arrive? Did anyone leave? Were there any other vehicles that
13 arrived? Or did some vehicles leave?
14 A. I can be sure of that one time. I can't remember any other
15 arrivals. We were tasked with providing security for a large area around
16 the hotel so I was not there all the time. There were times when --
17 times when I was behind the hotel and not very close to the hotel.
18 Q. Did you see anything that might indicate that somebody was
19 slaughtering a pig, either in front of the hotel or behind the hotel?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. If there was a lot of noise -- a slaughtering pig produces a lot
22 of noise, and if that was happening close to the hotel and in view of
23 where you were positioned, would you have been able to hear such a noise?
24 A. I'm sure that I would have heard it. Maybe I didn't say this,
25 but I would like to say now that we had a short intervention. In the
1 close vicinity of the hotel, we could hear music coming out of the house.
2 I believe that the house belonged to the Ilic family. I knew them. I
3 went to school there, so I knew a lot of people, and we went there and
4 asked them to turn the music down. That house is across the street from
5 the hotel, some 200 metres from the hotel. That music was quite audible.
6 It was quite loud.
7 Q. That night --
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
9 Could the witness -- do you -- do you understand the English
10 language, Witness?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones for a second.
13 I'm wondering, Mr. Stojanovic, what is the position of the
14 Defence, because earlier we -- when witnesses testified about the
15 slaughtering of a pig, we were presented with a document which: I gave
16 permission to slaughter a pig. Now it seems now your line of questioning
17 to be that no pig was ever slaughtered, so that confuses me slightly. Is
18 the position of the Defence that there was a -- if I could say so, a
19 regular slaughtering of a pig not intended to intimidate, or is the
20 position of the Defence there was no slaughtering of a pig at all?
21 Could you tell us what position of the Defence is.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The position of this Defence
23 after the consultations with the client is clear. No pig was
24 slaughtered. There was no intimidation of that kind.
25 Let me just finish, please.
1 MR. WEBER: I believe the language spoken might be something that
2 could be understood by the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I should have thought about that.
4 But I think it's -- it's not dramatic at this moment.
5 So finally your position is that, despite -- so we do have to
6 understand that the permission to do it was -- is then going against your
7 own case or ... I'm just wondering what it is.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We saw a document from the
9 Tolimir case which was an approval and that approval is not in dispute.
10 But that activity did not take place in front of the hotel at the time
11 that was indicated here.
12 Our client -- and we will hear that from other witnesses as well.
13 I apologise.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I can't say that that document was presented in
15 relation to any event that took place beyond hearing distance from the
16 witness at that time. But let's leave it to that.
17 This witness has told us now that he didn't hear any such thing
18 of a kind. So let's move on before we enter up into too many details.
19 And if I could give you some guidance, this witness gives quite a
20 lot of details which seems to be not that relevant for his story, so if
21 you could please keep tight control over questions and answers.
22 Please proceed.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since -- I may put one short question.
24 Now the witness has his earphones on again.
25 We have still the -- this page of the log-book of
1 Bratunac Brigade in front of us on the screen. I would only want to --
2 I'd like to put one question to the witness.
3 We see on the bottom of that page, and you see it as well, two
4 names: One name is Bozic; the next is Nikolic. Above that, there is one
5 single word. Could you explain that word? I ask because it's not
6 reflected in the English translation. What is written there and what
7 does that mean?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the name. It seems German to
9 me. In any case, it reads Bozic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honours --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Above the name -- above that name, Bozic, what is
12 written there?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ona nama is Bozic." That is the
14 sentence before.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. The Judge is asking you about the B/C/S document in our language.
17 A. I don't have it in B/C/S.
18 Q. Is there a word in the B/C/S text that is missing from the
19 English text?
20 JUDGE ORIE: The witness says "I don't have it in B/C/S." We
21 first have to verify whether the witness receives this document in B/C/S.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's gone from our screens too.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you see the document in B/C/S? That is,
24 in your own language.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what is written just above the two
2 names? It seems to be one word --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems someone's assisting me.
4 It says "prijavnica [phoen]" which could be gatehouse or a reception.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- I don't know whether the document will
7 be tendered, but if so, the Chamber would like to have a complete
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution will of course take care
10 to correct the translation. Our position would be that the 65 ter should
11 be made in whole, rather brief log of the July [overlapping speakers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but whatever, long or short, we would like to
13 have a complete translation that's [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 MR. WEBER: [Overlapping speakers] ... of course, I just want to
15 know because we will check the other pages too.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. I'd like to draw your attention to the 12th of July now and
20 Potocari. Did you have any knowledge as to who Colonel Jankovic was?
21 A. Not until then.
22 Q. When you discussed the process of separation for men and
23 mentioned the members of this special brigade of the police, how did you
24 know that they were the people separating the men from the group of
1 A. I knew it because they had introduced themselves to me in a
2 conversation. When I talked to them, I learned who they were, what unit
3 they belonged to, and when they said that they were "specials," that is
4 to say the special police, I knew then what kind of people they were and
5 how they were assembled. After I learned who they were, and after I
6 remembered what their uniforms -- uniforms looked like, I could see them
7 as well engaging in the process.
8 Q. You, however, did not take part in the separation activity of
9 separating the able-bodied men from the rest.
10 A. No, not at any point in time.
11 Q. You didn't see any member of the Bratunac Brigade taking part in
12 the process.
13 A. I didn't -- or, rather, I couldn't see members of the
14 Bratunac Brigade there because they weren't there. I explained in detail
15 that at first there were some 15 MPs there who belonged to the
16 Bratunac Brigade. Amp that the number went down to six or seven and at
17 certain points in time there were even less of us present in Potocari.
18 Q. Then I will rephrase my question. Did you see any member of the
19 military police of the Bratunac Brigade on the 12th of July at any point
20 in time taking part in the separation of able-bodied men?
21 A. I didn't see any.
22 Q. Everything you saw regarding the separation process, when the
23 able-bodied men were separated, was that members of the special police
24 brigade engaged in it?
25 A. That is correct. And I have explained already the -- the process
2 Q. I want to ask you the following: At some point in time, you saw
3 General Mladic arrive, as you explained, in Potocari. Do you recall
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Did you have occasion to see General Mladic at some point address
7 the refugees in the area?
8 A. I saw him go there. I saw him move in that direction. He didn't
9 stay there for long, and I can only suppose that he addressed them
10 because I couldn't hear him.
11 Q. Let us look at excerpt from those events.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is P1147, the video we've
13 used already. The segment I'm interested in begins at 24:40 ending at
14 25:42. After that, I will have a few questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, we take some patience until we see and
16 hear anything. If you do the same, we can proceed.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Janjic, do you remember whether General Mladic arrived in
20 Potocari before the transport set out, or at the moment people began
21 being transported?
22 A. I cannot be certain. I can say that I saw him twice, and I'm
23 positive. When he arrived, he was stopped by the group of people where
24 this footage was shot. It was some 120 metres away. I mentioned the
25 distribution of food and that he was shouting at members of the logistic
1 battalion. So he stayed there for a brief period. Then he passed by the
2 place where I was. I was 100 metres away from the group. He was
3 accompanied by some security officers. He went to the ribbon and went
4 back. In the course of those couple of days I saw him one other time. I
5 know that he went in the direction of Vijogor because the people from the
6 MP platoon, my colleagues --
7 Q. Let me interrupt you. I'll get to that because I think it is an
8 important fact, but for the time being kindly answer only the questions
9 that I have put to you so we can conclude today.
10 The other thing that I wanted to ask you about: You said that
11 you saw General Mladic at some point shout at members of the logistics
12 battalion. What was it all about?
13 A. Well, it will take time. I've tried already to explain it in
14 detail. We spent those two days without food or water. What I could
15 observe after his departure was that we saw a vehicle packed with food
16 and water, and they were distributing it to the people to the side of the
17 road, the people on the buses, and everywhere else. We, as the military
18 policemen also tried to get some food because our supply did not work.
19 The same was done by the members of the special police, but we were
20 turned away. We were told that it was Mladic's orders, that he was
21 shouting at them, and that all the food and water was to go to the people
22 leaving. This is what remains etched in my memory. We hoped to get
23 something from the forces of UNPROFOR, and it was incomprehensible to me
24 because we knew that after we entered they had tens of tonnes of food and
25 water and yet they distributed perhaps a few litres of water and I didn't
1 see a single loaf of bread in circulation. I never seen them distribute
2 anything to the population there. After all of it, we took over the camp
3 securing --
4 Q. We'll get to that too, but let's stop here for now. Did I
5 understand you well that you received information that it was
6 General Mladic's order to give the food and water to the refugees and not
7 to the soldiers and policemen from Republika Srpska?
8 A. Precisely.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is this a good time
11 for a break?
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break in a second. But I'd like to ask
13 one clarifying question. You said that UNPROFOR had tens of tonnes of
14 food and water. What's the source of this information?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to clarify but I was
16 interrupted by counsel. What I tried to say is the following: After all
17 of the events, a few days later, after the 12th and the 13th, let's say,
18 between the 15th and the 20th, I claim it responsibly, our next task, the
19 task of the MP platoon, was to secure -- well, the UNPROFOR soldiers had
20 left by then. We had to secure the base so that their property would not
21 be taken away and looted.
22 So we were there at least or over seven days, maybe ten days to a
23 fortnight. At the time, military vehicles came from the VRS, and they
24 took truck -- it took truck upon truck for them to take away the food and
25 fuel. The containers were towed away as well, where they were billeted,
1 where they slept.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You say you found -- at least the trucks that
3 transported fuel and food out, found all those tens of tonnes of food and
4 fuel in the premises of UNPROFOR after the 15th. Is that the source of
5 your knowledge? Did you see it, or did you hear that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I was present because I,
7 too, provided security then. I saw it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you saw it. That was my question.
9 Could you please follow the usher because we'll take a break.
10 Mr. Stojanovic, we are on track, in terms of time?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will
12 conclude even sooner. So, in any case, we'll conclude today.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break, and we'll resume at
14 quarter past 12.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 Meanwhile, I use the time. The Chamber was informed by the
19 Office of the Prosecution that the photograph, which is page 191 of the
20 65 ter document 5248, that single page that had been tendered today and
21 assigned provisionally Exhibit P1448, has been uploaded separately as
22 65 ter P5248B, and P1448 is therefore now admitted into evidence.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I put the
1 question, I would like to say that 1D961 has been uploaded as a photo,
2 and it bears number D284. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] this is confirmed by
4 Madam Registrar, and it has been accordingly now been corrected in
5 e-court so that everything now is accurate in the records of this case.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. We will continue talking about the 12th of July.
9 Kindly tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your recollection,
10 we saw a clip depicting General Mladic. Where was that taken? In what
11 area? What are the facilities behind him?
12 A. I managed to recognise the population behind and the strikingly
13 remarkable red-and-white ribbon which was an imaginary boundary. That
14 would be lifted up and people that were behind that ribbon would be let
16 Q. According to your estimate how far was that from the facility
17 where the men were accommodated after having been separated from the
18 women and children?
19 A. About 100 metres, at least.
20 Q. And now let's look at another clip together. I would like us to
21 look at P1147 from 28:08 to 28:44. I'm going to show you just a frozen
22 photo taken from that clip. After you see it, I will have a few
23 questions for -- for you.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, is this a clip that were -- was shown to you during the
2 examination-in-chief and did you recognise yourself in that clip?
3 A. I suppose so, because I could see myself again coming from the
4 background and looking in the direction of the camera.
5 Q. General Krstic provided this statement and repeated
6 General Mladic's words, according to which the population would be
7 transported if they so wished.
8 Do you remember that you heard General Krstic saying anything
9 else, in addition to what was recorded?
10 A. As I've already told you, I was not in a position to hear -- hear
11 what I can hear in the clip. I came from the background. I realised
12 that he was being interviewed. I may have caught a few words. I
13 couldn't really hear them. I can't remember that I saw General Krstic
14 providing any orders and instructions or saying anything to anybody else.
15 And I repeat: I did not hear, at the time, what I can hear now in the
17 Q. We're talking about the 12th of July, day one of your stay in
18 Potocari. Did you ever see any ill-treatment, abuse against the refugees
19 in the area? Did you see that with your own eyes?
20 A. No, none of that. General Mladic was there. I saw him on
21 several occasions, and I must say that the level of discipline was really
22 very high, at a very enviable level.
23 Q. The place where you were when this video was recorded and
24 General Krstic's statement, how far was that from the place where
25 General Mladic's statement was recorded?
1 A. Well, if you take a better look, you will see those buses in the
2 background, and we know that those buses were some 80 metres away from
3 the place where we saw General Mladic before. So the distance was
4 certainly 80 metres if not more. I already told you how far the buses
5 were from the imaginary boundary marked with that red-and-white ribbon.
6 It must have been at least 80 metres.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to call up P61
8 which an is aerial photo of the Potocari sector as it was on the 12th of
9 July. And then I will ask the witness to take a pencil, or a pen,
10 rather, and to mark certain localities.
11 Let's first wait for the document to be uploaded.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is there any reason to believe
13 that -- I don't know what you want the witness to mark, but do you expect
14 him to mark, for example, what was often called the white house in a
15 different place? Or, I mean, I'm just wondering to what extent what you
16 are about to do may be repetitious and to what extent it may not even be
17 in dispute. Would you please keep that very much in mind when you ask
18 the witness to mark.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will certainly bear that in
20 mind. Maybe that exercise will not even be necessary. You're right.
21 Q. Please look at the photo. That photo was taken at 1400 hours on
22 the 12th of the July. Could you please tell us whether you can see the
23 place where General Mladic provided his statement, i.e., where you was
24 interviewed for TV?
25 A. I'm really sorry, and you know it very well because you showed me
1 similar aerial photos in my previous testimony, I had a very hard time
2 finding my bearings. The Judges helped me. I can testify orally. I can
3 make markings, but I'm not very good at marking photos.
4 Q. Well, thank you very much. I had not insist, in that case. I
5 know that that is exactly how it was. But now I would like you to pay
6 attention to a question that you tried to elaborate in your answer but
7 then I interrupted.
8 At one point, on the 12th of July you say that you remember that
9 one group of MP members received a different order and that was to head
10 in the direction of Viogor. Do you remember that?
11 A. I know what vehicle they took. I can give you the names of one
12 or two of the policemen who went in the direction of Viogor. Their
13 mission didn't stop there. After Viogor, according to what they told us
14 later, they escorted General Mladic to Vlasenica and even further. I
15 don't know how far. In any case, it was in the direction of Han Pijesak.
16 Maybe they went even as far as Han Pijesak. This is all I know.
17 Q. I would like to elaborate on that. Tell the Trial Chamber, to
18 the best of your recollection, who were the military policemen who were
19 told to go to Viogor and escort General Mladic?
20 A. The Pinzgauer vehicle with an anti-aircraft machine-gun was
21 driven by Milovan Mitrovic. I can also say with 100 per cent certainty
22 that there was Zeljko Zaric there, as well as Mladen Blagojevic. I would
23 stop there because I'm not sure about the others. I only know that there
24 were two or three others.
25 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber when was it, on the 12th of July, when
1 they were sent on that mission?
2 A. It was in the afternoon. I already told you that they returned
3 late that night. I told you where they had been sent to. They returned
4 quite late during the night.
5 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber where the Viogor sector
6 is in relation to Potocari. What is the distance between the two?
7 A. From the direction of Bratunac, if you drive on the
8 Bratunac-Srebrenica road, the road to Viogor forks off in the direction
9 of Zepa on the right. You have to turn before Potocari, and it is
10 certainly more than 4 or 5 kilometres away from Potocari.
11 Q. Did you find out at any point in time why General Mladic went to
12 Viogor on that day in the afternoon? Did your colleagues tell you that?
13 A. They told me, because the movement of the troops of the
14 Bratunac Brigade and many other troops happened after Srebrenica was
15 taken. The next mission was to go to Zepa, and there's just one road
16 leading to Zepa, one may say.
17 Q. After leaving the Potocari sector on the 12th of July, according
18 to your recollection, did General Mladic ever return to that sector?
19 A. I can't say. I can't say yes or no because I don't remember.
20 Q. You've told us that that patrol on that day went as far as
21 Vlasenica and Han Pijesak. Am I right in thinking that?
22 A. Yes, you're absolutely right.
23 Q. Those police officers, your colleagues, and you have told us
24 three of their names, did they tell you that they escorted General Mladic
25 all the time?
1 A. Yes, they shared the detail with us. I -- I suppose that those
2 details would be of no consequence for this Trial Chamber. But, yes,
3 they did share their experiences and a lot of tiny details.
4 Q. Let me just ask one other time-related question. Are you sure
5 that that happened on the 12th in the afternoon, or is it perhaps
6 possible that that happened on the 13th in the afternoon?
7 A. Well, yes. You are insisting on the 12th, whereas, I have
8 repeated on several occasions that I'm not sure about the dates. All the
9 details are correct. Everything is accurate but the date. You were
10 mention -- insisting on the date, and I -- I forget to mention that I'm
11 really not sure about the date.
12 Q. Let's focus now and let me hear from you whether it would be
13 correct that General Mladic left for Viogor on the first day of your stay
14 in Potocari, i.e., on the 12th of July. Would that be correct?
15 A. I would be speculating if I said that I'm sure. I told you when
16 I saw him, where I saw him, how I saw him. I can only tell you with
17 100 per cent certainty that it was in the afternoon, but I would be
18 speculating about the date.
19 Q. Thank you. And now let me ask you this: In methodological terms
20 or in technical terms, how did you count the buses that drove men off
21 from Potocari?
22 A. I've already said several times that the same procedure applied
23 to women, children, and men. We were counting women and children for the
24 first couple of three hours on the 12th. And then on the 12th in the
25 evening, there were some dozen buses with men and we counted all those
1 men that left Potocari. And the same repeated on the 13th.
2 Q. Let's simplify. Did you count people or did you count buses?
3 A. For the first three hours, I counted people on the 12th in the
4 morning. Later on, we counted buses, lorries, and other similar
6 Q. Would I be right in saying that you started by counting heads,
7 that you realised that it was a time-consuming exercise, and then you
8 decided to count the number of vehicles that were taking people away. Am
9 I right?
10 A. The answer is yes. But that was done with approval by
11 Colonel Jankovic.
12 Q. At some point, Colonel Jankovic addressed the men in your
13 vicinity, and he informed them about the procedure that would ensue; is
14 that correct?
15 A. The answer is yes, and that happened on the 12th in the afternoon
17 Q. What did you hear Colonel Jankovic say to these people when they
18 asked him what would happen with them next?
19 A. He came across as sincere. He tried to calm them down. He told
20 them there was no need for concern or panic, that the buses would arrive,
21 that they would all be transported and that they would catch up with
22 their families. They would be taken to the same destination as them and
23 that there was no need for them to be afraid, to panic, or any such
24 thing. That's what he told them, and I heard his words myself.
25 Q. Did you personally at any point in time have any information that
1 a lot of those people would be anything else but exchanged?
2 A. What did you say? Exchange?
3 Q. Yes, I said exchange. Did you believe that they would be
4 exchanged? Did you take that for a fact?
5 A. Yes. I believed that, and I kept on believing that for a long
6 time. But now I believe that a lot of them were killed. Whoever passes
7 through Potocari, I can see a lot of graves. I understand that a lot of
8 the people had been killed. I didn't know. I couldn't even suspect that
9 something like that would happen.
10 Q. The record of the number of people leaving Potocari was kept by
11 an employee of the civilian police from the Bratunac police station;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell the Court his name.
15 A. The person's name is Milisav Ilic.
16 Q. The men who were separated on the 12th of July were taken away in
17 a single group from Potocari; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you say "in my assessment, there were between 10 and 15
20 buses," and we're talking about the first day, and if I understood
21 properly there were no trucks that day, how is it possible then that if
22 you kept record of the number of buses to have such a wide margin of
23 differing answers as compared to the number of vehicles?
24 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question perfectly.
25 Q. My mistake. I'll reformulate. Tell me this: The number of
1 buses which took away the separated able-bodied men, and you said there
2 were between 10 and 15 vehicles, was it your assessment and that you are
3 unaware of the exact figure?
4 A. That is why I put it within the range of between 10 to 15 buses.
5 There may have been eight, or 13, or a dozen.
6 Q. So that is your free estimate, so to speak?
7 A. It is my free estimate because I didn't try to commit to my
8 memory the figures in any other way, so it's an assessment of mine.
9 Q. I'll ask you about the 13th, but let me conclude the 12th first.
10 Tell me this: When you were asked about seeing personal effects being on
11 the ground in front of the facility where the able-bodied men were, did
12 you see any passports strewn about belonging to those men?
13 A. As regards the personal possessions, many such questions were put
14 to me at different times. I'm not a lawyer so I don't see what the point
15 is, but I did try to clarify it in the Blagojevic trial. It is my
16 opinion, and if we know that close-by there is a general of an army, I
17 didn't see anything wrong with the people --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.
19 What the question is whether you saw any passports. Whether
20 that's legally relevant or whether there is anything wrong in that is a
21 different matter. Did you see passports there? That's the question.
22 Could you please answer that question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see any passports. I saw
24 a pile of things though.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. That answers my question.
2 Tell us this next, please: To the best of your recollection when
3 on the 12th of July did you leave the area of Potocari?
4 A. Late -- in late afternoon, before dark. As was the case on the
5 13th. It was late in the afternoon. It was still daylight because it
6 was summertime. So my guess is between 7.00 and 8.00 p.m. --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Between 8.00 and
8 9.00 p.m.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you know whether during the night between the 12th and the
11 13th there were any transports, or was all transportation halted during
12 the night until the next morning?
13 A. I wasn't there, and I don't know. I don't think there was any
14 because my task continued the next day; that is, do not [as interpreted]
15 count the people. When I came there in the morning, I didn't see them
16 and I wasn't there during the night so I don't know.
17 Q. The convoys of vehicles taking away the refugees had to go
18 through the centre of Bratunac in order to reach Kladanj; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know that some members of the Bratunac Brigade MP platoon
21 also secured the streets so as to have no problems with the evacuation
22 when passing through the town?
23 A. There were some people there, and I can cite their names. They
24 told me what they did and they said that they were securing the streets.
25 That's my work-mates, policemen, told me later on. They said that they
1 secured the outpatient clinic in Bratunac, that some women were in labour
2 and people requiring medical assistance, and they also secured the road.
3 Q. Let us look together at a document from the duty log-book of the
4 military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade. And we'll comment upon
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter 04205
7 again, page 16 in the B/C/S and 13 in the English version of this report.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Mr. Weber, I was rather critical about an
9 incomplete translation. I meanwhile notice that the same name word
10 either written in Cyrillic or in Latin script appears on almost every
11 page and is always translated as "reception." So under those
12 circumstances, the Chamber does not insist on having a lot of work done
13 on that matter. Of course, if there are any other flaws, that's a
14 different issue.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if it's okay with you we'll just check
16 it just to be sure [overlapping speakers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but for that one page the word appears clearly
18 and the lack of -- we have another 15 or 16 pages to see what that word
19 means, and that is "reception."
20 MR. WEBER: Understood, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. As on the present page.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Thank you. It is
1 page 16 in the B/C/S and 13 in the English. Apologies. Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Janjic, again before us is a page of the log-book kept by the
3 military police platoon pertaining to the 12th and 13th of July. It is
4 stated that one part of the police force secured the sick and wounded in
5 the clinic, as can you see in the middle of the passage in the B/C/S.
6 Is this precisely what you told us about when you said that some
7 military policemen secured the wounded and sick at the outpatient clinic?
8 A. I can see this document, but this is the first time that I see
9 it. I mentioned that I know the names of people who told me about that.
10 Milan Ilic told me about the outpatient clinic. As for the centre and
11 the streets and securing the streets I was told by that
12 Borivoje Jakovljevic. He discussed the securing of roads and the centre
13 of town.
14 Q. Who were Ilic and his colleagues securing in the outpatient
15 clinic in Bratunac? Who were the wounded and sick?
16 A. The people in question were of Muslim ethnic background. I told
17 you that he mentioned that a woman literally delivered her child in the
18 outpatient clinic.
19 Q. Thank you. And when it is stated that they were securing the
20 passage of vehicles through Bratunac where the refugees from the enclave
21 of Srebrenica were being sent, is it correct to say that due to
22 antagonisms and poor relations there was an objective danger of letting
23 the refugees from Srebrenica go through the territory controlled by Serb
24 forces unescorted?
25 A. I would agree with you. Without any escort, it would have been
1 dangerous. Certain individual could get strange ideas and cause
3 Q. You hail from the village of Opravdici. If I understand
4 correctly it is a part of Kravica; correct?
5 A. Yes. Opravdici village belongs to the local commune of Kravica.
6 Q. Did you know that in that village too on the
7 7th of January, 1993, horrible things happened against Serb civilians?
8 A. Yes, I do know because I, too, participated in those events.
9 Q. Judging by the sentiments that prevailed at the time between the
10 two ethnicities, Serb and Muslim, was there objectively a great degree of
11 danger of people taking revenge and that it was impossible to contain or
12 control the accumulated hatred?
13 A. There was hatred, definitely. I can provide an answer to that.
14 However, I do not support taking revenge, and I do not second that.
15 Q. Thank you. In the document before you, it is also stated that
16 night duty, as stated here, was both at the school and in the
17 Fontana hotel. It says the UNHCR school.
18 Let me ask you this: Did you have any knowledge of members of
19 the military police working at that time at a location where UNPROFOR
20 members were accommodated?
21 A. I've no knowledge of they're being accommodated in Bratunac
23 Q. Where did you spend the night between the 12th and the 13th, in
24 terms of the Fontana hotel?
25 A. I wasn't there between the 12th and the 13th. Between the 11th
1 and the 12th, I was in the environs of the hotel. But the next day, I
2 attended to a different task, which was away from the hotel.
3 Q. Let me put it in a different way. Where were you between the
4 12th and the 13th, during the night?
5 A. Providing security for the Fontana hotel.
6 Q. That's what I asked you. Where were you when you say securing
7 the Fontana hotel between the 12th and the 13th? Where was it? Where in
8 the town itself? Or where in the hotel were you?
9 A. The security operation entailed a wider perimeter. There is
10 immediate security, wider security, road security, et cetera. On the
11 11th, I was on the first floor of the hotel. On the 12th, for most of
12 the night, between the 12th and the 13th, I was in front or at the back
13 of the hotel but I wasn't at -- in -- on the first floor. I was at the
14 reception of the hotel as well because I tried to catch very brief naps
15 of about half an hour in between shifts.
16 Q. Thank you. And on the 13th, in the morning, again, you were
17 tasked with going to Potocari?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Had you been given that task before by Nikolic, or did someone
20 talk to you on the 13th again saying you have to go back to Potocari? Do
21 you recall that?
22 A. I can explain in detail as to the 12th in the morning. It was
23 conveyed by Mirko Jankovic and supposedly Momir Nikolic was waiting for
24 us in Potocari. I can recall some orders from Momir on the 13th, but as
25 for the morning of the 13th, I know that we were told to go back. We
1 were literally said, Those of you who were in Potocari go back. And that
2 was in front of the military police building.
3 Q. Were you told that by your officer, Mirko Jankovic or by
4 Momir Nikolic?
5 A. I am confused between Mirko Jankovic and Mile Petrovic, who was
6 one of the commanders, or maybe Slobodan Mijatovic. But I would have to
7 speculate. I can't recall.
8 Q. So you had the same task on the 13th in Potocari; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On the 13th of July at any point in time, and at any location in
11 Potocari, could you observe or see any kind of mistreatment, abuse of the
12 fleeing population?
13 A. No.
14 Q. On the second day, do you recall whether food and water was
15 supplied as well by the civilian and military authorities from Bratunac
16 to the fleeing population?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you recall whether on that day you saw any civilian
19 representatives from Bratunac in Potocari: Ljubisav Simic,
20 Miroslav Deronjic, or Srbislav Davidovic aka Puce?
21 A. I didn't see any of them. As for the first two I know about
22 them, but I don't know this last person, Puce. I don't know who it is.
23 Q. Do you recall, if, on the 13th of the July, at any point in time
24 you saw Momir Nikolic in Potocari?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. On the second day, who was physically separating the able-bodied
2 men from the rest of the refugee population?
3 A. The procedure was the same, just as it was the first day.
4 Q. I would still ask you to tell us for the record who engaged in it
5 the second day.
6 A. The members of the special police.
7 Q. On the second day, did you see any VRS members or members of the
8 Bratunac Brigade, or even if we go more widely, taking part in the
9 separation of able-bodied men on the 13th?
10 A. I didn't see them. I didn't notice their presence, save for the
11 members of the military police.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask
13 to look at D24, which is footage. It has already been used with a member
14 of the monitoring mission of the UN. I think it lasted around three
15 minutes, after which I will have a few questions for the witness.
16 We will not rely on the sound, and we have already indicated as
17 such. We're only interested in the video recording.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll conclude with
20 this part.
21 Your Honours, with your leave, it seems that General Mladic has
22 some stomach problems. Can he be allowed to leave for a very short
23 period, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we -- is it his wish we take an early
25 break? In which case, we will do that. Or does he just want to be
1 absent for two or three minutes?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we may, we can take an early
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, first of all, Mr. Mladic can be escorted
5 out of the courtroom. He's the first person interested to leave the
6 courtroom. He can be escorted out.
7 And once security has escorted Mr. Mladic out of the courtroom,
8 the witness may follow the usher.
9 [The accused withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll take a break, and -- could the witness be
11 escorted out of the courtroom.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes
14 past 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 1.04 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.
17 [The accused entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, can we proceed? Yes, of course
19 after the witness has been escorted in. I'm asking because of the reason
20 why we had an earlier break.
21 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Janjic, before the break, we showed you an excerpt from a
2 video-clip depicting the distribution of food, i.e., bread to the
3 population of Potocari on the 12th of July. Did this jog your memory,
4 and did this repeat on the 13th of July?
5 A. If you will allow me, I would like to explain. I already
6 mentioned the distribution of food. I remember that on one occasion the
7 van that we had just seen left at the moment when the buses had not
8 arrived yet and food was distributed from that van. I knew some of the
9 people from that logistics platoon. However, all that food that was
10 distributed on the 12th, on the 13th, was happening some 200 metres from
11 the place where this clip was recorded and it was not distributed in this
12 way. I did not receive food, and from the place where I was, I could see
13 that each bread was cut into four pieces and each of the pieces of bread
14 was accompanied by a tin of cold meat, just one little tin.
15 Q. Did there come a time when you noticed anybody taking food from
16 the population, that they had just received?
17 A. No. I didn't see anything like that.
18 Q. To the best of your recollection, how long did you stay in
19 Potocari on the 13th? Until when?
20 A. Until late in the afternoon. I left before the dark.
21 Q. And then, on the 13th of July, did you -- spoke to
22 Colonel Jankovic? Did you have any communication with him?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On the 13th of July, you didn't see or you do not remember having
25 seen General Mladic in Potocari?
1 A. I really don't remember. I can't be sure of the dates anyway.
2 Q. At the moment when you left Potocari, was the process of the
3 evacuation of the population finished?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that the moment when Colonel Jankovic gave you your new
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When giving you that order, did Colonel Jankovic tell you to
9 forcibly bring the population should you encounter any people on the road
10 leading from Potocari to Srebrenica?
11 A. As I already told you a couple of hours ago, we were supposed to
12 inform them to come back to the same place in Potocari because there
13 would be a new round of transportation organised for them the following
14 day. That was our order.
15 Q. Did you meet any of those groups of people or individuals, and
16 did you force any of them to go to Potocari?
17 A. No.
18 Q. If you had forced them, would that have been contrary to the way
19 you understood Colonel Jankovic's order?
20 A. Of course. It would be just the opposite. Our order was to
21 inform people.
22 Q. To the best of your assessment, how many people did you come
23 across that evening, on the 13th of July, on the road leading to
25 A. You say the road. Yes, it was on the road, but it was only about
1 2 or 3 kilometres further we saw a few people moving slowly or sitting by
2 the road. We conveyed the message to them. They looked forlorn. They
3 looked concerned. That would be my estimate.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the number of
5 people that he came across.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness repeat the number of the people he
7 came across. Could you repeat that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said several dozens, in little
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] it was a request from the
11 interpreters. Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Just one more question that concerns both dates, the 12th and the
15 While you were in Potocari on those two days, did you hear
16 artillery fire which may have been opened from the general area of
18 A. No.
19 Q. On the 13th, in the evening when your mission was accomplished,
20 you again found yourself at the command of the military police platoon;
21 is that correct? Did you receive yet another order after that?
22 A. It would be more correct to say that once we accomplished the
23 mission, when I returned, I found Mr. Momir Nikolic at that same place in
24 the Potocari sector. He had already issued his order that people should
25 not go home but, rather, that we should report to the command of the
1 military police platoon because there were other tasks awaiting us there.
2 Q. It is very important to know the time. To the best of your
3 recollection, when was that? What time of day on the 13th of July when
4 you spoke to Momir Nikolic in Potocari?
5 A. Judging from my previous answer, you can conclude that that was
6 late in the afternoon. First, I accomplished my orders from
7 Colonel Jankovic, and then I talked to Momir Nikolic. It was late in the
8 afternoon. It was still not dark but it was rather late that afternoon.
9 Q. You said that you had seen Momir Nikolic on the 13th in Potocari
10 before he gave you that order; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please tell us - and again, please, let's focus on the
13 precise time - to the best of your recollection, when was it on the 13th
14 of July when you had Momir Nikolic facing you in Potocari, when you saw
15 him in Potocari?
16 A. It was on the 13th in the evening, towards the end of the day.
17 And before that, I saw him on several occasions on the 12th and on the
18 13th, so I can't give you any other times because I had several meeting
19 with him in the course of the 12th and the 13th.
20 Q. Thank you. That new order that concerned the night between the
21 13th and the 14th, who did you get that order from? Can you be more
23 A. We received that order on our return, and when we found ourselves
24 in front of the police command. Momir Nikolic was there. He had
25 preceded us in a car. He told us to join the colleagues at the
1 Vuk Karadzic elementary school in Bratunac.
2 Q. You mentioned a car. Would I be right in thinking that that was
3 a requisitioned Toyota?
4 A. I don't know if it was a Mazda or some other Japanese-made car.
5 It was a light blue colour. I don't know where he got it from. After I
6 was given my orders from General Jankovic, my colleagues who were next to
7 Nikolic and next to that car, I heard that he had driven that car out
8 from the UNPROFOR base. I don't know on whose approval. I really
9 wouldn't be able to say.
10 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your recollection,
11 what order was given to you that concerned the night between the 13th and
12 the 14th?
13 A. The order was to go in front of the Vuk Karadzic school in order
14 to provide security for the persons who were in and around that school.
15 I'm saying in and around the school because, later on, I saw that
16 there were people in the house -- in the school but there were also
17 people around the school, on the streets, in the town.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, when you use the expression "to
19 provide security for the persons who were in and around that school," do
20 you mean to provide security that nothing would happen to them? Or to
21 guard them and to keep them where they were that moment so that they
22 would not move?
23 In which way did you use that expression?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said "Stojanovic" and then
25 "Janjic." Was that a correction?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I started -- let me see ...
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether I used any name. But could you
4 please answer that question. If you said "providing security," is that
5 to keep them so that they couldn't go from where they were, or is it to
6 protect them from any evil that may have come from outside?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding of the order was
8 to protect them from any evil. To thwart any threat from them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's --
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That answered my question.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up a
14 document from Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez's collection. The number is P01132.
15 The e-court page I'm interested in is 127.
16 Q. This is a photo of the centre of Bratunac. While we're waiting
17 for it to appear, I would like to ask you, sir, to the best of your
18 recollection, where were the refugees accommodated at that moment, or,
19 rather, during that night? What locations did they occupy?
20 A. In addition to the school, and I heard from my colleagues that
21 the school was full. I didn't see it myself. I heard that from others.
22 I saw them, as you walk from the command towards the centre of town,
23 towards the Fontana hotel. There's a road to the left leading to the
24 police station and passing by the station and leading up to the school.
25 It is about 100 to 150 metres long. There were buses on that street. I
1 know that because I saw them. I went home because I resided very close
2 by across the street from the municipality building. I also saw buses in
3 front of the municipality building, and there were people on the buses.
4 I would like to add to that that there were two, if not three,
5 buses in another location. Across the SUP there was a bakery, and across
6 there, there's a little alley. There used to be a market there, and if
7 you went along that street, you would arrive at the football stadium. In
8 that little alleyway next to the bakery shop there were at least two
9 other buses. I'm sure of that because I could see that from the place
10 where I was stand.
11 Q. Look at the photo in -- on the screen in front of you. With all
12 due respect to what you told us previously, would you be able to find
13 your bearings and tell us what facility is encircled in red? Could that
14 be the school?
15 A. To be honest, I can't understand anything in this photo. I could
16 be of assistance by saying that I used to be provided with much clearer
17 photo at the BiH Court. And it was much easier to get my bearings on
18 that map. Maybe you have that.
19 Q. Well, my time is really limited. I suppose that we have that
20 photo. I'm not sure that it is.
21 In any case, to the best of your recollection can you tell the
22 Trial Chamber what was the total number of those vehicles in all the
23 locations you have just described for us, those vehicles, the buses where
24 you saw detainees?
25 A. I'm sure that I saw about a dozen buses. There was also a lorry.
1 I'm sure that there was one very close to where I was.
2 Q. When you say that that was your best estimate, would you say that
3 the number of buses was ten and that there was one lorry?
4 A. I would say a dozen, plus a lorry.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, I think the witness estimated 12.
6 Not to suggest 10 and 11 -- 10 and one lorry, I'm not quite sure I
7 understand why we are doing that. He gave his estimate: 12.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I heard in the
9 interpretation was some ten or so, plus a lorry. I apologise if my
10 conclusion was wrong, though it was not my objection to change anything
11 in the witness's testimony.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought in my interpretation I heard 12. Then
13 if that is the case, I apologise to you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think the words translated was "a dozen." A dozen
15 is from what I understand 12. That's at least my understanding o the
16 word. Let's proceed. It seems not to be a vital issue but Judge Moloto
17 is asking for great provision, and rightly so.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I just
19 wanted to clarify this for that very reason and now I'm moving on.
20 Q. I need to ask you one more thing. You remember an incident
21 involving those detainees. Do you remember some sort of shooting? If
22 you do, could you please explain for the benefit of the Trial Chamber
23 what happened.
24 A. During the night, around midnight, I would say, from the place
25 where I was, I heard from the direction of the school, which was some 70
1 or 80 metres away from where I was, I heard some men shouting on several
2 occasions. I'll try and tell you what happened and I could hear the
3 word, The people from Glogova, where are you? Glogova is place that I'm
4 familiar with.
5 It sounded like an invitation to a rebellion. Somebody was
6 crying, People from Glogova, are you there? Come out. In any case, the
7 words were more or less the same every time. It happened on several
8 occasions. And then I heard a burst of fire from the same direction from
9 which I heard that voice shouting to other people.
10 Q. Did you see any murders, any killings of the people, either in
11 the buses or in the school?
12 A. I did not see any, and I can state for a fact that nobody was
13 killed in any of those three or four buses and the lorry. That's all I
15 Q. Did you see people being taken off the buses, that they were then
16 ill-treated or abused or anything like that?
17 A. No. I didn't see any such thing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue. I'm looking at
19 the clock at this moment and wonder, Mr. Weber, how much time would you
20 need in re-examination?
21 MR. WEBER: Probably at the very least five minutes, but up it up
22 to ten depending on answers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May be a few questions from the Chamber as
24 well. I don't know how much time you would still need, Mr. Stojanovic,
25 but to ask the witness what he has not seen, if he has not positively
1 stated that he had seen something, then the Chamber will not accept that
2 he had seen other things but assume that he had not seen anything not
3 mentioned. But, of course, that is not, under all circumstances, a
4 reason not to ask someone whether he had seen something.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will abide by the
7 times given, and I will keep the Prosecution in mind. I'll try to wrap
8 things up soon.
9 Q. Mr. Janjic, on the 14th, the convoy with the people who were at
10 the school and on the buses left Bratunac. Did you see the convoy -- the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Please tell the Court, in your view, in your assessment, how many
14 vehicles were used to transport the people who spent the night between
15 the 13th and the 14th in Bratunac?
16 A. I think I said that a few times. I wasn't there until the end of
17 their departure. After the first five or six buses left, I left the
18 location too.
19 Q. Very well. I will try to get an answer from you in this regard:
20 As for the Rocevic school, did you go there on the 14th or the 15th,
21 bearing in mind what you recall as to the moment of convoy departure from
23 A. I really can't remember.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court
1 65 ter document 04205, page 23 of the B/C/S and 20 of the English
3 Q. We go back to the duty log-book kept by the Bratunac Brigade MP
4 platoon. The date is the 21st of July. If you look at the middle part
5 of the page, it is stated that that day, the military police provided
6 security for the route travelled by General Mladic:
7 "A patrol consisting of eight policemen was engaged in securing
8 the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory."
9 Can you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. First of all, can you recall the 21st of July and where
12 General Mladic was going to? In other words, what was the route you
13 secured in terms of his passage?
14 A. I can't recall. I think I mentioned today already that when I
15 discussed food and UNPROFOR soldiers while we were doing that, there is a
16 possibility I was there, but I don't have any knowledge or recollection
17 of it.
18 Q. Let's pause for the interpreters. It is our position that we can
19 see on the footage that on the 21st of July UNPROFOR left the Potocari
20 base and went to the Bratunac-Ljubovija bridge and then further afield.
21 And General Mladic was taped as seeing them off. Does this refresh your
22 recollection of any of your work-mates providing security along that
23 stretch of the road to Serbia?
24 A. I really can't recall, and I'd rather not speculate.
25 Q. The second note says what you've already tried to answer when
1 asked by Judge Orie; in other words, that you, too, at some point in time
2 provided security of the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory.
3 That note, does it correspond with your recollection that you,
4 too, were engaged in these tasks?
5 A. I think I was clear and that I established a link when I said
6 that between the 15th and the 20th I was engaged for several days,
7 perhaps one or two weeks, in Potocari at the base.
8 Q. Following these events, did you ever have another occasion to see
9 General Mladic?
10 A. I can't recall. I don't think so.
11 Q. And I will conclude with the following question: Given your
12 impression of what you could hear and see in the course of those few days
13 in Bratunac, what was General Mladic like at the time?
14 A. I don't know if I understood your question properly. Perhaps you
15 can clarify, if possible.
16 Q. What was the position of the people in Birac and the villages
17 around Bratunac and Srebrenica? And what was your position or your view
18 of General Mladic? In your words.
19 A. It would take quite a lot of time to explain it all, but all I
20 can say is that I am full of praise for his conduct. I have all the best
21 to say about him.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I seek
23 to tender three pages, if so possible, from the document which is
24 65 ter 04205. The pages being ...
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's the -- that's the book of the military police
2 platoon. If you want to -- you have to upload only those pages which are
3 relevant. I see there are 20 pages uploaded in translation.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the entire material is relevant and
5 really should be admitted in full. It relates to the activities of the
6 Bratunac MPs at around the time of the charged offences.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You mean in full, let me just say the [Overlapping
8 speakers] ... pages.
9 MR. WEBER: The 20 pages corresponding --
10 JUDGE ORIE: 20 pages.
11 MR. WEBER: Yes, to the translations.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The 20 pages translated. Nevertheless, they will
13 have then the B/C/S version is to be uploaded and limited to that
15 MR. WEBER: We can take care of that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You'll take care of that. I take it then that we'll
17 have a new upload. And then already the 20 pages which were translated
18 will receive what number, Madam Registrar?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Number D285, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D285 is provisionally assigned number to the
21 still -- to upload 20 pages in both languages.
22 Anything else, Mr. Stojanovic?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'd like to
24 thank you and the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Fluegge has a question for you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I would like to clarify one matter.
5 At the end of page 68 of today's transcript, you told us about
6 Mr. Momir Nikolic and that he issued his order about new assignments for
7 you and other members of the military police.
8 What kind of assignment was that?
9 A. The assignment was, and I imagine you're talking about the 13th,
10 after I have completed my task issued by Colonel Jankovic.
11 Nikolic's task was not to stray but to be in front of the
12 military police building, to receive new instructions. As I said
13 already, he did so in front of the MP building. He told us to go in the
14 direction of the Vuk Karadzic school.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was the new assignment you received from
16 him. Did I understand that correctly? Or was there a different,
17 additional assignment?
18 A. No. That was it.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well, Witness.
21 I'm trying to understand your evidence, what the activities of the
22 military police platoon were during those days. And I have a few brief
23 questions for you.
24 The first one: Was the military police platoon engaged in the
25 escort of Muslim refugees?
1 A. On the 13th, as far as the Vuk Karadzic school, the one I
2 mentioned, that was on the 13th in the evening. That is what I learned
3 from my work-mates, members of the military police.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And the following days? 14th, 15th?
5 A. I don't have that knowledge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then my second question would be: Was the military
7 police platoon involved or engaged or busy with the surrender of Muslim
8 people in one of these days?
9 A. Kindly explain to me the -- the word "surrender."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, "surrender," I understand that people give
11 themselves to another force and put themselves at the disposition of that
13 A. I will answer to the best of my understanding. As for any
14 surrender, the answer is no. If you mean the take-over of the Srebrenica
15 enclave, we were only engaged in securing the road between Sase and
16 Pribicevac. We were not participating in the take-over the territory.
17 The next day on the 12th we were engaged in securing the location
18 at Potocari as the population was leaving.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But it is not that people surrendered to your force
20 and then that you accepted them and that you would give them to other
21 elements in the armed forces. That didn't happen. Is that ...
22 A. Not as far as I know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then was your platoon involved in any way in
24 apprehending Muslims that were hiding in the area?
25 A. I heard, although I wasn't present, that there was a search of
1 terrain between Srebrenica and Zepa after all those events concerning the
2 13th and the 14th. It was at a later point.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But when -- were then Muslims who were hiding
4 apprehended? I mean the following: If you search the terrain, you may
5 find nothing. You can also search the terrain and then find persons
6 hiding and that you apprehend them.
7 Did the latter happen?
8 A. I don't know about that. I know there was a search of terrain,
9 I'm positive of that. I did not participate in it, and I'm not aware of
10 what the result of it was.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now in the -- I'm talking about the days
12 following the take-over of Srebrenica, well, up to, I would say, up till
13 the 16th, 17th, 18th of July.
14 Now, was your unit involved in apprehension and perhaps then also
15 securing of Muslims?
16 A. I've said already that I have no such information or knowledge.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you whether the following might
18 refresh your recollection.
19 In the document which received provisionally number D285, I read
20 for the 14th and 15th of July very short description of the tasks:
21 "The police was engaged in the escort of Muslim refugees."
22 If I go to the 12th and the 13th, I read that:
23 "The police were engaged in securing UNHCR and the surrender of
24 the Muslim people from Srebrenica in Zuti Most to the Serb soldiers in
1 Could I then move on to the 15th. There, I read that -- again, a
2 very short description of what the unit did. It's not much. But what
3 there is in the description is:
4 "The police worked on searching and combing the area, as well as
5 apprehending the Muslims found hiding in the area."
6 Then finally for the 17th of July, I read in what seems to be the
7 log for your unit and which is not very precise in every respect. I
9 "One police patrol remained in Bileca to secure and guard the
11 And that follows on a line which says:
12 "Patrols worked on apprehension and securing of Muslims in
13 municipal area of Bratunac and Srebrenica."
14 This gives a bit of a different picture compared to your answers.
15 Would you agree with that, and do you have any explanation for the
16 difference between your testimony in this respect and what we find in
17 this log-book?
18 A. This is what I can say. Perhaps the Prosecutor's Office have a
19 clearer picture because they have my statement from the Blagojevic case.
20 Let's say the 12th and the 13th, I have explained my activities
21 in detail.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you there. I asked you a few
23 questions, four questions. In the questions, I used almost literally the
24 language I find in the log-book. What I find in the log-book and what I
25 heard in your answers, to some extent you said, I wouldn't know; in other
1 cases, you said, No, this is what did not happen. I'm asking your
2 explanation for the difference between what I find in the log-book and
3 the answers you have given me a minute ago, if you have one.
4 A. I'll happily explain, but I can't be as quick and precise as you.
5 I did not at any time deny what you have read out. It was not my
6 intention to deny certain events or activities. I'm trying to explain,
7 though, why I may not be aware of some of them, if they indeed took
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you say your answers to the extent you said you
10 didn't know, it's just your lack of awareness. And, apart from that, you
11 do not deny that anything I have read may have happened. Is that ...
12 even if you said that it did not happen in the previous answers.
13 A. As regards my information, I don't know of certain things. I
14 certainly cannot deny that something may have happened, but the case may
15 have been that I was not informed or was not present.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.
17 Mr. Weber, we are -- if could you make it five minutes, that
18 would be preferable. Again, we need the indulgence of the -- of those
19 who are assisting us. So could you try to be as brief as possible.
20 MR. WEBER: I'll do my best, Your Honours. May I proceed?
21 Re-examination by Mr. Weber:
22 Q. Mr. Janjic, today at transcript page 45, you were asked about the
23 special police in Potocari. I'd like to take you to one of your previous
24 answers from the Blagojevic case. On page 9780, you were asked whether
25 they ever informed you or told you who had given the order to carry out
1 activities that you were able to observe them carrying out. That is, the
2 separation of the men from their families.
3 You subsequently stated:
4 "I asked the policemen who were next to me why this was being
5 done. They just explained what I had heard before, that Mladic said that
6 that is the way it -- it would be done" -- sorry. Excuse me, "... that
7 it would be. And that they were working in accordance with the plans."
8 When was it that these special policemen told you that Mladic
9 said that that is the way it would be done?
10 A. You're right, I was told that on the 12th.
11 Q. And where were you when these special police told you that?
12 A. I was already in Potocari.
13 Q. You make a reference in your earlier testimony that, "... they
14 just explain what I had heard before."
15 What did you hear before, and from whom?
16 A. I heard that from my police members, military police members, who
17 actually told me the same after General Mladic addressed the crowd of
18 people. He said that that the women and children would be transported
19 first and that the men would follow in the course of the day, but later.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please quickly have
21 65 ter 24511.
22 Q. Mr. Janjic, being called up onto your screen is an expropriation
23 of materiel supplies order dated 26 September 1995 from the Main Staff of
24 the Army of Republika Srpska. In the heading of this order, it says that
25 the commander of the Main Staff is issuing this order regarding to the --
1 related to material supplies from UNPROFOR base in Potocari village. The
2 remainder of this order lists the items that were to be expropriated from
3 the UNPROFOR base in Potocari. My first question to you is: Are you
4 sure that materials were taken from the UNPROFOR base on the dates that
5 you've described or whether they happened at some time later?
6 A. And what date is that? I said that I was there from the 15th to
7 the 20th and much later and that there were lorries upon lorries leaving
8 the area loaded with the stuff. I really did not pin-point the date, did
10 Q. Okay. It's not important. In this order, there's no reference
11 to any food supplies being taken. In fairness - and the Prosecution is
12 aware - we do have another document which is not currently on our 65 ter
13 list, which does indicate -- it's date 14 July 1995 from the command of
14 the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade which indicates that there were
15 receptacles for transporting bread, of which there were five, and
16 receptacles for transporting food, for which there were five. Does this
17 information refresh any of your memory with respect to either the date or
18 the items that were present at the UNPROFOR base?
19 A. As far as food is concerned, I adhere to my previous statement.
20 There was a huge quantity of food and all that food was unpacked by us.
21 We used this. We served ourselves to it at that time and much later for
22 a long time after that.
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I see the time and I'll let the witness
24 stand. However, I would ask just so it's available to the Chamber that
25 we bar table at this time 65 ter 24511, and Ms. Stewart has informed me
1 that the second document, if we could just have it marked for
2 identification for the time being, is 65 ter 28896. And we're happy to
3 wait for further discussions with the Defence concerning whether or not
4 28896, whether there's any objection or any other matters.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the document on our screen at this
6 moment tendered from the bar table, any objections?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, not to this document. I'm a
8 little bit confused, Your Honours. This document, 2886 is something that
9 we --
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second.
11 This document is now tendered by the Prosecution from the bar
12 table. Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
13 Please remain seated, Mr. Mladic.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24511 receives number P1449,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P1449 is admitted into evidence. And the other
17 document, where Mr. Weber asked it to be marked for identification,
18 Madam Registrar, was number ...
19 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1450, Your Honours. But may I just
20 mention the document is not available in e-court.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have to wait until a later moment,
22 Mr. Weber. We can't afford at this moment to continue any further.
23 Check whether the document you had in mind is in e-court, and we'll
24 then ...
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Time are a changing quickly sometimes. It's now in
3 Madam Registrar, could repeat the 65 ter number and the
4 provisionally assigned number for this document to be MFI'd.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28896 receives number P1450,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, anything else? Any further questions? But even
9 then, I would invite you to keep it as short as possible.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions arising from the
11 Prosecutor's question. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 Mr. Janjic, this, then, concludes your testimony in this court.
14 I would like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and
15 having answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by
16 the Bench. You're excused, and I wish you a safe return home again.
17 You may follow the usher.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and everybody in the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: I had two procedural issues, but I do not dare to
23 raise them at this moment. I thank very much all those assisting us
24 around this courtroom for their patience.
25 And we adjourn. And we resume Tuesday, the 14th of May, in this
1 same courtroom, III, and we'll start at quarter past 2.00 in the
2 afternoon and we'll continue until 7.00.
3 We stand adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.24 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of May,
6 2013, at 2.15 p.m.