1 Wednesday, 3 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. There was a preliminary
10 matter to be raised by the Defence.
11 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour. I rise in relation to the witness
12 I handled last week, RM279. On 28th June, 2013, the Prosecution's
13 65 ter --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters. Thank
15 you very much.
16 MR. IVETIC: 65 ter number 18589 was tendered and marked as
17 D316 MFI pending upload of an English translation. The translation has
18 been uploaded by the Prosecution as doc ID number 0320-2965-ET, and we
19 thus would ask that the Registrar attach that document to D316 MFI and
20 that the joint document then becomes an exhibit. Thank you,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Since the translation comes from the Prosecution I
23 take it that there's no problem with that.
24 Madam Registrar, you are hereby requested or instructed to attach
25 the English translation to D316, and D316 is admit into evidence.
1 Any other matter, Mr. Ivetic?
2 MR. IVETIC: None from the Defence, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turned for a minute in closed session in
4 order to allow the witness to come in and to preserve the protective
6 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 Before you will continue, Mr. McCloskey, I would like to remind
16 you, Mr. Erdemovic, that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
17 you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that is that you'll
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: DRAZEN ERDEMOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning. Good
23 morning everyone.
24 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Witness. I would like to take you and show you a
1 short video-clip, something that you've seen before and that was not very
2 clear in the -- in the record that we have introduced for you. It is
3 P1147, the trial video V000-9265, and we should be starting from
4 20 minutes and go 15 seconds to 20:15, and then I'll ask you a question
5 or two.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Okay. What I want to ask you about is this fellow that we see on
9 the far right of the screen that is holding his helmet, which I think we
10 should all recall we saw a flash of blue on that helmet, and he gets on
11 the APCs a little bit later with clearly the blue helmet on his head.
12 Do you know who that person is holding that helmet?
13 A. This is a man from my unit. His nickname is Cico. I don't know
14 his real name.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now I would like to go to something else
16 that you have seen. This time I think the video still we can do it.
17 It's -- should be P1148 and e-court page 53. And you will recall that
18 you have mentioned many times about Pelemis ordering the murder of a man
19 in the centre of town in Srebrenica, and your -- again you have testified
20 about this before, but it is not in our current record.
21 Do you recall seeing the video-clip that goes along with this
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And from that video-clip and this still have you been able to
25 identify, well, whether this body is related to the Pelemis order?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what is it about what you've seen in this -- in this video
3 and in this still that leads you to believe -- make you any conclusion
4 about this body and the person that was killed in -- based on Pelemis's
6 A. When we came to Srebrenica town itself, I concluded that was the
7 centre of town in Srebrenica. That person came out of a building and
8 said that he was not in the army, that he had nothing against Serbs and
9 so on, and then the rest of the units came down to the town of Srebrenica
10 from the surrounding mountains, and they began to maltreat him, beat him,
11 and then Pelemis ordered Zoran, whose nickname is Maric, to kill that
13 Q. And do you think this man in this photo is the man that you saw
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And why do you -- how can you conclude that?
17 A. In this footage that you showed me, I could see the building, the
18 buildings that were in the centre of town, the mosque was there, and how
19 that person was wearing a green jacket and jeans, so I concluded on the
20 basis of those things that that was the place where this happened.
21 Q. And the person that you say was wearing jeans and a -- and a
22 jacket, do you see similar garments on this person in this video and this
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I'm told there is a problem with
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear you, Mr. Ivetic. Could it be that
3 there's voice distortion, that we plugged in in the right --
4 MR. IVETIC: I think the problem is with the translation of the
5 English, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Translation of the English. Is Mr. Mladic on the
7 right channel? I'll switch for a second to the -- I hear B/C/S on
8 channel 6. Volume, right channel? I'm still hearing myself translated
9 into B/C/S. Anyway to use another socket?
10 You now can hear the B/C/S translation? I see that Mr. Mladic is
11 nodding yes.
12 Let's continue.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can please take this image down and go to
14 another topic.
15 Q. And, sir, you say on -- I believe it's page 854 of your Rule 61
16 hearing that shortly after the events at this farm you were in a bar and
17 were shot by a member of your unit and that you had to seek medical
18 treatment in -- in Bijeljina that didn't -- was not effective and that
19 someone helped you in further medical treatment. Can you tell us who
20 that person was that helped you get further medical treatment?
21 A. Deputy commander of our unit, Kremenovic.
22 Q. And did you -- where did you go to get that further medical
24 A. To the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, to the military hospital,
25 the VMA.
1 Q. And did you get an official pass that helped you cross over into
2 the FRY?
3 A. Yes. Everyone who was in the army had to have a pass in order to
4 be able to cross from Republika Srpska to the Federal
5 Republic of Yugoslavia.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have 65 ter 18127 on the board.
7 Q. So we now see this document dated in February, the 11th, 1996, by
8 General Mladic, and we see your name in number 1. Is this the pass you
9 were talking about?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you know what those other people under you are? Do you
12 know who those people are?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And at some point around this time did you ever get issued with
15 a -- a fake ID?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where did you go to get that fake ID?
18 A. To the Bijeljina MUP.
19 Q. And did you go with any other members of your unit that also got
20 fake IDs?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And of -- were there any of the members that got fake IDs with
23 you that had actually been it the farm that day and involved in the
25 A. Yes. Marko Boskic and Franc Kos.
9 Q. All right. And when you went to get the medical treatment in
10 Belgrade, did you on your own meet with a journalist?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you tell the journalist of your involvement in the farm
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And shortly after that were you arrested by the FRY authorities?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did you soon thereafter go in front of an investigating judge
18 in the FRY and again knowledge your involvement in the farm killings?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And a short time after that did you then come to The Hague to
21 this Tribunal and eventually plead guilty?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have nothing further.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
25 Before I give Mr. Stojanovic an opportunity to cross-examine the
1 witness, I have one or two questions for you, Witness.
2 The fake ID -- ID that was issued to you by the Bijeljina MUP, I
3 think you said, how was that to be used and when was it issued?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember precisely when
5 the fake documents were issued, but the command just told us to go to the
6 Bijeljina MUP and that we would be issued these IDs. They told us that
7 we need to do that, that we had to do it. They didn't explain all the
8 reasons why, just that we had to go and get those fake IDs.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "command," could you be a bit more
10 specific? Do you remember which person told you to do so and what his
11 function or rank was?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the commander of our
13 detachment, Lieutenant-Colonel Milorad Pelemis.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2nd lieutenant.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was it to be used internally within the
16 Republika Srpska, or was it to be used for travelling abroad?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was just a personal ID card that
18 could be used only within Republika Srpska and in the
19 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you this because the pass that was issued
21 to you so that you could go to Belgrade was issued under your own name,
22 and I wondered whether there was not a conflict between the two
23 documents, the one with your own name on it, the other one a fake ID.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I had to have the pass
25 because I was going to the hospital in Belgrade, and in Belgrade at the
1 hospital they knew my real name. I went there under my real name.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
3 Mr. -- yes. Mr. McCloskey, you stayed well within your
4 30 minutes, so I take it that you would use the time to tender the pass
5 or --
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I've -- I just wanted to clean up
7 what we had. We had that document yesterday that had a stamp from an old
8 case on it as you recall.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: We now have a new document now that has been
11 uploaded. It's 00399985, which if we could replace that -ET-1. If we
12 could replace that and get rid of the other one.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So to replace the other one.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And put this one in its place.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and you can see that at transcript 13705,
17 lines 1 through 5.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar is hereby instructed to replace the
19 document bearing a stamp of the previous case with a clean copy for this
20 case --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the document --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- as -- on the basis of the numbers given by you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the document I had just mentioned, the pass,
24 I also have noticed it has a stamp on it as well, and that's 18127. So
25 we'll do the same process and get that --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I'd like to have already a
2 number assigned to it so we can decide on its admission into evidence but
3 it's then generally understood that it is a clean copy of the same
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Then I would offer that into
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: May I have 65 ter number, please.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was 18127.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Therefore, document 18127 receives number P1677,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P1677 is admitted into evidence, and leave is
13 granted already to Madam Registrar to replace the now uploaded copy with
14 the stamp of the previous case with a clean copy, the number to be
15 provided and the document to be uploaded by the Prosecution.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I do have the -- the list of
17 associated exhibits. I can deal with that when you wish.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We could deal with them now. Let me just have a
19 look. Associated exhibits. I think we have dealt with two of them, the
20 testimony, 29019 and 29020. It is a rather long list, Mr. McCloskey. I
21 suggest the following: That Madam Registrar prepares a list for the
22 ones, unless there's any change, and I'm reading from a document dated
23 the 1st of July, 2013, being the last version, as far as I understand,
24 and let's see whether there's any -- have you used any of those? I don't
25 think so. These are really associated exhibits.
1 Madam Registrar will prepare a list containing the 65 ter
2 numbers, the provisionally assigned exhibit numbers, and a short
3 description, and we can deal with those then on a rather quick basis by
4 hearing from Mr. Stojanovic whether he has any objections.
5 Mr. Stojanovic, could you already inform us on whether there will
6 be objections against any of those appearing on the list of the
7 1st of July?
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, no, Your Honour.
9 We have no objection to any of the exhibits on the list.
10 JUDGE ORIE: There are 11 remaining, I think. We'll receive the
11 list from Madam Registrar. We'll again verify whether there are any
12 objections looking at that list, and then we'll decide on admission.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to delete
14 one exhibit because it was the fuzzy -- a fuzzy still of the blue
15 helmeted person, and that is -- that we went over with the video, so I
16 would like to delete from the list 05205, otherwise the list stands.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So then ten, Madam Registrar, will remain to be
18 included in the list with the provisional assignment of exhibit numbers.
19 Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
20 Mr. Erdemovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
21 Mr. Stojanovic is a -- is counsel for the Prosecution [sic] of
22 Mr. Mladic.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I should like to ask you to tell the Court the main reason why
2 you decided to leave the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and move to
3 Republika Srpska.
4 A. The principal reason was that I was helping Serb residents in the
5 area of Tuzla to move to Republika Srpska, and I was arrested for that.
6 At that time, one of the people whom I had helped, together with his
7 family, to move to Republika Srpska promised me that he would help me to
8 go to Switzerland.
9 Q. Did you receive any monetary remuneration for transferring Serb
10 residents to Republika Srpska?
11 A. I received only money for the fuel, because petrol was very
12 expensive. I got money to be able to tank up to drive these people, and
13 they confirmed that when I moved to the side of the VRS.
14 Q. Did they tell you why the Serb residents were leaving the
15 territory of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. Some did give their reasons, others didn't, but I could suppose
17 that they didn't feel safe and they wanted to move to Republika Srpska.
18 Q. How many people in total, to the best of your recollection, did
19 you move to Republika Srpska?
20 A. I cannot give you a precise answer. I would not wish to say
21 that. I don't know, perhaps 50, perhaps 60. I can't tell you exactly.
22 Q. How much time did you spend in prison in Tuzla on account of
23 these activities?
24 A. I was not in prison. I was in the military remand prison,
25 perhaps three, four days. I can't remember exactly.
1 Q. They suspended your remand. They allowed you to go free and to
2 make your case while at liberty.
3 A. No. Instead they sent me to the detention centre of the HVO, and
4 it was then they told me that I would probably be tried. I couldn't
5 understand why, because as far as I could understand, I had not done
6 anything against the law.
7 Q. Did you get married after moving to Republika Srpska?
8 A. I didn't get married, but I lived together with that person.
9 Q. You spoke about your arrival in Republika Srpska, and in your
10 statement which is now an exhibit in this case you mentioned a man called
11 Zoran Manojlovic. Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I should like to ask you to tell us who Zoran Manojlovic is, and
14 how did you see his role in the establishment of the unit that you
16 A. When I came to Bijeljina, that person of Serb ethnicity whom I
17 had helped move from the area controlled by the BH Army and the HVO did
18 not keep the promise to help me move abroad from Yugoslavia, move to
19 Switzerland. He had promised that to me and the girlfriend I was living
20 with at the time.
21 In Republika Srpska a mobilisation was underway, and everyone who
22 was fit to serve in the army had to join. First of all, from
23 Republika Srpska some men in some units started to mistreat me, tell me
24 that I couldn't stay there, that I had to join the army. So from
25 Republika Srpska I went to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia --
1 Q. Let me stop you here for a moment. My question was: How did you
2 make contact with Zoran Manojlovic, and who is he, and what was his role?
3 A. I made contact with Zoran Manojlovic because individuals of Croat
4 ethnicity had already been in contact with Zoran Manojlovic, and as far
5 as I was able to see, he was the commander of that unit that consisted of
6 six Croats, one Slovene, and one Muslim. That was a unit attached to the
7 Main Staff.
8 Q. Where were they physically located when you joined that group of
9 six or seven men?
10 A. At Dvorovi near Bijeljina.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel speak into
12 the microphone, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you speak into the microphone
14 when you put questions to the witness.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I
16 will try this way.
17 Q. Tell me, what did Zoran Manojlovic tell you? What kind of unit
18 was that, and what were your tasks to be?
19 A. Before making contact with Zoran Manojlovic I had spoken to two
20 or three Croats I had known from before from Tuzla, and they told me that
21 it would be a sabotage unit that would go behind enemy lines.
22 Q. Did Zoran Manojlovic have rank, and what was his relationship to
23 the Main Staff?
24 A. As far as I remember, they addressed him as Captain. I don't
25 know if that was his real rank, but I know that he was in contact with
1 Colonel Petar Salapura.
2 Q. Did you at any time before June 1995, you as a unit receive
3 directly any assignments or orders from Petar Salapura, or did all the
4 orders come through your commanders?
5 A. Through our commanders. All the orders I received were received
6 through the commanders of our unit.
7 Q. Did there come a time when you were sent for training in the
8 tasks that this unit was meant for?
9 A. Individuals from my unit did go, but at that time I didn't go for
10 the training in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
11 Q. What was the relationship between Zoran Manojlovic and that
12 multi-ethnic unit? What was his attitude to this multi-ethnic unit and
13 you personally?
14 A. He was friendly.
15 Q. You personally had no problems with Zoran Manojlovic while he was
16 commander of that unit; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At one point there occurred a change in the command staff, and
19 2nd Lieutenant Pelemis became your commander. Can you tell me when?
20 A. I believe that was in 1994, in October, I think, but I can't
21 remember exactly.
22 Q. After Pelemis arrived, did your unit get or second platoon based
23 in Dragasevac?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would I be right in saying that when Pelemis arrived there
1 occurred a change in the method of operation and the method of employment
2 of that unit to which you belonged?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you explain to the Court what kind of change occurred.
5 A. First of all, the unit was expanded, as you already mentioned.
6 Candidates were inducted into the unit from all areas of
7 Republika Srpska, including the Vlasenica platoon. They were an assault
8 brigade of sorts. They did not hold positions on the front line. They
9 carried out sabotage actions. So in that sense, our unit sometimes went
10 to hold positions on the front line above Sekovici, whereas the platoon
11 from Bijeljina did not do that.
12 Q. Was there a change in the commander's attitude towards you as a
13 non-Serb component of the unit that he commanded?
14 A. I'm not going to speak for other people. It's up to them to say
15 what their relationship with Pelemis was like, but my relationship with
16 him was not so good.
17 Q. As a person who established that unit, Zoran Manojlovic wanted
18 to have a multi-ethnic, multinational unit as a part of the
19 Army of Republika Srpska; correct?
20 A. Yes. That was his purpose, his objective.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That assumes a fact not in evidence,
23 that he actually established the unit to the degree he's referring to the
24 testimony, fine, but establishing the unit is a fairly significant thing
25 that we have not seen.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, do you accept that that's not yet
2 been established? You were asking about the attitude of the person you
3 mentioned in relation to the multi-ethnicity of the unit irrespective of
4 whether he could be -- could be called the person who established it.
5 And could you then respond to that question, Witness, which is
6 whether Mr. Manojlovic wanted to have a multi-ethnic, multinational
7 unit -- oh, you have answered that already. Yes. Yes. I missed that.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank
10 you to the Prosecutor as well.
11 Q. I'm just going to ask you this, perhaps you can give an answer.
12 This idea of a multi-ethnic unit, was that an idea that Zoran Manojlovic
13 implemented and it was the idea of the Main Staff, or was it his idea
14 that he propose to Salapura and the Main Staff?
15 A. I never discussed this with Zoran Manojlovic, so I'm not able to
16 answer this question, unfortunately. All I can say is that it was his
17 idea to have a special unit, but I don't think that he thought about the
18 personnel or the ethnic belonging of -- of the members. He just wanted
19 to have a special unit, and this is something that we would talk about
20 when he came to the unit.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in the question, Witness, mention was made both
22 of Mr. Manojlovic and of the Main Staff. Let me just see whether I
23 understood it.
24 You mean that even for Mr. Manojlovic it is true that he just
25 wanted to have a special unit irrespective of its ethnic composition?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In order to avoid any contradictions for the transcript, I just
5 wanted to ask you again. You said what the position was of
6 Stojanovic [as interpreted] regarding the ethnic composition. Could you
7 please repeat that.
8 A. Well, he had a friendly attitude. I said earlier that this was
9 not important to him who was of what ethnicity. This was something that
10 he never demonstrated in relation to me or others. I don't know what his
11 personal opinion is what he -- his thoughts were in his head compared to
12 what he was telling us. I'm just saying what his conduct was.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague has
14 just drawn my attention to the fact that a wrong name was recorded.
15 Instead of "Stojanovic" -- instead of "Manojlovic" it says "Stojanovic."
16 This is page 17, line 23. So I just wanted to clarify that in order to
17 prevent any kind of mistakes or misunderstandings in the transcript.
18 Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where you referred to the position taken by
20 Mr. -- logically Mr. Manojlovic, the transcript reads "Stojanovic," but
21 also with a sign that it will be reviewed after this session. That is
23 You've received an answer to your question, Mr. -- yes, you've
24 received an answer to that question. Please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
1 Q. Now I would like to move to specific questions that relate to the
2 events in Srebrenica. Your first assignment --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, could I put one follow-up question
4 to the witness. You said the unit was later expanded. Now, those, if I
5 could say so, the newcomers, were they Serbs, or were they Croats or
6 Muslims or a mixture? So I'm not talking about the original composition,
7 but you said a team, the unit expanded.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the other persons who joined
9 our units were -- our unit were Serbs.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. On the topic of the action in the second half of June 1995 and
13 the entry into the town of Srebrenica, this is something that you already
14 testified about. I just wanted to ask you a few things. Could you
15 remember the specific task that you were given?
16 A. In the morning when I came to the barracks in Bijeljina, I was
17 told that we were going out on an assignment. We were told to go and --
18 to go home, to take another uniform, and to return to the barracks right
19 away because we were going out on an assignment. And then when we came
20 back, when we started to put the things and the weapons in the bus, they
21 told us that we were going in the direction of Bratunac and that they --
22 we -- there we would meet up with the Vlasenica platoon. When we came to
23 Bratunac, the persons were not there yet from the Vlasenica platoon, so
24 we were told to wait there for the whole unit to assemble.
25 I don't know how long we spent there. The unit from Vlasenica
1 arrived, the platoon, and then they told us after that that we should
2 board trucks and go in the direction of Srebrenica.
3 We went to Srebrenica from Bratunac through woods and mountains
4 in our military vehicles. In the evening on the 10th, we came to the
5 outskirts of Srebrenica, to an elevation, and --
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. I would just ask you to pause here for a moment and then we will
10 continue on this topic but just one more thing before the break. In the
11 second half of June there was an action directed at the centre of
12 Srebrenica through the mine. What was the task that you were given, if
13 you can remember?
14 A. We were supposed to enter Srebrenica through the mine and to try
15 to disrupt the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, their soldiers who were in
16 Srebrenica, so that we would get them to surrender to the
17 Army of Republika Srpska, to surrender and ...
18 Q. Did you get the order from the commander of your unit, Pelemis?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did this order contain any instructions regarding the
21 civilian population?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you told at which facilities your actions were supposed to
24 be directed?
25 A. The way they explained it, they said where the Naser Oric command
1 was in Srebrenica. They thought that it was located -- and they told us
2 where they thought the troops and the police were located in Srebrenica.
3 Q. Does that mean that the task was to carry out actions against the
4 facilities of the army and police in the town of Srebrenica?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many people took part in the action?
7 A. I cannot remember the precise number, but I think it was most of
8 our unit, both from Bijeljina and the contingent from Vlasenica.
9 Q. How long was the action once you came out of the mine?
10 A. We didn't stay long, perhaps 20 minutes. Only two shells were
11 fired from hand-held shoulder borne weapons. Perhaps there are a few
12 shots from an automatic rifle and that was that.
13 Q. Thank you. I think this is a good moment for the break, and then
14 we will continue with another document after the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will do that, but before we take the break, could
16 I ask you to clarify your last answer. You said you didn't stay long.
17 Only two shells were fired from a hand-held shoulder borne weapons and a
18 few shots from automatic rifles. Are you talking about fire by your
19 units or your troops, or are you talking about fire -- incoming fire from
20 the enemy side?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There was no enemy fire. We
22 were the ones who fired, the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One -- one follow-up question, just briefly.
25 What was the target you fired at or the members of your unit
1 fired at?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I already said, at two locations
3 where our commander explained to us the Bratunac unit brigade members
4 were who helped us get through the Bratunac tunnel, they were familiar
5 with the tunnel, they explained where the Naser Oric command was and
6 where the police station was and the army. The shells were fired at
7 those two facilities. Grenades were fired at each one of those
8 facilities, and then automatic rifle fire was opened, but this is not
9 something that lasted a very long time.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Were these buildings typical military buildings,
11 barracks or something like that, or how can you describe it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think one of the buildings was
13 just a regular buildings, like a normal building, and the other facility
14 was a hangar.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We will take the break, but not until after the
16 witness has left the courtroom, but we first need to go into
17 closed session for that purpose, and we'll resume in closed session at
18 five minutes to 11.00.
19 [Closed session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, before the break you mentioned it. Can you please tell us
11 the weapons from which those two projectiles were fired?
12 A. These were two zoljas, hand-held launchers.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how long it took you to pass through
14 the mine pit, through the tunnel that you passed through?
15 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it did take a while. I think it
16 took over two hours.
17 Q. And the fire from the zolja, was that fired by your unit or the
18 Vlasenica unit?
19 A. It was members of our unit who fired.
20 Q. You received orders from your commander, Pelemis, in the course
21 of the action itself, right; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. He was there with us as we were going through the mine. We
23 received our orders before we entered the mine. They told us what needed
24 to be done.
25 Q. If I stop for a moment, it's because I'm just waiting for the
1 interpretation, because we speak the same language. So don't worry about
3 In the Army of Republika Srpska, did you have any training
4 regarding the tasks that you were performing?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Could you tell us where and what kind of training?
7 A. In the beginning when we were just the eight of us in the unit,
8 we underwent training from an officer who was in our unit. He was a
9 former JNA officer, and he was a sabotage operative. He taught us to use
10 explosives and other things. This took place in Bijeljina.
11 Q. After Zoran Manojlovic left, this officer stopped working with
12 you; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in the JNA, did you have any kind of specialist training
15 about the use of explosives, dynamite, or anything like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You already had combat experience from Vukovar; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you serve your regular military service -- correction:
20 Where did you serve around Vukovar? Where was that combat?
21 A. Honestly, I can't believe [as interpreted] the place close to
22 Vukovar where we were based.
23 Q. In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the HVO, did you undergo
24 any specialised training as to how to use explosives and how to conduct
25 sabotage operations?
1 A. No.
2 Q. While you were with that unit, did you receive a military rank?
3 A. When the unit was expanded, I was commander of the first group in
4 the Bijeljina Platoon. I had the rank of sergeant. However, due to a
5 disagreement with Pelemis, I was stripped of that rank later. I became a
6 private again.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The answer to the last question, we find that in
8 the -- in the testimony which was admitted into evidence, and for all the
9 previous questions the Chamber is lost as far as the relevance is
10 concerned. I mean, whether you are trained in explosives, yes or no,
11 seems to be rather far away from what the Prosecution is dealing with in
12 the evidence presented, that is to participate in executions of persons
13 who were unloaded from buses by the hundreds. So therefore, we do not
14 see whether to be trained or not to be trained in -- in explosives plays
15 any role in that, but if you could make it clear to us, then please do it
16 with such focused questions that we are able to follow it.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall
18 do that.
19 Q. Just tell me, when were you stripped of the rank of sergeant?
20 A. I can't remember exactly when, but I know there was a difference
21 of opinions between me and Pelemis, because I had said that an operation
22 could not be carried out because it would cause civilian casualties.
23 Pelemis did not believe me.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court
25 65 ter 05677.
1 Q. You have the document before you, and I should like us to look at
2 it together. Before the break you were saying that on the 10th of July
3 you set out to carry out the task related to Srebrenica. We see at the
5 "Pursuant to the order of the Republika Srpska Army Main
6 Staff - Intelligence Sector, strictly confidential number 12/45-852,"
7 dated "10 July 1995, "related to the movement of the elements of the
8 unit, I hereby order."
9 The first thing I want to ask you: Did you ever see this order
10 coming from the intelligence sector of the VRS Main Staff?
11 A. Yes. The Prosecutor showed it to me when I testified in the
12 Karadzic case, I believe.
13 Q. Can you remember who signed this document ordering the movement?
14 A. Milorad Pelemis.
15 Q. And do you know who signed the order originating from the
16 intelligence sector of the VRS Main Staff?
17 A. What do you mean do I know who signed it?
18 Q. I'll try to put this question differently. Who issued
19 assignments to Milorad Pelemis as the commander of your unit?
20 A. From what I was able to see and find out, it was
21 Colonel Petar Salapura.
22 Q. In this document you have before you, it says that it was the
23 commander, 2nd Lieutenant Milorad Pelemis, who ordered elements of your
24 unit to move. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But please look, who signed this document?
2 A. Milorad Pelemis, 2nd lieutenant.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we see the end of the English version,
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation], Your Honour. We need to see
6 the end of the document and zoom in on the signature and stamp.
7 Q. And then when you take a better look, can you see that this
8 signature is by Franc Kos, and it says, "For the commander"?
9 A. I don't know whether this is how Franc Kos signed himself, but I
10 can see in English that it's signed by Franc Kos.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about the signature, who signed
12 this document? Apparently you are -- Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I -- I really don't know. I just
14 would go on what the witnesses say. I have no reason to disbelieve the
15 CLSS's reading of it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Please proceed.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. On the 10th of July, tell us what were the responsibilities, the
19 duties of Franc Kos in your unit?
20 A. He was the commander of the Bijeljina Platoon.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. Before we go on, could
22 we agree that this document can come into evidence so we don't forget?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you want to tender this, Mr. --
24 we'll then wait until the Defence deems the time there to -- to do it.
25 Please proceed.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: How does one realise -- find out from the B/C/S
2 version that this is signed by Franc Kos? Well, I see the signature,
3 yes. Okay. Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That is why I wanted
5 us to zoom in on this part.
6 Q. Do you know whether Franc Kos had authority from your commander
7 to sign such orders on his behalf?
8 A. I cannot answer that.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the same
10 page on the B/C/S but zoom out and see the first page in the English
12 Q. Here under number 7 we see your name, and it is indicated that at
13 that moment, on the 10th of July, you were a sergeant. Does this change
14 your earlier position that at that time you had no particular duties or
16 A. As I've always said, I did not see this document then, and I can
17 only tell you what my unit commander had told me, that he had no trust in
18 me, that I'm not a sergeant, and I was never told that I would become a
19 sergeant again. Only later at some celebration of our unit at
20 Dragasevac, footage of which I was shown by the Prosecutor, that was the
21 time when I got the rank of sergeant, in August-September 1995. And my
22 contract also says that I'm a sergeant. This document says that I'm a
23 sergeant. And then they tell me that I got the rank of sergeant only in
24 July or August 1995. That's what's shown on that footage. I don't know
25 why that happened, but after that operation that I refused to carry out,
1 I was told by my commander that I was no longer going to be a sergeant
2 and no longer going to be the commander of our group in Bijeljina.
3 Q. Do you agree that what you are saying runs counter to all the
4 documents you've mentioned, the contract that you signed, the order dated
5 the 10th of July, and the video recording of that celebration and the
6 awarding of decorations where you were indicated as a sergeant?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That doesn't make logical sense, and
9 it's not correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it's logical or not, you're referring to a
11 ceremony, Mr. Stojanovic. Could I first hear from you what ceremony
12 exactly you are referring to. The order is clear, appointment -- we also
13 understand what you're referring to. Whether it's logical or not is a
14 different matter, but the ceremony was -- Mr. Stojanovic, which ceremony?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the recording of
16 that ceremony is on the Prosecution exhibit list. The witness has
17 answered, and I can answer. That was the ceremony of celebration, and
18 the recording shows the 10th Sabotage Detachment and the decorations
19 awarded to them. And that video recording is 65 ter, on the Prosecution
20 list -- just a moment I'm trying to locate this video-clip. I believe
21 it's 65 ter 22290. And it was already used in the other case where this
22 gentleman testified.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Has it been used in this case?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I had not planned to play it, but we can play it
25 very easily, and -- but my objection was based on the fact that this --
1 my recollection of the video shows that he's promoted to sergeant, not
2 that he is sergeant. So it's absolutely against what he said.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'd like to deal with my problem
4 first and then if you would not mind deal with the other one.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if this is a video which is played
7 in another case, don't expect the Chamber to be aware of it if it's not
8 admitted, and it apparently is not in any way. So therefore, if you want
9 to ask a question about the logic and referring to other evidential
10 material, you should take care that the Chamber is aware of that material
11 so they can follow your logic or lack of logic, especially when
12 Mr. McCloskey thinks that you are misrepresenting what is found on that
14 Please proceed. Mr. McCloskey, does that deal with the matter?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I would say perhaps misinterpreting. I --
16 I'm -- and my memory is not always perfect. Mr. Stojanovic and I rarely
17 disagree, but my point is that it was consistent with what the witness
18 said, not with his conclusion.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, another matter arises: To what extent
20 being promoted or demoted or being appointed in those positions is really
21 the core of the testimony of this witness or whether it is just an
22 element in the margin, because whether you participate as a demoted
23 sergeant or someone to be promoted as a sergeant in the execution of
24 people unloaded from buses, and that's the evidence the Prosecution
25 presents, may be a marginal issue on the whole matter. Please proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I will ask you this way then: Is it correct that the document
3 you have before you and the contract whereby you were inducted into the
4 Army of Republika Srpska for an indefinite time as a sergeant runs
5 counter to what you've said today, namely that in July 1995, you were not
6 a sergeant?
7 A. How can I say this to you? What is the best way to tell you
8 this? I don't know. I didn't see this document until I testified in the
9 Karadzic case. The Prosecutor asked me, just as you are asking me, the
10 same question, and then we watched that footage, and then I explained
11 what Pelemis did. I knew that according to the contract I was a
12 sergeant, but he told me at one point that I was no longer a sergeant or
13 a commander of one group in the Bijeljina Platoon, and then I saw that
14 video recording from late 1995. I saw that they gave me the rank of
15 sergeant only then. So I don't know what you make out of that, whether I
16 was a sergeant or not a sergeant. I saw on the video-clip that it was
17 only then they gave me that rank. I cannot explain it any better.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the witness has at least been clear
19 that he didn't remember exactly when he was stripped of the rank of
20 sergeant. Page 25, line 9, "Just tell me, when were you stripped of the
21 rank of sergeant?" The witness says: I have no clear recollection of
22 that. I can't remember exactly.
23 So therefore, the witness has at least shown that being appointed
24 and then being stripped of is something which happened but without
25 details as to when exactly. Let's proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. We will come back to the 10th. In the evening you were in the
3 wider Srebrenica area; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The night of the 10th to the 11th, there were no combat actions
6 or contact with the BiH Army; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. On the 11th you received a new combat assignment, and I would
9 like to ask you to tell us what it was according to your best
11 A. On the 11th, in the morning, the commander of our unit told us
12 that we would be the first unit to get into the town and that we would be
13 assigned some 15 people from the Drina Wolves, and he told us that we
14 should not fire at the civilian population and that we should be
15 directing the civilian population, if they were still in their homes,
16 that we should call them to come out of their houses and go to the
17 football stadium in Srebrenica. I don't know where the stadium is, but
18 that's what they told us.
19 Q. And did you at any point find yourself close to the positions
20 that were bombed by the NATO Air Force?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you reach the first houses of Srebrenica before the NATO
23 bombing commenced?
24 A. Yes. We had reached the first houses, and that was when one or
25 two bombs exploded at an elevation close to us, above us, as far as I can
1 remember. They were dropped by NATO planes.
2 Q. And under whose command were you at that specific point in time?
3 A. Milorad Pelemis was there with us in the action.
4 Q. And were there any members of the unit noted in the order that
5 you have in front of you, with you at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In the group that was going towards Srebrenica.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a
9 good time, since I'm not going to be using this document anymore, to
10 tender it. It's 65 ter document 05677.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, I do understand.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05677 receives number D320,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Up until that point when you reached Srebrenica, were you able to
18 see or hear General Ratko Mladic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know if he was in that area at all until the next order
21 that you received relating to General Ratko Mladic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. After entering Srebrenica, you received a new order from your
24 commander, Pelemis. You received -- you personally received this order.
25 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what kind of an order it was?
1 A. Three other members of my unit and I received an order to go back
2 to the entrance on the outskirts of Srebrenica, and we were told that we
3 should form a check-point there and wait for General Mladic to pass, and
4 when he passed that check-point, we would need to inform our unit
5 commander about it.
6 Q. The incident with the killing of a male that you talked about by
7 a man nicknamed Maljic had already occurred before General Mladic
8 arrived; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how long did you wait at this newly set-up check-point before
11 General Mladic passed by?
12 A. I cannot remember precisely, but I think it was one to two hours.
13 I cannot give you a precise answer about that.
14 Q. And was there any combat underway during that time, shooting,
15 clashes, or anything that would indicate that the warring sides were in
17 A. No, there were no combat activities, there was no fire. Perhaps
18 in the nearby woods you could hear shooting above Milici and so on, but
19 in the town itself there were no combat actions.
20 Q. And do you have an explanation that you could provide to the
21 Trial Chamber and to us regarding the fact that Pelemis said, "Go to
22 Srebrenica. Don't fire at civilians," and so on and so forth, but then
23 an hour or two later he then issued an order that a man be killed?
24 A. I cannot explain that to you. How can I explain that? I cannot.
25 I didn't understand that myself. I know that it's incomprehensible when
1 you tell someone who was not a part of that war about, you know, someone
2 who would say not to touch civilians and then an hour later would say
3 that a civilian should be killed. I cannot explain that, I cannot.
4 Q. I will rephrase the question or put it in a different way. You
5 personally, did you take it very seriously when he issued an order that
6 you were not to kill civilians? Did you yourself take that order
8 A. Yes, I did. And even without Pelemis's order, I as a soldier,
9 would not touch civilians.
10 Q. Thank you. As General Mladic was passing by, did he stop at the
11 place where you were or did he just pass the check-point?
12 A. No, they didn't stop there. They passed, as far as I can
13 remember. Mr. Mladic was in a Puh vehicle of the ex-JNA, the
14 Army of Yugoslavia. There was also a Praga there and I think another
15 vehicle, but I cannot remember it all exactly.
16 Q. How far was Pelemis from where you were when you reported that
17 General Mladic had passed by?
18 A. When he issued that order that we should go back to the place
19 where we entered the town, he was in the centre of town. So I cannot
20 tell you precisely where Pelemis was at that point.
21 Q. Did you see if at any point in time Pelemis reported or briefed
22 General Mladic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. That evening - now we will proceed faster - and that
25 night, you spent in facilities in the town of Srebrenica; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And there were no combat actions, and you did not take part in
4 any fighting; is that correct?
5 A. No. On the 11th we were told that we would remain in Srebrenica
6 because we had passed through the mine. So we were told that we would be
7 searching the mine. So when Pelemis came on the 12th, he said that this
8 did not need to be done, and then in the course of the 11th, during the
9 evening and the night, there were no combat actions in the town of
11 Q. Would it be correct to say that at the point in time when the
12 Army of Republika Srpska entered Srebrenica there was no longer any
13 civilian population in Srebrenica as they had all abandoned the town?
14 A. Most of them had left. When we were calling on people to leave
15 their houses, there were perhaps 100 or 200 persons who responded, and
16 they were mostly elderly people.
17 Q. And what was the conduct towards those persons you found in those
18 abandoned houses in the abandoned town, your conduct?
19 A. All of us in our unit told them that they should walk in front of
20 us and go to the football stadium. I don't know where the football pitch
21 was. I don't know if it existed or not, but anyway, that's where we
22 directed them to go.
23 Q. On the 12th of July, at some point you set off towards your
24 headquarters, and you did not pass through Potocari and Bratunac. Would
25 that be correct what I'm saying?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were you told why you should not go along the
3 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Milici route but should take a different route?
4 A. As far as I can remember, we were told that that road was still
5 not -- I'm trying to find the words in our language, but it's hard,
6 because the road had still not been secured, that there was still
7 fighting on that road.
8 Q. Because a vehicle broke down, it was only on the night of the
9 12th to the 13th that you reached your base again; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then the following two days you attended the funeral of your
12 colleague Koljivrat who was killed. The funeral was in Trebinje; is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And now we come to the 16th, in the morning. I would like to ask
16 you, if you are able to remember, who was at the base in Dragasevac when
17 you returned from Trebinje that night?
18 A. All the people from the Bijeljina Platoon were there, and then
19 also some troops from the Vlasenica platoon. When we came back from
20 Trebinje in the morning, they were there.
21 Q. Your colleague Koljivrat was killed in a traffic accident on his
22 return from Srebrenica on the 12th of July; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And your unit commander was also injured in the accident; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And on the 16th of July in the morning, did you see him anywhere
3 at the unit command?
4 A. I did see him in Dragasevac on the 16th of July. He had a
5 Band-Aid on his head.
6 Q. And who specifically issued orders to you on the 16th in the
8 A. On the 16th in the morning Brano Gojkovic came to the premises
9 where we were sleeping, where our beds were in Dragasevac, and he said
10 that I, Zoran Gorenje and Franc Kos should take our weapons and proceed
11 for an action as ordered by Pelemis.
12 Q. And now we come to the question which prompted us to deal with
13 your rank. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who Brano Gojkovic
15 A. Brano Gojkovic is a soldier from the Vlasenica platoon.
16 Q. Can a soldier from a different platoon issue an order, an
17 executive order, to you or to Franc Kos who at the time was a lieutenant?
18 A. In our unit it was possible, because if the commander of our unit
19 assigned him to be the commander of the squad for that assignment, then
20 he could issue an order to me or to anyone else that Pelemis assigned to
21 that particular action.
22 Q. Did you personally see or hear Pelemis issue to him an order that
23 he was supposed to pass on to you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Practically you took his word for it, that it was an order from
1 Pelemis that he was just passing on. Is that a correct conclusion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Gojkovic mention you by name when he said it was Pelemis's
4 order that you should go into a new mission?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know a member of your unit called Dragan Todorovic?
7 A. I was asked about that name when I testified in the Karadzic
8 case, and I couldn't remember.
9 Q. Can you remember who was in charge of logistics in Vlasenica for
10 your unit?
11 A. If I remember well, it was Zoran Stupar.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up
14 in e-court now a part of the transcript from the Popovic case marked
15 65 ter 1D1090, page 14041, lines from 21 through line 6 on the next page.
16 Q. At some point we'll have to move to the following page, but
17 before we do that I would like to read certain passages. So, sir, in the
18 Popovic case the Prosecution had called Dragan Todorovic as a witness, he
19 was a member of your unit, and he was examined by my learned friend
20 Mr. McCloskey. And his evidence ran as follows: The question by
21 Mr. McCloskey was:
22 "Among this group that you've named that left, do you know who
23 was in charge of the group?"
24 Todorovic answers:
25 "Franc Kos, who was a 2nd lieutenant, signed for the equipment.
1 If he was not around, Drazen Erdemovic had the rank of sergeant, and he
2 would have to sign because privates could not sign. Their signature
3 meant nothing.
4 "Q. And you mentioned that Drazen Erdemovic joined this group a
5 bit later. Can you tell us more about it? Do you know under what
6 circumstances Erdemovic joined the group?"
7 He answers, and we have to move to the following page:
8 "Well, quite simply so that he wouldn't stay alone in the unit,
9 because everybody would go to their homes if their homes were close. One
10 part of the intervention group that was at the ready had already left.
11 So as he was not going to Bijeljina, he joined the group that left the
13 Does the evidence of this witness refresh your memory, first of
14 all, in the sense that it says you were treated as a sergeant at the
15 time, and perhaps you even signed the document on drawing supplies that
16 were issued to you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take it step-by-step what you put to
18 the witness in detail, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I
20 will do that.
21 Q. So my first question: Does this passage, where the witness in
22 the Popovic case says that it was either Franc Kos or you as
23 2nd lieutenant and sergeant respectively signed that list drawing
24 supplies, weapons, ammunition, et cetera?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you please read exactly the
1 portions you would like to put to the witness. Let me start with the
3 "France Kos, who was a 2nd lieutenant, signed for the equipment."
4 That apparently is not a question but something put to the
6 "If hadn't be there," it does not say what or who had not been
7 there, "it would have been Drazen Erdemovic who would have signed for a
8 document like this."
9 That is what the witness says and not as you phrased it.
10 Does this -- did you ever sign a document like that in the
11 absence of Mr. Kos?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I had signed any
13 document at all, I'm 100 per cent sure it would have been produced here
14 and shown to me. I never signed anything that had anything to do with
15 withdrawing weapons or being issued with weapons.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you misrepresented the evidence of
17 the witness, what you just read in your questions. Now, is there
18 anything else you would like to put to the witness in order to see
19 whether it refreshes his memory? If you do so, please do it literally
20 and not in vague terms.
21 Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know the practice is sometimes they get the
23 audio of the Serbian, so that may be the explanation, because I know --
24 as you know, he's reading from the Serbian, so that may be what the
25 glitch is.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, then it should be verified. Let
2 me see. We have a -- one second, please. Yes. First of all, if there's
3 any doubt as to what was -- what is written down in English deviates in
4 any way from what is written down in B/C/S, then we would have to verify
6 Mr. Stojanovic, I take it that within your team there's
7 sufficient knowledge to make a first assessment of any discrepancies.
8 Perhaps you could take the next break to look at that, the next break by
9 the way is about to start anyhow. So please compare what is there in
10 B/C/S and in English, see whether there's a -- any discrepancy. If so,
11 we'd like to be informed about it. If not, please stick very much to
12 what the witness really said, because that's not what you put to -- have
13 put to this witness, at least on the basis of the English.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] One request, Your Honour, with
15 your leave. Could you just tell me where is the misrepresentation of the
16 witness's evidence in my question to this witness in order for me to
17 address it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness talked about the potential situation,
19 and you are putting it as if either of the two would sign it. That is --
20 and the witness was talking about such documents, not this document. A
21 literal reading will make clear to you that it's not exactly the same.
22 Not to say that you intentionally did so, Mr. Stojanovic, but read it
23 carefully and you'll find out, or discuss it with your colleagues. If
24 there is any doubt remains, then of course you are free to address the
25 Chamber at any point in time.
1 We -- in order to allow the witness to leave the courtroom, we
2 will move into closed session and take a break of 20 minutes.
3 [Closed session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 I take the opportunity to put on the record that as discussed in
1 closed session the Defence will file its expedited response to a 92 ter
2 motion in relation to Christopher Lawrence by the 10th of July.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: With your leave, Your Honour, in keeping with
5 the instructions you gave us, we have tried to compare the English
6 version of the transcript and the transcript which is the official
7 transcript based on the audio recording of the evidence of this witness,
8 and we have found significant discrepancies.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Work should be done on that. It is not the official
10 document. Still, the official document is the English version, and if
11 there's any translation error, then of course it should be corrected, but
12 the B/C/S transcription from the audio is not an official document of
13 this Tribunal, although it may be very helpful, and we're all glad that
14 these transcripts do exist.
15 Then it should be -- it should be verified whether the B/C/S
16 audio is translated accurately in English and whether the English
17 transcript accurately reflects what is the accurate translation. That is
18 the work that should be done. And we can't do it at this very moment.
19 Again it seems to be not an issue which is central to the evidence of
20 this witness, but if you have any questions or if it's clear to you how
21 any confusion could be avoided or corrected, you please do so,
22 Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. When I tender
24 this exhibit, I will also ask at the same time for this confusion to be
25 addressed, because obviously you were not able to see in English what I
1 was reading from the B/C/S. So the misunderstanding and the confusion
2 are quite understandable, and I understand your objection.
3 I will continue, with your leave.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would like to add one thing, and I'm also
5 addressing the Prosecution. The issue was raised not long ago, I think,
6 and we asked for submissions by the Defence on the matter, if the witness
7 attests to the accuracy of his testimony, then he does so on the basis of
8 the audio.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll discuss this matter later. The Chamber might
11 want to discuss it among themselves as well.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then we
14 will tender this part of the transcript later when we have seen what the
15 witness really said.
16 Q. Thank you for your patience, Witness. Let me ask you this now:
17 Do you remember that at any point you told anyone that you wanted to go
18 on that mission of your own free will?
19 A. No.
20 Q. With your leave, I would call up again 65 ter 1D1091, which is
21 again the testimony of Witness Dragan Todorovic, page 2402 -- 24204,
22 excuse me, lines 1 through 23. Witness Todorovic in his evidence says,
23 among other things:
24 "Q. Thank you. And he addressed whom?
25 "A. He addressed Obrenovic, and I later found out why --"
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue to read, it's for the Chamber
2 important to know who "he" is, otherwise it's difficult to understand.
3 Was Mr. Todorovic talking about Mr. Erdemovic at that point in time?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. He was talking about
5 Pelemis, Your Honour, and the context is --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know, and therefore what you usually would
7 do is to also include the previous page. Now, you have uploaded only one
8 page, so I can't look one page back, but apparently you say that the
9 previous part of the transcript makes clear that Mr. Todorovic is
10 testifying about Mr. Pelemis. That's -- then please proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I will begin
15 Q. "Q. And then he turned to Gojkovic and asked for a couple of
16 soldiers because they were supposed to carry out a mission."
17 And the witness answers:
19 "Q. France Kos, was he a lieutenant? Was he at the base at the
21 "A. Yes. He took up that role on himself.
22 "Q. Was Franc Kos a Slovene?
23 "A. Yes."
24 And now the crux of my question:
25 "Q. Was Drazen Erdemovic there?
1 "A. Erdemovic was with me in Trebinje but he volunteered. He was
2 not forced to go. He was a sergeant. That was his rank."
3 Now I ask you, Witness which if any part of this evidence by
4 Todorovic is consistent with your memory; namely, did you really
5 volunteer to go on that mission?
6 A. I don't understand. It says here that I was with him in Trebinje
7 and that I volunteered what, to go with him to Trebinje? What are you
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there's talk about a mission. Now,
10 you were kind enough to tell us that "he" is Mr. Pelemis, although that
11 doesn't appear from the transcript itself. You left out a few lines.
12 That seems to be no major problem either. It was about quarreling about
13 something. And then he spoke to Gojkovic. It's not -- let's just assume
14 that that is again Mr. Pelemis. And then later it is about a mission of
15 which the transcript doesn't tell us what mission it is. The only thing
16 it says, that Mr. Erdemovic was with the "he" in Trebinje and that he
17 volunteered. But again, not volunteering to what. He was not forced to
18 go -- forced to go where, to do what? It's totally unclear without
19 further context. So therefore, I do understand that the witness is
20 unable to answer this question which is so unclear.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will -- I will try to deal
22 with it with a different question.
23 Q. Do you remember, Witness, that you at any point asked to go on
24 that mission yourself?
25 A. Which one?
1 Q. The one you got on the 16th. On the 16th of July, in the
2 morning, you received a new assignment. We discussed this. The
3 assignment was conveyed to you by Brano Gojkovic, and you concluded that
4 it was from Pelemis. I'm asking you about that mission. Did you at any
5 point express your readiness to go on that mission voluntarily?
6 A. No. As I've said already, Brano Gojkovic came to our rooms where
7 we slept and he told me and Franc Kos and Zoran Gorenje to get ready,
8 that we are going on a mission, that Pelemis had ordered it.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now could we call up in e-court,
11 please, 65 ter 1D1088, page 53, straddling 54 in B/C/S, and page 76 in
13 Q. While we're waiting, this is a statement given to the OTP by
14 Franc Kos after he was arrested in Croatia, and he gave this statement
15 while in detention in Osijek. And among other things, he says -- let us
16 just wait to get the B/C/S.
17 The Prosecutor asked him, and you can see that in front of you in
18 the B/C/S and in the English, and he mentioned that place, meaning
19 Pilica, and Franc Kos replies:
20 "Yes, and nothing I got out of the office. At that point I met
21 Erdemovic, and Erdemovic asks the commander, 'Boss, can I go with them?'
22 As well, he asked and the boss commander said, 'Yes, go, go.'
23 "Q. Pelemis?
24 "A. Yes, Pelemis told him that he can go too.
25 "Q. What was your task?"
1 And Franc Kos replies:
2 "Guarding and securing of prisoners, probably the same as those
3 four had, probably."
4 And then:
5 "Okay. But your task at Dragasevac when you went to the
6 commander, your task was to collect these people, gather these people and
7 to prepare them for the trip."
8 So I'm asking you whether you recall. If at any point in time
9 you addressed Pelemis in the presence of Franc Kos, asking Pelemis if you
10 could go to that assignment.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have any logical explanation why Franc Kos would say
13 something that does not correspond to the truth?
14 A. Well, I cannot explain that. How could I explain something like
15 that to you?
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this part
18 of the transcript of Franc Kos's testimony from the 8th of May, 2010.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's a 157-page document, Mr. -- you have
20 uploaded. You want all of this in evidence just for the reason that you
21 read a few lines of it?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We just wanted
23 to use sections of it. There will be two. We will use one more excerpt
24 and then tender that if there are no objections from the other side and
25 if you agree.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me first see exactly what it was in
2 English that you were reading from. What page in e-court, I mean. I'm
3 talking about 75 and --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Seventy-six.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Seventy-six. Let me just ... if you give me one
6 second. Because in order to understand it fully what -- what they were
7 discussing, whether he could join, yes or no, what the tasks were,
8 et cetera, et cetera, there needs some more context. That's the reason
9 why I'm at this moment looking at 75 and also because there maybe other
10 inconsistencies, because being woken up and receiving orders seems not to
11 be fully in line with what we read here. So therefore, could you
12 carefully consider what we need to understand the portions you read, and
13 if the Prosecution would consider that as well so that we have a
14 selection, a useful selection of this transcript. That is one.
15 The second, under what rule would you like -- Mr. Stojanovic,
16 under what rule would you like it to be admitted, because this is of
17 course a statement which is prepared for the purposes of this Tribunal,
18 where you would expect that a Rule 92 bis or ter would apply, but you --
19 if you want more than just reading a line of it and to understand it, we
20 need more than one line. So could you please consider that carefully
21 both from a factual point of view and a procedure point of view.
22 Mr. McCloskey, would you like to add to the problems or --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Hopefully try to resolve something. This is a
24 perfect candidate for what we've done before. He's made his point, he
25 read it into the record. It's very brief. It's very clear. There's no
1 reason to get into the details of this document for actually many of the
2 reasons you've stated. I think what they've done is clear. It's part of
3 the record.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then I would like the parties to agree on
5 what the subject matter exactly is, because there is quite some -- at
6 least looking at it only for -- for one minute I see that the witness
7 says, We were woken up in the morning, whereas here it is at least
8 unclear whether this was all done early in the morning or after a
9 meeting, a quarrel with Obrenovic. To understand the context we might
10 need a bit more than lines read.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I would say to go deeper into
12 a statement like this, as you have learned, this is -- he's been arrested
13 in Croatia on very serious charges. He has been questioned by
14 Mr. Blaszczyk as we can see, and Mr. Erdemovic has been very public for
15 many years on his version of events, so you have a person that is saying
16 other things. And this is not, in my view, the most reliable document in
17 the world, and I think it needs to come in under the Rules of the
18 Tribunal, not -- not under an 89(C) backhanded way. If any of it's going
19 to come in -- I don't mind what he's read, but when you start having to
20 get in the context and understanding from a document like this I would
21 say no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Well, I invite the parties to
23 seek an agreement on what they would consider to be necessary for the
24 Chamber to understand the testimony of this witness and the portion read
25 by Mr. Stojanovic, whether that would be sufficient, yes or no, but I
1 already warn you in advance that just those lines in isolation might not
2 be of great assistance to the Chamber.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for this help.
5 Q. Sir, after you were given this assignment from Brane Gojkovic, I
6 would like you to tell the Trial Chamber how did you understand this
7 assignment? What was it to consist of?
8 A. They took the -- we took our equipment, weapons. We got into a
9 van, and then we went off towards Zvornik. And in the vehicle
10 Brano Gojkovic and Aleksandar Cvetkovic said that they were supposed to
11 report to someone in a building in Zvornik. I didn't know who it was
12 that we were supposed to report to or why, but that's what they said,
13 that they would receive other instructions from that person. So we
14 didn't know until Brano and Aleksandar came out of that building with
15 that lieutenant-colonel. We didn't know what our task exactly was
16 supposed to be. I didn't know what it was supposed to be.
17 Q. And did you get out of the vehicle when you came in front of the
18 Zvornik Brigade command?
19 A. I don't know whether that was the Zvornik Brigade command. The
20 van parked in the compound on the left-hand side. The reception desk or
21 area was on the right-hand side next to the fence. Brano and Aleksandar
22 went to the building. They entered the building. They didn't stay long.
23 We stayed near the van. We didn't go anywhere.
24 Q. And this lieutenant-colonel, did he address you at any point?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And who was in the escort of the lieutenant-colonel when you set
2 off from Zvornik?
3 A. Two military policemen.
4 Q. And do you know where these MPs were from?
5 A. I cannot remember precisely now, but I think that they wore the
6 insignia of the Drina Corps, but I cannot remember this right now. I
7 assumed that they were members of the Drina Corps by the very fact that
8 they were there.
9 Q. And how did you identify this officer as a lieutenant-colonel by
11 A. He had a tag on his left-hand pocket, uniform pocket.
12 Q. How long were you driving to the destination where you stopped?
13 A. It didn't take long from Zvornik. We stopped at the Pilica farm.
14 I cannot remember exactly how long the trip took.
15 Q. Before you stopped at the Pilica farm, did you stop off at some
17 A. No, not as far as I can remember.
18 Q. And the farm, at any point in time did this lieutenant-colonel
19 address you there?
20 A. No. As I said before, the lieutenant-colonel spoke with
21 Aleksandar Cvetkovic and Brano Gojkovic only.
22 Q. Are you able to tell us what Brano Gojkovic told you what you
23 were supposed to do then?
24 A. Brano Gojkovic said that this lieutenant-colonel said that buses
25 with civilians would start arriving, civilians who were supposed to be
1 executed at that location, civilians from Srebrenica.
2 Q. You did not hear that conversation between Brano Gojkovic and
3 that lieutenant-colonel?
4 A. I did not hear the whole conversation. I heard some of the
5 things that they were saying. I cannot recall that now, but you are
6 correct, I did not hear the entire conversation.
7 Q. And what time of day do you estimate it was when you reached the
9 A. I think that it was approximately 10.00 a.m. I cannot remember
11 Q. I understand that, but this is very important to me because of
12 the questions that follow: Do you recall saying in the Karadzic case, in
13 your testimony, that it was around 11.00?
14 A. Well, as I said, I cannot remember. 10.00, 11.00, I don't know
15 precisely what time it was. It was in the morning, in any case.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at
17 65 ter 1D1094 in e-court, page 46 in e-court. This is part of the
18 Karadzic case transcript. Lines 20 to 21 and 22.
19 Q. The question there was:
20 "At what time were you at the farm?"
21 And then you answer:
22 "I can't remember exactly what the time was, but I think it was
23 about 11.00, but I don't know exactly."
24 So my question would be: Do you stand by this answer that you
25 gave under oath in the Karadzic case?
1 A. As I've already said here, perhaps it was 10.00, but I don't know
2 precisely. I did not read my testimony over. I don't know what I said,
3 but I know that it was around 10.00 or 11.00. I cannot confirm the time
4 to you exactly. If I were to say 11.00, I know that this is not that
5 precise time. That's why I'm saying it's not precisely that time. I --
6 perhaps it wasn't exactly at 10.00, perhaps it wasn't exactly at 11.00.
7 Maybe it was earlier or later. I cannot give you an exact reply.
8 Q. But the time that is closest to the actual time according to your
9 best recollection would be sometime between 10.00 and 11.00; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been put three times to him. He
13 says he can say it was during the morning, 10.00, 11.00. It has been
14 asked three times. It has been answered three times. Let's not try to
15 force the witness into anything more than he can tells us. Please
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. And are you able to estimate how much time after you came to the
19 farm did buses begin to arrive?
20 A. I don't know after how long the buses started to arrive. How can
21 I explain that to you? Perhaps it was 15 minutes, perhaps it was half an
22 hour, I don't know exactly. I didn't have a watch. I wasn't looking at
23 a watch. I wasn't paying attention to what time it was, how much time
24 passed before the buses started to arrive. I cannot tell you exactly,
25 but that lieutenant-colonel still had not even left the farm when the
1 first buses started arriving, as far as I can remember.
2 Q. Who specifically told you to proceed to execute these people?
3 A. That lieutenant-colonel told Brano, as I was able to overhear,
4 that same lieutenant-colonel that had prepared to leave a bit later, said
5 that people from Srebrenica would be arriving. I was mistaken when I
6 said earlier that Brano told us civilians. Now as I'm trying to
7 recollect this, I'm not able to swear that he said civilians. He said
8 people would be arriving on buses to be executed there. Brano told us
10 Q. Did any of you oppose the execution of this task?
11 A. I did not agree with that. I believe Franc Kos didn't agree
12 either. Zoran Gorenje and Marko Boskic, perhaps, I'm not quite sure, but
13 I know that we were not willing to do this. Then Brano Gojkovic told me,
14 Hand in your rifle, and go stand together with them.
15 Q. Were you aware of fact that you were doing the most heinous thing
16 imaginable, depriving people of life?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In the army system, how is it possible for a soldier like
19 Brano Gojkovic to order something like that to a 2nd lieutenant like
20 Franc Kos? Is that simply possible as a situation?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask about facts. And whether something is
22 possible or not, something -- the impossible turns out to be possible,
23 and the possible turns out to be impossible. So let's primarily focus on
24 facts and not on these kind of thoughts. Please proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I will ask you factually, as the Judge instructs me. What was
2 the reaction of Franc Kos, the 2nd lieutenant, upon being issued such an
3 order by another soldier subordinate to him?
4 A. I cannot tell you how Franc Kos felt at the time. He's the only
5 one who can tell you that. How am I supposed to explain it?
6 Q. My question was: Was there any specific reaction on the part of
7 Franc Kos? Did he do anything?
8 A. In what sense? What kind of reaction?
9 Q. I'll take it one step at a time. Did Franc Kos say at any point
10 that he did not wish to carry out that order given him by a soldier?
11 A. Before we came to Pilica, Franc Kos had already accepted that
12 Branko Gojkovic was in command of that group. As we set out from
13 Vlasenica, Branko Gojkovic and Aleksandar Cvetkovic acted as if they were
14 completely informed about that whole operation. That was clear when we
15 already set out from Vlasenica. Franc Kos had accepted already in
16 Vlasenica that Branko Gojkovic was going to be the commander of that
18 Q. Based on what did you conclude that he had accepted already in
19 Vlasenica that Branko Gojkovic would be the commander of that group?
20 A. I concluded that from the fact that he set out with us on that
21 mission. That's the only answer I can give you.
22 Q. How long did the prisoners have to travel from the point where
23 the bus stopped until the site of the execution?
24 A. I cannot remember exactly. I've told you 100, 200 metres, maybe
25 more, maybe less. I can't explain it. You go on as if I had measured.
1 Q. I understand that. That's why I'm asking you. You also didn't
2 count the buses that brought prisoners; is that correct?
3 A. Of course I didn't count them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's already in the evidence, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 There was an estimate, between 15 and 20, and you don't give such an
6 estimate if you have counted them. Could you please try to focus on the
7 core of the matter.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. To the best of your recollection, did all or the majority or the
10 minority of the prisoners wear blindfolds?
11 A. As far as I can remember, only the people on the first bus were
12 blindfolded. That's the best I can remember. I can't tell you exactly.
13 Q. Did you take people from the place where the buses stopped to the
14 site of the execution? When I say "you," I mean members of your group.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You spoke in your earlier testimony about the fact that their
17 pockets were searched and they were ordered to empty their pockets. Did
18 that happen on the walk between the place where the buses stopped and the
19 site of the execution?
20 A. I believe they were told that when they got off the buses.
21 Q. You took people out in groups of ten; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I hear a lot of questions which are
24 answered by the witness in the -- in his previous testimony, and there's
25 no follow-up, so it's just a repetition of what is already in evidence,
1 such as the first bus, people being blindfolded or not. Well, you accept
2 the answer, apparently. That's what the witness testified before. Would
3 you please conduct cross-examination rather than spend time in court on
4 matters which are unnecessary at this moment.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I know
6 that many of these things have been asked already and there are
7 differences in these statements. Let me just finish. This is just an
8 introduction to what I want to ask.
9 Q. I will end with this question: To the best of your ability to
10 estimate, how long did the whole process take, to take people out of the
11 buses, to take their personal items away, to take them to the execution
12 site and to execute them?
13 A. I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you how long that took. As I
14 told you before, I wasn't looking at my watch and timing how long things
15 lasted, how many buses came, how many people were on them. It was sheer
16 horror to any human being, and in that situation to think about how many
17 minutes, how many hours it took to count the people, the buses, I'm
18 really sorry, I didn't do that.
19 Q. But you took part in it, sir.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were a witness to that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And we're asking you why --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, there's no reason to put to a
25 witness that he should know the exact times, numbers, et cetera, because
1 he was there. Would you please refrain from doing that. And would you
2 please try to conduct cross-examination of this witness.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, if you can help me find from this
4 witness's testimony where he said that personal items were taken from the
5 people as they came out of the buses.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Bear with me
7 a moment. I'm trying to find a reference from one of his earlier
9 JUDGE ORIE: The part where stepping down from the buses is dealt
10 with is in page 844 of the transcript of the 61 -- Rule 61 proceedings.
11 But if you have found where it says so, please tell Judge Moloto.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't find the exact page that
15 was said in the Milosevic case, and if I'm not mistaken, it's page 26156
16 of the Milosevic transcript, but I may be mistaken.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: We were not given the Milosevic transcript, we
18 were given the Rule 61 hearing. So unfortunately I don't have that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And there's one more portion.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: One page, a small portion at the end from --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was Popovic.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: From the Popovic case.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Don't waste our time, Mr. Stojanovic, with referring
24 to evidence which is not even presented by the Prosecution in this
25 respect. You don't know the page. You say it's somewhere in Milosevic.
1 The Milosevic transcript is not in evidence. Therefore, why put to the
2 witness what is not in evidence before us?
3 Please proceed for another five minutes, and I may give further
4 instructions to you in the break -- before we take the break, but you may
5 proceed for the next five minutes.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I
7 asked the witness if that happened and where. I did not mean to waste
8 time. I'm moving on.
9 Q. Sir, you stayed at that location until about 1500 hours when
10 different people came and you concluded those different people were from
11 Bratunac. Do you think this estimate of 1500 hours is correct according
12 to what you remember today?
13 A. I'm telling you again I cannot be exact about time. It could
14 have been 3.00 p.m. It could have been 2.00 p.m. I cannot be precise
15 about time.
16 Q. Did you have ammunition and how much?
17 A. Yes, we did have ammunition. What do you mean how much?
18 Q. I'll ask you specifically. How much ammunition was issued to you
19 personally on that occasion?
20 A. I don't know. I believe 150 rounds.
21 Q. Did you receive additional ammunition at any point?
22 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I don't think I got additional
24 Q. Did you see any other member of that group receive any additional
1 A. When you mean that group, which group do you mean? My unit or --
2 Q. The group of you who came from Vlasenica.
3 A. I can't tell you exactly whether anybody resupplied ammunition.
4 I cannot be sure, but I know that they wanted to use the M-84
5 machine-gun, and I know Aleksandar Cvetkovic had in his van ammunition
6 for that weapon, and at one point he used that machine-gun. I don't know
7 about the rifles. I don't know if anybody put in extra ammunition. I
8 can't remember.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, what is the point you want to make
10 in this respect about the ammunition so that the Chamber understands what
11 you are eliciting as evidence. It's totally unclear to me. Is it that
12 you say you couldn't have killed them because you didn't have sufficient
13 ammunition, or we do not find in the records anywhere that the ammunition
14 was supplemented where perhaps a thousand or more cartridges had been
15 used? What's the point so we understand what we're listening to.
16 Mr. Mladic apparently wants to consult Mr. Stojanovic. You have
17 30 seconds if Mr. Mladic keeps his voice down.
18 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the issue of ammunition. I asked
20 you to explain. Perhaps we could already -- no, we have to --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, with your leave,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, because we would have -- if the witness -- we
24 can ask the witness to take his earphones off.
25 Do you understand the English language, Witness?
1 Mr. McCloskey, you might have some --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go into private session briefly?
3 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
4 [Private session]
13 [Closed session]
11 Page 13773 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. I will
14 try to complete my examination as soon as possible.
15 Q. Could you please tell us if you recall after all the events in
16 Branjevo you had any ammunition left in your rifle or your magazine?
17 A. If I recall correctly, I think that there was some ammunition
18 left over.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at document 96.
20 This is the statement of Franc Kos. This is 1D1088, 65 ter document, in
21 e-court. 1088. Can we look at page 96 in the B/C/S and page 142 in the
22 English. This is the statement that we had the opportunity to see
23 earlier. This is Franc Kos's interview with the OTP on the 8th of May,
24 2010. I'm going to read the relevant part that I would like to focus on.
25 These are lines 28 to 33 in the English, lines 2 to 5 in the B/C/S
2 Q. The Prosecutor asks him, Tomasz Blaszczyk:
3 "Did you fire in the direction of the garage?"
4 And Franc Kos answers:
5 "Not right directly at the garage but more towards the bushes."
6 Tomasz Blaszczyk asks him:
7 "Okay, what do you think? How many people were killed that day,
8 your estimation?"
9 Franc Kos replies:
10 "On Branjevo the assessment is 650 to 700 people."
11 Now, this is what I would like to ask you: Would you agree with
12 this estimate by Franc Kos?
13 A. Would I agree with that? I don't know. I cannot answer that.
14 Perhaps that is correct. Perhaps my estimate is correct. I cannot tell
15 you how many people it was. I always emphasised that I did not know and
16 that I did not want to know how many people there were. It's not that I
17 don't want to know because of those people. I don't want to know because
18 of my own conscience.
19 Q. Thank you for that answer. At one point you mentioned
20 Aleksandar Cvetkovic. I would like to ask you: Was he a member of your
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And was he the one who fired from the 84 machine-gun?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you know that he is in Israel and his proceedings for
1 extradition are underway?
2 A. Well, I did hear something about that, but I cannot remember
3 exactly what.
4 Q. Now I'm going to present to you a part of his statement.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I look at 1D1087, 1D1087,
6 page 31 in the e-court system.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it may be interesting for the
8 Chamber to know whether, and you're referring to proceedings against him,
9 whether those are proceedings for the same events as the witness
10 testifies about here today. Okay. Yes. I didn't know. You can be
11 extradited for all type of offences, but -- extradition sought by?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] According to my information, in
13 view of my contacts with his family, yes, it is connected with this case.
14 The request is made by the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the
15 extradition proceedings on this matter are underway in Israel.
16 Q. Sir, briefly I'm just going to present this document, because we
17 want to establish the truth about all of this.
18 In the interview that Aleksandar Cvetkovic had with the
19 Prosecutor's office, on the 18th of October, 2005, Bruce Bursik showed
20 him this part of your statement. I'm going to try to do this as fast as
21 possible. Bruce Bursik:
22 "All right --"
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please indicate where he's
24 reading from.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, are these the right pages? Both
1 page 31 in English and B/C/S, but they apparently don't correspond.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In the
3 English the page is correct. In the B/C/S it should be page 33 of the
4 working translation, draft translation that we have.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thirty-three of the English. What is the draft
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It should be page 31 of the
8 English. The English page is good. And with your leave, if I may
10 Q. You can read here Bruce Bursik tells him:
11 "Erdemovic at one point --"
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I have to stop you there. I think
13 it would have been appropriate to inform the Chamber that this is not a
14 witness statement but it is an interview with a suspect, isn't it? I see
15 on the first page, which of course is now not -- not on our screens, that
16 the interviewer says:
17 "I first want to advise you that your rights, your status here is
18 that of a suspect, and as such you are entitled to certain rights."
19 So this is a suspect interview and this is not a witness
20 statement which is a relevant difference. Please proceed.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: From which line are you reading?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm reading from
23 line 7 of the B/C/S and line 9 of the English version. And for the
24 purpose of the transcript, I want to confirm that he was interviewed in
25 the status of a suspect, and I will continue.
1 Q. I apologise. I apologise. Erdemovic testifies that you,
2 Aleksandar Cvetkovic, and Brano had the idea to speed up the execution by
3 using the M-84 machine-gun. He further states that you positioned the
4 machine-gun at a spot of firing at a group of ten prisoners, and he goes
5 further on to say that an argument brought up between yourself and him
6 with regards of the use of such a weapon. Can you comment on that? And
7 then he answered, Aleksandar Cvetkovic:
8 "I don't know how to comment. It's nonsense."
9 Now I'm asking you this: What Aleksandar Cvetkovic says in his
10 statement that what you said was nonsense, does that refresh your
11 recollection in any way to indicate that he did not take part in that
12 activity in the manner that you described?
13 A. Aleksandar Cvetkovic was there at the Branjevo farm, and he used
14 an 84 machine-gun. As it says in the statement, we had an argument
15 because he was using that.
16 Q. Thank you. And now I'm briefly just going to ask you some
17 things. At any point in time after all of these ugly incidents did you
18 find out that there was some promises to the commander of your unit that
19 he would be compensated in money and gold for everything that was
20 committed in Pilica or Branjevo on that day?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Could you please tell us about what you know about this and what
23 it was exactly all about regarding this compensation for everything that
24 had been done by you that day.
25 A. After what happened in Pilica on that day, we came back to
1 Bijeljina, and in Bijeljina I heard from individuals from my unit, and
2 this was also confirmed by the deputy commander of our unit when I saw
3 him, when they came back from that assignment that Pelemis was promised
4 gold and money for what our unit did in Srebrenica and in Pilica. I
5 don't know whether he was actually given the gold and the money. That's
6 something I cannot say because I didn't see it, but this was the story
7 that was going around in Bijeljina.
8 Q. And is it correct that Pelemis's lover told your wife something
9 about this during a trip to Belgrade?
10 A. As far as I can remember, I cannot remember exactly whether she
11 said that to my wife or not, perhaps she did and perhaps she did not. If
12 I said something like that, this must have been in my initial statements.
13 I know that Milorad Pelemis had a good time in Belgrade. They went to
14 hotels and to listen to music. I mean, these were -- this was the talk
15 in Bijeljina.
16 Q. [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. And among you who were in that group, was there any talk that the
21 objective of what you were doing was to destroy the entire Bosniak
23 A. I didn't hear any talk of that about the gold being the
24 destruction of the Bosniak people. Perhaps there was such talk, but I
25 was never present if -- to hear such talk.
1 Q. And did you receive any money for everything that happened and
2 because you participated in these events in the military farm in Pilica
3 and Branjevo?
4 A. No.
5 Q. At no point in time did you see with your own eyes how many
6 people were killed in the cultural hall in Pilica; is that correct?
7 A. I don't know how many people were killed. When this man came
8 again to the farm, he said that there was some 500 Muslims in the hole in
9 Pilica who were trying to break through the door and get out there. So I
10 know that there was talk about the number of 500, because this is what he
12 Q. Do you know to which unit the men who had come to Branjevo and to
13 the cultural hall in Pilica belonged?
14 A. I don't know who they were. I don't know to which unit they
16 Q. You don't know if they were soldiers or self-organised
17 paramilitaries who just got together for some interests of their own?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to speak into the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. After going into Srebrenica on the 11th of July, did you see
24 General Mladic at any point during those days?
25 A. As I've already said, I only saw him on that day, on the 11th,
1 passing by in his vehicle. That was the only time, the only moment. I
2 never saw him later.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's 2.00. It's beyond 2.00. This
4 was your last question?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question, with
6 your leave, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One. One is one, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Sir, at any time were you able to determine who that
10 lieutenant-colonel was whom you saw at the farm in Branjevo?
11 A. No.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. I have no
13 further questions.
14 I thank the Court.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
16 Mr. McCloskey, you had -- you needed two minutes, and you wanted
17 to play a video. But before you do that, perhaps you -- Judge Moloto
18 would have one question.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one question.
20 Mr. Witness, who promised Pelemis money and gold for what
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who promised that. I
23 just heard rumours that he was supposed to get it. I don't even know
24 whether it happened. But the stories made rounds among members of our
25 unit once we returned to Bijeljina. So I cannot give you a precise
1 answer to at that question.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honours, Mr. President. Could we
5 pull up 65 ter 22429.
6 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
7 Q. And, sir, you had mentioned a video that you had seen, and I'm
8 about to show you a video, the first page of which has been printing on
9 it. We have a transcript for this video, though, and this, I understand,
10 says, "10th Sabotage Detachment, One Year in Operation.
11 14.10.1995 - Vlasenica. Recorded by Ozren Draskovic."
12 Is -- is this the video you were thinking of when there was a
13 discussion about your promotion to sergeant?
14 A. I think that is the recording, but I was not promoted into a
15 lieutenant but a sergeant. At least I got interpretation "lieutenant."
16 It concerned the rank of sergeant, actually.
17 Q. Yes. And I had said sergeant. If we could now go to a portion
18 of this video at 00:03:55, and we'll play it, I believe the plan is,
19 until about 05:05.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Order number 09/30/18-73 issued by
22 the command of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska: Pursuant
23 to Article 40 of the Law on the Army of Republika Srpska, the
24 Official Gazette of Republika Srpska number 7/92, of the Order on
25 commissions and promotions of the officers and non-commissioned officers
1 during a state of war, no. 01-842/92 from 10 February 1992, Order
2 amending the Order, paragraph 5.E, Order determining the responsibilities
3 and powers of officers deciding in service-related issues on military
4 personnel and other personnel in the VRS, gives an exceptional promotion
5 to the rank of reserve infantry sergeant to Drazen Erdemovic, whose
6 military record is in the Bijeljina Ministry of Defence."
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Okay having seen that section and that reference to your
9 promotion, was that the -- again, can you confirm that's the video you're
10 talking about?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And we're not going to play it now, but do you recall as this
13 video goes on that eventually you can be seen, I believe, in the
14 restaurant nearby this -- this presentation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And this ceremony as we see on the front of the first page of it,
17 it says 14 October 1995. And ceremonies, I think everybody will agree,
18 don't always indicate the exact date of promotion, but do you remember
19 whether this -- when in relation to this ceremony you were promoted, just
21 A. I think that day when the recording was made, on the
22 14th of October, 1995.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And, Mr. President, I would offer
24 this -- this clip into evidence. We'll get it organised so it's just the
25 short piece, because it is part of a bigger one that actually has the
1 witness in it, but unless there's some kind of issue here, I think we can
2 live with what you've seen with the transcript that goes with it unless
3 you would like to see more of the ceremony.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It has been played. Now, do the parties stipulate
5 that there exists a video-clip to which the witness testified dealing
6 with an event, a ceremony on the 14th of October, 1995, in which it was
7 read to him that this witness was - and now I have to be careful - was
8 appointed or promoted as a reserve lieutenant sergeant? Let me just --
9 yes. Reserve infantry sergeant. Is there -- do the parties stipulate
10 that such a ceremony appears on this video and that that is the video to
11 which the witness testified? Then we don't need it into evidence,
12 Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, that's fine.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I have one more document that I would like
16 to offer you. That is -- I don't know if I have a number on it, but I do
17 have a -- it's only in Serbian or -- excuse me, B/C/S, and it is the
18 record of conviction of Franc Kos at the state court which I think should
19 give you some context to the discussion of Franc Kos.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you want to tender that from the bar table since
21 Franc Kos has been -- has played a role during the testimony today.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection to a judgement by Mr. McCloskey? It's
24 only in B/C/S?
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: At this time, yes. We -- and I do have a number
1 for it. It's number 29079. I have no English as yet, but we are asking,
2 of course.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It will be marked for identification until an
4 English -- English translation has been produced. And I do understand
5 that there is no objection, Mr. Stojanovic, against it being tendered
6 from the bar table in direct connection with the testimony of this
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just didn't understand whether
9 the trial judgement or the appeal judgement is being tendered, because
10 these are different judgements and different sentences.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the parties try to seek agreement. We don't
12 even need to see the whole judgement, I would say, only relevant parts,
13 parts considered relevant by the Prosecution or parts considered relevant
14 by the Defence, but I don't know how long the judgement is. I don't know
15 whether there are two judgements or not. If the appeals judgement adds
16 something to or changes anything, it might be good to have that
17 judgement, and perhaps the first instance judgement to the extent it's
18 needed to understand the appeals judgement.
19 I leave it to the parties what are the relevant portions of those
20 judgements or that judgement which they think would assist the Chamber.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. It's not my intention
22 to give you a complete belong judgement, which apparently this is, but
23 just the first page or two ideally of the appeals judgement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I said that you could discuss
25 with the Defence --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: We'll get that done.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- what are the relevant parts.
3 Then have the -- you have no questions about it. Have the
4 questions by the Prosecution triggered any need for further examination,
5 Mr. Stojanovic, or ...
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, nothing on this issue.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then, Mr. Erdemovic, this concludes your
8 testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to
9 The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,
10 questions put to you by the parties or questions put to you by the Bench,
11 and I wish you a safe return home again.
12 I already announce that after we move into public session, I'll
13 put on the record one very short -- after we have moved into closed
14 session, that I'll briefly put one administrative matter on the record
15 and that in closed session we'll adjourn until Wednesday, the
16 3rd of July, in this same Courtroom III at 9.30 in the morning. And give
17 me one second, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: And we will resume tomorrow the 4th of July at 9.30
20 in the morning in open session and we'll then consider whether there's
21 any further need for protective measures.
22 We turn into closed session and then adjourn.
23 [Closed session]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day
15 of July, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.