1 Friday, 28 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
8 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 No preliminaries. Therefore, we briefly go into closed session
11 in order to allow the witness to enter the courtroom, and after that
12 we'll return into open session.
13 [Closed session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 Witness RM279, before we resume, I'd like to remind you that
22 you're still -- there apparently is a problem with the audio.
23 Can you hear me now -- or can you hear the interpreter, rather?
24 Can you hear me?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no interpretation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me now? You can hear the interpreter
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM279, before we resume, I'd like to remind
5 you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at
6 the beginning of your testimony; that is, that you'll speak the truth,
7 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: RM279 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic will now continue his cross-examination.
11 Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
14 Q. Sir, one question that came to me before I get back to the
15 questions we left off at last session. I want to ask you about something
16 that some of the documents show, especially the documents of intercepts
17 from the police entity. They say that the "Pale radio relay" was being
18 monitored. Do you have knowledge of what communications node of the
19 former JNA this would be in reference to?
20 A. What I do know is that the task assigned to the personnel of the
21 State Security Service was to monitor the so-called political
22 communication. The political leadership of Republika Srpska was in Pale.
23 Pale is located similarly to Zvornik. It was probably the end point
24 radio relay station, which most likely went via Jahorina and to
25 Veliki Zep. That way, they could monitor the frequency arriving from
1 Veliki Zep going on to Pale and the other way around, and they were able
2 to listen in.
3 Q. Thank you for that. And now I'd like to take off where we left
4 off yesterday at document 1D1067 in e-court.
5 MR. IVETIC: But if we could please not broadcast that to the
7 Q. And this is in relation to the testimony that we just started
8 about you having received money from the Office of the Prosecution of the
10 MR. IVETIC: And if we can look at --
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you just give the ID number again, please.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, 1D01067.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 MR. IVETIC: And if we could turn to page 2 in both versions of
15 this document. And now we have it up on the screen in both languages.
16 Q. As you can see, sir, this is a note to file by an attorney of the
17 Prosecution team dated 21 May, 2010, but reporting of something that
18 occurred in May of 2007. And I will not be mentioning your name, but it
19 says here that you were retained by the OTP in May 2007 as a
20 consultant --
21 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, there is a problem with the
22 translation. I'm told the B/C/S translation is not coming through to
23 either co-counsel or to the accused.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand from Mr. Stojanovic's gestures that
25 it has been fixed.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, I will start from the beginning. This document talks about
5 something that occurred in May of 2007, and it says you were retained by
6 the OTP in May of 2007 as a consultant to evaluate the expert report
7 entitled: "Analysis of Interception of Radio Relay Communication of the
8 Army of Republika Srpska," dated 23 April, 2007, and the evidence of
9 Popovic Defence expert, Djuro Rodic, concerning the interception
10 capabilities of the ABiH 2nd Corps Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit. It says
11 you rendered consultative services to the OTP from 16 May to 25 May 2007
12 for which you received remuneration in the amount of 2.000 US dollars,
13 travel expenses, and the applicable daily subsistence allowance.
14 Sir, is the information contained in this letter truthful and
15 accurate that you were a consultant for the Prosecution?
16 A. This is it.
17 Q. Now, sir, is the information contained in this letter truthful
18 and accurate that you were paid 2.000 US dollars, plus travel expenses,
19 plus daily subsistence expenses?
20 A. I really don't know precisely. I said in my testimony that I
21 received around 1 and a half thousand German marks. They paid for my
22 hotel and expenses from here. I can't recall the figure exactly, but it
23 certainly wasn't more than that.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Now if you look at the end of the letter on the
25 bottom of the page in both languages, it says you:
1 "Conceded that often there were imbalances in the audibility of
2 collocutors in intercepted conversations and that sometimes only one
3 speaker could be heard. He explained that this phenomena in terms of
4 duplex 2 frequencies and simplex single frequency radio transmissions but
5 noted that the VRS's poor equipment and maintenance practices, as well as
6 the failure of its personnel to follow basic protective protocols
7 contributed to the ability of the anti-electronic warfare unit to
8 intercept duplex communications on a single frequency."
9 Sir, is this letter truthful and accurate as to this recitation
10 of what it was that you told the Office of the Prosecutor back in
11 May of 2007?
12 A. This is absolutely correct. The question was how can one
13 sometimes hear both interlocutors, whereas on other occasions one could
14 only hear one on the same frequency. We were taught in school that were
15 two basic reasons for it. One of the reasons is feedback, because the
16 microphone and the headset have basically the same function. If the
17 operator speaks loudly enough, it is picked up by his own head phone and
18 that can be heard in communication. There can also be differences in
19 workstation at radio relay nodes which can be switched and that is why
20 some communication can be picked up in that fashion although not always.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document as the
23 next exhibit number under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1067 receives number D135, under seal,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. And if you could tell us, sir, in relation to both the average
5 monthly salary in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 2007 in terms of your pension,
6 how did the 2.000 US dollars plus expenses compare, or how would it
7 compare to both of those?
8 A. Well, if you're really interested it's around two of my monthly
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. IVETIC: For the next two questions I'd like to go into
12 private session to protect the identity of this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 13543-13545 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the record show that the last 65 ter number is
6 actually 316 not 136.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours it's D316.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
9 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
10 And if we can now call up number 04712 but not broadcast the
12 Q. Sir, what we have here is a document that indicates a joint
13 commission was composed by both ICTY and BH personnel to make a selection
14 of documents to be used as evidence. And looking at this document, can
15 it -- it identifies that you participated in this. Can you confirm that,
16 in fact, you participated in this event when 148 documents were selected
17 for evidence in April of 1998 by a joint commission that included OTP
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ivetic, where can I find any reference to a
20 joint commission in this document?
21 MR. IVETIC: Line 2 in the English, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am familiar with this record. I
3 MR. IVETIC: I don't know if we need to have any --
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Sir, could you tell us what criteria was used to select documents
9 for use as evidence?
10 A. As far as I recall, there was no criteria. Whatever notebooks we
11 had at the time were piled together, a list was created, and they were
12 handed over.
13 Q. I want to ask you if you considered your work in selecting
14 documents was intended to assist the Prosecution to obtain convictions of
15 former VRS officers?
16 A. I don't see it that I way. I did my job, I did what I was
17 ordered to do. There was no particular selection of documents. Only in
18 the first case did we make a selection singling out the documents
19 pertaining to General Krstic. The rest of it went in bulk.
20 Q. You said, sir, that you did what you were ordered to. Did you
21 have orders from your superiors to the effect that you should select
22 documents to assist the Prosecution to obtain convictions of former VRS
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you clearly explain, because otherwise the
25 witness who is not a lawyer, Mr. Ivetic, in normal language for someone
1 not being a lawyer what you are seeking from the witness?
2 MR. IVETIC: Let me try and make it as simple as possible.
3 Q. Were you ordered to give everything to the Prosecution or were
4 you ordered to give only a selection of items to the Prosecution?
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different question. That's a different
6 question. Let me see. I gave you an opportunity to rephrase, but if
7 you --
8 What Mr. Ivetic would like to know is whether by providing this
9 material, whether selection or all of it, whether it was your purpose to
10 have persons to be convicted - that is, to be punished for what they had
11 done wrong - whether that was your intention when providing this? Is
12 this what was on your mind?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right,
14 Mr. President. I had no agenda, no intention. Either myself or anyone
15 else. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It seems that already
16 during the hand-over some people believed that people would be convicted,
17 but I did it in military terms. I handed over the document without
18 paying any regard to the fact whether someone would be convicted or not.
19 We had no contact with them. We simply went about our work which at some
20 points became relevant in terms of the documents relating to some events
21 in Bosnia and Srebrenica.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. I'd like to tender this document under
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04712 receives number D317,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 If we can have another document, 1D1068, and also not broadcast
6 this one to the public.
7 Q. Sir, what we have on the screen is a Tribunal witness statement
8 prepared by the Office of the Prosecutor and it's for an individual whose
9 name I will not mention, but I ask you to look at that name and tell us
10 if it is someone you are familiar with and in fact someone who was a
11 member of the same unit?
12 A. Well, looking at this information, I can say that the name is
13 familiar. I believe that he was here, too. Year of birth. This is an
14 engineer of safety and protection at work as far as I remember, and he
15 was a commander of a squad in facilities in the north.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, if we look at the persons listed as present
17 for the interview, we see the names of various Prosecution personnel, and
18 then we see your name as well. Can you confirm that you were present at
19 this interview and at the time that this statement was taken from this
21 A. If it says here, I believe it's true, but I cannot really
22 remember at this moment because I spoke to many people. I can't even see
23 the date, really. Oh, yes, there it is. Yeah, probably. I know all
24 these people from the OTP, so probably I was present.
25 Q. Can I ask you, sir, how many other interviews of potential
1 witnesses with the Office of the Prosecutor did you participate in?
2 A. I really don't recall. Whatever -- however hard I try, I cannot
4 Q. Would it be more than one?
5 A. Probably.
6 Q. Do you recall why it was that you were present and what your role
7 was at the interview -- in this Prosecution interview and in this
8 Prosecution witness statement?
9 A. I think that my role here was only that of an electronic warfare
10 officer, to be present as a host.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document under
14 JUDGE ORIE: The statement or are you just -- I don't know
15 whether it's just a cover page, because that's apparently the presence of
16 the witness is what seems to --
17 MR. IVETIC: Be the problem, right. What I would then do is then
18 I would ask that it be MFI'd so that we can mange sure. I think that the
19 version I have is just the cover page but I notice in e-court there is
20 more pages, so I just need to -- I just need the cover sheet just to
21 memorialise the name of the other person so I can make sure that that is
22 corrected in e-court.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then what we have in front of us is a five-page
25 MR. IVETIC: Document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You are interested in the --
2 MR. IVETIC: Cover sheet.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- cover sheet. It will be MFI'd. And you can
4 upload the cover sheet only.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1 068 receives number D318,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification under seal. I add
10 to this that D316 we discussed earlier, which was also MFI'd, is also
11 MFI'd under seal.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Now one last document I would look at with you, sir. It's
15 65 ter number 04713.
16 MR. IVETIC: And again, we should not broadcast the same to be
18 Q. And this is -- oh, I should wait for the English. Sir, this is
19 another correspondence evidencing the hand-over materials from the BiH
20 side to the -- to the Prosecutor, dated April of 1998 in relation to the
21 intercepts and notebooks, and it says here that it is being given to an
22 ICTY representative, but you'll see here that there is no title or ICTY
23 title for the person taking these materials but rather he appears to be
24 an active member of the United States army at the time of the hand-over.
25 Can you recall or explain for us why it is that the materials would have
1 been handed over to a member of the United States army?
2 A. I cannot explain why this was handed to a member of the US army,
3 but he was a member of that group so we didn't ask any questions. We
4 just asked for their IDs so that we could draft this record. I remember
5 the gentleman. He went to the facilities, he listened to the
6 communications, but whether he as a US army member worked for ICTY, I
7 don't know. We were ordered to put the tapes into boxes, close them,
8 glue them closed, and marked them. He received them and took them away.
9 Q. Do you know, sir, if this gentleman for the US army who was given
10 this material was, in fact, an intelligence officer of the US army or do
11 you know what branch he was from?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee.
13 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I think the witness just testified that
14 he did not know whether -- whether he was an active member of the US
15 army. He believed that it was a member of the ICTY.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now --
17 MS. LEE: So I think this [overlapping speakers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, Ms. Lee, Mr. Ivetic is entitled to put some
19 follow-up questions to further, perhaps a bit more profoundly, deal with
20 the matter.
21 So could the witness please answer, if he is able to do so, the
22 question that was put.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on the occasion of
24 the hand-over of these tapes, I was simply ordered to pack them, make a
25 list of them, and hand them over. The standard procedure was when I
1 typed this record with the gentleman to ask him to produce his ID. He
2 gave me that card and I simply copied information from it. I didn't
3 think about him being a member of the army or not. He was in civilian
4 clothes, so I never really gave it a thought.
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second, again.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would tender this
11 document under seal as the next exhibit number.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04713 receives number D319,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence under seal.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 Q. Witness, I thank you for answering my questions. I have nothing
18 further for you today.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We briefly move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 13554-13555 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Ms. Lee will now have some further questions for you in
17 Ms. Lee, you may proceed.
18 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
19 May I please have 65 ter number -- excuse me, Exhibit 1622.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's under seal and should not be broadcast.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Lee:
22 Q. Witness, during cross-examination you were asked a question
23 relating to this specific intercept and you were asked to provide an
24 explanation as to why the identity of General Krstic was revealed but
25 that in parenthesis it was written "could not be heard." Do you recall
1 that part of your testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. [Microphone not activated] At that time your answer was:
4 "I don't know. You would have to ask the gentleman who wrote
5 this conversation."
6 And if I were to tell you that in an interview with the Office of
7 the Prosecutor, the intercept operator who wrote this conversation was
8 asked about this specific intercept.
9 MS. LEE: And now may I please have 65 ter number 29028, not to
10 be broadcast to public because it is under seal.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 13558-13560 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MS. LEE: May I please have 1D01070, and if I could have that not
15 to be broadcast to the public.
16 Q. Yes. Do you recognise the name of this individual?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there no B/C/S translation?
19 MS. LEE: I don't -- this is a -- I don't believe a B/C/S
20 translation has been uploaded. This is a Defence document that I'm just
21 referring to.
22 Q. And if this individual said that Mr. Krstic usually gave his
23 name, and not only do we know his voice, we knew many of the voices of
24 the officers as well. And I'd like to show you --
25 MR. IVETIC: Is there a question or are we going to have the
1 counsel giving commentary and giving evidence?
2 MS. LEE: Yes. I'm getting to my question, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
4 MS. LEE:
5 Q. And I would like to know were there several other individuals
6 that have -- that were -- I'll strike that. Now -- sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, would it assist you if we take a break?
8 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours. If we could take a break at this
10 JUDGE ORIE: It was already time for the break, so that is the
11 main reason.
12 We briefly turn into closed session so as to allow the witness to
13 leave the courtroom. We'll resume in 20 minutes from now, again in
14 closed session, then to return in open session immediately after that.
15 [Closed session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 Ms. Lee, you may proceed.
5 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Witness, in your 92 ter statement, and this is P1614, you
10 MS. LEE: May we go into private session, please?
11 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
12 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MS. LEE:
22 Q. Witness, did the VRS known that their communications were being
23 heard by the ABiH?
24 A. I can only say so based on the conversations we heard. They
25 didn't know that we were listening in for only a year, but they knew it
1 for three years, and often operators and different people mentioned that
2 radio traffic procedures should be followed as well as protection
3 procedures. However, it all depended on the person's position.
4 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 20996AA, and it should
5 be under seal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, I'm informed that an English translation is
8 I see there is communication without words between
9 Madam Registrar and the team manager of the OTP. The OTP indicating that
10 it's uploaded, Madam Registrar trying to establish whether it has been
12 MS. LEE: In the -- in the meantime, we could call up another
13 document if that assists. No?
14 JUDGE ORIE: It should be there in a second, I take it. It's all
15 about communications.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. LEE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's there.
19 MS. LEE:
20 Q. And in this document it says:
21 "X: Krstic has just come up here. He went back there, he'll
22 call me later. He'll look into it and will assign someone to co-ordinate
23 it ... yes, yes, I know ... hey listen, I know. Just take it easy, this
24 is an open line."
25 Witness, do you -- do you recognise this document to be one that
1 would have been produced by your unit?
2 A. It is probably from my unit. Without the cover page of the
3 notebook I can't say anything precisely, but it is probably from our
5 Q. And in this intercept it mentions an open line. Was this an
6 indication for you to know whether or not the VRS knew that you are
7 intercepting their -- that the ARBiH was intercepting their conversation?
8 A. I'll repeat yet again. The Army of Republika Srpska knew
9 100 per cent that we were monitoring such conversations. But might makes
10 right. They were the stronger one and they behaved the way they did. In
11 terms of the lie of the land, and hopefully I'm saying this for the last
12 time: In military terms, we had ideal monitoring facilities. In any
13 situation, in any terrain, and with any party, probably one will never
14 have another opportunity like that. These facilities were part of the
15 communications system of the JNA before the war.
16 Q. And -- thank you. You've testified today that the VRS personnel
17 did not always follow protocol. Do you recall saying that?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. LEE: May I please have P -- [Microphone not activated]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. LEE: This phone was ringing.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Someone was calling, no one picks up the phone.
23 That's okay. Let's proceed.
24 MS. LEE: Actually, before we move on, can I -- may I please
25 tender 20996AA into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20996AA receives number P1639,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Under seal?
5 MS. LEE: Under seal.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see whether we need it under seal.
7 Could you give it some more thought, Ms. Lee, soon, whether it
8 really needs to be under seal as being just one page, one isolated page
9 of the document?
10 MS. LEE: It has -- it contains a signature.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It contains a signature.
12 MS. LEE: Of an intercept operator, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Under seal.
14 Mr. Ivetic, could I inquire with you. Is there any dispute about
15 awareness of the VRS that possibly they were monitored? So I'm not
16 asking anything about whether it could be done but whether there was
17 concern about being monitored, an awareness of -- well, that this could
19 MR. IVETIC: No dispute, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No dispute.
21 Ms. Lee, please proceed.
22 MS. LEE: May I please have P1305 [Realtime transcript read in
23 error "P105"] onto the screen.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's supposed to be 1305, P1305. P1305.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it should not be broadcast.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Lee, we have it on our screens now.
2 MS. LEE: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Witness, is this a document -- is this a document that would have
4 come from your unit?
5 A. The left-hand side document in Bosnian does originate from the
6 northern facility. On the right-hand side, the translation is not
7 identical to the original.
8 MS. LEE: Your Honours, this is -- I will only be referring to
9 the conversation contained in -- at conversation 11:49, and that's the
10 only conversation I will be relying on, and so --
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you then seek the corresponding B/C/S version,
12 what page is that in e-court?
13 MS. LEE: It's e-court page 2, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MS. LEE: Page 2, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it is on the second page that we find the
17 corresponding B/C/S. There we are. I think we have established this
18 earlier. You'll find it at the bottom of the page in B/C/S.
19 MS. LEE: Yes, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MS. LEE:
22 Q. Witness, this is an intercept from 11:49, and it says
23 participants panorama 3, switchboard, and Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic. Do
24 you see that in front of you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then when you read towards the beginning, it starts:
2 "C: Who wants to know?
3 "P: Panorama 3.
4 "C: Panorama B?
5 "P: Panorama 3.
6 "C: Ah-ha, you need Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, right?
7 "P: Go fuck yourself, you stupid idiot.
8 "C: Just a moment, you're connected."
9 And further down, if we could go to the next page -- oh, on
10 B/C/S, yes, that's on it, it says:
11 "Slow down --"
12 MS. LEE: Can we go down in the English version as well. Can we
13 go to the next page on the English version? Thank you.
14 Q. It says:
15 "P: Slow down. Slow down. Don't talk too much. You should
16 know better. And tell that idiot there next time not to mention any
17 names, ranks, or last names.
18 "S: Who is this?
19 "P: We know each other well, you and I.
20 "S: And whom should I ask ...
21 "P: Panorama, man, don't do this, you're worse than the man
22 before you!"
23 Now based on this -- on -- on what you see on this intercept,
24 does this confirm that the VRS personnel did not follow the basic
25 protocols when transmitting communications?
1 MR. IVETIC: I would object to the [indiscernible] conclusion
2 that it goes beyond the document that is before us.
3 MS. LEE: Your Honours, I'm asking whether -- or reading by -- by
4 reading this intercept it confirms what he had testified to today in
6 JUDGE ORIE: So what you want to know from the witness is whether
7 he recognises this as an example of what he said --
8 MS. LEE: Said before.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- before that procedures were not --
10 MS. LEE: Followed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- followed. Do you recognise this as an example of
12 not following procedures?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Next question please, Ms. Lee.
15 MS. LEE: May I please have 65 ter number 29041 on e-court,
16 please. And my I've the usher's assistance to provide this notebook to
17 the witness. I would like to have the first page, the picture page on
18 the screen, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, is it -- could I ask whether
20 it's the Defence's position that the Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
21 originate from 2012 or that it may have been produced earlier? 2001, I
23 MR. IVETIC: It's our position, sir, that we don't know when this
24 book was produced, and there is a -- as I believe I was very precise in
25 my wording that there was a stamp on the beginning of the cover page from
1 the manufacturer that had this notation. And we don't know what it means
2 at this point. But we do not believe that the book originally from 1995,
3 that it was from sometime subsequent from 1995, and we're still
4 undertaking investigations to determine that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we have the original somewhere so that we
6 can see whether it's the stamp or --
7 MS. LEE: The original has been provided to the witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have for one second a look at it?
9 Do the parties agree, you talked about a stamp, Mr. Ivetic,
10 that's the reason why the Chamber wanted to look at it, but it is a part
11 of the print that resembles a stamp but is just part of the print of the
13 MR. IVETIC: From the manufacturer which is what I said when I
14 asked the witness this question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, just a minute ago you talked about a stamp.
16 And, Ms. Lee, please proceed.
17 MS. LEE:
18 Q. Witness, have you examined the document before you, the book
19 before -- notebook before you, and does it correspond to the image that
20 you have in front of the screen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In the bottom left corner there is a place where you have
23 presumably an image which corresponds to a finger-print of this chipmunk
24 that's appearing on the image. I just want to -- for you to see whether
25 or not the picture form is part of a cover rather than any stamp that may
1 have placed by anyone else?
2 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be no dispute about that, that it's
3 not a stamp placed by anyone else than the entity which produced the
5 MR. IVETIC: Absolutely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Lee.
7 MS. LEE: Yes, and I just wanted to clarify for the record that
8 there is no manufacturing stamp but it's just part of a cover that's part
9 of the image, the graphic, that's appearing as -- on the notebook.
10 That's all.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's agreed upon by the parties so we can
13 MS. LEE: Then may I please have this exhibit entered into
15 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 29041 receives number P1640,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 MS. LEE: Public exhibit, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Public exhibit.
23 MS. LEE: And I have no further questions for this witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, before I give you an opportunity to
25 further examine the witness, I would have one question for you, Witness,
1 which is the following: You testified about your presence during
2 interviews, and you said your role was being a host.
3 Now what came to my mind, and please either confirm or deny that
4 that would have been part of your role, is that if you're interviewing
5 someone on a very technical matter such as the communications that having
6 someone, a consultant, available who could assist in phrasing questions
7 and could assist in understanding answers given on these technical
8 nature, that seemed to me a role you may well have played. Was that part
9 of your role as well apart from being a host?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President. You put
11 it well. One of the reasons was that. The other reason was that the
12 documents pertained to the period when I was in command. By sheer
13 circumstance, the person who was my predecessor went to another
14 commanding duty and I replaced him. So it was by sheer coincidence that
15 I happened to be there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Ivetic, any further questions?
18 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, just briefly. And I'll start with
19 the ones in open session.
20 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
21 Q. Sir, you were asked at length by the Prosecutor about this
23 MR. IVETIC: If we can call up on the screen P1622, and that
24 broadcast -- should not be broadcast.
25 Q. And you were asked about the possibility that the intercept
1 operator may have heard the switchboard and then jotted it down from that
2 even though the person identified as General Krstic could not be heard.
3 We just looked at an intercept where there was a switchboard involved and
4 the words of the switchboard were identified in the conversation and
5 there was in the introduction or header the switchboard was also
7 Can you confirm for me, sir, that in the handwritten portion of
8 this original B/C/S from this operator from one of the stations, there is
9 no mention of a switchboard identifying one of the participants as
11 A. Exactly. There is no mention but probably they heard it during
12 the conversation and only once they heard it they started making notes of
13 the conversation.
14 MR. IVETIC: And if we can call up P169 under seal and so it
15 should not be broadcast.
16 Q. If you recall your direct examination from the other day, this
17 particular conversation was actually the subject of an intercept by the
18 other unit, the other station of your unit, and the document that we're
19 about to look at is the handwritten notebook from that intercept
21 MR. IVETIC: P1619, I apologise, under seal. It should not be
22 broadcast. If it helps, it's 65 ter number 21135B, as in Beta.
23 Q. And if we look in the B/C/S, it's at the top of the page, and in
24 the English it's the only part of the document that's been translated,
25 can we confirm that in this second intercept operator intercepting this
1 very same communication there again is no reference to any switchboard
2 operator having identified the participants?
3 A. What is written in the notebook is really like that, but this was
4 done in the north and you see that this is about a general. And these
5 things are noted in context. You listen and you hear what -- who calls
6 and who replies. I, of course, cannot give any definitive explanation.
7 You'd have to ask the one who wrote this.
8 Q. Agreed. And I think I don't need to go through this with you.
9 MR. IVETIC: But, Your Honours, also we have P1621 which was the
10 police intercept related to this conversation that also has no reference
11 to a switchboard, although it was taken from the 2nd Army Dispatch. So I
12 don't believe that they had a separate intercept, it's just relaying what
13 this -- what their information was from these intercepts.
14 I'd like to now go into private session to deal with one other
15 matter that arose during cross-examination -- during redirect
17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 13576-13577 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I have only a general question about all the
19 notebooks we have seen, the original and the copies in e-court. Where
20 did you get these notebooks from? They are -- they don't look like a
21 typical military -- yeah, booklet, but it was obviously produced for
22 another purpose. Where did you get that from and when? How did you
23 obtain these booklets?
24 A. I really don't know the source, but in early 1995 the market in
25 Bosnia was more open so there were more things to buy than before. We
1 had no official printed documents in our units because those were
2 expensive and resource intensive. We got some notebooks from logistics.
3 We had always applied for them. And I remember that we exchanged some
4 notebooks for flour in the headquarters building. But up until summer
5 1995, we used anything to write on. We used flimsy paper and held it
6 together with paper clips, for example.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I have an observation but not necessarily a
10 There seems to be dispute between the parties whether the
11 notebooks were manufactured before July 1995. I do understand that the
12 Defence takes the position that they have been produced after 1995, and
13 that it is the position of the Prosecution that they were produced before
14 July 1995. Is that -- does that reflect your positions.
15 MR. IVETIC: With respect to some of the notebooks, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It's our position that
18 1 Gennaio 2001 is the date that Popotia was assigned her identity card
19 from this child's notebook, and so, yes, that's the dispute.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the dispute. I noticed that on the left
21 part of the cover of this notebook there is a bar code. Now, very often
22 bar codes provide a lot of information about producer, manufacturer, and
23 sometimes even more; that is, what batch it was, et cetera. Has it been
24 explored what the bar code tell us?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We -- we did this in the
1 Popovic case and came to a dead-end. Couldn't resolve the issue and --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then just for my information that it's hereby
3 on the record that that doesn't lead us to any resolution whether the one
4 way or the other way.
5 Then there are no further questions for the witness. This then
6 concludes, Witness, your testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for
7 coming to The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were
8 put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return
9 home again.
10 We turn into closed session in order to allow the witness to
11 leave the courtroom. We'll then take immediately the break so as to
12 prepare for the voice distortion of the next witness. And then we'll
13 resume in closed session, again. And then once the witness is in, we
14 turn into open or private session.
15 One second, please. One second.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 13581-13591 redacted. Closed session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Witness RM316, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
10 you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. May I
11 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: RM316
15 [Witness answered through interpretation]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM316, you will give your testimony with
19 protective measures; that is, face distortion, no one will see your face
20 outside this courtroom; voice distortion, no one will hear your own voice
21 outside this courtroom; and pseudonym, we do not use your own name.
22 We'll call you "Witness" or "Witness RM316." You'll first be examined by
23 Mr. Jeremy. You'll find him to your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for
24 the Prosecution.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Examination by Mr. Jeremy:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness kindly
6 be asked to approach the microphone. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come a bit closer to the microphone,
9 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
10 MR. JEREMY:
11 Q. Witness, you've been informed about the protective measures in
12 place for you. In addition to these, if you feel an answer might reveal
13 your identity or relate to a private matter, then feel free to ask the
14 Judges to move into private session.
15 A. Very well.
16 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see on our screens 65 ter 29002,
17 which should not be broadcast. It is a pseudonym sheet.
18 Q. Sir, without reading aloud what is on the screen, can you see
19 your name?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at the bottom of the screen [microphone not activated]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. JEREMY: Sorry.
24 Q. And at the bottom of the screen, is that your correct date of
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender into evidence 65 ter 29002,
3 under seal as the next Prosecution exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 29002 receives number P1653,
6 Your Honours, under seal.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P1653 is admitted into evidence under seal.
8 MR. JEREMY:
9 Q. Now, sir, did you testify in the case of Prosecutor versus
10 Tolimir on the 27th of May, 2010?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you listen to a recording of your evidence in that case
13 in preparation for your testimony here today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did this recording accurately reflect what you said in the
16 Tolimir case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of that
20 A. Yes, I affirm that everything I said is accurate.
21 Q. And lastly, if you are asked the same questions today during
22 those proceedings -- during these proceedings, sorry, as you were asked
23 in that case, would you give the same answers in substance?
24 A. Yes. I believe I would.
25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders, under seal,
1 65 ter 29001 as the next Prosecution exhibit.
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I just want to draw your attention to
3 the fact, and we also discussed it recently since we were not actually
4 aware of it, the witnesses were asked to confirm audio, and then
5 transcript was introduced. And we saw on many occasions that there were
6 discrepancies. So I think that should be cured somehow. If -- this
7 witness cannot confirm that the transcript is accurate. He confirmed
8 that audio is transcript -- accurate.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if there are any concerns about discrepancies
10 between audio and transcript in relation to this witness --
11 MR. LUKIC: We don't have audio.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have audio but --
13 MR. LUKIC: I think maybe we do [overlapping speakers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: But I think you have certainly access to audio.
15 MR. LUKIC: I think Ms. Stewart is nodding that we do. But I
16 didn't check audio, I was reading only transcript. And I told you only a
17 couple of days ago we actually were concerned about this issue. We were
18 not thinking about it before.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's a valid issue you're raising, Mr. Lukic.
20 Mr. Jeremy.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I understand that the B/C/S audio for
22 all of the witnesses we are calling has been disclosed to the Defence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber, of course, is aware that
24 usually the transcript is fairly accurate, and if there's -- if it's
25 noticed at any moment that mistakes are made, and mistakes, of course,
1 are human, then they will be corrected immediately. Now, if there is
2 anything which remained unnoticed, a discrepancy between audio and
3 transcript, then, of course, the Chamber is quite willing to consider
4 that. And most important, if you would inform the Prosecution about it,
5 I take it that they'll draw the attention of the witness to that. But
6 we, of course, we can't start comparing the original. That's a bit of a
7 problem because it is, first of all, the audio in B/C/S; second, it is
8 then the transcript on the basis of the translation by the interpreters,
9 the interpretation. If there is any concern at any moment or if there is
10 any vital matter where you would like to raise this matter, of course,
11 the Chamber is open to hear it. If it is your position that we should
12 not, for that reason, further admit into evidence the transcripts, then
13 it needs a bit more than just a loose observation.
14 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, first it's not our job to check their
15 65 ter statements -- 92 ter statements. It's their job. We will not be
16 asking them to check if our -- if we introduce some transcripts. We
17 don't have manpower to check audio and transcripts. We cannot do that.
18 They are much more powerful. So if they want to introduce transcripts,
19 they should make certain that transcript is accurate transcription of
20 audio. So it cannot be continued this way, that they check audio and
21 then introduce transcripts. And it's not our job to check it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the general rule in this Tribunal is that the
23 parties and the Bench rely on the accuracy of interpretation and
24 transcription up till the moment where there are reasons to believe that
25 mistakes are made, identified by whomever. I think that is done all the
1 time. The Chamber relies on the interpretation and the transcript when
2 we are preparing for the judgements, for example, when we are evaluating
3 the evidence, and to require that a party should do that job again is not
4 something that comes to my mind at this moment. But, again, I said if
5 you want to do more than just to raise the issue in this case and without
6 any specific complaints but more in general, then you would have to make
7 more thorough submissions on the matter.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And we will consider them.
10 MR. LUKIC: Just again if I may, this is 92 ter statement. The
11 witness is, according to the Rules, required to confirm the accuracy.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: In this case --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
15 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- I do understand that that is your position, but
17 if you want to change in a rather dramatic way the practice which was
18 applied in many cases, and was applied in this case consistently, which
19 you are fully entitled to do, then we cannot do it in five minutes with
20 oral arguments, then you should make thorough written submissions on the
21 matter, the Defence will have opportunity to respond to that, and then
22 the Chamber will consider it. Of course, the Prosecution will further
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not to discourage you to do it, but if you do it
1 then you should do it thoroughly.
2 Does that mean at this moment that you object against admission?
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we do object against the admission.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Jeremy, any response to that?
5 MR. JEREMY: The particular transcript that we're relying on is
6 from the Tolimir case. I understand that the transcript was checked
7 carefully as that case went through, and any corrections that needed to
8 be made were made at the time. It's the -- it's been the practice with
9 all 92 ter witnesses who testified in B/C/S for whom we only have a
10 English transcript that they listen to the audio of the B/C/S and confirm
11 the accuracy of that audio, and on the basis of that we rely on the CLSS
12 translations and we rely on the accuracy of the transcripts from each of
13 the cases that we rely and to tender via 92 ter.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: If I may -- one thing before you start, Your Honours,
16 please. The previous witness --
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may add something, Mr. Lukic, although -- let me
18 see, yes. Yes. You are. You --
19 MR. LUKIC: The previous witness corrected his transcript also
20 from Tolimir case on multiple occasions, today and days before.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any other objections, Mr. Lukic, apart from the one
23 you raised?
24 MR. LUKIC: We'll see at the end if there are some discrepancies
25 or not. I cannot tell you now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. LUKIC: And that's the only objection what we can raise at
3 this moment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it turns out that there are discrepancies,
5 of course the Chamber will further consider those discrepancies. The
6 Chamber denies the objection and will follow the practice it has followed
7 in this case. But, as I said before, we certainly do not discourage you
8 to raise the issue in thorough submissions, we'll then receive the
9 responses, and whether that will then change anything, we'll see that.
10 At this moment, Madam Registrar, the transcript would receive
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 29001 receives number P1654,
13 Your Honours, under seal.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P1654 is admitted into evidence under seal.
15 Mr. Jeremy.
16 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, as regards associated exhibits, I
17 anticipate using some of these during the course of the direct
18 examination. Although there are only four that I'm not -- already
19 admitted into evidence, but I would propose to deal with them at the end,
20 at the conclusion of the witness's evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would prepare a list later whether the
22 descriptions are -- that Madam Registrar can already prepare the
23 assignment of numbers to it and we'll deal with it at the end of the
24 testimony of the witness.
25 MR. JEREMY: Of course.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
2 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I would now like to read a short
3 summary of this witness's evidence, the purpose of which I have explained
4 to the witness.
5 During 1994 and 1995, the witness was an employee of the
6 State Security Service or SDB and was involved in the monitoring,
7 recording, and transcribing of intercepted radio signal communications
8 involving the VRS and the Bosnian Serb leadership.
9 He describes the location at which this was conducted, the staff
10 involved, the equipment used, and all stages of the process and
11 procedures involved in the intercepting and transcribing of those
12 intercepted communications. This witness was personally involved in all
13 aspects of this process.
14 In particular, the witness describes how the team would intercept
15 VRS communications. If an intercept operator considered an intercepted
16 conversation important, this would be recorded using a reel-to-reel
17 recorder known as a UHER, U-H-E-R, once recorded, while the first man
18 continued to monitor the radio waves, typically, a second would
19 transcribe the recorded conversation onto paper. It would then be typed
20 from the paper into a computer, encrypted, manually logged in an index,
21 and sent to the headquarters. The witness also details the meticulous
22 steps taken to ensure that intercepted communications were accurately
23 recorded and speakers within those conversations accurately identified.
24 That concludes the summary, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
1 If you have any further questions, you may put them to the
3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Witness, in your Tolimir testimony, Exhibit P1654, you provide a
5 brief overview of the interception process in which your unit was
6 engaged. And I'd like to fill in some of the details of that. You say
7 that you had a four-man team who worked in shifts of two. That's from
8 transcript page 2054, e-court page 9. You also state your team operated
9 from a northern location, as did the 2nd Corps of the ABiH.
10 My question is: Did your team work in the same room as the ABiH
11 or was it a different room?
12 A. We were in the same facility, the facility being one of the
13 former armed forces where all of the premises were used by the 2nd PEB
14 2nd Corps. One of such rooms was assigned to us. In the room, we set up
15 work, and that is where the entire process took place. That is also
16 where the people rested.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I already now ask you to focus your
18 answers on what was asked. The question simply was: Were you in the
19 same room with the ABiH. The answer simply was no, you were not in the
20 same room. And whether someone was resting there or whether -- that's
21 all, whether it was set up for work. If Mr. Jeremy would like to know,
22 he'll certainly ask you.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
24 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Witness, in your written evidence, P1654, you provide an overview
1 of the equipment you used in the interception process. And I'm not going
2 to ask you to do that again. But what I would like you to do is -- is to
3 try and put the Court in the shoes of an intercept operator working a
4 shift. Typically, what equipment does he have in front of him and what's
5 he doing, typically, in just a few sentences, please?
6 A. Very well. In the room there were two desks. On them, we had
7 all of the equipment that was foreseen to monitor and record and
8 reproduce all intercepts. There were two operators in the room. Before
9 them were a number of scanning devices. There was one device assigned
10 exclusively to monitor one channel, then there was a reel-to-reel tape
11 recorder, an UHER, so that would be it, more or less. If you want any
12 other detail, I'll be happy to explain exactly what kind of equipment we
13 had and what each piece was supposed to do.
14 Q. Okay. And while an intercept operator is listening to a
15 communication that he has intercepted, how would he know what frequency
16 that particular communication that he's intercepted is on?
17 A. The devices had a display where one could see the frequency
18 currently being monitored.
19 Q. Now, you mention the reel-to-reel tape recorder which I also
20 understand is known as UHER, and I'd like to discuss the practicalities
21 of the process of using that recorder, that UHER recorder.
22 MR. JEREMY: Now, Your Honours, we actually have a physical UHER
23 recorder in the courtroom which, if you think would be of any assistance,
24 we thought we might show to the witness to just basically take us through
25 the mechanics of the recording process. I've discussed this with
1 Mr. Lukic who didn't have any objections.
2 So if Your Honours think it would be of any assistance, then I
3 propose we show it to the witness.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear in what way it would assist
6 us, but the Chamber is willing to take the risk that it will not assist
7 us and nevertheless spend time on it. Always everyone is talking about
8 an UHER recorder, I always understood UHER to be a factory. So therefore
9 not very specific on the type of what we actually look at.
10 But if you would try to do it as efficiently as possible.
11 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please --
13 MR. JEREMY: I'll grab it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- show it to us. Now, the problem, of course,
15 always is that then that becomes a piece of evidence, and should be -- it
16 should be tendered, it should be stored as a --
17 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, we have a picture of the UHER which is
18 in -- now in evidence as P1561.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. If you think that the actual object adds
20 anything, then that should be in evidence as well. That's the
21 consequence of -- no, if you want to show the picture, then that's no
22 problem. Even markings are more easily made on pictures than on
24 MR. JEREMY: In --
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you make experiments, you should think over the
2 legal consequences as well.
3 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, perhaps I'll proceed with my questions
4 with the witness, and if I think it becomes necessary to use the physical
5 UHER, then we can do that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And use the photograph meanwhile.
7 MR. JEREMY: Okay.
8 Q. Witness, so I'd mentioned I'd like to discuss the practicalities
9 of the recording of an intercept with the UHER machine. Now, in your
10 testimony in the Tolimir case, you state that:
11 "When an intercept operator hears a conversation that he wishes
12 to record, he would press the pause button and the UHER device would
13 start to record."
14 And that's at transcript page 2058. Now, can you please explain
15 this because it sounds strange to say that the recording of a
16 conversation begins once the pause button is pressed? So could you
17 explain that, please?
18 A. Yes. At the moment when I spoke those words, I had the image of
19 an UHER in my mind which continues to record when you press the pause
20 button for the second time. And there is another model where when you
21 press the pause button you would stop the recording. That may be the
22 route of the misunderstanding.
23 When you wanted to record a conversation, you would have to
24 release the pause button for the recording to start. You asked me when
25 we would start to record. We would do so at the moment when we heard the
1 beginning of a conversation. We even got a signal when somebody's phone
2 rang, and we were ready to release the pause button which would
3 immediately start the recording. However, if those conversations were
4 very short, we sometimes were unable to record it or catch the beginning
5 because we were busy doing something else, and then the conversation
6 could begin with -- before we were able to release the pause button.
7 Q. So if I understand your evidence correctly, the UHER machine is
8 already set to record but the pause button is on, thereby preventing
9 recording. And when a conversation begins that the operator wants to
10 record, he released the pause button and the recording begins?
11 A. Exactly.
12 Q. [Microphone not activated] Now, you mention that there was
13 sometimes -- now, you mention that there were occasions on which you fail
14 to catch the -- the beginning of a recording because you were busy doing
15 something else. Now, again, in a few sentences, can you -- can you
16 explain to the Court why that might be the case? Why there might be a
17 delay between an operator hearing a conversation and the recording of
18 that conversation actually starting?
19 A. It did happen. I don't know how often. The operator was a
20 device ready to record on the reception side, but nobody is talking. And
21 then he moves to another device and uses it to scan frequencies to find
22 another potential interesting conversation. It could happen for someone
23 to set up a connection and say, "Hello, this is so-and-so, I need to
24 speak with so-and-so," and then we couldn't react so fast as to release
25 the pause button immediately. But we would then put down on paper that a
1 conversation between X and Y started on channel so-and-so at time stamp
3 Q. And you mentioned that you would make a notation on a piece of
4 paper about who the conversation was between and the time that it
5 started. Now, was this piece of paper different to those pieces of paper
6 upon which somebody would transcribe the conversation that was recorded?
7 A. Yes. That sheet of paper was separate from the other paper on
8 which that conversation was subsequently reproduced. This former sheet
9 of paper was a small slip on which we noted the conversations, including
10 the elements that are mentioned. Sometimes those conversations were not
11 urgent. It wasn't so important for them to be reproduced immediately.
12 Then we would continue to record other conversations. And when we
13 thought it necessary to reproduce them, we went back to that slip of
14 paper with the elements jotted down on it, and we also read the counter
15 of the device so that the conversation could easier be located on another
16 device. So it was a manner to save time.
17 Q. And just so that I am clear, the transcriber of the conversation,
18 the subsequent transcriber of the conversation, would they have access to
19 this small slip of paper noting down the identities of the individuals
20 involved in the conversation?
21 A. Yes. The transcriber would get it together with the tape. And
22 then he would reproduce the conversation using both of these.
23 MR. JEREMY: Could the -- Your Honours, could the Court officer
24 please bring to our screens 65 ter 21028A. And while that's coming up,
25 this is an intercept dated the 16th of July, 1995, between Main Staff
1 duty officer and General Mladic.
2 Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at the intercept on the screen
3 before you and let me know whether you recognise this as an intercept
4 report prepared by your unit. Please take your time.
5 A. Yes. This is our reproduction. We did this.
6 Q. And can you explain how you are able to identify this as
7 originating from your unit?
8 A. Every time we would type the heading CSB/SDB Tuzla, the date and
9 the number at which this would be filed, and then the following remarks,
10 on the above date, monitoring, et cetera. So you see the frequency, the
11 channel, the participants, and the time-frame. This is characteristic
12 and this is how we proceeded in all reports, I think.
13 Q. Now, the introduction to this intercept indicates that
14 General Mladic was inaudible and in the conversation itself the other
15 participant does not refer to General Mladic by name. Despite this, the
16 person that transcribed this intercept identifies General Mladic as a
17 participant in the conversation. Can you explain how he could have done
19 A. Let me first say that in no reproduction of ours we stated names
20 unless we had heard them or identified them in a different way. In this
21 case, I suppose that the switchboard operator said, "You have
22 General Mladic on the line," which was not recorded nor was it
23 reproduced, but the operator noted that in the introductory part.
24 Q. And in the B/C/S version of the intercepts, we see a combination
25 of letters and numbers at the bottom of the intercept report. Can you
1 explain these, please?
2 A. Yes. These are the code names or the code designations of the
3 employees of state security. In any correspondence, the employees
4 instead of using their full name they would state this code which
5 consisted of a string of letters and numbers. Those were the rules.
6 Q. And is there any significance to the order in which these letters
7 and numbers appear?
8 A. Yes, I forgot to say that. It was our practice for the one who
9 recorded the conversation is mentioned first, and the second one
10 mentioned is the employee who reproduced the conversation.
11 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I tender that as the next Prosecution
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam --
14 MR. LUKIC: No objection.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 21028A receives P1655, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P1655 is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, it just disappeared from our screens but
20 I saw some handwriting. Is that handwriting on the last document
21 translated as well? Perhaps you check that. Well, to have two times the
22 B/C/S doesn't help us in seeing whether it's --
23 MR. JEREMY: It doesn't appear to be translated, Your Honours. I
24 can -- I can request a translation of the handwritten part.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please have a look at it. I take it that
1 the Defence is better able to identify what approximately is written
2 there and how relevant and important that is.
3 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, we could also ask the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can ask the witness.
5 Can you read what is written next to the words "very urgent" in
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It says "negotiations about
8 civilians." This is obviously a working version and this was added as a
9 remark that this is about civilians. I don't believe that it bears any
10 deeper meaning.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any idea who could have written
12 that? Or do you either recognise the handwriting, or was there a
13 routine? Who could add handwriting to such reports?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I may even have been
15 the one who wrote this as a suggestion.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "as a suggestion"? For us to
17 understand who wrote that or any other suggestion in any other way?
18 Could you please repeat your answer.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This reproduction is from the
20 northern location, it arrived at the communication centre encrypted over
21 the radio, and it was received at the headquarters of our service. I
22 went to that room very often. When such a document came in, I would read
23 it and write such a remark for the employee who was going to receive this
24 document. I now -- I wrote this to point out that this was about
25 civilians and that's all the significance it has.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do you definitely recognise your
2 handwriting or is it just that you consider it possible?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my handwriting, after all.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
6 MR. JEREMY: Could we keep the document on the screen.
7 Q. Witness, I see but next to the handwriting there is a "very
8 urgent" writing and it appears in the B/C/S version of the document. Can
9 you explain why there is English there?
10 A. Yes. In these communications, depending on the urgency of
11 individual bits of information, in the upper part, where you can read
12 this "very urgent" label, we indicated some such things. Some reports
13 weren't really all that urgent but were still labeled as very urgent.
14 Q. But why did you use the English words "very urgent" in this B/C/S
16 A. It was a qualification. It was part of the terminology used by
17 our service. We used this very phrase, although it's an English phrase.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. JEREMY: We can take that document down.
20 Q. Witness, we've discussed the process of recording of the
21 intercepted communications, and you've referred to pieces of paper on
22 which notations were made at the start of the conversations and which
23 were used to transcribe the communications from the recorded tapes. Now,
24 were these individual pieces of paper or were they part of notebooks?
25 A. At that time, we didn't have notebooks. We couldn't procure
1 enough. That is why I procured sheets of paper. I even remember very
2 well how I was able to do so and how I brought them to the location.
3 They were used in a firm for electronic data processing. They were blank
4 sheets and with perforated rims, and we used those. There were also
5 other kinds of paper in use but we mostly used this type.
6 Q. And as regards the tapes that you used, the tapes used in the
7 UHER recorders, was each intercepted communication recorded onto a
8 separate tape or were the tapes reused?
9 A. In practice we would record the conversation on a tape and mark
10 it in the fashion that I've described. If at any point a very urgent or
11 important conversation would begin, we would immediately take it off
12 and -- or, rather, record it and reproduce it. We recorded those on a
13 special tape, on UHER machine, and also mark the counter readings for
14 that specific conversation as well as the exact time and date. That's
15 how we made sure that the tape from which we copied that could be used
16 for further recordings, because we didn't have a sufficient supply of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek some clarification there, especially in
19 view of the terms used.
20 You said:
21 "If at any point a very urgent or important conversation would
22 begin, you would immediately take it off -- or, rather, record it and
23 reproduce it."
24 What do you mean by reproduction, that you would copy it on
25 another tape apart from the tape on which it was initially recorded?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is what it was
2 like. There was a reception set, a tape recorder on which we recorded
3 conversations, registered them, I explained to you how we went about it,
4 and then suddenly a very interesting conversation begins. We immediately
5 remove the tape and put it on another recorder for that other person to
6 reproduce it - that is, type it up on paper - then transfer it to a
7 computer, encrypted it, and forwarded it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You said you immediately removed the tape. That is,
9 therefore, a tape on which a number of conversations are recorded. You
10 take that tape off, put it on another recorder, and then start working on
11 writing down what then should be the last conversation that was recorded
12 on that tape. Is that how I have to understand it?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only because it was so urgent we
14 gave it priority, but at the same time, we took the opportunity to
15 reproduce the previous ones as well. And the machine that was left
16 without a tape would then get another tape so that we could continue to
17 record. And that very urgent conversation would be then copied to
18 another tape dedicated to very important stuff so that the original reel
19 could be put back to use as we were short of supply.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the tape with the very important conversation
21 with all the proceeding ones would be put on another recorder, and from
22 there you started working on it, including that you would copy that very
23 important conversation onto another tape which then contained only the
24 very important conversations. Is that how I have to understand it?
25 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
1 MR. JEREMY:
2 Q. Witness, just to --
3 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Witness, you mentioned the pieces of paper that were used to
5 record the conversations. What happened to those pieces of paper?
6 A. Those pieces of paper on which we registered the conversations,
7 because we couldn't reproduce each conversation immediately because they
8 weren't so important or urgent and it would be much more resource
9 intensive, together with all other paper containing reproductions, these
10 pieces of paper were destroyed eventually. Only on the separate tape to
11 which we copied conversations, there would be the registration data that
12 we forwarded to headquarters.
13 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I now have a few private session
14 questions. I wonder if perhaps we could take the break and resume in
15 private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we take the break first, and we take the
17 break after we have turned into closed session and will then resume at
18 20 minutes to 2.00, again in closed session, and then turn into private
20 [Closed session]
11 Page 13614 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. JEREMY:
11 Q. Witness, during your Tolimir testimony, you discuss the fact that
12 at a certain point you began to share communications that your unit had
13 intercepted with -- you shared with the ABiH, so you exchanged
14 communications that each of you had intercepted. Now, how did this
15 information sharing happen in practice? Just in a sentence or two,
17 A. At some point it proved to be a very practical approach because
18 our reports also contained some elements of military operations
19 deployment and conversations which had military matters as their topic.
20 We agreed that following each day the operators would exchange all
21 information gathered during that day on diskettes. It was done the
22 following way: The operator from the PEB unit of the 2nd Corps would
23 bring to our office the conversations they had intercepted and
24 reproduced. Also on our part when we copied our conversations, we copied
25 them onto a diskette as well which would then be taken to the 2nd Corps
1 of the Army of BiH. It also happened that some urgent conversations be
2 exchanged even before and not at the end of the day.
3 Q. And when you received an intercepted communication from the ABiH,
4 before you forwarded it on to your unit, to your headquarters, would you
5 change the substance of that intercept in any way?
6 A. Yes, that's something I forgot to say. We had also agreed to
7 include in the heading of each report that we forwarded which had not
8 been created by our department; in other words, that it was taken from
9 the 2nd PEB of the 2nd Corps, we would designate in the heading that it
10 was taken over from the 2nd Corps PEB unit. Also, the operators at the
11 communications centre of the 2nd Corps PEB unit did the same. They would
12 note down that a report or the reports in question were taken over from
13 the State Security Service.
14 Q. Witness, I'd now like to briefly look at a few intercepts. The
15 first of which is 65 ter 27536A.
16 MR. JEREMY: I'd be grateful if the Court officer could please
17 bring that to our screens.
18 Q. And this is an intercepted communication dated the
19 16th of July, 1995, at 0830 hours between General Mladic and someone
20 called Dule.
21 Witness, I'd like you to take a look at the intercept at the top
22 of the screen on the left side with number 648. Do you recognise this as
23 an intercept prepared by your unit?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How are you able to recognise it as being prepared by your unit,
2 A. It is based on the heading: CSB, SDB Tuzla, the date, the
3 16th of July, and based on the sentence which follows as well as based on
4 the signatures of the two people involved, one of whom recorded the
5 intercept and the other one transcribed it, so we see all of the elements
6 that were used by the personnel in my unit.
7 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'd tender that exhibit as the next
8 Prosecution exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 27536A receives number P1656,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. JEREMY: Could the Court officer please bring to our screens
15 65 ter 21037B. And this is an intercept dated the 16th of July, 1995,
16 2230 hours, between General Mladic and someone called Mane.
17 Q. Witness, referring to the first intercept on the screen before
18 you with number 671, the same question: Do you recognise this as being
19 an intercept report prepared by your unit?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. JEREMY: And, Your Honours, I would tender that exhibit as
22 the next Prosecution exhibit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 21037B receives number P1657,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. JEREMY: Could the Court officer please bring to our screen
3 65 ter 28429A.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the number again, Mr. Jeremy.
5 MR. JEREMY: Yes, 28429A. And this is the same date. It's the
6 second intercept that we just saw appearing in that sequence. And it's
7 between -- it's dated 2250 hours between General Mladic and a certain
8 Kostic 20 minutes after the conversation we just looked at.
9 Q. And same question, Witness, do you identify this as an intercept
10 report prepared by your unit?
11 A. I don't have that report on my screen. Sorry, sorry. It is the
12 next report, the one below?
13 Q. Yes --
14 A. 672?
15 Q. That's correct.
16 A. Yes. It is also our report.
17 MR. JEREMY: I tender that as the next Prosecution exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 28492A receives number P1658,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. JEREMY:
23 Q. Witness, I'd like to show you a final intercept, one that you
24 looked at during your Tolimir testimony.
25 MR. JEREMY: Could the Court officer please bring Exhibit P01235
1 to our screens.
2 Q. And, Witness, while this is being brought to our screens, I will
3 refresh your memory by stating that this is an intercept from the
4 12th of July --
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the number.
8 MR. JEREMY: P01235.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The document is under seal, Your Honours.
10 MR. JEREMY:
11 Q. And, Witness, this is an intercept dated the 12th of July, 1995,
12 at 1250 that records General Mladic discussing the departure of buses and
13 trucks with an unidentified male person before General Mladic goes on to
14 state that:
15 "They've all capitulated and surrendered and we'll evacuate them
16 all - those who want to and those who don't want to."
17 And, Witness, I'm focusing on the first intercept in this report
18 with number 570. Now you've discussed this in your Tolimir testimony,
19 transcript page 2077, so I'm not intending to again go into any great
20 detail. But I would like to ask you how General Mladic would have been
21 identified in this conversation since he doesn't introduce himself and he
22 isn't referred to by another participant?
23 A. I'd like to seize this opportunity to mention that all of the
24 people working on these tasks were ham radio enthusiasts, people who
25 could identify voices well. Mladic's voice was something one could hear
1 publicly and it was no problem ever to recognise him. Given that it
2 appears that I recorded this conversation, I can confirm that I am
3 positive that it was Mladic. He can be heard.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get a clarification, Mr. Jeremy.
5 Witness, how do you determine that you recorded this from this
6 document that's written before us? Are there any initials of yours shown
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. If you look at
9 the bottom of the document, at least in the Bosnian version, there is a
10 sequence of numbers and letters being the code of the employees who
11 recorded and transcribed the two reports.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 MR. JEREMY: That concludes my direct examination, Your Honours.
14 No further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
16 Mr. Lukic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.
19 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you'll find Mr. Lukic to your
21 MR. LUKIC: I told you I am, and obviously I'm not ready yet.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 MR. LUKIC: Can I start?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 [Interpretation] I thought I would start with some general topics
2 but my learned friend, Mr. Jeremy, bravely embarked upon his examination
3 with a document which was assigned P1655. And for the rest of the day,
4 today, I'll be dealing with it.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. I'll address you with "sir" because I cannot force myself to call
9 you 316.
10 A. Very well.
11 Q. On this document for which you said you had probably received and
12 made the handwritten notation, we can see that it is an intercept dated
13 the 16th of July, 1995. The time noted down cites as the conversation
14 being intercepted at 4.15 p.m.; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Apologies. How precise were these time designations because this
21 was not recorded, correct? It was simply written by hand.
22 A. We had a clock in the office based on which we noted down the
23 time. Now, as for how precise it was, I believe it was because later on
24 we had this report encoded and in our log-book it received a new title
25 and number. In that new number, among other things, you can see the time
1 of encryption; in other words, one can compare this time with the time of
2 encryption. We strove, of course, to note the exact time.
3 Q. In any case, there shouldn't be great discrepancies. If there
4 are differences, they are by a minute or two?
5 A. I agree.
6 Q. Can you see from this document what was the route? It says here
7 Pale, frequency 836 megahertz, channel 13. Can you tell us which
8 transmitter was used to have the conversation recorded?
9 A. I'll try to explain. This specific frequency was found by us.
10 There must be a date in the log-book. And it was barely audible, thus we
11 had to install new antennae and at the end we received a better signal
12 and better audibility. In my department, we did not have information on
13 the position of radio relay routes used by the VRS. At this point in
14 time, we called it the radio relay route Pale. The frequency that you
15 can see here, if you were to look at military documents, I believe you
16 would find there exactly what radio relay route it is, what the
17 transmitters that were used were. We did not investigate that and we did
18 not have the necessary resources. We believe that this signal was
19 received by reflection, when it bounced off mountains, in other words.
20 We were not within the beam where this radio relay route would be
22 Perhaps to clarify further: In order to receive a quality
23 signal, we had to install and mount an antenna, a parabolic antenna, a
24 huge antenna of some 2 metres in diameter on the mountain.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, and perhaps I
1 address the witness as well, the question was: Can you tell us which
2 transmitter was used to have the conversation recorded. I always
3 understood that the transmitter used is to send or to repeat the signal
4 and that the recording is not done by the transmitter but by the
5 reception station, and then subsequently the reel-to-reel recorder. Is
6 that what you meant and is that how you understood the question, Witness?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. Radio relay
8 directions -- well, this one specifically is RRU 800 under the
9 terminology of the former JNA. I don't know where the transmitter is
11 JUDGE ORIE: Because your equipment recorded it and the
12 transmitter relays the signal to the -- to its destination.
13 Mr. Lukic, I was slightly confused by the language you used in
14 your question, but there seems to be no further misunderstanding.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Sir, I wanted you to tell us, if you know, and if you don't know
17 tell us you don't know: Can you tell and do you see from this document
18 from which direction this conversation was transmitted? Can you
19 determine that? Do you know?
20 A. I don't know where it was transmitted from. Except for the fact
21 that this frequency was linked to the Main Staff of the VRS. That's what
22 we found out in our work. And channel 13, actually, was Ratko Mladic's
23 telephone line.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us how you did find out that that
25 channel 13 was, as you said, Ratko Mladic's telephone line? Is that how
1 it was used or by technical means?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you see this
3 frequency 836. It has two lateral stretches that contain 12 channels
4 each. That is a total of 24 channels which means 24 phone lines. How
5 did we know that this was Mladic's phone line? Because he personally
6 spoke on that line and he had a secretary there or whoever it was who
7 answered calls when Mladic was out. And after a short while, we
8 established that it was his phone number.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 You may proceed, Mr. --
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: I need five minutes. I need five minutes. I have to
14 finish it today. Just this small issue.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With the indulgence of the interpreters, et
16 cetera, transcriber. If you can finish in five minutes --
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're allowed to do so.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, channel 13 where you say the secretary was answering calls,
22 according to you was that a real telephone at the Main Staff?
23 A. I don't know what that phone looked like. But Mladic spoke over
24 that phone, and when he was absent when people were calling to speak to
25 him, somebody would answer calls saying that he was out in the field.
1 But you can believe me that I've never seen that equipment because I was
2 not a member of military formations.
3 Q. All right. Thank you. Would you say that General Mladic took
4 part in this conversation if I were to say to you that it is not
5 contested between the OTP and the Defence that on that day at that -- at
6 this time General Mladic was in Belgrade?
7 A. Before this I was saying that we didn't enter anything we were
8 not certain about.
9 Q. Just a moment, please. You have just given us an explanation of
10 channel 13. Now you are changing your statement and saying that we never
11 entered anything that we didn't hear. Do you have information that on
12 the 16th of July, 1995, General Mladic was in Belgrade and was it
13 possible for him to speak on this channel?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy. Mr. Jeremy.
15 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I think the characterisation of the
16 witness's evidence as having changed his statement is not accurate.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with that.
18 Parties do agree that Mr. Mladic was for the whole of the day on
19 the 16th of July in Belgrade?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I -- I'm sorry, we believe he came back sometime
21 in the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, so --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- late afternoon or evening.
24 MR. LUKIC: No, no, no, we won't [Overlapping speakers] finish it
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please, please.
2 MR. LUKIC: No, they claim that Mr. Mladic was at 1800 at medical
3 academy in Belgrade.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you put to the witness that it was agreed
5 among the parties --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- that General Mladic was on the 16th of July in
9 One second, one second.
10 This is ambiguous language to the extent that you could
11 understand that as that he was on that day in Belgrade. You could also
12 understand it that he was in Belgrade for the whole of that day. The
13 only thing, if you put it to the witness, it should be precise. That's
14 the reason why I inquired with the Prosecution on what exactly was
15 agreed, and that is what I expect you to put to the witness if you want
16 to put to him that Mr. Mladic was in --
17 MR. LUKIC: I can easily do that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm not -- of course, I expect you --
19 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be easy to do that. And then Mr. McCloskey
21 will carefully listen and will agree that you reflected it accurately.
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Witness, on the 16th of July, 1995, General Mladic was at a
24 wedding from the early morning hours. At that wedding he was best man.
25 The first site where he stayed was a restaurant, then an Orthodox church,
1 then a restaurant again, and after 2000 hours or after that -- after that
2 hour he was recorded by Mr. Lesic on video which is an exhibit in this
3 trial, and he was at a meeting at the military medical academy?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just limit it to what is relevant.
5 During what time it is uncontested between the parties that Mr. Mladic
6 was in Belgrade. That's the only thing that matters. Whether he was in
7 church or a wedding or at a funeral or -- that is not relevant. You
8 wanted to put to the witness that the parties agree that up to a certain
9 point in time Mr. Mladic was in Belgrade. If you put that to the
10 witness, that's sufficient, and then repeat your question.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. At least until after 1800 hours on that same day when he was
13 recorded by the OTP witness - who is giving evidence in this trial - he
14 was recorded on video at the VMA. There are also photographs taken at
15 the wedding which were also shown here.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, again, what you apparently want to put to
17 the witness is the following: Mr. Lukic puts to you that the parties
18 agree that Mr. Mladic was until at least 1800 hours or until shortly
19 after 1800 hours in Belgrade. Now, the question of Mr. Lukic is how you
20 can reconcile this with the recording made here, that he used this
21 communication channel. Could he have done so if he was in Belgrade?
22 That's the question.
23 Mr. Lukic, that's the question, isn't it?
24 Could he have used this channel of communication when being in
25 Belgrade until at least 1800 hours? Could you answer that question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we read the first
2 sentence carefully which says:
3 "On the above date, monitoring the Pale radio relay, on frequency
4 836.000 MHz, Channel 13, at 1615 hours, we recorded a conversation
5 between the Main Staff duty officer," in other words the man sitting by
6 Mladic's telephone, and Mladic himself who could have been anywhere.
7 They were talking to each other and he was not in his office, if I was
8 clear enough.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You say wherever he was at that time, this
10 communication as recorded here, recorded from this communication channel,
11 could have been with anyone at any place?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. That is correct.
13 Mladic could have been on any other telephone. Here, the duty officer at
14 the Main Staff used this phone on this channel to talk to Mladic. It
15 wasn't Mladic who was available on that number.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So are you saying that it wasn't General Mladic talking on
19 channel 13? You couldn't hear General Mladic?
20 A. That is correct. It wasn't possible to hear him. On channel 13,
21 we heard what was being said on that phone. Often -- very often, we
22 didn't hear the other party. Until later, we founded the other frequency
23 carrying the voice of the other participant. In this case, the duty
24 officer of the Main Staff talked to Mladic who was somewhere else and who
25 couldn't be heard.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you said you'd need three, four
2 minutes --
3 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- but we are now seven or eight minutes beyond the
5 time where we should take --
6 MR. LUKIC: We'll continue on Tuesday.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will. Witness, I would first like to
8 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way
9 with whoever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have
10 given today or whether it's testimony still to be given next week. We'd
11 like to see you back on Tuesday morning. We'll not have a hearing on
12 Monday at 9.30 in this courtroom -- in the courtroom III, I'm making a
14 So we'd like to see you back. And once we are in closed session,
15 so as to enable you to leave the courtroom, we will adjourn in closed
16 session until Tuesday, the 2nd of July, 2013, 9.30 in the morning,
17 courtroom III.
18 And I thank the interpreters, transcriber, whoever assists us for
19 their indulgence to have gone 10 minutes beyond the usual time.
20 [Closed session]
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.26 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd
4 day of July, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.