Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12111

 1                           Wednesday, 5 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there are no preliminaries.

12     Therefore, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.  Please be seated.

16     Mr. Nikolic, I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the

17     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.  We

18     hope to conclude your testimony today.  Mr. Petrusic will now continue

19     his cross-examination.

20             Mr. Petrusic.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I

22     have taken your suggestions into account so that today there will be no

23     repetitive questions that have already been heard in this courtroom, and

24     I hope that we will proceed much faster.

25                           WITNESS:  MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]

Page 12112

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, we're still dealing with the

 4     13th of July.  What I would like to ask you is whether you received and

 5     from whom you received information that General Mladic would pass along

 6     that route from Konjevic Polje -- from Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje

 7     and on, on the 13th of July, and that in general he was going to leave

 8     the Bratunac area.

 9        A.   During the examination-in-chief, I already said that the

10     information that General Mladic was going to go along that route on that

11     day came from the military police commander, Mirko Jankovic.

12        Q.   But you don't have reliable information from where Mirko Jankovic

13     got this information?

14        A.   I don't know.  There was probably an order for a section of the

15     Bratunac Brigade Military Police to be engaged, so the person who issued

16     the order probably knows where that information came from.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, the beginning of your answer, "I don't

18     know," is good enough.  What probably may have been the case is not

19     relevant.  You don't know.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, could General Mladic have passed and gone towards

24     Milici or towards Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka, his final destination,

25     along a different route without passing through Sandici and

Page 12113

 1     Konjevic Polje?

 2        A.   Yes, he could have.

 3        Q.   Was it possible to expect in view of the situation on the road

 4     and the general situation in the Bratunac and Konjevic Polje and

 5     Nova Kasaba area with a large number of armed Muslims who were

 6     transferring through that locality, so would it be reasonable to expect

 7     that General Mladic, his security, and his security organ, felt that it

 8     would have been safer to take a different route?

 9        A.   Well, this is a hypothetical question.  It's possible, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, there are five or six assumptions in

11     your question which have not been verified first.  And then whether it's

12     possible, whether it's reasonable to expect asks for a judgement.  So

13     it's both hypothetical and there are four or five unexplained

14     assumptions, and it is asking for opinion.  That is not the type of

15     questions that assist the Chamber.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.  I will

17     finish that particular topic.

18             Can we look at document 65 ter 1D01002 in e-court, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, while we're waiting for the document, do you know

20     who Mladen Blagojevic is?  Do you remember?  A lot of time has passed

21     since then, of course.

22        A.   If I remember very well, I think this is a policeman in the

23     Bratunac Brigade Military Police Platoon.

24        Q.   And do you know Milovan Mitrovic?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 12114

 1        Q.   And was he also --

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  E-court on our left screens is not functioning well.

 4     We could, of course, meanwhile use our right screens but ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's no solution for the witness.

 7             Witness, can you see the document, which should be witness

 8     statement Mladen Blagojevic.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes I can see it.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Our e-court is not

11     working.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it.  Yes.  And the statement

13     is my language that I understand.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that when we refer or read from the

15     document that we do it very, very slowly and that everyone uses his other

16     screen, which you can by choosing the right buttons --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters only have one screen and it's

18     not working.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was the reason why I asked that

20     everything would be read very slowly because I was aware that it was not

21     a solution for the interpreters.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, let me continue.  You also know Milovan Mitrovic; is

24     that right?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 12115

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we very slowly proceed and use as

 2     much as we can our right screens but with full understanding for the

 3     interpreters having no screen on which they can choose.

 4             Slowly, therefore, Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.  And meanwhile,

 5     within two or three minutes I do understand the system will function

 6     again.

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   What about Slobodan Mijatovic, do you know him?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Borivoje Jakovljevic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Pero Andric?

13        A.   Yes, I know him.

14        Q.   And would you agree that this paragraph, paragraph 5 in the B/C/S

15     version, and paragraph 4 in the English version, names soldiers who

16     belong to the Bratunac Brigade Military Police?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  I already said that these were members of the Bratunac

18     Brigade Military Police Platoon.

19        Q.   In the next paragraph of the statement, the witness states that

20     on the 13th of July, seven or eight soldiers of the military police of

21     the Bratunac Brigade --

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now we don't have a

23     transcript.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We do, but is there ...

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can follow the

Page 12116

 1     right monitor and turn the transcript on there but ...

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The transcript in e-court is not functioning at

 3     the moment but in LiveNote it's going on.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Too many problems at this moment on too many

 6     screens.

 7             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We will take

 8     a short break of most likely no more than five minutes to -- to restart

 9     all systems.

10             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Break taken at 9.48 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness with escorted into the courtroom.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Technical problems being resolved, Mr. Petrusic, you

17     may proceed.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, did you know that members of the military police, in

20     the morning on the 13th of July, were driving General Mladic to the

21     Suceska area to meet with units under the command of Milan Jolovic,

22     Legenda?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you switch on the microphone.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me if I knew that members

Page 12117

 1     of the military police were driving General Mladic.  No, they were not

 2     driving him.  They were in the escort of General Mladic.

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And did you know that in the morning of the 13th of July, they

 5     were in the escort of General Mladic in the Suceska area?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was saying -- I was saying, the witness has just

 7     told you the answer to the question you are just putting to him.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, would you agree with me that this part of the

10     statement is correct, that after Sandici, in the escort, they came to

11     Konjevic Polje?  This is paragraph 3 in the Serbian version and

12     paragraph 2 in the English version on page 2.

13        A.   I can see the first page here.

14        Q.   It's the second page.

15        A.   Very well.  And could you please tell me which paragraph it is?

16        Q.   In the second -- in the Serbian version, it's paragraph 3, and in

17     the English version, it's paragraph 2.

18        A.   I have to reply to the previous question, to one part of the

19     previous question because I did not give you an answer to that.  So I

20     don't agree with that and I did not have information that General Mladic,

21     on the 13th, was in Suceska.  I know and I have information, I have a

22     report by the military police commander, that on the 13th, General Mladic

23     was in Srebrenica at the municipal building or in the municipality of

24     Srebrenica, that he toured the Orthodox church, and that he spoke with

25     some people from the Srebrenica municipality, and then after that

Page 12118

 1     conversation he returned to Bratunac.  So there is no reason, it's not

 2     logical, and it wouldn't be true that any forces were in the Suceska area

 3     at that time.  The Wolves from the Drina were not in the Suceska sector

 4     on the 13th.  If you take the map, you can see.  I know that by heart.

 5     The Suceska sector has nothing to do with any of the axes of attack on

 6     Srebrenica.  It's the birthplace of Zulfo Tursunovic, a man who was

 7     suspected, he was a commander of a notorious brigade which also committed

 8     crimes against the Serbian population, and that is that sector.

 9             So Suceska in any way would have been the objective of the visit

10     by General Mladic.  This is what I know.

11        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, after the completion of combat operations --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to intervene.  No objection.  I just think

14     for the transcript, the last sentence of Mr. Nikolic's answer was -- in

15     the transcript:

16             "So Suceska in any way would have been the objective of the

17     visit ..."

18             It seems to me that there is something missing.  "Would have

19     been" or "would not have been."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Would not have been.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we are now discussing paragraph 4 in the Serbian

Page 12119

 1     version and paragraph 3 in the English.  Witness Blagojevic says here:

 2             "I am not sure whether General Mladic got out of his jeep, but I

 3     remember him shouting through the window or the open door at these

 4     policemen, who were obviously rather relaxed, and he criticised them for

 5     not doing anything, just sunbathing at all these check-points and

 6     stealing while the soldiers were dying for them.  At this intersection,

 7     there were no persons for whom I could have concluded that they were

 8     captured Muslims."

 9             Now, when this witness speaks about the interjunction, he's

10     referring to an interjunction in Konjevic Polje?

11             What is your comment on this?

12        A.   This is the first time that I am looking at this statement.  I

13     don't think it will be appropriate for me to comment upon it.  I would

14     have preferred if you had given me time to read it first and then ask me

15     to give comments about the whole statement and the veracity and the

16     strength of arguments of this statement.

17             Just like on page 1, this portion is absolutely untrue.  There is

18     absolutely no connection because I know exactly what was going on in that

19     period.  I know exactly which route General Mladic took on the morning of

20     the 13th until I saw him off from Konjevic Polje.  So I know exactly

21     where he was, with whom he was, where he had lunch, where he stopped.  He

22     stopped at Sandici.  He got out of his vehicle.  It is true that he

23     argued with the police, because that was an ongoing conflict, and he

24     criticised them for not doing their job properly.  That was a verbal

25     altercation.  There were insults traded, et cetera.

Page 12120

 1             So that was a conflict between the police and the army stemming

 2     from the relationship between General Mladic and President Karadzic

 3     because their relationship was not good.

 4        Q.   Mr. Nikolic --

 5        A.   Let me just tell you this:  I know exactly what occurred.  The

 6     stop was in Konjevic Polje and everything that I had explained before

 7     took place.  And of course there was another stop in Nova Kasaba.  This

 8     is a report I received from Mirko Jankovic and he in turn received a

 9     report from the policeman who escorted General Mladic to Han Pijesak.  If

10     you want to know what was really going on on that day, I still stand by

11     to what I said and I claim that that is correct and nothing more than

12     that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, it's totally unclear what you would

14     like to have comment on.  You read the whole of a paragraph.  Do you want

15     to know whether this witness has any recollection of Mr. Mladic

16     criticising the policemen, whether it's the right location he's talking

17     about, whether these were civilian policemen or not civilian policemen?

18     It's totally unclear what you seek to elicit from this witness.  Asking

19     for comment without any direction doesn't bring us any further.  So

20     please put focused questions to the witness.

21             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we're now going to move to paragraph 5 in the

23     Serbian version and paragraph 4 in English, and I'm going to quote it.

24             "I also state that on the occasion at the mentioned intersection

25     on the 13th of July, I can say with certainly that I did not see

Page 12121

 1     Momir Nikolic speaking to General Mladic."

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  I object to the form of the question, Your Honour.

 3     My understanding of the practice of this Tribunal, and I believe in this

 4     courtroom as well, although I haven't practiced in here, is that this

 5     type of allegation -- I know exactly where my friend is going.  He's now

 6     going to put it to Mr. Nikolic that he was lying, that this statement --

 7     that question needs to be put to the witness not by reading out a witness

 8     statement, but first to put it to the witness and then, if necessary, he

 9     can refer to the statement.  That's just what I'm used to.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, it's common practice in this Court.

11     I've emphasized quite a few things again and again, that before you put

12     to a witness what another witness said on a subject on which the witness

13     testifies, that you should first explore that and only then put that to

14     the witness that another witness said something different.  Could you

15     please keep that in mind.

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, my point of departure was

17     the fact that the witness already gave a statement about the encounter

18     with Mr. Mladic in Konjevic Polje and that he explained the way in which

19     this encounter occurred.  All I'm trying now is to put to him a statement

20     given by another witness, nothing more than that.  And in line with that

21     statement, I would like to hear his comments.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One of our problems, Mr. Petrusic, is that we do not

25     know exactly whether what the witness in the document says is exactly

Page 12122

 1     about the same location, about the same event, et cetera, so therefore

 2     you should explore that in some detail.  And a suggestion by the witness

 3     that he could read that statement perhaps during the next break and then

 4     tell -- tell us what -- where he thinks it's consistent or inconsistent

 5     with what he said and then briefly deal with that, might be a suggestion

 6     that should be adopted.

 7             But just to put bluntly before another statement and then to say

 8     well -- to suggest it's all the same, it's contradicting, et cetera, you

 9     should explore that in a systematic and organised way.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I have a

12     transcript as well -- but, okay, let's try it another way.

13        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you said that you are acquainted with

14     Borivoje Jakovljevic, that he was an MP, that he was part of

15     General Mladic's escort detail on the 13th of July.

16        A.   Half of your statement is true.  Half is not.  I said that I knew

17     Borivoje, that he was a member of the military police, but I did not say

18     that he was in Mladic's escort because I did not know by name the persons

19     that the military police commander assigned to escort him.  I wasn't

20     interested in that then and I'm still not interested to know who

21     specifically was there, to know their names.

22             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter document

23     1D1022.  Page 28 through 32 in e-court.  This is the Blagojevic case,

24     26th of May, 2004.

25        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this witness who appeared in the Blagojevic case

Page 12123

 1     said that he hadn't seen you in Konjevic Polje, and that he was escorting

 2     General Mladic and that they stopped at Konjevic Polje but that he did

 3     not see you there.  Do you refute the evidence given by this witness in

 4     the Blagojevic case?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, what is the question?  Is the

 6     question, could this witness tell us whether Mr. Jakovljevic saw him?  He

 7     can tell whether he saw Mr. Jakovljevic.  He says, "I don't know whether

 8     he was in the escort."  He has been quite clear on that.  How could you

 9     possibly know whether someone had seen you or not seen you.  What's

10     the -- could you explain to us how it is possible that this witness could

11     tell us?

12             And then if Mr. Jakovljevic didn't see Mr. Nikolic, there are

13     various explanations.  I think the witness could not help us with very

14     much.  Either he didn't look well, he was looking at a different

15     direction, he did not recognise Mr. Nikolic.  Whatever.  What's the --

16     please think about your questions and about the evidence you seek to

17     elicit.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   On that occasion when you had an encounter with General Mladic in

20     Konjevic Polje, did you recognise any of the soldiers who were in the

21     escorting vehicle?

22        A.   I really didn't pay attention to General Mladic's security detail

23     because there were quite a few of them.  My focus was on reporting to

24     General Mladic and I did it in a proper military manner.  I approached

25     him and I reported to him.  I wasn't looking around trying to identify

Page 12124

 1     either members of the police or other people who were around him, and

 2     there were many of them.  And I cannot say with certainty, although I

 3     know them all, that I specifically identified and noticed any of them.

 4     In other words, I did not pay attention to them.  I paid attention to

 5     General Mladic.

 6        Q.   Did they ever get out of the vehicle?

 7        A.   A large group, some dozen of them constituted his escort when he

 8     arrived at Konjevic Polje.

 9        Q.   Did they get out of the vehicle?

10        A.   Yes, they did.

11        Q.   And amongst them, you were unable to recognise your own military

12     policemen?

13        A.   I already gave you an answer to that question.  My attention was

14     focused on reporting.  I wasn't looking around.  You know how it's being

15     done.  I'm not looking around.  I am just looking at the General and I am

16     concentrated on reporting to him, and it never occurred to me to look

17     around in order to identify the persons escorting General Mladic.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D01006 from

19     65 ter list.

20        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, as you can see, this is a statement given by

21     Mile Petrovic that you spoke about in the past few days.  He was together

22     with Mirko Jankovic in an APC.

23             On page 3 in Serbian, line 7 from the bottom in the second

24     paragraph, and line 8 from the bottom of the page in the first paragraph

25     also in English.

Page 12125

 1             You can see that when Mile Petrovic was giving this statement at

 2     the police station in Bratunac on the 25th of August, 2003, and while he

 3     was describing this particular event, I'm going to paraphrase what he

 4     said, that he had gone and killed a number of Muslim men in order to

 5     revenge his brother.  And in that respect he says the following:

 6             "I can say that I read in the newspaper and heard from other

 7     citizens that they also read in the papers that Momir Nikolic accused me

 8     in his statement that during the ride in the armoured personnel carrier

 9     from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, I used a megaphone to call on Muslims to

10     surrender, that I killed a certain number of citizens of Muslim

11     nationality, and did other things such as singling out Muslims fit for

12     military service while they were being transported.  I say that this

13     gossip is untrue and that I did not do any of this, which can be

14     confirmed by Mirko Jankovic who was with me all the time."

15             Mr. Nikolic, do you still stand by your statement that you gave

16     here with regard to this incident?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Are you trying to say --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me -- what you read to us is that that witness

20     read something in a newspaper about what Mr. Nikolic would have said.  So

21     it is -- now my question, your follow-up question is -- I have

22     difficulties in relating that to what you just read to us.  Could you

23     clarify?  Because if you read something in the newspaper that Mr. A says

24     B, there are two matters to be verified:  First, whether Mr. A said

25     something, said B; and the second is whether B is true or not.  These are

Page 12126

 1     two separate questions.  Could you please keep that in mind and put the

 2     question in such a way that the Judges also understand what the link is

 3     to what you just read.

 4             Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, just to make sure I can see

 6     where the Defence is going.  They just read out a statement from the

 7     Blagojevic trial.  I don't have the witness's name in front of me.  And

 8     the assertion was:  This witness says you were not in Konjevic Polje and

 9     asserts that he did not see you in Konjevic Polje.  They have now moved

10     onto the statement, which apparently they are putting in for the truth,

11     from Mirko Jankovic, which we've just discussed, and this statement, the

12     English we have, says Mirko Jankovic says he was in Konjevic Polje at

13     that time with Momir Nikolic and that Momir Nikolic got out of the APC in

14     Konjevic Polje.

15             So what is their case?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, any answer to that?  If we are talking

17     about this statement.  First of all, we haven't read the whole of the

18     statement so we have difficulties to see the context of it.  I just

19     focused on the small portion you read about rumours in newspapers and

20     what everyone read in the newspapers.  Could you please tackle the

21     subject in an organised way, and first of all make clear to the Chamber,

22     and perhaps to the witness, what your case is as far as the presence of

23     Mr. Nikolic in -- in that location is.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In the part where I quoted

25     Mr. Nikolic's statement, I wanted to ask him what his comment is on

Page 12127

 1     Petrovic's position; i.e., that he did not commit those murders.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I can

 3     be of assistance.  I know what Mr. Petrusic is aiming for.  I am aware of

 4     this statement.  I read it.  I am even aware of the witness's evidence in

 5     one of the cases including mine.  He appeared here before this Tribunal

 6     before I was sentenced.

 7             Mile Petrovic in his evidence before this Tribunal did not deny

 8     the fact that he was on the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje.  He

 9     did not deny the fact that he was in the APC.  He was in two minds

10     whether to admit that he used a megaphone to invite people but there are

11     video-clips showing that clearly.  There is a video-clip clearly showing

12     that he was calling out from the white APC on the Sandici-Konjevic Polje

13     road.

14             One thing that Mile Petrovic did not admit - and I really never

15     expected him that he would - he didn't admit that, in Konjevic Polje,

16     once I told him to take away two imprisoned Muslims and to link them up

17     with a group that was already there.  He denied here that he had killed

18     them.  He denied that he had done that.  I did not expect him to admit.

19     However, he admitted everything else.  He admitted to the truth of

20     everything else.  He admitted that we received six Muslims on that road.

21     All those elements that I spoke about, he confirmed them all but the last

22     one; i.e., he never said that it was true that he had killed them.

23             This is what I know from both his evidence and his statement.  I

24     hope I have been of some assistance in that part.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, is it the position of the Defence that

Page 12128

 1     Mr. Nikolic was not at that point in time in Konjevic Polje or is it the

 2     position of the Defence that Mr. Nikolic was in Konjevic Polje?

 3             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The position of the Defence is

 4     that on the 13th of July, Mr. Nikolic was in the -- on the cross-roads at

 5     Konjevic Polje but that did he not meet with General Mladic that

 6     afternoon.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you earlier asked the witness whether he refuted

 8     a statement saying that, "I didn't see Mr. Nikolic in Konjevic Polje."

 9     What's the use of that if it is your position that he was in

10     Konjevic Polje?  It's a waste of time.  It's inconsistent.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up

15     65 ter 14717.

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this is an order for active combat dated

17     2nd of July, 1995.  It was issued by the command of Drina Corps.  On the

18     last page we will see that it was signed by Major-General

19     Milenko Zivanovic.

20             Mr. Nikolic, did you and when did you have an opportunity to see

21     this document before the beginning of the attack on Srebrenica?

22        A.   As far as I can remember, the commander of the Bratunac Brigade

23     showed this document to the command sometime one or perhaps two days

24     before the attack was launched.  Let me just see the date.  The

25     2nd of July.  It was at the earliest sometime between the 4th and the

Page 12129

 1     5th of July the Commander Blagojevic showed us this order.

 2        Q.   The entire command was present or at least its bigger part?

 3        A.   I believe that the command was present.  I am not sure that the

 4     battalion commanders were also there.  On that same day, there was

 5     another meeting which was also attended by the battalion commanders, so I

 6     can't be sure of that meeting but I know that the command was present.

 7        Q.   On page 4 in the Serbian version and on page 5 in the English

 8     version, you will see a paragraph which is relative to the intelligence

 9     security, and you will find it -- intelligence support, you will find it

10     under bullet point 10.  If we move on to the following page in the

11     Serbian version, you will see that it says in the third line that:

12             The security organs and the military police will identify the

13     collection sector for prisoners of war, the collection and providing

14     security for the prisoners of war and war booty.  In treating the

15     prisoners of war and the population, fully adhere to the

16     Geneva Conventions.

17             Do you see that paragraph?

18        A.   Yes, I can see that.

19        Q.   Did the security and intelligence organ of the Bratunac Brigade

20     have to work out in its order that part that refers to the intelligence

21     support?

22        A.   Your question doesn't make much sense in terms of its contents.

23     I want to help you.

24        Q.   Don't help me.

25        A.   I want to help you because I want to answer your question.

Page 12130

 1        Q.   Mr. Nikolic --

 2        A.   A security organ does not issue orders.  That's for one.  A

 3     security organ doesn't issue any orders on any of the issues, and if you

 4     are asking me whether I as a security organ contributed and helped the

 5     commander to draft his order on the use of the forces of the

 6     Bratunac Brigade, then we are talking about a different thing and I will

 7     answer.  But security organs never, ever issue any orders.  They don't

 8     write any orders.  They don't submit any orders to anybody on any of the

 9     issues.

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I did not ask you whether you were the one who

11     drafted orders.  I asked you whether you participated in the drafting of

12     bullet point 10, which refers to the intelligence support.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we now have one clear question:  Did you

14     participate in the drafting of bullet point 10?  That's the question.  Of

15     the document which is on your screen.  Did you or did you not?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I jump in for a moment and put a question to

19     the witness.

20             Mr. Petrusic read a part of this bullet point 10 to you,

21     referring to the Geneva Conventions, and you confirmed that you found

22     that sentence.  Is this sentence in the B/C/S version in handwriting or

23     is it typed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In all dealings with prisoners of

25     war and the civilian population abide by the Geneva Conventions."  This

Page 12131

 1     is typed up.  This is typed up.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put this question because in the English

 3     version we see that there is one sentence which is crossed out and behind

 4     that handwritten I read:

 5             "The sector for collecting war prisoners and war booty is the

 6     Pribicevac sector.  In all dealings with prisoners of war and the

 7     civilian population abide by the Geneva Conventions."

 8             The second part of this is not in handwriting where the

 9     Geneva Conventions is referred to.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there is a handwritten sentence

11     in superscript.  I'm going to read it:

12             [As read] "The sector for collecting prisoners of war and war

13     booty is the Pribicevac sector."

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's all in handwriting, correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, what I have just read out to

16     you.  That's in handwriting.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This is not clear from the

18     English translation.

19             Mr. Petrusic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock.  It is time

21     for a break.

22             Could we first have the witness escorted out of the courtroom.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, will you finish in the next session?

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, very quickly after the

Page 12132

 1     beginning of the next session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we take a break and we'll resume at five

 3     minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, we are still on the order issued by the Drina Corps

11     on the 2nd of July.  When you're looking at the B/C/S version and when

12     you're looking at the part that was added by hand, where it says that the

13     Pribicevac sector is where prisoners of war and war booty would be

14     collected, is this your handwriting?

15        A.   Mr. Petrusic, this handwriting looks like mine but I was not the

16     one who wrote this.  I did not make any corrections to this order.

17     However, it does look like the way I write.

18        Q.   So we will agree that this bullet point is relative to your

19     organ, the security and intelligence organ?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know who else may have been involved in that topic in the

22     command of the Bratunac Brigade?

23        A.   Besides the commander, I don't think that there would have been

24     anybody else.

25        Q.   Does this handwriting look like Commander Blagojevic's

Page 12133

 1     handwriting?

 2        A.   No, it does not.

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't the first question whether the handwriting was

 5     put on this document before or after it was issued?  Because what we see,

 6     if we look at the original, there is a version which is signed and which

 7     is stamped and there are various stamps on it.

 8             Therefore, my first question would be:  Has this handwriting be

 9     added after or is it part of the drafting of this document?  Do you have

10     any knowledge about that?  Because sometimes you would find at my desk a

11     document which is an official document, nevertheless, with my notes and

12     handwriting on it, which is then not part of that document but is part of

13     my version of the document with my annotations on it.  I wonder which of

14     the two is this document is.

15             If the witness could tell us.  Do you know whether this

16     handwriting is put on the document after it had been delivered, sent,

17     signed, or whether it was done before?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I wouldn't be able to

19     give a precise answer to that question.  From what I see before me, by

20     visual inspection, that is, what was written in the original was typed

21     up, and only based on that I can infer that what is here in handwriting -

22     and that is the sector for collecting prisoners of war and war booty is

23     the sector of Pribicevac - that was written subsequently.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole document is full of handwritten changes,

25     annotations, it's not only this part.  Last page, for example, even

Page 12134

 1     changes apparently times.  So if you don't know, then perhaps it's better

 2     to just tell us that you don't know.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I focused just on the part that you

 6     asked me about and my answer is:  I don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We do not even know, Mr. Petrusic, as far as

 8     matters stand now, on whether the handwritten comments, corrections,

 9     et cetera, whether they are from the same person or from different

10     persons, and added at the same time or at different times.  It is a --

11     still a puzzle, at least for me.

12             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to dwell upon that topic

13     with the witness.

14        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, if you look at the first page in this document, you

15     will see that it was sent to the Zvornik, Bratunac, and the

16     2nd Romanija Brigades, to the Birac Brigade, to the 1st Milici Brigade,

17     and to the 5th MAP.  You will agree with me that if this part was added

18     by hand before the document was dispatched to the units that I have just

19     read out to you, then this handwritten bit should appear on all those

20     documents, right?  Am I right in thinking that?

21        A.   I can answer in the affirmative but I wouldn't like to speculate.

22     I told you what I knew about that part that was corrected.  I don't know

23     who made the corrections.  I don't know when that was done on that page.

24     I saw two different handwritings of which I know nothing.  This is my

25     problem.  I can speculate and I agree with you on the question that you

Page 12135

 1     have just put to me, but I can't be certain because I don't know.

 2        Q.   You will agree with me, won't you, that on the last page it is

 3     quite clear that that document was received by the Bratunac Brigade?

 4        A.   Based on the stamp, I would say, yes, it was received by the

 5     Bratunac Brigade.

 6        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, do you know who Dragoslav Trisic was or is?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up

 9     65 ter 1D01007, e-court page 79.  This is the transcript of

10     Mr. Dragoslav Trisic's evidence in the Popovic case on the

11     20th of October, 2008.

12        Q.   To -- the question:

13             [As read] "Q.  Tell me, please, you identified this handwriting

14     in the upper margin as the handwriting of Captain Momir Nikolic; is that

15     the case?

16             "A.  Yes.

17             "Q.  You were personally there when he wrote this, right?

18             "A.  Well, I recognise his handwriting.

19             "Q.  Do you know when he wrote this?

20             "A.  Well, I suppose that he did it on the day when we received

21     the aforementioned document."

22             So let's stop there.  That was from the transcript.  What is your

23     position with regard to the statement provided by Mr. Trisic?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would object, Your Honour, because he's already

Page 12136

 1     answered question of whether it's his handwriting, and I -- based on the

 2     discussion we had earlier, I don't know if it's -- there is any point in

 3     him commenting on what or why Mr. Trisic testified this way.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness said it's not his handwriting although

 5     it has similarity.  That is what the witness told us.

 6             If you have any further questions to the witness, please put them

 7     to him, Mr. Petrusic.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into

 9     evidence, please?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Which document?

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter -- I apologise,

12     65 ter 14717, which is the Drina Corps order that we discussed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We saw 1D1006.  Okay.  Thank you.  It was my

14     mistake.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection to 14717, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And again I have not written it down.  Is that the

18     Drina Corps order, the six pages with the handwriting on it?

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 14717 receives number D302,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             One of the thoughts that came to my mind, not only looking at the

Page 12137

 1     handwritten portion but also at, for example, the -- striking through

 2     parts of the text which on the last page, which, by the way, doesn't

 3     appear clearly in the translation, that this may have been a document

 4     which was received and then was -- further work was done on it perhaps to

 5     convey the order to lower-level units.  That's a thought that came into

 6     my mind and which I want to share with the parties because if they have

 7     any comments on it, then I'd like to hear from them.  And it is

 8     especially that the change of times at the very end of the order could

 9     serve such a purpose.

10             I leave it to that.  But, of course, the Chamber has to

11     understand what this document is about.

12             Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at

14     65 ter 05803, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you recognise the document.  This is the order for

16     active combat operations issued by the 1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade on

17     the 5th of July, 1995.  On the last page you will see that it's signed by

18     Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic.

19             First I would like to ask you if this order came about as the

20     result of an order by the Drina Corps dated the 2nd of July?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And this order by the Bratunac Brigade command, was it drafted by

23     all the command organs?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Can you please tell me who provides the commander with estimates

Page 12138

 1     of enemy strength?

 2        A.   Intelligence organs.

 3        Q.   And that is you?

 4        A.   Of course.

 5        Q.   And in this case, did Commander Blagojevic ask you for an

 6     estimate on the enemy strength?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Now we're going to move to

 9     page 10 -- actually, page 4 in the Serbian version, paragraph 10, and

10     then in the English version it's page 5.  Item 5 [as interpreted] begins

11     with combat security and intelligence security.  Can we look at page 5 of

12     the B/C/S version, please.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's not item 5 but item 10 on page 5.

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Item 10 on page 5, yes, that is

15     correct.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Item 10 on page 5, not the other way around.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.

18     Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation.

19        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, this item 10, intelligence security, who proposes

20     that to the commander?

21        A.   The intelligence security organ.

22        Q.   And in this specific case that was done by you?

23        A.   It should have been me but I did not do it.

24        Q.   And can you please tell me who did?

25        A.   If the Court permits me, I would just like to clarify absolutely

Page 12139

 1     because I can see that we are struggling with both of the orders, so I

 2     would like to ask for three minutes to explain exactly what happened and

 3     then everything will be clear.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could try to do it in one minute, that would

 5     be appreciated.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best.

 7             When an order is written or a commander's decision, regardless of

 8     whether it's at the corps or brigade level -- anyway I'm going to speak

 9     now about the Bratunac Brigade --

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, for

11     interrupting the witness, and you did give him the time, but I do

12     apologise.  I would just like to ask you to stop the witness in as far as

13     his testimony could focus on some kind of expert evidence.  What I would

14     like to limit him to is just to say "yes" or "no" and say whether he took

15     part in the drafting of this item or not, and if he did not, then he

16     could say who drafted the -- that part, that item.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I am going

18     to talk about.  This is precisely what I am going to say.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do so.  I had not the feeling that any

20     expert evidence was coming up, but could you tell us who, then, drafted

21     this order?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The complete - the complete - order

23     for the use of the units of the Bratunac Brigade was written by the

24     commander of my brigade, Colonel Blagojevic.  This order is -- there are

25     two ways to write an order.  There are two ways to actually draft an

Page 12140

 1     order of this kind.  The first way is the regular procedure when the

 2     brigade commander, together with his assistants, sits in the office and

 3     on the basis of the Drina Corps commander's order prepares his own order

 4     for the engagement of his own units.  And then in this regular procedure,

 5     this is done when you have enough time at your disposal, then each

 6     assistant commander, as part of the commander's order that he would sign,

 7     gives his contribution.

 8             I as the intelligence organ would make my contribution.  That

 9     would be the first item of the order, that would be the data about the

10     enemy.  And then as part of that same order, I would also give two other

11     things to the commander and that would be the proposal by -- for

12     intelligence security protection or support and then the proposal for

13     security support.  I propose that to the commander and I also take part

14     in the writing of the order for the use of reconnaissance units.  These

15     are things that are done in the regular procedure.

16             Since we received the order on the 2nd of July, and we were

17     supposed to be ready for attack on the 6th of July at 4.00 a.m., then my

18     commander - this is very important - my commander participated the entire

19     time in the preparation of the order of the Drina Corps command.  He went

20     there and he took part in the preparation of the Drina Corps order so

21     that my commander had all of these things that had to do with the -- my

22     part of the job, that would be paragraph 1, data about the enemy, and

23     intelligence and security support, which was also supposed to have had

24     come from me.

25             So he returned to Bratunac and then my commander used his

Page 12141

 1     discretionary powers, and on the basis of teamwork in which he

 2     participated at the Drina Corps level, he used his discretionary right

 3     and wrote, on the basis of the Drina Corps order, his order.  He just

 4     extracted the tasks entrusted to the Bratunac Brigade and he wrote his

 5     order for the Bratunac Brigade.  So that would be a truncated procedure.

 6     It does not imply all of the above.  He can consult his assistants in the

 7     truncated procedure, but if he has sufficient information about all the

 8     combat-readiness elements, then he can write the order himself.

 9             In both cases - this is a very important sentence - in both

10     cases, the brigade commander -- you can suggest whatever you want at this

11     joint meeting, the brigade commander can accept your proposal or

12     suggestion, he can accept a part of it, or he can reject your entire

13     proposal and say, "I have decided ..."  When the commander says, "I have

14     decided ...," then everything that you've said before is done with.  The

15     commander makes his decision.  There are no more proposals and

16     suggestions.

17             So I have tried my best to clarify this whole matter.  I hope

18     that it was worth it.

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You are trying to say that he wrote the entire order, Blagojevic,

21     based on the information that he had at his disposal?

22        A.   Yes, I am saying that that was the result of his decision.

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, do you see that this order that we can see on our

24     screens states that the sector of Pribicevac was assigned as the sector

25     where the prisoners should gather and that is added by hand in the

Page 12142

 1     Drina Corps order?

 2        A.   I see that.

 3        Q.   And was this done by Colonel Blagojevic in the Bratunac Brigade

 4     order?

 5        A.   Everything that is in this order is something that was his

 6     responsibility.  He was the commander.  He's the only person authorised

 7     to sign the order and he did sign it.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to the last

 9     page of this order.

10        Q.   And we will see that the Pribicevac IKM of the brigade became

11     functional or operational from 1200 hours.  Do you need to look at the

12     previous order by the Drina Corps on the screen which states that the

13     IKM - it was crossed out - of the brigade was in the Pribicevac sector.

14     And then 1600 hours was crossed out, and then 1200 hours was written by

15     hand.  Do you need to look at that order on your screen to compare the

16     two?

17        A.   No, there is no need for that.

18        Q.   So did Commander Blagojevic, as you say, make these changes and

19     include them entirely in his order based on the changes made in the

20     Drina Corps order?

21        A.   Well, I did not make that kind of comparison, but what I see is

22     more or less defined also in the Drina Corps order only with different

23     times.  I think the time there is different.

24             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender

25     65 ter 05803.

Page 12143

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05803 receives number D303,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, from the -- the attack on Srebrenica started on the

 7     6th of July and the forward command post of the Bratunac Brigade was

 8     located at Pribicevac from that time; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were you at Pribicevac?

11        A.   Before the 6th, yes.  After the 6th, no.

12        Q.   And from the 6th to the 11th?

13        A.   No, I was not at Pribicevac then.

14        Q.   Are you able to tell us, as briefly as possible, whether you were

15     stationed at the Bratunac Brigade command during that period?

16        A.   Not for the Bratunac Brigade command.  I was dealing or

17     responsible for the area of responsibility of my unit, including the

18     check-point at Zuti Most.

19        Q.   Did you have information about when General Mladic would arrive

20     at the Bratunac Brigade area of responsibility during the combat

21     operations?

22        A.   I cannot tell you precisely when I got information the first time

23     that he would arrive, but I know approximately when they announced that

24     General Mladic would come.  I can tell by the combat.  Combat was being

25     carried out along that axis.  At the beginning there was some kind of

Page 12144

 1     success by Serbian forces, and then perhaps on the second or third day,

 2     but I cannot be sure about that, problems cropped up.  I even think that

 3     on that day, one or two Serbian soldiers were killed, one was seriously

 4     wounded, and the operation halted.  I don't know.  I don't know what was

 5     happening between General Krstic and the corps command along that line,

 6     but I know that General Mladic arrived around that time when the

 7     operation ground to a halt.

 8        Q.   And do you know that at that time there was a major storm in

 9     Bratunac, Srebrenica, and the surrounding area, and that that was the

10     reason for halting the operation on the 7th and the 8th of July, 1995?

11     Do you remember that?

12        A.   No, no.

13        Q.   And who informed you that General Mladic would come at that time?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know exactly, but I did have information

15     that he was supposed to arrive.  I don't remember who it was.

16        Q.   And did you go then to secure the road from Konjevic Polje to

17     Bratunac?

18        A.   No, I did not.

19        Q.   And did you secure the Bratunac-Pribicevac road which was taken

20     by General Mladic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Tell me, you did it again with a military police platoon?

23        A.   I think that members of the military police were involved, and I

24     also think that elements of a reconnaissance platoon were also involved,

25     but I believe that the majority of them were military police.

Page 12145

 1        Q.   Did you meet General Mladic at Bratunac at that time?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3        Q.   Did you talk to General Mladic in the course of those days?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Your first conversation with him, according to you, took place in

 6     Konjevic Polje?

 7        A.   No.  My first encounter with General Mladic in that period was at

 8     Hotel Fontana on the 11th of July.

 9        Q.   Are you trying to say that the two of you talked on that

10     occasion?

11        A.   What I want to say is that I met General Mladic when he arrived

12     at Hotel Fontana to attend the meeting.

13        Q.   Did you report to him on that occasion?

14        A.   No, I didn't.  It was Colonel Jankovic.

15        Q.   My question was:  Did you talk to General Mladic on the

16     11th of July?

17        A.   We greeted each other, General Mladic arrived, three of us met

18     him, and we exchanged some phrases that were an expression of good

19     manners but were irrelevant.

20        Q.   When the war started in 1992 up until July 1995, how many times

21     did you have an opportunity to talk to General Mladic?

22        A.   I believe it happened on two occasions:  Once when I was summoned

23     to Crna Rijeka, and I believe that it had to do with talks about the

24     enclave boundaries, and I brought a report on that issue with me that had

25     been requested from me to provide.  And the next time, I think it was in

Page 12146

 1     1994, when General Mladic visited my brigade and I was in his escort when

 2     he visited the 2nd Infantry Battalion.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, the simple question was:  How many

 4     times.  The answer, the simple answer is:  Two times.  If Mr. Petrusic

 5     wants to know more, then he'll ask you about it.

 6             Mr. Petrusic, because the subject matter may be totally

 7     irrelevant.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll do my best.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in the agreement on facts and acceptance of

10     responsibility, paragraph 9, you said:

11             "I spent about 45 minutes in Konjevic Polje prior to the arrival

12     of General Mladic.  He arrived there by car from the direction of

13     Bratunac and he stopped at an intersection at Konjevic Polje.  He

14     alighted from the vehicle, and we met in the middle of the road.  I

15     reported to him and said that there were no problems.  He looked around

16     him and he saw prisoners.  Some of those prisoners asked him what was

17     going to happen to them, to which he responded that all of them would be

18     taken away from there and that they shouldn't worry."

19             This is what you stated on the 6th of May, 2003.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I see that the staff is very active in

21     getting paragraph 9 on the screen, but since you have not given any

22     source they are still with the previous document.  So if you could give a

23     number so that we can follow what you are reading and not look at

24     paragraph 9 of the former document.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  I apologise, Your Honours,

Page 12147

 1     but speaking about the previous document, which is still on our screens,

 2     which is 65 ter 14717, I would like to tender it into evidence.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We have admitted it already, Mr. Petrusic.  I think

 6     the two of them, the original Drina Corps order and this one,

 7     Bratunac Brigade, were already admitted.

 8             But if you would focus on what I asked you, that is to give the

 9     number of the document you are reading from, then we could move on.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That's document D301.  And that's

11     paragraph 9, the passage last but one.

12        Q.   So, Mr. Nikolic, there is no need for me to read this paragraph

13     again.  You can see it on your screen.  And here you described your

14     encounter with General Mladic in the agreement.  Although, yet again, you

15     never mentioned in this agreement that General Mladic, in response to

16     your question what would happen with them, made a certain movement with

17     his hand.

18        A.   No, I didn't.

19        Q.   After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days

20     or had another four interviews with the Prosecution.  That was on the

21     28th, 29th, and 30th May, and 12th of July.  Do you remember these

22     conversations?

23        A.   I remember that there were a lot of interviews.  I cannot

24     remember every single one of them.  But I did talk to the Prosecution

25     several times.

Page 12148

 1        Q.   And in these conversations, you never mentioned a certain gesture

 2     that Mr. Mladic made with his hand with respect to what would happen to

 3     those people.

 4        A.   I don't know if I demonstrated that or not, but if it's not

 5     recorded, then I didn't.

 6        Q.   But do you remember, to the best of your recollection, when did

 7     you first say or made such a gesture that General Mladic allegedly made

 8     in Konjevic Polje?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.  Maybe in one of my testimonies, but I

10     don't know precisely when.

11        Q.   Can you cite at least one reason why you failed to do that

12     before?

13        A.   I don't know.  Probably nobody asked me about it.  When I gave

14     evidence, I did my best to provide every possible detail about what

15     happened.

16        Q.   Well, wouldn't you say that this alleged gesture with his hand

17     should have featured in all these interviews?  Don't you think that you

18     should have mentioned it in every conversation that you had with regard

19     to the facts and responsibility?

20        A.   Everything that is contained in the agreement was authored by my

21     defence counsel, and that was not the only oversight and lapse on their

22     part, and I ascribe responsibility to my lawyers.  And it's a great

23     responsibility.  They, themselves, admitted that they failed to do that,

24     and in their mutual correspondence they conceded to the fact that this

25     part that should have been formulated in a proper legal manner was not

Page 12149

 1     done as it should have been done due to the fact -- and that was one of

 2     the reasons why this is not contained here and why in my subsequent

 3     statements I had to provide an accurate description of what I said.

 4     There is no other explanation than that.

 5        Q.   Mr. Nikolic.  Mr. Nikolic, I can agree with you that in your

 6     subsequent statements you provided a lot of information that you

 7     disagreed with.  And you did that on the 27th of April, 2007, and to the

 8     best of my recollection, all of that was accepted.  In this supplementary

 9     statement, you said that your encounter with General Mladic happened in

10     the way you described and that that was the moment when General Mladic

11     made the gesture in question.

12        A.   No.  That was not one of the corrections that I made because I

13     believed that it was not of any significance and that was probably the

14     reason why I never mentioned it.

15        Q.   I suppose you will agree with me that this alleged gesture made

16     by General Mladic took place at Konjevic Polje, and it was a very

17     interesting, not to say key, moment both for the Prosecution and all

18     other concerned parties.  Do you agree with that?

19        A.   No, I don't think that to be a crucial piece of information or

20     anything else that would be valuable for the Prosecution.  There are many

21     more other things in the gestures of your client that there -- this is

22     actually a minor thing.

23        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, did you have an opportunity to see this statement

24     during the break?  The statement that was put to you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you give it to the Registrar to be given to

Page 12150

 1     Mr. Nikolic and then -- so that he could read it?

 2             No.  Then if no one cares about giving it to him, then he'll not

 3     receive it.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never received any statement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Since I would not disallow that you give it for the

 7     next break and then ask one or two questions after the break, but

 8     preferably it should have been done already.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, which vehicle did General Mladic use to get to

12     Pribicevac?

13        A.   I don't know exactly because I didn't see him personally leave

14     for Pribicevac.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

16     questions for Mr. Nikolic and with this I would like to conclude my

17     cross-examination.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

19             I suggest that we take a break a little bit earlier, that you

20     provide -- Mr. Petrusic, that the Defence provides the witness with the

21     document that you had in mind, that is the statement of another witness,

22     as far as I understand.  Could you also clearly indicate what portions

23     you would expect the witness to read, and then after the break, you'll

24     have another five minutes to put some questions on that.

25             And after that, Mr. Nicholls, you'll have an opportunity to

Page 12151

 1     re-examine the witness.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just -- I have a hard

 3     copy in the Serbian language if it -- if they need one, of this

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it, Mr. Petrusic, that you'll gladly accept

 6     this assistance.

 7             Then could the usher give it -- but you can't indicate which

 8     portions the witness should read --

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- isn't it?

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So I suggest, Mr. Petrusic, do you have a hard copy

13     of the document in your own language?  The document you wish the witness

14     to read.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone.

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Are there any comments on it or is it a virgin

19     document?

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The document is not exactly clear,

21     but the only comment is an indication which one of those is an English

22     version and which one is the Serbian version, but I should have made a

23     copy before anything was added by hand.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, do you have a clean copy in the

25     Serbian or the B/C/S language?

Page 12152

 1             MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated] I do have a clean

 2     copy if --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, if -- then --

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.  I do have a clean copy that has nothing

 6     on.  I don't know if my friend wants to see it first.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the clean copy -- how long is the document?

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Three pages, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Three pages.  Then I think it's a waste of time to

10     indicate what the witness should read.

11             Mr. Nikolic, you are invited to read all three pages during the

12     break.

13             And could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom together

14     with the document.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we will resume at

17     five minutes past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, can you tell us, how far was General Mladic's escort

25     at the time when you purportedly reported to him at Konjevic Polje?

Page 12153

 1        A.   It was -- well, you know just as I do, what is the distance

 2     between an officer and his escort, five steps, ten steps, up to 15.

 3     That's standard procedure.  There is nothing special about it.

 4        Q.   Did they ever get out of the vehicle?

 5        A.   Yes, they did.

 6        Q.   And you were a few steps in front of them as well as

 7     General Mladic?  I'm sorry.

 8        A.   I first walked towards General Mladic, and once I finished my

 9     reporting to him, then we walked together some 20 paces towards the

10     people who were prisoners there.

11        Q.   Do you agree that that was the only police check-point at this

12     intersection in Konjevic Polje?

13        A.   There was another one in Kravica.  But in Konjevic Polje, yes,

14     there was only one.

15        Q.   At this police check-point or, rather, in that area, there were

16     no visible obstacles that would separate you and General Mladic from the

17     remaining personnel in the area?

18        A.   No, there were not.

19        Q.   The Defence position is -- because, sir, you also said that

20     General Mladic addressed the prisoners.  Therefore, the Defence position,

21     Mr. Nikolic, is that at this location, at this point, there were no

22     visual -- visually noticeable imprisoned Muslims.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am going to quote a part of the

24     statement, 65 ter 1D01002.  That is Mladen Blagojevic's statement, who

25     says on page 2, paragraph 4 --

Page 12154

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  First, is it clear, Mr. Petrusic, that you put this

 2     to the witness as a follow-up - because you were given an opportunity to

 3     discuss the documents with the witness - is this a follow-up on where the

 4     witness said where Mr. Mladic addressed the prisoners or the men

 5     detained, and now you are reading a portion of a statement which says

 6     otherwise.  Is that what we are at?

 7             Then please have it on the screen so that we can follow the

 8     reading and see something of the context and then read -- oh, it's

 9     already.  I apologise.  It's already on the --

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That's English page 2,

11     paragraph 3, the last sentence, which reads --

12        Q.   And Blagojevic says:

13             "At the intersection, there were no persons for who I could have

14     concluded that they were captured Muslims."

15             Mr. Nikolic, can you tell us, did Mr. Blagojevic have any reason

16     at all to claim otherwise or contrary to what you said?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Form of the question.  I don't know that the

19     witness can tell us what was in Mr. Blagojevic's mind.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that Mr. Petrusic wanted to ask whether

21     there is any fact known to this witness which might lead him -- which

22     might be relevant for understanding why Mr. Blagojevic gave a

23     different -- statement different from his account of the event.

24             That is what Mr. Petrusic apparently wanted to ask you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  Yes.  I cannot answer this

Page 12155

 1     question without mentioning one absurd statement from the statement --

 2     or, rather, something that is absolutely untrue.  In his statement,

 3     Mr. Blagojevic said that he saw around 100 imprisoned Muslim in -- in

 4     Sandici, and he also said that in Sandici, General Mladic got out of the

 5     vehicle and addressed the Muslims.  Then he arrived in Konjevic Polje

 6     where, on the 13th, there was the largest number of Muslims who were

 7     taken prisoner.

 8             So to be precise, from Kamenica, Konjevic Polje, almost to the

 9     Kuslat sector.  So this is a pretty large area and the assertion that

10     Blagojevic, who were there, did not see any prisoner is -- is untrue

11     because they were there.  It was impossible not to see them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you are contesting the accuracy of the

13     statement.  We leave it to that.

14             Mr. Petrusic.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, those military policemen, were they in a position to

17     see everything that you and General Mladic gesticulated?  Could they hear

18     and see or one of the two?  What was going on during your encounter?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Focused question, please, Mr. Petrusic.

20             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This refers to -- or, rather, in terms of where they were

22     vis-a-vis you and General Mladic, could military policemen see that

23     alleged gesture with his hand that General Mladic made?

24        A.   They could see everything I did.  They could see my encounter

25     with General Mladic.  They could both see and hear my report, because I

Page 12156

 1     did it quite loudly.  Whether they did see on and hear everything, I

 2     don't know.  I don't know what they heard or saw.  Whether they were

 3     focused, whether they were paying enough attention, I wouldn't be able to

 4     say that.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 5 on page 2, in English it's the fourth paragraph,

 6     this same witness says, and I quote:

 7             "I can also state that on that occasion, on the 13th of July, at

 8     the intersection, I did not see Momir Nikolic talking to General Mladic

 9     at the police check-point."

10             Further on:

11             "If Momir Nikolic is claiming to have met and spoken with

12     General Mladic at that location at the intersection in Konjevic Polje on

13     that day and that General Mladic then indicated to him with a motion of

14     the arm that the Muslims would be liquidated, I state categorically that

15     this is not true."

16             This is to be found in paragraph 5 of this statement.

17             Mr. Nikolic, what is your position vis-a-vis this paragraph?

18        A.   My position vis-a-vis the entire statement is special.  There are

19     parts - including this paragraph - which are absolutely incorrect, and

20     particularly this paragraph is incorrect.  If I have to go through the

21     statement and tell you what is not correct, I am prepared to do that.

22        Q.   No, that won't be necessary.  I am here to put questions to you.

23     Will you allow for a possibility that while you were in Konjevic Polje,

24     you popped in to some of the nearby houses along the road?

25        A.   No, I didn't do that.

Page 12157

 1        Q.   When you went to fetch Resid Sinanovic, did you enter the house

 2     where he was?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, Resid Sinanovic was brought by the

 4     members of the police to my car, as far as I can remember.  That was

 5     18 years ago, and I'm speaking from memory.  However, I knew that there

 6     was some other detained Muslims in the same house where Resid Sinanovic

 7     was.  They were young and it was obvious they were members of the Muslim

 8     army.

 9             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

10     tender this document into evidence, and that would be all I had for this

11     witness.

12        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you.

13        A.   I apologise, am I supposed to return the statement to somebody?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The usher will take it back from you.

15             Mr. Petrusic, are you tendering this document for the -- for the

16     truth of its content, and then not whether Mr. Blagojevic said it but

17     whether what he said is to be relied upon?  Is that the purpose?

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Bearing in mind that the primary

19     reason for the admission is the truthfulness of the statement which the

20     Defence deems to be true, this is the reason for admission.  However,

21     bearing in mind that it's -- that the relevant parts of the transcript of

22     the statement have been quoted, in this case we can withdraw our motion

23     for admission.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because there might be a problem.  The

25     statement is drawn -- was drafted for the purposes of this Tribunal, and

Page 12158

 1     then Rule 92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater would apply as a lex specialis to the

 2     general rules on evidence.  But it being withdrawn, we don't need to pay

 3     further attention to it.

 4             Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.  These were your questions.

 5             Mr. Nicholls, any questions in re-examination?

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, just a few, Your Honours.  I think my -- a

 7     couple more questions came up at the end, but I think I will still be

 8     less than half an hour.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, let me go back -- let's talk about Konjevic Polje

11     and the gesture.  I have to switch mics.  At page 36 of the transcript

12     today, Mr. Petrusic quoted from paragraph 9 of your statement of facts

13     about your encounter with General Mladic at Konjevic Polje.  Then at the

14     bottom of the page, line 24, going on to page 37, Mr. Petrusic read to

15     you that:

16             "There was no need to read the paragraph again."

17             And then said:

18             "Although, yet again, you never mentioned in this agreement that

19     General Mladic in response to your question what would happen to them,"

20     meaning the prisoners, "made a certain movement with his hand."

21             And then you answered:

22             "No, I didn't."

23             And then you were asked:

24             "After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days,

25     another four interviews, with the Prosecution.  That was on the 28th,

Page 12159

 1     29th, and 30th of May, and 12th July.  Do you remember these

 2     conversations?"

 3             And you responded:

 4             "I remember there were a lot of interviews.  I can't remember

 5     every single one of them, but I did talk to the Prosecution several

 6     times."

 7             And then Mr. Petrusic made the assertion:

 8             "And in these conversations, you never mentioned a certain

 9     gesture that Mr. Mladic made with his hand with respect to what would

10     happen to those people?"

11             And you said you couldn't remember that.

12             Do you remember that bit of testimony recently?  Actually,

13     whether you remember it or not, I'll just ask another question.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 1D01005.  And we didn't have this in

15     e-court, but my friends uploaded it, so they had it and we're aware of

16     it.  And the first page, please, in English and B/C/S.

17        Q.   This is an information report from Mr. Bruce Bursik, who was an

18     investigator with the OTP at the time.  Subject, interviews with you on

19     the 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, 2003.  The same days Mr. Petrusic put to

20     you.  The same month as your plea agreement.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Let's go to page 7 of the English and the B/C/S,

22     please.

23        Q.   And I know you had a lot of interviews with the OTP.  This might

24     help you remember.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's toward the bottom of both pages on 7.

Page 12160

 1        Q.   I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but if we look at

 2     it, clearly we can see that this page is discussing the events of

 3     13 July 1995.  If we look at the fourth paragraph from the bottom in the

 4     English, third paragraph from the bottom in your language, Mr. Nikolic,

 5     speaking of 13 July 1995, I'll read it out:

 6             "Nikolic states that he was aware of the sporadic killings taking

 7     place in Konjevic Polje.

 8             "After meeting Mladic at Konjevic Polje, Nikolic states that he

 9     asked Mladic what they were going to do with all those people (referring

10     to the prisoners).  Mladic turned and gestured with his hand with a flat

11     wave.  Nikolic states that he understood this gesture to mean that the

12     prisoners were to be killed."

13             Now that document uploaded by the Defence which they put to you

14     did not mention any hand gestures -- I'm sorry.  Does that refresh your

15     recollection of when you mentioned this hand gesture to the OTP?

16        A.   Of course this helps me.  I've already stated that there were

17     quite a few of those meetings and interviews, and I think one of the

18     questions was whether I remember when it was when I mentioned it the

19     first time.  And then I said, "No, I don't remember."  But I accept that

20     Mr. Bursik was present and we discussed a lot of things.  This was just a

21     working version, an interim version of the transcript of our interview,

22     just for the Trial Chamber's benefit.  And amongst other things, I

23     mentioned what is recorded in this text.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let me move on.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  I won't seek to tender that, Your Honours, because

Page 12161

 1     I think I read out a sufficient portion.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have read out the relevant portion.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Let's move on now to the witness statement of Mladen Blagojevic

 5     that was just put to you.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Which I think is 1D02002.  If I could have that in

 7     e-court, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me, 1D01002.

10        Q.   Now on page 1, paragraph 1, we can see that this statement taken

11     by Mr. Petrusic on 23rd May of this year, that it concerns Mladen

12     Blagojevic, born 22 March 1971, in Bratunac, son of Radisav and Milosava,

13     nee Obaskic.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm done with that.  I just wanted to establish

15     the date of birth and the father's -- parents' names.

16             Could I have 65 ter 28973, please.  Page 1 of both.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said 65 ter 28973.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now this is a verdict of the State Court in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 6th November 2008.  And it's finding Mladen

22     Blagojevic, born on 22nd March 1971, in Bratunac, son of Radisav and

23     Milosava, nee Obaskic, guilty of crimes against humanity - if we go to

24     page 2 of both versions - as a result of crimes committed him on the

25     night of 13, 14 July, at the Vuk Karadzic school against Muslim

Page 12162

 1     prisoners, shooting at them with a machine-gun, in fact.

 2             If we go back to page 1, in the second paragraph where it says

 3     "Verdict," there is a line on previous convictions, which shows that this

 4     same Mladen Blagojevic was convicted for immigration fraud in the

 5     United States on 20 September 2006, sentenced to 12 months in gaol,

 6     suspended in order for his extradition to be tried in Bosnia.

 7        Q.   So we can see he was convicted for seven years for crimes against

 8     humanity and he had a prior conviction for immigration fraud, which,

 9     Mr. Nikolic, for your information, is perjury, lying on his immigration

10     forms.

11             And what I want to ask you, just to make it a bit briefer, since

12     it's nowhere in the statement offered by the Defence, were you aware or

13     did you know that Mladen Blagojevic had been convicted for crimes against

14     humanity for crimes committed against Muslims in July 1995 and that he

15     had been convicted of perjury?

16        A.   I know that he was convicted for crimes of war and I know why,

17     obviously.  But I did not know about that other thing, that he was

18     convicted in America for perjury, as you call it.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I would tender this brief excerpt.

20     It's four pages of the judgement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28973 receives number P1517,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P1557 is --

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1517.

Page 12163

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's -- I try to find it on the record.  P1517

 2     is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now let me move on, briefly, Mr. Nikolic.  Just a couple of more

 5     questions.

 6             I am going to ask you a question now just about the issue of the

 7     local staff, the staff of the organisations in the enclave.  On the

 8     3rd of June, a couple of days ago in this courtroom, at T 11972, line 8,

 9     His Honour the Presiding Judge asked you in relation to the -- what

10     happened with the local staff:

11             "Do you know whether that happened, you referred to them leaving

12     and ending up in different countries, did all the local staff -- were

13     they treated in such a way they were free to go ... or were some of them

14     treated like the other able-bodied men who were often taken and brought

15     to various places?"

16             And you responded that the only case you recalled that was

17     different was that of the Nuhanovic family.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honour, I am now going to refer to this

19     trial, 17 July, at T 950 to 952, the testimony of Ms. Christine Schmitz

20     of MSF.

21        Q.   Do you remember, just very simply, yes or no, if can, if you

22     remember a woman from Germany named Christine Schmitz who worked for MSF

23     in July 1995 in the enclave?

24        A.   Yes, I remember her.

25        Q.   Okay.  In her testimony here, she described a man who worked for

Page 12164

 1     MSF, a local staff member, a male, able-bodied, named Meho who chose not

 2     to go with MSF into the DutchBat compound but who went with his family to

 3     Potocari, and she described what happened to him.

 4             My question was:  Do you have any information or do you know

 5     anything about a DutchBat worker named Meho being separated on 12 or

 6     13 July in Potocari?

 7        A.   No, I don't.  I haven't got that information at all.

 8        Q.   Okay.  In that case I will leave it.

 9        A.   Very well.

10        Q.   One last point.  This is from 5th of June [sic], yesterday, I

11     think, at T 10296, line 19, to 10297, line 4, and you were asked a

12     question about the MUP units along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, and

13     I want to ask you another -- a follow-up.  This was a question from

14     Defence counsel.

15             "Mr. Nikolic, do you have any knowledge about the 13 of July and

16     who issued the order to the MUP special brigade to deploy along the

17     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?"

18             And your answer was:

19             "What I know is that Borovcanin -- they issued -- they were given

20     the order to deploy along the road by Borovcanin and chief of centre,

21     Dragomir Vasic, I believe."

22             And then you were asked another question about whether they had

23     been ordered to take any prisoners.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P00724, please.  While it's coming

25     up, just to save time I'll say this is an RS MUP special police report

Page 12165

 1     dated 5 September 1995.  Report on the combat engagement of the special

 2     police brigade and other police forces in Operation Srebrenica 95 in the

 3     period from 11 July to 21 July 1995.

 4             Could we just go to the back, last page, please, of each version.

 5        Q.   And, sir, you can see that this was signed by the commander of

 6     the MUP Specials at that time, Ljubisa Borovcanin.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now could we go to page 2 of the English and the

 8     Serbian.

 9        Q.   Do you remember if you've seen this document before?

10        A.   Yes, I did see it.

11        Q.   Now if we look at 12 July 1995, just to show the date, that we're

12     on that entry, 12 July, and go to the next page, please.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  And if we could have page 3 of the -- yes, thank

14     you.

15        Q.   So the part I'm interested in, in the English it's the third

16     paragraph from the top, it states, speaking of 12 July:

17             "I received an order from General Mladic to send half of my men

18     and the available technical equipment to that axis so as to block the

19     area and fight the aforementioned formation."

20             And actually I should have read the sentence above so that it

21     makes sense.

22             "In the afternoon hours, we received information from state

23     security employees that 12.000 to 15.000 able-bodied, mostly armed,

24     Muslims were moving from Srebrenica towards Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and

25     Tuzla."

Page 12166

 1             And then it discusses the order from General Mladic.

 2             So my question is simply:  Did you know about or can you comment

 3     on Mr. Borovcanin's report that, in fact, he received an order from

 4     General Mladic to deploy along the road?

 5        A.   I believe that I can comment on this part.  There is a slight

 6     disagreement, and I know exactly what Mr. Petrusic asked me yesterday.

 7     He asked me who it was who had ordered the police units to be deployed on

 8     that road, and I answered that the order had been issued to them directly

 9     by Vasic or Borosevic -- Borovcanin, who was in command.  I'm bearing

10     this in mind and I make a distinction between an order and a decision.

11             When it comes to the decision on the unit being deployed on that

12     road, it is a different issue.  Obviously, I am aware of this

13     information.  I have read the document.  I don't have any doubts about

14     Mr. Borovcanin's statement, which means that he received his orders from

15     the officer in charge and that was General Mladic.  He was in charge of

16     the entire operation surrounding Srebrenica.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nicholls, you took us to a page of yesterday's

18     transcript.  You said it was transcript 10296 and then 10297.  That must

19     be a mistake.  It should be 12096 and 12097, lines are correct.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  You're absolutely correct, Your Honour.  I

21     apologise.  That is what is written in my outline.  I read it out wrong.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whether it's an error on your part or

23     the transcription, most important is that it's corrected.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  That is correct.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it's even not the correct day.

Page 12167

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Ah, well.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yesterday was not the 5th of July.  It's today --

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Then --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Of June, sorry.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It was the 4th of June where these pages appeared.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And I hope the quote was correct,

 7     then.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are no other problems with this quote.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  I have no further redirect.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.

11             Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Nikolic, at the beginning of your testimony

14     you testified about Glogova and the mass graves there, and I'm interested

15     to know who was the body who took the initiative for this removal of the

16     bodies?  Was that anybody within the VRS or were the civilian authorities

17     involved?

18        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  What I know and what I already said in the

19     examination-in-chief is that the initiative was launched, the initiative

20     to relocate the graves by representatives of the civilian authorities.  I

21     know exactly who these people are.  That was the president of the

22     Bratunac Municipality Executive Board; the president of the Bratunac

23     municipality; and the president of the then-SDS party in Bratunac.  They

24     were those who initiated the relocation of those two graves and their

25     transfer from the Bratunac municipality to the territory of the

Page 12168

 1     Srebrenica municipality.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do I understand you correctly that they made this

 3     proposal, they took this initiative, but the action itself was ordered by

 4     somebody else?

 5        A.   All I can say is -- give you an affirmative answer as far as the

 6     army is concerned, that it went down that line.  I received the order or,

 7     rather, my brigade did, to engage on that assignment based on a military

 8     order and that was when Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic came to the

 9     Bratunac Brigade and informed us of the decision.  That's what I know.  I

10     don't know how the actual agreement went at higher levels above.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I refer back to page 11966.  In one of the

12     questions there was a quote:

13             "'We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the Army of

14     Republika Srpska Main Staff ...'"

15             Is that what you recall?

16        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Bench has no further questions.

19             Mr. Petrusic, has the re-examination triggered any need for

20     further questions to the witness?

21             It seems that Mr. Mladic would like to consult with counsel.

22     Could you do it at such a volume that ...

23                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear Mr. Mladic speaking from here, so that

25     should not happen.

Page 12169

 1             Mr. Petrusic.

 2             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] With your permission,

 3     Your Honours.

 4                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, who are those three people from the

 6     civilian authorities that you mentioned when you answered the Judge's

 7     question?

 8        A.   The president of the municipality at the time, from whom the

 9     initiative came, is Ljubisav Simic, the president of the municipality;

10     then Srbislav Davidovic was the president of the Executive Board; and

11     Miroslav Deronjic was the president of the SDS Municipal Board.

12        Q.   And finally, you will agree with me that commands are not issued

13     by gestures or by hand.  They are verbally articulated?

14        A.   Yes, I agree.  I know how commands are issued.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             This then, Mr. Nikolic, concludes your testimony in this court.

18     I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

19     answered all the questions during a few days, all the questions that were

20     put to you by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return

21     again.

22             The witness can be escorted out of the courtroom.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Lindsey.  Ms. Lindsey, thank you for being with

Page 12170

 1     us and assisting the Chamber in performing its task and you're excused.

 2             One last question, Mr. Petrusic.  Mr. Petrusic, were you aware of

 3     the portion which was quoted by Mr. Nicholls about the witness in one of

 4     the interviews referring to a gesture made by Mr. Mladic?

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone please, Mr. Petrusic.

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know what

 9     was the translation in the transcript.  My question to Mr. Nikolic was

10     when was it that he mentioned that gesture for the first time and

11     whether --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, that's not --

13             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, I want an answer to my question.

15             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I was.  I was.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You were aware of that?

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless you bothered the witness by asking him

19     why he had not said anything about such an important thing, and you spent

20     quite some time on it.  You suggested to him that he never had mentioned

21     any such gesture and it was only in re-examination that the Chamber

22     learned about what was said.

23             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my whole intention

24     was to see why he did not say that while the plea agreement was being

25     drafted.  That's the essence.

Page 12171

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Petrusic, correct me when my recollection is

 2     wrong.  You referred to four days of interviews, exactly the same days

 3     Mr. Nicholls was referring to, and you suggested that he had not said any

 4     word about such a gesture even in those interviews.  I think you

 5     mentioned them one by one, 29th, 30th, 31st of May.  And you suggested to

 6     him that he had not mention the gestures in any of those interviews,

 7     isn't it?

 8             We'll check the transcript.  We'll check the transcript.  But

 9     this is -- if what my recollection tells me is true, Mr. Petrusic.  But I

10     will not comment on it.  We'll first check in the transcript.  We'll do

11     that perhaps during the next break and I would like you to remain in the

12     courtroom, to be present as well after the break.

13             Could --

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll not take the break yet.  We'll do that at

16     quarter past, 15 to 20 minutes after that.

17             Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We are, Mr. President.  And good afternoon to

19     you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

21     courtroom.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Ms. Gallagher.

25             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

Page 12172

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Unnecessary to remind you that you are still bound

 2     by the solemn declaration you have given.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I am hearing it in B/C/S.  Yeah.  Yeah.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps unnecessary to remind you, but I still do.

 5     You are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the

 6     beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole

 7     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             Mr. Vanderpuye, you are touching upon a new subject.  You may

 9     proceed.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I am not going to explain again to the witness who

12     you are.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, very kindly, Mr. President.  Good

14     morning again, Your Honours.

15                           WITNESS:  ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]

16                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

17        Q.   And good morning, Ms. Gallagher.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you make it afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye, then

19     we are on one line again, yes.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's been a long morning, indeed.  Thank you,

21     Mr. President.

22        Q.   Good afternoon.  You mentioned in your previous testimony on the

23     1st of March, 2013, at transcript pages 9418 through 9419, that one of

24     tasks as an investigator was to assist in the preparation of certain

25     witnesses and exhibits.  And I'd like to follow-up on that today with

Page 12173

 1     respect to one document in particular and that's 65 ter 28975.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if we could just have that up on the screen.

 3        Q.   I'll have you identify it for the Chamber and then I'd like to --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, with your leave, I'd like to

 5     distribute hard copies of this exhibit as well once the -- once

 6     Ms. Gallagher has identified it for the record.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document is not in e-court.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Did I misspeak?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  28975.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Perhaps it hasn't been released.  Just a moment.

12     Sorry.

13             It seems we have got some technical -- well, I think it's obvious

14     we have some technical problems, Mr. President.  I'm not sure how long it

15     will take to resolve.  I can proceed with the hard copy in the interim.

16     The Defence has received it.  Oh, we have it now?  Okay.  I apologise,

17     Mr. President.  Okay.  I think we have it now.  Okay.

18        Q.   All right.  Do you recognise what we have on the screen now,

19     Ms. Gallagher?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Could you just describe what it is, just very briefly, and then I

22     will -- I would like to publish it to the Chamber to have a hard copy of

23     it.

24        A.   As you see, it's "The Bosnian Muslim Photo Identification Book."

25     It's a book that represents the Bosnian men that were identified as

Page 12174

 1     missing or alive, captured from video footage of July 12th and 13th in

 2     Potocari and also near the Sandici meadow, along the

 3     Kravica-Konjevic Polje road.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, if I may, I'd like to hand-up the

 6     hard copies of this exhibit to the Chamber.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I may proceed, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Let me just ask a couple of background questions in relation to

12     this exhibit.  First, can you tell us when you became involved in the

13     development of this particular exhibit?

14        A.   I briefly became involved in 2007 when I was working on the

15     Popovic trial, and then again in 2009 when I was working on the Tolimir

16     trial.

17        Q.   And in relation to your involvement with this exhibit, can you

18     tell us, just generally because we'll probably touch on it a little bit

19     later, what was the objective of your assignment?

20        A.   The book has remained the same since it was created in 2003.  My

21     role was to actually make sure that it was accurate as well as to update

22     any information such as the missing men that are identified in the book

23     as to what their status is now, are they still missing, or have they been

24     found dead.

25        Q.   You mentioned that it was created in 2003.  To your knowledge,

Page 12175

 1     has this book been used in other proceedings before the Tribunal?

 2        A.   Correct.  I believe it was created for the Blagojevic trial and

 3     it was used in the Popovic trial as well as the Tolimir trial.

 4        Q.   Were you involved in the updating of the book in either of those

 5     trials; that is, the Popovic or Tolimir trials?

 6        A.   Yes, in both trials.

 7        Q.   If you could, could you just tell the Chamber, just in general

 8     terms, what the purpose of this book is?

 9        A.   It is meant to identify the men that are seen in two videos that

10     were taken at the time of the fall of Srebrenica or shortly after on

11     July 12th and 13th; in particular, they were men that had been separated

12     out in Potocari that are seen on the video, and the -- the investigation

13     team, as early as 1996, were trying to find out what happened to those

14     men.  At the same time, there is footage from July 13th, both in Potocari

15     and near the Sandici meadow, and there are men that had been separated

16     out as well as men that had been captured and guarded in the meadow on

17     July 13th, and the team was trying to identify what happened to those

18     men.

19        Q.   Now you've indicated a number of men that are featured in this

20     book.  Can you tell us how many, for the purposes of identification, are

21     considered in the book?

22        A.   There are 31 men identified in the book.

23        Q.   And you indicated that the stills or the photographs in the book

24     are derived from certain video footage.  Have you had an opportunity to

25     review that footage yourself?

Page 12176

 1        A.   Yes, I've looked at both videos that these photographs have been

 2     captured from.

 3        Q.   And do the photographs that are in the book correspond to the

 4     video footage that you reviewed?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now I just want to ask you just a couple of questions.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And we can go to page number 3 in e-court, it

 8     should be, to take a look at the table of contents.  It should be the

 9     same, I think, in the B/C/S -- or, rather, the B/C/S is the following

10     page.  So we'll have to split the screen, if we can, with the same

11     exhibit, and we'll see the B/C/S on page number 4.  Okay.  And here we

12     can see the index or the table of contents of the book.

13        Q.   Can you just tell us generally or walk us through what it shows.

14        A.   As you see, the book is basically broken up into seven sections.

15     The bulk of the book is what's seen in part one, which is the

16     identifications of missing men.  Part two are the identifications of men

17     that have been found alive.  And then there are seven annexes.  The first

18     two annexes comprise all the statements and identifications made by

19     family members, neighbours, friends, who actually identified the

20     photographs and the missing men.  The second annex is similar, those

21     statements of friends, relatives, neighbours, who identify the men or the

22     men themselves who identified the men as survivors.  Annex 3 you'll see

23     is the testimony of Pasaga Mesic, the chief of police of Tuzla, and his

24     transcript from the Rule 61 hearing of Karadzic and Mladic in 1996.  And

25     the two annexes after that are associated with his testimony of the

Page 12177

 1     photos he used to show the witnesses who identified the men.  And then

 2     annex six and seven are communications that the ICTY had with Bosnian

 3     authorities regarding some of the men that had been identified both in

 4     trying to locate them in order to interview the families, and the seventh

 5     annex, those actually that had been found alive.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now with respect to the -- your assignment to update

 7     the contents of this exhibit, can you tell the Chamber basically how you

 8     did it and what materials you relied on in order to do so?

 9        A.   I started with the book as is -- as it was created, so the

10     content that you see of the photographs, of the identifications.  I read

11     all of the statements that support the identifications.  So the -- the

12     annex 1 and 2, the tables that are in the book, it's a listing of all the

13     statements of the neighbours, relatives, friends that identified the men.

14     I read those supporting statements.  Those were statements taken in 1996

15     in Tuzla, as well as follow-up interviews done by the ICTY and the

16     Srebrenica team, and that was in June of 2000.  So those are two separate

17     sets of statements that I read.

18             I also watched the videos.  I looked up the photographs that were

19     mentioned in all of the statements.  In addition, I read, of course, the

20     testimony of Pasaga Mesic and others that have testified in some form or

21     another about this book.  I also looked up the -- I verified the missing

22     men on the ICRC missing persons list and the ICTY Srebrenica missing

23     person list, and checked with the ICMP database to see if any of those

24     men have been found, if the remains have been found in any of the graves.

25     And in addition, where we did have the documents, I read the autopsy

Page 12178

 1     reports and looked at some of the exhumation reports and photographs of

 2     the men that had been found in graves.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Gallagher.  With respect to the Rule 61 testimony

 4     of Pasaga Mesic that we have indicated here in annex 3, can you tell us

 5     how that was or to what extent that was used by you in relation to your

 6     assignment to update the information contained in the book as to the

 7     status of the people that are identified in it?

 8        A.   Pasaga Mesic's testimony is regarding the -- these underlining

 9     statements that he had obtained during his investigation in terms of

10     trying to identify the men.  So though I read his testimony, I went

11     directly to the statements myself, just to read them individually.  So

12     they -- they -- they correspond, it's what he had -- had used for his

13     testimony.

14        Q.   All right.  And we'll take a look at some of those in just a

15     little bit.  Did you rely on any other information besides the ICRC, ICMP

16     lists, for example, the autopsy reports or exhumation photographs, things

17     of that nature, in relation to determining or confirming whether somebody

18     was still missing or, in fact, dead?

19        A.   Yes.  As I just mentioned, I had looked at autopsy reports, had

20     looked at exhumation reports, had looked at exhumation photographs, in

21     addition to all the other documents that I mentioned.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I saw that you are looking at the

23     clock as I did.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was indeed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  As many others did.

Page 12179

 1             We'll take a break first and we'll resume at five minutes --

 2     25 minutes to 2.00.  But could the witness first be escorted out of the

 3     courtroom.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Who is it -- will it be you, Mr. Ivetic, who will

 6     deal with the next witness -- with this witness?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  This witness, Your Honour, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is Mr. Lukic still around, to your knowledge?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He was in the office.  He was

10     working.  I don't know if he's still here or if he's working in the

11     office.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If he would still be here, the Chamber might need

13     him immediately after the break, so that would take in 15 or 20 minutes

14     from now.  We are not certain about that yet.  It depends on what we'll

15     discuss during the break.  If he would still be around, then could you

16     ask him to still remain standby.  If not, then we'll find a solution for

17     it later.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Time flies.  Let's resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic is not present.

23             Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague Lukic

25     is in the office, and due to the shortness of time, we didn't manage to

Page 12180

 1     get him to come to the courtroom.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I specifically ask you as co-counsel to

 3     pay full attention to the matter the Chamber will raise at this moment

 4     with Mr. Petrusic.

 5             Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber is concerned about what happened in

 6     cross-examination in relation to the gesture issue, if I may call it that

 7     way.  But as always, most important is first to establish what happened.

 8             Therefore, I go with you through the transcript.  You referred,

 9     transcript page 36, you started referring to the statements of facts, and

10     then you said:

11             "After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days

12     for interviews," and then you mentioned the dates on which these

13     interviews were held; that is, the 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, and the

14     12th of July.

15             The Chamber understands this to be a reference to the year 2003.

16     Is that well understood by the Chamber?  The documents are not evidence

17     so we have -- is that 2003?  Okay.

18             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Having established that, the witness said that there

20     were a lot of interviews and that he talked to the Prosecution several

21     times.

22             Then your next question was:

23             "And in these conversations," these were the conversations after

24     the agreement had been concluded, "you never mentioned a certain gesture

25     that Mr. Mladic made with his hands with respect to what would happen to

Page 12181

 1     those people."

 2             The Chamber cannot but conclude that you were misrepresenting

 3     what is found in the statements given on those days because we do

 4     understand that you were aware, as you told us before the break, that

 5     there was a passage in which this gesture was specifically mentioned.  Is

 6     that a proper understanding of what happened?  If you say it's -- this is

 7     not what I said or -- because it's translated, then please tell us and

 8     we'll verify that on the basis of -- of the audio.

 9             Was this your question?

10             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection as far as the

11     interpretation goes.  The interpretation is correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we establish that that is the question

13     that you put to the witness at that point in time.

14             The witness answered that question, saying, well, depends on if

15     it's -- if it's not recorded, I may now have said it, but he had no clear

16     recollection.

17             And then you asked him to the best of his recollection:

18             "When did you first say or made such a gesture that

19     General Mladic allegedly made in Konjevic Polje?"

20             The witness said:

21             "I don't know exactly.  Maybe in one of the testimonies, but I

22     don't know precisely when."

23             Here the witness apparently -- of my testimonies, yes.  Your

24     question then was:

25             "Can you cite at least one reason why you failed to do that

Page 12182

 1     before?"

 2             The Chamber therefore has to consider what "before" means in this

 3     context, "before" meaning before even the first of any of the testimonies

 4     of the witness.

 5             Now, as far as the Chamber is aware, this witness gave his first

 6     testimony before this Tribunal in September and early October 2003.  Is

 7     there any dispute about that?

 8             MR. PETRUSIC: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you then also agree with me that a suggestion

10     to the witness that he never mentioned it before the moment he suggested

11     as perhaps the first moment he would have mentioned it, that you were

12     aware that he had mentioned it, that is, in one of these interviews in

13     one of those days?  And that, therefore, for a second time you suggested

14     to him that he had not said anything about this gesture where you knew

15     that he had done so?

16             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you allow me a

17     few sentences in relation to this matter.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you focus on the matters -- if you want to

19     say anything about that -- later in the cross-examination that you

20     referred rather to, "Why haven't you told that in all of the interviews,

21     why have you not always said it," that is -- is well noticed by the

22     Chamber, but that does not change the fact in any way that in the first

23     two questions, that you clearly suggested that the witness had never said

24     or has never referred to a gesture during these interviews and that he

25     had never referred to such a gesture before he testified for the first

Page 12183

 1     time in this Tribunal.  Both suggestions which are completely wrong.

 2             We noticed that in the follow-up it went slightly different.  If

 3     you keep this in mind, please add anything briefly what you would like to

 4     bring to our attention.

 5             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The whole problem arose due to the

 6     badly phrased question, i.e., that I failed to exclude the 12th of June

 7     as one of the interview dates.  My intention was to focus on the first

 8     three interviews and the failure by Mr. Nikolic to mention this in the

 9     first three interviews.  Of course, the second error followed the first

10     error, but I must say that it was never my intention to do this on

11     purpose or to mislead the witness.  I am simply trying to explain to you

12     and to convince you that my first question was not limited to the first

13     three days of interviews after the -- the agreement, that is the 28th,

14     29th, and the 30th, and after that everything tumbled down as -- as a

15     sandcastle.

16             I repeat that my intention with regard to Mr. Nikolic and

17     especially towards the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution was not an

18     ill-conceived one.  The facts that you cited, there is nothing there that

19     I can dispute.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we briefly have a look again at 1D101 -- 10 --

23     I'll restart.  I'll restart.  I'll restart.

24             Could we again have a look at 1D01005.

25             The Chamber just wanted to check what the date of this document

Page 12184

 1     is.  It is the 23rd of June, and the -- and the -- it refers to

 2     interviews held on the 28th, the 29th, and the 30th of May.

 3             And could we just go through the document.  You have -- it was in

 4     your list, Mr. Petrusic.  Could you tell us where the interview of the

 5     12th of July starts?

 6             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It is a separate report dated the

 7     12th of July regarding the interview that Mr. Nikolic had with

 8     Bruce Bursik, and this report refers to the first three days.  And the

 9     12th of July report follows this one.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it --

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] And in one of those --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I was just trying to find where we see what happened

13     on the 12th of July.  You had it on our screen previously.  So if you

14     could -- then it is -- this document exclusively refers to the three

15     interviews.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember on which page the 12th of July

18     report, at least the report of the interview, starts, Mr. Petrusic?

19             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that after all these

20     interviews, i.e., after the 30th of May, there is a follow-up document

21     dated the 12th of July, and I think that it's on page 7, although I'm not

22     sure.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  Could we have a look at page 7 of this

24     document.

25             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am not sure about the page.

Page 12185

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We can look at the transcript of -- yes.  So in the

 2     same document, the sixth paragraph of page 7, we see that reference is

 3     made -- yes.

 4             Mr. Petrusic, is the translation into English, is that where it

 5     clearly describes the gesture.  Is there any problem with that

 6     translation or is that translation not in dispute?

 7             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no dispute about the translation, I do

10     understand.

11             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, and this is the interview of

12     the 12th of June.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  June or July?

14             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] June.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Where do we see that this is the 12th of June?  Do

16     you know the page?

17             MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] On the first page, if we go back

18     seven pages -- at least that's the document that I had reviewed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the -- the Chamber would like to receive a

20     hard copy of the document -- both the document on the -- you said you

21     were aware of that a gesture was referred to by the witness and --

22     Mr. Groome, we do see that Mr. Nicholls referred to a document and read

23     part of it.  That seems to be this document.

24             So if there is any other document as a source, Mr. Petrusic, on

25     which you relied in this context, please tell us.  The Chamber, by the

Page 12186

 1     way, doesn't need a hard copy of this document because it's known by its

 2     65 ter number in e-court; therefore, the Chamber can -- can further look

 3     into it.

 4             The Chamber considered it important to verify, at least, what

 5     exactly happened and what are the documents that were relied upon by the

 6     parties in this context.  The Chamber will further consider the matter

 7     and has taken notice of the fact that you have said that there was no bad

 8     intention.  You have explained what in your view happened.  We'll further

 9     consider the matter.

10             Having dealt with the matter, I think we could invite the witness

11     to be escorted into courtroom.

12             Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gallagher, you had to wait bit longer than you

15     were expected, but that's how life sometimes is.

16             Mr. Vanderpuye, you may continue.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Good afternoon again, Ms. Gallagher.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could have in e-court, please,

20     65 ter 28975, which is the -- the identification book.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a lot of noise and sound.  It may be a

22     technical matter because even if everyone seems to be frozen, it still is

23     there.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

Page 12187

 1             And we'll have to go back to -- no, actually, we can go a little

 2     bit ahead.  And we'll have to go to page 5, which should be the index of

 3     identified individuals.  All right.

 4        Q.   First I just wanted to confirm with you, if I may, Ms. Gallagher,

 5     that this is the list of 31 identified individuals that you were dealing

 6     with in the preparation or updating of this material.

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   The second thing I wanted to ask you was, you'd indicated that

 9     you had looked at a number of documents and that included autopsy

10     reports, photos, ICRC records, ICMP records.  First, did you rely

11     exclusively on that information or did you compare that information

12     amongst each other to determine whether or not it was reliable?

13        A.   No, I looked at everything in its totality in order to rely upon

14     it.

15        Q.   And did you find the materials in general that you relied on in

16     terms of updating this exhibit and confirming the status of the

17     individuals listed here, did you find the material you relied on to be

18     reliable?

19        A.   Yes, I believe it was reliable.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just now go to page 7 in the

22     B/C/S -- I'm sorry, 7 in the exhibit.  And that's page 2 in the B/C/S

23     translation, which just translates the text.  I'd like to start there.

24        Q.   Here we can see three individuals.  We can see their names so I

25     won't read them.  And we can see they have been identified in a manner --

Page 12188

 1     in a number of manners.  Can you just walk us through on what this shows,

 2     that is in terms of identification of these individuals, as it relates to

 3     your assignment concerning updating this information?

 4        A.   Well, first of all, I see that it comes from the Petrovic

 5     footage, so I watched the -- the footage to be able to make sure that I

 6     could identify them in -- in realtime walking past.  I verified that the

 7     photograph was the same photograph that was shown to the witnesses.  I

 8     read the statements that you see underneath each name when it says,

 9     "Identified by his wife," "his nephew," I read all of those underlying

10     statements.  And then I searched -- I checked the ICMP missing persons

11     list, and I checked the ICMP database to see if they turned up there.

12     And I also looked for them in our internal database, our ZyFIND system,

13     to see if we had any further documentation, whether there was autopsy

14     reports or exhumation reports or photographs of the individuals.

15        Q.   And just to put this in a bit of context, you indicated that you

16     reviewed certain video footage with respect to it; is that right?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Okay.  And what I'd like to do in just a minute is to show the

19     Chamber a video footage.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could, that's 65 ter 22287.  And I'd like

21     to play just about 30 seconds or so of that footage.  We'll start at the

22     time 00:00:54 through 00:01:24 or thereabout.  Now --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Vanderpuye, is it triple 2 or double 2,

24     87?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have 22287, but perhaps I'm mistaken.  Yup.  I

Page 12189

 1     apologise.  Yes, 22287, Your Honour.

 2             If we're queued up, we can play it, then.  I'll ask you to stop

 3     at some point, Ms. Stewart, but for the moment we can get going.  Thank

 4     you.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I've just played and I've stopped it

 7     just briefly here at 1 minute, 12.4 seconds.

 8        Q.   First, can you just describe for us the context?  What are we

 9     seeing here, based on your knowledge of the investigation and your

10     experience in this case?

11        A.   This is in Potocari and the men and women have been moved along,

12     being ushered either to the right or to the left, to trucks or to buses,

13     in order to be moved out of the area.

14        Q.   All right.  If we can -- and is this the footage, by the way,

15     that you reviewed in relation to your assignment concerning this exhibit,

16     the book?

17        A.   That's correct.  And at the beginning you would have seen the

18     exact footage that lines up with the photograph that you have in the book

19     there, to the right.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can just play this through, very quickly,

22     through 1 minute, 24 seconds.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Here we've stopped at 1 minute, 24.3

25     seconds.

Page 12190

 1        Q.   And it's a bit blurry, but can you tell us what we're seeing in

 2     this frame?

 3        A.   Here you're seeing the women that are lined up alongside the

 4     trucks.  And just prior you saw it was the men walking alongside.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can just go back now to 65 ter -- just one

 7     moment, I'm sorry.  If we can go back to 65 ter 28975.  And we'll go back

 8     to page 7.

 9             Mr. President, I understand that the video footage that I just

10     showed is not yet admitted in evidence.  I would like to tender it in

11     evidence.  I know that it's a lot longer that what I've played, so what I

12     would propose, at least in the interim, is to mark it for identification

13     at this time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And to see what total compilation finally we'll have

15     in evidence, that's -- Madam Registrar, the portion played would receive?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Number -- reserve number P1518, Your Honours.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Ms. Stewart informs me that we should have a

18     suffix A because it will be an extract of the 65 ter number.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Therefore, one uploaded as document 2287A

20     receives number P1518, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you a little bit about the details we see

24     here.  Here we can see identifications through OTP interviews and an

25     identification through Pasaga Mesic Rule 61 hearing, 9 July, with respect

Page 12191

 1     to Ahmo Mehmedovic.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am not sure if we have the right page in the

 3     B/C/S on the screen because the names are different from those of the

 4     English page.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes, the B/C/S page should be

 6     page 2.  Thank you, Your Honours.  Okay.  I think we've got it straight

 7     now.

 8        Q.   With respect to multiple identifications in this case, as you can

 9     see are indicated here, was there any differentiation that you made with

10     respect to:  One, the identity of the person as distinguished from what

11     you later learned or what you later found out happened to the person,

12     what their status was?  Are these only relating to the identification of

13     the individual or are they relating to the status of the individual?

14        A.   These that you see in the book are simply about the

15     identification of the person.  In the book it does not indicate beyond

16     whether they are missing or they're alive.

17        Q.   And in terms of your examination as to the identity of the

18     individuals that are named in the book, did you find any discrepancies in

19     terms of the information you found in the evidence of Pasaga Mesic versus

20     the information you found in the statements of various individuals that

21     also identified the same person?

22        A.   For -- for the most part, no.  His testimony correlates with the

23     statements that are listed in the indexes.  There were a couple of minor

24     mistakes that were made, such as a -- in his testimony, perhaps a wrong

25     age, or in one occasion there is one woman who is identified in the book

Page 12192

 1     and he had testified it was a male -- with a male's name instead.  But

 2     otherwise, the information that he gave in his testimony is the same as

 3     the information that's in the statements.

 4        Q.   In this --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I'm looking at the clock.  It's

 6     quarter past 2.00.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well, Mr. President [overlapping

 8     speakers] --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to conclude for the day.

10             But before we do that, Mr. Ivetic, if you are the one who will

11     deal with this witness, to what extent is the dispute about the

12     identifications of persons?  Not to say that -- but just whether this

13     person shown on the video is the person as the Prosecution claims it is.

14     Is there a dispute about those?

15             MR. IVETIC:  I don't think there is even a way that we could

16     dispute a lot of the identifications, only as to where there is

17     documentation otherwise.  But it will not be -- there will not be a cross

18     focusing on the actual -- focusing too much on the identifications of the

19     persons as pictured, no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

21             Then perhaps, Mr. Vanderpuye, and Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you could

22     sit together, have a cup of tea or coffee, and try to find out to what

23     extent we should use time in court on matters which are included in this

24     material.

25             Ms. Gallagher, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

Page 12193

 1     quarter past 9.00 in this same courtroom I -- ah, yes, half past 9.00,

 2     otherwise you would have to wait for another 15 minutes in addition to

 3     what you expected.

 4             You may follow the usher.  Yes, and I should -- I'm sorry, I have

 5     forgotten to instruct you, and especially since you're -- since of your

 6     job, not to speak with anyone about your testimony under the conditions

 7     as we have spelled out earlier, whether testimony already given or still

 8     to be given.

 9             You may now follow the usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

12     Thursday, the 6th of June, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

13     courtroom I.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

16                           June, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.