1 Friday, 7 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Judge Fluegge is due to urgent
11 personal circumstances is unable to sit today. This will be for a
12 limited period of time we expect him back on Monday.
13 Judge Moloto and myself, we have considered whether it would be
14 in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case. We have
15 concluded that it is in the interest of justice and therefore we sit 15
16 bis today.
17 I do understand that an effort has been made to fix the audio
18 problems we had yesterday and that it is not yet successful. The Chamber
19 decided since there is a transcript in two languages available for the
20 videos we looked at yesterday, and most likely will continue to look at
21 today, that it is -- that we should proceed and hope that it will be
22 fixed as soon as possible.
23 Finally, often during the examination of the present witness,
24 reference is made to the road book. Now, the road book is a name which
25 stands for a 65 ter document and that is in the e-court version, it is
1 65 ter 05759, and I'd like to invite the parties to always refer to that
2 number so that if later someone reads the transcript that he knows what
3 document the road book is.
4 We have nothing else at this moment. Could the witness be
5 escorted into the courtroom.
6 And I do understand that the Prosecution, that there is some
7 dispute as to how much time there is still left, but it's certainly not
8 more than one hour. In the one view 40 minutes; in the other view I do
9 understand 60 minutes. If the Prosecution could try to see whether it
10 can finish during the first session that would be appreciated.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk. I'm pronouncing your
13 name wrongly. It is Blaszczyk.
14 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound
18 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony
19 and Ms. Hasan will now continue her examination in chief.
20 Ms. Hasan.
21 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to everyone
22 in the courtroom and around the courtroom.
23 Mr. President, Your Honour --
24 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
25 Examination by Ms. Hasan: [Continued]
1 Q. Witness --
2 MS. HASAN: We don't have very good sound on the video we were
3 watching yesterday. What I propose to do is use the version of the
4 video, the Petrovic video that we received from the BBC which has
5 superior sound quality and doesn't appear to have any problem being
6 played. It has the same transcript and because I want some of the sound
7 to be heard today, my proposal is we proceed with that one. It means the
8 time codes are slightly off by a few seconds from what's shown in
9 65 ter 5759, the road book, and the figures we were referring to earlier.
10 If that's agreeable then ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been verified that the content is exactly the
12 same as the content of the video uploaded into e-court?
13 MS. HASAN: I believe the witness has already testified about
14 that but we can ask again.
15 Q. Witness, could you advise whether the content of the video
16 Petrovic raw footage we received from the BBC, on whether or not that is
17 identical to the raw footage from Mr. Petrovic?
18 A. Yes, these two materials are the same materials.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I don't know whether the witness was
20 involved in uploading the material in e-court because that's my primary
21 concern, that what we see is the same as what is in e-court.
22 I do understand that the witness has not been involved in
23 uploading it in this case in e-court. But let's assume and everyone is
24 very alert on any possible discrepancies.
25 I do not hear opposition at this moment from the Defence so
1 please proceed as you had suggested.
2 MS. HASAN: Just so that the record is clear, this is
3 65 ter 22287. It's V000-3915 and that's exactly what was uploaded into
5 Q. Now, we left off in the road book, 65 ter 5759, and on pages 56
6 and 57, and I'm going to dispense with the identifications of individuals
7 that have been captured on page 56 as these are -- these can be found in
8 the Bosnian Muslim ID book that was just entered into evidence,
9 Exhibit P1532, at pages 14, pages 16, and page 30. So those
10 identifications can be found there.
11 MS. HASAN: If we can turn now to the next page, 58 and 59, and
12 start playing the video. Sorry, I understand the witness doesn't have a
13 copy of 65 ter 5759. If we could just hand that to him, please.
14 Okay. So we'll start playing the video at time code 23 minutes
15 and 31 seconds. That's not exactly where we left off because there is a
16 bit of discrepancy in the timing. This doesn't affect any of the
17 content. If we could just start playing it there for a moment, please.
18 [Videotape played]
19 MS. HASAN: Can you just pause it there? Thank you. That's at
20 23 minutes and 50 seconds.
21 Q. Witness, we just saw a second or two of footage that showed an
22 image of Mr. Karadzic appearing, what appears to be on television. Can
23 you explain what that is and why -- why it's there?
24 A. This image of course is not related at all to the recordings made
25 in the area of Kravica and Sandici and Pervani, Potocari, but this -- in
1 fact, the image was inserted to the tape or according to Mr. Petrovic,
2 his explanation was that he used an old tape, not new tape, and -- for
3 recordings these events in this area, that it could be also -- also that
4 a few seconds of interview of Mr. Karadzic who -- was left on the tape
5 before he used it during his trip to Bosnia.
6 MS. HASAN: If we could continue running the tape for a few more
8 [Videotape played]
9 MS. HASAN: If we could pause it there. That's at 24 minutes and
10 17 seconds.
11 Q. In 65 ter 5759, the road book at page 58, and in the clip we just
12 viewed, we saw a man wearing some blue boots which is captured in video
13 still image B. Can you tell us where he's coming from and in what
14 direction he's headed?
15 A. This man with blue boots and probably leather jacket, he's coming
16 from the parting, from the hills, he's passing through destroyed white
17 house across the road from Sandici meadow and he's heading towards
18 Sandici meadow itself.
19 Q. Is this what you've tried to reconstruct on page 59 of
20 65 ter 5759 in the images there?
21 A. Yeah, it is correct. Your Honours, if you look at my picture
22 from page 59, picture 1, and the still from Petrovic video, still A, you
23 see two pillars of probably the fence at that time located in -- near
24 this destroyed white house. We have the same pillars on my picture from
25 2006. For example, I'm referring to this part of this picture comparing
1 these two pictures.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just ask a question. I don't think I
3 understand your previous answer, Mr. Blaszczyk. You're saying this man
4 with blue boots and probably leather jacket, he is coming from the hills.
5 He's passing the destroyed white house across from Sandici meadow and
6 he's heading towards Sandici meadow. Now he can't be coming from there
7 and still going there at the same time.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
9 The destroyed white house is located across the Sandici meadow
10 and this man is coming from the destroyed white house towards Sandici
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
13 MS. HASAN: Now, when you testified earlier, and this is at
14 transcript page 11587, I had asked you about the timings of killings that
15 took place at Kravica warehouse, and you testified that they happened
16 shortly after Mr. Borovcanin ordered the traffic to be stopped. And you
17 also made a reference to machine-gun fire and explosions that can be
18 heard later on the tape. What I'd like to do is play that portion of the
19 tape and if you could tell us whether that's the portion where we can
20 hear the gunfire and explosions.
21 So this is 65 ter 22287 starting at 22 seconds -- sorry, 22
22 minutes, 58 seconds.
23 So for the record we're actually going back in the video just
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: Could you stop here, please. Your Honours, in the
2 back sound we hear some machine-guns and also I hear some explosions. I
3 believe this is hand grenade explosions. At least one and later on we
4 can hear another one.
5 MS. HASAN: Let's -- so we just stopped it at 23 minutes and 10
6 seconds. Let's just roll the tape for a few more seconds to see if we
7 hear the other explosion you are referring to.
8 [Videotape played]
9 THE WITNESS: This one.
10 MS. HASAN: We pause it now at 23 minutes and 26 seconds.
11 Your Honours, I don't know if you'd like to hear the tape again
12 all the way through or if that suffices.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It suffices.
14 MS. HASAN:
15 Q. Now, besides what you have concluded from the timing of the
16 Petrovic video itself and the explosions that we've just heard on the
17 video, has your investigation revealed any other evidence about the
18 timing of the Kravica warehouse massacre?
19 A. Most of the evidence regarding Kravica execution or massacre came
20 from witness statements and of course the Petrovic material was
21 supporting material and very helpful material to determine the time when
22 this execution occurred.
23 Q. And what is it that those witness statements have revealed to you
24 in this respect as to -- as far as the timing is concerned?
25 A. The witnesses who were interviewed by OTP, by myself as well, a
1 few of them, they confirmed that executions started sometime in afternoon
2 on the 13th of July, 1995. It was about 5.00, 6.00 afternoon.
3 Q. And was there any documentary evidence that assisted you as well?
4 A. Yes. Also there is some documents. For example, it was -- we
5 know that during this incident, this execution in Kravica warehouse at
6 least one Serbian police officer was killed, another one was wounded.
7 Another soldier was wounded. And these two -- two soldiers were taken,
8 they ended up in Bratunac health centre on the 13th of July 1995. It was
9 about 5.00. I believe one of them was admitted to the Bratunac health
10 centre, it was half past 5.00 in the afternoon; another one was 20
11 minutes to 6.00; and the body of officer who was killed during this
12 events in Kravica, I think the admission time is about 1900 hours in
13 Bratunac health centre.
14 MS. HASAN: Now, Your Honours --
15 Q. Sorry, Witness, are you referring to the Bratunac health centre
16 log, is that the document you're referring to?
17 A. Yes, this is correct. I am referring to Bratunac health centre
19 MS. HASAN: And this is, Your Honours, Exhibit P1477. You may
20 recall taking a look at that.
21 Q. Witness, can you tell us the names of the persons you are
22 referring to that were injured?
23 A. Rade Cuturic, also the commander -- in fact the commander of
24 the -- the deputy commander of Sekovici command, he burned him -- his
25 hand. Another man who was wounded during this event was a member of
1 Red Berets of Bratunac Brigade. His name is Miroslav Stanojevic and
2 Kristo Dragisev -- Dragacevac, I believe his name was Dragasevac, was
3 killed during this incident.
4 MS. HASAN: If we return now to the video, 65 ter 22287. And we
5 play it from 23 -- let's just continue playing it from where we left off.
6 23 minutes and 26 seconds.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MS. HASAN: Can we just pause it right there, please. That's at
9 24 minutes and 12 seconds.
10 Q. Witness, we heard a screeching car, what sounded like a
11 screeching car, and if we look at the transcript, there is a call on the
12 Motorola and the transcript reads "Laser 2 is calling you." Do you know
13 whose code-name laser 2 is?
14 A. Laser 2, this is Ljubisa Borovcanin the commander of the --
15 deputy commander of the special police brigade.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, before we continue, I think the witness
17 referred to the 15th of July several times, there was a -- it may have
18 been misunderstood. I was in doubt as a matter of fact. But I see that
19 at least the Bratunac medical centre log, the entry is on the 13th of
20 July and since I now found twice 15th of July I would like to have that
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, the log is from the 13th of July,
23 1995, one three July, 1995.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you always want to refer to the 13th
25 rather than the 15th as is in the transcript a couple of times.
1 THE WITNESS: It's correct, Your Honour. Just most of the --
2 these events was recorded on the 13th, especially on this road,
3 Pervani-Kravica-Sandici was recorded on the 13th of July 1995 not on the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You see that there are two references, page 7,
6 line 17, Ms. Hasan, and page 7, line 23. The one has the date of the
7 event in Kravica and the other one referring to the log. Please proceed.
8 MS. HASAN: Thank you, Mr. President if we can continue playing
9 the video from 24 minutes and 12 -- actually let's just stop right there.
10 Keep it right there for a moment.
11 Q. Now we just left off talking about the call sign laser 2 and you
12 told us that's the call sign for Mr. Borovcanin. On what do you base
13 your knowledge on?
14 A. I accept testimony of -- statements of few witnesses from special
15 police brigade who are very familiar with this call sign of the people
16 from the special police brigade. I believe we have also some documents
17 saying that this call sign belongs to deputy commander of the special
18 police brigade.
19 MS. HASAN: Let's continue playing the video.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MS. HASAN: Let's pause it right there. It's 25 minutes and 5
23 Q. Witness, we saw initially a few seconds of a black screen
24 followed by this footage of what appears to be a food rations box. Do
25 you have any explanation for what this clip is doing in this part of the
2 A. Yes, this part of the video was over-recorded and in the later
3 stage when Mr. Petrovic probably returned from -- from the area of
4 Srebrenica-Bratunac, and he admitted during his interview that this --
5 this food ration was -- in fact, he admitted that it was recorded at his
6 home, incidentally according to him, and we know comparing to having in
7 our possession the Studio B edited material, we came to the conclusion --
8 we established that in this part of the video over-recorded in the raw
9 material there should be footage from -- of the bodies in Kravica
11 Q. Okay. We'll just take a look at that in a moment, but before we
12 do can we just recap for us from where Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic --
13 so the last we saw them was in Sandici and where did they go after that?
14 A. In fact, we are in the second day now on the 14th of July, 1995,
15 and a few seconds before -- before we have this blank portion of this
16 video, it was the last footage recorded in Sandici meadow. A few
17 seconds -- I believe it was about 11 or 12 seconds before. Yeah, 24
19 MS. HASAN: All right. If we could in our book -- road books,
20 65 ter 5759, turn to pages 60 and 61. And if I could call up
21 65 ter 22362 which is the Studio B footage that you just referred to.
22 And I'd ask that we start playing at 18 minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Ms. Hasan, I would like to draw
24 your attention to the following. I think that the video 65 ter 22287
25 which you used is partially uploaded through Witness Gallagher on the
1 number 22287A, that is marked for identification at this moment if I
2 understand well, and I wonder whether we should -- if there are any
3 additional portions played now, whether we should have made one exhibit
4 or still have it as two exhibits.
5 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, as I understand it, 22 -- 65 ter
6 22287 A which was used with Ms. Gallagher was a 20-second clip taken from
7 this video, so I'm going to be offering the entirety of the video and I'm
8 told that the correct time codes were provided, so the clip can be
9 located on the full version of the video that I will offer in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, P1518 MFI'd which was the portion used
11 with Ms. Gallagher that we don't need that -- to have that separately in
12 evidence any further.
13 MS. HASAN: It sounds like it might be an easy reference to just
14 have the 20-second clip admitted on its own, however, it can be found on
15 the full video so we can dispense with the clip.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at it, especially keeping in mind
17 what puzzles we are putting to those who later will read the transcripts
18 of this case.
19 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, I think when counsel says the time
20 code was identified. I'm not sure if that was in the transcript or if
21 it's in e-court. If it's in e-court, then someone reading the transcript
22 will not be able to locate that 20-second segment, so --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's wisest. The whole of 22287 is how
24 long, Ms. Hasan? Let's deal with it -- we have it in mind. I think I
25 said, and it was on the 5th of June, that I said and to see what the
1 total compilation finally we'll have in evidence. So let's consider it.
2 We can proceed at this very moment.
3 MS. HASAN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. So we are now at
4 65 ter 22362 which is a Studio B edited footage and we are at 18 minutes.
5 If we could just play that portion.
6 [Videotape played]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I hear music and something that sounds similar to
8 gunfire but we have no picture. And looking at all the screens around
9 me, it's the same. Any way to restart it?
10 MS. HASAN: Should we start replaying it?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you think that you can bring the picture as
13 MS. HASAN: Okay. Let's --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid it's the same.
15 Madam Registrar, any chance that --
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, is there any way since the problem seems
18 to be -- the origin of the problem seems to be unknown, is there any way
19 that we could proceed already with perhaps other parts and then revisit
20 this matter at a later stage? I do understand it's inconvenient because
21 of the time line you are following.
22 MS. HASAN: Okay. I will skip that portion and it get back to it
23 once that is resolved. I understand, Mr. President, that it's now been
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's give it a try. I see at least something
1 on my screen. Yes.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. HASAN: Okay. Let's pause it right there. That's at 18
4 minutes and 12 seconds.
5 And, Your Honours, I don't want to be creating more puzzles,
6 however, this footage is in our Srebrenica trial video and also in a slow
7 motion version so that can be viewed there. That's Exhibit P1148 on the
8 CD V000-9267 at 35 minutes and 59 seconds.
9 Q. Witness, you've already told us that this portion is not on
10 Mr. Petrovic's raw footage. Can you tell us what location we just saw?
11 A. Your Honour, we have in fact in this part of the video played to
12 us from Studio B, we -- I would divide it for three segments. The first
13 segment is showing us the first few seconds showing us the view of
14 Potocari from the 14 July 1995 which is on the original material
15 Mr. Petrovic still exists. Another segment is a segment showing us
16 Kravica warehouse and a body in front of the Kravica warehouse. And then
17 when we pass the bodies when we pass the bus in front of the Kravica
18 warehouse, we have again -- we see now the footage from the 14th of July,
19 1995, recorded by Petrovic on the 14 -- the following day. This is
20 additional material to Studio B.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question to ask based on the question
22 that Madam Hasan put. She says witness you have already told that this
23 portion is not on this Mr. Petrovic's raw footage. Do I understand that
24 to mean that this BBC tape has this part and Petrovic's tape doesn't have
1 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, both raw tapes -- the copy of the
2 raw tapes we received from Mr. Petrovic and BBC copy is almost -- this is
3 identical copy.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 THE WITNESS: This is material only broadcasted in Studio B in
6 sometime in July 1995. This is edited material. Containing of course
7 the footage from Petrovic.
8 MS. HASAN:
9 Q. So if I understand it correctly, then, Studio B broadcasts a
10 portion of Mr. Petrovic's video and what they broadcast is slightly out
11 of sequence from the original footage that Mr. Petrovic took; am I
13 A. Yes, this is correct. As I said this is edited material. It's
14 mean not in the sequences, not played in the sequences.
15 Q. Now, the video footage we saw of the Kravica warehouse,
16 Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin are moving from where and in what
17 direction as they pass the Kravica warehouse?
18 A. The car with Mr. Petrovic and Mr. Borovcanin, they are moving
19 from Sandici meadow towards Bratunac. They are passing Kravica warehouse
20 from west.
21 MS. HASAN: If we could just take a look at page 60 and 61 in
22 65 ter 5759.
23 Q. We see that you've put on the left on page 60 the video still
24 images from the Studio B edited material. Now, on image A where we see
25 the Studio B icon that you've explained to us before, we see a black box
1 right in the middle there. Can you tell us what that is?
2 A. I'm not sure to what you're referring to.
3 Q. I'm referring to just right behind the pile of bodies there.
4 There appears to be a door. Is that a door or what is it that we're
5 seeing there?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour, this is a door, the big door leading us to the
7 inside of western part of Kravica warehouse. This is closed door. At
8 the beginning of our investigation we thought that the door is open, the
9 reflection, the white reflection is a reflection from the windows of the
10 warehouse on another side of the warehouse but later on we established
11 that this is door and the white reflection -- in fact, they are hundreds
12 of door.
13 Q. So we're looking at the western door and the white -- the white
14 squares we see there are the door handles. Now, the Kravica warehouse,
15 does it have multiple doors?
16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because this is -- entire compound, you
17 know, just there are a few doors, similar doors, and I believe also a
18 double door, at least one more like this.
19 Q. And if we look at page 61 in 65 ter 5759, we in fact see images
20 that you've captured later on. And looking at them, I don't see the
21 doors that I see in video still image A on page 60. Can you explain that
22 for us?
23 A. Yes, I can explain whole images. Of course, the door is not
24 visible here because during the cleaning up operation, let's say in this
25 way, the door was destroyed and disappeared. A part of the frames of the
1 door were found as far as I remember even in the grave of -- in Glogova
2 grave where the bodies from Kravica warehouse were taken after the
3 execution. But it's not visible on my picture from page 61, the door.
4 But in the back side we have -- we can see part of on the picture 3 on
5 page 61, where the car is standing is not very well visible here, but
6 there is a door from administration building of Kravica warehouse, this
7 is single door but similar one having the same handles, door handles.
8 Q. Okay. If we turn to the back of 65 ter 5759, there is an
9 interactive CD provided and that had a separate 65 ter number, in fact
10 it's 65 ter 5760.
11 MS. HASAN: If we could set that up. This is what we call an
12 interactive CD presentation, and it accompanies the road book, and I'm
13 just going to ask the witness to demonstrate how this CD works and how it
14 can be used.
15 I don't know if everyone can see D000-1909 on their screens?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we going to be seeing 65 ter 5760 or are we
17 going to be seeing 009109?
18 MS. HASAN: You're correct, Your Honour. It's 65 ter 5760 that
19 that we'll be seeing and that has an ERN which is what I read out. I
20 should have been more clear. The ERN is D000-1909.
21 Q. Is that visible now?
22 A. Yes. Yes, Your Honour, I see on my screen.
23 Q. Okay, Witness, if you could just -- I want to focus just --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Wait a minute. We don't see anything yet.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] We see the letter
1 D000 --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We now have it on our screen. At least we see --
4 no, we do not -- yes, we see a picture on part of our screen which starts
5 with in red, D000-1909.
6 MS. HASAN: Now -- so this is a CD presentation, and I'm afraid
7 because it's being played from a laptop that the witness has, it won't be
8 a full screen, it won't cover the full screen.
9 Q. But, Witness, if you could walk us through this. I want to focus
10 just on the Kravica warehouse for a moment, but if you could briefly tell
11 us what other areas your CD presentation covers.
12 A. Yes, this is -- Your Honour, this is a file, in fact, which is on
13 the CD, this interactive CD. We made this CD just to let the people who
14 never been in this area or who -- they -- they were been there not so
15 often, to better orientate on the terrain in the area. And to make kind
16 of virtual trip in the area of Sandici. In fact, I divided this
17 presentation for two part. This is the first part so related to
18 Potocari, we can walk. We can see the area of Potocari.
19 And another part is related to the road Sandici-Pervani-Kravica.
20 And operating on this CD we can make a small trip to -- we can make a
21 trip to this area, we can see the area from various multiple
22 perspectives. And some part of the file are linked with Petrovic video
23 stills. I think it would be the best if I can operate this CD to show
24 you how it works.
25 Q. Please do so and if you can focus on the Kravica warehouse.
1 A. Yes. Your Honour, this CD was created using the software called
2 Quick Time Player. On the bottom of this screen, we have a few buttons
3 here. The first one on the right, from the right-hand side with question
4 mark is kind of the help button. If you activate this button, we can see
5 that the screen is getting bluer, it means that this part of the screen
6 is linked to another field or picture or still.
7 Here, we have zoom in button. We can enlarge the picture, to
8 some extent of course, and using the minus button we can -- came to the
9 original size.
10 The reverse button on the left-hand side, just the last one from
11 the left-hand side, if you like to return to the previous picture we can
12 use this button, help button, as well.
13 As I said, using this button with question mark, the help button,
14 we can see which field is linked to another, another location in this
15 presentation. We can enter the location. We see the map first. I put
16 here a map of entire Bosnia-Herzegovina with box showing us location
17 when -- when and where the picture was recorded from Petrovic video.
18 We can see that this area is also linked to another area. It
19 takes us to close up map of the same location. And as I said, I divided
20 this presentation for two parts. The first one this is Potocari and
21 another one is related to Kravica and Sandici, Pervani, Lolici road.
22 Because I remember by heart this presentation, I don't need to
23 use this help button, but if somebody is operating this presentation
24 first time, the best is using this button which is getting us to
25 particular location.
1 And again, we are in the map of -- it took us to the map of -- on
2 the road, first Sandici, Lolici, Pervani, and Kravica area. I was asked
3 to go first to go to Kravica.
4 Your Honour, moving the cursor, we can watch the area, the
5 compound of Kravica warehouse. We can move a little bit down to the
6 east. We are in front of the Kravica warehouse.
7 Here, in front of the Kravica warehouse, we see the road leading
8 from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac. Bratunac is to the right, Sandici is to
9 the left.
10 Again, we are in the front of eastern part of Kravica warehouse.
11 We can go to the corner of Kravica warehouse as well. We have a view of
12 entire compound of Kravica and this is building used by administration,
13 administration building in Kravica warehouse.
14 Your Honour, this is the door I referred a few minutes ago that
15 having the same door handles like the big door, the double door in
16 western part of Kravica warehouse.
17 We can walk, we can return to the western part of Kravica
18 warehouse. We are in the front of the door. As I said, I know this
19 presentation very well but if somebody using it can use this help button
20 here, you see the marked fields getting us to another picture or still.
21 For example, pressing on the door, it takes us to still from
22 Studio B of Petrovic still from July 1995 recorded -- in July 1995. We
23 have the same door, of course different shape, because the door doesn't
24 exist in fact but the hole from the door is a different one -- sorry.
25 Here, we see -- we see the location of the bus also recorded by
1 Mr. Petrovic on the field in 13 July 1995.
2 Your Honour, we can get into the western part of Kravica
3 warehouse. We are inside now. You may have a look at how it looks --
4 looked in 2006.
5 We can move a little bit down to west part of western part of
6 Kravica warehouse, the east part of the western part of Kravica
7 warehouse. I believe, Your Honour, that you heard or you are going to
8 hear the testimony of one of the survivor who survived the execution
9 which took place in this part of the Kravica warehouse. And he survived
10 hiding in small house at that time was served as kind of cleric booth,
11 whatever, it's called administration booth in Kravica warehouse inside.
12 Also, this small house inside the Kravica warehouse was destroyed
13 during the cleaning up operation when they cleaned up the Kravica
14 warehouse of the bodies. It was removed. But it's still visible here as
15 kind of the signs of the wall. It's very small. It's small house
16 inside, a booth.
17 You're coming to another end of the warehouse. We can go out.
18 We are again in the front of Kravica warehouse.
19 And here, if you look to the west, Sandici is located along this
20 road approximately about 1.000 metres. If I could zoom in little bit
21 more, I could see the Sandici meadow, it's visible, the Sandici meadow
22 from here, not the meadow but the location of Sandici is at least this
23 white destroyed house across the road from Sandici meadow.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, if I understand well, the Kravica
25 warehouse, the Kravica compound is south of the road Sandici-Bratunac?
1 THE WITNESS: Kravica warehouse in Kravica compound itself is --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I mean the warehouse, the pictures we see with the
4 doors and the holes and -- that's south of that road?
5 THE WITNESS: Is correct, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I note the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. HASAN: It might be a good place -- time to take a break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But of course I inquired with you whether you
11 would be able to finish in the first session because the 40 minutes, we
12 are beyond that certainly.
13 How much time would you still need?
14 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I have one very short chapter to go
15 through, a page on 65 ter 5759, and then that should be about it, so I
16 will need --
17 JUDGE ORIE: And that takes how many minutes?
18 MS. HASAN: It will just take us, looking at the video, 15
19 minutes, perhaps less.
20 JUDGE ORIE: This sounds as wishful thinking, Ms. Hasan. It
21 doesn't make much sense. We had some technical problems. It doesn't
22 make much sense to continue for another more than two or three minutes so
23 therefore let's take the break first.
24 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: In view of the technical problems we were facing,
2 Ms. Hasan, you have 15 minutes but not more after the break.
3 We'll resume at 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
7 MS. HASAN: Just for the record, Your Honours, the witness
8 mentioned another witness that will come to testify as he was showing us
9 the Kravica warehouse, the interactive CD, and that's RM256.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you may proceed and you have time until
13 20 minutes past 11.00.
14 MS. HASAN: Thank you.
15 Q. We left off looking at the interactive CD 65 ter 5760. Witness,
16 we're not going to go through the rest of the CD, but could you tell us
17 whether the remainder of the presentation, the Sandici and the Potocari
18 sections operate in the same way that you've demonstrated for us today?
19 A. Yes, exactly. It works the same way I presented with Kravica
21 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I'd then offer at this time
22 65 ter 5760 --
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5670 receives number P1537, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: P1537 is admitted into evidence. You may proceed,
3 Ms. Hasan.
4 MS. HASAN:
5 Q. Turning back to 65 ter 5759, the road book, Witness, the next
6 chapter we have in your book is Srebrenica town. We're not going to look
7 at that portion of the video but if you could just briefly tell us where
8 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic travel and briefly what happened during
9 that segment.
10 A. Your Honours, on the following day on the 14th July, 1995,
11 Mr. Borovcanin and Petrovic, they were driving towards -- to Srebrenica
12 and they stopped in Srebrenica. In fact, they were driving together with
13 the Deputy Minister of Interior Tomo Kovac. They stopped shortly at the
14 police station at that time, newly created police station in Srebrenica.
15 Mr. -- in the mean time, Mr. Petrovic, he made a tour, you know, in
16 Srebrenica, on the streets of Srebrenica. He took -- he recorded some
17 footages from this location. Later on, they drove together to
18 Zeleni Jadar wood factory. They stopped there for a while. Also
19 Petrovic recorded some footages from Zeleni Jadar. If we play Petrovic
20 video, we can see on the video Mr. Borovcanin, Mr. Tomo Kovac, and other
21 persons who assisted them including Dragomir Vasic, the chief of CJB
23 Q. If I could just stop you there for a moment. So we've moved now
24 from chapter 3 in your book to chapter 4 which relates to the
25 Zeleni Jadar wood factory; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. And if we turn to page 70 and 71 in 65 ter 5759, video still
3 image B which you've taken from the Petrovic video, can you tell us the
4 persons that we see in that image?
5 A. In this image, we see the first one, this is Tomo Kovac, the
6 deputy minister of interior of RS, the next to him is Dragomir Vasic
7 chief of CJB Zvornik, and then we see Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin, the deputy
8 commander of the special police brigade.
9 Q. Okay. Then we get towards the end of the Petrovic video and we
10 have a final chapter in your book beginning on page 72 about a mosque.
11 I'm not going to ask you any questions about that.
12 MS. HASAN: Your Honours, there is going to be a witness who will
13 testify specifically as to mosques themselves. So that brings us to the
14 conclusion of your book and pretty much to the conclusion of the Petrovic
15 video. So those will be -- those were all of my questions.
16 I have a few documents to offer into evidence; namely, the
17 8-millimetre Petrovic video received from Mr. Zoran Petrovic,
18 65 ter 22422. I'd offer that into evidence.
19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Video 22422 receives number P1538, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P1538 is admitted.
23 MS. HASAN: I'd offer then the road book, 65 ter 5759 into
25 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be an audio problem.
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could someone assist the ... problem resolved? It
4 Ms. Hasan, could you -- road book 65 ter 5759. Then we stopped
5 because of the audio problem. Mr. Ivetic, the road book, any objections?
6 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5759 receives number P1539,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
11 MS. HASAN: I then offer the Studio B edited broadcast of
12 portions of the Petrovic video provided to the OTP by Mr. Ljubisa
13 Borovcanin, 65 ter 22362 into evidence.
14 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: 22362 receives number P1540.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
18 Ms. Hasan, the description of it in your list is Petrovic video,
19 whereas you now describe it as the Studio B edited broadcast.
20 MS. HASAN: Yes. I see that that's how it's been described in
21 e-court. I think the witness has explained where that comes from.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But couldn't you give a description which also
23 expresses what -- that it's an edited --
24 MS. HASAN: Certainly. I think we can change that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- Studio B -- Studio B edited version of, among
1 others, Petrovic material.
2 MS. HASAN: Yes. We will do so, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The description therefore to be amended.
5 MS. HASAN: The next video would --
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I saw you were standing but since you
8 did not --
9 MR. IVETIC: I've been standing just to give a -- to say no
10 objection to the materials, so I just --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers].
12 MR. IVETIC: To make us go more efficiently, I thought I'd stay
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I understood your position.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: For the change of the description, please
17 co-ordinate with Madam Registrar.
18 Next one.
19 MS. HASAN: The next one is 65 ter 22287. Again, I propose we
20 change the description so it's more clear for everyone. This is a
21 Petrovic video that we obtained from the BBC. Again, we'll coordinate on
22 that to make sure the description is correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that we have a clear reference to this being
24 the BBC version.
25 MR. IVETIC: Also no objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, Madam Registrar will provide the
4 description in e-court. But if there's a surrogate sheet with your
5 description, of course Madam Registrar cannot change your cover sheets,
6 so then you have to - and hereby permission is granted - to adapt the
7 surrogate sheets to any observation I made in the last few minutes.
8 MS. HASAN: Thank you thank you very much.
9 Finally there's 65 ter 222.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we didn't get a number for 22287.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we were not -- we're not there yet.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- video 22287 receives number P1541,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: P1541 is admitted.
16 And your last one, Ms. Hasan.
17 MS. HASAN: The last one is a video tape that was seized by
18 Mr. Ljubisa Beara provided by the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, 65 ter 22274.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: The registrar gave the number off mike.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you gave the number when your
25 microphone was not activated. Could you please repeat it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours. So document 22274
2 receives number P1542.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P1542 is admitted into evidence and I take it due to
4 the microphone not being activated page 27, line 17 may have wrongly
5 reflected a number not mentioned, a number which was not mentioned by
6 Madam Registrar. It is P1542.
7 Ms. Hasan, you say this is a copy which was seized. Is that the
8 original one as seized or is it a copy of the seized videotape.
9 MS. HASAN: My understanding that this is a copy of the videotape
10 that was seized by Mr. Beara. The witness explained at the very
11 beginning of his testimony and we had entered also into evidence the
12 seizure report.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I have no problem with that but the way in which it
14 is described, it looks as if it's the one which was seized but it's a
15 copy of the seized videotape. That's hereby on the record and should be
16 reflected in the description.
17 That was it, Ms. Hasan?
18 MS. HASAN: Yes, those are all the exhibits.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Then, Mr. Blaszczyk, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.
21 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the defence team of Mr. Mladic.
22 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
25 Q. Good day, sir.
1 A. Good day, sir.
2 Q. Now today I will have some questions to ask you to clarify some
3 things that you brought up in your direct examination. Since we both
4 will be using English, I would like to ask you to keep in mind that we
5 must always observe a pause to make the jobs of the court reporter and
6 translators easier. Is that fair, sir?
7 A. Yes, I understand. I follow the transcript.
8 Q. Great. Now, I want to begin with some questions to better
9 understand your background. First of all, sir, are you conversant in any
10 of the B/C/S languages?
11 A. Your Honours, I understand B/C/S, let's say in this way, I can
12 communicate in B/C/S. But of course I'm not fluent in B/C/S. I can
13 communicate with people on the street. I can read the documents. I can
14 read Cyrillic, but I'm not fluent at all.
15 Q. Fair enough. Now, as part of either your studies or professional
16 training for the Polish police force on the one hand or the ICTY on the
17 other, did you have occasion to study the constitutional structure of the
18 SFRY or Republika Srpska including either the Law of Defence or the Law
19 of Internal Affairs?
20 A. No, I did not.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, the reason that I ask you this, sir, is that in
22 your direct examination you made a rather authoritative statement which I
23 want to discuss with you. And I'm talking about your testimony at
24 transcript page 11.568, lines 17 through 20, where you indicated that MUP
25 personnel were subordinated to the VRS.
1 Now, in relation to this assertion, I'd like to ask you, do you
2 consider yourself to be an expert on the topic such that we should treat
3 your testimony as authoritative on this point?
4 A. Your Honours, I am investigator for Srebrenica case almost ten
5 years. I read a lot of documents. And including the documents, the
6 order or dispatch of Deputy Minister of Interior Tomo Kovac. I remember
7 it was order from 10 July 1995. And I believe in this order, he
8 subordinated the units of MUP in operation to VRS. And also including
9 the statements of the witnesses not just -- I didn't go to the legal
10 aspects of this order.
11 Q. Thank you for that, sir. Now, could you answer my question? Do
12 you consider yourself to be an expert on the topic so that we should
13 treat your answer as being authoritative?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I think the witness has answered that he
15 did not go into the legal details of the matter and of course I
16 understand his answer to be that you described the situation from a
17 factual point of view as you found it, is that what you wanted to tell
19 THE WITNESS: Exactly, Your Honour. This is what I wanted to
21 JUDGE ORIE: Which I also understand means that you do not
22 consider yourself to be an expert on the legal aspects of such
24 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour. I'm not legal expert
25 for this aspect but I consider myself as kind of in some extent expert of
1 what happened in Srebrenica.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Now, in relation to this part of your testimony, you have
6 mentioned at that point in time a MUP order, and I believe now you've
7 identified it as an order from Mr. Kovac, have you in fact reviewed more
8 than this one order before testifying as you did about the factual
9 scenario as you believe at the subordination of the MUP to the VRS?
10 A. I think it should be also order of President Karadzic at that
11 time, just subordinating the MUP or just sending MUP to the operation of
12 Srebrenica and subordinating the units to VRS.
13 Q. Would that be the extent of the material that you reviewed in
14 terms of orders, the one order from the MUP minister and the one order
15 from the civilian president?
16 A. In fact, I remember very well Tomo Kovac order, I think he's
17 referring to the president order in this order.
18 Q. Sir, I'm asking you what you reviewed. Is this the extent of
19 what you reviewed, these two orders?
20 A. Definitely I reviewed the Tomo Kovac order.
21 Q. Fair enough. Now, and perhaps I should have asked you this
22 first, but is this a conclusion about the subordination of the MUP to the
23 VRS that you reached yourself or is it something that was given or
24 suggested to you by someone else within the Office of the Prosecutor that
25 you just adopted?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought Mr. Ivetic the witness has answered that
2 he read this from the two orders. It's not a conclusion. It's what he
4 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, and he first mentioned the
5 Karadzic order and then he mentioned that it's only the Kovac order. I'm
6 wondering if the Kovac order was something he found or whether it was
7 something that was given to him.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different question.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's a different question. You said conclusion.
10 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You have now rephrased your question and the witness
12 may answer the question.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you want it to be repeated, don't hesitate to ask
15 for it.
16 MR. IVETIC: Let me repeat this, sir.
17 Q. This Kovac order that you say you looked at for reaching this
18 determination, was it something that you found on your own or was it
19 something that was suggested or given to you by someone else from the
20 Office of the Prosecutor in this Tribunal?
21 A. Your Honours, as I said, and I just -- I have been working for
22 this case for Srebrenica case for so many years. You know, just through
23 this -- through these years I reviewed a lot of documents and I seen
24 these documents a lot of time. I do not remember whether it was
25 suggested to me not by somebody else to read this order or not. I
1 don't -- it could be also but really, I'm not catching this moment, but I
2 seen this -- this order not once, not twice, but many times, and
3 difficult for me to exactly to put the date when it was and how it
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't know, I take it that Mr. Ivetic will
6 accept that.
7 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
8 Q. Now, sir, in the reference to the many years that you were
9 working on the investigations for this case, the many documents that you
10 reviewed, did you ever come across the Law of Defence that was applicable
11 to Republika Srpska in 1995?
12 A. Your Honours, I never, as I said, you know, I never went into the
13 legal aspect of RS of the army at that time, I -- no. I didn't analyse
14 this law, at least.
15 Q. My question was did you come across the same?
16 A. I may have seen it but as I said, I didn't analyse it.
17 Q. Fair enough. Now I'd like to ask you the same question in
18 relation to the law of internal affairs that would have been in effect
19 for Republika Srpska in 1995 and specifically Article 14 of the law on
20 amendments and additions to the law of internal affairs from the
21 beginning of 1995 which dealt specifically with resubordination of the
22 MUP and which limited to combat and which specified that the MUP retain
23 their own chain of command within the police. Did you have occasion to
24 come across that law or references to the same as part of your
25 investigative work?
1 A. My answer, Your Honours, would be the same. Not just -- I seen
2 this regulation but I never analyse it.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to the Petrovic, or Pirocanac video
4 as you referred to it, and I think I will be talking about what has been
5 marked as P1538 and also now in different forms as P1541 and P1542. This
6 video from Mr. Petrovic, would you agree with me that all of the armed
7 persons in uniform that we saw and that you identified as being PJP or
8 Jahorina unit or Skelani unit and all the other Serbs in uniform in this
9 video are actually MUP police members rather than members of the VRS, the
10 ones that you identified?
11 A. Your Honours, this is correct. Most of the people we seen on the
12 Petrovic video they are coming from MUP. But there are few people also
13 that are members of VRS. At least I recognise one such member in Sandici
14 meadow. I interviewed this member of -- I remember he was the member of
15 Sekovici Brigade but he was present in Sandici meadow. If you are
16 referring to the army personnel who are there.
17 But most of the people recognised by us from Sandici and in
18 Potocari, they were members of MUP, special police brigade and PJP units.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in your direct examination at transcript
20 page 11.532, you talked about your efforts to go through and examine the
21 archives of the BiH Ministry of Defence in Banja Luka. First of all, I'd
22 like to know prior to being allowed to have the access to the archives,
23 did the Office of the Prosecutor have to send a written request for
24 assistance to the authorities of either BiH or Republika Srpska?
25 A. Your Honours, the first -- probably I wasn't clear enough but I
1 was not involved in the searching of the archive of MOD in Banja Luka.
2 They were my colleagues.
3 Regarding your questions, I believe they would send request to
4 MOD to have access to the archive.
5 Q. Thank you for clarifying. And could you tell us, did your
6 colleagues or associates who were actually involved in the search of the
7 archives have any difficulty in obtaining the co-operation of these
8 entities in order to gain access to the archives to search for documents
9 or material that was relevant to your work on the cases before the
11 A. I have no any information that they have any problems having
12 access to these archive in Banja Luka.
13 Q. In relation to your own investigative efforts and working with
14 people in the region, did you ever have any objections that you could not
15 have access to any archives or any documentation unless you as a
16 prerequisite prepared a Rule 54 bis submission?
17 A. Your Honours, through my work with ICTY, we try to locate Main
18 Staff archive. At the beginning we had really problem to locate the Main
19 Staff, VRS Main Staff archive. And we had also problem to locate for
20 example Drina Corps archive.
21 I remember in 2004, after -- after a lot of attempts or requests,
22 done mostly by my colleagues, investigators who tried to track the
23 location of these particular archives, we received information from RS
24 that they located Drina Corps archive on the territory of Serbia. It was
25 2004 as far as I could remember. And later on, after following our
1 requests, we received these archive. But I am pretty sure that -- I am
2 sure that we don't have entire archive. A lot of documents, especially
3 security documents are missing or at least we have no access to these
5 Q. Thank you, sir. And in that communication or efforts to locate
6 documents, were you ever advised by the authorities of either the BiH or
7 Republika Srpska that as a prerequisite to obtaining documents one had to
8 first file a Rule 54 bis motion?
9 A. Yes, probably yes.
10 Q. Probably or do you have definitive knowledge or are you guessing,
11 sir? I need to know only what you know, not what you're guessing.
12 A. Your Honours, I don't remember the particular request or
13 particular documents from either RS authority or Serbia authority
14 regarding the archive, but I believe so. Because later on in regards,
15 for example, with search done by Serbian authority in the house of
16 General Mladic, I remember such correspondence.
17 Q. Fair enough. Now, I want to move on to another part of your
18 testimony from direct examination and that can be located at transcript
19 page 11.526, and it was when we were talking about this Petrovic or
20 Pirocanac video which we now have as again P1538, P1541, and P1542 in
21 various forms.
22 And at that page it was mentioned by counsel for the Prosecution
23 that while a lot of this video is included in the separate video that has
24 been labelled as the Srebrenica trial video, not all of it has been
25 included, so I'd like to ask you: Did you have a role or do you have any
1 knowledge relating to the selection of portions of this Petrovic video
2 for inclusion in the so-called Srebrenica trial video?
3 A. Your Honour, I said that I am investigator involved in or
4 investigation -- in the cases related to Srebrenica events, but I am not
5 a part of Mladic teach as investigator. I am part of Karadzic team. I
6 believe these two videos are slightly different, about definitely Mladic
7 team, I didn't take the part in creating this trial video.
8 Q. Did you take part in creating the trial video in the Karadzic
9 case or any case?
10 A. Yes, I was consulted by my colleagues and even lawyers because as
11 I said, I've been working for this -- this case for ten years. I'm quite
12 familiar with the locations, with the events. But --
13 Q. And -- go ahead, finish.
14 A. But I didn't -- let's say, I was not such person who decided
15 which part of the video should be played or should be included in trial
17 Q. That was what I was getting at. Thank you for that, sir.
18 Now, I want to move along and I want to ask you about the shell
19 casing that you testified about in your direct examination as that part
20 of your testimony was not clear to me.
21 MR. IVETIC: So I'd like to call up what was marked at that time
22 as P1483 marked for identification. And with the assistance of the
23 Prosecution and the Sanction system, that would be the first item that I
24 had identified. And if we could fast forward to the time stamp of 19
25 minutes and 19 seconds, and we can just pause at that location as I do
1 not intend to rely upon the audio but just the visual image to remind the
2 witness of what we were talking about or what he was talking about the
3 other week.
4 19 and 19. If we could move forward a little bit. That's fine.
5 That's fine. Perfect.
6 Q. Now, sir, on the right-hand side of the screen there is this item
7 that you identified as a -- I believe a shell or shell casing. Now, I'm
8 confused because you I believe indicated that the right image was from
9 Mr. Petrovic's house in Belgrade. Was your testimony that this shell was
10 something that was alleged to have been recovered from Srebrenica?
11 A. Your Honours, no, this is not my testimony. I just said that
12 this shell casing was recorded by Mr. Petrovic, by himself whether it
13 happened before Srebrenica or after Srebrenica, probably after. And I
14 seen this shell casing by my own eyes, just when I met Mr. Petrovic first
15 time and he came to interview, to our Belgrade field office, we asked him
16 to bring also his original tape or roll tape recorded by him in these
17 days in Srebrenica area and Bratunac, Pervani road, whatever he recorded.
18 He said that the tape is still at his house, and then we asked him if he
19 agreed that we drove together to his house.
20 Being at his house, it happened that he showed me the casings.
21 He said, "Okay. This is the case also from the video." And I've seen
22 this personally. But I never mentioned and he never mentioned that this
23 is the shell case recorded in Srebrenica. I think he mentioned something
24 but definitely not Srebrenica, that he brought from one of his trips to
25 Bosnia or somewhere.
1 Q. Okay. Now -- thank you for clarifying that. We can remove the
2 image. I'm done with that aspect. Thank you again to Ms. Stewart for
3 assisting with that.
4 Now, another thing that you've mentioned in direct examination
5 was the edited version of the Petrovic Pirocanac tape that was obtained
6 or aired by Studio B and that is now marked as P1540 and it's an exhibit
7 in this proceeding.
8 Now, I want to ask you first of all that this Studio B station as
9 part of your investigations did you find out anything about who were the
10 owners or ran that Studio B TV station at the time in 1995?
11 A. Personally, I did not. I don't know whether my colleagues tried
12 to receive such information. I tried to locate at least the persons who
13 were mentioned by Mr. Petrovic as editors of this video.
14 Q. Thank you. And now one thing that I need you to clear up is did
15 the Studio B footage that you had referred to, and that would be again
16 P1540, did it come directly from the TV station itself to the Office of
17 the Prosecutor or from some other source? Can you tell us how it ended
18 up at the -- or in the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor?
19 A. Your Honour, I believe the first Studio B footage we received
20 from Mr. Borovcanin during his interview OTP conducted I believe it was
21 2002, and he provided us the VHS tape containing the -- these broadcasted
22 programme from Studio B, and I am aware also of another version of
23 Studio B material. It was handed over to us, to me personally by
24 Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, during his interview we conducted in 2006,
1 Q. Thank you, sir. And now the BBC video of the -- of -- BBC copy
2 of Mr. Petrovic's video which has now been marked and entered into
3 evidence as P1541, could you tell us how and when that came into the
4 possession of the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. I've checked our records and I found that the video was seized or
6 received from BBC. It was 2001 or 2002. But I have no more details,
7 information how we did it. Probably somebody from our team contacted BBC
8 and requested the tape. But in 2000 -- I joined Tribunal it was 2003. I
9 was not involved in this process.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if we could focus on the Studio B version of
11 the tape, that would be P1540 for just one more question. Can you tell
12 me was your office able to ascertain as to the providence of that
13 footage, of that clip, when it was that it was supposed to have been
14 aired by Studio B TV?
15 A. I am afraid that I am not understanding well your question.
16 Q. Let me rephrase it then. As part of your investigations, did you
17 ascertain when the edited Petrovic video would have been broadcast on
18 Studio B?
19 A. Your Honours, as I said during the interview with Mr. Petrovic,
20 he said that this material was broadcasted in Studio B on 17 July 1995,
21 but in fact I have some doubts. Definitely it was broadcasted, aired
22 in -- after Srebrenica operation, shortly after Srebrenica operation, but
23 if we look closely, very carefully, let's say Studio B editing materials,
24 especially the material we received from Mr. Borovcanin. At the end of
25 the -- this material, we see some information that this programme is
1 broadcasted on Saturday and Sunday. But at that at that time, Saturday
2 was 15 of July, Sunday was 16 of July. 17 July, it was Monday.
3 According to the calendar.
4 And Mr. Petrovic, Pirocanac, he returned to Belgrade on the 14 of
5 July. He wasn't sure at the beginning during his testimony. Later on
6 after analysing all the steps he agreed that it should be 14 or 15, but
7 he was convinced but that was on 17, but personally I think it was rather
8 Saturday or on Sunday. Either 15 or 16.
9 Q. Okay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question. You talk about several
11 dates. Have you considered the possibility that it was broadcasted on
12 more than one day?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours. I think there is information
14 after the documentaries ended in the Studio B broadcast, that this
15 programme is broadcasted Saturday and Sunday or this particular -- I
16 don't remember the hours but this these particular dates.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore it being broadcast on the 17th is not
18 necessarily inconsistent with an earlier broadcast on the 15th and/or the
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. You're correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. And just for purposes of finishing the loop, the last version of
24 the Petrovic video which we have had entered into evidence as P1542 which
25 has been described as the version that was seized by Beara which was
1 found in the Ministry of Defence archives, that came into the possession
2 of the OTP sometime after -- when did that come into the possession of
3 the OTP? Let's just keep it simple.
4 A. I believe I testified about it that during the search of the
5 archive in Banja Luka, I think it was in 2006, 2007, I do not remember
6 the date exactly, my colleagues scanned some documents including the
7 receipt signed by Colonel Beara and information from Colonel Milutinovic
8 about the tape allegedly in the possession of journalists from Belgrade,
9 Hadzihasanovic I think the name of the journalist lady is. And
10 following -- after finding these documents, I requested MOD for the tape.
11 Because the -- in these documents they were referring to particular --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you for a second. I gained the
13 impression that Mr. Ivetic primarily was interested to know whether many
14 years passed since it was broadcasted until the moment that you obtained
15 it. And I do understand from your answers that it was at least
16 anything -- ten years or more after it was broadcasted and that you
17 obtained it or -- Ms. Hasan.
18 MS. HASAN: In fact, it's not very clear to me because the video,
19 the Petrovic video from -- seized from Mr. Beara is not Studio B footage.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Ivetic apparently wanted to know,
21 and I'm not talking about which version, but the version he asked
22 questions about, that is the -- the ones seized or found in the archives,
23 whether that was many, many years after it was broadcasted. If that
24 is --
25 MR. IVETIC: Just the date, whatever the year. I'm just
1 interested in the year that they would have come into the possession of
2 the OTP. That's all I've been asking.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you need the exact year or would 2005,
4 2006, or 2007 be --
5 MR. IVETIC: That would be perfect.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: If that's what the witness knows.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So then if that's what you want to know, a
9 carefully - I mean focused - question would give that you information.
10 The document you obtained from the Ministry of Defence was that
11 many, many years, that is approximately ten years after 1995 when it was
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it is correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: It was 2007, 2008. I do not remember the date
17 JUDGE ORIE: More than ten years.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 Q. And now it will be clear why I've been asking about these dates.
21 Yesterday --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan is on her feet.
23 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry. It's still a bit confused. The video
24 that's seized, the Petrovic video that's seized from Mr. Beara, the
25 question relates to when it was broadcast and I'm not sure this video was
1 broadcast. It's just not clear. The problem is --
2 MR. IVETIC: My question was when did it come into the possession
3 of the OTP. I keep repeating that, but I can't make it any simpler.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. The confusion may be in which video
5 we're talking about.
6 You said video seized from Mr. Beara may not have been
7 broadcasted at all, Ms. Hasan, if I understand you well.
8 MS. HASAN: Well that's how I understood the question.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, I do not know.
10 Then for me, the video which was seized from Mr. Beara, is that
11 the same as the video you obtained from the Ministry of Defence and could
12 you give us the years for each, approximately.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, yes, we are talking about the same
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: But there is quite weird story. In fact, this
17 is -- this not material broadcasted, not edited material broadcasted by
18 Studio B. This is the copy of the raw material of Mr. Petrovic and the
19 copy of BBC, that same material. Whether this is BBC or Mr. Petrovic is
20 different story.
21 JUDGE ORIE: If you say even there may be some confusion. We are
22 talking about the same video. The same body, the same -- not same
23 content but the same cassette we are talking about.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. This is the same -- I requested
25 the MOD the tape seized by Mr. Beara. And we are talking about this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are talking about a tape which was first
3 seized and ended up in the Ministry of Defence and from the Ministry of
4 Defence was given to the OTP when they asked for it.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: But ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: For me this is in fact this is quite weird tape.
10 This tape contains the copy of Mr. Pirocanac, Petrovic, raw material
11 excluding let's say incriminating moments like Kravica warehouse, white
12 house in Potocari. But what was weird for me that on this tape, I don't
13 know whether somebody recorded later on the same tape or it can be
14 speculation, but on the same tape we have recorded two interviews
15 conducted by OTP by one of the -- by Erdemovic, Drazen, a member of 10th
16 Sabotage Detachment. On the same tape we received from MOD at the end
17 of -- first segment is his Petrovic material, then we have video of
18 interview conducted by OTP of Drazen Erdemovic; I think the first one was
19 from June 1996, and the third one is also interview conducted with the
20 same person but in April of 1996.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to understand what you are conveying to
22 us. That is that you are not convinced that the tape you received from
23 the Ministry of Defence really was the same tape as the tape they said
24 they had seized from Mr. Beara. Is that well understood?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I am not convinced.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So you leave the possibility open that what you
2 received is not exactly the same tape as they seized from Mr. Beara but
3 that it had been tampered with, changed, whatever word you would like to
4 use. Is that a right understanding of your testimony.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, this is right understanding
6 exactly. I am not convinced but definitely this tape was tampered
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, my client has asked to consult with
10 me. May I have leave to briefly consult with him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If he uses the volume of his voice low, you have an
12 opportunity to consult with your client.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's not a low volume.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, sir, again my whole litany of questions regarding the
19 various versions of the tape and when they arrived in the possession of
20 the Prosecution of this Tribunal is relevant because it's something that
21 we heard yesterday in court. At transcript page 12.223, your colleague
22 Ms. Gallagher testified that Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez of the Office of the
23 Prosecutor had captured the Petrovic video already in 1996 and had
24 provided screen captured photos to the BiH authorities at that time for
25 an investigation that they were performing on behalf of the ICTY. Based
1 on your knowledge and information, can this possibly be accurate?
2 A. Your Honours, I checked our records. I could find only the
3 records I referred to in -- just, I'm -- it could be that Jean-Rene had
4 in his possession or received somehow the Petrovic material, at least
5 part of this material.
6 Q. From what source?
7 A. As far as I know, it was only BBC at that time.
8 Q. And the BBC according to your records gave the video in 2001 or
9 2002 as you've testified?
10 A. This is what I remember, yeah.
11 Q. Okay. Now, also during your direct examination testimony you
12 mentioned that for purposes of preparing the road book which is P1539,
13 that you took GPS readings of various locations when you went out into
14 the field and you stated that you plotted these all on a map. Can you
15 tell me if these GPS co-ordinates that you took were in fact recorded in
16 written form?
17 A. Yes, I took some notes, of course in my notebook, and I recorded
18 these GPS readings because I use these GPS readings later on when I
19 returned to The Hague, and I sat together with my colleague from this map
20 unit, small unit, and we plotted these locations on the map using these
21 GPS readings.
22 Q. Do you know if these -- this list of GPS readings or co-ordinates
23 that you created was ever disclosed or provided to the Defence?
24 A. I don't know in fact. I am not sure. But I believe these
25 records still are accessible in my folder at least.
1 Q. Thank you, sir.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I believe we started the session at
3 11.00 so we are now at the break or one minute before the break. It
4 would be an appropriate time as I'm about to move to another topic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If this is the appropriate time for you, it is for
6 the Chamber as well.
7 Could Mr. Blaszczyk be escorted out of the courtroom.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break and we will resume at 20
10 minutes past 12.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 Meanwhile, I use the time to the extent the transcript may have
15 caused any confusion as what document is at the basis of P1537, it is
16 65 ter 5760 and not any other number that was mentioned in the
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, sir, earlier today, at temporary transcript page 34, you
22 were talking about the Sandici meadows in the Petrovic video and you said
23 that there was a person there that you saw from the Sekovici Brigade and
24 I want to -- and you had interviewed him and you knew him, et cetera, and
25 I'd like to ask you, sir, are we talking about the 2nd Detachment of the
1 Sekovici Brigade?
2 A. Your Honours, no. To -- I'm talking about VRS brigade from
3 Sekovici. I am talking about a member of Sekovici Brigade, VRS brigade,
4 2nd Detachment of the Sekovici Brigade is its police brigade. I am
5 talking about army brigade.
6 Q. Okay. Well, since our information is that there were no VRS
7 members present, I'd like for you to identify this individual so we can
8 actually do our investigation and check your information.
9 A. Yes, we can play part of the video, I can point out the person.
10 Q. Which -- give his identity. If you're familiar with him, that's
11 all I need, sir.
12 A. I can check my book.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, do you want to have a name? Is that?
14 MR. IVETIC: That's all I want, the name.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, the name is ... -- and let's be -- I
16 do not whether this person --
17 MR. IVETIC: Maybe we need to go in --
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- have a -- we go into private session for a
20 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Now I'd like to move to a different topic and to do so I'd like
24 to have shown up in e-court but not broadcast to the public
25 Exhibit P1477. And once that document comes up, if I can have page 2 in
1 both the English and the B/C/S versions. That's where we need to be.
2 There we go. And this is the Bratunac health centre log book.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, sir, about a proofing note which we
4 received on the 23rd of May, 2013, from the Office of the Prosecutor, but
5 first to refresh everyone else's recollection, on that very same day, 23
6 May, 2013, there was a discussion in court about this very same book and
7 whether the entries were time and date of the wounding or time and date
8 of the admission. And this was in relation to another witness. And this
9 was at transcript page 11.426 where the Chamber noted that the
10 Prosecution position that this was the times of admission was contrary to
11 the plain language of the actual text in the log book.
12 Now, I want to read to you, sir, what we received from the
13 Prosecution later that very same day in this proofing note. And I begin:
14 "Abeer Hasan proofed Tomasz Blaszczyk on 23 May, 2013.
15 Mr. Blaszczyk was shown the Bratunac health centre log ERN
16 0306-9839-0306-9839 and concluded that the time recorded under the 'date
17 of wounding' column is the time of admission of the patient to the health
18 centre in Bratunac. He based his conclusion on the two entries in the
19 Bratunac health log for," and I will not read the names since I believe
20 that was the reason why this was not broadcast by the Prosecution, "who
21 were wounded in the same incident related to Kravica and the time
22 recorded in that column, 1730 hours on 13 July, 1995, for "the first
23 individual, "and 1740 hours for" the second individual "on the same day.
24 Blaszczyk also noticed that the body of," and then we have the third
25 individual, "arrived at the Bratunac health centre at 1900 hours on 13
1 July, 1995. Based on the above, Blaszczyk that the time recorded under
2 the date of wounding column is the time of admission."
3 Now, sir does that proofing note accurately record what you told
4 Ms. Hasan coincidently just after the matter had been raised in court
5 with another witness?
6 A. Yes, exactly, this is what I said during our proofing session.
7 What I pointed out is this information to Ms. Hasan.
8 Q. Now were you following the testimony of RM316 in order to know
9 that this was a live issue and a part of the Prosecution case that needed
10 to be fixed?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we make it two questions?
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Were you following the testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, partially I am following the
15 testimony but I have no time to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No.
17 THE WITNESS: -- to follow entire processing, of course.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you follow the testimony when this point was
20 THE WITNESS: No. This particular part, no, I didn't.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did anyone then later come to you and say that this
22 is a matter which was discussed and that it was -- may have its own
23 problems? I'm not elaborating on it now. Was your attention drawn to
25 THE WITNESS: I do not remember. But having in mind who is the
1 witness, I may expect that it was disclosed.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the question was whether your attention was
3 drawn to the fact that this matter was discussed with the witness.
4 THE WITNESS: No. No. No.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
6 And for the record, Your Honour, that was the only item on the
7 proofing statement for this witness. So that stands for whatever it
8 stands for.
9 Q. Now I'd like to ask you, sir --
10 JUDGE ORIE: But then of course we should know what caused.
11 MR. IVETIC: I -- [Overlapping Speakers].
12 JUDGE ORIE: Was this a proofing session which covered --
13 Ms. Hasan, I'm asking a question to the witness.
14 Was this a proofing session which focused primarily on the matter
15 contained in the proofing note or was it an overall proofing session?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, I say in this way not just
17 because I am very familiar with my work product with this road book and
18 presentation, and in fact I brief Prosecutor about the public contents of
19 this presentation, and during this discussion, also this subject came up,
20 you know, just -- and I explained my view of the events including the
21 timing of wounding.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a very direct answer. Let me go through it
23 in some details.
24 You say you're familiar with your work product. Okay, that's
25 fine, with the road book and presentation. And in fact, I briefed the
1 Prosecutor about the contents of this presentation.
2 What is "this presentation"?
3 THE WITNESS: I'm referring to CD we just watched and also to the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you said during this discussion, also
6 this subject came up.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, because as you see in the
8 presentation, and in this book, this road book, we are talking about
9 Kravica warehouse and what happened in Kravica warehouse and there was
10 probably the question or discussion when it happened exactly, the timing
11 of these events. And I pointed out to Ms. Hasan that it should be
12 Bratunac health log book there is information also that the mention these
13 three persons who were involved in this incident in Kravica but the
14 timing, according to me admission, then to the Bratunac health centre is
15 different. But they were wounded in the same incident. Two of them were
16 wounded in the same incident, another one was killed in this incident.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Who raised that issue of the difference in times?
18 THE WITNESS: I believe I did. I did because as I said, you
19 know, I have been working for this case so many years and this particular
20 subject is quite really familiar to me. And we -- during the course of
21 our investigation we tried to establish exactly the time when execution
22 occurred, exact time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any earlier occasion where you have
24 pointed at these differences in time.
25 THE WITNESS: Definitely, Your Honour. It was well known to the
1 members of my team at least that people who used to work for Srebrenica
2 team sometime ago.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Why was it then necessary to raise it again as the
4 only subject matter which apparently found its way to the proofing note.
5 THE WITNESS: I think this part, this information sounded quite
6 new for Ms. Hasan and probably she decided to put in the proofing notes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did she tell you anything about the other witness
8 and the issue raised with that other witness.
9 THE WITNESS: No, she didn't.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 Ms. Hasan -- yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It seems there's been some sort of allegation of
13 misconduct here, and if that's the case I'd like for us to be able to
14 address it. We don't need to address it in front of this witness, but if
15 that's the case --
16 JUDGE ORIE: What happens, Mr. McCloskey, is there was -- some
17 questions were put by Mr. Ivetic which triggered a need to carefully
18 establish the facts which were apparently relevant for Mr. Ivetic and may
19 be relevant for the Chamber as well. That's simply facts. I didn't ask
20 for anything than facts, did I? As I usually try --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe there's some insinuation
22 of some -- that there's something improper about Ms. Hasan's asking
23 Mr. Blaszczyk about this subject --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers].
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and that's apparently where he's going, and I
1 don't see that there's anything improper about this. And if it's going
2 to be gone into further, I would like for us to be able to discuss it.
3 If that's not what's happening and I'm misreading this, I will sit down.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me say the following: The line of questioning
5 initiated by Mr. Ivetic required, in my view, and that's the reason why
6 to some extent I took over, a careful consideration of facts, first of
7 all, before you start thinking things Mr. Ivetic may have had on his mind
8 but then not expressed.
9 Mr. Ivetic, I think -- am I far wrong that it came to your mind
10 at least for a second that there may have improper behaviour but that you
11 also thought it important to know the facts before to further develop
12 those thoughts?
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and also --
14 JUDGE ORIE: And did I assist new that respect?
15 MR. IVETIC: You did assist me, Your Honour. And it also goes
16 towards the reliability and credibility of this witness and the motives
17 that he has to testify, and that's why I'm asking about the facts that he
18 knows and has access to, and that's I believe -- that was the focus of my
19 asking him and I have some additional questions in that regard that I
20 think will be relevant.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move on.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I'm not dreaming this up. He used
23 the word and suggested that this topic in this proofing note was a mere
24 coincidence despite that it being the question of the earlier witness,
25 and it was of course no mere coincidence and there's nothing wrong with
1 it so he -- I know what he's suggesting. And he's suggesting some sort
2 of impropriety.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, we'll move on.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, in relation to the knowledge that you say -- that either
6 we've talked about, that you have about the log book and what the actual
7 columns mean, did you at any point in time do any prior investigative
8 work to ascertain or confirm your view of what the columns on the log
9 book mean?
10 A. I personally not but I am aware that my colleagues did it.
11 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your testimony about -- or your
12 knowledge about the log book, you identify the first entry on the page, I
13 will not say the name because, again, it's my understanding that we're
14 not supposed to mention the names, and this individual is listed or
15 identified as a Red Beret member, and I believe that you -- well -- I
16 believe you mention that one member of the army was wound in this -- at
17 this location in Kravica -- at Kravica warehouse.
18 Am I correct that this unit with the designation of the
19 Red Berets had in fact been disbanded as a unit of the Bratunac Brigade
20 at some point in time prior to July of 1995?
21 A. I am afraid that you are wrong. That unit was disbanded but
22 after -- after events in July of 1995, and most of the people from these
23 Red Berets unit the -- unit were deployed as MUP members to Srebrenica
24 police station but after -- after -- I think it was sometime, if I could
25 remember, 14 or 15 of July 1995. Until then, the unit was the part of
1 the 3rd Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade and existed.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you gave rather specific information
3 today at transcript page 8 of the temporary transcript about the log book
4 or at least about the times when these individuals were admitted for
5 treatment apart from looking at the log book, so I'd like to ask you
6 if it -- first of all, is it correct that on 27 May 2013 after you took
7 the oath to testify and after you were instructed not to have contact
8 about your testimony that you received an e-mail from a fellow
9 Prosecution investigator giving precisely the substance of the meaning of
10 the times in this log book which you were advised to disregard by the
11 Office of the Prosecutor?
12 A. Yes, this is correct. I received an e-mail from my colleague,
13 and later on I -- immediately after the e-mail I received a telephone
14 from the Prosecutor advising me to disregard this e-mail and -- yeah.
15 Q. So what I need to know, sir, is did you receive the advice to
16 disregard this e-mail in time or did you in fact read this e-mail that
17 was sent to you after you had taken your oath?
18 A. Your Honour, I have to admit that I read this e-mail because I
19 received the e-mail I just read this e-mail and yeah, I read it.
20 Q. And would you agree with me the substance of this e-mail from
21 your fellow investigator is precisely the testimony as to when, what the
22 meaning of the times on this log book we are looking at is?
23 A. Yes, yes, but in fact it -- you have surprised me.
24 Q. Fair enough I'm just trying to get the facts, sir.
25 Now, I'd like to clarify them with you. At transcript page
1 11.587, lines 1 through 7, in talking about the killing of persons at the
2 Kravica warehouse, you say that the killings were done by the
3 Sekovici detachment of the police and probably one member of the army.
4 And first of all I want to clarify with you now, the Sekovici detachment
5 that you were talking about would be a MUP police unit; is that right?
6 A. If I am referring here to Sekovici detachment, I am referring to
7 the Special Police Brigade Sekovici Detachment, this is MUP unit.
8 Q. Okay. And now apart from the one individual who was wounded that
9 we've talked about that you said was a member of the Red Berets that you
10 claim was an army personnel, can you tell us what is the basis of your
11 assertion and testimony that probably one army soldier was present and
12 participated in the killings at Kravica? What would be the basis of that
14 A. Yes, except -- except these records from the Bratunac health
15 centre, you know, proving that one member of the army was present over
16 there, that he was wounded during this incident, we are in possession
17 also of statements of the witnesses who testified or were interviewed by
18 the state court in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A few of them, they were members
19 of the army in fact in Kravica Battalion, as far as I could remember.
20 And I do not remember now from the top of my head but at least one of
21 them was indicted by the state court, whether he was sentenced, I do not
23 Q. And so now I'd like to understand your previous testimony where
24 you said there was at least one -- excuse me, at least one VRS member
25 present and participating in the killings at Kravica. Would that one
1 member that you're talking about be the individual that's identified in
2 the health logs from the Red Berets or this other individual that you've
3 just now identified?
4 A. I think at that time when I was talking about it, I referred to
5 the member of the Red Berets. I base it also from my experience, from my
6 interview we conducted with the Commander of the Red Berets at that time,
7 and it was very visible that he wanted let's say to get rid of this --
8 this person, you know, from his jurisdiction, let's say, at this time.
9 He said during his interview that this person was not -- not very well
10 subordinated soldier and he went to Kravica on his own.
11 Q. Okay. Well that's a -- what I'd like to ask you about. Would
12 you agree with me that for purposes of your investigative work, that army
13 soldiers rarely operate individually and generally operate in units or
14 groups while performing army duties?
15 A. Yes, I agree.
16 Q. So then you cannot exclude the possibility that this soldier at
17 Kravica was indeed there for personal rather than official reasons.
18 A. I cannot exclude it because we have no proof that other members
19 of the Red Berets were present in Kravica at that time, at least we have
20 no such information.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, in relation to this incident at Kravica
22 warehouse, is it correct and did your investigation reveal that prior to
23 the killings taking place, there was an attempt by at least one detainee
24 to overpower the guards present and take the weapon of one of the guards
1 A. Well, Your Honours, our investigation revealed that this incident
2 with -- related to one guard who was killed by detainee, it happened.
3 But when it happened, this is still open question for me, in fact,
4 whether it happened because before that there was another killings took
5 place and whether this incident, this particular incident kind of
6 sparked, you know, just the following events it's just the killings of
7 entire people, you know, which were kept in Kravica warehouse. But
8 having looked at the Kravica warehouse itself, we know it -- has been
9 confirmed by belief that the people were kept and locked in the western
10 part of Kravica warehouse. We have two survivors, Your Honours, we have
11 survivor from the western part of Kravica warehouse and from eastern part
12 of Kravica warehouse. On the Petrovic video that broadcasted or the
13 redacted -- let's say portion from Kravica we see the bus in front of
14 Kravica warehouse and the pile of the bodies outside the bus.
15 We are convinced --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Blaszczyk, what you're doing at this moment, you
17 are giving a lot of context which, as I understand, is tending to
18 demonstrate that what the Defence suggests must be wrong and goes far
19 beyond what the question is. Because in the first two lines you have
20 answered the question already.
21 Therefore, let's proceed and try to carefully consider that
22 you're here as a witness to answer the questions and not to defend a
24 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. And now, sir, I'd like to ask you about something you just
3 testified about. You said at temporary transcript page 59, and I will
4 paraphrase, but you said that -- it still -- that when this incident
5 relating to one guard who was killed by the detainee, when it happened is
6 still an open question for you, and then you on to say, this particular
7 incident kind of sparked, you know, just the following events being the
8 killing of the entire people.
9 Which particular incident may have sparked the killing of the
10 entire people? Are we talking again about the incident where the guard
11 was overpowered and his gun was taken? Are we talking about that still
12 being an open issue?
13 A. Yes, this is correct. I am talking about the same incident.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, do you recall, sir, that at one point in the
15 video, and that would I guess be the Petrovic video which has the numbers
16 P1538, P1541, and P1542 at the moment, do you recall that at one point in
17 the video that as Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic are travelling and
18 talking about the locations that they're passing that a call comes in
19 through the radio that -- that they should come because something has
20 happened. Do you recall that segment of the video?
21 A. I recall conversation through the radio handset or car radio, but
22 there is no information that something had happened.
23 MR. IVETIC: Okay. With the assistance of the OTP I would like
24 to now play that video in Sanction, and I believe the time reference I
25 have is for P1538 which was 65 ter number 22422, and the segment at issue
1 is from 17 minutes and 25 seconds to 17 minutes and 55 seconds
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. IVETIC: If we can stop. And I note that the subtitles
5 appear to be a little bit behind the actual audio, but recorded is an NMG
6 on Motorola saying, "Come over, there's something."
7 Q. Does that refresh your recollection, sir, that in fact there was
8 a message received over the radio to come over, there's something?
9 A. Yeah, there was such message but I'm not sure if it was directed
10 to Mr. Borovcanin at that time because we see after this segment of the
11 video that Mr. Borovcanin is still in the area of Sandici. It lasted at
12 least few minutes. He didn't rush to wherever location.
13 Q. Okay. And did you perform any investigation to determine if in
14 fact this was linked to anything that was going on in the area?
15 A. If you ask whether we did ask Mr. Borovcanin during our interview
16 with him what does it mean, yeah, we did. We did. But what was his
17 answer, I do not remember from the top of my head now.
18 Q. Okay. That's fair enough.
19 Now, I want to move to a different topic but stay with the same
20 part of the video. I see now we are stopped at 17 minutes and 43
21 seconds. If we could continue playing from this point to -- well, the
22 entire segment is 21 minutes and 40 seconds, then I'll have some
23 questions about what we see here, sir. So again with the assistance of
24 Ms. Stewart and the Sanction system, if we could play it up until 21:40
25 on this video which is again P1538, the Petrovic raw original video.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. IVETIC: If we can stop here and we've stopped at 19 minutes
3 and 12.7 seconds.
4 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that at this point in the video
5 the gentleman that gave the figure of surrendered or captured persons
6 essentially also said that that number was exaggerated?
7 A. Yes, yes, he said so.
8 Q. Now I'd like to revisit some of your testimony from the first day
9 when I believe the same segment was shown although the remainder of it --
10 but for now I'd like to focus on this section. And that's at transcript
11 page 11.593, beginning at line 1, and I will read for you the selection:
12 "Q. Now he, he makes a reference to them having 3.000, that 3.000
13 to 4.000 have surrendered. In terms of that figure, and your
14 investigation, does that figure sound about right?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. During your investigation, review the statements of the
17 witnesses, and --
18 "A. Yeah, I believe that the figure is quite right. At this time
19 of day, 13th of July afternoon, that they may have about few thousand of
21 And that ends at line 7 of page 11.593. And the question I have
22 for you, sir, is what statements in evidence are you referring to in your
24 A. First of all, Your Honours, I am referring to the statements of
25 few survivors who were transported to Bratunac. They were kept in
1 Bratunac Vuk Karadzic school and then -- and also some people were kept
2 at the stadium and old school in Bratunac.
3 I am referring, Your Honour, also -- we have aerial images of --
4 from this period from 13 July 1995. On these aerial images, aerial
5 images of Sandici meadow, we have aerial images of Nova Kasaba soccer
6 field. For example, on Nova Kasaba soccer field we see or calculate that
7 at least about few hundred people kept at Nova Kasaba field. And as I
8 said, we interviewed quite many people, not only the survivors but also
9 the soldiers and MUP members of units who participated in this operation.
10 But I am not referring -- I didn't want to say that this 3.000
11 and 4.000 were actually surrendered to this person or person, no. I was
12 referring to general situation on the area.
13 Q. Now, I wanted to ask you a follow-up question, but first I have
14 to correct with you, you say you had aerial images from the period of is
15 it 15 July? Because we're talking about 13 July. The transcript
16 reflects 15 July, I don't recall if you said 15 or 13 to be honest.
17 THE WITNESS: I apologise for my pronunciations but it is 13
18 July, one three.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, so far you've told us about a couple hundred
20 people on a pitch on a soccer field. How do you get from that to 4.000?
21 Or is this the extent of the information that you have that leads you to
22 believe that this individual, his figure is accurate even though he's
23 said it's not, it's exaggerated?
24 A. Your Honours, as far as I remember, these aerial images from the
25 13 July 1995, one three, July 1995, about noon -- about 2.00, if I could
1 remember, but when Mr. Petrovic is in Sandici meadow there is already
2 about 5.00, three hours later. We have few hundred, about 1.000 people
3 in Nova Kasaba, let's say. We have few hundred in Sandici meadow. We
4 know also that in mean time lot of people were transported from Nova
5 Kasaba and from Sandici meadow to Bratunac and also to Kravica warehouse.
6 The total number, I'm not referring even to the people, you know,
7 just who were kept, for example, in -- at the stadium in Bratunac because
8 unfortunately we don't have such information -- detailed information. We
9 know that the people were kept there, there were many of them, but how
10 many of them we don't know.
11 Q. Thank you for clarifying that for me, sir.
12 Now earlier today at temporary transcript page 6 you were shown a
13 portion of the video, I believe, later on in this same video where you
14 talked of machine-gun fire and explosions being heard in the background
15 while the filming was going on in Sandici. Would you agree with me that
16 during this time, the 13th of July, 1995, that there was also shooting
17 and fighting going on in the surrounding areas of the forest between the
18 Bosnian Muslim column and the Serb forces which could also be the source
19 of the sound we heard in the video?
20 A. Your Honour, in fact there was a fighting but mostly the fighting
21 was concentrated during the morning hours, you know, just a few Muslims
22 tried to the road in the area -- yeah. That one leading from Bratunac to
23 Konjevic Polje and then from Konjevic Polje to Milici. But we don't have
24 any indication that fighting occurred, heavy fighting occurred in this
25 area on the afternoon 13 July 1995, especially in Sandici area, but we
1 have also in other statements, I believe testimony as well, one of the
2 MUP members who -- who is referring to -- in his statement, he's
3 referring to the shooting and explosions in Kravica warehouse. I
4 connected all this information together.
5 Q. Okay now. Let me see if I can understand your answer here. At
6 lines 10 through 11, you say:
7 "But we don't have any indication that fighting occurred, heavy
8 fighting occurred in this area on the afternoon 13 July 1995."
9 The question I have for you, sir, is: Are you talking about any
10 fighting or heavy fighting? Which is it?
11 A. I am talking about heavy fighting. We see the Praga along the
12 road shooting on the hills to the people who are passing through the
13 hills, but I don't see any reverse shooting from another side toward the
14 Serb soldiers, and we have no information that any fighting occurred in
15 the vicinity of Sandici meadow. At this time of day.
16 Q. Okay. Now, what about there being any fighting at 13 July, are
17 you saying that there was no fighting, no incoming fire from Bosnian
18 Muslim side on 13 July? Is that your testimony, sir?
19 A. No, I did -- no, I didn't say that there was no fighting.
20 Definitely there was fighting as well but not in the vicinity of Sandici
22 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you are not the counsel that examined
24 the witness. It's usual that if you intervene in a witness examination,
25 that it's done by counsel who has examined that witness. I don't know
1 what you want to tell us, but I just bring this to your attention.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and I understand and I try to do that as
3 infrequently as possible. We're in an unusual situation as I have just
4 been in another courtroom with a witness that has just provided some
5 information that I would -- on this topic that I would like to be able to
6 give to the Defence, because I think it's important for them to have it
7 and I just --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you give it to the Defence, that does not
9 necessarily mean that it should be brought to the attention of the
10 Chamber already at this moment. There is -- we have a bit of a rule that
11 if there's late disclosure that the Chamber should be informed about that
12 and apparently it is a disclosure issue, yes, and that rule says that if
13 disclosure is late - not to say that any party can be blamed for it being
14 late, but it may have arrived late - that the Chamber should be informed
15 about it immediately, which I find a rule which is perhaps a bit
16 questionable because if it is incriminating information, then I think it
17 would not be appropriate to bring it immediately to the attention of the
18 Chamber but then to bring it to the attention of the other party, in this
19 case the Defence first.
20 I suggest the following. Let's take an early break and disclose
21 whatever there is that's there to be disclosed. So I do understand that
22 you are acting as the responsible officer of the Prosecution with
23 disclosure obligations rather than a counsel who deals with a witness
24 examination at this moment.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and resume at 1.30 unless the
5 disclosure is so voluminous that you need more time, Mr. McCloskey, then
6 the Chamber will basically wait until disclosure issues have been dealt
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I just tell you -- I don't need to give you
9 the information but it's a very unusual situation. I don't think it's
10 necessarily late disclosure.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I'm just -- we take a break now and if
12 there's any reason to bring something to the attention of the Chamber, it
13 can be done after the break.
14 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
17 I'm looking at you, Mr. McCloskey, and of course the Chamber
18 becomes more and more curious what happened, but I don't know whether the
19 parties consider it relevant to bring it to the Chamber's attention.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is there any objection to that before we begin?
22 MR. IVETIC: There's not and I can put on the record that I don't
23 think there's any late disclosure as far as I'm concerned.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So since Mr. Ivetic agrees that it should be brought
25 to our attention, please do so.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was just cross-examining Mr. Borovcanin who had
2 just talked about this very issue that he was being cross-examined on,
3 the potential gunfire in the area, and I wasn't sure they'd been
4 watching. It turned out they had been and they had all the information
5 so it's no problem. But I wanted to get it to him as soon as possible
6 because he was in the middle of his cross-examination on that very point.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's appropriately dealt with. It's still
8 is late disclosure not because you were too late but it came very late
9 which I think under the Tribunal Rules is still late disclosure. That
10 means not before the start of the trial.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Sir, we left off talking about the 13th of July 1995 and the
15 issue of fighting in the area. I'd like to ask you about two things.
16 Before I get to the matter that I discussed with Mr. McCloskey, I would
17 like to ask you of something else that I know of independently. Did your
18 investigation reveal and demonstrate that in the morning hours of 13 July
19 sometime approximately between 4.00 and 5.00 in the morning precisely in
20 this area, about 500 metres from the Sandici meadows towards Konjevic
21 Polje, that in fact armed Bosnian Muslim fighters attacked Serb forces
22 and indeed inflicted casualties, two wounded policemen and one killed
23 policeman in the course of this combat initiated by the Bosnian Muslim
24 fighters precisely on the morning of 13 July 1995, 500 metres away from
25 these Sandici meadows, did your investigation reveal that, sir?
1 A. Yes, Your Honours. Our investigation confirmed that incident
2 took place in the early morning hours of the 13th of July, 1995, but it
3 wasn't even 500 metres from Sandici meadows, even less.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. And now, in the Petrovic video there is --
5 pardon me, in the Studio B video which is P1540, I believe that there's
6 also gunfire being heard there as the vehicle is passing the Kravica
7 warehouse; do you recall that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And it's been brought to my attention that a witness in the
10 Karadzic case, Mr. Borovcanin himself, testified yesterday that that
11 gunfire he believed was the result of ongoing combat in the hills. Now,
12 I'm not too concerned about Mr. Borovcanin. He's not here to testify on
13 this matter. I want to ask you about your -- your investigative work.
14 Can you either confirm or deny that assertion that there was gunfire
15 going on as a result of ongoing combat in the hills even at that time as
16 the vehicle was passing, the vehicle where Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic
17 was passing the Kravica warehouse on the 13th of July, 1995?
18 A. I cannot confirm, either confirm or deny any fighting happened in
19 this area when the vehicle was passing Kravica warehouse, but definitely
20 it wasn't heavy fighting. At least I have not any information that it
22 Q. Let me ask you this, do you have any information as the result of
23 your investigation and your many years working on this matter, do you
24 have any material that would tend to indicate that there was heavy
25 fighting and in fact heavy casualties resulting from the fighting in the
1 days leading up to this time period, that is the days preceding 13 July
3 A. Yes, the previous question I was referring to this time of day
4 but yes, yes, definitely in this area, was heavy fighting also conducted
5 by the column and VRS units.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to look at another portion
7 of this same video and that would be P1538 again for the record. And
8 this is a part that is not -- I should say that was not dealt with in
9 detail in your road booklet which is P1539 but I think it is relevant and
10 it has been introduced now as part of the video:
11 Do you recall later on this film there's a segment I believe from
12 the 14th of July, 1995, when there is some footage and some interviews
13 taken of returning Serb refugees returning to their ransacked apartments
14 in Srebrenica town itself?
15 A. Yes, I recall this part of the video.
16 Q. And again with the assistance of the Prosecution and the use of
17 the Sanction system, I would like to show a segment of this video which
18 is again P1538. And this will be the section from 30 minutes and 24
19 seconds to 34 minutes and 12 seconds, and I see now that we have it.
20 And, sir, I'd ask that you follow along and then I'll have some
21 questions about this after we view this clip, so we can be -- start it
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. IVETIC: Stop there, please. And for the record we stopped
25 at 34 minutes and 11.3 seconds of this video.
1 Q. Now I want to take this chronologically, sir. At the beginning,
2 first we had the one woman that's now visible on the screen in the blue
3 shirt talking about killings that had occurred in the years prior when
4 her husband was taken away and their children were killed by the
5 Srebrenica defenders, the Muslim side. And this individual is talking
6 about 23 members of his family having been killed and slaughtered. I
7 want to ask you, did your investigative work into this area involve
8 verifying or investigating any of these matters that were raised by these
9 individuals interviewed on this video that we just reviewed?
10 A. Your Honours, I was a member of the team investigating the events
11 following the fall of or the liberation of Srebrenica. The crimes
12 committed by the Serbs forces on the Muslim population. I was a member
13 of this team. My colleagues, my investigative colleagues who used to
14 work for another team, we called that at that time team 9, they
15 investigated the crimes committed by the Muslim forces on the Serb
16 population in this area. But we were not involved in this investigation.
17 We are aware that these crimes happened, occurred, but we are not
18 involved in this investigation. I mean me personally.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. And now I'd like to talk about the individual
20 that we saw who is now visible just on the right to the screen that was
21 interviewing by the name of Ratomir Marjanovic. Would you agree with me
22 that although he was still in his army uniform when giving the interview,
23 he appears to be engaging in personal tasks relating to his damaged
24 property in Srebrenica rather than carrying out any official army
25 function pursuant to any army orders at the time that he was being
2 A. Yes, yes, I would agree with you.
3 Q. And if we were to focus on what he was telling the interviewer
4 here, that he had spent 14 days and 14 nights at his position prior to
5 coming there, did that accord with your investigation that in fact the
6 action in that area was so intense that Serb soldiers might have to be
7 alert and at their positions at the front lines for up to two weeks
8 straight before getting leave?
9 A. I do recall from which this battalion this Marjanovic belonged
10 to, but we know that Srebrenica operation or VRS operation started around
11 6th of July, 1995. We can easily calculate it. Take about eight days,
12 five days, let's say, to the fall of Srebrenica. Of -- if -- his unit, I
13 do not recall right now, you know, from the top of my head, you know,
14 which unit he belonged to, but I can easily check it.
15 Q. I'd like to focus on the remainder of what he discussed and I
16 think for our purposes it's probably easier to follow the transcript of
17 the video than to replay the portions of the video with subtitles, so I'd
18 like to call up now the transcripts of this video which is again P1538 in
19 e-court. And in the English, it will be page 19 and in the Serbian it
20 will be page 21 of the transcript.
21 And, sir, if you could follow along with me while we wait for the
22 Serbian version. The part that I'd like to focus on begins at just under
23 the halfway point of the page and begins, "It took three to four days."
24 And in the B/C/S, it is the approximately the fifth line from the bottom
25 of the B/C/S transcript, and I will read from the English, sir, so that
1 we can have exactly the parts that I'm talking about. I begin, so:
2 "Ratko Marjanovic: It took three to four days, the driving out.
3 "ZPP: And how long have you been on the positions?
4 "Ratko Marjanovic: 14 days and 14 nights non--stop.
5 "ZPP: In which direction did you chase them?
6 "Ratko Marjanovic: In the direction of the positions in Kvarac,
7 then Kozarici, Vidikovac, Bojna and Zanik, Solucusa, and so on."
8 Now, sir, looking at the geographic locations that this person
9 has identified, does that perhaps refresh your recollection as to what
10 armed formation this gentleman would have been a member of engaged in
11 combat with the Bosnian Muslim forces during the time period specified?
12 A. I think he could be the member of the 2nd Battalion of the
13 Bratunac Brigade, but I am not 100 per cent sure.
14 Q. That's fair enough, sir. That's fair enough. I'd like to
15 continue and I have some more questions. So we -- to continue where we
16 left off which is the approximately third line from the bottom in English
17 and then we'll go on to the next page when we get there. It goes as
19 "ZPP: Was it difficult?
20 "Ratko Marjanovic: Yes, it was difficult. It was difficult and
22 "ZPP. I bet you killed a lot of their soldiers.
23 "Ratko Marjanovic: Well yes, we did."
24 And I'd like to end there for a moment and ask you this question:
25 Sir, did you run across during your investigations that as a result of
1 the heavy fighting and combat between the Serb forces and the armed
2 Bosnian Muslim column in the days leading up to the 14th of July, 1995,
3 that there were in fact many Bosnian Muslim soldiers or fighters killed
4 in this combat during this time period?
5 A. Yes, during the course of our investigation we established that
6 some Muslims were killed during the time when the column tried to get to
7 free territory. It was since 11 up to 16 July 1995. But as you -- may
8 I, Your Honour?
9 This is 14 July 1995, we see this member in Srebrenica. I know
10 during the action of Srebrenica, there was not much in fact casualties
11 from both sides, you know, just from Muslim side and if -- from the
12 Serbian side, but later on, only during the trip that column took into
13 the free territory, there was fighting and there was some casualties.
14 How many, we don't know.
15 Later on, we collected some information from the surface remains.
16 Q. Now, sir, you're talking now about Srebrenica. Am I correct that
17 this gentleman is talking about fighting that was going on in these
18 locations leading up to that time period and were there casualties from
19 fighting going on in Kamenica and these locations if not Srebrenica town
21 A. Yes, I understand, but this location as far as I remember from
22 the map, because there are small hamlets if -- in fact, they are not far
23 from Srebrenica.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, you say that your investigation did reveal that
25 there were casualties but you don't know how many. I understand that you
1 can't give a specific figure, but did your investigations reveal that in
2 fact up to perhaps several thousand casualties may have resulted from the
3 combat that was going on in the surrounding hamlets and the forests in
4 the days from the 11th July through 16th July, 1995?
5 A. Definitely. We cannot talk about thousand casualties, you know,
6 just during these combat operations, just the people killed during the
7 combat. No way. It could be hundreds but ...
8 Q. So if you have no idea, then how can you say it can't be a
9 thousand, sir? What's the basis of your very firm affirmation that it
10 can't be a thousand. Could you give me the evidence for that, sir?
11 A. Okay. I can -- I will try to explain you, Your Honours. This --
12 the path which was taken by column to reach the free territory, it was to
13 the hills. Most of this area was heavy mined, in fact. I do not believe
14 and we have no indication that after the combat was over, after 16, 17
15 July, 1995, any organisation, whatever, whether it was -- there was the
16 MUP units or whether it was municipality, whatever, restoration units,
17 local units, they collected any bodies in this area because it would be
18 too much dangerous, you know, just to go to this area to collect the
19 bodies, you know. They left the bodies over there.
20 After that, after some time later on, I know that it took some
21 time after the war, in fact, you know, just the bodies were collected
22 by -- by the commission of the missing persons. I cannot give you the
23 figure, you know, just exactly how many but I think about few hundred
24 along this path which was used by the column. I believe they were
25 casualties of the combat.
1 Q. And the individuals whose bodies may not have been picked up as
2 you say, would those not be casualties? Would those not be people that
3 would be missing but who died under circumstances that are not what we're
4 here for today?
5 A. The bodies which were not picked up, you know, that they were
6 casualties but they were casualties of the combat operation, I don't
7 believe that they were casualties of mass executions.
8 Q. Okay. And in relation to the -- we've been talking about the
9 area near Srebrenica, is it also correct that during this time period,
10 there was also some fighting going on on the territory of Zvornik
11 municipality where a Bosnian Muslim attack occurred such that there would
12 also be Bosnian Muslim combat fatalities or casualties on that territory.
13 Do you have information about that?
14 A. Yes, yes, we are aware that there was a heavy fighting in the
15 Zvornik area.
16 Q. Okay. And with relation to these bodies that would have been the
17 result of combat casualties both on the Zvornik municipality and on the
18 Srebrenica or Bratunac municipal area, would it not have been -- would it
19 not have been standard procedure for those bodies to have been recovered
20 and buried in joint graves or communal graves according to your
21 understanding of the existing procedures that are applicable during a
22 time of war as to asanacija or sanitation of the terrain or do you not
23 know about that?
24 A. Yes, definitely the bodies were recovered later on and put in the
25 graves, but we are talking about 30 different graves. We are not talking
1 about the mass graves where we found the victims of mass executions.
2 Q. Well, sir, I would point to you that RM316 has given testimony in
3 this courtroom in that same chair that in fact we are talking about some
4 of the same bodies. Do you have any investigation that?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, you'd like to have a source?
6 MS. HASAN: Sorry, for the witness, I'm not sure he knows who
7 RM316 is. And if there is a source for that, that would be very helpful.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. IVETIC: I think we to go into private session.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the witness should know, my recollection
11 doesn't serve me well enough to know whether it is public knowledge, but
12 if you have a source, Mr. Ivetic, then.
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I believe that was a protected witness and I
14 believe that we would have to then go into private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If you first give us a --
16 MR. IVETIC: 23 May 2013, the same witness who talked about in
17 the Bratunac log book.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I mean page number.
19 MR. IVETIC: I'm trying to do that, Your Honours. My LiveNote
20 doesn't co-operate sometimes.
21 MS. HASAN: I believe the witness Mr. Ivetic is referring to is
22 RM306 and not RM316.
23 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. That is correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then for the time being, you may proceed. We'll try
25 to find the source.
1 MS. HASAN: I think the witness should know who he's being
2 referred to, whose evidence he's being referred to at the very least.
3 MR. IVETIC: I would be more than happy to if we do it in private
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we would have to move into private session, and
6 again I cannot say at this moment whether that is something the witness
7 should know but let's move into private session.
8 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, it's my understanding that there was also some heavy
24 fighting going on the 12th of July, 1995, between the armed Bosnian
25 Muslim faction and the Serb forces. Are you familiar with that, sir?
1 If I can perhaps direct you, I believe it's Ravne Buljim was the
2 location where that -- Ravne Buljim was the location where that fighting
3 would have occurred on that date. Does that ring a bell?
4 A. Yes, yes. It was on the part of the column and the people were
5 passing through this area, Ravne Buljim, and there was a fighting, heavy
6 fighting, yes, it's correct.
7 Q. Based upon your investigation, were there also heavy casualties
8 as a result of that heaving fighting on the 12th of July, 1995, at
9 Ravne Buljim?
10 A. There were some casualties, quite many, but how many, definitely
11 not hundreds.
12 Q. Now as to those casualties quite many, what happened to those
13 bodies? Did they also get put into graves? Are they still there? What
14 did your investigation reveal?
15 A. If you are talking about mass graves containing the bodies from
16 the mass executions, I don't think that these bodies were put in these
17 graves, but I think they were collected later on after the war -- after
18 the war was over.
19 Q. Have you found any evidence that these bodies were buried
20 elsewhere apart from those mass graves?
21 A. Me not but I think I believe my colleague who probably will
22 testify in this case as well in relation to the mass graves and the
23 victims, he may tell more about how many bodies were found where and what
24 kind of the bodies, but I do not recall enough from the top of my head.
25 I should refer to some documents.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But I don't have in front of me, of course.
3 Q. So as you sit here, you are unable to give us concrete evidence
4 for the testimony that you gave that these bodies were not buried in the
5 mass graves together with those that were part of the executions?
6 A. Yes, is correct.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could return very briefly to what
8 Mr. Marjanovic was saying and now we're still on the same page in both
9 versions on this e-court. If you could follow along with me, sir, we
10 left off where Ratko Marjanovic was saying as follows:
11 "Well, we aren't going to do anything because all that is left --
12 and this needs to be smothered, all the others who stayed because we
13 don't trust them anymore. We'll never trust them again. They killed and
14 slaughtered 23 people in my family.
15 "ZPP: 25?
16 "Ratko Marjanovic: 23. Do you want to know my name? Soldier
17 Ratomir Marjanovic. Thank you."
18 Did your investigation into the events reveal that in fact there
19 were a lot of people in the area who, like this individual, would be able
20 to express great distrust and have these hard feelings against those that
21 wronged them that killed -- to the Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica that
22 would have killed and slaughtered members of their family in the
23 intervening years prior to the fall of Srebrenica. Did your
24 investigation reveal that such sentiments were very common among the
25 local population both civilian and otherwise of the areas around and in
2 A. Yes, you're right. The war lasted there since 1992 up to 1995.
3 Both sides committed crimes, also the Muslim side and the Serbian side.
4 I'm not surprised that the Serbian population was in such mood, yeah.
5 Q. And would you agree with me that it would be entirely possible
6 and even plausible for individuals, be they army, police, or civilian to
7 leave from their official duties as a result of what their personal
8 family has suffered and to entirely, for personal insecurities and
9 sufferings extract revenge upon detained Bosnian Muslims even while still
10 wearing their uniforms?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it's not for the first time that you ask
12 a witness whether he agrees with and then follows a full story of all
13 kind of events where if I were a witness, even at the end I would not
14 know what was contained in that story to which I'm supposed to say yes or
16 I think it would be wiser to split it up in smaller portions.
17 That would assist the Chamber.
18 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now for this part, Mr. Blaszczyk, you are reading so
20 you have perhaps had the time to reread the question.
21 THE WITNESS: I understood -- Your Honours, I understood Defence
22 counsel that he want to say that all the killings was done by the local
23 population who were let's say upset by -- by the activity of the army of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina or the members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
25 crimes committed --
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. What he's asking you as a matter of fact
2 not for facts but about your personal judgement. Apart from that is what
3 we -- but he asked you whether you consider it possible or even plausible
4 that this was the case.
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, it's possible that some individuals
6 took part in the killings, the private one, individuals, but these
7 prisoners were in the custody of the army of Republika Srpska and in the
8 custody of Serbian police.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you consider it still possible for those -- I do
10 understand your answer that you don't find it plausible for that
11 category. You still consider it possible because then you have answered
12 the questions put to you by Mr. Ivetic?
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I believe that some individuals took
14 the part, you know, in the pedantry from the army and police in few
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Q. And in reference to Kravica you said there was one member of the
19 army. Don't you think that that would potentially be more plausible of
20 an explanation for that incident, that this individual was there for
21 personal reasons rather than for any official capacity?
22 A. I never said that this member of this army was there in official
23 capacity as sent by his commander over there. We know that he was there
24 and possibly that whatever happened over there, he did on his own. But,
25 Your Honour, we have another document. I think this document is from the
1 Bratunac Brigade. This document is related to this particular
2 individual, to the Red Beret member, when there is description how he was
3 wounded. I think in this document, there is information that he was
4 wounded during the escorting the prisoners to Kravica warehouse. This is
5 official military document, and I believe this document is showing us
6 that he was in somehow in capacity of official duty in Kravica.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic --
8 THE WITNESS: This is my understanding, at least.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. I need two
10 minutes with the parties further.
11 MR. IVETIC: I have one question left.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the last question --
13 MR. IVETIC: It is.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- then put it to the witness, please.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, having reviewed the Petrovic film, all versions, I presume,
17 multiple times, can you confirm for me that General Mladic does not
18 appear anywhere on any versions of the films for Mr. Petrovic?
19 A. Yes, I can confirm it.
20 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
22 Ms. Hasan, how much time would you need if any for
24 MS. HASAN: In fact, I don't think I will need any time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You don't need any time.
1 Since the Chamber also has no further questions for you,
2 Mr. Blaszczyk, I'd like to thank you for coming to this courtroom and for
3 having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and
4 by the Bench and you are excused. You don't have to close your eyes for
5 e-mails any further.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The matter I would like to briefly deal with is the
10 e-mail which was raised with the witness. The Chamber has been copied on
11 a message sent by Mr. Groome in which the matter is presented as
12 Mr. Blaszczyk being inadvertently copied on an e-mail, that's how it was
13 presented to in that e-mail.
14 Now, in the questions Mr. Ivetic put to the witness, he gives a
15 rather different picture where he said that after the witness had been
16 instructed not to have any contact about his testimony, that you received
17 an e-mail from a fellow Prosecution investigator giving precisely the
18 substance of the meaning of the times in this log book which you were
19 advised to disregard by the Office of the Prosecutor.
20 Now, it's not entirely clear to me at this moment now what was in
21 that e-mail? Did it say disregard it? Then it is not an inadvertent
22 copying of information to the witness. Therefore -- and as the parties
23 may understand that intervening with the testimony of a witness, if it is
24 intentionally, may be a very serious matter.
25 Now, therefore, could the parties in one or two words tell us
1 what it now was? Was any instruction given to the witness or was there
2 any direction given to the witness or was it really an inadvertent
3 copying of e-mails that were sent to others?
4 MR. IVETIC: I think I can very quickly say I think it was
5 inadvertent and that's the information that was given to me. I was
6 advised immediately of it and that the instruction was given as a
7 preventative measure to -- for him not to read the e-mail, but as we
8 heard now, which was the part of the story that was missing, he actually
9 had read the e-mail.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Which you advised to disregard, therefore means that
11 is the follow-up. You see you do it in one sentence. You say you
12 received a e-mail from a fellow Prosecution investigator giving precisely
13 the substance of the meaning of the times in this log book which you were
14 advised to disregard by the Office of the Prosecutor. Now that is
15 ambiguous language. I do understand that you're referring to a second
16 e-mail in which the witness was advised to disregard what he read in the
17 first one. Is that?
18 MR. IVETIC: According to the witness's testimony, a phone call,
19 not a second e-mail, Your Honour, and again I was surprised that he had
20 not brought it up. And earlier today, he actually started testifying
21 about this and I would have expected a witness to say, in all due candor,
22 that I did have this situation come up and I read the e-mail but I know
23 this information otherwise, and that's why I went into that area of
24 questioning because today he testified about --
25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers]
1 MR. IVETIC: And didn't bring it --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what I ask you at this very moment but --
3 are the parties willing to provide a copy of the first e-mail to the
4 Chamber so that we at least can form an opinion about how serious the
5 situation is? Apart from --
6 MR. IVETIC: If I could suggest the information report. I
7 presume Mr. McCloskey has that. I have no objection to that being shown
8 and that's what I was relying upon. I think that [Overlapping Speakers].
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's not evidence in the case.
10 MR. IVETIC: Right, right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's merely to form an opinion about whether
12 something serious came to us today or whether it was just negligence
13 which should have perhaps been avoided but ...
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've got these which I think you should have and
15 I can try to tell you my recollection of it. I would probably -- well,
16 negligence may be better a term now that I -- what happened was the issue
17 came up with whether the log was -- admittance time or not during one of
18 the witnesses, so in proofing Mr. Blaszczyk, we asked him, do you know,
19 is it admittance time or time of wounding, and he said he thought it was
20 admittance time. So he sent -- that's the proofing note that we sent.
21 This was of course before he testified.
22 Then we also asked someone from the field office to go to the
23 health centre and ask the source and it was at -- my recollection is that
24 we got an e-mail from the field office people giving us the answer to the
25 question. That was sent to a few people including Ms. Gallagher and
1 Ms. Gallagher copied Mr. Blaszczyk on it which is I believe while he was
2 on the witness stand, and I saw that he was copied on that. And so I
3 called him up immediately and said disregard that e-mail because we knew
4 it was an interesting question. The Court had questions. The Defence
5 had questions. And that's probably why Mr. Blaszczyk didn't deal with
6 the topic when he was testifying about it.
7 And we spoke to Ms. Gallagher and said please, do not communicate
8 with people that are on the witness stand, especially about things that
9 might be of a topic.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: To start with, the Chamber would like to receive a
12 copy of the relevant e-mail and that of course is not evidence in this
13 case what is said, if you [Overlapping speakers] provide it.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. I think that would help clear things
15 up, and I think I have all of them right here.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you would then give them to the usher then.
17 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honour. That's fine. I would
18 support that procedure.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You're fully informed about the content.
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes. And I believe that Mr. McCloskey has
21 accurately recited this incident as far as my knowledge of it is
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's 20 minutes past 2.00. I don't know how
24 much time it takes that document to reach the 7 metres to us but --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Would you like to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you would like to give it later today. I mean,
2 we can leave with it not having it received until 4.00 or 5.00 or Monday
3 morning. We just want to have a look at it.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. And would you like the proofing note
5 as well?
6 JUDGE ORIE: We are not specifically interested in it, but if you
7 think it that it would clarify if the parties have any strong feelings
8 about it, no problem.
9 MR. IVETIC: I have no problem with that being provided as well.
10 I leave it in Mr. McCloskey's discretion.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And just one last, the issue related on the other
13 issue related to Mr. Borovcanin, I learned that during the redirect
14 examination a couple of hours ago while I was leading that examination.
15 It wasn't yesterday. So I think the answer is try to stay in only one
16 courtroom during one day.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Belocation [Realtime transcript read in error "relocation."] Is
19 not an easy thing even for professionals. If that is a -- it says
20 "relocation" but I said belocation, I don't think whether it's an
21 existing word in English, but being at two places at the same time.
22 That's what I want to refer to. We will receive that document through
23 the appropriate channels.
24 Ms. Hasan, any?
25 MS. HASAN: I just simply wanted to raise that there is one
1 document that was MFI'd. We can deal with it on Monday morning --
2 [Overlapping speakers] to the testimony.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do that because we are already -- I have
4 already asked too much from interpreters and transcribers and all of
5 those assisting us. Therefore at the end of this week, I thank all those
6 for always having so much patience with us and we adjourn for the day and
7 we'll resume Monday, the 10th of June, at 9.30 in the morning in this
8 same courtroom I.
9 ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Monday, June 10th, 2013,
11 at 9.30 a.m.