1 Wednesday, 5 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 The Chamber was informed that there are no preliminaries.
12 Therefore, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Nikolic. Please be seated.
16 Mr. Nikolic, I would like to remind you that you're still bound by the
17 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony. We
18 hope to conclude your testimony today. Mr. Petrusic will now continue
19 his cross-examination.
20 Mr. Petrusic.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, I
22 have taken your suggestions into account so that today there will be no
23 repetitive questions that have already been heard in this courtroom, and
24 I hope that we will proceed much faster.
25 WITNESS: MOMIR NIKOLIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic: [Continued]
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, we're still dealing with the
4 13th of July. What I would like to ask you is whether you received and
5 from whom you received information that General Mladic would pass along
6 that route from Konjevic Polje -- from Bratunac towards Konjevic Polje
7 and on, on the 13th of July, and that in general he was going to leave
8 the Bratunac area.
9 A. During the examination-in-chief, I already said that the
10 information that General Mladic was going to go along that route on that
11 day came from the military police commander, Mirko Jankovic.
12 Q. But you don't have reliable information from where Mirko Jankovic
13 got this information?
14 A. I don't know. There was probably an order for a section of the
15 Bratunac Brigade Military Police to be engaged, so the person who issued
16 the order probably knows where that information came from.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nikolic, the beginning of your answer, "I don't
18 know," is good enough. What probably may have been the case is not
19 relevant. You don't know.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Nikolic, could General Mladic have passed and gone towards
24 Milici or towards Han Pijesak and Crna Rijeka, his final destination,
25 along a different route without passing through Sandici and
1 Konjevic Polje?
2 A. Yes, he could have.
3 Q. Was it possible to expect in view of the situation on the road
4 and the general situation in the Bratunac and Konjevic Polje and
5 Nova Kasaba area with a large number of armed Muslims who were
6 transferring through that locality, so would it be reasonable to expect
7 that General Mladic, his security, and his security organ, felt that it
8 would have been safer to take a different route?
9 A. Well, this is a hypothetical question. It's possible, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, there are five or six assumptions in
11 your question which have not been verified first. And then whether it's
12 possible, whether it's reasonable to expect asks for a judgement. So
13 it's both hypothetical and there are four or five unexplained
14 assumptions, and it is asking for opinion. That is not the type of
15 questions that assist the Chamber.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. I will
17 finish that particular topic.
18 Can we look at document 65 ter 1D01002 in e-court, please.
19 Q. Mr. Nikolic, while we're waiting for the document, do you know
20 who Mladen Blagojevic is? Do you remember? A lot of time has passed
21 since then, of course.
22 A. If I remember very well, I think this is a policeman in the
23 Bratunac Brigade Military Police Platoon.
24 Q. And do you know Milovan Mitrovic?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. And was he also --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: E-court on our left screens is not functioning well.
4 We could, of course, meanwhile use our right screens but ...
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: But that's no solution for the witness.
7 Witness, can you see the document, which should be witness
8 statement Mladen Blagojevic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes I can see it.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Our e-court is not
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it. Yes. And the statement
13 is my language that I understand.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that when we refer or read from the
15 document that we do it very, very slowly and that everyone uses his other
16 screen, which you can by choosing the right buttons --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters only have one screen and it's
18 not working.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was the reason why I asked that
20 everything would be read very slowly because I was aware that it was not
21 a solution for the interpreters.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Nikolic, let me continue. You also know Milovan Mitrovic; is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we very slowly proceed and use as
2 much as we can our right screens but with full understanding for the
3 interpreters having no screen on which they can choose.
4 Slowly, therefore, Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed. And meanwhile,
5 within two or three minutes I do understand the system will function
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. What about Slobodan Mijatovic, do you know him?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Borivoje Jakovljevic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Pero Andric?
13 A. Yes, I know him.
14 Q. And would you agree that this paragraph, paragraph 5 in the B/C/S
15 version, and paragraph 4 in the English version, names soldiers who
16 belong to the Bratunac Brigade Military Police?
17 A. Yes, yes. I already said that these were members of the Bratunac
18 Brigade Military Police Platoon.
19 Q. In the next paragraph of the statement, the witness states that
20 on the 13th of July, seven or eight soldiers of the military police of
21 the Bratunac Brigade --
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now we don't have a
24 JUDGE ORIE: We do, but is there ...
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can follow the
1 right monitor and turn the transcript on there but ...
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The transcript in e-court is not functioning at
3 the moment but in LiveNote it's going on.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Too many problems at this moment on too many
7 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom. We will take
8 a short break of most likely no more than five minutes to -- to restart
9 all systems.
10 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- Break taken at 9.48 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 9.54 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness with escorted into the courtroom.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Technical problems being resolved, Mr. Petrusic, you
17 may proceed.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Nikolic, did you know that members of the military police, in
20 the morning on the 13th of July, were driving General Mladic to the
21 Suceska area to meet with units under the command of Milan Jolovic,
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you switch on the microphone.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me if I knew that members
1 of the military police were driving General Mladic. No, they were not
2 driving him. They were in the escort of General Mladic.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And did you know that in the morning of the 13th of July, they
5 were in the escort of General Mladic in the Suceska area?
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was saying -- I was saying, the witness has just
7 told you the answer to the question you are just putting to him.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Nikolic, would you agree with me that this part of the
10 statement is correct, that after Sandici, in the escort, they came to
11 Konjevic Polje? This is paragraph 3 in the Serbian version and
12 paragraph 2 in the English version on page 2.
13 A. I can see the first page here.
14 Q. It's the second page.
15 A. Very well. And could you please tell me which paragraph it is?
16 Q. In the second -- in the Serbian version, it's paragraph 3, and in
17 the English version, it's paragraph 2.
18 A. I have to reply to the previous question, to one part of the
19 previous question because I did not give you an answer to that. So I
20 don't agree with that and I did not have information that General Mladic,
21 on the 13th, was in Suceska. I know and I have information, I have a
22 report by the military police commander, that on the 13th, General Mladic
23 was in Srebrenica at the municipal building or in the municipality of
24 Srebrenica, that he toured the Orthodox church, and that he spoke with
25 some people from the Srebrenica municipality, and then after that
1 conversation he returned to Bratunac. So there is no reason, it's not
2 logical, and it wouldn't be true that any forces were in the Suceska area
3 at that time. The Wolves from the Drina were not in the Suceska sector
4 on the 13th. If you take the map, you can see. I know that by heart.
5 The Suceska sector has nothing to do with any of the axes of attack on
6 Srebrenica. It's the birthplace of Zulfo Tursunovic, a man who was
7 suspected, he was a commander of a notorious brigade which also committed
8 crimes against the Serbian population, and that is that sector.
9 So Suceska in any way would have been the objective of the visit
10 by General Mladic. This is what I know.
11 Q. Mr. Nikolic, after the completion of combat operations --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to intervene. No objection. I just think
14 for the transcript, the last sentence of Mr. Nikolic's answer was -- in
15 the transcript:
16 "So Suceska in any way would have been the objective of the
17 visit ..."
18 It seems to me that there is something missing. "Would have
19 been" or "would not have been."
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Would not have been.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Petrusic.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Nikolic, we are now discussing paragraph 4 in the Serbian
1 version and paragraph 3 in the English. Witness Blagojevic says here:
2 "I am not sure whether General Mladic got out of his jeep, but I
3 remember him shouting through the window or the open door at these
4 policemen, who were obviously rather relaxed, and he criticised them for
5 not doing anything, just sunbathing at all these check-points and
6 stealing while the soldiers were dying for them. At this intersection,
7 there were no persons for whom I could have concluded that they were
8 captured Muslims."
9 Now, when this witness speaks about the interjunction, he's
10 referring to an interjunction in Konjevic Polje?
11 What is your comment on this?
12 A. This is the first time that I am looking at this statement. I
13 don't think it will be appropriate for me to comment upon it. I would
14 have preferred if you had given me time to read it first and then ask me
15 to give comments about the whole statement and the veracity and the
16 strength of arguments of this statement.
17 Just like on page 1, this portion is absolutely untrue. There is
18 absolutely no connection because I know exactly what was going on in that
19 period. I know exactly which route General Mladic took on the morning of
20 the 13th until I saw him off from Konjevic Polje. So I know exactly
21 where he was, with whom he was, where he had lunch, where he stopped. He
22 stopped at Sandici. He got out of his vehicle. It is true that he
23 argued with the police, because that was an ongoing conflict, and he
24 criticised them for not doing their job properly. That was a verbal
25 altercation. There were insults traded, et cetera.
1 So that was a conflict between the police and the army stemming
2 from the relationship between General Mladic and President Karadzic
3 because their relationship was not good.
4 Q. Mr. Nikolic --
5 A. Let me just tell you this: I know exactly what occurred. The
6 stop was in Konjevic Polje and everything that I had explained before
7 took place. And of course there was another stop in Nova Kasaba. This
8 is a report I received from Mirko Jankovic and he in turn received a
9 report from the policeman who escorted General Mladic to Han Pijesak. If
10 you want to know what was really going on on that day, I still stand by
11 to what I said and I claim that that is correct and nothing more than
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, it's totally unclear what you would
14 like to have comment on. You read the whole of a paragraph. Do you want
15 to know whether this witness has any recollection of Mr. Mladic
16 criticising the policemen, whether it's the right location he's talking
17 about, whether these were civilian policemen or not civilian policemen?
18 It's totally unclear what you seek to elicit from this witness. Asking
19 for comment without any direction doesn't bring us any further. So
20 please put focused questions to the witness.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Nikolic, we're now going to move to paragraph 5 in the
23 Serbian version and paragraph 4 in English, and I'm going to quote it.
24 "I also state that on the occasion at the mentioned intersection
25 on the 13th of July, I can say with certainly that I did not see
1 Momir Nikolic speaking to General Mladic."
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I object to the form of the question, Your Honour.
3 My understanding of the practice of this Tribunal, and I believe in this
4 courtroom as well, although I haven't practiced in here, is that this
5 type of allegation -- I know exactly where my friend is going. He's now
6 going to put it to Mr. Nikolic that he was lying, that this statement --
7 that question needs to be put to the witness not by reading out a witness
8 statement, but first to put it to the witness and then, if necessary, he
9 can refer to the statement. That's just what I'm used to.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, it's common practice in this Court.
11 I've emphasized quite a few things again and again, that before you put
12 to a witness what another witness said on a subject on which the witness
13 testifies, that you should first explore that and only then put that to
14 the witness that another witness said something different. Could you
15 please keep that in mind.
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, my point of departure was
17 the fact that the witness already gave a statement about the encounter
18 with Mr. Mladic in Konjevic Polje and that he explained the way in which
19 this encounter occurred. All I'm trying now is to put to him a statement
20 given by another witness, nothing more than that. And in line with that
21 statement, I would like to hear his comments.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: One of our problems, Mr. Petrusic, is that we do not
25 know exactly whether what the witness in the document says is exactly
1 about the same location, about the same event, et cetera, so therefore
2 you should explore that in some detail. And a suggestion by the witness
3 that he could read that statement perhaps during the next break and then
4 tell -- tell us what -- where he thinks it's consistent or inconsistent
5 with what he said and then briefly deal with that, might be a suggestion
6 that should be adopted.
7 But just to put bluntly before another statement and then to say
8 well -- to suggest it's all the same, it's contradicting, et cetera, you
9 should explore that in a systematic and organised way.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I have a
12 transcript as well -- but, okay, let's try it another way.
13 Q. Mr. Nikolic, you said that you are acquainted with
14 Borivoje Jakovljevic, that he was an MP, that he was part of
15 General Mladic's escort detail on the 13th of July.
16 A. Half of your statement is true. Half is not. I said that I knew
17 Borivoje, that he was a member of the military police, but I did not say
18 that he was in Mladic's escort because I did not know by name the persons
19 that the military police commander assigned to escort him. I wasn't
20 interested in that then and I'm still not interested to know who
21 specifically was there, to know their names.
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 65 ter document
23 1D1022. Page 28 through 32 in e-court. This is the Blagojevic case,
24 26th of May, 2004.
25 Q. Mr. Nikolic, this witness who appeared in the Blagojevic case
1 said that he hadn't seen you in Konjevic Polje, and that he was escorting
2 General Mladic and that they stopped at Konjevic Polje but that he did
3 not see you there. Do you refute the evidence given by this witness in
4 the Blagojevic case?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, what is the question? Is the
6 question, could this witness tell us whether Mr. Jakovljevic saw him? He
7 can tell whether he saw Mr. Jakovljevic. He says, "I don't know whether
8 he was in the escort." He has been quite clear on that. How could you
9 possibly know whether someone had seen you or not seen you. What's
10 the -- could you explain to us how it is possible that this witness could
11 tell us?
12 And then if Mr. Jakovljevic didn't see Mr. Nikolic, there are
13 various explanations. I think the witness could not help us with very
14 much. Either he didn't look well, he was looking at a different
15 direction, he did not recognise Mr. Nikolic. Whatever. What's the --
16 please think about your questions and about the evidence you seek to
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. On that occasion when you had an encounter with General Mladic in
20 Konjevic Polje, did you recognise any of the soldiers who were in the
21 escorting vehicle?
22 A. I really didn't pay attention to General Mladic's security detail
23 because there were quite a few of them. My focus was on reporting to
24 General Mladic and I did it in a proper military manner. I approached
25 him and I reported to him. I wasn't looking around trying to identify
1 either members of the police or other people who were around him, and
2 there were many of them. And I cannot say with certainty, although I
3 know them all, that I specifically identified and noticed any of them.
4 In other words, I did not pay attention to them. I paid attention to
5 General Mladic.
6 Q. Did they ever get out of the vehicle?
7 A. A large group, some dozen of them constituted his escort when he
8 arrived at Konjevic Polje.
9 Q. Did they get out of the vehicle?
10 A. Yes, they did.
11 Q. And amongst them, you were unable to recognise your own military
13 A. I already gave you an answer to that question. My attention was
14 focused on reporting. I wasn't looking around. You know how it's being
15 done. I'm not looking around. I am just looking at the General and I am
16 concentrated on reporting to him, and it never occurred to me to look
17 around in order to identify the persons escorting General Mladic.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D01006 from
19 65 ter list.
20 Q. Mr. Nikolic, as you can see, this is a statement given by
21 Mile Petrovic that you spoke about in the past few days. He was together
22 with Mirko Jankovic in an APC.
23 On page 3 in Serbian, line 7 from the bottom in the second
24 paragraph, and line 8 from the bottom of the page in the first paragraph
25 also in English.
1 You can see that when Mile Petrovic was giving this statement at
2 the police station in Bratunac on the 25th of August, 2003, and while he
3 was describing this particular event, I'm going to paraphrase what he
4 said, that he had gone and killed a number of Muslim men in order to
5 revenge his brother. And in that respect he says the following:
6 "I can say that I read in the newspaper and heard from other
7 citizens that they also read in the papers that Momir Nikolic accused me
8 in his statement that during the ride in the armoured personnel carrier
9 from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, I used a megaphone to call on Muslims to
10 surrender, that I killed a certain number of citizens of Muslim
11 nationality, and did other things such as singling out Muslims fit for
12 military service while they were being transported. I say that this
13 gossip is untrue and that I did not do any of this, which can be
14 confirmed by Mirko Jankovic who was with me all the time."
15 Mr. Nikolic, do you still stand by your statement that you gave
16 here with regard to this incident?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Are you trying to say --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- what you read to us is that that witness
20 read something in a newspaper about what Mr. Nikolic would have said. So
21 it is -- now my question, your follow-up question is -- I have
22 difficulties in relating that to what you just read to us. Could you
23 clarify? Because if you read something in the newspaper that Mr. A says
24 B, there are two matters to be verified: First, whether Mr. A said
25 something, said B; and the second is whether B is true or not. These are
1 two separate questions. Could you please keep that in mind and put the
2 question in such a way that the Judges also understand what the link is
3 to what you just read.
4 Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours, just to make sure I can see
6 where the Defence is going. They just read out a statement from the
7 Blagojevic trial. I don't have the witness's name in front of me. And
8 the assertion was: This witness says you were not in Konjevic Polje and
9 asserts that he did not see you in Konjevic Polje. They have now moved
10 onto the statement, which apparently they are putting in for the truth,
11 from Mirko Jankovic, which we've just discussed, and this statement, the
12 English we have, says Mirko Jankovic says he was in Konjevic Polje at
13 that time with Momir Nikolic and that Momir Nikolic got out of the APC in
14 Konjevic Polje.
15 So what is their case?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, any answer to that? If we are talking
17 about this statement. First of all, we haven't read the whole of the
18 statement so we have difficulties to see the context of it. I just
19 focused on the small portion you read about rumours in newspapers and
20 what everyone read in the newspapers. Could you please tackle the
21 subject in an organised way, and first of all make clear to the Chamber,
22 and perhaps to the witness, what your case is as far as the presence of
23 Mr. Nikolic in -- in that location is.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In the part where I quoted
25 Mr. Nikolic's statement, I wanted to ask him what his comment is on
1 Petrovic's position; i.e., that he did not commit those murders.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I can
3 be of assistance. I know what Mr. Petrusic is aiming for. I am aware of
4 this statement. I read it. I am even aware of the witness's evidence in
5 one of the cases including mine. He appeared here before this Tribunal
6 before I was sentenced.
7 Mile Petrovic in his evidence before this Tribunal did not deny
8 the fact that he was on the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje. He
9 did not deny the fact that he was in the APC. He was in two minds
10 whether to admit that he used a megaphone to invite people but there are
11 video-clips showing that clearly. There is a video-clip clearly showing
12 that he was calling out from the white APC on the Sandici-Konjevic Polje
14 One thing that Mile Petrovic did not admit - and I really never
15 expected him that he would - he didn't admit that, in Konjevic Polje,
16 once I told him to take away two imprisoned Muslims and to link them up
17 with a group that was already there. He denied here that he had killed
18 them. He denied that he had done that. I did not expect him to admit.
19 However, he admitted everything else. He admitted to the truth of
20 everything else. He admitted that we received six Muslims on that road.
21 All those elements that I spoke about, he confirmed them all but the last
22 one; i.e., he never said that it was true that he had killed them.
23 This is what I know from both his evidence and his statement. I
24 hope I have been of some assistance in that part.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, is it the position of the Defence that
1 Mr. Nikolic was not at that point in time in Konjevic Polje or is it the
2 position of the Defence that Mr. Nikolic was in Konjevic Polje?
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The position of the Defence is
4 that on the 13th of July, Mr. Nikolic was in the -- on the cross-roads at
5 Konjevic Polje but that did he not meet with General Mladic that
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now you earlier asked the witness whether he refuted
8 a statement saying that, "I didn't see Mr. Nikolic in Konjevic Polje."
9 What's the use of that if it is your position that he was in
10 Konjevic Polje? It's a waste of time. It's inconsistent.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up
15 65 ter 14717.
16 Q. Mr. Nikolic, this is an order for active combat dated
17 2nd of July, 1995. It was issued by the command of Drina Corps. On the
18 last page we will see that it was signed by Major-General
19 Milenko Zivanovic.
20 Mr. Nikolic, did you and when did you have an opportunity to see
21 this document before the beginning of the attack on Srebrenica?
22 A. As far as I can remember, the commander of the Bratunac Brigade
23 showed this document to the command sometime one or perhaps two days
24 before the attack was launched. Let me just see the date. The
25 2nd of July. It was at the earliest sometime between the 4th and the
1 5th of July the Commander Blagojevic showed us this order.
2 Q. The entire command was present or at least its bigger part?
3 A. I believe that the command was present. I am not sure that the
4 battalion commanders were also there. On that same day, there was
5 another meeting which was also attended by the battalion commanders, so I
6 can't be sure of that meeting but I know that the command was present.
7 Q. On page 4 in the Serbian version and on page 5 in the English
8 version, you will see a paragraph which is relative to the intelligence
9 security, and you will find it -- intelligence support, you will find it
10 under bullet point 10. If we move on to the following page in the
11 Serbian version, you will see that it says in the third line that:
12 The security organs and the military police will identify the
13 collection sector for prisoners of war, the collection and providing
14 security for the prisoners of war and war booty. In treating the
15 prisoners of war and the population, fully adhere to the
16 Geneva Conventions.
17 Do you see that paragraph?
18 A. Yes, I can see that.
19 Q. Did the security and intelligence organ of the Bratunac Brigade
20 have to work out in its order that part that refers to the intelligence
22 A. Your question doesn't make much sense in terms of its contents.
23 I want to help you.
24 Q. Don't help me.
25 A. I want to help you because I want to answer your question.
1 Q. Mr. Nikolic --
2 A. A security organ does not issue orders. That's for one. A
3 security organ doesn't issue any orders on any of the issues, and if you
4 are asking me whether I as a security organ contributed and helped the
5 commander to draft his order on the use of the forces of the
6 Bratunac Brigade, then we are talking about a different thing and I will
7 answer. But security organs never, ever issue any orders. They don't
8 write any orders. They don't submit any orders to anybody on any of the
10 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I did not ask you whether you were the one who
11 drafted orders. I asked you whether you participated in the drafting of
12 bullet point 10, which refers to the intelligence support.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think we now have one clear question: Did you
14 participate in the drafting of bullet point 10? That's the question. Of
15 the document which is on your screen. Did you or did you not?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I jump in for a moment and put a question to
19 the witness.
20 Mr. Petrusic read a part of this bullet point 10 to you,
21 referring to the Geneva Conventions, and you confirmed that you found
22 that sentence. Is this sentence in the B/C/S version in handwriting or
23 is it typed?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "In all dealings with prisoners of
25 war and the civilian population abide by the Geneva Conventions." This
1 is typed up. This is typed up.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put this question because in the English
3 version we see that there is one sentence which is crossed out and behind
4 that handwritten I read:
5 "The sector for collecting war prisoners and war booty is the
6 Pribicevac sector. In all dealings with prisoners of war and the
7 civilian population abide by the Geneva Conventions."
8 The second part of this is not in handwriting where the
9 Geneva Conventions is referred to.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there is a handwritten sentence
11 in superscript. I'm going to read it:
12 [As read] "The sector for collecting prisoners of war and war
13 booty is the Pribicevac sector."
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's all in handwriting, correct?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, what I have just read out to
16 you. That's in handwriting.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. This is not clear from the
18 English translation.
19 Mr. Petrusic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I'm looking at the clock. It is time
21 for a break.
22 Could we first have the witness escorted out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, will you finish in the next session?
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, very quickly after the
1 beginning of the next session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we take a break and we'll resume at five
3 minutes to 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Nikolic, we are still on the order issued by the Drina Corps
11 on the 2nd of July. When you're looking at the B/C/S version and when
12 you're looking at the part that was added by hand, where it says that the
13 Pribicevac sector is where prisoners of war and war booty would be
14 collected, is this your handwriting?
15 A. Mr. Petrusic, this handwriting looks like mine but I was not the
16 one who wrote this. I did not make any corrections to this order.
17 However, it does look like the way I write.
18 Q. So we will agree that this bullet point is relative to your
19 organ, the security and intelligence organ?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know who else may have been involved in that topic in the
22 command of the Bratunac Brigade?
23 A. Besides the commander, I don't think that there would have been
24 anybody else.
25 Q. Does this handwriting look like Commander Blagojevic's
2 A. No, it does not.
3 Q. Mr. Nikolic --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't the first question whether the handwriting was
5 put on this document before or after it was issued? Because what we see,
6 if we look at the original, there is a version which is signed and which
7 is stamped and there are various stamps on it.
8 Therefore, my first question would be: Has this handwriting be
9 added after or is it part of the drafting of this document? Do you have
10 any knowledge about that? Because sometimes you would find at my desk a
11 document which is an official document, nevertheless, with my notes and
12 handwriting on it, which is then not part of that document but is part of
13 my version of the document with my annotations on it. I wonder which of
14 the two is this document is.
15 If the witness could tell us. Do you know whether this
16 handwriting is put on the document after it had been delivered, sent,
17 signed, or whether it was done before?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I wouldn't be able to
19 give a precise answer to that question. From what I see before me, by
20 visual inspection, that is, what was written in the original was typed
21 up, and only based on that I can infer that what is here in handwriting -
22 and that is the sector for collecting prisoners of war and war booty is
23 the sector of Pribicevac - that was written subsequently.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The whole document is full of handwritten changes,
25 annotations, it's not only this part. Last page, for example, even
1 changes apparently times. So if you don't know, then perhaps it's better
2 to just tell us that you don't know.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I focused just on the part that you
6 asked me about and my answer is: I don't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We do not even know, Mr. Petrusic, as far as
8 matters stand now, on whether the handwritten comments, corrections,
9 et cetera, whether they are from the same person or from different
10 persons, and added at the same time or at different times. It is a --
11 still a puzzle, at least for me.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to dwell upon that topic
13 with the witness.
14 Q. Mr. Nikolic, if you look at the first page in this document, you
15 will see that it was sent to the Zvornik, Bratunac, and the
16 2nd Romanija Brigades, to the Birac Brigade, to the 1st Milici Brigade,
17 and to the 5th MAP. You will agree with me that if this part was added
18 by hand before the document was dispatched to the units that I have just
19 read out to you, then this handwritten bit should appear on all those
20 documents, right? Am I right in thinking that?
21 A. I can answer in the affirmative but I wouldn't like to speculate.
22 I told you what I knew about that part that was corrected. I don't know
23 who made the corrections. I don't know when that was done on that page.
24 I saw two different handwritings of which I know nothing. This is my
25 problem. I can speculate and I agree with you on the question that you
1 have just put to me, but I can't be certain because I don't know.
2 Q. You will agree with me, won't you, that on the last page it is
3 quite clear that that document was received by the Bratunac Brigade?
4 A. Based on the stamp, I would say, yes, it was received by the
5 Bratunac Brigade.
6 Q. Mr. Nikolic, do you know who Dragoslav Trisic was or is?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up
9 65 ter 1D01007, e-court page 79. This is the transcript of
10 Mr. Dragoslav Trisic's evidence in the Popovic case on the
11 20th of October, 2008.
12 Q. To -- the question:
13 [As read] "Q. Tell me, please, you identified this handwriting
14 in the upper margin as the handwriting of Captain Momir Nikolic; is that
15 the case?
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. You were personally there when he wrote this, right?
18 "A. Well, I recognise his handwriting.
19 "Q. Do you know when he wrote this?
20 "A. Well, I suppose that he did it on the day when we received
21 the aforementioned document."
22 So let's stop there. That was from the transcript. What is your
23 position with regard to the statement provided by Mr. Trisic?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I would object, Your Honour, because he's already
1 answered question of whether it's his handwriting, and I -- based on the
2 discussion we had earlier, I don't know if it's -- there is any point in
3 him commenting on what or why Mr. Trisic testified this way.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said it's not his handwriting although
5 it has similarity. That is what the witness told us.
6 If you have any further questions to the witness, please put them
7 to him, Mr. Petrusic.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into
9 evidence, please?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Which document?
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter -- I apologise,
12 65 ter 14717, which is the Drina Corps order that we discussed.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We saw 1D1006. Okay. Thank you. It was my
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection to 14717, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And again I have not written it down. Is that the
18 Drina Corps order, the six pages with the handwriting on it?
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14717 receives number D302,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 One of the thoughts that came to my mind, not only looking at the
1 handwritten portion but also at, for example, the -- striking through
2 parts of the text which on the last page, which, by the way, doesn't
3 appear clearly in the translation, that this may have been a document
4 which was received and then was -- further work was done on it perhaps to
5 convey the order to lower-level units. That's a thought that came into
6 my mind and which I want to share with the parties because if they have
7 any comments on it, then I'd like to hear from them. And it is
8 especially that the change of times at the very end of the order could
9 serve such a purpose.
10 I leave it to that. But, of course, the Chamber has to
11 understand what this document is about.
12 Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at
14 65 ter 05803, please.
15 Q. Mr. Nikolic, you recognise the document. This is the order for
16 active combat operations issued by the 1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade on
17 the 5th of July, 1995. On the last page you will see that it's signed by
18 Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic.
19 First I would like to ask you if this order came about as the
20 result of an order by the Drina Corps dated the 2nd of July?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And this order by the Bratunac Brigade command, was it drafted by
23 all the command organs?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you please tell me who provides the commander with estimates
1 of enemy strength?
2 A. Intelligence organs.
3 Q. And that is you?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. And in this case, did Commander Blagojevic ask you for an
6 estimate on the enemy strength?
7 A. No.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Now we're going to move to
9 page 10 -- actually, page 4 in the Serbian version, paragraph 10, and
10 then in the English version it's page 5. Item 5 [as interpreted] begins
11 with combat security and intelligence security. Can we look at page 5 of
12 the B/C/S version, please.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's not item 5 but item 10 on page 5.
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Item 10 on page 5, yes, that is
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Item 10 on page 5, not the other way around.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
18 Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation.
19 Q. Mr. Nikolic, this item 10, intelligence security, who proposes
20 that to the commander?
21 A. The intelligence security organ.
22 Q. And in this specific case that was done by you?
23 A. It should have been me but I did not do it.
24 Q. And can you please tell me who did?
25 A. If the Court permits me, I would just like to clarify absolutely
1 because I can see that we are struggling with both of the orders, so I
2 would like to ask for three minutes to explain exactly what happened and
3 then everything will be clear.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you could try to do it in one minute, that would
5 be appreciated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best.
7 When an order is written or a commander's decision, regardless of
8 whether it's at the corps or brigade level -- anyway I'm going to speak
9 now about the Bratunac Brigade --
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, for
11 interrupting the witness, and you did give him the time, but I do
12 apologise. I would just like to ask you to stop the witness in as far as
13 his testimony could focus on some kind of expert evidence. What I would
14 like to limit him to is just to say "yes" or "no" and say whether he took
15 part in the drafting of this item or not, and if he did not, then he
16 could say who drafted the -- that part, that item.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is precisely what I am going
18 to talk about. This is precisely what I am going to say.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so. I had not the feeling that any
20 expert evidence was coming up, but could you tell us who, then, drafted
21 this order?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The complete - the complete - order
23 for the use of the units of the Bratunac Brigade was written by the
24 commander of my brigade, Colonel Blagojevic. This order is -- there are
25 two ways to write an order. There are two ways to actually draft an
1 order of this kind. The first way is the regular procedure when the
2 brigade commander, together with his assistants, sits in the office and
3 on the basis of the Drina Corps commander's order prepares his own order
4 for the engagement of his own units. And then in this regular procedure,
5 this is done when you have enough time at your disposal, then each
6 assistant commander, as part of the commander's order that he would sign,
7 gives his contribution.
8 I as the intelligence organ would make my contribution. That
9 would be the first item of the order, that would be the data about the
10 enemy. And then as part of that same order, I would also give two other
11 things to the commander and that would be the proposal by -- for
12 intelligence security protection or support and then the proposal for
13 security support. I propose that to the commander and I also take part
14 in the writing of the order for the use of reconnaissance units. These
15 are things that are done in the regular procedure.
16 Since we received the order on the 2nd of July, and we were
17 supposed to be ready for attack on the 6th of July at 4.00 a.m., then my
18 commander - this is very important - my commander participated the entire
19 time in the preparation of the order of the Drina Corps command. He went
20 there and he took part in the preparation of the Drina Corps order so
21 that my commander had all of these things that had to do with the -- my
22 part of the job, that would be paragraph 1, data about the enemy, and
23 intelligence and security support, which was also supposed to have had
24 come from me.
25 So he returned to Bratunac and then my commander used his
1 discretionary powers, and on the basis of teamwork in which he
2 participated at the Drina Corps level, he used his discretionary right
3 and wrote, on the basis of the Drina Corps order, his order. He just
4 extracted the tasks entrusted to the Bratunac Brigade and he wrote his
5 order for the Bratunac Brigade. So that would be a truncated procedure.
6 It does not imply all of the above. He can consult his assistants in the
7 truncated procedure, but if he has sufficient information about all the
8 combat-readiness elements, then he can write the order himself.
9 In both cases - this is a very important sentence - in both
10 cases, the brigade commander -- you can suggest whatever you want at this
11 joint meeting, the brigade commander can accept your proposal or
12 suggestion, he can accept a part of it, or he can reject your entire
13 proposal and say, "I have decided ..." When the commander says, "I have
14 decided ...," then everything that you've said before is done with. The
15 commander makes his decision. There are no more proposals and
17 So I have tried my best to clarify this whole matter. I hope
18 that it was worth it.
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You are trying to say that he wrote the entire order, Blagojevic,
21 based on the information that he had at his disposal?
22 A. Yes, I am saying that that was the result of his decision.
23 Q. Mr. Nikolic, do you see that this order that we can see on our
24 screens states that the sector of Pribicevac was assigned as the sector
25 where the prisoners should gather and that is added by hand in the
1 Drina Corps order?
2 A. I see that.
3 Q. And was this done by Colonel Blagojevic in the Bratunac Brigade
5 A. Everything that is in this order is something that was his
6 responsibility. He was the commander. He's the only person authorised
7 to sign the order and he did sign it.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Can we now go back to the last
9 page of this order.
10 Q. And we will see that the Pribicevac IKM of the brigade became
11 functional or operational from 1200 hours. Do you need to look at the
12 previous order by the Drina Corps on the screen which states that the
13 IKM - it was crossed out - of the brigade was in the Pribicevac sector.
14 And then 1600 hours was crossed out, and then 1200 hours was written by
15 hand. Do you need to look at that order on your screen to compare the
17 A. No, there is no need for that.
18 Q. So did Commander Blagojevic, as you say, make these changes and
19 include them entirely in his order based on the changes made in the
20 Drina Corps order?
21 A. Well, I did not make that kind of comparison, but what I see is
22 more or less defined also in the Drina Corps order only with different
23 times. I think the time there is different.
24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender
25 65 ter 05803.
1 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05803 receives number D303,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Nikolic, from the -- the attack on Srebrenica started on the
7 6th of July and the forward command post of the Bratunac Brigade was
8 located at Pribicevac from that time; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you at Pribicevac?
11 A. Before the 6th, yes. After the 6th, no.
12 Q. And from the 6th to the 11th?
13 A. No, I was not at Pribicevac then.
14 Q. Are you able to tell us, as briefly as possible, whether you were
15 stationed at the Bratunac Brigade command during that period?
16 A. Not for the Bratunac Brigade command. I was dealing or
17 responsible for the area of responsibility of my unit, including the
18 check-point at Zuti Most.
19 Q. Did you have information about when General Mladic would arrive
20 at the Bratunac Brigade area of responsibility during the combat
22 A. I cannot tell you precisely when I got information the first time
23 that he would arrive, but I know approximately when they announced that
24 General Mladic would come. I can tell by the combat. Combat was being
25 carried out along that axis. At the beginning there was some kind of
1 success by Serbian forces, and then perhaps on the second or third day,
2 but I cannot be sure about that, problems cropped up. I even think that
3 on that day, one or two Serbian soldiers were killed, one was seriously
4 wounded, and the operation halted. I don't know. I don't know what was
5 happening between General Krstic and the corps command along that line,
6 but I know that General Mladic arrived around that time when the
7 operation ground to a halt.
8 Q. And do you know that at that time there was a major storm in
9 Bratunac, Srebrenica, and the surrounding area, and that that was the
10 reason for halting the operation on the 7th and the 8th of July, 1995?
11 Do you remember that?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. And who informed you that General Mladic would come at that time?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly, but I did have information
15 that he was supposed to arrive. I don't remember who it was.
16 Q. And did you go then to secure the road from Konjevic Polje to
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. And did you secure the Bratunac-Pribicevac road which was taken
20 by General Mladic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell me, you did it again with a military police platoon?
23 A. I think that members of the military police were involved, and I
24 also think that elements of a reconnaissance platoon were also involved,
25 but I believe that the majority of them were military police.
1 Q. Did you meet General Mladic at Bratunac at that time?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Did you talk to General Mladic in the course of those days?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Your first conversation with him, according to you, took place in
6 Konjevic Polje?
7 A. No. My first encounter with General Mladic in that period was at
8 Hotel Fontana on the 11th of July.
9 Q. Are you trying to say that the two of you talked on that
11 A. What I want to say is that I met General Mladic when he arrived
12 at Hotel Fontana to attend the meeting.
13 Q. Did you report to him on that occasion?
14 A. No, I didn't. It was Colonel Jankovic.
15 Q. My question was: Did you talk to General Mladic on the
16 11th of July?
17 A. We greeted each other, General Mladic arrived, three of us met
18 him, and we exchanged some phrases that were an expression of good
19 manners but were irrelevant.
20 Q. When the war started in 1992 up until July 1995, how many times
21 did you have an opportunity to talk to General Mladic?
22 A. I believe it happened on two occasions: Once when I was summoned
23 to Crna Rijeka, and I believe that it had to do with talks about the
24 enclave boundaries, and I brought a report on that issue with me that had
25 been requested from me to provide. And the next time, I think it was in
1 1994, when General Mladic visited my brigade and I was in his escort when
2 he visited the 2nd Infantry Battalion.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nikolic, the simple question was: How many
4 times. The answer, the simple answer is: Two times. If Mr. Petrusic
5 wants to know more, then he'll ask you about it.
6 Mr. Petrusic, because the subject matter may be totally
7 irrelevant. Please proceed.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll do my best.
9 Q. Mr. Nikolic, in the agreement on facts and acceptance of
10 responsibility, paragraph 9, you said:
11 "I spent about 45 minutes in Konjevic Polje prior to the arrival
12 of General Mladic. He arrived there by car from the direction of
13 Bratunac and he stopped at an intersection at Konjevic Polje. He
14 alighted from the vehicle, and we met in the middle of the road. I
15 reported to him and said that there were no problems. He looked around
16 him and he saw prisoners. Some of those prisoners asked him what was
17 going to happen to them, to which he responded that all of them would be
18 taken away from there and that they shouldn't worry."
19 This is what you stated on the 6th of May, 2003.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I see that the staff is very active in
21 getting paragraph 9 on the screen, but since you have not given any
22 source they are still with the previous document. So if you could give a
23 number so that we can follow what you are reading and not look at
24 paragraph 9 of the former document.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise, Your Honours,
1 but speaking about the previous document, which is still on our screens,
2 which is 65 ter 14717, I would like to tender it into evidence.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We have admitted it already, Mr. Petrusic. I think
6 the two of them, the original Drina Corps order and this one,
7 Bratunac Brigade, were already admitted.
8 But if you would focus on what I asked you, that is to give the
9 number of the document you are reading from, then we could move on.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That's document D301. And that's
11 paragraph 9, the passage last but one.
12 Q. So, Mr. Nikolic, there is no need for me to read this paragraph
13 again. You can see it on your screen. And here you described your
14 encounter with General Mladic in the agreement. Although, yet again, you
15 never mentioned in this agreement that General Mladic, in response to
16 your question what would happen with them, made a certain movement with
17 his hand.
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days
20 or had another four interviews with the Prosecution. That was on the
21 28th, 29th, and 30th May, and 12th of July. Do you remember these
23 A. I remember that there were a lot of interviews. I cannot
24 remember every single one of them. But I did talk to the Prosecution
25 several times.
1 Q. And in these conversations, you never mentioned a certain gesture
2 that Mr. Mladic made with his hand with respect to what would happen to
3 those people.
4 A. I don't know if I demonstrated that or not, but if it's not
5 recorded, then I didn't.
6 Q. But do you remember, to the best of your recollection, when did
7 you first say or made such a gesture that General Mladic allegedly made
8 in Konjevic Polje?
9 A. I don't know exactly. Maybe in one of my testimonies, but I
10 don't know precisely when.
11 Q. Can you cite at least one reason why you failed to do that
13 A. I don't know. Probably nobody asked me about it. When I gave
14 evidence, I did my best to provide every possible detail about what
16 Q. Well, wouldn't you say that this alleged gesture with his hand
17 should have featured in all these interviews? Don't you think that you
18 should have mentioned it in every conversation that you had with regard
19 to the facts and responsibility?
20 A. Everything that is contained in the agreement was authored by my
21 defence counsel, and that was not the only oversight and lapse on their
22 part, and I ascribe responsibility to my lawyers. And it's a great
23 responsibility. They, themselves, admitted that they failed to do that,
24 and in their mutual correspondence they conceded to the fact that this
25 part that should have been formulated in a proper legal manner was not
1 done as it should have been done due to the fact -- and that was one of
2 the reasons why this is not contained here and why in my subsequent
3 statements I had to provide an accurate description of what I said.
4 There is no other explanation than that.
5 Q. Mr. Nikolic. Mr. Nikolic, I can agree with you that in your
6 subsequent statements you provided a lot of information that you
7 disagreed with. And you did that on the 27th of April, 2007, and to the
8 best of my recollection, all of that was accepted. In this supplementary
9 statement, you said that your encounter with General Mladic happened in
10 the way you described and that that was the moment when General Mladic
11 made the gesture in question.
12 A. No. That was not one of the corrections that I made because I
13 believed that it was not of any significance and that was probably the
14 reason why I never mentioned it.
15 Q. I suppose you will agree with me that this alleged gesture made
16 by General Mladic took place at Konjevic Polje, and it was a very
17 interesting, not to say key, moment both for the Prosecution and all
18 other concerned parties. Do you agree with that?
19 A. No, I don't think that to be a crucial piece of information or
20 anything else that would be valuable for the Prosecution. There are many
21 more other things in the gestures of your client that there -- this is
22 actually a minor thing.
23 Q. Mr. Nikolic, did you have an opportunity to see this statement
24 during the break? The statement that was put to you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you give it to the Registrar to be given to
1 Mr. Nikolic and then -- so that he could read it?
2 No. Then if no one cares about giving it to him, then he'll not
3 receive it.
4 Please proceed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never received any statement.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since I would not disallow that you give it for the
7 next break and then ask one or two questions after the break, but
8 preferably it should have been done already.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Nikolic, which vehicle did General Mladic use to get to
13 A. I don't know exactly because I didn't see him personally leave
14 for Pribicevac.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
16 questions for Mr. Nikolic and with this I would like to conclude my
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
19 I suggest that we take a break a little bit earlier, that you
20 provide -- Mr. Petrusic, that the Defence provides the witness with the
21 document that you had in mind, that is the statement of another witness,
22 as far as I understand. Could you also clearly indicate what portions
23 you would expect the witness to read, and then after the break, you'll
24 have another five minutes to put some questions on that.
25 And after that, Mr. Nicholls, you'll have an opportunity to
1 re-examine the witness.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. Just -- I have a hard
3 copy in the Serbian language if it -- if they need one, of this
5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Petrusic, that you'll gladly accept
6 this assistance.
7 Then could the usher give it -- but you can't indicate which
8 portions the witness should read --
9 MR. NICHOLLS: No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- isn't it?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So I suggest, Mr. Petrusic, do you have a hard copy
13 of the document in your own language? The document you wish the witness
14 to read.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone.
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any comments on it or is it a virgin
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The document is not exactly clear,
21 but the only comment is an indication which one of those is an English
22 version and which one is the Serbian version, but I should have made a
23 copy before anything was added by hand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nicholls, do you have a clean copy in the
25 Serbian or the B/C/S language?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated] I do have a clean
2 copy if --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, if -- then --
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry. I do have a clean copy that has nothing
6 on. I don't know if my friend wants to see it first.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the clean copy -- how long is the document?
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Three pages, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Three pages. Then I think it's a waste of time to
10 indicate what the witness should read.
11 Mr. Nikolic, you are invited to read all three pages during the
13 And could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom together
14 with the document.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we will resume at
17 five minutes past 12.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Nikolic, can you tell us, how far was General Mladic's escort
25 at the time when you purportedly reported to him at Konjevic Polje?
1 A. It was -- well, you know just as I do, what is the distance
2 between an officer and his escort, five steps, ten steps, up to 15.
3 That's standard procedure. There is nothing special about it.
4 Q. Did they ever get out of the vehicle?
5 A. Yes, they did.
6 Q. And you were a few steps in front of them as well as
7 General Mladic? I'm sorry.
8 A. I first walked towards General Mladic, and once I finished my
9 reporting to him, then we walked together some 20 paces towards the
10 people who were prisoners there.
11 Q. Do you agree that that was the only police check-point at this
12 intersection in Konjevic Polje?
13 A. There was another one in Kravica. But in Konjevic Polje, yes,
14 there was only one.
15 Q. At this police check-point or, rather, in that area, there were
16 no visible obstacles that would separate you and General Mladic from the
17 remaining personnel in the area?
18 A. No, there were not.
19 Q. The Defence position is -- because, sir, you also said that
20 General Mladic addressed the prisoners. Therefore, the Defence position,
21 Mr. Nikolic, is that at this location, at this point, there were no
22 visual -- visually noticeable imprisoned Muslims.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am going to quote a part of the
24 statement, 65 ter 1D01002. That is Mladen Blagojevic's statement, who
25 says on page 2, paragraph 4 --
1 JUDGE ORIE: First, is it clear, Mr. Petrusic, that you put this
2 to the witness as a follow-up - because you were given an opportunity to
3 discuss the documents with the witness - is this a follow-up on where the
4 witness said where Mr. Mladic addressed the prisoners or the men
5 detained, and now you are reading a portion of a statement which says
6 otherwise. Is that what we are at?
7 Then please have it on the screen so that we can follow the
8 reading and see something of the context and then read -- oh, it's
9 already. I apologise. It's already on the --
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That's English page 2,
11 paragraph 3, the last sentence, which reads --
12 Q. And Blagojevic says:
13 "At the intersection, there were no persons for who I could have
14 concluded that they were captured Muslims."
15 Mr. Nikolic, can you tell us, did Mr. Blagojevic have any reason
16 at all to claim otherwise or contrary to what you said?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nicholls.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Form of the question. I don't know that the
19 witness can tell us what was in Mr. Blagojevic's mind.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Petrusic wanted to ask whether
21 there is any fact known to this witness which might lead him -- which
22 might be relevant for understanding why Mr. Blagojevic gave a
23 different -- statement different from his account of the event.
24 That is what Mr. Petrusic apparently wanted to ask you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? Yes. I cannot answer this
1 question without mentioning one absurd statement from the statement --
2 or, rather, something that is absolutely untrue. In his statement,
3 Mr. Blagojevic said that he saw around 100 imprisoned Muslim in -- in
4 Sandici, and he also said that in Sandici, General Mladic got out of the
5 vehicle and addressed the Muslims. Then he arrived in Konjevic Polje
6 where, on the 13th, there was the largest number of Muslims who were
7 taken prisoner.
8 So to be precise, from Kamenica, Konjevic Polje, almost to the
9 Kuslat sector. So this is a pretty large area and the assertion that
10 Blagojevic, who were there, did not see any prisoner is -- is untrue
11 because they were there. It was impossible not to see them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are contesting the accuracy of the
13 statement. We leave it to that.
14 Mr. Petrusic.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Nikolic, those military policemen, were they in a position to
17 see everything that you and General Mladic gesticulated? Could they hear
18 and see or one of the two? What was going on during your encounter?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Focused question, please, Mr. Petrusic.
20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This refers to -- or, rather, in terms of where they were
22 vis-a-vis you and General Mladic, could military policemen see that
23 alleged gesture with his hand that General Mladic made?
24 A. They could see everything I did. They could see my encounter
25 with General Mladic. They could both see and hear my report, because I
1 did it quite loudly. Whether they did see on and hear everything, I
2 don't know. I don't know what they heard or saw. Whether they were
3 focused, whether they were paying enough attention, I wouldn't be able to
4 say that.
5 Q. In paragraph 5 on page 2, in English it's the fourth paragraph,
6 this same witness says, and I quote:
7 "I can also state that on that occasion, on the 13th of July, at
8 the intersection, I did not see Momir Nikolic talking to General Mladic
9 at the police check-point."
10 Further on:
11 "If Momir Nikolic is claiming to have met and spoken with
12 General Mladic at that location at the intersection in Konjevic Polje on
13 that day and that General Mladic then indicated to him with a motion of
14 the arm that the Muslims would be liquidated, I state categorically that
15 this is not true."
16 This is to be found in paragraph 5 of this statement.
17 Mr. Nikolic, what is your position vis-a-vis this paragraph?
18 A. My position vis-a-vis the entire statement is special. There are
19 parts - including this paragraph - which are absolutely incorrect, and
20 particularly this paragraph is incorrect. If I have to go through the
21 statement and tell you what is not correct, I am prepared to do that.
22 Q. No, that won't be necessary. I am here to put questions to you.
23 Will you allow for a possibility that while you were in Konjevic Polje,
24 you popped in to some of the nearby houses along the road?
25 A. No, I didn't do that.
1 Q. When you went to fetch Resid Sinanovic, did you enter the house
2 where he was?
3 A. As far as I can remember, Resid Sinanovic was brought by the
4 members of the police to my car, as far as I can remember. That was
5 18 years ago, and I'm speaking from memory. However, I knew that there
6 was some other detained Muslims in the same house where Resid Sinanovic
7 was. They were young and it was obvious they were members of the Muslim
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
10 tender this document into evidence, and that would be all I had for this
12 Q. Mr. Nikolic, I have no further questions for you. Thank you.
13 A. I apologise, am I supposed to return the statement to somebody?
14 JUDGE ORIE: The usher will take it back from you.
15 Mr. Petrusic, are you tendering this document for the -- for the
16 truth of its content, and then not whether Mr. Blagojevic said it but
17 whether what he said is to be relied upon? Is that the purpose?
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Bearing in mind that the primary
19 reason for the admission is the truthfulness of the statement which the
20 Defence deems to be true, this is the reason for admission. However,
21 bearing in mind that it's -- that the relevant parts of the transcript of
22 the statement have been quoted, in this case we can withdraw our motion
23 for admission.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because there might be a problem. The
25 statement is drawn -- was drafted for the purposes of this Tribunal, and
1 then Rule 92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater would apply as a lex specialis to the
2 general rules on evidence. But it being withdrawn, we don't need to pay
3 further attention to it.
4 Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. These were your questions.
5 Mr. Nicholls, any questions in re-examination?
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, just a few, Your Honours. I think my -- a
7 couple more questions came up at the end, but I think I will still be
8 less than half an hour.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
10 Q. Mr. Nikolic, let me go back -- let's talk about Konjevic Polje
11 and the gesture. I have to switch mics. At page 36 of the transcript
12 today, Mr. Petrusic quoted from paragraph 9 of your statement of facts
13 about your encounter with General Mladic at Konjevic Polje. Then at the
14 bottom of the page, line 24, going on to page 37, Mr. Petrusic read to
15 you that:
16 "There was no need to read the paragraph again."
17 And then said:
18 "Although, yet again, you never mentioned in this agreement that
19 General Mladic in response to your question what would happen to them,"
20 meaning the prisoners, "made a certain movement with his hand."
21 And then you answered:
22 "No, I didn't."
23 And then you were asked:
24 "After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days,
25 another four interviews, with the Prosecution. That was on the 28th,
1 29th, and 30th of May, and 12th July. Do you remember these
3 And you responded:
4 "I remember there were a lot of interviews. I can't remember
5 every single one of them, but I did talk to the Prosecution several
7 And then Mr. Petrusic made the assertion:
8 "And in these conversations, you never mentioned a certain
9 gesture that Mr. Mladic made with his hand with respect to what would
10 happen to those people?"
11 And you said you couldn't remember that.
12 Do you remember that bit of testimony recently? Actually,
13 whether you remember it or not, I'll just ask another question.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 1D01005. And we didn't have this in
15 e-court, but my friends uploaded it, so they had it and we're aware of
16 it. And the first page, please, in English and B/C/S.
17 Q. This is an information report from Mr. Bruce Bursik, who was an
18 investigator with the OTP at the time. Subject, interviews with you on
19 the 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, 2003. The same days Mr. Petrusic put to
20 you. The same month as your plea agreement.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Let's go to page 7 of the English and the B/C/S,
23 Q. And I know you had a lot of interviews with the OTP. This might
24 help you remember.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: It's toward the bottom of both pages on 7.
1 Q. I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but if we look at
2 it, clearly we can see that this page is discussing the events of
3 13 July 1995. If we look at the fourth paragraph from the bottom in the
4 English, third paragraph from the bottom in your language, Mr. Nikolic,
5 speaking of 13 July 1995, I'll read it out:
6 "Nikolic states that he was aware of the sporadic killings taking
7 place in Konjevic Polje.
8 "After meeting Mladic at Konjevic Polje, Nikolic states that he
9 asked Mladic what they were going to do with all those people (referring
10 to the prisoners). Mladic turned and gestured with his hand with a flat
11 wave. Nikolic states that he understood this gesture to mean that the
12 prisoners were to be killed."
13 Now that document uploaded by the Defence which they put to you
14 did not mention any hand gestures -- I'm sorry. Does that refresh your
15 recollection of when you mentioned this hand gesture to the OTP?
16 A. Of course this helps me. I've already stated that there were
17 quite a few of those meetings and interviews, and I think one of the
18 questions was whether I remember when it was when I mentioned it the
19 first time. And then I said, "No, I don't remember." But I accept that
20 Mr. Bursik was present and we discussed a lot of things. This was just a
21 working version, an interim version of the transcript of our interview,
22 just for the Trial Chamber's benefit. And amongst other things, I
23 mentioned what is recorded in this text.
24 Q. Thank you. Let me move on.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: I won't seek to tender that, Your Honours, because
1 I think I read out a sufficient portion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have read out the relevant portion.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Let's move on now to the witness statement of Mladen Blagojevic
5 that was just put to you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Which I think is 1D02002. If I could have that in
7 e-court, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me, 1D01002.
10 Q. Now on page 1, paragraph 1, we can see that this statement taken
11 by Mr. Petrusic on 23rd May of this year, that it concerns Mladen
12 Blagojevic, born 22 March 1971, in Bratunac, son of Radisav and Milosava,
13 nee Obaskic.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm done with that. I just wanted to establish
15 the date of birth and the father's -- parents' names.
16 Could I have 65 ter 28973, please. Page 1 of both.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said 65 ter 28973.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Now this is a verdict of the State Court in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 6th November 2008. And it's finding Mladen
22 Blagojevic, born on 22nd March 1971, in Bratunac, son of Radisav and
23 Milosava, nee Obaskic, guilty of crimes against humanity - if we go to
24 page 2 of both versions - as a result of crimes committed him on the
25 night of 13, 14 July, at the Vuk Karadzic school against Muslim
1 prisoners, shooting at them with a machine-gun, in fact.
2 If we go back to page 1, in the second paragraph where it says
3 "Verdict," there is a line on previous convictions, which shows that this
4 same Mladen Blagojevic was convicted for immigration fraud in the
5 United States on 20 September 2006, sentenced to 12 months in gaol,
6 suspended in order for his extradition to be tried in Bosnia.
7 Q. So we can see he was convicted for seven years for crimes against
8 humanity and he had a prior conviction for immigration fraud, which,
9 Mr. Nikolic, for your information, is perjury, lying on his immigration
11 And what I want to ask you, just to make it a bit briefer, since
12 it's nowhere in the statement offered by the Defence, were you aware or
13 did you know that Mladen Blagojevic had been convicted for crimes against
14 humanity for crimes committed against Muslims in July 1995 and that he
15 had been convicted of perjury?
16 A. I know that he was convicted for crimes of war and I know why,
17 obviously. But I did not know about that other thing, that he was
18 convicted in America for perjury, as you call it.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I would tender this brief excerpt.
20 It's four pages of the judgement.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28973 receives number P1517,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P1557 is --
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1517.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- I try to find it on the record. P1517
2 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
4 Q. Now let me move on, briefly, Mr. Nikolic. Just a couple of more
6 I am going to ask you a question now just about the issue of the
7 local staff, the staff of the organisations in the enclave. On the
8 3rd of June, a couple of days ago in this courtroom, at T 11972, line 8,
9 His Honour the Presiding Judge asked you in relation to the -- what
10 happened with the local staff:
11 "Do you know whether that happened, you referred to them leaving
12 and ending up in different countries, did all the local staff -- were
13 they treated in such a way they were free to go ... or were some of them
14 treated like the other able-bodied men who were often taken and brought
15 to various places?"
16 And you responded that the only case you recalled that was
17 different was that of the Nuhanovic family.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honour, I am now going to refer to this
19 trial, 17 July, at T 950 to 952, the testimony of Ms. Christine Schmitz
20 of MSF.
21 Q. Do you remember, just very simply, yes or no, if can, if you
22 remember a woman from Germany named Christine Schmitz who worked for MSF
23 in July 1995 in the enclave?
24 A. Yes, I remember her.
25 Q. Okay. In her testimony here, she described a man who worked for
1 MSF, a local staff member, a male, able-bodied, named Meho who chose not
2 to go with MSF into the DutchBat compound but who went with his family to
3 Potocari, and she described what happened to him.
4 My question was: Do you have any information or do you know
5 anything about a DutchBat worker named Meho being separated on 12 or
6 13 July in Potocari?
7 A. No, I don't. I haven't got that information at all.
8 Q. Okay. In that case I will leave it.
9 A. Very well.
10 Q. One last point. This is from 5th of June [sic], yesterday, I
11 think, at T 10296, line 19, to 10297, line 4, and you were asked a
12 question about the MUP units along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road, and
13 I want to ask you another -- a follow-up. This was a question from
14 Defence counsel.
15 "Mr. Nikolic, do you have any knowledge about the 13 of July and
16 who issued the order to the MUP special brigade to deploy along the
17 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road?"
18 And your answer was:
19 "What I know is that Borovcanin -- they issued -- they were given
20 the order to deploy along the road by Borovcanin and chief of centre,
21 Dragomir Vasic, I believe."
22 And then you were asked another question about whether they had
23 been ordered to take any prisoners.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P00724, please. While it's coming
25 up, just to save time I'll say this is an RS MUP special police report
1 dated 5 September 1995. Report on the combat engagement of the special
2 police brigade and other police forces in Operation Srebrenica 95 in the
3 period from 11 July to 21 July 1995.
4 Could we just go to the back, last page, please, of each version.
5 Q. And, sir, you can see that this was signed by the commander of
6 the MUP Specials at that time, Ljubisa Borovcanin.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Now could we go to page 2 of the English and the
9 Q. Do you remember if you've seen this document before?
10 A. Yes, I did see it.
11 Q. Now if we look at 12 July 1995, just to show the date, that we're
12 on that entry, 12 July, and go to the next page, please.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: And if we could have page 3 of the -- yes, thank
15 Q. So the part I'm interested in, in the English it's the third
16 paragraph from the top, it states, speaking of 12 July:
17 "I received an order from General Mladic to send half of my men
18 and the available technical equipment to that axis so as to block the
19 area and fight the aforementioned formation."
20 And actually I should have read the sentence above so that it
21 makes sense.
22 "In the afternoon hours, we received information from state
23 security employees that 12.000 to 15.000 able-bodied, mostly armed,
24 Muslims were moving from Srebrenica towards Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and
1 And then it discusses the order from General Mladic.
2 So my question is simply: Did you know about or can you comment
3 on Mr. Borovcanin's report that, in fact, he received an order from
4 General Mladic to deploy along the road?
5 A. I believe that I can comment on this part. There is a slight
6 disagreement, and I know exactly what Mr. Petrusic asked me yesterday.
7 He asked me who it was who had ordered the police units to be deployed on
8 that road, and I answered that the order had been issued to them directly
9 by Vasic or Borosevic -- Borovcanin, who was in command. I'm bearing
10 this in mind and I make a distinction between an order and a decision.
11 When it comes to the decision on the unit being deployed on that
12 road, it is a different issue. Obviously, I am aware of this
13 information. I have read the document. I don't have any doubts about
14 Mr. Borovcanin's statement, which means that he received his orders from
15 the officer in charge and that was General Mladic. He was in charge of
16 the entire operation surrounding Srebrenica.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Nicholls, you took us to a page of yesterday's
18 transcript. You said it was transcript 10296 and then 10297. That must
19 be a mistake. It should be 12096 and 12097, lines are correct.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: You're absolutely correct, Your Honour. I
21 apologise. That is what is written in my outline. I read it out wrong.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, whether it's an error on your part or
23 the transcription, most important is that it's corrected.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: That is correct.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it's even not the correct day.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Ah, well.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yesterday was not the 5th of July. It's today --
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Then --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Of June, sorry.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It was the 4th of June where these pages appeared.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. And I hope the quote was correct,
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are no other problems with this quote.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: I have no further redirect. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
11 Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Nikolic, at the beginning of your testimony
14 you testified about Glogova and the mass graves there, and I'm interested
15 to know who was the body who took the initiative for this removal of the
16 bodies? Was that anybody within the VRS or were the civilian authorities
18 A. Yes, Your Honour. What I know and what I already said in the
19 examination-in-chief is that the initiative was launched, the initiative
20 to relocate the graves by representatives of the civilian authorities. I
21 know exactly who these people are. That was the president of the
22 Bratunac Municipality Executive Board; the president of the Bratunac
23 municipality; and the president of the then-SDS party in Bratunac. They
24 were those who initiated the relocation of those two graves and their
25 transfer from the Bratunac municipality to the territory of the
1 Srebrenica municipality.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do I understand you correctly that they made this
3 proposal, they took this initiative, but the action itself was ordered by
4 somebody else?
5 A. All I can say is -- give you an affirmative answer as far as the
6 army is concerned, that it went down that line. I received the order or,
7 rather, my brigade did, to engage on that assignment based on a military
8 order and that was when Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic came to the
9 Bratunac Brigade and informed us of the decision. That's what I know. I
10 don't know how the actual agreement went at higher levels above.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I refer back to page 11966. In one of the
12 questions there was a quote:
13 "'We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the Army of
14 Republika Srpska Main Staff ...'"
15 Is that what you recall?
16 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions.
19 Mr. Petrusic, has the re-examination triggered any need for
20 further questions to the witness?
21 It seems that Mr. Mladic would like to consult with counsel.
22 Could you do it at such a volume that ...
23 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear Mr. Mladic speaking from here, so that
25 should not happen.
1 Mr. Petrusic.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] With your permission,
3 Your Honours.
4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Petrusic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, who are those three people from the
6 civilian authorities that you mentioned when you answered the Judge's
8 A. The president of the municipality at the time, from whom the
9 initiative came, is Ljubisav Simic, the president of the municipality;
10 then Srbislav Davidovic was the president of the Executive Board; and
11 Miroslav Deronjic was the president of the SDS Municipal Board.
12 Q. And finally, you will agree with me that commands are not issued
13 by gestures or by hand. They are verbally articulated?
14 A. Yes, I agree. I know how commands are issued.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 This then, Mr. Nikolic, concludes your testimony in this court.
18 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
19 answered all the questions during a few days, all the questions that were
20 put to you by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return
22 The witness can be escorted out of the courtroom.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lindsey. Ms. Lindsey, thank you for being with
1 us and assisting the Chamber in performing its task and you're excused.
2 One last question, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Petrusic, were you aware of
3 the portion which was quoted by Mr. Nicholls about the witness in one of
4 the interviews referring to a gesture made by Mr. Mladic?
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone please, Mr. Petrusic.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know what
9 was the translation in the transcript. My question to Mr. Nikolic was
10 when was it that he mentioned that gesture for the first time and
11 whether --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, that's not --
13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, I want an answer to my question.
15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I was. I was.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You were aware of that?
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless you bothered the witness by asking him
19 why he had not said anything about such an important thing, and you spent
20 quite some time on it. You suggested to him that he never had mentioned
21 any such gesture and it was only in re-examination that the Chamber
22 learned about what was said.
23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my whole intention
24 was to see why he did not say that while the plea agreement was being
25 drafted. That's the essence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrusic, correct me when my recollection is
2 wrong. You referred to four days of interviews, exactly the same days
3 Mr. Nicholls was referring to, and you suggested that he had not said any
4 word about such a gesture even in those interviews. I think you
5 mentioned them one by one, 29th, 30th, 31st of May. And you suggested to
6 him that he had not mention the gestures in any of those interviews,
7 isn't it?
8 We'll check the transcript. We'll check the transcript. But
9 this is -- if what my recollection tells me is true, Mr. Petrusic. But I
10 will not comment on it. We'll first check in the transcript. We'll do
11 that perhaps during the next break and I would like you to remain in the
12 courtroom, to be present as well after the break.
13 Could --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not take the break yet. We'll do that at
16 quarter past, 15 to 20 minutes after that.
17 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: We are, Mr. President. And good afternoon to
19 you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the
22 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Ms. Gallagher.
25 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Unnecessary to remind you that you are still bound
2 by the solemn declaration you have given.
3 THE WITNESS: I am hearing it in B/C/S. Yeah. Yeah.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps unnecessary to remind you, but I still do.
5 You are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the
6 beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole
7 truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 Mr. Vanderpuye, you are touching upon a new subject. You may
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I am not going to explain again to the witness who
12 you are.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, very kindly, Mr. President. Good
14 morning again, Your Honours.
15 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
16 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
17 Q. And good morning, Ms. Gallagher.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you make it afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye, then
19 we are on one line again, yes.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's been a long morning, indeed. Thank you,
21 Mr. President.
22 Q. Good afternoon. You mentioned in your previous testimony on the
23 1st of March, 2013, at transcript pages 9418 through 9419, that one of
24 tasks as an investigator was to assist in the preparation of certain
25 witnesses and exhibits. And I'd like to follow-up on that today with
1 respect to one document in particular and that's 65 ter 28975.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we could just have that up on the screen.
3 Q. I'll have you identify it for the Chamber and then I'd like to --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, with your leave, I'd like to
5 distribute hard copies of this exhibit as well once the -- once
6 Ms. Gallagher has identified it for the record.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document is not in e-court.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Did I misspeak?
10 THE REGISTRAR: 28975.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Perhaps it hasn't been released. Just a moment.
13 It seems we have got some technical -- well, I think it's obvious
14 we have some technical problems, Mr. President. I'm not sure how long it
15 will take to resolve. I can proceed with the hard copy in the interim.
16 The Defence has received it. Oh, we have it now? Okay. I apologise,
17 Mr. President. Okay. I think we have it now. Okay.
18 Q. All right. Do you recognise what we have on the screen now,
19 Ms. Gallagher?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Could you just describe what it is, just very briefly, and then I
22 will -- I would like to publish it to the Chamber to have a hard copy of
24 A. As you see, it's "The Bosnian Muslim Photo Identification Book."
25 It's a book that represents the Bosnian men that were identified as
1 missing or alive, captured from video footage of July 12th and 13th in
2 Potocari and also near the Sandici meadow, along the
3 Kravica-Konjevic Polje road.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if I may, I'd like to hand-up the
6 hard copies of this exhibit to the Chamber.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I may proceed, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You may.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
11 Q. Let me just ask a couple of background questions in relation to
12 this exhibit. First, can you tell us when you became involved in the
13 development of this particular exhibit?
14 A. I briefly became involved in 2007 when I was working on the
15 Popovic trial, and then again in 2009 when I was working on the Tolimir
17 Q. And in relation to your involvement with this exhibit, can you
18 tell us, just generally because we'll probably touch on it a little bit
19 later, what was the objective of your assignment?
20 A. The book has remained the same since it was created in 2003. My
21 role was to actually make sure that it was accurate as well as to update
22 any information such as the missing men that are identified in the book
23 as to what their status is now, are they still missing, or have they been
24 found dead.
25 Q. You mentioned that it was created in 2003. To your knowledge,
1 has this book been used in other proceedings before the Tribunal?
2 A. Correct. I believe it was created for the Blagojevic trial and
3 it was used in the Popovic trial as well as the Tolimir trial.
4 Q. Were you involved in the updating of the book in either of those
5 trials; that is, the Popovic or Tolimir trials?
6 A. Yes, in both trials.
7 Q. If you could, could you just tell the Chamber, just in general
8 terms, what the purpose of this book is?
9 A. It is meant to identify the men that are seen in two videos that
10 were taken at the time of the fall of Srebrenica or shortly after on
11 July 12th and 13th; in particular, they were men that had been separated
12 out in Potocari that are seen on the video, and the -- the investigation
13 team, as early as 1996, were trying to find out what happened to those
14 men. At the same time, there is footage from July 13th, both in Potocari
15 and near the Sandici meadow, and there are men that had been separated
16 out as well as men that had been captured and guarded in the meadow on
17 July 13th, and the team was trying to identify what happened to those
19 Q. Now you've indicated a number of men that are featured in this
20 book. Can you tell us how many, for the purposes of identification, are
21 considered in the book?
22 A. There are 31 men identified in the book.
23 Q. And you indicated that the stills or the photographs in the book
24 are derived from certain video footage. Have you had an opportunity to
25 review that footage yourself?
1 A. Yes, I've looked at both videos that these photographs have been
2 captured from.
3 Q. And do the photographs that are in the book correspond to the
4 video footage that you reviewed?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now I just want to ask you just a couple of questions.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: And we can go to page number 3 in e-court, it
8 should be, to take a look at the table of contents. It should be the
9 same, I think, in the B/C/S -- or, rather, the B/C/S is the following
10 page. So we'll have to split the screen, if we can, with the same
11 exhibit, and we'll see the B/C/S on page number 4. Okay. And here we
12 can see the index or the table of contents of the book.
13 Q. Can you just tell us generally or walk us through what it shows.
14 A. As you see, the book is basically broken up into seven sections.
15 The bulk of the book is what's seen in part one, which is the
16 identifications of missing men. Part two are the identifications of men
17 that have been found alive. And then there are seven annexes. The first
18 two annexes comprise all the statements and identifications made by
19 family members, neighbours, friends, who actually identified the
20 photographs and the missing men. The second annex is similar, those
21 statements of friends, relatives, neighbours, who identify the men or the
22 men themselves who identified the men as survivors. Annex 3 you'll see
23 is the testimony of Pasaga Mesic, the chief of police of Tuzla, and his
24 transcript from the Rule 61 hearing of Karadzic and Mladic in 1996. And
25 the two annexes after that are associated with his testimony of the
1 photos he used to show the witnesses who identified the men. And then
2 annex six and seven are communications that the ICTY had with Bosnian
3 authorities regarding some of the men that had been identified both in
4 trying to locate them in order to interview the families, and the seventh
5 annex, those actually that had been found alive.
6 Q. All right. Now with respect to the -- your assignment to update
7 the contents of this exhibit, can you tell the Chamber basically how you
8 did it and what materials you relied on in order to do so?
9 A. I started with the book as is -- as it was created, so the
10 content that you see of the photographs, of the identifications. I read
11 all of the statements that support the identifications. So the -- the
12 annex 1 and 2, the tables that are in the book, it's a listing of all the
13 statements of the neighbours, relatives, friends that identified the men.
14 I read those supporting statements. Those were statements taken in 1996
15 in Tuzla, as well as follow-up interviews done by the ICTY and the
16 Srebrenica team, and that was in June of 2000. So those are two separate
17 sets of statements that I read.
18 I also watched the videos. I looked up the photographs that were
19 mentioned in all of the statements. In addition, I read, of course, the
20 testimony of Pasaga Mesic and others that have testified in some form or
21 another about this book. I also looked up the -- I verified the missing
22 men on the ICRC missing persons list and the ICTY Srebrenica missing
23 person list, and checked with the ICMP database to see if any of those
24 men have been found, if the remains have been found in any of the graves.
25 And in addition, where we did have the documents, I read the autopsy
1 reports and looked at some of the exhumation reports and photographs of
2 the men that had been found in graves.
3 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gallagher. With respect to the Rule 61 testimony
4 of Pasaga Mesic that we have indicated here in annex 3, can you tell us
5 how that was or to what extent that was used by you in relation to your
6 assignment to update the information contained in the book as to the
7 status of the people that are identified in it?
8 A. Pasaga Mesic's testimony is regarding the -- these underlining
9 statements that he had obtained during his investigation in terms of
10 trying to identify the men. So though I read his testimony, I went
11 directly to the statements myself, just to read them individually. So
12 they -- they -- they correspond, it's what he had -- had used for his
14 Q. All right. And we'll take a look at some of those in just a
15 little bit. Did you rely on any other information besides the ICRC, ICMP
16 lists, for example, the autopsy reports or exhumation photographs, things
17 of that nature, in relation to determining or confirming whether somebody
18 was still missing or, in fact, dead?
19 A. Yes. As I just mentioned, I had looked at autopsy reports, had
20 looked at exhumation reports, had looked at exhumation photographs, in
21 addition to all the other documents that I mentioned.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I saw that you are looking at the
23 clock as I did.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was indeed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: As many others did.
1 We'll take a break first and we'll resume at five minutes --
2 25 minutes to 2.00. But could the witness first be escorted out of the
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Who is it -- will it be you, Mr. Ivetic, who will
6 deal with the next witness -- with this witness?
7 MR. IVETIC: This witness, Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is Mr. Lukic still around, to your knowledge?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He was in the office. He was
10 working. I don't know if he's still here or if he's working in the
12 JUDGE ORIE: If he would still be here, the Chamber might need
13 him immediately after the break, so that would take in 15 or 20 minutes
14 from now. We are not certain about that yet. It depends on what we'll
15 discuss during the break. If he would still be around, then could you
16 ask him to still remain standby. If not, then we'll find a solution for
17 it later.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Time flies. Let's resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic is not present.
23 Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague Lukic
25 is in the office, and due to the shortness of time, we didn't manage to
1 get him to come to the courtroom.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I specifically ask you as co-counsel to
3 pay full attention to the matter the Chamber will raise at this moment
4 with Mr. Petrusic.
5 Mr. Petrusic, the Chamber is concerned about what happened in
6 cross-examination in relation to the gesture issue, if I may call it that
7 way. But as always, most important is first to establish what happened.
8 Therefore, I go with you through the transcript. You referred,
9 transcript page 36, you started referring to the statements of facts, and
10 then you said:
11 "After this agreement was concluded, you spent another four days
12 for interviews," and then you mentioned the dates on which these
13 interviews were held; that is, the 28th, 29th, and 30th of May, and the
14 12th of July.
15 The Chamber understands this to be a reference to the year 2003.
16 Is that well understood by the Chamber? The documents are not evidence
17 so we have -- is that 2003? Okay.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Having established that, the witness said that there
20 were a lot of interviews and that he talked to the Prosecution several
22 Then your next question was:
23 "And in these conversations," these were the conversations after
24 the agreement had been concluded, "you never mentioned a certain gesture
25 that Mr. Mladic made with his hands with respect to what would happen to
1 those people."
2 The Chamber cannot but conclude that you were misrepresenting
3 what is found in the statements given on those days because we do
4 understand that you were aware, as you told us before the break, that
5 there was a passage in which this gesture was specifically mentioned. Is
6 that a proper understanding of what happened? If you say it's -- this is
7 not what I said or -- because it's translated, then please tell us and
8 we'll verify that on the basis of -- of the audio.
9 Was this your question?
10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection as far as the
11 interpretation goes. The interpretation is correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we establish that that is the question
13 that you put to the witness at that point in time.
14 The witness answered that question, saying, well, depends on if
15 it's -- if it's not recorded, I may now have said it, but he had no clear
17 And then you asked him to the best of his recollection:
18 "When did you first say or made such a gesture that
19 General Mladic allegedly made in Konjevic Polje?"
20 The witness said:
21 "I don't know exactly. Maybe in one of the testimonies, but I
22 don't know precisely when."
23 Here the witness apparently -- of my testimonies, yes. Your
24 question then was:
25 "Can you cite at least one reason why you failed to do that
2 The Chamber therefore has to consider what "before" means in this
3 context, "before" meaning before even the first of any of the testimonies
4 of the witness.
5 Now, as far as the Chamber is aware, this witness gave his first
6 testimony before this Tribunal in September and early October 2003. Is
7 there any dispute about that?
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then also agree with me that a suggestion
10 to the witness that he never mentioned it before the moment he suggested
11 as perhaps the first moment he would have mentioned it, that you were
12 aware that he had mentioned it, that is, in one of these interviews in
13 one of those days? And that, therefore, for a second time you suggested
14 to him that he had not said anything about this gesture where you knew
15 that he had done so?
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you allow me a
17 few sentences in relation to this matter.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you focus on the matters -- if you want to
19 say anything about that -- later in the cross-examination that you
20 referred rather to, "Why haven't you told that in all of the interviews,
21 why have you not always said it," that is -- is well noticed by the
22 Chamber, but that does not change the fact in any way that in the first
23 two questions, that you clearly suggested that the witness had never said
24 or has never referred to a gesture during these interviews and that he
25 had never referred to such a gesture before he testified for the first
1 time in this Tribunal. Both suggestions which are completely wrong.
2 We noticed that in the follow-up it went slightly different. If
3 you keep this in mind, please add anything briefly what you would like to
4 bring to our attention.
5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The whole problem arose due to the
6 badly phrased question, i.e., that I failed to exclude the 12th of June
7 as one of the interview dates. My intention was to focus on the first
8 three interviews and the failure by Mr. Nikolic to mention this in the
9 first three interviews. Of course, the second error followed the first
10 error, but I must say that it was never my intention to do this on
11 purpose or to mislead the witness. I am simply trying to explain to you
12 and to convince you that my first question was not limited to the first
13 three days of interviews after the -- the agreement, that is the 28th,
14 29th, and the 30th, and after that everything tumbled down as -- as a
16 I repeat that my intention with regard to Mr. Nikolic and
17 especially towards the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution was not an
18 ill-conceived one. The facts that you cited, there is nothing there that
19 I can dispute.
20 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly have a look again at 1D101 -- 10 --
23 I'll restart. I'll restart. I'll restart.
24 Could we again have a look at 1D01005.
25 The Chamber just wanted to check what the date of this document
1 is. It is the 23rd of June, and the -- and the -- it refers to
2 interviews held on the 28th, the 29th, and the 30th of May.
3 And could we just go through the document. You have -- it was in
4 your list, Mr. Petrusic. Could you tell us where the interview of the
5 12th of July starts?
6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] It is a separate report dated the
7 12th of July regarding the interview that Mr. Nikolic had with
8 Bruce Bursik, and this report refers to the first three days. And the
9 12th of July report follows this one.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is it --
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] And in one of those --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I was just trying to find where we see what happened
13 on the 12th of July. You had it on our screen previously. So if you
14 could -- then it is -- this document exclusively refers to the three
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember on which page the 12th of July
18 report, at least the report of the interview, starts, Mr. Petrusic?
19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I think that after all these
20 interviews, i.e., after the 30th of May, there is a follow-up document
21 dated the 12th of July, and I think that it's on page 7, although I'm not
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Could we have a look at page 7 of this
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I am not sure about the page.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We can look at the transcript of -- yes. So in the
2 same document, the sixth paragraph of page 7, we see that reference is
3 made -- yes.
4 Mr. Petrusic, is the translation into English, is that where it
5 clearly describes the gesture. Is there any problem with that
6 translation or is that translation not in dispute?
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: There is no dispute about the translation, I do
11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, and this is the interview of
12 the 12th of June.
13 JUDGE ORIE: June or July?
14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] June.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we see that this is the 12th of June? Do
16 you know the page?
17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] On the first page, if we go back
18 seven pages -- at least that's the document that I had reviewed.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the -- the Chamber would like to receive a
20 hard copy of the document -- both the document on the -- you said you
21 were aware of that a gesture was referred to by the witness and --
22 Mr. Groome, we do see that Mr. Nicholls referred to a document and read
23 part of it. That seems to be this document.
24 So if there is any other document as a source, Mr. Petrusic, on
25 which you relied in this context, please tell us. The Chamber, by the
1 way, doesn't need a hard copy of this document because it's known by its
2 65 ter number in e-court; therefore, the Chamber can -- can further look
3 into it.
4 The Chamber considered it important to verify, at least, what
5 exactly happened and what are the documents that were relied upon by the
6 parties in this context. The Chamber will further consider the matter
7 and has taken notice of the fact that you have said that there was no bad
8 intention. You have explained what in your view happened. We'll further
9 consider the matter.
10 Having dealt with the matter, I think we could invite the witness
11 to be escorted into courtroom.
12 Thank you, Mr. Petrusic.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, you had to wait bit longer than you
15 were expected, but that's how life sometimes is.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, you may continue.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Good afternoon again, Ms. Gallagher.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could have in e-court, please,
20 65 ter 28975, which is the -- the identification book.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There is a lot of noise and sound. It may be a
22 technical matter because even if everyone seems to be frozen, it still is
24 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
1 And we'll have to go back to -- no, actually, we can go a little
2 bit ahead. And we'll have to go to page 5, which should be the index of
3 identified individuals. All right.
4 Q. First I just wanted to confirm with you, if I may, Ms. Gallagher,
5 that this is the list of 31 identified individuals that you were dealing
6 with in the preparation or updating of this material.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. The second thing I wanted to ask you was, you'd indicated that
9 you had looked at a number of documents and that included autopsy
10 reports, photos, ICRC records, ICMP records. First, did you rely
11 exclusively on that information or did you compare that information
12 amongst each other to determine whether or not it was reliable?
13 A. No, I looked at everything in its totality in order to rely upon
15 Q. And did you find the materials in general that you relied on in
16 terms of updating this exhibit and confirming the status of the
17 individuals listed here, did you find the material you relied on to be
19 A. Yes, I believe it was reliable.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could just now go to page 7 in the
22 B/C/S -- I'm sorry, 7 in the exhibit. And that's page 2 in the B/C/S
23 translation, which just translates the text. I'd like to start there.
24 Q. Here we can see three individuals. We can see their names so I
25 won't read them. And we can see they have been identified in a manner --
1 in a number of manners. Can you just walk us through on what this shows,
2 that is in terms of identification of these individuals, as it relates to
3 your assignment concerning updating this information?
4 A. Well, first of all, I see that it comes from the Petrovic
5 footage, so I watched the -- the footage to be able to make sure that I
6 could identify them in -- in realtime walking past. I verified that the
7 photograph was the same photograph that was shown to the witnesses. I
8 read the statements that you see underneath each name when it says,
9 "Identified by his wife," "his nephew," I read all of those underlying
10 statements. And then I searched -- I checked the ICMP missing persons
11 list, and I checked the ICMP database to see if they turned up there.
12 And I also looked for them in our internal database, our ZyFIND system,
13 to see if we had any further documentation, whether there was autopsy
14 reports or exhumation reports or photographs of the individuals.
15 Q. And just to put this in a bit of context, you indicated that you
16 reviewed certain video footage with respect to it; is that right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Okay. And what I'd like to do in just a minute is to show the
19 Chamber a video footage.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could, that's 65 ter 22287. And I'd like
21 to play just about 30 seconds or so of that footage. We'll start at the
22 time 00:00:54 through 00:01:24 or thereabout. Now --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Vanderpuye, is it triple 2 or double 2,
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have 22287, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Yup. I
1 apologise. Yes, 22287, Your Honour.
2 If we're queued up, we can play it, then. I'll ask you to stop
3 at some point, Ms. Stewart, but for the moment we can get going. Thank
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I've just played and I've stopped it
7 just briefly here at 1 minute, 12.4 seconds.
8 Q. First, can you just describe for us the context? What are we
9 seeing here, based on your knowledge of the investigation and your
10 experience in this case?
11 A. This is in Potocari and the men and women have been moved along,
12 being ushered either to the right or to the left, to trucks or to buses,
13 in order to be moved out of the area.
14 Q. All right. If we can -- and is this the footage, by the way,
15 that you reviewed in relation to your assignment concerning this exhibit,
16 the book?
17 A. That's correct. And at the beginning you would have seen the
18 exact footage that lines up with the photograph that you have in the book
19 there, to the right.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can just play this through, very quickly,
22 through 1 minute, 24 seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Here we've stopped at 1 minute, 24.3
1 Q. And it's a bit blurry, but can you tell us what we're seeing in
2 this frame?
3 A. Here you're seeing the women that are lined up alongside the
4 trucks. And just prior you saw it was the men walking alongside.
5 Q. All right.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can just go back now to 65 ter -- just one
7 moment, I'm sorry. If we can go back to 65 ter 28975. And we'll go back
8 to page 7.
9 Mr. President, I understand that the video footage that I just
10 showed is not yet admitted in evidence. I would like to tender it in
11 evidence. I know that it's a lot longer that what I've played, so what I
12 would propose, at least in the interim, is to mark it for identification
13 at this time.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And to see what total compilation finally we'll have
15 in evidence, that's -- Madam Registrar, the portion played would receive?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Number -- reserve number P1518, Your Honours.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Ms. Stewart informs me that we should have a
18 suffix A because it will be an extract of the 65 ter number.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Therefore, one uploaded as document 2287A
20 receives number P1518, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
23 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a little bit about the details we see
24 here. Here we can see identifications through OTP interviews and an
25 identification through Pasaga Mesic Rule 61 hearing, 9 July, with respect
1 to Ahmo Mehmedovic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am not sure if we have the right page in the
3 B/C/S on the screen because the names are different from those of the
4 English page.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, the B/C/S page should be
6 page 2. Thank you, Your Honours. Okay. I think we've got it straight
8 Q. With respect to multiple identifications in this case, as you can
9 see are indicated here, was there any differentiation that you made with
10 respect to: One, the identity of the person as distinguished from what
11 you later learned or what you later found out happened to the person,
12 what their status was? Are these only relating to the identification of
13 the individual or are they relating to the status of the individual?
14 A. These that you see in the book are simply about the
15 identification of the person. In the book it does not indicate beyond
16 whether they are missing or they're alive.
17 Q. And in terms of your examination as to the identity of the
18 individuals that are named in the book, did you find any discrepancies in
19 terms of the information you found in the evidence of Pasaga Mesic versus
20 the information you found in the statements of various individuals that
21 also identified the same person?
22 A. For -- for the most part, no. His testimony correlates with the
23 statements that are listed in the indexes. There were a couple of minor
24 mistakes that were made, such as a -- in his testimony, perhaps a wrong
25 age, or in one occasion there is one woman who is identified in the book
1 and he had testified it was a male -- with a male's name instead. But
2 otherwise, the information that he gave in his testimony is the same as
3 the information that's in the statements.
4 Q. In this --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I'm looking at the clock. It's
6 quarter past 2.00.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Mr. President [overlapping
8 speakers] --
9 JUDGE ORIE: We have to conclude for the day.
10 But before we do that, Mr. Ivetic, if you are the one who will
11 deal with this witness, to what extent is the dispute about the
12 identifications of persons? Not to say that -- but just whether this
13 person shown on the video is the person as the Prosecution claims it is.
14 Is there a dispute about those?
15 MR. IVETIC: I don't think there is even a way that we could
16 dispute a lot of the identifications, only as to where there is
17 documentation otherwise. But it will not be -- there will not be a cross
18 focusing on the actual -- focusing too much on the identifications of the
19 persons as pictured, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No.
21 Then perhaps, Mr. Vanderpuye, and Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you could
22 sit together, have a cup of tea or coffee, and try to find out to what
23 extent we should use time in court on matters which are included in this
25 Ms. Gallagher, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
1 quarter past 9.00 in this same courtroom I -- ah, yes, half past 9.00,
2 otherwise you would have to wait for another 15 minutes in addition to
3 what you expected.
4 You may follow the usher. Yes, and I should -- I'm sorry, I have
5 forgotten to instruct you, and especially since you're -- since of your
6 job, not to speak with anyone about your testimony under the conditions
7 as we have spelled out earlier, whether testimony already given or still
8 to be given.
9 You may now follow the usher.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
12 Thursday, the 6th of June, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same
13 courtroom I.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of
16 June, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.