Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13366

 1                           Wednesday, 26 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.  Madam Registrar, would

 6     you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to

11     raise a preliminary matter.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The last time when we

13     addressed the issue of shorter working weeks, we were not aware that we

14     received the report from the UN Detention Unit on the 19th, and that's --

15     that report dealt with the weight loss of General Mladic and although

16     they retreated a bit on that issue, still, there is their recommendation

17     to have four-day working week.  So we just want to correct ourselves at

18     that time, because at that time we were not aware.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  And another issue, if I may.  Next witness who is

21     coming, we estimated three hours, and it might be that we will need a bit

22     more, so we would kindly ask Your Honours to give us one extra hour, but

23     I just spoke with Mr. McCloskey.  We will finish our witnesses scheduled

24     for this week until the end of the week.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because I just had on my mind to ask the

Page 13367

 1     parties whether they could be so efficient today that three plus one hour

 2     which makes four hours could be fit into today's schedule so if everyone

 3     would be a bit shorter, but apparently that is not -- nevertheless, I

 4     insist on the parties being as effective and as efficient as possible and

 5     then we'll see where we end, but I do understand that for the remaining

 6     of the week you will stay within the schedule.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  That's my understanding, and that's understanding of

 8     Mr. McCloskey as well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's good to see that you agree on the matter.

10             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

11             No protective measures, as far as I understand.

12             MS. HASAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to the

13     Defence and everyone in and around the courtroom.  No, Mr. President, no

14     protective measures.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

16             Perhaps meanwhile I could use the time there.  The position from

17     the Defence in relation to the expert report of Dr. Kathryn Barr is now,

18     if I understand well, that there is no objection to admission of the

19     report.  Is there still a wish to cross-examine the witness?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can I get back to Your Honours in two hours?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Egbers.  Before you give

24     evidence -- you have a problem with the audio?

25             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

Page 13368

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the usher assist?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Could you assist --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you assist with the channel 4 follow at ...

 4             Let's try again.

 5             THE WITNESS:  That's better.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Egbers, before you give evidence, the rules

 7     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out

 8     to you by the usher.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

10     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Egbers.

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

13                           WITNESS:  VINCENTIUS BERNARDUS EGBERS

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Egbers, I know that you are not a native

15     English-speaking person.  Nevertheless, you have chosen to testify

16     without interpretation.  If you have any difficulties, which I do not

17     expect on the basis of your previous testimony, but please do not

18     hesitate to address me.

19             THE WITNESS:  I will.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You will first be examined by Ms. Hasan.  Ms. Hasan

21     is counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find her to her right.

22             Ms. Hasan, you may proceed.

23                           Examination by Ms. Hasan:

24        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 13369

 1        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record.

 2        A.   My name is Vincent Egbers.

 3        Q.   What is your current rank?

 4        A.   I'm a colonel of the Royal Marechausse, which is part of the

 5     Ministry of Defence of the Dutch.

 6        Q.   Do you recall coming to this Tribunal in 2000 and testifying in

 7     the Krstic case?

 8        A.   Yes, I did, ma'am.

 9        Q.   And do you recall subsequently testifying in the Popovic and

10     Tolimir cases?

11        A.   Yes, ma'am.

12        Q.   Have you recently had the opportunity to review your testimony

13     from the Krstic case?

14        A.   Yes, I have.

15        Q.   And was the evidence that you gave, your testimony, was it true

16     and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

17        A.   It still is.

18        Q.   And if you were asked about those same matters here today, would

19     you provide the same information to this Trial Chamber?

20        A.   Yes, I would.

21             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I'd offer the 92 ter statement,

22     65 ter 28977 into evidence.

23             MR. LUKIC:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28977 receives number P1629, Your

Page 13370

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MS. HASAN:  Thank you.  Mr. President, I propose to leave the

 4     associated exhibits until the end, and for now if I may proceed with

 5     reading a summary of his prior evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You've explained to the witness the purpose of

 7     reading it?

 8             MS. HASAN:  Yes, I have.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

10             MS. HASAN:  Witness Vincent Egbers served in the Royal Dutch Army

11     from 1988 to 1998.  In July 1995, he held the rank of first lieutenant

12     and severed as a platoon commander in DutchBat's Charlie Company in

13     Potocari.  His platoon was reduced from 30 to 20 men owing to VRS

14     restrictions.  The VRS restrictions on fuel, ammunition, food, and leave

15     of personnel prevented DutchBat from carrying out its mission.

16             From 9 July until 11 July, the witness took up a blocking

17     position, referred to as Bravo 1, located to the west of Srebrenica town.

18     From that position, he saw VRS tank fire on Srebrenica and on his

19     blocking position, as well as VRS soldiers entering homes in Pusulici

20     village.

21             On 11 July, the witness went to the Bravo Company compound in

22     Srebrenica where thousands of civilians had gathered.  He accompanied the

23     fleeing Muslims north to Potocari, and on their way there they were

24     shelled to the left and right by the VRS.

25             On 12 July, the witness escorted the first convoy of women and

Page 13371

 1     children and elderly men to Kladanj, though he did not know where their

 2     destination would be.  En route, people in Bratunac screamed and through

 3     things at the buses.  Serb soldiers were deployed along the road firing

 4     at the woods.  The witness saw an anti-aircraft gun on a vehicle near

 5     Sandici, and at Nova Kasaba he saw hundreds of men gathered at the

 6     Nova Kasaba football field, kneeling with their hands behind their necks

 7     and guarded by VRS soldiers.  He saw more men walking towards the

 8     football field also with their hands behind their next.

 9             On the morning of 13th July, the witness saw in Potocari men

10     being separated from their families and taken to the white house, and

11     women being pushed onto buses.  The witness entered the white house which

12     was guarded by VRS soldiers and was told that the these men would be

13     taken to Kladanj.  The men's belongings were in front of the house.  The

14     men looked terrified and indicated to the witness that they thought they

15     would be killed.  The witness saw a convoy of men leave escorted by

16     peacekeepers and later learned that the peacekeepers had been prevented

17     from continuing at Bratunac.  He escorted a second convoy the following

18     day of approximately 14 to 15 buses.  En route, Bosnian Serb soldiers

19     confiscated his helmet and vest at gunpoint.  On the way back from

20     Kladanj, Bosnian Serb soldiers at a roadblock stopped his vehicle at

21     gunpoint and took it.  He joined several other peacekeepers who had been

22     escorting convoys in a similar way.  The witness requested to speak to

23     the commander of these soldiers to complain about what had happened, and

24     he was taken to see Major Zoran Malinic at the school building nearby the

25     Nova Kasaba football field.  The witness prepared a written complaint and

Page 13372

 1     provided it to Colonel Beara, who he saw the following day.

 2             While at the school, the witness saw about 20 to 30 men, some of

 3     whom were injured, detained in a small structure nearby the school.  Now,

 4     the following day he and the other DutchBat soldiers were released from

 5     the school and arrived in Potocari late on the 14th of July.

 6             That concludes my summary.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you have any further questions, you

 8     may proceed, Ms. Hasan.

 9             MS. HASAN:

10        Q.   Witness, I'd just like to ask you about your blocking position.

11     While you were at Bravo 1, did you come under direct attack?

12        A.   Yes.  There -- there were a few T-54, -55 tanks by the

13     Bosnian Serb Army who were entering the enclave, firing at our blocking

14     position, so we had to -- to get rid of that position and get another

15     position.

16        Q.   Was anyone injured or was your equipment hit during the course of

17     that fire?

18        A.   Yes, we had two lightly injured DutchBat soldiers, and there were

19     some local Muslim men wounded by the same shelling.

20        Q.   Now, the -- I'm moving on now to the VRS restrictions, and in

21     particular the fuel restrictions.  In your prior testimony, you've

22     explained their impact on the patrols that DutchBat was engaged in.  Did

23     the fuel affect anything else, the lack of fuel?

24        A.   Well, the fuel was in -- was necessary for generators so that we

25     could have power, and the power could freeze our -- our food.  So by the

Page 13373

 1     lack of diesel or fuel, we couldn't do that any more, so we couldn't

 2     drive our vehicles, and we couldn't eat the food in the freezer.  So we

 3     just ate canned food.

 4        Q.   And did the lack of fuel have any impact as well in addition to

 5     food and water?

 6        A.   During the fall of the enclave, we gave all the fresh water we

 7     had to the refugees who were in our compound, so the -- the fuel was

 8     controlled by the Bosnian Serb Army.  They controlled how much fuel could

 9     enter the enclave, could enter UNPROFOR, and everything was -- we were

10     very dependent on that.  So the fuel -- we had -- we had some left just

11     in case we needed to get out of the enclave.  So that was in the

12     vehicles, and that's what we used during -- during the attack on the --

13     on the enclave.

14        Q.   Did you have a water purification says tell me?

15        A.   Yes, we had, but only for the -- for the -- for the troops.  So

16     we could make fresh water, but we needed fuel for that as well.

17        Q.   Now, in regards to the column that moved, the column of refugees,

18     I'm talking about, that moved on the 11th of July from Potocari, I'm

19     sorry from Srebrenica to Potocari, now, you mentioned that the column was

20     shelled to the left and right of the road.  Were you able to observe from

21     the direction from where the fire came?

22        A.   Well, it was indirect fire, so it was -- it came from the

23     southern part of the enclave, the southern -- where the BSA, the

24     Bosnian Serb Army was, and they were shelling by tanks or by mortars the

25     refugees.  So it came from the south.  And I think it was there to keep

Page 13374

 1     the column moving.  So it wasn't directly on the road, but it was on the

 2     left and the right side of the road.

 3        Q.   And you said to keep the column moving.  Moving to where?

 4        A.   Well, all the refugees were nearby the Bravo Company, and the

 5     only way they could walk was 5.000 metres to the north to Potocari.  So

 6     they had to move to the north.

 7        Q.   I'm going to move on to deal with the first convoy that you

 8     escorted out of Potocari.  Do you recall when you arrived at Kladanj

 9     you -- the disembarkation point was eventually in a wooded area, and

10     you've spoken before about seeing a woman who had passed away, who was

11     dead, there in the woods.  Do you know anything about the circumstances

12     of her death?

13        A.   The only thing I saw was that it was overcrowded, very hot, and

14     that they were very, very feared.  They didn't know what to expect, and

15     all the buses suddenly stopped in a wood with only -- there was nothing

16     surrounding them.  So they thought that they would be killed over there,

17     and that's the signal they made to me when they saw me walking nearby the

18     buses.

19        Q.   And did the -- sorry, when you say "they," who are you referring

20     to exactly?

21        A.   The refugees who were inside the buses, who stopped at Kladanj.

22        Q.   And were these the women and children and elderly men?

23        A.   These were the women, children, and elderly, and it was organised

24     by the Bosnian Serbs.  So all the buses stopped over there, and three of

25     the buses were able to move on to the disembarking point.  They got out,

Page 13375

 1     and then those three buses, when they were empty, they had to leave, and

 2     the next three buses had to drive to this point again.  So all the women

 3     and children, they didn't know what to expect, so they were terrified.

 4        Q.   And the women and children who disembarked at this point, did

 5     they also see the dead woman, and did this have any impact on them if you

 6     observed any?

 7        A.   Yes, I saw that, and they made a move with their finger from the

 8     left to the right in the neck like this.  So they thought that their life

 9     would end there.

10        Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many persons were on the buses

11     in the first convoy that you escorted?

12        A.   About 60 persons for each bus.

13        Q.   Now, let's just stay with Potocari but move forward to the 13th

14     of July, and I'd like you to --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, can I just ask a question about

16     this dead lady.

17             Did you observe any injuries or -- to her body?

18             THE WITNESS:  No, I couldn't.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you able to -- okay.  Let me withdraw that

20     question.  Thank you so much.

21             MS. HASAN:

22        Q.   So on the 13th of July, before you leave with convoy 4, so in the

23     morning, can you tell us about convoy 3 which left before you did?

24        A.   Convoy 3 was a convoy, a short convoy of buses with men who were

25     gathered by the Bosnian Serbs in the white house, as I recall it.  So it

Page 13376

 1     wasn't 14 buses.  I think there were three buses of only men.  They were

 2     elderly men, and I saw them stepping into the bus, and they -- they made

 3     the same signal from the left to the right on their throat, because they

 4     were sure that their lives would end, and they were offering money to me

 5     so I would have the money instead of keeping it with them, and I didn't

 6     take it, because I was sure that they would go to Kladanj as well, or

 7     they would be -- they were another -- there would be another solution for

 8     them.

 9        Q.   And, sir, in addition to seeing the men from the white house

10     being taken and put on the buses, did you have an opportunity to go into

11     the white house?

12        A.   I've been into the white house at the 13th of July after I heard

13     women screaming about the fact that their men and boys, mostly they were

14     elder men, were taken into the white house.  So I went there and my

15     soldiers, they weren't permitted to go into the house, but because I had

16     a rank, I just pointed at my rank as a lieutenant, and I told the Bosnian

17     Serbs that I wanted to see what's inside the house, and there were men

18     inside the house waiting in chambers.

19        Q.   And would those be the men that you saw being put on the buses?

20        A.   Yes.  Later on they were put into buses, and they were convoy 3

21     escorted by somebody else.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, the last two questions are pure

23     repetition of what we find already in the previous testimony.  Please

24     proceed.

25             MS. HASAN:  Could we see 65 ter 28978, please.

Page 13377

 1        Q.   Witness, do you recognise this sketch?

 2        A.   Yes, it's my signature on it, and I've made this sketch.

 3        Q.   Now, you've made these markings in red during the -- your

 4     testimony in the Tolimir case.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 6        Q.   All right.  Can you --

 7             MS. HASAN:  If we could give the witness a pointer so he could

 8     just show us a few things on this sketch.

 9        Q.   All right.  If you could take us through this sketch and just

10     explain what we're looking at here and particularly the markings you've

11     made.

12        A.   Sure.  This is the road from Konjevici.  I'll just surround this

13     here.  And the roadblock was here.  So we came from this direction and

14     were stopped by the Bosnian Serb Army at the roadblock, and that's where

15     they took the vehicles, and the vehicles were put here on a square nearby

16     the school.  And we were waiting here nearby the road --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to --

18             THE WITNESS:  Another colour?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that would have been perhaps preferable,

20     because we're now marking an already-marked sketch with the same colour,

21     so it's unclear now.  Let me just try to summarise.  You --

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we better erase the new markings and keep

24     the old ones.  The old ones are in the relevant 65 ter number, and

25     restart and give the witness a different colour.  Now, usually different

Page 13378

 1     colours are used for Prosecution and Defence, but I don't know how many

 2     colours we have, as a matter of fact.  Perhaps we could not use the blue

 3     and the red but --

 4             THE WITNESS:  The green.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The green, for example.  Yes.  Could -- could we

 6     first get back to the original one and not store the new markings.  So

 7     we're now back at the original one, and whenever you add something,

 8     you'll take care that it's clear on the record.  Perhaps you restart.  I

 9     think you said the road to the right was to Konjevic.  You marked that.

10     Could you do that again.

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And then continue.

13             THE WITNESS:  I will.  This is the road going to Konjevic, and we

14     came from Kladanj, from this side, and we were stopped here at the

15     roadblock.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The roadblock is in the middle between the two

17     green circles --

18             THE WITNESS:  It is.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- within the red circle --

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with a green marking.

22             THE WITNESS:  And when I was stopped there, my colleagues were

23     here waiting for what happened.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness marked four crosses where his colleagues

25     were.

Page 13379

 1             THE WITNESS:  So I had to step out of the car, and I took the car

 2     to the square as I already mentioned, and I'll underline the word

 3     "Square," and that's where the vehicles were parked, and I asked to get

 4     in touch with this -- the commander of -- of the troops who stopped me,

 5     and the commander used a school as his headquarters.  Here's the school,

 6     and this is the stairs towards the school.  And that's where I met this

 7     major.  And only the way between the road and the school there was a

 8     house where they had men and boys captured.  And here in the gym, beneath

 9     the gym there were dogs, Bosnian Serb army dogs.  And in your sketch,

10     it's Nova Kasaba but there -- the football field I'm referring to is on

11     the side there.  Not on scale, of course, but there is the football field

12     where I saw all the men.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness marks a kind of a small football

14     pitch --

15             THE WITNESS:  On the right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  To the upper right hand to indicate the direction

17     where the football pitch was found.

18             MS. HASAN:  So that we don't lose these markings, I'd offer this

19     marked version into evidence, 65 ter 28978.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the sketch which was marked already

21     in red in the Tolimir case with now further markings in green would

22     receive number.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P1630, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P1630 is admitted into evidence.

25             MS. HASAN:

Page 13380

 1        Q.   Witness, you've marked the road at the top of this sketch

 2     Simici-Konjevici and you've previously described in your prior testimony

 3     the route that you took to Kladanj and back, describing it as a route

 4     from Konjevic Polje to Milici onwards.  Are you -- is it the same road

 5     you're referring to?

 6        A.   It's the same road.

 7        Q.   How far do you recall the -- the Nova Kasaba football field being

 8     from the roadblock that you've -- you were stopped at?

 9        A.   A few hundred metres.

10             MS. HASAN:  Could we now see 65 ter 4950, please.  May I ask that

11     we just have that rotated 90 degrees to the right, please.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Witness, you probably recognise this aerial image as it was shown

13     to you in the Krstic case.  I'd just like you to take the pointer again

14     and -- and tell us if you can identify any buildings on this, on this

15     aerial image.

16        A.   Yes, I can.  This is the road that I referred to.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it would be better to avert confusion also

18     to take green for marking for this one, otherwise --

19             THE WITNESS:  No problem.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we'll never know what was marked when.

21             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we get back to the original one without a new

23     red marking.  Could you please mark in green again where you say the road

24     was.

25             THE WITNESS:  And we were stopped here, the roadblock.  And this

Page 13381

 1     is the school.  And this is the way from the roadblock towards the

 2     school.  This is the square.  And -- and the men and boys were in one of

 3     those buildings.  I don't -- I don't really -- I can't see which building

 4     it is, but in one of those buildings on this side of the road.  So --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness marks with some dots --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the left of the road between the roadblock and

 8     the school.

 9             THE WITNESS:  But I can't recall which house it was where the

10     boys and men were captured.  Okay.

11             MS. HASAN:

12        Q.   I'm just going to show you another image, but if we could just --

13             MS. HASAN:  If I could just offer this marked aerial image into

14     evidence, 65 ter 4950.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 69 -- document as marked by the witness

17     receives number P1631, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P1631 is admitted into evidence.

19             MS. HASAN:  If we could briefly look at Exhibit P01132, e-court

20     page 40.

21        Q.   Okay.  Witness, I don't know if this helps you better identify

22     where the small building or structure was that the men were kept in.  If

23     it doesn't, then it's just a better quality image.  If it doesn't, then

24     that's fine.

25        A.   I'm sorry, I can't recall which building it exactly was.  I'm

Page 13382

 1     sorry.

 2        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.  I'd like to ask you whether you made any

 3     observations about the communication lines that were available to the

 4     school that you were taken to, the temporary barracks there.

 5        A.   Well, the Bosnian Serb soldiers who were there didn't want us to

 6     use our communications in the vehicles because they were sure that that

 7     wasn't safe.  We did, but we didn't openly use them.  And they were using

 8     wires to communicate, so I saw a lot of wires where telephones could be

 9     attached on.  So it was possible for them to speak with others so there

10     can't be anyone else listening with them.

11        Q.   And where were these wires running from?  Where did you see them?

12        A.   I saw them in the nearance [phoen] of Nova Kasaba at -- at

13     various spots, and also here at the school.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  When you talk about nearance, I saw in the previous

15     transcript that you are referring to it being near to.

16             THE WITNESS:  Being near to, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

19             MS. HASAN:  Okay.  May we have 65 ter 25663A displayed, please.

20        Q.   And, Witness, I'll just ask you, this is -- we can have the

21     English and the B/C/S, but I'll ask you if you'd like a Dutch copy.  This

22     is your 15th July report.

23        A.   Sure.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 13383

 1        Q.   Okay.  We see here at the very top that this document is dated

 2     the 15th of July, and it provides that it's from 1st Lieutenant Egbers

 3     and to head of S2/34.  Now, before we go into any of the detail of the

 4     document itself, can you tell us what it is, whether you prepared this

 5     document, and a little bit about when and where you did this?

 6        A.   Yes.  I've made a report to the S2, that is the head of the

 7     section 2 who was in charge of intelligence, and head of section 3 is

 8     operations, and 4 is logistics.  So it's just a report for my DutchBat

 9     colleagues which I wrote on July 15, 1995.  After being at Nova Kasaba

10     for a night, and I wanted to report what this Major Malinic told me.  So

11     that -- that's the report.  Immediately after I came back at -- at the

12     compound, I wrote this.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, you said the document was numbered S2-34.

14     Now, it's numbered that way both in the English version and in the B/C/S

15     version, but I do not know why that's different from the original version

16     which says S2-3, without a 4.  Apparently there is some transcription

17     error.

18             THE WITNESS:  I think so.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And since you specifically referred to the

20     number.  Otherwise, I might not have noted it, but it's not vital --

21             THE WITNESS:  No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as long as the content which seems to be the same

23     so therefore please proceed.

24             MS. HASAN:

25        Q.   Okay.  So let's look at what you reported, specifically item 2.

Page 13384

 1     It reads a number of incidents occurred between Potocari and Nova Kasaba.

 2     Vehicles, helmets, and flak jackets were taken.  We can just stop there.

 3     Can you elaborate and explain where these vehicles, helmets, and flak

 4     jackets were taken as you report here?

 5        A.   Well, along the road there were Bosnian Serb troops facing the

 6     enclave on the road, and when they saw our vehicle approach, they would

 7     point their AK-47 at us, so we had to stop, and they took what they could

 8     get.  So our helmets, our bullet-proof vests.  That's what they wanted,

 9     and they just put their gun on our heads and we have to give it to them.

10     That's the reason why we didn't take any weapons the next day.

11        Q.   And when you refer to this taking place along the road, what road

12     are you talking about?

13        A.   It's the road from Potocari to Bratunac, from Bratunac all the

14     way to Kladanj near Nova Kasaba, there were the troops, but most of these

15     incidents were in the first stage of the -- of the travel between

16     Bratunac and the first big crossings.

17        Q.   Okay.  And --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan, this is also repetitious to the

19     statement.  The witness in his previous testimony said that he was

20     stopped several times and only at one of the later stops that they

21     were -- the flak jackets were taken, the helmets were taken.  It's all in

22     the testimony.

23             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I was just trying to link what's in

24     this report with what in fact he's testified to before.  He's never

25     testified in Krstic about this document.

Page 13385

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  That --

 2             MS. HASAN:  But I'll move along.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That may be true, but it's of course pretty obvious

 4     that it's about the same.  If that's your purpose, then you could have

 5     asked whether this reflects what we found already in his testimony about

 6     it.  Please proceed.

 7             MS. HASAN:

 8        Q.   Now, Witness, based on your experience, your own experience and

 9     what was reported to you, did this conduct appear to you to be a random

10     occurrence or was it a pattern of stripping and stopping and disabling of

11     the UNPROFOR peacekeepers?

12        A.   Yes, this was a pattern.  We -- all our vehicles were stopped,

13     and they -- this wasn't just an incident.  There were a lot of incidents

14     together.

15        Q.   Now, in this same item in brackets it says "see statement in

16     Serbo-Croat."  Now, you do in your prior testimony discuss a complaint

17     letter that you wrote up at the barracks or the school where you met

18     Major Zoran Malinic.  Is that the same statement that you're referring to

19     here?

20        A.   Yes, ma'am.

21        Q.   Now, in item 5 we go down, there you report on what you've also

22     testified about in relation to your contact with the local commander, and

23     you specifically reference him here, Major Zoran Malinic, born 1961.

24     How, first of all, did you know he was a major as you recorded here?

25        A.   That is what he told me, and I saw it on -- on his own door of

Page 13386

 1     his office.

 2        Q.   And what about his date of birth?

 3        A.   That was in the original Serbo-Croatian statement that we wrote

 4     in English.  I don't know whether it's correct, but that's what they told

 5     me then.

 6        Q.   Sorry, who told you?

 7        A.   I was there with an interpreter who could speak English, write

 8     English, but also speak Serbo-Croatian, and he finished the report

 9     together with me so I could give that to Colonel Beara.

10        Q.   So then the information contained for example in this item was

11     information you learned at the time when you were drafting your complaint

12     letter with the Serbo-Croat interpreter?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   Did you know Major Zoran Malinic before you met him on the 13th

15     of July?

16        A.   I've never seen him before.  I haven't seen him afterwards.

17        Q.   Let's move to item 8.  Now I'm particularly interested in the

18     last line there.  You're -- you're referring to again Zoran.  I take it

19     that's Major Zoran Malinic; is that correct?

20        A.   That's correct okay.

21        Q.   And it says here his superior commander Colonel Beara was going

22     to get involved in the matter.  Who provided that information to you

23     first that -- that Colonel Beara was Major Zoran Malinic's superior

24     commander?

25        A.   I don't know whether that he was his direct commander, but he

Page 13387

 1     told me that Colonel Beara was the colonel in charge of the surroundings

 2     in Nova Kasaba, not on the school.  So -- and of course he was as a major

 3     had to rely on this colonel, but I don't know whether there was a direct

 4     link between them, whether he was a member his force.  I don't know that,

 5     but there was -- there was a relationship between them, because he was

 6     there at Nova Kasaba in the school and this Colonel Beara was responsible

 7     for the surroundings including the school.  So I don't know whether this

 8     colonel was the military commander of Major Zoran Malinic.  I don't know

 9     that, but that's what he told me, that he wasn't able to guarantee our

10     safety outside his headquarters.

11        Q.   Okay.  And so are you drawing a distinction between formal chain

12     of command versus what you had understood from what you were being told?

13        A.   That's correct.  I don't know whether Colonel Beara was the

14     commander of this major, but he -- he had influence in the territory that

15     we were moving back to the -- to the enclave.

16        Q.   Did Major Zoran Malinic refer to Colonel Beara as his superior?

17        A.   He told me that he couldn't guarantee our safety, but this

18     Colonel Beara could, and he was trying to get in touch with him, and he

19     wanted to give our complaints to this Colonel Beara because this

20     Colonel Beara was in charge of Nova Kasaba.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, on the second day you were at the school, the

22     14th of July.  You encounter Colonel Beara.  He arrives at the school.

23     Now, in item 9 is -- is that what you're referring to there?

24        A.   Yes.  I've met him, but very shortly, and he -- he went to

25     Major Malinic immediately.

Page 13388

 1        Q.   Okay.  And just to clarify, when you have here recorded

 2     Colonel Beara, how did you -- how did you know, for example, how to spell

 3     his name?

 4        A.   Because it was all spelled in the form that we -- the complaint

 5     in Serbo-Croatian that we made.

 6        Q.   And you communicated with Colonel Beara that day.  How were you

 7     able to do that?

 8        A.   Through the interpreter.  He was with me.  He spoke English.  I

 9     saluted him.  I handed over the complaint.  He tried to get us as fast as

10     he could towards Colonel Malinic, and later on he left.

11        Q.   Sorry, you say he tried to get as fast as he could to

12     Colonel Malinic, meaning he tried to see Major Malinic, he was in a hurry

13     to see him?

14        A.   Yes, he didn't have the time to speak with me about the

15     complaints I had.  He didn't -- he didn't take the time.  He had the

16     time, but he wasn't interested.

17        Q.   Do you recall how long your conversation -- how long

18     Colonel Beara remained at the school there?

19        A.   I recall that it's longer than half an hour, but I don't exactly

20     know how long, but not -- not just going in and out, but he was there for

21     a chat.  He was there to -- to get in contact with Major Malinic.

22        Q.   Do you know when Colonel Beara left what direction he left in?

23        A.   Yes.  I saw him leaving in the direction of the Nova Kasaba

24     football field, towards Potocari, Srebrenica, that way.

25        Q.   Now, in item 10 in this document, you provide:

Page 13389

 1             "I wrote him what had happened to us which was written down.

 2     Colonel Beara has the original.  A copy is held by section 2-3."

 3             Again, is that the same Serbo-Croat statement that you put

 4     together with the Serb interpreter who were present there?

 5        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 6        Q.   Did you keep a copy of that yourself, the complaint letter?

 7        A.   No.  I gave the complaint letter to my superiors in the enclave,

 8     and that's it.

 9        Q.   All right.  If we now skip to item 11.  Here you -- it appears

10     you're relating an incident that occurred where you encountered a vehicle

11     of the International Red Cross, and you have testified about this before.

12             Now, I'd like to ask you about some digits there on the second

13     line in the English?

14        A.   Yes.  I can see that.

15        Q.   Okay.  And it says "Stopped," and then it has those digits.

16     Could you explain those digits to us, please.

17        A.   Sure, that's the exact date and the exact time.  So 95 refers to

18     the year, 07 to the month, and 13 to the date.  And it was at 1600 hours.

19     So at 1600 hours on the 13th of July, 1995, two men and two women in a

20     car stopped.  Do you see that?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   Okay.

23        Q.   Now, if we continue, it says when it became -- the last sentence,

24     "When it became clear that it was not safe they turned around and," if we

25     can turn to the next payment, please, "and headed for Pale.  I pointed

Page 13390

 1     out the hundreds of POWs on the football field in the area of JNA," and

 2     you have some digits there "but that did not help."

 3             What is the JNA number?

 4        A.   Well, that's a coordinate on the map, so when you have a map you

 5     can -- you can see exactly what -- what I mean.  It's how military

 6     officers communicate.

 7        Q.   So you're reporting to these persons about the prisoners you had

 8     seen at the football field, and this is taking place on the 13th of July

 9     at approximately 4.00 p.m.?

10        A.   It is.

11        Q.   Do you recall around when you would have seen the men at the

12     football field?

13        A.   Well, I saw them that morning when I drove with my vehicle

14     towards Kladanj.

15        Q.   Now, sir, were you informed or did you learn that General Mladic

16     was at the Nova Kasaba football field on the afternoon of the 13th of

17     July?

18        A.   I haven't seen him, and I wasn't informed that he was there.

19        Q.   If we can now look at item 12.  If we can turn the page in the

20     B/C/S version, please.  Okay.  Here you talk about a house 75 metres from

21     the school building.  Prisoners of war were being held.  Are those the

22     prisoners we briefly discussed?

23        A.   Yes.  They were inside the house near the school at Nova Kasaba.

24        Q.   Now, does anything in this paragraph assist you in determining

25     when you saw these prisoners?

Page 13391

 1        A.   Yes, I have the same numbers.  As you can see, it was 95.  It was

 2     14 July 1995, at 1500 hours that we visited them.

 3        Q.   Do you know whether those prisoners were there on the 13th of

 4     July when you were present at the school premises?

 5        A.   I saw them, but there were also men, Muslim men, walking in the

 6     nearance with hands on their heads guided towards several places, and I

 7     don't know whether these men came on the 14th of July, but they were

 8     there on the 13th of July, people inside the house as well.

 9        Q.   Now, when you were given permission to go inside this small

10     building, were you alone?

11        A.   No.  I was there with two other DutchBat soldiers, and there were

12     Bosnian Serb soldiers as well.

13        Q.   If we could skip now to item 14 on the following page.  In item

14     14 here, the last sentence you talk about two young POWs were taken in

15     the direction of the escape route of the BiH fighter.

16             Now, you have testified about two young boys who were taken from

17     a building and used as shields.  Are these the same young POWs that you

18     have reported about here?

19        A.   Yes, ma'am.

20        Q.   And approximately how old would you say these two boys were?

21        A.   Fifteen, sixteen years.

22        Q.   When you were ultimately taken back to Potocari, do you recall

23     whether it was still light or dark outside when you left the school

24     compound?

25        A.   It was almost talk.

Page 13392

 1        Q.   Does any information in this report assist us in determining when

 2     you would have arrived in Potocari on the -- when you were given

 3     permission to ultimately go back there?

 4        A.   Well, I wrote down that we reached the compound at 2115, as you

 5     can see on the last numbers.  So it was 14 July, 1995, 2115 that we were

 6     there, and I said in the sentence before that unfortunately, we had to

 7     leave behind two Mercedes vehicles with two numbers, so the S-10 is a

 8     vehicle and S-52 is not a vehicle, and we couldn't take them with us.

 9        Q.   And I think you testified about that.  And this is all in item 15

10     on this document.  Now, Witness, when you arrived --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a short correction for the transcript.  You

12     said S-10 was a vehicle and S-52 was not a vehicle, but I don't see an

13     S-52.  I only see C-52.

14             THE WITNESS:  You're correct, but it's -- it's another vehicle.

15     You're correct.

16             MS. HASAN:

17        Q.   Now, when you arrived in Potocari at 9.15 on the 14th of July,

18     were there any refugees left to escort?

19        A.   Only the sick and wounded who were in the hospitals.

20        Q.   There were no other refugees left?

21        A.   No refugees inside the compound, nor outside the compound.

22             MS. HASAN:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

24             It's time for the break.  Could the witness be escorted out of

25     the courtroom.  We'll take a break of 20 minutes.

Page 13393

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             MS. HASAN:  Mr. President, I haven't yet tendered the associated

 3     exhibits.  Would you like me to do that now or wait until after the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether there will be any debate about

 5     it or whether it's -- perhaps we take the next two minutes to -- if you

 6     just mention them.

 7             MS. HASAN:  So the first one would be 65 ter 4951.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Photograph of a school.  No objections,

 9     Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P1632, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1632 is admitted.  Next one.

12             MS. HASAN:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will go back to

13     65 ter 4950 and offer that in even though we've used the same exhibit

14     here today and the witness has marked it, but for the purpose of

15     understanding the Krstic testimony it might be helpful to have that as

16     well.  So that's 65 ter 4950.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the photograph with -- without markings, I

18     think.  Is that -- let me see.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 04950.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04950 receives number P1633, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is the unmarked version of what has been

24     admitted as 1631.  Next one.

25             MS. HASAN:  The next one would be 65 ter 5144.

Page 13394

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5144 receives number P1634, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P1634 is admitted absent any objections.

 5             Madam Registrar -- Ms. Hasan.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Finally, 65 ter 5145.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Map of Srebrenica.  I hear of no objections.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 5145 receives number P1635, Your

10     Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P1635 is admitted into evidence.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Hasan, what about the document, the report

13     written by the witness, 65 ter 25663A.

14             MS. HASAN:  You're absolutely right.  I've omitted that one and

15     I'd offer it into evidence, 65 ter 25663A.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25663A receives number P1636, Your

18     Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P1636 is admitted into evidence.

20             We take a break, and we resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Ms. Hasan, Madam Registrar draws

Page 13395

 1     my attention to the fact that 04951, photograph of the school at

 2     Nova Kasaba with a car on the road, was already admitted as P1572.  Would

 3     you please verify that.  That is an associated exhibit not marked by the

 4     witness.

 5             MS. HASAN:  Yes.  That appears to be the same photograph.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then P1632 is vacated.

 7             Apologies, Mr. Egbers, for dealing with other matters when you

 8     entered the courtroom.  Mr. Egbers, you'll now be cross examined by

 9     Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

10             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Let me begin with the kind of weaponry that was in the possession

15     of Muslims in Srebrenica.

16        A.   Excuse me.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS:  I don't have the English transcript.  I can only

19     read it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You can only read it.  You should be at channel 4,

21     but the usher will assist you.  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will repeat.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] So let us begin with whether Muslims in

Page 13396

 1     Srebrenica were armed, and if so, what kind of weaponry they had.  In

 2     your opinion, were Muslims in the Srebrenica enclave armed?

 3        A.   Yes.  When we entered the enclave, all the weapons were at the

 4     weapon collection point in Srebrenica, but after Observation Post Echo

 5     fell, I saw Muslims wearing weapons inside the enclave.

 6        Q.   In your view, these weapons that you later saw in the hands of

 7     Muslims, were they previously owned by the Muslims and did they fail to

 8     hand them in, or did they import them after you entered the enclave?  Did

 9     you make any conclusions about that?

10        A.   I can't tell you whether the weapons were there or were imported

11     during my stay.

12        Q.   Did you have any information on the number of Muslim fighting men

13     in the enclave of Srebrenica?

14        A.   No.  I saw not more than 10 or 20 armed men together at a few

15     times, so I can't tell you whether there were more or less than 100

16     people carrying guns in the enclave.

17        Q.   I should like to show you now a document marked here as D18.  As

18     you see, this is a document from the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina.  It is addressed by the commander of the General Staff,

20     and it's dated 30th of July, 1996.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 4 of this document in

22     both versions.

23        Q.   This is an overview, a summary, from which we can see that, for

24     instance, 374.982 rounds were sent into Srebrenica, calibre 7.62- and

25     7.9-millimetres; 436 grenades; 131 rifle grenades; 292 RPG-7s, also 59

Page 13397

 1     projectiles; 1 rocket launcher 107-millimetres, and 28 rockets for it;

 2     and so on and so forth.  We see how many automatic rifles were sent into

 3     Srebrenica, 150.  Six mortars.  Were these weapons stored in the DutchBat

 4     depot at the time, if you know?

 5        A.   I can't recall that.  I haven't been inside the weapon collection

 6     point.

 7        Q.   Did you know that the Muslim forces in the Srebrenica enclave

 8     handed in to DutchBat only handmade weapons and weapons that did not work

 9     any more?

10        A.   I didn't know that, but I don't know whether it's true, because I

11     wasn't in the weapon collection point.  I haven't been there, so I can't

12     tell you whether this is true or not.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You saw artillery weapons with your own eyes towards

14     the end of your stay in the enclave; correct?

15        A.   At Bravo 1, I saw a small piece of artillery.  I don't know

16     whether you mean this piece.

17        Q.   Yes, that's what I mean.  Was that piece of weaponry there from

18     before, or did it get into the enclave towards the end of your tenure?

19        A.   I've only seen it when I was in the blocking position Bravo 1,

20     and they told me that it was there for a longer time, but we never saw

21     it.

22        Q.   Would you agree with me that the weapons in the possession of the

23     Muslim forces in Srebrenica were hidden from you, from members of the

24     DutchBat?

25        A.   During the first -- the first month that we were in the enclave,

Page 13398

 1     we saw a few Muslim fighters wearing weapons and we tried to confiscated

 2     them.  So that's what we saw.  And I saw only this piece of M-48 at the

 3     blocking position number 1.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, one of the inherent problems of hiding

 5     something is that you don't see it.  So to ask whether something is

 6     hidden, unless you are seeking specific information about knowledge of

 7     the witness later that something was hidden from him.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We want to establish whether members of the DutchBat

 9     turned a blind eye or they didn't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then why not ask whether they turned a blind

11     eye.

12             MR. LUKIC:  That's my next question, but the gentleman said that

13     he didn't know, so that's then he didn't know, they didn't turn a blind

14     eye.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  According to him.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I now better understand what you wanted to ask from

18     the witness.  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  A more direct approach would have given a quicker

21     answer.

22             MR. LUKIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you see a tank in the possession of Muslim

Page 13399

 1     forces in Srebrenica?

 2        A.   No, I haven't seen that.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that you did not have the right to search houses

 4     either in Srebrenica or the surrounding villages?

 5        A.   Yes.  That was a discussion, whether we could follow an armed man

 6     inside a house.  It wasn't -- we were not able to -- to go into the house

 7     without the police force, but I didn't -- I never went in that situation,

 8     but DutchBat troops talked about that.

 9        Q.   Did you know whether any members of the DutchBat entered into a

10     Muslim house together with the police to search it?

11        A.   I'm sure -- I'm sure other units did so, but I didn't, and my

12     unit didn't.

13        Q.   Would you tell us which unit it was that entered and searched

14     Muslim houses in Srebrenica escorted by the police?

15        A.   I know that that discussion was with our special forces, and we

16     had two members of the British SAS serving in the enclave who also

17     participated in these actions.

18        Q.   Let's begin with these members of the SAS.  Concerning this

19     artillery weapon we mentioned, members of the Muslim armed forces told

20     you that they had only a few shells; is that correct?

21        A.   That is correct.  I saw only a few shells, because I was next to

22     the piece of M-48 at Bravo 1.

23        Q.   You didn't check whether they had ammunition for that artillery

24     weapon in some other place, did you?

25        A.   No, we did not, but I can only tell you that it didn't fire.

Page 13400

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me that at any rate, it was your obligation

 2     to put that weapon in the weapon collection point overseen by the

 3     DutchBat, or you don't agree?

 4        A.   I was told by the Dutch Battalion commander that he opened the

 5     weapon collection point when the Bosnian Serb Army attacked the enclave,

 6     and all the weapons were inside this weapon collection point.  So I had

 7     no need to confiscate a piece of artillery and bring it to a weapon

 8     collection point because the doors were open and everybody could take the

 9     weapons if they wanted to, but the Muslim fighters had no interest in

10     using these weapons.

11        Q.   After you left was this weapon collection point vacated or were

12     there weapons remaining inside?

13        A.   I left the town of Srebrenica when I ordered all my soldiers to

14     go out of the ACP, and I had a lot of injured people from the hospital

15     inside my ACP -- I'm sorry, armed personnel carrier, and I left for

16     Potocari never to go back to Srebrenica again.  So I don't know whether

17     there were weapons inside this weapon collection point.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just clarify when the weapon collection

19     point was opened?  Around what date did it become possible for people to

20     come in and take weapons out?

21        A.   I don't know that.  I only got the information that that was the

22     meaning of the commander of DutchBat, that he would open it.  I don't

23     know whether he actually opened the weapon collection point, that was the

24     information given to me at the time.  So I don't know, and it should be

25     in other files, think.

Page 13401

 1        Q.   Members of the DutchBat carried out the orders of their

 2     commander.  Of course, if he issued an order, then they must have carried

 3     it out, namely opening the weapon collection point.  Would you agree with

 4     me?

 5        A.   No.  He offered the Muslim fighters to open the weapon collection

 6     point if they wanted that and needed the arms inside the weapon

 7     collection point, and they didn't need those weapons.  They didn't.  They

 8     had the opportunity, but they -- that's my information.  They didn't want

 9     us to open the weapon collection point for their own reasons.

10        Q.   At that time, did you know the 28th Division of the Army of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina was inside Srebrenica?  It was based there?

12        A.   I haven't seen any division or division commander.  I only saw

13     Naser Oric.

14        Q.   Did you that members of this division, Muslim fighting men, were

15     launching offensive operations against Serbian villages around Srebrenica

16     and against Serbian positions?

17        A.   I don't know whether -- there were a few men, two of them, who

18     told me that they went outside the enclave at night and tried to -- to

19     come back with weapons, but I don't know whether these men were a member

20     of this division that you refer to in your -- in your question.  So I

21     spoke to people, and I asked them, "How do you -- how do you become the

22     owner of this rifle?"  And then he said it once belonged to a Serb.

23             Did I answer your question enough?

24        Q.   [In English] Yes, yes.

25        A.   Okay.

Page 13402

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Looking at the document before us, and we will

 2     see some more, would you agree in light of this document that Muslim

 3     fighters received weapons from their command?

 4        A.   I think this is an excellent question for -- for -- for the

 5     Muslims, Muslim fighters or the -- the people who reported this, but I

 6     can't give you any more information, because I've seen -- I've never seen

 7     this document before.  And you asked me if I can clarify this or --

 8     because I haven't seen it, and I haven't seen all those things inside the

 9     enclave.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any complaints from the Serbian side

11     that Muslim fighters were launching offensive actions against Serbian

12     positions and Serbian settlements?

13        A.   I've talked about this with Major Zoran Malinic after he met me

14     in the school at Nova Kasaba, after the enclave fell.  During my stay

15     from January until June in the enclave, I never had contact with the

16     Bosnian Serb Army.  So when there were any complaints, they were directly

17     to the commander of DutchBat.

18        Q.   Would you agree with me that you did not know either the

19     structure or the strength of the Muslim armed forces inside the

20     Srebrenica enclave?

21        A.   I can only tell you what I saw, and I saw a few fighters wearing

22     uniforms.  They were carrying weapons, RPGs, as I've mentioned, and

23     AK-47s.  They communicate by writing each other notes.  So I have seen

24     some of the people who tried to defend the enclave, but I haven't seen

25     any division inside the enclave.

Page 13403

 1        Q.   Could we now call up in e-court 65 ter 17856, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding of the document

 3     which we've seen before about the supplies, do we have a time-frame for

 4     it?  It's clear that it ends in -- at the moment of an accident in May.

 5     Do we know where it starts?  Is it about three months?  Is it about two

 6     months?  Is it -- do we have any position on that.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think that there is explanation like that in

 8     this document, so I cannot give you a time-frame for which this document

 9     is meant to describe.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which of course interpreting that's apparently

11     what you're aiming at to establish how many weapons there were.  If this

12     would have been 20 years, some of them might have been used already.

13     Now, I take it it's not 20 years, but at least for my understanding and

14     for the evaluation of the evidence, it would certainly assist if I would

15     know what -- what time period this activity covers.

16             MR. LUKIC:  That's why I tried to clarify with the witness

17     whether this armament entered during his stay or before --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  He doesn't know --

19             MR. LUKIC:  -- then he could -- I didn't know that he didn't

20     know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if someone says I saw a few soldiers walking

22     around with a few rifles and I saw one piece of artillery, then to expect

23     that he was fully aware of -- of this stuff being imported at that time,

24     is, of course, a, well, a very optimistic view of what a witness could

25     know.  Please proceed.

Page 13404

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] You see before you a part of the document

 3     reflecting Dutch debriefing on Srebrenica.  On page 1, paragraph 4, we

 4     see a part of your testimony.  You say:

 5             [In English] "The UN patrols were regularly fired at here by

 6     persons unknown.  The witness thought it likely the Muslims were

 7     responsible in an attempt to provoke the UN patrols to take action

 8     against the Bosnian Serb Army.  He thought it unlikely that it was the

 9     Bosnian Serb Army firing at them, as they were not -- as they were too

10     far away."

11             [Interpretation] If you were asked the same thing today, would

12     you confirm this?

13        A.   And what is the question that you have for me?

14        Q.   Is it correct that at that time Muslim forces, according to you,

15     opened fire at DutchBat patrols in order to provoke members of the

16     DutchBat to open fire against Serbian positions?

17        A.   Yes, but what we thought happened as well was that -- that there

18     was fire from inside the enclave towards the BSA posts so that the BSA

19     could react on us as well.  So we were provoked.  And I think it's

20     correct.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what you read to the witness is what he

22     thought to be likely.  You put it to him as if he would -- that would be

23     correct.  Do you mean that it's correct that he thought it to be likely

24     or that he has any knowledge which would be one step further than what we

25     find in the document?

Page 13405

 1             Is this an assessment, Witness, of likelihood, or is it -- do you

 2     have facts to your knowledge which could support your idea that this was

 3     the likely event?

 4             THE WITNESS:  We don't have the facts.  We only have the feeling

 5     that this could happen, that Bosnian Muslims were provoking the BSA.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you considered that even to be likely

 7     that --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is likely.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just got help from my

11     colleague Ivetic regarding the 18, the document we had previously on our

12     screens when you inquired about that period of time which that document

13     addressed, and my colleague did a more thorough investigation of the

14     document than I did, and it says that this quantity of ammunition was

15     imported into the enclave from the autumn 1994 until May 1995.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That certainly helps.  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] At that time you said Serb tanks opened fire.

19     Is it correct that you were not sure whether they were opening fire at

20     you or at the Muslim artillery weapons positioned in the immediate

21     vicinity of your APC, which was placed where it was placed in order to

22     block Serb forces from advancing?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So sorry, Mr. Lukic.  When you say "at that time,"

24     can you give us what time you are talking about?

25             MR. LUKIC:  When they took blocking position against Serbian

Page 13406

 1     forces that were entering the enclave.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I know where you're referring at, and when my

 3     commander asked me, "Are you absolutely sure that they are hitting UN

 4     vehicles and UN personnel?"  I couldn't say yes because there was this

 5     piece of artillery nearby.  So that's why my commander gave me the direct

 6     instruction to go back again.  And when we were back at the hill with our

 7     white vehicles wearing blue helmets and the tank shot again, then I was

 8     sure that they shot us.  But not at the first time, because the piece of

 9     artillery was in our nearance.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it true that your APCs was not directly hit, neither the first

12     nor the second time?

13        A.   It's true that there was no direct hit, but there were pieces of

14     artillery inside the vehicle.  So there was no direct hit, but it was in

15     the nearance of us.

16        Q.   Did Muslim fighters tell you on that occasion that they had

17     succeeded in destroying the Serbian tank?

18        A.   I met some Muslim fighters who went to the south from blocking

19     position 1 in order to -- to destroy a tank, but I don't know whether

20     they succeeded.

21        Q.   Did they tell you that they succeeded in doing so?

22        A.   I can't recall that sharp.  Perhaps you have it in one of my

23     testimonies.

24        Q.   [In English] Okay.  I will try to refresh your recollection, and

25     I would like to see 1D1041.

Page 13407

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we looked at the document earlier, the

 2     debriefing document.  Let me see.  That is -- could you repeat the

 3     number?  Is that admitted, or I may have missed it.  Do you tender that,

 4     or did you just read to it?  The reason why I'm asking is the following:

 5     That debriefing document most likely originally is in Dutch.  Even a

 6     portion which is attached, the last two pages, is the same document as we

 7     looked at earlier, the two pages about the S2-3 or 3-4 number.  I don't

 8     recollect immediately now the number, but there we had a Dutch original

 9     and the English translation and the B/C/S translation.  As for this one,

10     we do not have the Dutch original, we only have an English translation

11     and a B/C/S translation, but to some extent at least part of it is the

12     same document as was used by the Prosecution before.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot answer standing here now.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, no, but I just draw your attention to the

15     fact that you are using documents that some of them are in evidence which

16     are attached to other ones with or without translations, and to the

17     extent you want to use it, I would appreciate if we have all the versions

18     available.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will.  I think that for

20     some others in my questions, I do have all three versions, but for this

21     one I have only two versions.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And you don't tender it.  You just read it to the

25     witness and --

Page 13408

 1             MR. LUKIC:  That's right, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and we'll leave it to that.  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   We need 1D1041, which is your testimony of 20 October 2006, in

 5     the Popovic case.  We need page 29 in e-court.  You're talking about this

 6     very incident on the previous page.  In line 7, this is your answer, and

 7     I'll read it out in English:

 8             [In English] "A. Well, I can't be sure that they really

 9     succeeded.  They told me that they did.  That's what they told me, but I

10     had no vision of it, so you'd better ask the BSA whether it's true or

11     not."

12             [Interpretation] My question was if you remembered them telling

13     you that they had succeeded in destroying the tank.

14        A.   I can only quote what you have just read to us and that's it.  I

15     can't -- I can't say anything more than this.  But I think you asked me

16     this question, so you can have this in the file.

17        Q.   [In English] I do, but we have to have it in our trial as well.

18     Thank you.

19             [Interpretation] We'll move on to a different topic now.  Upon

20     your arrival in the enclave, you were taken prisoner by the Muslim

21     forces; is that right?

22        A.   I had no -- I could not move the way I wanted, so I was in my

23     vehicle for some time, but being a prisoner of the Muslims, I've -- I've

24     told you in the Krstic case about the Bandera Triangle.  I think that

25     you're referring to that.

Page 13409

 1        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 2        A.   I had a role in -- I then had a role in entering the

 3     Bandera Triangle.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it correct that they kept you prisoner for

 5     two days in this manner?

 6        A.   We entered the Bandera Triangle, and we were forced to stop.

 7     There were no guns openly pointed at us, but they told us to stop and to

 8     negotiate with the Dutch Battalion commander, whether to go inside this

 9     Bandera Triangle.  So I was there inside the Bandera Triangle and I

10     couldn't move, but you're calling me a prisoner.  And only -- the thing I

11     can say is that we were armed.  We had our arms, and we couldn't move the

12     way we wanted.

13        Q.   Is it correct that following this incident members of the

14     DutchBat were no longer able to gain access to the Bandera Triangle?

15        A.   As I can remember, that's correct.

16        Q.   I'd now like to call up in e-court P1421.  It's an order by

17     Major Franken, issued to Captain Groenewegen on 9 July 1995.  In

18     paragraph 1, the content of the order is given.  Were you able to read

19     the first paragraph?

20        A.   You only need me to read the assignment or --

21        Q.   [In English] Yes.

22        A.   I've read it.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] We were able to hear during the testimony of

24     your other colleagues what a "green" task or a "green" assignment meant.

25     Is it correct that at the time, the 9 July 1995, members of the DutchBat

Page 13410

 1     openly clashed with the Serb side?

 2        A.   You refer to July 9th?

 3        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 4        A.   And could you help me what happened that day?  Was there an

 5     observation post taken ever by the BSA or?  Because I wasn't there and

 6     you asked me whether I know this order.  I think -- is it dated 9th of

 7     July as well?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   So I haven't been in a fight with the BSA.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Very well.  Do you have any knowledge about your

11     commander having called upon NATO to bomb the Serb positions around the

12     Srebrenica enclave?

13        A.   Yes.  That was told by my commander that there should be a

14     gunship coming from NATO.  So that's why we had to be so visible with our

15     white vehicles.  But it never came.

16        Q.   I will take this in chronological order, and I will start from

17     the 8th of July, 1995.  Is it correct that the Muslims fell bombs that

18     landed between the vehicles which you were moving along in?  And I mean

19     on the 8th of July, 1995.

20        A.   I can recall that I was joining the battalion reserve for APCs,

21     and we were going south, and there were hand grenades thrown at our

22     positions.  At that time, I -- it could be the 8th of July.  I'm not sure

23     about that, but I'm sure that you will help me.

24        Q.   Let's look at 1D1078 then.  This will probably refresh your

25     memory of what you said in the Popovic case during your testimony on the

Page 13411

 1     19th of October, 2006.  Let's refresh your memory about the date.  We

 2     need page 64 in e-court, which corresponds to transcript page 2790 in the

 3     Popovic case.  Line -- lines 17 through 20, and I'll read it out.  Your

 4     answer -- we need the next page.  I apologise.  Page 64, which is

 5     transcript page 2791.  I'll read it out.

 6             [In English]  "The throwing of the grenades was at the first day,

 7     the day of the 8th, in the evening when I had to go south in the enclave.

 8     Then the grenades were thrown, and I got back to the headquarters of the

 9     Bravo Company, and then I've got to go to Bravo 1."

10             [Interpretation] Does this refresh your memory of it having

11     happened on the 8th of July?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   [In English] Thank you.  [Interpretation] Is it correct that at

14     the time, armed Muslims, rather than refer to them as members of the

15     28th Division of the BH Army, because that confuses you, wore the

16     uniforms of the Ukraine battalion of UNPROFOR as well as civilian

17     clothes?

18        A.   They -- I saw a few of them wearing Ukraine uniforms, but they

19     were not UNPROFOR Ukraine soldiers.  So they had Ukraine uniforms, as I

20     stated earlier in other cases.

21        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  I must have misunderstood it

22     then.

23        A.   Perhaps I can --

24        Q.   [In English] Sure.

25        A.   I can emphasise that they were not wearing blue helmets or using

Page 13412

 1     white cars or any other UN symbols.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] So there were only camouflage uniforms that were

 3     the same as those worn by the Ukrainian battalion at Zepa; right?

 4        A.   I asked them, one of them, "What kind of uniform are you wearing"

 5     and he said it was Ukraine.  So I haven't seen a Ukraine uniform before

 6     and after, so I can only tell you what he told me.  And I don't know

 7     whether he traded it in Zepa or how he really get it -- got it, sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question in that respect.  You said

 9     they were not wearing blue helmets, they were not wearing flak jackets,

10     not using white cars.  Were there any UN emblems on that --

11             THE WITNESS:  No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- uniform which was described to you as a Ukrainian

13     uniform?

14             THE WITNESS:  No, none at all.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  None at all.  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Is it correct that these same Muslims carried rocket launchers

18     and a machine-gun at the time you saw them partly wearing Ukrainian

19     uniforms and civilian clothes?

20        A.   That's correct.  Say saw them carrying an RPG 7.

21        Q.   [In English] Okay.  [Interpretation] They also had a machine-gun;

22     is that right?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   They also carried AKA 47 Kalashnikov rifles; right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 13413

 1        Q.   Is it also correct that these armed Muslims opened fire from

 2     Kalashnikovs on you on that same occasion?

 3        A.   On which -- are you still on the July 8th?

 4        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 5        A.   On July 8th I only reported and remembered the grenade being

 6     thrown.  So I don't know whether you -- you want another answer or --

 7        Q.   I'm sorry.  My mistake.  Sorry.  The next day.  So it must be the

 8     9th.

 9        A.   I was only -- when I left Bravo 1 to go to the marketplace to

10     help the people who were there, the Bosnians who were on Bravo 1 thought

11     that I was leaving them and they fired at our APC, and I think that's

12     where you're referring to, and that happened, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think we've heard this firing at

14     DutchBat leaving their positions several, several times.  I -- is there

15     any dispute about it?  Mr. McCloskey says there's not.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I was not clear whether this also happened on the

17     8th.  Now it's clarified that it happened only on the 9th, so probably

18     there is no dispute on this issue.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to focus on matters which are in dispute,

20     but preferably do that after the break.

21             Yes.  We take another break of 20 minutes.  Mr. Egbers, if you

22     would follow the usher.

23             We'll resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

Page 13414

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Colonel, I apologise about the confusion that I made concerning

 7     the 8th and 9th July 1995 and the events that happened on either of the

 8     dates.  So now regardless of the dates, can you tell us if the members of

 9     the BH Army killed a member of the DutchBat on the day when you were

10     fired at, or did it happen on some other day?

11        A.   Do you want to know exactly when Raviv van Renssen was killed?

12        Q.   [In English] Yes.

13        A.   It must be in the files, because I don't know the exact date that

14     he was killed, but he was killed by -- would you like me to confirm that

15     he was killed by Bosnian Muslim fighters?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   I can do that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about this?

19             MR. LUKIC:

20        Q.   But I only want to establish whether, since we cannot establish

21     it's 8th or 9th, is it the same day when it was shoot at you or some

22     other day, if you can remember.

23        A.   I can't remember exactly.  I'd have to look it up, sorry.

24        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's how you started your question, that -- I did

Page 13415

 1     not intervene there, but then the witness took you through some other

 2     matter which is not in dispute.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's continue.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it correct and did you know that

 7     Captain Hageman's vehicle also came under fire from the Muslim forces?

 8        A.   I can't answer that question.  I don't know that.

 9        Q.   Let's discuss the 9th [Realtime transcript read in error "19th"]

10     of July, 1995, now.  In the Krstic case there is mention of Pusmulici

11     close to Srebrenica.  This was also mentioned today.  Is it true that you

12     did not have a view of this village, it wasn't within your view, and you

13     were able to follow the clashes between the BH Army and the VRS by

14     listening to the exchange of fire?

15        A.   That's not true.

16        Q.   [In English] Okay.

17        A.   We had a binocular that was able to give us a good view on the

18     houses that were burned and people were going into the houses with dogs.

19     I saw it and I described it, but we saw that because we had good vision

20     at the village of Pusmulici in the south of the enclave.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in order to avoid any confusion, we're

22     talking about the 9th of July.  The transcript says the 19th.  That is

23     a --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It is 9th of July.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 13416

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Give me one second.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Were you able to see the fighting that went on

 3     in the village of Pusmulici between the Muslim and Serb forces?

 4        A.   I haven't seen any fighting between the Muslim and Serb forces in

 5     that village.  I only saw the people entering the houses and putting them

 6     on fire.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Isn't it true that in your testimony, Witness, that

 8     you also said something about taking goods from those houses?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Those were other houses from Srebrenica, and I

10     can't recall that in Pusmulici, because we saw, but I think you want to

11     emphasise that there was fighting in this village, and I can't --

12             MR. LUKIC:

13        Q.   Fair enough.

14        A.   I haven't seen that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  [Interpretation] Did you see that Muslim forces

16     opened fire from the town of Srebrenica itself?

17        A.   I remember that some Muslim fighters used the -- the gun on the

18     APC of others.  I've seen that.  Is that what you're referring to?

19        Q.   [In English] Among other things.  [Interpretation] On the 10th of

20     July, 1991 [as interpreted], were you able to see that Muslim forces

21     opened mortar fire while being among civilian population?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are transcribed as saying 1991.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I misspoke.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You meant 1995.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 13417

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are -- if you have to restart the question

 3     anyhow --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then I would like the witness to clarify what he

 6     means by the gun on the APC of others.  Is that APCs not of Muslim

 7     fighters, of DutchBat?  What are "others" in this respect?

 8             THE WITNESS:  It was an armed personnel carrier of the DutchBat

 9     that was in the marketplace.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  So are you referring to another -- something you

12     have on paper where I -- where I --

13             MR. LUKIC:

14        Q.   No.

15        A.   So you --

16        Q.   I'm just asking you if you saw the mortar opening fire from the

17     centre of Srebrenica?

18        A.   I haven't seen that.

19             MR. LUKIC:  If I can ask Ms. Stewart to help us with one video

20     that is evidence in this trial.  It's V000-9265, and we need it from 5

21     minutes to 6 minutes, 36 seconds.  Only minute and a half.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, for what purpose, to establish that a

23     mortar was fired?  We have seen that video many times.  What is the

24     purpose of showing it now with this witness?

25             MR. LUKIC:  I have a line of questions:  If he knows, and how

Page 13418

 1     would he comment that the hole surrounding with civilians being around,

 2     whether that happened before or afterwards.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course you know that the Chamber

 4     is hesitant to hear the same evidence again and again and again.  So if

 5     there's a good reason to elicit further evidence from this witness, of

 6     course you are -- please show it to him, and we'll find out at the end

 7     whether it --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- served any purpose, yes or no.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I think it will be -- that's why I cut it to only a

11     minute and a half.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Can we start, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before you put any questions, I put on

16     the record that what was shown, V000-9265, is a part of P1147.  Please

17     proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Colonel, did you know at that time, because you say you didn't

20     see it, but did you receive a report that Muslim forces had opened mortar

21     fire from the very centre of Srebrenica?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Were you aware they opened fire on the 11th of July at the time

24     when the column of civilians was moving from Srebrenica to Potocari?

25        A.   The only thing I saw was that grenades were in the nearance of

Page 13419

 1     the refugees who were going from Srebrenica to Potocari.  And when -- I

 2     was at the same spot at the day the refugees were there and I saw no

 3     mortar.

 4        Q.   At that time on the 11th, did you know where the bulk of the

 5     Muslim forces was?

 6        A.   The only thing I knew at that time was that there were Muslim

 7     fighters going in the direction of Observation Post Alpha.  So it's in

 8     the north-west.

 9        Q.   At that time did you have information as to whether there was

10     fighting around Srebrenica between Muslim and Serb forces?

11        A.   I have only seen Bosnian Serb tanks firing at the city.  I have

12     seen a few Muslim fighters trying to engage in the south of the enclave

13     the Bosnian Serb Army, but I haven't seen man-to-man fights.  I haven't

14     seen a real defence of the enclave.

15        Q.   During this shelling, as you say, next to the column, is it true

16     that none of the civilians were wounded or killed?

17        A.   I can't say that.  I can only say that I saw the grenades fell in

18     the left and the right of the column, and I haven't seen any killed

19     people by that shelling.  So I presumed it was there to keep them moving

20     towards Potocari, but that was my assumption at the time.

21        Q.   Do you know today who opened that fire, Serb or Muslim forces?

22        A.   It was coming from the south, so it must be the BSA from the

23     south of the -- of the town.  And what I've learned today I can -- I can

24     only tell you what I saw at the time.

25        Q.   This mortar, was it in the southern or the northern part of the

Page 13420

 1     town, if you remember?  And do you know in which direction it opened

 2     fire, or can you assess that from this video?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  What mortar?  The mortar we saw on the video?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I saw the mortar standing near the gas station in

 7     the centre of Srebrenica, and as I -- I saw it firing at the south of the

 8     enclave.  So I think at that time there were Bosnian Serb soldiers in the

 9     south of the enclave.  But when I was there with my armed personnel

10     carrier with all the refugees, I haven't seen any mortar.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, is there any dispute about the

12     position and the direction more or less of fire of that mortar?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Not that I'm aware of.  I just -- it just appears

14     to be what it is.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then move on.  We've seen it so many times,

16     Mr. Lukic, and if something new comes up, if there's something this

17     witness could tell us about -- well, first of all, he has not witnessed

18     it, so the only thing he can do is tell us what he sees on the video, and

19     we've heard that from other witnesses, and it's typically a matter which

20     should be not subject of any dispute.

21             MR. LUKIC:  May I continue?  I will change.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, will you please keep this in the back of your

23     mind if you continue.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it true, Colonel, that Muslims asked that you

Page 13421

 1     join them on their side with your APCs in their fight against the Serb

 2     forces?

 3        A.   Nobody asked me that.

 4        Q.   Did the Muslims train the hand-held rocket launcher at your

 5     vehicle and demanded that your APC join the other four APCs that were in

 6     the southern part of the town?

 7        A.   I was ordered by my commander to leave Bravo 1 and join the other

 8     APCs at the marketplace.  It was totally crowded that day.  People with

 9     or without arms were outside not knowing what to do.  And, yes, they

10     aimed their gun at me.  That's why I went out of the vehicle and tried to

11     speak with them in -- in English.  But I wasn't asked to join them.  They

12     pointed their RPG.

13        Q.   Under that threat did you reposition your APC?

14        A.   I did.  The next day I get the order to go back to Bravo 1 again,

15     and my commander told me that I had to prepare for an air-strike, as he

16     called it, and that's what I told the Muslim fighters who were at the

17     marketplace at the time, that I had to go back to Bravo 1 for that

18     reason.

19        Q.   Is it true that you knew there would be an attack against Serb

20     positions by the NATO Air Force, and for that reason you had to return to

21     your previous position from the Bravo observation post?

22        A.   That's true.  And I had a forward air controller who was in

23     contact with -- with the -- with the pilots.

24        Q.   What was the task of that DutchBat member, this forward air

25     controller?

Page 13422

 1        A.   He could point out the targets that were shooting at us.  So he

 2     tried to point out the tanks, T-54, T-55 that were shooting at UN

 3     positions.

 4        Q.   Did these forward air controllers establish communication with

 5     the pilot?

 6        A.   Yes, but only with the close-air support fighters that came on

 7     very late that day.

 8        Q.   Is it also true that two Dutch F16 aircraft on that occasion made

 9     two Serb tanks unusable, unserviceable?

10        A.   I'm not sure whether they -- the two tanks were unusable, but I

11     know that they didn't fire at us any more so I could go back to

12     Srebrenica town.  So, yes, they dropped bombs.

13        Q.   You mentioned in your previous testimony members of the SAS.  You

14     called them Jim and Dave; correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Do you know how they came to Srebrenica, who sent them?  They

17     were not members of the DutchBat, were they?

18        A.   No, but they were special forces, and they joined our special

19     forces, and they were in the enclave for months.  I don't know whether

20     they were there when we arrived in January 1995.  Could be.  I don't

21     know.

22        Q.   Did they have any role in guiding NATO aeroplanes?

23        A.   Not from my position.

24        Q.   Did other members of the SAS in May, June, July come to

25     Srebrenica with the role of guiding NATO aeroplanes?

Page 13423

 1        A.   I only saw these two, and they were with our battalion for a long

 2     period of time, and we brought our own forward air controllers.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you a few questions to clarify.  You

 4     were asked whether the SAS members had any role in guiding NATO

 5     aeroplanes.  You said, "Not from my position," which leaves open that you

 6     do not know about other positions or that you know that it was not from

 7     your position but they did from other positions.  Which of the two?

 8             THE WITNESS:  I -- I know that special forces, Dutch special

 9     forces, with radio contact with the fighters went in other positions.  So

10     I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there for a second because I

12     think we were talking about SAS persons.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I haven't seen the SAS, and I don't know

14     whether they had any contact.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever their role was.

16             THE WITNESS:  Whatever their role was, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's the first question.  We needed some

18     clarification.

19             Then you were asked about other members of the SAS, whether they

20     came with the role of guiding NATO aeroplanes.  You said, "I only saw

21     these two, and they were with our battalion for a long period of time and

22     we brought our own forward air controllers," which is still not an answer

23     to the question.  The question was whether the SAS people had come with

24     the role of guiding NATO aeroplanes.  If you know, please tell us.  If

25     you don't know --

Page 13424

 1             THE WITNESS:  I don't know that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   We shall move to the 11th of July.  Just let us finish first

 6     something concerning the 10th regarding this video.  After that, I'll ask

 7     you something else.

 8             Would you agree that opening mortar fire from this environment

 9     with many civilians in immediate vicinity was mainly geared at provoking

10     Serb fire for the purpose of causing civilian casualties?

11        A.   I would not agree with that.

12        Q.   Would you as a soldier allow your troops to open fire at enemy

13     positions while being surrounded by civilians?

14        A.   I wouldn't.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you again.  You earlier said you did not

17     agree with what Mr. Lukic put to you, that the opening mortar fire was

18     mainly geared at provoking Serb fire for the purpose of causing civilian

19     casualties.  Now, you did not agree with that.

20             THE WITNESS:  No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  However, would you agree if Mr. Lukic would have

22     asked you that it created considerable risks by doing that for the

23     civilian population surrounding you?

24             THE WITNESS:  That, of course, is true, but I don't think that

25     they fired the mortar in order to provoke the Bosnian Serb Army to shell

Page 13425

 1     them back.  I think they wanted to use the weapon in stopping the troops

 2     to enter the enclave.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  With a considerable risk that nevertheless return

 4     fire would be opened and would hit at, if aimed at the source of fire,

 5     then that there was a considerable risk that the civilian population

 6     would severely suffer from that.

 7             THE WITNESS:  That's certainly true.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, I took it that that is the issue

 9     you wanted to explore.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I want to thank you for posing

11     additional questions.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, members of the Dutch Battalion moved

13     civilians from Srebrenica to Potocari; correct?

14        A.   Most of the people walked from Srebrenica to Potocari when they

15     saw it was safe to go there, but we didn't move them with buses or other

16     vehicles.

17        Q.   Did you personally get orders to join the action of moving the

18     civilians?

19        A.   I get the orders to go back to Potocari to see if it was safe, so

20     we were on the front of all the people who followed us carrying all the

21     wounded from the hospital in Srebrenica.

22        Q.   Among the Dutch soldiers, you were at the tail end of the column;

23     correct?

24        A.   No.  I was more in the front of the column.  I wasn't on the end

25     of it.

Page 13426

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Because the Dutch report, although it was not under

 2     oath, says that you testified you were at the tail end of the column.

 3     But in any case, you did not see any Muslim civilian killed while this

 4     was happening?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Upon arriving at Potocari, you slept the following 12 hours

 7     because you were exhausted.  You hadn't slept for days before.  Is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  We transported all the sick and wounded from the hospital

10     to our hospital, and then I had a short rest.

11        Q.   I should now like to ask you a few things about the 12th of July,

12     1995.  That day you received orders to go to the convoy; is that correct?

13        A.   At that day, I escorted the first convoy to Kladanj.

14        Q.   At the front of the column there was Major Boering and one

15     captain; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   You controlled the tail end of the column, and you had a good

18     field of vision.  You could see the entire convoy; correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   You described seeing in Bratunac - I believe it's Bratunac.

21     You'll correct me if I'm wrong - seeing people shouting and throwing

22     things at the convoy; that is to say, Serbs standing outside the trucks

23     and the buses throwing objects at your convoy.

24        A.   What is the question?

25        Q.   Is it correct that you saw people around the convoy throwing

Page 13427

 1     things at buses and trucks?  Did you see the hostile sentiment around the

 2     convoy?

 3        A.   It was a hostile sentiment, but they're all -- there was also a

 4     party going on.  Everybody was celebrating.  So it was a very confusing

 5     situation, of course.

 6        Q.   At any rate, you passed through safely, and together with all the

 7     other members of the convoy you arrived safely at Kladanj; correct?

 8        A.   Well, I described that one of the buses broke down, that I was

 9     there with the buses -- with a single bus, and the other buses went to

10     Kladanj, and then we -- we went to a point where people get out of the

11     bus as described in --

12        Q.   [In English] Yes, you described it.

13        A.   So what is the question?

14        Q.   [Interpretation] About the safe passage of the convoy -- or,

15     rather, you informed the Papa Observation Post of the safe arrival of the

16     convoy at Kladanj; is that right?

17        A.   That's right.  But I had no -- I can't guarantee the safety of

18     all the buses where I wasn't driving along with these buses.  I was there

19     with one of the buses who broke down.  So when I went to the point where

20     all the people had to get out in Kladanj, they had to walk, and I counted

21     the buses, but I don't know what happened on the way, if somebody stopped

22     a bus or did something with the people inside the bus.  I don't know.

23     Perhaps you know.  Things like that.

24        Q.   So you did have a radio set with you in the vehicle, seeing that

25     you were able to inform the Papa OP about it?

Page 13428

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   Now it was the OP Alpha that you informed of the arrival of a

 3     different convoy, the one that you escorted on the following day; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   OP Alpha was in the west of the -- of the enclave, so I think

 6     it's -- I'm sure that I'm in contact with one of the two observation

 7     posts, and could be Alpha as well.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I again remind you that over the last

 9     couple of minutes about this first escort and the safe arrival, your

10     questions do not add anything at all to what is already in the testimony

11     given before which is now in evidence.  I mean, if evidence is presented

12     in the way it was done by the Prosecution, where there's no hint even at

13     not arriving safely at Kladanj, then there's no need to further --

14     further explore that.  I mean -- because the Chamber, reading that

15     evidence, will read nothing of the safety being jeopardised at any point

16     in time there.  And if I read it in the way you sought the witness to

17     repeat it.

18             Yes.  We come now to the next day.  Perhaps you have something

19     new about the radio equipment.  We knew already as well, because the

20     witness said we used that later when the car was taken so that they had

21     radio equipment with them is clear from the evidence also.  So let's now

22     move on to the next day, and let's try to get something what adds for the

23     Chamber.  Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Now I'd like to ask you about the availability

Page 13429

 1     of water for the people in Potocari.  Can we now call up 1D35 in e-court.

 2             Before the document comes up, let me tell you that it's a

 3     telegram sent by Mr. Akashi to Mr. Kofi Annan relating to Srebrenica.

 4     Did Mr. Akashi receive information through UNPROFOR channels from the

 5     DutchBat in Srebrenica?  Do you know?

 6        A.   I don't know that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  There is no document 1D35 in

 9     e-court.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see 65 ter number 15738.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] As you will see, it's a telegram sent to

12     Mr. Annan by Mr. Akashi from the UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb.  It was on the

13     12th July 1995.  We'll need the next page.

14             Item number 4, the first paragraph on the page.  The last portion

15     of it, four lines from the bottom it reads:

16             [In English] "The drinking-water source for Potocari has not been

17     cut off by the Serbs, and thus water is available for the people.

18     However, the overcrowded conditions combined with the lack of shelter

19     facilities are quickly creating sanitation problems which will result in

20     public health problems."

21             [Interpretation] Would you accept this report by Mr. Akashi that

22     the Serbs had not cut off any water supplies and that the Muslims in

23     Potocari had water available to them?

24        A.   I have no reason to doubt this, but I haven't -- I haven't heard

25     about any water supplies cutting off.

Page 13430

 1        Q.   You discussed the problem and you said that you provided

 2     civilians with water, we do accept that, but we'd like to ask you if you

 3     knew that there was another water source which the civilians in Potocari

 4     were able to use at that point in time?

 5        A.   I didn't provide anyone with water.  It wasn't in my previous

 6     testimonies.  So I gave -- we -- we had -- so were you referring to --

 7     because I didn't do anything with water.

 8        Q.   [In English] Okay.  Fair enough.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then -- because there are two elements

10     apparently in this report.  First that it was not -- the water source was

11     not cut by the Serbs.  You said, well, I have no reason to have any

12     doubt.  You have no knowledge that it would have been.

13             THE WITNESS:  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And the second part of this sentence is:

15             "And thus water is available to the people."

16             Were you aware of any shortage of water at that moment in

17     Potocari?

18             THE WITNESS:  I know that we gave all the water we had for

19     drinking water to the people, but -- and I think -- I mean, one day we

20     ran out of water that is usable for drinking immediately.  So that's what

21     I recall at that time.  So I don't know whether those people couldn't go

22     to the river to drink.  We had some toilets on the compound of Potocari,

23     but people didn't dare to use it.  They wanted their own shelter.  So I

24     don't know if it is clear, but it was it was 35 degrees Celsius at that

25     day, and people had to drink a lot of water, of course.  So I wasn't

Page 13431

 1     there giving water to the people, others did that, and I -- I see that

 2     there is a source of water but I don't know whether we could use them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you don't know about that source.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I haven't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you know whether the source was such that it

 6     would be able to sufficiently supply the water needed at that moment?

 7     Did you have any information about that?

 8             THE WITNESS:  I haven't.  I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   I'd like to ask you about the white house, as you called it, in

12     relation to 12 and 13 July, 1995.  Would you agree that you saw people on

13     the white house on the 13th of July, 1995, that's to say on the second

14     day of evacuation, and that you didn't see anyone in the white house on

15     the 12th of July, 1995, that's to say on the first day of evacuation?

16        A.   I have been there only at the second day of the evacuation, and

17     then I visited the white house in the morning, early in the morning, and

18     then I saw all these people going into convoy 3.  And the first date of

19     the evacuation when I was in the first convoy, I haven't seen anything at

20     the white house.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I again seek clarification.  If you say, "I

22     haven't seen anything at the white house," that is -- there is some

23     ambiguity there.  It could mean I haven't been in the white house and

24     therefore I don't see anything in the white house.  The other thing is

25     that I've been in the white house but I didn't see anything.  Which of

Page 13432

 1     the two?

 2             THE WITNESS:  It was the first one because I was with the first

 3     convoy to leave Potocari, so I -- all those people were there, and there

 4     came 14, 15 buses inside the enclave and Bosnian Serbs put all the

 5     people -- put the first buses, they filled them with people, so we had to

 6     go after the last bus of the first convoy.  On the second day, the

 7     Bosnian Serbs were using the house to -- to gather all the men and boys

 8     that were trying to leave with the buses.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the first day you just haven't been there

10     and --

11             THE WITNESS:  I haven't been there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- cannot tell us anything about what may have been

13     seen by those who were there.

14             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Upon your insistence you were able to enter the white house.  Is

19     it correct that you saw quite a few knives outside the house that had

20     been taken from the people who were inside the house?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct, but they were knives where you can cut an

22     apple with.  I think everybody has one.  So there were no big knives, but

23     I saw them, yes.

24        Q.   Would you be transporting people in possession of such knives?

25     Had you been the warring part against the Muslim side, or would you, too,

Page 13433

 1     have taken these knives from them?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Hypothetical question, Mr. Lukic.  If the witness

 3     wants to answer that's fine, but what he would have done under similar

 4     circumstances.  Of course, a question is would you consider this to be a

 5     risk.  That is a question which asks for the knowledge of the witness and

 6     it's not hypothetical.

 7             THE WITNESS:  No.  It is a very small risk.  The people I saw

 8     there were very ill, elderly people, 60 -- 50, 60 years old.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Is it a rule -- or, rather, do the rules of

11     the Dutch army dictate that men of the opposing warring party be searched

12     and frisked before they are transported anywhere and that the process any

13     type of weapon has to be seized?

14        A.   Well, the men that were inside the house didn't belong to an

15     opposing warring party, as you referred.  They were just refugees in

16     Srebrenica, Potocari, wanted to leave the enclave with their families in

17     buses.  So it's not -- you try to make an image that there are Muslim

18     fighters among the people in the white house.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Egbers, you are more or less entering in a

20     debatement with Mr. Lukic on his questions.

21             THE WITNESS:  That's true.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That is not what you're supposed to do.

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're challenging the picture he wishes to create.

25     We leave that to Mr. Lukic.

Page 13434

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is whether there were any rules of the

 3     Dutch army dictating the search of persons, may I say so, you want to

 4     transport.  We leave alone whether they're members of the -- well, let's

 5     say if they were of the warring party.  I would say the question if they

 6     were, there's no need to dispute that.  That's what Mr. Lukic put in this

 7     question, whether there are such rules do exist.

 8             THE WITNESS:  The rules we exist are the Geneva Conventions, of

 9     course, and when you are a part of an armed force that you get treated

10     well, but you get searched, sure.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Did you know that there was general mobilisation in force at the

14     time in Srebrenica which applied to all men aged between 16 and 60?

15        A.   I wasn't.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I ask the witness about the white house

17     again.

18             In one of your answers, I'm not sure if the transcript gives the

19     right answer, on page 66, line 19 I read:

20             "It is a very small risk.  The people I saw there were very ill,

21     elderly people, 60 -- 50, 60 years old."

22             THE WITNESS:  Old people, I meant.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not ill.

24             THE WITNESS:  Not ill people.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is what I --

Page 13435

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- thought that I would have elicited.

 3             Another question in that respect:  Can you describe the situation

 4     in the white house as you saw it?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, my intention was there because there were

 6     families screaming because their men were taken from them and transported

 7     to the white house, so I came there and I asked the Bosnian Serbs and my

 8     own soldiers who were there, I said, "What's indeed the house?"  And then

 9     they said, "Well, we don't know because we can't enter."  And so then I

10     tried being a first lieutenant to enter the house, and I pointed at my

11     rank and I said --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What did you see in the white house?

13             THE WITNESS:  When I went into the house, I saw men sitting in

14     several chambers waiting, that's it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Waiting in chairs, on the ground?

16             THE WITNESS:  On the ground.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many people did you see there?

18             THE WITNESS:  At that time it wasn't very crowded.  It was early

19     in the morning.  But when I was there around 11.00 when all the buses

20     were filled with the men from the white house, there were three buses

21     full of men.  So there were, let's say, 150, perhaps even more men.  But

22     at the time I visited the house, it wasn't crowded at all and they

23     were -- everybody was alive at that time.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did the house have a balcony?

25             THE WITNESS:  I can't really recall that right now.

Page 13436

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did the people in the white house have their

 2     personal belongings with them?

 3             THE WITNESS:  No.  I saw a lot of personal belongings in the

 4     garden of the -- in front of the house.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did any of the soldiers of the Bosnian Serb army

 6     tell you what the purpose of detaining the people in this house was?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  They told me that they wanted to search them,

 8     and they pointed at the knives they found, and they wanted to interrogate

 9     them, try to get them to Kladanj as well to exchange them for Bosnian

10     Serbs.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was the purpose of interrogating them, if

12     you know?

13             THE WITNESS:  I don't know at that time, but they -- they

14     considered them as opposing forces, and I considered them as all the men

15     who wanted to leave the enclave with their family.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you see anybody preparing lists of these

17     people?

18             THE WITNESS:  No, I haven't.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you see any IDs of these people somewhere?

20             THE WITNESS:  I haven't seen them, but my colleague, he saw them

21     in the same garden where I saw all the gear they took with them.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think it's time for a break.  We'll

24     take a break of 20 minutes.

25             You may follow the usher, and we'll continue at 1.30.

Page 13437

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5             Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, two hours you asked for to give an answer

 6     to my question whether there's still a need to cross-examine

 7     Kathryn Barr, where you do not oppose the admission of the report.  You

 8     said give me two hours.  I gave you two hours.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  I was hoping you forgot it.  I was just

10     informed by my colleague who was more familiar with Ms. Barr's report,

11     since he had it in another trial, and we don't ask for cross-examination

12     of Ms. Barr.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So the report can be admitted and without

14     cross-examination.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can it be 92 bis?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's expert report.

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's for Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're right.  You're right, Mr. Lukic, it's

20     for us to discuss under what Rule exactly we will admit or -- the report,

21     because there's no objection against admission, and no cross-examination.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, can you tell us what role members of

Page 13438

 1     the DutchBat had in registering the people at Potocari, if you know?

 2        A.   I only know that Major Franken, who was a deputy battalion

 3     commander at that time, made a list of I think 275 men who were on the

 4     compound under his -- or he registered them.  Is that the list you're

 5     referring to?

 6        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 7        A.   I know that it was made.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know the age of the people who were

 9     registered by Major Franken?

10        A.   No, I don't know that.

11        Q.   Do you know what sort of role the DutchBat members had, if any,

12     in putting people up in the white house?

13        A.   I don't know whether we had any role at all.  I wasn't there.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me that in agreement with the Geneva

15     Conventions, civilians should be separated from soldiers.

16        A.   I would agree with you.

17        Q.   We discussed the white house, and I'd like to go back to an

18     issue.  You were answering to questions by His Honour Judge Fluegge --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we change subject, you asked

20     whether the witness agrees that in agreement with the Geneva Conventions

21     civilians should be separated from soldiers.  This is a rather vague

22     question.  Do you mean in a combat situation, or do you mean when

23     combatants are taken prisoner they should not be mixed up with civilians,

24     or -- the context, it came immediately after the white house.  It's

25     totally unclear to me, but perhaps you can ask the witness how he

Page 13439

 1     understood the question, what you were referring to.  Perhaps you could

 2     first ask the witness how he understood the question.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I understood the question as a general question,

 4     whether the civilian people needed extra protection, and that is what is

 5     in the Geneva Conventions.  So when you are part of a force and you're

 6     recognisable as a force, then you should be treated different than the --

 7     the refugees and the normal population.  Is that what you mean?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it's now -- it's still not entirely

10     clear to me.  I mean, in a combat situation --

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you may have to evacuate civilians perhaps under

13     the convention -- conventions in order to avoid that they become affected

14     by the combat operations, whereas if we're talking about treated

15     differently from refugees and the normal position, that sounds more like

16     in a position where the combatants have laid down their weapons or aren't

17     perhaps hors de combat.  So it's still rather unclear to me, but I leave

18     it if that's -- if you feel your question is answered by that, Mr. Lukic,

19     then I will invite you to proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I will then return a bit to that question, Your

21     Honour, thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, is it correct that there were very few

23     uniformed and armed individuals in the Srebrenica enclave?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   On the 9th, 10th, and 11th of July in Srebrenica, were you able

Page 13440

 1     to see armed individuals in civilian clothes?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   There were no men armed with firearms in Potocari; right?

 4        A.   You refer at the families who gathered around the compound?

 5        Q.   [In English] Yes.

 6        A.   I haven't seen any armed men with the families gathering in the

 7     neighbourhood of the compound.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Would you therefore agree with me that the

 9     membership of the Muslim armed forces could not be established by the

10     fact that somebody was armed or wore a uniform or was in civilian

11     clothes?  There was no way for someone to see with the naked eye without

12     additional checks whether somebody was a member of the Muslim armed

13     forces or not?

14        A.   Well, I haven't seen any brigade, Muslim armed brigade, in

15     Potocari or Srebrenica.  I have seen refugees, I have seen the original

16     population over there, and I have seen some men carrying arms, but they

17     were communicating with small notes.  But I didn't have any idea that

18     there was an armed force trying to reject the Bosnian Serb Army.  I

19     haven't -- I know what you are referring to, but I haven't seen any army

20     of the -- of the Muslims inside the enclave.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Would you be surprised to see that there

22     are documents on the Muslim side which stated that there were between 4-

23     and 6.000 armed men in Srebrenica at the time?

24        A.   I would be very surprised.

25        Q.   I'll show you one such document in a minute or so.  I'd like to

Page 13441

 1     go back to the white house again.  You said that you didn't see anyone

 2     getting killed in it.  Would you agree with me that you didn't see anyone

 3     being beaten up either?

 4        A.   I haven't any recollection of any beaten-up person inside the

 5     house.

 6        Q.   You say that the convoy set off from the white house consisting

 7     of three buses.  You did tell us who escorted the convoy, but I can't

 8     remember at this time.  Was it your colleague Versteeg?

 9        A.   That is what -- that's correct.

10        Q.   Did he tell you or did you learn some other way about who it was

11     who stopped the convoy and changed its direction, and do you know

12     anything about the initial course that the convoy took?

13        A.   I only know that he was stopped, there was a gun pointed at his

14     head, and he had to turn around.  That was all I know.

15        Q.   Let us now move on to the 13th of July, 1995.  You said that you

16     escorted the convoy on that day as well, evacuating people from Potocari.

17     On the 13th of July, 1995, you saw men boarding buses; is that right?

18        A.   I haven't seen that.

19        Q.   What day was it then that this convoy set off that your colleague

20     Versteeg escorted?

21        A.   It was on the first day, but I don't really understand the

22     question, because we had two days of evacuation, more days of evacuation.

23     The first day I was on the first convoy.  The second day I was on convoy

24     number four, went to Kladanj, and stopped at Nova Kasaba.  So I wasn't

25     with the men.  I was with the women and children in convoy 4.  So I

Page 13442

 1     haven't seen any men coming into the buses.  I wasn't with -- with the

 2     three buses of men that went to Bratunac.

 3        Q.   [In English] I apologise then.

 4        A.   Okay.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] I will skip these questions then.  I'd like to

 6     discuss the 13th and the 14th of July, 1995, at Nova Kasaba.  One part of

 7     the day of the 13th of July you spent at Nova Kasaba; right?

 8        A.   In the afternoon, yes.

 9        Q.   I'd like to call up in e-court 1D1042.  What we have before us is

10     a form.  Let me first ask you this:  This form, which is in English, does

11     it contain your handwriting?

12        A.   Yes, sir.

13        Q.   There is something that was unclear to me about your stay there

14     and Major Malinic.  Do you recall filling out this form?

15        A.   Not by date.

16        Q.   But you do remember answering these questions and filling it out?

17        A.   Well, I don't have this chart, but it's a form handed over to me

18     in Zagreb.  It could be we went to Zagreb and had to fill out this form

19     there right -- right after we arrived.  Could be.  I don't know.  Is

20     it -- do you know whether it's dated?

21        Q.   [In English] I don't have date with me.  But if you can see --

22     maybe it's on the last page.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the last page of the document, please.

24             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So I think it was in Zagreb.

25             MR. LUKIC:

Page 13443

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   What is the question, please?

 3        Q.   Would you agree with me that you were not taken prisoner on that

 4     occasion by the Serb forces?  You were free to leave, but the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska could not guarantee safety to you.  That was question

 6     number 3 on this form, and you can refresh your memory as to what your

 7     answer was at the time.

 8        A.   Yes.  We were stopped with our cars near the school, guns were

 9     pointed at us.  We had to step out of the vehicles, and then we had to

10     stay there because nobody could guarantee our safety.  So we were able to

11     sleep in the building, to walk around the school, but of course we were

12     not in a position to go back to the enclave if we wanted.  That's what we

13     tried to do, but the -- the Mercedes that we used for that -- and we

14     drove a few hundred metres, and then they were stopped by people who

15     pointed their guns at our colleagues and took their cars.

16        Q.   After that, you go back to the school again where Major Malinic

17     was present; right?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   In this form, you describe having been his guest -- guests.

20     Would you agree with that description?

21        A.   Yes.  He tried to make it as comfortable for me as he could.  He

22     even played chess with me.  He wanted to play chess, and he invited me.

23     So it's a very strange situation in a wartime where you're held at a

24     school and this major wants to play chess and wants to have dinner and

25     wants to speak with me about -- about the situation in his country.

Page 13444

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, can you help me.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Sure.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where can we find a reference to a Major Malinic

 4     and the treatment as a guest, the treatment of the witness as a guest?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Since there is no numbers, I counted answers, and it

 6     should be answer number 4.  The first --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers].

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- is number 3 --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What page, Mr. --

10             MR. LUKIC:  It's English page 2.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, page 2.

12             MR. LUKIC:  And B/C/S page 2 as well.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we should move to that page.

14             MR. LUKIC:  The first one is question number 3 where it says:

15             "We were not captured.  We were free to go."

16             And the latest one is the next one:

17             "We were guests of the BSA, CO Major Malinic, Zoran."

18             And then there is the last paragraph on this page if you can see

19     it.  Yes.  The whole paragraph.  It says:

20             "All the BSA personnel tried to guarantee our safety.  Driving a

21     white car wasn't safe.  B and H and BSA could fire."

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we also can see more at the top of the page

23     like you referred to the sentence "We were not captured."  At the end of

24     that answer or the entry, there is the sentence:

25             "We tried to drive back with three UN Mercedes.  After 500

Page 13445

 1     metres, two of them were stolen."

 2             MR. LUKIC:  And the witness just confirmed it for us.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And therefore, I've read it into the record.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Thank you.  Then on page 3, fourth question as

 7     I counted it, there is only one "No," and the question was:

 8             "Were you physically attacked or maltreated by your captors at

 9     that time?"

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Is it correct that at that time while you were

11     at the headquarters of Major Malinic nobody mistreated you?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I would just offer this document to be admitted into

15     evidence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1042 receives number D307, Your

18     Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I will now move to a different topic.  In your evidence, you

22     describe the shooting by Serbian forces at the forest, and you said there

23     was no gunfire coming from the forest, and you spoke about that on page

24     2236 in your testimony of 5th April 2000 in the Krstic case.  You said

25     you hadn't heard any gunfire coming from the woods at Serb positions.

Page 13446

 1     However, at that time, did you know at all whether there were any Muslims

 2     in the place at which the Serb forces were shooting?  Were you able to

 3     know whether they were shooting at the forest, at an empty space, or

 4     enemy soldiers?

 5        A.   I don't know that, but I have only heard a gun -- a machine-gun

 6     firing in the woods.  I didn't hear a fire-fight, a fight between two

 7     people.  So one is shooting and the other one is reacting.  It was just

 8     single shooting in the forest.  So it was by machine-guns.  Normally when

 9     you have a fight you can hear one or two shots and then a reaction of the

10     other side.  So that's what I asked this Major Malinic the next morning,

11     about the shooting, and he said, "Well, I have very young soldiers, and

12     when they hear something, they'll start shooting at anything they hear."

13             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague, my learned friend is on her feet.

14             MS. HASAN:  Yes.  The section that was referred to from the

15     Krstic testimony was about firing into the woods between Sandici and

16     Nova Kasaba, when he was on the road, where he saw soldiers deployed

17     along that road, and I think the witness is speaking about an entirely

18     different set of firing that he heard when he was at the school.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  At least you invite Mr. Lukic to clarify whether it

20     is a different thing or whether it's the same.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I was asking about Sandici and Nova Kasaba.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But can you check the reference again?  I don't

23     find the portion on page --

24             MR. LUKIC:  2236?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  2236.  No, I don't find it there.  Not exactly

Page 13447

 1     what you were referring to.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It's line 15, 16, and 17, maybe, if I'm not mistaken.

 3     But we can have 1D1040 in the e-court if you want to check.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was a question at these lines.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Then I have the wrong page.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.  The question was put to the witness:

 7             "Now, at least on this part of the journey did you hear any

 8     firing coming out of the woods in the direction of those soldiers?

 9             "A. No, sir, I did not."

10             MR. LUKIC:  Then I was -- yes, that's the portion.  Yes.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hasan.

14             MS. HASAN:  I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me whether the

15     witness was in fact providing an answer to that question in relation to

16     Sandici, to Nova Kasaba.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you mean now or then?

18             MS. HASAN:  Sorry, not then in Krstic.  Today, just now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Just now.  Okay.

20             THE WITNESS:  Should I answer the question?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you can, please.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So I thought that -- that -- that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

24             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So I thought that Mr. Lukic was referring to

25     shooting during the night when I was at Nova Kasaba.

Page 13448

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And whereas the portion read to you was on

 2     your trip --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where you said:

 5             "I saw from Sandici until Nova Kasaba every 3 metres a few

 6     soldiers," and then you said something about shooting.

 7             THE WITNESS:  That was totally different.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's totally different from how you understand --

 9             THE WITNESS:  The question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  How you understood the question --

11             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you answered.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, thank you to my learned friend, and can

15     we now clarify.

16        Q.   Colonel, please, can you answer this question, whether -- have

17     you ever seen Serbian soldiers shooting in the direction of -- on that

18     trip into the -- the opposite side --

19        A.   Yes, sir.

20        Q.   -- of soldiers?

21        A.   I have seen them shooting at the forest at the direction of the

22     enclave when I drove by over the same road that the soldiers were

23     standing.  I couldn't see them shooting people.  Is that your question?

24        Q.   Yes.  Yes.

25        A.   Okay.

Page 13449

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In fact, I have just one more question for you

 2     regarding the 14th of July, 1995, and I will finish earlier than I had

 3     planned.

 4             You saw the Muslim forces open fire at Serb positions on the 14th

 5     of July, 1995, at Nova Kasaba; correct?

 6        A.   I only heard two shots at the school.  I haven't seen anybody

 7     firing them, but this Major Malinic told me that they were shooting at

 8     the school.

 9        Q.   Did any action ensue?  Did they try to pursue the assailants?  Do

10     you remember?

11        A.   Yes.  They pointed the anti-aircraft gun at the position, then

12     they had 20 or 25 men gathered, and they took two boys out of the house,

13     two Muslim boys, which they used as a human shield, and they drove them

14     in front of them trying to catch the forces or the -- or the people that

15     shot the two rounds at the school.  And after a time they came back, they

16     had no success, and the two boys were still alive and they were put back

17     in the house.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Colonel, thank you for answering my

19     questions.  That was all I had for you today.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the last question was again both question and

22     answer completely repetitious from the testimony, but, Mr. Lukic --

23     Ms. Hasan, do you have any questions or re-examination for the witness?

24             MS. HASAN:  Very briefly one question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 13450

 1             MS. HASAN:  Simply a point of clarification.

 2                           Re-examination by Ms. Hasan:

 3        Q.   At today's transcript at the end of transcript page 74, beginning

 4     of transcript page 75, there was a question about on the 13th of July did

 5     you see men boarding buses, and you answered:

 6             "I haven't seen that."

 7             And I think the lead-up to that might have been a bit confusing

 8     given your previous testimony today and in Krstic.

 9             So when you left on convoy 4 on the 13th of July, was that the

10     same day that convoy 3 left which carried the men who were on the three

11     buses that you saw come out of the white house onto the buses and leave

12     to Bratunac?

13        A.   That's correct.

14             MS. HASAN:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Egbers, this then concludes your testimony in

18     this court.  We were informed that you were postponed a couple of times.

19     We're nevertheless happy that you came today and that we were able to

20     conclude -- complete your testimony today.  Thank you for coming.  Thank

21     you for having answered all the questions that you were put to you by the

22     parties and the Bench.  You're excused, and you may follow the usher.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There's not sufficient time to continue with the

Page 13451

 1     previous witness.  I would say, if I may have been a bit grumpy now and

 2     then on repetitious questions, then I think it's only fair that I also

 3     put on the record that it's appreciated that the parties did their utmost

 4     best and finished the completed testimony of this witness today.  I think

 5     in all fairness that should be said as well.

 6             We -- six minutes before the usual time we adjourn, and we

 7     adjourn and will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 27th of June, in this

 8     same Courtroom I at 9.30 in the morning.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.09 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day

11                           of June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.