1 Thursday, 16 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 The Chamber was informed that there was a brief preliminary
11 matter to be raised before we start.
12 MS. MACGREGOR: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President; good morning,
13 Your Honours.
14 After meeting with the witness in preparation for her testimony,
15 the Prosecution is seeking to redact two sentences from her proposed
16 92 ter statement, and these sentences are in paragraph 9 of her
17 statement. The Prosecution will not be relying on these sentences as
18 part of her evidence. This redacted version has been uploaded into
19 e-court with the same 65 ter number as the original statement, and it
20 also has been provided to the Defence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now the Chamber is wondering which two
22 sentences you are not relying on. If you could say the -- perhaps just
23 the first few words. You said it was in paragraph --
24 MS. MACGREGOR: It's in paragraph 9.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In paragraph 9. We have no paragraphs on the
1 version which is attached to the 92 ter motion, but I do understand from
2 one of my colleagues that it is the paragraph starting with: "When I was
3 in Potocari, I saw."
4 MS. MACGREGOR: It is, Your Honours. And the new version also
5 has numbers that has been uploaded.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. MACGREGOR: So I will begin the sentence where the redaction
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. MACGREGOR: "I was there when Mladic said," and the redaction
11 continues through, "I also heard when the males were killed." Does that
12 explain the two sentences?
13 JUDGE ORIE: And then we continue where it was, "I was on the
14 right side."
15 MS. MACGREGOR: That is correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Is that where we restart, then?
17 MS. MACGREGOR: It is, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. That is clear. If there's nothing
19 else, then the Chamber can be brought into the courtroom -- the witness
20 can be brought into the courtroom.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at the Bench, you'll see who is speaking
2 to you at this moment. I am speaking to you.
3 Witness, before you --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- give evidence, you are required to make a solemn
6 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
7 but the truth. The text is handed out to you. I do understand that you
8 can read. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that
10 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 WITNESS: SALIHA OSMANOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Osmanovic, we'll start your examination by the
16 Prosecution. The Prosecution will first examine you, and Ms. MacGregor
17 will put the questions to you, and you'll find Ms. MacGregor to your
18 right, close to you.
19 Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
20 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Examination by Ms. MacGregor:
22 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Osmanovic.
23 MS. MACGREGOR: Could I please ask that 65 ter 28891, the English
24 version of this document, be brought up.
25 Q. Ms. Osmanovic, I've asked for a document to be loaded onto your
1 screen in front of you, and while that is loading, did you provide a
2 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2000 about what happened to
3 you during and after the war?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Yesterday, was your statement read to you in B/C/S?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. Now, if you can please look at the first page of the document
8 that's in front of you. The English version on the bottom right-hand
9 side, are you able to see that?
10 A. Yes, I can see it.
11 Q. Do you recognise your signature on the bottom?
12 A. I do. It is my signature.
13 Q. Does that statement reflect the answers that you gave during that
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. And was the statement true to the best of your knowledge when you
17 gave it?
18 A. Yes, it is true. It is correct.
19 Q. Would you give the same answers in substance if you were asked
20 the same questions?
21 A. Why wouldn't I? Of course.
22 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
23 truthfulness and accuracy of your statement?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 MS. MACGREGOR: Your Honours, we move for the admission of this
1 statement as this witness's Rule 92 ter statement.
2 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: P1461, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P1461 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,
6 Ms. MacGregor.
7 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you. May I now read a short summary of the
8 witness's evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You have explained to the witness that it is -- what
10 the purpose of it is?
11 MS. MACGREGOR: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be patient, Ms. Osmanovic. The summary
13 of your testimony will be read now.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you.
16 Saliha Osmanovic is a Bosnian Muslim who lived in Dobrak in the
17 municipality of Srebrenica when the war broke out. In May 1992,
18 Mrs. Osmanovic fled to the town of Srebrenica where she lived with her
19 husband and two sons until the town fell in July 1995. On 6 July,
20 Mrs. Osmanovic's youngest son, Edin, who was 17, was killed by a VRS
21 shell. On 11 July, Mrs. Osmanovic's other son Nermin who was 18 and her
22 husband Ramo fled through the woods toward free territory. She never saw
23 them again. Fourteen years later, she learned that their remains were
25 On 11 July Ms. Osmanovic fled to Potocari. In Potocari she saw
1 General Mladic taking to the crowds of refugees. After spending one
2 night there, Mrs. Osmanovic was directed to board a truck. The men,
3 including her father-in-law, were separated from the women and some were
4 taken to an unfinished house along the road. The remains of
5 Mrs. Osmanovic's father-in-law were eventually found.
6 Mrs. Osmanovic and other prisoners, mostly women, were taken to
7 Tisca and walked to free territory. Since the war, Ms. Osmanovic has
8 lived in many locations. She relies on state assistance provided as
9 compensation for her missing family members. She does not receive a
10 pension for her husband. Since the war she has lived alone and feels she
11 has lost everything that matters.
12 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. May I now proceed with
13 the examination of the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may, but let me first address the witness very
16 Mrs. Osmanovic, I do understand that hearing the summary of your
17 statement to be read to you is emotional for you. If at any point in
18 time you need a short break or you want to just drink a bit of water,
19 don't hesitate to ask me time for that. So as long as you feel
20 sufficiently strong to continue, we'll do so. If you feel that you need
21 a short break or that you are in need of anything else, tell me as well.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask, then --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then Ms. MacGregor will now put the questions to
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you.
4 Q. Mrs. Osmanovic, in your statement from 2000 - and that's at
5 paragraph 7, Your Honours - you say that your husband Ramo and son Nermin
6 left when Srebrenica fell to try to walk through the woods to safety.
7 Did Ramo's cousin Kemal Osmanovic go with the men in the woods.
8 MS. MACGREGOR: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I do believe the
9 witness answered but I didn't hear a translation and I don't see one on
10 the transcript.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we check the microphone is close enough
12 to the witness. Could you please repeat your answer to the question
13 your -- the question was: Did Ramo's cousin Kemal Osmanovic go with the
14 men in the woods? Did he?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They left together to the forest.
16 I received information that they were seen in the forest, but I don't
17 know what happened afterwards.
18 MS. MACGREGOR:
19 Q. Thank you. Did Kemal tell you about being with Ramo and Nermin
20 in the woods?
21 A. Yes, he did. He did tell me after all of it that he did see him
22 and that Ramo went ahead to see where they would go through. However, he
23 was caught. I don't know what ensued. I wasn't in the forest. I was in
24 Potocari. I don't know what happened.
25 Q. And did Kemal tell you about when Ramo and Nermin last spoke to
1 each other in the woods?
2 A. Yes, on 13th. Kemal said he saw Ramo on the 13th and that he
3 talked to him in the forest. It was in the forest, not on a meadow. As
4 I told you, we had separated and I don't know what followed. He said he
5 just went to do some scouting to see where they would go through and then
6 Ramo was caught, as well as the others, and killed. They're gone.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. MACGREGOR: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip from
9 the Srebrenica trial video, and this is Exhibit P00147. Excuse me for a
10 moment. Pardon, Your Honours, P01147. And the clip starts at minute 18.
11 Thank you.
12 Q. Mrs. Osmanovic, if you can watch the video on the screen in front
13 of you.
14 MS. MACGREGOR: Your Honours, I think I need to correct the
15 transcript. It begins at minute -- 18 minutes. Thank you.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MS. MACGREGOR: And, Your Honours, the clip has an ended at
18 18 minutes and 57 seconds.
19 Q. Mrs. Osmanovic, do you recognise the man that's featured in that
21 A. Of course, I do. This is my man. He was calling out our son
22 Nermin and the others to come down, as I've explained, when he went ahead
23 to look for a way through. That's what I know. This is it. So he's
24 saying, "All of you, come." It was no genocide. It was horror.
25 Q. In 2000, when you originally gave your statement, you did not
1 know what had happened to Ramo and Nermin. Did you ever find out what
2 had happened to them?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you able to bury their remains?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. And when was that?
7 A. It was in 2009.
8 Q. And for the 14 years that they were missing, did you know
9 anything about what had happened to them?
10 A. Yes. Well, I watched TV, and I read it for the first time in the
11 newspapers, and I saw my man. That's what I saw.
12 Q. Are you talking about the video just now?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. And while they were missing, did you hold out any hope that they
15 might be alive?
16 A. Yes, I was hoping. I couldn't imagine things would turn out this
17 way. I couldn't believe it. My husband used to work in Belgrade, and we
18 had family friends. What happened, happened. The whole world can see.
19 That's how it went.
20 Q. In your statement at paragraph 8, you state that you went to
21 Potocari on 11 July. Did you go to Potocari from the town of Srebrenica?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And how much time did you have to prepare to leave your house in
25 A. I didn't reside in Srebrenica but in Dobrak, in my house.
1 However, I was a tenant in Srebrenica. We were expelled on the 8th of
2 May and went to Srebrenica in 1992, where we stayed until 1995. We
3 simply ran out of our house and set out. What preparation? They said,
4 "Potocari, good luck."
5 Q. And when you say "they" --
6 A. No preparation.
7 Q. When you say, "They said 'Potocari,'" who are you referring to?
8 A. Well, they did. Mladic. Mladic said Bratunac, Potocari. I
9 didn't even know this Mladic. He said straight to Bratunac and Potocari,
10 but my municipality's Bratunac. I married in Srebrenica. I thought
11 there would be another round of slaughter at the stadium in Bratunac when
12 we were stopped in Potocari.
13 Q. And when you say that Mladic said to go to Bratunac and Potocari,
14 are you referring to a video you've seen of him in Srebrenica?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you seen a video --
17 A. When we arrived in Potocari, that's when he said it. I saw it.
18 Q. Now, up until the moment that you boarded the bus in Potocari, do
19 you feel like you could have stayed in Srebrenica if you wanted to?
20 A. Stay? Where? We were in hell. There was hell when the Serb
21 army came in. I knew some of them. I knew a teacher from Bratunac.
22 There was chaos. How could we stay when we were being told to pack up?
23 Mladic said, "Go to Bratunac, and whatever possessions you had, leave
24 it." I was close to him. Not all of the witnesses could come close. He
25 said the Serb army would come in. He distributed some chocolates to the
1 children, and he spilled some water and gave to the people. I know that.
2 Q. In your statement, at paragraph 10, you say that your
3 father-in-law was separated from you in Potocari and taken to an
4 unfinished house. Do you know what happened to him?
5 A. No. I don't know. And not only with him. They were being
6 separated on the left-hand [Realtime transcript read in error
7 "right-hand] side to the house. I know the host of that house, and we
8 were on the other side, and we went to first Bratunac and then Tisca. We
9 were separated. I can't even describe what happened. It happened as it
10 did. He's gone. Many people are. Now, what happened there and who
11 separated, I don't know.
12 MS. MACGREGOR: Your Honours, I think -- the translation I heard
13 was "left-hand side" and I see that the transcript says "right-hand
14 side." So I'm not sure if I heard correctly or not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It will be -- the transcript will be verified on the
16 basis of the audio, Ms. MacGregor, and special attention will be paid to
17 this portion.
18 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Unless one of the parties considers it at this
20 moment of such relevance that it should be clarified immediately. Please
22 MS. MACGREGOR:
23 Q. Were the remains of your father-in-law ever found?
24 A. Yes, they were.
25 Q. And when you gave your statement in 2000, you were living in a
1 house that your brother had bought for you. Do you leave there now?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where do you live now?
4 A. I returned to my house in Dobrak.
5 Q. And do you live with anyone?
6 A. I live alone in my house.
7 Q. Have you lived alone since Ramo and Nermin left through the
9 A. I have lived alone, yes. Well, there were some people around who
10 had been driven out, but I have -- I used to live in my brother's house
11 alone as I do now in my house.
12 Q. And how are you able to support yourself financially?
13 A. Well, it's okay. I receive some disability pension. All in all,
14 it's good, as long as it's not in Srebrenica.
15 Q. Have you ever been employed in your life?
16 A. No. I was a housewife. My husband worked, and I tended to the
18 MS. MACGREGOR: Your Honours, I have no additional questions for
19 the witness, and I also will not be offering any other associated
20 exhibits through the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.
22 Before you start your cross-examination, I would have one
23 additional question for the witness.
24 Ms. Osmanovic, you told us that you knew that chocolates were
25 distributed, as you said, by Mr. Mladic, and water.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you -- you said you knew that. You knew that
3 for sure. Did you see that yourself, and did you --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it with my own pair of eyes.
5 I saw it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So did you see it when you were there at the time,
7 or did you see it on a video at any later stage?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Potocari, that's where I saw it.
9 It can't be in the footage, as if I saw the footage and then came to tell
10 you this. I saw him in Potocari. He said, "Whatever possessions you
11 had, discard of those, and the Serb army's going to come in." That's
12 true. I saw him.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Ms. Osmanovic, you'll
14 now be --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.
17 You'll find Mr. Ivetic to your left, standing there, and Mr. Ivetic is a
18 member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
19 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
22 Q. Madam, I will try to conclude my examination as briefly as
23 possible, and I would only ask you to pay attention to my questions --
24 A. Thank you.
25 Q. I will only ask you to pay attention --
1 A. Very well.
2 Q. Okay. Let's begin. Now, first of all, I'd like to ask you in
3 relation to your Rule 92 ter statement, and it's page --
4 MR. IVETIC: It's P1461, and it will be page 2 in both the
5 English and the B/C/S, and the paragraph that is marked with the
6 number 7.
7 Q. And, madam, in this part of your statement, you discuss how your
8 husband and son left and tried to walk to safety with other men through
9 the woods. What I want to know is if you saw them when they left so as
10 to know their appearance and what they took with them.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On that occasion when they left, did --
13 A. What would they carry with them? They just left as they were on
14 that occasion. They went to Kazani. It was the place called there [as
15 interpreted]. They fled Srebrenica in 1992. They were not able to carry
16 anything with them, either food or anything. Why would they?
17 Q. Ma'am, the question I have for you is on the occasion when they
18 left, did either your husband or your son have in their possession any
19 weapons or explosives?
20 A. No. How -- how would that be possible? Weapons and explosives
21 in Srebrenica? Everything was confiscated. UNPROFOR is the best placed
22 to tell you what the people in Srebrenica had.
23 Q. Thank you, ma'am, and we have had evidence from UNPROFOR. I'd
24 like to focus now on what you know.
25 A. Thank you. I'm glad of that.
1 Q. Do you know who made the decision that the males were supposed to
2 go to the woods while the females and children were to go to Potocari?
3 A. How can I know that? I was not a person in charge. I was not a
4 commander. How could I know that? I don't know. Why are you asking me?
5 Q. Madam, earlier --
6 A. There were people in Potocari as well, young people. It was
7 hell. People scattered in all directions. They were fleeing.
8 Q. Madam, today in the direct examination conducted by the Office of
9 the Prosecutor, at temporary transcript pages 9 through 10, you were
10 asked about the preparations you had before leaving the residence in
11 Srebrenica for Potocari, and you told them they told you to go to
12 Potocari, good luck, and now you've identified that you claim Mr. Mladic
13 is the one that said to go to Potocari. Is that your testimony, or did
14 someone else in Srebrenica advise you to go to Potocari?
15 A. There was a lady, but Mladic didn't tell us to leave Srebrenica,
16 because Srebrenica had been shelling. There's a difference between
17 Srebrenica and Potocari, the town. That's what I said. I know what I
18 said. Mladic told us that in Potocari on the 12th, when the whole group
19 of people was there. He didn't tell us anything in Srebrenica. And you
20 know, it was chaos and hell in Srebrenica. There was shelling. There
21 were aircraft. It was hellish. So it was possible [as interpreted] for
22 Mladic to tell us that in Srebrenica because nobody knew what they would
23 do or what they would -- where they would go. I know what I was talking
25 Q. Thank you, madam, for the clarification of when and where you
1 encountered Mr. Mladic. I'd like to focus on the time period before you
2 left for Potocari, and again I'd like to ask you what was the -- did
3 anyone tell you to go to Potocari, and, if so, who?
4 A. Let me tell you this: You know, when people set off, you don't
5 know where you're going, to which side. Just like if somebody started
6 shooting here, I would join the people and go with the crowd. There was
7 no one who could tell us anything. It was hell. There were shells. We
8 were close to Serbia, Skelani. I cannot say that I saw my neighbours in
9 Potocari, but I did see Mladic, believe me. I know that. I'm not a
10 fool. If I had seen some of my neighbours, I would tell you, I saw this
11 and this person. But there was shooting coming from Serbia. Serbia
12 committed genocide. What's the use of their apology now? What use is
13 the apology? I lost my husband. I lost my sons. I don't need these
14 kind of stories anymore.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Osmanovic, it's me now again who's addressing
16 you. Look just in front of you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Ivetic would like to know is a few details
19 which he needs to know. Could I first ask you, you said you left from
20 Srebrenica to Potocari. Now, who -- did you leave from your house -- did
21 you leave from your house, and did you then walk to Potocari?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Was that after shelling had started?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of May, we were at our
25 house. Serbia and Bosnia are divided by the Drina, and the shooting
1 started. My husband used to work in Belgrade for a company that had
2 projects in Algeria and other places. He was in Belgrade, but he came
3 home, and he was supposed to go back in his car. We were simply at home
4 without being aware of what was going to happen.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a second. You said
6 shooting had started. Now --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- who did leave your home first, you or your
9 husband with your son?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the last who left. My
11 children left, my husband and Nermin. They went to the woods. I stayed
12 behind, but then we rejoined in the forest across the hill. I was in
13 some villages over there, and then we went to Srebrenica. We were in
14 Srebrenica, and that's it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some confusion about the time period.
16 MS. MACGREGOR: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, Ms. Osmanovic, I am focusing on the
18 last day before you went to Potocari where you said you saw Mr. Mladic.
19 Now, you had been living for a few years in Srebrenica, or at least in a
20 village in Srebrenica, if I understand you well. Now, when you last saw
21 your husband, was that when he left your home where you had been residing
22 for quite some time? Was it there that you saw him for the last time?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We set off from Srebrenica. I
24 lived in Srebrenica in Veselin's house. My husband and my two sons,
25 that's where we lived in Srebrenica. They headed off towards Kazani.
1 One of my sons was killed on the 6th of July, and then on the
2 11th of July they set off from Srebrenica. There were thousands of
3 people, and that is when I saw Mladic in Srebrenica. No, I apologise.
4 Not in Srebrenica, in Potocari. That was on the 12th.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you there for a second. When your husband
6 and your son left, as you said, for Kazani, when did you see them for the
7 last time? Was that when they left home or was that at any other moment?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We left the house all together and
9 then we separated on the 11th. They went to the woods and I to Potocari,
10 and I never saw them again.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there again. You said you left home
12 together. Who decided that you would leave your home? Was it your
13 husband who said, "Let's go," or what happened?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't the only person who left
15 Srebrenica. Thousands left Srebrenica. Those who stayed behind
16 disappeared. Who was to decide that? Who did you expect to tell you
17 anything? You -- you had to leave.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So you decided to leave home together, and you
19 joined a large group of people. Is that what happened?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then there came a moment where your husband and your
22 son went in a different direction from where you went. Do you remember
23 when exactly and where exactly your husband and son separated from you?
24 Was that in Srebrenica? Was that on -- wherever it was. Could you tell
25 us, if you remember.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was in Srebrenica, up there in
2 Srebrenica, I do recall.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you remember, what did your husband tell you
4 when he separated with your son from you? Did he -- what did he say, or
5 did he say anything, anything at all?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He told me to go with the
7 other people, because my son, who was killed on the 6th of July, was
8 buried in Kazan, and when Srebrenica fell he just told me, "Go with the
9 other people and see what happens." That's the last thing that he told
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did he tell you why he went in that other direction,
12 or did you understand that he wanted to go in the direction of the grave
13 of your son?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you what was happening
15 at that specific moment, what happened. I don't know. I joined the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your husband did not explain why he
18 separated from you at that moment?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, he didn't.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I tried to explore some of the elements
21 I think you had on your mind you wanted to explore.
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very much for your
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic will now continue.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Madam, at the time that your husband and son left through the
3 woods on 11th July 1995, with the other males, was your husband still a
4 member of Ibro's brigade of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes. Yes, he was.
6 Q. And could you please tell us, for those of us that are not from
7 Srebrenica, who was this Ibro?
8 A. I don't know. I heard of Ibro, but I don't know.
9 Q. Thank you. And was your husband an officer or was he an ordinary
11 A. He was an ordinary soldier.
12 Q. Now, I'd like to take a moment to focus on the months leading up
13 to 11th July 1995. During that time period, was your husband spending
14 time with you or was he spending time with Ibro's brigade, or was he
15 spending time with both? If you could explain that for us.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think if you listen carefully to the
17 witness, she explained, I think, from -- what her husband did. So just
18 to give two options seems not to be the right thing.
19 Could you tell us what your husband did in the month before the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the army. He was both at
22 home and in the army. I can't say contrary to that because that is the
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
1 Q. Madam, during the time period in the month leading up to
2 11 July 1995, when your husband was in the army, was he wearing a
3 military uniform or civilian clothing?
4 A. I don't know. I have no idea. I know that he left the house in
5 blue jeans, but I didn't follow him in order to see what kind of clothes
6 he would be putting on. I was just a housewife.
7 Q. And now, madam, I also have to ask you in relation to your sons.
8 Were either of them also members of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica?
9 A. No. No. Why would children be?
10 Q. Now, in addition to your husband and your son Nermin, am I
11 correct that your two brothers, Salko and Safet, also went with the
12 column of men from Srebrenica through the forest?
13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, they did. My brother Safet was searched for and
14 found, and Safet [as interpreted] went through the woods and left
16 Q. If I can ask you, madam, with respect to your brothers, were
17 either of them part of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica prior to 11 July
19 A. I don't know. They were not close to me. I was in the house.
20 There were shells. I didn't venture out. I don't know.
21 Q. And --
22 A. If they were, though, they had to defend themselves, because
23 Serbia was armed. They had weapons. We had nothing. That's why we were
25 Q. Madam, I promised I would have my cross-examination as briefly as
1 possible. The only way we can accomplish that, if you please try to
2 focus on my questions and have your answers be focused on the questions
3 that I've asked. Is that understood?
4 A. Yes. Please, ask me.
5 Q. In relation to Salko, am I correct that he was among those that
6 successfully broke through the Serb lines to reach Muslim territory?
7 A. Yes, successfully, because he had been expelled from his native
8 place of Zaluzje. They wanted to kill him, but he was saved by a Serb,
9 and he drove him all the way to Tuzla, put him on a bus and drove him to
10 Tuzla. And after that he arrived in Srebrenica through the forest, and
11 then Srebrenica fell, and he headed off for Zepa, my brother Salko,
12 that's correct.
13 Q. And --
14 A. I even know the man who saved him. He was a bus driver on the
15 line servicing between Srebrenica and Bratunac. My brother was wounded
16 in Srebrenica. He was not in the army. I shoot at you, you shoot at me.
17 Q. Well, now I'm confused, madam. Earlier you said with respect to
18 your brothers that you did not know whether they were in the army or not,
19 and now you're saying that your brother Salko was not in the army. Could
20 you please clarify for us.
21 A. I don't know if he was in the army. I know that he had been
22 expelled from his village. That's what I told you. And I told you that
23 his Serb colleague saved his life and drove him off to Tuzla, and he
24 prevented his being killed. Then he went to Zepa, and two months later
25 he came to Srebrenica. And even if he was in the army, so what? One
1 must live.
2 Q. Madam, we're just trying to get to the truth and the only way we
3 can do that is by asking questions and receiving answers. So I apologise
4 if you are confused by my questions, but I'm just trying to clarify the
5 details so that we have the full, complete picture. Could you tell us
6 the name of the driver that you say saved your brother?
7 A. I don't know any names. I've forgotten the names. I don't know
8 the names.
9 Q. Fair enough. Madam, Kemo Osmanovic, your cousin, am incorrect
10 that he, too, was a member of the column of men that left for the forest
11 on 11 July 1995?
12 A. He told me, when I saw him after having crossed to the territory
13 in Tuzla, that he saw them in the woods, that Ramo wanted to try and find
14 a way out. That's what he told me. I don't know if they were together
15 and what was going on there. I don't know what was happening up there.
16 Q. As to your cousin Kemo, do you know whether he had previously
17 been a member of the Army of BiH in Srebrenica at the time that they set
18 out on 11 July 1995?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Okay, madam, now I'd like to move briefly to another topic. I
21 want to ask you about the situation in the enclave of Srebrenica in the
22 months leading up to July 1995. With relation to the humanitarian aid
23 that was coming in, am I correct that the same was being offered for sale
24 on the black market by the Bosnian Muslim authorities of the army and
25 civilian government?
1 A. I don't know about that. I have no knowledge about that. I have
2 no idea. The trucks with food were coming, but the trucks were sent back
3 at the Yellow Bridge, and whether they brought anything in, I don't know,
4 and what happened with that. I don't know. I didn't become involved in
5 politics. I don't need politics.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask one clarification. You said
7 the trucks were sent back at the Yellow Bridge. Is that what you heard,
8 or is that what you saw yourself?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that. People were telling
10 that trucks full of food were sent back. I only heard of that. I wasn't
11 able to see that. I cannot see either the Yellow Bridge or the trucks
12 from my place in Srebrenica.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question. Thank you.
14 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Just one further question on this topic before moving on, madam.
17 Did you have any personal knowledge or did you hear from others ever
18 about the existence of a black market in Srebrenica?
19 A. I'm hearing of it just now. I don't know what that is. What's a
20 black market? Can you please explain to me in a different way? I don't
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, in view of the answer of the witness,
23 there maybe better sources of evidence to explore the black market.
24 MR. IVETIC: I agree. I agree.
25 Q. I'd like to move now back to your 92 ter statement and it's
1 paragraph 10 on page 3 in both languages. And this -- this is the
2 paragraph where you talk about an encounter with General Mladic and when
3 he said that first the women and children could go and you all moved
4 towards the buses and trucks. And I have to ask you: How close were you
5 to Mladic on this occasion?
6 A. Well, perhaps 5 or 10 metres. Let's say 10 metres. I was close
7 enough, because it wasn't possible for everyone to come close to Mladic.
8 There were thousands of people who were unable to see or hear him but I
9 was able.
10 Q. And this encounter that is described in this paragraph of your
11 Rule 92 ter statement, was this the first encounter that you had with
12 General Ratko Mladic?
13 A. Well, yes, it was.
14 Q. And am I correct that that would have been, therefore, on the
15 12th of July, 1995?
16 A. Yes, precisely so. I saw him on the 12th, and I left Srebrenica
17 on a truck in the evening, and we went to Tisca. At least that's what we
18 were told. I thought that we were going to Bratunac. Mladic said, "You
19 will be completely safe," but I was in such a stress and fear that I
20 didn't hear clearly, but on the way we encountered their army.
21 Q. Now, you say that you left Srebrenica on a truck in the evening.
22 Did the encounter with General Mladic occur in the evening or during the
23 day time?
24 A. It was daytime on the 12th. There was chocolate. They were
25 distributing chocolates and water to the people. I know that. And I
1 boarded the truck towards the evening. Not only me. We were loaded
2 group by group. Some people were separated to the left, some to the
3 right, on the way to Bratunac.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I was about to go to a video-clip of
6 about a minute in length. I see the time. We could also have a break
7 now. It's up to Your Honours how to proceed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think in total you would still
10 MR. IVETIC: Approximately 10 to 15 minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 10 to 15 minutes. I am -- I was asking myself
12 whether we could have a late break and then -- but, of course, you might
13 want to consult with Mr. Mladic.
14 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, my client is agreeable to having an
16 extended sitting to try and accomplish the cross-examination of this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that you finish not later than
19 by quarter to 11.00. Please proceed.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
21 Q. Madam, first of all, you mentioned that there was water and
22 chocolates being handed out. Was there also bread being handed out by
23 the VRS soldiers to the Bosnian Muslim civilians that were gathered at
24 Potocari on the 12th of July, 1995?
25 A. Yes, certainly. They must have distributed, fed them, and then
1 killed them afterwards. It was an alleged distribution, told us to go,
2 pass through --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I think it would be better -- it is clear
4 that you are emotional under -- going back to what you experienced. At
5 the same time, we'd like to have answers to the specific questions, the
6 question being at this moment: When chocolates and water was
7 distributed, was bread also distributed? Apart from whatever other
8 feelings you may have had, was bread distributed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers the question.
11 Mr. Ivetic, could you put your next question to the witness.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 Q. With the help of the Prosecution, I would like to take a look at
14 a video to see if this accurately depicts the incident you're talking
16 MR. IVETIC: This will be from the Srebrenica trial video, P1147.
17 It will be from the subvideo number 9266, and is the first segment that I
18 identified for the Prosecution going from 23 minutes and 52 seconds to
19 24 minutes and 31 seconds.
20 Q. And, madam, I'd ask that you view this video and then I'll have a
21 few questions after we complete the same.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. IVETIC: If we could stop. And we have stopped now at
24 24 minutes and 31 seconds.
25 Q. Madam, is this the incident that you have described in
1 paragraph 10 of your Rule 92 ter statement, the encounter that you had
2 with General Mladic?
3 A. I wasn't present there. There were many people when he said
4 that. There were groups of people on the tarmac, on the road, and there
5 was a meadow nearby, but I hadn't gone that far to hear him say that. He
6 probably did, but I wasn't there. He just said that we will go to Alija,
7 but I wasn't --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what Mr. Ivetic would like to know is what
9 you described as having seen -- being relatively close to Mr. Mladic,
10 whether what you see on the screen is the same moment or is this
11 different, and were you not present here when he spoke these words?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no bread being distributed
13 here, no juice, no water, no chocolate, in this footage. Where we were
14 in the meadow, that's what I was talking about. That was before. As for
15 this, I hadn't gone this far. He probably did say this.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Are the words being spoken by General Mladic in this clip
19 consistent with the words as you remember them that you recall
20 General Mladic saying which you did hear?
21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has explained that this was not where
22 she was present. Whether it's consistent or not, we have the evidence of
23 the witness, we have this video, and whether there is any consistency or
24 inconsistency is a matter of judgement rather that anything else. Please
25 proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. Now I want to look at another segment of this same video, and
3 with the help of the Prosecution I would now play the segment from
4 27 minutes and 19 seconds to 28 minutes and 3 seconds, which should be
5 the second segment that I identified for them.
6 And, madam, again I'd like to have your assistance to watch the
7 video first, and then I'll have some questions for you.
8 MR. IVETIC: And with that we can begin.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. IVETIC:
12 Q. And, madam, do you recognise this incident? Is this perhaps the
13 encounter that you had described in your previous testimony?
14 A. Let me tell you, as for what he said, that's not what I heard.
15 You can see how many people there were. But on the -- at the other
16 place, he went into the masses, and probably no one shot any footage
17 there to be able to hear what he told us. He didn't say it to me alone
18 but to everyone else who was nearby.
19 Q. Madam, is it -- am I correct that there were UNPROFOR soldiers as
20 well as a tape barrier separating the refugees from the VRS individuals?
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes, it is. It is correct. I knew what UNPROFOR looked
23 like. I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't be everywhere, but
24 where I was, there were thousands upon thousands.
25 Q. I'm asking you is it your testimony that General Mladic crossed
1 the tape barrier between the refugees and the VRS soldiers and proceeded
2 into the crowd beyond the UNPROFOR soldiers by himself?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you want to have a clear answers, you
4 should adapt your questions to -- first of all, you are now putting a
5 different question from the previous one, and if you would -- yes. Well,
6 I don't know whether you're interested in hearing an answer of the first
7 question, because there was no clear answer to that.
8 Ms. Osmanovic, could you tell us, did you see at any point in
9 time a red and white tape separating the group you were in from another
10 area? Did you ever see such a tape?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. In all the trauma, I didn't
12 see it, in all that hell. I was sitting -- well, not only he. There
13 were Serb soldiers separating children and men to the left side, and we
14 were just sitting on the buses or the trucks. Some people were left
15 behind. It was all hell for me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you there. I do understand how you felt
17 at the time, but you have not seen a red and white tape separating the
18 group you were in from others. Is that well understood?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see it. I only heard in
20 the evening some screams, some hell, some moaning. No one could sleep or
21 anything. I saw people. I knew my neighbours from Bratunac. They were
22 on foot, walking next to me. One of them told me, his name is Salihad,
23 he told me not to be afraid.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Osmanovic, Mr. Ivetic will put his next question
25 to you.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Were there UNPROFOR soldiers separating the crowd of refugees
4 from the VRS soldiers at the time when you encountered General Mladic?
5 A. No. I don't know. I only heard General Mladic say that, what I
6 have already explained. He said whatever possessions you had, discard
7 them. The Serb army will come in. I saw him. He said so. Perhaps no
8 one filmed it. And what's the use of me repeating what I saw a dozen
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Osmanovic, I think you've answered the question.
11 Carefully listen to the next question Mr. Ivetic will put to you.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Did General Mladic enter the crowd of refugees by himself?
14 A. Let me tell you, I don't know if he was alone or whether there
15 was someone else in all that chaos and hell. I can't recall if he was
16 alone. There were just moments. You don't know. I couldn't understand.
17 They just told me it was Mladic. I didn't know the man. They said,
18 Mladic, Mladic. I can't say that I saw Karadzic or Boris Tadic or
19 Nikolic or this or that when I saw Mladic and I heard him say that.
20 Q. And, madam, I'd like to look at a -- well, first of all, the two
21 videos that we've already looked at, the demeanour of General Mladic, is
22 it similar to or different from the demeanour of General Mladic during
23 the encounter that you remember with him?
24 A. Well, there was hell where he said that and when I saw him. I
25 didn't take part in anything else.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Osmanovic, Mr. Ivetic would like to know whether
2 the behaviour of Mr. Mladic as you saw it on your screen a few minutes
3 ago, whether that was similar to when you saw him, whether he was
4 behaving differently or whether it was approximately the same when you
5 saw him.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He passed by, and he said what he
7 said. He passed us by. He said so. I don't know. This is better when
8 he said that the children should go to Kladanj in the footage we saw,
9 like he did to me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you say he was a bit more
11 friendly on what you saw on the screen compared to what you saw and heard
12 him say?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know what? It is simple for me
14 to watch this now, but there was hell in Srebrenica. I don't know how to
15 explain it or tell you. I can't understand any of it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. You said that General Mladic at that occasion told you to leave
19 your personal belongings. What personal belongings did you leave?
20 A. He said that we should discard our things, the Muslim people,
21 whatever we had on them, saying that the Serb army was about to come in.
22 He said so. It can't be that he didn't. He told us that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Ivetic --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If anyone had anything on them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. -- Mrs. Osmanovic. Did you have
1 anything with you which you left after Mr. Mladic had said that you had
2 to leave your belongings? Did you have anything you were carrying with
3 you and left, or --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had two photo albums with the
5 pictures of my children. I left them in Potocari. What else could I
6 have? I left my house on the 8th of May and arrived in Srebrenica. I
7 didn't have anything, as a housewife. What could I have? Where is my
8 husband? I was in another person's apartment.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left the albums in Potocari, the
11 pictures of my children.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us where you left them? Did you just
13 drop them on the ground, or were they taken from you, if you remember?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the ground. On the ground.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Next question, please, Mr. Ivetic.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Madam, at temporary transcript page 32, line 1, you said:
18 "He said that we should discard our things, the Muslim people,
19 whatever we had on them, saying that the Serb army was about to come in.
20 He said so. It can't be that he didn't. He told us that."
21 The question I have for you, then, is: Is it your testimony that
22 this individual -- this individual you identify as Mladic came and told
23 this to the people before the Serb army came to Potocari?
24 A. Yes. Yes. I don't know. I knew some of my neighbours from
25 Bratunac and Hranca and Kalimanici, from Bajina Basta. I knew them,
1 where I was seated. I knew them.
2 Q. Madam, my time is limited. I'd like to look at one more
3 video-clip with you.
4 MR. IVETIC: And this will be the same video, the segment at
5 24 minutes and 35 seconds, going through 26 minutes and 56 seconds. And
6 with the help of the Prosecution, if we could play that clip.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Madam, did you have occasion to hear or learn from the other
10 refugees that a delegation of civilian representatives from Srebrenica
11 asked General Mladic to evacuate the civilian population out of
12 Srebrenica, those that desired to leave? Was that something that was
13 talked about?
14 A. No. I don't know. I didn't hear of it.
15 Q. A similar question. Did you have occasion to hear other refugees
16 talking about the last part that General Mladic said, that they wished
17 that the resolution to the crisis offered in 1993 had been accepted
18 earlier to peacefully resolve the crisis? Was that something that was
19 talked about?
20 A. I didn't hear about that, believe me. I don't know. I don't
21 know. I wasn't interested in politics. How would I know what was going
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, madam. Thank you for answering my
25 Your Honour, I have no further questions for this witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
3 Ms. MacGregor, any questions in re-examination?
4 MS. MACGREGOR: No questions on re-examination.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Osmanovic, this concludes your testimony in this
6 court. I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to
7 The Hague, and the Chamber understands that being taken back to the
8 events in the mid-1990s must be emotional for you. We appreciate that
9 you came and that you have answered all the questions that were put to
10 you, and we wish you a safe return home again.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and thank you for having
12 invited me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You may now follow the usher.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.
16 MS. MACGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour. Just to make one
17 comment. I think it's evident that this witness obviously has some
18 confusion about what she remembers from seeing it personally versus what
19 she's seen in the video. The only evidence that she has provided about
20 General Mladic that the Prosecution will be relying on is that evidence
21 that is in her statement at paragraph 10 referring to General Mladic and
22 that testimony that she gave today that is consistent with that
23 statement. And I actually do have transcript references to places where
24 we will not be relying on her comments about the accused.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider how to deal with the
1 evidence given by this witness, and it is on the record that you said the
2 Prosecution will not rely on everything, especially not where the
3 Prosecution thinks that the witness may have observed matters on the
4 video rather than in a live experience.
5 We take a break, and we resume at quarter past 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
9 MS. HARBOUR: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then could the witness be escorted into
11 the courtroom.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mrs. Malagic. Before you give
14 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
15 is handed out to you now. May I invite you to make that solemn
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: MIRSADA MALAGIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated. Mrs. Malagic, you'll
22 first be examined by Ms. Harbour. Ms. Harbour is counsel for the
23 Prosecution, and you'll find her to your right.
24 Ms. Harbour, you may proceed.
25 Examination by Ms. Harbour:
1 Q. Good morning, Ms. Malagic. You testified before this Tribunal in
2 the Krstic, Tolimir, and Karadzic cases; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you have an opportunity to listen to your direct examination
5 from the Tolimir case before coming to court today?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you were asked the same questions that you were asked in the
8 Tolimir case, would you provide the same information in substance?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. HARBOUR: The transcript of the witness's direct examination
11 from the Tolimir case is 65 ter 28892, and would now like to tender this
12 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question before we proceed. I take
14 it that your testimony in the Tolimir case was to the best of your
15 knowledge in accordance with the truth.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: It becomes P1462, Your Honours. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P1462 is admitted into evidence.
20 MS. HARBOUR: I would now like to read a short summary of the
21 witness's evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You have explained to the witness the purpose of it?
23 MS. HARBOUR: I have done that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. Ms. Harbour will now read a
25 summary of what is found in your testimony in the other case.
1 Please proceed.
2 MS. HARBOUR: In May 1992, local Serb leaders in
3 Mirsada Malagic's village near Bratunac gave the Muslims an ultimatum
4 that they had to leave. Ms. Malagic and her family fled into the nearby
5 woods. Between 1992 and 1995, she lived in a number of villages in the
6 vicinity of Srebrenica and Potocari. During that time, she and her
7 family suffered from the deprivations inflicted on the refugees living in
8 the enclave. In particular, there was constant shelling in 1992 and into
9 1993, and there was never enough food to satisfy the needs of the
10 overcrowded city.
11 On 11 July 1995, the witness and her family were compelled to
12 flee Srebrenica. Her husband, two eldest sons, and brother fled into the
13 woods to try to reach Tuzla by foot. Ms. Malagic was injured by shrapnel
14 when the Serb forces shelled around the UNPROFOR camp in Srebrenica. She
15 made her way by foot with her younger son and her father-in-law to
16 Potocari. During the evening of the 11th and the 12th of July, they
17 stayed in the Zinc factory in Potocari. They could hear screaming and
18 moaning from nearby structures.
19 On 13 July, Ms. Malagic saw Mladic speaking to the crowd of
20 refugees in Potocari and assuring them that nothing would happen to
21 anyone. As she made her way with her son and father-in-law to the buses
22 to be evacuated, Serb soldiers separated out her 70-year-old
23 father-in-law along with other men. She and her younger son got on the
24 bus to be evacuated. Ms. Malagic never saw her husband, her two older
25 sons, or her father-in-law again.
1 And this concludes the public summary, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Harbour. If you have any further
3 questions for the witness, please proceed.
4 MS. HARBOUR: Yes.
5 Q. Ms. Malagic, I'm going to ask you a few questions first about
6 your experiences in the period beginning in 1992. In your prior
7 testimony, you testified about being forced to leave your village of
8 Voljavica and making your way through the woods to Srebrenica. You
9 testified at T 110 [sic] that:
10 "Srebrenica was deserted. Private homes had been torched,
12 When you arrived in Srebrenica and you saw that scene, what
13 impact did that have on you?
14 A. When we arrived in Srebrenica some 18 days after I had left home
15 in Voljavica, I was very disappointed. It was a very difficult day for
16 me, much more difficult than the moments when I was leaving my home. It
17 was because when you see so many torched houses in Srebrenica, all those
18 private homes, the homes of prominent people alongside two streets were
19 literally torched, and whatever I could hear and see and smell suggested
20 of burning. Occasionally I would see a stray dog, but there was no one
21 else there. It was a desert. All was grey, without people. When you
22 see your own town look like that, because you spend many years working
23 there, I used to work in the mine administration, the deserted town --
24 well, all I could do was sit down and tears began flowing in front of the
25 cultural hall.
1 And then I realised that we were in a vicious circle with no way
2 out. We couldn't go any further at all sides. In Potocari there were
3 check-points. We couldn't go anywhere. There were Serb soldiers at all
4 of the surrounding places, including Spat and the Zinc mine were in
5 Serbian hands, because that's where we had to leave from. My town or my
6 place of residence was also abandoned because it was blocked, and at that
7 time I began thinking where I brought my children to and why did I come
8 here in the first place.
9 For the first time I was afraid, not knowing how it would all
10 end. There were many incidents, many murders, many tragic incidents that
11 we could see when we were still back in our house. However, there was no
12 way out. We couldn't go back, and even then we were surrounded. Only
13 the Drina was there, which was always a border. We couldn't cross it
14 over into Serbia. Whoever managed to leave before that did, while the
15 other -- the others stayed in the villages. We were one of the first to
16 go down into Srebrenica, which was deserted. Everything was open, the
17 doors to apartments. Houses were burned. So you could take your pick
18 where to find accommodation.
19 We were in an apartment. My second-oldest son had a fever, and
20 we stayed there for a few days. After the initial four to five days, I
21 met with my brothers who survived in Potocari. We then went to their
22 family house, which was still in good condition at the time.
23 I spent the entire summer of 1992 there, and we stayed there
24 until sometime in December 1992, when we had to leave. We were exposed
25 to much shelling at the time, and many shells hit our family home, and we
1 basically moved from one room to the next until we were forced to go down
2 to the garage and had no where else to go. Then my brothers decided that
3 I with my children should go to Srebrenica. We found accommodation
4 there --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, sorry to interrupt you for a moment. What
6 Ms. Harbour wanted to hear from you whether -- perhaps not all the
7 details of what you found but, for example, that it made you very
8 depressive to see how the town was almost empty and that so much damage
9 was there.
10 Ms. Harbour, it's up to you to use your time in such a way that
11 you -- and you asked for one hour and a half, which is compared to the
12 previous witness, three times as much. Could I ask you to -- to try to
13 keep tighter control over your examination.
14 Witness, I hope you understand that we hear a lot of evidence
15 from many persons, sometimes very detailed, sometimes with less detail,
16 so Ms. Harbour will indicate to you where she is seeking the details and
17 where the overall impression would at this moment be sufficient to hear
19 You may proceed, Ms. Harbour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one correction on the transcript.
21 Ms. Harbour, you referred to transcript page 110 of the Tolimir
22 transcript, but it was 10010. Just to correct line 11 of page 38.
23 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Ms. Malagic, you have answered and anticipated indeed many of my
25 questions. My next question for you is: While you were living in the
1 area of Potocari and Srebrenica in 1992 and 1993, did you or your family
2 ever go hungry?
3 A. Yes. Practically from day one after we'd left our home we
4 suddenly didn't have any food. So on the third day after our departure,
5 my husband, my two sons, and a couple of relatives had to go back to our
6 home over the night in order to collect any food that they could find
7 because we were already short of food. And that situation continued. We
8 were looking for food by going to our native villages, and we mostly went
9 there during the night, and that was the only source of food that we had
10 because we were unable to carry anything with us when we left home.
11 Q. Just to give the Chamber an example, was there a period of time
12 in January 1993 when this hunger affected you in a very personal way?
13 A. Yes. In early January 1993, actually towards the end of
14 December 1992, people were virtually dying of starvation, and myself and
15 my family were in the same position. If you managed to get hold of any
16 food, you would keep that for your children. So as a result of
17 starvation, I fell ill.
18 There was a doctor in Srebrenica who remained, and he didn't flee
19 anywhere, and we asked him for help, and at that worst of all moments he
20 managed to give me four intravenous vitamin injections. I knew him from
21 peacetime. He was an occupational doctor. And he simply told me, "You
22 are hungry. You are starving." He couldn't give me any other
23 medication. He tried to help me recover with those injections. However,
24 after I received the third one on the morning at 9.00, this doctor was
25 killed that same day by a bomb that was dropped from an aeroplane. The
1 bomb hit the mosque. His house was close to the mosque. So as a result
2 he and other residents of Srebrenica who lived nearby were all killed.
3 After that --
4 Q. Let me interrupt you there. I think that's sufficient to give
5 the Chamber an understanding of what you went through.
6 Can we now fast forward to early 1995 before Srebrenica fell, so
7 around January 1995. Was there enough food to go around in Srebrenica
8 during that period?
9 A. No. The winter and January of 1995, and especially during the
10 springtime, people had to walk to Zepa to fetch flour, because you were
11 happy even to have a slice of bread. I had a sister in Zepa whom we used
12 to visit, and she offered us some food. They had more food than we did
13 in Srebrenica. I don't know how and why. So we brought this food back
14 and distributed it. We had one meal a day. We divided the bread to our
15 children, one slice each, just in order to survive, and that all went on
16 throughout the spring of 1995.
17 The idea during that spring was to sow any piece of land and
18 soil, every green area that can provide some crops in order for people to
20 Q. Thank you. I'd like to now turn to the events beginning on
21 July 11th, 1995. In the Tolimir case, you testified that after your
22 family set off together towards Srebrenica -- or towards the Srebrenica
23 UNPROFOR compound, your older brother, husband, and your older sons Elvir
24 and Adnan separated from you to try to reach Tuzla by foot. And this is
25 at transcript page 10014, and 10017 to 18. Where did you say good-bye to
2 A. Well, that was between the UNPROFOR compound and the hospital in
3 Srebrenica near the former petrol station. Let me just correct you. You
4 said Admir and Adnan. Actually, those were Admir and Elvir. Adnan was
5 with me. He was my youngest.
6 We all arrived there together, but as I already said, shells
7 started falling. There was a huge crowd of people. There was commotion.
8 So there was simply no free space. When the first shells fell, there was
9 commotion, and I actually didn't have a chance to say good-bye to my dear
10 ones. We just went our ways. Adnan, my youngest son, and I and my
11 father-in-law thought we would be unable to walk such a long way through
12 the wood, and we decided to go to the UNPROFOR compound instead, whereas
13 they went the other way towards Kutlici.
14 Q. Thank you for that. Why did your father-in-law stay with you and
15 your younger son instead of joining the men to go to Tuzla?
16 A. For a simple reason that he was poorly. He was an elderly man.
17 He was 70 years old, and he didn't believe that he would be capable of
18 travelling such a long way and that he would try to seek shelter in the
19 UNPROFOR compound. He believed that women and children would be at least
20 safe in that way.
21 Q. Did you take anything with you as you left Srebrenica and went to
23 A. Yes. When we set off, I took with me only one bag with a loaf of
24 bread that I had baked in the evening, and one of my sons also had a bag,
25 but when I was wounded by the shell, I wasn't able of carrying the bag so
1 I had to leave it. And when my son and I arrived in Potocari, we
2 virtually didn't have anything with us.
3 Q. You testified previously that on your way to Potocari, an
4 UNPROFOR trucked passed by you, and you saw your eldest son Elvir and his
5 friend in the truck and that they waved at you. And this is at
6 transcript page 10022 of your Tolimir testimony.
7 MS. HARBOUR: I'd like to please ask the court officer to bring
8 up Exhibit P1137, and we'll focus on page 4.
9 Q. Ms. Malagic, a witness who was at the Potocari UNPROFOR compound
10 testified that the document which will come up on our screen was a list
11 that they made of the male population in Potocari on the 12th of July,
12 1995, a list which they later gave to DutchBat. And that's transcript
13 page 9893 in this case.
14 Now, we have page 4 or -- in front of us. Do you recognise your
15 son Elvir's information on this page?
16 A. Yes. Under number 22, Malagic, Elvir. Voljavica.
17 MS. HARBOUR: Thank you. I'm finished with this document.
18 Q. You testified previously that on the morning of 13 July 1995, you
19 heard General Mladic speaking, telling people that nothing was going to
20 happen to anyone. And this is transcript page 10034 of your Tolimir
22 Can I ask you, who was Mladic speaking to when he said this?
23 A. Well, you know, there was a huge crowd of people there. I didn't
24 have a watch at the time, so I can't tell you when was that, but all of a
25 sudden, after the night of the 12th of July, everybody wanted to leave
1 Potocari. Everything that they experienced during the night, including
2 myself, forced those people to hurry up. A few went outside into the
3 street. There was so many people there. It was enormously hot. There
4 were many people. There was a huge crowd. So it wasn't possible for
5 everyone to come close to the place where the Serbian soldiers and
6 General Mladic came.
7 Anyway, when they and he addressed the crowd, and the crowd was
8 standing, I think that was within the compound of the former
9 slaughterhouse, and next to it is the Srebrenica transport company, and
10 there was a barricade nearby that we later crossed over to board the
11 buses. Anyway, he addressed this crowd of women, men, and children
12 closest to him had, but since there were so many people, we weren't all
13 able to be nearby, but a promise was made that enough buses would be
14 provided for evacuation, that nobody would come into harm's way, that we
15 shouldn't be afraid.
16 So in response, the people closest by applauded. Probably at
17 that point in time they believed that that would be true, but it seems
18 that this was only for the cameras, and nothing that happened later was
19 even remotely close to what we had expected. And when we arrived at the
20 barricade, nobody from Potocari was able to cross over.
21 Q. Was Mladic in Potocari on the 12th of July as well?
22 A. Yes. Yes. Although I couldn't see him then. I was within the
23 Zinc company compound, but my sister was there. She was seeing off her
24 daughters when a promise was made that women with babies would be
25 evacuated first. She had a baby with her, and General Mladic and the
1 Serbian Army arrived from Bratunac. Then I saw buses and trucks, but
2 they were far away. I wasn't able to see who they belonged to until the
3 next day when I crossed over the barricade and boarded it.
4 Q. So your sister told you that she had seen General Mladic on the
5 12th. Is that correct?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Could we return for a moment to the men in your family who fled
8 into the woods from Srebrenica toward Tuzla. You told the Court in the
9 Tolimir case that on the 11th of July, your younger brother went toward
10 Potocari for food, and later your older brother, your husband, and your
11 sons went on foot into the woods. And this was at transcript page 10014
12 in that case.
13 Did your younger brother manage to reunite with the group that
14 headed into the woods, and that is with your older brother and your
15 husband and your sons?
16 A. Yes. They reunited in Buljim, I think, or any of the villages up
17 there, and from there they proceeded towards Tuzla all together.
18 Q. Did your brother survive the journey all the way to Tuzla?
19 A. Yes. Both my younger and elder brothers were lucky enough to
20 reach what we believed was the free territory, but when they came across
21 the first ambush at Kamenica, they separated and they lost sight of each
22 other and nobody was with anyone else any longer. Only in Nezuci, after
23 having exited from the woods, did my brothers reunite, whereas my husband
24 and my sons never appeared again.
25 Q. After you were evacuated from Potocari, what did you do to try to
1 find your husband and your sons Admir and Elvir?
2 A. Well, the first people who emerged from the woods were driven to
3 Zivinice. That was actually a field or a point where they were brought
4 on board buses and trucks. I tried to go there and locate anyone.
5 However, in that first group I didn't see my brothers either because they
6 were not there. They found a brother-in-law of one of my brothers who
7 was in Tuzla, and they drove him to his father in Banovici, because my
8 younger brother was unable to walk any longer. They had to carry him to
9 the nearby medical centre for treatment. Only after a few days when he
10 recovered a little they managed to locate me, because I was staying in a
11 school in Zivinice where I was brought from the Tuzla airport, and that
12 is where I reunited with my brothers.
13 Q. You told us in your prior testimony that you were never able to
14 reunite with your husband or your sons. What was it like for you not
15 knowing where they were, your husband and your sons?
16 A. Well, that was a great shock. I looked at every man arriving
17 there, but when you set off there but you had a kind of premonition that
18 the one you're waiting for would not be there. However, when I saw my
19 brothers, I was happy to see them survive, but I was equally shocked and
20 disappointed, and I had some bad premonition that something terrible had
21 happened to them and that they would never appear again. Despite that, I
22 was hopeful during those days that they might appear, that they were
23 alive, and this is what kept me going with my life, this kind of
24 anticipation and expectation, but with every day that passed, it became
25 weaker and weaker, and we know what was eventually confirmed.
1 Q. In the Tolimir case, at transcript 10040 of that case, you told
2 the Chamber that your father-in-law, your husband, and your middle son
3 Admir had been found and buried. Do you know where their remains were
5 A. Yes. My father-in-law was found in a grave in Snagovo near
6 Zvornik. It's all Zvornik municipality. And my husband and my middle
7 son Admir were found at Zvornicka Kamenica. A year later, my elder son
8 Admir [as interpreted] was also found in Zvornicka Kamenica, and he was
9 buried on the 11th of July of 2012, and we buried my husband and my
10 middle son in November 2010, which was 15 years after the fall of
12 Q. Just to clarify the record, you just referred to your eldest son
13 Elvir -- or Admir. That was actually Elvir; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I have only a few more questions for you today. During your
16 testimony in the Krstic case, you told the Chamber about a statue or a
17 monument that you saw while you were walking around The Hague, and you
18 told the Chamber about its significance to you. Now, before we talk
19 about what that statue meant to you, could you just describe what that
20 statue was and where it was?
21 A. When I came in 2000 to testify in the Krstic case, we had some
22 time so we took a walk around the town. I was in a hotel at the beach,
23 and I didn't know the city too well. However, we came across a statue,
24 and this statue has woken something in me. It is a woman glaring, and of
25 course since I didn't know the language, I asked the woman who took us
1 for a walk what was written on the monument and what it represented. She
2 told us that that was a monument to the fishermen who were killed, that
3 there were so many of them who killed -- who were killed that their wives
4 and sisters were waiting for them for years and years, but none of the
5 fishermen returned because there were lots of shipwrecks and other
7 I saw myself in the statue of that woman who had such a lost
8 sight on her face. I didn't know either what was the destiny of my
9 husband and my sons and other relatives. And I wanted to try and find to
10 buy a small copy of this statue, because I thought that we were
11 comparable, because we were both gazing, only I was gazing through this
12 huge forest in which all our husbands, sons, and other men disappeared.
13 And this sentiment that emerged within me gave me hope to keep waiting.
14 However, in 2009, I received a first report from the centre in Tuzla that
15 the remains of my husband had been found. A few months later, I received
16 a report that my middle son Elvir was found. I had to go and identify
17 them, and we buried them, as I said, in 2010, on the 15th anniversary of
18 the fall of Srebrenica. Then in 2011, I received another invitation to
19 come and identify my oldest son. When I buried him at the memorial
20 centre in Potocari, that was the time when I buried my last hope with me.
21 All my close relatives, my entire family, was under the ground. I had no
22 hope whatsoever. There was no one that I could wait for. The truth had
23 come out, and it became apparent that I'm really alone.
24 And I'm still cherishing this statue that I bought in this city
25 which I have visited for a fourth time this time. I'm sorry that it had
1 to be in that way, and I would like to thank everyone who gave me an
2 opportunity to come here, to tell me what I think and how I feel, and to
3 just give a piece of the truth that all my fellow countrywomen had
5 Q. Thank you very much for your testimony.
6 MS. HARBOUR: I have no further questions for this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Harbour.
8 Ms. Malagic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, you'll find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel
10 for Mr. Mladic.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. I deeply regret the loss
13 you have suffered and which cannot be compensated for.
14 Given the fact that we come from the same part of the world and
15 speak the same language, I just wanted to ask you to briefly pause
16 between question and answer so that we could have it all in the
17 transcript. I will not have many questions for you.
18 I would kindly ask you to tell us the following: When you
19 mentioned in your examination-in-chief that you left your village of
20 Voljavica, please tell the Court when it happened, to the best of your
22 A. On the 12th of May, 1992, at 7.30 p.m. That's when I left my
23 home and my village.
24 Q. Tell the Chamber the following, please: To the best of your
25 knowledge, what kind of unit was it, what kind of people they were to
1 give you such an order to move out?
2 A. I can't really say, or perhaps I won't be able to express myself
3 the best way in terms of what kind of unit it was. We had our people,
4 our representatives in the local commune. The adjacent settlement of
5 Pobrdje, towards Bratunac, comprised the same local commune as Voljavica.
6 Our delegates who went there to talk to them -- and before that
7 check-points had already been erected at Pobrdje, and we couldn't go to
8 Bratunac. The people in question wore camouflage uniforms. We didn't
9 know who they belonged to. We didn't know them. We only received
10 representatives from that local commune in the course of those days.
11 They also came before while we were being disarmed. We knew those
13 Q. Let me try to be more direct in my questions. Is it correct that
14 one of those people who came and whom you remember regarding disarmament
15 and the taking away of weapons from your villages was Miladin Jokic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it also accurate that you remember him from that time as
18 someone who had worked in the police station in Bratunac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you for another clarification, please,
21 concerning your life in Srebrenica between 1993 and 1995. Tell the Court
22 who was it who went to fetch food in Zepa from Srebrenica, from your
24 A. From Srebrenica to Zepa, my husband went as well as my older son.
25 Of course they never went all together. They changed, since it was a
1 long way to travel. Both my brothers went, too, and during that last
2 winter -- actually, not the last one but the winter of 1993, or between
3 1992 and 1993, it was my older brother who went, and he had trouble along
4 the road because his feet froze. There was much snow. He was brought
5 back from Zepa since he couldn't walk back alone.
6 Q. You heard them describe the passage between Srebrenica and Zepa.
7 Was it unhindered, and did they have to go through VRS-controlled
8 territory which was outside the demilitarised zone?
9 A. I didn't travel that route. I don't know the route, but I do
10 know they had to be accompanied by someone who did. I had a son-in-law
11 who hailed from Zepa --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Brother-in-law.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He knew what route to take, and
14 they mostly travelled at night. I don't know what places they went
15 through along the route, though, because I never covered the distance on
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did I understand correctly that your sister lived in Zepa itself
19 or in a village nearby?
20 A. She lived in Zepa at the time. However, before the war she used
21 to live in Glodjani, which was 20 kilometres from Han Pijesak. However,
22 the village had been torched and she fled to Zepa.
23 Q. During your years in Srebrenica, was your husband engaged
25 A. At the beginning of the war all of us, that is to say, all of our
1 men, were engaged, if you can call it that, because they stood some kind
2 of guard along the separation lines. Whichever village we came to,
3 everyone saw us as refugees, and as such one had to be on duty, without
4 weapons or anything, and I claim that positively.
5 Given the fact that at the very beginning of the war, that is to
6 say, less than two months after we left home, my husband's brother was
7 killed. In late 1992, another brother of his was killed when looking for
8 food. And after that, no one tried to force my husband to go, because he
9 was the only person alive from the family. So he only went to search for
10 food. He went down to the Drina, to Voljavica, and in the direction of
11 Pavkovici because there was a field there and they gathered corn under --
12 from underneath the snow.
13 Q. Were his brothers registered as the shaheed and were their
14 families as the Sehid families taken care of?
15 A. The families of both of them, that is to say, their wives and
16 children left Bratunac before the war. One of the wives was a refugee in
17 Slovenia, and she's currently in the Netherlands, whereas their son was
18 killed during the attack on Srebrenica. As for the younger ones, they
19 had left Slovenia and they're also now in the Netherlands, so they were
20 not there in the war.
21 Q. What about the two men, were they killed as the shaheed?
22 A. It's difficult to answer that question, sir.
23 Q. If you can't, please say so.
24 A. I really can't answer that question, because as I said, they were
25 killed at the very beginning the war, especially the younger
1 brother-in-law was killed by an air bomb, carrying a sack of corn on his
2 back. So he wasn't in any military operation. He was literally
3 gathering corn.
4 Q. Are you familiar with the plight of the Serb civilians, Serb
5 population in the valley of the Drina, in Skelani, and in Kravica, in
6 1992 and 1993? Do you know anything about that?
7 A. I don't. Between 1992 and 1993, as I explain to the Court, I was
8 very ill and was bed-ridden at home. My husband was with me, and he
9 didn't go to Kravica. And my children, of course, were there. We were
10 simply trying to stay alive at that time.
11 Q. I was cautioned that the term "shaheed" made its way into the
12 transcript. Since we come from the same part of the world, can you
13 confirm that in B/C/S it could be interpreted as "soldier," or is there
14 another term to explain the word "shaheed"?
15 A. Perhaps I can clarify. You could answer that one way or another.
16 In my mind, that is incorrect. My brother-in-law --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father-in-law, who was 70 at the
19 time, according to the documentation in this unfortunate
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina war of ours, is treated as the shaheed. If a
21 70-year-old person was a soldier, then I have to ask myself who can be a
22 soldier or a shaheed.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. Tell us this, please: Were you ever informed by your
25 late husband what unit he belonged to and where he stood the guard you
2 A. The initial guard duty occurred in the villages of -- in the
3 village of Brezovica, before we even reached Srebrenica. Later when we
4 moved to Potocari, then they stood guard at Likari and Caus. If you come
5 from that area, you know what I am referring to.
6 Q. Did he ever tell you what unit it was and who was his commander?
7 A. I know that in Srebrenica it was said -- and that even after
8 Srebrenica fell, people referred to it as the 20th Division. They called
9 it that, and that's all I know about those soldiers.
10 Q. Between 1993 and 1995, did you know that many people, due to the
11 situation in Srebrenica and around Srebrenica, wanted to leave the area
12 and go to Tuzla or Sarajevo, or perhaps some other destinations
13 controlled by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. Yes. As far as I knew, it took place that spring of 1995. So as
15 late as 1995. That's when I heard some people say that they wanted to
16 leave Srebrenica and that something terrible will happen and that one had
17 to leave Srebrenica in any case. I know that people wanted to leave, and
18 I know of some groups that took to the forest. They must have used some
19 routes in order to reach Tuzla. Some of them got through, although I
20 don't know by what route. Others were perhaps killed and, for the most
21 part, all traces lost of those people.
22 Q. What about your family and you during the period between 1993 and
23 1995? Were you looking for a way to leave the area of Srebrenica?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Apologies. Do you know that there were inhabitants in the
1 enclave who went in the direction of Macedonia?
2 A. I only heard about that, but I don't know anything. I heard some
3 stories of some people going to Zepa and then trying to cross over from
4 there into Serbia or further afield. I don't know such routes, and they
5 were only stories. I'd rather not say they were correct or incorrect.
6 It's only something I heard from other people. There were always a lot
7 of people around, and one could always hear stories. However, it is not
8 reliable information that I could confirm as true.
9 Q. Thank you. I will conclude before the break with just one more
10 question. In the period between 1993 and 1995, was the black market in
11 operation, and were food articles and cigarettes as well as fuel being
12 smuggled in Srebrenica?
13 A. As I said already, I don't know if it was because we were too
14 honest or too ignorant, my family and I didn't know about that. We
15 didn't have money to buy things with, and we had no other sources of
16 supply. I knew that people went to Zepa and brought coffee and salt. So
17 one could buy that. None of us smoked, so we didn't even think about
18 cigarettes. At the market in Srebrenica, which barely functioned, one
19 could buy things. For example, a kilogramme of salt cost 70 German
20 marks, and I could only dream of that. I didn't have any kind of money
21 at the time. So for three years we went on barefoot, thirsty, and
23 Q. You hail from the area of Potocari; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Your brothers' and your family home is in Potocari?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Throughout the war, from 1993 to 1995, when the enclave -- once
3 the enclave was established, your brothers lived in the area of Potocari?
4 A. No. Only in 1992. Until late 1992, we lived together in
5 Potocari. Then I went to Srebrenica as I said. And they, too, had to
6 leave, perhaps a month after me, before General Morillon entered
7 Srebrenica. There was a guided missile of sorts, although I'm not
8 familiar with weapons, but I know that their house was demolished and
9 they had to go to Srebrenica where they lived in an apartment.
10 Q. Who did that apartment belong to that they lived in before the
12 A. I don't know.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Kindly slow down and
15 JUDGE ORIE: You are invited to slow down and to make pauses
16 between question and answer.
17 The witness has answered your last question that she doesn't know
18 to whom the apartment belonged.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, I'm thinking about --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will conclude with this
21 question before the break, which I will repeat.
22 Q. Do you know who the apartment where you lived belonged to before
23 the war?
24 A. Yes. It was a house just behind the cultural hall owned by the
25 municipality. A man used to live there who worked in Banja Guber in
1 Srebrenica. He was a Muslim in that house where I lived in.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Please turn the microphone on.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Switch on your microphone --
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe this is a good time
5 for our break, and after it I will move on to a different topic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you give us an indication as to how much time
7 you'd need?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. According to
9 our plan, it will be shorter than envisaged, and we will conclude in the
10 one hour that we have left.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd say in the next session, within one hour
12 you would conclude, which also means that there's some time left,
13 Ms. Harbour, although limited time, for questions in re-examination.
14 We'll take a break, but could first the witness be escorted out
15 of the courtroom. We'll take a break of 20 minutes.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes
18 to 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you may continue.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Madam, I would like now to move on to the events of the 11th,
1 12th, and 13th of July, 1995. I'm going to ask you if it is true that
2 already on the 10th of July, you were outside the UN compound in
3 Srebrenica because you wanted to know how and which way you would go.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were told to go back home, and the night between the 10th and
6 11th, you spent in the flat where you were living at the time; is that
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. On the 11th of July, you went again in front of the UNPROFOR base
10 in Srebrenica, and that is when you set off towards Potocari.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who specifically told you to go to Potocari? Whose idea was it?
13 A. Well, at first this whole crowd of people - I wasn't alone
14 there - spent maybe one or two hours, I don't know, I didn't have a
15 watch, within the UNPROFOR compound in Srebrenica or what used to be the
16 old workshop as it was known. We were not able to communicate with them
17 due to the language barrier. Some people were climbing on the trucks,
18 because women with children believed that they would be evacuated. It
19 was total commotion. It was too hot. The area was packed with people.
20 At one point we heard the sound of aircraft, and that is when two Dutch
21 soldiers, I don't know who they were, showed us with their hands towards
22 Potocari, because we couldn't communicate verbally, and they also pointed
23 at the aircraft trying to reassure us not to be afraid, because as far as
24 we were able to understand, bombing was -- was going to happen, or
25 air-strike. That's how I understood them.
1 Anyway, they showed us into the direction of Potocari with their
2 arms, which we understood that we should go towards Potocari. Nobody
3 told us specifically that.
4 Q. During the bombing on the 11th -- or, rather, the flights of
5 aircraft, were you able to see -- or you were not able to see the
6 Serbian Army?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer,
8 because there was no pause.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer. The question
10 was whether you were able when the -- the aircraft were flying over,
11 whether you were able to see or not able to see the Serbian Army at that
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Q. My next question was: At that point on the 11th of July, was
16 your late husband and your sons already on the way in a different
17 direction, as you put it, towards the woods?
18 A. Most probably, yes. When we headed towards the UNPROFOR base,
19 they took the road towards Susnjari and Kutlici and the other villages.
20 I don't know what happened after I left.
21 Q. Can you tell us, do you have any information at all who told them
22 to head for Susnjari?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you have any information at all at that period that
25 able-bodied men should head towards Jaglic and Susnjari?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you have any direct or indirect knowledge of the fact that
3 both the civilian and military authorities of Srebrenica had requested a
4 couple of days before the 11th to enable the civilian population of
5 Srebrenica to leave, and that happened during negotiations?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. How long did it take to cover that way between the
8 UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica to the industrial complex in Potocari?
9 A. Well, time-wise I cannot give you an exact answer. I might be
10 mistaken, but the distance is about 4 kilometres. So if you take an
11 average man, it will be possible to walk, but the situation was that
12 there was a huge crowd of women with children, elderly people, and I said
13 that there were even wounded people among them, myself included. We
14 walked along this asphalt road, but I don't know how long it took us to
15 reach Potocari.
16 Q. Can you tell us, to the best of your estimate, what time in the
17 afternoon it was on the 11th of July, to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. Well, we may have arrived in Potocari at around 4.00 in the
19 afternoon or 4.30 perhaps.
20 Q. Do you remember that at one intersection before Potocari, if
21 viewed from the direction of Srebrenica, members of the BH Army were
22 directing able-bodied men to take this side road to the left to Jaglic
23 and Susnjari?
24 A. No. I didn't see any of that while I was on the road.
25 Q. In your estimate, did you see General Mladic after you spent one
1 or two nights in Potocari? Please try to remember.
2 A. That first night between the 10th and 11th of July, and in the
3 morning on the 12th of July, as I described, the Serbian soldiers entered
4 Potocari. That means on the 12th of July. After that, given that I had
5 been wounded, I wasn't able to move around a lot. I don't know what time
6 it was. Maybe it was 11.00 or 12.00. Anyway, at around noon, I'm not
7 sure, I already said that my sister came, and she told me that the
8 Serbian soldiers had come from the direction of Bratunac and that
9 Ratko Mladic was with them. Because I was surrounded by thousands of
10 people, I wasn't able to see that section that she was describing, but as
11 I said, it was from the direction of Bratunac. I wasn't in the street at
12 all at the time. I was on the plateau within the compound of the Zinc
13 factory with other people. People were saying and shouting, but I
14 personally wasn't close enough to see him.
15 Q. In your view, can you be sure that you spent one or two nights in
16 Potocari before you saw General Mladic in Potocari?
17 A. Sir, the second night in Potocari was chaotic. I personally
18 believe, and I believe that even if you or anyone else was there --
19 wouldn't be able to remember even what your name was in view of what was
20 happening during that night and that morning.
21 Q. I understand that. That is why I'm asking you. Let me try to go
23 Do you remember that at one point, and I would say that that was
24 on the 20th of July, 1995, which means shortly after you arrived in
25 Zivinice, you gave a statement to the state commission for the collection
1 of facts about these events?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion you mentioned the date or
4 the time when you saw General Mladic in Potocari?
5 A. One of those days when he used to say that the women and children
6 and other men would be safe, that everybody would be evacuated wherever
7 they wanted to go, if they wanted to go, and that is what General Mladic
8 said personally in Potocari.
9 Q. Thank you. Let me just stop you for a while with this question:
10 When General Mladic was saying these things, did you personally have an
11 opportunity to see and hear?
12 A. I was [Realtime transcript read in error "wasn't"] able to hear
13 him, but I wasn't able to see him because I was not near enough.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I was able to hear
15 him, but I wasn't able to see him.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second. There's a correction. Yes. Please
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. We are waiting for the record to be completed.
20 Do you recall that at any point you heard or saw this statement
21 of General Mladic being filmed?
22 A. I wasn't able to see that.
23 Q. Were you able to hear from anyone that his statement was recorded
24 on camera?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, at the risk of creating further
2 confusion, still the correction of the interpreter leads to a confusing
4 The last thing I heard is that the witness told us that she was
5 able to hear Mr. Mladic, but she was not able to see him.
6 Witness, that is what you said, I take it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,
10 Your Honours.
11 Q. Do you recall that in the course of the two days that you spent
12 in Potocari, bread and water in limited quantities were distributed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was the situation the same on both days, the first and the second
15 day that you spent in Potocari?
16 A. On the second day, the 13th of July.
17 Q. In your opinion, can you give us an estimate of the time when you
18 managed to board the vehicle that you mentioned and to head for Tisca and
20 A. I'm not sure what time it was, but I think it was at around noon
21 or maybe one hour in the afternoon, but it was a sunny day. It was very
22 hot, and judging by the position of the sun, I think it may have been at
23 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon when we boarded the buses.
24 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what members of the UNPROFOR
25 were doing during this whole process?
1 A. You mean while we were boarding the buses?
2 Q. Both before and during the process of your boarding the vehicles.
3 A. Well, during the entire time that we spent in Potocari, I was on
4 the road in front of the factory called the 11th of March where I used to
5 work. There was an APC parked there when we arrived in Potocari, but
6 actually after we already arrived, the UNPROFOR soldiers returned us from
7 the barricade. It was not a barricade. It was a tape that was
8 stretched, and they made a motion with their hands that we should go back
9 because there was no room left for any more refugees. So my
10 father-in-law and my child and I decided to go back to one of those
12 Then I saw a soldier tied to an APC, and there was a soldier
13 lying on the APC, but I didn't know what was happening, in fact, but in
14 the days that followed, I cannot tell you exactly at what time, I was
15 able to see the soldier taking off his uniform and giving it to a Serb
16 soldier. I don't know if he was forced to do that or what.
17 Now, having seen these images, I realised that these people can
18 do little for our sake.
19 Q. Let me interrupt you there. Did you at any point in time receive
20 any food, water, or medication from UNPROFOR members?
21 A. No, not in the part where I was. I didn't see that. Perhaps in
22 the perimeter covered by UNPROFOR something like that may have happened,
23 but not on the street or in the factory building where we were.
24 Q. Do you recall whether at any point in time between the place
25 where you were and the place where you entered the vehicle you had to go
1 between UNPROFOR vehicles which were funneling you towards your vehicle
2 along the road?
3 A. No. There were masses of people moving at the same time as I was
4 trying to move down the street from the Zinc factory to the transport to
5 Srebrenica on the right-hand side. There was a lot of crowd, and you
6 couldn't see anything from the people. They were all trying at once to
7 go to the tape and reach the trucks and buses where they were told they
8 would be transported. People were in panic and afraid, and they all
9 wanted to leave at that same moment to go through this -- this so-called
10 barricade as soon as possible.
11 Q. Given the fact that it was summertime and given the number of
12 people, it was simply impossible for them to remain in the area. Would
13 that be correct? There was a threat of epidemic and people going hungry
14 or thirsty.
15 A. Well, when the temperature rises up to 40 degrees, when you have
16 to spend three days in a row out in the open, because I managed to find a
17 spot on the bus after three days, and I can only discuss my feelings, but
18 never at any point in time did I, my son, or father-in-law think of
19 anything else. We didn't take any water, food, or medication that the
20 Serb soldiers may have distributed. We only took sips of water from time
21 to time at a gas station nearby, and that's how we survived.
22 Q. During your testimony in a previous case, you mentioned two
23 people whom you had known from before, Gavric and a policeman that you
24 referred to regarding 1992. Do you recall that part of the testimony?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Please tell the Court where you saw Gavric, and what was he
3 A. I saw Milisav Gavric at the gate of the 11th of March factory and
4 the Zinc factory. So there was a single fence and a single gate through
5 which one could go to both factories. He was there in the afternoon of
6 the 12th of July. He was standing with a group of people, including my
7 husband's uncle. There were also three brothers from Potocari whom I
8 knew and a man from Tegari who drove a taxi in Bratunac in peacetime.
9 There was a conversation of theirs, although I didn't stay since I was on
10 my way to get water. I saw them, but I couldn't hear what they were
12 Q. In the process of population evacuation, as people were getting
13 aboard buses and men were being separated, were there any military or
14 policemen there? Did you ever find anything of the sort?
15 A. No. I don't think there were any police, in my view. The person
16 I mentioned a moment ago, Jokic, I saw him on the 13th of July en route
17 to the buses. He wasn't there, and he wasn't along the road before the
18 barricade in Srebrenica. He was just standing by the road, kept to
19 himself. He didn't talk to anyone. He wore a light blue shirt and grey
20 pants. I think it was a police uniform.
21 As for the other people who were there as we were getting onto
22 the buses and trucks, when the men were being separated at the barricade,
23 they were all in combat fatigues, in military uniform. Now, who those
24 people were, who they belonged to, whether they were the Serb army from
25 Republika Srpska or something else is something we couldn't tell. In any
1 case, they were young, and I've already stated that such young people
2 could have been soldiers. Judging by their accent and conversations, one
3 could conclude they were from Serbia, because they only spoke the Ekavian
4 dialect that no one in Bosnia speaks. It was easy to notice that.
5 As I was getting some water, I heard a couple of them even say
6 that they were from Valjevo. And they also had camouflage uniforms. I
7 don't know whether they said the truth, though, but that's what I could
9 Q. But they, too, spoke to the Ekavian dialect?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell me this, please: During the two days in Potocari, did you
12 at any point in time receive information that there was a delegation of
13 the refugee population which participated in discussions with the
14 political, military, and police leadership concerning the evacuation of
15 those people? Did you ever obtain such information?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Please tell us whether the following names mean anything to you:
18 Camila Purkovic, Nesib Mandzic, and Ibro Nuhanovic. And did you know
19 those people from earlier, from before?
20 A. Yes, I knew the first person. She worked in Srebrenica when I
21 worked there, in peacetime. I knew Nesib Mandzic from the war. I think
22 he was the principal of the school during the truce period. As for
23 Nuhanovic, he was an UNPROFOR interpreter, as far as I knew.
24 Q. Were you told that an agreement was reached with the Serb
25 authorities and UNPROFOR to have the people evacuated from Potocari?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you told at any point in time that during that evacuation
3 UNPROFOR members were to take place as well?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at some footage taken on the
6 13th of July.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
8 look at P1147. It is V000-9267. I would kindly ask Janet to show us the
9 other clip beginning at 5:46 to 6:30. 5:46, and then 6:30.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, and thank you, Janet.
12 Q. As you could observe, madam, it was on the 13th of July, slightly
13 after the time you provided as the moment of your departure from
14 Potocari, the Serb policeman or soldier, which happens to be irrelevant
15 for this case, is addressing an UNPROFOR soldier and tells the
16 interpreter the following:
17 "Miki, tell them to go and collect them from up there. Miki,
18 they should tour the area to see if anyone else wants to go. That's
19 their job."
20 Having heard this and seen the footage, let me ask you this: Did
21 you at any point in time have information that UNPROFOR members were
22 supposed to take part in organising the evacuation of the people from
24 A. No.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let's look at another footage from the
1 same recording. It is P1147, video V000-9267, starting with 3 minutes
2 and ending at 4 minutes, 26 seconds.
3 Let's have a look at it, madam, and then I'll have a few
4 questions for you.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I suppose you were able to see this footage on several occasions;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. According to what we have received from the Prosecution, it is
11 supposed to be the 13th of July, early in the afternoon.
12 Given the place of your birth, do you recognise the part of
13 Potocari where this was shot?
14 A. Sir, I know Potocari as the back of my hand. As for all this
15 footage, they cover the distance between the 11th of March and the
16 UNPROFOR base and the Zinc and battery factory. We were all put on the
17 vehicles with which we were evacuated.
18 Q. I wanted to ask you to clarify the following: In this -- on this
19 footage, in this column, you could see men, women, the elderly, and
20 younger men and women as well with their personal possessions, packages.
21 Where was this part recorded?
22 A. I know that beyond the UNPROFOR barricade -- that's what I can
23 say. Well, when we reach the barricade, when we were seated, that group
24 of people, that crowd that accompanied us was seated across the road. On
25 the left-hand side there was the so-called white house, and before that
1 house was the barricade. On the right-hand side was the Feros factory
2 and the old slaughterhouse. When we went beyond the barricade we turned
3 right to get on the buses, and all of the men, all of the men, every
4 single one, my brother-in-law, my father-in-law, et cetera, were told to
5 go to the left and told that they would be put on some other buses. They
6 were escorted across the canal to the house. They threw their back-packs
7 next to the road. I don't know what they were told, but I could see
8 that. And the people were then taken to the house. Where they were
9 taken later is something I don't know. By that time we had already got
10 on the buses, and the people stayed in the yard of the house and behind
12 Q. Did you at any point in time observe whether the same kind of
13 procedure was followed on your first day in Potocari, that is to say, the
14 12th of July?
15 A. No.
16 Q. If you saw it, tell us whether these people, as you could see on
17 the footage, could bring along their possessions on the trucks and into
18 the buses.
19 A. I don't know. According to what others told me, because I didn't
20 see it, but according to the stories of others later on, those who were
21 there on the 13th in the morning, and this may well be the time of the
22 footage, although I'm not sure, we were told that there were some older
23 men who managed to get through. That is to say, they were not separated,
24 and that they could bring along their possessions. When my group came
25 along, we were told literally to throw it away, that we wouldn't need it,
1 that beds awaited us, and that we were to go to our Alija and so on.
2 Q. Did you ever see any of the men who managed to pass the
3 barricade, as you said, discard their passport or any other
4 identification document?
5 A. No. All I saw that they were throwing away their rucksacks or
6 bags or whatever they had but nothing else.
7 Q. Thank you. You already spoke about the next thing that I'm going
8 to ask you about and testified more extensively in the previous cases.
9 Do you remember when the convoy of vehicles with the refugees was passing
10 through Bratunac that the local population was hurling threats at them,
11 swearing at them, that one could feel hatred among the people in the
12 street aimed at you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did the same situation repeat itself while you were passing
15 through Milici?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Can you remember if that happened while you were passing through
19 A. When I was passing through Vlasenica, the bus stopped at one
20 point. We didn't know what was going on. The bus had a flat tire, and
21 while we were parked there nobody approached us except for three men. I
22 don't know who and what they were. One of them entered through the door
23 and gave three apples which were not ripe yet to a child sitting next by,
24 but they did nothing else. Once the tire was repaired, we continued our
1 Q. Were there any soldiers in the vehicles or outside the vehicles?
2 And I'm referring to members of the UNPROFOR escorting the convoy.
3 A. Well, that was a long convoy, and there was no one in front of
4 our bus, but I don't know whether there were soldiers anywhere else,
5 because as I said, that was a long column. There was no escort in front
6 or behind our bus. I told you that in three places we had to stop. The
7 buses were boarded by Serb soldiers who were asking us to give them
8 foreign exchange currency, otherwise they would kill us. Some of the
9 women did give their money, and they stopped us again at Kravica and then
10 again. And when the third time they tried to stop us, the driver said,
11 "People, we are being stopped for a third time. The people have nothing
12 more to give you."
13 Q. At what time were you stopped at Kravica, to the best of your
15 A. Well, I don't know. Kravica is not far away. I don't know how
16 long it took when we started from Potocari and reached Kravica.
17 Q. But you would agree that it was on the afternoon of the
18 13th of July?
19 A. Yes, I would.
20 Q. Can you tell me, having in mind everything that you experienced
21 during your journey, were you able to conclude that the people in
22 Bratunac were extremely vengeful?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you remember when you arrived
25 beyond Tisca and when you got off the vehicles and started walking
1 towards Kladanj that you saw an UNPROFOR vehicle there?
2 A. I didn't see any vehicle there. When we got off, I saw soldiers
3 on both sides of the road who were directing us and telling us not to
4 deviate from the road. Those people who were exhausted and old and frail
5 had to be carried, but we were all exhausted for that matter.
6 Q. We are nearing the end, but before that, I'd like to call up 1D84
7 in e-court. It's an excerpt from the book entitled "Chaos by Design,"
8 written by Ibran Mustafic. We're going to look at one passage from the
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And we need the next page in the
11 document, the last paragraph in both languages.
12 Q. And while we are waiting let me ask you this: Do you know who
13 Ibran Mustafic is?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we have a good habit in this court
16 that we first explore whether the witness has any knowledge of something
17 the party would then like to show to that witness. So I don't know what
18 is in the book, or whatever, but first ask the witness about what you
19 want to show her later and to ask her whether she's familiar with any of
20 it, because there's no need to show it if she don't know anything about
21 it. So would you please proceed in accordance with this guidance.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will comply, Your Honours, and
23 I think I started with asking the witness who Ibran Mustafic is.
24 Q. But let me ask you this: Is it true that he was a delegate in
25 the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war and that he
1 represented the Party of Democratic Action? Are you familiar with that
3 A. I heard that he had been a deputy in the Assembly, but I don't
4 know. I didn't know anything about the authorities, but I heard that he
5 was the deputy.
6 Q. Are you aware that in those days he himself was in Potocari too?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see him in Potocari?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Now, I'm going to read this very characteristic passage, and I'm
11 going to ask you --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you first should inquire with the
13 witness whether the witness has any knowledge on the subject you want to
14 deal with, and only if she says she knows something about it, then it's
15 worthwhile to put a text to the witness. Perhaps it might not even be
16 needed if the witness knows a lot and can tell you a lot about it.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
18 guideline, and I'm going to abide by it.
19 Q. Madam, let me ask you this: Do you know that in the course of
20 the separation of able-bodied men in Potocari, at any location or at any
21 check-point or in the course of any segment of the process Camila,
22 Nesib Mandzic, and Nuhanovic were present?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever see any of these three individuals on the
25 13th of July in the vicinity of the place where the able-bodied men were
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, in
4 light of this, I don't think it is necessary to put this document to the
5 witness. It is still in e-court as 1D.
6 Q. And I'm going to conclude my cross-examination by asking you
7 this, madam: After all these tragic events, did you go back to live in
8 the place where you lived before the war?
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Pursuant to a decision issued by the Department for Refugees and
11 Displaced Persons, was your property restituted in your former place of
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you manage to repair your property, at least in part?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We have to slow down. Did you receive any subsidies in that
17 respect that helped you to repair your property?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. You and your family are now living outside Srebrenica; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have a registered residence in Bratunac, and in the last
23 elections, did you have an opportunity to be on the electoral roll for
25 A. No.
1 Q. Where did you exercise your voting rights?
2 A. In Sarajevo -- or, rather, Vogosca.
3 Q. Did the population of your village return to their properties
4 where they used to live before the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. I have no
7 further questions for you. Once again, I'm very sorry if I put any
8 question to you that would invoke the memories that you have of these
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Harbour, do you have any -- is there any need to
11 re-examine the witness?
12 MS. HARBOUR: No, Your Honour.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench also has no questions for you,
15 Madam Malagic, I would like to thank you very much for coming the long
16 way to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put
17 to you by the parties. The Chamber is aware that it is not easy to be
18 taken back to the events which happened in July 1995. The Chamber is
19 fully aware of that. Therefore, thanks again, and we wish you a safe
20 return home.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would take this opportunity to
22 thank you, this Trial Chamber, and the Hague Tribunal in general, and
23 this country that made it possible for us to give at least a partial
24 account of what really happened to us, in order to describe a situation
25 that my family and thousands of other people found themselves, people who
1 lost their property, their families, their children, people who were left
2 alone, deprived of any will to continue with their lives.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were called in order to assist the Chamber
4 in finding the truth. Thank you again very much. You may follow the
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need to take a break because there are
8 no -- any further witnesses, so therefore before we adjourn, I'd like to
9 briefly put two matters on the record.
10 First, the Defence requested, on the 13th of May, 18 days to
11 respond to the Prosecution's 26th 92 bis motion which would extend the
12 deadline for a response to tomorrow, the 17th of May. The request is
13 hereby granted.
14 Second, I'd like to put on the record -- rather, the Chamber
15 notes that as of the 1st of June, 2013, the Chamber will be sitting five
16 days per week pending a decision, the decision on the Defence motion for
17 an adjustment of the trial sitting schedule.
18 These were the two matters I wanted to put on the record.
19 Mr. Groome.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, with respect to the Chamber's last
21 comment about the sitting five days, given the scheduling implications,
22 the Prosecution certainly would appreciate any notice as soon as possible
23 if that is going to change.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is at this moment considering the
25 Defence motion for adjustment of the trial sitting schedule and as soon
1 as we have decided or whether that will be a final decision or any
2 interlocutory decision, of course you'll know it immediately.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Your Honour, during the testimony of Witness Zlatan Celanovic at
5 transcript page 11109, the Chamber inquired about what appeared to be a
6 transcription error in the witness's testimony in the Popovic case, which
7 was tendered in this case as P1451. The Chamber pointed out a sentence
8 which occurs in the original text at transcript page 6635, and at e-court
9 page 11, line 23, in the transcript which reads:
10 "I did thought mention the 28th Division, and I didn't know where
11 there was a 28th Division."
12 The Prosecution has checked the corresponding B/C/S audiotape of
13 the transcript, and informs the Chamber that the English translation in
14 our view would correctly read:
15 "I did not mention the 28th Division, and I didn't know there was
16 a 28th Division." I don't know whether the Chamber and the Defence are
17 willing to rely on the representation of the Prosecution and we leave the
18 matter there, or whether the Chamber wants to direct that the matter be
19 checked by somebody else. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If the Defence would agree that this is how we
21 should understand the transcript of the testimony and that there's an
22 error and that the parties agree on what the error is and how it should
23 correctly be read, then the Chamber would like to hear from the parties
24 and may finally not ask for any further steps as long as the parties
25 agree on the matter. At least the logic is back in this sentence.
1 Whether it's accurate or not, that's a second matter, but it's, again,
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that that
4 is the case, but since my colleague Lukic led this witness, and I
5 wouldn't like to become involved in this issue, I'd prefer to have an
6 agreement with the Prosecution that we verify this, and we shall inform
7 you shortly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the Chamber hear from the parties within
9 seven days from now.
10 Then we adjourn for the day. We will not sit tomorrow, and
11 therefore we will resume on Tuesday, the 21st of May, at 9.30 in the
12 morning, and to be quite honest, I do not know whether it will be in
13 Courtroom I or Courtroom III. It will still be in Courtroom III. We
14 stand adjourned.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day
17 of May, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.