1 Tuesday, 25 June 2013 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The Chamber was
11 informed, Mr. McCloskey, that the Prosecution would like to raise a
12 preliminary matter, although it was not clear whether it can be raised in
13 public session or that it should be raised in private session.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're okay for public.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is in response to Judge Fluegge's
17 question yesterday about why we went into private session in Tolimir on
18 the same subject and did we possibly need to do the same thing as he was
19 getting into the subject now, the subject being, as you will recall, the
20 witness is -- begins speaking about other members of his unit and people
21 from the Kozluk area. And in the Popovic case, when he got to that
22 subject, Mr. Nicholls and the Defence agreed that the people he would be
23 referring to would be in private session because some of them were going
24 to be Defence witnesses possibly and didn't know if they would want
25 protective measures. In any event, back they agreed that the mentioning
1 of those peoples' names would be in private session.
2 So then fast-forward to Tolimir, some of those people that he had
3 referred to had actually testified before. And in Tolimir I can see
4 on -- it was page 9549 he is testifying and responding to the testimony
5 that he was aware of, prior testimony of witnesses. And in that event I
6 stood up before asking him the names of the people that he's referring to
7 having -- responding to their testimony, and I said out of an abundance
8 of caution can we go into private session, because I'm not sure at that
9 point who he's going to say he's heard testimony from. And I probably
10 also wasn't exactly sure if those people had testified in private session
11 or open session. And so that's -- we do go into private session.
12 That's -- and he then gives us the names of the people that he was
13 referring to, and they were Dragan Jovic; Veljko Ivanovic, which is the
14 one yesterday you remember; and a person named Djordje Nikolic.
15 Now, it turns out that we looked at both Dragan Jovic and
16 Veljko Ivanovic, they're both 92 bis witnesses in this case, but they're
17 both -- they both testified openly with some going into private session
18 but basically openly.
19 Now, there are some other people from that community that
20 testified in private session, but he hasn't referred to them yet. I
21 don't think he's going to be referring to their testimony, though you
22 don't always know what testimony they know about because they learn about
23 a lot of things, but the way it stands now is he appears to be referring
24 to people who testified in open session, and his -- and he's responding
25 to what he heard them testify to. So I think we're okay.
1 I know that's a bit convoluted, but that -- that's my best
2 recollection of what occurred.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that's the case, the Chamber will consider,
4 unless, Mr. Lukic, you would then want to add anything, we'll consider
5 during the next break whether we'll convert the portions in private
6 session yesterday and the redactions to make them public again.
7 MR. LUKIC: Also, we would need your ruling, Your Honour, whether
8 we are going to continue in the open session, because we are going to
9 mention some more names.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Some more names. Of course, the Chamber has no idea
11 which names, and I do not know whether they are covered by the remarks
12 made by Mr. McCloskey. If you -- if you need just 30 seconds to give the
13 names to Mr. McCloskey or to mention them in private session, then we
14 would go into private session for a second. Perhaps the best is that we
15 go into private session for -- just to make it possible to have that
16 exchange. We move into private session.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 13282-13283 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 We went into private session a minute ago to deal with a
5 procedural matter. We have dealt with that, but we'll hear a portion of
6 the evidence of the witness who now enters the courtroom also in private
7 session. Therefore, we return into private session.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 WITNESS: SRECKO ACIMOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 [Private session]
11 Page 13285 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You said you went to the school in Rocevic and there you met
5 Popovic; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You came in a passenger vehicle.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was with you in the car?
10 A. I was alone. I came to Rocevic alone.
11 Q. From Malisic to Rocevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And back to Malisic. You claim nobody was with you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I said Jovic Dragan travelled
16 with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was he your driver in that period?
19 A. No. I told you Dragan used to be my driver before, but in that
20 period it was Goran Radic, and of course that can be verified and proven.
21 Q. Do you remember you sent Jovic to fetch a truck from
22 Mico Stanojevic?
23 A. No. I didn't send him. I've already explained in what way he
24 suggested to Popovic that he would be able to take one of these vehicles
25 from Stanojevic, because he was on good terms with Stanojevic.
1 Q. Is it right that Djoko Nikolic appeared at Rocevic with a small
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did he come on his own accord or on somebody's orders?
5 A. Probably somebody's orders.
6 Q. Do you know whose orders? Do you know it today?
7 A. I'll take some of your time concerning Djoko Nikolic. I have to
8 try to explain to you to what extent my memory serves me.
9 When Popovic ordered me that all drivers should be informed to
10 come to the school at Rocevic, all those mentioned by Dragan Jovic, in
11 fact, he tasked me with passing on that information. However, I tricked
12 him a bit. So I told Popovic that I needed to call these people by
13 phone, and after a while I told Popovic I could not reach them. They
14 were not at home, et cetera. They were on leave, while all the other
15 drivers were at the ready in their units because of all these events and
16 the circumstances at the time.
17 After all this, when I've told Popovic they were not at home,
18 Popovic was very displeased, and he was in a great hurry, and things were
19 not working out as he had imagined. He was pacing around the school and
20 I had to run after him, and we talked while he was going in and out of
21 offices and while he was giving some instructions to the soldiers
22 guarding the prisoners. Therefore, part of our conversation was
23 overheard by Dragan Jovic.
24 So coming back to an earlier part of our discussion, Dragan Jovic
25 said, "Why don't you tell him we have trucks too?" And then Popovic
1 tasked me to explain what kind of trucks we had, and then he cursed me,
2 saying, "Why didn't you tell me that before?" But I tried to explain to
3 him that those were not military trucks, those were civilian trucks used
4 for the purpose I've already explained to you. And then regardless of my
5 explanations, he ordered me to summon those drivers. And for all these
6 reasons, I believe I tricked him a bit, saying that the drivers were not
7 at home. And then a bit later, he ordered me personally to go and see
8 whether these people were at home. I can't maintain it with 100 per cent
9 certainty, but I believe I went to the addresses of these people, but I
10 can't be completely sure because it was a long time ago.
11 I warned those drivers, drivers Mico Lazarevic, Djoko Nikolic,
12 and Radivoje Jekic, that Popovic is looking for them and that they could
13 be used to transport prisoners. I talked to them very quickly. They all
14 lived near the school, 500 metres away from the school but not more than
15 1 kilometre, and I made it very clear to them that they had better make
16 themselves scarce. I believe Radivoje Jekic and Milivoj Lazarevic did as
17 I said, whereas Djoko Nikolic was too scared, and he did not dare take my
18 advice and follow the example of the two others. Instead, he came with
19 his vehicle to the schoolyard.
20 I've tried now to reconstruct these events, and maybe I've
21 overlooked something in the sequence because it's very difficult now to
22 remember all the details of things that happened 20 years ago.
23 Q. Thank you. At any rate, you did not carry out Popovic's order?
24 A. That's right, because if I had wanted to call up other drivers, I
25 could have called company commanders by Motorola, giving orders that all
1 the drivers, all the other drivers, should report immediately, but I
2 didn't do that.
3 Q. You were never held accountable for refusing to carry out the
5 A. I was not. No one ever instituted any kind of proceedings
6 against me in that regard.
7 Q. I'll try to summarise some points from your three statements
8 provided to the Prosecution regarding certain changes which occurred in
9 your testimony.
10 In the Popovic case, several Defence counsel suggested to you
11 that in each following statement you added new parts to them. Do you
12 remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You agreed with it, and you said that you recollected certain
15 things as conversations developed; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In your first interview with the Prosecution, you did not mention
18 that you were asked to provide a platoon from your battalion which was
19 supposed to take part in the executions.
20 A. Which interview do you have in mind?
21 Q. There are several interviews you conducted with Bruce Bursik.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you explained you were not asked about it; right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. In your first statement you did not mention Vujadin Popovic. You
1 did not say that you met him one day after the prisoners were brought to
2 the Rocevic school?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Well, is what I am saying incorrect, or is it correct that you
5 did not mention Popovic?
6 A. I did not mention Popovic. I wanted to clarify, since it was in
7 the course of initial discussions. So if you assist me, perhaps it was
8 in 2001 or 2002.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Which means it was seven years after the events, and off-the-cuff
11 it was very difficult to recall everything immediately. There are some
12 other things which I explained later in my subsequent statements.
13 Q. Is it correct that in the Popovic trial you said for the first
14 time you asked Popovic to evacuate the people from the school in Rocevic
15 and that he called the brigade and asked for vehicles?
16 A. As far as I recall, although I'm not 100 per cent certain, but
17 this assertion of yours may be correct. I agree. I asked him to
18 transfer the prisoners to the Standard barracks where there were better
19 conditions to keep prisoners. That was the only reason. And I requested
20 either that or that they be returned from where they had come from.
21 Q. Never in any interviews to the Prosecution did you mention a
22 young man who was a volunteer, and it is also something you mentioned in
23 the Popovic trial for the first time; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Also, just before the Popovic trial, for the first time you
1 mentioned the truck which arrived from your battalion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Also, just before the Popovic trial you mentioned the fact that
4 there was another soldier from the 2nd Battalion there who told Popovic
5 that there were some other trucks in the 2nd Battalion that can be used,
6 and you said it for the first time; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also for the first time mentioned the fact that the soldier
9 in question returned with a truck and a member of the 2nd Battalion;
11 A. I don't understand.
12 Q. You mentioned the fact that the soldier you mentioned returned
13 with a truck and another member of the 2nd Battalion, and you mentioned
14 it for the first time?
15 A. No. He returned with the truck only. He returned alone.
16 Q. Briefly, then, because we have a number of facts that I will try
17 to recall.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D1063 for that purpose.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I ask in the meantime one question?
20 Mr. Acimovic, you said a moment ago:
21 "I asked Mr. Popovic to transfer the prisoners to barracks where
22 there were better conditions to keep the prisoners."
23 Which barracks are you referring to?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Standard barracks in Kozluk.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan.
2 MS. HASAN: Just on that point as well. In fact, the witness did
3 provide that information in his 2002 interview. So Popovic wasn't the
4 first time that he had raised that, and that's on page 28.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: I think my question was the first time before the
7 Popovic trial, just before the Popovic trial. It's page 13, line 19.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And page 13, line 7 of today's --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- line 4 of today's transcript you asked the
12 "It is correct -- is it correct that in the Popovic trial you
13 said for the first time you asked Popovic to evacuate the people ..." and
14 so on.
15 That was your question today.
16 MR. LUKIC: I just said just before regarding this question I'm
17 asking now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
19 MR. LUKIC: Let's --
20 JUDGE ORIE: These are two different matters. The first one,
21 whether or not the witness asked Popovic for a transfer; and the second
22 is whether he said anything about a truck arriving. These are two
23 different matters. And I think it's in relation to the latter one,
24 Mr. Lukic, that you referred to a statement given just before the Popovic
25 trial. The first time you mentioned the truck which arrived from your
1 battalion, whereas earlier you said:
2 "In the Popovic trial you said for the first time you asked
3 Popovic to evacuate the people from the school."
4 MR. LUKIC: I stand corrected then.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: We need page 29 in this e-court document, and it
7 should correspond to page 13094 from the Popovic trial. We need lines 22
8 to 25. I will read in English so the witness gets the proper
10 Q. I quote:
11 "Q. Later on, you say, 'This soldier left and came back with the
12 truck and a driver from the 2nd Battalion.' This is the first time you
13 mentioned this to the Prosecution, this Sunday?
14 "A. Yes."
15 A. I really believe -- well, I still don't understand your question
16 or your conclusions. I think -- well, I'm not sure I understand what
17 it's about.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Just this: You confirmed today that the driver
19 returned with a truck?
20 A. Yes. He went to fetch a motor vehicle, that is to say the truck,
21 and he drove it there. He did not return with a driver. It has a
22 completely different meaning. You're trying --
23 Q. Just clear it up for us.
24 A. I'm trying to say that he didn't go and fetch both the driver and
25 truck, but as he suggested it to Popovic, he said that he was on good
1 terms with the man and that he could borrow the truck. You understand?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try. I think Mr. Lukic is drawing your
3 attention to the fact that in the testimony he referred to that you
4 agreed that this soldier leaving and coming back with a truck was
5 mentioned for the first time the Sunday before you gave that evidence.
6 Mr. Lukic, that is what you had --
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And I think let's just leave apart at that moment
9 whether it was the truck alone, but at least with the truck the soldier
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is it also correct that on that occasion, just before the Popovic
16 trial, you mentioned for the first time that it was you who suggested to
17 Popovic that the prisoners should be taken from the school to Kozluk?
18 A. I'm not sure whether it is was then that I said it for the first
19 time. I think I stressed it even before that, but I'm not 100 per cent
21 Q. Very well. From Rocevic you went to Kozluk; correct?
22 A. When?
23 Q. When you left the Rocevic school, around that time, to make a
24 telephone call.
25 A. Are you trying to say that it was on the first day, the 14th?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the reason was to make a call?
4 A. Yes, certainly.
5 Q. Why didn't you call from Kozluk -- sorry, Rocevic?
6 A. Because I think at that time the school office was not available
7 for me to use the school phone. It was also my assessment that it was
8 far safer to discuss the topic, this topic we are now talking about, if I
9 resorted to a more secure, military line. In my mind it was quite
10 logical, given the fact that 15 to 20 minutes away by car, I acted
12 Q. Thank you. I asked you if you reported the fact that some of
13 your men took part in it. Can we conclude that individuals took part,
14 individuals from your unit, rather than your unit as a military
16 A. Yes, exactly as I stated.
17 Q. At some point you were accorded the status of a suspect?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did you receive that status?
20 A. Could you read something out for me or jog my memory? I don't
21 recall. Do you have in mind the interviews back in Banja Luka in 2001
22 and 2002?
23 Q. I can tell you it took place during your last interview with the
24 Prosecution on the eve of the Popovic trial.
25 A. I agree with you.
1 Q. Concerning reporting, let me ask you this: Is it correct that
2 you informed neither the commander nor the duty operations officer in the
3 Zvornik Brigade?
4 A. I apologise, but you are putting unclear questions. I require
5 more precise questions, specific questions.
6 Q. At that time did you send a message or call the commander, the
7 Chief of Staff, or the duty operations officer of the Zvornik Brigade?
8 A. I think it is well known - and it is for the umpteenth time that
9 I have to say again - that I tried to reach them countless times. I
10 tried to reach the Chief of Staff and the brigade commander but was
11 unsuccessful because I was told they were unavailable. The duty
12 operations officer was informed by me about the events.
13 Q. When you say the "duty operations officer," do you mean to say
14 Drago Nikolic?
15 A. No. I told you already that at that time I didn't know who the
16 duty operations officer was.
17 If you allow me to suggest something. You asked me if I informed
18 anyone. By now you have sufficient information, and I told you that
19 Drago Nikolic tried to persuade me, or he tried to exert pressure for me
20 to accept the orders and implement them, and now you're asking me whether
21 I informed Drago Nikolic. It is the man who carried out such orders, who
22 actually issued such orders.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Acimovic, there's no need to comment on the
24 questions. If they're unclear, please ask for clarification, but whether
25 or not Mr. Lukic should ask certain questions, we leave it to him and to
1 the parties.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We're near the end. I have a couple of questions left. On the
5 15th, when you called the duty operations officer in the Zvornik Brigade,
6 according to the documents we have the duty operations officer was
7 Drago Nikolic. Is it correct that on that occasion you did not recognise
8 Drago Nikolic's voice?
9 A. I don't know who the duty operations officer was. I always said
10 that it was either the duty officer or his assistant. I think with
11 Drago -- well, I don't know. I simply can't remember.
12 Q. What is confusing me is when you said that Drago Nikolic tried to
13 persuade you, so he must have been on the line.
14 A. I talked about the discussion which took place at 1.30 in the
16 Q. Yes. And on the 15th when you spoke with him again, you did not
17 recognise his voice?
18 A. On the 15th I asked countless times to speak to the commander or
19 the Chief of Staff so that the duty operations officer would put me
20 through. That's what I stressed thus far.
21 Q. Mr. Acimovic, thank you. This exhausts our questions for the
22 time being.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
24 Ms. Hasan, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
25 MS. HASAN: Yes, briefly, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication as to how much time
2 you would approximately need?
3 MS. HASAN: I would say ten, ten minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes would be exactly the time for the break,
5 Ms. Hasan, so that fits perfectly well to the schedule. Please proceed.
6 Re-examination by Ms. Hasan:
7 Q. Okay. Witness, you mentioned at transcript, page 8, today you
8 mentioned speaking to Trbic, and you had told him what had happened in
9 Rocevic. Who is Trbic that you're referring to? Can you give us the
10 full name and tell us who he is?
11 A. Milorad Trbic, one of the assistants of Drago Nikolic at the
12 Zvornik Brigade. He was in charge of intelligence. We're talking about
13 Milorad Trbic.
14 Q. All right. And this conversation that you had with him, do you
15 recall where and when that took place?
16 A. After all those events around Srebrenica, I don't know after how
17 much time, certainly it went to days or more later, I think I talked to
18 him in his office at the Zvornik Brigade.
19 Q. And do you recall, sir, telling us about the conversation you had
20 with him and that he had informed you about what he had been asked to do?
21 Do you recall him telling you that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us what he told you?
24 A. Well, I have to make an introduction so you really understand the
25 gist. While I was at Rocevic, when I headed for Malisic, Popovic called
1 the duty operations officer and said they must send him urgently to
2 Rocevic one of the two men who had been in Orahovac or in Petkovci, that
3 one of them must urgently come to Rocevic. When I told Trbic about it
4 during that conversation, he said that Popovic probably meant him
5 personally or Miomir Jasikovac, commander of the Military Police Company.
6 Q. Okay. And did he inform you about his role anywhere else besides
8 A. Well, briefly he said he was in close contact with the prisoners.
9 I'm not sure whether it was about Orahovac or Petkovci, but he avoided it
10 by leaving that location in a truck of the engineering unit that was
11 going towards the brigade, something like that. That's all I remember.
12 Q. Do you have any recollection --
13 A. Also, that day when Popovic wanted him, he found some other
14 business to avoid going to Rocevic, and to the best of his knowledge it
15 was Jasikovac who went instead.
16 Q. Okay. And, sir, perhaps this can refresh your recollection: Do
17 you recall Trbic -- are you telling us that Trbic had told you that Beara
18 had pressured him to participate in the killings at Orahovac and that he
19 had been asked by Beara to organise the killings there? Do you recall
21 A. I really can't remember these details now about Milorad Trbic,
22 but if I said that in one of my statements, it's probable that he had
23 been sent to those locations on some business related to the prisoners.
24 What I understood from him was that he avoided doing that by removing
25 himself from these locations, Orahovac and Petkovci.
1 I did not have access to information related to goings-on in
2 other units, but that's what I understood from Trbic, from what he told
3 me that time.
4 Q. Okay. Let's move on then. At transcript page -- today's
5 transcript page 7, at about line 22, you were asked about certain
6 individuals who were members of your brigade and who were involved in the
7 transportation of prisoners. And then again at page 11 you were asked --
8 you discussed your proposal -- sorry, that Popovic was looking for these
9 drivers to transport the prisoners. Could you clarify for us where these
10 prisoners were be transported to?
11 A. Well, you see, at that moment when Popovic made his decision and
12 asked for these drivers to transport the prisoners to Kozluk, I could not
13 be sure what he really wanted, whether he had already decided to take
14 those prisoners to the barracks at Kozluk or he intended something else,
15 but I left Rocevic hoping that Popovic had, after all, decided to take
16 the prisoners to the barracks at Kozluk to save them from what was going
17 on at Rocevic and that he had listened to me, because I could not accept
18 the alternative. I couldn't accept anything else that might happen with
19 those prisoners, because that was contrary to all human dignity, all
20 humane principles. I just could not imagine that there would be another
21 outcome, although there were indications already at that time that
22 Popovic had different intentions, as I have already explained. And I was
23 hoping when Popovic accepted to transport the prisoners to Kozluk that
24 this thing could certainly not be carried out in Kozluk, because there
25 were institutions there. There was the police station. And it would
1 have been very inconvenient to do that in Kozluk and very hard to keep it
2 from the public eye.
3 So all this told me that the prisoners would, after all, be taken
4 to the barracks at Kozluk.
5 Q. Okay. Just a couple of things arising from that. You -- first
6 of all, the prisoners, were they in fact taken to a barracks?
7 A. I've already said that I left. I was not at Rocevic outside the
8 said school when the prisoners were transported, but I learned later that
9 the prisoners ended up in the way they ended up, in the way it was
11 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, I have a couple more questions. Shall
12 I continue or shall we take a break?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that depends on how much time they will take.
14 If you say it's -- three, four minutes would be enough, then we could
15 consider to continue. If you say it would take another 10 or 15 minutes,
16 then your initial assessment was rather optimistic.
17 MS. HASAN: I can try and -- try and wrap this up in a few more
19 Q. Now, Witness, when you refer to -- to barracks, whose barracks
20 are those, which unit, the barracks in Kozluk?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer; the
24 interpreters did not catch it.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the barracks belonging to
1 the Drina valley detachment of special forces.
2 MS. HASAN:
3 Q. Okay. And you refer -- you've referred to them as the
4 Standard barracks?
5 A. Yes. Yes. Before the war it was a shoe factory called Standard.
6 Q. One other thing. Is it not the case that you had a conversation
7 with one of the soldiers at the school, and this is a soldier who was
8 standing pretty close to you when you were having your conversation with
9 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic, and that he had told you that these prisoners
10 were to be taken somewhere nearby, near the school, and that they should
11 all be killed in Rocevic. Do you recall that?
12 A. It was Popovic who said that.
13 Q. And this is something you had overheard?
14 A. I did not overhear it. I heard it. He had the time schedule, he
15 had the intention, and he just wanted soldiers from me to carry it out.
16 I just could not believe that something like that could really be done,
17 because it runs counter to all notions of a Serb soldier's honour.
18 Q. And, sir, this was after your conversation with Popovic when he
19 told you they were to be exchanged; isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. HASAN: I have nothing further, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Hasan.
23 Mr. Lukic, any questions remaining?
24 MR. LUKIC: Just briefly, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And you'd prefer to do that so that we can have the
1 break then?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, just one --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
4 Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Let me just ask you: Were the prisoners taken
6 to the Standard barracks or not?
7 A. According to the information that you have, too, they were not.
8 Instead, they were transported, busing by the barracks to another
9 location further from Kozluk, but they were taken probably by the road
10 that goes by the barracks.
11 Q. It was misstated earlier. Standard is in town and it was near
12 the Zvornik Brigade.
13 A. Yes, but that factory installation which is in Kozluk belonged to
14 the factory Standard.
15 Q. Not Vitinka?
16 A. Vitinka is higher up.
17 Q. Concerning these soldiers in your battalion, who commanded them
18 when they would come with their trucks?
19 A. There was no commanding involved or any other action when I was
20 present, but I told you that I later went to Malesici and I was not there
21 while the other things happened, so I can't claim anything or answer
22 these questions.
23 Q. So they were not officially placed under any other command by
24 virtue of official document?
25 A. No. I did not issue absolutely any instructions to any of my
1 troops regarding the prisoners.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing further.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
4 This then concludes your testimony, Mr. Acimovic. I'd like to
5 thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all
6 the questions that were put to you either by the parties or by the Bench,
7 and I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know who to address, but after the break the
11 Prosecution is ready to call its next witness? Then we'll take a break
12 and we will resume at 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness to call, who is going to
16 take -- it will be --
17 MS. LEE: It will be me, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, we -- the protective measures which are --
19 which do apply is face distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym?
20 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, we have first to move into closed session
22 in order to allow the witness to enter the courtroom. We turn into
23 closed session.
24 [Closed session]
11 Page 13306 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record, we're in open
4 JUDGE ORIE: We're now in open session.
5 Mr. Usher, would you provide the witness with the text.
6 Witness, may I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. You may be seated.
10 WITNESS: RM279
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM279, you'll first be examined by Ms. Lee.
13 Ms. Lee is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to your
15 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Ms. Lee:
17 Q. Good morning, Witness.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. There are certain protective measures with respect to you, and I
20 would like to -- these include the use of a pseudonym, voice distortion,
21 and image distortion, so I will not refer to you by name, but by
22 "Witness" or your pseudonym "RM279."
23 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 29004, please, which is
24 under seal.
25 Q. Witness, can you please take a look at the document on the screen
1 before you and confirm whether or not these are your name and your date
2 of birth.
3 A. That is my name, but the date of birth is the 22nd.
4 MS. LEE: With that -- with that correction, may I please tender
5 this document under seal?
6 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 29004 will be Exhibit P1613
9 under seal.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1613 is admitted under seal.
11 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter 29003 brought up on e-court.
12 Q. And, Witness, is it correct that you previously appeared before
13 this Tribunal in three cases, namely the Krstic, the Popovic, and the
14 Tolimir cases?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. LEE: And the document should not be broadcast to the public.
17 Q. In preparing to give evidence here today, did you have the
18 opportunity to listen to your testimony from your Tolimir case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you listen to that testimony in your own language?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And was the evidence that you gave in that trial true and
23 accurate to the best of your knowledge?
24 A. Everything I said in all the three trials was true.
25 Q. And if you are asked the same questions today would you provide
1 the same answers in substance?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And now that you have taken the solemn declaration in this case,
4 do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of your previous testimony?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 29003 into
7 evidence under seal.
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 29003 receives number P1614 under
12 JUDGE ORIE: P1614 is admitted under seal.
13 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would propose to deal with the
14 associated exhibits after cross-examination, and this includes as we said
15 the exhibits I would be using with this witness in direct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's accepted. Please proceed.
17 MS. LEE: Your Honours, with your permission, I would like to
18 read a brief summary of this witness's testimony.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Ms. Lee.
20 MS. LEE: I would like to, if it's possible, go into private
21 session for a part of this summary.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.
23 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MS. LEE: There were three interception locations used by the
23 2nd Corps. While each site was assigned a particular zone of coverage,
24 there were instances where coverage of interception would overlap and
25 more than one site independently processed the same communications. The
1 protocol employed at the respective sites resulted in the generation of
2 taped recordings of intercepted VRS communications as well as notebooks
3 containing transcription of these communications. The process required
4 intercept operators to record a given communication on reel-to-reel tape
5 machine, a selection would be made depending on the significance of the
6 communications, and a determination would then follow as to whether or
7 not to monitor a given frequency continuously. The operator would then
8 transcribe from the tapes the intercepted communications. The
9 transcriptions would be placed into notebooks that were provided by the
10 witness. These handwritten entries would then be typed into a computer
11 and subsequently dispatched electronically first to the headquarters.
12 Notebooks would be collected and replaced once they were filled.
13 Likewise, filled tapes would be collected and taken to the higher command
14 for further analysis.
15 Notebook transcriptions were kept in the custody and control of
16 the ABiH army until they were provided to the Office of the Prosecutor.
17 RM279 explains the chain of command regarding the intercepts. In
18 particular, he explains how the notebooks containing transcribed radio
19 communication and several reel-to-reel tapes by his units were kept in
20 the custody and control of the ABiH, the circumstances surrounding their
21 transfer to the Office of the Prosecutor between 1998 and 2000.
22 Your Honours, this concludes the summary of this witness's
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Lee. If you have further questions
25 for the witness, you may proceed.
1 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour. May we briefly go into private
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MS. LEE:
13 Q. Witness, you have previously testified in depth about the
14 operation of interception process, and if I may just ask that you tell us
15 briefly in a few sentences, in a nutshell, what that process was or what
16 that process involved.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have problems with the e-court system. It has
18 stopped at page 34, line 10, although on the left screens it continues to
19 function. I think we can proceed focusing on our left screens, and we
20 ask for the problem to be resolved as far as e-court is concerned.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. LEE:
23 Q. Witness, if you could please describe to us briefly what involved
24 in the interception process.
25 A. The process of interception was divided into several steps. The
1 first step, which was a prerequisite, really, was to secure equipment.
2 We mainly used radio amateur and ham radio equipment from amateur radio
3 clubs, and we procured such equipment for the reason that we wanted to
4 intercept and follow VRS communication. Once that stage was completed,
5 the first step would then be to search the frequency bands like someone
6 would do if sitting in a car searching for a station one wanted to listen
8 The next step would be to eliminate all such frequencies and
9 stations which were not of any interest, so selection in short.
10 The third step was to pinpoint those channels or stations that
11 were to be followed and that were then followed. Since there was no
12 possibility for one person to do it, we used reel-to-reel recorders.
13 Following the process of recording, the tapes were then listened
14 to and conversations transcribed into notebooks. The next step,
15 depending on the degree of urgency, was to have the communication taken
16 to the cryptographic unit so that they would be assigned their respective
17 numbers. The last step was to draft reports and send them in encrypted
18 form to our superior command. In our case, it was the intelligence
19 department of the 2nd Corps.
20 So that would be a very brief explanation of the steps that were
21 undertaken at the facilities.
22 Q. Witness, you just said that your unit would be searching for a
23 frequency, and did your unit have the ability to intercept telephone
24 lines, PTT telephone lines, used by the VRS?
25 A. Our unit did not have the ability to wiretap directly the PTT
1 lines, but they could be picked up by radio relay communication. So we
2 could listen in that way. We couldn't tap directly into the PTT lines
3 though. We also couldn't follow, monitor, certain bands such as SMC 120,
4 HVT 1, and FM 20 -- FM 200 used by professional military radio equipment
5 for relay communication, and we could not monitor those.
6 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 20973C on e-court, and
7 it's not to be broadcast to the public since it's under seal.
8 Q. Witness, have you seen this document before in preparation of
9 your examination here today?
10 A. I think I have, although I've seen a zillion such reports before.
11 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's see the heading. It says the "Army of
12 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and below that it has the name of
13 the northern -- the northern location, and it says "Strictly
14 Confidential," followed by numbers "11/13795," and it is dated the 13th
15 of July, 1995. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Does this report in the form that it's in, does this look
18 familiar to you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And can you tell us what the numbers 11/13795 indicate?
21 A. This would be the standard heading of an official report sent
22 from the northern facility. The digits mean the following: "Strictly
23 confidential," of course, designates the level of secrecy, and it was
24 sent from the northern facility. Number 11 means that it was the 11th
25 report produced or sent on the 13th following midnight. 3795 is the
1 date, so 13795. It was the simplest way to designate it. And just below
2 we have the full date, which is 13/7/1995.
3 Q. And was there any standard procedure as to the number of reports
4 that would be sent in a given day during -- in July of 1995?
5 A. Neither in July nor in any other month was there any kind of
6 standard procedure to send P3820 [as interpreted]. Reports were sent
7 unselectively as required by the communications traffic and depending on
8 the amount of information. At following midnight we would start
9 assigning numbers to the reports starting with the number 1. It could
10 conclude with 15, 18, or 25 reports in a single day depending on the
11 radio traffic of the opposing side. We also concluded each day with 00
12 hours, 00 minutes. Then the last report of the day would be included.
13 Q. Now, let's look at this document, the intercept recorded below
14 and it has a heading and it starts with 785.000. And then it has channel
15 11, and it has 17 hours and 30 minutes. What does this mean?
16 A. To easily navigate the working map and have a visual map of the
17 situation, it actually meant the following: The main frequency that this
18 conversation was intercepted was at 775.00 megahertz, and it is the
19 frequency of the RRU 800 device working up to 950 megahertz, and we used
20 it the most. It was intercepted on the -- on channel 11. So there were
21 two subgroups. The first one had 12 channels, and the second either 8 or
22 12 channels depending on the number of number of channels assigned to the
23 unit by the command. The figure next to it is the time when it was
24 recorded, then we have the axis, meaning that the signal was received
25 from south-east, looking from the location of the facility where the
1 conversation was intercepted.
2 Q. Below it says "Participants," and if we look at the intercept, it
4 "X: Is it possible for us to send about a dozen buses from
6 And then it says:
7 "Y: Call them to come immediately. There are now about 600 of
9 And then X continues and says:
10 "Fit for military service."
11 And Y says:
12 "Quiet, don't repeat."
13 Now, who are X and Y here in the intercept? Can you identify
15 A. As part of certain steps in the procedure, there were a number of
16 rules that were applied, one of them being applied here. We intercepted
17 this conversation, and those listening in could not overhear the
18 participants introducing themselves, whether they used their names, code
19 signs, or numbers. The X means that the person was unknown to those
20 eavesdropping, and the same goes for the person -- for person Y who was
21 on the other end of the line. So we have two interlocutors whose names
22 are unknown.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Ms. Lee, the witness said that
24 the conversation was intercepted at 775 megahertz, whereas the document
25 as you read it was 785. Is that just a mistake that you made, or is
1 there any reason why you refer to 775 rather than to 785? If the witness
2 could clarify.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I made a mistake. I'm a
4 bit removed from the screen, so perhaps it's sometimes difficult to read.
5 If I said so, it's my mistake. It should be 785 megahertz.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MS. LEE:
8 Q. Witness, were there instances where participants would be
10 A. There were, many a time. They would introduce themselves,
11 talking to each other, or on occasion one of them would introduce
12 himself, the other would not. It all depended.
13 Q. And would those have all been recorded by the intercept
15 A. All conversations, irrespective of the fact whether someone was
16 introduced or not, were recorded.
17 MS. LEE: Now, can we -- if we could scroll down the B/C/S
18 version to the bottom of the page and go to page 3 of the English
20 Q. Witness, you see at the bottom -- at the bottom right corner
21 "ZB/ZB." What do these letters represent?
22 A. If I recall correctly, these are the initials of the person
23 encoding the telegram.
24 MS. LEE: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter number
25 20973C into evidence under seal.
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection to this one.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 20973C receives number P1615 under
5 JUDGE ORIE: P1615 is admitted under seal.
6 Now, Ms. Lee, one additional question to the witness.
7 You said the letters ZB/ZB represent the initials of the person
8 encoding the telegram. Now, it would surprise me if there were two
9 persons ZB - of course it could be coincidence - but do you have an
10 explanation as to why we have the same initials before and after the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour. At the time it
13 meant, and I believe I can even recall the person's first and last name,
14 it means that the person in question both encrypted and typed out the
15 conversation from the notebook into the computer and when it was sent.
16 Sometimes you will encounter numbers as well, but those were assigned
18 JUDGE ORIE: So two functions here performed by the same person.
19 THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 21063A on e-court, not
23 to be broadcast to the public.
24 Your Honour, the record shows that the witness -- the witness's
25 answer does not appear on the record. He has nodded, but if he could
1 just answer --
2 JUDGE ORIE: He nodded in the affirmative. That's hereby on the
4 MS. LEE:
5 Q. Witness, do you recognise the document on the screen as the one
6 that you have seen in preparation of this -- of your testimony today?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MS. LEE: And, Your Honours, I have the original notebook
9 containing this intercept, and I would like to show it to the witness
10 and, if possible, put it on the ELMO afterwards.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed, and Mr. Ivetic has no
12 objections. He nods as well in the affirmative.
13 I think it was requested to be put on the ELMO.
14 MS. LEE: Yes. But before that, if Your Honours would like to
15 look at it as well, if it assists Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there's any need, we'll do that after it be
17 put on the ELMO. Can we put it be the ELMO? Can it be made public?
18 MS. LEE: Yes. Yes, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Any specific page?
20 MS. LEE: Just the cover of it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Just the cover of it.
22 MS. LEE: Now may I please have 65 ter number 29010.
23 Q. Witness, is this document a copy of the notebook that you see on
24 the -- that you have just seen?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender 29010 as an
2 exhibit, as a public exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 29010 receives number P1616.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Under seal or not?
8 No need to have it under seal. Then as a public exhibit.
9 MS. LEE: Now, may I please go back to have 21063A on e-court,
10 and the notebook could be removed from the ELMO and given to the witness.
11 Q. Witness, if you could turn to the page where the red tab is
12 located on the notebook. It's the following page.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What page is it in e-court, Ms. Lee?
14 MS. LEE: In e-court it's the same page, 0 -- it's the page that
15 is shown on e-court.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but for the Appeals Chamber later, if it ever
17 comes to that, red tabs are not visible to them. They do not know what
18 is on our screen at this moment. So therefore --
19 MS. LEE: I would ask then that page of the notebook to be placed
20 on the ELMO.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That doesn't help us out. Is it -- let me just see.
22 It's a two-page document in e-court.
23 MS. LEE: Oh, sorry.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We're on the first page.
25 MS. LEE: We're on the first page in e-court, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: First page of that document. Yes.
2 MS. LEE: And I have -- I am now asking the witness to verify
3 whether or not that first page corresponds to the page in the notebook
4 where the red tab is shown, and if that first page only could be placed
5 on the ELMO for Your Honours to see as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about these being -- that what
7 we have in e-court is the reproduction of what -- there seems to be no
8 problem there, so -- Ms. Lee, so it's a rather complex exercise you
9 engage in.
10 MS. LEE: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas - I'm looking at you, Mr. Ivetic - you could
12 just work on the basis of the e-court English and original. Is that --
13 MR. IVETIC: Well, I don't know what counsel wants to ask --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no --
15 MR. IVETIC: -- but definitely we don't have a dispute as to that
16 this is a reproduction of a particular page in that book.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps he could have a look at the book
18 and the Chamber would have a look at the book so that to know what it
19 looks like and then you just proceed.
20 MS. LEE:
21 Q. And, Witness, do you recognise this notebook to be one that would
22 originate from your unit?
23 A. As far as I can see, I believe so. Yes, it is from our unit.
24 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter number
25 20973 -- 20973A as the next exhibit under seal.
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Madam, the -- you're recorded on the regard
3 as "20973A." Did you want to say 2 --
4 MS. LEE: 21063A --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- 3A.
6 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: This number being corrected, Madam Registrar, it
8 would receive number?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 21063A receives number P1617.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P1617 is admitted. No reason to have it under seal?
11 MS. LEE: The document on the second page there is an initial and
12 a signature that appears on it, and this is the reason why I would like
13 to have it under seal.
14 JUDGE ORIE: In the original then it is admitted under seal.
15 MS. LEE: Now, may I please -- I would like to keep P1617 in the
16 B/C/S version on the screen, and I would like to call up P1581 that's
17 marked for identification in e-court and have the B/C/S version of that
18 document beside P1617.
19 Q. Now, Witness, do you recognise the printed document that's
20 appearing on the right to be one that was generated by your unit?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is the intercept contained in the notebook similar to the
23 intercept contained in the report?
24 A. Well, yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that should not be broadcast. That was
1 not requested.
2 MS. LEE: And now that's added, can we keep P1581 marked for
3 identification on the screen and have the first page of both English and
4 B/C/S. I would like to remove P1617 off the screen. And have both
5 English and B/C/S.
6 Now, Your Honours, this document was tendered during the
7 testimony of Witness Keserovic, during which the mark -- the document was
8 marked for identification pending information on the authenticity and the
9 origin of the document, and at that time an English -- a revised English
10 version of the document was ordered to be uploaded, and so the
11 Prosecution now moves to admit P1581 marked for identification as the
12 next evidence under seal.
13 MR. IVETIC: No objection to I guess changing the status of the
15 JUDGE ORIE: P1581 is now admitted under seal.
16 MS. LEE:
17 Q. Now, Witness, in the -- in this document itself, there's a word
18 that's appearing on the -- in the first line. It says "Badem." Can you
19 tell us what Badem stands for?
20 A. In this specific case Badem is the code-name. I don't want to
21 play smart, but I really remember it well. It's the code-name of the
22 Bratunac Brigade, and we have another interlocutor, somebody Micic, with
23 an unidentified interlocutor, X. I'm telling you the code-name of the
24 Bratunac Brigade from 1995.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. LEE: Now may I please have 65 ter number 21069E on e-court,
2 and it's not to be broadcast to the public.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we keep these documents for a moment on the
4 screen. In the English version we see on the bottom of the page instead
5 of M and B always question marks. In the B/C/S version, I think we see B
6 and X and M instead of. Ms. Lee, could you explain why that appears in
7 the translation?
8 MS. LEE: Have we called 21069E yet or are we still on the other
10 JUDGE ORIE: We're still with the previous one, and Judge Fluegge
11 asked for a clarification, a difference between the English text where
12 question marks appear. Could we go back to the --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We just had it on the screen. We want to stay
14 with it. I guess I realise we had the wrong English version on the
15 screen. Now we should have the right one. Perhaps that --
16 Madam Registrar could indicate which document is on the screen.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, currently we have P1581 on the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What explains the other version which we had
20 on our screen a second ago? Where did it come from, and --
21 MS. LEE: This is the translation -- English translation that we
22 received from the CLSS, and where they are -- question mark is I believe
23 they were not -- they could not make out what the handwriting version
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: I still have a question. Now, what we have now on
1 the screen, on -- on the B/C/S side exactly where Judge Fluegge was
2 asking, we do have an M as an interlocutor, an X, and a B. We don't have
3 a B on the English side.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If we can move further down on the English
5 page -- or go to the next page. Can we go to the next page in English.
6 There we have the B again.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
8 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 21069E on e-court, and
9 it's not to be broadcast.
10 Q. Now, Witness, we have just seen the same report of the
11 intercepted communication at 1220, but if you could now go to page 2 of
12 this report in B/C/S.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, in the English I see 1244.
14 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honour. Because this specific 65 ter number
15 only deals with the intercept time at 1244, I believe the CLSS --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We can see that now B/C/S, thank you.
17 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Now, Witness, in looking at this intercept on page 2 of this
19 document, the intercept at 1244, there is no reference to any date other
20 than the time of the intercept. Why is that?
21 A. Well, that's because the date is already in the header, and these
22 are reports already compiled in a set, conversations typed up the same
23 day, one after another.
24 Q. Thank you. Now -- so this appeared to be the third intercept of
25 this report. Was there any standard procedure as to how many intercepts
1 would be included in a typed report?
2 A. There was no standard procedure. There could be five, six, seven
3 conversations. It all depended on the length. As soon as we recorded
4 one conversation or two or three, we would take them to the KZ, the
5 encrypting unit, where it would be typed up. So it could not -- it
6 didn't have to go to one single -- from one single workplace. People
7 would take a tape as soon as it was full, whether it was two or three
8 conversations or five or six, but they were all from the same date as
9 long as they are under the same header, just different periods during the
11 Q. Thank you. Now, just looking at this intercept then at 1244, if
12 you wanted to know the date of it, where would we have to look for it?
13 Where do we have to look for the date?
14 A. We will look for the date on the official typed-up report, in the
15 header, because in our understanding a report becomes official once it's
16 typed up and encrypted. We can also find it in the notebooks, because
17 when an entry is begun, the date is written, and then you write
18 conversations in their sequence until the end of the day, until 2400
20 MS. LEE: Can we go to the first page in the B/C/S version.
21 Q. On the top of the page there is the header, and is this the only
22 time the header would be shown in a report?
23 A. This is only page in the ninth report that day where you see the
24 header, so it was before eight. Later on, there's probably more.
25 Q. Now, if we could back to the second page of the B/C/S at 1244.
1 Witness, in the middle of this intercept there is reference to Zlatar 01.
2 Do you know what that means, Zlatar 01?
3 A. I think I know from the document, not from the VRS, but
4 communications documents of the Army of Yugoslavia. This was the
5 code-name for the command of the Drina Corps, and the commanding
6 officers, according to rank, received numbers. This should be a
7 commander or somebody from the command telephone Zlatar 01, the first
8 man, man number one in the Drina Corps, whereas Zlatar without any number
9 was the telephone exchange or the code-name of the unit. The operator of
10 that particular telephone would pick it up.
11 MS. LEE: Now, Your Honours, I would like to tender this
12 intercept as the next exhibit under seal.
13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, the B/C/S and the English do not
14 correlate to one another, so I think that we have to have a new, I guess,
15 translation because the entirety of the B/C/S is not translated in the
16 English translation that is in e-court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I do understand that the Prosecution did
18 not want to change the original document and has explained in quite some
19 detail where the header at the beginning of the day first, at least
20 before the first intercept, is translated on the top of the English and
21 then it continues partial translation. So I do understand that you only
22 rely on the header and on the 1244 communication, but you did not want to
23 manipulate the original B/C/S one, but you do not rely on any of the
24 other conversations which are not translated, if I understand you well.
25 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: With this explanation, Mr. Ivetic, still objection?
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, an objection is just pointing to the
3 standard procedure that's been in this case that you have made us re-do
4 exhibits if the part that we're relying upon and that is translated is
5 not the entirety of the exhibit. So I'm just asking for instructions
6 from the Chamber.
7 MS. LEE: If I may respond, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
9 MS. LEE: This 65 ter number you'll see in the description that
10 it only relies on the intercept communication at 1244, and so the exhibit
11 itself has been translated because the portion that we're relying on has
12 been translated, and that's the only portion that we are relying on under
13 the 65 ter number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The document is admitted
15 into evidence.
16 Madam Registrar, the number it would receive is?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 21069E receives number P1618 under
19 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P1618 is admitted under seal. Please
20 proceed -- not -- please do not proceed I would say because it's time for
21 a break.
22 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We would like to see
23 you back after the break. We have -- first the curtains should be down
24 for you to leave the courtroom. So we first move into closed session,
25 and we resume in closed session after the break and then to turn into
1 open session once the witness has reached his chair.
2 [Closed session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Ms. Lee, you may proceed once the curtains are up.
18 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 Q. Witness, the document that you were just looking at, P1618, it
20 had -- it's stated participants X and Trbic.
21 MS. LEE: May I please have that Exhibit 1618 back on the screen.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it should not be broadcast.
23 MS. LEE: And it should not be broadcast, yes.
24 Sorry, it's P1618. It was 65 ter number 21069E, and it should be
25 on page 2 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. Witness, when you look at this intercept, it says participants, X
2 and Trbic. And I would like to know how did the intercept operators
3 identify the participants?
4 A. I'm sorry, what I'm seeing is -- oh, here it is. You can repeat
5 the question, please.
6 Q. It says participants X and Trbic, and I would like to know how
7 the intercept operators identified the participants. Generally, not
8 specifically in relation to this intercept, but generally how did the
9 intercept operators identify participants when they were listening in to
11 A. There were several ways. The first, the worst one, is when the
12 interlocutors do not say their names. They do not even say the
13 code-name, so you put X and Y. The second way is when the interlocutor
14 introduces himself. The third way is to identify them by their personal
15 characteristics. Everybody has their own voice modulation and other
16 personal features. You can also identify them from the locations they're
17 calling or they would reveal their identity by calling for Zlatar 01, and
18 we know who Zlatar 01 is, we know it from the code list. So there are
19 several ways, but one thing that's sure is that the interceptors never
20 wrote down a name that has not been verified or confirmed.
21 MS. LEE: Thank you. May I please have 65 ter number 21135B on
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if the Prosecution could release
24 the translation of the document. Thank you.
25 MS. LEE:
1 Q. Witness, the document on your left screen, do you recognise this
2 document as a document that would have originated from your unit?
3 A. I apologise again, but there's nothing on my screen.
4 MS. LEE: Could the witness be assisted.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not sure whether we have the English
7 translation, Madam Lee, on the screen.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that it?
9 MS. LEE: I think Ms. Stewart says it has been released. The
10 English translation has been released on e-court.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But what we see this moment the left part of the
12 screen, the time indications are different from what we see on the right
13 part of our screen. I see 1304 and I see 1334.
14 MS. LEE: Yes. I believe the English translation is that from
15 the previous exhibit, which was P1618 that has not been removed from the
17 Can I have the -- okay. I see the --
18 JUDGE ORIE: 1304, Colonel Cerovic seems to be both in English
19 and in B/C/S. B/C/S in handwritten -- in handwriting on our screen. I
20 think we are there.
21 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Q. Witness, do you recognise this document to be one that would have
23 come from your unit?
24 A. I think it is.
25 MS. LEE: Now, may I please have -- may I please keep the B/C/S
1 version on the screen and have 65 ter number 21135F on the right side of
2 the screen.
3 Q. Witness, do you recognise the document on the right to be a
4 report that would have been generated from your unit?
5 A. Yes. It's easier now. It's a report that came from the
6 installation in the north.
7 Q. And looking at the date, the frequency number, and the time, does
8 the report correspond to the intercept contained in the notebook?
9 A. Yes. We see here that it's the sixth report in sequence of the
10 21st of July, 1995. The connection on RRU 1 was monitored, and the
11 participants are Colonel Cerovic and an unidentified general, recorded at
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. LEE: Now, may I please have the handwritten notebook
15 removed, so 21135A removed, and have 65 ter number 21135D right beside
16 the printed report.
17 Q. Now, looking at the report on the left, can you tell us what that
19 A. This report on the left is not our report, but judging from the
20 title, it was sent by the CSB or the State Security Service; and that
21 day, on the 21st of July, 1995, they took this over from us. It's the
22 same interlocutors and the same time. It's the result of a co-operation
23 we had in order to cover as many channels as possible.
24 When I joined this effort, I established this co-operation and
25 collation of information. So they shared their information with us and
1 vice versa. This comes from a report of our men from the north which
2 they sent to their own base.
3 Q. And, Witness, you have previously -- you have previously
4 testified that there was sharing of information between the units. Would
5 this be an example of that occasion?
6 A. I remember it well that I stated earlier that there was no
7 quality co-operation. I asked from our superior that co-operation be
8 established because our ability was modest, whereas the ability to
9 monitor SDB networks were even more modest, was even more modest. They
10 worked with only one or two people at the most to cover it. The superior
11 command -- then the competent command approved, and we started not in
12 July but as early as March or April, and this is a result of such
14 MS. LEE: Now, may I have the -- the document on the left removed
15 and have 65 ter number 21135B on the screen, the B/C/S version of it. I
16 apologise. I think I meant to say 2113A -- 35A on the screen.
17 Q. Witness, looking at the notebook, do you recognise this to be one
18 that would have come from your unit?
19 A. I have said already that it is difficult without a heading, but
20 this notebook did originate from our unit. I see the signature as well.
21 I think it is a notebook from the southern location. The conversation is
22 the same as the one that was intercepted at the northern facility. The
23 time is different though, because here it says 1305, and in the northern
24 facility intercept the time is 1304. The participants are the same. The
25 difference is, though, that due to the proximity of the southern facility
1 in relation to the source, they were able to recognise the other
2 interlocutor, and it is stated that it is General Krstic.
3 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender 65 ter numbers
4 21135A, 21135B, 21135D, and 21135F as exhibits all under seal.
5 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the numbers would be?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 21135B receives number P1619 under
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 21135F receives number P1620 under
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 21135D receives number P1621 under
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
16 THE REGISTRAR: And 65 ter number 21135A receives number P1622
17 under seal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
19 May I can take it and may I hope that there's no confusion,
20 because the numbers are so similar, the one 211 as a start and the other
21 213, but apparently it has been verified. Because the similarity of the
22 numbers could easily create confusion, but it being verified, we can
24 MS. LEE: Thank you. May I please have 65 ter number 29017 on
25 the screen, please. It does not need to be under seal.
1 Q. Witness, do you recognise this document as a document that you
2 have seen in preparation of your testimony here today?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there are 20 items listed on this document. Did you have a
5 chance to look at all of these items, most of which were intercepts?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And can you confirm to us that all documents appearing on this
8 list originated from your unit?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I tender this document as the next public
12 MR. IVETIC: I think it should be under seal. No objection. It
13 lists the locations.
14 MS. LEE: Thank you. This should be under seal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number of this chart would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 29017 receives number P1623 under
18 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
19 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender all the
20 intercepts, all the documents appearing on this document. However, if I
21 could reserve to do that after the testimony of this witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you then. Please proceed.
23 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 04744 on e-court.
24 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map appearing on your screen
25 before you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I see several lines presented on this map. Can you tell us
3 what those lines represent?
4 A. First of all, this map is a copy of the working map pertaining to
5 the summer of 1995 and July of that year. The black lines represent the
6 radio relay axes used by the VRS and the VJ to maintain their
7 communications by radio relay.
8 Q. And can you tell us who created this map?
9 A. In a way, I was the person in charge, but several people worked
10 on it as well.
11 Q. Were -- were the people from -- the people who had worked on this
12 map, were they all from your unit?
13 A. They were people, officers from the intelligence department. We
14 were creating this map in early 1998, relying on the information of
15 analyses of intercepted communication from 1995.
16 MS. LEE: Now may we please zoom on the bottom right corner of
17 this map where there is some sort of -- where all the lines are joining.
18 Q. Witness, the lines where all the point -- the location where all
19 the lines are joining, do you recognise this location?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what is that location?
22 A. It is the radio relay hub at Veliki Zep used by the VRS, and they
23 inherited it from the JNA. It was one of the most important
24 communications hubs in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we zoom in a bit further. Thank you.
1 MS. LEE: It's clear. Your Honours, may I tender this map as the
2 next -- as the next Prosecution exhibit?
3 MR. IVETIC: No objection, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 04744 receives number P1624.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
7 MS. LEE: Yes, as a public exhibit.
8 JUDGE ORIE: As a public exhibit.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. LEE: Thank you.
11 May I please have 29005 on e-court.
12 Q. Witness, do you recognise this map as the one that you've marked
13 and during your testimony in Tolimir?
14 A. I believe it is.
15 Q. Now, on this map there are triangles. Can you tell us what those
16 triangles represent?
17 A. Well, for you to understand better, I'll mention this: In the
18 former JNA, home forces were red, whereas the enemy was marked in blue.
19 Communications systems were usually marked in black. The triangles
20 represent radio relay stations depending on their function, whether it is
21 the end point or a hub or simply a radio relay station. The symbols used
22 came from the former JNA.
23 Q. And there are numbers contained in some of these triangles.
24 Looking at the one that's in the middle beside the letters V and Z, there
25 are two numbers. There is number 800 and 1 in it. Can you tell us what
1 those numbers represent?
2 A. There should also be SMC included, but the SMC communications
3 system is something we couldn't intercept, so it is mentioned here that
4 from that facility RRU 800 and RRU 1 were used, the devices of the JNA
5 that we could monitor.
6 Q. And right beside this triangle there's -- it says "Panorama 99."
7 What does Panorama 99 represent?
8 A. Panorama 99 in this case means that it was the code-name of that
9 communications hub. Panorama without any digits is the code-name of the
10 General Staff of the VRS.
11 Q. And the triangle beside it it's written Uran, U-r-a-n. What did
12 that represent?
13 A. I mentioned it already in the previous cases. It was the end
14 point radio relay station established for the operations of mopping up
15 Zepa, and it used radio relay equipment 1. At the time we believed that
16 the station had been transferred from Pribicevac when the Srebrenica
17 operation was completed and was taken to the area of Zepa.
18 MS. LEE: Thank you. And now if we could zoom out from the --
19 from the screen a little bit. Thank you.
20 Q. Now, there's a line joining Zlatar, which is on the left top
21 corner of the map, and Panorama that we've just seen, and beside it there
22 are numbers, 785.00 megahertz and 834.250. What do these numbers
24 A. Those numbers are the frequencies at which RRU 800 was used to
25 establish communication between the command of the Drina Corps with their
1 superior command and their subordinate units through the Veliki Zep hub.
2 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender this map as the
3 next public exhibit.
4 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 29005 receives number P1625.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
8 MS. LEE: May I please have 29007 on e-court, and if you could
9 blow it up and then move -- show the right side of the document.
10 Q. Witness, there are two -- there are two circles on the right-hand
11 side. The one on the bottom has Z beside it, and it says "Palma." What
12 does Palma represent?
13 A. This is also from 1995. Palma was the code-name for the
14 Zvornik Brigade.
15 Q. And on top of that there is another triangle with number G beside
16 it, and it says the word Brana 99. What does Brana represent?
17 A. Brana 99 was established for the needs of the Zvornik Brigade.
18 It was at mount -- or Gucevo hill in Serbia. It was a radio relay
19 station, and it was its code sign.
20 Q. And this hub, Gucevo, did it have any particular importance?
21 A. In this case the units from the area of Zvornik and further up
22 north, it was very important from the aspect of establishing radio relay
23 communication. There was an area without any communication between Zepa
24 and Zvornik, so no direct communication could be established between
25 Zvornik and the Veliki Zep hub. The route actually went via Gucevo to
1 Cer, and from Cer directly by SMC to Veliki Zep. Both Cer and Gucevo are
2 in Serbia.
3 Q. And, Witness, you just mentioned the name Cer. Do you see Cer on
4 this map?
5 A. I see it. It is a mountain in Serbia known for the Cer battle
6 from World War I. On the map it is in the upper right-hand side corner.
7 Q. And is that the one with KA and Avali on it?
8 A. Yes. The rest of the letters mean that the route goes on further
9 afield in the direction of Belgrade and the General Staff of the VJ.
10 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I would like to tender this map.
11 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 29007 receives number P1626.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1626 is admitted.
15 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I understand I'm almost out of time. I
16 have one more document to show the witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please show it to the witness.
18 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 05300 on e-court.
19 Q. Witness, do you recognise this document as a document that you
20 have seen during -- during your preparation for your examination here
22 A. I do recognise it as such.
23 MS. LEE: Can we go to page 2 of this document. And page 3 in
24 the English version of the document.
25 Q. Witness, there are two names appearing on the bottom of the
1 document. One is Ms. Stefanie Frease and the other one is Sevko Tihic.
2 Do you recognise any of these names?
3 A. I recognise both.
4 Q. Who is Tihic, Sevko Tihic?
6 Q. And who is Stefanie Frease?
7 A. A representative of the Tribunal, of the Prosecution.
8 MS. LEE: Your Honours, if we could go into private session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 13343 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic
18 is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, and you'll find him to
19 your left.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
23 Q. Good day, sir. Before I begin asking you questions, I wish to
24 give you some instructions to follow. First of all, I need to have you
25 pay close attention to my actual questions so as to ensure that your
1 answers are the most direct and truthful answers to those questions. Is
2 that understood, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I also want to tell you if at any time you feel that we need
5 to go into private session for you to fully and truthfully answer one of
6 my questions, that you can you please ask me and I will accommodate your
7 request. Is that understood, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And one last thing before we begin with my questions. If at any
10 time one of my questions is unclear to you, sir, I would ask that you
11 bring that matter to my attention and I will try to clarify my question
12 for you. Is that understood, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, before moving to the main part of my
15 examination, I'd like to briefly touch upon a few matters that you've
16 discussed with the Prosecution counsel here today.
17 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up Exhibit P1622 under seal and not
18 broadcast the same.
19 Q. Now, sir, in your direct examination you were asked about this
20 document on the left-hand side of the screen, and you were comparing it
21 in relation to other documents, I believe which were -- that emanated
22 from the MUP and also from the other station. And you indicated, I
23 believe, that this station because of its proximity was able to identify
24 both speakers, and here we see that the entry in question lists the
25 participants as Colonel Cerovic and General Krstic, but there's a
1 notations "Could not be heard."
2 So I wanted to ask you, sir: How is it that the ABiH
3 surveillance units were able to identify General Krstic as a participant
4 in this conversation if, in fact, they could not hear him?
5 A. It is stated here "Could not be heard," but still they have their
7 Q. That part I understood, sir. And I don't understand your
8 testimony of how they were able to identify General Krstic if he could
9 not be heard, and I'm asking you: How were the operatives able to
10 identify General Krstic as a participant in this conversation if he
11 cannot be heard and there's not a single word that's emanating from him
12 in this conversation? Please explain that.
13 A. This is a supposition based on the rest of the conversation. You
14 should better put this question to the young man signed below. This is
15 not based on one conversation. This was a process that lasted three
16 years. People were so well-versed in these things that they had many
17 different ways of getting a very good idea. But it is stated here "Could
18 not be heard," and in our analysis we do not take it into account. But
19 since this concerns Colonel Cerovic and the particular problems they are
20 dealing with, this is an assumption that should be taken into account.
21 Q. Thank you, sir, and I understand it was a process over three
22 years and as you testified in direct, people got used to voice
23 modulations and mannerisms of speaking. And I'm asking you: How does
24 that take into account --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you'd just put your questions so as
1 that it doesn't hurt our ears at this moment.
2 Witness, if you can't hear someone and therefore the text of the
3 words spoken does not appear, how could you possibly then identify a
4 person? Because you can't put it in the context if you do not know what
5 he says, isn't it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Pleased proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. And so now I want to ask you, sir, what is the bases for this
10 document being generated and identifying General Krstic as a participant
11 in the conversation?
12 A. I've already said that the identity of General Krstic is not
13 established here; it is assumed, supposed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the point you apparently want to make is
15 perfectly clear to the Chamber.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 If we can have P1625 up on the screen, and I believe it's a
18 public exhibit, so that it may be broadcast.
19 Q. Sir, this is a map. Now if we could zoom in, it's one version.
20 Sir, this is a map that you were asked about in your direct
21 examination, and you testified, I believe, that the numbers followed by
22 the symbol MHz, or megahertz, were frequencies that were utilised on
23 these communications axes. And the one thing I want to ask you, sir, is
24 first of all: Who generated this map?
25 A. It was generated by a team from the intelligence department
1 headed by myself.
6 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Sir, can I take it that the frequencies that are identified on
19 this map, this exhibit, do not originate from any source material or any
20 officers of the VRS?
21 A. Mr. President, I have made an oath here four times. Absolutely
22 not. During our work in 1995, every map since we were short of maps was
23 also made literate. What does that mean? This data was put into
24 documents of the communication of the Army of Yugoslavia as empty. That
25 was kept in a safe box behind me. When the representatives of the
1 Tribunal appeared --
2 JUDGE ORIE: It may be that you misunderstood the question. What
3 Mr. Ivetic would like to know is that whether the data as written on this
4 map as to the frequencies used, whether that information came from VRS
5 sources or whether it came from other sources, such as your own
6 activities listening in to certain frequencies and then draw conclusions
7 that this communication between A and B was for that communication that a
8 certain frequency was used.
9 Is that, Mr. Ivetic, what you're interested in?
10 Could you please explain where you got it from, for example, the
11 785 megahertz and the other frequencies.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with all due
13 respect, I believe that Mr. Ivetic did not put his question very well. I
14 understood him as saying -- may I continue?
15 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated]
16 JUDGE ORIE: As I explained it to you, that's the way I
17 understood it. If you now understand the question, you're invited to
18 answer it. Where did you get the information from as far as the
19 frequency plotted on this map?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was obtained by
21 monitoring radio relay communications, the communications of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska in 1995, informed and archived. In 1998 they were
23 pulled out of the archive and this map was drawn.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Am I correct then --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry.
2 MR. IVETIC: Go ahead.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: The witness was interpreted to have mentioned the
4 name VRS or Army of Republika Srpska which doesn't appear in the same
5 answer. He says this information was obtained by monitoring radio
6 communications in 1995, informed the archive in 1998. If you could
7 please repeat the answer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Was it on the basis of monitoring radio
9 communications by the VRS?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995 we were monitoring radio
11 relay communications of the Army of Republika Srpska and we were putting
12 together a mosaic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. And those who were drawing this map and putting together this
16 mosaic, did they have access to source documents from the VRS identifying
17 the radio frequencies that were in use by the VRS during this
19 A. No.
20 Q. And insofar as the conflict was completed by 1998, could you tell
21 me what was the purpose of preparing this map in 1998? Was it to assist
22 the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?
23 A. Yes. I will emphasise that this map was drawn back in 1995 on a
24 foil, on a transparent foil. The -- the foil was used and reused. We
25 would erase one version and note down the new one. It was constantly
1 updated with new information, with the latest information.
2 JUDGE ORIE: This raises another question. Now, the final result
3 reflects what date? Because if you use a transparent foil and you change
4 it again and again, this is the result of what point in time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a reflection of July 1995.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No changes during that month?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that month there were no
8 changes. Changes occurred in September 1995.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic. I'm saying "please proceed," but --
11 MR. IVETIC: Break time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's approximately break time, unless you would
13 have one or two questions left.
14 MR. IVETIC: I could do one question, Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. IVETIC: On the same thought because I'm perplexed now.
17 Q. You indicated that there was a transparent overlay that would be
18 erased and modified. Could you explain for me if there were changes made
19 in September of 1995, how is this information taken from the overlay for
20 July of 1995? Would not have -- the July information have been erased
21 from the transparency if indeed there were changes in September of 1995?
22 A. Absolutely not. I just explained a moment ago. Every month the
23 map was updated following analysis. I can tell the gentleman that I know
24 that in 1994 there were changes made, in September 1995 too. Those are
25 the two that I know for certain. Code-names were changed and other
1 things. The July 1995 situation was reflected and noted down completely,
2 code-names, identification tables, code-names of units, operators, crews,
3 everything. It's 15 pages. We took from the archive the analysis for
4 July, and on that basis we drew a map. We can produce the same for 1994.
5 All this is kept in the central archive in Sarajevo. I remember very
6 well the code-name of the General Staff was Diploma in 1994. In that
7 version you would read Diploma here along with the code-name of units.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. Now we can have the break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break. We'll pull the curtains
10 down first, and we'll re-start at 10 minutes to 2.00 in closed session as
12 [Closed session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 Mr. Ivetic, when you're ready and when the curtains are up, you
15 may proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC:
17 Q. Sir, if we could just finish up with this map that we still have
18 on the screen. Am I correct that in 1998 when this map was generated and
19 the data was input on it, care was made to ensure that the frequencies
20 that were identified on this map correlated to the various notebooks and
21 reports from the time-period that had yet been -- had yet to be handed
22 over to the Prosecution in 1998?
23 A. We did not draw the map without any request. We only started
24 drawing the map when the Tribunal put in a request, and I can say that
25 the map was produced very quickly because we had all that information
1 that was available. The map reflects the situation in July 1995.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, there was a strong suggestion in the way
3 you phrased your question which may not be immediately clear to the
4 witness, that if need be everything would be adapted so that it would
5 correlate. Could you please ask factual questions so that the witness
6 also answers them, because apparently the witness did not understood --
7 did not understand the question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did understand his
9 question, and I know what he's driving at.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That may be that you think you know. Certainly you
11 did not answer the question as it was intended to by Mr. Ivetic, I take
12 it, Mr. Ivetic. Or did you consider this a full response to your
14 MR. IVETIC: I'd like still to get a response to my question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please phrase it again and do it in such
16 a way that you get that answer.
17 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
18 Q. Let me start off with what you did answer, and you said that you
19 did not start drawing the map until the Office of the Prosecutor began
20 making requests. Isn't it true that the Office of the Prosecutor began
21 requesting the notebooks for the intercepts long before 1998?
22 MS. LEE: Your Honours, there's evidence in this witness's
23 prior -- in his -- there's evidence in the witness's 92 ter where it says
24 the contrary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Which in itself does not disallow Mr. Ivetic to ask
1 a question like this, but your question again is confusing. It starts
2 with drawing up the map and then requesting notebooks, and that may
3 confuse the witness. Could you please take it step-by-step, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC: That's what I thought I was doing, Your Honours.
5 Q. Sir, is it correct that the Office of the Prosecutor of this
6 Tribunal sought from the BiH authorities the notebooks of the intercepts
7 long before 1998?
8 A. I don't know whether they sought it from the authorities. I can
9 only speak about what they sought from us.
10 Q. And then whenever that request came to you, this map was
11 generated; and when this map was generated, were the frequencies checked
12 to make sure they were the frequencies that were contained within the
13 notebooks of intercepts from the time-period?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I'd like to just finish with this topic by looking at 65 ter
16 number 20035, but it should not be broadcast. It might be confidential.
17 It has a confidential -- well, let's go into private session to be on the
18 safe side.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 13357-13361 redacted. Private session.
25 [Closed session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I have some assistance, untrained,
9 unqualified, but I take it the curtains will nevertheless move up.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I made a mistake when I said that -- thank
12 you, Madam Registrar.
13 I made a mistake when I said that we'd like to see the witness
14 back tomorrow morning. Could the Victims and Witnesses Unit be informed
15 that tomorrow this witness will resume only after tomorrow.
16 Now, Mr. McCloskey, how much time do you think you would need for
17 the witness of tomorrow who is without protective measures?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe our estimate is only one hour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: One hour. Is there an estimate -- I don't have
20 prepared for it.
21 Is there an estimate for the Defence.
22 MR. LUKIC: We asked for three hours, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that the witness should be --
24 remain stand-by on Thursday morning.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And, Mr. President, as you will recall, we
1 owe you tomorrow our filing on the demilitarisation agreement's
2 applicability to Article 60. I've been working on that, and I would
3 request some more time. Could we put that off until Monday?
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the Defence. I think the Defence has
5 filed its submissions, if I'm --
6 MR. IVETIC: We have filed, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you object against Mr. McCloskey's
8 request to have a few more days.
9 MR. IVETIC: Both lead and co-counsel are telling me we have no
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has no objection either. That
12 will be hard work over the weekend, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And I can tell you that we have found have
14 in the past we found stated that we did believe that the demilitarisation
15 agreement was applicable to Article 60, so part 1 is there.
16 One last short thing. I've also -- we're getting ready for
17 General Obradovic who we have offered a long filing ago for 92 ter. I'm
18 working on that. I noticed the pages for 92 ter on -- are probably very
19 long, and I just wanted to let you know I'm working on reducing those
20 pages or perhaps looking at viva voce, but I think I should be able to
21 reduce the number of pages within a reasonable limit. It's a rather old
22 filing, so we'll get up-to-date.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We're looking forward to the result of your hard
24 work, Mr. McCloskey, and then we'll seek the position of the Defence and
25 then finally decide, but we do not know yet what it will.
1 MR. LUKIC: Let me just inform my friend that if it's long we
2 would object, but if it's reasonable, we wouldn't object to their --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I would say a cup of coffee and a cup of
4 tea would certainly enable you to find out what is long and what is
5 reasonable, two concepts which are not under all circumstances without
7 We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, Wednesday,
8 the 26th of June, in this same Courtroom I at 9.30 in the morning.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day
11 of June, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.