1 Tuesday, 14 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Before we invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I
12 would like to briefly go into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 Could the next witness be escorted into the courtroom, and,
19 Ms. Hochhauser, your next witness is Mr. Celanovic.
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. That's correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Celanovic, I take it.
24 Mr. Celanovic, before you give evidence, the Rules require --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you make a solemn declaration. The text is
2 now handed out to you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. You don't have to read it in other
6 languages. Please be seated, Mr. Celanovic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You'll -- you'll now be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.
9 Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to
10 your right.
11 You may proceed.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
13 WITNESS: ZLATAN CELANOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
16 Q. Good afternoon. Can you please tell us your name?
17 A. Good afternoon. My name is Zlatan Celanovic.
18 Q. Mr. Celanovic, you have testified before this Tribunal previously
19 in the Blagojevic, Tolimir, and Popovic trials; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And before coming to court today, have you had the opportunity
22 recently to listen to your testimony in the Popovic trial?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And after reviewing that testimony, can you tell us was the
25 information that you provided in response to questions during that trial
1 both truthful and accurate?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you were asked the same questions today, would you give
4 substantively the same answers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were there any answers that you felt you needed to correct or
7 make any changes?
8 A. I don't think so.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, at this time I would tender
10 65 ter 28863, which is relevant excerpts from that testimony in the
11 Popovic trial and the associated exhibits.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, Mr. Lukic? We'll start with the
13 transcript. And, Mr. Registrar, transcript receives number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: P1451, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P1451 is admitted into evidence.
16 Associated exhibits, Ms. Hochhauser, could you go through them
17 one by one.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes, Your Honour. First would be 65 ter 04230,
19 which is the Bratunac Brigade interrogation notes, dated 13 July 1995, of
20 Mujo Husic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And it will receive number?
22 THE REGISTRAR: P1452, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P1452, Mr. Lukic, can I admit it into evidence?
24 MR. LUKIC: I do have some problems with following the numbers.
25 Give me one second.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- you find them on the list of
2 associated exhibits. The first one is grey, and then the next one ...
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If you're in need of another chart listing them,
4 I can provide you with them, with another chart with the list of
5 associated exhibits.
6 MR. LUKIC: That's fine. Now I found it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections. P1452 is admitted into
8 evidence. Next one, Ms. Hochhauser.
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: 65 ter 04231.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: P1453, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P1453, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Next one.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: 65 ter 04232.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: P1454, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. Next one.
19 MS. HOCHHAUSER: 65 ter 05307.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: P1455, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: 65 ter 13594.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P1456, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. Last one.
2 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And finally, 65 ter 14447.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: P1457, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. You may proceed,
6 Ms. Hochhauser.
7 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, if I may read a summary of the
8 witness's evidence. I've informed the witness that what I say is not
9 evidence only his testimony in evidence.
10 Zlatan Celanovic is a lawyer who served during the war in the
11 Bratunac Brigade under the command of Vidoje Blagojevic. In July of
12 1995, he was working in the moral, legal, and religious branch of the
13 Bratunac Brigade. At times he worked with Captain Momir Nikolic, the
14 Bratunac Brigade chief of security and intelligence.
15 Sometime just prior to the 13th of July, 1995, Mr. Celanovic met
16 with Ljubisa Beara, chief of the security administration for the sector
17 for intelligence and security affairs. Beara ordered Mr. Celanovic to
18 interrogate Muslims who were brought to him to see if they were in a book
19 which listed Muslims purported to have committed war crimes.
20 On the morning of 13 July 1995, Momir Nikolic brought
21 Resid Sinanovic, a Bosnian Muslim lawyer from Bratunac who was a former
22 colleague of Mr. Celanovic into Mr. Celanovic's office. Pursuant to this
23 order from Beara, Mr. Celanovic spoke to Mr. Sinanovic about allegations
24 against him but found the accusatory information unreliable.
25 Five or six other Bosnian Muslim prisoners were also delivered to
1 the brigade headquarters by soldiers, and Mr. Celanovic questioned all of
2 them and took notes of the interrogation.
3 After the interrogations, Sinanovic and the other Muslim
4 prisoners were taken to one of the schools in Bratunac. That same
5 afternoon, Mr. Celanovic observed transport vehicles, including trucks
6 and buses, filled with Muslim men who had been taken prisoner.
7 The evening of 13 July, Mr. Celanovic met Beara again, and
8 reported to Beara that only a few people had actually been brought to the
9 police building and there were too many Muslim prisoners in town. As a
10 result, Celanovic and Beara proceeded back to the school, walking by the
11 length of buses and trucks full of detained Bosnian Muslim men.
12 Celanovic could see the men inside the school, and he watched Beara go
13 down to the school and then look into the football stadium where
14 Celanovic could see parts of buses and trucks within.
15 And that concludes my summary, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser. If you have any further
17 questions, you may put them to the witness now.
18 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you. If we could please have 65 ter 13594
19 on the monitor. Oh, I'm sorry, it has an exhibit number now which is --
20 JUDGE ORIE: P1456.
21 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you.
22 Q. Now, sir, do you recognise P1456 and the markings on it, which
23 are a little bit difficult to see, in green pen, as having been marked by
24 you previously in the Popovic trial?
25 A. Yes, I recognise the document. Is it possible to zoom in part by
1 part? Well, now I can see.
2 Q. Now, because the markings in that green pen are a little bit
3 difficult to see, I'm going to ask you some questions about the markings
4 on the map.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: And if we could perhaps have -- I don't know
6 what colour is now available in the pen for the witness to make
7 additional markings. If we could just make sure it's not green. Thank
9 Q. Now, first, before you mark anything, just let me ask you these
10 questions. On the upper left-hand corner of what we now see on the
11 screen, it looks like four -- what we see are four white kind of
12 cylinders, and at the end of it there's a long green circle, or a long
13 green rectangular shape. Do you see what I'm describing?
14 A. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. Now, can --
16 A. I don't see the circle, though. Maybe if we scroll down a bit.
17 Q. Actually, if we can leave it where it is. Do you see --
18 A. A little bit more.
19 Q. Do you see on the upper --
20 A. Yes, yes. I recognise this facility.
21 Q. Okay. And can you tell us the long green rectangle at the end
22 of -- that you've marked at the end of -- on the upper left-hand corner
23 of the screen now, can you tell us what that is?
24 A. It's a building where the command of the Bratunac Brigade was
1 Q. And, sir, just underneath that marking there's a square in the
2 green ink. Can you tell us what that is?
3 A. That's a gatehouse at the entry point to the brigade command.
4 Q. Now, if you could with the pen that you now have just circle
5 again with a circle and a square those two buildings that you've pointed
6 out to us.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Now, can you please, sir, mark with an S the school which you and
9 Mr. Beara walked to as described in your statement at -- the description
10 is in the statement at pages 16 through 17 in e-court.
11 Do you need us to zoom in on the map at all to make it larger?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not possible. You will lose the
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Sorry, Ms. Stewart has just informed me of that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need for that. I can
16 see it. Yes, I can see it. I can see it. [Marks].
17 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
18 Q. And, sir, can you put an S for "school."
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Now, I'm going to direct -- I'm going to ask you a question now,
21 and then we'll go back to the map. So if you can just put the pen down
22 for a moment.
23 Directing your attention specifically to the evening of 13 July
24 when you walked with Mr. Beara into Bratunac such as you describe in
25 P1456, your earlier testimony, and you approached the school, can you
1 tell us were you able to see inside of the school, and, if so, what did
2 you see?
3 A. One can see into the school from the street. It was possible to
4 see people standing at the windows. In this particular case, those were
5 the Muslims, captured Muslims, who were locked up or detained in the
6 building of the school.
7 Q. And were you -- could you also from your position out on the
8 street hear anything from within the school?
9 A. Well, one could hear something. People -- some people were
10 standing at the windows. Some of them were shouting, "When are you going
11 to let us go?" They were asking for water, most of them did, and that
12 was all.
13 Q. Were you able to hear any responses given to those questions?
14 A. There was no one to answer. There were only guards securing
15 them, and they ignored their questions, comments, or whatever. That
16 probably repeated itself by the hour, and they probably got fed up with
17 providing them with answers.
18 Q. Sir, when you made those observations, both of what you've just
19 told us you saw and heard from within the school, were you with Mr. Beara
20 at that time? Was he with you when you saw and heard these things?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, I want to turn back to the map that's on the screen again,
23 and can you use the pen to mark where in relation to the school you and
24 Mr. Beara stood when you made these observations? Can you tell us -- can
25 you show us by marking -- by marking with a B, with the letter B, where
1 you were.
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Now, we see on the map a green line tracing from what you've
4 marked again as the headquarters to the school, and you marked that in
5 the Popovic trial as the path that you walked with Mr. Beara. And as we
6 approach the school, we can see a number of Xs along that road leading up
7 to the school. In the Popovic transcript, at e-court pages 27 to 28, it
8 indicates that these Xs are the -- show the location of the buses that
9 you saw with the Bosnian Muslim men.
10 Can you show us on this map how long -- how far on this road
11 where you've marked it that train of buses existed? So was it -- did it
12 take half that street or all of the street? Can you tell us where you
13 first saw them and where they ended?
14 A. Well, from the beginning until the end of the street but not
15 along the entire line that you see here. Between Gavrila Principa Street
16 and the school, and it covered the whole length as marked here. The
17 street which used to be called --
18 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreters didn't understand the name
19 of the street.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were buses everywhere. Maybe
21 I can make it easier by showing you on the map.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
23 Q. Sir, if you can put one X. Put the first X where you started
24 seeing the buses, where you first noticed them, and put the second X
25 where the line of buses ended, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, the interpreters had difficulties in
2 catching the name of the school. Or the street, yes.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER:
4 Q. And also if you could repeat, please, the name of the street
5 where you saw these buses so that the interpreters can hear it.
6 A. Hacima Midhata Street it was called before the war. Now, what
7 its name currently is, I don't know, because the municipality probably
8 changed it as many municipalities did. I know that it was called as I
9 mentioned, before the war.
10 Q. And if you could mark the map with an X on the beginning of
11 this -- on the part of the street where you first saw the buses and the
12 second X where the line of buses ended.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And the second X that you've drawn is around a curve, is that
15 correct, onto a second street?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did the length of buses go the entire way from the first X that
18 you've marked, around the curve to the second?
19 A. No. The convoy was parked. It wasn't on the move. But in these
20 side streets the vehicles were empty.
21 Q. So the location -- the buses that are in the location marked by
22 the second X were empty. The buses on the street, the length of the
23 first X that you marked, were those buses filled with people?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, just one last question for you. During this -- during this
1 time period on the 12th and 13th of July, did you see or hear about
2 anyone during this time period making lists of the Muslim men that were
3 detained there, taking names or making lists of those prisoners?
4 A. No. I haven't heard of anyone making such a list.
5 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, thank you for the time. That
6 concludes my examination of this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
8 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
9 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I apologise. Ms. Stewart reminds me that I
10 would like to offer the marked map into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, the number of the map marked by
12 the witness.
13 THE REGISTRAR: P1458, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1458 is admitted.
15 Mr. Celanovic, you'll now be cross examined by Mr. Lukic.
16 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, colleague.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. I'll start asking questions, and I will ask you about your work.
23 During the war and after it, your tasks included, among others, the
24 drafting of documents about the attacks of Muslim forces on the Serbian
25 villages around Bratunac; correct?
1 A. I collected statements about those attacks, yes.
2 Q. At the time you were qualified to do this kind of work, weren't
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. And you also co-operated with the commission for the
6 investigation into war crimes of both Yugoslavia and of Republika Srpska?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The brigade commander authorised you to take such statements.
9 Isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All statements you collected you handed to one of these
13 A. To both.
14 Q. During your work, did you receive information about the number of
15 Serb villages attacked in the area of Bratunac?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let us not enumerate that, but tell me instead which percentage
18 of Serb forces [as interpreted] in the Bratunac area was attacked by
19 Muslim forces. Was it above 90 per cent?
20 A. It was over 99 per cent. Only two villages were not attacked.
21 Q. Talking to people --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I'm a little lost.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You started off asking about villages that were
25 attacked. At page 14, line 13, you said:
1 "Let us not enumerate that, but tell me instead which percentage
2 of Serb forces --"
3 MR. LUKIC: Should be Serb villages. I didn't notice it. Thank
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Let us repeat the question for the transcript. Which percentage
8 of Serbs villages in the Bratunac municipality was attacked by Muslim
10 A. I'll answer differently. Apart from Polom and Slapasnica, all
11 villages were attacked by Muslim forces in the Bratunac municipality.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: How many Serb villages were there in the Bratunac
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 20 or 30. I don't have the
16 exact number.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Why I'm asking you this? Was it your impression talking to
19 ordinary people that, among these ordinary people, hatred towards the
20 Muslims was growing?
21 A. There was hatred towards the crimes on the part of those people
22 who lost relatives. Certainly friendship wasn't thriving because war is
23 war, and you always hate your enemy. You don't love him. It was the
24 same on both sides.
25 Q. Did you notice at the time that due to that hatred there was a
1 growing desire for vengeance among fighters and others?
2 A. No, but I sensed the desire for the war to end.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the second
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the second sentence of your
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among the people, there was the
8 desire for the war to end, just to end. There was no fanatic hatred or
9 wish for vengeance. I didn't notice that among the Serbs or among the
10 Muslims with whom I had contact.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Please tell us what were the consequences of the Muslim forces'
13 attacks at Serbian villages?
14 A. They were mostly the same over and over again. There were
15 killings, there was looting, and there was burning. At the end, the
16 goods, including houses and everything, was burnt.
17 Q. Thank you. Doing your work, taking statements from people and
18 interviewing them, did you establish the identity of the persons who
19 attacked the Serb villages and where they had come from?
20 A. They were Muslims who were staying at Srebrenica, but they
21 weren't all originally from there. The attacks came from the direction
22 of Srebrenica. There was a security line on their side and a security
23 line on our side. Obviously they were coming from Srebrenica and
24 withdrew there after the attacks.
25 Q. How long did those attacks go on from 1992 until 1995?
1 A. They went on almost throughout the war, but they were the most
2 intensive in 1992 and in early 1993. They were very frequent then.
3 There was some periods without attacks, too, when everything was quiet.
4 Q. Did the attacks continue while Srebrenica was a protected area?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I will now move on to your additional tasks. You assisted the
7 work of -- assisted in the work of the investigative bodies; right?
8 A. I don't really understand the question.
9 Q. You collected documents that had to do with war crimes?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also took part in inspecting convoys; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Will you agree with me when I say that those were not your
14 regular duties?
15 A. They were not. They were occasional duties.
16 Q. And these additional duties were given to you by your commander?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You reported directly to the commander about these matters?
19 A. No. If I did it, that meant that nobody else was allowed to do
20 it. The chief was Momir Nikolic. The transport lists and the list of
21 goods transported by convoys would later be given to Momir Nikolic, and
22 he forwarded them to the commander. If he really did that, I don't know,
23 but he certainly had archives of these lists that contained all
25 Q. You didn't report to anybody else?
1 A. No. There was no need.
2 Q. Is it true that the check-points around Bratunac functioned in
3 accordance with the orders of the brigade commander?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Let me now ask you about Mr. Sinanovic. Do you know how
6 Momir Nikolic and Mr. Sinanovic met?
7 A. Yes. I know from the statement of Rasid Sinanovic. He told me
8 that he had reported at the check-point or whatever it may be called,
9 because I wasn't there, at Pobudje which is a village that belongs to
10 Konjevic Polje.
11 Q. Was he moving with the convoy? I didn't quite understand that
13 A. No, he was not. He arrived on foot from Srebrenica. He came to
14 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. He went through the wood.
15 Q. Momir Nikolic handed him over to you; right?
16 A. He brought him to the office and reported to me that he had
17 brought him and that's it.
18 Q. While he was in the office with you, nobody insulted or beat or
19 mistreated Mr. Sinanovic in any way; is that right?
20 A. While Mr. Sinanovic was in the office with me, only I was
21 present, and later we were joined by a friend of his who had asked to be
22 admitted to see him. Only the two of us had contact with him, and God
23 forbid that we beat him or did anything else to him.
24 Q. Nobody ordered you to insult or hurt him in any way?
25 A. There was no one to give such orders, but even if so, it was my
1 personal decision not to hurt anyone. That is my personal choice.
2 Nobody can order me to do so -- or, rather, they could have ordered it,
3 but I wouldn't have obeyed.
4 Q. After that, Mr. Sinanovic was taken to the school, right, where
5 the other detainees were?
6 A. Yes. The police drove him from my office to the school.
7 Q. Other people from Bratunac visited him there; right?
8 A. I heard that only later. They were his neighbours or
9 acquaintances, a couple of them.
10 Q. These people who visited him at the school were also Serbs;
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You spoke to detainees twice with -- once with Mr. Sinanovic and
14 once with others. Who did you inform of this fact?
15 A. I didn't inform anyone, but I made a note.
16 Q. Did that note reach Major Jeftic or Commander Blagojevic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you met Mr. Beara, he told you that you would be involved in
19 the triage process, separating those who may have been responsible for
20 war crimes from the others; right?
21 A. Yes, he told me what to do.
22 Q. You said that you had a book entitled "The Chronicle of Our
23 Cemetery," and that it contains information about which Muslim fighters
24 from Srebrenica were found guilty of war crimes.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D967, please. Can we get that from
2 e-court. This is the very book, and we'll take a look at it.
3 Q. It is not usual to conduct investigations based on books, but can
4 we say that this book is one of the results of the investigations in
5 which you also took part?
6 A. Well, I wouldn't call it an investigation. It was really a
7 collection of information.
8 Q. How did you collect that information? Could you give us an
9 account in a nutshell?
10 A. By taking statements of the surviving inhabitants of Serb
11 villages that had been attacked. Many civilians had been killed, and
12 defenders of the villages, and goods were destroyed. And then we also
13 took statements from prisoners of war who were then exchanged. That is,
14 Serbs who had been taken prisoner and then exchanged for Muslims, and
15 even from the Muslim prisoners of war. We also got information out of
16 them, who of their commanders and units had done what and where and when.
17 Those were our sources.
18 Q. Were you involved in collecting the material for this book in one
19 of its segments?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the book itself, your name is mentioned as one of the people
22 working on it.
23 A. Well, yes. I remember having read it. There were quite a few of
24 us who worked on the book.
25 Q. When you questioned witnesses, certain forms were used, and I'm
1 talking about the witnesses, survivors from the Serbian villages.
2 A. Well, let me tell you this, the statements themselves were taken
3 in this manner: The typist would type their statement as I would relate
4 them. They would speak and I would make a summary of them, and at the
5 end they would sign it. However, there was a general form for such
6 situation, and I sometimes filled it out in order to know who the person
7 who gave the statement was and what he says. And after I had collected a
8 few such statements, I would hand them over to one of the commissioners
9 who were involved in these investigations.
10 Q. Is it true that the book itself deals with the chronological
11 order of the attacks on the Serb villages, that it contains the names of
12 the victims of these attacks?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. It is also stated that it deals with the historical reasons. And
15 speaking about the historical reasons, what do you know about that?
16 A. Well, I know that among the people, irrespective of who they
17 were, whether they were Serbs or Muslims, there was a long-lasting
18 suspicion as a result of the consequences of the Second World War. Many
19 more Serbs were killed during the Second World War in that area. Let me
20 just give you one example.
21 Our parents used to tell us that we mustn't forget the village of
22 Obad [phoen] where a Ustasha unit obliterated the entire village and
23 killed all its inhabitants. So all these things were happening also
24 after the Second World War, after the First World War in particular, and
25 there was a certain tension among the people, and this latent hatred was
1 present even during the Communist era. It amounted to hatred and false
2 friendships. Of course there were realistic and normal people on all
3 sides. They just wanted to be normal human beings, whether they were
4 Serbs or Muslims or whatever.
5 Now, everything negative that happened had its roots in the
6 Second World War, and it erupted, this unfortunate war.
7 Q. Is it true that many dead bodies exchanged with the Muslims or
8 had been subsequently discovered in places where they had been killed,
9 that many of these bodies were mutilated in a variety of ways?
10 A. Well, there were such instances. I personally didn't have an
11 opportunity to see anything like that except on two occasions, once in
12 the clinic when an examination was conducted or post-mortem was
13 conducted. The bodies were handed over to the relatives in such a state.
14 But there's another thing. I would rather speak about those who
15 were alive. When they handed over our prisoners, they were totally
16 beaten up, and they were barely alive. I know that for sure because I
17 was obliged to question them and to take a statement of them asking them
18 to describe how they had been treated by the opposite side.
19 Q. What was the name of the physician who conducted the post-mortem
20 examinations and forensic examinations?
21 A. His name was Dr. Veljko Macesic [phoen], and he was not the only
22 one who carried out this. At the beginning of the war, once or maybe on
23 a few occasions, there was Dr. Stankovic from Belgrade. I know, because
24 I saw him there.
25 Q. Let me now move in time. Particularly let's go now to July of
1 1995, because I want to ask you this: At that time, did you hear that
2 any of detainees was killed in Bratunac?
3 A. You mean in July in Bratunac?
4 Q. Yes. Yes. Can you please repeat your answer, because it wasn't
6 A. In July in the town of Bratunac, and I'm talking about that, I
7 didn't hear of any killings of the detainees or of anyone being killed in
8 the town for that matter.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. We're close to
10 quarter past 3.00, which would complete the first hour.
11 MR. LUKIC: And anyway, I'm moving to another topic so it is --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then this perhaps is the right time for a break.
13 Witness, could you please follow the usher. We'll take a break
14 of 20 minutes.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes
17 to 4.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.15 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 3.36 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 Meanwhile, I use the time. The Chamber has received a letter
22 with suggestions from the Prosecution in relation to expert testimony -
23 Mr. Lukic, I think you received a copy of that - asking for an
24 administrative hearing or at least suggesting an administrative hearing
25 on the matter. Do you intend to express your views on that as well or --
1 we haven't seen any response. It's not a formal motion but ...
2 MR. LUKIC: Definitely we will have something to say on that
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when could we expect -- or would you like
5 to do it orally or when do you intend to say something about it?
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 MR. LUKIC: I have nothing fixed yet, but I think that
8 Mr. McCloskey mentioned something to me during this break, and we'll
9 probably be able to inform you in couple of days.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Yes. Just for the parties to
11 know that the Chamber, of course, is very much inclined to focus on the
12 real issues in dispute, and if, for example, mistakes are made, that you
13 identify the mistakes and that you agree that a mistake is made, rather
14 than to go through all the details of many matters and rather focus on
15 what really is important. But for the time being, we'll then hear from
16 you as soon as possible, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: My -- if I remember correctly, we filed something.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't seen anything, but that does not mean that
19 you have not filed anything.
20 MR. LUKIC: I will check with my colleagues.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please do that and we'll hear from you.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- until then, perhaps you continue your
24 cross-examination of the witness.
25 Mr. Celanovic, it's not very polite to continue talking when you
1 enter the courtroom, but we're in the middle of a short conversation.
2 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. On one of those days you headed off towards Potocari with some
7 medical personnel; is that correct?
8 A. Yes. I believe it was the 12th.
9 Q. And you reached the Yellow Bridge, Zuti Most?
10 A. Yes, we arrived at Zuti Most.
11 Q. How far did you go?
12 A. As far Potocari.
13 Q. Do you remember whom you took to Potocari?
14 A. I took Dr. Vesna Ivanovic and a nurse. I don't remember her
15 name. They asked me simply to drive them up there.
16 Q. Did they tell you what was the reason of their visit?
17 A. Well, to provide medical assistance if necessary, because there
18 were a lot of people there, it was very hot, and that was what doctors
20 Q. Now, something relating to the issue of supplies of Bratunac.
21 Was enough electricity provided to Bratunac?
22 A. Well, for the most part, yes.
23 Q. Was there enough food?
24 A. Well, not exactly.
25 Q. After Yugoslavia imposed sanctions, did that contribute to the
1 deterioration of the situation?
2 A. Yes, it did.
3 Q. Was there any shortages of medication?
4 A. Definitely, yes, there was.
5 Q. Now, something about the international humanitarian convoys. Is
6 it true that several humanitarian convoys arrived in Srebrenica, many
7 more than to Bratunac? Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Can you tell us what was approximately the ratio between the aid
10 received by Srebrenica and the aid received by Bratunac?
11 A. It's easier for me to tell you in the numbers of vehicles. If a
12 humanitarian convoy arrived in Srebrenica, let's say made up of
13 15 trailers trucks, only one or two or perhaps three would remain in
14 Bratunac and the rest of them would go to Srebrenica.
15 Q. How well equipped were members of the Bratunac Brigade in terms
16 of uniforms, weapons, et cetera?
17 A. Well, generally speaking, the uniforms were made of very bad
18 material. We had camouflage trousers and jackets, but due to the
19 economic situation, it was bad. But as for weapons, it was pretty good.
20 We had automatic, semiautomatic, and heavy weaponry as well. Now,
21 whether that was sufficient or not, it was, in my view, given the number
22 of soldiers who were in the Bratunac Brigade.
23 Q. Let me now ask you about the Dutch soldiers in Bratunac. In
24 July 1995 you saw DutchBat members; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where in Bratunac did you see them?
2 A. In front of the military police building.
3 Q. Do you remember when that was?
4 A. I think it was on the 13th.
5 Q. Were they taken prisoner? Were they armed? Can you give us an
7 A. I don't think they were taken prisoner, because they were
8 carrying their own weapons. They also had helmets, bags, and they had
9 their weapons on their shoulders or in their hands. If they had been
10 prisoners, they -- or if they had been taken to the military police
11 building as prisoners, they should have been disarmed. That's why I
12 think that they weren't prisoners but that they had crossed over to the
13 Serb side. I'm positive.
14 Q. Do you know why they had crossed over to the Serb side? What did
15 you hear?
16 A. I heard about an incident, but whether that was the real reason,
17 I dare not venture to guess. But I heard that in one of the Srebrenica
18 villages there had been an incident.
19 I'm sorry. I apologise. Let me switch this off. I forgot.
20 There was an incident when Muslim forces attacked a patrol or a
21 unit of UNPROFOR, and on that occasion, an UNPROFOR soldier was either
22 wounded or killed. I'm not sure about that. And that must have
23 triggered their decision to cross over to the Serb side where they felt
24 safer. That's not only my conclusion. That's when -- what the
25 interpreters said to the military police commander, because neither him
1 nor I speak English and couldn't speak to them without an interpreter.
2 Q. Thank you. Now about the attack on Srebrenica about which you
3 testified elsewhere too. Do you know what the final reason was? What
4 was the straw that broke the camel's back, and why was Srebrenica
5 attacked although it was a protective zone?
6 A. I can only tell you what I heard. In 1995, before the attack on
7 Srebrenica, there was another raid of a Serb village, I don't know which
8 village though, in the Vlasenica municipality or the Sekovici
9 municipality, and there was the usual stuff, a massacre of civilians,
10 looting, torching houses, at a time when that shouldn't have happened.
11 There were international forces, it was a protected zone. And that was
12 that proverbial straw. I cannot give any further comments because I
13 don't know the reasons.
14 Q. Did you, before or after that, hear about the existence of a plan
15 to expel the entire population of Srebrenica?
16 A. I never heard of such a plan, but I heard of something else,
17 namely that the purpose was to disarm Srebrenica. That's all I heard
18 before the events.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 A. You're welcome.
21 Q. Let's return to Mr. Beara. We spoke about his saying to you that
22 you should check whether there are war crime suspects among the
23 prisoners. You were saying to him that it wasn't all right and that the
24 town was at jeopardy; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Beara told you at Bratunac on the 13th of July, 1995, that
2 all prisoners would be exchanged at Kladanj on the following day; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At that moment, were you waiting for the buses and trucks that
5 had taken the women and the children away to return?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So there weren't enough vehicles to transport all the men to
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's what Mr. Beara told you when you spoke to him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember -- and now let's jump back to 1992. Do you
13 remember when the first fighting started in the Bratunac municipality in
15 A. Around the beginning of June or July.
16 Q. If I were to remind you that the first victims fell on the
17 3rd of May, 1992, and the surrounding villages, would that jog your
19 A. Yes. I'm certain about July. I even know some dates. Everybody
20 from Bratunac knows about these things.
21 Q. At that time, I mean 1995, I'm now back at Srebrenica, you didn't
22 see General Mladic?
23 A. No. I only saw him once in my life.
24 Q. When was that?
25 A. When the Bratunac Brigade took part in the liberation of
1 Slivansko Brdo or Zeravica, because I was also sent up there as a member
2 of the command with soldiers and I took part in the fighting up there.
3 Q. When was that?
4 A. I don't remember. 1993 or 1994, possibly. I would hate to give
5 you a wrong date.
6 Q. Do you know, speaking about the men who had set off from Potocari
7 on buses, how were they separated from the women and children? Who took
8 them out of the buses?
9 A. I don't know how that was done. Probably they informed
10 everybody, using megaphones, that women and children and the elderly
11 could leave separately because the people had to know how to -- how to
12 group, how to form groups. I wasn't up there, so I don't really know.
13 Q. Yes. I know you weren't up there. You also mentioned that lists
14 of people who had come to Bratunac were not made.
15 A. No. I never heard of that.
16 Q. Who was supposed to make these lists at Bratunac? Who was tasked
17 with that? Should Momir Nikolic have organised it?
18 A. I don't know if lists were supposed to be made. I never thought
19 about that, because I was always convinced that they were being taken to
20 Kladanj and why make lists.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unused microphones please be switched
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that's part of
24 Momir Nikolic's remit. Anyway, nobody made lists. If they had been
25 made, I would know of it.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Did you know Colonel Savo Sokanovic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The Zeravica village, do you know where that is?
5 A. On Romanija, close to Pijanovac. I don't know what the nearest
6 town is, probably Sokolac, or possibly Han Pijesak. I was there.
7 Q. All right. Well, since you were there, do you know that, in
8 1992, Colonel Savo Sokanovic's father was killed in that village in?
9 A. No, I didn't know that.
10 Q. Momir Nikolic was your superior?
11 A. No.
12 Q. He wasn't?
13 A. No, he wasn't.
14 Q. Was he authorised to assign you tasks?
15 A. No. I received my tasks from the brigade commander.
16 Q. How would you describe Momir Nikolic?
17 A. How should I describe him?
18 Q. I mean as a person, not physically.
19 A. When he was doing well, he was rather arrogant. When he wasn't
20 doing well, then his mood would vary. He was a difficult person. I
21 don't know how to sum him up, but he didn't treat me badly, nor did I
22 treat him that way. When he needed assistance, expert assistance, he
23 would let me know, but he never showed an inclination to do anything that
24 was outside the usual rules of warfare, and that includes the treatment
25 of prisoners. He always treated prisoners fairly. I'm now speaking
1 about the previous years.
2 Q. We are drawing to an end. Just let me check if I have any more
4 At a certain point --
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Or, rather, could we move into
6 private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Celanovic, these were all the
10 questions I had for you. Thank you for replying to them.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hochhauser, do you have any questions on
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Just briefly, Your Honour, just maybe
15 two minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
17 Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
18 Q. Mr. Celanovic, on cross-examination you were asked at temporary
19 transcript page 29 about Mr. Beara's statement to you that the prisoners
20 would be exchanged at -- would be exchanged the next day but that there
21 were -- you were waiting for buses and trucks. And I'm just drawing your
22 attention back to that question and answer. Was Mr. Beara with you when
23 you saw the empty buses and trucks that you described to us earlier?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honours, if I could just ask your
1 indulgence to go into private session for a moment.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
3 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Witness, I may have one or two questions for you.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you took a doctor and a nurse to
23 Potocari. You took them there. What was the reason for you to go there?
24 A. The only reason was the fact that I had a car, and I happened to
25 be in front of the clinic, and they asked me for a ride because there was
1 no way for them to get to Potocari, which is 7 or 8 kilometres away after
2 all. That's the only reason I went up you there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you familiar with what other -- what
4 persons in the Military Police Brigade were doing during those days?
5 Your task was that you had to interview persons, I do understand, that
6 were brought to you. Did you have any idea about what your colleagues,
7 police officers, did during those days?
8 A. They were securing the officers in the field, they were securing
9 prisoners, and that would be it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would they take prisoners? Would people surrender
11 to them or ...
12 A. No, people did not surrender to them. They just guarded the
13 people who came to Potocari, and they acted as security officers while
14 escorting the officers. Normally they did not take part in taking
15 prisoners. They were not a unit engaged in the field that would be
16 actively involved in any operations on the ground, so their role was to
17 provide security both for the prisoners and our officers.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They would not be active in apprehending
19 persons, Muslims?
20 A. That's what I heard from members of the military police, that
21 they were not actively involved.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from what you heard, is there any other
23 basis for your answers, because before you said -- you said, "They were
24 securing prisoners, and that would be it." Then you said, "No, people
25 did not surrender to them." Did you have any basis apart from what they
1 told you?
2 A. I don't have any other basis. That's what they told me.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 A. Because I wasn't in the field, and therefore I wasn't able to see
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, but, for example, you went to Potocari. You
7 passed at Zuti Most. You didn't see any of your colleagues there, or did
9 A. No. Let me explain Potocari and what it means when I went there.
10 First I came to a building that belonged to the electric company, and
11 some 100 metres away I saw a small cordon of members of the DutchBat, and
12 they were actually the last line that the people from Potocari could go.
13 And I also saw many buses who were waiting to receive people. I did not
14 cross that line. I did not have any reason to go and mix with the crowd.
15 It is possible that they were either there or elsewhere, but I
16 did not see them. And the reason I didn't see them was that as soon as
17 these two ladies alighted from my car, I turned it and I went back.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. I have no further
19 questions for you. None of the parties has further questions for you.
20 Mr. Celanovic, this -- unless there's any -- the questions by the
21 Bench have triggered any need for further questions.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, one, if I might.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, of course you may.
24 Further Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:
25 Q. Mr. Celanovic, have you heard -- did you hear that
1 Mirko Jankovic, the military police platoon commander, went up and down
2 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road in a UN APC and called out for the
3 Muslims to surrender? Do you know that? On the 13th of July?
4 A. I am aware of that fact. He was the only one who knew how to
5 drive this particular vehicle and that he was riding along that route,
6 but whether he was calling people to surrender, I don't know. I did not
7 hear any fact about that. I know that this APC was used to go to
8 Konjevic Polje and to Kravica and back, and that vehicle belonged to the
9 DutchBat. That's all I know.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hochhauser.
12 This, then, Mr. Celanovic, concludes your evidence. I'd like to
13 thank you very much for come the long way to The Hague and for having
14 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
15 Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Two questions for the parties in this context.
19 Ms. Hochhauser, the witness testified that he had listened to the
20 transcript -- to the audio and that there was no need to make any
21 changes. Of course, we have to work with the transcript. Could I take
22 you to page 6635 of the transcript, the original numbering. I don't know
23 what page it is in e-court. Second line from the bottom.
24 "A. Not in that sense. I did thought mention the 28th Division,
25 and I didn't know there was a 28th Division. I asked him whether he --
1 that I did thought mention."
2 I had some difficulties in fully understanding it.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I suspect it would be "though" with an added --
4 an extra T.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes ... now, I've been thinking about that as well,
6 and then my next thought was: If you think that you have mentioned the
7 28th Division and you didn't know whether that existed, that comes as a
8 surprise slightly, because why would you mention something you are not
9 aware of that it exists.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: What I can do, Your Honour, is have a B/C/S
11 listener listen to the original audiotape for that -- at that location.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Lukic, I think you introduced the
13 book, "The Chronicle of Our -- Chronicle of Our Graveyard," 1D9 -- one
14 second, please.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: You asked it be on the screen. I don't know what
17 you want to do with it. Leave it as it is?
18 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the best way is to MFI it, since this book will
19 probably be used, for example, with the next Prosecution witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you hardly used it now. We can also
21 leave it. The reason why I'm raising the matter, because I would have
22 left it, you introduced as the book, where it seems to be excerpts of the
23 book. Is that -- at least I see page -- this one, it's jumping from one
24 page to another. So if you want to use it in the future, then perhaps
25 take care that we know exactly what it is that we're looking at.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? Then we leave it for the time being, so 1D967
3 doesn't receive any number at this moment.
4 I am looking to the Prosecution. We will have to take a break,
5 but I wonder whether it's of great use to use another 25 minutes for the
6 next witness and then get in some trouble anyhow time-wise for the
7 remainder of the day, and I'm --
8 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, I don't believe we have a witness
9 available before the videolink. This took a little less time than we
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is clear. That is true for both parties.
12 Then I will use the time for a few matters.
13 I first would like to deliver an oral decision. I'm just
14 checking whether the booths have received a decision. I'll deliver the
15 Chamber's decision on the Prosecution's request to substitute
16 Witness RM044 with a new witness.
17 On the 16th of April, 2013, the Prosecution confidentially filed
18 a motion seeking leave to add a new witness to its Rule 65 ter list as
19 proposed Rule 92 bis witness, in substitution of proposed Witness RM044.
20 Due to the fact that the Prosecution has not yet assigned a particular
21 witness number to the witness, the Chamber only refers to it as the "new
22 witness" for the purposes of this decision.
23 The Prosecution submits that Witness RM044 was to provide
24 evidence in relation to the alleged massacre at Grabovica school
25 including in the indictment as scheduled incident A.8.1, but the witness
1 passed away in 2012, before providing a witness statement satisfying the
2 requirements of Rule 92 quater.
3 On the 30th of April, 2013, the Defence filed its response
4 submitting that it does not object to the Prosecution's motion.
5 The Chamber notes that the subject matter of the evidence of both
6 witnesses concerns the alleged killing of a number of men in or around
7 Grabovica school on or about the 3rd of November, 1992. The Chamber, so
8 as to clarify, points out that the evidence in question relates to
9 scheduled incident A.4.4 of the indictment and not as mistakenly
10 referenced by the Prosecution in its motion, scheduled incident A.8.1.
11 Considering the inability of the Prosecution to present the
12 evidence of Witness RM044 as a result of this witness having passed away
13 and taking into account that the Defence does not object to the requested
14 substitution, the Chamber, pursuant to Rule 65 ter, grants the motion and
15 instructs the Prosecution to file full information in relation to the new
16 witness as required under the said Rule.
17 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
18 Then I would like to address the parties, but more specifically
19 at this moment the Prosecution, on the following matter: In the context
20 of the testimony of Peter Boering on the 18th of April, the Chamber
21 expressed concern with the practice by the Prosecution to deviate on a
22 more frequent basis from the stated preference by the Chamber to receive
23 Rule 92 ter evidence through statements rather than transcript excerpts.
24 It alerted the Prosecution to the fact that it would consider how to
25 proceed in this regard. This is to be found at transcript page 10003.
1 Upon admission of the 120 pages of transcript excerpts of
2 Peter Boering on the 19th of April, the Chamber noted that it may not be
3 so lenient in the future. The Chamber accepts that tendering transcript
4 excerpts rather than statements is in specific cases justified. With
5 respect to transcript excerpts that are longer than approximately
6 50 pages, however, the Chamber would like to urge the Prosecution to file
7 such motions at least four weeks in advance of a witness's expected start
8 of testimony so that the Chamber is in the position to consider whether
9 it would not perhaps be in the interests of judicial economy to hear such
10 a witness viva voce or, as the case may be, leave the Chamber with enough
11 time to request the Prosecution to take a statement for the witness in
12 question as opposed to tendering the lengthy transcript excerpts.
13 The first witness for whom the Chamber shall make this
14 consideration is Mirko Trivic, who is expected to start his testimony on
15 the 21st of May, 2013, and for whom there are 80 pages of previous
16 testimony being tendered. The Prosecution is urged to review the
17 80 pages tendered for Mirko Trivic to ensure that it cannot further be
18 reduced. In this regard, the Chamber has noted that for several
19 witnesses who recently testified, subject matter discussed in detail in
20 the tendered transcripts are then also elicited orally from the witness
21 during the examination-in-chief. This should be prevented so as not to
22 waste court time.
23 Then the last item I would briefly address is about MFI D285.
24 Exhibit D285 was tendered into evidence through Mile Janjic on the
25 10th of May and subsequently marked for identification pending provision
1 of a revised B/C/S version. And you can find this at transcript pages
2 T 11061 and 11062. The Chamber has been informed by the Prosecution that
3 a revised version of D285 has been uploaded in e-court under
4 65 ter number 4205A. The Chamber hereby requests the Registry to replace
5 D285 with 65 ter 4205A and admits D285 into evidence.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I make one correction of the transcript.
7 Line 12 of page 41, the page should be 11062.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we still hope not to end up in the 121.000s.
9 This now being on the record, I think we will resume, let's say,
10 a couple of minutes before 5.00 so that we can start at 5.00 sharp.
11 We'll then further hear evidence in closed session today.
12 We resume at five minutes to 5.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 4.24 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 5.12 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: To hear the evidence of the next witness, we move
16 into closed session.
17 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11115-11147 redacted. Closed session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Do I understand, Mr. Shin, that you have no witnesses for
10 tomorrow before 5.00?
11 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, I'd like to permit Mr. McCloskey to
12 address that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, do you have any witnesses -- one
14 second, please.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, my simple question is: You have no
18 witnesses tomorrow before 5.00 p.m.?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: The simple answer is no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any witnesses tomorrow before 6.00 p.m.?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any witnesses for the day after that?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can I refer this to Mr. Lukic from now on? No,
24 I'm just kidding. Yes, we have the two Srebrenica survivor women that
25 are arriving late tonight that will be ready to go on Thursday. Though,
1 like other witnesses last week and this week, we're finding both the
2 Prosecution and the Defence are taking less time and their estimates are
3 getting smaller, and as a result, we're getting -- we're getting some
4 gaps. I would like to think we're reaching a rhythm where we're not
5 contesting things that we thought were contested and I think I'll even
6 give the guidance some credit for this, though it is creating gaps that
7 we're trying rapidly to make up. But we could finish both women on
8 Thursday or likely the -- Friday morning, and we don't have anyone that
9 we can bring in Friday.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No way to start tomorrow already at 6.00 for, let's
11 say, for one hour? I don't have the estimates for these witnesses on my
12 mind. I don't know how vulnerable they may be in arriving and then
13 starting their testimony already the next day.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- that might be possible. We usually like to
15 give them a day to adjust. One of them has never testified before. The
16 other has testified before but is sensitive.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not know how much time. Again, I don't
18 have the estimates here at this moment. I then --
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would like to leave it in the
21 hands of the parties what is wisest to do. If that would mean that we
22 would start the witness only -- the witnesses only on Thursday, then the
23 Chamber accepts that. We expect the witnesses starting on Thursday, two
24 witnesses remaining, to finish their testimony this week, and if
25 possible, even on Thursday.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's looking very possible as I'm seeing the
2 new estimates that are coming in. We have 30 minutes for one of the
3 women and the other wouldn't be much longer, and I know their estimates
4 are shorter. So we could very well finish on Thursday.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I see Mr. Lukic is still hopeful, but not fully
6 convinced yet. Is that --
7 MR. LUKIC: Because my colleagues are actually cross-examining
8 those witnesses, Mr. Stojanovic and Mr. Ivetic. So I'm not sure about
9 Mr. Ivetic's estimate. I know Mr. Stojanovic's estimate.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we adjourn for the day, and we will
11 resume -- although we first will turn into closed session. We'll resume
12 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 15th of May, at 5.00 in the afternoon in this
13 same Courtroom III, if I'm not mistaken.
14 One second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day
19 of May, 2013, at 5.00 p.m.