1 Thursday, 6 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was informed that both parties had
10 preliminary matters to raise.
11 Mr. Groome.
12 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. The next witness,
13 RM313, was a young boy when he survived the massacre at Orahovac, a
14 massacre of approximately a thousand people. Recounting those events is
15 obviously itself a difficult and traumatic thing. Yesterday we gave the
16 Chamber and the defence notice that I would be asking for us to change
17 the ordinary procedural practice regarding the taking of a witness's
18 evidence by 92 ter. We are asking that prior to the witness entering the
19 court, we be permitted to read a summary of his evidence. Further, that
20 the summary contain some facts related to the evidence of RM247, a person
21 who a 92 bis application is pending. A basic understanding of RM247's
22 evidence is essential to understanding RM313's evidence. Second that we
23 be allowed to ask RM313 to tell the Court what he remembers of that day.
24 If he is emotionally able to do that, we may not ultimately tender his
25 92 ter evidence. If he is unable, we will then proceed to lay a
1 foundation for 92 ter.
2 We expect that today's schedule may move a bit quicker than
3 originally anticipated, so I raise it now so that the Chamber can
4 deliberate upon this request. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, any response to the request.
6 MR. LUKIC: My colleague Stojanovic will cross-examine that
7 witness and I think that he already spoke with Mr. Groome and he agreed
8 that he has no objections to this proceeding.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we are informed through an informal
11 Mr. Groome you may proceed as you had suggested.
12 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
14 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
15 I have to address the issue that arose yesterday during the
16 cross-examination of Witness Momir Nikolic. The witness I want to
17 address is the confusion whether my colleague Petrusic knew about the
18 statement of Momir Nikolic about General Mladic's gesture which he
19 understood that meant to kill everybody.
20 My colleague Petrusic invoked four statements of Momir Nikolic,
21 one from 28th, 29th, and the 30th of May, and the fourth one of 12th of
22 June. To try to understand these statements, Your Honours would first
23 have to have the translation. There is no translation of these
24 transcripts since it was audio recorded and then transcribed. There is
25 no translation in the e-court. And at this moment, first of all, we
1 request for the translation, full translation of these transcripts to be
2 entered into the e-court.
3 Based on these statements, actually transcripts, the investigator
4 Bursik compiled a report on 23rd of June, 2003. In this report, he
5 stated on page 7 -- and that report is in our system as 1D1005. He
6 stated that based on these transcripts, from 28th, 29th and the 30th of
7 May, 2003, he concluded and he was told allegedly by Mr. Nikolic that
8 Nikolic already told him about this gesture.
9 Our investigation that we conducted yesterday and we will
10 continue to do so showed there is no mention of that gesture in any of
11 these statements -- transcripts. My colleague Ivetic is always
12 correcting me that it's transcript since it's audio recorded. Not a
13 single mention.
14 So we claim now that the first time this gesture is mentioned is
15 in this Bursik's report, never ever before that. Only after this report,
16 Momir Nikolic testified in Blagojevic case and mentioned this gesture.
17 So that's why we ask for full translation of all transcripts from
18 all four days of the testimony -- interview of Milomir Nikolic, and we
19 ask you to carefully examine and evaluate both interviews and Bursik's
20 report and we will continue our investigation. We will address this
21 Court again on this issue, and at this moment we claim there is nothing
22 in these interviews regarding this gesture.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you talking about four interviews or three
25 MR. LUKIC: Four, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Four interviews.
2 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, the interesting part is that those
3 interviews in B/C/S have 142 pages. And there is six pages in English
4 only. And those six pages in English you cannot find in B/C/S in
5 e-court. And including those extra six English pages, there is no
6 mentioning of this gesture. So there is 142 pages in B/C/S, none
7 translated in English, and there is six pages in English not translated
8 into B/C/S.
9 We want full translation in both languages and we claim there is
10 no such a claim by Momir Nikolic made before this report.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider your request.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider your claim as well.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, sir.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I make one observation at this point in time. If
16 all this has not been verified before the testimony of this witness,
17 Mr. Petrusic had only one source, a source which said that Mr. Nikolic
18 had told them something about a gesture. He, referring to the four
19 interviews, said why did you never say it during those four interviews.
20 Now, it may well be that mistakes are made but as matters stood
21 yesterday, Mr. Petrusic could only have assumed that it was mentioned and
22 that is what Mr. Petrusic yesterday confirmed. And we leave it to that.
23 We'll consider -- leave it to that at this very moment. We'll consider
24 your request that everything be translated and transcribed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Petrusic, if I may, told me yesterday when we met
1 that he was confused with this report and that's why he said yes, I know
2 that he told -- said that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday he told us something totally different.
4 He said I made a mistake. It's wrong what I did. I did it not
5 intentionally but I made that mistake. That's what we have in the
6 transcript. We'll further consider the matter as we said yesterday, and
7 we now include your request for having a full translation of the
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, relevant to this, Ms. Stewart informs
11 me that the entire transcript both English and original B/C/S was
12 disclosed to the Defence. All of the transcripts are not in e-court but
13 they have all been disclosed. And if there's any trouble that the Mladic
14 Defence has experienced finding those, we're available to assist them,
15 but based on Ms. Stewart's checking the records, there have been full
16 transcripts and they have been disclosed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you to my learned friend. Then it will be make
18 this process easier. We'll have translations very soon. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that request, if it is found in disclosed
20 material is therefore moot and --
21 MR. LUKIC: Only -- sorry, it's the Prosecutor's 65 ter exhibit,
22 so they should upload the translation. So it's not moot, I think. It's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether we need it in e-court is a different
25 matter. The first thing you need is to verify on the basis of that
1 material and that material is therefore apparently available. If it is
2 not uploaded, I take it that Mr. Groome will assist you.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Judge Fluegge would have --
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course the Chamber under the present
7 circumstances having to some extent initiated the matter, of course we'd
8 like to have this material available as well. Not as evidence at this
9 moment but -- while evidence on the incident rather than evidence in the
11 MR. GROOME: Just so I'm clear, is the Chamber requesting that
12 the Prosecution send it the transcripts of the material?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'd like to have that. We would like to be
14 able to verify the claim made by Mr. Lukic and therefore we need to have
15 a look at that material.
16 MR. GROOME: Okay.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just want to make a comment on Mr. Groome's
19 earlier comment. You said that the transcripts have been disclosed to
20 the Defence. I didn't think the Defence is complaining that it was not
21 disclosed. They're asking for translations. Do you have them
23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, sorry if I wasn't clear. So the
24 original transcript of the conversation or the interview in both
25 languages has been disclosed to the Defence.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
2 MR. GROOME: We did not -- they are not on the 65 ter list. It
3 was the Defence that put -- loaded up in e-court the summary of those
4 that was used with the witness yesterday, but the others -- we're happy
5 to undertake that if it's more convenient for everyone, but certainly
6 they are available to the Defence equally to upload into e-court to use
7 with the witness.
8 MR. LUKIC: Again, I'm not clear when my colleague said that it's
9 not on 65 ter list. Those interviews are all under 65 ter number 25717.
10 MR. GROOME: Perhaps I have some misinformation, so I will check
11 that and speak to Mr. Lukic at the break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, one thing is now certain and that's how
13 it should be is that all relevant material is available to whomever is
14 involved in this incident.
15 If there's no further matter, we could ask the witness to be
16 escorted into the courtroom. And that's what I do.
17 Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. President, Your
19 Honours. Good morning everyone. I just wanted, while the witness was
20 coming in, to put on the record that 65 ter 22287A, that was excerpt of
21 the video that I played yesterday, is now in e-court and it was assigned
22 P151A, I believe.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it was -- well, it was MFI'd because
24 other portions might be added to it later and in order to avoid that it's
25 split up in all smaller parts that we keep it like that for the time
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: And the 65 ter was 65 ter 22287A, for the record.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 22287A.
6 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry for interrupting, but P number looks also
7 too small. If it's introduced yesterday.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, 1518.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have now everything in the proper order
10 on the transcript. Yes, P1518 is MFI'd as I said before and keep that
11 status for the time being.
12 Good morning, Ms. Gallagher. I'd like to remind you again that
13 you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
14 beginning of your testimony.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye will now continue his examination.
16 Please proceed.
17 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much Mr. President.
19 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning to you, Ms. Gallagher.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Yesterday when we broke I was just about to ask you this
23 question. In the course of carrying out the assignment to update the
24 information contained in the book, the Muslim identification book, any
25 instance -- did you, rather, encounter any instance when you were
1 reviewing conflicting information as to the identity or the status of any
2 given individual?
3 A. There were certainly two occasions where there was a missing
4 person that had been identified as missing and in reviewing all that I
5 could, I wasn't able to confidently establish their status, so those
6 remained as missing -- as a missing status.
7 Other times, I mean as you will note, sometimes there's some
8 slight discrepancies in the age of the person. So I've had to
9 double-check and look at once again the totality of the information in
10 order to confidently conclude that they were either missing or found in a
11 mass grave.
12 Q. And were you able to determine if there were statements regarding
13 the identity or the status of each individual that's indicated in the
15 A. There are statements in different forms for every person in the
16 book. There are several of the men that were identified as having
17 survived where there is not a statement from a -- from a witness or that
18 person themselves. It is explained in the letter, in the annexes, annex
19 7 I believe it is. So it's a very brief statement that explains that
20 they have survived but not a statement from that person themselves, aside
21 from I believe two people. Everyone else there is a statement that --
22 some sort of statement that accompanies the identification.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could just go very briefly back to 65 ter
25 28795. This is the book itself. And we'll need to go to page 7 which we
1 saw yesterday very briefly.
2 I think I must have misspoke. Ah, okay. 28975. I'm sorry. I
3 inverted the numbers. 28975, that's the book. Thank you. It's page 3,
4 I believe, in the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, page 2. Okay.
5 Q. This particular page we saw yesterday very briefly, and here we
6 have the indication of Sefko Mujic number 3 and Ahmo Mehmedovic as having
7 been identified by Pasaga Mesic, the police officer that you mentioned
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just for the Chamber's reference, you will find
10 a reference to these two individuals having been identified in an annex 3
11 and that's at page 40 -- e-court pages, I'm sorry, 40 to 41 in the
12 English and 48 to 49 in the B/C/S.
13 For the Chamber's reference, you'll find these at transcript
14 references in Mr. Mesic's Rule 61 testimony, transcript pages 56 and 57.
15 That may make it easier for you to see.
16 Perhaps it might be easier if just we go there in e-court. So it
17 would be e-court pages 40 to 41, so let's start at 40, in the B/C/S it's
18 48. At the bottom of the page, line 28, you'll see an individual.
19 You'll see the reference to Sefko Mujic.
20 Q. Do you see that, Ms. Gallagher?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And if you go to the next page we will see -- I'm sorry, go to
23 the next page, which is page 57 in the English -- not 57, rather it is
24 e-court page 41, there we have it now. You'll see Ahmo Mehmedovic at
25 line 3 and you'll see Meho Mehmedovic at line 8. Do you see that,
1 Ms. Gallagher?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. And we have an indication with respect to all three as having
4 been identified on photographic exhibits to this statement. Did you
5 review the photographic exhibits, first of all, referenced in this
7 A. I did.
8 Q. And do they correspond to the identifications indicated at page 7
9 of the book as we've just seen it?
10 A. Yes, they do.
11 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is to go to annex 1 of the book and
12 that's at page 31 in e-court. I don't think we have a translation for
13 the title page.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: So for the benefit of counsel and
15 General Mladic, I'll read it. It says:
16 "Annex 1: Identification Table of Missing Bosnian Muslims."
17 Q. And what I'd like to do then is to go to the next page of it so
18 you can tell us what this is about.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: So if we can go, please, to page 32, the next
20 page in e-court, and rotate it.
21 Q. Perhaps you can walk us through this.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there any problem with broadcasting this
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: There isn't.
2 THE WITNESS: As you see it's a table of the men and actually one
3 woman that are identified as missing in the book. You'll see that it's
4 organised alphabetically by the identified person, and with that there is
5 the original ERN number which is of the photograph which is what you see
6 in the book, and then the ERN of the statement of the person who
7 identified them.
8 So in the first -- the first row, you see Bajazad Delic
9 identified by Sevda Habibovic. The statement that Sevda Habibovic gave
10 is that ERN that's listed there with the identification date, the
11 relation to the identified person, Mr. Delic, and any other further
12 details and every identification is made like this.
13 It's colour co-ordinated as you see between those identifications
14 that were made by the Tuzla AID, which is the agency for investigation
15 and documentation, versus those in red that were made by the OTP
16 investigators at the time in the year 2000.
17 And then there are several letter in blue that you'll see at the
18 bottom of the legend where there are statements concerning an individual
19 which Mesic did not testify about. So all the underlying statements of
20 the identifications are of the missing of in this table. They're also
21 the ones that Pasaga Mesic had testified to as well.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review all of these statements
24 that are indicated here?
25 A. I've read all these statements.
1 Q. All right. I have a number of them on my exhibit list. I won't
2 go through all of them. But if we could take a look, for example, at
3 65 ter 25741 and that relates to the identification of Kasim Hafizovic.
4 I think we should not broadcast this one, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I take it that you have considered
6 whether we have to move in private session if this cannot be broadcast.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I was just going to ask to move into private
8 session, Mr. President. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Ms. Gallagher, is this one of the statements that you reviewed in
12 relation to --
13 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. What I'd like to do now briefly --
24 Mr. President, first I have a number of these types of statements,
25 clearly not all of them, but I'd like to tender them - if the Defence
1 doesn't object - without having to lead Ms. Gallagher through all of them
2 in relation to the identification of the individuals that are listed in
3 annex 1. They are on my exhibit list and you'll see that really there
4 are about a handful of them, maybe about 8 or so, or if you think there's
5 further foundation that I need to make, I'm fine to do that as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first hear what the Defence's position is.
7 MR. IVETIC: I have no objection to proceeding as counsel has
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it's a selection, I do understand. It's a
10 selection of those.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Madam Registrar -- how many are there exactly, Mr. Vanderpuye?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, just bear with me one moment. I'm
15 sorry, Mr. President. I believe 10.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there --
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: There are actually 11.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] is that --
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: There's one on -- well, I'm sorry, that's right.
20 It's 10. P1024 is already admitted. So yes, ten, thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could go through them very quickly. I
22 think the first one is 25739.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You find it on your list.
25 Receives, Madam Registrar, number?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1519.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
3 Does it need to be able to seal, Mr. -- no need?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, it doesn't.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Next one 25740.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1520, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
9 The next one. I'm following your list, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. The next one is 741.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 25741.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1521, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1522, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1523, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1524, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1525, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1526, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1527, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P1528, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Those are ten you had in mind, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
13 What I'd like to do if we could is go back very quickly to the
14 book 28795, 65 ter number. We'll go to page 9 in the English and page 4
15 in the B/C/S.
16 Did I get the number wrong again? It's 28975. Thank you very
18 Q. Here we have an individual who is identified as Mesa Efendic.
19 Did you review any other information in order to one confirm his
20 identity; and two, to confirm his status?
21 A. Yes, I read the underlying statements that were made in 1996 and
22 then also ones in the year 2000. I also reviewed the ICRC missing list
23 and the ICMP database as well as exhumation reports and autopsy reports
24 and photographs.
25 Q. What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 25736. First, do you
1 recognise what's on the screen now?
2 A. Yes, that's an autopsy report.
3 Q. Okay. And what I'd like to do is to show you two things at the
4 same time and that is the page we just saw in the book, which is -- I'll
5 try again, 65 ter 28975, page 9, together with the autopsy report. And I
6 won't be able to do the autopsy report or show it in two languages, but
7 I'd like to divide the screen so we can look at both at the same time.
8 In this particular autopsy report we can see that it refers to
9 the Kozluk grave site and identifies a case number KK3 543B. And it says
10 the cause the death near the bottom where the signature is just above it
11 in the box. It says:
12 "Cause of death was gunshot wounds in the head and pelvic region
14 If we can go to the next page in the autopsy report, we see a
15 description of the clothing of this individual identified as KK3 543B.
16 Included there -- I just want to draw your attention to that. Have you
17 seen this page before?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. And were you aware of any other information -- well, were you
20 aware of any information linking this autopsy report to the individual
21 that's depicted on the left of the screen?
22 A. Yes, from the ICMP data base he is listed in the data base with
23 that case ID number.
24 Q. And here we can see the description of an individual wearing a
25 red cardigan and wearing a striped light colour pajamas bottoms and so on
1 and so forth. Did you review that? In particular, it says dark striped
2 pants, red cardigan - that's short sleeves. Did you review that
3 particular information in relation to the photograph depicted on the left
4 at page 9 in the identification book?
5 A. Yes, I had read that as well.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I'd like to show you now -- well, first I'd
7 like to admit this autopsy report if I could, Mr. President.
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25736 receives number P1529,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P1529 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I'd like to do while we still have the
14 picture on the book -- of the book rather on the left is to upload next
15 to that photograph the following photograph from the exhumation which is
16 65 ter 6362.
17 It's a little bit difficult to see. Perhaps this way if we could
18 flip it around to the left 90 degrees in might be bigger. The other way
19 around. There we go. If we could stand it up. Turn it one more to the
20 right 90 degrees. Okay. Maybe we can blow it up. Okay.
21 Q. Did you review -- first of all, do you recognise this photograph,
22 Ms. Gallagher?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review that in relation to the
25 information in the autopsy report?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And does it bear the same identification number as the autopsy
4 A. It does.
5 Q. And does the autopsy report bear the same identification number
6 as the information you reviewed in the DNA data base?
7 A. It does.
8 Q. And to your knowledge, has the individual 543 KK3 been identified
9 as Mesa Efendic in the ICMP data base?
10 A. Yes, he has been.
11 Q. And being an experienced investigator, are you satisfied that the
12 information on which you updated the status of Mesa Efendic in the book
13 was accurate and reliable?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I move to admit this photograph
17 as well.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06362 receives number P1530,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to continue
24 with, very briefly, with the following document. We'd have to do this I
25 think in -- I'd like to upload 65 ter 28976. This shouldn't be
1 broadcast. And I think we should do it in private session as well.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
3 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are now open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
3 Therefore the Prosecution -- the photo book, Muslim photo book,
4 is tendered.
5 Madam Registrar, is number?
6 THE REGISTRAR: It was 65 ter number 28975.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: And it receives number P1532, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P1532 is admitted into evidence. No need to have it
10 under seal, Mr. Vanderpuye?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, there isn't.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I put on the record that in private
13 session, the Defence already expressed that they had no objection to the
14 admission of P1532.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
16 direct examination. Thank you very much, Ms. Gallagher.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 Mr. Ivetic, we have 10 minutes left until the break. I leave it
19 up to you, whether you consider it useful to already have those first 10
20 minutes or otherwise take an early break.
21 MR. IVETIC: Let with check with my client and see what he would
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. IVETIC: I think we should take the break early and then I
25 will I believe conclude my cross within the next session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break.
2 Ms. Gallagher, you can follow the usher. We would like to see
3 you back in 20 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could Ms. Gallagher be escorted into the courtroom.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, you will now be cross-examined by
11 Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic is member of the defence team of Mr. Mladic.
12 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
15 Q. Good day, Ms. Gallagher.
16 A. Good day.
17 Q. As was the case last time that we had occasion to hear your
18 testimony in this courtroom, I would like to remind you that since we
19 both speak English we should be mindful to maintain a pause between
20 answer and question to permit the court reporters and translators to do
21 their job. Is that fair, ma'am?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. I'd like to first talk about some of these AID statements that
24 you have talked about during your direct examination and on the exhibit
25 list now we have a number of them, I believe ten.
1 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up, and perhaps not broadcast it just
2 to be on the safe side, Exhibit P1523 as an example of one of these.
3 Q. And while we wait for that to come up in e-court, madam, can I
4 ask you that as a result of your investigative work, can you confirm that
5 the AID agency for investigation and documentation was in fact staffed by
6 the former secret police of the army of BiH side?
7 A. I want to be cautious in saying I don't know who the individuals
8 are that were a part of the AID, if they were all secret, if there's a
9 combination of civilian police. I would defer probably to Pasaga Mesic's
10 testimony regarding the -- those that took the statements but -- so I
11 just want to be a little cautious with my response on that because I am
12 not sure.
13 Q. That's fair enough. Now, if we look at these statements and we
14 now have an example on the screen although it is not being broadcast, I'd
15 like to see what you do know about how they were taken.
16 First of all, did you or anyone else in the Office of the
17 Prosecutor of this Tribunal perform any research or investigation to
18 ascertain the precise procedure employed by those taking these statements
19 given to the agency for investigation and documentation, the AID?
20 A. No. My knowledge of the process is what was stated in the
21 testimony of Pasaga Mesic and several of the other investigators such as
22 Dean Manning who took statements in the year 2000 as to the process. It
23 is basically explained in his testimony and you'll see in some of these
24 statements of what the process was, but beyond that, I don't know.
25 Q. Fair enough, madam.
1 Now, if we look at this document that we have on the screen, it's
2 dated the 25th of January, 1996, and it records that this particular
3 witness was shown a collection of -- or an album, I should say, of 29
4 photographs that were part of the identification process. Now, you've
5 mentioned the testimony of Mr. Pasaga Mesic. He mentions 30 photographs.
6 I haven't done the statistics but if you go through all of these AID
7 statements I think you will find that whereas a large number of them
8 refer to 29 photographs being shown, others refer to a collection of 30
9 photographs being shown. Do you know what is the reason for this
10 apparent discrepancy in the number of photographs which comprise the
11 album which was shown to these people by the AID officials in Tuzla for
12 purposes of identification?
13 A. No, I don't know -- I don't know the reason for the difference of
14 one photograph. I might want to take a look at the exact dates of the
15 interviews to see if 29 corresponds with one date versus 30 with another
16 date, if perhaps there was an additional identification made or -- excuse
17 me, an additional photograph that was contributed to the album. I don't
19 Q. If we can assist you, and this also should not be broadcast, but
20 exhibit P1520 is -- when it comes up, I think we'll see it as dated in
21 June of 1996 and references -- once the English comes up, I think you'll
22 see it references a 30-photograph album being used. Does that allow you
23 to refresh your recollection or do you stand by the previous answer as
24 being complete?
25 A. No, I think it corroborates what I just said, that you have a
1 later date of June 20th, 1996, where there's now 30 photographs, whereas
2 in January 1996, there was only 29. So it is only an assumption on my
3 part. I don't know that there was an additional photograph that was
4 contributed -- added to the album and therefore for these later
6 Q. Now, you say it's an assumption on your part. Do you have
7 knowledge of any investigation or confirmation efforts undertaken by the
8 Office of the Prosecutor to ensure that the set of photographs that was
9 shown to the individuals giving the AID statements is the same one that
10 is referred to in the Pasaga Mesic testimony?
11 A. I myself have looked at the -- at photographs and they're in this
12 book as the photographs that he used when he was interviewing people for
13 the identifications so those photographs are in here. What I don't --
14 what I once again don't know is off the top of my head without perhaps a
15 little more investigation or looking more closely at the photographs what
16 is the one that was added later for the June 20th, 1996 interview.
17 Q. Fair enough. And just to be clear, I understood your testimony
18 to be that Mr. Pasaga Mesic was relying upon these AID statements in
19 terms of giving his Rule 61 testimony in 1996. Am I correct in that or
20 was he relying upon other things as well according to your information
21 and investigation?
22 A. I can certainly tell from his testimony that he's relying upon
23 these statements because they corroborate what is said in the statements.
24 Beyond that, I don't know what else he relied upon. I'm assuming that he
25 had other information than just these statements but I don't -- that
1 wouldn't be fair for me to speculate about really.
2 Q. Okay. So you do not know whether in fact he individually
3 interviewed people apart from these statements which were taken by other
5 A. Yeah, I don't know how it was -- I don't know which ones he would
6 have done, others would have done. I don't know.
7 Q. Fair enough. Now, if we looked at the identification book, which
8 has now received the exhibit number P1532, I believe, and that we can
9 have up on the screen. I think the -- we have two requests for
10 assistance, one dated 9 March, 2002, and the other 19 September 2002, and
11 they're at pages 74 and 80 respectively of the photo -- of the Bosnian
12 Muslim photo identification book. Now these are the responses from the
13 BiH authorities to the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal as to
14 requests for assistance; however, we do not have the actual text of the
15 OTP requests themselves so as to know what the documents are in answer
16 to. Do you know if the requests were in writing or orally submitted?
17 A. The protocol is that it's in writing.
18 Q. Thank you for that information. I was aware of that. That's why
19 I'm asking was it sent in writing or was it transmitted orally?
20 A. My recollection -- well, let's put it this way: I don't recall
21 seeing the written request, the original request. The fact that they
22 refer to numbers and it's the practice of the office to put things in
23 writing and the fact that it came back in writing, my assumption is that
24 it was done in writing, but I have not seen the original request.
25 Q. Do you at least have information as to when these original
1 requests would have been made, perhaps the year that the requests would
2 have been sent to the BiH authorities?
3 A. Well, in the first one, you'll see -- and this is the one that's
4 for the year 2000, and it has a date to The Hague of March 9th, 2000 with
5 a request number, which would be the RFA number dated 10 February 2000.
6 So that suggests that there was a request made February 10th, 2000.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, I see that later in that same letter,
8 we see apparently another request dated the 15th of February, 2000.
9 THE WITNESS: Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be your assumption that there have been two
11 requests there dated on the 10th and the 15th of February?
12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Now, the reason I ask is that the rule 61 of Pasaga Mesic that
16 we've referred to and that's included as part of this identification book
17 at annex 3, I believe, starting in e-court at page 37 of the same, and
18 dated in 1996, in that transcript - and I believe at pages 39 and 40 in
19 e-court of this book, at lines 30 and onwards on page 39 - the testimony
20 requests that the deponent, Mr. Pasaga Mesic, does not know where the
21 photographs came from but does testify that the investigative team of the
22 Tribunal asked for efforts to identify the persons in the photographs.
23 So the question that I have for you is if the photographs used in the AID
24 statements were part of the same or prior request for assistance issued
25 by the Office of the Prosecutor, if you know?
1 A. Well, I believe that the photographs, these 29, 30 photographs
2 have been the same throughout and the fact that the -- many of these
3 names mentioned certainly correspond with the photographs in those that
4 were identified. But otherwise -- so I'm assuming that yes, it's the
5 same group.
6 Q. But do you know where they came from? Did they come from the
7 Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?
8 A. Ah, okay, I understand your question now. Yes, I believe they
9 were photographs that were taken from that Jean-Rene Ruez had captured
10 from the Petrovic video and the other footage that's from July 12th in
11 Potocari. Those photographs were then given to Pasaga Mesic and his team
12 in Tuzla, and those were the photographs that were shown to the
13 interviewees which then are encapsulated in this book.
14 Q. I'm sorry, is it your testimony that Mr. Ruez captured the
15 Petrovic video in 1996?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Would there be any written documentation required under the
18 protocols of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal providing the photographs to
19 the BiH authorities such that we can confirm what photographs and other
20 information were provided to the BiH authorities that resulted in the AID
21 statements being taken?
22 A. It's -- generally, yes, we would know which photographs had been
23 handed over. Sometimes it does -- sometimes it might be too many
24 photographs that might not be documented in a request. It might happen
25 more as it's written into the request and then the photographs are handed
1 over personally on a separate occasion. I actually did try to find what
2 the original photographs, if there was some sort of album that had been
3 copied, anything here. As to what exactly what had been turned over, I
4 wasn't able to find documentation of it.
5 Q. Would it have been standard operating procedure under the
6 protocols in existence as you know them for such documentation to exist?
7 A. I would say usually but not always in that sometimes there may
8 be -- there may be -- it may be too large, too many photographs that can
9 be part of a -- or an official request that goes to other authorities,
10 and it may be documented as to what is being turned over or requested of.
11 So I don't want to say that that would be always the case, and perhaps
12 also in 1996 when procedures were being developed, they were not set in
13 place as such.
14 Q. Thank you. Now I want to move to a different topic and it starts
15 with something you said yesterday.
16 You testified about the accuracy of Pasaga Mesic's Rule 61
17 testimony and to be specific and fair, at transcript page 12.191, line 17
18 and onward, you testified as follows. And I'll try to read slow enough
19 so as not to cause grief for the translators and the court reporter:
20 "Q. And in terms of your examination as to the identity of the
21 individuals that are named in the book, did you find any discrepancies in
22 terms of the information you found in the evidence of Pasaga Mesic versus
23 the information you found in the statements of various individuals that
24 also identified the same person?
25 "A. For -- for the most part, no. His testimony correlates with
1 the statements that are listed in the indexes. There were a couple of
2 minor mistakes that were made, such as a -- in his testimony, perhaps a
3 wrong age. Or on one occasion there is one woman who is identified in
4 the book and he had testified it was a male -- with male's name instead.
5 But otherwise the information that he gave in his testimony is the same
6 as the information that's in the statements."
7 Now, the reason I have highlighted that is I'd like to turn to
8 the book and -- so again, it's page 74 in e-court of the book, and it is
9 the first response of the BiH authorities to the request for information
10 to the ICTY. And if we wait for that --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is the page in hard copy?
12 MR. IVETIC: 74 in e-court. It has the ERN number ending in 076.
13 Q. At the bottom of the page, madam, there is a note that says:
14 "This communication corrected the testimony of Pasaga Mesic
15 regarding the missing status of Huseinovic, Ibro, and Mujcinovic Mustafa.
16 Their status was corrected from missing to living."
17 Does -- did this note come -- arise as a result of your
18 investigative updating of the book or is this something that predated
20 A. No, this is something from the year 2000.
21 Q. And would you agree with me that these mistakes in the Mesic --
22 Pasaga Mesic Rule 61 testimony as to these two individuals is rather
24 A. They -- they're significant in that they -- when I was referring
25 to his testimony, it was testimony that he knew of. So I think at that
1 time he believed Ibro Huseinovic and Mustafa Mujcinovic to have been the
2 status that he gave them in the testimony. So yes, it later it -- in the
3 year 2000, it was determined that those were -- one of them was an
4 incorrect identification and the other one the person is alive and not
5 missing. So those were -- that was incorrect information at the time
6 that Pasaga Mesic reflected in his testimony.
7 Q. [Overlapping speakers].
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one thing. The fact that one of
9 these persons was living, was that known at the time he gave his
11 THE WITNESS: No, it's in the year 2000 that --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That he was found.
13 THE WITNESS: That he was found alive.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, is a qualification that that person
15 was missing, is that wrong or is that right? Because the person was
16 missing and later found to be alive which doesn't make him any less
17 missing at the time when it was not yet known that he was alive.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. That's my recollection and that's what I
19 was just trying to explain, that I don't think that he was
20 misrepresenting the information that he knew at that time.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. I'd love to go through that with you step by step because I think
23 you're wrong. But let's go through it to be fair.
24 If we turn to the next page in e-court of this document, and if
25 we look at the entry for Mr. Huseinovic, Ibro, and it says that he was in
1 Potocari but he arrived on the first trucks to the free territory and he
2 lives in a particular settlement, et cetera.
3 Now, if we look at Exhibit P1528, an AID statement of Ibro
4 Huseinovic, I think we'll see that in 1996, Mr. Huseinovic gave a
5 statement to the AID which would have been available to Mr. Pasaga Mesic
6 which indicated that he was alive. Would you agree with me?
7 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up P1528.
8 Q. And I think you'll see if you look at the statement that the
9 description of him being in Potocari and leaving on a truck and arriving
10 in Kladanj correlates to the 2000 information that in fact he was alive,
11 so would you agree with me that with respect to this individual,
12 Pasaga Mesic ought to have had this information at the time that he gave
13 his Rule 61 testimony?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. If we're referring to
16 the individual that was mentioned at annex 6 in the book, number 6,
17 Ibro Huseinovic, this is an individual with a different father's name
18 that's on the screen now. So unless we've changed topics, we're talking
19 about different people.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: I do note that the father's name is different but
22 the description is exactly the same of how he got out of the -- out of
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness, then. Is that a typical
25 description for one of these persons or was that something that has
1 happened to more persons; that is, arriving on a truck to the free
3 And in the statement, Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you could help me
4 because you pointed at --
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes, it's the part that's underlined, the fourth
6 line from the bottom:
7 "I threw myself onto some things inside the truck while the other
8 woman in the truck hid me and protected me with their bodies," et cetera.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now that is him being on a truck. Do we find
10 the same details elsewhere? Because you said it is a similar
11 description. Is it the similarity exclusively found in being in a truck
12 travelling to Bosnian-held territory or is there more similarity.
13 MR. IVETIC: Being in Potocari having that name?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Potocari, truck, and having this name. That's
15 where we find the similarity, you say.
16 MR. IVETIC: Correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So then we'll have to consider whether perhaps it's
18 a mistake and it's the same person but that the name of the father is not
19 recorded accurately or whether it is a different person who may have
20 found himself in a similar situation being Potocari, on a truck, being
21 transported to Bosnian-held territory. Is that the issue? Have I
22 described the issue?
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. And I was wondering whether the
24 witness knew anything about that. If she does, enlighten us; if not,
25 then I can move on.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But we have now, I think, clearly identified
2 what the issue is. Can you shed any light on it?
3 THE WITNESS: Sure. There are two Ibro Huseinovics that have
4 different fathers, different dates of birth, and even spelling, and in
5 fact they're both survivors. And one is a very statement of having
6 left -- been one of the early ones to have left Potocari on one of the
7 first trucks on the 12th. And therefore in the context of what had
8 happened, some of the men were able to leave early and were able to get
9 to the free territory. The other person describes sneaking onto a truck
10 and being able to get out that way.
11 But there are two separate Ibro Huseinovics, son of Aljo and son
12 of Ahmo with a -- different dates of birth, one of about 51 years old and
13 the other one would have been about 62 years old.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And the fact that they survived, was that for both
15 known at the time when the testimony was given.
16 THE WITNESS: One of them, the Ibro Huseinovic, son of Aljo, the
17 one that you see here obviously was a statement that came in by the Tuzla
18 AID in 1996. And the other one, the son of Ahmo, that was taken in the
19 year 2000.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Do you know with respect to which of these Ibro Huseinovics a
24 Mr. Hakija Huseinovic who gave a statement, which has an ERN number of
25 0085-8739, would have been related to?
1 A. Hmm.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it? Because the number
3 is --
4 MR. IVETIC: It's not in e-court, Your Honours. I wasn't going
5 to present it for the truth of matter asserted. It's something I found
6 this morning when I was double-checking in EDS, and it is a statement
7 of -- also given to AID in 1996 of a similar format, it's not one of the
8 ones that was on the list for the Prosecution, and also identifies that
9 Ibro Huseinovic was alive in 1996.
10 Now, I don't know which one. That's why I'm asking the witness
11 if she knows and she says she reviewed all these statements.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't know whether she knows them by number
13 by heart. That's -- is there any way that you could if you found them
14 this morning that you either make a copy or something like that because
15 the Chamber, of course, must have an opportunity to verify --
16 MR. IVETIC: I can at the break have a copy printed and we can
17 find out because I honestly don't know --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
19 MR. IVETIC: -- looking at it --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- of course it's --
21 MR. IVETIC: -- then I know it's which -- which Ibro Huseinovic
22 it would have been. [Overlapping speakers] --
23 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness is able to answer the question
24 already, nevertheless I think the Chamber would like to have a look at
25 the document.
1 THE WITNESS: Let me just check the index in the back and that
2 might give us some more information.
3 It actually is -- it's not listed in the back, but I -- I would
4 want to confirm this, but I do have a recollection of Hakija Huseinovic
5 identifying Ibro Huseinovic and that would have been from 1996.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And which Ibro Huseinovic would that statement be
7 about? If you don't know, that's ...
8 THE WITNESS: I would want to confirm it but I think that you
9 might be correct, but before I go any further, if I can take a look at
10 the Hakija Huseinovic's statement just to make sure.
11 MR. IVETIC: I would be more than happy to find that and bring it
12 in after the break. If we can move on though.
13 Q. In terms of the selection of the term --
14 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I do actually have a hard copy.
17 We managed to print it out. So if Mr. Ivetic wants to put it to the
18 witness or if the Chamber wants to see it we can provide that immediately
19 rather than after the break --
20 MR. IVETIC: That'd be great.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- or --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the hard copy -- could the usher
23 assist in giving the hard copy to -- first of all to Mr. -- perhaps we
24 could use our --
25 MR. IVETIC: The ELMO.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The ELMO.
2 MR. IVETIC: The last time we tried it didn't go quite as
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, if you look at the document first, if
5 you -- then at the same time if the usher could try to get the ELMO.
6 MR. IVETIC: Going. But yeah, that's hard.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Surviving from his --
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if we could just go into private
9 session for one brief moment, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We go into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 12233-12234 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpretation, thank
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise to the interpreters and I will try my
22 best not to speak quickly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Now, if we look at again the identification book which is P1532,
1 and if we return to page 76 of the same, it should be the second page of
2 the 2000 response to request for assistance by the BiH authorities to the
3 OTP of this Tribunal. And here now we have the information under number
4 20 for the second individual that is a correction from the Pasaga Mesic
5 testimony, Mujcinovic, Mustafa, and we see that this person was not even
6 in Potocari but was the result of a falsely identified photograph. Now
7 -- now that is something that you did mention earlier.
8 I want to ask you since here it says that the authorities of BiH
9 will try to identify the person in the photograph by operative work, it
10 has been some time since this 2000 request for assistance. Do you know
11 whether they have accomplished any kind of identification so as to
12 supplement the information that we have in this book?
13 A. Not that I'm aware of. I haven't seen any information that
14 suggests they discovered or passed on to the OTP the identification of
15 that person.
16 Q. And would you agree with me that it seems or appears that it took
17 them four years to find out that the initial identification made of
18 Mr. Mujcinovic was in fact falsely made?
19 A. Certainly that's at the time that the OTP learns of the -- learns
20 of the misidentification.
21 Q. Now again as to the use of the term survivor for this individual.
22 Since he never was in Potocari, would you agree that it's not entirely an
23 accurate description of his status as being a survivor?
24 A. I don't recall that he was mentioned as a survivor.
25 Q. I apologise. I thought he was. Then we can move on.
1 If we look at -- if we talk about this book, P1752, can you
2 please tell us to what extent, if at all, the demographic unit of the
3 Office of the Prosecution was involved in its creation or updating?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you said P1752. We haven't reached
5 that number yet.
6 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, Your Honours, that would be P1532. I
7 can't read my own handwriting.
8 Q. In relation to this book that we have in front of us, the
9 photo -- the identification book that you worked on, can you tell us what
10 if any role the demographics unit of the Office of the Prosecutor had in
11 the creation of the same?
12 A. I'm not aware that they had any direct creation of this book, and
13 in an indirect way some of the work on the Srebrenica missing persons
14 list that they have helped create from information from ICRC and ICMP,
15 that that is one more list that I relied upon when I was checking on the
16 status of the missing men. But otherwise, I am not aware that they
17 participated in the creation of this.
18 Q. Fair enough. Now, I'd like to ask you if you have knowledge or
19 at least during the time period when you were involved in working on this
20 book, whether anyone else within the Office of the Prosecutor had a main
21 role in the production of this book or was it you?
22 A. No, the book has remained basically essentially as it was
23 originally created for the Blagojevic trial, so I think at that time it
24 was investigators and the entire members of the team that usually were a
25 part of creating these books. Since I assisted with updating it, it has
1 been primarily my work in at least updating the status of the people, and
2 I've relied upon other -- the work of others such as the work the
3 demographics unit did in terms of their missing persons list, ICMP and my
4 colleague, Dusan Janc as well with his report, but otherwise -- and the
5 only other person would have been our technician who helps create these
6 books and videos and other photo books here with the OTP, Zoran Lesic.
7 Q. Now I know that this was before your time, so if you can't answer
8 I'll understand, but you did mention that the -- it was your
9 understanding that the entire team worked on this back in the time that
10 it was first created by the Blagojevic trial. Would that have included,
11 do you know, trial counsel that would have been prosecuting that case?
12 A. I don't know for sure. My assumption is these books generally
13 are created there -- with investigators and with the prosecutors in
14 determining what will go in it, what will stay out, the look of it, how
15 it's presented in court. So this has been the practice of all the books
16 that I've worked on over the years is that there is a dialogue with the
17 prosecutors and they have input. I don't want to say -- I don't know
18 specifically about when this was created for Blagojevic, who might
19 have -- what that involvement would have been.
20 Q. That's fair enough. Now I'd like to move to a different topic
22 In this book, P1532, at page 13 of the same in e-court, we
23 have -- and in the hard copies it's the page that's marked M7 at the
24 bottom right to assist those of us with the hard copy. Now we do have it
25 on the screen.
1 Here, we have an individual identified Ramo Osmanovic and it
2 lists the information of how he was identified. I believe that we had
3 some testimony here a few weeks ago that this individual was a soldier,
4 specifically a member of Ibro's Brigade in the Srebrenica armed enclave.
5 Did your investigation discover or verify this same fact?
6 A. True, I have read Saliha Osmanovic's statement from 2000 and I
7 did see a portion of her testimony.
8 Q. Okay. And in relation to your investigative work, what can you
9 tell us about this Ibro's Brigade, what was the formal designation of
10 this structure, of this formation?
11 A. Of Ibro's Brigade?
12 Q. Yeah, if you know. If your investigation revealed anything.
13 A. No, I know -- I recall, I should say. I know virtually nothing
14 about it. I recall more of his, in particular, Ramo's work as doing
15 construction often times in Serbia and around the country and that was
16 primarily his employment before and even up until the time that they fled
17 the area. I don't recall actually anything about -- off the top of my
18 head about Ibro's Brigade.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, in this photograph, this individual does not
20 seem to be wearing anything that could be readily identifiable as a
21 military outfit. Did your investigation reveal if the armed forces of
22 the Bosnian Muslim side in Srebrenica from operating in uniform or any
23 other type of clothing during this time period?
24 A. I know the column that was moving through the woods that had fled
25 the Srebrenica area. There are members of the column that were a part of
1 the ABiH army that were wearing camouflage and had weapons and that more
2 than two-thirds of the column were civilians, civilian clothes without
3 any weapons. And yes, I've not had any indication that he was carrying a
4 weapon or any -- in any sort of military garb as many of the others were
5 not either.
6 Q. Now I picked him because we had this independent confirmation of
7 his status. As to the other 30, I guess, individuals that have been
8 identified for purposes of this book, in relation to those individuals
9 has your office undertaken any investigation to determine if these men
10 had been members of the BiH armed forces in Srebrenica at any time prior
11 or subsequent to the filming of these photographs?
12 A. Not that I'm aware of. Not for the purposes of this book.
13 Q. And for the vast, I believe, majority of the persons that are
14 identified for purposes of this book, we do not have an independent
15 statement or verification of how they met their fate and where they met
16 their fate; is that correct?
17 A. Well, no, most of them we know -- we do have verification as
18 to -- well, we have verification as to where their remains are found and
19 that gives an indication of where they may have met their fate. And we
20 do have exhumation reports, autopsy reports that -- on a number of them
21 that also verifies how they met their fate. We do have some statements
22 where in fact I -- there's one in particular I remember where there is
23 one man who is at an execution site, goes to the execution site with one
24 of the men here that originally was listed as missing, and he himself,
25 the one giving the statement survived the execution. And in his
1 statement, I recall that he says he assumes the other person was killed
2 in the execution.
3 Q. If I can perhaps assist you, I think it's P1519 that you're
4 referring to.
5 MR. IVETIC: If we cannot broadcast that but if we can bring it
6 up that might assist the witness.
7 Q. Does this appear to be the one that you were talking about,
9 A. Yes, this is the one that I was thinking of.
10 Q. And apart from this one that both you and I were able to locate,
11 do you have knowledge of any other statements as to any of the other
12 individuals that are identified as part of this book?
13 A. No. In terms of witnessing or being a part -- being there at the
14 execution, this is -- I think this is the only one that I recall.
15 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to one other topic.
16 First of all, as part of your -- and we can remove this from the
17 monitor, I guess, I don't need it anymore.
18 From your investigative work, have you gained knowledge about an
19 incident where a group of detained Bosnian Muslim men tried to overpower
20 the police guards that were guarding them, even taking the rifle of one
21 guard and killing him and where another guard was injured trying to get
22 that rifle back. Are you aware of such an instance?
23 A. I am aware of an instance at the Kravica warehouse where one
24 Muslim man had grabbed the gun of -- it was -- had grabbed the gun and
25 Rade Cuturic had wrestled the gun away, and shortly after that the men on
1 that side of the warehouse that were kept there were killed.
2 Q. And was it part of your investigation that prior to the incident
3 where the individual tried to overpower and take the gun from this
4 person, that no one had been shot at this location?
5 A. There was not a mass execution prior to this execution, not that
6 I'm aware of, no.
7 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you identified the Kravica warehouse.
8 Would that have been the agricultural warehouse?
9 A. Correct, that's what it was used for.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gallagher, could I ask one clarifying question.
11 Mr. Ivetic asked you that prior to that incident where he grabbed the
12 weapon, whether no one had been shot at this location. Your answer was:
13 "There was not a mass execution prior to this execution," not
14 that you're aware of.
15 You're talking about a mass execution. Mr. Ivetic is asking
16 about any killing. Do you have any recollection that perhaps an
17 individual person held there may have been killed? Because you
18 specifically referred to mass executions.
19 THE WITNESS: No, in terms of what I know specifically about the
20 warehouse, I'm not aware of other executions before that one specifically
21 at the warehouse. I know -- I've read a lot of statements of people in
22 the area, so I have heard statements of executions happening nearby, in a
23 field nearby, adjacent, so that's why I qualified it a little bit. But
24 in terms of inside the warehouse, I'm not aware of anyone being killed in
25 the warehouse until the executions started.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And what is the nearest by, would that be within 50
2 metres from the warehouse or would that be somewhere in the area?
3 THE WITNESS: What I recall is it would have been in the field
4 near the warehouse.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Again, near?
6 THE WITNESS: Whether it's 50 metres, 100 metres, I'm not sure,
7 but I don't mean -- I don't mean the village down the road. I mean in
8 the nearby vicinity as well as a school in Kravica that's a little
9 further away. I would not categorise that as being near the warehouse
10 but the fields surrounding the warehouse.
11 I don't know -- I'm sorry, I don't know the exact location so I
12 don't want to say if it's 100 metres or 50 metres or 150 metres.
13 JUDGE ORIE: In the direct vicinity of the warehouse.
14 THE WITNESS: In the general, yes. I would say in the nearby
15 vicinity of the warehouse.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Now, I want to return just for a moment to your work in updating
20 this book and the information contained in it. You indicated that you
21 did also use the lists or referred to the lists that the demographics
22 unit would have had access to. Did you at any time seek assistance of
23 anyone from the demographics unit to learn how to use or how to
24 understand those lists or that information that they had? I understand
25 it's a database that's at issue. Are we talking about the same thing or?
1 A. I wouldn't have used it myself. It's a number of different --
2 basically a number of different databases that they used to pull together
3 their lists. So I have used the list that -- their updates as to what
4 they have put out regarding the Srebrenica missing persons, so it's their
5 compilation list. So -- in that respect, it's -- I've used the one final
6 list that they created.
7 Q. So you used their finished product?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. Perfect. That answers my question.
10 Thank you for your time.
11 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions for this witness,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
14 Have the questions in cross-examination triggered any need to
15 further examine the witness, Mr. Vanderpuye?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just have a couple of questions,
17 Mr. President. If we can take the break now, it would be fine.
18 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you would need for those
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm guessing 5 or 10 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also looking at the Defence, whether they would
22 prefer -- because otherwise we would have to -- if we could finish now.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would have a preference to continue for
25 5 or 10 minutes.
1 MR. IVETIC: My client is -- would permit to continue.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
5 Q. Ms. Gallagher, you were asked just now a couple of questions
6 about the killings that occurred at the Kravica warehouse on 13 July and
7 in particular asked about the incident concerning an individual who
8 burned his hands in relation to those events. I just want to clarify
9 something with you because I think your answer to Mr. Ivetic's question
10 wasn't clear, at least to me, and that related to whether or not there
11 had been any executions prior to the individual whose hands were burnt in
12 relation to the events there.
13 In terms of the investigation that you've been involved in and
14 your colleagues have been involved in, is there any concrete information
15 as to whether or not the burned hands incident, I'll call it, occurred
16 immediately prior to the executions or during the course of the
17 executions that happened on the 13th? Do you have any concrete
18 information either way which?
19 A. No. It's -- there's many, many, many statements out there
20 regarding that the incident of the burned hands happened early on. There
21 are some that say it precipitated -- some that, yes, the executions had
22 started, the shooting had started already. It's -- and when I mean -- I
23 think it was just early on in the course of the execution or at the
24 beginning. What I don't mean to say is it's at the end. But it's clear
25 it happened sometime early on but I don't know if it was immediately --
1 if it was right before or right at the beginning of when it started.
2 There's many different statements.
3 Q. Okay. You were also asked some questions --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I apologise to the Chamber, I don't have the
5 exact page reference.
6 Q. But you will recall being asked some questions about
7 Ramo Osmanovic. In particular, his clothing, his attire in relation to
8 whether or not he was a member of the Bosnian Muslim army, the ABiH army.
9 And you were asked some questions about their attire and whether or not
10 the individuals in the book were members of the army.
11 In relation to that, I just want to ask you a couple of
12 questions. As concerns the 31 individuals that are listed in the index
13 in the book, in the circumstances or rather the photographs that are
14 depicted in the book are any of those individuals at liberty?
15 A. Meaning that they are free and alive right now?
16 Q. No. Meaning whether or not they are free and alive -- free to go
17 in the photographs that are depicted in the book?
18 MR. IVETIC: I think that calls for a conclusion to be reached,
19 Your Honours, perhaps even a legal one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would rephrase your question, Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
22 Q. What is your understanding of the circumstances, in which the
23 individuals depicted in the photograph, were, at the time that the
24 photographs were filmed, were taken?
25 A. No, I think it's -- it's clear in watching the video and the
1 footage yourself as well as reading the statements that none of these men
2 were free to go, whether that was in Potocari when they were being
3 separated out to go on the buses or that was in Sandici meadow or when
4 they were walking up towards Sandici meadow.
5 Q. Let me just ask this one or two last questions. The last
6 question or topic is the number -- the 31 individuals that are identified
7 in the index of the identification book, rather, is the book limited to
8 the identification of those 31 individuals or does it concern other
9 individuals? And the reason why I ask this is because Mr. Ivetic had
10 asked you about an individual named Mujcinovic who is mentioned in
11 annex 6, I believe it was, item number 20 of this annex as a person who
12 he thought had been indicated as a survivor.
13 As you can see from the index, which is page 5, I think, in
14 e-court, of the book, nobody by the name of Mujcinovic is mentioned among
15 the 31, so I was wondering whether or not the book is meant to include
16 these other individuals or is limited only to the 31 here?
17 A. Right. The 31 individuals that are highlighted in the front part
18 of the book are the ones that we know the status of, one way or the
19 other. There are others as you see that are mentioned. We don't know
20 the status -- even those that are mentioned as missing, we don't know the
21 status, and if that's because they're -- we don't know. Their remains
22 have not been found. If there's nobody in the family alive to ask about
23 locations or their -- anything more about them. So the 31 that are
24 highlighted are the ones that we have more concrete identifications of.
25 Q. In respect of annexes 6 and 7, which refer to communications with
1 the Bosnian authorities, one in annex 6 which concerns certain
2 corrections and annex 7 which also contains additional information
3 concerning the status of certain individuals, have those corrections or
4 considerations been taken into account in this particular iteration of
5 the book?
6 A. Correct. That's why they are not part of the 31 and it's been
7 noted when there has been a correction made, an update made. So those
8 are reflected, obviously, in these annexes, in this correspondence, and
9 they are not a part of the main book.
10 Q. To your knowledge, as the book stands now, is it accurate and
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have nothing
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, have the questions in re-examination
18 triggered any need for further cross-examination?
19 MR. IVETIC: They have not, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Gallagher, this concludes your testimony.
21 I have to look at the Prosecution -- it really concludes the testimony of
22 Ms. Gallagher. Then, Ms. Gallagher, I would like to thank you for coming
23 this short way to this courtroom several times and we thank you for
24 having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties,
25 and by the Bench and you are therefore excused which means that you now
1 can freely communicate again with whom ever you wish to communicate.
2 You may follow the usher.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'll resume at
6 quarter past 12.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness the Prosecution will call is
10 Witness RM313 if I am well informed.
11 MS. HASAN: That's correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we also agreed I think and the Chamber approved
13 a different procedure, Ms. Hasan, the procedure being that you would read
14 the summary of the witness's testimony before he enters the courtroom.
15 MS. HASAN: Yes, thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then you have an opportunity to do so now.
17 MS. HASAN: Thank you, and good afternoon to everyone. Good
18 afternoon, Your Honours.
19 The witness lived in Srebrenica as a young boy. One day, when he
20 remembers being about 7 years old, persons that the witness refers to as
21 Chetniks wearing multi-coloured uniforms forced him and his father onto a
22 green truck with other people. They were blindfolded and taken to a
23 grassy area where they were shot. The witness was then taken to Zvornik
24 hospital where he was treated for his wounds.
25 The witness's evidence relates to the Prosecution's tendered
1 Rule 92 bis evidence of RM247, a driver in the Zvornik Brigade who in
2 July of 1995 was present at the Orahovac execution site. RM247 gives
3 evidence that after the execution stopped, a Muslim boy of about 6 or 7
4 years old emerged from the dead bodies. A mustached Drina Corps
5 lieutenant-colonel who was present at the execution site ordered that the
6 boy be killed, and when no one complied, ordered that he be taken to
7 Orahovac school.
8 RM247 volunteered, and believing that the boy would be killed if
9 taken to the school, took him instead to the hospital in Zvornik.
10 That concludes the summary, Mr. President, and the witness can be
11 called in at this time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we first move into closed session so that the
13 protective measures of face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym
14 will be effectively applied when the witness enters the courtroom.
15 [Closed session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 I hereby put on the record that the witness has already made his
14 solemn declaration when we were still in closed session.
15 Ms. Hasan, you'll examine the witness.
16 Witness, you will first be examined by Ms. Hasan. You will find
17 Ms. Hasan to your right and Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.
18 There she is.
19 Examination by Ms. Hasan:
20 Q. Hello, Witness. Thank you for coming in here today and for being
21 with us. Are you sitting comfortably?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. The headphones are okay on, you can hear everything well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If they slip, you just have to put them a little bit -- the band
1 a little bit higher on your head.
2 A. No, no, everything is all right.
3 Q. Great. It's already been explained to you that no one sees you
4 and your face is not seen and your name is not revealed, and we've
5 discussed this earlier as well. You understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And everyone in this courtroom understands that this can
8 be very difficult for you, so we're just going to take our time and you
9 just let us know if you need a break. Okay?
10 MS. HASAN: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MS. HASAN: Could we call up 65 ter 28937.
13 Q. And just as that comes up, Witness, if there's any questions that
14 I ask you or anyone else asks you that you don't understand, just tell us
15 and we will try to make it a bit more clear for you.
16 MS. HASAN: And if this document cannot be broadcast, please.
17 Q. Okay, Witness, if you just take a look at the screen that's in
18 front of you, without saying anything out loud about what you see, can
19 you tell us if that is your name displayed on that screen?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd offer 65 ter 28937 into evidence
22 under seal.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 28937 receives number?
24 THE REGISTRAR: P1533, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P1533 is admitted under seal.
1 MS. HASAN: Just for a few brief moments can we go into private
2 session, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MS. HASAN: May we have 65 ter 533 [sic] displayed but not
11 broadcast for the public.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you repeat the correct number?
10 Q. Do you remember approximately how old you were at that time?
11 A. Seven.
12 Q. And when the truck arrived at your -- sorry, when the truck
13 arrived, where were you?
14 A. I'm sorry, could you please repeat the question? I didn't
15 understand it completely.
16 Q. Where were you when the truck came?
17 A. At home.
18 Q. And who was with you at home? Were you alone or was someone else
20 A. My father was with me.
21 Q. And can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing?
22 A. My father and I were in the house. My father was changing a
23 bulb. I went to the window and I saw a man with an axe. He came to me
24 and said here are the Chetniks coming towards us and I repeated that to
25 my father. My father said hide yourself under the bed and that's what I
1 did. Later on, the Chetniks came in and found us.
2 Q. Do you remember, Witness, whether it was light or dark outside
3 when you were looking out the window?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what was it? Was it night-time? Was it daytime?
6 A. It was daytime. It was still light.
7 Q. Okay. Now, when these men that you referred to as the Chetniks,
8 when they arrived and they found you in the house, what did they do?
9 A. We went outside. They ordered us to stand. They blindfolded us
10 with white handkerchiefs, we boarded a green truck. My handkerchief fell
11 off but another Chetnik put it back on and tied it very tightly.
12 Q. Now, do you remember today how the Chetniks or what you refer to
13 as the Chetniks were dressed that day?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly.
15 Q. And when you went on this green truck, do you have any
16 recollection of where you were sitting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was your father with you on that truck?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you told us that your blindfold was slipping. Did that
21 happen when you were outside or when you were on the truck?
22 A. While I was on the truck.
23 Q. And how did it come about that the Chetnik tightened your
24 blindfold, do you remember?
25 A. Yes, I could.
1 Q. Can you please tell us?
2 A. Yes, I can. We were on the truck. My father wanted to get up
3 and put a kerchief on me. The Chetnik didn't allow him to do that. He
4 went back to his seat and this Chetnik then approached me and tightened
5 it very tight.
6 Q. Okay. Now, you went on a journey on this truck; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did the truck at some point -- the truck that you were on,
9 did it at some point come to a stop?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us what happened after it came to a stop?
12 A. We got off. They removed the white blindfolds. They ordered us
13 to lie down on our stomachs and they started shooting at us.
14 Q. Do you remember, Witness, what you saw when they removed your
15 blindfold? How did the place look like?
16 A. It was dark.
17 Q. Were you taken somewhere -- was it inside? Was it outside? Were
18 there trees? Were there no trees? Do you remember any of that?
19 A. We got off, got out, and when they took off the blindfolds, I saw
20 it was dark so nothing could be seen any longer.
21 Q. Now, as you were lying -- when they ordered you to lie down, as
22 you were lying down, do you remember anything specifically happening at
23 that point in time? Maybe I can --
24 A. I'm sorry. Excuse me.
25 Q. It's okay. Do you remember telling us about a man who was --
1 that you saw running away and being shot. Do you remember anything about
3 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us what happened?
5 A. He got up and started running away. A Chetnik said, "Stop or
6 I'll shoot." But he continued running. The Chetnik killed him. He fell
7 down on to the ground.
8 Q. And was it after that incident that the shooting began?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, do you remember feeling that you were injured during the
11 shooting? Do you recall any of your sensations?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Would you like to share those with us?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. Do you want me to show you or how do I do it? Shall I show you?
17 Show you where I was wounded? Is that what you want me to do?
18 Q. Yes, you can tell us where you were wounded and then you can show
20 A. Oh, all right. Do I need to stand up?
21 Q. You can stand up, Witness.
22 A. Very well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One second. We have to be very careful with the
24 face distortion. So therefore, I suggest that we -- either you just tell
25 us or otherwise we would have to go into closed session. If you just
1 tell us that is good as well.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd rather show you. I can't
3 describe it. It's much easier for me to demonstrate this to you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now most likely for us to see it you will have
5 to move a bit, so we go into closed session for a second. So if you have
6 just some patience until the curtains are down.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 [Closed session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Witness, Ms. Hasan certainly will have more questions for you.
7 Listen carefully to her.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. Witness, the injuries you just showed us, were those gunshot
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you still have scars at those locations?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I understand that one scar is worse than the other. Can
15 you -- are you able to describe the scar for us?
16 A. Well, I'll do my best, if I can.
17 Q. You can go ahead if you want to describe it but just -- if you
18 can just stay seated. If you can't describe it very well, that's okay.
19 A. It is a little bit difficult.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, is this scar on your knee worse
21 than the scar on your arm?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the one on the leg is the
23 worse. If you touch it, you can feel a sort of hole in the flesh.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what size is that approximately. I'll try
25 to point it out with my fingers, is it like this size or is it larger?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit smaller.
2 JUDGE ORIE: A bit smaller.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately.
4 JUDGE ORIE: A distance of approximately one and a half
5 centimetres with my fingers.
6 I don't know whether we need further details on this, Ms. Hasan.
7 If not, please proceed with any other question you may have.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. Okay. And just to -- just one point of clarification. You also
10 have a scar on your -- above your right elbow; that's correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, let's go back to when you were lying down. Can you tell us
13 where your father was at this point in time?
14 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I don't know where he was. Anyway,
15 he wasn't near me. He was farther away. We were not near each other.
16 Q. Now, after the shooting had stopped, what happened? What did you
18 A. A white jeep approached us with the markings of the Red Cross,
19 came up to the Chetniks, and asked them to let me go. They let me go. I
20 went up close and I got into the white jeep. And that's where I started
21 to bleed.
22 Q. Do you remember where you went in that jeep that you were in?
23 Where did you go?
24 A. To the hospital. To the hospital in Zvornik.
25 Q. When you arrived, were you treated there for your injuries?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you remember what happened?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I can. I was lying down in the bath and I started to
6 resist, shiver, I resisted and then I -- the doctors gave me something.
7 They started to stitch my wounds. Then I was lying down in bed. There
8 was a film and then it finished, and then there was some music and this
9 music frightened me, so I went over there and asked them to turn it off.
10 Q. Do you remember at all how long you stayed in the hospital?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. And after you were at the hospital, where did you go from
13 there, if you remember?
14 A. I went somewhere. I asked who was going to take me and nobody
15 wanted to take me in except my aunt and uncle. They took me in and I'm
16 still living with them.
17 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you a question and it's a
18 difficult one. So if you can't answer it, that's fine. So what I'd like
19 to ask you is if you can share with us how these events that you
20 experienced have impacted your life today?
21 A. It's a difficult question. I cannot answer this question. I'm
22 sorry but I cannot.
23 Q. That's okay. I'm just going to ask you a few more questions
24 about when you came here before and testified in another courtroom at
25 this Tribunal. Okay?
1 A. Yes. Yes, all right.
2 Q. Do you remember coming here in 2007 and you came here again in
3 2010. Do you remember those trips?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you recall the first time you gave -- you came here in
6 2007. Do you recall that we went through the evidence that you gave at
7 that time just a few days ago, we did that?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And were the questions and answers read to you in a language that
10 you understood?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was there anything that was read to you that you want to correct
13 today? Was there anything that was wrong?
14 A. I'm sorry, can you put these questions to me one by one. Then it
15 will be easier for me to answer. Can you do it the way you did earlier?
16 Q. Okay. Let's try it again. When the questions and answers were
17 read to you in your language, do you remember whether any of the answers
18 you had given were not true? Was everything that you had said, was it
20 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. I didn't understand this before. It was
21 difficult. This way I understand what you're asking me.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I would on that basis offer the
24 excerpt from the Popovic testimony into evidence under seal, it's
25 65 ter 28938.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
2 Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28938 receives number P1535,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P1535 is admitted under seal.
6 MS. HASAN:
7 Q. Witness, thank you very much for answering my questions, and it's
8 an honour for you to be in our presence today. And if you wouldn't mind
9 if anyone else has questions for you right now, if you wouldn't mind
10 answering those.
11 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, that concludes my direct examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
13 I have a small question for you. You said you didn't remember
14 exactly how long you --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, go ahead.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't remember how long exactly you stayed in
17 that hospital. Did you stay overnight?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you stay there one night or even more nights?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there for a few nights but I
21 don't know how many. I don't remember that anymore.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
23 Now, Mr. Stojanovic who is seated -- well he's standing up now.
24 Mr. Stojanovic may have some questions for you as well. Carefully listen
25 to them and Mr. Stojanovic.
1 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt, I have just a
2 couple of documents to offer from the bar and I'm more than happy to do
3 it after the conclusion of this testimony if that's suitable.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We would prefer to continue at this moment and then
5 deal with that after.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 You will find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. He's standing now.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day.
10 A. Good day to you.
11 Q. I'm going to put a few questions to you. If you are tired or if
12 you cannot answer, please feel free to tell me, but we are not going to
13 take long. I quite understand the language that you speak and the
14 language that I speak. So what I wanted to ask you was this, can you
15 help me, can you tell me whether that place where you were loaded on to
16 the truck was in the town of Srebrenica itself?
17 A. No, no. It wasn't the town itself. It was just a house there.
18 It was a village. It wasn't the town at all.
19 Q. And are you able to recall the name of the village where you were
20 when you were boarded on to the buses?
21 JUDGE ORIE: One second. We move into private session.
22 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Do you remember how many people there were in the truck that you
1 got into?
2 A. There were many but I don't remember how many people there were.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, would you please switch off your
4 microphone while the witness is answering.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. And are you able to tell me if you remember if it was an open or
7 a closed truck that you were being driven in?
8 A. It was open.
9 Q. And do you remember how long they drove you in this truck?
10 A. Not long. It was a short ride. We got there quickly. It wasn't
11 a long drive.
12 Q. Can you try to orient us how long that was when you say that it
13 wasn't long?
14 A. No, I'm not able to do that.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you recall whether you took an asphalt or a
16 macadam road?
17 A. No, it wasn't an asphalt road.
18 Q. When you were told to get off the truck, was it still day?
19 A. No, no, it was dark.
20 Q. And do you remember if you stopped off anywhere on the way, at a
21 school or at some other building?
22 A. No. No, we didn't stop anywhere.
23 Q. And are you able to remember whether at any point in time you
24 noticed a railway track?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And tell me, that white vehicle with Red Cross markings, did you
2 see when that arrived at the place where you were being shot at?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And do you remember perhaps how many people there were in that
5 vehicle with the Red Cross markings?
6 A. It's difficult for me to answer. Could you please repeat so it's
7 a bit clearer? I didn't quite understand.
8 Q. All right. I will try. We will take it slowly. Do you remember
9 how many people there were in that white vehicle that had the Red Cross
10 sign on it?
11 A. You mean how many of us there were in the white jeep? Is that
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. It was just me and that doctor. No one else. I was sitting in
15 the back and he was in the front. That's all.
16 Q. The people who were shooting, do you remember them? Were they
17 wearing uniforms or civilian clothes?
18 A. I cannot remember them. I cannot remember that now. Before,
20 Q. Do you know how many of those people there were who were
22 A. No. No, I don't.
23 Q. And this doctor who was with you in the white jeep, was he
24 speaking in a language that you understand?
25 A. Yes. Yes, he was.
1 Q. You had a question from the Judges about how long -- about if you
2 remember how long you stayed in the hospital and my colleague also asked
3 you that.
4 A. I cannot remember. It was a few days. I was there for a while
5 but I don't know how long.
6 Q. And how did those doctors and the medical personnel treat you?
7 A. Well. It was fine.
8 Q. And do you remember if they allowed you to go out and to play
9 with other kids?
10 A. No, I don't remember that.
11 Q. Are you able to tell us if you remember how you were taken or
12 driven to meet your family when you were taken from the hospital?
13 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember that.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like
15 us to look at a document, 65 ter 05332, this is a document under seal so
16 I would ask that it not be broadcast. 05332.
17 Q. I am going to ask you to read it for yourself. Don't read it out
18 loud. But do you see that your name is written anywhere on the document?
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. Thank you. Please, again just read it to yourself where you can
21 see in the upper right-hand corner where it says which village you come
22 from. Please don't read it out loud but just tell us whether you recall
23 even slightly the name of this village?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Is that the place where you lived before you were brought?
1 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And is that where you were staying at the point in time when you
3 were boarded on to the truck and taken away?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at
6 page 2 of this document and I repeat, this is a document under seal and
7 it should not be broadcast outside of the courtroom.
8 Q. I would just like to read a passage to you and I want to ask you
9 something if you can remember it. In paragraph 2 here, it states that
10 while you were staying with us, you adapted gradually. In the beginning
11 was pretty nervous, did not communicate that much with other children.
12 And then in time, he fit in and played with other children.
13 Do you remember what I have just put to you now, that you did
14 have the opportunity to play with other children?
15 A. I don't remember that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
17 MS. HASAN: This is quite confusing for him to confirm what's in
18 this report. He's already said he doesn't recall the treatment, his
19 treatment during his stay in the hospital.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, apart from it's not very relevant,
21 Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to finish quickly with
23 this document. I will do my best to be as specific as possible.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you refer to the document, you should
25 adequately summarize if you want to put it to the witness and not use the
1 language of the report itself which is official language. You should
2 paraphrase as accurate as possible.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
4 Q. Are you able to remember what the weather was like, what the
5 season of the year was when you were taken from the hospital to your
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
10 tender this document under seal in view of the contents of the document
11 and also the note on the bottom.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
13 MS. HASAN: No objections.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05332 receives number D304, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: D304 is admitted into evidence under seal.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I would just
19 like to move into private session for the last few questions that I have.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 12272 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 Witness RM313, this concludes your testimony in this courtroom
8 and the Chamber but also the Prosecution and the Defence, we are all very
9 glad that you came to answer all the questions we have although it may
10 not have been easy for you.
11 The more we appreciate that you came and we wish you a very safe
12 journey home again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you wait for a second, then the curtains will be
15 down again and after that, you can move, you can follow the usher and
16 he'll escort you out of the courtroom.
17 We turn into closed session.
18 [Closed session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Ms. Hasan.
6 MS. HASAN: I showed the witness a photograph in which he
7 recognised himself in which is now P1534. Now, this photograph has been
8 extracted from an ICRC notice looking for a family that would claim him.
9 This is -- we can call it up. It's 65 ter 28009 and it should not be
11 Okay. So this is the document here, that is the photograph that
12 I had shown him without any of the text, and we see his name recorded
13 there, the name of his father, as well as other information including
14 that he's presently at the Zvornik hospital. I'd like to offer this
15 document from the bar table.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28009 receives P1536, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
21 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President. That's all.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's all. Then I repeat now my question whether
23 the -- there is any Prosecution witness ready to follow after the break.
24 MS. HASAN: Yes, the next Prosecution witness is ready.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first take a break and resume at a
1 quarter to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
5 MS. HASAN: Mr. President just while the witness is brought in,
6 there was a transcript that we were using with the Petrovic video that we
7 were watching. That transcript was not the most updated --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, first of all you're not supposed to
9 speak when someone else is speaking and second if you want to speak, you
10 should do it at a lower volume.
11 Ms. Hasan.
12 MS. HASAN: That transcript was not the updated version we have,
13 in fact, there was a version that was worked on by the Prosecution in
14 collaboration with Mr. Stojanovic and his team during the Popovic trial
15 and that is the most recent one, so we've replaced the transcript.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you need the approval of the Chamber --
19 Madam Registrar needs the approval of the Chamber to replace anything in
20 e-court, but we'll deal with that later. Let's first focus at this
21 moment on -- good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.
22 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to remind you that you are still
24 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
25 testimony. There is no need to repeat it but you are bound by it still.
1 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
2 JUDGE ORIE: The examination-in-chief will now continue.
3 Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN: Yes. Just to go back to that transcript because we
5 will be using the new transcript during this part of the examination.
6 The video and the road book -- sorry, the video itself was not MFI'd and
7 hasn't been entered into evidence yet, so we did replace the transcript
8 in e-court with a new one.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. If it's not yet MFI'd or admitted,
10 then you can still upload the version you wish in e-court.
11 Now you want to tender them?
12 MS. HASAN: I can wait to do that at the end. I have a few
13 corrections to references I made to the transcript before, but we can do
14 that at the very end.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The very end of testimony of this witness.
16 MS. HASAN: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for that. But we are now on notice
18 that a new version has been uploaded. Please proceed.
19 Examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]
20 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. I'd like to pull up now the transcript we've been talking about
23 that's attached to 65 ter 24222.
24 MS. HASAN: I repeat: It's 24222.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the --
1 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, I misspoke. It's 22422.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but whatever is the case, it seems that the
3 computers are not yet -- there we are.
4 MS. HASAN: If we could have pages 10 in English and 11 in the
5 B/C/S, please.
6 Q. Witness, if you remember, we were discussing a conversation that
7 took place on the road via Motorola, and if we could actually -- the
8 conversation begins on this page but let's turn to page 11 in English and
9 the next page in the B/C/S.
10 Witness, you see at the top of the page there we had previously
11 discussed this conversation where we hear Ljubisa Borovcanin say Oficir,
12 Bor, and you told us what those mean. I just want to get some
13 clarification from you and that is the way that's being said there by
14 Mr. Borovcanin, Oficir, Bor, that type of introduction, does that give us
15 any clues as to who the conversation is between?
16 A. Yes, Your Honour. Here we see Ljubisa Borovcanin using the
17 code-name or nickname of another officer, Oficir, in fact, calling him to
18 the radio, and this is typical police conversation, not police, not only
19 police but armed forces conversation through the radio handset -- radio,
20 for example. If somebody calls somebody or just using his first whatever
21 code-name or name, and introducing himself, he is using the short way to
22 introducing himself. He called Oficir, Bor. It means Borovcanin calling
23 Oficir and introducing himself as Bor.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. In fact, Your Honour, if I may correct, he is talking -- this
1 is -- translation here is "officer" but it was the exact word from B/C/S
2 was translated because the name of this person, the proper name is
3 Rade Cuturic and his nickname is "Oficir," and it was translated in this
5 MS. HASAN: Thank you for that. If we could now play the
6 Petrovic video where we left off. So that's 22422 and we pick up at 19
7 minutes, 10 seconds.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MS. HASAN: It appears we don't have any sound. If we could just
10 pause it and ...
11 Perhaps we can -- yeah, perhaps we can try again and see.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MS. HASAN: Sorry, it's still very low, the sound. I can barely
14 hear what's being said.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I can hear some voices in the background but the
16 ramble is by far stronger than what we are supposed to hear. Is it the
17 quality of the material or is it a technical problem?
18 MS. HASAN: Well, as far as I can recall, the last time we played
19 it in fact we heard it a little bit better than this. So I don't think
20 it's the quality of the video itself.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 MS. HASAN: In fact, the questions I intend to ask don't relate
23 to what's being said because it's only for the benefit of the Defence
24 because we see what's being said here in English.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to play it again from the beginning, and
1 if we have no sound, we still have the text. It's not complete then but
2 if the Defence needs any additional explanation, then we'll hear from
3 them. Could we restart where we started a minute ago.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MS. HASAN: Could we just stop it right there? Perfect. And if
6 we can -- sorry, that's at 21 minutes and 3 seconds.
7 Q. Witness, could you just remind us where we are along the road
9 A. We are on the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje. We are more or less
10 in the location very near Sandici meadow.
11 Q. And if we could turn to the road book itself to the hard copies.
12 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, if you have those before you at page 50
13 and 51. I believe that the Defence now has B/C/S versions of the road
14 book in hard copy and that would assist now if we could give the witness
15 also a copy of the road book.
16 Q. Okay. So we've almost stopped it here at the image we see on
17 page 50 labelled video still B, and we see that we're about 100 metres
18 from Sandici meadow. And, Witness, can you tell us is Mr. Borovcanin
19 with Mr. Petrovic at this point in time when they've stopped here along
20 the road?
21 A. Yes, Mr. Borovcanin is entire time with Zoran Petrovic,
22 Pirocanac. I believe if we played that video, Mr. Borovcanin is visible
23 here from -- on this picture a little bit behind the guy with blue helmet
24 we see in the back -- in the back we see the car used also by
25 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Pirocanac. This is Mr. Borovcanin.
1 Q. We will get to that image in just a few moments. Now, these
2 persons we see in image A and B, can you tell us what units they're from
3 if you know?
4 A. These two person visible on this picture A and B, and they are
5 members of the Jahorina unit. I believe they are members of the
6 1st Company of Jahorina unit commanded by Mane Djuric.
7 Q. And we saw on the video that they're pointing their guns
8 downwards, their rifles. Can you tell us what it is that they're aiming
9 at or directing their rifles at?
10 A. Below this road there is a stream going along the road, call it
11 Krivace river, and this is quite few metres slope, and the people who are
12 walking along the -- through the woods or through the hills on the
13 right-hand side from, if you look at this picture here, they were --
14 were -- when they were surrendering to the Serb soldiers, they were going
15 down to -- from the hill towards this direction towards the road and then
16 taken to Sandici meadow.
17 Q. We see here in video still C on page 50 as well as the photograph
18 number 3 on page 51, what have you tried to capture there?
19 A. I would like to show on these two pictures that this is a creek
20 or river just running along this road.
21 Q. And can we in fact hear the river or creek on the video?
22 A. Yeah, I believe we hear the creek on the video, but the river I
23 don't know that is very well visible but it's possible to see it.
24 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, we didn't have very good sound on that.
25 If we -- if there is a need later, we can go back to it but ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we heard ramble rather than murmuring streams,
2 yes. Please proceed.
3 MS. HASAN: Okay. If we can continue then playing the video just
4 for a few more seconds, please.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MS. HASAN: If we can pause it right there. That's at 21 minutes
7 and 14 seconds.
8 Q. Witness, if we can turn now to page 52 and 53 now in our books.
9 We almost have the image on our screens, that's on page 52, video still
10 B. Can you tell us who the persons are that we see in that video still
12 A. Here we see Ljubisa Borovcanin with a soldier with blue helmet.
13 It looks for me that this is soldier of special forces brigade because if
14 you look at his left arm, it's visible at least partially, the badge of
15 Special Police Brigade, and the man bending towards the open door of the
16 car behind it, I believe this is Mr. Borovcanin driver, Nedjo -- his
17 first name is Nedjo.
18 Q. Okay. And if we just look at our screens, we in fact see another
19 person there. Do you know who that is? A fourth person.
20 A. You are referring to, sorry?
21 JUDGE ORIE: You are referring, Ms. Hasan, I take it, to the
22 person who is to the right of the person bending over looking into the
24 MS. HASAN: Yes, the man who appears to be wearing a black
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: I do not recall at this moment.
3 MS. HASAN:
4 Q. Okay. And can you tell us whether you know whose vehicle that is
5 that we see there, the silver or white coloured vehicle?
6 A. This is silver white colour vehicle. This is the vehicle used by
7 Mr. Borovcanin and his driver and of course Mr. Pirocanac. According to
8 the statement given to us by Mr. Borovcanin's driver, it is SEAT Toledo,
9 and on the roof we see aerial also, the radio aerial.
10 Q. Now, the man that you refer to wearing the blue helmet, does that
11 helmet in fact belong to that unit or which force do the blue helmets
12 belong to?
13 A. No, this type of helmet was never used by special police brigade
14 at least in the Jahorina unit. That was used by UNPROFOR soldier. As I
15 see here, it could be used by UNPROFOR. It could be UNPROFOR equipment.
16 MS. HASAN: Okay. Let's continue playing the video.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MS. HASAN: Just stop it right there. I'm sorry, if we could
19 pause it right there. That's at 21 minutes and 59 seconds. And if we
20 can turn to pages 54 and 55 in the road book.
21 Q. Witness, now we saw on the video and we see here on page 54 of
22 your book men that appear to be walking. Can you tell us first where we
23 are at this point in time?
24 A. Your Honour, we are in the back side of -- in fact -- yeah, on
25 the left-hand side of this white destroyed house across the road of
1 Sandici meadow, and these men, they are walking from the fields, and
2 walking across -- they are passing this white destroyed house and they
3 are passing the road. They are taken to Sandici meadow.
4 Q. How is it that you have determined that they are in fact passing
5 the destroyed white house?
6 A. If you follow the movement of the camera, if you see the location
7 over there, if you compare, for example, having this -- my picture from
8 Petrovic video C from page 54, and let's say picture 1 and picture 2
9 from -- on page 55, you see that this is the house, this destroyed white
10 house. Later on, we can see also -- also more details of this house.
11 Q. Okay. We'll get back to the house. And in photograph 3 that's
12 on page 55 of your book, you have an arrow marked CAB. Is that the path
13 that you've determined these men to have taken?
14 A. Yes, exactly. Here I marked by this arrow, I marked the path
15 which was used by the men taken to Sandici meadow.
16 Q. And have you taken that path yourself?
17 A. Yes, I did. I was there so many times.
18 Q. The hills in fact that we see behind the destroyed white house,
19 for example, in photograph 1, are those the same hills that we earlier in
20 the Petrovic video saw the Pragas shooting towards. Is that the same
21 direction, the same right side of the road or is it another side?
22 A. No, this is the same side of the road. This is the same hills.
23 Q. And when you had referred to the men walking, coming from the
24 hills, are those the hills you are referring to?
25 A. Yes, you are right. I'm referring to these hills behind this
1 white destroyed house.
2 MS. HASAN: Okay. We can continue playing the video, please.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MS. HASAN: If we could pause it right there, please. That's at
5 23 minutes and 8 seconds.
6 Q. Now, if we turn the pages again in your book, pages 56 and 57, we
7 see you've captured some of the images from that portion of the video
8 clip. Now, can you tell us -- Witness, at the beginning of that clip we
9 saw, and we see them a little bit in photo still image B, some uniformed
10 persons. Can you tell us if you know who they are?
11 A. On the still B from the page 56, we see the members of PJP unit.
12 I do not recall their names now, but I'm sure that they are members of
13 PJP. They have been recognised by us and they were interviewed by OTP.
14 Q. Okay. And in terms of figuring out the path that they took which
15 you appear to have marked on page 57 in your photograph, can you tell us
16 what you used to determine that path, what features?
17 A. Location of this white destroyed house, shape of the road, the
18 path, shape of the terrain.
19 Q. Okay. And if you can just assist us a little bit. On the video
20 still images you've captured --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, I'm looking at the clock, it's quarter
22 past 2.00. I think we should continue tomorrow.
23 Mr. Blaszczyk, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30
24 in this same courtroom I, and I again instruct you that should not speak
25 with anyone about your testimony whether testimony already given or
1 testimony still to be given.
2 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may follow the usher.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
6 Friday, the 7th of June at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom I.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of June,
9 2013, at 9.30 a.m.