1 Thursday, 20 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours --
8 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that our transcriber has no audio or ...
9 apparently he can't hear us, which does not appear on the transcript, of
10 course, then. Can you now hear me? Yes, apparently.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
12 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And this all happened after I had invited you
14 to call the case and after we had resolved an audio problem for our
16 No preliminaries. Therefore the witness can be escorted into the
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 WITNESS: PETAR SALAPURA [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Salapura.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you are still bound
24 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your
25 testimony, that is that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and
1 nothing but the truth. Mr. Vanderpuye will now continue his
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President, good morning
4 to you, Your Honours.
5 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
6 Q. Good morning to you, Colonel.
7 Let me start by asking you this, Colonel Salapura. When you
8 returned to the -- or, rather, arrived, I should say, at the command post
9 at the VRS on 13 July in the afternoon, did you hear anything further
10 about the prisoners that you'd seen earlier at Nova Kasaba, the football
12 A. No. I didn't hear anything over there. I don't think that any
13 of those who were there had any information. During my presence there,
14 we were not receiving any information from the AOR of the Drina Corps.
15 I only found my desk officer for electronic reconnaissance there and a
16 warrant officer who was in charge of the logbook where documents were
17 filed and so on, in my department.
18 Q. Did you, yourself, Colonel, report your observations concerning
19 the prisoners that you had seen earlier that day to anyone at the
20 Main Staff when you returned that afternoon?
21 A. No, I didn't. It was only natural. One operation ended, I saw
22 prisoners standing in the football pitch, just as when I was in Potocari,
23 I saw a relaxed movement, nothing special, and nothing out of the
24 ordinary or not normal. And it is only natural that such a large
25 operation would have so many prisoners.
1 Q. You didn't actually -- let me ask: Did you make arrangements or
2 take any steps to see that those prisoners were interrogated or
3 investigated for the purposes of your intelligence function as a chief of
4 the intelligence administration?
5 A. Well, I didn't take any steps. I wasn't able to either. Firstly
6 because this was already in the course of preparations for the operation,
7 the orders and documents of the commanders regulated all these
8 arrangements. I didn't take part in either the planning or the
9 implementation stage of the operation, nor was I authorised to interfere
10 with these affairs. With my departure to Banja Luka for my sick leave
11 and medical treatment, we agreed and General Tolimir took over the duty
12 to coordinate the work of all these organs in the eastern area, whereas
13 I was supposed to monitor the events in the west, as far as I was able
14 to, along with the 410th Intelligence Centre, especially the developments
15 with regard to the aggression by Croatia and their attack on Bosnian
16 Krajina. So those were my assignments.
17 Q. Okay. So the short answer is that you didn't take any steps to
18 see that the prisoners that you had earlier seen in Nova Kasaba were
19 questioned or intelligence obtained from them, is that -- is that fair to
21 A. I didn't take such steps, nor was I able to, but somebody else
22 probably did. The interrogation of prisoners of war starts from the
23 battalion level and the organs there, and then up to the brigade, and
24 everything else is already done in the POW camps, according to our rules.
25 Q. Okay, Colonel. Let me show you P1501. This is a document you've
1 seen before, I'm sure. It's the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook.
2 I'd like to take you to page 41 of the English and page 40 in the B/C/S,
3 which reflects an entry on 14 July.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just for the purposes of the Registry, this is
5 the same document, the English is just the next page over, so it will be
6 page 41. There we have it.
7 Q. You can see at the bottom of the page, for you, Colonel, the
8 handwriting in your language, but it reflects the entry:
9 "Colonel Salapura called" --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- "Drago and Beara are to report to Golic."
12 Do you have any further recollection of this particular message
13 than you did the last time you testified?
14 A. No. This was the second day of my presence there. I don't think
15 that I can possibly remember anything else. Interestingly enough, there
16 is no time indicating when the message was received. I might have
17 received it or probably received it at lunchtime or at dinner time. When
18 Mandic, who was the only officer there, when they went to have their
19 dinner, I was the one who stayed behind and I probably then received the
20 message and conveyed it further. I might have received the message
21 from --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, we are interested in what you
23 remember, not in what could possibly, whether it was a lunch, breakfast
24 or dinner, that is all -- these are not facts. These are attempts to
25 explain matters of which you say you have no recollection. Let's stick
1 to the facts.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE:
4 Q. Colonel, do you know what Colonel Beara or Major Golic or
5 Drago Nikolic were involved in on the 14th of July, 1995, up in the
6 Zvornik area at least as concerns Drago Nikolic and Colonel Beara?
7 A. This was a different service, security service. I really don't
8 know. They were working according to their own plan, according to a plan
9 that I was not involved in. I didn't know what was being done on that
10 day. I did not get involved in the command and control system. I stayed
11 there by happenstance. I was not able to go back to Banja Luka because
12 the road was closed.
13 Q. Let me show you an entry at page --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I read here: "Colonel Salapura called Drago and
17 Beara are to report to Golic," which in my understanding of the English
18 language would mean that it was the Colonel who called, whereas part of
19 his answer seems to be that he received a call. Could we clarify that?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I do
21 appreciate that. I hadn't noticed it in the transcript.
22 Q. Colonel, do you have any recollection of calling the
23 Zvornik Brigade duty officer to leave the message that's indicated here
24 for Drago Nikolic and Colonel Beara to report to Major Golic?
25 A. No. I don't recall the details, but if I may explain something,
1 Golic --
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. You are not here to explain unless you
3 explain facts. You say you don't recall the details. What do you
4 recall? If it is -- even if it is without details.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To state the fact.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain this fact only
8 without going into detail. Golic was an officer, a Major in the
9 intelligence service. The two mentioned here, Drago Nikolic and Beara,
10 they were in the security service. This term is -- this is an
11 assumption, it's something that was mentioned in the Tolimir case. Not
12 that he should report -- he wouldn't say report to Vlasenica but report
13 to Golic, not to report to Han Pijesak, report to Salapura. So I assume
14 that that that's the same message. Nothing else.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. We are not interested in your assumptions at
16 this moment, unless Mr. Vanderpuye asks questions, again we would like to
17 know facts. The book says "Colonel Salapura called," your answer is, "I
18 don't have a recollection that I did." We leave it to that. Please
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Just so that we are clear, I can't see if it's reflected in
22 there, you don't have a recollection as to what Drago Nikolic and
23 Colonel Beara were doing in the Zvornik area on the 14th of July, 1995,
24 is that -- is that right?
25 A. That's right. It's also true that I didn't have any contact
1 whatsoever in this period with Beara or Drago Nikolic. I didn't see him
2 at all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is given by "that's right." You are
4 explaining a lot of things. We are interested in what you could tell us
5 about the facts, just that.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could go, please, to page 45 in the
8 English and page 44 in the B/C/S of the same exhibit.
9 Q. What you should see in your own language, Colonel, is an entry
10 beginning with 1500 hours and it says, "Colonel Beara is coming in order
11 to," and then it says, "Orovac, Petkovci, Rocevic, Pilica." Can you see
12 that entry, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know what that concerns?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know what Colonel Beara was doing in relation to these
17 locations, Orahovac - "Orovac" it says in here but the Chamber has heard
18 evidence that it refers to Orahovac - Petkovci, Rocevic, and Pilica?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that the
21 witness answered the question in his previous answer. So this is an
22 answered question.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said "no," interpreter's note.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This question focuses and certain specific
25 locations, but to that extent, it is not exactly the same, but the
1 witness has answered the question and I think we can proceed,
2 Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. I just want to show you a couple of entries and then I'll turn
5 you over to the Defence. One is at page 54 in the B/C/S, page 55 in the
6 English. Here we can see another reference in the middle of the page to
7 Beara and it says "to call 155."
8 Are you familiar with that extension or that number in the
9 context of the Main Staff of the VRS?
10 A. I don't remember. It's been a long time. I can't remember which
11 number that was.
12 Q. Let me show you page 78 in the B/C/S and page 79 in the English,
13 see if that helps refresh your recollection. This is an entry on the
14 16th of July but it refers to, again, 155, you can see at the bottom of
15 the page. And there it says, "Beara to call Panorama 155."
16 Does that help refresh your recollection as to what that number
17 relates to in the context of the Main Staff?
18 A. No. I told you that I did not participate in the planning, and
19 these are code names, so, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You've given the answer. Please proceed,
21 Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. When you -- you mentioned at the very beginning of your evidence
24 that you learned about the participation of the 10th Sabotage Detachment
25 in the Srebrenica-related executions from its commander Milorad Pelemis.
1 I think you said perhaps late December 1995 or early 1996. Is that your
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The objection, Mr. Stojanovic?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Misstatement. The witness did
7 not say that he learned of the participation of the 10th Sabotage
8 Detachment but, rather, of individual members of that detachment.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'll accept that.
10 Q. Is that your recollection?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you had your conversation with Pelemis, the commander, did
13 he tell you about the involvement of the unit or members of the unit at
14 any of the locations that I just showed you in the duty officer logbook,
15 that is, in relation to Pilica, Rocevic, Petkovci or Orahovac?
16 A. No. I didn't ask that from him either.
17 Q. Did he tell you about the involvement of members of the
18 10th Sabotage Detachment in the executions at Bisina, near Sekovici?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And in relation to what he told you about participation of
21 members of the unit in the executions related to Srebrenica, did you
22 personally take any action with respect to that?
23 A. I didn't because this was not my jurisdiction. I think that
24 measures had already been taken, such as investigative measures, but
25 I did not get involved in that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't because it was not within your
2 jurisdiction. That's the answer to the question. What you think,
3 whether measures were taken, et cetera, if you're aware of any measures,
4 tell us. But what you think, just as a vague expression of what might
5 have happened, doesn't assist the Chamber. Do you have any specific
6 information about measures taken by others? When, by whom, what?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't, but --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's an answer to my question. Please proceed,
9 Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. In respect of what Pelemis told you concerning the participation
12 of members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in these crimes, you did,
13 nevertheless, request that these members be provided with new
14 identifications from the Minister of the Interior, Dragan Kijac, in
15 January of 1996. Was that done on the authorisation of your commander?
16 A. No. I submitted that request on my own initiative.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Vanderpuye, could I ask the witness, was
18 that within your jurisdiction to provide others with new identity cards?
19 Was that part of your job? And where is that described?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The duties that I was performing,
21 as well as others, included such cases. I think that it was used in many
22 other services across the world. But this had a completely different
24 JUDGE ORIE: My first question was -- and the reference to the
25 rest of the world is rather vague as a legal basis for providing new IDs.
1 My question was whether it was within your jurisdiction and where that is
2 described. Do you have any text where it says, "In my position I am
3 there to provide new IDs"? Anywhere specific? If not, we'll move on.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have anything specific. If
5 need be I can only explain why I did it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Vanderpuye, if you're interested to know
7 why the witness did it, please proceed.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE:
9 Q. No, I think we have that already in your prior evidence, sir. It
10 is fair to say, though, that the eight nationals for which you requested
11 the identification were individuals that you believed had been indicted
12 by The Hague Tribunal and that was one of the reasons that was indicated
13 in the specific request that you made in 16 January 1996 for the issuance
14 of those identifications; is that right, sir?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Let's take a look at --
17 A. I know that's what it says, what it says is accurate, but why did
18 I write it, if I can explain?
19 Q. What I've asked you is what I've asked you. If you want to
20 answer a different question, then wait for it to be posed. But I'd like
21 to show this document to you so that we can all see it.
22 A. All right.
23 Q. It's P1586. This is the document that I was referring to. You
24 can see that it's dated -- I see the B/C/S is kind of faint. But we can
25 see the date at the top, 16 January 1996, and the substance of it --
1 well, it's directed to the Minister of the Interior, to the minister
2 personally, and beneath that it reflects the following:
3 "Considering that we have a group of members of the 10th Sabotage
4 Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on a list of individuals who
5 have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you order the
6 Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first and last names to
7 these individuals or with different first and last names for Serbian
8 nationals. There are eight such individuals."
9 You wrote this, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And it was directed to the Minister of the Interior, correct?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And for you to have done this, it would have been done on the
14 approval of General Tolimir, right?
15 A. Yes. Most likely there was a reason. Probably Tolimir wasn't
16 there, so I was there in his stead. I don't know.
17 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Colonel, sir, good morning.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Salapura, you'll now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I'll start with the latest question pertaining to the
2 10th Sabotage Detachment. I wanted to ask you to explain to the Court
3 when it was created.
4 A. As a matter of fact, it was in 1994, at least in this form that
5 was later on supplemented. Before the detachment -- sorry, well, the VRS
6 was created on the basis of the 2nd Military District. By the same
7 token, there was the 5th and then the 2nd Sabotage Detachment. It was
8 disbanded because it had suffered significant losses, so it became nearly
9 non-existent. And later on, the other one was established.
10 Q. What was the point, the idea, of establishing such a detachment
11 with the Main Staff of the VRS?
12 A. The exclusive task of that detachment was to carry out combat
13 activities in enemy territory, so it included sabotage and reconnaissance
14 activities deep inside enemy territory.
15 Q. What was the make-up, the ethnic make-up, in the detachment? Was
16 it of -- were the members of mixed ethnicity?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What prompted the VRS to establish a multi-ethnic formation in a
19 unit of this kind?
20 A. Well, there were several circumstances which affected it. There
21 were some members of other ethnicities who volunteered and who had their
22 military specialty from the time when they had served their military
24 Q. Is it correct that in the 10th Sabotage Detachment, there were
25 Slovenians, Croats, Muslims?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. When the war activities ended, did such individuals have problems
3 with the authorities of their own states or entities for their
4 participation in the VRS?
5 A. Well, they didn't go there. They remained in VRS territory or
6 went abroad. However, when they were still there, there was some
7 interest on the part of the AID for the persons in that unit. That was
8 the extent of information we had.
9 Q. Is it for that reason that they asked for their identity to be
11 A. Yes. A change of identity --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, we don't have any evidence to the
13 effect that they asked for their identities to be changed. What we have
14 from the exhibit that was shown was that the witness asked their identity
15 to be changed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I
17 will lay a foundation.
18 Q. Colonel, were there requests by members of the 10th Sabotage
19 Detachment to have their identities changed?
20 A. No, it was our assessment that it was necessary to do that.
21 Q. Thank you. Kindly tell us, until what time did the unit exist as
22 an autonomous unit of the VRS?
23 A. It existed until after the war, until 1996, I believe.
24 Q. Thank you. I will try to deal briefly with the facts and I'll
25 try to be as focused on that as possible, and I want to go back to your
1 statement and discuss the chronology. To the best of your recollection,
2 on the 12th of July, when did you arrive in Bijeljina attempting to
3 contact the Main Staff?
4 A. Upon my return from Belgrade, which was in the early evening or
5 sometime later in the evening.
6 Q. You were accompanied by two members from your Main Staff organ?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let us try -- actually, can you explain briefly the composition
9 of the intelligence organ and its composition in July 1995?
10 A. The intelligence organ included myself, as the chief of
11 intelligence administration. Then there was the head of the analysis
12 department, who was also my deputy. There was a desk officer for
13 electronic reconnaissance, as well as two officers in the analysis
14 department. There was a general desk officer, who was a warrant officer,
15 and my driver.
16 Q. So how many people in total, in July 1995?
17 A. Is it five or six? I don't know. A few. So myself, Jovica,
18 Slobo, Jankovic, Mirkovic, six people, yes.
19 Q. You mentioned Jankovic's name.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I wanted to ask you who is this person with the last name of
23 A. He was a Lieutenant-Colonel at the time. He was in the analysis
24 department. At the time of the events in Srebrenica, he was seconded to
25 the Drina Corps as a communications -- or liaison officer with SFOR or
1 UNPROFOR or whatever it was at the time. It was probably pursuant to a
2 request of the Drina Corps and then his own commander approved it.
3 Q. In military parlance, what does it mean to be seconded?
4 A. It means that on arrival to the unit, he's fully subordinated to
5 the unit commander and receives tasks from him, for a specific period.
6 Q. Do you know when Lieutenant-Colonel Jankovic, because that was
7 his rank at the time, was seconded to the Drina Corps?
8 A. I didn't see the document itself, and it wasn't important to me.
9 When I arrived there, they told me he had been seconded.
10 Q. Who specifically issued tasks to him as the UNPROFOR liaison
12 A. The commander or the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps. I don't
13 know how they regulated it.
14 Q. Can we look together at 65 ter document 04102? I want to ask you
15 the following. The date of the document is 13 July 1995; in the lower
16 right-hand side corner it is stated that it was sent on 14 July 1995,
17 half an hour after midnight. In the signature block there is the name of
18 Colonel Radoslav Jankovic.
19 Let me ask you this: It was addressed to the Main Staff of the
20 VRS, the OBP sector, and to the command of the Drina Corps, the
21 intelligence department or OB affairs department. Can you see that?
22 A. Yes. I see it, command of the Drina Corps, intelligence
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Looking at the document, can you arrive at
25 a conclusion in terms of whether he acted within his mandate as someone
1 who had been seconded to the Drina Corps? That is to say, to inform both
2 the intelligence department of the Main Staff and of the Drina Corps?
3 A. I see no problem there. As a responsible officer, he simply
4 included the formation he had come from in this report so that they would
5 be privy to what was going on.
6 Q. When we see -- if we see in the document that it is addressed to
7 the intelligence department -- sector of the Main Staff, who would then
8 be in receipt of this document?
9 A. General Tolimir.
10 Q. In one of the paragraphs, I think it is the last one, if we
11 disregard the post scriptum, he says:
12 "The MUP is stealing on a massive scale from UNPROFOR. Today
13 they openly stole their Puch. They wanted to participate in a search of
14 their base after the departure of refugees, which is something
15 I categorically refused."
16 I'm interested in the following. Having regard to
17 Colonel Jankovic's position, did he have any command authority?
18 A. No, not at the base. These are issues of morale and ethics. He
19 simply prevented someone from appropriating another's property, and he
20 forwarded that information to the sector and the Drina Corps command.
21 Probably so that from that level, the MUP could be informed in order to
22 put a stop to it. I would have done the same if I had been in his shoes.
23 Q. In the post scriptum paragraph we see the following:
24 "I think that if we want to take over the enclaves of Zepa and
25 Gorazde in the same way, it will be necessary to present the operation in
1 Srebrenica in the media so as to show that we had rendered adequate
2 treatment to the civilians and even to the soldiers who surrendered their
4 Let me ask you this: In practical terms, when using such
5 language, who was he proposing to this need to present the operation in
6 Srebrenica in the media? Was it the Main Staff or the Drina Corps
8 A. Both.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I think that my colleague
11 is asking for speculation because the document speaks for itself, it
12 doesn't mention the word "proposal," and so I don't know where the basis
13 for that question is. And I'm not sure what the basis of the Colonel's
14 information is as to the response that he gave.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question has been answered. If it -- in
16 the entirety of the evidence we'll see whether that answer assists us.
17 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Witness, were you ever in a position to see this document in the
20 course of 1995?
21 A. In the course of 1995, at the time that the operation was being
22 implemented, no.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Salapura, may I put this question to you?
24 You were asked who would have received this letter and you said
25 General Tolimir. Is it right that you were the chief of the intelligence
1 department in the Main Staff?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see it is directed to the general's -- the
4 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska intelligence sector. Why
5 didn't you receive it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. The intelligence and
7 security sector. Tolimir was the chief of sector and I was the chief of
8 the intelligence administration.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand that, but I don't see the term
10 "intelligence and security sector." I only see the term "intelligence
11 sector." I know that there is a difference between sector and
12 administration, but can you explain it? Why is it addressed to the
13 intelligence sector?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, if
15 I may intervene, this is precisely what I wanted to clear up.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, no, no, sorry, I have put a question to the
17 witness and I would like to hear the answer.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, what reads here is "sector for
20 OBP," and this stands for "intelligence and security affairs." There was
21 no such thing as an intelligence sector. There was only the intelligence
22 and security sector, and that was its acronym, OBP.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a translation problem,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Salapura.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a translation issue having arisen, I don't know
2 who prepared the translation, whether this is a CLSS translation or not,
3 but it should then perhaps be reviewed.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, we will see to that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's
7 precisely what I wanted to say. I thought it was a translation issue.
8 At any rate, thank you for your intervention and assistance.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If we look at the translation anyhow, I see that
10 this second addressee or the addressee, that's unclear to me, it says:
11 "To command of the Drina Corps, intelligence department."
12 Now, for the previous one, in bold, I do not see where the bold
13 comes from, as a matter of fact, but there it does not say "to." At the
14 same time it seems that everyone understands the document as having been
15 sent to the general -- the Main Staff of the VRS, and to the command of
16 the Drina Corps. The translation is perhaps a bit confusing in that
17 respect as well, but let's proceed having identified now two possible
18 translation issues. Please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Colonel, on the night between the 12th and the 13th, you were in
21 Bijeljina, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you set off for
24 Han Pijesak on the following day?
25 A. In the morning, after breakfast. When exactly, was it 7.00,
1 8.00, I don't know.
2 Q. Did two of your associates from the intelligence administration
3 set off with you?
4 A. Including the driver, yes -- no. They were from the
5 410th Intelligence Sector. They were programmers in electronics. They
6 were supposed to install a new programme in the administration in order
7 for us to have proper communications with the centre.
8 Q. Where was your first stop on your way to Han Pijesak?
9 A. In Konjevic Polje, at the intersection forking off to Bratunac.
10 Q. Can you describe for us what you were able to see at that point
11 in time, on the 13th of July, in the early morning, at Konjevic Polje?
12 A. Previously, I confused Konjevic Polje and Bratunac -- or, rather,
13 and that pitch. The pitch is not in Konjevic Polje. The pitch is in
14 Kasaba, and I was confusing the two. I only saw vehicles and people
15 moving along over here, nothing special. But I went on my way to Kasaba
16 to the command post of the MP Battalion to ask about the whereabouts of
17 Mladic. I asked where I was -- would be able to find him.
18 Q. Who did you meet with in Kasaba?
19 A. With the battalion commander in his office. There was the
20 battalion commander there and the officer operating the switchboard in
21 the communications centre.
22 Q. Did you head to the pitch in Kasaba at any point?
23 A. No. I only exchanged information there, or rather, received
24 information from the commander, and left the place for Bratunac. We were
25 outside within the compound of the battalion command. It was a school,
1 in fact. And he saw me off.
2 Q. Can you recall who you got in contact with when you were trying
3 to find out the whereabouts of General Mladic?
4 A. The battalion commander. That's Malinic.
5 Q. Before he gave you the answer, did he have any sort of telephone
6 communication with anyone to check General Mladic's whereabouts?
7 A. I don't recall that he did. The soldier operating the
8 switchboard was connecting lines, but there was nothing that was intended
9 for him.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like us to
12 look at a document but perhaps we should best do it after the break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break first. The witness may follow the
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
20 Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking in the courtroom. If you want to
21 consult counsel, do it at whisper volume.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Colonel, over the break I was asked to ask you about the July of
1 1995. When you were enumerating the individuals working for the
2 intelligence organ in your administration, does the name of
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Petrovic ring any bells? Was he with you in
4 July 1995?
5 A. Petrovic? No.
6 Q. My next question is this: As you were on your way from the
7 school building at Kasaba where you met up with Malinic, did you have to
8 go past the pitch as you were on your way to Bratunac?
9 A. Yes, I had to. The pitch is on the left side of the road, as you
10 head towards Bratunac.
11 Q. I'm sorry, I have to pause for a moment for interpretation to
12 catch up.
13 In your best estimate, how many prisoners did you believe were
14 present in the pitch?
15 A. I think I said that in my previous testimonies, that it was very
16 difficult for me to tell. I didn't focus on that. I didn't pay
17 attention to that to be able to give a near estimate. There were many,
18 several hundred people. How many exactly, I don't know. As I arrived
19 there, I saw that some were moving about the pitch, others were lying
20 down. Soldiers were on the edge with their weapons slung over their
21 right shoulder, and it was a rather relaxed atmosphere. But I can't give
22 you any figures. There were many.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1256? It's a
25 document under seal.
1 Q. And I will have questions for you. In fact, this is the reason
2 why I asked you about the number of prisoners.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the previous document, do you want
4 to tender that?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I read out the
6 penultimate and last paragraphs so I don't think there is any need.
7 JUDGE ORIE: There are other parts in that document as well,
8 Mr. Stojanovic, which may be relevant, such as the author of the document
9 saying that he intends to remove a doctor who wants to keep a close eye
10 on whether the sick people are treated well, and that he says, Well, I'll
11 send him away under the pretext that we don't need him any further, which
12 may be relevant as well. Therefore, apart from the translation issue
13 still pending, if you say, I'm not interested in it, the Chamber might
14 be. I leave it in your hands. If you say, I'll not tender it, then --
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I will
16 tell you if we will tender the document or not before the end of my
17 examination. Not at this point because we focused on what was
18 interesting for the Defence.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you may understand that the Chamber is very
20 interested in what is important for the Defence but not only in what is
21 important for the Defence.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. First I just want to
24 inform you that we have made a request for the revised translation. And
25 secondly, I wanted to inform the Chamber that to the extent that
1 Mr. Stojanovic may not want to tender the document, I certainly do. So
2 we can resolve it at the end of the witness's evidence, I suppose.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the document
5 is on the Prosecution exhibit list. In that case, once a revised
6 translation is received, I will tender the document into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we reserve a number for that. Madam Registrar?
8 Pending a better translation, the document, and I'm seeking the
9 assistance of my colleagues, 65 ter 418 -- 4102 receives number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Shall have number P01590, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. Yes, it's now
12 tendered by Mr. Stojanovic after some hesitation, so therefore it should
13 receive a D number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours. The document 4102 will
15 receive number D306.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D306 is marked for identification, and then I take
17 it that the P number which was assigned for only one second is then
18 hereby -- is not valid anymore. Please proceed.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Colonel, sir, can you see the document?
21 A. I can.
22 Q. It is an intercept which reads:
23 "Major Malinic, the commander of the 65th Protective Motorised
24 Regiment Armoured Battalion and Colonel Pero Salapura, the VRS security
25 service, are at the football field in the Kasaba village where they are
1 receiving the arrested Muslims."
2 I have a few things to ask you about concerning the document.
3 First of all, this acronym, commander of OKB in the original, what does
4 it stand for?
5 A. Well, I can clearly see that it is from the Croatian electronic
6 surveillance service. This is a compilation of different sources, and
7 the summary is quite bad to serve as a report. This is the 13th of July,
8 1995, at 10.15. When I -- this is when I returned from Bijeljina, and
9 I went directly to the armoured battalion command. I didn't go to any
10 kind of pitch or field, talking to anyone. I asked the commander where
11 General Mladic was and how I could get ahold of him.
12 There was some things that are incorrect here. He's not the
13 commander of the armoured battalion but he commanded the MP Battalion.
14 I wasn't from the security service but from the intelligence service.
15 And I was never at that football pitch. I was on a pitch that is much
16 smaller that was in front of the school, and it was en route to the
17 school. Perhaps it was at around 2.00 or so, and I was asked by one of
18 Malinic's officers to drop by the battalion command since I was with my
19 vehicle, and they said they needed water for their staff. So this is an
20 inexpertly compiled text.
21 Q. Since I will not have another opportunity to ask about it,
22 someone else who is familiar with this kind of job, and that is why
23 I would want to ask you this. Radio reconnaissance centres, were they in
24 the VRS inside brigades, the corps, or were they directly under the
25 Main Staff?
1 A. The corps did have their radio reconnaissance units, the size of
2 platoon. The Main Staff should have had a radio reconnaissance company
3 but we did not have the necessary equipment and we never developed that
4 kind of unit. The equipment was used mainly to monitor radio and radio
5 relay communication.
6 Q. The equipment of the former 5th and 2nd Military District of the
7 JNA, where did it all go to?
8 A. Zagreb. It was left behind because that's where the biggest
9 radio reconnaissance battalion was with the most up-to-date equipment and
10 most of the equipment was left either at the Pleso airport or in the
11 barracks. Only some equipment was pulled out of Zagreb, which was then
12 later on used along certain axes. There were two such devices, I
13 believe, one of which was in Republika Srpska.
14 Q. The use of equipment of the former JNA, what happened with it
15 once the JNA withdrew from Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. In this area, those units were not quite so developed, and most
17 of the equipment was in the war reserves warehouses in Visoko and
18 Kiseljak and that's where it stayed. It was mainly equipment which was
19 rather obsolete or of lower technological quality, and we mostly relied
20 on older equipment and whatever was left in our possession.
21 Q. As for the time in the document before you, does it tally, to the
22 best of your recollection, with the time when you were in Kasaba?
23 A. We came from Bijeljina directly. Perhaps the time was between 10
24 and 11.00 in the morning. So the time designated on the document may be
1 Q. How long did it take you to reach Bratunac from Kasaba?
2 A. I can't say. It didn't take long but we were stopped along the
3 way. We stayed for some 20 minutes because we were stopped by a soldier
4 who stopped the traffic. On the road, around the bend, there was a group
5 of captured ABiH soldiers, the size of a platoon, so between 20 and 25.
6 I waited in the vehicle and I asked our soldier why the traffic was
7 stopped and whether we could go through. He said that we should wait a
8 little longer and that we couldn't go through because one of the captured
9 fighters tried to activate a hand grenade in order to throw it at the
10 guards who guarded them, so they were waiting for their superior or
11 someone else to clear it up.
12 Q. Can you tell the Chamber where could it have all been taking
13 place, as far as you are familiar with the area?
14 A. In Kravica, as one enters it, because all of the houses had been
15 burned down, so Kravica.
16 Q. En route to Bratunac, did you see any larger groups of prisoners
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you see or did you hear some firing on your way to Bratunac?
20 A. Not on our way to Bratunac.
21 Q. As you moved along that road, was there other traffic?
22 A. Only a few vehicles that we encountered along the way.
23 Q. Who did you meet with in Bratunac when you arrived in the
24 Bratunac Brigade?
25 A. I dropped by the brigade command and the duty officer was there.
1 I asked him about General Mladic, and where I could find him. He told me
2 he was somewhere in the area of Srebrenica. Since both of the officers
3 who were with me and my driver had not had any breakfast, I asked him to
4 find some food for them. I sat in the vehicle and went to Srebrenica.
5 I planned to come back quickly because I only had some information to
7 Q. Did you have a stopover in Potocari?
8 A. I had never been in that area before. Once I arrived there,
9 I thought it was Srebrenica, but as a matter of fact it was Potocari.
10 That is where I found General Mladic.
11 Q. I'm afraid I didn't understand you quite well. Did you meet
12 General Mladic in Srebrenica?
13 A. No, in Potocari. But at first, I thought it was Srebrenica
14 because I had never been there.
15 Q. Can you recall where you met General Mladic in Potocari?
16 A. Yes, I can. We talked in front of a building, was it a school
17 building or something, but a sizeable building. General Mladic was
18 giving an interview to a TV crew. There were several cameramen. I stood
19 on the side, waiting for it to finish, and I think, as the camera panned
20 out, I was also taped there together with some of the general's escort,
21 his security.
22 Q. How long did you stay there talking to General Mladic?
23 A. Very briefly, perhaps up to ten minutes. Yes, when I saw it
24 later, General Mladic took me along. There was a woman there in a house
25 nearby. He went there and he talked to her. That's what I could see
1 later on TV.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we next
3 together look at a short excerpt from the footage which is P1147. This
4 part of the Srebrenica trial video, V 9267. Can we start at 1.37 and end
5 at 2.38.
6 Q. Colonel, I wanted you to look at the footage and then I'll have
7 some questions of you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I think we've seen this before,
9 isn't it?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we did in this
11 part. This is what the reason is, and why I would like you to have a
12 look at it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then if I am mistaken -- Mr. Vanderpuye?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I tend to agree with my -- with Mr. Stojanovic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a look at it.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Colonel, did you have occasion to see this excerpt before today
19 in this courtroom?
20 A. Yes, I think it was broadcast on TV, if this is it, and if you
21 continue, I guess you'll see me at the doorstep -- on the doorstep.
22 Q. Do you recognise the person behind the woman in this still?
23 A. I can't make out the face. I don't know. Perhaps the one on the
24 left is mine.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
1 I'd like to show the last ten seconds, if possible.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Janet, please focus on the
4 man in the picture.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's me at the back.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question is this: Do you now recognise the person behind the
8 woman in this still?
9 A. That is me.
10 Q. If you know, tell us who is the person with the cap, to your
11 right from our angle?
12 A. It is unclear but it's probably one of -- one of Mr. Mladic's
13 security detail. And I don't see he's wearing a cap. Ah-ha.
14 Q. The person with the cap, who is to the far right in the still?
15 A. It is completely fuzzy, and I can't remember who it is.
16 Q. Thank you. Does the name Zvonko Bajagic ring a bell?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. Do you remember whether he was in the same place and at the same
19 time as you that day?
20 A. I really don't remember whether he was there. I don't remember
21 if Zvonko was there.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you still believe that this footage was made in
23 Potocari and not in Srebrenica?
24 A. I think it is from Potocari.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
2 this excerpt. It is already actually P1147. Apologise. Thank you. If
3 it completely corresponds in terms of the time counter that we relied on.
4 Very well.
5 Q. In that ten-minute conversation that you had with General Mladic,
6 tell us, what was the topic of your discussion and what did
7 General Mladic tell you?
8 A. That was the purpose of my coming there. That was why I came
9 from Banja Luka and went to Belgrade. It was the information on the
10 impending attack by the Croatian army on the Republic of the Serbian
11 Krajina. It was the first specific information that we had indicating
12 that these combat activities would most probably spill over to Republika
14 Q. In your view, was it necessary, in view of the significance of
15 the information, to convey it to General Mladic in view of the ongoing
16 activities surrounding Srebrenica?
17 A. Well, I believed that it was. I got there, although I have -- I
18 had some medical problems myself, I thought it was important, and I was
19 there to clear up any of his uncertainties or anything that had to be
20 explained or clarified. There was very little time left before the start
21 of the aggression of the Republic of Serbia against the RSK, and then
22 possibly further activities.
23 Q. In view of the information that you conveyed to -- or rather,
24 when you conveyed the information to General Mladic, was there anything
25 that came up concerning Srebrenica?
1 A. No. We didn't discuss Srebrenica at all. I saw that it was
2 being finished. There was quite a lot of old people, women and children.
3 There was this -- what was it, a factory down in Potocari where I saw
4 them. Nothing else.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I inquire with one of the answers? You said
6 there was very little time left before the start of the aggression of the
7 Republic of Serbia against the RSK.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Croatia.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia, Croatia.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That is what I thought might be the issue.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank
13 you for your assistance.
14 Q. At this point, did you receive any sort of instruction from
15 General Mladic?
16 A. No. General Mladic took notice of it and I did not receive any
17 instructions. I knew that other things needed to be done in that
18 respect, but I wasn't the one who would be taking any measures.
19 Q. This piece of intelligence that you conveyed to General Mladic,
20 did it prove to be true eventually?
21 A. Yes. The term that I had was the 2nd of August, St. Ilija's day,
22 the attack began two days later, so that was the only thing that proved
24 Q. The conversation you had with General Mladic, did it precede or
25 follow the video footage where we saw you, General Mladic and his
1 personal detail?
2 A. I had a dilemma about that but I think that it was after this
3 particular footage. There was first the discussion with journalists and
4 then I spoke to him, and if I recall correctly, then he tapped me on the
5 shoulder and went on to speak to this woman.
6 Q. Did you at any point in time inform General Mladic about what you
7 had seen at Kasaba and on the road from Konjevic Polje to Kravica and
9 A. I don't recall that I did. There were quite a few prisoners
10 there already, and probably General Mladic was receiving information from
11 all the units there and was better informed than I was. I was just a
12 person who was passing through.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, if I may just get clarity on the
14 witness's answer.
15 Sir, you said:
16 "I had a dilemma about that but I think that it was after this
17 particular footage."
18 Then you say:
19 "There was first the discussion with journalists and then I spoke
20 to him, and if I recall correctly, he tapped me on the shoulder and went
21 to speak with this woman."
22 Now that would mean then that your discussion was before the
23 footage, not after the footage. You are giving -- if he tapped you and
24 then went and spoke to the woman, the footage can only be taken at a time
25 when he speaks with the woman.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you spoke to him before the footage?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I see whether I can resolve the matter.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to cut matters short. In your previous
6 testimony, you were talking about the footage outside where you were at a
7 distance of 30 metres from General Mladic. Your previous testimony was
8 that you then had a conversation with him after that footage and that
9 this visit followed your conversation. Is that a correct understanding
10 of your testimony given in another case and in this case?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may explain it all now,
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please, first --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there is some sort of
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So when I asked you whether this is a correct
17 understanding, your answer is: No, it's not a correct understanding. My
18 next question would be in what respect is it wrong?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps you're not wrong. Perhaps
20 I am. When I arrived, General Mladic was engaged in an interview with
21 journalists and I was some 10 or 15 metres behind him waiting for him to
22 finish the interview. When it finished, I approached him and we greeted
23 each other and I told him that I had certain things to inform him about.
24 And then in some first statements of mine, I seem to have left out this
25 moment with the woman because I focused on what it was that I was telling
1 him, and when I saw this footage now, I recall that he tapped me on the
2 shoulder, he took me up to that house, he spoke to that woman, it didn't
3 last long, and then as we got out of the house, I took him to one side
4 and that was when I shared information with him. That's how it was.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we have footage 1, outdoors; footage 2,
6 indoors, with the lady; and after that a conversation. That is --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's move on.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Salapura, is it possible that you have a
10 problem with your chair?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's all right. It's a bit
12 steep but it's fine.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, I think with the back of your chair --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't dare lean back
15 because I might go all the way down, but it's all right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, then it's not all right. It should be fixed so
17 that you can't fall over at the back.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't. I'm leaning against the
20 JUDGE ORIE: The usher will assist you but he has to find one of
21 the knobs below the seat rather than -- have you fixed -- it's the left
22 handle if it's the same chair, just left hand, there is a knob which can
23 fix. Is that better?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But I think Judge Moloto still has a problem with
1 the sequence.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question put to you, sir, was, and this is at
3 page 32, lines 20 to 22:
4 "The conversation you had with General Mladic, did it precede or
5 follow the video footage where we saw you, General Mladic and his
6 personal detail?"
7 Now, your explanation you've just given to Judge Orie now is that
8 you had a discussion with General Mladic, you told him that you wanted to
9 talk to him, he patted you on the shoulder, you went into the house, then
10 the footage was taken, and then after you talked to him about the
11 Krajina. Now, the conversation that I thought Mr. Stojanovic had in mind
12 when he asks you about the conversation is the conversation about the
13 Krajina. Do I understand that correctly?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: So it took up -- is it now your explanation that
16 it took place after the footage? Not before?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- it seems to me that that's the
18 case. If it's so important.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank -- it's not very important. Thank you so
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a long time ago.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Following your conversation with
25 General Mladic, which of the two of you left the place where it was all
1 happening first? You or General Mladic?
2 A. I left right away.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any further gesture to the public audience will
4 result in measures taken by this Chamber.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
7 a moment, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please. Mr. Mladic wants to consult you.
10 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Colonel, did you stop at the Bratunac Brigade on your way back?
13 A. Yes, I did drop by the Bratunac Brigade. I collected the two
14 IT officers and my driver because I was driving myself from Bratunac to
15 Potocari. I left them behind to have their meal and then we all went
17 Q. In your best estimate, at what time did you meet again in the
18 Bratunac Brigade HQ?
19 A. At around noon, 1.00 p.m. I'm not sure. I can't say. It's been
20 a long time.
21 Q. Did you have occasion to come across anyone from the corps
22 command of the Bratunac Brigade at the brigade's headquarters?
23 A. I don't recall that I did. I think it was the duty officer who
24 was there only.
25 Q. Did you know the assistant commander for intelligence and
1 security in the Bratunac Brigade, Momir Nikolic?
2 A. I didn't personally know him. I had heard of him.
3 Q. Did you see him at any point during the day? Did you come across
4 him? Did you exchange any words with him?
5 A. I don't recall that I did.
6 Q. Colonel, did you have any sort of communications device in your
8 A. No.
9 Q. On your way back from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and Kasaba, did
10 you spot any larger groups of prisoners at any point along that road?
11 A. The group that was there previously, on my incoming journey, was
12 no longer there on my way back. I didn't observe anything else.
13 Q. Did you stop by the pitch at Kasaba?
14 A. No. On my return, a non-commissioned officer pulled the vehicle
15 over and asked that I drop by the battalion HQ and the commander Malinic
16 because he wanted me to convey information that they had no water. They
17 had no water to spare for the prisoners or even the soldiers there who
18 were guarding them, and he wanted them to be provided with water.
19 Q. And did you convey this -- so did you drop by and see Malinic?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Did you do anything to find ways and means to supply the
22 prisoners and soldiers with water?
23 A. Well, I conveyed that information to Malinic, and I suppose that
24 he, as a commander, saw to it.
25 Q. Outside the HQ of the -- Malinic's unit, did you see any UNPROFOR
2 A. Not at the time, I don't think so. There were just a couple of
3 his soldiers outside. I don't recall seeing an UNPROFOR vehicle. I saw
4 UNPROFOR vehicles in Potocari at that time.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to ask for one clarification.
6 Mr. Salapura, you told us that Mr. Malinic wanted you to convey
7 information that they had no water for the prisoners and for his
8 soldiers. Then some lines down, you said, this is line 11 on page 38,
9 "I conveyed that information to Malinic." Which information did you
10 convey to Malinic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, either there was a
12 difficulty in interpretation or misunderstanding. On my way back from
13 Bratunac, there was a non-commissioned officer of his, right? Who was
14 there standing by the venue where the prisoners were, by the pitch. He
15 waved to me to stop over and asked me to drop by the battalion's HQ and
16 to see the battalion commander and tell them that we had no water -- they
17 had no water.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ah, now I understand. It was the
19 non-commissioned officer who wanted you to convey the message that they
20 don't have water to Mr. Malinic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Malinic was to make sure that they
24 were supplied with water.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you, Colonel, for this clarification.
2 My next question is this: Did you, at any time during your stay
3 in Kasaba, have occasion to meet Colonel Beara?
4 A. No. I didn't see Beara as of the moment I went on sick leave,
5 and later on, even during the time when I was there, he wasn't at the
6 command post. I didn't see him anymore. I only saw him sometime in
7 August, I think.
8 Q. To the best of your recollection, after having stopped in Kasaba,
9 did you -- did you spend any time anywhere before your arrival in
10 Han Pijesak?
11 A. Yes. We were stopped by the police on the road from Kasaba --
12 well, perhaps one or two kilometres away, at a bend. They told us that
13 there was no further passage possible towards Vlasenica because they had
14 a problem with members of the 28th Division because there was an exchange
15 of fire. One could hear bursts of fire shortly afterwards. Then things
16 became quiet. I stayed there for some time. Later, they told me --
17 well, I asked to be let through to go to the command post because things
18 were quiet, but they said they couldn't let me pass just yet, and I told
19 them I would go at my own responsibility because my plan was to go to
20 Banja Luka the same day. They approved my passage. I armoured the
21 vehicle and went.
22 Q. Did you stay in Vlasenica in the Drina Corps command?
23 A. I didn't go there, to the Drina Corps command.
24 Q. To the best of your recollection, when did you arrive in the
25 Main Staff facility at Crna Rijeka?
1 A. Sometime in the afternoon. I can't be more specific than that.
2 I can't recall the hour. I can't be precise.
3 Q. As far as you remember, who did you find, then, at the
4 Main Staff?
5 A. I came to the hut where I worked, going to the office where my
6 analysts were. I brought the other two along and they unloaded their
7 stuff. Only Slobodan --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
9 the last name.
10 A. -- was there and Bora, the warrant officer who was the desk
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the family name of Slobodan again?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mamlic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Tell the Chamber whether you saw any of the Main Staff officers
16 at the VRS Main Staff command.
17 A. I don't know whether I encountered anyone passing through. It
18 was my intention to go back immediately. I had some back problems, so
19 I took some time to rest, but it didn't work out, so I dropped the idea
20 of returning and postponed it until the next morning.
21 Q. When did you, in fact, leave the Main Staff facility at
22 Crna Rijeka? When did you leave the area?
23 A. I left the facility on the 18th because the next day, as of early
24 morning, the road was closed for all traffic, from Vlasenica further
25 afield, until further notice, which was the 18th, as it turned out.
1 Starting with the 14th in the morning. Or maybe even the 13th in the
2 evening. Yes. At the briefing, at Miletic's, Mamlic told him the road
3 was blocked for traffic from Vlasenica onwards and that it should be
4 conveyed to all of the officers at the Main Staff that they could not use
5 the road from Vlasenica to Zvornik until further notice.
6 Q. Thank you. During that time, as of the 13th, late in the
7 afternoon, until the 18th when you left Crna Rijeka, did you at any point
8 find yourself in a situation to meet with General Mladic and talk to him?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you know that General Mladic, at the time, was away on
11 business for a while to Serbia?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The facility where you were physically present in those few days,
14 is it physically separated from the building where General Mladic would
15 be if he were to be at Crna Rijeka?
16 A. Yes. The buildings are separate. When he dropped by, he usually
17 went to the building where the Chief of Staff and the operations head
18 was. It was in that hut.
19 Q. Did you, at some point in time, assist Tribunal investigators to
20 identify the buildings and the offices in terms of who was sitting where
21 in 1995?
22 A. Yes, I do recall that.
23 Q. In the course of those four days or less than four days, while
24 you were at the Main Staff, did you have occasion to meet Beara at any
1 A. No. I told you already I didn't see Beara until August.
2 Q. During the four days, did you happen to run into General Tolimir?
3 A. No. I didn't see General Tolimir and I didn't even speak to him
4 on the phone because he was in the area of Rogatica and Zepa. He was in
5 charge of that part.
6 Q. I'm asking you this because I would like us to go through a
7 number of intercepts together. Before that, could you tell the Chamber
8 when did you meet General Mladic? How far back does your acquaintance
9 with him go?
10 A. When he took over his duty as the commander of the Main Staff.
11 Q. While you were still with the JNA, until the war broke out in
12 Croatia, did you have an opportunity to meet General Mladic?
13 A. No, never.
14 Q. When the war broke out in 1992 in Bosnia, you were with the
15 2nd Military District Command in Sarajevo?
16 A. Yes. It was the 5th in Zagreb and then it was renamed to become
17 the 2nd and stationed in Sarajevo.
18 Q. How did you leave Sarajevo?
19 A. As part of the column in Dobrovoljacka Street. We were attacked.
20 There were many casualties before we managed to pull out or get through.
21 Q. Were you also wounded? Were you hospitalised?
22 A. I wasn't wounded, although I still have back problems. I've had
23 those problems for some time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock, that's
25 one. I think it's time for a break.
1 Could the witness follow the usher. We will take a break of
2 20 minutes.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break and resume at ten minutes past
6 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
9 Could I inquire with you, Mr. Stojanovic, whether you're on track
10 in terms of time?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think I
12 will definitely conclude my cross-examination today, as was planned, or
13 perhaps earlier.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Colonel, we stopped at the moment when we were discussing your
18 previous contact with General Mladic. Please tell the Chamber whether
19 you had an opportunity to follow Mr. Mladic during negotiation with the
20 enemy side at any point during the war?
21 A. I worked a lot with UNPROFOR representatives and representatives
22 of the international community, so my answer is yes, and it was through
23 mediation of one or another international representative. That was in
24 Sarajevo at the airport. But General Tolimir was more in charge of that,
25 or he followed him around more. Outside the few times, I don't remember
1 having encountered him.
2 Q. In the performance of your duties, did you have contact during
3 the war with the Croatian side, as a participant to the war events?
4 A. Yes. Both the Croatian and the Muslim side.
5 Q. Were you in a situation to convey any requests by Croats for
6 assistance to be provided to civilians?
7 A. Yes. I did convey such requests to General Mladic, coming from
8 both the Croatian and Muslim side.
9 Q. Can you cite an example when you were asked by an enemy side to
10 provide assistance on the part of the RS?
11 A. Yes, because I was in charge of such talks, as well as my
12 counterparts on the other side. Zepce, the Croatian side, we accepted to
13 provide full support and supply because they had been completely
14 encircled. We even received their wounded and sick to be treated in
15 Banja Luka, in the hospital. I think that was in 1994 or 1995.
16 There is more, sorry. Let's talk about the Muslim side. For
17 example, East and West Mostar was divided and the population on the east
18 side was in a difficult situation. I was engaged in talks surrounding
19 the issue, and I received approval from General Mladic to provide
20 supplies to the eastern part, to the Muslim population, through our
21 territory. We also did not make use of a very unfavourable tactical
22 situation that the Muslims found themselves in due to their conflict with
23 the Croatian side and we did not get engaged in the conflict because if
24 we had, we would probably have gained some territory but there would have
25 been numerous casualties among both civilians and the military. The same
1 would have probably happened with Zepce.
2 Q. In such contacts you had concerning these requests by the
3 Croatian and Muslim military and civilian authorities, which you conveyed
4 to General Mladic, what was his position in that regard?
5 A. A positive one, and ultimately it was done according to his
6 decision. There was another example, when the Muslim-Croat conflict
7 erupted in late 1993, the Croats in the Lasva Valley and around Vlasic
8 were in a very difficult situation. They had nowhere to go. And in the
9 evening, I remember, I personally approached General Mladic at his
10 resting place and explained the situation. I suggested that we should
11 receive both the civilians and HVO soldiers in Herceg-Bosna to let them
12 pass through our territory and then to let them go where they wanted to
13 go. We even received their soldiers with their weapons. In my view, it
14 was one of the most humane actions in the whole war in
16 Q. Were you in a situation to accompany Mr. Mladic during the war,
17 when he went to Russia?
18 A. Yes, on one occasion.
19 Q. What kind of international contact was there between the Russian
20 authorities and the military authorities of the RS and General Mladic?
21 A. There were direct contacts, but verbal contacts, without much
22 practical substance, in terms of any significant aid or anything of the
23 sort. They went up to the level of minister, the Minister of Defence and
24 the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
25 Q. As the intelligence officer, did you have any contact during the
1 war with the French government and the French military authorities?
2 A. Not with the government, but I did have contact with the French
3 military envoy, and we were in frequent contact. It was quite normal.
4 They always sought contact, not only through the diplomatic corps but
5 with military envoys, and it concerned a number of countries throughout
6 the war.
7 Q. Do you know whether, in that period, as of June 1995 until
8 September 1995, were there any French intelligence elements in
10 A. I don't know about that. The French contingent was in Sarajevo
11 as part of UNPROFOR. They probably did have their security and
12 intelligence personnel as part of the contingent. All of the countries
13 that were members of UNPROFOR and SFOR did so, and that's quite standard.
14 Q. As an officer of the intelligence administration of the VRS
15 Main Staff, did you have any counter intelligence or other tasks which
16 had to do with the work of intelligence services of the countries
17 comprising UNPROFOR?
18 A. My service did not engage in counter-intelligence work. It was
19 done by the security service. I don't know. I did not receive such
20 information from them.
21 Q. In all such contacts you had with General Mladic concerning the
22 provision of assistance to the Croatian and Muslim population in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you at any point in time come across a lack of
24 understanding or a position expressed by General Mladic not to assist
1 A. No. I think he talked directly to the municipal president in
2 East Mostar at that time. It was Safet Orucevic [Realtime transcript
3 read in error "Irucevic"], I believe, or as far as I recall. So General
4 Mladic was in personal contact with him.
5 It is not Irucevic but Orucevic, in the transcript.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, page 47, line 13 of
7 the LiveNote.
8 Q. Thank you. Colonel, let me go back to the time when you spent
9 those four days at the Main Staff. What were your specific duties on the
10 four days between the 14th and the 17th of July 1995?
11 A. At the time, I visited the doctor on two occasions, and I didn't
12 have any duties. You can see that best in the transcript from the
13 Tolimir case, when I was a Prosecution witness in that case. As I left
14 for my sick leave, the agreement was that in the eastern part he should
15 be in charge of intelligence, and during my stay in Banja Luka, while on
16 sick leave, I was to coordinate the work between the intelligence organs
17 of the 1st and 2nd Corps and the 410th Intelligence Centre. Those four
18 days that I was there, I was waiting for the road to become passable so
19 that I may leave. I did not take part in planning or decision making.
20 I wasn't charged with any assignments or duties. So --
21 Q. Colonel, I asked you this because I want us to look at some
22 intercepts together which we would ask you to clarify.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P1362? And we
24 should mind the fact that the document is under seal. Thank you.
25 Q. Colonel, I will not read out the heading because the document is
1 under seal, but if you can see, it says 17 July 1995, and then we look at
2 the first two registered contacts. Please pay attention to 1115 hours.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. On the left-hand side?
5 Q. Yes, where the B/C/S version is.
6 A. 10 -- yes, 1115.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
8 we'll go through this together.
9 Q. Apparently X and Y are speaking together?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. X says -- or, rather, Y says: "It's me calling you again."
12 X says: "The line is not very -- I can't hear you very well, you
14 Y says: "I don't know what's wrong."
15 "X: Speak up.
16 "Y: Set off this way.
17 "X: Say it again?
18 "Y: Has Keserovic set off?
19 "X: Well, we met him when we were on our way here.
20 "Y: Well, he hasn't come to me yet.
21 "X: Well, in that case he might have first gone ahead over there
22 to Momir Nikolic's.
23 "Y: Uh-huh. So, you know, I spoke a little earlier with General
25 I'll stop here for a moment and ask you this: Do you know who
1 Keserovic is?
2 A. Of course I do.
3 Q. On the 17th of July, do you know what duty he was discharging and
4 where he was?
5 A. I think that he was the desk officer for the military police
6 within the security administration.
7 Q. Did you have an opportunity over those four days to meet
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. I'll continue reading the text.
11 Y says: "He told me that Keserovic is also supposed to come over
12 here to deal with these issues."
13 X says: "Right.
14 "Y: But what I told you this morning --
15 X says: "I told the commander, he ordered Salapura and an order
16 will be written or, rather, a request to the MUP for all of them to
17 return. Or rather be kept there."
18 "Y: Well, here there are going, the buses are there, they are
19 assembling, they've got your order."
20 X says: "Well, I know. Well, Salapura spoke with Kovacevic and
21 got a verbal approval that a shift would be coming during the day.
22 "Y: I know. But you can see the people here are already setting
24 Let me stop here for a moment.
25 Does this conversation make you recall any assignments you might
1 have had on the 17th?
2 A. On the 17th? The commander didn't give me any orders on the
3 17th, and I didn't have anything to do with any sort of transport or
4 anything else. Throughout my time up there I was at the command post, in
5 the hut and in my office. On the 16th, I was at the doctor's, and on the
6 17th I was given sick leave by my doctor again for some 20 days or a
7 month, and I wasn't getting involved at all. I don't know who this
8 Kovacevic is. I didn't speak to any Kovacevic.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. And I don't know where this Kovacevic would be, who that person
11 would be, by that last name.
12 Q. That's why I wanted to look at this, to have this clarified.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look up P1361 in e-court?
14 Again, the document is under seal. Can we have -- yes, page 1 of the
15 English version, as we have it. At one point, as I'm reading, I'll ask
16 that we turn to the next page in the B/C/S.
17 Q. Colonel, I'll quickly go through the transcript. It's
18 handwritten this time. As I was reading just now, the text is identical
19 up to the point that I will now read out.
20 X says -- or, rather, Y says: "However, what I told you this
21 morning --"
22 X responds: "I told the commander he ordered Salapura and the
23 order will be drafted or, rather, a request to the MUP to bring all of
24 them back. Or rather to keep them. Y - and can we now turn to the next
25 page in the B/C/S - "Well, they are leaving, the buses are collecting or
1 are assembling, they have your order."
2 Now, look at this handwritten version. It reads:
3 "I know, Salapura talked to Kovac and got his -- and got a verbal
4 approval or consent that the shift will arrive in the course of the day."
5 Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know anyone by the last name of Kovac?
8 A. Of course I do. Minister of the Interior.
9 Q. Can we agree that in this part, the intercept was substantially
10 changed from Kovacevic to Kovac?
11 A. Yes. And I had no contact whatsoever with Kovac. I didn't know
12 where he was at the time.
13 Q. Thank you. On the basis of this text, would you be able to tell
14 us who X or Y are?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know what this is about, what buses, what,
16 and no order, it was only Commander Mladic who could have issued me with
17 an order but I didn't receive any on the 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th or the
19 Q. Thank you, Colonel. And can I ask you this --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, just for my understanding, you said
21 the intercept was changed from Kovacevic and Kovac. Now, do we know in
22 which order they were created? We apparently have two versions. I'm a
23 bit lost about the one version and the other version because I think
24 I remember that I saw some handwriting in the previous one as well. I
25 don't know whether the parties can -- the witness apparently has got no
1 idea about what it's all about so it doesn't make that much sense to ask
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, absolutely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear, Mr. Salapura.
5 I now see that we have a -- the previous one we saw was written,
6 typewritten, and do I have to understand that there was a handwritten
7 version and that it then was transformed in a typewritten version, and
8 that they are more or less separately translated and that's why we have
9 two versions?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: In substance, Mr. President, that's about it.
11 There is a witness that's coming that I think can shed some light on the
12 practice and procedures concerning these intercepts.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but at this moment, so when you said, Mr. --
14 let me check that exactly. One second, please. Yes. One second again.
15 Yes. When you said that the intercept was changed from Kovacevic to
16 Kovac, if I understood you well, but I'll verify that immediately, that
17 the logical order is that it went the other way around. That is, the
18 handwritten version, which I take it was the first one, because you
19 usually do not produce a handwritten version if there is already a
20 typewritten version, in the handwritten version, it says "Kovac" and in
21 the typewritten version it says "Kovacevic." So it was not changed from
22 Kovacevic to Kovac but just the other way around. Yes. But that's not
23 what you -- well, it's not -- it's perhaps not without relevance,
24 Mr. Stojanovic, but apparently I do understand that we agree that that
25 was a -- perhaps not a confirmed and logically accurate line.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. That's
3 precisely right.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This has not got to do with
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. We will see how it unfolds, but I do believe in the chronology of
8 events the handwritten version came first.
9 Colonel, my question was: In view of the difference in the
10 transcripts, you stand by what you said, that you were not engaged in any
11 sort of conversation with either an individual by the last name of
12 Kovacevic or an individual by the last name of Kovac on that day?
13 A. Yes, I do stand by that, absolutely. And I can also state the
14 same for the people from the intelligence organ, that none of them were
15 engaged in these issues about transporting people, buses, et cetera,
16 except for the battalion where there is one person dealing with the
17 intelligence and the brigade as well. And there was only a handful of us
18 and we could not afford ourselves the luxury to deal with these things.
19 Q. Thank you. For the sake of the transcript, when I asked you
20 about the name of Kovac, you said yes, of course, you knew him, that it
21 was the Minister of the Interior. But would it refresh your memory if
22 I were to tell you that at the time he was Deputy Minister of the
23 Interior and that an individual by the name of Zivko Rakic was, to all
24 intents and purposes, the Minister of the Interior?
25 A. Well, I know that he was a Minister of the Interior but was it at
1 that time, I didn't have any special cooperation with the Ministry of the
2 Interior save for a rare contact. I did have cooperation with the State
3 Security Service but not with the Ministry of the Interior, only rarely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one thing. Thinking about the
5 structures and the events, was there a role for Mr. -- for the Ministry
6 of the Interior to be played in that context as we read that in this
7 intercept? Apart from whether you had contacts or not, but was there any
8 role for the Ministry of the Interior in this context?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here? I don't see specifically
10 what it was that MUP was doing here, a shift was supposed to come and
11 some people were supposed to be transported somewhere. I really don't
12 know what the role of the MUP would have been. As I told you, I wasn't
13 involved in it at all and I don't even know who participated in these
14 operations, which specific units.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I was not talking about the units. I was talking
16 about the role to be played by the minister or the deputy minister --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Deputy minister.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- but the higher-up authorities in the Ministry of
19 the Interior. Was there a -- could you imagine of any role in the
20 context of what we see here to be played by them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what this is about at
22 all. From what I can see, I don't know what this is about. I can't
23 grasp the point of it. Was it a combat activity, transportation of
24 troops, transportation of prisoners, I don't know.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If it was about combat activity, was there a role to
1 be played by the Minister of the Interior?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know to what extent and how
3 the Ministry of the Interior participated in this operation, the units,
4 or in which capacity, I’m not aware of it. Was it as they were
5 resubordinated to the army or separately? You have to understand that
6 I did not participate in the operation and I don't know who did.
7 I happened to be there by accident and I did not interfere with the
8 processes that were unfolding. I was there waiting every single day to
9 be able to return. I was not privy to this information. I did not
10 receive it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If MUP units were engaged there, would their
12 deployment and possible resubordination to the army, would that need the
13 approval of the Minister of the Interior?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so. I saw the MUP units,
15 as I said in the statement. They stopped me on the road. Those MUP
16 units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members of the 28th
17 Division that were trying to pull out towards Tuzla, from two sides, and
18 the road was passing right in between them.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, in your last answer, you said talking about
20 the MUP, "I'm not aware of them participating in any capacity." And then
21 in the next answer you describe how you saw them there involved in
22 activities. Any explanation for this -- what could be considered as a
23 discrepancy between your previous answer and the last answer? You said,
24 "Those MUP units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members of the
25 28th Division ..." That comes as a surprise if we have learned from you
1 that you were not aware of them participating in any capacity.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said, that I didn't know in
3 what capacity they were there, but as I was explaining my arrival, I told
4 you there were MUP members there who stopped me on the road from Kasaba
5 to Han Pijesak. They stopped me and said there was an exchange.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not what you said. That was not what
7 your testimony is, unless you challenge the accuracy of the translation
8 and the transcription. If so, do not hesitate to do it. We'll verify it
9 on the basis of the audio and then we will establish whether or not you
11 "Those MUP units were engaged in an exchange of fire with members
12 of the 28th Division that they were -- they were trying to pull out
13 towards Tuzla and the road was passing right in between them."
14 If you say, "That's not what I said," then we'll verify it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Perhaps not in so many
16 words but I said that I was stopped by the MUP members on the road, that
17 there was an exchange of fire, and that I asked them to let me through on
18 my own responsibility, and that they did. I didn't explain anything
20 JUDGE ORIE: You are evading the point I'm making, that at one
21 moment you say, "I wasn't even aware that they were engaged at all," and
22 in your next answer you tell us and you explain to us what they were
23 doing there at the time. That could be considered to be contradictory or
24 inconsistent. I'm asking for an explanation and you have until now not
25 given that explanation. Therefore, we will proceed.
1 Mr. Stojanovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, can we replay the -- this
3 part to see what I said, so that I can listen to it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We cannot replay it but it will be verified.
5 I asked you earlier whether you challenged it. You said no. Now I do
6 understand that you do challenge it. This portion will be reviewed.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Colonel, which road did you take on the 18th to leave Crna Rijeka
10 and go to Bijeljina?
11 A. Through Vlasenica. So I went from Vlasenica to Zvornik and then
12 Bijeljina. On the 18th, the road was open for traffic. And on the 18th,
13 my assistant Karanovic arrived from Belgrade, and he was also supposed to
14 arrive on the 13th or the 14th.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about the route. You have given that
17 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic, and once an answer is given,
18 please put your next question to the witness.
19 Mr. Mladic, audio problems? If there are any audio problems --
20 no, Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Given the fact that the last answer did not make it into the
23 transcript, I wanted to ask you -- actually that Mr. Mladic didn't hear
24 it, I wanted to ask you whether you saw any police elements along that
1 A. I don't think so. I was definitely not stopped anywhere. And I
2 don't think I saw anyone along the road.
3 Q. Thank you. Trying to conclude on the topic of chronology, I'd
4 like to ask you just this question. As of the 18th of July, 1995, how
5 long did you stay in the Krajina, i.e., when did you return to the
6 Main Staff?
7 A. I stayed there until -- I think until September or until the
8 Dayton Accords or just before. When was the Dayton? Yes, I was there
9 almost up to the Dayton Accords themselves.
10 Q. Can you recall when you met General Mladic again?
11 A. It was in August, at Ostrelj. He wanted me there. I was still
12 on sick leave. I arrived at Ostrelj by helicopter.
13 Q. What was the topic of your discussion and why did he want to see
15 A. Well, it was also concerning the attack of the Croatian army on
16 the Krajina. That was the topic.
17 Q. On that occasion, was there any discussion concerning the
18 Srebrenica and Zepa events?
19 A. No. We only focused on the situation unfolding in the area. The
20 attack on the Krajina had already begun and the units were pulling out
21 from Krajina via Ostrelj and --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness mention the last location,
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last location you mentioned?
25 You said pulling out from Krajina via Ostrelj and --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between Bosanski Petrovac and
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Colonel, do you hail from that area?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was your family forced to move due to the war?
8 A. Yes. I was abroad and returned, but that was later, when the
9 attack was prolonged or actually when it carried over into Republika
10 Srpska. My mother was left alone, and the neighbours managed to bring
11 her to the area of Banja Luka. I arrived a bit late for that.
12 Q. Allow me to put a few questions about the intercepts. Given that
13 I suppose you're familiar with the methodology of that kind of work, tell
14 us, please, by your experience in terms of intelligence work and
15 reconnoitring radio communication by the enemy side, such omissions as we
16 saw a moment ago concerning the first and last name, is that possible?
17 A. Yes, it is. It frequently happens, even nowadays. For example,
18 the MUP. There is a frequent mix-up between the security and
19 intelligence service. Even now, when I'm introduced by someone from the
20 MUP, they say, This is the man from the security service. And I say, I'm
21 from the intelligence. And they say, Well, to us it's the same. But
22 it's not. It's possible that someone had another service in mind and
23 another person and my name came up.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We need to pause between
25 questions and answers in order to avoid overlaps.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please wait until the question is entirely
2 put and not yet start answering before Mr. Stojanovic, his words, have
3 been pronounced and have been translated by the interpreters and written
4 down by the transcribers.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We have some problems with the functioning of
7 e-court, although LiveNote is still working. I suggest that we proceed
8 up until the moment where we are so much bothered by the technical
9 problems that we will take a break.
10 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'll
12 follow from my colleague's monitor.
13 Q. Colonel, this last answer, when I asked you about the reliability
14 and possible mistakes when intercepting radio relay communication, could
15 you briefly repeat your answer because not all of it was recorded.
16 A. I said it is possible, and that the mixing up of positions is
17 possible, especially when it comes to, for example, this Kovac. If one
18 were to ask him today where I come from, he would say the security
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel kindly repeat his question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your question, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.
23 Q. Colonel, given your experience and work in the process of
24 intercepting radio relay communications, omissions or mistakes such as
25 the one with the last name, are they possible and how do they happen?
1 A. There are mistakes that are possible. However, there should be
2 the original documents pertaining to the conversations recorded. So a
3 mistake can be made by the person recording it or by the person in the
4 reconnaissance unit and, lastly, it can also happen with the person
5 processing the text. So much depends on that and who used that
6 information ultimately.
7 Q. In July 1995, could the warring parties be aware of such radio
8 relay communication being followed by the enemy side?
9 A. We knew it throughout, we knew we were being monitored. We
10 monitored their communications and they did ours.
11 Q. In military parlance, operational masking or jamming, what does
12 it mean? And did the VRS use it?
13 A. It includes a spectrum of measures and activities, resulting in
14 disseminating misinformation. It includes a number of tactical measures
15 and activities, fake manoeuvres, and transmitting fake information on the
16 air. Even misinformation in terms of the axis of attack can be
17 intentionally wrong and then it turns out an attack occurred on a
18 different axis.
19 Q. What was the reliability of intercepts based on your experience
20 in 1995?
21 A. It was assessed. Our analysts always designated the degree of
22 reliability. And we, intelligence men, when we received information we
23 also designated it with the degree of reliability. Sometimes we would
24 say it is correct or that it needs to be checked or probably correct. Or
25 that it needs to be verified and only taken note of.
1 Q. Thank you. To conclude, let us touch upon the topic of the
2 10th Sabotage Detachment. During examination-in-chief, at some point,
3 you mentioned an activity that the 10th Sabotage Detachment had with
4 regards to Srebrenica. What did you have in mind? Kindly tell the
6 A. You mean before this operation was carried out or what?
7 Q. Yes. June 1995.
8 A. Well, yes. Isn't it the 13th? There was a sabotage operation
9 which was planned and executed on Srebrenica. It was supposed to be
10 cautionary in nature, to send a message to the command and leadership in
11 Srebrenica to cease sabotage and incursions into RS territory. When this
12 operation took place in parallel with our preparations, they were
13 preparing another operation aimed at our territory.
14 Q. Where did you get that information from, which then you used as
15 the basis to plan a sabotage operation by the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
16 A. Well, the service was aware of the situation in Srebrenica up to
17 90 per cent. There were several sources of information, and one of such
18 sources was electronic surveillance although not to a large extent, but
19 we also had direct information. The service did have their own man
21 Q. When you say it had its own man, who did you have in mind?
22 A. A specific person.
23 Q. When you say "there" --
24 A. In Srebrenica.
25 Q. Based on the information you got, were you able to make a
1 realistic assessment of the condition of the units present in the
2 Srebrenica enclave?
3 A. Yes, I believe we were.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could I ask one question to seek
5 clarification. You said there was a sabotage operation which was planned
6 and executed on Srebrenica. Were you -- you were involved in the
7 preparation of that action or in the planning of that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is there any -- are there any plans, is
10 there any paperwork, which develops orders given that this was to be
11 meant a separate operation apparently from taking over the enclave, or
12 is -- or did I misunderstand you? You said it was intended to be of a
13 cautionary nature. Now, I understand that there is a difference between
14 the taking over of an enclave and to have a sabotage operation with a
15 cautionary nature. Do you -- could you provide us with further
16 information as to how that sabotage operation was prepared, had it a code
17 name, who was giving instructions to whom, and where we can clearly see
18 that it was not part of the taking over of the enclave, because that's,
19 as I understand, is your view on what happened.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. The operation was carried
21 out, as far as I remember, at the request of the Chief of Staff of the
22 Drina Corps, or the command of the Drina Corps, General Krstic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: My question was more whether there was any paperwork
24 which clearly shows that this is apart from the whole of the operation of
25 taking over the enclave of Srebrenica.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, absolutely. They were
2 drafted at the level of the detachment. There are instructions and I do
3 believe that the Tribunal, the Prosecution, have specific documents where
4 this can be seen. For instance, I can tell you, upon full
5 responsibility, that I wasn't aware of the fact that the operation for
6 the takeover of Srebrenica was being planned. I wasn't aware of it at
7 all and, of course, didn't participate in it. I was surprised to receive
8 information that Srebrenica had been taken, and I was in Banja Luka at
9 the time, I was on sick leave, and I didn't know that the operation was
10 being planned. And this operation was absolutely carried out
11 independently of that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And that was at what point in time, you said? I'm
13 just trying to -- was that on the 13th of July?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, June, June. Or
15 actually, sorry, 23 June. That was my mistake. I confused it with --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there was some -- the transcript was not --
17 yes, June is mentioned. Then it says, "Isn't it the 13th?" Yes, now
18 it's clear to me.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. Or should we --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an error, yes, not the 13th
21 but the 23rd.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stojanovic --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for making that
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this is the
1 right time for our break and I will then finish in the next ten minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: In the next ten minutes. Another option would be to
3 continue for another ten minutes, but I'm looking at you and Mr. Mladic
4 as well, and then to have a -- perhaps we take the break now.
5 We will take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
6 First the witness will be escorted out of the courtroom.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Colonel, kindly take -- tell the Chamber, to the best of your
15 recollection, when did you receive information about what had been
16 happening with some members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in July 1995
17 from the commander of that detachment?
18 A. It was the operatives of the 410th Intelligence Centre who
19 informed me about it, on the premises of the centre. They told me the
20 stories that probably originated from the members of the detachment --
21 these members of the detachment. I asked them where the commander was.
22 He was on annual leave at the time, but he was in Bijeljina, so I called
23 him and told him to come to the premises of the sub-centre of the
24 410th Intelligence Centre -- the sub-centre.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The question was when you received information. So
1 let's start with the when and then Mr. Stojanovic may have other
2 questions for you. When was it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't set a precise date. Was it
4 late December or early January, it's hard for me to tell.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. In those days of July 1995, was the unit militarily
7 engaged or was it resting?
8 A. As I said, I didn't give the unit its missions, and I didn't
9 participate in its preparations. However, what I heard was that the unit
10 was engaged in the combat activities which were supposed to make way into
11 Srebrenica. Apparently General Krstic asked that the unit be engaged for
12 this assignment. It was resubordinated to the command of the Drina Corps
13 for those purposes. It entered the town itself and completed its mission
14 without any losses.
15 Q. Once it had completed its mission, did you have any information
16 to the effect that one of the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment was
17 killed in a traffic accident?
18 A. I was told yes, that the APC skidded off and rolled over, and
19 that was when I came to the command post, when I asked about the
20 detachment. I called the command post of the 10th Sabotage Detachment,
21 and then the duty officer told me that the unit had participated in the
22 operations in Srebrenica, that it was given 10 days of leave, that the
23 soldiers were currently on furlough. My next question was where the
24 commander was. And he told me that the commander was injured and that he
25 was on sick leave. I asked him was it serious? He said no. And that
1 was it. That was the extent of my knowledge.
2 Q. Following all these months and the discussion with the commander,
3 did he tell you how it came to that, that the soldiers would be engaged?
4 A. Yes. I did say since they were resting, how come these soldiers
5 were there and he told me that these were soldiers who simply had nowhere
6 to go because their home was further away. They were soldiers from the
7 territory of the Federation or who had fled that territory.
8 Q. Did he tell you at any point that he was involved in any way in
9 the fact that these soldiers went to Pilica and Branjevo?
10 A. I told him, Please just answer the questions that I put to you.
11 Did you order that or did you participate in the issuing of orders for
12 the engagement in such operations? He said not. Then I asked him, Did
13 you have anything to do with it? He said no. Then I said, Very well.
14 And from what I remember, my words, I told him I'm not interested in
15 anything else. This is a problem and those whose shoe pinches in this
16 matter should deal with it. And that was my answer.
17 Q. Did you at any point inform General Mladic of the extent of your
18 conversation with the commander of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you inform General Tolimir of the content of the
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you at any point in such a situation that, following the
24 signing of the Dayton Accords, you would speak to General Mladic about
25 the specific members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Colonel, tell us, could the members of the 10th Sabotage
3 Detachment have been engaged by anyone from the security organs at that
4 point in time?
5 A. I don't know, but I don't think so, because under the rules, and
6 I can speak about the rules, this is part of the preparations for combat,
7 where you see which units will be in charge of providing security to the
8 area, who will be in charge of gathering prisoners, which -- who will be
9 equipping which camps, who will be in charge of transportation, escort,
10 security, et cetera, but as I said, I wasn't involved in the planning so
11 I can't tell you anything about it.
12 Q. You said at one point, and I will finish on this score, that the
13 10th Sabotage Detachment was involved in the Srebrenica operations and
14 was resubordinated to the Drina Corps at the request of General Krstic.
15 I'm asking you this as a professional soldier: If one of these soldiers
16 committed a crime, any criminal offence, who within the system of the
17 Army of Republika Srpska would be supposed to take steps to prosecute
18 such individuals?
19 A. Firstly, the unit commander would have to inform the security
20 organs who, in turn, would have to gather information and get in touch
21 with the prosecutor. Next, at the request of the prosecutor, they would
22 have to gather enough evidence to enable the prosecutor to initiate
23 criminal proceedings before a military court.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask a clarification. Would the
25 military police not be involved in that exercise?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Probably the military
2 police would be involved at a certain point because it's subordinated to
3 the security organs and to the commander. Depending on what their
4 assessment would be, probably the forensic officers of the military
5 police would be engaged as well. We did not have any inspectors in the
6 military police. We only had scene-of-crime examiners, forensic officers
7 who could secure the area, fix the traces, et cetera. And the security
8 officers would be dealing with the elements preceding the charges that
9 would be brought by the prosecutor.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One short and simple question, please a short and
11 simple answer as well: Was the military police to investigate any crimes
12 committed by members of the army? Or was it the civilian police?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a task for the security
14 service. It should have organised it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Not for the military police?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military police receives from
17 their superior, the chief of security, what their tasks are in that
18 regard. As opposed to the civilian police, the MUP, I have to stress yet
19 again that the military police did not have people in charge of
20 investigations. They could only document crimes for the sake of
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then if, as the question was put by
23 Mr. Stojanovic, if one of the soldiers has committed a crime, who would
24 arrest that soldier, if not the military police?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the military police, they
1 would arrest the people. It arrests, brings in, detains and guards the
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm asking you this question because you just said
4 to us:
5 "As opposed to the civilian police, the MUP, I have to stress yet
6 again, that the military police did not have people in charge of
8 Surely they don't just arrest. They must arrest and investigate,
9 don't they? To be able to give a docket to the prosecutor, the military
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not have inspectors --
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not talking about inspectors.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and people for investigations.
14 Military police units were military units.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, let's just stop there. I'm not talking
16 about inspectors. I'm talking about investigating. Once they are
17 arrested, they are arrested because of some suspicion, they must
18 investigate that to see whether, in fact, they have a case to put before
19 the prosecutor. Shouldn't they do that? Isn't that part of their remit?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. Scene-of-crime officers
21 can do that to the extent possible, to take pictures, evidence, objects
22 used to commit the crime, the location of the crime, et cetera. That's
23 within their remit. As for security officers, they arrange any further
24 procedure with the prosecutor, and they coordinate the work. The
25 prosecutor's office takes over the entire case.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I will conclude, Colonel, with the following question: When you
4 say the security organs of a unit, in the situation of resubordination,
5 who -- which is the unit whose security organs would be in charge of the
6 Main Staff, the corps or the brigade?
7 A. In cases of subordination, when the task was -- is being
8 implemented, then it is the security organs of the Drina Corps. Now,
9 believe me, I don't know who of the security officers was in charge for
10 the 10th Sabotage Detachment, in terms of security. In other words, to
11 deal with the information regarding the unit. Perhaps they had an
12 associate, someone who worked for them in the detachment.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel. We have no
14 further questions of you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, any need to re-examine the witness?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Indeed, Mr. President, I don't think I'll be
18 able to finish in the 15 or 20 minutes we have left. I just wanted to
19 advise the Chamber of that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: But I'll --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Of course which triggers immediately the next
23 question. How much time do you think you'll need if more than 15 or
24 20 minutes?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think closer to half an hour to 45 minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record, please proceed.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
4 Q. Colonel, let me just start where my colleague Mr. Stojanovic left
5 off. And that is on the question of responsibility, once there is
6 knowledge of a crime that's been committed by a soldier. As a
7 professional soldier, are you aware of your obligation when you come into
8 knowledge of a fact that a crime has been committed, particularly a
9 serious one such as the ones you were alerted to, what your
10 responsibility is to report that crime?
11 A. Well, when I learned about it, I believe everyone else must have
12 known about it by that time. Those who were supposed to know must have
13 known far in advance of myself. For the most part, I was absent. I only
14 appeared in the area, when was it, but there were officers there working
15 on it, and the MUP, the police, so it's not about one person. It's
16 everyone. Everyone knew probably. What was done, how much. It is the
17 security service that was in charge of it. Whether they worked on
18 gathering information, perhaps covertly, I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you there. The question was
20 what your responsibility was. Now you have told us about the
21 responsibilities of almost everyone else. The question was about your
22 responsibility. If this is all to say that there was no responsibility
23 for you, then just say none. But don't start explaining that it was
24 everyone's responsibility because everyone knew and earlier and -- what
25 was your responsibility when you learned about it? Could you answer that
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer it. In terms of my
3 position, I did not have any obligation to either investigate or deal
4 with it. But as an officer, yes, perhaps I could have -- go to the
5 security service and talked to a colleague from the security service
6 about where things were at that moment, et cetera.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Again, I'm again have to stop you. You said: "In
8 terms of my position, I did not have any obligation to either investigate
9 or deal with the matter." That's it. Then to say but as an officer,
10 your position was that of an officer, so you are not invited to give two
11 different answers to the same question. You said you had no obligation
12 to either investigate or deal with it.
13 Next question, please, Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. As a senior, high-ranking officer of the Main Staff, above the
16 corps level, are you saying that as an officer in that position, you had
17 no obligation whatsoever to report the crimes, particularly the very
18 serious crimes that you indicated in your previous evidence in the
19 Tolimir case were horrifying and that you couldn't wrap your head around
20 the scale of those crimes? Did you think as a senior-ranking officer in
21 the Main Staff of the VRS, that you had no obligation to report that, or
22 did you not report that because you were aware that everyone else knew
23 about it?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Absolutely what? There are two options given.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. Did you not report this crime because you knew that other members
3 of the Main Staff were fully aware of it, both how horrifying it was, and
4 of its scale and who committed it?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Or was it -- that is the other part of the question,
6 or was it that you had no obligation to report?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is correct. I heard
8 there, and also from my operatives that I talked to, and everyone already
9 knew that. I think it had already leaked into the town, let alone the
10 army. So I thought it was a process that was underway.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then try to see whether I correctly
12 understood your answer. Do you intend to say that there was an
13 obligation to report but that there was no need to do that any further
14 because everyone knew already? Is that how I have to understand your
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I believed everyone knew, and
17 from what I learned when I talked to my operatives, yes, correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You've answered my question. Mr. Vanderpuye will
19 put his next question to you.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE:
21 Q. I just want to see if I can get some clarification, Colonel.
22 When you say "everyone knew," you mean everyone in the Main Staff knew,
23 don't you?
24 A. I have in mind the competent organs from the security service,
25 starting from the battalion up, and probably at the Main Staff, at least
1 the people who worked in that area or on that topic.
2 Q. Let me just come right to it, then. You knew at the time that
3 you received this information that everyone in the Main Staff knew,
4 including General Mladic, about those crimes, right?
5 A. I can't say that everybody knew. I can't say that. Most did.
6 For example, some of my desk officers may have well been unaware. They
7 were busy with their own thing and did not have much contact with others,
8 but realistically speaking, yes, probably many people knew because it was
9 a sizeable operation. Those people needed to be transported, logistics
10 units engaged, transport organised, engineering -- the engineering corps
11 activated, so many people were probably engaged in it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I take you back to one of your previous
13 answers? You said:
14 "Everyone knew, I think even the whole town knew about it, let
15 alone the army," which is language which suggests that at least everyone
16 in the army knew and that many outside the army knew as well. Is that
17 well understood?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Absolutely, absolutely.
19 Certainly people outside the army knew. I can't say everyone in the army
20 knew, but many locals knew, people who saw things in the area as well as
21 people from the MUP, the members of the MUP, the whole system.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're changing your answers all the time.
23 Earlier you said, "everyone in town knew, let alone the army," which
24 means to the extent those in town would not have known, at least everyone
25 in the army would have known. And now you're twisting it the other way
1 around. I just make this observation so that you're aware of how your
2 evidence at this moment is perceived.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
5 Q. A moment ago --
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. You referred to logistics that would be required, engineering
8 equipment that would be required, people needed to be transported, people
9 needed to be secured, people needed to be guarded and so on and so forth.
10 All of those activities would have had to have been coordinated
11 centrally. Correct?
12 A. Yes. Somewhere at some level, whether at the level of the corps,
13 because there was a cooperation between the corps. But as I said, at the
14 beginning, I was not included in any planning for the operation and that
15 I have nothing to do with it. Now, who had what role to play, that can
16 be seen from the documents pertaining to the planning of the operation.
17 Q. I'm just asking you about what you knew, when you knew it. And
18 so when you had your conversation with Miso Pelemis, commander of the
19 10th Sabotage Detachment, and he told you of the extent of the engagement
20 of members of that unit in the massacres or the executions concerning
21 Srebrenica, you believed that other members of the Main Staff were aware
22 of this information, right? You've confirmed that?
23 A. Yes, yes. I believed it to be the case. Yes.
24 Q. And you believed that General Mladic knew about that information
25 as well, which is why you didn't report it to him?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. This is a directly
2 leading question outside the context of anything we touched upon in our
4 JUDGE ORIE: The last is not exactly accurate, but the question
5 certainly is leading, if you could rephrase it, Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. Did you believe that General Mladic knew about the crimes that
8 you learned were committed by members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment as
9 conveyed to you by the unit's commander, Pelemis?
10 A. No. Believe me. At that moment I didn't even think about it,
11 whether he knew or not. I thought that the competent security organs
12 knew by that time, and I thought it was a process that was going on for
13 some time and I was surprised then, and I still feel the same way. Even
14 today I find it difficult to comprehend that something like that was
15 possible, and yet it happened.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you asked for what the witness
17 believed. Could I ask you the following? Is there any fact to your
18 knowledge that Mr. Mladic would not have known what you said everyone
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not attend the briefings.
21 I was away quite a lot, and excluded from it, so I can't assert anything.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't have to assert anything whether
23 he knew or not. I'm asking you whether there is any fact to your
24 knowledge that Mr. Mladic would not have known. You said everyone in
25 town, let alone the army, knew.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not the army. Not -- well,
2 most of the officers who were supposed to know probably did.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not asking you who knew and who did not
4 know. I'm asking you is there any fact, to your knowledge, that
5 Mr. Mladic would not have known what you described as was known to
6 everyone in town, let alone in the army. Any fact. I'm only seeking
7 facts, nothing else.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a fact. I can't
9 provide it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then next question, please.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Colonel, aside from your legal responsibilities concerning the
13 information that you came into from Pelemis, it was your job, wasn't it,
14 as the chief of intelligence, to relay important information, whatever
15 information, to the commander of the Main Staff, whether that be through
16 General Tolimir, your immediate superior, or directly, as you did when
17 you spoke to him in Srebrenica on 13 July? Didn't you have a
18 responsibility to relay this information to General Mladic?
19 A. I did, yes. I did have an obligation to discuss it with Tolimir,
20 and I think work was being done on gathering information in that regard.
21 At least as far as I knew.
22 Q. You're the chief of intelligence of the intelligence
23 administration of the VRS?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. And you're telling this Chamber that you think, not know, but you
1 think that information regarding crimes of which you've testified
2 previously and reiterated today that you were horrified about, that the
3 scale was almost incomprehensible to you, you think information was being
4 gathered concerning those crimes but you don't know?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. You don't know that?
7 A. No, no. What I'm saying is that the security service must have
8 been gathering information and working on it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I again intervene --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Checking the information.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please. Facts you are aware of which would have
12 indicated that investigations were ongoing. That's what I'm asking for,
13 not on whether it should have been the case or whether you -- it would be
14 logical, but just facts indicating that the matter was investigated. If
15 you have any, please tell us. If not, tell us as well.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't. I didn't see anyone
17 being interrogated or investigated.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is given, no. Next question, please --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me put a question to you, Mr. Salapura.
21 Mr. Vanderpuye asked you just a couple of minutes ago:
22 "Didn't you have a responsibility to relay this information to
23 General Mladic?"
24 You didn't answer that question. You answered in a different
1 "I did have an obligation to discuss it with Tolimir."
2 It was not the question of -- about an obligation to discuss but
3 a question about the responsibility to report, to relay this information
4 to the commander, General Mladic. Did you have that obligation?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I discussed it with Tolimir. My
6 superior. My superior.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My question was very clear: Did you have, and
8 I repeat that, the responsibility to relay this information to
9 General Mladic? Which means to report, not to discuss, to report.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to General Mladic. I had to
11 speak with General Mladic, my superior.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: With General
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain? I sent intelligence
15 information to the -- to Mr. Mladic about the enemy, their plans, and
16 what was going on, but this was an internal problem which had to do --
17 well, I told you I discussed it with Mr. Tolimir, and obviously, it was
18 known by many people. So my job was over.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I was about to go to a different
20 area and I see that we are out of time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. We will adjourn for the day, and
22 Mr. Salapura, I would again like to instruct you that you should not
23 speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony,
24 whether that is testimony already given or testimony still to be given,
25 and we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same
1 courtroom. You may follow the usher.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,
4 Friday, the 21st of June, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom,
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of June,
8 2013, at 9.30 a.m.