Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8733

 1                           Wednesday, 3 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Could the witness make the

 7     solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  KW558

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated and make yourself

13     comfortable.

14             Sir, do you hear me in your language?  Now do you understand me

15     while in the language you understand, sir?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I can hear you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Today, we continue to sit

18     pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Lattanzi being away due to her

19     official duties.

20             Sir, before you commence your evidence, I would like to let you

21     know a couple of things.  First thing is related to your protective

22     measures.  You will be testifying today with the benefit of the pseudonym

23     and image and voice distortion.  I was mistaken.  You will have the image

24     distortion only.  Shall I show the witness the -- his image that will be

25     broadcast outside?  If the audio and video unit -- yes.  This is how you


Page 8734

 1     will look outside.  Do you understand that?  And you will be referred to

 2     as your Witness number instead of your real name.  Whenever we may

 3     discuss something that may reveal your identity, we will go into private

 4     session, which means what we discuss inside the courtroom will not be

 5     heard outside at all.  Do you understand that, sir?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Next, I must draw your attention to a certain rule,

 8     the rule of evidence that we have here at the International Tribunal.

 9     That is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

10     question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges, if

11     you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

12     In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount

13     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

14     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

15             However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you

16     and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the question, I must let you

17     know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the

18     question, but in such circumstances, the Tribunal would ensure that your

19     testimony, compelled in such circumstances, would not be used in any case

20     that might be laid against you for any offence save and except the

21     offence of giving false testimony.

22             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.


Page 8735

 1     Good morning to everyone.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 4        A.   Good morning to everyone.

 5        Q.   I will be pausing for interpretation and I kindly ask you to do

 6     the same.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court without

 8     being broadcast in public 1D09040?

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Kindly tell us, Witness, does this number tally with the name --

11     or, rather, is this your name?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the document

15     under seal.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I notice there's a mistake.

18     It should be KW558.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  We will correct that and upload the correction.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we note that.  You'll be called as KW558.  Do

22     you understand that?  Yes, we will admit it under seal.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3762, under seal, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 8736

 1        Q.   Witness, have you testified in any other case and have you had an

 2     opportunity of reviewing your testimony in the course of the past days?

 3        A.   Yes.  In 2004, in the month of January, it was the 23rd, the 24th

 4     of January, 2004, that I testified in the Blagojevic and Jokic case.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court 1D06910?

 7     And without it being publicly broadcast until we see if it's been

 8     redacted or not.  Yes.  It's a public document.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, in the course of proofing with my Defence team, have you

11     had an opportunity of reviewing the recording of your testimony in that

12     case?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Have you come to the conclusion that what you stated at the time

15     was properly recorded and was consistent with what you stated at the

16     time?

17        A.   To the extent I was able to establish, it is consistent with my

18     testimony at the time.  And let me just note that I was a protected

19     witness of the Prosecution at the time.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today as

21     had been put to you at the time in the courtroom, would your answers

22     essentially be the same?

23        A.   All the answers would essentially be the same as the ones from

24     the previous testimony.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 8737

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the

 2     transcript into evidence pursuant to 92 ter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Although this first page is conducted in open

 4     session, I take it that part of this transcript contains private session

 5     testimony, therefore it should be put under seal.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  And we've also

 7     uploaded a public transcript which is 1D06955, so we would ask that they

 8     both be admitted.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering any associated exhibits?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There are seven associated

11     exhibits.  We would ask that they also be added to our 65 ter list as we

12     hadn't decided to use that testimony as the 92 ter material at the time

13     we filed that exhibit list.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Are there any objections, Mr. Costi?

15             MR. COSTI:  No objections.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Both versions of the transcript will be admitted as

17     well as the seven associated exhibits.  Shall we assign the numbers in

18     the order of the number of the 65 ter numbers?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  1D6910 will be D3763, under

20     seal.  1D6955 will be Exhibit D3764.  And the seven associated exhibits

21     listed in the 92 ter notification will be assigned Exhibits D3765 through

22     to Exhibit D3771 respectively.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And the last item should be put under seal, I take

24     it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  They will be placed under seal according to the


Page 8738

 1     comments in the notification.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  I note there are two items, yes.  Thank

 3     you.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out the

 5     summary detailing the gist of the testimony of this witness in English.

 6             [In English] The Prosecution Witness KDZ065, whose evidence was

 7     admitted in this case in writing as Exhibit P336, claims that after his

 8     capture in Konjevic Polje on the morning of 13 of July 1995, the Witness

 9     KW558 took him to a nearby house where he was held prisoner.  He also

10     claims that Witness KW558 escorted him to an interrogatory --

11     interrogation by --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  The summary of other

13     witness's evidence is part of this witness's evidence, Mr. Robinson?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Actually, I wrote this

15     summary and these are the propositions that were put to the witness

16     during his testimony in the Blagojevic case and then, as we indicate in

17     the second paragraph of the summary, the witness refuted those.  So this

18     is, I think, a fair summary of what was -- what the transcript reveals.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Costi, do you have any observation?

20             MR. COSTI:  Although this is not part of the evidence, I think it

21     would be a good practice if the summary was the summary of the actual

22     testimony of the witness rather than the case that was presented to the

23     witness by the Prosecution or by the Defence.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, can we not go directly to his


Page 8739

 1     evidence?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we could do that.  If you

 3     would allow me, I could make a small summary of his evidence since we are

 4     going to have to depart from the text.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  So, Mr. President, Witness KW558 worked as a

 7     police officer and was present in Konjevic Polje on the morning of

 8     13 July 1995.  He has testified that he does not know the individual

 9     known as Prosecution Witness KDZ065 and that he did not transport him to

10     a nearby house where that person claims to have been held prisoner.  He

11     also testified that he did not escort this witness to an interrogation by

12     Bosnian Serb army officers in Konjevic Polje and did not hear of any or

13     witness any beatings or execution of Bosnian Muslims during those events.

14     He also testified that Nenad Deronjic was not working in Konjevic Polje

15     on 13th of July, 1995, as far as he knows.  And he never heard of any

16     execution by the banks of the Jadar River.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.  He also claims that KDZ065 --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think the summary has been read out

21     and that has been concluded.

22             MR. KARADZIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, Excellency.  So at that

23     moment I do not have additional questions for Mr. Witness.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Sir, yes?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may make one point, mention


Page 8740

 1     was made of me being there as a policeman.  I wasn't there in the

 2     capacity of a policeman.  I worked as a communications operator.  I had

 3     never been a policeman, either before, during or after that period.

 4     I was a member of the MUP but, of course, there are other services that

 5     make up the MUP as well.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if I understood well -- shall I ask the

 7     Defence to clarify with the witness what he meant?

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Excellency, but do we need private session for

 9     that?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will go into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 8741

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12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Sir, your evidence-in-chief in this case has

14     been -- yes, did you want to say something?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Your evidence has been admitted in writing,

17     that is through your written transcript of testimony in the Blagojevic

18     case, in lieu of your oral testimony, and now you'll be cross-examined by

19     the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand

20     that, sir?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Costi?

23             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning everyone in

24     the courtroom.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Costi


Page 8742

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   On 16 March 2001, you gave an interview to the Office of the

 4     Prosecutor, right?

 5        A.   Were they representatives of the Office of the Prosecutors or

 6     The Hague investigators on the 16th of March in Banja Luka?  Well, I know

 7     that they were investigators.

 8        Q.   Well, yes.  They were representatives of the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor.  And you told the truth during that interview, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. COSTI:  Can we go into private session, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 8743

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Page 8746

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

12             MR. COSTI:

13        Q.   Sir, on 13 of July, you were in Konjevic Polje, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you said in your statement that you did not see any Muslim

16     detainee with the exception of two, Hasan Salihovic, a former colleague

17     of yours, and Resid Sinanovic.  Right?

18        A.   Yes.  His last name is not Selimovic, it's Salihovic.  Hasan

19     Salihovic, not Selimovic.

20        Q.   That's correct.  My pronunciation might not have been accurate.

21     Now, and you explain in your testimony that Mirko Peric from the Bratunac

22     police and Dusko Neskovic from the Skelani police accompanied these two

23     Muslim prisoners to the house where the communication room was.  Right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you did recognise Hasan Salihovic as a former colleague of


Page 8747

 1     yours, right?

 2        A.   No.  Took them away.  They brought them into the house where our

 3     command and communications centre were housed, and they brought the two

 4     men there.  And we were there on the premises of the communications

 5     centre.

 6        Q.   That must have been a translation issue because that's what

 7     I meant.  They brought it to the house where you were.  So and you showed

 8     some sympathy to Hasan because you said in your testimony you gave him

 9     food and cigarettes.  Right?

10        A.   I gave them both to Hasan and to Sinanovic.  Hasan was my

11     colleague from pre-war period.  We worked together at the police station

12     in Zenica.  He finished the secondary school of the interior with

13     Nenad Deronjic.  They were assigned to Gracac before Srebrenica, and then

14     they came to Srebrenica to work there at the SJB for about a year and

15     they worked there until the war broke out.  Resid Sinanovic was brought

16     by Mirko Peric before the war.  He used to be a kind of manager at the

17     SJB.  I didn't know him, but Mirko Peric, having worked there, is the

18     reason why they knew each other.

19        Q.   Sure.  And the -- so you showed some sympathy, you remember

20     offering food and cigarettes to both of them, right?

21        A.   Not only to Hasan.  I offered this to Resid, cigarettes, coffee

22     and whatever.  Initially, I didn't recognise Hasan because I used to see

23     him in uniform.  Now he was wearing an old suit, civilian clothes.

24        Q.   And you had a conversation with Hasan and then you told him to

25     relax because he was quite agitated.  This is what you said in your


Page 8748

 1     testimony, right?

 2        A.   It was not properly translated.  He was not agitated.  He was

 3     terrified.

 4        Q.   And you tried to help him to relax.  In fact, in your testimony

 5     you said, and I quote your testimony in what you said to Hasan, you said:

 6             Please relax, just that we were sitting together in 1992,

 7     together when we were having coffee together in the police station, when

 8     we were colleagues, right?  This is --

 9        A.   I literally said:

10             Hasko, feel as if what the two of us used to do before the war,

11     at the police station.  We are having coffee together, don't be afraid.

12        Q.   Yeah.

13        A.   If I may add, because before the war, communications centre was

14     part of the Srebrenica CJB.

15        Q.   Now, in during this conversation you also asked Hasan why he

16     surrendered, and Hasan told you that he couldn't bear anymore the

17     situation because his son, brothers and father had been killed?

18        A.   No.  That's -- well, the essence of our conversation was I asked

19     him:  Hasko, didn't you go to Tuzla before the war, because I remained

20     working in Srebrenica up until the 17th of April, 1992, and then at one

21     point, I'm talking about this specific period, I think he had a wife and

22     two children and he drove them to Gradacac because that's where his wife

23     came from.  I think that he also wanted to take his parents as well and

24     I thought that he had gone there.  And then all of a sudden, when he

25     appeared in 1995, I was surprised to see him.


Page 8749

 1             May I?  He told me that he had managed to take his wife and

 2     children to Gradacac, that he went back to drive his parents away, but

 3     since there were roadblocks, he couldn't make it and they remained in

 4     Srebrenica.

 5        Q.   So you didn't ask him why he surrendered at that point?

 6     I understand that part of the conversation --

 7        A.   No, no, no.  I asked him because I was convinced, I thought --

 8     and I was surprised to see him there.  I was convinced that he had left

 9     in 1992 together with his parents.  In 1992, Srebrenica was an empty town

10     in the month of April of 1992.

11             MR. COSTI:  Your Honour, can we go to private session, please?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 8750

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Page 8751

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

19             MR. COSTI:  Thank you.

20        Q.   We've already mentioned Mirko Peric of the Bratunac police.  Now,

21     as you may know, Mirko Peric provided a statement to the Karadzic Defence

22     and he also gave an interview to the Bosnian Serb MUP in 2003, and in

23     both testimony he said that in the room, when he brought Resid Sinanovic,

24     he saw some other Muslims.  Or to use the words, the language that he

25     used in the interview:  "I saw some other people detained there."


Page 8752

 1             So even one of your colleagues recalls that in the house where

 2     you were, the communication room, there were other detainees.  So I'm

 3     asking it again, do you recall other Muslim detainees being held there

 4     together with Resid and Hasan?

 5        A.   I don't remember that at all, no, I don't remember.  I only know

 6     about those two, that they were offered food, that we were sitting and

 7     talking, that he was describing the situation in Srebrenica and so on.

 8     He told us that one kilo of salt was about 100 German marks, the price of

 9     the coffee, that the living conditions were awful.  As for any others, I

10     don't remember.

11        Q.   Let me move on, then.  Let me show you two documents, two regular

12     combat reports of the 5th Engineering Battalion.

13             MR. COSTI:  Can I have 65 ter 03840, please?

14        Q.   Now, the one you will see appearing on your screen is a combat

15     report on 12th of July of the 5th Engineering Battalion.  And if we go on

16     the first page of both English and B/C/S, and we look at number 2,

17     letter F, it says:

18             "The MUP police company carries out tasks upon order of his

19     command, deploying patrols and setting up ambushes in the area of

20     Konjevic Polje."

21             So the MUP police task was to setting ambushes and capturing

22     Muslim in the area of Konjevic Polje, right?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   So this document is inaccurate and wrong as well?

25        A.   No.  Our specific tasks, and before the 6th Company, other


Page 8753

 1     companies, police companies, used to go to Konjevic Polje.  We were

 2     deployed there on the 4th of July.  That's what the order said.  Before

 3     us, the 5th Company had been there, since March.

 4        Q.   I'm talking about the 12th of July now --

 5        A.   If I may tell you this, and then I will tell you about this as

 6     well.  Until March 1995, the army was holding and securing the area.  In

 7     March, the public security centre of Zvornik took over and various

 8     companies, the 1st, the 2nd, the 4th, the 5th were deployed.  Before us

 9     there was the 5th Company and then finally the 6th Company was deployed

10     there.  The tasks of the police at the time were purely to secure the

11     check-point in Konjevic Polje at the intersection that was held by the

12     SJB in order to control the smuggling.

13        Q.   Shall we talk about the 12th now --

14        A.   And it all lasted until the problems around Srebrenica arose, so

15     these were purely civilian tasks and let me add this --

16        Q.   No, I'm asking you -- sorry.  I have limited time so I really ask

17     you to focus on my questions.  We are looking at a document of the 12th

18     of July, it's talking about the MUP task in the area of Konjevic Polje,

19     and I'm asking you whether it is accurate or not that MUP police carried

20     out tasks including ambushing the Muslim in the area of Konjevic Polje.

21     The answer is simple, "yes" or "no."

22        A.   The 6th Company, no.  The 6th Company took care purely of

23     civilian affairs and was providing support to the police --

24        Q.   And what about the other companies --

25        A.   -- officers at the check-point.


Page 8754

 1        Q.   Were there other MUP company engaged in these activities?

 2        A.   Up until the 12th, no, there were no such things.  But as for

 3     later, I don't know who was deployed where because I don't know.

 4        Q.   On the 12th, there was no MUP company engaged in this activity?

 5     This document is inaccurate?

 6        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I'm talking about my company, the

 7     6th Company.  As for the others, no, I'm only talking about the

 8     6th Company that had 22 members.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  May I?

10             MR. COSTI:  Now, can I ask this document to be admitted, please?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6432, Your Honours.

14             MR. COSTI:  Can we have --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Can we clarify whether this

16     is a document that originated from the army or from the police?  This

17     5th Engineers Battalion, was it part of the army or the police?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm asking the Prosecutor to

20     kindly clarify this issue.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Costi --

22             MR. COSTI:  It is from the army.

23             JUDGE KWON:  -- yes, clarified it.

24             MR. COSTI:  Can we have now P00247, please.  This is another

25     document from the same 5th Engineering Battalion, another combat report,


Page 8755

 1     this time on the 14 of July, so two days later.  And at point 1, first

 2     page of both English and B/C/S, it says:

 3             "A large enemy group was infiltrated in the region of Budo Brado

 4     [phoen] and the region of Konjevic Polje.  Units of the 5th Engineering

 5     Battalion and the MUP successfully resisted the enemy.  About a thousand

 6     to 1,500 enemy civilians and soldiers were arrested and killed."

 7        Q.   So in light of these two documents, the first one which you don't

 8     know whether it was going on, what was going on with other MUP police

 9     company, one indicated it was setting up ambushes, the other indicates

10     that 1.000, 1.500 civilians were arrested, and soldiers, and killed.  You

11     were saying that when you were in Konjevic Polje, you saw two Muslims, no

12     one else?  1.000, 1.500 in this area, and you saw two Muslims

13     surrendering and being arrested in Konjevic Polje?

14        A.   Konjevic Polje is a broad notion.  It encompasses a large area.

15     My location and where my command was -- location was a small house with

16     two storeys.  This is where the communication centre was.  What was

17     happening further afield, especially towards Pobudje and other places, I

18     had no knowledge of that because I had no possibility of knowing.  After

19     the 13th and the 14th, probably police units remained there who were

20     connected with the army, but I cannot talk about that because I wasn't

21     there and I didn't see anything.

22        Q.   So let's talk about these two Muslims you had contacts with,

23     Hasan Salihovic and Resid Sinanovic.  Now, both in your testimony in

24     Blagojevic and in your interview with the OTP, you said that they were

25     brought there to be protected.  And in particular in your interview with


Page 8756

 1     the OTP on 16 March 2001, at page 18 and 19, you said this:

 2             "Now, reportedly these two, Sinanovic Resid and Salihovic Hasan,

 3     were brought there with intention to be saved, as far as I know, because

 4     Salihovic Hasan was also a colleague of Dusko and he used to work with

 5     him together, and Sinanovic Resid used to be the chief of Peric Mirko in

 6     Bratunac.

 7             "Q.  Explain what do you mean by 'they were brought there to be

 8     saved'?

 9             "A.  They were brought there -- they brought them there with that

10     purpose.

11             "Q.  Save them from who?

12             "A.  Probably from these who went there to -- um, what do I know,

13     to ..."

14             So I'd like to clarify this point and let me ask you a series of

15     question.  First of all, you didn't want them to be killed, right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So you believed or those who brought it to you believed that it

18     wasn't safe to leave them outside in the hands of the police or the

19     military who captured them, right?

20        A.   For them not to be maltreated, in that respect.  In order to save

21     them from being maltreated they were put away and they were brought to

22     us.

23        Q.   So you wanted to protect them from other police or military that

24     might have maltreated them, right?

25        A.   Well, I don't know who could have maltreated them.  It could have


Page 8757

 1     been anyone, a soldier, a policeman, a civilian.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Well, they are in the hands of the military when they were

 3     captured or other police.  And there are no paramilitaries in the area,

 4     right?  There is no paramilitaries in 1995 July in this area?

 5        A.   I don't know to whom they were handed over because I wasn't

 6     there --

 7        Q.   That's why you said --

 8        A.   -- these two know who they handed them over to.

 9        Q.   So MUP --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please do not overlap, Mr. Costi.

11             MR. COSTI:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

13             MR. COSTI:

14        Q.   So either MUP or police -- or, sorry, either MUP or military,

15     these were the two forces acting in that point in that area, right?

16        A.   Most probably that's right.  There were both the army and the

17     police there at the time.

18        Q.   So you want --

19        A.   But I don't know all of them who were there, with the exception

20     of members of my unit, and certain individuals.

21        Q.   I'm not asking whether you know them or not.  I'm just -- you

22     agreed that there was either the police or the military that were there.

23     So you wanted to protect them from them because you knew they might have

24     been mistreated or killed, right?

25        A.   Not me, because I myself wasn't there.  There was the two of


Page 8758

 1     those men who recognised them, and between our command and the

 2     intersection from which they were brought, the distance is about

 3     200 metres.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5        A.   May I?

 6        Q.   Let me ask it again.  You said that you wanted to protect them,

 7     so you wanted -- you believed yourself that there was a risk.  You just

 8     said it, they might have been mistreated by either the military or the

 9     police?

10        A.   When they brought them to the command where we were, Dusko and

11     Mirko, they literally said in order to avoid them being maltreated, let

12     them be there because they were colleagues.

13        Q.   Now, you are also aware that they might have been killed, right?

14     You also wanted to avoid that someone who wanted to kill them among the

15     police and the military could actually kill them?

16        A.   At the time, I did not even dream that something like that could

17     happen, things that happened later on, especially the things mentioned at

18     the trial of Milosevic.  But at that particular time, we were

19     1.000 per cent sure that those men would be exchanged, that everything

20     would be carried out according to a normal procedure, and that they

21     wouldn't be harmed in any way.

22        Q.   Now, the remains of both Hasan Salihovic and Resid Sinanovic were

23     then found in mass graves.  You know that, right?

24        A.   Well, I did hear of it.  I don't know the precise circumstances.

25     I did hear that their mortal remains were recovered.  But that was after


Page 8759

 1     a long, long time.  I didn't know what became of them for a very long

 2     time.  They spent an hour perhaps there with us, an hour and a half at

 3     the most.  Momir Nikolic arrived then.  He was a security officer in the

 4     Bratunac Brigade, along with another officer, a policeman I didn't know.

 5     They came in and asked where the two were.  The door was opened to the

 6     corridor.  There was a bed there.  Hasan was seated on the other end

 7     where there was a bench and I was seated in front.  The communication

 8     between Resid and Momir was such that revealed to me that they knew each

 9     other well from before.  He didn't know Hasan, though.  The communication

10     had to do with the situation up in the woods, the head count.

11        Q.   So let me move to another topic now.

12             In your statement you said that Nenad Deronjic was occasionally

13     in Konjevic Polje, right?

14        A.   Nenad Deronjic was working for the Bratunac public security

15     station from the beginning of the war and Bratunac held the check-point

16     at Konjevic Polje.

17        Q.   Your extended testimony has been admitted in written form so

18     I would kindly ask you to, as far as you can, to stick with short answer

19     to my questions.  So the question was whether he was occasionally in

20     Konjevic Polje and you said yes.  Right?

21        A.   Yes.  He manned the check-point.

22        Q.   Now, you also said in your testimony at page 38 that it is

23     possible that Nenad Deronjic was there on the 10th and 11th of July,

24     right?  Please --

25        A.   It was so long ago so it's difficult for me to say, but there


Page 8760

 1     were shifts that he worked in, from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. and then from 6 p.m.

 2     to 6 a.m.  Now, was it the 10th or the 11th, I don't know.  He worked in

 3     shifts so he would have days off.  Now, on that day --

 4        Q.   Then you say there was an order for the Zvornik centre, security

 5     centre, an order according to which policemen who worked in Srebrenica

 6     before the war should report to the Srebrenica SJB, right?  And you said

 7     that Nenad Deronjic was one of them, former police from Srebrenica who

 8     was ordered by the Zvornik security centre to go back to Srebrenica,

 9     right?  Yes or no?  Yes?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, you also explained that this order is the reason why you

12     supposed he went to Srebrenica, and at page 38, let me read what you

13     said:

14             "And Deronjic was one of the current employees of the Srebrenica

15     police station so I suppose he went back too.  I don't remember seeing

16     him around at the time that this event involving Sinanovic and

17     Salihovic -- of the event involving Sinanovic and Salihovic."

18        A.   Salihovic.

19        Q.   And Salihovic.  So you assumed that he went to Srebrenica

20     because -- you suppose he went back too because there was this order for

21     him to go, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, you also said that you don't know when he actually reported

24     to Srebrenica, and I read what you said at page 23:

25             "But I don't know when exactly he went there."


Page 8761

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. COSTI:  Can I have -- sorry, P06429, please?

 3        Q.   Now, the one you will see appearing on the screen is the order

 4     you are referring to.  And it's an order --

 5             MR. COSTI:  I don't see the English but -- it's -- thank you.

 6     It's an order from the Zvornik CJB to the Bratunac SJB, order by Vasic,

 7     and it said:

 8             "Due to the need for the establishment of police station in

 9     Srebrenica, upon its liberation, and pursuant to the approval of the

10     Deputy Minister of Interior, I hereby issue the following order.  The

11     below listed policemen who had previously worked at the Srebrenica SJB

12     are to be sent immediately, by 21st July 1995 at the latest, to the

13     Srebrenica SJB where the station chief in coordination with the officer

14     in charge from the Zvornik CJB shall assign them to their duties and

15     tasks."

16             And then number 3, you can see Nenad Deronjic.

17             So as you said, Nenad Deronjic was deployed to the Srebrenica

18     SJB.  As you said, he was selected because he was a former policeman from

19     Srebrenica.  However, the order was issued on 18 July and he was

20     requested to report by the 21st of July.  So you testified that you were

21     not sure when he exactly went to Srebrenica.  This document answered your

22     question.  He went to Srebrenica by the end of July, right?

23        A.   I don't know when he left.  I can't make any assertions about

24     that, was it on the 12th or any other day.  The only thing I know is

25     that, number 1, on the 13th of July, an order arrived that all the


Page 8762

 1     employees who used to work in the Srebrenica public security station

 2     should head to Srebrenica so that a police station may be set up in order

 3     to protect the essential institutions and in view of the prevailing chaos

 4     in Srebrenica at the time.  Now, I'm not clear on what this is on this

 5     date.  All the police employees from Skelani went over there, and

 6     Zdravko, my colleague, was an encryption operator, so that at the time

 7     only one policeman stayed back in Skelani, and that was too few and we

 8     couldn't cover all the police duties.  So I'm not familiar with this

 9     particular situation.  I'm telling you this on the basis of what the

10     commander told us earlier and I'm talking about the company commander.

11     He was the commander of the Skelani police station.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

13             MR. COSTI:

14        Q.   So you're saying that on 13 of July there was another order for

15     former Srebrenica police to go to Srebrenica?  Although not even

16     Nenad Deronjic testified about that.  He testified that he ended his

17     shift and he went to Bratunac and he was told only in the afternoon that

18     he had to report to Srebrenica and not to the police station but as PJP.

19     So you're saying now that there is another order that we are not aware of

20     and not even Nenad Deronjic is aware of?

21        A.   I don't know if it was there or not.  I'm telling you what the

22     company commander told us, that a police station should be set up in

23     Srebrenica and that all those who before the war used to work in the

24     police station in Srebrenica had to head to Srebrenica.  So I can't claim

25     whether Nenad was in Srebrenica or in Bratunac on that critical date.  He


Page 8763

 1     was supposed to be in Srebrenica, as were other members of the pre-war

 2     Srebrenica police station.

 3        Q.   Isn't it true, though, that the only order we see is requiring

 4     Nenad Deronjic to be in Srebrenica on the 21st of July and it was issued

 5     on the 18 of July and you have it in front of you?  Yes or no?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I have an objection

 7     here.  This should probably be stated outside the presence of the

 8     witness, but this examination I think is very misleading for a reason

 9     that if I were to reveal it, it could potentially impact on the witness's

10     testimony.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has a question for you, Mr. Robinson --

13     no.  I'll ask Mr. Costi first.  Do you need that question?  Only order to

14     confirm with the witness?  If you are maintaining your position, we will

15     excuse the witness and hear the objection from Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. COSTI:  I would say that it is a fair question.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  So we need to go into private session

18     and then we need to draw the --

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  We don't have to go into private session but we have

21     to install the blinds -- draw the blinds.  I will explain to -- just a

22     second.

23             Sir, we have something to discuss with the parties in your

24     absence.  So if you could excuse yourself for some moments.  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]


Page 8764

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  Mr. President, I

 3     believe that there is an order issued by Dragomir Vasic on the

 4     12th of July, 1995, in which he orders that the police are to be

 5     assembled in Bratunac and taken to the Srebrenica -- to open a police

 6     station.  And so I think the Prosecution is well aware of that order.

 7     I don't -- I've been looking for it in e-court in the few minutes that

 8     I've had and I haven't been able to find the number, but I think

 9     Mr. Nicholls certainly knows that.  And anyway, so to put a question to

10     the witness that the only document requiring Nenad Deronjic to be in

11     Srebrenica was issued on 18 July is really misleading when there is an

12     order to staff the Srebrenica police station as of the afternoon of the

13     12th of July.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Costi?

15             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I believe Mr. Robinson

16     refers to P04935, and that this point 5 reads:

17             "Acting upon the President Karadzic's order which was conveyed to

18     us today over the phone, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP shall be

19     dispatched to Srebrenica with the task of securing facilities important

20     for the town."

21             And we dealt with it yesterday with Mr. Deronjic.  The reason why

22     I think my line of questioning is fair is because the first time an order

23     for the former police coming from Srebrenica to go to Srebrenica to the

24     SJB came only on the 18 of July.  On the basis of the series of documents

25     we saw yesterday, the Zvornik CJB asked the Srebrenica SJB which were the


Page 8765

 1     former employees, the Srebrenica SJB answered, and then the Zvornik CJB

 2     issued an order.

 3             Now, the witness recalls that Nenad Deronjic had to leave because

 4     he was a former police from Srebrenica.  So the basis of his recollection

 5     is that, like him, he's a former police from Srebrenica.  Now, the

 6     decision of sending former policemen from Srebrenica to Srebrenica and

 7     the order came only on the 18th.  Now, on the 12th, the 2nd PJP which

 8     might have included Nenad Deronjic as we discussed yesterday --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But this witness's evidence was, whether he saw this

10     decision or not, he heard from his company commander irrespective of the

11     date.

12             MR. COSTI:  But my point was --

13             JUDGE KWON:  So he -- was he in the position to tell you

14     definitely whether this is the only order he received or not.  So that's

15     the point of my question.

16             MR. COSTI:  Well, I was responding to Mr. Robinson's objections.

17     But to answer your question, Your Honour, he might not be in a position

18     to definitely answer, I agree, but I think it was fair to confront him

19     with the fact that the selection of former policemen from Srebrenica came

20     up later, so his recollection that happened on the 12th is wrong.

21     I didn't mean to have from this witness the ultimate answer as whether

22     this issue was discussed before.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Robinson, do you like to add

24     anything?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think the proposition that


Page 8766

 1     the Prosecution is putting to the witness is a false one so this -- they

 2     have evidence that on the 12th, the Srebrenica police station was staffed

 3     by the MUP and a number of police officers went there.  We can dispute

 4     whether or not Nenad Deronjic was one of them or not, but then to say

 5     that the only order that was issued to send policemen to Srebrenica was

 6     on the 18th is misleading.  That order may very well have been for the

 7     formal staffing of the police that was to take place on a permanent

 8     basis, but the reality is that on the 12th, that police station was

 9     staffed with people.  So I believe that the Prosecution's question is

10     putting a premise to the witness which could mislead him and which is not

11     correct.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree that the document you referred to is

13     Exhibit P4935?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, it may

16     be P2995.  My document dated the 12th of July.  P2995.  I do believe that

17     under that same number, we have a supplement by Deputy Kovac which

18     clearly says as of 12 July, the station is to be set up.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The document you referred to is a document

20     from the MUP, and the one referred to by Mr. Robinson was from Zvornik.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. COSTI:  Mr. President, if I can just ask one -- add one

23     comment.  I was going back to my question and there is no dispute that

24     there was an order on the 12th to establish the Srebrenica SJB but that

25     wasn't my question, nor I suggest that it was established later.  My


Page 8767

 1     question was:  Isn't it true, though, that the only order we see is

 2     require -- that requiring Nenad Deronjic to be in Srebrenica is requiring

 3     Nenad Deronjic to be in Srebrenica on the 21st and it was issued on the

 4     18 of July.  That was my question and this I don't believe is misleading

 5     at all.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, as far as you concentrate on the issue of

 7     selection of former policemen from Srebrenica, the Chamber sees no

 8     difficulty with it.

 9             Shall we bring in the witness?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting for the

11     witness, Your Excellencies, may I draw your attention to P2994, my order

12     dated the 11th of July.  P2995 is a document where the MUP is conveying

13     the order on the 12th of July.  So the sequence of events is as follows:

14     I issued an order on the 11th, and the MUP passed it over to its entire

15     area within its jurisdiction on the 12th.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The Chamber is aware of those sequence of

17     orders.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we lift the blinds first?  Thank you,

20     Mr. Harvey.

21             Yes, Mr. Costi, please continue.

22             MR. COSTI:

23        Q.   So I will repeat my question to you.  Isn't it true that the

24     first order to Nenad Deronjic to be deployed to the Srebrenica SJB as one

25     of the former police officers of the Srebrenica SJB before the war was


Page 8768

 1     issued on the 18th of July and required him to report to Srebrenica on

 2     21st of July?

 3        A.   At the time I was in Konjevic Polje, and it may have been the

 4     13th or the 14th because I left either on the 14th or the 15th, this

 5     paper was not available to me to read it, nor was it the case later when

 6     I went towards Skelani.  Nenad Deronjic, apart from being a member of the

 7     Srebrenica police station before the war, he was also a member of the

 8     Special Police Unit – was it the Second, the Third Company?  He was a

 9     younger person.  I only know that they were supposed to go up there.  Was

10     he there in the capacity of a member of the Special Police Unit?  Was it

11     in that capacity that he left?  I don't know.  I don't know the date itself

12     or time.  I only know that I didn't see him with my own eyes on the 13th at

13     Konjevic Polje.  Previously, before problems emerged around Srebrenica, I

14     know that he was manning the check-point over there on regular police duty,

15     and also in Bratunac.  So I can’t claim that he was in Srebrenica.  I can

16     only tell you that I didn't see him, I personally, on the 13th in Konjevic

17     Polje, where I was.  I do know about this.  I know that they were supposed to

18     be up there.  Now, was it in this capacity or in his capacity as a member

19     of a company within the Special Police Unit, I don't know.  I wasn't there.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, I'm just wondering if there is a

21     translation error and maybe it can be clarified.  On line 25, on page 34,

22     that is completely opposite of what he's been saying before.  I seem --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, sir, did you see Nenad Deronjic on the

24     13th at Konjevic Polje?

25           THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I state upon full responsibility


Page 8769

 1     I did not, not where I was, in the HQ of the 6th Police Company.  90 per

 2     cent of my time on that day I did spend on the premises of that HQ.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Where did you see him at all in those days?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the 13th, he worked at the

 5     check-point operated by the Bratunac public security station at the

 6     intersection in Konjevic Polje.  He worked there with other policemen.

 7     There were two or three of them normally, and they would be checking for

 8     illegal smuggling of goods but I'm telling you that this happened before

 9     the 13th.

10             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will ask the CLSS to hear that audio

11     recording but I will ask you again whether this is correct transcription

12     of what you said.  Our transcript says like this, I quote:

13             It's about Nenad Deronjic.

14             "Was he there in the capacity of a member of the Special Police

15     Company?  Was it in that capacity that he left?  I don't know.  I don't

16     know the date itself.  Was it the 13th or the 14th?  I only know that

17     I didn't see him in Skelani at all, whereas, as for the check-point at

18     Konjevic Polje" -- could you hear it out and then tell us what you really

19     said?  Please hear it out with care.

20             "Was it the 13th or the 14th?  I only know that I didn't see him

21     in Skelani at all, whereas, as for the check-point at Konjevic Polje, I

22     know that he was manning the check-point over there, and he was in

23     Bratunac.  So I can't claim that he was in Srebrenica.  I can only tell

24     you that I didn't see him.  I only saw him on the 13th at Konjevic Polje.

25     I do know about this.  I know that he was supposed to be up there.  Now,


Page 8770

 1     was it in this capacity or the capacity of his membership in the Special

 2     Police Company, I don't know.  I wasn't there."

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there is quite a few

 4     mistakes there.  Mention is made of, in that quotation, Skelani, in

 5     interpretation.  I didn't mention Skelani.  I was talking about

 6     Konjevic Polje.

 7             And then at one point it said that I saw him on the 13th, which

 8     I didn't say.  That was misinterpreted.

 9             I was able to see him only before the 13th, the 10th or the 11th,

10     before all these events.  I can't recall.  It was a long time ago, and

11     I could have seen him as a person manning the check-point.  As for the

12     13th and the subsequent days, I don't know where he was.  I didn't see

13     him.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes, Mr. Costi?

15             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I wonder whether this is a

16     good time for a break.

17             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer would you need, Mr. Costi?

18             MR. COSTI:  I would say about 20, 30 minutes.  I'm not sure how

19     much time left I have, to be honest.  I think I have 20 minutes and I

20     will do it in 20 minutes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  The Chamber will have a break for half

22     an hour and resume at 11.00 -- yes, Mr. Nicholls?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't want to delay the

24     break.  I just have to say that was, in my view, a completely

25     inappropriate intervention by Mr. Robinson.  It's one thing for


Page 8771

 1     Mr. Karadzic, who speaks both languages, to suggest a translation error,

 2     but for Mr. Robinson to say, "I think there may have been a translation

 3     error because now the witness is saying something different than he said

 4     before" is not appropriate.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I completely disagree.  The

 6     witness showed that there was a translation error.  What would be

 7     inappropriate is for the Prosecution to have taken advantage of an error

 8     like that and have the Chamber be relying on misinformation.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Besides, I did try to intervene but

10     I wasn't given an opportunity.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, because I noted it, I asked Mr. Robinson to

12     offer his view.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  But the Prosecution's point is not without

14     merit, and we would know why if we translated it into our own

15     jurisdictions.  This isn't a jury trial so it's not the same thing but it

16     would be better for the avoidance of doubt if these interpretation issues

17     came solely from Dr. Karadzic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will resume at five past 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Costi.

22             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Now, let's change topic.  In your interview that you gave to the

24     Prosecution in 2001, you said that your position as a communication

25     person was to stay inside the house in the communication room where the


Page 8772

 1     communication equipment was.  And you said that you rarely left the house

 2     and you would occasionally go to the check-point to get some water.

 3     Right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. COSTI:  Now, can we go into private session?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 8773

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             MR. COSTI:

 8        Q.   In your Blagojevic --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

10             MR. COSTI:  Thank you.

11        Q.   In your Blagojevic testimony you also described and said that the

12     window that was in the room wouldn't allow you to see what was happening

13     in the street.  Right?

14        A.   The vision was restricted because the house faced the road, which

15     led from the crossroads from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac.  On the

16     right-hand side, there was a larger building which had been partly

17     destroyed and from there or around -- rather, because of that you

18     couldn't see the check-point and what was happening there.  And from the

19     command to the check-point, the distance was about 200 metres, but I'm

20     not really sure.  You had to go to the main road and then you had to turn

21     right to reach the check-point at the crossroads of the roads leading

22     from Zvornik to Milici and the other leading from Konjevic Polje to

23     Bratunac.

24        Q.   And in fact, in your testimony -- or, rather, in your interview

25     with the OTP, there are a series of things that you said you couldn't


Page 8774

 1     see.  You were asked whether you noticed a concentration of policemen and

 2     troops at Konjevic Polje who arrived with buses and trucks, and you

 3     answer:

 4             "I don't know that, they could have been but I didn't see that."

 5             And later on, you were asked that other witness have told us that

 6     there was a lot of prisoner waiting for transportation, being guarded by

 7     soldier in the field here around Konjevic Polje, and you answered:

 8             "No, I don't know anything about that.  Maybe they were there but

 9     I didn't go to that part.  I didn't see them.  Maybe they were there.

10     Maybe they surrendered but I didn't see them."

11             And finally, your testimony in the Blagojevic case, at page 23,

12     you were asked the following:

13             "Now, as we understand it, at some point on the 13th,

14     General Mladic came by the area.  Do you recall seeing General Mladic and

15     his entourage?

16             "A.  I didn't see him.  Maybe the men who were at the check-point

17     or around the check-point at that time could have seen him, but not me.

18     I spent most of the time on the premises in the house I described and

19     I did not see him.  He might have passed through but I did not see him."

20             So my question for you is:  On the morning of the 13th, there was

21     nothing different.  Did you walk around or you stayed most of the time

22     inside the house?

23        A.   I spent most of the time in the house and around the house, but

24     mostly in the house.

25        Q.   So from where you were then in the house, you could not see what


Page 8775

 1     was happening in the warehouse at the crossroad, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   As you said, it was about 200 metres.  And from where you were,

 4     I take it, you could not see what was happening on the bank of the Jadar

 5     River either.  Right?

 6        A.   No.  I couldn't see because the Jadar River is far from us and

 7     there is no chance that I could have seen things going on there.

 8        Q.   Now, this Chamber heard testimony and took notice of adjudicated

 9     facts that 16 Bosnian Muslim men including one boy had been captured from

10     the column and transferred by bus from Konjevic Polje, from the

11     warehouse, to the Jadar River bank, and there the men got off the bus,

12     they were lined up and executed, and only one survived.  Now, do you know

13     is it true, isn't it, that that morning men were shot in a mass execution

14     at the Jadar River?

15        A.   I don't know that.

16        Q.   Now, you said that you were member of the Skelani SJB or, let's

17     say, attached to the Skelani SJB, right?

18        A.   I was a member of the Skelani SJB.  I was involved in

19     communications and cryptic protection.

20        Q.   Now, in your interview in 2001 at page 36, you said that you

21     heard later from the media that Muslims had been executed in Kravica.

22     You said:

23             "I don't know, as far as myself personally, I haven't seen

24     anything as for that, but as far as for rumours, some things were

25     mentioned, whether with Kravica or Luka, there was many of these people


Page 8776

 1     were executed there.  But who executed them, on what date, what time, I

 2     don't know that.  I don't know.  I haven't seen that personally."

 3             "Q.  Who told you about this?

 4             "A.  Lately, it was mentioned, even in the public.  It was

 5     broadcast publicly in the media.  And also when Alija Izetbegovic came to

 6     Srebrenica, to the car battery's factory, I think it was on that news."

 7             And a few lines below:

 8             "But I wasn't there, really, I don't know that.  I wasn't there

 9     and I don't know."

10             So my first question is, when did you first hear of what

11     happened, of the executions at the Kravica warehouse?

12        A.   When the cornerstone of the memorial centre in Potocari was

13     supposed to be laid out by Alija Izetbegovic, I don't know when that was

14     exactly.  At first in Srebrenica, there was only the OBN television.  And

15     when that gathering took place in Potocari, at the place of the current

16     memorial centre, Alija Izetbegovic held a speech, then there was a

17     reference to Kravica and it was only then that things started being

18     mentioned about Kravica, about people having been killed there.  I don't

19     know when that was, in 2000-something.  So when that cornerstone was

20     first laid in Potocari for the memorial centre and when he arrived,

21     I heard that on television, on the OBN channel.

22        Q.   So you heard of Kravica for the first time in 2000-something.

23     You know that a policeman from Skelani on the 13 of July,

24     Krsto Dragicevic, was killed in Kravica, in the Kravica warehouse?

25        A.   I learned that subsequently, when he had been killed.  At the


Page 8777

 1     time when that was happening, I didn't know.  He was a member of the

 2     company of the police of the Special Police from Sekovici.  Their platoon

 3     was up there in Skelani.  And as to what happened, where he was killed,

 4     how he was killed, I didn't know that in -- at the time.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On line 6, the witness said:

 8     "Later on, I learned where he had been killed," not "when he had been

 9     killed."  So it should be "where" instead of "when."

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. COSTI:

12        Q.   Now, you said "later on."  You mean around 2000, when you also

13     heard of the execution, or later on, meaning days later, month later,

14     later on, later what?

15        A.   A few days later, I heard from people in Konjevic Polje.  I was

16     the first to leave my company on the 14th, the 15th or the 16th.  I'm --

17     I don't know when exactly.  You will probably find it in the record.  The

18     chief of the communications centre of the public security centre in

19     Zvornik came.  We were in that command.  And he told me, and I don't want

20     to mention my name, he told me, You have to go to Skelani.  Why?  Because

21     there was nobody in the communication centre in Skelani in the police

22     station, there is just one policeman.  I don't know whether that was on

23     the 14th, the 15th or the 16th of July.  I don't know.  When I arrived in

24     Skelani, I learned that Krsto had been killed.  I also learned that he

25     had been buried in Skelani.  He hailed from somewhere around Skelani.


Page 8778

 1        Q.   So your testimony is that from the 15, 16 July 1995, until the

 2     2000, you did not get any information, more precise, about what happened

 3     to your colleague and to the Muslims at the Kravica warehouse?

 4        A.   On the 14th, the 15th or the 16th of July 1995, that's when

 5     I arrived in Skelani from Konjevic Polje, whereas my other colleagues

 6     remained there for a while.  So I don't know what had happened in

 7     Kravica.  I didn't know that.  And the distance between Kravica and

 8     Konjevic Polje is over 30 kilometres.  I don't know exactly how far it

 9     is, how far the two are from each other.  Kravica is approximately

10     halfway between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac.

11        Q.   We know Kravica and Konjevic Polje -- and Skelani are quite far

12     from each other, and one witness who testified here, Dane Katanic, you

13     probably know him, he testified that he learned right on the 13th that --

14     he heard of the killings at the Kravica warehouse, and he learned that --

15     not just that Krsto was killed but the Muslims were killed because one

16     policeman of their town was killed.

17             So you're saying you haven't heard about it for three days and

18     then you learned the Muslims were killed only five years later?  Is this

19     your testimony?

20        A.   Yes.  I didn't know that, if that had indeed happened, and I

21     didn't know because if people had done that, why do you think that

22     somebody would be talking about how they did it and what had happened?

23     So I didn't know.  And if I may --

24        Q.   Let me just ask you the question.  And when you learned that

25     Krsto was killed, what were you told?  In which circumstances was he


Page 8779

 1     killed?

 2        A.   I don't know, after such a long time.  I don't know how

 3     I learned, who told me.  After such a long time I can't remember.

 4     I really don't know that.

 5        Q.   I'm not sure about you -- I don't care about who told you but

 6     what were you told?

 7        A.   How shall I put it?  He was not our colleague.  He was a

 8     colleague but not from our police station.  He was a special.  They were

 9     on the other side of Skelani.  They were totally separated from us.  We

10     did not have any tasks in common.  Our policemen in Skelani were engaged

11     in civilian policing and they were specials.  They were a platoon of the

12     Special Police.

13        Q.   So you were told Krsto has been killed and then no information

14     about execution or killing of the Muslims, and then five years later,

15     when you saw Izetbegovic in Potocari for the memorial, in [indiscernible]

16     of memorial, you finally realised that a thousand Muslims were killed

17     that day, a few kilometres from Konjevic Polje in Kravica?

18        A.   I stand by the statement that I gave at the time.  At that time,

19     I didn't know what had happened in Kravica, if anything had happened at

20     all and how things had transpired.  Moreover, at the time of the

21     Milosevic trial, I was watching television and I heard of some things for

22     the first time after such a long time.  I didn't have a clue what had

23     been going on in the area.

24        Q.   I have two minutes left and I have just one last question.  Now,

25     today you seems to doubt about the date when you drove back from


Page 8780

 1     Konjevic Polje to Bratunac.  In the interview you gave to the

 2     Prosecution, you said:

 3             "On the 14th, it was -- I think it was on the 14th, in the

 4     morning hours, perhaps around 9.00, I went to Bratunac."

 5             So you did drive on the 14th back to Bratunac?  Do you stand by

 6     what you said to the Prosecution in 2001?

 7        A.   After such a long time, I can't tell you whether it was on the

 8     14th, the 15th or the 16th.  I don't know the exact date.  However, I

 9     know that I left before noon, upon the orders of the chief of the

10     communications centre from the public communications centre in Zvornik.

11     He told me that I had to go to Skelani, he drove me to the bridge in

12     Bratunac, and from there, I proceeded towards Skelani because allegedly

13     there was just one policeman there and there was nobody in the

14     communications centre.  All the other policemen had gone to Srebrenica,

15     to set up a police station in Srebrenica.  That was the reason why they

16     had all gone there.

17        Q.   So I take it from the way -- on the way back to Bratunac you

18     haven't seen what other witnesses, Defence witnesses, testified about in

19     this case, pile of bodies in front of the Kravica warehouse, traffic jam

20     of buses with soldiers in front of the Kravica warehouse, and later on,

21     trucks removing bodies and bringing them to Glogova, which is also on

22     your way to Bratunac?

23        A.   At that time, as I was passing through, I did not notice anybody.

24     And we just discussed the reasons for which I had to go to Skelani.  I

25     had not seen my family for a number of days, so I was reluctant to go


Page 8781

 1     there.  That's what we were talking about on the way to Bratunac.  I had

 2     not seen my family and my children for some 10 to 15 days.  They were in

 3     exile in Ljubovija.  He told me, You have to go, there's nobody else.

 4     That's what we were talking about.  A long story short, I had to go there

 5     because after my field mission I was supposed to be given a few days off

 6     to spend with my family, three or four days, so I did not pay attention

 7     to what was going on around me so that's what we mostly talked about.

 8             MR. COSTI:  I think my time is up, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any

10     re-examination?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions,

12     Your Excellency.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, could you please tell us how frequent

15     were burials on the Serbian side at that time?  How frequently killings

16     happened?

17        A.   Where do you mean, in Skelani?

18        Q.   In the entire area of Podrinje.

19        A.   There were a lot of burials at that time in that area, and one of

20     those burials took place on the 21st, the 22nd or the 23rd of June at

21     Kragivoda.  An ambush was set up for the members of our police station,

22     two of our -- two of the army members Ostoja Bozic and Dragisa Pavlovic

23     were on the way back in a van.  There was an ambush, they were killed and

24     massacred.  That's when that burial took place.  Perhaps on the 23rd,

25     24th or 25th of July.  I believe it was on the 23rd of June was when that


Page 8782

 1     ambush happened.

 2        Q.   And between the 23rd of June and the 13th of July, were there any

 3     casualties on the Serbian side at the hands of the locals?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

 5             MR. COSTI:  I'm sorry, I don't know where this line of

 6     questioning is going, but as it stands now, it's not an issue that was

 7     arisen -- rise during the cross.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I just wanted to

10     see whether it was the wonder of all wonders that Krsto was killed.  Was

11     that a striking event or whether that was an everyday occurrence.  I have

12     to leave this topic now that -- after I've been asked to provide an

13     explanation myself.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please move on, then.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Witness, did you ever guard prisoners as a guard?  Did you ever

17     do that and when?

18        A.   I was never a guard.  And I guarantee that.  I was not a

19     policeman, although that is also mentioned at places.  From the

20     1st of January, 1989, I was involved in communications and encryption.

21     I was never a guard.  I was never a policeman.  When I served in the JNA

22     I was also a communications man, when I served in the army in 1978 and

23     1979.

24        Q.   Witness, thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Karadzic.


Page 8783

 1             Mr. Witness, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

 2     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 3     it.  Now you are free to go.

 4             But we'll have a short break to change the setting.  I think five

 5     minutes would do.  We'll have a break for five minutes, and resume at

 6     20 to 12.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 11.34 a.m.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10                           --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

12     please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  MIRKO PERIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Peric.  Please be seated and make

18     yourself comfortable.

19             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Peric, I must draw your

20     attention to a certain rule that we have here at the Tribunal, that is

21     Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any question

22     from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges, if you

23     believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In

24     this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to

25     an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that


Page 8784

 1     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 2     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

 3     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 4     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

 5     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony, compelled

 6     in such circumstances, would not be used in any case that might be laid

 7     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

 8     testimony.

 9             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Peric?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

13                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Peric.

15        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Can we please take care to make pauses between questions and

17     answers and to speak as slowly as possible so that everything can be

18     recorded.

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to move

21     closer to the microphone.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Peric, could you come closer to the microphone

23     so that the interpreters could hear you well?  Thank you.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.


Page 8785

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Peric, did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That was quite fast.  Please pause a little bit longer.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 6     1D9070 in e-court?

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On the screen in front of you, can you see that statement of

 9     yours?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed the statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

14     last page so that he can identify his signature?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is this your signature?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately and faithfully reflect

19     what you told the Defence team?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

22     live, would your answers basically be the same as the ones contained in

23     the statement?

24        A.   Yes, they would be completely the same.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 8786

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this statement

 2     pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Costi?

 4             MR. COSTI:  No, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3772, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm going now to read a

 9     summary of Mr. Mirko Peric's statement in English.

10             [In English] Mirko Peric refutes the testimony of Prosecution

11     Witness KDZ065 in several respects.  He states that he was a police

12     officer working at a check-point in Konjevic Polje on 13th of July, 1995,

13     but never escorted any prisoner to a warehouse, never observed prisoners

14     being beaten, never heard of any prisoners being transported by a woman

15     bus driver to the bank of the Jadar River, and never heard of any

16     prisoners being executed in the area.

17             Mirko Peric states that he did not see Nenad Deronjic in

18     Konjevic Polje on 13th of July, 1995, as claimed by the Prosecution

19     Witness KDZ065.  Mirko Peric states that while working at the check-point

20     at Konjevic Polje, he was looking at all the drivers of the buses as they

21     were passing by.  He never saw or heard of any woman bus driver working

22     at that time as claimed by Prosecution Witness KDZ065.  That would have

23     been very unusual and he would have noticed it if it were true.

24             Thank you.  At this point, I have no questions for Mr. Peric.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.


Page 8787

 1             Mr. Peric, as you have noted, your evidence-in-chief in this case

 2     has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written witness

 3     statement, in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you'll be

 4     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do

 5     you understand that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Costi?

 8             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Costi:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Peric.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   In your statement, at paragraph 13, you said that you were sent

13     to Konjevic Polje on the 10th or the 11th of July, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you said that you remained there for three days, right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So you went back to Bratunac on the 13th or the 14th, right?

18        A.   I am not 100 per cent sure about the date.  I spent there three

19     or four days in that period, so let's say between the 9th and then 10th,

20     11th or 12th, but I cannot give you the exact date.

21        Q.   Now, did you go to the warehouse and intersection of the roads on

22     the 13th of July?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You also said that you left to attend the funeral of your

25     mother-in-law, if I'm not mistaken.  Do you recall which day was it?


Page 8788

 1        A.   I believe it was the 9th.

 2        Q.   So your statement is inaccurate when you said that you went to

 3     Konjevic Polje either the 10th or the 11th, as you said now, so you were

 4     in Konjevic Polje before, 9, 10, 11, one of these days?

 5        A.   I told you I cannot give you the exact dates.  Anyway, I was in

 6     Konjevic Polje in those days.

 7        Q.   And you said that in those days, you did not see Nenad Deronjic,

 8     and I read you paragraph 20 of your statement:

 9             "During my stay in Konjevic Polje, I did not see Dragisa Zekic

10     outside the house where our communications were.  As far as I know, he

11     was not allowed to leave the house.  And during that time I also did not

12     see Nenad Deronjic in Konjevic Polje."

13             So you haven't seen Nenad Deronjic in those days, right?

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think so.  We can --

16             MR. COSTI:  I don't think it's necessary because that discussion

17     was in private session, so --

18        Q.   Now, Nenad Deronjic testified that he was in Konjevic Polje in

19     fact on the 10th, 11th -- I'm sorry?

20             I'm sorry, I think the answer to my prior question did not go

21     into the record.  I asked whether he confirmed his statement --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, correct, because of Mr. Karadzic's

23     intervention.  You didn't see Nenad Deronjic in those days?  What was

24     your answer, Mr. Peric?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain that in those days


Page 8789

 1     I did not see Nenad Deronjic in Konjevic Polje.

 2             MR. COSTI:  Very well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's --

 4             MR. COSTI:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Out of an abundance of caution, we will redact your

 6     intervention, Mr. Karadzic.  Let's continue.

 7             MR. COSTI:

 8        Q.   So my next point was that Nenad Deronjic testified here that he

 9     was indeed in Konjevic Polje on the 10th, on the 11th, and then he left

10     on the morning on the 12th.  So you and Nenad Deronjic were in

11     Konjevic Polje at the same time for two or three days and you didn't see

12     each other, right?

13        A.   I can confirm that during the three or four days that I spent in

14     Konjevic Polje was not at the check-point where I was working [as

15     interpreted].

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 8790

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17        Q.   KW558 expressly recalled four persons walking towards the house

18     and these four persons were you, Dusko Neskovic, Hasan Salihovic, and

19     Resid Sinanovic.  So his recollection is wrong, in your testimony?

20        A.   This Neskovic person, who is that?  I don't know him.  I don't

21     know him at all.

22        Q.   Well, in KW558 testimony, you and Neskovic were together and were

23     bringing these two prisoners to the house.

24        A.   No.  I can confirm that it was I who took Sinanovic to that

25     building.  I did alone.  There was no one else with me.


Page 8791

 1        Q.   Now, in your testimony --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I have one thing to clarify.  Could

 3     we ask the witness to excuse himself for a moment?

 4             Yes, our usher will escort you to outside the courtroom for a

 5     moment.

 6             Could the Chamber move into private session, briefly.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 8792

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just while we are waiting for the

 6     witness, on a scheduling issue since this is the only witness we have for

 7     today I would suggest that we move forward as much as possible to

 8     complete his testimony without taking our lunch break if we are able to

 9     do that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  How long do you think you need?

11             MR. COSTI:  I think I've been given 45 minutes but I will try,

12     I'm not sure how many minutes I've already used but I will try to make it

13     in a shorter time.

14             JUDGE KWON:  One of the judicial members have a meeting at 12.30,

15     unless the whole proceedings could be concluded by 12.30, we need to go

16     on, as originally planned.

17             MR. COSTI:  I'll do my best.

18             JUDGE KWON:  No problem.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Peric.

21             Yes, we will continue.

22             MR. COSTI:

23        Q.   So I understand that your testimony at paragraph 20, that I was

24     about to talk about, you said that when you entered the room, "I saw that

25     there were some other Muslims inside."  So is it correct that apart from


Page 8793

 1     Resid that you were bringing, you saw other Muslims inside the room,

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, there were two of them.

 4        Q.   Now, the Chamber has heard the testimony of one of these Muslim

 5     who was detained in that house, and he saw you in the house.  There is a

 6     problem with the --

 7        A.   The volume is too low.  Now it's all right.  It's all right.

 8        Q.   Can you hear me now?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   I was saying the Chamber heard the testimony of one of these

11     detainees.  He testified that he saw you in the house, that you went to

12     the room later on, you took four detainees, you walked them to the

13     warehouse at the intersection, and that you were present at the warehouse

14     when the prisoners were forced to undress and while they were beaten up.

15             I see that in your statement you reject most of these allegation,

16     but I'm asking you again, did you go to the house, pick four of these

17     detainees, brought them to the warehouse and left them there?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   All right.  So let's go to see what you said about KDZ065's

20     testimony in your statement.  At paragraph 31 you said:

21             "Witness KDZ065 testified" -- sorry, I need to find the -- yeah,

22     "testified that after being beaten the prisoners were told to put on

23     their clothes, they were then led into a bus driven by a blond female

24     driver.  That part isn't true.  I was working at the check-point in

25     Konjevic Polje.  And was looking at all the drivers of the buses as they


Page 8794

 1     were passing by.  I never saw or heard of any woman bus driver working at

 2     that time.  That would have been very unusual."

 3             Now, when you gave a statement to the Prosecution -- I'm sorry,

 4     to the Republika Srpska MUP, in August 2003, you were asked questions

 5     about buses passing by Konjevic Polje.  And I'll read some of the

 6     question and answer that you gave.

 7             "Q.  While you were at the check-point in Konjevic Polje, were

 8     buses and trucks with persons of Muslim nationality arriving from the

 9     direction of Bratunac?  And where did they go from there?

10             "A.  In reply to your question, I can state that trucks and buses

11     did arrive from the direction of Bratunac, they were loaded with people,

12     but I cannot say what their nationality was because I didn't know.  They

13     went on towards Zvornik, Vlasenica, and they returned empty from that

14     direction.

15             "Q.  Do you know the number of these trucks and buses that passed

16     through Konjevic Polje?

17             "A.  I cannot answer because I did not count them.

18             "Q.  Do you know how -- who owned the trucks and buses?

19             "A.  The buses and trucks belonged to various companies, but to

20     be honest, I did not read their names."

21             Now, at paragraph 16 of your statement, you also said that you

22     were told that Muslims from Potocari were being transported and that "we

23     should not stop the vehicles in order not to create traffic jams."

24             So my question for you is this:  You did not read the names on

25     the buses, you did not count the buses, you could not say whether people


Page 8795

 1     on the buses were Muslims, they were Serbs, they were refugees or not --

 2     sorry, strike the last sentence.  You did not talk about refugees.

 3     Muslims or Serbs.  And in fact were you ordered not to stop the buses

 4     because you didn't -- you were shouldn't -- you weren't supposed to

 5     control or to create a traffic jam.

 6             So my question to you is your testimony that you really look at

 7     all the drivers and you're absolutely positive that there was no single

 8     woman driving a bus?

 9        A.   This is an intersection that has three directions, Milici,

10     Zvornik, Bratunac.  I and my colleague in police uniform were standing at

11     the intersection regulating the traffic in order to prevent traffic jams,

12     and they probably knew where they were loading the passengers and where

13     they were taking them.  We had nothing to do with that.  As for the

14     statement that I didn't know what nationality the passengers were, of

15     course it makes sense because I never stopped them and never inquired

16     about their ethnicities, therefore I didn't [as interpreted] know if they

17     were Muslims.  And I can guarantee you that if you're standing on the

18     road and all the buses are coming your way, you just cannot avoid

19     noticing who the driver is and I never noticed a female driver.

20        Q.   Very well.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 10, the witness said,

24     "I didn't check or investigate their ethnicity but I did know that they

25     were Muslims."  It was erroneously recorded as witness saying, "I didn't


Page 8796

 1     know that they were Muslims."

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Do you confirm that, Mr. Peric?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. COSTI:

 5        Q.   Because in your statement to the RS MUP, you actually said that

 6     you did not know whether they were Muslim, right?

 7        A.   Well, it was a play of words maybe at the time.  I didn't know,

 8     I didn't ask, so I didn't know.  I could assume that they were Muslims.

 9     They were being taken to Bratunac and --

10        Q.   So I'm a bit confused now.  Did you know or you did not know

11     whether people on those buses were Muslim?

12        A.   I knew that.  It was a play of words.  I didn't ask them, Are you

13     Muslims or not?  But I knew that they were Muslims in the truck.

14        Q.   Now, at paragraph 30 of your statement, you also said this:

15             "Witness KDZ065 testified that upon his arrival at the warehouse,

16     he was beaten by uniformed Serbs and forced to undress with other

17     prisoners.  He claims that there were 16 prisoners there in total and

18     that they were beaten by the uniformed Serbs including Nenad Deronjic.

19     That part is untrue.  I never brought him to the warehouse."

20             And at 31, you continue and you said:

21             "After being beaten, the prisoners" -- you said that it's untrue

22     what KDZ065 said which is after being beaten, the prisoners were told to

23     put on their clothes.

24             Now I asked you as a first or second question whether you ever

25     went to the warehouse in these days, and you said no.  So my question to


Page 8797

 1     you now is:  What is your basis for saying that KDZ065 is lying when he's

 2     talking about events that took place in the warehouse where you said you

 3     did not go?  How do you know?

 4        A.   I didn't state that I saw these people, let alone that

 5     I approached them, that I saw these people being taken away or undressed.

 6     I'm stating that no such thing happened.

 7        Q.   And my question is exactly this:  How do you know that these

 8     things did not happen in the warehouse where you said you never went?

 9        A.   I am stating that I did not see that, depending again what

10     warehouse we are talking about.  I have no idea what your question is

11     about.  You're asking me about a warehouse.  What warehouse?

12        Q.   Mr. Peric, this is probably the way the statement is formulated.

13     You --

14             JUDGE KWON:  But at the end of each paragraph, he states the

15     reason why he believes some part of that evidence is untrue.  So if you

16     want to ask the question, you need to read out the whole paragraph.

17             MR. COSTI:  I thought I did, but paragraph 30 the end is:

18     "I never brought him in a warehouse."

19        Q.   So you said you never brought KDZ065 in the warehouse, right?

20        A.   Except for Resid Sinanovic, I never took in anyone.

21        Q.   Yes.  And you also said that you never went to the warehouse,

22     right?

23        A.   Right.  Except for that once when I took Resid over.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last thing he said

25     about the warehouse.


Page 8798

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat what you said just now, Mr. Peric?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you take into consideration --

 3     or if you consider that house where I took Resid Sinanovic to be a

 4     warehouse, then that would be it.  But aside from that case, I had never

 5     brought in anyone.

 6             MR. COSTI:

 7        Q.   All right.  I probably should clarify because in the translation

 8     we got a little bit lost.

 9             At paragraph 30, you are talking about events --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Let's -- do you have your witness statement with

11     you, Mr. Peric?  Can you see paragraph 30 in front of you?  Yes.  Let's

12     proceed.

13             MR. COSTI:

14        Q.   Now, in paragraph 30, and now we are talking about, I believe

15     this is your statement, you're talking about the warehouse at

16     intersection of the roads.  Now, KDZ065 said that in the warehouse, they

17     were beaten up and forced to undress.  He also testified that

18     16 prisoners were in the warehouse and they were beaten up, including

19     Nenad Deronjic.  Now, you said in your statement that this allegation is

20     false.  And my question to you is:  How do you know, since you've never

21     been into the warehouse?  You weren't there.  You could not see what was

22     happening in there, right?

23        A.   We are talking about Konjevic Polje here.  Is that what your

24     witness was talking about, about Konjevic Polje or some other warehouse?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that -- the


Page 8799

 1     distinguished Mr. Costi did not abide by the guidance given by His Honour

 2     the Judge to read the entire paragraph 30.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No, I asked the witness to read out this

 4     paragraph 30.  Did you read your paragraph -- statement, in particular

 5     paragraph 30?  And you do not realise what warehouse we are talking about

 6     in your statement?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what warehouse that

 8     is.

 9             MR. COSTI:

10        Q.   But you signed this statement?

11        A.   I'm telling you again, I wasn't aware of a warehouse being there,

12     in the vicinity of the check-point where I worked.  However, in the

13     immediate vicinity of the check-point, I know that there weren't any

14     warehouses.

15        Q.   So all the paragraph of your statement dealing with events that

16     took place in a warehouse close to the check-point, in those paragraph,

17     and I think we are talking about paragraph 30, paragraph 31 in part, the

18     first line is talking about beating the prisoners and it's still talking

19     events occurring in the warehouse, you're saying that you're not sure

20     whether paragraph 30 and 31 are talking about a warehouse in

21     Konjevic Polje or somewhere else because there was no warehouse in

22     Konjevic Polje at all?

23        A.   Yes.  I did not see that there was a warehouse in Konjevic Polje.

24     As far as I was able to see from the check-point.  I wasn't allowed to

25     leave the check-point to explore the area, but in the area that was


Page 8800

 1     immediately around the check-point, I did not observe any warehouses.

 2        Q.   So if KDZ065 talks about events taking place in a warehouse in

 3     Konjevic Polje, essentially your testimony is these are all lies because

 4     there was no warehouse?  Correct?

 5        A.   Correct.  As far as I was able to observe, I did not see a

 6     warehouse being there, and I'm telling you from where I was, and that was

 7     the check-point.  So it is likely that the person isn't telling the

 8     truth.

 9        Q.   I see.  Now, at paragraph 32, you also said that:

10             "Witness KDZ065 testify -- testified that prisoners were then

11     driven to the banks of the Jadar River where they were executed by four

12     men including Nenad Deronjic.  That part is untrue.  I never heard of

13     anyone being executed by the Jadar River on 13 of July, 1995."

14             My question to you is, first, did you ever go to the banks of the

15     Jadar River on 13 of July, Jadar River?

16        A.   I did not go to the bank of the Jadar River at all.  I did not

17     have any need for it and I wasn't able to either.  At no point in time

18     during the three days I was there.

19        Q.   So your basis for saying that KDZ [sic] is a liar or is lying on

20     this point is that you never heard of it, not that you were there and you

21     could exclude that prisoners were executed there?

22        A.   Yes.  I did not hear that someone was executed in the vicinity of

23     the check-point, especially not that I don't know how many of them were

24     killed, as this witness of yours seems to state.

25             MR. COSTI:  Your Honours, maybe this is a good time for the


Page 8801

 1     break.  Obviously we didn't make it to finish by now.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Give me a minute.

 3             MR. COSTI:  Sure.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume

 5     at quarter past 1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.33 p.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Costi.

 9             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Sir, I would like to go back very quickly to a discussion we were

11     having a few minutes ago before the break.  Now, you said at page 65,

12     line 14:

13             "I did not see that there was a warehouse in Konjevic Polje, as

14     far as I was able to see from the check-point.  I wasn't allowed to leave

15     the check-point to explore the area, but in the area that was immediately

16     around the check-point I did not observe any warehouse."

17             MR. COSTI:  Can we please have P04308, at page 44.

18        Q.   Now, I'm going to show you three pictures of what I called a

19     warehouse at the intersection.  First of all, this picture, I'm talking

20     about the building that is in the blue circle.  Now, if you can go to

21     page 45, this is the same building I was talking about here on the left

22     side from a different perspective.  Now, I show you another picture and

23     then I ask you the question, which is P00266.  As you will see, the next

24     one is the same aerial picture that you've just seen but with a red

25     circle which is the one marked by the witness who was brought there on


Page 8802

 1     the 13 of July, 1995.

 2             MR. COSTI:  And for the record, KDZ065 discussed this picture at

 3     P00336, pages 78 to 83.

 4        Q.   So, first of all, this is the intersection at Konjevic Polje,

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, do you recall that building that is marked and circled with

 8     a red pen?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So now, this is the building I referred to and KDZ065 referred to

11     when he's talking about a warehouse.  So my question for you is:  Did you

12     go to that building during those days?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   So you never went to that building in these three days?

15        A.   While I was at that check-point, I did not enter that building.

16        Q.   Thanks.  Thank you.  Now, let's move to another topic.  In

17     May 1992, you were part of the Bratunac SJB, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in your statement at paragraph 11, you discuss the events

20     that took place in Glogova on the 9 of May and you -- you said:

21             "Several days after this incident, we heard that there had also

22     been an armed clash in Glogova where our TO tried to disarm some Muslim

23     extremists who were refusing to surrender their weapons voluntarily.

24     Allegedly, some people were killed in the fighting.  I just know that we

25     from the police did not take part in this operation either."


Page 8803

 1             So I have two questions here.  My first question is:  Do you

 2     maintain that the police did not take part to the operation in Glogova on

 3     the 9th of May, 1992?

 4        A.   I did not participate, and based on the stories of the colleagues

 5     who talked about it, nobody from the police took part in it.  I wasn't in

 6     charge of deciding who was to go or not to go or whether they should go

 7     or not.  I myself was not involved.

 8        Q.   Now, let me tell you what one person who actually participate to

 9     that operation said.  And it's the statement of Milenko Katanic at P04374

10     at paragraph 35.  What he said, he said that:

11             "The police, the public security station, also had their armed

12     forces.  They were also deployed and they -- and they all had their

13     assignment."

14             So I'm asking it again, you might not have taken part to this

15     operation but do you agree that the police took part to that operation?

16        A.   I cannot agree because I wasn't the one to make up the roster or

17     to dispatch people there.  According to the stories, the police did not

18     participate in this.  It was the Territorial Defence.  That's what

19     I heard.  And it was the volunteers and the army.  That's what I heard.

20     I don't know if the police participated or not.

21        Q.   Now, talking about these stories that you heard, you said that

22     allegedly some people got killed during the fighting.  Is this all you

23     know about what happened in Glogova?

24        A.   I myself am the one who knows least about Glogova.  I was only

25     able to hear things about it.  I didn't know anything about it.  I don't


Page 8804

 1     even know if it happened.  I am really not aware of it.

 2        Q.   Now, this Chamber heard the testimony of one person from Glogova,

 3     Musan Talovic, his statement is P03188, and he testified before the

 4     Chamber and he told what happened.  He described that he was captured, he

 5     was brought to the bank of a river with 21 men and one boy, and that the

 6     TOs executed the order to kill them and shot at all these men.  He alone

 7     survived this execution.  Not the others.

 8             Now, my question is:  Do you agree that the goal of the operation

 9     was to expel the Muslim population from the village of Glogova?  Right?

10        A.   I cannot assert either way.  Either that it was the case or not

11     the case.  I was not informed about these events.  I don't even know when

12     that happened in Glogova, when it was being mopped up or cleansed.  I

13     didn't know and I don't know anything about it.

14        Q.   All right.  Let me now move to Bratunac, then.  You said in your

15     statement that in April 1992, fewer and fewer Muslims were there, that

16     most of the Muslim left Bratunac on their own accord an in their own

17     vehicles, but there were also those who left by bus in an organised

18     manner.  And just to make clear, is it your testimony that Muslims left

19     Bratunac in April 1992 because they decided to leave?  They did it

20     voluntarily?

21        A.   Well, it is probable that those were left of their own will.

22     They had their own vehicles and they left in their own vehicles.

23        Q.   Then you agree that others left not voluntarily?

24        A.   Well, I can confirm this just as much as I can confirm your

25     statement that there were those who left voluntarily.  I told you that I


Page 8805

 1     didn't know what their reasons were.  I cannot claim that they left

 2     voluntarily or that they did not because I wasn't there.  Quite a few

 3     things have to do with what I heard.

 4        Q.   Now, let's talk about May, still in Bratunac.  You said that:

 5             "After the incident in Hranca and Glogova, Muslims started

 6     leaving Bratunac in large numbers, so that there was a general chaos in

 7     the town until transportation was organised.  Our patrols were often sent

 8     with the military police to escort these buses and trucks which drove to

 9     Kladanj and Tuzla."

10             Do you agree with me that these people had no alternative but

11     leaving and they were forced to leave the town?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the exact reference?

13     Is it the incident at Hranca and Glogova not Kravica and Glogova.

14     Because in that case, the interpretation wasn't correct.  Is that

15     paragraph 12?

16             MR. COSTI:  It is paragraph 12.  And I meant -- and in

17     paragraph 12 to talk about Hranca and Glogova.  I'm not sure whether the

18     interpretation said Kravica but I meant Hranca.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was interpreted to us, yes, yes,

20     there was an error.

21             MR. COSTI:

22        Q.   So I'm asking you again, you said the Muslims started leaving

23     Bratunac in large numbers, I take it at the beginning of May, after

24     Hranca and Glogova.  There was general chaos and transportation was

25     organised, our patrols were often sent to escort these buses and trucks.


Page 8806

 1             Now, my question is:  Do you agree that these people had no

 2     alternative but leaving?  They were forced to leave?  Right?

 3        A.   I don't know what to answer to that question.  I didn't

 4     participate in that.  I don't know if they were forced or they left of

 5     their own free will.

 6        Q.   Let me help you here by telling you what a witness said in this

 7     Chamber.  As KDZ605, he described that he was captured, brought to

 8     Bratunac with his family, he was detained both at the stadium, with

 9     thousand of others, and then was also brought to the Vuk Karadzic school.

10     He was mistreated for days, separated from his family, and finally

11     deported to the Muslim-held territories.  Now, the testimony of this

12     witness helps you to tell me whether you think it was voluntarily or not,

13     the departure of the Muslims from Bratunac in May 1992?

14        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you if it was voluntary or not.  Some

15     left voluntarily, others went on buses.  That's at least what I heard.  I

16     don't know how they left.  I didn't have any contact with them.

17        Q.   But you were a police in town in those days, right?

18        A.   A number of them were.  I was in a Serbian village called Rakovac

19     in the direction of Voljevica.  That's where I was.  I wasn't in

20     Bratunac.  I spent more time in these Serb villages such as Rakovac,

21     Pobrdje, and I don't know.

22        Q.   Very well.

23             MR. COSTI:  I don't have any further questions, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination,

25     Mr. Karadzic?


Page 8807

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, two or three

 2     questions.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Peric, can you tell us when the departure of

 5     the population of Bratunac started and people of which ethnicity were

 6     leaving?

 7        A.   I can't give you any dates, but when the things started brewing,

 8     there were also Serbs who were leaving Bratunac because they were afraid,

 9     I suppose, but the Muslims were leaving as well.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You make reference to this in paragraph 6.  Can you

11     tell us whether the Serbs were forced to leave by the authorities?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Why did they leave?

14        A.   They left of their own accord.

15        Q.   And as for Muslims, in the period before May, when the relations

16     deteriorated, were they forced out by the authorities?  Did you establish

17     that the authorities were actively involved in forcing the people out?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the answer due to

19     overlapping.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Did you answer the question?  Interpreters were not

21     able to hear you because of the overlapping.  Could you repeat your

22     answer, Mr. Peric?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really wasn't acquainted with

24     these cases.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 8808

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone ask you to expel anyone from Bratunac?

 2     And I mean you as the police.

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   What is missing in the question was if anyone from the authority

 5     asked you as the police to expel people, and I didn't mean only

 6     authorities.  Did anyone ask that of you?

 7        A.   The police did not expel anyone and nobody asked us to do

 8     anything in that respect.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Peric.  I have no further questions for you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, then, Mr. Peric.

11     On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to

12     give it.  You are now free to go.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE KWON:  In the circumstances, we do not have any witnesses

16     until Friday morning?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Unless there is anything to raise -- yes, Mr. Costi?

19             MR. COSTI:  Yes, Your Honour, if we could go to private session,

20     I would give you the references that we were discussing this morning

21     during the testimony of --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Why in private session?

23             MR. COSTI:  That's a good question.  And probably I can give you

24     the answer in public session.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.


Page 8809

 1             MR. COSTI:  It was T 10918 and transcript 10919 of the hearing on

 2     9 of May in the Mladic case, 2013.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             The hearing is adjourned -- oh, yes, Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am an amateur but I wonder

 6     how do I treat the references that pertain to other cases that I was not

 7     a party to?  I would have preferred to have seen this on our screens.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Consult with Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. COSTI:  If it might help, the Defence has access to the

10     transcript and they were notified by the Registry on the 14th of June,

11     2013.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will resume on Friday at 9.00.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of July,

15                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.

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