1 Tuesday, 11 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.58 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I'd like to inform the
10 parties that the late start this morning is due to a non-functioning
11 cable which had to be replaced before we could proceed.
12 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 Welcome to you, Mr. Petrovic, as well.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we proceed in the first session for
16 one hour, that means that we would take a break at 11.00. Meanwhile
17 could I inquire with the Defence whether there is any report about P1483,
18 which is the split-screen comparison of the video footage of the white
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, if I recollect correctly that was the
21 split screen used with Mr. Blaszczyk.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. IVETIC: We have no objection to that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P1483 is admitted into evidence.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pepic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pepic, I'd like to remind you that you're still
4 bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your
5 testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
6 the truth.
7 WITNESS: MILENKO PEPIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pepic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. If I remember correctly, we ended our working day yesterday as we
15 discussed your next task, which meant deployment to the Zvornik
16 municipality; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Please tell us how many members of your detachment set off at
19 that point to perform the task in the Baljkovica sector?
20 A. I don't know the exact number but there was the 1st Detachment
21 and elements of the -- our 2nd Detachment and logistics, mortars.
22 Q. Can you remember if any of the hardware that you had at your
23 disposal was used in combat?
24 A. As far as I remember, mortars were. I don't know about the rest.
25 Q. Please tell the Chamber if you can remember what the task
1 consisted of specifically, what were your duties?
2 A. We received an order dispatching out -- dispatching us from
3 Zvornik to Baljkovica to help the Serbian forces which were manning
4 positions in the area, and to try and stop the breakthrough of the Muslim
5 forces which were making their way out of Srebrenica. That's as much --
6 that's as much as I remember.
7 Q. As you arrived in the field, who defined your disposition?
8 A. Well, we received all our orders from the detachment commander,
9 Mr. Cuturic, Oficir.
10 Q. Did you at some point observe the column of the 28th Division?
11 A. No, I don't remember.
12 Q. How long did you stay at these positions?
13 A. Before we reached these positions, we spent the night on our way
14 to Baljkovica. I don't know exactly where it was. There was heavy rain
15 and severe weather. That's why I remember it.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question has not been answered,
17 Mr. Stojanovic. Can we try to get an answer?
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was: How long did you stay at that
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, we spent
22 the night on our way and then on the following day we took up these
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: And when you took up the positions, how long were
25 you on the positions?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly, an hour at most.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that your question, Mr. Stojanovic?
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance.
4 Q. This is my next question: When one hour passed and you were
5 there, did you receive another order?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what was that order?
8 A. If I remember correctly, the order was to abort all combat
9 activities and to withdraw to the nearby hills surrounding Baljkovica in
10 order to make way for the Muslim civilians and soldiers who were making
11 their way, breaking out of the area in the direction of Tuzla.
12 Q. Were you told who it was who had achieved a truce with the other
14 A. I don't think so. I don't remember.
15 Q. Did you carry out the order?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. From the position where you were, were you able to see the column
18 of the 28th Division pass by?
19 A. No. I wasn't able to see it, but I did hear --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's now the second time that you
21 are -- in your question you are incorporating a reference to the column
22 of the 28th Division. Now, the witness told us about Muslim civilians
23 and soldiers who were making their way, breaking out of the area. Now,
24 your question may create confusion. We have heard quite some evidence
25 about a column of people which was of mixed composition in most of the
1 evidence we heard, and then to ask about a column of the 28th Division
2 might confuse. So would you always clearly elicit from this witness or
3 any other witness what the column -- how the column was -- of what the
4 column was composed so as to know whether it was civilian or purely
5 military or whatever. Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That will be my next
8 Q. What did you hear, Mr. Pepic? You said that you heard the column
9 pass by.
10 A. I heard, as probably did the other members of the unit, that they
11 were rejoicing, opening fire to demonstrate their joy, if I remember
13 Q. How long did you stay at this position?
14 A. I don't recall specifically, but very soon we received another
15 order to retreat to the base at Sehovici.
16 Q. Throughout that time, your detachment was not involved in any
17 combat with that group that was coming that way?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you. When this particular task was over, you said that you
20 returned to the base. What base was that? Where was it physically?
21 A. Our base was in the town of Sehovici at Lomnica hotel.
22 Q. Did you at any point find out whether an investigation was
23 launched within the police structures about the events surrounding the
24 Kravica warehouse?
25 A. Not at the time, no.
1 Q. When did you learn that proceedings were initiated against some
2 of the members of your unit?
3 A. I don't recall exactly, but when one of the members of our
4 detachment was arrested, we found out that there was an investigation
6 Q. Do you know how many members of your detachment were found guilty
7 and convicted in the meantime?
8 A. I don't know exactly. Ten, perhaps 12.
9 Q. Mr. Pepic, did you have an opportunity to learn at any time how
10 many victims of the fighting around Zvornik there were?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions for you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I have one additional question. You
15 said you were not engaged in any combat activities against those groups,
16 I think it was said. Now, the use of mortars, which you earlier told us
17 about, what targets were chosen for those -- for the use of those
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, but the
20 positions of the Serbian army were shelled from the Muslim side, from the
21 Muslim positions, and I suppose that the positions of the Muslim army
22 were in turn shelled by our own forces. That's as much as I remember.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But you don't know that, exactly what the targets
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly because they
1 were always behind our backs. We didn't know what the targets were that
2 they were engaging.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Shin, any need to re-examine the
5 MR. SHIN: No questions on redirect, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Prosecution has no further questions for
7 you and neither has the Chamber, this concludes your testimony in this
8 Court, Mr. Pepic. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to
9 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you
10 by the parties. I wish you a safe return home again and I think --
11 I thank Mr. Petrovic for his assistance. You may follow the usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that for the next witness where we need
15 face distortion, voice distortion and pseudonym, that we need a break
16 anyhow to prepare, especially for the voice distortion, Madam Registrar;
17 is that correct? Yes, I see it's correct.
18 Mr. Groome, anything to be raised before we take a break?
19 MR. GROOME: There is, Your Honour. There are some procedural
20 matters related to the next witness, so if the Chamber wants to deal with
21 them now the Prosecution is prepared to do that. Mr. Traldi is here in
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Shin apparently is seeking your
24 attention, Mr. Groome.
25 MR. SHIN: May I be excused, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you are --
2 MR. SHIN: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Shin.
4 Mr. Traldi, what is bothering you?
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, in its response to our Rule 92 ter
6 motion for this witness, the Defence had objected to the addition of the
7 associated exhibits to our Rule 65 ter list. If they maintain that
8 objection, then I'd be prepared to address the matter now but I would
9 inquire with them first whether they do maintain that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were six, if I'm not mistaken.
11 MR. TRALDI: I believe it's five, Your Honour, but I can check.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which is a limited number. Mr. Ivetic?
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, it is a limited number but I believe we
14 specified the nature of our objection in the filing, and we do stand by
15 those objections that were in the filed response.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Traldi has an opportunity to further
17 address the matter.
18 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour. The law on the addition of
19 documents to a party's Rule 65 ter list is comprehensively set out in
20 this Chamber's decisions and I won't go back through it here. I'd simply
21 refer to, for instance, the decision on the second Prosecution motion to
22 amend the Rule 65 ter list, 27 June 2012, or the fourth motion to amend
23 the Rule 65 ter list on 9 January 2013. In my submission, the admission
24 of these documents is clearly in the interests of justice for three
25 primary reasons: First, the Chamber has recognised that a Rule 92 ter
1 motion is an appropriate time at which to seek to add documents to a
2 party's Rule 65 ter list. I'd refer Your Honours to the
3 Status Conference of 19 January 2012 at transcript page 157.
4 Second, the Prosecution tendered the statement in accordance with
5 the Chamber's preferences, a preference that in at least one filing the
6 Defence has represented it shares. The associated exhibits should be
7 added to the 65 ter list as a matter of course and admitted to help the
8 Chamber understand and evaluate the statement.
9 Finally, these are simple documents, sketches and a marked map
10 which illustrate the witness's evidence for the Chamber, all five are
11 associated exhibits to the statement and were disclosed on DVD
12 29 July 2011, almost two years ago. The Defence has had them for more
13 than 22 months and consequently is not prejudiced by their addition.
14 That concludes my submission, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Any response, Mr. Ivetic?
17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, while the number of documents may
18 be small in number, and while the nature of the documents may be such
19 that they are, as counsel has indicated, short or simple, we must
20 remember how this case has progressed. These documents were disclosed as
21 counsel indicated not by themselves but with many other documents. They
22 were not identified for use with this witness on the Rule 65 ter list
23 that was required of the Prosecution in February of 2012. There has been
24 no explanation, no reasoning for why the Prosecution waited for over a
25 year to identify these specific documents among the thousands of
1 documents that were disclosed to the Defence to make them aware that they
2 were to be used for this witness. This is a case where the Defence has
3 been since the beginning of trial dealing with a large number of
4 documents that were late disclosed by the Prosecution, that are critical
5 documents of the nature that the Prosecution has obligations to disclose
6 and which the Defence using its personnel have been trying to process and
7 trying to come to terms with. And it is a situation where, in the
8 totality of circumstances, we have had unprecedented difficulties in
9 processing the late disclosed documents that we received just prior to
10 the start of trial, that I believe was a full two-thirds of the documents
11 that were required to be disclosed to the Defence.
12 Under those circumstances, Your Honours, we believe that it is
13 inappropriate for the Prosecution, without showing good cause as required
14 under the jurisprudence, to seek not for just this witness but for
15 several witnesses these late additions to their Rule 65 ter list, as I
16 believe this is not the only witness for whom such a request has been
17 made at such a late time. Further than that, we would just refer to the
18 written submissions that we have made on this matter. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Just one question. I'm seeking
20 clarification. Most of the documents are sketches made by the witness
21 himself and you say out of the thousands of documents, it was very
22 difficult for you to imagine that it would -- this selection, the
23 sketches made by the witness himself, were directly attached to his
24 statements, that those were the ones the Prosecution would seek to
25 tender? Is that well understood?
1 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's my understanding that that is
2 the purpose of 65 ter, that the party is supposed to give notice of
3 exhibits to be used at trial.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my question. You presented the matter
5 as if it came as a -- out of the blue, that especially these out of the
6 thousands of documents were the ones the Prosecution would like to use
7 where they are intrinsically linked to the statement and are the sketches
8 made by the witness himself. You say they do not in any way stand out as
9 the first documents you would expect to be used?
10 MR. IVETIC: No, Your Honour, that's not what I said. I'd like
11 to repeat what I said. The Prosecution did not give notice on the
12 Rule 65 ter list that these documents would be used at trial. That is
13 the purpose of Rule 65 ter. If we want to focus on the documents as
14 being simple I don't believe that's in the Rule. I don't believe that's
15 in the jurisprudence. I believe that the protections afforded under the
16 Statute and the Rules to accused need to be upheld and that is why in
17 this case, as in other cases, the Prosecution has not included these
18 materials under Rule 65 ter list, they have not given sufficient good
19 cause for why they should be added late, and, therefore, as a matter of
20 principle and according to the Rules, they should be denied.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Mr. Traldi?
23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I just wanted to correct one thing that
24 Mr. Ivetic said just now which is that the Defence hadn't been informed
25 when these documents were disclosed that they were associated with this
1 witness. Aside from the witness's name which appears on the documents,
2 the spreadsheet that we provided along with the batch 1 disclosure, as
3 I understand it -- sorry, the documents were provided, again, in batch 14
4 which was accompanied by a spreadsheet which listed the name of the
5 witness and the documents being associated to that witness. That
6 disclosure was also more than a year ago, 26 April 2012.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter, Mr. Traldi?
8 MR. TRALDI: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I suggest that we -- before we take a break,
10 I'll deal with a few matters which are still on my procedural agenda and
11 then we will take a break most likely in six minutes from now. We will
12 consider the matter raised by Mr. Traldi and in the 92 ter motion on the
13 admission of the -- no, the adding of the documents to the 65 ter list.
14 But first, I'll deal with a few other matters.
15 First, in its Rule 92 ter motion for Witness Saliha Osmanovic,
16 RM325, the Prosecution indicated that it would inter alia tender two
17 video stills bearing 65 ter numbers 13430 and 13433, which were taken
18 from the Srebrenica trial video, non-associated exhibit number P1147.
19 The video stills show Rama Osmanovic, the deceased husband of the
20 witness. While the Prosecution played a sequence from the Srebrenica
21 trial video, it did not tender the video stills with the witness during
22 her testimony on the 16th of May. Can the Prosecution confirm the
23 withdrawal of both video stills with this particular witness?
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'll check over the break and inform
25 the Chamber when we return.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the next item I'd like to briefly
2 deal with is the position of the Defence regarding to the diary of
3 Witness Mirko Trivic, that is P1467. Three weeks ago, it was on
4 23rd of May of this year, regarding this exhibit, the diary of the
5 witness of Mirko Trivic, the Prosecution identified 35 pages from it.
6 The Chamber reminded the Defence on the 29th of May that it was still
7 awaiting to hear if there were any additions or objections. The Defence
8 then said it would revisit the matter by the 30th of May but I think we
9 haven't heard since then.
10 MR. LUKIC: We do not anticipate adding any pages from that diary
11 and we do not object to have that diary included into the evidence as the
12 Prosecution proposed.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P1467 is admitted into evidence.
14 Next item is about submissions concerning demilitarisation
15 agreement. During the cross-examination of Witness Franken on the
16 7th of May, the Chamber asked the parties whether or not it was their
17 view that the demilitarised zone within Srebrenica was governed by
18 Article 60, paragraph 7, of the Additional Protocol I of the
19 Geneva Conventions. The Chamber also asked for the parties' positions
20 with regard to the validity of the demilitarisation agreement in 1995.
21 The parties indicated that they would discuss the matter and come back to
22 the Chamber, and the Chamber wonders whether the parties have any further
23 submissions to make on this subject.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do recall that we did have a
25 discussion about that, and I have the view that I think given the
1 seriousness and the importance of the matter that probably merits written
2 submission, so the Chamber would give a schedule we would be willing to
3 provide written submissions on this.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I see Mr. Stojanovic nodding yes as well. Does this
5 mean that we can receive written submissions from the Defence?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No need, Your Honours. We will,
7 of course, honour what Witness Franken said, his guidance. We will be
8 prepared to discuss with the Prosecution our -- what the position is as
9 soon as they are ready.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand from Mr. Groome that you had that
11 discussion already, or am I mistaken, Mr. Groome?
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe Mr. McCloskey spoke with --
13 and then I in turn spoke with Mr. McCloskey. I did not personally have
14 any discussions with the Mladic Defence and if I'm incorrect about the
15 discussions Mr. McCloskey had, then I accept Mr. Stojanovic's
16 representation with respect to that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic?
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: We had two meetings with Mr. McCloskey where we
19 raised this issue, but we did not come to a joint position on the issue,
20 not yet.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber would like to receive within two
22 weeks from today written submissions on the matter.
23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I briefly move to my next item. On the
25 29th of May, 2013, the Chamber inquired with the Defence whether it could
1 confirm that they do not intend to file a response to the Prosecution's
2 motion requesting admission of Mevludin Oric's evidence pursuant to
3 Rule 92 bis, a motion which was filed on the 8th of May of this year.
4 The Defence informed the Chamber that it would have to look into this and
5 was requested to come back to the Chamber at the earliest possibility.
6 Could I ask whether the Defence is able to provide the requested
7 information at this stage?
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we checked it and it is filed
9 correctly as agreed in between the Prosecution and the Defence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You say it is filed correctly as agreed. What
11 exactly is filed?
12 MR. LUKIC: The 92 bis motion --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: -- has included the statement from Mr. Oric, and
15 there was some issue of the contents of that statement, about the
16 redactions, and those redactions are correctly made and we do not object
17 to their inclusion.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the latter is because that's what the Chamber
19 was seeking that a confirmation that the Defence indeed did not intend to
20 respond. Apparently you also do not object against admission.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby on the record.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, and no objection against 92 bis
25 means that you're not insisting on the witness to be called for the
2 MR. LUKIC: No, we don't.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And you do not oppose admission into evidence.
4 Then I leave it to that. We first take a break and resume at
5 10 minutes to 11.00 and start with the next witness.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the objections against
9 adding five documents to the 65 ter list. Considering the submissions
10 made by the parties, considering the type of the documents, and the
11 burden it would put on the Defence to prepare for its cross-examination
12 of this witness, in view of these added documents, and also having
13 considered the alternative being that similar sketches would perhaps be
14 made during examination-in-chief, the Chamber denies the objection and
15 grants the request to have these five documents added to the 65 ter list.
16 For the next witness to enter the courtroom, we have briefly have
17 to go into closed session in order to make the protective measures
19 [Closed session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you could remain standing for a few seconds.
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Witness 253, before you give evidence the Rules require that you
21 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
22 I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS RM253
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated. Witness, you
3 will first be examined by Mr. Traldi, Mr. Traldi is counsel for the
4 Prosecution. You'll find him to your right.
5 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examination by Mr. Traldi:
8 Q. Good morning, sir. To start I'm going to ask that the
9 court officer call to our screens but not broadcast to the public a
10 pseudonym sheet bearing 65 ter 28943 which will have your name, your date
11 of birth and your pseudonym in this trial. Please don't read any of the
12 material on the sheet out loud but if it correctly reflects the
13 information that I mentioned just now, please affirm that by saying yes.
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd ask that 65 ter 28943 be admitted
16 as the next confidential Prosecution exhibit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic?
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28943 receives number P1546,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P1546 is admitted under seal.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the court officer now call 65 ter 28942
24 to our screens and again not broadcast the document outside the
25 courtroom. Once it's on our screen if we could zoom in on the signature
1 on the bottom right side of the first page in English.
2 Q. Sir, do you recognise that signature on the line?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And whose is it?
5 A. It is mine.
6 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the court officer call up page 11,
7 again not broadcast the page, and zoom in on the signature this time near
8 the top of the page.
9 Q. And do you recognise that signature, sir, above where it says the
11 A. Yes, I do. It is my signature.
12 Q. Did you have a chance to review your statement in preparation for
13 your testimony here today?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 28986 be called to our
16 screens and also not be broadcast. And if we could go to page 2 in
17 28986, the B/C/S is on the left.
18 Q. Sir, did you have a chance to review this document in preparation
19 for your testimony today?
20 A. Yes. I did have a chance to take a look at it.
21 Q. And does it include corrections and clarifications which you made
22 to your statement in preparation for your testimony?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Subject to those corrections and clarifications, if I were to ask
25 you the same questions that you were asked when your statement was taken,
1 would you give the same answers in substance?
2 A. Yes. The same answers, and only those answers.
3 Q. Now that you've sworn to testify truthfully, do you affirm the
4 truthfulness and accuracy of your statement?
5 A. Yes. I affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement.
6 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 28942, the statement,
7 and 28986, the chart, into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter as
8 confidential Prosecution exhibits.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, as to the 92 ter statement, as
10 proposed, we maintain our objections as set forth in our response to the
11 motion filed on 26 April 2013. The clarifications we have no additional
12 objection to the same.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The objections against admission of this statement
15 are denied.
16 Madam Registrar, could you assign numbers?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28942 receives number P1547,
18 Your Honours and document 28986 receives number P1548, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence, both under seal.
20 MR. TRALDI: And, Mr. President, I'll be using some of the
21 associated exhibits during the course of the testimony so I suggest we
22 postpone dealing with those. I seek leave now to provide a brief public
23 summary of the witness's evidence and I've explain the purpose of this
24 exercise to him.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Your proposal is accepted as far as the associated
1 exhibits are concerned and you may read a summary for the public.
2 MR. TRALDI: The witness is a survivor of the mass execution of
3 at least 1.000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys at Petkovci Dam charged at
4 scheduled incident E.7.2 of the indictment. On 11 July 1995, he and
5 thousands of other Muslims formed a column at Susnjari and attempted to
6 escape from Srebrenica to Bosnian held territory. The morning of 13 July
7 the witness and a large group of men were forced to surrender. They were
8 sent towards Konjevic Polje where soldiers took custody of them. From
9 there, they were taken to a football stadium at Kasaba. They arrived
10 around 2.00 p.m., around 2.000 men were already there. Shortly
11 thereafter, General Mladic arrived and spoke to the men. The witness was
12 then taken towards Kravica supermarket in a truck with 119 other men.
13 During the night, they were abused and some were killed. The witness
14 heard screams and bursts of gunfire.
15 The next day, the detainees were taken to a school. There, too,
16 they were abused and some were killed. That night, the detainees and
17 others held at the school were taken to a gravel area. Soldiers took
18 them out in groups and told them to fall down. When the witness fell,
19 soldiers began to fire but he was not hit. He passed out and when he
20 awoke there were other men on top of him. Another survivor spoke to him
21 and they escaped together. From a hiding place they could see the
22 execution site, a loading machine dumping bodies on to a tractor truck
23 and a dam with water behind it.
24 Your Honour, this completes the public summary of this witness's
25 evidence. I will now have a number of questions for the witness.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Sir, I want to start off with some information about you just for
4 clarity. Did you participate in the Territorial Defence?
5 A. Yes, I did, from the start, in other words from April 17, 1992,
6 up until the 16th of June 1992, I was wounded then by a shell fragment,
7 and then I left the TO.
8 Q. And did there come a time when you were remobilised?
9 A. Yes. We were remobilised on the 5th or 6th of July, again, when
10 the attack on Srebrenica began we all received orders, were mobilised, so
11 that I happened to be a member of the defence of Srebrenica when it fell.
12 Q. And just so the record is absolutely clear, were you mobilised
13 into the army at that time, sir?
14 A. Yes. I was mobilised into the army from the 5th or 6th of July,
15 I don't know the exact date, one of those two days anyway.
16 Q. Sir, with that matter addressed, I'd like to go straight to the
17 stadium at Nova Kasaba.
18 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that 65 ter 28091 be called to our
19 screens. This is an aerial view of the stadium which was used with the
20 witness in the Tolimir case.
21 Q. While that's coming up, sir, you say in paragraph 18 of your
22 statement, now Exhibit P1547, that there were armed Serb soldiers at the
23 stadium when you arrived. Do you recall about how many soldiers were at
24 the stadium?
25 A. Well, I cannot remember exactly the number at the stadium itself
1 but I can confirm that a group of about ten of them were at the
2 approaches, at the gate, which I marked with an S there. This is the
3 gate which would allow you to enter the pitch, the football pitch or the
4 stadium. And on the stadium itself I can't really tell you the exact
5 number but there were many of them. They were all around us so there was
6 a lot of -- a strong security detail.
7 Q. And, sir, you mentioned the letters S on the picture. What do
8 the Xs on the field represent?
9 A. The Xs represent people, our men, who had been captured, the men
10 who had headed towards Tuzla. We were captured and held there at the
12 Q. And you describe in P1547 General Mladic arriving and addressing
13 your group. About how far away from him were you while he was speaking?
14 A. When I first saw him, I can confirm to you that I was at the
15 place which I marked with a Y, about there, so I was at the very end of
16 the stadium viewed from the Konjevic Polje direction. He appeared on the
17 left-hand side, to the left of us, I can show it here on the screen. He
18 was some ten metres or so away from me. He passed through there. And
19 that was the first time that I saw him. In other words, he came from
20 behind us and he walked towards the field in the direction of
21 Nova Kasaba. If you can see that white area on the image, I think those
22 were the bleachers, but I can mark it here, if you like.
23 Q. If that would benefit the Chamber, then, yes, please mark where
24 General Mladic was.
25 A. Yes. So he moved in this direction, and he stood in front of us,
1 about here. I will put a -- perhaps I can mark this with a letter?
2 Q. Perhaps a letter M, sir.
3 A. M, then.
4 Q. Now, I'd ask you to put the pen down. Did you notice anything
5 happening outside the stadium while General Mladic was speaking?
6 A. We could see the road and buses moving along that road, buses and
7 trucks, loaded with men -- women and children. They were being taken
8 towards Kladanj. Now, at the stadium itself, it was totally quiet.
9 Nobody was saying anything so we were all seated, we were sitting on the
10 ground, and it was total silence.
11 Q. Sir, could you tell if General Mladic also noticed those buses?
12 A. Yes. He certainly would have noticed them, and he did mention
13 it; in fact, he said that their buses were transporting the women and
14 children and that we too would be reunited with them at some later point.
15 First he criticised us and then he addressed us to this effect.
16 Q. And that matter is addressed in your statement, sir. In
17 paragraph 21 of that statement -- you say that as you were taken out of
18 the stadium a soldier told some people, "You won't need your bags any
19 more." Did you hear this yourself?
20 A. Yes. I heard it myself. There was a man before me who asked for
21 his bag, he wanted to take it, but this soldier from among the group of
22 ten that I mentioned earlier who were at the gate, they were armed, he
23 told him, "As if you will need that bag again."
24 Q. And what did you take from that, sir?
25 A. I realised at that point that we were going to be taken somewhere
1 to be executed and that our chances of survival were small.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 28091 as now marked by
3 the witness as the next public Prosecution exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic?
5 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 65 ter 28091, an aerial photograph already marked by
7 the witness but now additionally marked by the witness would receive,
8 Madam Registrar, number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Number P1549, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1549 is admitted into evidence.
11 Do we need to have it under seal, Mr. Traldi?
12 MR. TRALDI: I don't believe there is anything on it that
13 identifies the witness, no, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps as a guidance for next time, if we do a
15 second round of markings, perhaps he could use a different colour, so
16 that it's clear what is newly marked. What was newly marked here was a
17 line heading to one of the goals in the upper part of the photograph and
18 the addition of the letter M to that, whereas the Ss and the Xs and the
19 position where the witness said he was were already marked on this
20 photograph from before.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.
23 Q. Witness, from the stadium, you describe being taken towards
24 Kravica supermarket. In paragraphs 22 and 23 of P1547, you describe Serb
25 soldiers who were present at the supermarket. Did you see any of them
1 wearing uniforms?
2 A. Yes. They were all wearing uniforms, and they were all armed.
3 Q. And what could you see about the uniforms, what kind were they?
4 A. It was already getting dark. We were on the truck. We were
5 exhausted. I believe that they had camouflage uniforms on.
6 Q. You mentioned some of those soldiers were telling people, telling
7 detainees, to be quiet. Can you describe how they did that?
8 A. Yes. They first read out names of people from some places,
9 probably people they knew, and then if somebody asked for water or
10 something, because people were beginning to pass out on these trucks, it
11 was really hot, the temperature was very high, people were without water,
12 they were passing out, and if there was a cry from someone on the truck,
13 they would come and hit them with a rifle butts or they would point their
14 rifle at the men who were closest to the exit from the truck. I was
15 present when one of these men put a rifle barrel in one of these men's
16 mouth, threatening him, so that if others were to make any sounds on the
17 bus, on the truck, they would shoot him. So there was peace after that,
18 silence. There was a lot of fear and panic.
19 Q. And just for the clarity of the record, sir, when you say one of
20 these men put a rifle barrel in one of these men's mouth, was that a
21 soldier putting a rifle in a detainee's mouth?
22 A. Yes, a soldier who was there, he was circling around the truck.
23 He put the rifle barrel into the mouth of one of these detainees,
24 threatening to shoot him there on the truck. And it was difficult to
25 maintain order. People were already going mad. There was panic. It was
1 really hot, the whole day, plus this truck had a tarpaulin so we were all
2 underneath and it was really hot and I saw myself when people -- there
3 were 100 men on this truck.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask that the court officer please call
6 up 65 ter 28093, another aerial image.
7 Q. And, sir, I won't be asking you to mark this one. Sir, do you
8 recognise the area shown in this image?
9 A. Yes. I recognise it very well. This is the school building in
10 Petkovci, the elementary school building in Petkovci that we mentioned
11 earlier. I can explain, if you wish. The arrow, if you look up, is the
12 spot where the trucks were parked, the trucks that had brought us there,
13 and that's where we got off the trucks. They lined -- they made a line
14 and we had to run a gauntlet here literally between them and we had to
15 shout out, "Srebrenica is Serbian and long live Srebrenica." We had to
16 keep our hands behind our heads. Everyone would then receive a blow on
17 their backs or arms or somewhere, so we had to run towards the school.
18 There were three steps there. It's on the other side of the school. And
19 we would enter the school building and we would be on the ground floor.
20 Q. And is the school building also marked on the image?
21 A. Yes. It is marked with an S.
22 Q. You mentioned that they lined up and they made you shout. Who
23 were "they"?
24 A. Serbian soldiers who were armed and who probably were security
25 for this school.
1 Q. And could you see whether they were wearing uniforms?
2 A. Yes. They were all wearing uniforms.
3 Q. Could you see what kind?
4 A. Well, as I've already said, they had camouflage uniforms on. At
5 that point in time, I couldn't really see whether they were light or dark
6 coloured but I know that they all had uniforms on.
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours I'd ask that 65 ter 28094 be called to
8 our screens and that 65 ter 28093, this exhibit, be admitted as the next
9 public Prosecution exhibit.
10 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28093 receives number P1550,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1550 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. And do you recognise the area in this photograph, sir?
17 A. Yes. Very well. This is very familiar to me. So this is the
18 school building I was referring to. The first arrow indicates the
19 entranceway to the staircase, and then you have the first landing to the
20 right and then another landing where you turn to the left, and now you're
21 on the first floor, whereas previously you were on the ground floor. So
22 immediately to the right as we were on the first floor, you have
23 classrooms, 1, 2 and 3, and they are marked as such. So I was first put
24 up in classroom number 3.
25 Q. Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt and to have dropped my pen, but I'd
1 like to move on past that. In paragraph 33 of P1547 you mentioned that
2 later that night, a soldier came in and told you to prepare for your
3 money, jewellery and identification documents to be taken. Were those
4 things eventually taken from you?
5 A. Yes. Every five or ten minutes or so they would barge into the
6 classroom, they would be in two or in -- or, rather, they would ask for
7 two or four people to come out, as they saw fit, and as we got out into
8 the corridor we were told to give over everything that we had, so of
9 course we didn't have any money on us because that had been taken off us
10 earlier but they wanted documents, anything else that we still had on our
12 Q. And the place where that happened, is that marked on the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 A. The small dots or Xs that you see there mark that spot.
17 Q. And is that in the -- on the lower left side of the photograph?
18 I'm not going to ask you to mark anything new, just to refer to where
19 that marking is.
20 A. Yes. Yes. That's the lower left-hand corner. The dots that
21 I drew that mark the spot. So there was this group of five to six Serb
22 soldiers who tied us up and took our documents away.
23 Q. You mentioned that you were tied up. Could you -- you said in
24 your statement that it was your hands that were tied, could you move
25 those -- could you move your hands at all?
1 A. No. My hands were tied behind my back and in such a way that
2 I couldn't flex my fingers at all, and I still have problems with my
3 right-hand to this day which goes numb very frequently. I was tied up
4 for at least four to five hours and my blood circulation stopped.
5 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 28094 as a public
7 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28094 receives number P1551,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I would ask that page 2 of 65 ter 04997
13 be called to our screens.
14 Q. Before we leave the school, sir, and while that document comes
15 up, I'm going to ask you about some specific people. Did you see
16 Ramo Fejzic at the school?
17 A. Yes. I saw him with my own eyes in that classroom. He was
18 seated right next to me.
19 Q. Did you see Fuad Pilav at the school?
20 A. Yes. I saw him, too, in the school building, in that other
21 classroom. He was there together with his father. They were tied up and
22 I saw them when they held me against them in classroom number 2 as I've
23 mentioned a moment ago.
24 Q. And did you see Razim Buhic at the school?
25 A. Yes. I saw him as soon as they were putting us into the
1 classroom when my group got off the truck. We were among the first to
2 enter the classroom, which was empty by then. That was when I saw Razim
3 Buhic and another person, and I did see that in the statement. They were
4 lying down and at first I thought that they were dead, they were all
5 beaten up and bloody. I saw Razim Buhic -- I knew Razim Buhic
6 personally. In fact, he's even a distant relative of mine.
7 Q. Did you ever see any of those people alive again?
8 A. No, never. They were eventually recovered in graves and
10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I won't ask further questions about
11 the events on the school in reliance on adjudicated facts 1579 through
13 Q. Now, sir, looking at the image on our screen -- and if we could
14 have page 2, please --
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is page 2.
16 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 1. My notes are in error.
17 Q. Sir, do you recognise the area we see here?
18 A. Yes. Very much so. That's the dam and the plateau beneath the
19 dam where we were being executed.
20 Q. And do you see the area here where you and other men were told to
21 lie down? If you do, if you could just describe for the Judges where it
23 A. I think it was somewhere here. Should I use a pen or should
24 I just describe it?
25 Q. If you could describe it, that would be best.
1 A. We were transported here along this macadam road which ends at
2 this plateau. We stopped roughly where you see these individuals here.
3 They were filling up the area. So it was already full and I was perhaps
4 somewhere halfway down this plateau. And as we were pulling out,
5 I remember still this pile of rocks and stones. This is something that
6 I remember clearly. On the following morning, when we were pulling out
7 across the woods here, I was still able to see this heap of stones, and
8 this is some sort of landmark that remains clearly etched in my memory.
9 When I revisited the area with investigators, I saw the heap of rocks
10 again and a great deal of cases so this is where we were on this plateau.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours I'd ask that this page of 65 ter 04997
12 be admitted as the next public Prosecution exhibit.
13 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, if you only want to tender this one page
17 you have to upload it as a separate document.
18 MR. TRALDI: We will do that, Your Honour. Ms. Stewart just
19 informed me of the same thing. It will be at that time 4997A.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Could I ask one
21 question? You said you saw cases. Did you mean to refer to what kind of
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Casings coming from automatic
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 The number is still to be assigned, Madam Registrar?
2 THE REGISTRAR: 4997A, once uploaded, will receive number P1552,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
5 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask, then, that 65 ter 28899 be called to our
6 screens and not be broadcast to the public.
7 Q. In paragraphs 48 and 51 of P1547, you mentioned sketches of the
8 dam which you'd provided. Is the sketch on our screens now one of those?
9 A. Yes. This is a sketch that I personally drew.
10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. This sketch, sir, says on it, I believe, night view. How could
5 you see what was happening?
6 A. We were able to see because at the end up there we had two large
7 headlights or flood lights. There were two posts with flood lights
8 spreading light wide around.
9 Q. And to the right of the stick figures, we can see a large arrow.
10 What does that represent?
11 A. I don't understand, to the right of the stick figures?
12 Q. Where you've drawn people, sir, to the right of the people we can
13 see an arrow. And can you just explain to Their Honours what the arrow
15 A. Now I understand. I apologise. The arrow here indicates the
16 route along which we pulled out of the area. This other fellow that
17 I mentioned, when he came to me, he then led me across the stick figures,
18 meaning people that we had to walk over, and as we got out to the right,
19 there is some sort of brush wood there, a low hedge, and as we crossed
20 that we reached a canal into which we descended.
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 28899 into evidence
22 and ask that it be pleased under seal.
23 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28899 receives number P1553,
1 Your Honours under seal.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P1550 ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: 53, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 53 is admitted into evidence under seal.
5 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that 65 ter 28897 be called to our screen.
6 It should also not be broadcast.
7 Q. This is labelled day view, sir. I want to ask you about two
8 specific things you've identified on the sketch. First, there is a canal
9 on the upper left-hand side. Is that the canal you were mentioning a
10 moment ago?
11 A. Yes. That's the canal.
12 Q. And there appear to be two vehicles in the centre of our sketch,
13 just to the left of where we see the people. What were those doing when
14 you saw them?
15 A. Yes. These vehicles arrived at the point when we were pulling
16 out and starting to escape. This is the tractor that was transporting
17 bodies, and this is the loader, the earth-moving machinery, you know.
18 The loader collected the bodies and loaded them on to the truck, and the
19 truck then drove them away in the direction of the dam.
20 Q. Did you recognise the type of loader that was?
21 A. Yes, I did. It was the ULT 160 earth-moving machinery. We used
22 to have that sort of machinery in the mines, and it was orange in colour.
23 Q. So were you familiar with that type of machine previously?
24 A. Yes. I was familiar with it from before. And it seems to me
25 that I still hear the hydraulics, you know, of the machine as it was
1 scooping the bodies just like it would scoop the earth.
2 Q. How long were you able to watch those two vehicles working?
3 A. It was sometime early in the morning, at dawn, that we were able
4 to pull out into the area where it says, the forest or the woods, and we
5 spent the whole day there. It's some 200 or 300 metres away as the crow
6 flies, and the whole day we were able to observe the machine working,
7 scooping the bodies, offloading them on to the truck and then the truck
8 would leave. And some 15 or 20 minutes later, it would come back and do
9 the same thing again. And it went on for the whole day. And then as it
10 became darker, there was an asphalt road behind the canal, we had to move
11 away but the machine stayed behind. So we were able to observe them
12 working the whole day.
13 Q. And is it right then that the machines were still working when
14 you pulled out on the asphalt road after dark?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. They were still at work.
16 Q. Still loading bodies?
17 A. Yes. Loading the corpses, those people.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document as the next
19 Prosecution exhibit and request that it be placed under seal.
20 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28897 receives number P1554 under seal,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P1554 is admitted under seal.
25 MR. TRALDI: Regarding the witness's testimony about the loader
1 I'd refer Your Honours to 65 ter 4277 page 15. That document has been
2 tendered in our 12th Rule 92 bis motion. As it's a lengthy document and
3 the witness only speaks to one page, I won't re-tender the document at
4 this time.
7 A. The only thing I know is that he was identified. I think he was
8 recovered in the grave at Glogova. When we were taken prisoner,
9 I carried him all the way to Sandici and we handed him over to the Serb
10 soldiers who were waiting for us along the road. They said that they
11 would take care of the wounded. We formed a line to Konjevic Polje.
12 I never heard of him again and it was only, I think, in 2007 that he was
14 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honours, I'd request that line 7 and 8 be
15 redacted. I apologise for the inconvenience.
16 JUDGE ORIE: A redaction has already been ordered. I also inform
17 anyone who is in the public audience not to reveal that name which was
18 mentioned a while ago as being the nephew of this witness. They are
19 under an order not to reveal that name.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. All told, sir, and without referring to your family name,
23 approximately how many of your relatives were in the column of men and
24 were never seen again?
25 A. At least 20 of my closest relatives, brothers, cousins,
1 brothers-in-law, so my close family lost 20 members.
2 Q. And asking now about people who were closely related to you and
3 also people who were more distant relatives, other than you, was there
4 any adult male in your family who embarked from Susnjari in the column
5 and survived the killings in Srebrenica?
6 A. Of my nearest, none. Only my sister's children survived. They
7 were small. Nobody else. Just me. It's a bit hard for me. I'm sorry.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
10 We move into closed session in order to allow the witness to
11 leave the courtroom. We will take a break, Witness, of some 20 minutes
12 which hopefully will enable you to have some rest.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
14 [Closed session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Witness, are you ready to proceed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm ready.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.
11 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Mladic Defence team. Mr. Ivetic, you may
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
15 Q. Good day, sir. I'll be asking you some questions today to try to
16 better understand your testimony. I will ask that you pay close
17 attention to my questions to try and ensure that the answers you give are
18 as closely related to my questions as possible; is that understood, sir?
19 A. Yes, it's understood.
20 Q. Thank you. And also, sir, if any of my questions appear unclear
21 to you, please bring that to my attention and I will either repeat or
22 rephrase the question. Is that also understood, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. IVETIC: And just for the exercise of caution,
25 Madam Registrar, if we can make sure that none of my documents that I use
1 are broadcast, that way I think we can be efficient in ensuring that the
2 protective measures are upheld.
3 Q. And, sir, I'd like to first begin by asking you some questions
4 relating to your background. Now, in your Rule 92 ter statement, P1547,
5 and in the first paragraph at page 2 in both languages, you identify that
6 you served in the BiH army in Srebrenica before the UNPROFOR camp was
7 established at Potocari, and today you have provided dates for your
8 participation in that -- in that armed force, and your wounding. I would
9 like to ask you, sir, could you tell us how it was that you were wounded
10 and demobilised from the Territorial Defence?
11 A. I joined the Territorial Defence on the 17th of April, 1992.
12 This was the defence of our villages, the protection of our families. We
13 just stood guard around the village and all through the
14 15th of June, 1992, I was there, but then I was wounded in the left arm.
15 I was hit by shrapnel, and it was then that the doctor actually excluded
16 me from the Territorial Defence. So while I was there, it was still the
17 Territorial Defence.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. I'd like to ask you at the time that you were
19 wounded, were you armed?
20 A. No. I never had a rifle of my own; in other words to be armed.
21 But when we took turns as guards, we would then just relay the rifles.
22 We would get the rifle from the previous person and that's the only time
23 I had it, and then I would pass it on and go home after my turn was over.
24 Q. Allow me then to rephrase and restate my question. At the time
25 that you were wounded, did you have a rifle?
1 A. I did have a rifle then. This was just outside my village. On
2 these positions where we were standing guard, I was injured by shrapnel.
3 Q. Thank you, sir.
4 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the next set of questions I think
5 we should go into private session to ensure the identity of the witness
6 is not compromised.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 12505-12513 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. Sir, did you have occasion to hear of the existence of a black
12 market in Srebrenica that was operated by members of the BiH army?
13 A. No. I never heard of it.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, today, at temporary transcript page 22, you
15 described for us how you were mobilised again into the army and when
16 counsel for the Prosecution specifically asked whether it was indeed the
17 army that you were mobilised into you confirmed the same. In that
18 regard, now I'd like to ask you about something that you testified to
19 under oath during the Krstic case in 2000.
20 MR. IVETIC: If we can have 1D1036 up in e-court, again, we
21 should not broadcast the same, although I think it's open session
22 testimony. But, still, to be safe, I'd ask that nothing be broadcast.
23 And if we could have the third page in e-court, that should correlate to
24 transcript page 2942.
25 Q. And, sir, I will read for you lines 16 of this page through 6 of
1 the next page so that you get the translation and then I'll have some
2 questions for you. So please follow along:
3 "Q. Before the creation of the UN safe area of Srebrenica, were
4 you a member of the Territorial Defence?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. Were you wounded?
7 "A. I was wounded on the 16th of June, 1992. By orders of the
8 army command or, rather, the Territorial Defence, I was appointed to
9 working on the collection of humanitarian aid in the local community.
10 "Q. So following your injury you were released from the
11 Territorial Defence?"
12 If we can go to the next page:
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. At the time of the fall of the enclave in July of 1995, were
15 you a member of the Bosnian Muslim army?
16 "A. I was not."
17 Now, sir, how do you account for the fact that in the Krstic
18 trial you testified that you were not a member of the Bosnian Muslim army
19 when the enclave fell in July of 1995 and today you appear to have
20 testified that, in fact, you were a member of the Bosnian Muslim army at
21 that time? How do you account for that inconsistency?
22 A. I don't know. I may have said that, but what I do know is that
23 I was mobilised again on the 5th or the 6th of July. That's to say when
24 the attack on Srebrenica commenced. And I was there all the way until
25 the 11th when we were captured. And I resumed my service at a later
1 date. I don't know how I came to say this.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
3 Now, at the time that you were remobilised, whether it was the
4 5th or 6th of July, 1995, were you at that time mobilised into the
5 281st Brigade of the Army of BiH?
6 A. I do believe that that was how the formation was, and there was
7 chaos, there was no time to discuss these issues. Simply all of the
8 able-bodied population had to be activated and engaged in the exercise of
9 protecting the population, digging up the lines, and so on. Over the
10 course of these five or six days, there was unspeakable chaos, but
11 I think that it was the 281st, yes.
12 Q. Sir, I have to ask a follow-up question just to make sure that
13 I'm understanding your testimony. Is it your testimony that not only you
14 but every able-bodied male was, on 5 or 6 July 1995, activated and
15 mobilised into the armed forces, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Yes. Simply mobilisation was organised so that everybody, all
17 able-bodied men, could be engaged in digging up trenches, bringing
18 supplies to the lines, protecting the population. There were shells
19 landing from all quarters, and I repeat, one simply didn't know where to
20 go and what to do first over the course of these days.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to move to Susnjari, and in your
22 92 ter statement which is P1547, at the second page in both languages,
23 you state that military-aged men and men who could walk were ordered to
24 go to Susnjari, and you believed that the order came from the Bosnian
25 civilian authorities in Srebrenica. First off, I want to ask you to
1 confirm if, in fact, it was also part of that same order that the women
2 and children were to go to Potocari with the aim of leaving Srebrenica
4 A. I believe that that was the case. I cannot confirm that there
5 was any order for the women and children or who issued it. I think that
6 it was the civilian authorities who said that men should head to Susnjari
7 and women and children to the UNPROFOR base because they hoped that they
8 would find some sort of salvation there.
9 Q. Whoever issued that order, when would it have been communicated,
10 do you know?
11 A. I don't know when it was issued or when it was communicated.
12 I think that on the 11th of July, the entire population set off when the
13 Serb forces entered the town proper, the town of Srebrenica. I was close
14 by because we were digging up trenches above one of the villages, and the
15 whole morning of the 11th of July we were able to see the Serb tanks
16 attacking from a place called Bojna. They were targeting Srebrenica.
17 Early in the morning, as they went down hill, they immediately set some
18 of the houses on the edge of Srebrenica on fire. Simply, news spread
19 that the Serb army had captured Srebrenica and the people were leaving.
20 We left in the evening.
21 Q. Okay, sir. Now, also, here you talk about at Susnjari, you talk
22 of the column of men and how it was decided that all the men would walk
23 in a column due to the fear of land mines. Now I'd like to ask you: Am
24 I correct that, in fact, you were ordered to fall in at Susnjari
25 according to your assignments in the Armija BiH brigades?
1 A. Well, of course, column was formed from Susnjari. We had to go
2 in file in order to more easily make our way through the Serbian lines,
3 and the column was perhaps some ten kilometres long.
4 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up 1D1031 again. This is the
5 statement from 19 July 1995, and if we can have page 2 in both languages.
6 Q. And I'd like to read a portion of that to you, sir, and then ask
7 you some questions about the same. And the part I want to read is as
8 follows in the English: Do we have the -- I apologise, should be page 3
9 in the B/C/S.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please for the record repeat the
11 document number?
12 MR. IVETIC: 1D1031.
13 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to read for you as follows:
14 "There was a total of between 12.000 and 13.000 of us men, all
15 able-bodied, and there were also some women with us. But I don't know
16 who led us and who was the leader of the column. In the village of
17 Susnjari, we fell in according to our brigades. I was in our
18 281st Brigade, which then had 1.000 soldiers and 500 civilians, if not
19 more. After my brigade had been lined up we joined the other brigades
20 and moved in single file for fear that there might be minefields. We
21 then set off towards Buljim which was held by the Chetniks. There, the
22 Chetniks began to shell us and fire at us from all directions using Praga
23 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns. We began to move in the direction of
24 Siljkovci and Kamenica, Pobudje, crawling and in other ways. During the
25 Chetnik shelling and use of other weapons, a large number of people were
1 killed on the spot and many were wounded".
2 Sir, do you stand by this part that I have read out from your
3 prior statement as truthfully and accurately stating the facts relative
4 to this incident?
5 A. Yes, it's truthful.
6 Q. Okay. Now, at the time that the column set out, according to
7 brigades, and went towards an area that was held by the Serbs, what was
8 your understanding of the military orders of that column?
9 A. I wasn't to -- I wasn't able to hear any orders. Nobody could
10 address such a multitude of people. I did say that we fell in according
11 to our brigades. What I meant was that we grouped according to the
12 brigades, as far as we were able to. But as we moved in single file,
13 nobody was able to keep track of others anymore. Everybody was fending
14 for themselves, as soon as gunfire and shelling started. I wasn't able
15 to hear any sort of orders.
16 Q. Let me see if I can understand correctly, sir. Am I correct that
17 your brigade was located somewhere towards the front of the column?
18 A. Yes, I think that's correct.
19 Q. And now I believe that you've testified that while approximately
20 one-third of the column was armed, am I correct that a majority of the
21 persons from the column that were armed were also at the front of the
22 column spearheading the attempted breakthrough through Serb lines?
23 A. In my estimate, one-third of the people who were there, some
24 14.000 or 15.000, were armed.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, allow me to repeat my question. Am I
1 correct that a majority of those persons from the column that were armed
2 were at the front of the column spearheading the attempted breakthrough
3 through Serb lines?
4 A. I cannot confirm that because I don't know. I wasn't able to see
5 who was heading the column. As we were making our way, we lost track of
6 one another. So I can't say where people with weapons were.
7 Q. Now, you have identified in this statement from 19 July 1995,
8 that a large number of persons were killed on the spot from artillery,
9 including anti-aircraft artillery that was shooting upon you. During
10 that time was there also counter-fire coming from the Bosnian Muslim
11 column members who were armed?
12 A. No. The route that I'm mentioning from a place called Jaglici to
13 the Kamenica hill where that big ambush was staged, along this stretch
14 I never heard any counter-fire coming from the column. Perhaps further
15 ahead, yes, but where I was, I didn't hear it. We were constantly under
16 fire from the Serbian forces at Kravica. Shells were constantly landing
17 in the woods.
18 Q. So we can have some idea of exactly where you were located in
19 relation to the column, do you believe if the front of the column were
20 firing at the Serbs, would you be in a position to see or hear it or not?
21 A. No. I wasn't close by. I don't know who was heading first or
22 how far that was, but I also didn't hear any fire coming from our people.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in addition to this ambush or attack where
24 a large number of persons were killed, am I correct that there were a
25 subsequent number of attacks that occurred on your path in the direction
1 to Siljkovci and Kasaba, again in which a large number of persons from
2 the column were killed?
3 A. Do you mean the attacks from or by the Serbian army?
4 Q. Yes, the incoming fire from the Serbian army.
5 A. Yes. As I said, the attacks were relentless, lasting throughout
6 the day from the morning of the 12th when we set off from Jaglici
7 throughout the 13th, the Praga was firing. There was fire from other
8 weapons, shells relentlessly following us on our way and falling on the
10 Q. Now, am I correct that all of these events that we have been
11 talking about now, and all of the various casualties that you describe,
12 occurred prior to 12 July 1995?
13 A. No, you're not right. All this happened from the morning of the
14 12th, roughly 5.00 a.m., when we started crossing the Serbian line at
15 Buljim, until - and I'm speaking for myself - the 13th, in the morning,
16 when we were captured. So the whole day, the 12th and in the evening.
17 I'm referring to the path from Buljim to Sandici where I was taken
18 prisoner, all the way along that path through the forest.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, on this same page, at the bottom of the
20 page in the English, and going on to the next page, you say as follows:
21 "Since it was dark and we didn't know where we were, we tried to
22 make it through to Kasaba several times but failed. On 12 July 1995, in
23 the morning hours, the Chetniks again began shelling using all weapons.
24 The wood where there was a large number of our wounded and dead soldiers
25 and civilians, I don't know the exact number."
1 First of all, sir, is this part of your statement that I read out
2 truthful and accurate such that you would stand by the same and testify
3 again if asked about these events?
4 A. No. This is a mistake. Not the 12th of July but the 13th of
5 July. The 12th, that was a Wednesday, we spent the whole day travelling
6 from Buljim to Sekovici, that you were mentioning in connection with
7 Nova Kasaba. That was the shelling. And then of course if I think back
8 to the 12th in the evening. It was on the 13th, on Thursday, that it
9 happened. I can see the 12th here. Maybe it was their mistake when they
10 were writing it down.
11 Q. Fair enough, sir. Apart from the correction of the date, is the
12 remainder of what I have read from this section truthful and accurate
13 such that you would so testify again today, subject to the solemn
14 declaration, if asked about these same events?
15 A. Yes, I'd say so. There was a large number of wounded and dead
16 lying in that brook.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we could return to your Rule 92 ter
18 statement, P1547, at page 3 in the English, it's the second paragraph
19 from the bottom, and in B/C/S, it's page 3 but the third paragraph from
20 the bottom. And while we wait for that, sir, I can perhaps tell you what
21 I believe it says and what my request for clarification is.
22 In that portion of your 92 ter statement you talk about the fact
23 that you tried many roads but were ambushed and that you heard that many
24 people were killed in the river area but did not see this. Now, first,
25 I would like to be clear that the persons that are described in this
1 paragraph of your 92 ter statement that would have been killed in the
2 river area we are still talking about casualties from the fighting and
3 shooting coming from the Serb forces?
4 A. I didn't understand you properly. Can you explain and put a
5 brief question?
6 Q. Yes, sir. If you could look at paragraph number 10 of the
8 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: If the microphone is --
10 MR. IVETIC:
11 Q. At paragraph 10 of your statement, sir, in both languages as it's
12 marked, you say that, "I heard many people were killed in the river area
13 but I did not see this."
14 And my question for you is to clarify that the persons that you
15 would have heard of being killed in the river area as in your statement
16 relates to casualties from the fighting, the shooting, that was being
17 directed at the column of men?
18 A. There was no fighting when it comes to our own army. They did
19 not engage in combat. All the people that I saw lying in that stream
20 were killed by shells or snipers and the Praga that was firing from
22 Q. Sir, now I'm confused. Earlier you testified that you were not
23 close enough to the front of the column so as to see or hear whether they
24 were shooting, now you're saying that no one from your army engaged in
25 any fighting. How can you account for those inconsistencies?
1 A. Well, I'm talking about my group, the group of people I was in.
2 And that place. I could see people from the columns -- from the column
3 who lay dead there in that stream, or who had been seriously wounded. So
4 the fire was on the Serb part throughout that time. As for the forward
5 end of the column, I never mentioned that, nor do I know what was
6 happening there.
7 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Am I also correct in addition
8 to the river area, there were a lot of bodies of persons killed from the
9 shelling that were along the roadways and that those bodies were just
10 left there?
11 A. Yes. At first, we began pulling out, and I'm talking about the
12 12th, to the --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what hill.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We pulled out some 30 wounded or so
15 to a plateau, and there was a major ambush there. Now, what happened to
16 those wounded men, afterwards, I never learned, but the others were left
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Now I'd like to move back to your statement that
20 we have on the screen and I believe it's paragraph 12 of the same which
21 is the next page in English and it's the last two lines in B/C/S on the
22 page that we have now. If we could scroll down to that. And here, sir,
23 you are talking about people panicking because there was no way out, and
24 that people started committing suicide. And you say that you saw at
25 least 20 persons with your own eyes who committed suicide and every 4 to
1 5 metres there was another body. Now I would like to clarify with you,
2 sir, at this point would you agree with me that the people in the column
3 had been broken up into smaller groups, each group going their own
5 A. Yes. I agree the groups had been broken up, but there were
6 attempts to get out on the roads, so my group remained cut off in that
7 section. We were cut off from the main column.
8 Q. And in relation to these 20 persons that you with your own eyes
9 saw commit suicide, would it be accurate to state that these 20 persons
10 were all from or comprising a part of your group that had broken off from
11 the column which was 100 persons in total?
12 A. No. I could not say that. I can't say that these people were
13 from my group. The truth is they were in the column but I can also not
14 confirm that there were 100 men in that column. There were 100 people
15 down below where we surrendered but as from what I could see there were
16 some 20 people or so, I didn't really count them, who lay dead. But how
17 they died, I can't really guarantee, vouchsafe for, but I did see one or
18 two men commit suicide but that these 20 men committed suicide, I can't
19 really confirm that. I did see 20 men lying dead in that stream.
20 Q. Thank you. In terms of those that you actually saw yourselves,
21 am I correct that you saw persons shoot their own relatives or that
22 relatives shot each other?
23 A. Yes. I did say that. I did see one such case.
24 Q. At this time, was there also a dispute and in-fighting amongst
25 the persons that were part of the column between those that wanted to
1 surrender and those that wanted to fight onward and continue to try to
2 break through the Serb lines?
3 A. Well, there may have been some differences amongst them, but
4 believe me I couldn't really hear very much. There was a relative of
5 mine who was seriously wounded and I was trying to save him. So the only
6 option left for us was to surrender and when we heard the Serbs calling
7 out on a bull horn to surrender we decided to do it, and we saw an end --
8 a portion of the column that were moving -- we saw people moving forward
9 and they had a blue UN flag. We also -- so we believed that we would
10 actually manage to get to the -- and be taken to the UNPROFOR soldiers.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you find a suitable moment within
12 the next two or three minutes for a break?
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 Q. For those that decided to surrender, were there persons who had
15 been previously wearing military uniforms, who discarded their military
16 uniforms and changed into civilian clothing prior to surrendering?
17 A. No. I didn't see any such persons there. I didn't see anyone
18 changing uniform there. It's possible that there were such cases among
19 those who had surrendered earlier, but where I was, I didn't see --
20 I couldn't see anyone like that. We were all in civilian clothes.
21 Q. Where you were, did anyone discard weapons before surrendering?
22 A. No. I didn't see that either.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, we are at a suitable point for the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Can we first move into closed session so that the
1 witness can leave the courtroom. And we will resume after the break in
2 closed session again.
3 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on to focus on the events that transpired
20 as you -- and I believe you testified 250 to 300 persons proceeded to the
21 asphalt road and surrendered to the soldiers who you say identified
22 themselves as Serb civilian police. Could you confirm for us that at
23 this time no one was executed or mistreated by these persons?
24 A. No. We corrected that mistake. It was between 100 and 150
25 people. I don't know how we came to say 250 because that's a large
1 group. What I wanted to say was that when we surrendered to these Serb
2 soldiers, mistreatment and beatings started right away. Many were beaten
3 up already at the spot. We were immediately ordered to surrender all the
4 items we had. We were searched. And this group of soldiers who were
5 there on the road by Sandici took away everything that we had. If we had
6 any gold, jewellery, rings, we had to hand everything over to them.
7 There were several wounded persons by the road side, and there was my
8 relative. We stayed close to them. So the mistreatment and blows
9 started right there.
10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that these persons also took away weapons
11 that members of that group of 100 to 150 persons that you were with had
12 on their person?
13 A. I didn't even see anybody carry any weapons to the spot where the
14 Serbian soldiers were. Mostly those who surrendered there were unarmed.
15 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up 1D1031 again, and again as with
16 all the others we should not broadcast. And if we can turn to page 3 in
17 the English, and page 2 in the B/C/S, I think it might be 3 in the B/C/S
18 since they are double-sided. That's fine. That's the page.
19 Q. Sir, here in relation -- waiting for the English -- in relation
20 to the surrender, here is what you said on 19 July 1995:
21 "After a while the Chetniks began to call on us through
22 megaphones to surrender, alleging that they would not hurt us and would
23 transport us with our families to Kladanj and Tuzla. Then a large number
24 of us set off walking in file towards them in the village of Mandici
25 where we surrendered. Then they searched us, took away all the weapons
1 we had, money, documents and everything else."
2 Does that refresh your recollection, sir, as to whether members
3 of that group that you surrendered with were armed and those arms were
4 taken away by the Serb forces searching you?
5 A. Well, yes. What is probably meant here is - and I'm speaking for
6 myself - I had a pistol with me which was a licensed pistol. I had it
7 and got it perhaps 15 years before the war, and it was that pistol that I
8 had on me and I handed it over to the Serb soldier. So perhaps it was
9 along those lines that I gave this statement. There may have been others
10 who did the same but that I saw someone hand over a rifle, no, I didn't.
11 What was in question here was this pistol. So what I was saying here was
12 that I, myself, handed over my pistol to them. And I repeat, it was a
13 licensed pistol.
14 Q. With relation to the transfer of yourself and others to the
15 football pitch at Kasaba, first of all, am I correct that prior to going
16 to the football pitch at Kasaba you were kept in some rooms at a school
17 in Konjevic Polje?
18 A. Yes. We were held in some rooms, not of a school building, it
19 was a building which was being built before the war and was to become a
20 marketplace, but what you have today is just the walls and concrete slab.
21 So this was the group of us who came from Sandici and there were two
22 other rooms full of people there. So it wasn't a school building. It
23 was just a structure that was in the process of being built at the time,
24 and it still stands like that today.
25 Q. Is it correct that while you were at this structure you were
1 provided water, kept for about an hour before being transported to the
2 football pitch at Kasaba? I note that my microphone apparently was out.
3 I would like to repeat the question, then.
4 Sir, is it correct that you were kept at that structure, that
5 location, for about an hour, you were provided water and then you were
6 transferred to the football pitch at Kasaba?
7 A. I don't know exactly if it was just one hour. At any rate, we
8 were held in that room. There was sweltering heat. The temperature was
9 about 40 degrees, it was between mid-day and 1.00 p.m. Somebody brought
10 over some water from a nearby river, I believe, in pails, you know the
11 sort of pails that you would use to water plants. And it was for this
12 group of us there of 100-odd persons, and we were supposed to drink that
13 water from the pail and there would be dozens of us flocking to the pail
14 to at least get our mouth wet.
15 Q. Now, at the football pitch in your testimony you have estimated a
16 number of persons you believe were present, can you please tell me how
17 you arrive at this estimate; that is, what is the basis for your estimate
18 of the number of persons that were present at the football pitch in
20 A. In my free estimate, picture a football pitch and its carrying
21 capacity. At least 1.500 to 2.000 people can fit in a football pitch if
22 seated. That was how I arrived at the number, and the pitch was full.
23 Q. Now, in your Rule 92 per statement which is P1547, at page 5 in
24 both languages, in the middle of the page, you discuss a speech by
25 General Mladic. First I want to have you describe for us where this
1 stage was located. Was it on the pitch itself or was it on the roadway?
2 A. It was taken place in the pitch itself. When he came to us, when
3 he approached us and we were seated on the ground, that was after the
4 Serb soldiers escorted us through the gate and on to the pitch, and made
5 us sit down, that was when he addressed us and it was all happening on
6 the football pitch.
7 Q. What material did the stage appear to be made of and how -- what
8 were its dimensions?
9 A. I said that I didn't remember, and I stand by it. Was it a stage
10 or was it some sort of elevation that was there from before, the only
11 thing I know is that he was standing on high ground. He was overlooking
12 us. And everybody was able to see him. Now, was it a stage? I don't
13 know. At any rate, it was at one end and I did mark it on that sketch.
14 Q. Now, how long did General Mladic stay there and address the
15 persons assembled at the soccer -- at the football pitch?
16 A. Well, he didn't stay very long. As soon as he appeared there, he
17 addressed us, he said who he was, and then he began asking us where we
18 were headed and all that, and then he went out in front of us and said a
19 few words, not very long, not longer than ten minutes at most.
20 Q. You describe that he arrived in an armoured personnel carrier and
21 that the same was located approximately 100 metres from you. Did this
22 armoured personnel carrier have wheels or a track?
23 A. There was a correction made yesterday, I believe. I'm not sure
24 whether it was a tracked vehicle or whether it had wheels. I only saw it
25 when it was passing by me some ten metres away, and when he addressed us.
1 So what type of vehicle it was, I'm not really sure and I can't confirm.
2 Q. Do you recall how many doors it had on it?
3 A. Well, try to put yourself in my shoes. Would you have time to
4 think about how many doors that vehicle had or what type of vehicle it
5 was? It was a matter of survival so I wasn't really paying any attention
6 to what kind of vehicle it was so I can't really say.
7 Q. Fair enough. Now I want to move to what you recall
8 General Mladic's words were. In your Rule 92 ter statement that we have
9 up on the screen you state as follows, and it's paragraph 20 if you want
10 to follow along, and you say:
11 "First, Mladic asked do you know me? Some said, Yes, and others
12 were quiet. He said, I am the general, Ratko Mladic. Where were you
13 going, what was your goal? Where is your state? Where is
14 Alija Izetbegovic and Silajdzic? Where are your commanders Naser and
15 Zulfo Tursunovic. You do not have your state here. You have to go look
16 for your state. You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while
17 you're killing our soldiers. None can pass through because we have
18 knitted a net with our soldiers, they are close together and have dogs.
19 You do not have to worry. You will be exchanged and join your families
20 in Tuzla. Now you'll be transported by trucks to Bratunac or Kravica
21 where you will spend the night and get some food."
22 And the question I want to ask you, sir, is: Do you really stand
23 by every word that is printed here as truthfully and accurately
24 reflecting what you remember Mladic to have said on that occasion?
25 A. Yes. I can confirm that, and this is true. All of this is true.
1 And I will never forget this for as long as I live. Everything I've said
2 there is correct.
3 Q. Sir, we received an information report from the Prosecutor's
4 office dated 27 January 1998 - it's signed by the OTP investigators for
5 January 1999 - reflecting what you had corrected that you did not know
6 whether General Mladic mentioned Bratunac as is indicated in this
7 paragraph. Is that accurate?
8 A. No. I didn't really understand what you are saying. I don't see
9 that Bratunac is mentioned anywhere. Could you please repeat your
11 Q. Sir, in the part that we just read at paragraph 20 of your
12 statement, Bratunac is mentioned in both the B/C/S and the English. And
13 my question to you, sir, was that we have an information report from the
14 Prosecution indicating that you corrected this part of the paragraph to
15 remove the reference to Bratunac. Is that accurate?
16 A. I don't really remember. It's possible. But he said, You will
17 be received by our soldiers. You will be accommodated. You will get
18 food and water. I don't know about Bratunac specifically. I see it in
19 the statement so it's possible that he did say it.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. And now here in paragraph 20, the part that
21 I just read and that you just confirmed, you also have this phrase:
22 "You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while you're
23 killing our soldiers."
24 And I want to ask you, in relation to the speech given by General
25 Mladic at Kasaba, you have given other statements in your own language to
1 various BiH organs including the 19 July 1995 statement that we have
2 looked at, also one to an investigative judge 27 July 1995, another dated
3 28 July 1995, and one dated 3 August 1995. Now, I've read all these, and
4 in none of these statements do I find this language that I have just
5 highlighted for you that appears in your ICTY statement which is taken
6 just a few days after the last of these statements to the BiH
7 authorities. Can you tell us or explain to us how it was that this
8 language only appears in your ICTY statement of August 1995, the language
9 as to:
10 "You sent your women to be protected by UNPROFOR while you're
11 killing our soldiers"?
12 A. I think that that language can be found in every one of my
13 statements. You sent your women and children to UNPROFOR while you're
14 killing our soldiers. And I believe this language is in each and every
15 one of my statements.
16 Q. If I could have 1D1031, it's page 3 in both languages, and in the
17 B/C/S it is at the top of the page whereas in the English it is in the
18 middle of the page.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the gist of the last question is that
20 this language does not appear in any of the other statements as put on
21 paper. Is there any dispute about this?
22 MR. TRALDI: I'd want to check each of them before coming back to
23 the Chamber.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Meanwhile proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Sir, if you would follow along with me, the part I'd like to
3 focus on reads as follows:
4 "On that occasion, an improvised stage was set up near the road,
5 and at one moment the Chetnik general, Ratko Mladic, who had come in a
6 personnel carrier, addressed us from the stage. He said the following
7 words: 'Do you know who I am?' Some then said they did and some kept
8 silent. He then talked to us, saying he was Ratko Mladic. Then he asked
9 us why we were fighting in vain and said we were recklessly following
10 Alija, Silajdzic and the other leaders and losing our lives. He then
11 asked, 'Where is your Naser? I took him by helicopter to Sarajevo.
12 Where is your Zulfo? Here are his documents. How many thousand German
13 marks did he take with him? Does he know that he cannot pass through my
14 lines?' On that occasion he also told us that he would exchange all of
15 us disregarding that each of us was, that nobody would be hurt and that
16 we would be reunited with our families. After the speech he got into his
17 personnel carrier and set off in the direction of Konjevic Polje."
18 I apologise, I'm told that's page 3 of the B/C/S which I thought
19 was what I had read and it should be at the top of the page. We have
20 page 2 up on the screen.
21 Sir, does that selection from your 1995 July 19 statement refresh
22 your recollection as to whether the text "you sent your women to be
23 protected by UNPROFOR while you're killing our soldiers" was indeed
24 something that you added at the time that the ICTY statement was
25 generated for the first time?
1 A. No, no. I claim with full responsibility that I did not add that
2 sentence. He said:
3 "You sent your wife and children to UNPROFOR while you're killing
4 our soldier. Not a single soldier will get through, and if you have any
5 family members, call them, tell them to come out of the woods lest they
6 be killed there."
7 And I've said this on every occasion, there were several
8 statements that I provided, and perhaps a word or two may have been
9 omitted, or I don't know how it was translated, but I do state and claim
10 with full responsibility that this is what he said and I will never
11 recant that.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, rather than going through all the
13 statements I would invite the Office of the Prosecutor to stipulate that
14 it's neither of those four prior statements, once I've had a chance to
15 review the same.
16 MR. TRALDI: We will come back to that tomorrow.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, we are about three minutes from
18 adjourning for the day. I'd like to read a brief statement on behalf of
19 the Chamber, and rather than to go first in closed session then in open
20 session again I'd rather do it now when we are still in open session.
21 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then we will adjourn later on in closed session.
23 The Chamber turns now to the issue of the Defence's request for a
24 reduction in the trial sitting schedule.
25 On the 4th of June this year, the Chamber held an administrative
1 hearing to put questions to Dr. Falke with regard to the health of the
2 accused as it relates to the request to sit four days a week. During the
3 hearing, and I refer to transcript page 12029, the Chamber asked
4 Dr. Falke, and thereby the Registry, to provide the Chamber with written
5 observations from the accused's physiotherapy treatments and, at page
6 12047, a list of the weight measurements taken for the accused.
7 The Chamber expects to receive this information as soon as
9 Also during the administrative hearing the Chamber requested the
10 parties to make any additional submissions in writing by
11 7th of June, 2013, which the Prosecution did, filing an addendum to its
12 response. The Defence did not, if the Chamber is well-informed.
13 MR. IVETIC: It's my understanding, although I wasn't here for
14 the hearing, I did speak with Mr. Lukic about that earlier, and I believe
15 we will not be filing any additional written response.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then that is clear why we did not receive it. The
17 Chamber is currently considering all of the submissions on the matter and
18 will issue its decision in due course.
19 Until then, at least until then, the Chamber has decided to
20 continue the existing sitting schedule of five days a week with the
21 exception of the first week of July, when the Chamber will sit for four
22 days with Monday, the 1st July, being a non-sitting day, although due to
23 matters unrelated to the medical issue raised.
24 And this concludes the Chamber's announcement with regard to the
25 trial schedule.
1 We will adjourn soon, once we are in closed session. We will
2 adjourn and resume on Wednesday, the 12th of June, 2013, same Courtroom I
3 at 9.30 in the morning.
4 Meanwhile, we can turn into closed session but I hereby instruct
5 you, Witness, that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way
6 with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony already
7 given or testimony still to be given.
8 Waiting for being in closed session, Mr. Ivetic, could you give
9 us an indication as to how much more time you will need.
10 MR. IVETIC: 20 minutes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes. Thank you.
12 [Closed session]
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of June
20 2013, at 9.30 a.m.