1 Monday, 10 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The Chamber was
10 informed there was a preliminary issue to be raised.
11 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
13 MS. HASAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
14 Yes, just before we stray too far away from Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony
15 there was a couple of corrections to the transcript I wanted to make
16 particularly because we switched the transcript for the Petrovic video
17 into a new one, and so what I had initially read in the transcript for
18 that have now been changed. Specifically at T1 --
19 JUDGE ORIE: What date are we, Ms. Hasan?
20 MS. HASAN: This would be from his testimony on the 24th of May.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 24th of May. I'm on the 24th of May. Page number?
22 MS. HASAN: Transcript page 11548, lines 15 to 18.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm with you.
24 MS. HASAN: Okay. The correct transcript references are page 1
25 to page 2 in the English and B/C/S.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Yes.
2 MS. HASAN: Then again on transcript page 11592, there was a
3 discussion about -- on the video with a soldier stating that 3.000 to
4 4.000 prisoners had surrendered, again I gave a reference there, and the
5 correct transcript pages are page 12 in the English transcript and
6 page 13 in the B/C/S transcript.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. I'm at 11592 and we are at what line,
8 Ms. Hasan?
9 MS. HASAN: I have to check the exact line. I don't believe I
10 have that right line.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 3.000 to 4.000, surely it is, I read there and
12 you said 12 and 13, I see -- let me see. Perhaps -- no. The 3.000
13 appear on the next page as well. I don't see any page references in the
14 whole of that.
15 MS. HASAN: I can find that reference and provide it through
16 Ms. Stewart.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would please do so. The previous one,
18 by the way, if it is page 1 and 2 and we find in the transcript it's
19 page 1, then it's not too difficult for those following the proceedings
20 that after 1, 2 follows. So therefore, I don't know whether there was a
21 need to have that corrected, but for 11592, please have a look and see
22 whether there is a need to have it -- anything to be corrected. Yes.
23 MS. HASAN: Finally, there is Exhibit P1483 that was MFI'd. It
24 was the split screen comparison between --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Where are we and what page, or is it just the --
1 MS. HASAN: I'm sorry, I don't have the page for that. It was an
2 exhibit that was MFI'd during the course of Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony on
3 the 24th of May.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. HASAN: That's not a correction to the transcript. In fact,
6 it's just I'd like to offer that in. Mr. Ivetic had initially wondered
7 about the description in e-court to that video. Okay. So we've got the
8 transcript page 11536.
9 JUDGE ORIE: One second, 11536, that's still the 24th of May.
10 I'm with you on that page. We have 14 -- let me see. Could you take us
11 to a line -- because I see at the end of 536 I see a reference to P1482.
12 MS. HASAN: Okay. It was offered into evidence at transcript
13 page 11535, at line 10, and then the discussion continues, as
14 I understand, to 11536. It doesn't relate to the transcript itself. In
15 fact, there is nothing incorrect in the transcript. It's simply --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You say it was marked for identification after
17 Mr. Ivetic. I'm just wondering -- are there still any objections,
18 Mr. Lukic, or would you like to consult Mr. Ivetic on the matter?
19 MR. LUKIC: I would rather consult with my colleague.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then hear from you in the course of this
21 day or tomorrow.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Not later than by tomorrow.
24 Ms. Hasan, anything else?
25 MS. HASAN: No, that's everything. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan. Then if there is nothing
2 else, Mr. Shin, at least you're behind the lectern so I suppose that it
3 will be you. Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness, which
4 I do understand is Mr. Pepic?
5 MR. SHIN: Yes, indeed. Good morning, Mr. President. Good
6 morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution is ready for its next witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
8 I do understand that Mr. Pepic is accompanied by counsel, and I take it
9 mainly for any matter related to Rule 90(E).
10 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct, Your Honours, and I take it then
11 we won't need to remind -- the issue of providing the Rule 90(E) caution.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that we will verify with counsel whether
13 he has discussed the matter with his client.
14 MR. SHIN: Yes, of course.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pepic. Can you hear me in a
17 language you understand?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
20 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
21 Could I invite to you make that solemn declaration? Mr. Usher?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: MILENKO PEPIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pepic. Please be seated. Mr. Pepic,
2 you're assisted by Mr. Petrovic as counsel. He's not there to be
3 consulted for answers to questions. He's there in order to intervene, if
4 need be, if there is a risk that by answering a question truthfully that
5 you would incriminate yourself and how to proceed on from that moment.
6 Has he explained to you the Rule, the relevant Rule, which is Rule 90(E)?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can proceed. You'll first be examined by
9 Mr. Shin. Mr. Shin is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find him to
10 your right.
11 Mr. Shin, please proceed.
12 MR. SHIN: Yes, and just before we begin, I'll just briefly
13 introduce my learned friend, Mr. Vladimir Petrovic, who may be known to
14 Your Honours. And Mr. Petrovic had indicated that he may wish to raise
15 some preliminary matters, so I will give -- pass the mic to him right
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, if there is any matter you want to
18 raise, you first have to consider whether it is appropriate to do it in
19 the presence of Mr. Pepic because any guidance which might be -- might
20 be -- might be understood to be in the matter you want to raise is
21 inappropriate. So please tell me whether you think you can raise the
22 matter in the presence of your client.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that I can,
24 since it's just a question of a few principled matters. If you permit
25 me, Mr. Shin informed me that he intends to tender two documents under
1 92 ter to the Trial Chamber, that is the witness statement provided to
2 the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities in 2000 --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the year, and
4 could Mr. Petrovic please slow down.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slow down and tell us again what year that
6 statement was taken?
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I
8 will try. The statement provided to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities
9 is from 2005. And the second document that the Prosecutor intends to
10 tender under 92 ter, as I have been informed, is the record from a
11 previous case before this Tribunal, from the 9th of July, 2007. Both the
12 documents contain some parts which, in my opinion, can be
13 self-incriminating to the witness. Since he's here going to confirm and
14 accept these two documents as his own, and these two documents would then
15 become an integral part of his testimony and will corroborate any of his
16 oral testimony here, it seems to me that some parts of these two
17 documents would need to be omitted as part of the 92 ter bundle.
18 Your Honours, I can inform you which parts of the two documents
19 are the ones which in my opinion are potentially self-incriminating to
20 the witness and, therefore, I believe are not suitable to be included in
21 the 92 ter bundle.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, first of all, Mr. Shin is on his feet.
23 The question for me arises what is the appropriate remedy if an answer,
24 including part of a statement, would be potentially incriminating, what
25 the rules say about that. Mr. Shin? But before further dealing with
1 that matter, Mr. Shin?
2 MR. SHIN: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. President. You're
3 anticipating exactly part of the points that I wish to make. I would
4 also point out that the prior testimony from the Popovic case was in open
5 session, so it was already a matter of the public record, so I'm not sure
6 what further issues may arise from trying to -- my learned friend said
7 omitted, but let's say there may be some other approach that would be a
8 solution, if necessary. Now, the areas of the SIPA statement are also
9 identical in substance to these areas in the Popovic testimony that was
10 in open session so I just wanted to note that as well.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So there are two issues, Mr. Petrovic. The first
12 one being that what is tendered by the Prosecution is already in the
13 public domain and confirming it now would not add that much to what is
14 already there. Second, what is the appropriate remedy if an answer to a
15 question is potentially incriminating. Could you please address both
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. As for the
18 first issue, both statements were provided by the witness. It's correct
19 that the one statement was provided in public session, but both
20 statements were given without the presence of his Defence attorney. At
21 the time when he provided both statements nobody was there to advise him
22 that what he was saying could possibly be self-incriminating. Therefore,
23 even though it was provided publicly, this is the situation in which he
24 sought legal advice, he sought a legal adviser, he wanted somebody to
25 take care of that on his behalf, and that situation is different from
1 this situation which was there previously. So it is no longer a question
2 of whether he -- it's not a question of whether this happened in public
3 or in private session. The essence is whether he had a legal adviser
4 presence or not. He answered without receiving advice from anyone that
5 he should not do that. And in that situation, I believe that this Trial
6 Chamber should do everything to protect this witness from being exposed
7 to a situation which could be potentially self-incriminating.
8 As for your second question, according to Rule 90(E) of our Rules
9 of Procedure and Evidence, he has the right not to answer questions which
10 could potentially be self-incriminating. By ruling out these parts from
11 these statements, in that way that would be not answering questions which
12 in his view could be self-incriminating. Of course, the Trial Chamber
13 could seek that the witness answers those questions, but then we would
14 have the situation when that answer, possible answer, could not be used
15 in any subsequent proceedings against him. So his position is that he
16 does not wish to talk about those matters. Of course, if the
17 Trial Chamber considers that he should speak of them, then he will, but
18 only on the basis of the decision of the Trial Chamber on the basis of
19 Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're taking a different passion now as you
21 did before. You said they should be stricken. First of all, Rule 90(E)
22 does not give a right not to answer any question. Rule 90(E) gives a
23 witness the right to object to answering a question on which the Chamber
24 then will decide. We do understand that such an objection is made in
25 relation to some portions of the statement. Could you please identify
1 which portions they are.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours. As for the
3 transcript of the 9th of July, 2007, pages 13556, lines 15 to 25;
4 page 13559, line 12, to page 13560, line 15; page 13566, lines 21 to 23;
5 page 13567, lines 10 to 15; page 13580, lines 17 to 24; page 13594,
6 lines 14 --
7 JUDGE ORIE: You're going at such a pace that I can't follow it.
8 I am now at 13567, you said 10 to 15. Next one, 580, 17 to 24. One
9 second, please.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the transcript. I took it that you had some
12 objections against portions of the record of the interview. Please
13 proceed with that.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the transcript,
15 there are just three more references. And they are 13594, lines 14
16 to 18.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in my copy which makes me believe that it
18 might not be part of the tendered transcripts but I have to verify that.
19 Mr. Shin, could you --
20 MR. SHIN: Yes, that's correct, Mr. President, that that would
21 not be the position of the transcript that we would tender.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For me it stops at 580. Is that -- no, let me
24 MR. SHIN: If I may, Mr. President, yes, Your Honour, you're
25 correct, it's the last page would be 13580.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so therefore, that is moot, Mr. Petrovic. We
2 now move to the record of the interview.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the B/C/S
4 version of the document. Unfortunately, I don't have the English
5 version. I believe that my learned friend Mr. Shin could assist there.
6 In B/C/S, this is paragraph 9 on page 4, and also the first full
7 paragraph on page 5. I did not receive, unfortunately, the English
8 version and I had no way of obtaining one.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you asked for it? Have you asked, Mr. Shin, if
10 only this morning, for the --
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I did not ask for it,
12 Your Honour, no, but --
13 JUDGE ORIE: More or less the problem is now ours instead of
14 yours. That's not what we expect.
15 Mr. Shin, could you assist.
16 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, if I may assist, the -- if -- if
17 my learned friend is referring to page 4, paragraph 9, of the B/C/S, that
18 would be, I believe, a paragraph beginning "tada je meni"; is that
20 MR. PETROVIC: Yes.
21 MR. SHIN: In English that would then be on page 8 and that would
22 be paragraph 4.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see, page 8, paragraph 4, starts with, "At
24 least Oficir," in English, and I see the same word in the B/C/S version
25 on page 4, 9th paragraph, yes. So we start from that one, Mr. Petrovic,
1 and then you wanted -- yes, "Oficir then told me." Where does it stop,
2 the portion, or does the whole paragraph -- okay.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just that paragraph, Your Honour,
4 and on page 5 of the B/C/S --
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. That's the paragraph which ends with
6 the last line, "This stoppage of traffic lasted for about one hour."
7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Next would be what, page 5 in B/C/S?
9 MR. SHIN: Yes, if I may, Your Honours --
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you just leave me one moment.
11 MR. SHIN: Of course.
12 JUDGE ORIE: First full paragraph, page 5, again starts in the
13 B/C/S with the word "Oficir," and, Mr. Shin, is that --
14 MR. SHIN: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- by any chance the second paragraph of page 10?
16 MR. SHIN: It would be page 9, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Page 9.
18 MR. SHIN: And it would be the first full paragraph which
19 actually appears in the middle of the page.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me see. Okay, "With his arm in bandages,
21 Oficir returned ...," that's how it starts. And it ends with, "Our
22 detachment was assembled or fully assembled in Sandici." Is that --
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby clearly on the record.
25 Mr. Shin, forgive me for not having every detail in my memory.
1 Was the witness reminded of Rule 90(E) when he gave his testimony in
3 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honour, in our motion for counsel on behalf
4 of the witness we had indicated that he was. I would just note briefly
5 we do have an English version of the BiH statement for my learned friend,
6 Mr. Petrovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Now, Mr. Petrovic, if a witness has been informed about
9 Rule 90(E), if he then nevertheless answers the questions, do you think
10 that we should then exclude that in the future where every single part of
11 the Rule has been followed? Is the appropriate remedy then to later on
12 say he wasn't advised? He was advised by the Chamber, I do understand.
13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Chamber did
14 remind him, but in my view, regardless of the caution, this is an
15 individual who isn't a lawyer and who maybe hasn't grasped how far this
16 caution reaches and what its significance is and that's why we should
17 proceed the way I suggested. I am not sure that the scope of what is
18 covered by the caution is adequate enough in the case of this witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question would be, if we would now tell
20 the witness or now say that he is forced to answer the question, would
21 that have any effect on any prosecuting authority to use, then, the
22 Popovic testimony rather than this one? Because even if his words today
23 cannot be held against him, then still the words in Popovic could, if --
24 unless I'm mistaken. If you have any comment on that, please tell me.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's correct.
1 However, he can say that at the time he did not have counsel who would be
2 able to give him legal advice, and that could make his position less
3 grave, although it may not rule out the possibility of a criminal
4 procedure initiated against him, but he would have arguments militating
5 against that. So --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Petrovic repeat what he said last?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you said last because
8 the interpreters did not catch it. What is on the record is, "... but he
9 would have arguments militating against that," and could you resume from
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] He would have arguments against
12 it, but he could not rule out the possibility that such a document may be
13 used so I agree with you on that score. But he could provide arguments
14 as to the circumstances leading to that situation, and that could make
15 his situation easier and much more favourable, should he be confronted
16 with such a situation. That's my view.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Next question: Is there any concrete reason which
18 would lead you to believe that any prosecution is prepared at this moment
19 against the witness? Or is he charged anywhere?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, based on what the
21 witness told me, he is being treated as a suspect. He cannot tell
22 precisely in which case and concerning which circumstances, but he
23 believes that his status is that of a suspect and that he has been
24 treated as such on a number of occasions before the BH court. As far as
25 I know there is no indictment that has been issued or any other formal
1 document against him but that's the status that he currently holds.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And when was that, that he last -- he felt for the
3 first time to be treated as a suspect?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date, but
5 it was after giving evidence in both these instances that were the
6 subject of our discussion today. Now, as to when this happened, the
7 witness may assist us. At any rate it was after his testimony in the
8 Popovic case and after he had given this statement to the authorities of
10 JUDGE ORIE: Which is close to eight years ago.
11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would prefer not
12 to guess. Perhaps the witness should tell us when exactly this was.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We have a date for the statement, isn't it? That's
14 2005, October, if I'm not mistaken.
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] He acquired that status at some
16 point after that point in time. When that was exactly is something that
17 the witness can tell us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you tell us under what circumstances
19 and how you learned that you were a suspect before the BiH authorities?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received a summons, perhaps a
21 year ago, from the Prosecution of the BH court to testify in the
22 indictment against Jevic et al. I was told in that summons that I should
23 have a legal representative with me since I was a suspect. It may have
24 been a year or a year and a half ago.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, anything to add?
1 MR. SHIN: Simply, Your Honours, to note that that doesn't change
2 the fact that the earlier materials are in open session, when he had been
3 provided the Rule 930(E) caution, and in addition, the remedies point,
4 Your Honours have already pointed out certainly striking or omitting is
5 not among those, for the purposes of Rule 90(E).
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Give me one second, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Petrovic, I'll give you the Chamber's ruling on
9 the objection you made. You have -- on behalf of Mr. Pepic, you have
10 objected to making the statement on the relevant portions which, as you
11 say, may tend to incriminate the witness. The Chamber accepts that this
12 objection is made. The Chamber compels the witness to answer the
13 questions; that means that those portions of the statement are included
14 in any statement or transcript which we may admit. Testimony compelled
15 in this way shall not, as the rules say, be used as evidence in a
16 subsequent Prosecution against the witness for any offence other than
17 false testimony. That applies in relation to the testimony the witness
18 gives today. The Chamber has no jurisdiction, nor any other competence,
19 to rule on the use of any statement or any testimony made previously in
20 another case or before another authority. Is this ruling clear to you?
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] It is, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, those portions will not be stricken. The
23 Chamber has considered whether we should make them confidential in order
24 to give further protection to the witness. The Chamber has decided not
25 to make those portions confidential, since they are on the public record
2 Then I think we can proceed.
3 Witness, it may be a bit complex for you what we discussed, I
4 don't know whether you have fully understood it, otherwise I'll try to
5 explain it in a few words.
6 Whatever you say today, even if you repeat something you said
7 earlier, we insist on you giving those answers, and what you say today,
8 including references to what you said earlier, cannot be used against you
9 in any other proceedings. But the Chamber is not in a position to say
10 that what you said in the Popovic case or what you said anywhere else,
11 that that cannot be used against you in any future proceedings. That is
12 just beyond our competence. So we focus exclusively on what you say
13 today, including the portions where you repeat what you said earlier.
14 That's, I hope, an understandable explanation for you, as far as your
15 situation is concerned. Is it clear to you?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may proceed, Mr. Shin.
18 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
19 Examination by Mr. Shin:
20 Q. Mr. Pepic, a proper good morning to you. Could you please state
21 your full name for the record?
22 A. Milenko Pepic.
23 Q. Now, we have been discussing this but, for the record, is it
24 correct that you provided a statement to the BiH state investigation and
25 protection agency in the Ministry of Security and the statement was dated
1 26 October 2005?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I may be referring to this document as the SIPA statement,
4 SIPA being the acronym in English for this Bosnian state entity, and as
5 I understand it, actually, the English acronym is used in Bosnia.
6 Now, my next question: For the purposes of that SIPA statement
7 you were informed of your obligation to tell the truth and of the
8 consequences of giving false testimony under Bosnian law; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you also previously testified before this Tribunal in the
12 case against Vujadin Popovic and others in July of 2007?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, in preparing to give evidence here today, did you have a
15 chance to review your October 2005 statement to the Bosnian SIPA
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. SHIN: Could I please have 65 ter 28941 brought up in
19 e-court, please?
20 Q. Mr. Pepic, while we are waiting for this document to come up on
21 the screen, you'll see that it appears on the left side of your screen in
22 B/C/S and it will shortly appear in English on the right side of the
24 Now -- okay. Now we have it in both languages.
25 Could you look at the first page that's on the screen of the
1 B/C/S, and indicate whether you recognise the signature at the bottom to
2 be yours?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'll now ask if we could go to the last page of the document, and
5 while we are waiting for that to come up, Mr. Pepic - yes, we have it
6 now - I'll ask you again if you recognise the signature at the bottom in
7 the left to be yours?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So do you recognise this document to be your statement to the
10 SIPA authorities in October 2005?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you had a chance to review this statement. Did you have any
13 corrections that you wished to make to this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. We'll go through those now. Can you please indicate what
16 changes you have in mind? Can you please tell us, what's the first
17 change you had -- that you wanted to make? If I understood you correctly
18 there were some changes you wanted to make to the document; is that
20 A. At the very beginning, the year of birth.
21 Q. Okay. And what is the correct year of birth?
22 A. I was born in 1970, whereas here it reads "1974."
23 Q. Okay. Were there any other corrections you wanted to make?
24 A. On page 2, if we can have it, it reads, "Execution by firing
25 squad." I don't recall using that word.
1 Q. Do you recall what word you did use?
2 A. "Shooting," merely "shooting", from what I recall.
3 Q. Okay. Now, we see you signed this document in multiple places.
4 You did have a chance to review it, is that not correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Bearing that in mind, are there any other changes that you wished
7 to make?
8 A. Not for the time being.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. SHIN: Now, let me just attempt to assist Their Honours in
11 locating where this is in the B/C/S, this reference you just made, both
12 in the B/C/S and also in the English. I don't believe it's on page 2
13 but, Your Honours, if you'll give me a moment I'll see if I can find
14 where it is. Now it would be on the B/C/S it is sentence straddling
15 pages 4 and 5. In the English, Your Honours, this would be in page 9,
16 the first paragraph which is not a full paragraph, near the bottom, four
17 lines from the bottom, the sentence beginning in English, "I asked him."
18 And I believe in the next line we see that phrase "executing them by
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear, does it mean instead of saying
22 "executing them by fire," just say "shooting them"?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what it reads. "Shot
24 them," "pucali." I don't recall using the word "streljanje."
25 MR. SHIN: And, Your Honours, just for the record, the word
1 "streljanje" does indeed appear in the statement. It would be in the
2 B/C/S at the very top of page 5, the third word.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, apart from the word being used, shooting them
4 by fire, if you shoot at someone in such circumstances, that is shooting
5 in order to kill them, or is it not?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's --
8 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So we should read that as, "I asked him what was
10 going on now and replied -- he replied that they were firing on the
11 Muslims," that is shooting them to kill them. That is what I understand,
12 shoot them dead.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that clarification.
15 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President. That is an issue that I
16 will return to in my direct examination.
17 Q. Mr. Pepic, before we continue I want to ask one area of
18 clarification. Now, in your SIPA statement, you talk about the events at
19 the Kravica warehouse. Do you recall whether those events occurred on
20 the 12th of July or on the following day, on the 13th of July?
21 A. I cannot recall, but it's more likely to have been the 13th.
22 Q. Okay. And it's more likely. Well, if this may help your
23 recollection, do you remember that in your testimony in the Popovic case,
24 when you were cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic, who is in the courtroom
25 today, do you remember telling Mr. Stojanovic that it was in fact the
1 13th that -- 13th of July that those events occurred? Does that assist
2 your recollection of which day these events were?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. All right. Thank you.
5 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I'll continue on with the foundation of
6 the 92 ter statement then.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
8 MR. SHIN:
9 Q. Mr. Pepic, apart from these corrections we just discussed, if you
10 were asked today about the same matters in the SIPA statement would you
11 provide the same information in substance to this Trial Chamber?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. SHIN: Just one moment. Your Honours, if I may have a
14 moment, please.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. SHIN:
17 Q. I'm sorry, just a matter of a very specific clarification.
18 When -- Mr. Pepic, when you indicated that recalling your testimony in
19 the Popovic case would refresh your recollection, does that mean that you
20 are -- are you saying that it was the 13th of July that the Kravica
21 warehouse events occurred, just to be clear?
22 A. I'm not that sure, but it's probably the 13th.
23 Q. Okay. Now, having taken that solemn declaration here today, do
24 you affirm that the information in your SIPA statement is truthful and
1 A. Yes. But the dates and all that, I don't recall that all too
2 well. Was it the 11th, the 12th, the 13th, there I'm a bit --
3 Q. Mr. Pepic, let me ask my question again: You reviewed your SIPA
4 statement. You've made some very specific corrections, very specific
5 corrections. Now, with those corrections, is that SIPA statement, the
6 information therein, is it truthful and accurate?
7 A. Well, partly yes, as far as I remember.
8 Q. Well, what part is not truthful and accurate?
9 A. Well, I don't know about the dates, as I say. Did it happen on
10 the 12th, did it happen on the 13th?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, is there any other matter where you
12 think it would not be accurate, apart from date and apart from the use of
13 the word we just discussed a minute ago? So leave all that aside, apart
14 from that, is there anything else which would not be accurate?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. The rest is.
16 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 28941
17 into evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will
20 object to this being tendered for the following reasons: First, it is
21 unusual that statements given before official bodies of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina should be admitted as evidence in conjunction with his
23 testimony provided before the Tribunal pursuant to 92 ter, if my
24 understanding is correct. Our suggestion is that the record of statement
25 given to SIPA does not meet the requirements for admission into evidence
1 pursuant to 92 ter.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, does Rule 92 ter - and the same
3 question, of course, for Mr. Shin - apply at all to this statement? This
4 is not a statement taken for the purposes of this Tribunal. So
5 therefore, I'm looking at both parties a little bit confused by your
6 approach that this would be covered by Rule 92 ter.
7 MR. SHIN: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Rule 92 ter reads:
9 "Evidence of a witness in the form of a written statement or
10 transcript of evidence given by a witness in proceedings before this
12 That's what Rule 92 ter reads. Now, I've been working here for a
13 while and I've seen a lot of statements given to other authorities to be
14 admitted into evidence, not under Rule 92 ter but just under Rule - what
15 is it, 89(C) - so I'm both puzzled by your response and I wouldn't have
16 said anything about it, Mr. Shin, but since this is now the response,
17 I wonder whether you think that apart from it perhaps being good to
18 verify that the witness is still standing behind his statement, whether
19 Rule 92 ter applies at all.
20 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President, if I may. The Prosecution's
21 position is that Rule 92 ter does not exclude the introduction of a
22 statement such as the SIPA statement. We note that in the
23 6th of February, 2013, decision on 92 bis motion by the Prosecution that
24 the Trial Chamber had noted that a cantonal court statement was satisfied
25 the requirements of 92 bis in that instance, specifically referencing the
1 caution to tell the truth and the consequences of false testimony.
2 Otherwise, we do -- we would submit that this statement does otherwise
3 achieve the objective of a focused presentation of the evidence and we
4 have no other statement for this witness. We of course have the
5 transcript and in our 92 ter motion we had tendered that in the
6 alternative if the SIPA statement were not accepted.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, anything to add, anything to
8 further illustrate how Rule 92 ter would apply in relation to this
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, briefly.
11 During our preparations for this witness's testimony, we received a list
12 from the Prosecution listing the alternatives as to the evidence that
13 would be admitted under 92 ter. This is a highly unusual situation. We
14 have a filing on which the Trial Chamber has not ruled yet. When we said
15 that we are unable to prepare the way we are being asked to do, we had to
16 prepare for both these alternatives because we did not know how the
17 Chamber would rule in view of the Prosecution's position. The --
18 however, the position of the Defence is clear. We believe that this
19 would be a precedent outside of the standards that have so far been
20 applied in this trial. We believe that the SIPA statement would not rise
21 up to the requirements of 92 ter.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But is there any objection against admission under
23 Rule 89(C)?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't have an objection
25 regarding that, but then the transcript from the Popovic case would be
1 under 92 ter.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are at this moment focusing exclusively on
3 the SIPA statement, Mr. Shin, for admission now, that's what you
5 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Next step, we'll see when we come to that.
7 Madam Registrar?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28941 receives number P1543,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1543 is admitted. One second, please.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will first hear any further submissions
13 before we finally decide on admission. At the same time, it's time for a
14 break. We have not made much progress in hearing the testimony of the
15 witness yet, but I hope that that will change soon after the break.
16 One second.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will take the break first. Could the witness be
19 escorted out of the courtroom. After the break, Witness, we hope to hear
20 the substance of your testimony.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 Mr. Shin, when you tendered the SIPA statement, the Chamber
2 understood that if we would admit it, that you would not tender the
3 transcript any further.
4 MR. SHIN: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Of the Popovic case.
6 MR. SHIN: That's correct, Mr. President, they were offered in
7 the alternative.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the decision already pronounced, that we
9 admit the SIPA statement and we just have to -- that's P1543 now. The
10 admission of the SIPA statement stands.
11 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while we are
13 waiting for the witness, just one thing. If I understood your decision,
14 this SIPA statement would be under 85(C). So then there is the question
15 of tendering the transcript, in the alternative, under 92 ter. So in
16 that way, in our submission, in May 2013, we said why we believe this
17 witness should be questioned viva voce and that the transcript is not
18 suitable to be used under 92 ter.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, a minute ago I asked you whether there
21 was any objection against admission of the SIPA statement under
22 Rule 89(C), not 85(C), and you said there was --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 89(C), Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: 89(C), and then you said there were no objections.
25 Therefore, that is admitted and there was no objection to it, at least
1 not any more in court.
2 Mr. Shin, you may proceed and --
3 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Pepic, you may have heard this, I'm not sure, but your SIPA
5 statement has been tendered into evidence here. Now, I'm going to ask
6 you a few questions.
7 MR. SHIN: But first, Your Honours, may I read a summary of the
8 witness's evidence?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
10 MR. SHIN: And as I understand it, Mr. President, I've explained
11 to counsel for the witness the purpose of the summary.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What is now read is not evidence but just summarises
13 what your evidence is.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
15 MR. SHIN: In July 1995, Milenko Pepic was a member of the 2nd
16 Sekovici Detachment of the Special Police forces brigade or Special
17 Police Brigade commanded by Rade Cuturic also known by the nickname
18 Oficir. His unit was sent to Srebrenica on 11th of July, 1995, and on
19 the following day to the Potocari area.
20 Subsequently, his unit was assigned to duty along the Bratunac to
21 Konjevic Polje road. While there, Mr. Pepic heard Muslims being called
22 from the woods to surrender. He could also hear detonations from the
23 area south of the road. At one point, Mr. Cuturic told Mr. Pepic and
24 other men that Muslim prisoners at Sandici would have to be escorted to a
25 warehouse in Kravica.
1 Mr. Cuturic then took Mr. Pepic to a small bridge on that road in
2 the village of Kravica, gave him a Motorola radio and told him to stop
3 the buses carrying Muslim women and children, when Cuturic called
4 Mr. Pepic on the radio.
5 When Mr. Cuturic contacted him via radio, Mr. Pepic stopped the
6 vehicles. He then heard shooting and detonations coming from the
7 direction of Kravica. Mr. Cuturic arrived at Mr. Pepic's position
8 shortly after on his way to Bratunac and told Mr. Pepic about an incident
9 in which he had been injured and said that the Muslims at the Kravica
10 warehouse were being killed. The shooting continued. Later, Mr. Cuturic
11 returned from the direction of Bratunac and ordered Mr. Pepic to allow
12 the vehicles to continue. Later that day, Mr. Pepic passed the Kravica
13 warehouse and saw piles of hay in front which he believed were now
14 covering the bodies of the Muslim victims so that the women and children
15 on the buses would not see them.
16 Mr. President, that concludes my summary, and if I may.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any additional questions for the witness
18 you may put them to him.
19 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Pepic, as you've heard, the Judges have your SIPA
21 statement so I won't be going over in detail the information there. I'll
22 be asking a few questions along some specific areas. Now, I'd like to
23 begin by asking you a few questions about your unit, the 2nd Sekovici
24 Detachment. Now, to be clear, that 2nd Sekovici Detachment, that's part
25 of a Special Police Brigade; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You state -- in your statement you say that the commander of the
3 Sekovici detachment was Rade Cuturic. Now, who was Mr. Cuturic's direct
5 A. Rade Cuturic was the commander from mid-June, if I recall, and
6 his superior was the brigade commander, Goran Saric.
7 Q. Okay. Who was Mr. Cuturic's direct superior in the area of
8 Srebrenica on the days of July 11th, 12th and 13th?
9 A. I don't know that. I don't remember.
10 Q. Well, do you recall telling the Judges at this Tribunal in the
11 Popovic trial that his direct superior in the area of Srebrenica was
12 Ljubisa Borovcanin?
13 A. Ljubisa Borovcanin was the deputy brigade commander, and he was
14 in the area around Srebrenica. He was probably his superior.
15 Q. He was probably or he was, based on your knowledge and your
17 A. As far as I know, he was the deputy commander of the special
18 brigade superior to our detachment commander.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pepic. Now, you have in your statement also that
20 there were three platoons of the 2nd Sekovici Detachment. My question
21 for you: How many men are we talking about in these three platoons
23 A. I don't know the exact number. The approximate number in the
24 platoons would be up to 30, perhaps fewer men, but I don't know the exact
1 Q. Okay. So that would be up to 90 approximately, in the three
2 platoons together?
3 A. If each of them numbered 30, yes.
4 Q. Now, you identified in your statement the leader of the
5 3rd Platoon to be someone known as by the nickname Cop. What was his
6 real name in full?
7 A. Milenko Trifunovic, aka Cop. He was the commander of the
8 3rd Detachment, the detachment from Skelani.
9 Q. And your platoon -- I'm sorry, in the translation we have that he
10 was commander of the 3rd Detachment. Did you mean he was commander of
11 the 3rd Detachment or the 3rd Platoon?
12 A. The 3rd Platoon.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, you as you state were in the 2nd Platoon.
14 During the days of 11 to 13 July, who was the commander of that platoon?
15 A. We didn't have a commander.
16 Q. So who gave you orders?
17 A. We received orders directly from our detachment commander,
18 Cuturic, Oficir.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pepic. I'm going to move now to another area, and
20 it's some questions I have about the equipment that the
21 2nd Sekovici Detachment had with them. Now, you and members of your unit
22 were dressed in camouflage overalls, that is in your statement. Just to
23 be clear, by "overalls" do you mean that these were one-piece uniforms or
24 two-piece uniforms?
25 A. Overalls mostly, "kombinezoni."
1 Q. Okay. Is a "kombinezoni," does that mean that's one-piece --
2 that's a one-piece uniform?
3 A. Yes, one piece.
4 Q. Okay. Now, your detachment, what insignia or emblem did the
5 members of your detachment wear?
6 A. We had insignia above our left arm which said, "Special Police
7 Brigade" with the Serbian flag in there, the double-headed eagle, and
8 then the numbers were written out.
9 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to ask you if you could explain to these
10 Judges what kinds of mechanised weaponry or armoured vehicles did the
11 2nd Sekovici Detachment have?
12 A. We had a tank, we had a Praga, we had a three-barrelled gun,
13 mortars, and automatic weapons.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, could I just seek some clarification. You
15 said on the insignia on your left arm also contained the numbers, the
16 numbers were written out. Numbers of what? Of the detachment or of --
17 could you tell us?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The detachment numbers, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. SHIN: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I believe the witness said
21 "voda" again which may be "platoon." Was that platoon or detachment,
22 Mr. Pepic? What number was on that patch, the platoon or detachment
24 JUDGE ORIE: Or both?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The numbers of the detachment. The
1 2nd Detachment had a number beginning with 2.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And what, then, followed after the 2?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rest of the numbers, 2033,
4 2022. My number was 2043. It went in order of issuance of the uniform.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it was -- the start was the number of the
6 detachment and then what followed was an individual number related to
7 your uniform and therefore to you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Now, did your -- did the detachment, the Sekovici detachment, did
12 it also have mortar support?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that part of the three platoons or was that a separate unit
15 within the detachment?
16 A. They were separate, within the detachment.
17 Q. Did you also -- in addition to automatic weapons, did you also
18 have hand-held rockets known as zoljas?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Pepic. I'm going to move now to another
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shin, on the question about vehicles, the
23 witness answered -- at least part of his answer was that they had a tank.
24 Did you have any other vehicles apart from that tank?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a Praga and we had --
1 MR. SHIN: Yes, Your Honours, if we just go back to page 30,
2 lines 15 and 16, I believe the witness testified that there was also the
3 Praga and a three-barrelled gun.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Praga being exactly what?
5 MR. SHIN:
6 Q. Mr. Pepic, if you could please answer His Honour's question.
7 Could you describe what a Praga is?
8 A. I don't know exactly, but a Praga is an armoured vehicle with two
9 cannons mounted on it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you had no other vehicles apart from the
11 tank and the Praga?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had two military trucks, 110 and
13 150, and we also had a bus that belonged to our detachment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Pepic, I'd like to focus briefly on your time before
18 Mr. Cuturic took you to the small bridge in the village of Kravica, this
19 time when you were on the road. Now, you explained in your statement
20 that you were deployed on the road between Sandici and Kravica. And by
21 "you" I mean your detachment. Now, while you were there, this is the
22 same day as the events of the Kravica warehouse, but before you were
23 posted at that bridge, did you see buses along that road carrying Muslim
24 women and children in the direction of Konjevic Polje?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you describe in your statement that you heard detonations
2 from the direction of the woods on the hill south of that road. Did you
3 also hear that Praga firing during that time?
4 A. I don't recall hearing the Praga but I did hear detonations.
5 Q. Well, would it refresh your recollection if I -- if I told you
6 that you testified in the Popovic trial that you did hear a Praga firing?
7 A. It's possible.
8 Q. In addition to the detonations, this may be an obvious question,
9 did you also hear shooting from that direction?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And this shooting, can you describe what that firing sounded like
12 to you, generally?
13 A. There was shooting from infantry weapons, from the direction of
14 Sandici and from the woods.
15 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to move on to a slightly different area.
16 Mr. Pepic, in your statement, you describe that Mr. Cuturic came to tell
17 you that a group of Muslims located at Sandici needed to be escorted to
18 the Kravica warehouse. And your statement goes on to describe some of
19 the following events in detail, so just a few questions here.
20 After you receive the call from Mr. Cuturic, while you were at
21 that point on the bridge, you stop the convoy of buses carrying the
22 Muslim women and children. And then you mentioned that at one point you
23 heard shooting coming from the direction of the hangar. Just so that we
24 are clear here, by hangar you're talking about the Kravica warehouse; is
25 that -- is that correct?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. You also describe in your statement that you heard bomb
3 detonations that could be heard coming from the direction of the
4 warehouse. Now, by bomb detonations, can you describe to the Judges here
5 what types of explosions those were, as far as you could understand?
6 A. They were loud, strong detonations. You could hear them.
7 Q. Did you understand what types of explosives were detonating?
8 Could you understand that?
9 A. I assumed they were bombs, that these were explosions from bombs.
10 Q. I'll move on, then. Now, having stopped the convoy of buses, you
11 explain in your statement that the gunfire could be heard by the drivers
12 and the civilians on those buses.
13 My question to you is: Do you -- do you recall how the drivers
14 and the civilians, the women and children on those buses, how they
16 A. I don't remember how they reacted, but shooting could be heard.
17 Q. Okay. Now, you will recall that you described in the Popovic
18 trial the nature of this shooting. Now, this is the shooting from the
19 warehouse as well as the bomb detonation that you described as coming
20 from the direction of the warehouse. You described in the Popovic trial
21 what this sounded like, particularly in comparison to the shooting you
22 heard earlier in the day, that earlier shooting coming from the hill
23 south of Sandici. Can you describe now for these Judges in this Chamber
24 what was different about the shooting coming from the Kravica warehouse,
25 the sound or the quality of it, what was different between that compared
1 to that earlier shooting?
2 A. It was different because it was coming only from one side, this
3 shooting and the detonations. No shooting was heard from the side of the
5 Q. And in addition, if you could try to describe for these Judges
6 here the intensity of that shooting compared to the shooting earlier, so
7 the intensity of the shooting you heard coming from the warehouse versus
8 the shooting you heard coming earlier in the day from the hills?
9 A. It was stronger. There was more fire. You could hear it more
10 loudly than before.
11 Q. Now, I'd like, Mr. Pepic, if you could assist the Judges here in
12 understanding exactly where your position was along the road. I'm going
13 to ask you some questions about that.
14 MR. SHIN: So if I could please have 65 ter 14885 brought up on
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I meanwhile ask a question to clarify. You
17 were asked about the intensity of the shooting, and your answer said --
18 in your answer, you said:
19 "It was stronger. There was more fire. You could hear it more
20 loudly than before."
21 Now, when you said there was more fire, does that mean that you
22 heard more shots, more firing apart from it being louder also, to be more
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Actually, Mr. Pepic, before we go to this document I'd like to
4 ask you one question relating to what Mr. Cuturic told you. Now, in your
5 statement, you described that when he told you about the prisoners at
6 Sandici who needed -- who were going to be moved to Kravica, in your
7 statement - and this is in English page 8, the third paragraph, and the
8 B/C/S page 4, the 8th paragraph - you say that he -- Mr. Cuturic sneered
9 when he said that. How did you understand that sneer? What did that
10 mean to you?
11 A. I said that he laughed. I didn't say that he sneered, but that
12 he said it with a smile. He was probably thinking of us so that we
13 wouldn't get frightened. That's how I understood it anyway.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MR. SHIN: Now, if we could go back to -- I'm sorry, I may have
16 thrown our court officers -- if we could please go back to 65 ter 14885.
17 Q. While we are waiting for that, Mr. Pepic, you'll recognise this
18 as a map marked by you during your testimony in the Popovic trial in July
19 2007. You've made some markings and I'm just going to ask you to briefly
20 explain those markings to the Judges of this Chamber.
21 First of all, in the centre of this map we see Kravica, and I'd
22 like to ask you - that blue X in that red circle, if you could take a
23 look at your screen you see that blue X in the red circle next to the
24 initials MP - now does that -- would it be correct that that blue X is
25 marking where you were standing when you were posted on the bridge by
1 Mr. Cuturic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If we just go a little bit to the left, we see a small red X just
4 to the south of that road. Would it be correct that when you marked that
5 you meant that to be the location of the Kravica warehouse?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And just so that we complete the picture here, below that little
8 red X which marks the location of the Kravica warehouse, we do see some
9 other markings. Would it be correct that those markings are KW -- are
10 the letters KW?
11 A. From what I can see, yes, yes.
12 Q. Okay. I will move on. The --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you move on, what do the letters KW mean,
14 sir? What do they signify?
15 MR. SHIN: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance here. The
16 witness -- we could seek his recollection by reading the portion of the
17 Popovic transcript but to smooth the transition, the Judges had asked him
18 to mark that to indicate what that red X was, so it may be that the
19 languages -- the letters represent a language not known to the witness.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You say you're going to assist? Are you going
21 to --
22 MR. SHIN: I can -- I'll read -- I'll read the passage to him
23 from the transcript, Your Honours. And this is from the transcript, from
24 the Popovic trial. It's page 13571, lines 16 through 18.
25 Q. Mr. Pepic, if you could just tell me if you recall this exchange?
1 In that case, Judge Agius was asking you, "Could you now indicate --"
3 "Could you now indicate -- first let's start like this, first
4 beneath that X could you put the letters KW.
5 Do you -- do you recall that? Do you recall the Judge asking you
6 to make those markings?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Do you recall that by that the Judge meant you to mark where the
9 location of the Kravica warehouse, which is KW in English, where the
10 Kravica warehouse is?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pepic.
13 MR. SHIN: I apologies to Your Honours for not being more clear
14 about that. I can see that raised a question.
15 With that, Your Honours, I would tender this 65 ter 14885.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
17 Madam Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14885 receives number P1544,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P1544 is admitted. Please proceed, Mr. Shin.
21 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Pepic, now moving a little forward in time again, you
23 describe in your statement that after you had been instructed to permit
24 the traffic to flow again, you describe that you had been picked up by
25 the detachment bus and that you were on your way to Konjevic Polje and
1 you passed the Kravica warehouse. You explain in your statement that you
2 saw hay in front of the warehouse and that you believed that hay was
3 there to cover the bodies of Muslims who had been killed so that the
4 women and children in the passing convoy would not see them.
5 MR. SHIN: And this is on page 9 of the English and page 5 of the
6 B/C/S, Your Honours.
7 Q. Now, I would just ask you a few questions about another document
8 that you've seen in the Popovic trial. If I could have 65 ter 14891.
9 Mr. Pepic, while we're waiting for this document to come up, let me just
10 explain that it is an aerial photograph marked by you during your
11 testimony in the Popovic trial. And again, I'll just be asking to you
12 explain what those markings are to the Judges in this Chamber.
13 I think we need a minute -- there it is.
14 Now, Mr. Pepic, in the middle of this photograph, we see - let's
15 say horizontally and parallel to the road - a building that you have
16 marked in red ink. Would it be correct that on the top of that building
17 are two letters, ZZ, which is the B/C/S acronym for agricultural
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that is what you mean by the Kravica warehouse; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, on the front of this building, on the right-hand side, we
23 see three Xs. Do you recall that those Xs that you had -- by marking
24 those Xs what you meant to mark?
25 A. I marked the traces that bullets left on the walls.
1 Q. And in front of the middle of those Xs, extending a little to the
2 right there we see what looks like an oval. Now, while -- when
3 testifying in the Popovic trial, do you recall what you meant that oval
4 to mean?
5 A. I marked approximately the area where I saw that heap of hay.
6 Q. Do you recall now in your statement, and this is again page 9
7 English, page 5 B/C/S, that there was more hay to the right as well as
8 the hay that you drew that circle around? Do you recall that?
9 A. Well, it was strewn roughly the way I marked it here.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. SHIN: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 14891.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14891 receives number P1545,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Pepic, I'm going to move on to a slightly different
18 topic and actually moving back to one of the issues we discussed earlier.
19 You discussed in your statement when Mr. Cuturic told you something that
20 happened at the Kravica warehouse where an individual nicknamed Krle was
21 killed, and in this incident you describe in your statement that
22 Mr. Cuturic told you he had grabbed -- he had responded by grabbing the
23 barrel of the weapon that had been used. Now, first, a quick question on
24 Krle. Krle, that's a nickname; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was the full -- the real name of this Krle?
2 A. His first name is Krsto. We called him Krle. I don't recall his
3 surname. So Krsto is his first name.
4 Q. Okay. Now, when Mr. Cuturic was telling you about these events,
5 and this is perhaps an obvious question, but just so that we are clear,
6 the shooting of Krle and Mr. Cuturic grabbing the barrel, how soon did
7 the one action follow the other? Again perhaps an obvious question but,
8 please, if you can answer as you understood this.
9 A. Well, I don't remember. I don't remember what the interval could
10 have been.
11 Q. But would it have been seconds or minutes?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't the first question whether this was told by
13 Mr. Cuturic?
14 MR. SHIN: Yes. I believe that was in his statement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. SHIN: Perhaps I'm not --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. SHIN: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour, sometimes I --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, but the witness of course, his answers suggested
20 more or less that he was talking from his own observations.
21 MR. SHIN: Ah, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you say, I don't know whether it was seconds or
23 minutes, that is a bit ambiguous as to what you're telling us about,
24 whether you're telling what someone else told you or whether you're
25 talking from your own observation.
1 MR. SHIN: Absolutely, Mr. Honour -- Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That was my problem.
3 MR. SHIN:
4 Q. Mr. Pepic, if I could try this question again so that it's clear,
5 as Mr. Cuturic was telling you about what happened with Krle and about
6 what happened with grabbing the barrel, did it -- did you understand how
7 close in time these events were? Just those two actions: The shooting
8 of Krle, the grabbing of the barrel of the weapon.
9 A. I don't understand. I don't know how fast or how slow he could
10 have --
11 Q. But do those incidents occur one after the other, the shooting
12 and then the grabbing of the gun? Just simply that.
13 A. I don't know exactly if they did. Or what the sequence of events
14 was. They seized Krle's rifle off him, they killed him, and then how
15 much time passed before he managed to snatch the barrel and sustain
16 injuries in the process, I don't know how much time passed.
17 Q. Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you the following: Did he say something
19 like, he took the weapon, he snatched the weapon, started shooting,
20 I immediately took the barrel; or did he say he tried to shoot others as
21 well, and then I grabbed the barrel; or did he not say anything about how
22 much time there was between the shooting of Krle and grabbing the barrel?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't tell me anything about
24 the time that passed between the shooting and him grabbing the barrel.
25 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. In any event, Mr. Witness, you do describe - this is be page 9 of
2 the English page 4 of the B/C/S - that about ten minutes after hearing
3 the radio call regarding this fatality that Mr. Cuturic came by your
4 position. So I'll continue. Now, I'd like to show you a document which
5 I believe you've seen before. And this is Prosecution Exhibit 1477, if
6 we could have that up, but if I understand correctly we are not to
7 broadcast that. Now, Mr. Pepic, while we are waiting for this to come up
8 on the screen, perhaps I have the wrong --
9 MR. SHIN: Just one moment, please, Your Honour. Yes,
10 I understand I do have the correct exhibit number but not the correct
11 document on our screen so perhaps I can try again. P01477.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's there now.
13 MR. SHIN: Great. Thank you very much. And if we could have
14 English up as well.
15 Q. Mr. Pepic, if you could just look at the left-hand side there and
16 maybe the writing is a little small but I think you can make it out, in
17 the third row, third column, you see the name Dragicevic, the
18 parentheses, Bogoljub, Krsto.
19 Now, do you know -- let me just ask, is that -- does this relate
20 to the Krle that you've mentioned?
21 A. Dragicevic, Krsto.
22 Q. Is that Krle?
23 A. Well, probably yes, Krle.
24 Q. If we go over to the right three columns, first two columns over
25 we see the word Skelani and to the right we see Special Police Skelani.
1 Now, Special Police Skelani, that would refer to the Special
2 Police Brigade; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, Skelani Platoon.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter isn't sure.
5 MR. SHIN:
6 Q. When you say Skelani Platoon, you're -- that's also known
7 sometimes as the 3rd Platoon; is that correct?
8 A. The 3rd Platoon, Skelani, right.
9 Q. Now my final area of questions, I'd like to ask now you mentioned
10 in your statement - and this is English page 9, B/C/S pages 4 and 5 - you
11 mentioned that at that time, this would presumably be in July 1995, you
12 did not know who was firing upon the people in the Kravica warehouse.
13 That was, of course, back in -- a number of years ago. Have you, since
14 then, learned who was firing on the Muslims who were at the Kravica
16 A. No.
17 Q. Well, are you aware that several persons have been convicted
18 before the state court in Bosnia for the killing at Kravica? Are you
19 aware of that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you've actually testified in one and possibly more of those
22 cases; is that correct?
23 A. More than two. Three times.
24 Q. Now, were any of these persons who have been convicted at the
25 state court, were they members of the 2nd Sekovici Detachment?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. A final question here. You mention that on the night of
3 13th of July, when you were with your colleagues in an abandoned house
4 near Konjevic Polje, you mention -- and this is page 10 of the English,
5 page 5 of the B/C/S. You mention that Mr. Cuturic came by and spoke to
6 you about the killing of the civilians at the Kravica warehouse. Do you
7 recall that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In your statement you say that he told you it was "not a good
10 thing," quote, "not a good thing." Now, my question to you is when he
11 was telling you this, did you have the impression that -- or did you
12 understand Mr. Cuturic to believe himself in any way responsible for
13 these killings?
14 A. I didn't give it any thought.
15 Q. Did you -- did he say anything about who he believed was
16 responsible for these killings?
17 A. He didn't say anything. He only said that sooner or later, time
18 will come when somebody will be held responsible for what has been done.
19 Q. I'm sorry, with that I do have one more question. He said
20 someone would be held responsible. When he said "somebody," do you think
21 he meant him or any of the people who were under his command?
22 A. It is possible that he thought as much.
23 MR. SHIN: No further questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Shin.
25 Is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness,
1 Mr. Stojanovic?
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pepic, you'll now be cross-examined by
4 Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left and
5 Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pepic, good day to you.
8 A. Good day.
9 Q. I'd like you to tell the Chamber where you were physically
10 present before you came out to the area of Srebrenica?
11 A. Our detachment was at the Sarajevo battle front, close to a place
12 called Srednje.
13 Q. When you left for Srebrenica and Bratunac, were you at all
14 familiar with the task that you were to expect?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What were all of you who were in that vehicle heading from
17 Sarajevo to Vlasenica thinking?
18 A. We believed that we were on our way to the base. However, on our
19 journey we were told that we were heading to the territory of Bratunac
20 and Srebrenica.
21 Q. Did you at any point before arriving in the Bratunac area receive
22 any specific information or order about your impending tasks?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What was your first task on your arrival in the Bratunac area?
25 A. We were dispatched to Bjelovac. We spent a night there in an
1 abandoned house or school building.
2 Q. Can you briefly explain the whereabouts of the village of
3 Bjelovac in relation to Srebrenica and Potocari?
4 A. The village of Bjelovac is in the municipality of Bratunac, 4 to
5 5 kilometres upstream the Drina in the direction of the Sase monastery.
6 Q. Your first specific task was on the following morning after your
7 arrival in the Bratunac area; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were deployed to the Potocari area. Can you tell the Chamber
10 how did it happen that you specifically received your assignment?
11 A. Our assignment was to search the terrain to the right of the
12 Bratunac-Srebrenica road, so to the right of the road in the direction of
14 Q. What time of day was it?
15 A. If I remember correctly, it was in the afternoon.
16 Q. Who issued the order to you, specifically?
17 A. We received our order from our detachment commander, Oficir.
18 Q. When you say "Oficir," would it be fair to say that this is a
19 nickname for the detachment commander, Rade Cuturic?
20 A. Yes, Rade Cuturic, also known as Oficir.
21 Q. As you were carrying out that first order that you received, did
22 you engage in combat with the BH Army at all?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you see any civilian population present in the area that you
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you at any point happen to be in Potocari among the civilian
4 A. No.
5 Q. How long did it take you to carry out that combat task?
6 A. I can't remember exactly. More than an hour, an hour and a half,
7 perhaps, as far as I remember.
8 Q. Did there come a time when you received another order?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And which order was that?
11 A. The order was that we should withdraw from that stretch of the
12 terrain and head for Bratunac.
13 Q. Can you recall how exactly you received the order?
14 A. No. Probably over the communication system.
15 Q. Who did that second order come from?
16 A. Well, it was from our superior officer, commander.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the name?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Where did you assemble before you set out to carry out your
20 second task?
21 A. In the vicinity of the Yellow Bridge.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think you mentioned a name from whom the order
23 came, the superior officer. Could you please repeat the name.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rade Cuturic, also known as Oficir.
25 Oficir was his nickname.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. How were you transported to the area where you were supposed to
3 carry out your second order?
4 A. Well, we had a bus at our disposal as well as two military
5 vehicles, 110 and 150.
6 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, to the best of your recollection, what
7 was that second order that you received from Rade Cuturic?
8 A. The order was that we would be deployed to the place called
9 Kravica, to provide security for the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.
10 Q. Were you told what the reason was, why you had to secure that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us why were you charged with securing this specific
15 A. The reason was that a large group of armed Muslims was heading
16 from Srebrenica and there was a risk that the road might be cut off,
17 meaning the Kravica-Konjevic Polje road. There was a possibility that
18 the Muslim forces might try to cut off the road.
19 Q. Do you agree --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] One more question, Your Honour,
21 if I may, and then I will stop before the break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you agree that the right-hand side of the road facing
25 Konjevic Polje was the rear side of the Serbian villages in the area?
1 A. Yes, Kravica and some other villages.
2 Q. Based on your experience of an individual who had been in the war
3 for a couple of years by then, was this a legitimate task to be given to
4 your unit?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that
8 it's our time for the break now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break. Could the witness be escorted
10 out of the courtroom.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at quarter past 12.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Pepic, can you please tell the Trial Chamber, in your best
20 recollection, what the time of day was when you came to the
21 Kravica-Konjevic Polje road?
22 A. From what I can remember, I think it was perhaps in the
24 Q. When you were taking up the position, did you notice if there
25 were any other police or military formations there already?
1 A. No, not as far as I can remember.
2 Q. Could you just briefly tell us, because you already said that in
3 the statement, in relation to the Kravica warehouse, who was the closest
4 in the disposition that you had at that particular time?
5 A. We were deployed according to platoons. That was the
6 disposition. So I don't know if it was the 1st, 2nd or the 3rd Platoon.
7 Q. Which of these three platoons was the closest to the Kravica
9 A. As far as I can remember, it was the 1st Platoon.
10 Q. And do you remember if there were any members of the PJP units
11 with you?
12 A. Yes, the "Posebna Jedinica Policije," police unit from the
13 Zvornik centre was with us.
14 Q. And do you remember where that unit was deployed in relation to
15 the Kravica warehouse?
16 A. They were positioned along the road from Sandici to Konjevic
17 Polje, that section.
18 Q. At any point in time that day in the afternoon, did you see any
19 military formation along that road?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Do you recall whether you stayed there the following night on
22 that assignment?
23 A. I don't remember but I think that we did, yes.
24 Q. During that afternoon and night, did you have one single prisoner
25 in the sector where you yourself were?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember if that afternoon, that evening and night, there
3 were any battles with the 28th Division?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you remember if there were any casualties among the PJP
7 A. One member of the PJP unit was killed in the Sandici sector. I
8 don't know exactly where.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 04082
11 in e-court, please? We will need to look at the second page of both the
12 English and the B/C/S versions of the document.
13 And while we are waiting for the document, Your Honours, I just
14 want to say that this is a document that we refer to as
15 Ljubomir Borovcanin's report for July 1995.
16 Q. Before I put the question to you about the document, what I would
17 like to ask you first is this: Can you please tell us, if you know,
18 Rade Cuturic, aka Oficir, who did he get the orders from that he conveyed
19 to you?
20 A. I assume that he got it from his superior, either the brigade
21 commander or his deputy.
22 Q. You don't know, then, according to the principle of singleness of
23 command and subordination, who they, in turn, would receive their orders
25 A. No.
1 Q. I'm asking you this for the following reason: On page 2 that you
2 can see in front of you, in the fifth paragraph, or the sixth paragraph,
3 in the Borovcanin report, it states for the 12th of July, 1995, that he
4 received an order from General Mladic to take one half of the men and the
5 available equipment to that section in order to block the terrain and to
6 fight the said formation. I'm asking you this first: Do you know that
7 all the police units came to that road?
8 A. As far as I know, yes.
9 Q. And do you know that at that time, in the area where you were,
10 the road and Potocari, the Jahorina training centre unit was there too?
11 A. Yes, I did hear that they were there.
12 Q. And at any point in time, did you have the opportunity to
13 encounter members of the Jahorina training centre unit?
14 A. No, not at that time, no.
15 Q. And were the members of those units part of the police force?
16 A. Yes, I think so.
17 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber who comprised that training
18 centre, Jahorina?
19 A. As far as I know, they were fairly young guys. I don't know how
20 they became members of the unit. I don't know exactly.
21 Q. Did you have the opportunity to hear the term about the presence
22 of deserters in that area?
23 A. Yes. I think, as far as I can remember, there were these
24 so-called deserters, that's what you called them, who were part of that
25 unit. They were also in that unit from the training centre.
1 Q. In the document that you have in front of you, it's the last
2 paragraph in the English version, Your Honours, and Mr. Pepic, it's the
3 paragraph above the phrase, "13th of July, 1995," it states, "along the
4 road from Kravica, Sandici, Pervani, up to Hrcici [phoen], the SOP is
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat his question
7 and the witness his last two answers? Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you please repeat your
9 question and could the witness then repeat his answers?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, we will
11 slow down.
12 Q. My last question was: What does this abbreviation 2nd SP -- SOP
14 A. It probably means the 2nd Special Police Detachment, "Drugi
15 Specijalni Odred Policije."
16 Q. And were you a member of 2nd Detachment of the Special Police; is
17 that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'm continuing to read:
20 "And the first company of the PJP Zvornik with two tanks, a BOV
21 20/3, a Praga, and an MB platoon. During that night, there was fierce
22 fighting. One policeman from the SM Bratunac was killed."
23 And here I'm just going to ask you this: Are you able to tell
24 the Trial Chamber what the abbreviation SM Bratunac means?
25 A. "Stanica milicije," most probably, "police station."
1 Q. And I'm continuing to read:
2 "And there were several wounded. And then from N Kasaba up to K
3 Polje, was covered by elements of the Protection Regiment."
4 My question is: According to your best recollection, would this
5 description of the deployment of the units along the road,
6 Kravica-Konjevic Polje, agree with what you remember? Would that
7 correspond to what your recollection was?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And would looking at this document jog your memory as
10 to the fact that this happened on the 12th, in the evening, as you said?
11 A. Yes, as far as I can remember.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 12th, in the
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. On the 12th, so starting from the first assignment which was
17 searching the terrain and then to the second assignment, to secure the
18 road, at any point in time, did you see General Mladic at any of those
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to deal with the 13th. I would just
22 like to ask, Your Honours, to look at this same document and then in the
23 English version, only in the English version, could we move to page 3,
24 this is the second paragraph which states -- the second paragraph, it
25 says in the report:
1 "Forces of the VRS mostly regrouped in order to go to Zepa."
2 I'm asking you now if you recall whether, on the 13th, on the
3 road that you are talking about, while carrying out your assignment to
4 secure the road, did you ever see any members of the VRS there?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell me, in your best
7 recollection, at what point in time, if you did see that at all, did your
8 unit have any prisoners?
9 A. I didn't understand this.
10 Q. All right. I'm going to rephrase the question, perhaps it's
11 complex. On the 13th of July, so the following day, at any point in time
12 did you see prisoners in the sector where you were?
13 A. I personally did not.
14 Q. If I were to tell you the term "Sandici meadow,"
15 "livada Sandici," would you be able to remember where that location was
16 that I'm asking you about?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then I'm going to ask you this: Whether your position, your
19 personal position, was between the Kravica warehouse and the Sandici
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. And I'm asking you this because you said that at one
23 point your commander, Rade Cuturic, came to you and said that a group of
24 prisoners was going to pass down that road. Do you remember at which
25 point in time, on the 13th of July, was this, according to your best
2 A. Perhaps it was sometime in the afternoon.
3 Q. Did he tell you what was the number of the prisoners involved?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did he tell you who would be escorting these prisoners?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he tell you if they were to pass by in vehicles or on foot?
8 A. If I remember correctly, he said that they were to pass on foot.
9 Q. Was there any reason why you should be apprehensive of these
11 A. Well, no.
12 Q. Did you leave the area before the prisoners were taken through?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did other members of the unit stay behind to perform the task
15 that they were given earlier, i.e. to secure that road?
16 A. Yes, if I remember well, they did.
17 Q. At one point in your statement you mention Zuti Most,
18 Yellow Bridge. Is the Yellow Bridge the feature where you gathered on
19 the 12th of July to set out to perform your task, securing the
20 Kravica-Konjevic Polje road?
21 A. Yes. There is one such bridge in Potocari and there is also one
22 in Kravica. It's yellow in colour.
23 Q. Did Rade Cuturic take you in his vehicle directly to that bridge
24 that you refer to as the Yellow Bridge?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did he tell you that that was to be the place where you would
2 stop any traffic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In your statement, you say that you heard that at this location,
5 and you referred to the Kravica-Konjevic Polje road, General Mladic and
6 Ljubisa Borovcanin were present at some point in time. Who did you hear
7 this from?
8 A. I don't remember, but I do remember that they were in the field
9 around Srebrenica and around Bratunac, specifically in -- for the Kravica
10 and Sandici areas, I didn't hear that they were there. I don't remember.
11 Q. When you say location, you mean the area of Srebrenica and
12 Bratunac; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you at any point see General Mladic pass by on the
15 13th of July, pass by that particular road?
16 A. No, as far as I remember, I didn't.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you, before you set out with Rade Cuturic, have
18 occasion to see clashes and exchange of fire between the positions held
19 by the 28th Division column and the police forces on that day?
20 A. Yes. There was gunfire.
21 Q. What sort of gunfire was it? Was it only infantry weapons, or
22 was heavy -- were heavy weapons used?
23 A. Well, there was infantry weapons and mortars.
24 Q. At a certain point, having left you behind near the bridge,
25 Rade Cuturic gave you the communication device that you referred to as a
1 Motorola; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us if that belonged to him or he took it off
4 somebody else and kept his own communication device?
5 A. He probably took it from somebody else. He had his own Motorola.
6 Q. Did he explain to you in any detail what the reasons were as to
7 why you should stop the flow of traffic?
8 A. Yes. The reason being that this should enable the prisoners to
9 be escorted to the farming co-operative in Kravica.
10 Q. What is your best estimate, how long did you stay at the bridge
11 after receiving this task from Rade Cuturic?
12 A. If I recall correctly, an hour.
13 Q. During that one hour, if you recall, was there unhindered flow of
14 traffic along that road?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. This is my next question, and please tell me to the best of your
17 recollection: Did you first receive an order to stop the flow of traffic
18 and only then heard heavy shooting that you described to the Prosecution,
19 or was the sequence of events the other way around?
20 A. Yes. I first received an order, and then there was gunfire.
21 Q. In your estimate, how much time passed from the point you
22 received this order to stop the flow of traffic to the time when shooting
24 A. I can't remember.
25 Q. Can you tell us how you came to learn that a member of your
1 detachment was harmed?
2 A. Well, when our commander came to see me, he was on his way to
3 Bratunac, he told me briefly what had happened and that Krsto was killed.
4 Q. Let me take you one step back. Did you hear on your
5 communication system in code anything that would indicate to you that
6 someone from your unit came in harm's way?
7 A. Yes. We had a code indicating that the -- one of our men was
8 either wounded or killed. And the code name was "snala," s-n-a-l-a,
9 meaning hair clip.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with the
11 assistance of our dear Janet can we see a clip from 1447?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I use the -- it was still present on our
13 screens, the last document, that is the Borovcanin report.
14 Witness, could I ask you to read the last line before -- and
15 we -- and that it's -- for you it is the last line of the page which is
16 on the screen now, for you where it reads:
17 "One member of the Skelani Platoon of the 2nd Special
18 Police Detachment was killed in the fighting with the enemy."
19 Now, apart from Krle or Krsto, as you called him, were there any
20 other members from the Skelani Platoon killed during that day?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now if I now then read that line that he was killed
23 in the fighting with the enemy, that does not reflect what you learned
24 about the way in which he died, is it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So you consider that if someone is kept prisoner,
2 grabs the weapon of one of the persons guarding him and shooting him, you
3 consider that to be -- to be killed in the fighting with the enemy?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Even if those persons are civilians, those who are
6 kept there?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I haven't understood
8 you well.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, do you consider fighting with the enemy also
10 any conflict arising in a detention situation with one of the detained
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right. That would not be
13 it. Killed in combat would mean that there was an exchange of fire, in
14 my understanding.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that was not the situation?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was not.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will
19 go back to this document later, precisely in the way you indicated now,
20 and then I will tender it. Can we now look at P1147.
21 MR. SHIN: If I may, just one quick point, Your Honour. The
22 document that my colleague Mr. Stojanovic has been using is, I believe,
23 identical to what has been admitted already under P00724. So that may
24 obviate the necessity of tendering that document and may ease references
25 to this document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a look at it.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Once more can we
4 have P1147? This is the Srebrenica trial video. And can we see the time
5 sequence from 25.53 to 26.00.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. Let me ask you this: Was it possible for you to hear what the
9 participants in this conversation said?
10 A. Just the -- a moment.
11 Q. Can we replay it? It's a very brief clip. Please direct your
12 attention to what is being said and the road. So we need from 25.53 to
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Sir, this is my first question: Two names are mentioned here,
17 Oficir and Bor. Can you tell us, do you know who was called Oficir from
18 those participated in this conversation?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who was that?
21 A. Oficir is the nickname --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Probably the sixth time that we are focusing on what
23 is Oficir. So therefore if you want to do it the seventh time, it's your
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I only
1 wanted to have it said for the sake of this radio conversation.
2 Q. So Rade Cuturic is Oficir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know who had the code name of Bor for the purposes of
6 A. As far as I remember, Bor was the name for the deputy commander
7 of our brigade, Ljubomir Borovcanin.
8 Q. Were you able to recognise the voice of the individual saying
9 that traffic should be stopped?
10 A. No. It's not familiar to me.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P1132 in
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, could we perhaps not with the
15 level of sound as we have, could we play this same few seconds?
16 [Video-clip played]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We hear of a third name, Todor. Is that a
18 name familiar to you, apart from Bor and Oficir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. While you still have this image in front of you, can you tell us
24 if you recognise the area and the road along which this vehicle is
1 A. No. It might be a stretch of the road between Bratunac and
2 Konjevic Polje.
3 Q. Very well.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P1132 in
5 e-court, please.
6 Q. This is from the Jean-Rene Ruez collection, as we refer to it,
7 and could we please look at page 94 in e-court?
8 Sir, please look at the image. Does this area and this building
9 located in the red square seem to you that it could be the Kravica
10 warehouse and the Sandici-Konjevic Polje road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And this building to the left of the road in the central, lower
13 part of the building, look to you like the building that was close to the
14 Sandici meadow which you said you know where it was?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I'm going to finish with a question, if the buildings and
17 houses in the central area of the photograph, to the left of the Kravica
18 warehouse, could be the village of Kravica?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please now, with the assistance of the usher, mark in
21 this photograph the location where you were at the point in time when
22 Rade Cuturic drove you to the feature that you refer to as Zuti Most,
23 Yellow Bridge? Could you please mark the area where you were?
24 A. It was approximately here, on this part of the road. There was a
25 kind of reinforcing wall. I can't see it here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's a little bit a difficult
2 question to ask someone where he was when he was driven to a certain
3 point, because it's inherent to being driven somewhere that you are not
4 at one spot. Or did you intend to ask the witness where he was before he
5 was driven to?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.
7 "Before," I did not say the word "before." So before he boarded
8 Rade Cuturic's vehicle.
9 Q. Is that the place that you marked now?
10 A. Approximately, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. And could you please tell the Trial Chamber in your
12 best recollection how far this is from the Kravica warehouse?
13 A. Perhaps about 1 kilometre, a thousand metres. Perhaps more.
14 Q. Thank you. And if you can approximately see that on this
15 photograph, are you able to mark with a circle the place where, in your
16 best recollection, Zuti Most was; i.e. where you got out of the vehicle?
17 A. Yellow Bridge or Zuti Most, is in the very centre of Kravica
18 village. Perhaps it's approximately here. Or perhaps a bit farther,
19 higher in the image, approximately.
20 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber in your best recollection how
21 far this Yellow Bridge is from the Kravica warehouse?
22 A. About 8-, 900 metres, 1 kilometre, in my estimate.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you please put ZM here the next this circle?
24 A. Oh, you mean next to the Zuti Most?
25 Q. Yes. That is correct.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And for the transcript, the
3 circle that is below the red square on this photograph is the area that
4 the witness indicated was the area where he was before he got into
5 Rade Cuturic's vehicle. Thank you.
6 And, Your Honours, I would like to tender this document.
7 MR. SHIN: No objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked by the witness receives number
10 D305, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. And one more question, Mr. Pepic. From the place where you were,
14 that you call Zuti Most, is it possible visually to see the Kravica
16 A. Yes, the upper part of it, the roof, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. And at any point in time, while you were waiting for
18 the order to halt traffic, were you able to see any movements of
19 prisoners along the road?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell the Trial Chamber - returning to
22 the chronology of events - how long after you heard more intensive firing
23 that was coming from the direction of the warehouse, did Rade Cuturic
24 pass by you in his vehicle?
25 A. I don't remember how much time passed.
1 Q. And by that time, did you already stop the traffic and the
2 vehicles along that road?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was Rade Cuturic alone in the vehicle that came past you?
5 A. I don't remember. I remember that his hands were wrapped in
6 bandages but I don't remember if he was by himself or not.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us how long the conversation between you
9 A. It was very short. He was rushing off to the medical centre. He
10 didn't stay long.
11 Q. He didn't issue any new instructions to you about letting traffic
12 pass or not pass along the road?
13 A. No.
14 Q. He told you that there was firing on the Muslims or Muslims were
15 being fired upon. Did he say anything else except that, perhaps
16 regarding the place where this was happening?
17 A. No. All he said was that there was shooting.
18 Q. According to your statement, sometime later, about an hour later,
19 Rade Cuturic came back. Is that a good estimate of time still today when
20 you're testifying?
21 A. Yes, approximately, yes.
22 Q. And for that entire hour, was shooting heard from that direction?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did the intensity of the shooting change or was it continuous?
25 A. It would change, yes.
1 Q. At any point in time, while you were on the bridge, after
2 Rade Cuturic passed, did you see any other vehicle that was coming from
3 the direction of Kravica?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. On the way back, did Rade Cuturic in any way say anything to you
6 as he passed by you on Zuti Most?
7 A. No. All he said was to stay there until he tells me.
8 Q. How long after he passed by did you receive a new order to let
9 the traffic pass?
10 A. I don't remember how much time passed, but it was very soon
11 after, if I remember correctly. I cannot remember the precise time.
12 Q. After he passed by you on his way back to Sandici and Kravica
13 again, at one point in time did the shooting stop?
14 A. As far as I remember, yes.
15 Q. After you let the traffic through, how long did you then stay at
16 this place that you call Zuti Most?
17 A. Not long. Our bus came by, I boarded the bus, and --
18 Q. And other than you, was there anybody else assigned to that task
19 given to you by Rade Cuturic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You didn't see any military formations there next to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And now this is something that is confusing me the whole time.
24 This bus that you boarded, which direction did it come from?
25 A. It came from the direction of Bratunac.
1 Q. Do you know actually where the bus was before all of these
3 A. No. I don't know whether it was in Bratunac or if it was closer.
4 Q. Do you know the name of the driver of the bus?
5 A. There were a number of them. I don't remember exactly which
6 driver it was then. We had several drivers. I don't know who was
7 driving then.
8 Q. At the point in time when he came to Zuti Most in the village of
9 Kravica and you boarded the bus, were there any other members of your
10 detachment, the Sekovici detachment, on the bus?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. You described passing by the Kravica warehouse. What I want to
13 ask you now is this: At the time, did you see any persons in military
14 uniforms or in police uniforms in front of the Kravica warehouse?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. How many people were there?
17 A. I don't know. No, I don't remember. There were some.
18 Q. Was it already beginning to get dark?
19 A. As far as I remember, yes.
20 Q. So you didn't stay long, you just passed by in your bus?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And where did the bus stop to pick up the other members of the
23 2nd Detachment?
24 A. In Sandici.
25 Q. In relation to the meadow that you talked about and said you knew
1 where it was, was it from the direction that you were coming in on the
2 bus? Was it before the Sandici meadow or after the Sandici meadow, on
3 the way to Konjevic Polje?
4 A. Well, it was at the elevation in Sandici. Then the meadow would
5 be to the right of that.
6 Q. At that point in time, did you see if there were any prisoners
8 A. I don't see -- I don't remember seeing any, no.
9 Q. I have to ask you this because of other witnesses who will be
10 coming: Are you able to tell us now if you paid any attention at all to
11 whether there were any prisoners or anyone on the Sandici meadow or not?
12 A. No, I wasn't paying attention.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, would you allow me to put one
14 additional question to the witness.
15 Witness, you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 "... did you see any persons in military uniforms or in police
17 uniforms in front of the Kravica warehouse?"
18 And your answer was:
19 "Yes, I did."
20 Can you tell me, did you see military and police uniforms there,
21 that means both types of uniforms?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only noticed military uniforms in
23 front of the warehouse.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. And can you tell me whether at any point in time you received
2 information that you were relieved by members of the Jahorina training
3 centre at your positions?
4 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
5 Q. Are you going to agree with me that they were in military
6 camouflage uniforms at that time?
7 A. Yes, they were wearing those uniforms.
8 Q. And do you know that there were cases before the
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina court where members of the Jahorina training centre
10 were tried for events that we are discussing here now?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And would you agree with me that you also appeared as a witness
13 in those cases?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And now, I want to ask you this. At the point in
16 time when members of your detachment, the 2nd Sekovici Detachment, were
17 boarding the bus, did you notice any members of the 3rd Platoon, your
18 3rd Platoon that you called the Skelani Platoon boarding the bus together
19 with you?
20 A. I don't remember that they were boarding the bus with us. They
21 had their own separate vehicle. I don't recall them boarding our bus.
22 Q. Then I'm going to ask you a little differently. The members of
23 the Skelani Platoon or the 3rd Platoon, did you see them the following
24 day in Konjevic Polje or were they in some other location because of the
25 death of members of their unit?
1 A. I don't recall seeing them.
2 Q. Which platoon of the 2nd Sekovici Detachment did Krsto also known
3 as Krle belong to?
4 A. It was the 3rd Platoon.
5 Q. Next you headed in the direction of Konjevic Polje and Drinjaca;
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes, in the direction of Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. If the chronology is right the night between the 13th and 14th,
9 where did you sleep, where were you billeted?
10 A. We were billeted in abandoned Muslim houses in Konjevic Polje.
11 Q. Do you remember if that night or on the following day, at any
12 point you saw any prisoners in Konjevic Polje?
13 A. No, I don't remember.
14 Q. Can you tell us, at which time during your stay in Konjevic Polje
15 did Rade Cuturic come to see you?
16 A. Sometime in the evening. It was dark. That much I remember.
17 Q. By that point, had you learned more about what had, in fact,
18 happened in front of the Kravica warehouse?
19 A. As far as I remember, no.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be
21 referring to some other documents so I would kindly ask that we take our
22 break now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We will take the break now, but I first -- first of
24 all, the witness can follow the usher. We will take a break of
25 20 minutes, Witness.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what you had uploaded at
3 65 ter 04082 is an incomplete version with all kind of underlinings of
4 what has been admitted into evidence as P00724. Therefore, there is no
5 need to have it again in evidence.
6 We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.44 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Pepic, if you remember, we left for the break when we were
14 discussing Konjevic Polje and the arrival of Rade Cuturic to the building
15 where you were billeted. Can you now tell us in your own words to the
16 best of your recollection what it was that Rade told you? How did that
17 incident in front of the Kravica warehouse unfold?
18 A. From what I remember, when he came he told us how Krle was
19 killed. He happened to be in the midst of the Muslims who had
20 surrendered. One of the Muslims grabbed his rifle from him and killed
21 him. Oficir took the rifle by the barrel, and he burned his fist in the
22 process, the palm of his hand.
23 Q. Before the rifle was seized and Krsto was killed, were any
24 prisoners being killed? Did Rade tell you anything about it?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did he tell you what became of the body of late Krsto, aka Krle?
2 A. I don't remember exactly what he said about what happened.
3 Q. Do you remember if, at any point in time during your stay at the
4 Yellow Bridge in Kravica, did a vehicle pass by which could have carried
5 the body of Krle or Krsto?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not whether a vehicle passed by but whether it could
8 have carried a body. Of course, every vehicle can carry a body. That's
9 specific for vehicles, as a matter of fact, that they can carry persons,
10 hidden or not hidden. Could you please ask focused and relevant
11 questions, Mr. Stojanovic?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll try to be more specific.
13 Perhaps there was some problem with interpretation.
14 Q. At any point during your presence at the Yellow Bridge, did you
15 observe the arrival of a vehicle from the direction of --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if you are receiving some comments
17 on your questions, and if you then say it is a translation problem, then
18 I always want that to be substantiated because there is a risk -- I'm not
19 saying you did -- but there is a risk that our good interpreters are
20 blamed for whatever goes wrong in this courtroom, and that is something I
21 would not accept for a second.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is not my
24 objective. Can we look at P1477 in e-court.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I interrupted. Perhaps we first receive an answer
1 to the question you put to the witness:
2 "... did you observe the arrival of a vehicle from the direction
3 of --"
4 Mr. Stojanovic, which direction did you point at?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. From the direction of Kravica, after the departure of
7 Rade Cuturic?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to look at P1477.
11 And I'd like to ask that it not be broadcast. Can we have the next page?
12 Your Honour, this is a logbook of the health -- of a health
13 centre. We were already looking that the document. Thank you.
14 Q. Sir, let's look at the row numbered 1490, under date of wounding,
15 can you see that, it's in the upper left-hand corner?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Under date of wounding it reads, 13 July 1994, at 1740 hours.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Then, in the column first name, father's name, last name and
20 rank, it reads, "Krsto," or rather, it reads, "Rade, son of
21 Milan Cuturic." Would this time indicated here, i.e. 1740 hours, be
22 consistent with your memory of when Rade Cuturic passed along the way
23 where you were on his way to Bratunac?
24 A. Yes, that could be the time.
25 Q. Tell the Chamber, since you are familiar with the area, under
1 ordinary circumstances, how long would it take to get from Kravica to the
2 Bratunac health centre, going by car?
3 A. Some 30 to 40 minutes.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due
5 respect, page 74, line 19, it says "30 to 40 minutes." I think the
6 witness gave a different answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you again tell us how much time it would
8 take under normal circumstances to get from Kravica to the Bratunac
9 health centre, by car? Could you repeat your answer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 20 to 30 minutes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Can we look at the next column now, or actually, the next row,
14 1491? 13 July 1995, at 1900 hours, first and last name, Krsto,
15 Dragicevic, son of Bogoljub. The time indicated here, 1900 hours, and in
16 view of your earlier answer, would it reflect the time when he was harmed
17 or when he arrived at the Bratunac health centre?
18 A. I don't know.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I ask that this specific entry in the B/C/S
20 version could be enlarged? That means the second column in relation to
21 1491. No, only the entry in the middle, yes, 1491. Could only the entry
22 in the second column 1491 be enlarged? Thank you.
23 Witness, would you consider this to be 1900 hours or is it a
24 different one?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It looks like a 9, 1900 hours.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. But would you agree that there was,
2 before the 9 was written, another number beneath that one?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. One could say that there was.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. If you look at it more closely, now that it's enlarged, is it
7 possible that number 8 was rewritten into 9?
8 A. Yes, it could be an 8.
9 Q. Thank you. At any rate, now that you've seen this document, do
10 you still stand by your position that at --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again, and again, the Defence has
12 brought to our attention that every single word containing an opinion
13 would be expertise. Well, the Chamber is relatively flexible on that.
14 Now, is it the Defence's position that the 9 comes after the 8 or does it
15 also allow for the possibility that the 8 comes after the 9? I mean,
16 which was written first, which was written second? Is there -- that is
17 really something that requires expert knowledge and opinion. What is now
18 the position of the Defence, that it's both possible or -- apart from
19 dealing with it with the witness, the witness apparently doesn't know
20 anything about it and is invited to comment on what you see, what the
21 Chamber sees and what the Prosecution sees, and what the witness sees.
22 He's not in any position to judge better on this matter than anyone else.
23 Would you agree with that?
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would completely agree,
25 Your Honours. The witness can only testify about what he heard and saw.
1 And I'm interested in the time that is in the logbook in relation to what
2 he heard and what he saw.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what you were asking him is to do
4 something different, that is to interpret two numbers which are
5 apparently the one over the other or the other way around. That's what
6 you were asking the witness. Please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Q. I'm just trying to get an answer to my question whether you, sir,
9 stand by what you said that when he was passing by, Rade Cuturic told you
10 that Krle was killed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you stand by what you said that Rade Cuturic passed by you at
13 some point in time at approximately 1700 hours and 40 minutes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would like to ask you the following: According to your best
16 recollection, how much time did you spend in Konjevic Polje?
17 A. Till the afternoon perhaps.
18 Q. So it would be good to conclude that you spent the night and then
19 the following day in the afternoon?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So what was your next order?
22 A. The next order was that we were being sent to Zvornik, and then
23 we were sent to the sector of Baljkovica. It's a place not far from
25 Q. Did members of the Jahorina training centre set off with you as
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. And members of the Jahorina training centre, at any point in
4 time, were they together with you in Konjevic Polje?
5 A. No. I wouldn't say so. I don't remember.
6 Q. According to your best recollection, can you please tell us what
7 sort of a unit are we talking about when we say the Jahorina training
8 centre unit?
9 A. Well, I don't know what to say. They were members of the
10 Special Police force. I don't know what kind of a training was meant.
11 I really couldn't tell you anything about the unit, the status or the
13 Q. Did you at any point in time see along the road or at Zuti bridge
14 in Potocari any units with canines?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Do you know if in July 1995 there was a canine police unit part
17 of the MUP units that trained and used dogs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you please tell us which this unit -- what exactly -- which
20 unit this was in July 1995?
21 A. It was a unit located at Crepoljsko. It was a unit, I don't know
22 the exact name of the unit but they were for the training, the use of
23 dogs for official duties.
24 Q. Did you ever see this unit with dogs out in the field anywhere?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Who issued the order for you to set off towards Zvornik on the
2 14th in the afternoon?
3 A. Our commander, Rade Cuturic, Oficir.
4 Q. And did you stop off in Zvornik for any point in time before
5 going to Baljkovica?
6 A. Just briefly, because we continued on to the Baljkovica sector
7 almost right away.
8 Q. And was Rade Cuturic still on duty in view of the injuries that
9 he had sustained?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he tell you at any point in time that he sustained the
12 injuries from a rifle that was confiscated or seized from Krsto,
13 aka Krle?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever have information about a person by the name of
16 Miroslav Stanojevic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can we now look at the document that you see in front of you,
19 this is P1477. We will look at 1489, that entry of the
20 13th of July, 1995, at 1730 hours, Miroslav Stanojevic was wounded, a
21 member of the Red Beret units n Kravica. What I want to ask you now is
22 this? Can one reach Bratunac from the village of Kravica using some
23 other road other than the asphalt road that passes along Yellow Bridge
24 where you were?
25 A. Yes, you can.
1 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what route that would be?
2 A. There is a macadam road up there, I don't know exactly, and you
3 can go all the way down to this place. I don't know what -- what it's
4 called. And then you can reach Zvornik -- no. You can reach Bratunac.
5 Q. When you say the village of Kravica, would you agree with me that
6 this is a broader area that includes a number of hamlets?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it correct that the column of the 28th Division or a part of
9 it passed right next to the village of Kravica?
10 A. I heard that it did, yes.
11 Q. And you ever hear anything from Rade Cuturic about a person by
12 the name of Miroslav Stanojevic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. At any point in time, did Rade Cuturic tell you anything about
15 who was in front of the Kravica warehouse when this incident occurred?
16 A. No. I don't remember that.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Which incident are you referring to, Mr. -- the
19 killing of Krle or the shooting or anything in relation to
20 Mr. Stanojevic? What are you referring to?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I was not
22 precise enough when I said incident. What I was referring to was the
23 death of Krsto in that moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's how you understood the question and that's
25 how you answered it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Before you left to go in the field to Baljkovica, did you at any
5 point in time notice the return of the 3rd Platoon or the
6 Skelani Platoon, as we refer to it?
7 A. No. As far as I can remember, no.
8 Q. Do you know that the platoon was allowed to go to the village of
9 Skelani for the funeral?
10 A. That's what happened most probably, yes.
11 Q. At one point you said that you stayed a little bit in Zvornik.
12 So now I'm asking you: Can you remember actually where you were
14 A. We were around the old bridge, which is where the bus station is
15 presently. But we stayed there very, very briefly and then we were sent
16 on our way.
17 Q. And Rade Cuturic, as your superior, was he with you at that time,
18 or did he go off somewhere?
19 A. I don't remember if he was with us the entire time, but he was
20 with us.
21 Q. And do you know from whom Rade Cuturic received instructions
22 which he conveyed to you, that you should go to Baljkovica?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. And can you please tell me, can you please tell us, what was the
25 specific assignment that you received from Rade Cuturic when you were on
1 the way to Baljkovica?
2 A. The assignment was to send us to the village or the settlement of
3 Baljkovica which is where the Serbian positions were, and to help them
4 out, help out the Serbs on the positions, and to try to stop the Muslims
5 that were trying to break through to Tuzla.
6 Q. And were you told anything about the strength of the column that
7 was moving towards Tuzla?
8 A. We were told that there was a large number of armed soldiers and
9 that there was a large number of civilians together with them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I was hinting at the clock but I don't know whether
11 you had any -- yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to clarify, you're saying here at page 81
13 that you were sent to go and help some -- to help out the Serbs on the
14 positions. What Serbs were these that you were helping, Serb civilians
15 or what?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb soldiers, the Serb soldiers
17 who were holding the positions around the location of Baljkovica, Serbian
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Serbian soldiers of which army? Serbian soldiers
20 of which army?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb army, the
22 Army of Republika Srpska.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you were working in co-operation with them?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were sent to help them out.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before we adjourn, Witness, I would
2 like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about your
3 testimony or communicate in whatever other way with whomever, whether
4 that's testimony already given or still to be given. We would like see
5 you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. You may follow
6 the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us where you are in
9 terms of time?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think up to half
11 an hour more.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic, I conferred with my
13 colleagues, and a moderate assessment of 60 per cent of the questions
14 where we really do not know what the relevance is, should have resulted
15 in already having finished the cross-examination of this witness today.
16 Nevertheless, you'll have another half an hour tomorrow, but please keep
17 in mind that if you put questions to the witness of which we do not know
18 what the relevance is, that it is most likely not supporting the Defence
20 We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
21 11th of June at 9.30 in this same Courtroom I.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of June
24 2013, at 9.30 a.m.