Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11766

 1                           Thursday, 30 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Before we start, I have a question for the Defence.  I don't know

11     whether you're going to deal with it, Mr. Stojanovic.  Could you give us

12     an indication, if we continue tomorrow with Witness RM322, how much time

13     would you need or could you tell us?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we requested

15     six hours.  I think we are on the third or fourth hour, and I hope that I

16     will be able to complete in two or two and a half hours tomorrow.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Two, two and a half hours, that would leave

18     sufficient time for a re-examination if needed.  That is understood.

19     Thank you.

20             Mr. Groome?

21             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honour.  The next witness the

22     Prosecution will call is Momir Nikolic.  And may I take this opportunity

23     to introduce Julian Nicholls to the Chamber.  It's his first time

24     appearing on this case.  And there are no protective measures for this

25     witness, Your Honour.

Page 11767

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Welcome, Mr. Nicholls.  Then I do -- yes,

 2     Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Sorry to interrupt.

 4     I just wanted to say also that Virginia Lindsay, counsel for

 5     Momir Nikolic, is with us today.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome, Ms. Lindsay.  I take it that your task will

 7     be to take care that Rule 90(E) is properly applied.  That is that if

 8     there is any risk for self-incrimination, that you'll deal with those

 9     matters and not to coach in any way the witness when testifying.

10     That's -- I see that you're nodding yes so apparently we agree on the

11     matter.

12             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.  Before you give

15     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text

16     of which is now handed out to you by the usher.  May I invite to you make

17     that solemn declaration.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

19     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

20     nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated, Mr. Nikolic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, before the examination will start, I'd

Page 11768

 1     like to inform you about Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and

 2     Evidence.  And I'll read it to you, and if you have any questions

 3     remaining, don't hesitate to ask.

 4             Rule 90(E) reads, a witness may object to making any statement

 5     which might tend to incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however,

 6     compel the witness to answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this

 7     way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the

 8     witness for any offence other than false testimony.  It means that you

 9     can object to answer a question if a truthful answer might incriminate

10     yourself, especially in order not to expose yourself to further

11     prosecutions but the Chamber may insist on you answering that question.

12             Mr. Nicholls, if you're ready you may proceed.

13             You'll first be examined by Mr. Nicholls, you'll find

14     Mr. Nicholls to your right.  Mr. Nicholls is counsel for the Prosecution.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   What I want to do first, very briefly, is go through a little bit

20     of your background for the Trial Chamber.  You were born in Bratunac in

21     1955; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And could you briefly tell us, just briefly, about your

24     educational background and what your occupation was before the war

25     started in 1992?

Page 11769

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, before we invite the witness to answer

 2     that question, I assumed that this is Mr. Nikolic but I think that's the

 3     first question, apart from where and when he was born, who he is.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 5        Q.   Could you please state your full name, sir?

 6        A.   I am Momir Nikolic.  I was born on 20 February in 1955, in --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly asks that Mr. Nikolic

 8     repeat the name.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to talk about my

10     professional background?  That was your first question.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:

12        Q.   I think the interpreters just missed that you were born in

13     Bratunac; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.  I was born in Bratunac, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And then, yes, if you could please just briefly tell

16     us your educational background and your occupation before the war started

17     in 1992.

18        A.   I completed my elementary and high school in Bratunac where I was

19     born.  After completing high school, I went to serve my military term of

20     duty.  When I -- at the time, usually you would serve the military term

21     of duty after completing high school.  I served in Postojna in Slovenia.

22     After 15 months I returned to Bratunac, and then after that, I enrolled

23     at the Faculty of Political Sciences, University of Sarajevo, which

24     I completed in the Department of Defence and Protection.  After four

25     years I returned to Bratunac and my first job was in the high school

Page 11770

 1     centre Djuro Pucar Stari where I worked as a professor of defence and

 2     protection.  The next five years I worked at the high school centre, and

 3     then sometime in 1986, I transferred to the Territorial Defence staff,

 4     where I worked until the war broke out, i.e. until 1992, when I was

 5     officially mobilised into the military unit where I proceeded to serve as

 6     an officer.

 7             I left the army with the rank of sergeant, and I was a platoon

 8     commander.  After completing my university and transferring to the

 9     territorial staff HQ, I was promoted to officer where I was the assistant

10     commander of the TO HQ for intelligence.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, without going into the specific reasons, is it

12     right that from roughly the end of May to November 1992, you were in

13     Belgrade?

14        A.   Yes.  In late 1992 -- actually in May 1992, I was in Belgrade,

15     and then I returned to Bratunac in November, I believe.

16        Q.   And in November 1992, when you returned, is it right that you

17     became assistant commander for intelligence and security in the Bratunac

18     Brigade?

19        A.   Yes.  That's correct.  After a certain period of time, pursuant

20     to the proposal by my brigade commander, I was appointed to that post.

21        Q.   And that was your post in July 1995, as well; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.  From the time I was appointed until demobilisation, I was

23     at the position of the chief of the organ for intelligence and security

24     in the 1st Light Infantry Bratunac Brigade.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And what was your rank in July 1995?

Page 11771

 1        A.   In July 1995, I held the rank of captain.

 2        Q.   And currently, you are serving a prison sentence of 20 years; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   Moving on now to May 2003, it's correct that you pled guilty in

 6     this court to count 5 of your indictment, crimes against humanity; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.  In 1993 [as interpreted] I pleaded guilty to count 5 of the

 9     indictment.

10        Q.   Now, just very briefly, during your discussions with the Office

11     of the Prosecutor, at the time of your plea, did you at one point falsely

12     claim personal involvement in some offences, in some crimes, which you

13     were not involved in?  Can you briefly explain that?

14        A.   Yes.  Attached to my document or documents that I signed with the

15     Prosecution, there is a statement.  The contents of that statement are

16     correct.  Because of the Trial Chamber, I would just like to clarify

17     briefly what this is about.

18             The first thing that is in the statement is the identification of

19     a photograph, my own photograph, and I did not have any intention,

20     absolutely no intention, of placing myself where that soldier was or

21     anything like that.  So it was truly a person who absolutely looks like

22     me, was in uniform in that place.  At that time, at the very beginning,

23     when we began the interviews my attorneys showed me that photograph and

24     I said yes, the picture does resemble me, but the circumstances were not

25     clear to me as to where this was exactly.  When I found out that this was

Page 11772

 1     in the region of Sandici, I said that I never was there outside of my

 2     vehicle.  I was there in the critical period but I was never there

 3     outside of my vehicle.  And then we -- simply when we talked or when

 4     I talked with the Prosecution I simply did not want to rule out the

 5     possibility that I was there.  I did not simply want to, as I say, a

 6     priori, say I was not there.  Simply I said, yes, it's possible that it's

 7     me in that picture, and it was clear to me then that it was not me when

 8     my lawyers investigated the matter, went out to the area, and found the

 9     person who really is in that photograph and that is Mile Savic, aka Cuko,

10     from the Special MUP Brigade.  And then we presented that documentation,

11     myself and my lawyer, to the Prosecution, we said that is that person and

12     it is not really me.  But in view of the fact that I said that I was

13     there, I accepted and agreed to sign the statement and I accepted that at

14     the time when we talked I really did say what I did say.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, would you please slow down so that the

16     interpreters have time to translate all your words?  Otherwise we will

17     miss part of your testimony.  Please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Let me show you a document.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 19004, please?

21        Q.   Now, if you take a look at that document, Mr. Nikolic, is that

22     declaration the document that you signed that you were just discussing?

23        A.   Yes.  That's the statement that I signed as part of all the

24     documentation that I signed with the Prosecution.

25             May I continue with the following thing that I would like to

Page 11773

 1     explain that I would wish to explain?

 2        Q.   Yes, just briefly, please.

 3        A.   Very briefly.  Very briefly.  Same thing.  When the negotiations

 4     with the Prosecution were in their final stages, the Prosecution --

 5     actually I and the Prosecution were going through various documents,

 6     countless times, different events, and of course the Prosecution insisted

 7     on the truth.  I come from an organ which precisely knows how

 8     investigations are conducted.  I'm familiar with the problems.  And that

 9     is why I understand the attempts of the Prosecution to get to the truth

10     that they were interested in.  At one point in time, actually several

11     times, we talked about Sandici and about Kravica and the events there.

12             Each time I said that I had nothing to do with the crime in

13     Kravica, and at one point we got to that topic again and I was upset,

14     I was angry, and because I didn't know what else to say, anything else,

15     revolted, I said yes, I was there.  And then at one point I understood

16     what I did.  We interrupted the interviews, there was a day of break, and

17     I told my lawyers that I would like to apologise to the Prosecution and

18     tell them that that was a mistake.  And then after a day we met again,

19     I gave my apologies, and after that we continued to talk and everything

20     that I said I did say.  I said everything that I knew, so I believe that

21     that is the truth as I saw it.

22             So on that matter, therefore, the Prosecution said that I still

23     would need to sign so that what I said would be still on the record,

24     documented.  I said that was all right, I have no problem with that, that

25     I made the mistake, and that I need to accept responsibility for that,

Page 11774

 1     and I signed that.  And that is the entire truth, as far as this matter

 2     is concerned.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19004 receives number P1503,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  If I could have 65 ter 19002, please.

10        Q.   And, Mr. Nikolic, do you need help with your headphones?  I'm not

11     sure if they are comfortable for you the way they are.

12        A.   It's all right, it's all right, it's all right.  Here we are.

13        Q.   Now, what's coming up is your plea agreement that you made, the

14     written plea agreement, with the Office of the Prosecutor.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I could just go to the last page in both

16     languages, please.

17        Q.   And simply do you see your signature on the document, sir?  I'll

18     wait for the Serbian version to come up.

19        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

20        Q.   And is this the plea agreement that you signed?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have page 4 of the English, page 5 of the

23     Serbian, please?

24        Q.   Now, as part of your plea agreement, did you agree to testify

25     truthfully in trials when called upon to do so by the Office of the

Page 11775

 1     Prosecutor?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if you focus on --

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  If we could show Mr. Nikolic paragraph 11, we need

 5     to go to the top of the page, please.

 6        Q.   It states:

 7             "It is understood and agreed by Momir Nikolic and the Prosecution

 8     that all information and testimony provided by Mr. Nikolic must be

 9     absolutely truthful.  This means that Momir Nikolic must neither minimise

10     his own actions nor fabricate someone else's involvement."

11             And my question is, do you stand by that provision of the

12     agreement and do you understand that's your obligation today?

13        A.   Yes, of course I stand by it and I know exactly what my duty is.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I tender this document as well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19002 receives number P1504,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence, no objections.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Without going through it, since your plea, you've testified in

22     quite a few trials?

23        A.   That is correct, yes.

24        Q.   All right.  I'm now moving on to a new topic and speaking about

25     the period around July 1995, the summer of 1995.  I'd like to have you

Page 11776

 1     explain to the Trial Chamber what your duties were in your capacity in

 2     the security and intelligence organ of the Bratunac Light Infantry

 3     Brigade.

 4             So first of all, just to clarify, in the Bratunac Light Infantry

 5     Brigade, you were chief of security and intelligence.  Was that usual or

 6     in other brigades of the VRS were those duties sometimes divided between

 7     two people?  Sorry, that was kind of a long question.

 8        A.   In July 1995, I was in the 1st Light Bratunac Infantry Brigade as

 9     the chief of the organ for intelligence and security.  It's true that in

10     brigades such as infantry brigades, those two functions were separate,

11     and are carried out by two officers.  In my brigade -- or, rather, in

12     light infantry brigades, from what I know these two functions were merged

13     and carried out by one officer.

14             As for the remit of our work, as the intelligence security

15     officer in the light infantry brigade, I carried out the following

16     duties:  Intelligence work.  I carried out tasks in counter-intelligence.

17     Then I worked in command staff security, those matters.  Then I was also

18     dealing with military police duties as well as criminal, legal matters.

19     So briefly speaking, all these are responsibilities of the intelligence

20     security organ in the light infantry brigade.

21             If we look at it in percentages, the intelligence security organ

22     in the light infantry brigade in practice, percentage-wise carries out

23     tasks and assignments approximately -- intelligence and

24     counter-intelligence jobs account for some 80 per cent and all the other

25     things I mentioned, the staff administrative, police and criminal duties

Page 11777

 1     account for some 15 to 20 per cent of the total work.  If you're

 2     interested in details of these activities, I can talk about that as well.

 3        Q.   That's good for now.  Thank you.  Was there a person named

 4     Zlatan Celanovic in the brigade in July 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, there was.

 6        Q.   And just very briefly, what was his role and if any way did it

 7     intersect with your duties in the intelligence and security organ?

 8        A.   I'll try to be as brief as possible.  Mr. Celanovic, as per war

 9     assignment, was part of the organ for religious and moral affairs.

10     However, in practical terms, he was engaged with -- in the military

11     police.  Why?  Because in the light infantry brigade, security and

12     intelligence organs do not act as authorised officials.  We did not have

13     official IDs as opposed to similar personnel in infantry brigades.

14             The area of law and criminal procedure, that is to say, drafting

15     criminal reports and gathering documents as well as preparing criminal

16     reports to be submitted to the commander for signature, all that was done

17     by Zlatan Celanovic while I was in the Bratunac Brigade .  In addition to

18     that, Zlatan Celanovic interrogated 98 per cent of the cases, I believe.

19     He interrogated all those who were taken prisoner or fled from the

20     Muslim-held territory to our territory.  So he interrogated prisoners and

21     gathered documents and information on potential war crimes carried out by

22     Muslim soldiers who were captured, or committed by some persons who fled

23     over to the side -- the Bratunac Brigade side.  After he would complete

24     all of these tasks, he submitted criminal reports to the brigade

25     commander for signature.  The reports on interrogations and the case

Page 11778

 1     files pertaining to other offences pertaining to members of the Bratunac

 2     Brigade were forwarded to the brigade commander and myself.  That was the

 3     scope of his activity.  When all of that was done, certain reports that

 4     were signed were handed over by him to the military judiciary.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, briefly, I'm going to ask you some questions

 6     about reporting -- your reporting duties and the way the command

 7     structure worked.

 8             Who was your direct commander in July 1995?

 9        A.   My commander in July 1995 was my brigade commander, Colonel

10     Vidoje Blagojevic.

11        Q.   And you would report to him then?

12        A.   Whenever there was a need to do so.

13        Q.   And what about the so-called professional or expertise chain of

14     reporting?  In other words, the intelligence and security organs.  Was

15     there any reporting you did up to the Drina Corps level, to the intel and

16     security chiefs there?

17        A.   Yes.  I did submit reports.  If I may, I'd like to explain it in

18     two sentences because I believe it requires some attention.  Security

19     organs are commanded by the officer in whose unit you were.  In my case

20     it was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade.  He commanded me, he issued

21     commands to me, as the chief of the organ.

22             Professional management is a different concept, and in that

23     regard, we are managed by our first superior in the superior command, the

24     person in charge of security and intelligence.  In my case, it was the

25     sector for intelligence and security in the command of the Drina Corps.

Page 11779

 1     When it comes to reporting, usually during daily briefings, I reported to

 2     my commander about all matters and information pertaining to my scope of

 3     authority, that is to say, security and intelligence.

 4             Depending on the needs, daily reports were drafted, sent to the

 5     professional body that manages my organ, that is to say, the sector for

 6     security and intelligence of the Drina Corps.  That was standard

 7     procedure.  However, there were exceptions.  If information is crucial,

 8     that is more general in scope, then only the area of responsibility of

 9     one's brigade or corps, and if you believe the Main Staff should be

10     appraised of it, then you send a report.  If it has to do with security,

11     then you send it to the security department of the Main Staff, either to

12     the chief or the sector itself, and then that piece of information is

13     automatically sent to the Drina Corps command, to the sector for

14     intelligence and security, as well as the sector for intelligence and

15     security of the Main Staff.  That is the professional line of reporting

16     when it comes to security and intelligence organs.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And just quickly, who was your superior in the

18     professional line, in the security branch in the Drina Corps?  Do you

19     remember his name?

20        A.   I sent my reports to the sector of the Drina Corps.  Two officers

21     worked there.  One of them was Vujadin Popovic and the other,

22     Mr. Kosoric.  They were the two officers in the sector within the

23     Drina Corps in the period you are asking me about.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And is that Svetozar Kosoric?

25        A.   Yes, precisely.  Popovic and Kosoric.

Page 11780

 1        Q.   And just very quickly, which of these two men was in the security

 2     organ and which was in intel?

 3        A.   From what I know, and I still believe it to be true, Popovic was

 4     in the security organ and Mr. Kosoric was in charge of intelligence.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just going to move on a bit now, just a few

 6     questions about the military police in the Bratunac Brigade.  Was there a

 7     military police platoon in the brigade in July 1995?

 8        A.   Yes, there was.

 9        Q.   And who was the commander of that unit?

10        A.   The military police commander in Bratunac was Mirko Jankovic.

11        Q.   And just quickly, who was his superior?  Who would issue him

12     commands?

13        A.   When it comes to the military police, there too are two things

14     that need to be clearly distinguished.  First of all is who is in command

15     of the military police and who professionally manages the military

16     police.  The military police is directly commanded by the officer in

17     whose unit the military police unit is.  In my case, direct command of

18     the military police was in the hands of Vidoje Blagojevic.  In

19     professional terms, the military police is directly managed by the

20     security organ.  The security organ in my brigade was me.  My task was to

21     propose the use of the military police to the commander, to keep an eye

22     on combat readiness of the military police, and to keep an eye on the

23     implementation of tasks or task issued by the commander.  These are the

24     basic three tasks in all respects when it comes to professional

25     management over the military police in the brigade.

Page 11781

 1        Q.   Thank you.  But just to be clear, then, the final person who has

 2     a say over what tasks the military police should carry out, is it you or

 3     the brigade commander?

 4        A.   When I said that the commander had command over the military

 5     police, this entails precisely that.  The commander is the person issuing

 6     orders to the military police through the military police commander in

 7     the MP platoon in the case of my brigade.  So the commander is the one

 8     who issues tasks and orders the use of the military police and everything

 9     else when it comes to the concept of command over the military police.

10     The security chief does not have a possibility to command the military

11     police or to issue orders to them.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Moving on to another topic now, still focusing on

13     your duties during 1995, and we'll get to July soon, did you act as a

14     liaison officer to DutchBat and to various humanitarian organisations in

15     1995?

16        A.   Yes.  On top of the duties I had, which is the head of the

17     security and intelligence organ, I also carried out tasks entrusted or

18     actually ordered to me by the brigade commander, when a check-point was

19     set up at the Yellow Bridge, the duties of liaison officer.  My task was

20     to be in contact with members or representatives of DutchBat, that is to

21     say, of the UNPROFOR peacekeeping forces in the protected area of

22     Srebrenica.  Also, as the liaison officer, I was in contact with all

23     those who had an office in the enclave, in Srebrenica.  This includes the

24     military observers, the international civilian police, the Medecins Sans

25     Frontieres, the ICRC, and I think there was a representative who was in

Page 11782

 1     charge of humanitarian assistance and was also a UNHCR representative in

 2     Srebrenica.  During that time, as of the moment when the Srebrenica was

 3     declared a demilitarised zone, I was the liaison officer who was in

 4     contact with the aforementioned organisations.

 5        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  And I'll break this up now and ask you

 6     some questions first about your duties in regard to DutchBat and later

 7     with the other organisations, but, first of all, you mentioned the

 8     Yellow Bridge check-point.  Could you briefly tell the Trial Chamber the

 9     location of that Yellow Bridge, the check-point you referred to?

10        A.   I can even show you where it is on the map, but to put it in the

11     simplest terms, it is on the border between the check-point of DutchBat

12     and the territory that was controlled by my, that is to say, the Bratunac

13     Brigade.  The distance between the two check-points was about between

14     100 and 150 metres.  Geographically speaking, it was five to

15     six kilometres from Bratunac.  From Potocari -- no, I would say

16     four kilometres away from Bratunac and perhaps three kilometres away from

17     Potocari.  I'm not sure whether I got the kilometres precisely.  But the

18     important thing was that the Yellow Bridge was along the demarcation line

19     between the forces of the VRS, where our positions are, and UNPROFOR

20     forces protecting the enclave.  It was precisely in the area where my

21     2nd Infantry Battalion was.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if you could just briefly, as briefly as you

23     can, give us a short overview of what the topics were of your

24     conversations and contacts with DutchBat?  When you met with DutchBat,

25     and let's focus on 1995, what would you talk about with them?  What were

Page 11783

 1     their issues, what were your issues?

 2        A.   I can only answer in principle because each of our meetings or

 3     actually the reason for a meeting was different every time.  However, in

 4     principle, the biggest problems we discussed were those that had to do,

 5     first of all, with violations of the border of the demilitarised zone, by

 6     either side.  We met and discussed things when victims were not soldiers

 7     and were unarmed.  Seldom did we meet and discuss when there was an

 8     exchange of fire and when there were wounded and casualties on the

 9     demarcation line, when it came to soldiers.

10             We also met when we, or they, had a problem with entry or exit in

11     or from the enclave.  The Serb forces occasionally violated the borders

12     of the zone by setting up a new position, and then in such cases we would

13     meet with the DutchBat representatives who required that the Serb forces

14     withdraw to their original position.  In other cases, Muslims in groups

15     made incursions deep inside Serb territory, setting up ambushes, carrying

16     out sabotage actions, when, as a result, civilians were often wounded who

17     moved along roads in vehicles, but soldiers as well.  We also met when it

18     came to their requests, if there were some issues to be raised regarding

19     rotations of their companies.  So, for example, they had a plan to rotate

20     one of their companies on a specific date and did not receive permission.

21     In that case, they would send their request to me and I would forward it

22     to the Main Staff and the corps command to deal with the issue or at

23     least to provide an answer to their request.

24             When it comes to other organisations, representatives of the

25     ICRC, the physicians without frontiers, the UNHCR, et cetera, I was

Page 11784

 1     always in contact with all of them, and there were different issues at

 2     different times.  Let me cite one issue per organisation.  For example,

 3     the ICRC --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Your question, I think, was about subjects of

 5     discussion with DutchBat.  Now, the witness apparently -- unless this is

 6     exactly what you wanted to ask from him, but I noticed that short and

 7     focused questions might lead to shorter answers.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  You're quite correct, thank you, Your Honour.  In

 9     fact, he, Mr. Nikolic answered the question I had about the DutchBat.  My

10     next question would have been to similarly give an overview of the types

11     of issues that were dealt with with the humanitarian and other

12     organisations and I will try to tailor the questions to be --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If you do it in such a way, if you ask for an

14     overview or a brief description of something, the result usually is that

15     we have a very long description.  So focused questions might be a better

16     use of your time, but of course it's your witness.  I leave it to you.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   So, sir, Mr. Nikolic, if you could just briefly in the next

19     couple minutes, tell us just the big topics, the kind of usual topics,

20     that you would discuss with the international organisations, if you can

21     just tell us quickly kind of what -- what the issues were.

22        A.   I think I already answered with regard to the protection forces

23     in the enclave.  When it comes to the ICRC, we discussed the status of

24     civilians, the captured persons on both sides, and on people who flew

25     from the enclave.  I was particularly interested in discussing the issue

Page 11785

 1     of Serb civilians who remained in the enclave, to have those who wanted

 2     to leave the enclave brought out.  They would then bring them to the

 3     Yellow Bridge.  Those who wanted to leave, I accommodated their request

 4     and reunited them with their families.  Those who wanted to stay were

 5     allowed to stay.

 6             When it comes to the UNHCR, we discussed the entry of

 7     humanitarian convoys and the issues that they were facing inside the

 8     enclave.  Then there were requests from the Serb side to assist, and they

 9     did so, to assist for the Serb population in Bratunac and the Muslim

10     population in Srebrenica.

11             As for the Medecins Sans Frontieres, I frequently discussed

12     medical issues with them and usually they had a problem with medication,

13     and there were requests by the Serb side as well as the Muslim side.  The

14     Muslims usually required more medication, bandages and everything.  They

15     needed to keep their health centre and the hospital running.  Those

16     are -- were more or less the issues that were discussed the most.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I now want to talk to you about the period leading up

18     before the fall or liberation of the enclave in July 1995, and what the

19     goals were of the VRS at that time.  First of all, though, just -- this

20     may have already been in evidence, but what is the meaning of the word

21     "Podrinje," what is the area encompassed when we say the "Podrinje"?

22        A.   The word "Podrinje," it includes a number of municipalities

23     located along the River Drina.  There is Gornje Podrinje, to put it in

24     broad terms, those are the municipalities in the upper part of the Drina,

25     that is to say, Foca, Gorazde, Visegrad, Srebrenica, Bratunac, Zvornik,

Page 11786

 1     and Bijeljina.  Well, Bijeljina is already part of Semberija but it

 2     follows the Drina.  So these are the municipalities along the river.  And

 3     that is the general area next to the river.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, is the schedule a break at

 6     10?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  A break at 10, yes.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just quickly, if I could have 65 ter 05924.

 9        Q.   This is a document you've seen before, Mr. Nikolic.  It's a

10     Bratunac Brigade command report for the brigade.  It's dated 4 July 1994.

11     And it's signed by the then commander of the Bratunac Brigade,

12     Slavko Ognjenovic.  Do you recall this document, sir?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   And the first paragraph refers to the visit to the corps, the

15     recent visit, by the commander of the VRS General Staff, and do you

16     recall General Mladic visiting at that time, around that time?

17        A.   Yes.  I do know that General Mladic visited the Bratunac Brigade

18     in that period.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  And could we go now to page 2 of the English and

20     also of the Serbian.

21        Q.   And if you look at the top of page 2 in your language, which

22     begins "U Podrinju," and if we look at the bottom of the English it

23     states:

24             "We have won the war in the Podrinje but we have not beaten the

25     Muslims ..."

Page 11787

 1             And if we could go to page 3 of the English now.

 2             "... but we have not beaten the Muslims completely, which is what

 3     we must do in the next period.  We must attain our final goal, an

 4     entirely Serbian Podrinje.  The enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde

 5     must be defeated militarily."

 6             Then it continues:

 7             "We must continue to arm, train, discipline and prepare the RS

 8     army for the execution of this crucial task, the expulsion of Muslims

 9     from the Srebrenica enclave.  There will be no retreat when it comes to

10     the Srebrenica enclave.  We must advance.  The enemy's life has to be

11     made unbearable and their temporary stay in the enclave impossible so

12     that they leave the enclave en masse as soon as possible, realising that

13     they cannot survive there."

14             Now, can you just comment on this section I've read out, in your

15     understanding as it reflects the goals of the -- of the Bratunac Brigade

16     at this time?

17        A.   I will try to answer based on what I could see and what you just

18     read out.  I will comment on it.  But limiting it to my own position, my

19     personal position, as regards the text.  I'll start with this latest part

20     of it.  There will be no retreat concerning the enclave of Srebrenica.

21     We must go forward, the enemy's life has to be made unbearable and their

22     temporary stay in the enclave impossible.  This part, in my mind, is a

23     military part and I see nothing in dispute here.  It discusses the enemy.

24     I think in military terms, and in linguistic terms, it means as it is

25     spelled out.

Page 11788

 1             What I find worth discussing is the next part which has to do

 2     with the en masse expulsion from the enclave, the part that has to do

 3     with expelling the Muslims.  These things should not be in this document,

 4     nor is it a military task.  In my understanding, nothing that has to do

 5     with combat should not and ought not be directed against the retreating

 6     Muslim population.  It can be directed against the armed forces and

 7     soldiers, those that you are engaging with, but not against a civilian

 8     population.  If I didn't know what I know, if I didn't know what happened

 9     in 1995, then I would not even dispute part of what we read; but since

10     I do know what happened with those who were supposed to be protected,

11     that is also how I understand it, that is to say, that the goal was to

12     empty the enclave unselectively, of course it had to be militarily

13     defeated but the ultimate goal was to have the enclave devoid of Muslims

14     so that they leave it entirely.  That is what comes to mind reading this

15     part of the text.

16        Q.   Thank you, I'll have a couple more questions on this document for

17     you, Mr. Nikolic, after the break.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we will first take the break.

19             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom first.

20     I think the usher and security together should take care of that.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes

23     past 10.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.03 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.

Page 11789

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2             We will take the next break a bit earlier than usual, most likely

 3     at ten minutes past 11.00 and the break will be slightly longer, most

 4     likely 45 minutes.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, you may proceed.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Could we now go to the last page, page 6 of the English, page 3

 9     of the Serbian.

10        Q.   At the very end of this report, just above the commander's

11     signature, it states:

12             "Circulate this report among all brigade members and have them

13     sign for it.  Review the report in companies, et cetera."

14             My question is:  Was this report, in fact, disseminated to the

15     members of the brigade as ordered?

16        A.   Just to be precise, I have a bad interpretation, it's an

17     information, it's not a report.  This is an information.  The signatory

18     is the then commander, Slavko Ognjenovic.  This information was first

19     worked through at the meeting of the Bratunac Brigade command in its

20     extended composition, attended by the battalion commanders as well.

21     After we were informed, the battalion commanders were given the task of

22     working through this information in their battalions, company by company,

23     so that all the soldiers could be informed about this information.  And

24     that's what was done.  The person responsible for this assignment was the

25     assistant commander for morale, religious and legal affairs,

Page 11790

 1     Major Jevtic.  Meaning, what you asked me, the information was entirely

 2     worked through the way the commander ordered.

 3        Q.   Right.  Now, you talked before about one of the issues that you

 4     discussed with DutchBat was violations of the enclave and you talked a

 5     little bit about civilian casualties on the Muslim side.  What was the

 6     effect, if any, that you could see from your position as intelligence and

 7     security chief, that this information had on sniping attacks, other

 8     attacks on civilians in the enclave?

 9        A.   In my previous answer, regarding what we talked about, I and the

10     members of the Dutch battalion, we talked about violating the enclave

11     frontiers and opening of fire from positions, and now I'm talking about

12     the opening of fire from positions of my brigade.  Since the Srebrenica

13     area was declared a demilitarised zone, we were never ever able to

14     establish peace and a complete cease-fire.  So opening of fire, sniper

15     action, fire from different weapons happened constantly, sometimes it was

16     more intense, sometimes it was less frequent.  After this information,

17     well, this is more or less, I will be free to say that this was the green

18     light and an alibi for those undisciplined with whom I personally, as a

19     security organ, had problems before that, because this served, and I can

20     say freely, simply, they were perhaps not able to, nor did they want to,

21     differentiate between targets that should be fired at, and those that

22     should be not fired at.  Those that I had problems with I requested that

23     they be brought in, I asked that they be punished.  Those who opened

24     fire.  Mostly -- actually, fire was opened in the enclave at those who --

25     other than soldiers.  I'm not talking about -- other than soldiers, other

Page 11791

 1     than those who were armed and were moving from their positions to their

 2     homes or were walking between trenches at their positions.  Fire was

 3     opened at civilians who should not have been the targets of either sniper

 4     action or any other fire because now we are not talking about sniper

 5     action.  We are talking about weaponry that you have in a battalion.  You

 6     have an undisciplined soldier with a semi-automatic rifle who can fire in

 7     front of him some 200 to 300 metres ahead, and these are positions where

 8     they were.  They were places where there were civilian houses, fields,

 9     yards, where people were going about their everyday business, they were

10     working in their fields, mowing, so on and so forth.  So it was a major

11     problem.  And according to my understanding and what I had as a problem

12     was an intensified action at those who happened to be in the enclave.

13        Q.   Okay.  So that was a long answer, but just let me make sure I'm

14     clear.  This information, once it was passed down, you're saying gave the

15     green light to opening fire on Muslim civilians who were in their fields

16     and going about their business?

17        A.   After this information was read out in the brigade units, in

18     battalions, companies, platoons, then you can see for yourself from this

19     text, regarding making life more difficult, creating impossible

20     conditions, everything that says in that part, it says, and

21     I personally -- I am personally talking from my own personal experience.

22     I never could not explain to anyone on the line that they should not fire

23     anymore into the enclave.  Whatever I would say to them, I got the

24     answer, "We have permission, the commander permitted us to do that, we

25     should be opening fire, and what are you playing at?"  This was

Page 11792

 1     literally, "What do you want now?  We have permission from the

 2     commander."  So then in the beginning I had problems with the commander

 3     also and I requested, I requested that this be suspended, that this be

 4     prevented, so that we could explain somehow what it was exactly that they

 5     could open fire at.  And like that.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05924 receives number P1505,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Let me move on now because of the time and I'm going to now ask

14     you some questions on a different topic and that is about convoys

15     entering the enclave and how that process worked, and we are going to

16     talk about two sorts, humanitarian aid and supply to DutchBat.  All

17     right?

18        A.   All right.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 05517, please.

20        Q.   While it's coming up, I'll read, this is a Drina Corps command

21     very urgent order of 24 July 1994.  So 20 days after the document we just

22     looked at.  I'll try to go through this a bit quickly, sir.

23             Now we see here on the front page, the preamble is that this

24     order is pursuant to a briefing on 1 July 1994 to the VRS Main Staff

25     commander by Drina Corps commander and regiment brigade commanders about

Page 11793

 1     the level of combat readiness in units.  Regarding measures, actions and

 2     tasks relating to Muslim enclaves of Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you're reading, Mr. Nicholls, you should slow

 4     down.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 6             And this is signed by then commander of the Drina Corps,

 7     Milenko Zivanovic.

 8             If I could go to page 2 of the English, still page 1 of the

 9     Serbian.

10             Now, if we look at point 3:

11             "No equipment is to be allowed into the 'enclaves' apart from

12     food and medication which are approved by the VRS Main Staff."

13             Below that, we see, now in Serbian page 2, I believe:

14             "All authorised cargo and people (authorisation from the VRS Main

15     Staff) is to be thoroughly checked at the following check-points."

16             And then below, point B is about leaving the enclaves.

17             Now, first of all, can you tell us if that's correct, what we see

18     here, that the equipment allowed into the enclaves is strictly to be

19     limited to that approved by the Main Staff?

20        A.   Well, we can see that can be concluded on the basis of the order,

21     as far as I can see.

22        Q.   Yes.  And in practice, based on your position, being there at the

23     time, were the orders of the Main Staff followed, as it's ordered here,

24     in terms of what materials would be allowed to enter the enclave?

25        A.   As for the check-point in Zuti Most, the whole time I and all

Page 11794

 1     those working at the check-point acted in accordance with the orders and

 2     the approvals we received from the Main Staff or from the coordinating

 3     body of Republika Srpska.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We will talk about that more in a minute.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, Your Honours?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05517 receives number P1506,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P1506 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Now, again, you started talking about it.  If you can, really as

12     briefly as you can, describe the process about how you would determine

13     what materials would be allowed into the enclave at the check-point at

14     the Zuti Most or Yellow Bridge?  In other words, how these orders

15     regarding what was to be admitted reached you from the Main Staff.

16        A.   I'm obliged to say for the sake of precision that I received

17     orders at the Bratunac 1st Light Infantry Brigade signed by

18     Mr. Dragan Kekic.  That is one type of approval or permission.  The next

19     type was signed for the most part percentage-wise by

20     Mr. Manojlo Milovanovic, the chief of the Main Staff.  And then from time

21     to time, I would receive orders signed by Vice-President Koljevic, by

22     name.

23             All those orders, regardless of who signed them, when they came

24     to my brigade, they were to be executed and we acted strictly pursuant to

25     the orders that we received.  I don't know the ratio, I don't know the

Page 11795

 1     relationship in the coordinating body, in the term -- in terms of who was

 2     in charge of what, as for convoys that had to do with humanitarian aid

 3     and civilians and those that had to do with DutchBat.  But I know that

 4     each order, regardless of the signature, was valid when received at our

 5     check-point.

 6             Once we received an order, it would list precisely who would be

 7     allowed to pass.  There would be the first and last name, ID information

 8     of those persons, and there would be a list of the cargo per truck, the

 9     types of cargo in the truck, the quantities, the type.  So regardless of

10     whether that applied to the DutchBat or anyone else, this is how it

11     worked.  Before the convoy actually arrived to the check-point at Zuti

12     Most.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let me stop you there because we will look at a

14     couple documents to illustrate what you're describing.  When you said

15     "coordinating body," you're referring there to the coordinating body in

16     Pale, the civilian body?

17        A.   Yes, that was the coordinating body of the government of

18     Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Are you aware of whether there was a member of the Main Staff on

20     that coordinating body?

21        A.   The -- what I know is that the member of the coordinating body

22     was Dragan Kekic.  Biljana Plavsic was in that body and Dr. Koljevic.

23     What I know from the Main Staff, and I'm not sure, is -- I think that a

24     member of that coordinating body was Mr. Manojlo Milovanovic, the Chief

25     of Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 11796

 1        Q.   Let me move on now, if I could show you --

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I could please have 65 ter 05526.

 3        Q.   Sir, this is a document which has Main Staff, Army of VRS, on the

 4     top left, 2nd of April, 1995.  It's signed by General Milovanovic, who

 5     you just spoke about, if we were to look at the -- you can see that on

 6     your page -- no, not on your page but we'll get to that.  And it

 7     states -- well, first I'd like you to read the handwritten part on the

 8     top right.  Tell us what that says.

 9        A.   "Not a single convoy or ICRC team or MSF may enter Srebrenica

10     without my permission and presence."

11             And then the signature is Momir Nikolic, which is my signature.

12        Q.   And is that your handwriting?

13        A.   Yes.  What it says here, that's what I wrote, and it's my

14     signature.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this is to the command of the Drina Corps, SRK

16     and IBK, and it says at the top:

17             "We hereby inform you that we consent to the request of the RS

18     coordinating body for HP emergency services as follows."

19             And now if we look at the bottom, item number 3, I won't read it

20     out for time's sake, but if you take a look at that it talks about how

21     many pencils, how many markers, how many staples.  Is that the kind of

22     detail that you were referring to when you said you would receive

23     detailed instructions from the Main Staff of exactly what was allowed

24     into the enclaves, into Srebrenica?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, these permissions, I don't know of any

Page 11797

 1     other form, so practically in each one of them, it was written in this

 2     way what could enter, total, identification, number, name, quantities,

 3     vehicle, persons who were entering, everything.  That was the usual form

 4     of the permits that I would receive and that I would see.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  May I tender this, Your Honours?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05526 receives number P1507,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             Mr. Nicholls, your last question, could there be any doubt as

11     that this reflects a level of detail?  I mean, if you read it, you know

12     it, isn't it?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, but he had -- Your Honours, the reason I did

14     that, he answered a question earlier describing that things were spelled

15     out in detail and I was trying to show this as a typical example confirm

16     that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber, having this document in evidence, can

18     see that it's the level of detail apart from what we have -- I think we

19     have similar documents in the past but ...

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  There could be possibly no doubt about that, you

22     could even agree on it, that this reflects a level of detail.  Please

23     proceed.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm just checking, Your Honours.  I may skip a

25     couple documents now.

Page 11798

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what they are but if you think it's

 2     wise to do it, then do it as you -- or if documents, of course, if you

 3     don't need to go through them with the witness, then of course there is

 4     still a possibility to bar table them at any future point in time.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  I'll move on a little bit.

 6             Could I have 65 ter 04215, please?

 7        Q.   Sir, this is now in July 1995, 4 July 1995.  It's headed

 8     "Military Secret, Strictly Confidential, Analysis of combat readiness in

 9     the first half of 1995," to the Drina Corps from your brigade, the

10     Bratunac Brigade.  And just, if you can with a "yes" or "no," you're

11     familiar with this document?

12        A.   Yes, I do know.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please go to page 17 of the English, which

14     should be page 31 in the Serbian original?

15        Q.   Now, this report to the Drina Corps, from your brigade, the

16     six-month report on the combat readiness, states:

17             "During 1995, international organisations and their

18     representatives have passed through and stayed temporarily in the

19     brigade's area of responsibility.  Their stay and activities in the area

20     of responsibility were monitored and every significant event was promptly

21     reported to the superior organs of the Drina Corps and the Main Staff."

22             Then it says:

23             "In the brigade's area of responsibility, a check-point was

24     established for the control of all international organisations entering

25     and leaving the enclaves of Srebrenica.  This check-point functions in

Page 11799

 1     accordance with the orders of the Main Staff and instructions and orders

 2     of the brigade commander."

 3             This is in the intelligence and security section of this report.

 4     Could you just tell us if what is written there is accurate based on the

 5     situation in that period?

 6        A.   I wrote this, and it is accurate.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, Your Honour?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04215 receives number P1508,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1508 is admitted.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, what I want to ask you about now is having discussed the way

14     the convoy system worked, and your role in it, checking it at the

15     Yellow Bridge, speaking now about DutchBat and UNPROFOR, what was the

16     effect of the orders passed on by the Main Staff about how much material

17     should be allowed in to resupply DutchBat?  In other words, I'm asking

18     you, as head of intel and security and liaison to DutchBat, whether,

19     during this period, let's focus in April, May, June, 1995, if enough

20     material was being allowed in to DutchBat to allow them to carry out

21     their tasks.

22        A.   What I know for certain is the following:  In April, May and

23     June, and until operations began, is the period, that is to say, the

24     three months, where certain restrictions were imposed with regard to

25     DutchBat, but also all of the others who depended on the convoys and who

Page 11800

 1     were in Srebrenica.

 2             I will focus on DutchBat.  Given the fact that I was in permanent

 3     contact with them, I can address their requests and I can discuss my

 4     analyses that I did concerning DutchBat.  I can confirm that there were

 5     different restrictions on lubricants, fuels, and on timely rotation of

 6     forces in the enclave of Srebrenica that were foreseen to be rotated.

 7     They did it from time to time, sending some on leave and bringing in

 8     others.  I can certainly tell you that it all had a negative impact on

 9     the combat readiness and on the implementation of the designated tasks

10     they should have been carrying out in the enclave.

11        Q.   And what was the impact?  If I can just help you, I'll refer to

12     as an example something you testified to in the Tolimir case at T12325.

13     You said that according to your estimates, not even 10 per cent of the

14     fuel required by DutchBat would be allowed in at this time.  So what was

15     the effect, you said there was an effect, what was it, of these

16     restrictions?

17        A.   I believe I've answered the question, but I will repeat.  If

18     I said there were negative consequences for their combat readiness, the

19     readiness of the protection force's battalion, it entails that they

20     lacked fuel and lubricants to carry out their designated tasks.  This

21     entailed the engagement of APCs and everything else that required fuel in

22     order to function -- for the unit to function normally.  It includes the

23     hospital, the health clinic, their own premises, generators, APCs,

24     trucks, and everything else.  I speak on the basis of my own analyses and

25     on the basis of their objections they forwarded to me and their requests.

Page 11801

 1     They asked me to convey to my superior commands that their requests and

 2     quantities should be respected.  Otherwise, they would be in no position

 3     to carry out their designated tasks.  As far as I know, although I was

 4     not in the enclave, it was all based on their requests sent to me, and it

 5     was on the basis of the quantities that eventually entered the enclave.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you, Mr. Nicholls referred to

 7     your testimony in the Tolimir case, where your estimate was that not even

 8     10 per cent of the fuel required would be allowed in.  Is that still your

 9     testimony?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I still claim that the quantities

11     provided were the bare minimum.  As an intelligence person, I can discuss

12     assessments based on the elements I had.  So it would be in the range of

13     10 to 15 per cent.  I stand by it.  That was far from sufficient.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Okay, just ten minutes before the break, sir, so I want to ask

17     you now a similar question but regarding the restrictions on humanitarian

18     aid.  Based on your knowledge as the intelligence and security officer of

19     the brigade, what was the effect on the Muslim population of the

20     Srebrenica enclave during this period of the amount of supplies allowed

21     in?

22        A.   I assessed the situation in Srebrenica.  I received information

23     from the organisations that -- who dealt with civilians and humanitarian

24     assistance.  Given the fact that I know that during that period there

25     were constant requests to increase the limited quantities irrespective of

Page 11802

 1     the permissions in place, there were, and I need to mention it, oral

 2     orders and requests made to me that I be present to control it all.  I

 3     know precisely that always, on our side, the requests were that some of

 4     the quantities envisaged for Srebrenica be provided to the Serb side

 5     because the Serb side believed the distribution to be unfair.  So there

 6     were constant problems in that regard.

 7             What was conveyed to me from the ICRC and the UNHCR was that the

 8     situation in Srebrenica was terrible, in all respects, health, that there

 9     were sick people, that there were many contagious diseases, lice, and

10     that they lacked hygiene items, and that they had insufficient quantities

11     of food.  The quantities allowed in were not enough for the people to

12     survive there in rather normal conditions.  Based on their reports and

13     statements, the situation was terrible.  That was the kind of information

14     I received directly from the people who were in charge of civilians.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I don't know if you would be

17     interested in taking the break now because I'm now going to go into a

18     completely new area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps I ask one question.  You said those

20     were the reports you received.  Did you have any reason to doubt the

21     accuracy of those reports?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a single reason to do

23     so.  My relationship with the people I was in contact with was an honest

24     one and it seems to me that we never tried to cross each other when we

25     discussed either misunderstandings or problems.  We were frank, no matter

Page 11803

 1     how painful the misunderstandings were or unpleasant for either myself or

 2     them.  I am 100 per cent convinced that we had a fair relationship,

 3     providing accurate information.  I have no reason to doubt that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No only providing accurate information but

 5     also receiving accurate information from your counterpart?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basically, always, according to my

 7     reports, which I sent, I think the reports were absolutely correct.  Of

 8     course, to the extent possible to be viewed by them, because the

 9     territory was a large one and the issue complex.  However, I do believe

10     that, to a large percentage, the reports were accurate, true.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we will take a break, but could first the

12     witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break, longer than usual.  We will

15     resume at five minutes to 12.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 11.06 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be -- could the accused be brought

19     into the courtroom.

20                           [The accused entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the witness be escorted into the

22     courtroom.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, if you're ready, you may proceed.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11804

 1        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, moving on now, I'm going to move up to the events in

 2     July, just before, during and after the fall or liberation of Srebrenica,

 3     and what you saw and know happened there.  So that's where I'm going.

 4             Now, the days leading up, immediately preceding 11 July, do you

 5     remember seeing any Drina Corps or Main Staff officers in Bratunac who

 6     had come, just prior to the 11th of July?

 7        A.   Yes.  I saw a number of officers from the Drina Corps command.

 8     I also saw a number of officers who arrived from the Main Staff.

 9        Q.   So if you could name them, please.  First, from the Main Staff,

10     and then Drina Corps.

11        A.   From the Main Staff, I saw commander of the Main Staff,

12     General Ratko Mladic.  I saw Colonel Jankovic, who is also from the

13     Main Staff and their intelligence administration.  From the Drina Corps,

14     I saw many officers, including General Krstic, Lieutenant Colonel

15     Popovic, Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, all of the officers who were

16     participating in the activities at the time, starting with

17     Vinko Pandurevic and from the other brigades.  They are members of the

18     Drina Corps but they were not from the Main Staff.  I saw all of those

19     men in the course of those few days in the Bratunac Brigade headquarters

20     in Bratunac.

21        Q.   Thank you.  When you talk about Colonel Jankovic from the

22     Main Staff, is that Radoslav Jankovic?

23        A.   Yes.  I had Radoslav Jankovic in mind from the intelligence

24     administration of the Main Staff.

25        Q.   And do you remember approximately what day it was that you first

Page 11805

 1     encountered Colonel Jankovic from the Main Staff in the brigade?

 2        A.   I am doubtful as regards that.  In any case, what I can recall is

 3     that it was on the 8th or the 9th of July.  I'm inclined to say that it

 4     was the 9th rather than the 8th, although I cannot guarantee that I'm

 5     correct.  In any case, it was within that period that I saw him at my

 6     brigade command.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Just to be clear, Mirko Jankovic was

 8     captain -- or was, sorry, commander of the military police in the

 9     Bratunac Brigade.  So there were two Jankovics in Bratunac at this time,

10     so we need to be careful.  Right?

11        A.   Yes, precisely.

12        Q.   Now, can you just -- can you briefly tell me what you did with

13     Colonel Jankovic from the Main Staff intelligence administration once he

14     arrived, since you were the intelligence officer in Bratunac.  If you

15     worked with him, in other words.

16        A.   Yes.  I did, after his arrival in the brigade.  Before that, I

17     don't know if he had seen my commander.  In any case, he arrived in my

18     office and told me that he came to the Bratunac Brigade, to my sector, on

19     orders of the Main Staff in order to assist me.  That is to say that as

20     of the day of his arrival he was to undertake all obligations regarding

21     contact with members of DutchBat and other international organisations in

22     Srebrenica.  He also said that as of that moment on, all activities that

23     had to do with intelligence and security, including the drafting of

24     reports to our superior commands, would be done jointly, that is to say,

25     together in my office.

Page 11806

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So just to be very clear, he shared your office while

 2     he was working there?

 3        A.   As of that date, when he came to my office, until the very end of

 4     the operation, when he went back to the Main Staff, he spent time with me

 5     and worked in my office.  We were sitting in the same office, working

 6     together, pertaining to our department.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me, Your Honours, I'm sorry to ask but when

 9     approximately will be the next break, just for my planning?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Next break will be at, let me see, at 12.55, five

11     minutes to 1.00.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Turning now to 11 July 1995, there is evidence in this case

14     already, I believe, about the movement of the population, a large body of

15     people moving from Srebrenica towards Potocari.  Can you tell me -- tell

16     the Trial Chamber if you heard about that population movement and when

17     you learned about people going from Srebrenica to the DutchBat base in

18     Potocari?

19        A.   I'd like to be precise on this topic.  I had information that

20     people were moving away from the direction of attack of the Serb forces,

21     and that civilians were on the move towards Srebrenica.  As for any

22     en masse movement from the area of Srebrenica to the area of Potocari,

23     I received such information and I could see that on the 11th of July,

24     sometime in the afternoon for the first time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And at some point, did you receive information about

Page 11807

 1     military-age men or able-bodied men, however you would like to describe

 2     them, being present at Potocari?

 3        A.   In the course of those few critical days, I kept receiving

 4     information from the units of my brigade and the infantry battalions.  A

 5     piece of information on the 11th was, and it was sometime in the

 6     afternoon, it arrived from the command of the 2nd Infantry Battalion,

 7     that they had observed a large group of civilians moving towards Potocari

 8     and the base.  As part of that report, they included their assessment,

 9     and it was my assessment as well, that in a group that size, there would

10     be also able-bodied men.

11        Q.   At some point did you make an assessment that there were 1500 to

12     2.000 military-aged able-bodied men at Potocari amongst the crowd?

13        A.   Yes.  That was the assessment of the 2nd Infantry Battalion, that

14     is to say, my subordinates in the battalion command.  It was also my

15     assessment based on my previous counter-intelligence assessment on the

16     size and force of the enemy.  It was my assessment that in case of an

17     attack or the fall of the enclave of Srebrenica, there would be a number

18     of able-bodied men amongst the population.

19             For the sake of the Chamber I would like to explain what

20     I understood as able-bodied men.  The fact that someone is able-bodied

21     does not mean that he was engaged in the military sense.  I knew

22     precisely that in Srebrenica the number of able-bodied men was greater

23     than the number of those who were actively involved in the units of the

24     Srebrenica Brigade, that is to say, the Muslim brigade.  That was the

25     assessment of the intelligence organ concerning the situation which

Page 11808

 1     ensued after the fall of the enclave.  So we relied on that figure, that

 2     is to say, between 1.000 and 1,500 people, as the number of people who

 3     could -- who were able-bodied and who could end up amongst the population

 4     in Potocari.

 5        Q.   All right.  And I think if I understand your explanation, what

 6     you're saying is that not all of those men would be members of the ABiH?

 7        A.   According to my assessments, that is to say, before the fall of

 8     the enclave, as well as in the course of those few critical days, it was

 9     my assessment that some of the able-bodied men under the then law, well,

10     that would include the category up to 60 or 65 years of age.  However,

11     they are still able-bodied and they were duty-bound to join the reserve

12     force if called upon to do so.  However, according to my assessment, some

13     of those men were not assigned to the different units of the

14     28th Division.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to move on a bit now and start talking

16     about the Hotel Fontana meetings in Bratunac.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, Mr. Nicholls, I have a

18     question on what the witness said a little earlier.  Somewhere you said,

19     sir, that you received information and you saw that large groups of

20     people were moving from Srebrenica to Potocari.  Just wanted to ask where

21     were you when you did see them, that large group.  I'm trying to find out

22     where I found it.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I believe it's page 40, line 2, Your Honour, or --

24     line 6 to 11, excuse me, on page 40.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  At line 10, "I received such information and

Page 11809

 1     I could see that on the 11th of July, sometime in the afternoon for the

 2     first time."  I just wanted to find out where were you at the time when

 3     you did see.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 11th of July, in the

 5     afternoon, several times, not once, I was in the area of responsibility

 6     of the 2nd Infantry Battalion in the Kokarde sector and my brigade had an

 7     observation post that sector.  And several times that day, when the

 8     operations started, when the attack on Srebrenica started, on that day,

 9     on the 11th, I went to the sector of the 2nd Infantry Battalion, the

10     village and the observation point were called Borici, that's where the

11     observation point was, and from those positions you could clearly see the

12     entire area that was in front of the positions of the 2nd Battalion of

13     the Bratunac 1st Brigade which was in immediate contact with the Potocari

14     sector, and that sector where the civilians were arriving.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   I'd like you to tell us, if you heard about -- how you heard

18     about the first Hotel Fontana meeting, how it came up that you learned

19     there was going to be a meeting at the Hotel Fontana, and then after you

20     tell me that, I'll ask you what you did.

21        A.   The information that a meeting would be held at the Fontana Hotel

22     came to me from Radoslav Jankovic, Colonel.  I heard it from him.  He

23     told me that members of the DutchBat soldiers and non-commissioned

24     officers or officers, I don't remember their ranks anymore, surrendered

25     and that they were in the Fontana Hotel and they asked for a meeting to

Page 11810

 1     be held with General Mladic, and that the attendants at the meeting would

 2     include General Ratko Mladic and the head of the DutchBat,

 3     Colonel Karremans.

 4        Q.   All right.  And what did you do?  What was your duty regarding

 5     this meeting, talking about the first meeting held on the 11th of July at

 6     the Hotel Fontana?

 7        A.   Colonel Jankovic from the Main Staff told me that it was my duty

 8     or that we should prepare the place where the meeting was supposed to be

 9     held.  My task and the task of the military police, the commander of the

10     military police and the police, was to prepare the Fontana Hotel

11     physically for that first and then subsequently the second meeting.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, I won't go through all the details of the

13     meeting, but can you tell us where you were during the meeting,

14     whether -- we can see that you're not on the video of that meeting but

15     where were you, what were you doing, during that first meeting at around

16     8 p.m. on 11 July?

17        A.   After we provided security at the Fontana Hotel, after we secured

18     it physically, outside the exit and a part of the reception area using

19     military police, together with Colonel Jankovic and the interpreter

20     Petar, we went inside the hotel to wait for General Mladic.  That's where

21     we waited for him.  The meeting was held in a small conference room at

22     the hotel.  I was to the -- well, to the left, there is a stage where the

23     musicians are supposed to be, so as you look from the entrance to the

24     left that is where I was standing.  General Mladic and Karremans went to

25     this small conference room, which has a sliding door, and that is where

Page 11811

 1     they went and that was where the first meeting and their first contact

 2     took place.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And just a last question on this.  Could you observe the

 4     meeting from where you were standing?

 5        A.   Yes, I could see the participants of the meeting and I could hear

 6     what they were saying.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I have basically the same questions for the second

 8     meeting, the one that was held later that night with the man this time

 9     from the civilians in Potocari.  If you could just tell us very briefly

10     what you did in relation to that meeting?  Did you secure the area the

11     same way?

12        A.   Exactly the same.  My role and the role of the military police

13     regarding the meeting was exactly the same as the first time.  So more or

14     less we knew the time, when they were supposed to come to the meeting

15     held at the order of General Ratko Mladic.  My task again was to provide

16     the conditions and security for the Hotel Fontana and the area around it,

17     as well as the route the DutchBat took, because -- and possibly members

18     of the Muslim side.  At the time I did not know if they would be there or

19     not.

20        Q.   Okay.  And same thing:  Did you observe this meeting without

21     participating in it?

22        A.   Throughout the meeting, the second meeting, I was present in the

23     same area of the Hotel Fontana.  I could see who was taking part.

24     I could hear what they were talking about, and at the end of the meeting,

25     pursuant to General Mladic's order, I escorted the participants to

Page 11812

 1     Potocari once the meeting was finished.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And at the time of the night-time meetings, had the

 3     information -- well, the information would have reached Colonel Jankovic

 4     and the Main Staff about the intelligence assessment of the number of

 5     men, able-bodied men, if we call them that, in Potocari; is that right?

 6        A.   All the information, everything that I wrote during those few

 7     days, was something that Colonel Jankovic knew because he was sitting in

 8     my office.  So officially I was in the office, together with Colonel

 9     Jankovic, and I wrote intelligence reports to the command of the

10     Drina Corps, and I think this was also sent to the Main Staff, and all

11     the information that we both had at our disposal we knew before we

12     informed the corps command and the Main Staff about them.  This

13     information was sent out in written form and we would also send out

14     questions about what it was that we needed to do.

15        Q.   Okay.  But then just specifically to this information about the

16     1500 or so men in Potocari, that information was available to the

17     Main Staff by the time of the Potocari meetings?  Fontana meetings,

18     sorry.

19        A.   In a professional way, in written form, it was addressed to the

20     superior commands, so I can just say that we sent out the information.

21     I assume - I can only assume - that all the key pieces of information

22     arrived at the intended destination along that command line.  I cannot

23     comment more on what happened to what we wrote.  All I know is that we

24     did write it and send it to the intended recipients.

25        Q.   Right.  But just last point, I'm just trying to be clear:  That

Page 11813

 1     was before the last Hotel Fontana meeting that you had sent that

 2     information?

 3        A.   Of course.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, if you're talk about the last Fontana

 6     meeting --

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, last Fontana meeting on 11 July, I

 8     should clarify.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.  That late evening meeting.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That is how you understood the question as well,

12     Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood the question that

14     this was before the last meeting on the 11th in the evening.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   Sorry, when you say "we" provided this information and you wrote

18     it up the chain, that is you and Colonel Jankovic; is that right?

19        A.   Yes.  I mean the two of us.  To be perfectly clear, no document,

20     once he arrived, was sent to the Drina Corps command with either my

21     signature or his signature or just from me or from him.  During those

22     days, we were a team that wrote all the reports together.  There were no

23     separate reports, one written by me, one written by him.  What this means

24     was when it was needed, we would sit at the desk, we would write the

25     information together, or a question, and then we would send it.  There

Page 11814

 1     were no separate, distinct opinions or information or anything.  We would

 2     draft it together.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I just want to move through the chronology of

 4     the next couple days.  After the second Hotel Fontana meeting on 11 July,

 5     what did you do that night?  Did you go anywhere and do anything else?

 6        A.   After the second meeting, the evening meeting, late-night

 7     meeting, after an order by the commander, Mr. Ratko Mladic, I escorted

 8     the participants of the second meeting to Potocari.  After that, I did

 9     not return to the Fontana because there was no need to do that.  After

10     that, I went to the command of my own -- the Bratunac Brigade.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So let's move on to 12 July, about what you remember

12     from that morning.  Do you recall a meeting at the Bratunac Brigade on

13     the morning of 12 July, including General Mladic and others?

14        A.   Yes.  I remember those meetings.  I remember the meeting on the

15     12th, in the morning, but there were many such meetings.  But of course

16     I remember that day.  I do need to say that on the 12th of July, from

17     7 a.m., I was on duty at the Bratunac Brigade command.  I was the duty

18     operations officer in my brigade.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 15141, please?

20        Q.   And what I'm about to show you, Mr. Nikolic - and I hope it's

21     clear on your screen - is a report of 12 July 1995.  It's a MUP report

22     signed by the chief of the CJB in Zvornik, Dragomir Vasic.  I see it's

23     dated 12 July.  And the part I'm focusing on is paragraph 2, a meeting

24     with General Mladic and General Krstic was held at the Bratunac Brigade

25     headquarters at -- and we have 0800 hours at which tasks were assigned to

Page 11815

 1     all those involved.

 2             The question is:  Do you remember Mr. Vasic being at the brigade

 3     or being at this meeting in the morning?

 4        A.   I did have that noted down in the operations logbook, which

 5     I kept meticulously, but I remember that on the 12th, a meeting like this

 6     was held in the morning.  It's true that I don't know what was discussed

 7     at the meeting, but I know that the meeting was attended by those who are

 8     referred to here, senior officers from the police and the army.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender that, Your Honours?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I noticed that quite a few portions are translated

12     as "illegible."  Looking at the original, I wonder what is illegible

13     there.  For example, the second it says "illegible of the minister in

14     Pale."  Now, I read in the original, "kabinet ministra [phoen] Pale."  So

15     same for the "illegible of the police forces in Bijeljina," I see

16     "SSTAB," so I wonder what explains the illegibility.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't have an answer, Your Honour, other than

18     perhaps Ms. Stewart's advised me that it may have -- the translation amy

19     have been from an earlier version that was not good quality, so we could

20     send this for a revision.  But it's the same document, but I see you're

21     quite right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know whether it's the same document.  If it

23     was another one which was badly legible, I don't know if it's the same,

24     but you apparently are certain of that.  The first, for example, says

25     "MUP Republika Srpska."  That is, there is no way that it would be

Page 11816

 1     illegible.  So therefore we will MFI the document, if you would come up

 2     with a full translation.  Mr. Lukic?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting although this is not my

 4     witness.  We have to actually object to this document.  Obviously there

 5     is something in the text, and we saw that previously, that is not in the

 6     original.  Somebody took the right to explain what some terms mean.  So

 7     here, in the translation, we have "Turks, derogatory for Muslims."

 8     That's not in the document, and we will not accept documents that

 9     translate or explain to us what something means.  So this is not

10     translation.  And we ask the Prosecution to replace this document, if

11     they want to MFI it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I take it that you want a translation and

13     nothing else, apart from -- are there other matters?  Because to say

14     that --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Not from my part at this moment.  I just wanted to

16     point out this --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It's just "Turks derogatory" -- and I'm also looking

18     one second to -- if you have one second for me.  Further down in the

19     text, under paragraph 7, there seems to be something illegible as well.

20     Even there I also have -- so it's not only in the upper part but -- one

21     second, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             Mr. Lukic, just to say not to MFI it, it's exactly because of our

24     concerns about the accuracy of the translation, whether it's about

25     illegibility or whether it's comments, that we will MFI it.  Then it's

Page 11817

 1     not in evidence and we will not admit it until we have a full translation

 2     and then a translation only.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls?

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, just briefly, Ms. Stewart's informed

 6     me she has found another translation which is a -- of the same ERN as the

 7     B/C/S original.  It does not have the "illegibles" and is a complete

 8     translation, so if we can upload that, that may --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Does it also not have the comments?

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  I can't see it now if it has the comments,

11     Your Honours, but I would just say that that is common in lots of

12     translations in this Tribunal and it's very clear that they are not in

13     the original.  So I don't really see a problem with --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at the same time, a further explanation of the

15     word "Turks" might not be needed, and let me just -- the document --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be marked for identification.

18     Mr. Lukic, the Chamber, of course, observed that on many occasion this

19     kind of interpretation or, you say, comments or explanation is found

20     often and of course often you have not objected to it.  So it's not

21     entirely clear to the Chamber why here you do, but technically you're

22     right, it's not translation but comment.  At the same time, comment which

23     I think most of us in this courtroom have seen many, many times,

24     especially in relation to this word.  But technically you're right.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 11818

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course it's clear that it was added, but we leave

 2     it to that.  The document will be marked for identification until a new

 3     translation without comments is uploaded.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, we would inquire who added this, whether

 5     that was done by CLSS or by the Prosecution.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Of course it's CLSS.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Then we'll ask from the CLSS to retranslate

 8     and extract these additions.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  But -- but -- [overlapping speakers] --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let's -- [overlapping speakers] --

11             MR. LUKIC:  We don't think CLSS is allowed to tell us what some

12     terms mean.  It's not their job.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if we need a discussion on that, we will

14     have to do it fundamentally because often you have also relied on

15     documents where, for example, acronyms are explained further, so this is

16     not uncommon.  But let's not use this document at this moment, but then

17     if you want to make submissions on that matter, of course you're free to

18     do so and then we may have a more fundamental discussion on it.  I would

19     say let's try to focus on what really is in dispute, and that Turks --

20     let's say the following:  The evidence shows here and there that "Turks"

21     is a derogatory term for Muslims.  That may be clear to everyone in this

22     courtroom.  But let's not have it now.  New translation.

23             It's MFI'd under what number, Madam Registrar?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is 15141 has been MFI'd under number

25     P1509, Your Honours.

Page 11819

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification, therefore.  Please

 2     proceed.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I take it then we have

 4     permission to upload and replace the translation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the replacement is upon approval by the Chamber,

 6     done by the Registrar, and you may upload it.  That's the system.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I see.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now, without going back to this document in much detail, it

 9     refers to that a meeting will be held at 10.00 a.m. with representatives

10     of UNPROFOR and the Muslim representative of Srebrenica, et cetera.

11     Could you tell us how and when you learned of the Hotel Fontana meeting

12     held on the morning of 12 July?

13        A.   At the last evening -- meeting of that evening of the -- on the

14     11th of July, General Mladic and Mr. Karremans agreed.  And of course at

15     this second night meeting there was a representative of the Muslim

16     civilians, Mr. Mandzic, so it was agreed that the next meeting should be

17     held the following day, on the 12th of July, at the same place in the

18     Hotel Fontana, starting at 10.00, and then the following day, my

19     assignment, the assignment of the military police and everything that

20     happened for the previous two meetings was provided for -- again.  The

21     hotel was emptied and security was provided so that that meeting could be

22     held, and it was, in fact, held on the 12th of July at 10.00.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, before the meeting started, did you meet with

24     any Drina Corps Colonels outside the Hotel Fontana?

25        A.   I arrived much earlier, at the Fontana, before the meeting was

Page 11820

 1     supposed to be held because of all the duties I had regarding security,

 2     preparation of the space and the police for the meeting, and then

 3     sometime before the meeting, I met Lieutenant Colonel Popovic,

 4     Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric in front of the Fontana before the meeting

 5     began.

 6        Q.   Did you speak with Colonels Popovic and Kosoric?

 7        A.   I did.  I spoke with Popovic.  Kosoric was also there.

 8     Mr. Popovic told me that that day, all the children, women, would be

 9     transferred to the territory, meaning that that was more or less the

10     position, the agreement, that they would be transferred to territory

11     under the control of the Muslim forces, meaning Kladanj or Tuzla, or

12     actually meaning that it would be a destination to which they wanted to

13     go.  Then he said that able-bodied men would be separated, and to my

14     question, "Lieutenant Colonel, sir, what will happen then with the men,"

15     he said arrogantly, "All balijas should be killed."  So that is what he

16     said to my question, "What about the men?"

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please clarify, witness, who said these

18     words?  It's not absolutely clear from the transcript.  That "all balijas

19     should be killed."

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Popovic and I had a

21     conversation.  It was a face-to-face conversation, and in response to my

22     question, "Lieutenant Colonel, sir," I was addressing Popovic, "what will

23     happen to the men?"  He arrogantly, as was his style, said, "All balijas

24     should be killed."  So I am conveying, I'm quoting what he said to me.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 11821

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:

 2        Q.   And then, what further conversation did you and Vujadin Popovic

 3     have about the men who were to be killed, the balijas?

 4        A.   I have not received interpretation.

 5        Q.   I'll try again.  Can you hear me?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   After Popovic told you that all the balijas would be killed --

 8     would be killed, what conversation followed between you and Mr. Popovic,

 9     if any, about the execution of these men?

10        A.   I need to be precise.  That's why I have to say this.  Before we

11     discussed the executions, there was another topic we discussed.  It was

12     the facilities where the separated able-bodied men from Potocari should

13     be accommodated temporarily or imprisoned.  Since I originate from

14     Bratunac and it was the area of responsibility of my brigade and I was

15     familiar with the terrain, I told Mr. Popovic that there were facilities,

16     vacant facilities, in Bratunac which could be easily secured with a small

17     number of forces.  Those separated at Potocari could be transported and

18     temporarily held in those facilities in Bratunac.  I mentioned the

19     Vuk Karadzic primary school, the hangar, the sports gym, and the

20     buildings within that perimeter, which is about 100 metres.  All those

21     buildings were in the centre of town, and yet vacant.  It was possible to

22     have them secured with a small number of troops.

23             After that, once we were through that topic -- with that topic,

24     two locations were mentioned, where the people should be executed, the

25     people separated at Potocari and transported to Bratunac.  The Sase mine

Page 11822

 1     was mentioned and the brick factory.  I need to say the following as

 2     well.  At those two locations, no murders took place and there was no

 3     organised execution of Muslims there captured there.  No one was ever

 4     transported to the Sase and the brick factory locations, not a single

 5     execution or murder took place there.

 6        Q.   Okay, that was quite a long answer.  Let me just make sure this

 7     is clear.  After Vujadin Popovic said all the balijas would be killed,

 8     there was a discussion of execution sites and it was suggested that the

 9     brick factory and Sase mine could be used as execution sites.  Is that

10     fair?

11        A.   Yes, it is.  It is correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, I'm looking at the clock.  We are half

13     a minute away from the time of the break.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  We can break now, Your Honours, and I'll carry on.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness first be escorted out of the

16     courtroom.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break and we will resume at quarter

19     past 1.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.55 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, if you're ready, you may proceed.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11823

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Nikolic, let me just ask before we move on to another

 2     topic, we discussed -- we were just talking now about the discussion --

 3     and you -- and the locations discussed for executions of prisoners were

 4     the Sase mine and the brick factory.  Did the brick factory have a name?

 5        A.   As far as I know, everyone referred to it as the brick factory.

 6     I don't know of any other name.  So the Sase mine and Ciglana, meaning

 7     the brick factory.  It's its original name, I know of no other.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Ciglana was the word I was trying to make clear.

 9             Now, if you remember, please tell us, who was it in that

10     conversation between yourself and Mr. Popovic who first mentioned

11     locations in Bratunac for the executions, Ciglana and the Sase mine?  Was

12     it you or Mr. Popovic or somebody else?

13        A.   In my testimony thus far, because I cannot quote, and I do not

14     recall exactly who mentioned it first, but I do know that first we

15     discussed the facilities for detaining them and then there was a

16     discussion.  I was there, Popovic and Kosoric.  I truly do not recall who

17     mentioned it first.  In any case, all three of us took part in the

18     discussion.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let me just, for your memory, read you back a short

20     question and answer about this topic, this is from your testimony in the

21     Blagojevic case, page 1677.  22nd September 2003.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  And I'm sorry, I don't have this in e-court.

23        Q.   "Q.  Were there any locations discussed for the killing of the

24     Muslim men?

25             "A.  Yes, yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  The places of execution were

Page 11824

 1     discussed and two locations were mentioned.  The first to be mentioned

 2     was the brickworks, the Ciglana, a state-owned company in Bratunac, and

 3     the area of the Sase mine in Sase village.

 4             "Q.  Who brought up these two locations as possible locations for

 5     execution?

 6             "A.  I mentioned both locations."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you're on your feet.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor has quoted already

 9     and has been leading for quite a while now.  I believe he could have

10     received an answer in a different way.  However, I truly need to

11     intervene now, having in mind that he's putting a transcript to his own

12     witness, trying to jog his memory by engaging -- by basically in

13     cross-examination while the witness has already answered.  It is a fact

14     that the transcript is in existence, and in it, the witness said what he

15     said, which is that he mentioned the location.  However, the witness has

16     already provided an answer during examination-in-chief here.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid that I do not understand either

18     Mr. Nicholls nor you, Mr. Petrusic.  First of all, Mr. Nicholls, I do not

19     understand why you would read an answer which is, I'd say, the same

20     answer as the witness gave, that they were mentioned.  You can just ask

21     the witness who came up with those names, so therefore I cannot see the

22     use at this moment, but perhaps I'm missing something.

23             At the same time, Mr. Petrusic, I therefore also do not see what

24     is there leading, if you read a portion of a previous testimony, which

25     gives more or less the same answer as the answer already given by the

Page 11825

 1     witness.  I mean it may be useless but to say it's leading is not what

 2     I understand it to be.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. -- there may be good reasons for that, but

 5     I still wonder whether you could have asked who came up with those names.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I may, Your Honours, what I did ask him was who

 7     was it in the conversation who first mentioned the locations for the

 8     executions Ciglana and Sase.  That's at page 56, lines 14 to 16.  Part of

 9     the answer given by Mr. Nikolic on line 20 at page 56 is:  "I truly do

10     not recall who mentioned it first."  So as he stated he didn't recall who

11     it was in that conversation who first mentioned these two locations as

12     possible execution sites, I was reading back this answer to try to

13     refresh his memory of who it was who first mentioned them, which is

14     contained in the section I'm reading from 2003.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid that I have to reread it in order to

16     fully -- let me see.  My LiveNote is causing me some problems but I'm

17     there now.  Let me see.  If you just give me a few seconds to read it.

18             Yes.  I missed that.  I have to apologise for that.  But now

19     let's see what you did put to him as a quote.

20             Yes, you're asking the same question, you're not refreshing his

21     memory at this moment yet.  You tried again, and then after that I take

22     it that you would -- I don't know what follows in the transcript so

23     I can't tell you whether --

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I can just make a quick proffer, Your Honour.  In

25     this portion of the transcript from 2003, the witness was asked who first

Page 11826

 1     mentioned these two locations as possible locations for execution, and

 2     then he gave an answer which answers the question I was trying to refresh

 3     his recollection, and I already read out his answer actually at page 57,

 4     line 10.  Where he had said that in that prior case that he mentioned

 5     both locations.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see, then.  I am not -- I must admit -- you

 7     said 57, line -- yes.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's a quote there, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a quote there.  Yes.  Then that is refreshing

10     the memory of the witness.  That is okay.  I missed that.  I apologise

11     for that.  I'm not at my best at this very moment because I had forgotten

12     something else as well.  That is to inform the parties that Judge Fluegge

13     is for urgent Tribunal reasons unable to continue to sit but only for

14     this last hour of today, and that Judge Moloto and I have considered

15     whether it would be in the interests of justice to continue to hear this

16     case and we decided it was.  That's the reason why there are two Judges.

17     That's not my best performance, Mr. Nicholls, neither the intervention in

18     the last one nor the 15 bis.  I'll try to improve my performance.

19             Please proceed, the objection is denied, Mr. Petrusic.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, it's been a while since I read out this portion to

22     try to refresh your recollection, but in short, what I read out, in

23     Blagojevic, when you were asked who brought up these two locations as

24     possible locations for execution, you answered:

25             "A.  I mentioned both locations," but let me read the complete

Page 11827

 1     answer in fairness, "but in view of the way in which they reacted, my

 2     conclusion was that they already knew, that is, that they both knew them

 3     already, knew about both locations."

 4             So having heard that, your testimony from ten years ago,

 5     actually, does that help you remember who first mentioned Sase mine and

 6     Ciglana?

 7        A.   My answer is as follows:  We were discussing those places, and

 8     I said that in my first testimony in the Blagojevic case, and in all

 9     subsequent evidence.  I believe that it was irrelevant.  All three of us

10     discussed the locations for executions.  If I said that it was me

11     ten years ago, which I truly do not recall anymore, and I can't quote

12     myself, but if I did say at the time, ten years ago, that I brought it

13     up, I don't have a problem with acknowledging or accepting that.

14     However, all three of us were discussing the locations.  So I see nothing

15     controversial in accepting this as something that I did say.

16        Q.   And just to be clear, where this conversation took place, where

17     was it in relation to the Hotel Fontana, the conversation between you,

18     Mr. Popovic and Mr. Kosoric?

19        A.   That conversation was in front of the Fontana Hotel, in front of

20     the entrance.  It was a conversation, but it was not a meeting.  It

21     happened before the meeting, and had this conversation of between five

22     and ten minutes, but I don't recall it very well.  The conversation took

23     place before the meeting scheduled for 10.00 on the 12th of July.  It was

24     just before the meeting.

25        Q.   Now, did you attend the third Hotel Fontana meeting in the sense

Page 11828

 1     of were you present during the meeting?

 2        A.   If you mean whether I was physically present in the Fontana

 3     Hotel, I was not present in the area where the meeting took place.

 4     Throughout that time, I was in front of the hotel at the reception, and

 5     in that area, making sure that the security measures that were undertaken

 6     for the meeting were in place.  I did see, though, all those who came and

 7     entered the hotel to attend the meeting.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  That's clear, then.  What happened after the meeting?

 9     What were your next duties?  What did you do next?

10        A.   Following the meeting, the participants came out, including

11     Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.  He told me that the next thing that had to be

12     done, the next task, for all of us, including myself, was to work on

13     evacuation - I called it forcible transfer - of the population to

14     Muslim-held territory.  Of course, the people from Potocari.  That's what

15     I'm referring to.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And then where did you go?  Did you go to Potocari?

17        A.   For a while, I stayed in front of the Fontana Hotel.  Perhaps

18     some half an hour later, I saw two or three DutchBat officers arrive.

19     I talked to them in front of the Fontana, and Petar Uscumlic and Kosoric

20     were present as well.  They were interested in buses.  In front of the

21     Fontana Hotel, there was Colonel Acamovic at the time.  I think

22     Colonel Krsmanovic was there too.  They were from the logistics of the

23     Drina Corps.  I told them to discuss it with them to obtain all

24     information regarding transport and the arrival of buses.  After that,

25     I went to Potocari.

Page 11829

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I seek on two points of clarification, Mr. Nicholls,

 2     the first is was about who mentioned the sites, the suggested sites of

 3     execution first.  Mr. Petrusic, I'm especially addressing you.  The

 4     witness more or less said, If I said this in one of the previous cases,

 5     then he says, I do not challenge that, I accept that.  Now, of course we

 6     haven't seen the transcript.  Is there any challenge on the Defence side

 7     on the accuracy of the quote given by Mr. Nicholls?  Because that is

 8     relevant for the appreciation of the evidence of the witness.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC:  [Interpretation] The Defence will not question the

10     quote from page 1677 from 2003 in the Blagojevic case.  We do not dispute

11     that it is what the witness said.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's clear.  Then I have another

13     question for you, Witness.  You said that on from a certain moment, that

14     the work to be done was evacuation, and you said, "I called it forcible

15     transfer of the population."  Which I understand to mean that they were

16     not free to choose but that they had to leave.  Is that what you intended

17     when you said, "I called it forcible transfer"?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an explanation for what

19     I said and it is as follows:  If we look at it from the legal point of

20     view, officially, and if we take into account what kind of choice was

21     presented to them, then in legal and formal terms they could choose

22     whether to stay or leave.

23             However, if we view it from a different angle, from the human

24     angle, I would say, in my view, I know the people.  I know the mentality

25     of the people.  None of the people in Potocari would voluntarily leave

Page 11830

 1     their house and property and everything they had in their lives and say,

 2     "Well, now I will voluntarily go to Kladanj to be a refugee, leaving

 3     behind everything I have acquired in my lifetime."  From that point of

 4     view, as for the reason why they were leaving, why they were leaving

 5     their house, property and everything they owned, the reason was simply

 6     because after the operation, after everything that took place, it was

 7     their assessment that remaining there would be unsafe.  They believed it

 8     wouldn't be safe to go on living there in the circumstances created after

 9     the fall of Srebrenica.  That is why I believe, I think, that none of

10     those people, hosts, left Potocari and Srebrenica because they liked to

11     go.  They left because they were forced to.  The issue was that of safety

12     and existence, and further action, because that was the very end of the

13     operation, the end of the war in that area.  That is why I called it

14     forcible transfer of civilians.

15             Of course, it is my opinion.  None of the things I mentioned, as

16     security and safety aspects, could be guaranteed to them by anyone.  You

17     could tell them, yes, we will guarantee this or that, and then you

18     choose, but in practice, I claim that could not be provided, especially

19     in the moments of the enclave's fall, when it was taken.  That is why,

20     and I could explain it in different ways, but this is the basic thing why

21     I consider it to be a forcible transfer of the population from their

22     hearths, from the -- to another part of the country which is where they

23     felt safer and which was at the time controlled by Muslims.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my question.  You may proceed,

25     Mr. Nicholls.

Page 11831

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you, again, just going through the

 3     chronology, after this third Hotel Fontana meeting, you talked about

 4     staying there for about half an hour.  Where did you go next, what did

 5     you do?

 6        A.   After that, I went to Potocari.

 7        Q.   And could you just tell us, as best as you can, when -- well,

 8     first of all, approximately what time did you get to Potocari,

 9     approximate, on the 12th?

10        A.   What I recall is, I think twice or thrice I was in Potocari

11     before the transport began but I think it was sometime after 12.00, that

12     was the first time I went to Potocari.

13        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us first which -- personnel from which units

14     of the VRS or MUP did you see present in Potocari when you went there?

15        A.   I'll tell you one thing, which I believe is important, regarding

16     the units.  Before I went to Potocari, and before Colonel Jankovic told

17     me that assistance had to be provided during the evacuation or the

18     forcible transfer, I asked him what kind of units were engaged and what

19     needed to be done.  He literally told me that there are no problems in

20     that area, that the units in charge of the evacuation from Potocari had

21     already been assigned their tasks and that some of those units with their

22     commanders were already in Potocari.

23             I can enumerate more or less the units engaged up there.  I'll

24     start with my brigade.  Part of the Bratunac Brigade military police was

25     engaged.  Then there was a unit which carried out an attack from the area

Page 11832

 1     of Pribicevac.  It arrived around that time in the area of Potocari.

 2     Next, parts of my 2nd Infantry Battalion were engaged.  The Wolves from

 3     the Drina were there.  They were members of the Zvornik Brigade.  There

 4     were different kinds of police units.  For example, members of the public

 5     security station from Bratunac, then members of the special brigade of

 6     the MUP of Republika Srpska.  There was a company, a police company, of

 7     the PJP.  And there was a unit, I don't know what its name was, though,

 8     but they all had police dogs with them.  I think, or actually I'm sure,

 9     that there were parts of the police force from the 65th Protection

10     Regiment from Nova Kasaba, and I think there were individuals or a group

11     from the 10th Sabotage Detachment, which is a unit of the Main Staff of

12     the VRS.  I don't think I have omitted anyone.  Sorry, there were also

13     parts of the military police from the MP Battalion of the Drina Corps.  I

14     don't think I forgot anyone.  Those were the forces which at that moment

15     were in Potocari.

16        Q.   Thank you very much for that detailed answer.  Now, in the same

17     vein, could you tell me who you observed in Potocari -- are you okay?

18        A.   Am I okay?  Yes, I am.  I was listening to you.

19        Q.   Which officers, if any, did you see from the Main Staff in

20     Potocari when you were there?

21        A.   I will be precise.  It was perhaps not on the first occasion, but

22     I did tell you I was in Potocari a few times.  And what I believe is

23     important is to say that I was there at the moment when evacuation began.

24     Or the forcible transfer.  On that occasion, I saw General Ratko Mladic

25     in Potocari and I saw quite a number of officers from the brigades which

Page 11833

 1     were engaged in the attack.  I saw Ljubisa Borovcanin, who was deputy

 2     commander of the special brigade, as well as different security organs,

 3     and officers, members of the State Security Service and so on and so

 4     forth.  I saw many people present.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let me just ask some names then.  Did you see Colonel

 6     Jankovic in Potocari?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  He was there countless times.

 8        Q.   And did you see anybody from Drina Corps intelligence and

 9     security?

10        A.   There was Popovic and Kosoric, and from the Drina Corps there was

11     Acamovic, Krsmanovic, so the first two -- the two are from the

12     intelligence department and the other two were assistant commander for

13     the logistics and the head of the traffic service.  I saw them in

14     Potocari.

15        Q.   All right.  And can you tell us what you saw happening to the

16     civilian population in Potocari when you were there, regarding the men,

17     the women and the children, how they were treated and what happened to

18     them, if you could describe what you saw?

19        A.   At the very beginning of evacuation, in the area between where

20     the civilians were on one side and the area where they were supposed to

21     go, where the buses had arrived, there was a ribbon placed there.  It was

22     a kind of delineation mark where the civilians were.  Order was kept by

23     members of DutchBat, the police and the forces which happened to be there

24     at the time.  The first convoy, the first getting on board, occurred

25     without any separation.  Men were not separated from women and children.

Page 11834

 1     They all simply went as they were directed.  From one side, from the

 2     direction of Bratunac, on the right-hand side, there was a passage, a

 3     free passage, which could be used by the people going to the buses to get

 4     on.  At first, it resembled a normal process of having them transported.

 5     At some point, however, there was general commotion and people shoving

 6     and everything was stopped.  After that, separations occurred, a

 7     selection.  What I do know is that the reason why it was ordered at first

 8     was that the women and children should apparently be -- have priority and

 9     then the men would be let through later.  And that's when the selection,

10     the separation of men from women and children, took place.  The men were

11     taken on one side and the children and women to the buses.  Then the men

12     who were separated were escorted by the police or soldiers who were there

13     to the nearby buildings, houses, where they were placed.

14             What I could see, and it was also the first signal which

15     indicated to me that something was wrong, was the way the people

16     separating them were treating them like.  They first of all took all of

17     their personal belongings, creating an enormous pile of plastic bags and

18     everything they carried, and then they took them there.  They insulted

19     them, maltreated them, hit them, spat on them.  They said things to them.

20     That's what I could see in that area while I was there.

21        Q.   Just to be clear, when you say these persons who were separated

22     and had their belongings taken away and were hit and spat, is that

23     referring to Muslim men, what happened to the men who were separated and

24     then taken to houses?

25        A.   Yes.  I'm talking about them.

Page 11835

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 19562, please.

 2             Now, this is a document dated 12 July.  It's got 1730 hours at

 3     the top on the left, very urgent, and it says "Drina Corps IKM Bratunac."

 4             If we go to page 2 of the English, please, all right, there we

 5     can see paragraph 3, and to save time I won't read the whole paragraph

 6     out.  It talks about the numbers of women and children and the elderly

 7     and the sick, how many people have been evacuated so far.  But the last

 8     sentence says:

 9             "We are separating men from 17 to 60 years of age and we are not

10     transporting them."

11             Sorry, that's the penultimate sentence.  Then:

12             "We have about 70 of them so far, and the security organs and the

13     DB," state security, CLSS has added, "are working with them."

14             And it's from Lieutenant Colonel Popovic.

15        Q.   How does that last couple sentences in Popovic's report, how does

16     that fit with what you saw and what you told us?  Is what he's saying

17     here accurate?

18        A.   All right.  You directed me to this third paragraph and what it

19     says here, mostly, was my estimate as well, and that of Colonel Jankovic,

20     regarding the number of these people, 30 to 35, to 40.000 people.  These

21     are the estimates.  And I agree this is what our estimate was as well.

22             As for what it says in the last sentence, these are men, those

23     who happened to be among the civilians in Potocari, and at this point of

24     time he's reporting about how many of them were captured and placed in

25     the building or facility that I mentioned a little bit earlier.

Page 11836

 1        Q.   And when he says about 70 of them so far, does that seem right

 2     based on your experience or does it seem high or low or about right?

 3        A.   I'm not sure what the number is based on here, but I cannot

 4     debate what he's saying here.  What I know is what I wrote in my report,

 5     and what my estimate was, and that is that after that first day, between

 6     350 and 400 men were separated and then they were transferred to these

 7     facilities.  This is after the first day.  The first day of the transport

 8     was on 12 July.

 9             After the second day, there was a slightly smaller number than

10     the first day, but it is my estimate and that of Colonel Jankovic, based

11     on what we saw and knew, is that approximately, during those two days,

12     about 600 to 650 to 700 men were separated.  These were all estimates.

13     We didn't count them, take their names, but these are estimates based on

14     what we saw.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, Your Honour?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19562 receives number P1510,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P1510 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:

21        Q.   Now, you said that on the -- I don't have it in front of me, but

22     words to the effect, just a minute ago, that on the first convoy out

23     there was no separation and that men were able to get on it, that convoy.

24     Do you recall whether that convoy, with men on it, was filmed or not?

25        A.   What I saw then, and then later, over the public information

Page 11837

 1     media, is that the first convoy, the first departure, and the

 2     conversation and interviews with certain officers in Potocari was later

 3     broadcast by the press service of the Drina Corps command.

 4        Q.   Yes.  And you've testified about this before, but based on being

 5     there, being an intel and security officer, what was the purpose of

 6     filming those men getting on the first convoy?

 7        A.   That act in itself, right from the start, was something that

 8     nobody knew where that would go, what would happen.  What I know is that

 9     after that convoy, there were no more men in the buses, and I know that

10     later the filming, the photographing, was used as something indicating

11     that nothing unusual or bad happened, but that everything proceeded

12     properly.  So then and now, my conclusion is that that filming or

13     photographing was misused and used for propaganda purposes.

14        Q.   Now, when these men, Muslim men, were separated in Potocari and

15     put in these houses, captured, as you said a minute ago, did you see any

16     screening process?  Was there any screening, checking of these men to see

17     if they were war criminals?  Did any of the men leave the house and then

18     be allowed to get on convoys?  In other words, was there any screening

19     whatsoever of the men you saw being separated?

20        A.   No.  What I know, as an intelligence security organ, is that in

21     such operation, military triage is a militarily legitimate act.  On the

22     basis of indicia and prior information, you would perform regular

23     military triage.  This is not something that was done.  Perhaps somebody

24     else knows but I don't know of any cases that somebody was questioned,

25     listed and then checked or vetted and then released.  I know two

Page 11838

 1     individual cases.  I know of a Muslim deputy who was handed over to the

 2     state security and I know of one wounded person taken over by the State

 3     Security Service.  Those are the two cases that I know of.  In Potocari,

 4     there was no military triage and there were none who were returned to

 5     join their family after their -- they were questioned.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have, very quickly, 65 ter 04067.

 8     While it's coming up, this is a document dated 13 July 1995.  It's an RDB

 9     document, state security.  It's to the deputy of -- Minister of the

10     Interior personally to the head of the RS MUP Bijeljina.  We don't need

11     to go to the second page but there it shows that it's signed by RDB head

12     Dragan Kijac or, rather, type-signed.

13        Q.   If we look at the first paragraph, Mr. Nikolic, it talks about

14     captures of Muslim soldiers, which I'm not going to get into now, but at

15     the bottom of that first paragraph, it states that:

16             "The operation is continuing and the movement of the Muslim

17     column," which we will talk about later, "has been confirmed many times

18     in interviews with prisoners."

19             And then a little further on it says:

20             "Igban Mustafic, a former SDA deputy in the former BH Assembly

21     and a great opponent of Naser Oric, was among the prisoners and can, with

22     the necessary preparation, be used well in the media."

23             And the question is:  Is that man listed here, Mr. Mustafic, is

24     this the incident you are referring to when you said that a prisoner was

25     taken over by state security?

Page 11839

 1        A.   Yes, I talked about Ibran Mustafic specifically.  Before the war,

 2     in the first multi-party elections, he was a deputy in the Assembly of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I know that Zlatan Celanovic also went.  They called

 4     that processing, meaning that he questioned Ibran Mustafic regarding the

 5     activities there.  There is another person, I think that he was wounded,

 6     his name was Halilovic, for whom there were indications that he had

 7     committed war crimes.  He was separated, taken to Zvornik, and processed

 8     by the MUP, but I don't know the outcome.  I don't know what happened to

 9     him.  In any event, I know of these two cases.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, may I tender this document?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04067 receives number P1511,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P1511 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

17        Q.   All right.  Can you just round off the 12th of July for us?

18     Where did you go after your final point of time in Potocari?  What did

19     you do that night?

20        A.   At the beginning of my testimony, I already said that I was the

21     duty operations officer on the night of the 12th and 13th of July.  A

22     number of times, depending on the need, I went to Potocari and I went

23     back.  I spent some of the time in the operations room and a part of the

24     time in Potocari.  When that day was over, I went to the operations room

25     or centre and I was on duty that night, which means that I was in the

Page 11840

 1     operations room until 3.00 a.m.  Before I went to sleep, after I came

 2     back to the operations room, I informed my commander about all the

 3     activities and I wrote a report about all intelligence information that I

 4     had at my disposal that day.  I also sent that to the Drina Corps

 5     command.  After midnight, sometime around 3.00 in the morning,

 6     Mirko Jankovic came, who was my deputy, and he relieved me of duty.  He

 7     stayed in the duty operations room and I went to sleep.  And I slept

 8     perhaps for two or three hours.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, is it 2.15 we go to?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  2.15.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, sorry.

13        Q.   All right.  Then let's continue now just with the chronology,

14     sir.  13 July, if you could tell us, I think you went to Potocari that

15     day again.  I don't think my friends mind me leading that way.  Can you

16     tell us what happened on the morning of 13 July when you got up and what

17     you did before going to Potocari?

18        A.   I've already said, this was already the 13th of July, at 3.00

19     I went to sleep and I slept.  And then, if I remember correctly, at about

20     7 a.m. I returned to the Bratunac Brigade command.  I came to the duty

21     operations room, and I think that I just carried out all the formalities

22     regarding the handover of duty.  I think I also wrote in something in the

23     duty operations logbook.  These are just regular activities.  And then of

24     course I saw my commander, of course, Vidoje Blagojevic.  And then after

25     that I was simply told that, on the 13th, the activities started on the

Page 11841

 1     12th in Potocari would continue and that my first assignment would be to

 2     go to Potocari and to see what was happening there.

 3             Of course, I went to Potocari and saw what was happening in

 4     Potocari.  The evacuation was already underway, the buses started

 5     arriving.  I did not walk around, but I got in touch with Dusko Jevic on

 6     the 13th and I told him then, if he was in radio contact with units

 7     engaged on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, he should convey the

 8     information to them that those who were captured in that area should be

 9     transferred to the detention facility in Baljkovica [as interpreted], and

10     then I told him to move some 50 or 100 metres away from where he was

11     working to a broader -- a wider area.  On the 13th, the evacuation from

12     Potocari continued.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you there.  Let me just ask you, the

14     transcript says, when you spoke to Dusko Jevic you said that captured

15     prisoners should be transferred to a detention facility in Baljkovica.

16     You testified before they should be transferred to Bratunac.  Can you

17     just check that transcript for us if that's the right -- if what we see

18     there is right?

19        A.   No, no, perhaps I made a slip.  I never said Baljkovic or

20     Baljkovica.  I said that the prisoners should be transferred to the

21     detention facilities in Bratunac.  These were the facilities allocated

22     for that purpose on the 12th.  I said if they were in contact with the

23     forces engaged in that direction, I said that all those detained should

24     be transferred to the facilities in Bratunac.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 11842

 1             We only have five minutes left.  If you could just tell the

 2     Trial Chamber quickly, what information did you have at the 13th -- on

 3     the 13th of July, when you were speaking with Mr. Dusko Jevic about the

 4     movement of the Muslim column through the forest?

 5        A.   Already on the 12th, in the afternoon, and to a good part on the

 6     13th, we, or, rather, I had information about the movement of an armed

 7     column of Muslims from two sectors, the sector of Jaglici towards

 8     Konjevic Polje, Cerska and farther, and from the Susnjari sector also

 9     towards Konjevic Polje and farther.  Cerska and farther.  Also, on the

10     13th already we had information from the neighbouring unit, from the

11     Milici Brigade, that also in the area of responsibility of their brigade

12     there were already captured Muslims or those who had surrendered.  And

13     also on the 13th already, on the mentioned roads, I had information that

14     there was sporadic fighting already, there was shooting, there were

15     woundings, and one policeman died in the Sandici sector.  And I had

16     information that in that area, along that axis, there were prisoners and

17     there were already groups surrendering to the Serbian side.  This is the

18     most general type of information that I had at my disposal.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And now we talked about -- you explained how men were

20     separated in Potocari and then brought to Bratunac.  Muslim men who were

21     captured or surrendered along this Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road, were

22     they treated the same or any differently from the men who had been

23     separated in Potocari?

24        A.   What I saw, and I did see captured individuals on that road,

25     I saw individuals, groups, and large groups that were captured on that

Page 11843

 1     sector, and their status of prisoners was the same as in Potocari.  They

 2     were searched, their items were put to the side, their valuables were

 3     confiscated.  And of course, after that, they were detained in the

 4     temporary facilities in Konjevic Polje where the 5th Engineering

 5     Battalion of the Drina Corps was billeted, and then in the school.  And

 6     then after that, in the same way as these others, they were transported

 7     in buses to Bratunac.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  This would be a good time for me, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Judge Moloto has one question for you.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Nikolic, at page 74, lines 15 to 17, you said:

13             "I stayed if --" and I suspect you wanted to say "I said."  "I

14     stayed if they were in contact with the forces engaged in that direction,

15     I said all those detained should be transferred to the facilities in

16     Bratunac."

17             Just two questions.

18             Do you know whether they were indeed transferred to the

19     facilities in Bratunac?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were they?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And to which facilities in Bratunac?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the facilities of the

25     Vuk Karadzic elementary school, the sports hall of the Vuk Karadzic

Page 11844

 1     elementary school, the hangar, and one old school of the Djuro Pucar

 2     Stari high school centre, until they were full.  After that, those who

 3     were transferred were held in buses and trucks that they had been brought

 4     in and they were guarded by the police forces, military, and, in the end,

 5     by civilians who were engaged to do this later.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then, Mr. Nikolic --

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just one transcript correction I've been reminded

11     of.  At page 6, line 7, this is a minor point --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 6, line 7.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, it says that Mr. Nikolic pleaded guilty in

14     1993, it should be 2003.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that may be obvious and is hereby corrected.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Nikolic, we will adjourn for the day.

18     Your testimony will not be resumed tomorrow but only at the beginning of

19     next week.  Meanwhile, you should not speak with anyone about your

20     testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or testimony

21     still to be given.  And I instruct you to refrain from doing that.  Not

22     to speak, not to communicate, any other way.  If that is clear to you,

23     the witness can be escorted out of the courtroom.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I am aware of

25     all my obligations.

Page 11845

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, I see that you're on your feet.  If

 3     you would like to raise the matter I'll address now, then let's see what

 4     happens.  I do understand and I've seen that a new translation has been

 5     uploaded for P1509 MFI'd.  That new translation, Mr. Lukic, no illegible

 6     portions are found there anymore, but the explanation of Turks as

 7     derogatory for Bosnian Muslims remains.  Now, the Chamber has considered

 8     your objection against that to be admitted and rejects that, unless you

 9     would want to say anything further on it.

10             MR. LUKIC:  We will raise this issue in one general motion where

11     we will ask for all those interpretations to be redacted.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let me say the following.  I give you the

13     reasons why the Chamber rejects your objection at this moment.  A literal

14     translation often does not bring the real --

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's not translation at all.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Lukic.  I was about to give the

17     reasons.  A literal translation of a word often does not give the real

18     meaning of that word in the context.  For example, here, if you would

19     translate it by Turkish or Turks, then the ordinary understanding of that

20     word is a person of Turkish nationality or origin, whereas in this

21     context, it has a different meaning.  It is common that where a literal

22     translation is not -- does not -- is not an accurate translation, then

23     CLSS will usually provide a very short explanation for the meaning of

24     that word in the given context.  That is what happens here.

25             The appropriate way of dealing with it would be to challenge the

Page 11846

 1     explanation.  So if you say "Turks" is not in this context a derogatory

 2     word for Bosnian Muslims, then we could discuss that, but it is on this

 3     basis that a literal translation would not do and this explanation is, as

 4     the Chamber is aware of, is quite commonly used, that we admit into

 5     evidence P1509.  But first, Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to

 6     replace the English translation of this document by the newly uploaded

 7     translation, doc ID 01776571 ET and P1509 is admitted into evidence.  We

 8     are looking forward to any further submissions on the general system,

 9     Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  And I'm sure that we have in previous cases dealt

11     with the same issue in a different way.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We will then see that and we will seriously of

13     course pay attention to it.  We adjourn for the day and we will resume

14     tomorrow, Friday, the 31st of May, 2013, in this same courtroom, III, at

15     9.30 in the morning.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of May,

18                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.