1 Thursday, 11 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 No preliminaries, therefore the witness can be escorted into the
12 Due to my absence of yesterday, I hand over the acting Presidency
13 at this moment to Judge Moloto for the remainder of the testimony of
14 Mr. Manning.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning, Mr. Manning.
17 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you that you're still bound by the
19 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony yesterday to tell
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.
21 THE WITNESS: I understand that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Ivetic, you may continue with your cross-examination.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: DEAN MANNING [Resumed]
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, sir.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Yesterday we left off at 65 ter number 1D1114 and I would like to
5 return to that document today as well.
6 MR. IVETIC: And if we can have page 4 of the same in e-court.
7 Q. Okay now, sir, you mentioned yesterday that some of your
8 investigations related to Ovcara and Vukovar and therefore I would like
9 to draw your attention to comment number 4 of this review where the
10 stated medical doctor from New Zealand talks about:
11 "No trenching done in Ovcara. 64 bodies removed in one day to
12 spite a UNTAES photographer. Not all bodies were fluoroscoped."
13 Did you have occasion to be advised of this type of criticism or
14 review of the exhumation work relating to Ovcara as part of your work
15 with the Office of the Prosecutor?
16 A. I don't believe so. I was, as I said yesterday, aware of the
17 criticisms. I had been aware that it had been dealt with by an inquiry,
18 and that issue I don't recall being raised again in subsequent years.
19 Q. Based upon your knowledge and training, would you agree with me
20 that fluoroscoping of mortal remains is a very fundamental and important
21 part of the process of removing and examining the remains from a grave as
22 part of a criminal investigation?
23 A. Yes, I agree with that. There would be circumstances where you
24 would not, but you would generally do that, yes.
25 Q. Okay. If we can turn to the next page of the document, I'd like
1 to focus just on a few more comments, number 12, 13, and 14, if I could
2 draw your attention there, sir. And we have three members of the team,
3 one medical examiner and two anthropologists, there giving some comments.
4 And first of all, the first individual at number 12 says that she
5 complains she was instructed how to list the cause of death by
6 Dr. Kirschner. Is that the type of misconduct that you said you did have
7 knowledge of -- or complaints of misconduct, I should say?
8 A. Generally I believe that that was the major allegation, that the
9 cause of death had been altered; but as I say, I wasn't involved in this
10 process and I only know it peripherally because it was dealt with by the
11 time I --
12 Q. Started --
13 A. -- attended The Hague.
14 Q. Looking at number 13, we see in addition to the complaint that
15 Dr. Kirschner changed autopsy reports and instructed her to do so while
16 processing reports, it says:
17 "In the field, Dr. Haglund dictated too much speed in
19 Is that second complaint something that you were aware of as
20 having occurred in the exhumations that were conducted under the head of
21 Dr. Haglund?
22 A. Your Honours, I don't recall that.
23 Q. Fair enough. Number 14. I would like to direct your attention
24 to the part where this anthropologist says:
25 "Clothing was discarded at Haglund's command, even though some
1 contained identification. Forms were not always used."
2 Were those complaints or criticisms that you were aware of
3 relating to the work of the exhumations that had predated you?
4 A. No, I don't recall that.
5 Q. Do you recall, as part of the exhumations that you did
6 participate in or were present for, how many bodies a day were exhumed on
8 A. Your Honours, that varied very significantly on the type of
9 grave. If it was an undisturbed grave, a primary undisturbed grave, it
10 might go very quickly. If it was a secondary, disturbed -- a secondary
11 grave, sometimes it was very slow. And sometimes they would uncover a
12 mass of bodies, as you saw in the Kozluk photograph, until they reached a
13 point where they could show the composition of the grave, and then they
14 would remove all those bodies fairly quickly because they were basically
15 ready for removal and left in that position to show the composition of
16 the grave and the relationship between the bodies. It very much depended
17 on the type of grave and the type of bodies.
18 Q. Thank you. If we could turn to page 10 of this document. Here,
19 sir, the committee is talking in detail about the unacceptable conduct of
20 Dr. Kirschner in regards to changing the manner of death and autopsies
21 that he himself did not perform, and the discussion is rather serious
22 including talk of losing one's licence or being dismissed, depending on
23 the jurisdiction that was involved. Did you have occasion to learn of
24 such serious discussions about the consequences of Dr. Kirschner's work
25 as part of your employment with the Office of the Prosecutor?
1 A. Your Honours, I don't recall having read this document and I
2 wasn't aware of those discussions.
3 Q. Okay. If we can go to the next page, page 11. Item number 8 on
4 page 11 confirms that:
5 "There was some validity to the charge of shifting and
6 non-protection of the bones."
7 Was that something that you were aware of when you commenced your
8 work in the field?
9 A. No, and perhaps I'd need to read the rest of the document to see
10 the context. I'm not sure what shifting and non-protection of the bones
11 means in this context, but I'm not aware of that.
12 Q. If we can go to the next page, we have some guide-lines that were
13 suggested by this committee, this review committee, and they're supposed
14 to apply, I guess, for future work of this nature. And I'd like to go
15 through about five or six with you. I'd like to highlight number 2.
16 "Develop uniformity of protocols, diagrams, and abbreviations."
17 To your knowledge, was that recommendation implemented in the
18 subsequent investigations of exhumation sites that you participated in?
19 A. Yes, Your Honours. Starting from my involvement with
20 Professor Wright, the forms that were used were generally pro formas,
21 including a space for diagrams for the layout of the bodies, et cetera,
22 in a similar vein at the mortuary, and they were amended as the
23 anthropologist or archaeologist in charge saw fit. Predominantly the
24 same form was used over the entire period.
25 Q. And looking at number 3 it says there there should be a standard
1 UN death certificate. Is that the form that you're talking about?
2 A. There was an autopsy report which detailed the examination of the
3 body or the remains. I think it's perhaps a mis-wording to say a death
4 certificate because the ICTY OTP didn't issue a death certificate. And
5 as I understand the rules, it would have been issued by the Bosnian
7 Q. Well, that's --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: What was the pro forma document? Was that the
10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the pro forma document was a report
11 which detailed the autopsy of the individual or the body, so the medical
12 examination of the body or the remains was listed by each anthropologist
13 or forensic dentist or whomever on that form. It included sections for
14 detailing cause of death, what type of examination was conducted,
15 artefacts located. Generally it would have an image of a human skeleton
16 and the author would indicate which parts were perhaps missing or which
17 parts were damaged. And generally that form stayed the same with minor
18 variations across the time I was involved in the process.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. If we can look at items number 11 and 12 now. It says:
23 "Develop a system of briefing incoming personnel and debriefing
24 outgoing personnel. Use this as a basis for a good quality assurance
1 And number 12:
2 "Develop a quality assurance program for all aspects of the
4 Were these two recommendations implemented in the exhumation
5 investigations that you participated?
6 A. Your Honours, I didn't brief incoming members of the relative
7 experts' teams, but I know that occurred and, in fact, I was present as
8 an observer when that occurred. And I would also at the commencement of
9 a mass grave examination, I would brief the whole team on the processes
10 that we expected and provide a limited amount of information about the
11 mass grave itself, conscious that I didn't want to put a position in
12 their mind beforehand, I would tell them where it was that we had
13 imagery, that we suspected it was connected to Srebrenica, et cetera.
14 As to outgoing interviews, I'm not sure -- I wasn't present when
15 that occurred. I assume that occurred.
16 And I think your last point was quality assurance. I think
17 that's a question for the chief anthropologist and archaeologist. I
18 certainly took a role in examining the artefacts and the documentation
19 and reviewing that for inconsistencies at the level that I could. I'm
20 not an anthropologist or an archaeologist. And I believe that that
21 question should be answered by those experts.
22 Q. Who was it that would collect all notes, photographs,
23 radiographs, and other materials from the autopsy?
24 A. There were at the mortuary at Visoko generally a number of
25 scene -- crime scene officers, generally former or serving police
1 officers. They were responsible at the mortuary for collecting,
2 retaining the physical evidence, which was secured at the mortuary. At
3 regular intervals, I would attend and spend several days to weeks
4 examining that material, partly to link it to the investigation but also
5 to decide what may need further investigation and what may need transport
6 to The Hague.
7 Q. These crime scene officers that you have identified, were they
8 also employees of the Office of the Prosecutor, such as yourself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'd like to turn to page 13 of this document, item IV is another
11 recommendation by this review panel as to autopsies. It says:
12 "Appoint an independent investigator who would be responsible for
13 initial work and who would report to the legal staff and, subsequently,
14 to an oversight group. Collect all notes, photographs, radiographs and
15 other materials from the autopsy."
16 Can I take it from your previous answer that there was no
17 independent investigator, but rather the persons fulfilling this role
18 were all employees of the Office of the Prosecutor?
19 A. I'd accept that, yes.
20 Q. Was an independent investigator ever considered for this role, to
21 your knowledge, if you know?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. If we can look at item number V on this list.
24 "Oversight or review panel of experts (pathologists,
25 anthropologists, odontologists, criminal investigators or other experts
1 deemed necessary). These should not be involved in the incident."
2 To your knowledge were any such recommendations implemented for
3 the exhumations and/or autopsies investigations that you were a part of
4 while at the Office of the Prosecutor?
5 A. No, I don't believe so, although specific examinations were
6 tasked to outside experts, such as soil and watches, et cetera, but not
7 an oversight individual or group.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time I would tender 1D1114 as
10 the next exhibit in evidence.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Jeremy.
12 MR. JEREMY: Good morning, Your Honours. No objection.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1D1114 is admitted into evidence. Maybe it please
14 be given an exhibit number, Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1114 receives number D329,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
19 Q. Now I'd like to move to some other areas relating to your
20 testimony. I'd like to -- I'd like to discuss with you, sir, your
21 testimony from the Popovic case but it's separate from the testimony that
22 was tendered in this case.
23 MR. IVETIC: So if we can have 65 ter number 1D1112 in e-court
24 and if we could turn to page 29 of the same in e-court, that should
25 correlate to transcript page 19018 of the underlying transcript. And it
1 is the bottom half of the page.
2 Q. And, sir, I'm starting at line 14 and I'll be reading into the
3 record the questions and answers and you can follow along with me, and
4 then I'll have some questions for you about this to see if we can
5 understand this -- if we can confirm this section of your prior -- prior
7 "Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Manning, please read that sentence as
9 "A. 'The majority of information required to submit a detailed
10 report on the Srebrenica examinations' --"
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Exhumations.
12 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
13 Q. "-- exhumations, including a definitive MNI and number of mass
14 graves, is currently held by ICMP.'
15 "Do you wish me to continue?
16 "Q. No. We'll progress gradually. I suppose you stand by this
17 statement made by you in November 2005, that is, two years ago.
18 "A. Yes, I accept that that's a valid statement still.
19 "Q. Thank you. Mr. Manning, could you please read out the
20 following sentence to us, which is actually the continuation of the one
21 you've read out?
22 "A. Your Honours --"
23 MR. IVETIC: And then we have to go to the top of the next page.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could it be enlarged a little bit further. Thank
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 "'Unfortunately, data held by the various BiH authorities, due to
3 lack of resources or other factors, is widely [Realtime transcript read
4 in error "wild"] spread across agencies and organisations and its
5 accuracy is difficult to assess.'
6 "Q. Thank you. Mr. Manning, would you agree with me that the
7 data you had at your disposal in November 2005 were received from local
8 authorities in Bosnia and that they were incomplete, not up-to-date, and
9 difficult to rely upon?
10 "A. No, I would not agree with that. A significant amount of
11 the data I received was from ICMP, and the various parts of the Bosnia
12 Commission for Missing Persons, some of them records were in excellent
13 condition, some of the records were very detailed, some of the records
14 were perhaps not complete. And also, given my inability to read the
15 language, it was inaccessible to me, given the time-frame. If I'd have
16 had more time to read through the information, I could have made a more
17 appropriate assessment of its accuracy."
18 Q. Now, first of all, sir, for this part that we have just gone
19 through, do you stand by this prior testimony as being both truthful and
20 accurate as to the matters raised therein?
21 A. I do, Your Honours.
22 Q. Now, this was at the time of the Popovic trial several years ago.
23 Have you now had more time to read through the information? Have you
24 done that?
25 A. No, I have not.
1 Q. Okay. If we can -- if I can ask you, first of all, this Bosnian
2 Commission for Missing Persons which is identified in here, am I correct
3 that this is the organisation that at the time was chaired by a
4 Mr. Amor Masovic?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. And am I correct that a Mr. Jasmin Odobasic was an assistant
7 under Mr. Masovic and perhaps later became head of that commission?
8 A. I'm not -- I'm not aware of that. I had dealt with Mr. Masovic.
9 And I may have met Mr. Odobasic --
10 Q. Odobasic --
11 A. -- but I don't recall.
12 Q. Okay. Fair enough, sir.
13 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to -- I apologise. If we can turn to
14 page 35 in e-court which should correlate to transcript page 19024.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Jeremy.
16 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, just before we move on to another
17 section, I just wanted to make a correction to the transcript. Page 10,
18 line 23, currently reads "wild," and I think it should have been and I
19 heard Mr. Ivetic read "widely." Line 23.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 Do you confirm, Mr. Ivetic?
22 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
24 Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
25 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
2 Q. Now I'd like to go through -- well, first of all, here the
3 discussion is in relation to your preparation of summaries for the year
4 2007 and the first part is -- well, let me just read it to you from
5 lines 4 to 12, sir, and if you want you can follow along.
6 "Q. So when you were there on that special mission, you were not
7 provided with confidential information, yet now you have told us that
8 when preparing your summaries for the year 2007, in June and November,
9 you had access to confidential information; is this correct?
10 "A. To be clear, I indicated that I did not take copies of
11 confidential material, but I also believe I indicated that I was given
12 access to the material that I wished to view, including the DNA reports,
13 including the exhumation reports, and including the Tuzla Canton Court
15 First of all, sir, do you stand by this answer as being truthful
16 and accurate, such that you would so answer again if the same question
17 were asked?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. At the time that this was going on and you were given access to
20 the confidential information, you were no longer employed by the Office
21 of the Prosecutor; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, it was a short-term mission.
23 Q. Okay. And do you know if the access given to you by the local
24 authorities to confidential information, was that documented by a formal
25 written request from the Tribunal or how did you gain access?
1 A. I believe there was a formal request made of ICMP and the Bosnian
2 Commission, and on the basis of their acceptance of that, I travelled
3 there and conducted the research.
4 Q. Okay. Now, would you agree with me that neither you nor others
5 from the ICTY Prosecution were present for nor monitored the collection
6 of so-called surface remains from the grave-sites that are identified in
7 your various reports that we -- that were tendered yesterday?
8 A. I think you asked if we monitored the collection of surface
9 remains from the grave-sites. If you mean the ICTY exhumed grave-sites,
10 I don't think that's correct. If you mean the additional Bosnian exhumed
11 grave-sites, again there's a distinction between a grave and surface
12 remains, but I can accept that we did not monitor the collection of
13 surface remains and -- except for one season, we did not monitor ICMP and
14 the Bosnian Commission's work.
15 Q. Okay. Now, would you agree with me that when -- when your
16 reports rely upon the MNI method of determining victims, that -- the
17 issue of surface remains does not enter into the equation?
18 A. The use of the minimal number of individuals count by the
19 anthropologists was based on the remains inside the mass grave, not on
20 surface remains.
21 Q. However, now that we've switched to the ICMP DNA identification
22 method, am I correct that these surface remains from these other
23 investigation efforts by the local authorities do come into the equation?
24 A. Yes, they come into the equation and they would provide the total
25 number, but there is also indications within the data that shows that
1 some were surface remains and some were removed from mass graves.
2 Q. I understand that, yeah.
3 Would you agree with me that neither you nor anyone at the
4 Prosecution can attest or speak to the procedures that were followed in
5 the collection and preservation and chain of custody of the surface
7 A. I examined that process during my 2005 mission, but only
8 superficially, and I examined some of the records and some of the grid
9 references but I didn't go into great detail about the surface remains.
10 I'm not sure if Mr. Janc has or if anyone else has.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll be sure to check when he comes.
12 Now, did the ICTY do any investigations to determine whether
13 these surface remains dated for the same time-period as the graves
14 themselves, the mass graves?
15 A. No, I don't believe so.
16 Q. And one more question in relation to the ICMP DNA
17 identifications, I think you've already answered it but I'd like to flesh
18 it out. Am I correct that for those exhumations of grave-sites that were
19 conducted by the Bosnian authorities, some of those bodies also come into
20 the figure from the ICMP DNA identification?
21 A. Again, those results would add to the ICMP's total figure. If
22 you're referring to my report from 2007, from memory, without checking
23 the report, the only surface remains or remains that I added from the
24 Bosnian Commission/ICMP work were from Godinjske Bare - pardon my
25 pronunciation - and from the area immediately adjacent to the Kozluk
1 primary mass grave. And I think the Godinjske burials were connected to
2 the Skorpions video or what is known as the Skorpions video.
3 Q. Well, sir, perhaps if we can -- perhaps if we can turn to your
4 2007 report just briefly.
5 MR. IVETIC: And I believe that should be number P1737 marked for
7 Q. And if I can fresh your recollection, if we can perhaps turn
8 to --
9 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to the 15th page of the document
10 which -- one page back, actually. I apologise. So I guess it was the
11 14th page.
12 Q. Sir, at the bottom of this page of your report as to the
13 Hodzici Road 6 - Snagovo 1 location, would you agree that here you have
14 an exhumation conducted by the Bosnian Commission alongside the ICMP
15 without the participation of the ICTY and you do have, at the end, a
16 recitation of the number of individuals that were identified by DNA from
17 this location? Does that refresh your recollection as to whether these
18 figures are included in your 2007 report?
19 A. Yes --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you give your answer, we should wait until
21 the correct page in B/C/S --
22 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- is loaded up on the screen.
24 MR. IVETIC: I believe it should be the next page in the B/C/S --
25 strike that. It's two pages further forward from the B/C/S. One page
1 back apparently.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's still not the correct one.
3 MR. IVETIC: That's still not the correct one.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The lower part should be that one which
5 correlates to the upper part in English.
6 MR. IVETIC: Except that we're at Hodzici Road 4, the --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you wanted to go to the --
8 MR. IVETIC: Next page --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- lower part -- next page in B/C/S.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That should make it.
12 MR. IVETIC: There we go. Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, does this refresh your recollection as to whether the bodies
14 exhumed by the Bosnian Commission with ICMP and identified by ICMP
15 constitute a part of your 2007 report?
16 A. Your Honours, now I understand. Yes, that's the case. And in
17 fact, for a number of graves on Hodzici Road, Lipje, Cancari, which were
18 all graves known to the ICTY, probed and tested by the ICTY, were exhumed
19 and DNA analysis conducted by ICMP without ICTY observations. And I used
20 that data for my report, and in fact that was the reason for me attending
21 Bosnia was to gain that data and use in the report.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. And now you say here "without ICTY
23 observations." Yesterday you said you could tell looking at the
24 secondary graves whether the person -- persons that were buried in them
25 were part of sanitisation efforts or not based upon various features.
1 For these particular graves alongside Hodzici Road and Cancari, are those
2 secondary graves?
3 A. They are secondary, yes.
4 Q. So your testimony yesterday as to how you could exclude those
5 from being graves for sanitisation of bodies would not apply to these
6 graves; is that correct?
7 A. Your Honours, I believe it would. These are secondary graves to
8 the primary mass graves at Ovcara and they showed evidence of executions,
9 witness testimony, blindfolds, et cetera. So these graves are positively
10 linked to the primary graves, and I believe that shows that. But also
11 remembering that these secondary graves were created in September and
12 October of 1995, well after the conflict had ended in that area.
13 Q. Now, during your direct examination at transcript page 14157, you
14 said that the focus of the work of the Bosnian Commission and ICMP at the
15 graves was different from yours, and in essence I think you said that
16 the -- their primary motive for the exhumations was to remove the bodies,
17 to have them examined and identified.
18 If I can ask you, is this your position or opinion based upon the
19 information at your disposal about how the BiH Commission was conducting
20 its work?
21 A. Yes, that was based on my understanding of their work and my
22 observations at the grave-sites that they were exhuming. I visited a
23 number, not only when we monitored for one season but also thereafter.
24 And in discussions with ICMP and the Bosnian Commission, their primary
25 goal was to recover the bodies and have them identified.
1 Q. And am I correct in interpreting these words of yours to mean
2 that the BiH authorities were not as focused nor careful to preserve and
3 document other artefacts or evidence recovered from the graves, but
4 rather were just focused on getting the remains out and identified as
5 quickly as possible?
6 A. That was their focus. However, I was aware that not only ICMP
7 but the Bosnian Commission, if possible, would recover artefacts; if
8 possible, would recover data from the mass graves. And that the ICMP
9 produced exhumation or examination reports from the graves in an attempt
10 to show how they were made, what artefacts may have been in them. But
11 the primary focus was to get the bodies out.
12 Q. Do you believe, sir, that this methodology employed by the BiH
13 Commission as to the exhumations leads to less diligence in following
14 standard protocols and procedures for documenting the evidence and
15 preserving the evidence from potential contamination?
16 A. Perhaps that's not a question for me, but their focus was not to
17 collect evidence. Their focus was to remove the bodies. As I say, that
18 may be a question for someone else.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for the next several questions, I
21 believe we need to move into private session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 14238-14243 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
2 Mr. Manning, we'll take a break for 20 minutes and we'll come
3 back a little later at 10 to.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you please follow the usher.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And we take a break and come back at 10 to 11.00.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please be escorted into the
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Sir, I'd like to re-visit one other thing from your prior
18 testimony in the Popovic case at this time.
19 MR. IVETIC: If we can have 65 ter number 1D1111 in e-court. It
20 should be page 55 of the same, and it should be the last two lines and it
21 will be bleeding on to the next page, the first four lines of the next
23 Q. Sir, again, please feel free to follow along with me beginning at
24 line 24.
25 "Q. Okay. And, generally, how were you able to tell that the
1 bodies were from 1995 and not from some other time?"
2 And if we can go to the next page and zoom in on lines 1
3 through 4.
4 "A. We, of course, relied on the creation date of the mass
5 grave, that the graves had been created in July of 1995, or had been
6 created thereafter in September and October 1995. So they couldn't
7 pre-date 1995, in July."
8 Do you stand by this part of your prior testimony as being
9 truthful and accurate, sir?
10 A. I do, yes.
11 Q. Now, would you agree with me that this approach that you utilise
12 is an assumption, that basically all the secondary graves that you
13 identify as coming into existence in September and October of 1995 are
14 actually filled with the remains or bodies from graves that were dated
15 from July 1995? Isn't that correct?
16 A. Your Honours, I don't believe it's an assumption. It was a fact
17 as to their creation dates. We still on the opening of every grave
18 sought to prove or disprove that that grave was connected to Srebrenica.
19 We approached it with an open mind looking for that confirmation or not.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: And that confirmation is found in the next
21 paragraph of your testimony, where you further explain identifying items
22 that you found on the bodies.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I see that my transcript is not
25 working. Is the main transcript working?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you have to do a few exercises.
2 MR. IVETIC: Oh, understood.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Connect again because it was disconnected for a
5 MR. IVETIC: No problem.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. IVETIC: If we can perhaps -- to be fair to the witness and
8 to have the record full, I can also read the following two paragraphs
9 that are the continuation of the answer.
10 Q. Quote from line 5:
11 "We also -- we also looked at identification material found
12 amongst the bodies. We would find identifications indicating the
13 individuals were from Srebrenica, and often we could find those
14 identifications indicating the persons were recorded as missing from
15 Srebrenica in the ICRC Book of the Missing.
16 "There were also other links which indicated a strong connection
17 to Srebrenica, and therefore the time, including Dutch newspapers from
18 1995, Dutch medical military rations, Dutch artifacts, as well as
19 artifacts which linked individuals to Srebrenica itself or to Potocari."
20 Sir, does this full answer that I've now read -- first of all, is
21 it truthful and accurate?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And does that complete your answer as to how -- as to why you
24 believe that the working thesis that the bodies could not predate
25 July of 1995 is not an assumption, in your view?
1 A. Yes, and backed up by the subsequent DNA analysis.
2 Q. Did you - and by "you," I mean you or other personnel at the
3 Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal - do any investigations to
4 determine if, in fact, this thesis, which I call an assumption, was true,
5 that none of the bodies in the secondary graves could have predated
6 July of 1995?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I seek clarification?
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You started your questioning with quoting the
10 witness, where you said:
11 "We ... relied on the creation date of the mass grave, that the
12 graves had been created in July of 1995, or had been created thereafter
13 in September and October 1995. So they couldn't predate 1995 ..."
14 Now, that is about graves and mass graves. You're now talking
15 about no person possibly being in one of these graves, a person, if I
16 take it, which died before July 1995.
17 Now, the -- I'm just trying to follow you. If you find a person
18 in a grave who is reported as still being alive in July and then went
19 missing and then ends up in that grave, that would -- that's at least my
20 logic but please explore with the witness whether I'm wrong, that would
21 suggest that at least that grave was filled up with at least that person
22 and perhaps more persons who died in or after mid-July 1995.
23 Now, the question of whether there may have been a body of a
24 person who died earlier is a different question. Whether another
25 person -- whether that grave existed already before July 1995 and then
1 was filled up with persons who died in July 1995, persons in a grave and
2 the creation of a grave are two different questions. If you would --
3 that's at least my understanding. And you started with the graves and
4 you ended up with bodies --
5 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps, Your Honours, if we can go to the previous
6 page of the document, the beginning of the question that I quoted talks
7 about bodies, and that might be the confusion Your Honours have, lines 24
8 and 25 of the prior page of the transcript which is where I began
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me have a look and that is at --
11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, that's at page 55, lines 24 through 25.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you read it -- well, there he says "often,"
13 isn't it?
14 MR. IVETIC: Other time --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to find it in our transcript where you
16 put it to the witness. Yes, let me see. You read to the witness --
17 MR. IVETIC: I read at page -- I apologise, it should be at
18 page 27, line 8, is where I begin.
19 JUDGE ORIE: 27, line 8 --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You began at line 24 -- oh, I beg your pardon.
21 MR. IVETIC: I'm talking about now, today's transcript.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
23 MR. IVETIC: It is line 24 of the document which is 1D1111.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that the question is:
1 "And, generally, were you able to tell that the bodies were from
2 1995 and not from some other time?"
3 And then the witness said something about the graves, so there is
4 some disparity in question and answer and that's perhaps exactly what I
5 was referring to. And you then finally -- "whether any investigations
6 were done to determine if, in fact, this thesis, which I call an
7 assumption, was true that none of the bodies in the secondary" -- you now
8 turn to the negative. It's logically not concluded. No reason not to
9 further explore the matter, but I'm just pointing at the -- at the
10 analytical flaws in the, perhaps, line of questioning and answers
11 previous case, this case, so that it becomes clear at least now.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. If I may proceed?
13 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. Sir, can you tell us, did you do - I say "you," yourself and the
16 Office of the Prosecutor - any investigations to determine if any bodies
17 that predated July of 1995 could have potentially have been buried in the
18 secondary graves that were dug in September and October of 1995?
19 A. Firstly, Your Honours, we examined each body removed from the
20 grave with that view. Not only was the first body or the 100th body
21 connected to Srebrenica, we would look for that evidence. And there were
22 investigations undertaken by the Srebrenica team, such as interviewing
23 witnesses and suspects, including the men who drove the buses and
24 backhoes and machinery that created the graves to try and establish if
25 those bodies were from Srebrenica when they were created. We looked at
1 vehicle logs, et cetera. So there were investigations around that issue
2 as to when the graves were created and who was in the graves. I don't
3 recall any information that indicated there was someone from a previous
4 era in any of the graves. That may have changed since I left.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, we have evidence in this case, in
6 particular transcript page 11481 through 11482, from Witness RM306 who
7 testified that a communal grave of 100 to 150 bodies dating from 1992 and
8 buried in a communal grave at Bratunac in 1992 after an investigation
9 involving a forensic pathologist, that these graves were dug up by
10 Mr. Momir Nikolic in autumn of 1995 and that this information was
11 communicated to your predecessor, Mr. Jean Rene Ruez.
12 Did you know about that, sir?
13 A. I don't recall that. I may have heard that allegation. I don't
15 Q. Well, sir, if true, wouldn't this basically be something that
16 would need to take into account in relation to the accuracy of your
17 working thesis, which I call an assumption?
18 A. Your Honours, I don't recall that allegation, as I said, and I
19 don't know if that allegation was investigated. I don't recall it.
20 Q. As you sit here today as a witness, can you exclude 100 per cent
21 the possibility that at least 100 to 150 bodies from 1992 were reburied
22 in one of the secondary mass graves dating from September and October of
24 A. From my knowledge of the exhumation and autopsy process, I
25 believe that could be excluded. I don't believe that's the case. And if
1 that was the case, those records would be definitively shown by the DNA
3 Q. Now, I want to ask you if you have any knowledge or information
4 of a process known as "asanacija" or sanitisation which was prescribed
5 under the laws of the former SFRY and employed by all three sides to the
7 A. I'm aware of that process.
8 Q. And in relation to "asanacija," or the removing of dead carcasses
9 of animals, ordnance, and bodies of killed combatants from the terrain so
10 as to dispose or bury the same, would that process, if you know, include
11 cloth, fabrics or clothing found in the battle-field?
12 A. If you're asking me would cloth and clothing be collected, I
13 don't know if I can answer that. My understanding of "asanacija" is the
14 removal predominantly of human remains or the burial of human remains as
15 a sanitary measure. Would they collect their clothing that was on the
16 bodies? I assume so. I don't know.
17 Q. Now, sir, in relation to battle-field casualties of the Bosnian
18 Muslim column that departed from Srebrenica in July of 1995, there are
19 various sources that indicate that up to 3.000 column members were killed
20 in combat or by going through minefields. There is a UN
21 Secretary-General's report dated 15 November 1999 based upon interviews
22 with survivors of the column. There is also a 17 July 1995 report of the
23 UN Civil Protection Affairs Office that also quotes a figure of up to
24 3.000 members of the Bosnian Muslim column that had become deceased as a
25 result of combat or mines. Did your investigation offer any insight as
1 to the number of combat and mine-related casualties suffered by the
2 Bosnian Muslim column that was leaving Srebrenica and attempting to break
3 through to Muslim territory in Tuzla?
4 A. I was not directly involved in that aspect. That was mainly the
5 military analyst -- analyst on the team. I did take statements from
6 individuals about that process. I was generally aware of it. I can't at
7 this stage give you the numbers that may have been killed in the column,
8 but I accept that there was fighting, and in some cases I understand
9 quite violent fighting, and that a number of individuals were killed,
10 which may be reflected in the collection of surface remains by ICMP and
11 the Bosnian Commission.
12 Q. Now, Richard Butler in the Popovic trial at transcript page 20251
13 conceded that 1.000 to 2.000 dead from combat engagements by the column
14 was reasonable. Is that individual the military analyst that you have
15 just identified in your answer at lines 12 and 13 of today's transcript?
16 A. Yes, he is, amongst others. And I would accept that figure from
17 Mr. Butler.
18 Q. Now, Dusan Janc - you've mentioned him a couple times in your
19 testimony - during the Popovic trial at transcript pages 33543 to 33545
20 said that he could not exclude the possibility that other bodies were
21 buried at secondary graves in addition to murder victims. Do you dispute
23 A. I wasn't here to hear his testimony. My belief is that we did
24 not have evidence of that, and I note that Mr. Janc has been working on
25 that -- on the DNA since I've left and I can't comment on his evidence.
1 Q. You say that he's been working on it since you left. Do you know
2 of a -- of -- have you had knowledge of his report that was authored, I
3 believe, in 2009? Have you had a chance to become familiar with that?
4 A. I read a report from Dusan in perhaps 2007. I don't believe I've
5 read one since. I haven't kept up with the investigation.
6 Q. Did the report of Mr. Janc that you read indicate that only
7 6 per cent of secondary grave corpses could be matched by DNA to primary
9 A. I don't recall that. I would be very surprised.
10 Q. Now, if we can --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- you're putting reports to the witness. Do we
12 have them in evidence or not?
13 MR. IVETIC: We don't yet. Mr. Janc is, I believe, scheduled to
14 be a forthcoming witness in this case. He has not testified yet in this
16 JUDGE ORIE: Because to understand fully what he means by only
17 6 per cent of secondary grave corpses could be matched by DNA to primary
18 graves, which -- what -- in the context of that report, I take it that an
19 explanation will be given. It would mean, may I take it, that in
20 6 per cent of the cases that bodily remains were found in the primary
21 graves, where bodily remains with the same DNA were found in the
22 secondary graves. So every body which is fully transported from the
23 primary grave to the secondary grave --
24 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is -- so therefore, I'm just thinking about
1 whether there is any suggestion in your question that the bodies cannot
2 be linked or is it just by the DNA.
3 MR. IVETIC: The way I'm reading the report is the exact same way
4 as Your Honour has just summarised.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that means that for 6 per cent of --
6 MR. IVETIC: -- dissociated bodies --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- dissociated -- that it could be linked, and of
8 course it's the position of the Defence that if the body is not
9 dissociated, that you would not -- no, let me say, if the body is
10 complete and if it would be completely transported from the primary grave
11 to the secondary grave, you would not find any DNA support for that
12 operation, no linkage in that respect.
13 MR. IVETIC: Correct, correct.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me and now -- perhaps it was clear
15 to everyone already, but it's clear to me now as well.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And I did not want to bring Mr. Janc's
17 report because I know it was in 2009 and that's why I first asked the
18 witness if he reviewed it and that's why I wanted to see if -- which
19 report he's talking about, if it was the same one or not, and I can't
20 tell so --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, the discussion will be whether
22 6 per cent is much or little.
23 MR. IVETIC: We'll have many discussions, I'm sure, on that
24 topic --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is the issue which will then need to be
2 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 If we can briefly pull up P1481, page 7. And if I've done my
6 counting of the pages right, that should be the map which we had
7 yesterday in hard copy that I don't know if everyone still has. And if
8 the witness needs a copy, he can have -- with the help of the usher, if
9 we could have the witness be given the copy that Madam Stewart is
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Now, sir, this is the map you talked about yesterday that I
15 believe you had created in relation to the secondary graves, and one I --
16 one question I wanted to ask you about this is: Looking at the secondary
17 graves, especially the ones that are alongside the road, which I believe
18 would be the Hodzici mass grave sites, based upon the information, the
19 totality of the information, that you and the Office of the Prosecutor
20 had at your disposal about the movements of the 5th column -- pardon me,
21 not the 5th column, the column of Bosnian men from Srebrenica, would you
22 agree with me that all of these secondary graves are located 5 kilometres
23 or closer from the sites of reported and known combat engagements of that
24 column of Bosnian males?
25 A. I'm sorry, I can't say that. I would have to check the records,
1 and as I say, I wasn't heavily involved in the investigation of the
2 column and its path. But I would have to check that.
3 Q. I know that, sir. But yesterday I believe you testified that
4 these were all far away from battle-fields. So I'm trying to understand
5 the basis of your testimony yesterday.
6 A. And, Your Honours, I was asked if it was 5 kilometres. I can't
7 confirm that. To my knowledge and having been there, there was no sign
8 of any battle within the area, particularly along Hodzici Road. It's
9 completely -- or was completely abandoned and in a remote location.
10 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to -- well, I don't want to go through all of
11 your reports, so maybe I'll just deal with one.
12 MR. IVETIC: So if we can pull up P1738 MFI, a 2003 report.
13 Q. And while we wait for that, I would like to ask you a general
14 question. Can we agree that the material that's contained in your
15 reports at all times is simply reciting or summarising what you believe
16 the results of the experts and others who examined materials were
18 A. Your Honours, that's not correct. Yes, I examined the expert
19 reports. I took data from those expert reports. But as I said
20 yesterday, because the project was so long and was involving a number of
21 personnel, some of the reports from the experts did not cover the whole
22 period, they did not cover the developments within the investigations.
23 I examined the autopsy reports. I examined the blindfolds and
24 ligatures, the physical artefacts, the connections, the identifications.
25 And I checked each and every fact within the expert reports and sought to
1 confirm if we did, indeed, have autopsy reports which indicated a cause
2 of death in agreement with that expert report. But as I said yesterday,
3 in examining the blindfolds and ligatures, for instance, I did that work
4 and that is reported in my reports, and that is work that I produced and
5 that reflects the examination of the total material available to us from
6 exhumations over a significant period of time.
7 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to page 3 of the English, page 4 of
8 the B/C/S or Serbian.
9 Q. And there at the top in the English and it's at the top in the
10 B/C/S we have the cause of death that you have just, I believe, mentioned
11 in your answer. And I want to ask you in terms of these cases here, is
12 this related only to those bodies identified by DNA or is it also in
13 relation to the other bodies that were exhumed and that are identified as
14 unique DNA signatures whose actual name and date of birth have not been
15 identified, if you can follow that?
16 A. I think you may have to ask the question again.
17 Q. Let me ask it this way.
18 The statistics contained in this section of your report, do they
19 relate to the entirety of bodies that were identified as having a unique
20 DNA signature, including those for whom the DNA testing has not yet
21 determined their actual name and identity?
22 A. Your Honours, at this stage of the investigation, the DNA results
23 were not available predominantly, and these figures represent the
24 examination of the bodies at the mortuary and the findings of the
25 pathologist. It's not an examination of the DNA of those individuals or
1 their uniqueness. And in that time, the minimal number of individuals
2 count was performed by Mr. Baraybar.
3 Q. Okay. Now, as to those that are listed as having died of
4 undetermined cause, can you please tell me, if you know, what was the --
5 what was the standard procedure under the law in the former Yugoslavia
6 for cases where there was a determination of an undetermined cause of
8 A. I don't know that law from the former Yugoslavia.
9 Q. Okay. Fair enough.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But could I then ask the following.
11 The cause of death as presented here, was that the cause of death
12 as established under the law of the former Yugoslavia or was it a finding
13 of the investigation's?
14 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, it was a finding by the chief
15 pathologist and anthropologist based on an examination of the remains.
16 So they were presenting a cause of death of the remains that they're able
17 to examine.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And if you say "chief pathologist," you are
19 referring to ...?
20 THE WITNESS: Dr. John Clark and Dr. Chris Lawrence and also the
21 anthropologist Jose Pablo Baraybar. So these figures represent the
22 results of the autopsy process and their understanding as to why those
23 individuals or those parts of those individuals were killed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. You've mentioned the chief pathologist, you've mentioned
3 Dr. Clark, Dr. Lawrence, and anthropologist Baraybar. Just -- least we
4 forget, am I correct that Dr. William Kirschner was also chief
5 pathologist for some of these?
6 A. Yes, and I would also indicate Professor Haglund or Dr. Haglund.
7 Q. Yes, thank you. Now, as to the remaining statistics that you
8 give, I see that the vast majority are confirmed and -- as probably
9 gun-shots and also actual gun-shots and then blast injuries is also a
10 category for which both probable and ascertained are the bulk of the
11 statistics. Now, did your investigation consider at all the possibility
12 that certain persons who became deceased as a result of these two causes
13 became deceased as part of the column of Srebrenica males attempting to
14 break through the Serb lines through Tuzla?
15 A. That possibility was considered, and I had many conversations
16 with the experts in relation to the cause of death and how they could
17 ascertain that. It was considered.
18 Q. And now what about considering the possibility that certain
19 persons came to be deceased as the result of suicide, whether by
20 fire-arms or by grenade, rather than to end up being captured by the
21 Serbs. Did your research and investigation take into account that
23 A. Again, that was considered in terms of how the individuals died.
24 Was it suicide or were they, in fact, shot. And as I say, I had
25 discussions with the experts about how the individuals were killed, how
1 they could show that, and what that told them.
2 Q. Okay. Now I want to put something to you and see what you say to
3 that. I put it to you, sir, that people wishing to exploit battle-field
4 "asanacija" or sanitisation actions that occurred in the weeks and months
5 following the fighting may have placed the remains of execution victims
6 taken from primary graves in these graves that were meant for
7 battle-field casualties. Can you exclude that possibility 100 per cent
8 in your view?
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Ivetic, are you asking the witness to
10 exclude a possibility or are you putting what you -- an assertion to him?
11 MR. IVETIC: I'm putting an assertion. That's my assertion.
12 Q. Do you agree with the possibility of that assertion, sir?
13 A. No, I don't agree with that.
14 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you this, sir: On the territory of
15 Zvornik and Bratunac municipalities, did you - and, again, when I say
16 "you," I don't mean you personally, I mean yourself along with other
17 personnel from the Office of the Prosecutor --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm going to have to take you back to
19 that question, Mr. --
20 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said -- you call it an assertion, but you say
22 "may have placed," that cannot be an assertion. There's still a
24 MR. IVETIC: I meant to say "placed," Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: You meant to say "placed."
1 MR. IVETIC: Placed. As part of my assertion to the witness that
2 persons did, in fact, place execution victims from the primary mass
3 graves in graves that also had battle-field casualties that were
4 collected --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you're correcting that part.
6 MR. IVETIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. And, sir, the question I now have for you is: Isn't it correct
10 that you - that is, yourself and other personnel from the Office of the
11 Prosecutor - in fact, did a fairly diligent and comprehensive
12 investigation to scour the terrain of both Zvornik and Bratunac, looking
13 for any possible mass graves that could exist?
14 A. We did look for mass graves. We used the aerial imagery. We
15 were trying to find any other mass graves, particularly obviously
16 connected to Srebrenica.
17 Q. And as part of that process, did you not also interview persons
18 that would have been involved in the "asanacija" or sanitisation
19 activities, such as grave diggers, public sanitation, or civil protection
20 departments and the like?
21 A. No, we interviewed individuals who were involved in the creation
22 of the primary mass graves and the creation of the secondary mass graves
23 who transported the bodies that they had dug up and placed them in those
25 Q. Now, sir, would you agree with me that those bodies that would
1 have been the result of battle-field casualties and that would have been,
2 therefore, the subject of sanitisation activities, whatever their number,
3 I'm not now talking about the numbers, whatever their number, they would
4 have to have been buried somewhere? They don't just evaporate into thin
5 air. Am I right?
6 A. I believe - and I'm conscious that I didn't directly investigate
7 the matter at length - I believe that the majority of the individuals
8 killed in the battle and in the column were left to decompose, and
9 eventually they were collected by the Bosnian Commission for Missing
10 Persons. I do not recall seeing evidence of a large-scale or systematic
11 recovery of the bodies by Serb authorities.
12 Q. Let me ask you a different question. Did you find any graves
13 that would have been sanitisation graves, distinct and apart from the
14 graves that you did find that you say are all related to execution
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: And how would the sanitisation graves be
17 identifiable, Mr. Ivetic?
18 MR. IVETIC: Those having bodies that were not victims of
19 executions that would have been dug by sanitisation personnel.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What I'm saying is when you find a grave there,
21 how do you determine that this is a sanitisation grave?
22 MR. IVETIC: By doing investigations. So if after the
23 investigations did they determine that any graves that they had located
24 were sanitisation graves. I apologise, Your Honour. Thank you for
25 correcting me in that.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're welcome.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 THE WITNESS: No, we did not and the graves that we examined and
4 exhumed were found to be connected to Srebrenica and the execution of the
6 MR. IVETIC:
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in this context?
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said you believed that combat casualties would
11 just have been left and not -- sanitation would not have probably taken
12 place, which would result in, I take it, bodily remains to be found
13 wherever, not necessarily in graves. Do you have any knowledge about
14 the -- if I could say the incidental bodies found here and there as a
15 result of non-sanitised combat casualties?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I was aware that remains were
17 collected by the Bosnian Commission over several years, and in 2005 when
18 I examined their records and went to their offices, they provided me
19 details of the number of bodies that they had collected and the very
20 broad areas that they had collected them. They would travel through the
21 woods, through the areas of the column, and collect either individual
22 skeletons or more probably parts of individuals that had been scavenged
23 by animals. And they would collect those remains up and they would be
24 termed as surface remains.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And are there records of that -- I'm perhaps
1 not only looking in your direction, Mr. Witness, but also partly to
2 Mr. Jeremy, Mr. Groome. Are there records of the numbers of bodies found
3 not necessarily in graves?
4 MR. JEREMY: Yes, there are, Your Honours, particularly in the
5 2007 report of Mr. Manning.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. And the 2007 report, sir, with respect to these so-called surface
10 remains, aren't most of them at or near the secondary grave sites that
11 were exhumed by the BiH Commission?
12 A. No, that's not correct.
13 Q. Now, we had a witness that testified about Bratunac, RM306, and
14 in relation to the so-called Glogova mass grave on that territory. And
15 he confirmed at transcript pages 11452 to 11453 that bodies that were
16 recovered by the civil protection staff as part of sanitisation that were
17 found at -- along the roadway were, in fact, buried at Glogova alongside
18 those persons deceased in Kravica and other locations. Is that something
19 that you knew as part of your investigation?
20 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I understand since I've left that
21 there's been some developments in where -- in relation to Glogova, and I
22 do recall grave L of Glogova which is probably a separate incident to
23 Kravica but connected to Srebrenica and an execution. But I haven't kept
24 up with the investigations since I left.
25 Q. Okay. Now, we've also had several witnesses at this trial,
1 Bosnian Muslim males, who were part of the column who have testified
2 about casualties inflicted on the column by Serb troops during the
3 attempted break through, including the use of shelling and fire-arms;
4 those would be RM253 and RM254. We have also had evidence from some of
5 the same witnesses that persons were committing suicide, including by the
6 use of hand-grenades and also by the instance of family members shooting
7 each other simultaneously. Did you come across such information as part
8 of your investigative work?
9 A. Yes, Your Honours, and I recall reading such statements.
10 Q. And would you agree with me, forensically speaking, at the
11 autopsy table one cannot exclude or differentiate the damage caused by
12 these battle-field casualties or the suicides from the deaths caused by
13 execution, I'm talking about the damage to the remains, physical damage?
14 A. Your Honours, I'm conscious that I'm not a forensic expert,
15 pathologist. From my experience in investigations, hopefully you could
16 tell that to a degree depending on circumstances. If the individuals
17 were standing together and opened a grenade, the injuries would be
18 different than having one thrown at them. If they were shot in the head
19 with a blindfold, that would be an indication of an execution. But there
20 are, I'm sure, instances where you could not tell the difference.
21 Q. Thank you. I'd like to --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question in the same --
23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, sir.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- area. We have a large number of individuals died
25 of undetermined causes. Now, are ligatures and blindfolds found also on
1 those persons for whom the cause of death could not be determined?
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I'd specifically have to check, but
3 yes, I think that is the case. And to give you an example, there may be
4 an arm recovered with a ligature placed around the wrists. Now, the rest
5 of the body is missing, particularly given the period of this report. So
6 you have a dissociated human arm with a ligature around the wrist, and
7 the rest of the body is not present. Therefore, they could not establish
8 a cause of death of that individual; however, there is a strong
9 indication that that person has been executed or at least bound before
10 they were killed. And later on in the process you may discover,
11 particularly through DNA, that the rest of that body is in a secondary
12 grave. You could then - and I have seen them do this at the Bosnian
13 Commission - you physically put the arm back with the body and you now
14 have an individual who was perhaps killed and executed and you have the
15 ligature attached to that body now.
16 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
17 Q. Now, let me follow-up on Your Honour's question. We see here
18 several thousand individuals in total from these various causes of death
19 and the question was about ligatures.
20 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to call up P1735 MFI and turn to page 4 in
21 the English and 4 in the B/C/S.
22 Q. This is something that you went through yesterday, I believe, in
23 direct examination and that I believe you indicated that you had prepared
24 based upon your own work.
25 MR. IVETIC: Again, it's P1735 MFI. And it will be page 4 of
1 that exhibit or, excuse me, MFI'd exhibit. I apologise, it's my mistake.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document is a one-page
5 MR. IVETIC: Then let's have the first page -- the one page.
6 Q. Sir, if we -- yeah, this is I think the one. If we look at this,
7 is it -- these are the numbers you talked about yesterday, I believe.
8 440 approximately -- 448 blindfolds that you could conclude conclusively
9 were found in the graves. Am I correct that your further investigation
10 found that approximately 298 were, in fact, attached either around the
11 head or the face?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And as to the ligatures, we see here the number 425, that
14 would be the total number that you conclusively confirmed could be linked
15 to the graves?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: 423.
17 MR. IVETIC: [Indiscernible]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: 423.
19 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise, 423.
20 Q. And am I correct, then, that the column indicates that 327 of
21 those would have been discovered attached to wrists or arms of remains?
22 A. That is correct, yes.
23 Q. Now, if we can --
24 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to P1735 MFI, page 4.
25 Q. And if we look at item number 2 from the exhumation events in
1 2000, we have in this particular grave a determination of a minimum
2 number of 17 individuals being buried therein. It is reported eight of
3 the 17 had blindfolds and 32 additional blindfolds were found loose in
4 the grave. Would these 32 additional blindfolds that could not be linked
5 to these 17 bodies be included in the total figures for blindfolds that
6 we just went through on your chart?
7 A. Yes, I believe that's a summary of the table that across all the
8 graves 117 were found loose in the graves.
9 Q. And that would mean that 117 of the 442 or 48 -- 140-something
10 would have been found loose in various of the graves?
11 A. Yes, I believe that's correct.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. IVETIC: Now, let's turn to page 7 in both versions of this
14 document that we have in e-court, P1735 MFI.
15 Q. And if we look at -- if we look at the entry under blindfolds
16 that's for 4th April, 1996, it talks about certain blindfolds that
17 appeared similar to those found in graves but that were found outside of
18 the graves at a dump site and the investigators did not retain these.
19 Why was the decision made not to preserve these blindfolds that were
20 found outside of the grave for which -- I don't know whether it's you or
21 someone else has made the determination that they were substantially
22 similar to the ones found in the graves? Who made the decision not to
23 preserve this evidence?
24 A. Your Honours, I wasn't with the OTP at that stage. I'm aware
25 that team leader Jean Rene Ruez located those items. He filmed and
1 videotaped them. It was in late -- it was in early 1996, and I
2 understand from speaking with Mr. Ruez why he didn't retain those items.
3 He retained a small number from Grbavci school, but he didn't retain the
4 rest of them.
5 Q. Well, sir, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. I believe
6 Grbavci school is the 11th April, 1996, the following paragraph, where it
7 does say that a representative sample of 12 blindfolds was taken. Are
8 you linking these two events separated by seven days as being the same,
9 or was Mr. Ruez talking about both or one?
10 A. He was talking about the same issue. The Grbavci school and the
11 Orahovac primary execution points are linked and he explained to me the
12 location of those blindfolds at the Grbavci school and also at the
13 rubbish dump at Orahovac.
14 Q. Now, you -- the opinions stated in this report that they were
15 similar or indistinguishable from those found in the graves, whose
16 opinion or assertation is that which you are reporting in your report?
17 A. To a degree it is Dr. Maljaars, Suzi Maljaars from the
18 Netherlands Forensic Institute. It also represents the comments by the
19 chief pathologist and archeologist. And Dr. Maljaars examined those
20 blindfolds and established links. And it also is my opinion from an
21 examination of those items which are represented in photographs of each
22 of the items.
23 Q. If we could turn to page 10 of this document, you indicated that
24 Ms. Maljaars was the source for some of that. And at page 10, as to
25 blindfolds you'll see for the -- let me just read the passage for you.
1 It says:
2 "The blindfolds recovered from the Lazete 2C site have not been
3 examined by the Netherlands Forensic Institute. However, the vast
4 majority of the blindfolds located within the grave are indistinguishable
5 from those located in the Lazete 2A & B, Lazete 1, and the related
6 secondary sites of Hodzici Road 3, Hodzici Road 4, and Hodzici Road 5."
7 In relation to these blindfolds that are identified in this
8 paragraph, am I correct you could not have relied upon Ms. Maljaars?
9 A. Your Honours, I indicated that Ms. Maljaars was part of that
10 reliance. From the other experts, chief anthropologist, archaeologist,
11 and from my own examination.
12 Q. And which one is this? Is this from your own examination or is
13 it from relying upon one of the experts?
14 A. All of those.
15 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your reports, you summarise in some of
16 them the findings of soil and pollen experts. Were those soil and pollen
17 expert reports sought by the Prosecution for purposes of being used in
18 trials at the Tribunal?
19 A. Yes, and it was one expert, Dr. Anthony Brown.
20 Q. And he was a professor; is that correct?
21 A. A professor from Exeter University, if memory serves me.
22 Q. That's correct, I think. And your report also cites the results
23 of blood and tissue testing done by the United States Naval Criminal
24 Investigation Service, or NCIS. Were those expert reports sought by the
25 Prosecution from the NCIS for purposes of using the same at trial before
1 the Tribunal?
2 A. Yes, they were sought. I don't recall that being the reason they
3 examined the sites because it was very early on, but they did seek the
4 report or reports.
5 Q. And your reports also mention a review by explosives experts.
6 Were those reports sought by the Prosecution for purposes of using them
7 at these trials here at the Tribunal?
8 A. Yes, I believe so.
9 Q. And I want to ask you, sir, in relation to the soil and pollen,
10 the blood and tissue, and the explosives testing that we've just gone
11 through, did you personally participate in any of the testing or was that
12 all done by these other entities or persons whom we have just now
13 identified in the last couple of minutes?
14 A. Your Honours, the explosive residue and blood examinations, those
15 samples were collected prior to my arrival at the Tribunal. I did assist
16 the Netherlands Forensic Institute in providing those samples and
17 returning those samples and I did review their reports. In a similar
18 fashion Dr. Brown's reports were reviewed by myself and I, on occasion,
19 would accompany Dr. Brown to various sites and was present when he took
20 his samples, and I spoke to him about his results.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, are we at the time for the break?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Indeed we are.
24 Mr. Manning, you may follow the usher.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take a break.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Take a break of 20 minutes or come back at quarter
4 past 12.00. Court adjourned.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the witness please the escorted into the
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. One last question as to the surface remains before moving on.
13 These surface remains that you have said were recovered by the BiH
14 authorities, am I correct, all total we're talking about, what, under
15 200? Under 100? What is the figure, if you remember?
16 A. I don't recall the figure. I don't recall the figure.
17 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Then we'll move on.
18 MR. IVETIC: At -- if we can call up 65 ter number 1D1111, and if
19 we can look at page 61 of the same, which should correlate to transcript
20 page 18962 of that underlying transcript. And if we can zoom in on
21 lines 7 through 19.
22 Q. And, sir, I'd like to focus with you on this question and answer
23 from the Popovic case again at line 7:
24 "Just generally still, can you tell us whether there had been any
25 evidence in any other graves that you've exhumed that the -- that there
1 were soldiers comingled with civilians inside the graves?
2 "A. We didn't find any significant number of uniforms to
3 indicate military forces. We also did not find equipment in -- to
4 indicate military forces. We did find some material and some very
5 limited numbers of, say, a camouflage shirt or a military jacket.
6 "No, to my recollection or knowledge, no individuals were found
7 in a complete uniform. One pistol was located in the belt of an
8 individual at Glogova. He wasn't wearing military clothing, and that
9 pistol was in a loaded condition. I understand a grenade was found in
10 1996 in the sleeve of an individual, but apart from that, we did not find
11 evidence of military artifacts or clothing amongst the dead."
12 Sir, first of all, do you stand by this question and answer as
13 being truthful and accurate as to the matters stated therein?
14 A. I do, Your Honours.
15 Q. Now, you've as part of your investigation seen the statements of
16 many of the Bosnian Muslim males from Srebrenica and I think you will
17 agree with me that there are a significant number of statements talking
18 about how members of the Bosnian Muslim column, whether armed or not,
19 were in civilian rather than military uniforms. Would you agree with
21 A. That the majority of them were in civilian clothing? Yes, I
22 would agree with that.
23 Q. And again, when you say in the previous answer that we read from
24 Popovic that you did not find many in uniforms, et cetera, those
25 observations would be limited to those graves exhumed by the ICTY
1 personnel; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. I saw the clothing and artefacts from the ICTY graves. I
3 did read some details in the Bosnian records.
4 Q. Okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek clarification of one of the previous
7 When you said that you'd agree with the majority of them were in
8 civilian clothing, did you intend to say that the majority of the members
9 of the Bosnian Muslim -- oh, it says "column," let me just see. Yes,
10 majority of the column were in civilian clothing? Yes, I was a bit
11 confused, Mr. Ivetic, because you -- no, I'm not confused. I shouldn't
12 blame you for it. Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 Q. Now, as to the lack of any military hardware, we've already
16 talked about the process of sanitisation, or "asanacija." And I want to
17 ask you, sir, given what you know, given your investigations, do you
18 consider seriously that at a time of war when "asanacija" is being done
19 to safe-guard the public from harm that could be occasioned by the
20 presence of bodies, explosives, and weapons left in the open, would you
21 consider it logical and reasonable that weapons would be knowingly buried
22 with the bodies where scavengers could get ahold of them and where
23 explosions could still take place?
24 A. If you're asking me if "asanacija" was conducted correctly, would
25 they bury weapons with the bodies, I would say I doubt that. There may
1 be circumstances where they do. If "asanacija," or clearing of the
2 battle-field, is done correctly, I would assume that that would happen.
3 Q. You're going to have to clarify when you say, "I assume that
4 would happen," you would assume --
5 A. I'm sorry. That the weapons and explosives would be removed or
6 protected. I can see a situation perhaps where a need to bury them
7 quickly and they bury them completely, including their weapons, with the
8 intention of recovering them later, but I'm not a military expert.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. And if I could ask you, perhaps, from your
10 professional career in the Australian police force when a body is found
11 with a weapon next to it in the street, is the body interred or buried
12 with that weapon or is the weapon safe-guarded in some other location?
13 A. Of course it is.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you do have information that at least some of the
15 bodies that were found in the graves that were not excavated by the ICTY
16 did not or perhaps did not relate to Srebrenica; isn't that right?
17 A. No, I don't believe so.
18 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at 1D1112 in e-court, page 61 of that
19 transcript, which should correlate to transcript page 19050 of the
20 Popovic proceedings. And if we can focus on lines 16 through 19.
21 Q. Rather than reading the whole thing, I'd like to see if I can
22 refresh your recollection by reading your answers contained in that page
23 of the transcript that says:
24 "The Bljeceva 1 mass grave, which is not an ICTY mass grave,
25 contains the remains of 39 individuals positively identified via DNA
1 analysis as being missing following the fall of Srebrenica. It contains
2 persons from Srebrenica as well as perhaps unconnected bodies."
3 Does that refresh your recollection or --
4 A. I don't recall that evidence, but I accept that that's what I
6 Q. Okay. And would you accept that your recollection was perhaps
7 better back when you testified in Popovic?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: But your question was not that, Mr. Lukic. Your
9 question was that -- I beg your pardon, Mr. Ivetic. I'm sorry,
10 Mr. Lukic, if you are here.
11 MR. IVETIC: He's not here.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's not here.
13 Okay. "Now, you do have information that at least some of the
14 bodies that were found in the graves that were not excavated by the ICTY
15 did not or perhaps did not relate to Srebrenica," and I emphasise
16 "relate." Now, what you are quoting here, he does indicate that they did
17 relate but there may have been other people within those graves. But
18 they did relate to Srebrenica. "The Bljeceva 1 mass grave which is not
19 an ICTY mass grave contains the remains of 39 individuals positively
20 identified via DNA analysis as being missing following the fall of
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, perhaps I caused an error by skipping
23 to the answer and not reading the question. If you read from line 9 of
24 transcript, it reads:
25 "'Tuzla canton court Prosecution file," and it gives a number,
1 "relates to this grave and indicates that this grave also contained the
2 remains of bodies unconnected with the fall of Srebrenica" --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is not what you quoted to the witness at the
5 MR. IVETIC: I understand. That's what I said. So I take
6 responsibility for that confusion.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay, thank you so much.
8 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at page 81 of this transcript which
9 should correlate to transcript page 19070 of the underlying Popovic
10 transcript. And if we can focus on line 23 through 25 and then it will
11 be lines 1 through 8 on the next page once we go there.
12 Q. Again, sir, I invite you to follow along as I read the question
13 and answers and then I'll have some questions about it.
14 "Q. Okay. Now, being a police officer for 24 years and having
15 worked murder details, for example, do you believe and agree with me that
16 a pathologist must be independent and objective when coming to the
17 manner," if we can go to the next page, resuming the reading, "and cause
18 of death?
19 "A. Yes, as should the -- as should the police investigator.
20 "Q. Okay. And would you also agree with me that a pathologist
21 must maintain that independence and objectivity, and that neither Defence
22 counsel nor a prosecutor should be allowed to assist or encourage them in
23 the cause or manner of death?
24 "A. If you're asking if a Defence counsel or Prosecutor should
25 be allowed to assist or encourage in the cause or manner of death, no."
1 Answer -- pardon me, end of the quotation.
2 Sir, the question I have for you is: Do you stand by this prior
3 testimony as something that is both truthful and accurate, that you would
4 testify to again if asked the same questions today?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, the question is asking for opinion and
6 judgement, so you could ask the witness whether he has the same opinion
7 or same judgement --
8 MR. IVETIC: Yeah --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- not whether it's accurate or not.
10 MR. IVETIC: I apologise. You're correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You could even wonder whether such a question should
12 be put to a witness of fact, but I leave that aside.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Do you still believe the same way or hold the same position that
15 we now read back from Popovic?
16 A. Yes, I do, in that context, yes.
17 Q. Do you believe that as an investigator of the Prosecution you
18 were empowered to undertake all measures to obtain a conviction even if
19 it meant being untruthful yourself?
20 A. Your Honours, if I understand the question correctly, and I take
21 some objection, my job wasn't to obtain a conviction. My job was to
22 obtain the evidence and hopefully present it in court, and that's your
23 decision or the Court's decision. I have never been untruthful in this
24 court or any other court, and I believe that my job was to be as
25 independent and impartial as possible.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, if you could please ask facts of the
2 witness rather than try to pass judgement on the witness.
3 MR. IVETIC: Okay. Let me ask him this factual question then.
4 Q. Have you ever been untruthful in the course of your --
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's just told you a few minutes ago he has never
7 MR. IVETIC: In the courtroom, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Go ahead.
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Have you ever been untruthful in the course of a witness
11 interview to attempt to obtain information to be used by the Office of
12 the Prosecutor in court proceedings?
13 A. I don't believe I've been untruthful with the intention of
14 obtaining information. I would strive to tell the truth as much as
15 possible. Certainly on occasion you would not tell the witness
16 everything and I would try to ensure that what I told the witness was
17 correct as far as I could tell that witness. And I would strive not to
18 provide them with information which was false.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: And I come back to you, Mr. Ivetic, again in the
20 previous sentence the witness said: "I have never been untruthful in
21 this court or in any other court, and I believe my job was to be as
22 independent and impartial as possible."
23 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So even outside the courtroom. So what you are
25 suggesting to him, outside the courtroom, was already answered by his
1 assertion of impartiality.
2 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed.
4 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
5 Q. I think to be fair I'm going to have to go through the entire
6 procedure from beginning to end.
7 MR. IVETIC: If we can look at 1D1113, please, in e-court. And
8 it is the 70th page in e-court, which should correlate to transcript
9 page 19140 of the underlying -- I apologise. It should be three pages
10 back or four pages back. And one page before at the middle of the page
11 and we'll be getting to this page eventually, but from line 14 and
12 onwards. We'll take it step by step.
13 Q. And if you'll follow along with me, sir, this was your
14 examination in the Popovic trial by one of the Defence teams.
15 "Q. And you've been at pains, I think particularly when Mr. Meek
16 was cross-examining you, to emphasise how fair, honest and objective you
17 were in conducting interviews with the very witnesses -- with the very
18 many witnesses and suspects you interviewed. That's correct, isn't it?
19 "A. I explained to Mr. Meek that that's the way I conduct my
21 "Q. Would you agree with me that it's part of your interviewing
22 style to make the suspect or witness perfectly aware of the material at
23 your disposal?
24 "A. Your Honours, again this is quite general, but if I am in a
25 position to tell the suspect certain things, I will. That's not to say
1 that if I have a piece of information, that I will tell that person that
2 I have that information. I indicated I wouldn't lie, but it's not
3 always," if we can go to the next page, lines 1 through 2, continuing
4 with the reading, "the case that I would tell them everything that I knew
5 or everything that I had. But, again, that's being very general."
6 First, do you still stand behind this prior testimony?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Does this refresh your recollection of the discussion of the
9 interview that you conducted with Mr. Milorad Bircakovic?
10 A. Yes, it does. Your Honours, I was asked about my comments to a
11 witness in a previous trial and I explained that I had said to the
12 witness that I had personally exhumed thousands of bodies and that we had
13 evidence which showed executions taking place at the time.
14 Q. Were those things that you said to the witness truthful at the
15 time that you said them?
16 A. Your Honours, I've thought about that since, and I can say that
17 they are. I did personally exhume thousands of bodies as part of that
18 team. I stood in the grave and I helped carry the bodies from the graves
19 and I worked for six years on those exhumations -- four years on those
20 exhumations. And I believe we did have evidence and we do have evidence
21 of executions taking place at the time. Certainly, the video of the
22 Kravica warehouse shows individuals being executed in the warehouse. And
23 as a previous witness has indicated, there is evidence of bodies laying
24 on the ground at Kravica warehouse that had been killed by Mr. Erdemovic
25 and his comrades.
1 So yes, I overexaggerated, I overstated, but I believe that the
2 facts are true. And I recall that my position was to make sure that the
3 witness, who was a witness, understood clearly that we had a wealth of
4 information and that he very strongly understood our position.
5 Q. You just mentioned Mr. Erdemovic and his comrades at Kravica
6 warehouse. Was that really the result of your investigation?
7 A. Sorry, my apologies. At --
8 Q. Branjevo --
9 A. At Branjevo Military Farm.
10 MR. IVETIC: If we can move ahead three pages from the present
11 point in that 65 ter document in e-court.
12 Q. I'd like to re-visit what you had said at the Popovic trial so we
13 have the full picture of it. From lines 1 through to 17, sir. At
14 number 1 the question posed is:
15 "Why did you tell him all that?
16 "A. Clearly, I'm indicating to him that we had a substantial
17 amount of information, that it was in his interest to tell the truth.
18 Clearly, I was conducting an interview. I suspected, as many of them
19 did, that he would lie, and I was trying to give him as much information
20 as possible that we had.
21 "Now, I must make comment on two points. I wasn't present for
22 the exhumations at those graves. And you asked me about the aerial
23 imagery of executions, and clearly that's not correct. When I spoke
24 about the aerial image of executions, in the Branjevo Military Farm
25 photographs you can see what I believe and know to be bodies, and I take
1 that as a valid comment, that that image shows bodies that have been
2 executed. And I don't know why I indicated that I personally exhumed
3 those bodies, knowing that I wasn't there in 1996. I would say that I
4 haven't checked this interview against the record, the actual tape, but I
5 accept the majority of what was said there. I can see that there are one
6 or two words missing, but I accept that I said those things."
7 Does now this and what you told us in the courtroom just prior to
8 me asking this contain the entirety of your answer as to why you told
9 factually incorrect things to this witness during this witness interview?
10 A. I believe that that represents my position and why I said those
11 things, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to the training that you underwent at the
13 Office of the Prosecutor, and I would even extend it back further to the
14 Australian police, were you taught that for interviews of witnesses or
15 suspects it was okay to misstate facts?
16 A. No, I was not taught that.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I put it to you, sir, that you want to see Mr. Mladic
18 in the courtroom hearing a guilty verdict because you believe that he
19 murdered people. Am I correct about you?
20 A. Your Honours, I'm not sure if the Court wants to hear my personal
21 view of the matter. I've already stated that I undertook my duties in an
22 impartial manner, and I believe I sought to show evidence no matter
23 whether it was exculpatory or the reverse. I believe that's my official
24 position, and I don't know if the Court wants to hear my personal views.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Manning, the Court does not want to hear your
1 personal views. But it does seem as if Mr. Ivetic wants to hear them.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours. If I can go back to the
3 question --
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. I'll repeat it for you, if you like.
6 A. Yes, please.
7 Q. I put it to you, sir, that you want to see Mr. Mladic in the
8 courtroom hearing a guilty verdict because you believe that he murdered
9 people. Am I correct about this?
10 A. Your Honours, that's correct, although I would say I want to see
11 him in the courtroom and evidence presented, and if that evidence is
12 sufficient - and I believe it is - that he be convicted for murdering men
13 and boys, individuals.
14 Q. Would you ever misrepresent facts in order to obtain a conviction
15 of General Mladic?
16 A. No, I would not. And in the example that you've provided, I
17 don't believe I even approached that. As I said, I believe I exaggerated
18 and the facts behind that are correct. I did exhume thousands of bodies
19 and there is evidence of executions taking place.
20 Q. I would like to take a few moments to review a video with you
21 that was just disclosed to us by the Prosecution 48 hours ago.
22 MR. IVETIC: We do have the original transcript as provided by
23 the provider, and it has been uploaded into e-court --
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, for the record, I'd just like to make
1 clear that this is a video available from a very public source --
2 MR. IVETIC: Yes, yes, I wasn't implying that it was -- that it
3 was a violation of any sort of the disclosure.
4 But the transcript is in e-court and has been, I believe, given
5 to all the booths. And if I can preface it by saying there is one part
6 that I note where on the screen they are showing parts of the Srebrenica
7 trial video and there are, I believe, subtitles or translations of that
8 video --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Registrar informs the Chamber that only one
12 copy was provided in the French language to the French booth and nothing
14 MR. IVETIC: If the booths can assist, I personally delivered to
15 the English and the B/C/S, if they can confirm that they have those.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see somebody nodding in this booth here, showing
17 a piece of paper, another one there -- I can't see the rest -- the
18 stenographer is throwing her hands in the air.
19 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I can -- with the assistance of the usher, I
20 could provide a copy for the stenographer as well.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not quite sure that I'm getting any response
22 from those booths there.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, it's my understanding that the French
24 booth is on that side and the English and B/C/S are behind us.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: There are two booths here. One must be the
1 French, the other one must be some other language.
2 MR. IVETIC: Yeah, I don't know which one is which. That's why I
3 asked for assistance to getting it to the French booths. I don't know
4 how we can confirm that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. We're not hearing from them. I will assume
6 that they are okay.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you. And as I was saying, there is -- there
8 does appear to be a section of the interview with the journalist where
9 portions of the Srebrenica trial video that we've used in this case, and
10 that's been viewed time and again, is present and those sections do not
11 appear in the transcript as provided by the media outlet that produced
12 this documentary. So I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention.
13 I'm not intending to rely on anything as translated in the subtitles or
14 in the audio relating to the Srebrenica trial video. I want to focus
15 only on the words said by the journalist and by Mr. Manning. And that's
16 the introduction I have for this video.
17 And it is 1D1126 and the first segment I'd like to show is from
18 2 minutes and 14 seconds to 3 minutes and 53 seconds. And, Your Honours,
19 are we still showing them twice? I'm prepared to do so if that is the
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think, yeah, we might as well show them twice
22 because you see --
23 MR. IVETIC: Right.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- relying on the text between Mr. Manning and the
1 MR. IVETIC: So then we will play the first time.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "Liam Bartlett: Dean Manning, Australian federal policeman, has
4 spent six years as an investigator in one of the biggest crime scenes in
5 the world, preparing the case against General Mladic. He will testify
6 how Mladic incited his men to hunt down, capture, and execute Muslims.
7 "Ratko Mladic: [Voiceover] 'The time has come to take revenge on
8 the Muslims.'
9 "Dean: He said that here in front of his men.
10 "Liam Bartlett: What does that mean to his men?
11 "Dean: 'Take revenge' - kill them, and that's what they did.
12 "Liam Bartlett: The murderous directive was carried out with
13 such cold-blooded efficiency, it was over in just three days - some of it
14 even recorded by the killers for their home videos. Srebrenica was
15 sealed off, women were raped, and 8.000 men and boys executed.
16 "Dean: What they intended to do was destroy the population.
17 They took the men and killed them and they took the boys - so they
18 couldn't become men - and they killed them.
19 "Liam Bartlett: The males were separated into groups and held at
20 various staging points, like this warehouse on the outskirts of town.
21 Despite the clear evidence on video, Dean must prove forensically that
22 Mladic masterminded the atrocity."
23 MR. IVETIC: Now I will rewind and play it back the second time.
24 And here is the second playing.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "Liam Bartlett: Dean Manning, an Australian federal policeman,
2 has spent six years as an investigator in one of the biggest crime scenes
3 in the world, preparing the case against General Mladic. He will testify
4 how Mladic incited his men to hunt down, capture, and execute Muslims.
5 "Ratko Mladic: [Voiceover] 'The time has come to take revenge on
6 the Muslims.'
7 "Dean: He said that here in front of his men.
8 "Liam Bartlett: What does that mean to his men?
9 "Dean: 'Take revenge' - kill them, and that's what they did.
10 "Liam Bartlett: The murderous directive was carried out with
11 such cold-blooded efficiency, it was over in just three days - some of it
12 even recorded by the killers for their home videos. Srebrenica was
13 sealed off, women were raped, and 8.000 men and boys executed.
14 "Dean: What they intended to do was destroy the population.
15 They took the men and killed them and they took the boys - so they
16 couldn't become men - and they killed them.
17 "Liam Bartlett: The males were separated into groups and held at
18 various staging points, like this warehouse on the outskirts of town.
19 Despite the clear evidence on video, Dean must prove forensically that
20 Mladic masterminded the atrocity."
21 MR. IVETIC: Okay.
22 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to ask you some questions about this section
23 we've just reviewed. First of all, do you consider your duty to prove
24 forensically that General Mladic masterminded the atrocity, as is -- as
25 was stated by the narrator, Mr. Liam Bartlett?
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are we clear that these are not the witness's
2 words, these are the words of the journalist?
3 MR. IVETIC: Correct.
4 THE WITNESS: And, Your Honour, that was my response. Those
5 words were of the journalist. I had no control over what he said and how
6 they presented that interview. They are his words.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Now, did you have a role in selecting the videos that were to be
9 shown as part of this interview during either your recitation or the
10 recitation by the interviewer, Mr. Liam Bartlett?
11 A. No, they had access to those videos and I didn't discuss with him
12 that selection.
13 Q. Okay. And was the translation of the first part of the
14 Srebrenica trial video, was that translation the actual official
15 translation, or was that done by the news journalists at this
16 "60 Minutes" programme?
17 A. I assume by the "60 Minutes" people. I don't know.
18 Q. When you said, "he said that here in front of his men," had you
19 reviewed the tape with their translation or had you -- or were you
20 referring to the original tape you had viewed as an investigator with the
21 Office of the Prosecutor?
22 A. Your Honours, I was referring to a conversation with
23 Mr. Bartlett, in which -- and he had obviously been aware of it, in which
24 he asked me about the words that Mr. Mladic said there, and my response
25 to them and my understanding of what he told me - and which I believe is
1 correct - is that he said words very similar to what was translated.
2 Q. Okay. Now, when the interviewer, Mr. Liam Bartlett is talking
3 about how the murderous directive was carried out in just -- in just
4 three days and was even recorded by the killers for their home videos,
5 and then they're showing a video, did you recognise that video as the
6 so-called Skorpions video, which I think you referenced earlier in
7 your -- in the cross-examination?
8 A. I did, yes.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that the Skorpions video does not date to
10 three days after the Srebrenica but dates to the end of July or the
11 beginning of August in a different region known as Trnovo, which is
12 closer to Sarajevo than to Srebrenica?
13 A. Again, the three days are his words, and I would have to check
14 that the Skorpions video was -- I'm not saying discovered. But I wasn't
15 at the Tribunal when that was found and I don't know all the details.
16 Q. Okay. Did you view this piece after it had been aired or after
17 it had been prepared, I should say?
18 A. The first time that I viewed it was after it had been aired in
19 Australia. I think I viewed it on the internet. I was in Dubai at the
21 Q. And at the time that you viewed it, did you at that time take any
22 action to dissociate yourself from the words of Mr. Bartlett and the
23 showing of the Srebrenica video from a different time-period and the
24 quoting of it being three days from the words issued by General Mladic?
25 A. Your Honours, I don't think that's a correct statement of what
1 happened. They say - and they're not my words - "within three days," and
2 then they show the video of the boys and women and children. They may
3 have been referring to that. And as I said to you, I don't know the date
4 range of the Skorpions video.
5 Q. Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you said you would not rely on what was
7 played. Could you assist me because that seems to be part of your line
8 of questioning. The portion played before this witness comments on
9 saying "take revenge" before your troops means, et cetera. What was
10 said, was that part shown where the word "revenge" is used or not? Since
11 you have not -- you say you would not rely on it, but it's of course
12 relevant for understanding your testimony. Could you agree with the
13 Prosecution on what exactly at that portion --
14 MR. IVETIC: Was said, yeah.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Mladic said.
16 MR. IVETIC: And I believe we had that from the Srebrenica trial
17 video. What I was --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it could be but --
19 MR. IVETIC: I misspoke. I meant to say I'm not relying upon the
20 transcript that the producer has produced as to that portion because it's
21 not in the transcript, is what I should have said.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see that. But for us to understand at this
23 very moment, not having the whole of the Srebrenica trial video on our
24 minds second for second. What was exactly said by Mr. Mladic before the
25 witness started saying something about revenge and that means killing
1 before the troops. What was said?
2 MR. IVETIC: I can at the break check and perhaps even reach a
3 stipulation with the counsel on that. That's something I'll be
4 [overlapping speakers] --
5 JUDGE ORIE: So that we better understand.
6 MR. IVETIC: Yes, that's fine.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 MR. IVETIC:
9 Q. Sir, do you recall -- do you recall this interview and this
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Do you recall later on where there is -- well, let me just do it
13 this way. I'd like to show you also the last part of this --
14 MR. IVETIC: I apologise, this is page 3 in the transcript for
15 those that have the hard copies, the last two paragraphs. And so in
16 e-court, it's also the last page of the transcript of 1D1126, and it is
17 the section from 12 minutes and 34 seconds to 13 minutes and 8 seconds,
18 which I will again play twice in the procedure that we have adopted here.
20 Okay, I'm ready to do that now, Your Honours, with your leave.
21 The first playing.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Liam Bartlett: For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of
24 piecing together the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted,
25 but reveal to the world the full horror of those three days in
2 "Dean: What I want to see is a trial where the world is shown
3 what he did. I want to see the truth come out and be shown to the world
4 that he murdered people. I want to see him sitting in that courtroom and
5 hear the verdict."
6 MR. IVETIC: And now the second playing, the second playing
7 commencing from 12.34 to 13.08
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "Liam Bartlett: For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of
10 piecing together the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted,
11 but reveal to the world the full horror of those three days in
13 "Dean: What I want to see is a trial where the world is shown
14 what he did. I want to see the truth come out and be shown to the world
15 that he murdered people. I want to see him sitting in that courtroom and
16 hear the verdict."
17 MR. IVETIC:
18 Q. Now, in relation to that --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic ...
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. IVETIC: If I may have a moment, Your Honours, to try to --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You do.
23 MR. IVETIC: -- consult with my client.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Very quietly.
25 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Q. Now, in relation to this piece that we've seen, first of all,
3 sir, are the words uttered by the journalist narrator, Mr. Liam Bartlett
4 accurate as to you:
5 "For Dean Manning and Bob Reid, it's a case of piecing together
6 the evidence that will not only see Mladic convicted but reveal to the
7 world the full horror of those three days in Srebrenica"?
8 A. Your Honours, they're not my words. They're a journalist's
10 Q. And do you stand by the part at the end that was played of your
12 A. I do, yes.
13 Q. Okay. And with respect to the video again that was shown, the
14 Skorpions video that we have in evidence in this case, since you say that
15 you don't know when that was obtained, can you tell me based upon your
16 investigation and your experience when you believe that the events taking
17 place in the video take place?
18 A. It was my view that that occurred very soon after the fall of
19 Srebrenica. I believed it was within that time-frame, but as I say, I
20 didn't investigate that matter. And that video was produced by the --
21 sorry, presented by the documentary maker and I had no hand in that.
22 Q. When you say that you believed it was within that time-frame,
23 what is "that time-frame" a reference to?
24 A. That it occurred as a result of the fall of Srebrenica, that
25 those men had been captured from Srebrenica as it fell on the
1 11th of July and that they were killed subsequent to that. I don't
2 recall even considering when the date was. I understood that it was
3 connected to the fall of Srebrenica.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 THE WITNESS: And that those individuals were missing from
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. Okay. What did your investigation and knowledge reveal about the
9 location where these men were shot in the video, Trnovo? Is that closer
10 to Sarajevo or to Srebrenica?
11 A. Your Honours, I didn't investigate the video. It came about
12 after I left, but I would agree with you that Trnovo is further away from
13 Sarajevo -- from Srebrenica.
14 Q. Okay. You say that the video was selected by the persons who
15 produced this news documentary segment. Did you have occasion to view
16 the video with them, the Srebrenica video -- the Srebrenica Skorpions
18 A. I think I did, yes. And I think I'm -- in one of my reports I
19 commented on the DNA analysis of their -- the grave that they were
20 located in and that they were directly linked to Srebrenica and the fall
21 of Srebrenica. As to the timings, as I said, I don't know.
22 Q. And so you even referenced, and I believe you're correct, in one
23 of your reports the Srebrenica video. But you didn't believe that as an
24 impartial investigator looking for the truth that you should have
25 investigated when this video was shot and where? You didn't think that
1 was part of being an impartial investigator?
2 A. Your Honours, there's evidence that those victims were connected
3 to the fall of Srebrenica. They've been identified as victims of
4 Srebrenica via DNA. I didn't investigate that video; it was after my
5 time. And I believe the fact that they are victims of Srebrenica, at
6 probably whatever time they were killed, is sufficient. They were killed
7 and they are victims of Srebrenica.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. IVETIC:
10 Q. Do you feel that you can, sitting here as a witness, separate
11 your personal conviction and feelings or position that we've now
12 discussed and we've seen in the videotape from the testimony that you're
13 giving under solemn declaration before this Chamber?
14 A. Your Honours, I believe I was measured in what I said in that
15 interview. I don't believe I said that he should be convicted no matter
16 what. I was certainly not indicating that he should not receive a fair
17 trial and that's my position. I was asked directly what I wanted to see,
18 and I told a journalist that. That is in no way affecting my position as
19 a witness in this court under oath providing evidence.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, that concludes my cross-examination for
22 this witness.
23 Q. Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.
25 Mr. Jeremy, any re-examination?
1 MR. JEREMY: No re-examination, Your Honours, but I would like to
2 deal with the MFI'd exhibits.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may.
4 MR. JEREMY: So I'd like to -- I'd like those to be formally
5 admitted into evidence --
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, you objected to these exhibits
7 yesterday. You haven't sort of challenged them. As you said, they
8 were -- lots of hearsay yesterday when you talked about them, and in
9 addition you used some of them yourself in cross-examination. Do you
10 still maintain your objection?
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I do. I did ask the witness if, in
12 fact, these expert reports from these third agencies were sought for the
13 purposes of litigation, and he answered in the affirmative. So I believe
14 under the jurisprudence of the Tribunal, the proper method to get those
15 documents in would have to be 92 ter. If these outside experts who
16 prepared written reports, which in essence is their written testimony,
17 which this witness did not participate in, if those findings are to be
18 something that the Chamber is going to rely upon, I think that the proper
19 mode of testimony would be 92 bis or 92 ter, rather than it coming in
20 through a witness who is reciting them, perhaps correctly, perhaps
21 incorrectly, in layman's terms in a report that he has authored that
22 doesn't identify necessarily which conclusions come from him, which come
23 from predecessor investigators, and which come from these third-party
24 experts. And so I think for those purposes, I would maintain my
25 objection to the reports that we MFI'd yesterday, which I think there's
1 four of them in total.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any response to that, Mr. --
3 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours. Of -- to the extent that
4 Mr. Manning's report relate to experts who are not going to be called
5 before this Tribunal who Defence will not have the opportunity to
6 cross-examine and he won't have the opportunity to see, this relates to
7 one of Mr. Manning's reports, the 2000 report, which is P1735 MFI. Now,
8 that's a 141-page report, approximately three pages of that report
9 relates to summary of expert reports, expert evidence, that we won't be
10 tendering and we won't be calling those experts. Our position is that
11 those references should remain because they relate to the integrity of
12 the investigation conducted by Mr. Manning, to his credibility, to the
13 credibility of the investigation, all of which has been challenged in the
14 course of cross-examination of the witness. Moreover, those reports are
15 very elementary in nature as compared to the reports of the experts who
16 we are calling.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: The -- I see you are rising, Mr. Jeremy.
19 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber has considered both objections on the
21 tendering of the documents. The Chamber will look at the weight to be
22 attached to the documents and -- but the documents are hereby admitted.
23 Madam Registrar, P1735 MFI, P1736 MFI, P1737 MFI, and P1738 MFI,
24 if you can remove the MFI status of all those.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Ivetic, I don't know whether I made a
2 mistake here. Can I -- you were talking about all four of these
3 exhibits, isn't it so?
4 MR. IVETIC: I was talking about all four, but as I believe we
5 discussed yesterday, I think that counsel is right that the soil,
6 explosives, and blood tissue are related to the one from --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: 735.
8 MR. IVETIC: -- 1735, that's I believe --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes.
10 MR. IVETIC: -- correct. But that the others do contain -- do
11 contain opinions from experts that are not identified to be able to
12 determine which are from the witness, which are from experts, whether
13 those experts are ones that are appearing or not appearing. But the ones
14 that are not appearing, I think counsel is correct, are limited to that
15 one exhibit, P1735 MFI'd.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: So the others -- the experts quoted in there are
17 going to be called?
18 MR. IVETIC: Are on the list. Whether they will be called or not
19 [overlapping speakers] --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure. They're on the list, yeah. Okay.
21 That's fine. [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. IVETIC: Microphone, Your Honour, I think.
23 MR. JEREMY: That's correct, Your Honours, no re-examination.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. IVETIC: I forgot to tender 1D1126, Your Honours. That's the
1 only reason that I'm still standing.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].
3 Sorry, my mike doesn't come on. Do you have an objection to
4 that, Mr. Jeremy?
5 MR. JEREMY: Just to clarify whether Mr. Ivetic is tendering the
6 entire video or just the portions that he's played.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Ivetic.
8 MR. IVETIC: I believe the practice has been to tender the entire
9 videos. Back when I did excerpts I was told that was not what we're
10 doing in this courtroom, that we should identify in the transcript the
11 portions of the entire video that are played so that's how I've
12 proceeded. Please instruct me if I'm wrong.
13 MR. JEREMY: Well, I think the video is about 20 minutes long and
14 we've seen a couple of minutes of it. It's ...
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I suppose you'll be tendering just the portion
16 that you played, Mr. Ivetic, because we didn't see the rest of that
18 MR. IVETIC: Agreed, Your Honour, but then the Prosecution has
19 tendered multiple videos in their entirety for which we've only seen
20 portions thereof, so I'm a little confused, then, as to which is the
21 procedure. I thought that we were told to identify in the record the
22 start and the end times, which I did, so that the persons going back
23 could recreate what was seen in the courtroom. But if I'm wrong, I'll --
24 please tell me and I'll just -- I'll comply with whatever order is given.
25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, if Mr. Ivetic wishes to tender the
1 whole video, we have no problem with that. Presumably he would also be
2 tendering the transcript and I've taken a quick look at that and I see
3 it's been taken from the web site of the source. I think it is actually
4 inaccurate in a couple of places. There were quotes --
5 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
6 MR. JEREMY: -- misattributed. So I'd like that to be MFI'd and
7 verified by Defence before being formally admitted.
8 MR. IVETIC: That's fine. He's correct, there are
9 misattributions as to the speakers that I noted at least twice.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. You did indicate that a little
11 earlier. The video will be admitted in its entirety and you'll file a
12 corrected transcript.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Verified by CLSS.
15 MR. IVETIC: I will.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
17 Then, Mr. Manning, that brings us to the end --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Registrar, you were standing up.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 1D1126 receives number
21 D330, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. D330.
23 Yeah, Mr. Manning, that brings us to the end of your testimony.
24 Thank you so much for coming to testify at the Tribunal and for answering
25 all the questions from the Bench and from the parties. You are now
1 excused, and please travel well back home.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours. I appreciate it.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then it is time for the break.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, it is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness
8 after the break?
9 MR. JEREMY: We are, Your Honours. Ms. Hochhauser will be
10 leading the next witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, who will testify in closed session?
12 MR. JEREMY: Yes, I believe that's correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break and we resume at 20 minutes to
15 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto would like to put something on the
18 record. Let's start with that first.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Judge.
20 Madam Registrar indicated that maybe the record did not show
21 clearly what happened to ID 1126. The entire tape is admitted into
22 evidence. It is not MFI'd, it's admitted. The transcript must still be
23 corrected and uploaded. Can the record show that.
24 Thank you, Judge.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn into closed session for the next
1 witness to be called by the Prosecution.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I, in the meantime, make a correction for the
3 transcript. It's not ID 1126, but 1D1126 which is D330.
4 [Closed session]
11 Pages 14305-14317 redacted. Closed session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: You can see what co-operation between the parties is
4 able to achieve.
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I said. That's what we achieved.
7 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the
8 12th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III, but
9 the public is already informed that we will immediately return into
10 closed session after we have resumed.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of
13 July, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.