Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12194

 1                           Thursday, 6 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that both parties had

10     preliminary matters to raise.

11             Mr. Groome.

12             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The next witness,

13     RM313, was a young boy when he survived the massacre at Orahovac, a

14     massacre of approximately a thousand people.  Recounting those events is

15     obviously itself a difficult and traumatic thing.  Yesterday we gave the

16     Chamber and the defence notice that I would be asking for us to change

17     the ordinary procedural practice regarding the taking of a witness's

18     evidence by 92 ter.  We are asking that prior to the witness entering the

19     court, we be permitted to read a summary of his evidence.  Further, that

20     the summary contain some facts related to the evidence of RM247, a person

21     who a 92 bis application is pending.  A basic understanding of RM247's

22     evidence is essential to understanding RM313's evidence.  Second that we

23     be allowed to ask RM313 to tell the Court what he remembers of that day.

24     If he is emotionally able to do that, we may not ultimately tender his

25     92 ter evidence.  If he is unable, we will then proceed to lay a


Page 12195

 1     foundation for 92 ter.

 2             We expect that today's schedule may move a bit quicker than

 3     originally anticipated, so I raise it now so that the Chamber can

 4     deliberate upon this request.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any response to the request.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague Stojanovic will cross-examine that

 7     witness and I think that he already spoke with Mr. Groome and he agreed

 8     that he has no objections to this proceeding.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course we are informed through an informal

10     communication.

11             Mr. Groome you may proceed as you had suggested.

12             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

15             I have to address the issue that arose yesterday during the

16     cross-examination of Witness Momir Nikolic.  The witness I want to

17     address is the confusion whether my colleague Petrusic knew about the

18     statement of Momir Nikolic about General Mladic's gesture which he

19     understood that meant to kill everybody.

20             My colleague Petrusic invoked four statements of Momir Nikolic,

21     one from 28th, 29th, and the 30th of May, and the fourth one of 12th of

22     June.  To try to understand these statements, Your Honours would first

23     have to have the translation.  There is no translation of these

24     transcripts since it was audio recorded and then transcribed.  There is

25     no translation in the e-court.  And at this moment, first of all, we


Page 12196

 1     request for the translation, full translation of these transcripts to be

 2     entered into the e-court.

 3             Based on these statements, actually transcripts, the investigator

 4     Bursik compiled a report on 23rd of June, 2003.  In this report, he

 5     stated on page 7 -- and that report is in our system as 1D1005.  He

 6     stated that based on these transcripts, from 28th, 29th and the 30th of

 7     May, 2003, he concluded and he was told allegedly by Mr. Nikolic that

 8     Nikolic already told him about this gesture.

 9             Our investigation that we conducted yesterday and we will

10     continue to do so showed there is no mention of that gesture in any of

11     these statements -- transcripts.  My colleague Ivetic is always

12     correcting me that it's transcript since it's audio recorded.  Not a

13     single mention.

14             So we claim now that the first time this gesture is mentioned is

15     in this Bursik's report, never ever before that.  Only after this report,

16     Momir Nikolic testified in Blagojevic case and mentioned this gesture.

17             So that's why we ask for full translation of all transcripts from

18     all four days of the testimony -- interview of Milomir Nikolic, and we

19     ask you to carefully examine and evaluate both interviews and Bursik's

20     report and we will continue our investigation.  We will address this

21     Court again on this issue, and at this moment we claim there is nothing

22     in these interviews regarding this gesture.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you talking about four interviews or three

24     interviews?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Four, Your Honour.


Page 12197

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Four interviews.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, the interesting part is that those

 3     interviews in B/C/S have 142 pages.  And there is six pages in English

 4     only.  And those six pages in English you cannot find in B/C/S in

 5     e-court.  And including those extra six English pages, there is no

 6     mentioning of this gesture.  So there is 142 pages in B/C/S, none

 7     translated in English, and there is six pages in English not translated

 8     into B/C/S.

 9             We want full translation in both languages and we claim there is

10     no such a claim by Momir Nikolic made before this report.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider your request.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider your claim as well.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I make one observation at this point in time.  If

16     all this has not been verified before the testimony of this witness,

17     Mr. Petrusic had only one source, a source which said that Mr. Nikolic

18     had told them something about a gesture.  He, referring to the four

19     interviews, said why did you never say it during those four interviews.

20     Now, it may well be that mistakes are made but as matters stood

21     yesterday, Mr. Petrusic could only have assumed that it was mentioned and

22     that is what Mr. Petrusic yesterday confirmed.  And we leave it to that.

23     We'll consider -- leave it to that at this very moment.  We'll consider

24     your request that everything be translated and transcribed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Petrusic, if I may, told me yesterday when we met


Page 12198

 1     that he was confused with this report and that's why he said yes, I know

 2     that he told -- said that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yesterday he told us something totally different.

 4     He said I made a mistake.  It's wrong what I did.  I did it not

 5     intentionally but I made that mistake.  That's what we have in the

 6     transcript.  We'll further consider the matter as we said yesterday, and

 7     we now include your request for having a full translation of the

 8     material.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, relevant to this, Ms. Stewart informs

11     me that the entire transcript both English and original B/C/S was

12     disclosed to the Defence.  All of the transcripts are not in e-court but

13     they have all been disclosed.  And if there's any trouble that the Mladic

14     Defence has experienced finding those, we're available to assist them,

15     but based on Ms. Stewart's checking the records, there have been full

16     transcripts and they have been disclosed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you to my learned friend.  Then it will be make

18     this process easier.  We'll have translations very soon.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that request, if it is found in disclosed

20     material is therefore moot and --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Only -- sorry, it's the Prosecutor's 65 ter exhibit,

22     so they should upload the translation.  So it's not moot, I think.  It's

23     25717.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether we need it in e-court is a different

25     matter.  The first thing you need is to verify on the basis of that


Page 12199

 1     material and that material is therefore apparently available.  If it is

 2     not uploaded, I take it that Mr. Groome will assist you.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, Judge Fluegge would have --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course the Chamber under the present

 7     circumstances having to some extent initiated the matter, of course we'd

 8     like to have this material available as well.  Not as evidence at this

 9     moment but -- while evidence on the incident rather than evidence in the

10     case.

11             MR. GROOME:  Just so I'm clear, is the Chamber requesting that

12     the Prosecution send it the transcripts of the material?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'd like to have that.  We would like to be

14     able to verify the claim made by Mr. Lukic and therefore we need to have

15     a look at that material.

16             MR. GROOME:  Okay.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to make a comment on Mr. Groome's

19     earlier comment.  You said that the transcripts have been disclosed to

20     the Defence.  I didn't think the Defence is complaining that it was not

21     disclosed.  They're asking for translations.  Do you have them

22     translated?

23             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, sorry if I wasn't clear.  So the

24     original transcript of the conversation or the interview in both

25     languages has been disclosed to the Defence.


Page 12200

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 2             MR. GROOME:  We did not -- they are not on the 65 ter list.  It

 3     was the Defence that put -- loaded up in e-court the summary of those

 4     that was used with the witness yesterday, but the others -- we're happy

 5     to undertake that if it's more convenient for everyone, but certainly

 6     they are available to the Defence equally to upload into e-court to use

 7     with the witness.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Again, I'm not clear when my colleague said that it's

 9     not on 65 ter list.  Those interviews are all under 65 ter number 25717.

10             MR. GROOME:  Perhaps I have some misinformation, so I will check

11     that and speak to Mr. Lukic at the break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, one thing is now certain and that's how

13     it should be is that all relevant material is available to whomever is

14     involved in this incident.

15             If there's no further matter, we could ask the witness to be

16     escorted into the courtroom.  And that's what I do.

17             Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. President, Your

19     Honours.  Good morning everyone.  I just wanted, while the witness was

20     coming in, to put on the record that 65 ter 22287A, that was excerpt of

21     the video that I played yesterday, is now in e-court and it was assigned

22     P151A, I believe.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think it was -- well, it was MFI'd because

24     other portions might be added to it later and in order to avoid that it's

25     split up in all smaller parts that we keep it like that for the time


Page 12201

 1     being.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the 65 ter was 65 ter 22287A, for the record.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  22287A.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting, but P number looks also

 7     too small.  If it's introduced yesterday.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, 1518.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have now everything in the proper order

10     on the transcript.  Yes, P1518 is MFI'd as I said before and keep that

11     status for the time being.

12             Good morning, Ms. Gallagher.  I'd like to remind you again that

13     you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

14     beginning of your testimony.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye will now continue his examination.

16             Please proceed.

17                           WITNESS:  ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much Mr. President.

19                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning to you, Ms. Gallagher.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Yesterday when we broke I was just about to ask you this

23     question.  In the course of carrying out the assignment to update the

24     information contained in the book, the Muslim identification book, any

25     instance -- did you, rather, encounter any instance when you were


Page 12202

 1     reviewing conflicting information as to the identity or the status of any

 2     given individual?

 3        A.   There were certainly two occasions where there was a missing

 4     person that had been identified as missing and in reviewing all that I

 5     could, I wasn't able to confidently establish their status, so those

 6     remained as missing -- as a missing status.

 7             Other times, I mean as you will note, sometimes there's some

 8     slight discrepancies in the age of the person.  So I've had to

 9     double-check and look at once again the totality of the information in

10     order to confidently conclude that they were either missing or found in a

11     mass grave.

12        Q.   And were you able to determine if there were statements regarding

13     the identity or the status of each individual that's indicated in the

14     book?

15        A.   There are statements in different forms for every person in the

16     book.  There are several of the men that were identified as having

17     survived where there is not a statement from a -- from a witness or that

18     person themselves.  It is explained in the letter, in the annexes, annex

19     7 I believe it is.  So it's a very brief statement that explains that

20     they have survived but not a statement from that person themselves, aside

21     from I believe two people.  Everyone else there is a statement that --

22     some sort of statement that accompanies the identification.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go very briefly back to 65 ter

25     28795.  This is the book itself.  And we'll need to go to page 7 which we


Page 12203

 1     saw yesterday very briefly.

 2             I think I must have misspoke.  Ah, okay.  28975.  I'm sorry.  I

 3     inverted the numbers.  28975, that's the book.  Thank you.  It's page 3,

 4     I believe, in the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, page 2.  Okay.

 5        Q.   This particular page we saw yesterday very briefly, and here we

 6     have the indication of Sefko Mujic number 3 and Ahmo Mehmedovic as having

 7     been identified by Pasaga Mesic, the police officer that you mentioned

 8     before.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just for the Chamber's reference, you will find

10     a reference to these two individuals having been identified in an annex 3

11     and that's at page 40 -- e-court pages, I'm sorry, 40 to 41 in the

12     English and 48 to 49 in the B/C/S.

13             For the Chamber's reference, you'll find these at transcript

14     references in Mr. Mesic's Rule 61 testimony, transcript pages 56 and 57.

15     That may make it easier for you to see.

16             Perhaps it might be easier if just we go there in e-court.  So it

17     would be e-court pages 40 to 41, so let's start at 40, in the B/C/S it's

18     48.  At the bottom of the page, line 28, you'll see an individual.

19     You'll see the reference to Sefko Mujic.

20        Q.   Do you see that, Ms. Gallagher?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   And if you go to the next page we will see -- I'm sorry, go to

23     the next page, which is page 57 in the English -- not 57, rather it is

24     e-court page 41, there we have it now.  You'll see Ahmo Mehmedovic at

25     line 3 and you'll see Meho Mehmedovic at line 8.  Do you see that,


Page 12204

 1     Ms. Gallagher?

 2        A.   I do.

 3        Q.   And we have an indication with respect to all three as having

 4     been identified on photographic exhibits to this statement.  Did you

 5     review the photographic exhibits, first of all, referenced in this

 6     statement?

 7        A.   I did.

 8        Q.   And do they correspond to the identifications indicated at page 7

 9     of the book as we've just seen it?

10        A.   Yes, they do.

11        Q.   Okay.  What I'd like to do is to go to annex 1 of the book and

12     that's at page 31 in e-court.  I don't think we have a translation for

13     the title page.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  So for the benefit of counsel and

15     General Mladic, I'll read it.  It says:

16             "Annex 1:  Identification Table of Missing Bosnian Muslims."

17        Q.   And what I'd like to do then is to go to the next page of it so

18     you can tell us what this is about.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  So if we can go, please, to page 32, the next

20     page in e-court, and rotate it.

21        Q.   Perhaps you can walk us through this.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Your Honour?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there any problem with broadcasting this

25     table.


Page 12205

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There isn't.

 2             THE WITNESS:  As you see it's a table of the men and actually one

 3     woman that are identified as missing in the book.  You'll see that it's

 4     organised alphabetically by the identified person, and with that there is

 5     the original ERN number which is of the photograph which is what you see

 6     in the book, and then the ERN of the statement of the person who

 7     identified them.

 8             So in the first -- the first row, you see Bajazad Delic

 9     identified by Sevda Habibovic.  The statement that Sevda Habibovic gave

10     is that ERN that's listed there with the identification date, the

11     relation to the identified person, Mr. Delic, and any other further

12     details and every identification is made like this.

13             It's colour co-ordinated as you see between those identifications

14     that were made by the Tuzla AID, which is the agency for investigation

15     and documentation, versus those in red that were made by the OTP

16     investigators at the time in the year 2000.

17             And then there are several letter in blue that you'll see at the

18     bottom of the legend where there are statements concerning an individual

19     which Mesic did not testify about.  So all the underlying statements of

20     the identifications are of the missing of in this table.  They're also

21     the ones that Pasaga Mesic had testified to as well.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review all of these statements

24     that are indicated here?

25        A.   I've read all these statements.


Page 12206

 1        Q.   All right.  I have a number of them on my exhibit list.  I won't

 2     go through all of them.  But if we could take a look, for example, at

 3     65 ter 25741 and that relates to the identification of Kasim Hafizovic.

 4             I think we should not broadcast this one, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I take it that you have considered

 6     whether we have to move in private session if this cannot be broadcast.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I was just going to ask to move into private

 8     session, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:

11        Q.   Ms. Gallagher, is this one of the statements that you reviewed in

12     relation to --

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12207

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  What I'd like to do now briefly --

24     Mr. President, first I have a number of these types of statements,

25     clearly not all of them, but I'd like to tender them - if the Defence


Page 12208

 1     doesn't object - without having to lead Ms. Gallagher through all of them

 2     in relation to the identification of the individuals that are listed in

 3     annex 1.  They are on my exhibit list and you'll see that really there

 4     are about a handful of them, maybe about 8 or so, or if you think there's

 5     further foundation that I need to make, I'm fine to do that as well.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first hear what the Defence's position is.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I have no objection to proceeding as counsel has

 8     indicated.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and it's a selection, I do understand.  It's a

10     selection of those.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Madam Registrar -- how many are there exactly, Mr. Vanderpuye?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm sorry, just bear with me one moment.  I'm

15     sorry, Mr. President.  I believe 10.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And there --

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There are actually 11.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] is that --

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There's one on -- well, I'm sorry, that's right.

20     It's 10.  P1024 is already admitted.  So yes, ten, thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We could go through them very quickly.  I

22     think the first one is 25739.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You find it on your list.

25             Receives, Madam Registrar, number?


Page 12209

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P1519.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 3             Does it need to be able to seal, Mr. -- no need?

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, it doesn't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Next one 25740.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1520, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 9             The next one.  I'm following your list, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The next one is 741.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  25741.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1521, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

14             25742.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1522, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

17             25743.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1523, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

20             25744.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1524, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             25745.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1525, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.


Page 12210

 1             25746.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1526, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 4             25747.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1527, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             25748.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P1528, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Those are ten you had in mind, Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

13             What I'd like to do if we could is go back very quickly to the

14     book 28795, 65 ter number.  We'll go to page 9 in the English and page 4

15     in the B/C/S.

16             Did I get the number wrong again?  It's 28975.  Thank you very

17     much.

18        Q.   Here we have an individual who is identified as Mesa Efendic.

19     Did you review any other information in order to one confirm his

20     identity; and two, to confirm his status?

21        A.   Yes, I read the underlying statements that were made in 1996 and

22     then also ones in the year 2000.  I also reviewed the ICRC missing list

23     and the ICMP database as well as exhumation reports and autopsy reports

24     and photographs.

25        Q.   What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 25736.  First, do you


Page 12211

 1     recognise what's on the screen now?

 2        A.   Yes, that's an autopsy report.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And what I'd like to do is to show you two things at the

 4     same time and that is the page we just saw in the book, which is -- I'll

 5     try again, 65 ter 28975, page 9, together with the autopsy report.  And I

 6     won't be able to do the autopsy report or show it in two languages, but

 7     I'd like to divide the screen so we can look at both at the same time.

 8             In this particular autopsy report we can see that it refers to

 9     the Kozluk grave site and identifies a case number KK3 543B.  And it says

10     the cause the death near the bottom where the signature is just above it

11     in the box.  It says:

12             "Cause of death was gunshot wounds in the head and pelvic region

13     (back)."

14             If we can go to the next page in the autopsy report, we see a

15     description of the clothing of this individual identified as KK3 543B.

16     Included there -- I just want to draw your attention to that.  Have you

17     seen this page before?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   And were you aware of any other information -- well, were you

20     aware of any information linking this autopsy report to the individual

21     that's depicted on the left of the screen?

22        A.   Yes, from the ICMP data base he is listed in the data base with

23     that case ID number.

24        Q.   And here we can see the description of an individual wearing a

25     red cardigan and wearing a striped light colour pajamas bottoms and so on


Page 12212

 1     and so forth.  Did you review that?  In particular, it says dark striped

 2     pants, red cardigan - that's short sleeves.  Did you review that

 3     particular information in relation to the photograph depicted on the left

 4     at page 9 in the identification book?

 5        A.   Yes, I had read that as well.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I'd like to show you now -- well, first I'd

 7     like to admit this autopsy report if I could, Mr. President.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25736 receives number P1529,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1529 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What I'd like to do while we still have the

14     picture on the book -- of the book rather on the left is to upload next

15     to that photograph the following photograph from the exhumation which is

16     65 ter 6362.

17             It's a little bit difficult to see.  Perhaps this way if we could

18     flip it around to the left 90 degrees in might be bigger.  The other way

19     around.  There we go.  If we could stand it up.  Turn it one more to the

20     right 90 degrees.  Okay.  Maybe we can blow it up.  Okay.

21        Q.   Did you review -- first of all, do you recognise this photograph,

22     Ms. Gallagher?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to review that in relation to the

25     information in the autopsy report?


Page 12213

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And does it bear the same identification number as the autopsy

 3     report?

 4        A.   It does.

 5        Q.   And does the autopsy report bear the same identification number

 6     as the information you reviewed in the DNA data base?

 7        A.   It does.

 8        Q.   And to your knowledge, has the individual 543 KK3 been identified

 9     as Mesa Efendic in the ICMP data base?

10        A.   Yes, he has been.

11        Q.   And being an experienced investigator, are you satisfied that the

12     information on which you updated the status of Mesa Efendic in the book

13     was accurate and reliable?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I move to admit this photograph

17     as well.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06362 receives number P1530,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to continue

24     with, very briefly, with the following document.  We'd have to do this I

25     think in -- I'd like to upload 65 ter 28976.  This shouldn't be


Page 12214

 1     broadcast.  And I think we should do it in private session as well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12215

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]


Page 12216

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Therefore the Prosecution -- the photo book, Muslim photo book,

 4     is tendered.

 5             Madam Registrar, is number?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  It was 65 ter number 28975.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  And it receives number P1532, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P1532 is admitted into evidence.  No need to have it

10     under seal, Mr. Vanderpuye?

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No, Mr. President, there isn't.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I put on the record that in private

13     session, the Defence already expressed that they had no objection to the

14     admission of P1532.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

16     direct examination.  Thank you very much, Ms. Gallagher.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             Mr. Ivetic, we have 10 minutes left until the break.  I leave it

19     up to you, whether you consider it useful to already have those first 10

20     minutes or otherwise take an early break.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Let with check with my client and see what he would

22     prefer.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. IVETIC:  I think we should take the break early and then I

25     will I believe conclude my cross within the next session.


Page 12217

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break.

 2             Ms. Gallagher, you can follow the usher.  We would like to see

 3     you back in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 20 minutes to 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Ms. Gallagher be escorted into the courtroom.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gallagher, you will now be cross-examined by

11     Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic is member of the defence team of Mr. Mladic.

12             Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

15        Q.   Good day, Ms. Gallagher.

16        A.   Good day.

17        Q.   As was the case last time that we had occasion to hear your

18     testimony in this courtroom, I would like to remind you that since we

19     both speak English we should be mindful to maintain a pause between

20     answer and question to permit the court reporters and translators to do

21     their job.  Is that fair, ma'am?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   I'd like to first talk about some of these AID statements that

24     you have talked about during your direct examination and on the exhibit

25     list now we have a number of them, I believe ten.


Page 12218

 1             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up, and perhaps not broadcast it just

 2     to be on the safe side, Exhibit P1523 as an example of one of these.

 3        Q.   And while we wait for that to come up in e-court, madam, can I

 4     ask you that as a result of your investigative work, can you confirm that

 5     the AID agency for investigation and documentation was in fact staffed by

 6     the former secret police of the army of BiH side?

 7        A.   I want to be cautious in saying I don't know who the individuals

 8     are that were a part of the AID, if they were all secret, if there's a

 9     combination of civilian police.  I would defer probably to Pasaga Mesic's

10     testimony regarding the -- those that took the statements but -- so I

11     just want to be a little cautious with my response on that because I am

12     not sure.

13        Q.   That's fair enough.  Now, if we look at these statements and we

14     now have an example on the screen although it is not being broadcast, I'd

15     like to see what you do know about how they were taken.

16             First of all, did you or anyone else in the Office of the

17     Prosecutor of this Tribunal perform any research or investigation to

18     ascertain the precise procedure employed by those taking these statements

19     given to the agency for investigation and documentation, the AID?

20        A.   No.  My knowledge of the process is what was stated in the

21     testimony of Pasaga Mesic and several of the other investigators such as

22     Dean Manning who took statements in the year 2000 as to the process.  It

23     is basically explained in his testimony and you'll see in some of these

24     statements of what the process was, but beyond that, I don't know.

25        Q.   Fair enough, madam.


Page 12219

 1             Now, if we look at this document that we have on the screen, it's

 2     dated the 25th of January, 1996, and it records that this particular

 3     witness was shown a collection of -- or an album, I should say, of 29

 4     photographs that were part of the identification process.  Now, you've

 5     mentioned the testimony of Mr. Pasaga Mesic.  He mentions 30 photographs.

 6     I haven't done the statistics but if you go through all of these AID

 7     statements I think you will find that whereas a large number of them

 8     refer to 29 photographs being shown, others refer to a collection of 30

 9     photographs being shown.  Do you know what is the reason for this

10     apparent discrepancy in the number of photographs which comprise the

11     album which was shown to these people by the AID officials in Tuzla for

12     purposes of identification?

13        A.   No, I don't know -- I don't know the reason for the difference of

14     one photograph.  I might want to take a look at the exact dates of the

15     interviews to see if 29 corresponds with one date versus 30 with another

16     date, if perhaps there was an additional identification made or -- excuse

17     me, an additional photograph that was contributed to the album.  I don't

18     know.

19        Q.   If we can assist you, and this also should not be broadcast, but

20     exhibit P1520 is -- when it comes up, I think we'll see it as dated in

21     June of 1996 and references -- once the English comes up, I think you'll

22     see it references a 30-photograph album being used.  Does that allow you

23     to refresh your recollection or do you stand by the previous answer as

24     being complete?

25        A.   No, I think it corroborates what I just said, that you have a


Page 12220

 1     later date of June 20th, 1996, where there's now 30 photographs, whereas

 2     in January 1996, there was only 29.  So it is only an assumption on my

 3     part.  I don't know that there was an additional photograph that was

 4     contributed -- added to the album and therefore for these later

 5     interviews.

 6        Q.   Now, you say it's an assumption on your part.  Do you have

 7     knowledge of any investigation or confirmation efforts undertaken by the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor to ensure that the set of photographs that was

 9     shown to the individuals giving the AID statements is the same one that

10     is referred to in the Pasaga Mesic testimony?

11        A.   I myself have looked at the -- at photographs and they're in this

12     book as the photographs that he used when he was interviewing people for

13     the identifications so those photographs are in here.  What I don't --

14     what I once again don't know is off the top of my head without perhaps a

15     little more investigation or looking more closely at the photographs what

16     is the one that was added later for the June 20th, 1996 interview.

17        Q.   Fair enough.  And just to be clear, I understood your testimony

18     to be that Mr. Pasaga Mesic was relying upon these AID statements in

19     terms of giving his Rule 61 testimony in 1996.  Am I correct in that or

20     was he relying upon other things as well according to your information

21     and investigation?

22        A.   I can certainly tell from his testimony that he's relying upon

23     these statements because they corroborate what is said in the statements.

24     Beyond that, I don't know what else he relied upon.  I'm assuming that he

25     had other information than just these statements but I don't -- that


Page 12221

 1     wouldn't be fair for me to speculate about really.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So you do not know whether in fact he individually

 3     interviewed people apart from these statements which were taken by other

 4     officials?

 5        A.   Yeah, I don't know how it was -- I don't know which ones he would

 6     have done, others would have done.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, if we looked at the identification book, which

 8     has now received the exhibit number P1532, I believe, and that we can

 9     have up on the screen.  I think the -- we have two requests for

10     assistance, one dated 9 March, 2002, and the other 19 September 2002, and

11     they're at pages 74 and 80 respectively of the photo -- of the Bosnian

12     Muslim photo identification book.  Now these are the responses from the

13     BiH authorities to the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal as to

14     requests for assistance; however, we do not have the actual text of the

15     OTP requests themselves so as to know what the documents are in answer

16     to.  Do you know if the requests were in writing or orally submitted?

17        A.   The protocol is that it's in writing.

18        Q.   Thank you for that information.  I was aware of that.  That's why

19     I'm asking was it sent in writing or was it transmitted orally?

20        A.   My recollection -- well, let's put it this way:  I don't recall

21     seeing the written request, the original request.  The fact that they

22     refer to numbers and it's the practice of the office to put things in

23     writing and the fact that it came back in writing, my assumption is that

24     it was done in writing, but I have not seen the original request.

25        Q.   Do you at least have information as to when these original


Page 12222

 1     requests would have been made, perhaps the year that the requests would

 2     have been sent to the BiH authorities?

 3        A.   Well, in the first one, you'll see -- and this is the one that's

 4     for the year 2000, and it has a date to The Hague of March 9th, 2000 with

 5     a request number, which would be the RFA number dated 10 February 2000.

 6     So that suggests that there was a request made February 10th, 2000.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gallagher, I see that later in that same letter,

 8     we see apparently another request dated the 15th of February, 2000.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be your assumption that there have been two

11     requests there dated on the 10th and the 15th of February?

12             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Now, the reason I ask is that the rule 61 of Pasaga Mesic that

16     we've referred to and that's included as part of this identification book

17     at annex 3, I believe, starting in e-court at page 37 of the same, and

18     dated in 1996, in that transcript - and I believe at pages 39 and 40 in

19     e-court of this book, at lines 30 and onwards on page 39 - the testimony

20     requests that the deponent, Mr. Pasaga Mesic, does not know where the

21     photographs came from but does testify that the investigative team of the

22     Tribunal asked for efforts to identify the persons in the photographs.

23     So the question that I have for you is if the photographs used in the AID

24     statements were part of the same or prior request for assistance issued

25     by the Office of the Prosecutor, if you know?


Page 12223

 1        A.   Well, I believe that the photographs, these 29, 30 photographs

 2     have been the same throughout and the fact that the -- many of these

 3     names mentioned certainly correspond with the photographs in those that

 4     were identified.  But otherwise -- so I'm assuming that yes, it's the

 5     same group.

 6        Q.   But do you know where they came from?  Did they come from the

 7     Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

 8        A.   Ah, okay, I understand your question now.  Yes, I believe they

 9     were photographs that were taken from that Jean-Rene Ruez had captured

10     from the Petrovic video and the other footage that's from July 12th in

11     Potocari.  Those photographs were then given to Pasaga Mesic and his team

12     in Tuzla, and those were the photographs that were shown to the

13     interviewees which then are encapsulated in this book.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, is it your testimony that Mr. Ruez captured the

15     Petrovic video in 1996?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Would there be any written documentation required under the

18     protocols of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal providing the photographs to

19     the BiH authorities such that we can confirm what photographs and other

20     information were provided to the BiH authorities that resulted in the AID

21     statements being taken?

22        A.   It's -- generally, yes, we would know which photographs had been

23     handed over.  Sometimes it does -- sometimes it might be too many

24     photographs that might not be documented in a request.  It might happen

25     more as it's written into the request and then the photographs are handed


Page 12224

 1     over personally on a separate occasion.  I actually did try to find what

 2     the original photographs, if there was some sort of album that had been

 3     copied, anything here.  As to what exactly what had been turned over, I

 4     wasn't able to find documentation of it.

 5        Q.   Would it have been standard operating procedure under the

 6     protocols in existence as you know them for such documentation to exist?

 7        A.   I would say usually but not always in that sometimes there may

 8     be -- there may be -- it may be too large, too many photographs that can

 9     be part of a -- or an official request that goes to other authorities,

10     and it may be documented as to what is being turned over or requested of.

11     So I don't want to say that that would be always the case, and perhaps

12     also in 1996 when procedures were being developed, they were not set in

13     place as such.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now I want to move to a different topic and it starts

15     with something you said yesterday.

16             You testified about the accuracy of Pasaga Mesic's Rule 61

17     testimony and to be specific and fair, at transcript page 12.191, line 17

18     and onward, you testified as follows.  And I'll try to read slow enough

19     so as not to cause grief for the translators and the court reporter:

20             "Q. And in terms of your examination as to the identity of the

21     individuals that are named in the book, did you find any discrepancies in

22     terms of the information you found in the evidence of Pasaga Mesic versus

23     the information you found in the statements of various individuals that

24     also identified the same person?

25             "A. For -- for the most part, no.  His testimony correlates with


Page 12225

 1     the statements that are listed in the indexes.  There were a couple of

 2     minor mistakes that were made, such as a -- in his testimony, perhaps a

 3     wrong age.  Or on one occasion there is one woman who is identified in

 4     the book and he had testified it was a male -- with male's name instead.

 5     But otherwise the information that he gave in his testimony is the same

 6     as the information that's in the statements."

 7             Now, the reason I have highlighted that is I'd like to turn to

 8     the book and -- so again, it's page 74 in e-court of the book, and it is

 9     the first response of the BiH authorities to the request for information

10     to the ICTY.  And if we wait for that --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is the page in hard copy?

12             MR. IVETIC:  74 in e-court.  It has the ERN number ending in 076.

13        Q.   At the bottom of the page, madam, there is a note that says:

14             "This communication corrected the testimony of Pasaga Mesic

15     regarding the missing status of Huseinovic, Ibro, and Mujcinovic Mustafa.

16     Their status was corrected from missing to living."

17             Does -- did this note come -- arise as a result of your

18     investigative updating of the book or is this something that predated

19     you?

20        A.   No, this is something from the year 2000.

21        Q.   And would you agree with me that these mistakes in the Mesic --

22     Pasaga Mesic Rule 61 testimony as to these two individuals is rather

23     significant?

24        A.   They -- they're significant in that they -- when I was referring

25     to his testimony, it was testimony that he knew of.  So I think at that


Page 12226

 1     time he believed Ibro Huseinovic and Mustafa Mujcinovic to have been the

 2     status that he gave them in the testimony.  So yes, it later it -- in the

 3     year 2000, it was determined that those were -- one of them was an

 4     incorrect identification and the other one the person is alive and not

 5     missing.  So those were -- that was incorrect information at the time

 6     that Pasaga Mesic reflected in his testimony.

 7        Q.   [Overlapping speakers].

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you one thing.  The fact that one of

 9     these persons was living, was that known at the time he gave his

10     evidence?

11             THE WITNESS:  No, it's in the year 2000 that --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That he was found.

13             THE WITNESS:  That he was found alive.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, is a qualification that that person

15     was missing, is that wrong or is that right?  Because the person was

16     missing and later found to be alive which doesn't make him any less

17     missing at the time when it was not yet known that he was alive.

18             THE WITNESS:  Right.  That's my recollection and that's what I

19     was just trying to explain, that I don't think that he was

20     misrepresenting the information that he knew at that time.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   I'd love to go through that with you step by step because I think

23     you're wrong.  But let's go through it to be fair.

24             If we turn to the next page in e-court of this document, and if

25     we look at the entry for Mr. Huseinovic, Ibro, and it says that he was in


Page 12227

 1     Potocari but he arrived on the first trucks to the free territory and he

 2     lives in a particular settlement, et cetera.

 3             Now, if we look at Exhibit P1528, an AID statement of Ibro

 4     Huseinovic, I think we'll see that in 1996, Mr. Huseinovic gave a

 5     statement to the AID which would have been available to Mr. Pasaga Mesic

 6     which indicated that he was alive.  Would you agree with me?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can call up P1528.

 8        Q.   And I think you'll see if you look at the statement that the

 9     description of him being in Potocari and leaving on a truck and arriving

10     in Kladanj correlates to the 2000 information that in fact he was alive,

11     so would you agree with me that with respect to this individual,

12     Pasaga Mesic ought to have had this information at the time that he gave

13     his Rule 61 testimony?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we're referring to

16     the individual that was mentioned at annex 6 in the book, number 6,

17     Ibro Huseinovic, this is an individual with a different father's name

18     that's on the screen now.  So unless we've changed topics, we're talking

19     about different people.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I do note that the father's name is different but

22     the description is exactly the same of how he got out of the -- out of

23     Potocari.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we ask the witness, then.  Is that a typical

25     description for one of these persons or was that something that has


Page 12228

 1     happened to more persons; that is, arriving on a truck to the free

 2     territory?

 3             And in the statement, Mr. Ivetic, perhaps you could help me

 4     because you pointed at --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, it's the part that's underlined, the fourth

 6     line from the bottom:

 7             "I threw myself onto some things inside the truck while the other

 8     woman in the truck hid me and protected me with their bodies," et cetera.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now that is him being on a truck.  Do we find

10     the same details elsewhere?  Because you said it is a similar

11     description.  Is it the similarity exclusively found in being in a truck

12     travelling to Bosnian-held territory or is there more similarity.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Being in Potocari having that name?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Potocari, truck, and having this name.  That's

15     where we find the similarity, you say.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Correct, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So then we'll have to consider whether perhaps it's

18     a mistake and it's the same person but that the name of the father is not

19     recorded accurately or whether it is a different person who may have

20     found himself in a similar situation being Potocari, on a truck, being

21     transported to Bosnian-held territory.  Is that the issue?  Have I

22     described the issue?

23             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I was wondering whether the

24     witness knew anything about that.  If she does, enlighten us; if not,

25     then I can move on.


Page 12229

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But we have now, I think, clearly identified

 2     what the issue is.  Can you shed any light on it?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Sure.  There are two Ibro Huseinovics that have

 4     different fathers, different dates of birth, and even spelling, and in

 5     fact they're both survivors.  And one is a very statement of having

 6     left -- been one of the early ones to have left Potocari on one of the

 7     first trucks on the 12th.  And therefore in the context of what had

 8     happened, some of the men were able to leave early and were able to get

 9     to the free territory.  The other person describes sneaking onto a truck

10     and being able to get out that way.

11             But there are two separate Ibro Huseinovics, son of Aljo and son

12     of Ahmo with a -- different dates of birth, one of about 51 years old and

13     the other one would have been about 62 years old.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And the fact that they survived, was that for both

15     known at the time when the testimony was given.

16             THE WITNESS:  One of them, the Ibro Huseinovic, son of Aljo, the

17     one that you see here obviously was a statement that came in by the Tuzla

18     AID in 1996.  And the other one, the son of Ahmo, that was taken in the

19     year 2000.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Do you know with respect to which of these Ibro Huseinovics a

24     Mr. Hakija Huseinovic who gave a statement, which has an ERN number of

25     0085-8739, would have been related to?


Page 12230

 1        A.   Hmm.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at it?  Because the number

 3     is --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  It's not in e-court, Your Honours.  I wasn't going

 5     to present it for the truth of matter asserted.  It's something I found

 6     this morning when I was double-checking in EDS, and it is a statement

 7     of -- also given to AID in 1996 of a similar format, it's not one of the

 8     ones that was on the list for the Prosecution, and also identifies that

 9     Ibro Huseinovic was alive in 1996.

10             Now, I don't know which one.  That's why I'm asking the witness

11     if she knows and she says she reviewed all these statements.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't know whether she knows them by number

13     by heart.  That's -- is there any way that you could if you found them

14     this morning that you either make a copy or something like that because

15     the Chamber, of course, must have an opportunity to verify --

16             MR. IVETIC:  I can at the break have a copy printed and we can

17     find out because I honestly don't know --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

19             MR. IVETIC:  -- looking at it --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of course it's --

21             MR. IVETIC:  -- then I know it's which -- which Ibro Huseinovic

22     it would have been.  [Overlapping speakers] --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness is able to answer the question

24     already, nevertheless I think the Chamber would like to have a look at

25     the document.


Page 12231

 1             THE WITNESS:  Let me just check the index in the back and that

 2     might give us some more information.

 3             It actually is -- it's not listed in the back, but I -- I would

 4     want to confirm this, but I do have a recollection of Hakija Huseinovic

 5     identifying Ibro Huseinovic and that would have been from 1996.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And which Ibro Huseinovic would that statement be

 7     about?  If you don't know, that's ...

 8             THE WITNESS:  I would want to confirm it but I think that you

 9     might be correct, but before I go any further, if I can take a look at

10     the Hakija Huseinovic's statement just to make sure.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I would be more than happy to find that and bring it

12     in after the break.  If we can move on though.

13        Q.   In terms of the selection of the term --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I apologise.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I do actually have a hard copy.

17     We managed to print it out.  So if Mr. Ivetic wants to put it to the

18     witness or if the Chamber wants to see it we can provide that immediately

19     rather than after the break --

20             MR. IVETIC:  That'd be great.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  -- or --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the hard copy -- could the usher

23     assist in giving the hard copy to -- first of all to Mr. -- perhaps we

24     could use our --

25             MR. IVETIC:  The ELMO.


Page 12232

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The ELMO.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  The last time we tried it didn't go quite as

 3     planned.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, if you look at the document first, if

 5     you -- then at the same time if the usher could try to get the ELMO.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Going.  But yeah, that's hard.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Surviving from his --

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, if we could just go into private

 9     session for one brief moment, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We go into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12233

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 6

 7

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10

11 Pages 12233-12234 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 12235

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpretation, thank

19     you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

21             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise to the interpreters and I will try my

22     best not to speak quickly.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Now, if we look at again the identification book which is P1532,


Page 12236

 1     and if we return to page 76 of the same, it should be the second page of

 2     the 2000 response to request for assistance by the BiH authorities to the

 3     OTP of this Tribunal.  And here now we have the information under number

 4     20 for the second individual that is a correction from the Pasaga Mesic

 5     testimony, Mujcinovic, Mustafa, and we see that this person was not even

 6     in Potocari but was the result of a falsely identified photograph.  Now

 7     -- now that is something that you did mention earlier.

 8             I want to ask you since here it says that the authorities of BiH

 9     will try to identify the person in the photograph by operative work, it

10     has been some time since this 2000 request for assistance.  Do you know

11     whether they have accomplished any kind of identification so as to

12     supplement the information that we have in this book?

13        A.   Not that I'm aware of.  I haven't seen any information that

14     suggests they discovered or passed on to the OTP the identification of

15     that person.

16        Q.   And would you agree with me that it seems or appears that it took

17     them four years to find out that the initial identification made of

18     Mr. Mujcinovic was in fact falsely made?

19        A.   Certainly that's at the time that the OTP learns of the -- learns

20     of the misidentification.

21        Q.   Now again as to the use of the term survivor for this individual.

22     Since he never was in Potocari, would you agree that it's not entirely an

23     accurate description of his status as being a survivor?

24        A.   I don't recall that he was mentioned as a survivor.

25        Q.   I apologise.  I thought he was.  Then we can move on.


Page 12237

 1             If we look at -- if we talk about this book, P1752, can you

 2     please tell us to what extent, if at all, the demographic unit of the

 3     Office of the Prosecution was involved in its creation or updating?

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, you said P1752.  We haven't reached

 5     that number yet.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise, Your Honours, that would be P1532.  I

 7     can't read my own handwriting.

 8        Q.   In relation to this book that we have in front of us, the

 9     photo -- the identification book that you worked on, can you tell us what

10     if any role the demographics unit of the Office of the Prosecutor had in

11     the creation of the same?

12        A.   I'm not aware that they had any direct creation of this book, and

13     in an indirect way some of the work on the Srebrenica missing persons

14     list that they have helped create from information from ICRC and ICMP,

15     that that is one more list that I relied upon when I was checking on the

16     status of the missing men.  But otherwise, I am not aware that they

17     participated in the creation of this.

18        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, I'd like to ask you if you have knowledge or

19     at least during the time period when you were involved in working on this

20     book, whether anyone else within the Office of the Prosecutor had a main

21     role in the production of this book or was it you?

22        A.   No, the book has remained basically essentially as it was

23     originally created for the Blagojevic trial, so I think at that time it

24     was investigators and the entire members of the team that usually were a

25     part of creating these books.  Since I assisted with updating it, it has


Page 12238

 1     been primarily my work in at least updating the status of the people, and

 2     I've relied upon other -- the work of others such as the work the

 3     demographics unit did in terms of their missing persons list, ICMP and my

 4     colleague, Dusan Janc as well with his report, but otherwise -- and the

 5     only other person would have been our technician who helps create these

 6     books and videos and other photo books here with the OTP, Zoran Lesic.

 7        Q.   Now I know that this was before your time, so if you can't answer

 8     I'll understand, but you did mention that the -- it was your

 9     understanding that the entire team worked on this back in the time that

10     it was first created by the Blagojevic trial.  Would that have included,

11     do you know, trial counsel that would have been prosecuting that case?

12        A.   I don't know for sure.  My assumption is these books generally

13     are created there -- with investigators and with the prosecutors in

14     determining what will go in it, what will stay out, the look of it, how

15     it's presented in court.  So this has been the practice of all the books

16     that I've worked on over the years is that there is a dialogue with the

17     prosecutors and they have input.  I don't want to say -- I don't know

18     specifically about when this was created for Blagojevic, who might

19     have -- what that involvement would have been.

20        Q.   That's fair enough.  Now I'd like to move to a different topic

21     again.

22             In this book, P1532, at page 13 of the same in e-court, we

23     have -- and in the hard copies it's the page that's marked M7 at the

24     bottom right to assist those of us with the hard copy.  Now we do have it

25     on the screen.


Page 12239

 1             Here, we have an individual identified Ramo Osmanovic and it

 2     lists the information of how he was identified.  I believe that we had

 3     some testimony here a few weeks ago that this individual was a soldier,

 4     specifically a member of Ibro's Brigade in the Srebrenica armed enclave.

 5     Did your investigation discover or verify this same fact?

 6        A.   True, I have read Saliha Osmanovic's statement from 2000 and I

 7     did see a portion of her testimony.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And in relation to your investigative work, what can you

 9     tell us about this Ibro's Brigade, what was the formal designation of

10     this structure, of this formation?

11        A.   Of Ibro's Brigade?

12        Q.   Yeah, if you know.  If your investigation revealed anything.

13        A.   No, I know -- I recall, I should say.  I know virtually nothing

14     about it.  I recall more of his, in particular, Ramo's work as doing

15     construction often times in Serbia and around the country and that was

16     primarily his employment before and even up until the time that they fled

17     the area.  I don't recall actually anything about -- off the top of my

18     head about Ibro's Brigade.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in this photograph, this individual does not

20     seem to be wearing anything that could be readily identifiable as a

21     military outfit.  Did your investigation reveal if the armed forces of

22     the Bosnian Muslim side in Srebrenica from operating in uniform or any

23     other type of clothing during this time period?

24        A.   I know the column that was moving through the woods that had fled

25     the Srebrenica area.  There are members of the column that were a part of


Page 12240

 1     the ABiH army that were wearing camouflage and had weapons and that more

 2     than two-thirds of the column were civilians, civilian clothes without

 3     any weapons.  And yes, I've not had any indication that he was carrying a

 4     weapon or any -- in any sort of military garb as many of the others were

 5     not either.

 6        Q.   Now I picked him because we had this independent confirmation of

 7     his status.  As to the other 30, I guess, individuals that have been

 8     identified for purposes of this book, in relation to those individuals

 9     has your office undertaken any investigation to determine if these men

10     had been members of the BiH armed forces in Srebrenica at any time prior

11     or subsequent to the filming of these photographs?

12        A.   Not that I'm aware of.  Not for the purposes of this book.

13        Q.   And for the vast, I believe, majority of the persons that are

14     identified for purposes of this book, we do not have an independent

15     statement or verification of how they met their fate and where they met

16     their fate; is that correct?

17        A.   Well, no, most of them we know -- we do have verification as

18     to -- well, we have verification as to where their remains are found and

19     that gives an indication of where they may have met their fate.  And we

20     do have exhumation reports, autopsy reports that -- on a number of them

21     that also verifies how they met their fate.  We do have some statements

22     where in fact I -- there's one in particular I remember where there is

23     one man who is at an execution site, goes to the execution site with one

24     of the men here that originally was listed as missing, and he himself,

25     the one giving the statement survived the execution.  And in his


Page 12241

 1     statement, I recall that he says he assumes the other person was killed

 2     in the execution.

 3        Q.   If I can perhaps assist you, I think it's P1519 that you're

 4     referring to.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  If we cannot broadcast that but if we can bring it

 6     up that might assist the witness.

 7        Q.   Does this appear to be the one that you were talking about,

 8     madam?

 9        A.   Yes, this is the one that I was thinking of.

10        Q.   And apart from this one that both you and I were able to locate,

11     do you have knowledge of any other statements as to any of the other

12     individuals that are identified as part of this book?

13        A.   No.  In terms of witnessing or being a part -- being there at the

14     execution, this is -- I think this is the only one that I recall.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move to one other topic.

16             First of all, as part of your -- and we can remove this from the

17     monitor, I guess, I don't need it anymore.

18             From your investigative work, have you gained knowledge about an

19     incident where a group of detained Bosnian Muslim men tried to overpower

20     the police guards that were guarding them, even taking the rifle of one

21     guard and killing him and where another guard was injured trying to get

22     that rifle back.  Are you aware of such an instance?

23        A.   I am aware of an instance at the Kravica warehouse where one

24     Muslim man had grabbed the gun of -- it was -- had grabbed the gun and

25     Rade Cuturic had wrestled the gun away, and shortly after that the men on


Page 12242

 1     that side of the warehouse that were kept there were killed.

 2        Q.   And was it part of your investigation that prior to the incident

 3     where the individual tried to overpower and take the gun from this

 4     person, that no one had been shot at this location?

 5        A.   There was not a mass execution prior to this execution, not that

 6     I'm aware of, no.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, I believe you identified the Kravica warehouse.

 8     Would that have been the agricultural warehouse?

 9        A.   Correct, that's what it was used for.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Gallagher, could I ask one clarifying question.

11     Mr. Ivetic asked you that prior to that incident where he grabbed the

12     weapon, whether no one had been shot at this location.  Your answer was:

13             "There was not a mass execution prior to this execution," not

14     that you're aware of.

15             You're talking about a mass execution.  Mr. Ivetic is asking

16     about any killing.  Do you have any recollection that perhaps an

17     individual person held there may have been killed?  Because you

18     specifically referred to mass executions.

19             THE WITNESS:  No, in terms of what I know specifically about the

20     warehouse, I'm not aware of other executions before that one specifically

21     at the warehouse.  I know -- I've read a lot of statements of people in

22     the area, so I have heard statements of executions happening nearby, in a

23     field nearby, adjacent, so that's why I qualified it a little bit.  But

24     in terms of inside the warehouse, I'm not aware of anyone being killed in

25     the warehouse until the executions started.


Page 12243

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is the nearest by, would that be within 50

 2     metres from the warehouse or would that be somewhere in the area?

 3             THE WITNESS:  What I recall is it would have been in the field

 4     near the warehouse.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, near?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Whether it's 50 metres, 100 metres, I'm not sure,

 7     but I don't mean -- I don't mean the village down the road.  I mean in

 8     the nearby vicinity as well as a school in Kravica that's a little

 9     further away.  I would not categorise that as being near the warehouse

10     but the fields surrounding the warehouse.

11             I don't know -- I'm sorry, I don't know the exact location so I

12     don't want to say if it's 100 metres or 50 metres or 150 metres.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  In the direct vicinity of the warehouse.

14             THE WITNESS:  In the general, yes.  I would say in the nearby

15     vicinity of the warehouse.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Now, I want to return just for a moment to your work in updating

20     this book and the information contained in it.  You indicated that you

21     did also use the lists or referred to the lists that the demographics

22     unit would have had access to.  Did you at any time seek assistance of

23     anyone from the demographics unit to learn how to use or how to

24     understand those lists or that information that they had?  I understand

25     it's a database that's at issue.  Are we talking about the same thing or?


Page 12244

 1        A.   I wouldn't have used it myself.  It's a number of different --

 2     basically a number of different databases that they used to pull together

 3     their lists.  So I have used the list that -- their updates as to what

 4     they have put out regarding the Srebrenica missing persons, so it's their

 5     compilation list.  So -- in that respect, it's -- I've used the one final

 6     list that they created.

 7        Q.   So you used their finished product?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Perfect.  That answers my question.

10             Thank you for your time.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I have no further questions for this witness,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

14             Have the questions in cross-examination triggered any need to

15     further examine the witness, Mr. Vanderpuye?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I just have a couple of questions,

17     Mr. President.  If we can take the break now, it would be fine.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time do you think you would need for those

19     questions?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm guessing 5 or 10 minutes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm also looking at the Defence, whether they would

22     prefer -- because otherwise we would have to -- if we could finish now.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber would have a preference to continue for

25     5 or 10 minutes.


Page 12245

 1             MR. IVETIC:  My client is -- would permit to continue.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 5        Q.   Ms. Gallagher, you were asked just now a couple of questions

 6     about the killings that occurred at the Kravica warehouse on 13 July and

 7     in particular asked about the incident concerning an individual who

 8     burned his hands in relation to those events.  I just want to clarify

 9     something with you because I think your answer to Mr. Ivetic's question

10     wasn't clear, at least to me, and that related to whether or not there

11     had been any executions prior to the individual whose hands were burnt in

12     relation to the events there.

13             In terms of the investigation that you've been involved in and

14     your colleagues have been involved in, is there any concrete information

15     as to whether or not the burned hands incident, I'll call it, occurred

16     immediately prior to the executions or during the course of the

17     executions that happened on the 13th?  Do you have any concrete

18     information either way which?

19        A.   No.  It's -- there's many, many, many statements out there

20     regarding that the incident of the burned hands happened early on.  There

21     are some that say it precipitated -- some that, yes, the executions had

22     started, the shooting had started already.  It's -- and when I mean -- I

23     think it was just early on in the course of the execution or at the

24     beginning.  What I don't mean to say is it's at the end.  But it's clear

25     it happened sometime early on but I don't know if it was immediately --


Page 12246

 1     if it was right before or right at the beginning of when it started.

 2     There's many different statements.

 3        Q.   Okay.  You were also asked some questions --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I apologise to the Chamber, I don't have the

 5     exact page reference.

 6        Q.   But you will recall being asked some questions about

 7     Ramo Osmanovic.  In particular, his clothing, his attire in relation to

 8     whether or not he was a member of the Bosnian Muslim army, the ABiH army.

 9     And you were asked some questions about their attire and whether or not

10     the individuals in the book were members of the army.

11             In relation to that, I just want to ask you a couple of

12     questions.  As concerns the 31 individuals that are listed in the index

13     in the book, in the circumstances or rather the photographs that are

14     depicted in the book are any of those individuals at liberty?

15        A.   Meaning that they are free and alive right now?

16        Q.   No.  Meaning whether or not they are free and alive -- free to go

17     in the photographs that are depicted in the book?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I think that calls for a conclusion to be reached,

19     Your Honours, perhaps even a legal one.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would rephrase your question, Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

22        Q.   What is your understanding of the circumstances, in which the

23     individuals depicted in the photograph, were, at the time that the

24     photographs were filmed, were taken?

25        A.   No, I think it's -- it's clear in watching the video and the


Page 12247

 1     footage yourself as well as reading the statements that none of these men

 2     were free to go, whether that was in Potocari when they were being

 3     separated out to go on the buses or that was in Sandici meadow or when

 4     they were walking up towards Sandici meadow.

 5        Q.   Let me just ask this one or two last questions.  The last

 6     question or topic is the number -- the 31 individuals that are identified

 7     in the index of the identification book, rather, is the book limited to

 8     the identification of those 31 individuals or does it concern other

 9     individuals?  And the reason why I ask this is because Mr. Ivetic had

10     asked you about an individual named Mujcinovic who is mentioned in

11     annex 6, I believe it was, item number 20 of this annex as a person who

12     he thought had been indicated as a survivor.

13             As you can see from the index, which is page 5, I think, in

14     e-court, of the book, nobody by the name of Mujcinovic is mentioned among

15     the 31, so I was wondering whether or not the book is meant to include

16     these other individuals or is limited only to the 31 here?

17        A.   Right.  The 31 individuals that are highlighted in the front part

18     of the book are the ones that we know the status of, one way or the

19     other.  There are others as you see that are mentioned.  We don't know

20     the status -- even those that are mentioned as missing, we don't know the

21     status, and if that's because they're -- we don't know.  Their remains

22     have not been found.  If there's nobody in the family alive to ask about

23     locations or their -- anything more about them.  So the 31 that are

24     highlighted are the ones that we have more concrete identifications of.

25        Q.   In respect of annexes 6 and 7, which refer to communications with


Page 12248

 1     the Bosnian authorities, one in annex 6 which concerns certain

 2     corrections and annex 7 which also contains additional information

 3     concerning the status of certain individuals, have those corrections or

 4     considerations been taken into account in this particular iteration of

 5     the book?

 6        A.   Correct.  That's why they are not part of the 31 and it's been

 7     noted when there has been a correction made, an update made.  So those

 8     are reflected, obviously, in these annexes, in this correspondence, and

 9     they are not a part of the main book.

10        Q.   To your knowledge, as the book stands now, is it accurate and

11     reliable?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have nothing

14     further.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, have the questions in re-examination

18     triggered any need for further cross-examination?

19             MR. IVETIC:  They have not, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Ms. Gallagher, this concludes your testimony.

21     I have to look at the Prosecution -- it really concludes the testimony of

22     Ms. Gallagher.  Then, Ms. Gallagher, I would like to thank you for coming

23     this short way to this courtroom several times and we thank you for

24     having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties,

25     and by the Bench and you are therefore excused which means that you now


Page 12249

 1     can freely communicate again with whom ever you wish to communicate.

 2             You may follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break of 20 minutes and we'll resume at

 6     quarter past 12.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness the Prosecution will call is

10     Witness RM313 if I am well informed.

11             MS. HASAN:  That's correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we also agreed I think and the Chamber approved

13     a different procedure, Ms. Hasan, the procedure being that you would read

14     the summary of the witness's testimony before he enters the courtroom.

15             MS. HASAN:  Yes, thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you have an opportunity to do so now.

17             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, and good afternoon to everyone.  Good

18     afternoon, Your Honours.

19             The witness lived in Srebrenica as a young boy.  One day, when he

20     remembers being about 7 years old, persons that the witness refers to as

21     Chetniks wearing multi-coloured uniforms forced him and his father onto a

22     green truck with other people.  They were blindfolded and taken to a

23     grassy area where they were shot.  The witness was then taken to Zvornik

24     hospital where he was treated for his wounds.

25             The witness's evidence relates to the Prosecution's tendered


Page 12250

 1     Rule 92 bis evidence of RM247, a driver in the Zvornik Brigade who in

 2     July of 1995 was present at the Orahovac execution site.  RM247 gives

 3     evidence that after the execution stopped, a Muslim boy of about 6 or 7

 4     years old emerged from the dead bodies.  A mustached Drina Corps

 5     lieutenant-colonel who was present at the execution site ordered that the

 6     boy be killed, and when no one complied, ordered that he be taken to

 7     Orahovac school.

 8             RM247 volunteered, and believing that the boy would be killed if

 9     taken to the school, took him instead to the hospital in Zvornik.

10             That concludes the summary, Mr. President, and the witness can be

11     called in at this time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we first move into closed session so that the

13     protective measures of face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym

14     will be effectively applied when the witness enters the courtroom.

15                           [Closed session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

 


Page 12251

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             I hereby put on the record that the witness has already made his

14     solemn declaration when we were still in closed session.

15             Ms. Hasan, you'll examine the witness.

16             Witness, you will first be examined by Ms. Hasan.  You will find

17     Ms. Hasan to your right and Ms. Hasan is counsel for the Prosecution.

18     There she is.

19                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

20        Q.   Hello, Witness.  Thank you for coming in here today and for being

21     with us.  Are you sitting comfortably?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   The headphones are okay on, you can hear everything well?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   If they slip, you just have to put them a little bit -- the band


Page 12252

 1     a little bit higher on your head.

 2        A.   No, no, everything is all right.

 3        Q.   Great.  It's already been explained to you that no one sees you

 4     and your face is not seen and your name is not revealed, and we've

 5     discussed this earlier as well.  You understand that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And everyone in this courtroom understands that this can

 8     be very difficult for you, so we're just going to take our time and you

 9     just let us know if you need a break.  Okay?

10             MS. HASAN:  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MS. HASAN:  Could we call up 65 ter 28937.

13        Q.   And just as that comes up, Witness, if there's any questions that

14     I ask you or anyone else asks you that you don't understand, just tell us

15     and we will try to make it a bit more clear for you.

16             MS. HASAN:  And if this document cannot be broadcast, please.

17        Q.   Okay, Witness, if you just take a look at the screen that's in

18     front of you, without saying anything out loud about what you see, can

19     you tell us if that is your name displayed on that screen?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I'd offer 65 ter 28937 into evidence

22     under seal.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 28937 receives number?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  P1533, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P1533 is admitted under seal.


Page 12253

 1             MS. HASAN:  Just for a few brief moments can we go into private

 2     session, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12254

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             MS. HASAN:  May we have 65 ter 533 [sic] displayed but not

11     broadcast for the public.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you repeat the correct number?

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

 


Page 12255

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10        Q.   Do you remember approximately how old you were at that time?

11        A.   Seven.

12        Q.   And when the truck arrived at your -- sorry, when the truck

13     arrived, where were you?

14        A.   I'm sorry, could you please repeat the question?  I didn't

15     understand it completely.

16        Q.   Where were you when the truck came?

17        A.   At home.

18        Q.   And who was with you at home?  Were you alone or was someone else

19     there?

20        A.   My father was with me.

21        Q.   And can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing?

22        A.   My father and I were in the house.  My father was changing a

23     bulb.  I went to the window and I saw a man with an axe.  He came to me

24     and said here are the Chetniks coming towards us and I repeated that to

25     my father.  My father said hide yourself under the bed and that's what I


Page 12256

 1     did.  Later on, the Chetniks came in and found us.

 2        Q.   Do you remember, Witness, whether it was light or dark outside

 3     when you were looking out the window?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what was it?  Was it night-time?  Was it daytime?

 6        A.   It was daytime.  It was still light.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, when these men that you referred to as the Chetniks,

 8     when they arrived and they found you in the house, what did they do?

 9        A.   We went outside.  They ordered us to stand.  They blindfolded us

10     with white handkerchiefs, we boarded a green truck.  My handkerchief fell

11     off but another Chetnik put it back on and tied it very tightly.

12        Q.   Now, do you remember today how the Chetniks or what you refer to

13     as the Chetniks were dressed that day?

14        A.   I cannot remember exactly.

15        Q.   And when you went on this green truck, do you have any

16     recollection of where you were sitting?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Was your father with you on that truck?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you told us that your blindfold was slipping.  Did that

21     happen when you were outside or when you were on the truck?

22        A.   While I was on the truck.

23        Q.   And how did it come about that the Chetnik tightened your

24     blindfold, do you remember?

25        A.   Yes, I could.


Page 12257

 1        Q.   Can you please tell us?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.  We were on the truck.  My father wanted to get up

 3     and put a kerchief on me.  The Chetnik didn't allow him to do that.  He

 4     went back to his seat and this Chetnik then approached me and tightened

 5     it very tight.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, you went on a journey on this truck; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And did the truck at some point -- the truck that you were on,

 9     did it at some point come to a stop?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what happened after it came to a stop?

12        A.   We got off.  They removed the white blindfolds.  They ordered us

13     to lie down on our stomachs and they started shooting at us.

14        Q.   Do you remember, Witness, what you saw when they removed your

15     blindfold?  How did the place look like?

16        A.   It was dark.

17        Q.   Were you taken somewhere -- was it inside?  Was it outside?  Were

18     there trees?  Were there no trees?  Do you remember any of that?

19        A.   We got off, got out, and when they took off the blindfolds, I saw

20     it was dark so nothing could be seen any longer.

21        Q.   Now, as you were lying -- when they ordered you to lie down, as

22     you were lying down, do you remember anything specifically happening at

23     that point in time?  Maybe I can --

24        A.   I'm sorry.  Excuse me.

25        Q.   It's okay.  Do you remember telling us about a man who was --


Page 12258

 1     that you saw running away and being shot.  Do you remember anything about

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what happened?

 5        A.   He got up and started running away.  A Chetnik said, "Stop or

 6     I'll shoot."  But he continued running.  The Chetnik killed him.  He fell

 7     down on to the ground.

 8        Q.   And was it after that incident that the shooting began?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, do you remember feeling that you were injured during the

11     shooting?  Do you recall any of your sensations?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Would you like to share those with us?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Go ahead.

16        A.   Do you want me to show you or how do I do it?  Shall I show you?

17     Show you where I was wounded?  Is that what you want me to do?

18        Q.   Yes, you can tell us where you were wounded and then you can show

19     us.

20        A.   Oh, all right.  Do I need to stand up?

21        Q.   You can stand up, Witness.

22        A.   Very well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  We have to be very careful with the

24     face distortion.  So therefore, I suggest that we -- either you just tell

25     us or otherwise we would have to go into closed session.  If you just


Page 12259

 1     tell us that is good as well.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd rather show you.  I can't

 3     describe it.  It's much easier for me to demonstrate this to you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now most likely for us to see it you will have

 5     to move a bit, so we go into closed session for a second.  So if you have

 6     just some patience until the curtains are down.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8                           [Closed session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12260

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             Witness, Ms. Hasan certainly will have more questions for you.

 7     Listen carefully to her.

 8             MS. HASAN:

 9        Q.   Witness, the injuries you just showed us, were those gunshot

10     wounds?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you still have scars at those locations?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And I understand that one scar is worse than the other.  Can

15     you -- are you able to describe the scar for us?

16        A.   Well, I'll do my best, if I can.

17        Q.   You can go ahead if you want to describe it but just -- if you

18     can just stay seated.  If you can't describe it very well, that's okay.

19        A.   It is a little bit difficult.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, is this scar on your knee worse

21     than the scar on your arm?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the one on the leg is the

23     worse.  If you touch it, you can feel a sort of hole in the flesh.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what size is that approximately.  I'll try

25     to point it out with my fingers, is it like this size or is it larger?


Page 12261

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit smaller.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  A bit smaller.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  A distance of approximately one and a half

 5     centimetres with my fingers.

 6             I don't know whether we need further details on this, Ms. Hasan.

 7     If not, please proceed with any other question you may have.

 8             MS. HASAN:

 9        Q.   Okay.  And just to -- just one point of clarification.  You also

10     have a scar on your -- above your right elbow; that's correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, let's go back to when you were lying down.  Can you tell us

13     where your father was at this point in time?

14        A.   I cannot tell you exactly.  I don't know where he was.  Anyway,

15     he wasn't near me.  He was farther away.  We were not near each other.

16        Q.   Now, after the shooting had stopped, what happened?  What did you

17     do?

18        A.   A white jeep approached us with the markings of the Red Cross,

19     came up to the Chetniks, and asked them to let me go.  They let me go.  I

20     went up close and I got into the white jeep.  And that's where I started

21     to bleed.

22        Q.   Do you remember where you went in that jeep that you were in?

23     Where did you go?

24        A.   To the hospital.  To the hospital in Zvornik.

25        Q.   When you arrived, were you treated there for your injuries?


Page 12262

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you remember what happened?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us a little bit about that?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can.  I was lying down in the bath and I started to

 6     resist, shiver, I resisted and then I -- the doctors gave me something.

 7     They started to stitch my wounds.  Then I was lying down in bed.  There

 8     was a film and then it finished, and then there was some music and this

 9     music frightened me, so I went over there and asked them to turn it off.

10        Q.   Do you remember at all how long you stayed in the hospital?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Okay.  And after you were at the hospital, where did you go from

13     there, if you remember?

14        A.   I went somewhere.  I asked who was going to take me and nobody

15     wanted to take me in except my aunt and uncle.  They took me in and I'm

16     still living with them.

17        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you a question and it's a

18     difficult one.  So if you can't answer it, that's fine.  So what I'd like

19     to ask you is if you can share with us how these events that you

20     experienced have impacted your life today?

21        A.   It's a difficult question.  I cannot answer this question.  I'm

22     sorry but I cannot.

23        Q.   That's okay.  I'm just going to ask you a few more questions

24     about when you came here before and testified in another courtroom at

25     this Tribunal.  Okay?


Page 12263

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, all right.

 2        Q.   Do you remember coming here in 2007 and you came here again in

 3     2010.  Do you remember those trips?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And do you recall the first time you gave -- you came here in

 6     2007.  Do you recall that we went through the evidence that you gave at

 7     that time just a few days ago, we did that?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9        Q.   And were the questions and answers read to you in a language that

10     you understood?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was there anything that was read to you that you want to correct

13     today?  Was there anything that was wrong?

14        A.   I'm sorry, can you put these questions to me one by one.  Then it

15     will be easier for me to answer.  Can you do it the way you did earlier?

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's try it again.  When the questions and answers were

17     read to you in your language, do you remember whether any of the answers

18     you had given were not true?  Was everything that you had said, was it

19     true?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  I didn't understand this before.  It was

21     difficult.  This way I understand what you're asking me.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I would on that basis offer the

24     excerpt from the Popovic testimony into evidence under seal, it's

25     65 ter 28938.


Page 12264

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections?

 2             Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28938 receives number P1535,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1535 is admitted under seal.

 6             MS. HASAN:

 7        Q.   Witness, thank you very much for answering my questions, and it's

 8     an honour for you to be in our presence today.  And if you wouldn't mind

 9     if anyone else has questions for you right now, if you wouldn't mind

10     answering those.

11             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, that concludes my direct examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

13             I have a small question for you.  You said you didn't remember

14     exactly how long you --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, go ahead.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't remember how long exactly you stayed in

17     that hospital.  Did you stay overnight?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you stay there one night or even more nights?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there for a few nights but I

21     don't know how many.  I don't remember that anymore.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

23             Now, Mr. Stojanovic who is seated -- well he's standing up now.

24     Mr. Stojanovic may have some questions for you as well.  Carefully listen

25     to them and Mr. Stojanovic.


Page 12265

 1             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt, I have just a

 2     couple of documents to offer from the bar and I'm more than happy to do

 3     it after the conclusion of this testimony if that's suitable.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We would prefer to continue at this moment and then

 5     deal with that after.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             You will find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  He's standing now.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day.

10        A.   Good day to you.

11        Q.   I'm going to put a few questions to you.  If you are tired or if

12     you cannot answer, please feel free to tell me, but we are not going to

13     take long.  I quite understand the language that you speak and the

14     language that I speak.  So what I wanted to ask you was this, can you

15     help me, can you tell me whether that place where you were loaded on to

16     the truck was in the town of Srebrenica itself?

17        A.   No, no.  It wasn't the town itself.  It was just a house there.

18     It was a village.  It wasn't the town at all.

19        Q.   And are you able to recall the name of the village where you were

20     when you were boarded on to the buses?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  We move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12266

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   Do you remember how many people there were in the truck that you


Page 12267

 1     got into?

 2        A.   There were many but I don't remember how many people there were.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you please switch off your

 4     microphone while the witness is answering.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   And are you able to tell me if you remember if it was an open or

 7     a closed truck that you were being driven in?

 8        A.   It was open.

 9        Q.   And do you remember how long they drove you in this truck?

10        A.   Not long.  It was a short ride.  We got there quickly.  It wasn't

11     a long drive.

12        Q.   Can you try to orient us how long that was when you say that it

13     wasn't long?

14        A.   No, I'm not able to do that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you recall whether you took an asphalt or a

16     macadam road?

17        A.   No, it wasn't an asphalt road.

18        Q.   When you were told to get off the truck, was it still day?

19        A.   No, no, it was dark.

20        Q.   And do you remember if you stopped off anywhere on the way, at a

21     school or at some other building?

22        A.   No.  No, we didn't stop anywhere.

23        Q.   And are you able to remember whether at any point in time you

24     noticed a railway track?

25        A.   No.


Page 12268

 1        Q.   And tell me, that white vehicle with Red Cross markings, did you

 2     see when that arrived at the place where you were being shot at?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And do you remember perhaps how many people there were in that

 5     vehicle with the Red Cross markings?

 6        A.   It's difficult for me to answer.  Could you please repeat so it's

 7     a bit clearer?  I didn't quite understand.

 8        Q.   All right.  I will try.  We will take it slowly.  Do you remember

 9     how many people there were in that white vehicle that had the Red Cross

10     sign on it?

11        A.   You mean how many of us there were in the white jeep?  Is that

12     it?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   It was just me and that doctor.  No one else.  I was sitting in

15     the back and he was in the front.  That's all.

16        Q.   The people who were shooting, do you remember them?  Were they

17     wearing uniforms or civilian clothes?

18        A.   I cannot remember them.  I cannot remember that now.  Before,

19     perhaps.

20        Q.   Do you know how many of those people there were who were

21     shooting?

22        A.   No.  No, I don't.

23        Q.   And this doctor who was with you in the white jeep, was he

24     speaking in a language that you understand?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, he was.


Page 12269

 1        Q.   You had a question from the Judges about how long -- about if you

 2     remember how long you stayed in the hospital and my colleague also asked

 3     you that.

 4        A.   I cannot remember.  It was a few days.  I was there for a while

 5     but I don't know how long.

 6        Q.   And how did those doctors and the medical personnel treat you?

 7        A.   Well.  It was fine.

 8        Q.   And do you remember if they allowed you to go out and to play

 9     with other kids?

10        A.   No, I don't remember that.

11        Q.   Are you able to tell us if you remember how you were taken or

12     driven to meet your family when you were taken from the hospital?

13        A.   I don't remember that.  I don't remember that.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like

15     us to look at a document, 65 ter 05332, this is a document under seal so

16     I would ask that it not be broadcast.  05332.

17        Q.   I am going to ask you to read it for yourself.  Don't read it out

18     loud.  But do you see that your name is written anywhere on the document?

19        A.   Yes, I see it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Please, again just read it to yourself where you can

21     see in the upper right-hand corner where it says which village you come

22     from.  Please don't read it out loud but just tell us whether you recall

23     even slightly the name of this village?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   Is that the place where you lived before you were brought?


Page 12270

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   And is that where you were staying at the point in time when you

 3     were boarded on to the truck and taken away?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at

 6     page 2 of this document and I repeat, this is a document under seal and

 7     it should not be broadcast outside of the courtroom.

 8        Q.   I would just like to read a passage to you and I want to ask you

 9     something if you can remember it.  In paragraph 2 here, it states that

10     while you were staying with us, you adapted gradually.  In the beginning

11     was pretty nervous, did not communicate that much with other children.

12     And then in time, he fit in and played with other children.

13             Do you remember what I have just put to you now, that you did

14     have the opportunity to play with other children?

15        A.   I don't remember that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

17             MS. HASAN:  This is quite confusing for him to confirm what's in

18     this report.  He's already said he doesn't recall the treatment, his

19     treatment during his stay in the hospital.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apart from it's not very relevant,

21     Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to finish quickly with

23     this document.  I will do my best to be as specific as possible.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Whenever you refer to the document, you should

25     adequately summarize if you want to put it to the witness and not use the


Page 12271

 1     language of the report itself which is official language.  You should

 2     paraphrase as accurate as possible.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.

 4        Q.   Are you able to remember what the weather was like, what the

 5     season of the year was when you were taken from the hospital to your

 6     family?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10     tender this document under seal in view of the contents of the document

11     and also the note on the bottom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

13             MS. HASAN:  No objections.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05332 receives number D304, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D304 is admitted into evidence under seal.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I would just

19     like to move into private session for the last few questions that I have.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 12272

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11 Page 12272 redacted. Private session.

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Page 12273

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 7             Witness RM313, this concludes your testimony in this courtroom

 8     and the Chamber but also the Prosecution and the Defence, we are all very

 9     glad that you came to answer all the questions we have although it may

10     not have been easy for you.

11             The more we appreciate that you came and we wish you a very safe

12     journey home again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If you wait for a second, then the curtains will be

15     down again and after that, you can move, you can follow the usher and

16     he'll escort you out of the courtroom.

17             We turn into closed session.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

 


Page 12274

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             Ms. Hasan.

 6             MS. HASAN:  I showed the witness a photograph in which he

 7     recognised himself in which is now P1534.  Now, this photograph has been

 8     extracted from an ICRC notice looking for a family that would claim him.

 9     This is -- we can call it up.  It's 65 ter 28009 and it should not be

10     broadcast.

11             Okay.  So this is the document here, that is the photograph that

12     I had shown him without any of the text, and we see his name recorded

13     there, the name of his father, as well as other information including

14     that he's presently at the Zvornik hospital.  I'd like to offer this

15     document from the bar table.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28009 receives P1536, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence under seal.

21             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That's all.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all.  Then I repeat now my question whether

23     the -- there is any Prosecution witness ready to follow after the break.

24             MS. HASAN:  Yes, the next Prosecution witness is ready.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first take a break and resume at a


Page 12275

 1     quarter to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.24 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President just while the witness is brought in,

 6     there was a transcript that we were using with the Petrovic video that we

 7     were watching.  That transcript was not the most updated --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, first of all you're not supposed to

 9     speak when someone else is speaking and second if you want to speak, you

10     should do it at a lower volume.

11             Ms. Hasan.

12             MS. HASAN:  That transcript was not the updated version we have,

13     in fact, there was a version that was worked on by the Prosecution in

14     collaboration with Mr. Stojanovic and his team during the Popovic trial

15     and that is the most recent one, so we've replaced the transcript.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you need the approval of the Chamber --

19     Madam Registrar needs the approval of the Chamber to replace anything in

20     e-court, but we'll deal with that later.  Let's first focus at this

21     moment on -- good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would like to remind you that you are still

24     bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

25     testimony.  There is no need to repeat it but you are bound by it still.


Page 12276

 1                           WITNESS:  TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The examination-in-chief will now continue.

 3             Ms. Hasan.

 4             MS. HASAN:  Yes.  Just to go back to that transcript because we

 5     will be using the new transcript during this part of the examination.

 6     The video and the road book -- sorry, the video itself was not MFI'd and

 7     hasn't been entered into evidence yet, so we did replace the transcript

 8     in e-court with a new one.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.  If it's not yet MFI'd or admitted,

10     then you can still upload the version you wish in e-court.

11             Now you want to tender them?

12             MS. HASAN:  I can wait to do that at the end.  I have a few

13     corrections to references I made to the transcript before, but we can do

14     that at the very end.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The very end of testimony of this witness.

16             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for that.  But we are now on notice

18     that a new version has been uploaded.  Please proceed.

19                           Examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   I'd like to pull up now the transcript we've been talking about

23     that's attached to 65 ter 24222.

24             MS. HASAN:  I repeat:  It's 24222.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the --


Page 12277

 1             MS. HASAN:  I'm sorry, I misspoke.  It's 22422.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but whatever is the case, it seems that the

 3     computers are not yet -- there we are.

 4             MS. HASAN:  If we could have pages 10 in English and 11 in the

 5     B/C/S, please.

 6        Q.   Witness, if you remember, we were discussing a conversation that

 7     took place on the road via Motorola, and if we could actually -- the

 8     conversation begins on this page but let's turn to page 11 in English and

 9     the next page in the B/C/S.

10             Witness, you see at the top of the page there we had previously

11     discussed this conversation where we hear Ljubisa Borovcanin say Oficir,

12     Bor, and you told us what those mean.  I just want to get some

13     clarification from you and that is the way that's being said there by

14     Mr. Borovcanin, Oficir, Bor, that type of introduction, does that give us

15     any clues as to who the conversation is between?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Here we see Ljubisa Borovcanin using the

17     code-name or nickname of another officer, Oficir, in fact, calling him to

18     the radio, and this is typical police conversation, not police, not only

19     police but armed forces conversation through the radio handset -- radio,

20     for example.  If somebody calls somebody or just using his first whatever

21     code-name or name, and introducing himself, he is using the short way to

22     introducing himself.  He called Oficir, Bor.  It means Borovcanin calling

23     Oficir and introducing himself as Bor.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   In fact, Your Honour, if I may correct, he is talking -- this


Page 12278

 1     is -- translation here is "officer" but it was the exact word from B/C/S

 2     was translated because the name of this person, the proper name is

 3     Rade Cuturic and his nickname is "Oficir," and it was translated in this

 4     way.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Thank you for that.  If we could now play the

 6     Petrovic video where we left off.  So that's 22422 and we pick up at 19

 7     minutes, 10 seconds.

 8                           [Videotape played]

 9             MS. HASAN:  It appears we don't have any sound.  If we could just

10     pause it and ...

11             Perhaps we can -- yeah, perhaps we can try again and see.

12                           [Videotape played]

13             MS. HASAN:  Sorry, it's still very low, the sound.  I can barely

14     hear what's being said.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I can hear some voices in the background but the

16     ramble is by far stronger than what we are supposed to hear.  Is it the

17     quality of the material or is it a technical problem?

18             MS. HASAN:  Well, as far as I can recall, the last time we played

19     it in fact we heard it a little bit better than this.  So I don't think

20     it's the quality of the video itself.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             MS. HASAN:  In fact, the questions I intend to ask don't relate

23     to what's being said because it's only for the benefit of the Defence

24     because we see what's being said here in English.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to play it again from the beginning, and


Page 12279

 1     if we have no sound, we still have the text.  It's not complete then but

 2     if the Defence needs any additional explanation, then we'll hear from

 3     them.  Could we restart where we started a minute ago.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             MS. HASAN:  Could we just stop it right there?  Perfect.  And if

 6     we can -- sorry, that's at 21 minutes and 3 seconds.

 7        Q.   Witness, could you just remind us where we are along the road

 8     briefly?

 9        A.   We are on the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje.  We are more or less

10     in the location very near Sandici meadow.

11        Q.   And if we could turn to the road book itself to the hard copies.

12             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, if you have those before you at page 50

13     and 51.  I believe that the Defence now has B/C/S versions of the road

14     book in hard copy and that would assist now if we could give the witness

15     also a copy of the road book.

16        Q.   Okay.  So we've almost stopped it here at the image we see on

17     page 50 labelled video still B, and we see that we're about 100 metres

18     from Sandici meadow.  And, Witness, can you tell us is Mr. Borovcanin

19     with Mr. Petrovic at this point in time when they've stopped here along

20     the road?

21        A.   Yes, Mr. Borovcanin is entire time with Zoran Petrovic,

22     Pirocanac.  I believe if we played that video, Mr. Borovcanin is visible

23     here from -- on this picture a little bit behind the guy with blue helmet

24     we see in the back -- in the back we see the car used also by

25     Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Pirocanac.  This is Mr. Borovcanin.


Page 12280

 1        Q.   We will get to that image in just a few moments.  Now, these

 2     persons we see in image A and B, can you tell us what units they're from

 3     if you know?

 4        A.   These two person visible on this picture A and B, and they are

 5     members of the Jahorina unit.  I believe they are members of the

 6     1st Company of Jahorina unit commanded by Mane Djuric.

 7        Q.   And we saw on the video that they're pointing their guns

 8     downwards, their rifles.  Can you tell us what it is that they're aiming

 9     at or directing their rifles at?

10        A.   Below this road there is a stream going along the road, call it

11     Krivace river, and this is quite few metres slope, and the people who are

12     walking along the -- through the woods or through the hills on the

13     right-hand side from, if you look at this picture here, they were --

14     were -- when they were surrendering to the Serb soldiers, they were going

15     down to -- from the hill towards this direction towards the road and then

16     taken to Sandici meadow.

17        Q.   We see here in video still C on page 50 as well as the photograph

18     number 3 on page 51, what have you tried to capture there?

19        A.   I would like to show on these two pictures that this is a creek

20     or river just running along this road.

21        Q.   And can we in fact hear the river or creek on the video?

22        A.   Yeah, I believe we hear the creek on the video, but the river I

23     don't know that is very well visible but it's possible to see it.

24             MS. HASAN:  Your Honour, we didn't have very good sound on that.

25     If we -- if there is a need later, we can go back to it but ...


Page 12281

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we heard ramble rather than murmuring streams,

 2     yes.  Please proceed.

 3             MS. HASAN:  Okay.  If we can continue then playing the video just

 4     for a few more seconds, please.

 5                           [Videotape played]

 6             MS. HASAN:  If we can pause it right there.  That's at 21 minutes

 7     and 14 seconds.

 8        Q.   Witness, if we can turn now to page 52 and 53 now in our books.

 9     We almost have the image on our screens, that's on page 52, video still

10     B.  Can you tell us who the persons are that we see in that video still

11     image.

12        A.   Here we see Ljubisa Borovcanin with a soldier with blue helmet.

13     It looks for me that this is soldier of special forces brigade because if

14     you look at his left arm, it's visible at least partially, the badge of

15     Special Police Brigade, and the man bending towards the open door of the

16     car behind it, I believe this is Mr. Borovcanin driver, Nedjo -- his

17     first name is Nedjo.

18        Q.   Okay.  And if we just look at our screens, we in fact see another

19     person there.  Do you know who that is?  A fourth person.

20        A.   You are referring to, sorry?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You are referring, Ms. Hasan, I take it, to the

22     person who is to the right of the person bending over looking into the

23     car.

24             MS. HASAN:  Yes, the man who appears to be wearing a black

25     T-shirt.


Page 12282

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I do not recall at this moment.

 3             MS. HASAN:

 4        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us whether you know whose vehicle that is

 5     that we see there, the silver or white coloured vehicle?

 6        A.   This is silver white colour vehicle.  This is the vehicle used by

 7     Mr. Borovcanin and his driver and of course Mr. Pirocanac.  According to

 8     the statement given to us by Mr. Borovcanin's driver, it is SEAT Toledo,

 9     and on the roof we see aerial also, the radio aerial.

10        Q.   Now, the man that you refer to wearing the blue helmet, does that

11     helmet in fact belong to that unit or which force do the blue helmets

12     belong to?

13        A.   No, this type of helmet was never used by special police brigade

14     at least in the Jahorina unit.  That was used by UNPROFOR soldier.  As I

15     see here, it could be used by UNPROFOR.  It could be UNPROFOR equipment.

16             MS. HASAN:  Okay.  Let's continue playing the video.

17                           [Videotape played]

18             MS. HASAN:  Just stop it right there.  I'm sorry, if we could

19     pause it right there.  That's at 21 minutes and 59 seconds.  And if we

20     can turn to pages 54 and 55 in the road book.

21        Q.   Witness, now we saw on the video and we see here on page 54 of

22     your book men that appear to be walking.  Can you tell us first where we

23     are at this point in time?

24        A.   Your Honour, we are in the back side of -- in fact -- yeah, on

25     the left-hand side of this white destroyed house across the road of


Page 12283

 1     Sandici meadow, and these men, they are walking from the fields, and

 2     walking across -- they are passing this white destroyed house and they

 3     are passing the road.  They are taken to Sandici meadow.

 4        Q.   How is it that you have determined that they are in fact passing

 5     the destroyed white house?

 6        A.   If you follow the movement of the camera, if you see the location

 7     over there, if you compare, for example, having this -- my picture from

 8     Petrovic video C from page 54, and let's say picture 1 and picture 2

 9     from -- on page 55, you see that this is the house, this destroyed white

10     house.  Later on, we can see also -- also more details of this house.

11        Q.   Okay.  We'll get back to the house.  And in photograph 3 that's

12     on page 55 of your book, you have an arrow marked CAB.  Is that the path

13     that you've determined these men to have taken?

14        A.   Yes, exactly.  Here I marked by this arrow, I marked the path

15     which was used by the men taken to Sandici meadow.

16        Q.   And have you taken that path yourself?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  I was there so many times.

18        Q.   The hills in fact that we see behind the destroyed white house,

19     for example, in photograph 1, are those the same hills that we earlier in

20     the Petrovic video saw the Pragas shooting towards.  Is that the same

21     direction, the same right side of the road or is it another side?

22        A.   No, this is the same side of the road.  This is the same hills.

23        Q.   And when you had referred to the men walking, coming from the

24     hills, are those the hills you are referring to?

25        A.   Yes, you are right.  I'm referring to these hills behind this


Page 12284

 1     white destroyed house.

 2             MS. HASAN:  Okay.  We can continue playing the video, please.

 3                           [Videotape played]

 4             MS. HASAN:  If we could pause it right there, please.  That's at

 5     23 minutes and 8 seconds.

 6        Q.   Now, if we turn the pages again in your book, pages 56 and 57, we

 7     see you've captured some of the images from that portion of the video

 8     clip.  Now, can you tell us -- Witness, at the beginning of that clip we

 9     saw, and we see them a little bit in photo still image B, some uniformed

10     persons.  Can you tell us if you know who they are?

11        A.   On the still B from the page 56, we see the members of PJP unit.

12     I do not recall their names now, but I'm sure that they are members of

13     PJP.  They have been recognised by us and they were interviewed by OTP.

14        Q.   Okay.  And in terms of figuring out the path that they took which

15     you appear to have marked on page 57 in your photograph, can you tell us

16     what you used to determine that path, what features?

17        A.   Location of this white destroyed house, shape of the road, the

18     path, shape of the terrain.

19        Q.   Okay.  And if you can just assist us a little bit.  On the video

20     still images you've captured --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, I'm looking at the clock, it's quarter

22     past 2.00.  I think we should continue tomorrow.

23             Mr. Blaszczyk, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30

24     in this same courtroom I, and I again instruct you that should not speak

25     with anyone about your testimony whether testimony already given or


Page 12285

 1     testimony still to be given.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may follow the usher.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

 6     Friday, the 7th of June at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom I.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of June,

 9                           2013, at 9.30 a.m.

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