1 Wednesday, 17 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. McCloskey, you're on your feet.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes good morning, Mr. President, everyone.
12 I just have a response to you on your question about what
13 happened to the attestation for Witness RM144 that we filed quite late.
14 And we -- we -- what we've been able to track down is that we got out of
15 the gate on time, and it got attested relatively quickly with four
16 others, and somehow when it came to filing the motion, the other four got
17 filed on time, and this one somehow got put on a shelf and fell through
18 the cracks.
19 We think we got a friendly reminder phone call and -- in January,
20 and so we found it and filed it in January where we obviously should have
21 sought leave to file it late, which we did not.
22 And that's the -- that's what I've been able to discover.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The "somehow," of course, is the puzzling
25 Mr. Lukic, you have ... you can say it is 1-0 so if you a somehow
1 lost thing, we will consider a somehow explanation perhaps. Let's see
2 whether you need it.
3 Mr. Lukic, you wanted to raise a matter as well.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Regarding your question from yesterday, P1451,
5 that was protected witness, I think so ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Shouldn't we then -- yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: I just can tell you that with -- the checkup done by
8 the Prosecution is okay.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes, so then there's -- that's dealt with
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, one last thing, it's this
12 attestation has been uploaded into e-court under document ID 0684-4197.
13 It was provisionally admitted pending uploading into e-court.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we need it to replace the -- the other one,
16 the one that's not signed off.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could you repeat the ID number again, Mr.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, 0684-4197.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the ERN number. Or is it -- ID number, yes.
21 I give further instructions to Madam Registrar soon.
22 Any other matter? If not, then could the witness be escorted
23 into the courtroom.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Obradovic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
3 the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony.
4 And Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.
5 Mr. Lukic.
6 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 MR. LUKIC: [No interpretation].
12 [Interpretation] P14 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: It's P1469. Okay. We need page 19 in B/C/S, and
16 page 12, the bottom part, in English.
17 Also, we need the bottom part of B/C/S version.
18 Q. [Interpretation] General, in paragraph -- or, rather, on the
19 second paragraph from the bottom of the page, and in the English version
20 the last two lines on the page, we read the following:
21 "By the end of March, 1995, the Herzegovina Corps Command shall
22 plan operations for reaching the Neretva River valley, termed Krivaja 95,
23 and for reaching the coast-line in the Prevlaka-Cavtat sector, called
24 More 95?"
25 We see that Krivaja 95 was one of the tasks of the Herzegovina
1 Corps. Was it customary to give the same name to different operations or
2 is it more likely based on your experience, that the Drina Corps chose a
3 name for the operation independently and chose the name Drina 95?
4 A. In a directive, certain operations are assigned code-names, and
5 different operations and different tasks always must have different
6 names. I do not know who it was in the Drina Corps who chose the name
7 Krivaja for this operation here. As far as I remember, in the directive,
8 no one operation with which the Drina Corps was tasked was called
10 Q. Exactly. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now could we please get the last page
12 of this document in both languages. In B/C/S, it's the previous page.
13 And I need item 8 in both languages.
14 Q. Here we see that Directive 7, signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic,
15 stipulates that corps commanders decisions for -- must be sent for
16 approval to the VRS Main Staff commander seven days before the operation.
17 If the commander of the Main Staff was not informed, who would be
18 the one to blame in context of the Krivaja operation?
19 A. The commander who did not submit the combat documents for a
20 certain operation for approval as mentioned here in this item 8 of the
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just ask for clarification, Mr. Lukic.
23 Mr. Obradovic, at page 3, line 5, you say:
24 "As far as I remember, in the directive, no one operation with
25 which the Drina Corps was tasked was called Krivaja."
1 The Krivaja that we saw now on this directive, it's related to
2 Herzegovina Corps? Okay. Thank you.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, so you have my response.
4 [Interpretation] Could we now get Exhibit P1465. It's a
5 Prosecution exhibit.
6 Q. General, we see that this is an order for active combat
7 activities of the Drina Corps Command dated the 2nd of July, 1995. We
8 see "Krivaja 95" in the heading.
9 Is it true that the Main Staff of the VRS is not mentioned among
10 the recipients?
11 A. This document is sent to the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the
12 1st Bratunac Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the
13 1st Light Infantry Brigade. I don't remember what BR stands for. And
14 the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade as well as the 5th Mixed Artillery
15 Regiment. The Main Staff is not [Realtime transcript read in error "in
16 the"] mentioned.
17 It could be the Birac Light Infantry Brigade, it just occurred to
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just for my understanding, could command
20 of the Drina Corps in any way give orders to the top level? I mean, they
21 were informed about this, isn't it? I mean, why would I expect an order
22 by the Drina Corps to go up rather than down in the line of hierarchy?
23 I'm just missing the point.
24 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, they received a copy of this order, so
1 what's, then, the use -- at least whether they received it or not, it
2 says at the end of the document that they -- that they received it, that
3 it was sent to them.
4 MR. LUKIC: I will clarify that with the witness with the next
5 question then.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. General, is it true that, in keeping with Directive 7, the
9 Drina Corps Command was supposed to send this order to the Main Staff of
10 the VRS for approval?
11 A. Yes. But we see that the heading reads "order," and an order is
12 sent to subordinate units. On the last page, there should be a mention
13 of the one meant to approve this.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page,
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Obradovic, could I ask a clarification of your
17 previous answer.
18 You said that the Main Staff would have been -- would have to
19 approve this. I wonder whether they also would have to approve it if the
20 order was given pursuant to instructions or orders that came from the
21 Main Staff. Then there would be no need to approve. Or would there be
22 such need?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in practice, all
24 decisions and plans in order to execute combat actions are approved by
25 the superior officer. If it's in the topographical map, then in the
1 upper right-hand corner would be written "decision by" so-and-so and then
2 "approved by" such and such a person, and then in the right-hand lower
3 corner, it would be signed by the commander who planned the activities.
4 His signature would be there. And so the text of the order itself should
5 be reviewed in order to have it approved.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I may miss the point. Planning an operation is not
7 the same as executing an operation, is there?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The directive orders the
9 Drina Corps to carry out a certain operation under a certain code-name,
10 when the time comes to implement that task. Up until that time they
11 would have carried out all the preparations, the planning, organising,
12 materiel logistical support, and then the documents pursuant to which
13 they are going to be executing the operation are then submitted to the
14 superior command for approval.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Could we look at Directive 7/1, please. This is P1470, please.
18 Q. We can see this is a document of the 31st March of 1995 from the
19 Main Staff of Army of Republika Srpska, directive for further operations,
20 operative number 7/1.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at page 5 in both
22 versions in e-court, please.
23 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 5.3. There's no need to read
24 the whole thing.
25 Have you read it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The tasks here are those intended for the Drina Corps; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it correct that this directive, the document by the Main Staff
6 of the VRS, does not provide for any kind of actions in relation to the
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's just not true on the face of
9 the document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then assist Mr. Lukic in referring to the
11 exact place where it is ...
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It says in the first couple of lines:
13 "Prevent enemy breakthrough along selected operative tactical
14 axes ... persistent defence and active combat actions ..." and -- "on the
15 north-west part of the front and around the enclaves ..."
16 So it is anticipating combat actions as Directive 7 did, around
17 the enclaves.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
19 MR. LUKIC: My question was not artfully posed but ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do it artfully.
21 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
22 Q. [Interpretation] General, is it correct that the VRS directive
23 does not provide for the entry of the forces into the enclaves, the
24 capture of the enclaves, the separation of the enclaves, that that is not
25 the task that is issued to the Drina Corps?
1 Is that how you interpret it? Because we see here what --
2 actually what do you see from this part of Directive 7/1? What was the
3 task the Drina Corps?
4 A. This directive in paragraph 5.3 does not contain such an
5 assignment. The emphasis here is on persistent defence and active
6 actions in order to die down certain forces. But the focus is to carry
7 out the operation Spreca first and -- in the first stage. And then in
8 the second stage of the operation, to reach the Vlasenica-Kladanj line
9 and then regroup forces and in joint action with the East Bosnia,
10 1st Krajina and the PVO forces, these forces are defined by the directive
11 as the main force of the army. In the second and third phases of the
12 operation is infiltrating strong groups into the enemy rear and
13 introducing strong army mechanised forces, execute an attack in the
14 general direction of Kalesija-Dubrava-Tuzla, and reach the village of
15 Serici, Zivinice, Jasicak, Ravno hill positions as soon as possible,
16 thereby cutting off forces of the 2nd Corps of the B and H Army south of
17 that line. And then support here is mentioned from the air force and the
18 PVO, and the corps IKM is to be decided by the corps commander.
19 Therefore, in this directive the Drina Corps comprises the main body of
20 the force together with the 1st Krajina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps, the
21 air force and the anti-aircraft defence, i.e., the PVO.
22 In 5.5 here - could you please bring the page back - it talks
23 about the rest of the forces.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If the witnesses says something about 5.5, we would
25 like to have 5.5 on the English screen -- in English on the screen as
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes, please continue.
5 A. In item 5.5, the rest of the VRS forces, comprised by the
6 2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Herzegovina Corps,
7 colon, and then the task is given, plan and execute tasks given in
8 Directive number 7.
9 So these three corps would be entrusted with the rest of the
10 assignments from Directive 7, whereas the other ones that I mentioned
11 before are going to be proceeding according to the tasks noted in the
12 Directive 7.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the corps that the
14 witness mentioned were too fast to repeat.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the names of the corps you
16 mentioned last.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just for the auxiliary forces or
18 for the main force?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think for the -- the main forces. The assignments
20 in Directive 7.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The auxiliary forces are 5.5. That
22 is the 2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and the
23 Herzegovina Corps.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And could you now give the names of the other ones.
25 The other ones who were supposed to further plan and execute what is
1 found in Directive 7.1.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Directive 7/1, the main body of
3 the force comprises the 1st Krajina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps, the
4 Drina Corps, and the air force and anti-aircraft defence forces. These
5 were the forces that were supposed to take part in the operation of
6 strategic importance, carrying the code-name Sadejstvo, co-ordinated
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I return for a second to the
9 previous document. That is, the --
10 MR. LUKIC: Just clarify one thing.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
12 MR. LUKIC: If the gentleman can see 5.3 again on his screen
13 because the name of the operation is Spreca 95. I think ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: No loud speaking.
15 MR. LUKIC: The general couldn't hear me. That's what he was ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. What you said just now, Sadejstvo, you meant Spreca 95?
19 A. No. The Spreca tasks were supposed to be carried out by the
20 Drina Corps before launching the Sadejstvo 95 operation.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And then I would have -- we just looked a minute ago
23 to the order for active combat activities, operation number 1 issued by
24 the Command of the Drina Corps, 2nd of July, 1995. That was the one
25 which was not addressed to the Main Staff, although the Main Staff was to
1 receive a --
2 MR. LUKIC: It's P1465.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- copy.
4 You told us that this should have been sent for approval to the
5 Main Staff first.
6 Now, if the Main Staff is informed about this order by a copy
7 sent to it, and if there would have been any disapproval or any criticism
8 on it not having been sent for approval first, what would be the response
9 by the Main Staff?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly, if
11 it was sent, and if there are any corrections in the documents to be made
12 that were planned and drafted by the Drina Corps, then this is something
13 that would be corrected in the Main Staff. If not, approval would be
14 given to proceed according to the documents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would there not be a message: Hey, you guys down
16 there, you are giving an order which has not been approved yet. You
17 should refrain from doing that.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot really go
19 into that because I wasn't present. What I'm talking about is the way it
20 should be according to the rules. As for what actually happened, I don't
21 know that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm still confused. Is this in accordance with the
23 rules? It says nowhere, We are seeking your approval. They're issuing
24 orders. And you told us that that should have been approved first before
25 giving such orders. So it seems to be not in accordance with the rules,
1 as you described them to us.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you didn't
4 They draft the documents formally the way it should be according
5 to the instructions on the work of the staffs and commands, and they
6 draft the text. They represent the decision graphically on a
7 topographical map after that.
8 If there are no objections or remarks, then they are told to
9 proceed according to the documents which they sent. If there are any
10 remarks or objections, then corrections would be made, and then the task
11 would be carried out according to the corrected documents.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now do I then have to understand the
13 2nd of July document, which we looked at earlier, to be sent for approval
14 rather than to be issued to the subordinate units?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A copy of the document would remain
16 at the corps command. Another copy would be sent to the Main Staff. If
17 approval is received to proceed according to the documents, then the
18 document would be photocopied and submitted to the subordinate units, and
19 those who are supposed to take part in the execution of the assignment
20 would be given their assignments.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So, if finally, this order would be executed -- no.
22 Let me rephrase my question.
23 First, this order would not be delivered to the subordinate units
24 until after approval would have been received. Is that correctly
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it should be, according
2 to the rules.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, would that approval be given in writing,
4 or could it also be given in any other way?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An approval can be given via the
6 communications devices, or it can be issued in writing.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So just a radio communication would have been
8 sufficient to approve so that the order could be further executed. Is
9 that correctly understood?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I am a bit confused. Because you said
12 earlier that the approval was given by the higher level of command by a
13 signature on the topographical map. That means not in normal writing,
14 not by telegram, not by phone call, nor not by Motorola or whatever.
15 What is true?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The instruction on the working map
17 defines the graphic representation and the narrative part and so on.
18 But, in practice, it can happen that the organs of the staff sector
19 inspect a plan and suggest to the commander that everything is all right,
20 so that the commander, who may not even be at the Main Staff, orally
21 approves the use of these documents that were sent to the Main Staff by
22 the subordinate commander.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand, if no correction is received on
24 any of the points, and if an oral approval would have been given through
25 radio communication, you could just go ahead.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Earlier in a trial I was
2 explaining the role of the staff sector in inspecting the documents of
3 the subordinate commands in the context of approving a decision. When
4 they inspect all of that and inform the commander or the chief of
5 Main Staff that it is okay, then he approves.
6 If there are -- if corrections must be made, then the documents
7 are sent back for further processing.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we clarify the Defence's position on this?
11 It's incumbent upon them to tell their -- to put the case to the witness
12 so the suggestion -- I can't tell but it appears to be that the
13 Main Staff did not approve this plan?
14 JUDGE ORIE: That was at least what I understood to be the
15 suggestion implied in the questions.
16 Mr. Lukic, could you tell us --
17 MR. LUKIC: I will follow with my questions so it will be clear,
18 I think. I would rather the witness testify rather than me.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the witness can -- the witness cannot
20 testify about the position of the Defence.
21 MR. LUKIC: Our position that this document never reached
22 Main Staff of the VRS.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then perhaps I should have let you first
24 ask --
25 MR. LUKIC: Perhaps.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- the witness. Perhaps that was not a very wise
2 decision. But let's proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: That's what I tried to do. Okay. Thank you.
4 Let's have the last page of this document on our screens.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Let me first ask you, General, do you know if
6 this document ever made it to the Main Staff of the VRS?
7 A. I have no knowledge about that.
8 Q. Can it be inferred from this document that, at the same time it
9 was sent to the Main Staff of the VRS, was copied seven-fold and these
10 copies were delivered to the forward command post number 1 of the KDK and
11 the rest of them as listed here?
12 A. Well, we can read to the left of the signature block that this
13 was typed in two copies and delivered to: One, original, in the archives
14 of the Drina Corps Command; and two, Main Staff of the VRS.
15 Below that there's an additional remark saying, "seven copies
16 made and delivered to: Forward command post number 1 of the Drina Corps
17 Command; the 1st Zvornik" --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you don't have to read out that list. We
19 see that there are seven units mentioned there.
20 Please proceed. I mean, proceed with your answer.
21 The question was whether you can infer from this document that,
22 if I understood you well, Mr. Lukic, that simultaneously the copies were
23 sent to the Main Staff and to the subordinate units.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you answer, General.
1 A. No, I cannot. We saw in the heading of the document the date of
2 the 2nd of July, I think. I don't know when the subordinate units
3 received it. I'd have to see some document of the subordinate units to
4 be able to tell whether it was received simultaneously.
5 Q. Let us now focus on this remark: "Seven copies made and
6 delivered to ..."
7 This refers to the past; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So this document of the 2nd of July tells us that, at that point
10 in time, it already been delivered.
11 A. Yes. This is a reference to a past time.
12 MR. LUKIC: Can I move on or you have more questions,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one more question.
15 The same - at least in the English translation - is said for the
16 Main Staff of the VRS. Would that mean that they would have -- it would
17 have been delivered to them already and that the original was already
18 delivered to the archive?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably. This narrative part of
20 the decision of the commander of the Drina Corps is accompanied by a
21 graphic representation on a topographic map. It cannot be sent over a
22 coded communications channel. You would have to give that to a courier.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that because it says "seven copies
24 delivered to" that it had been delivered already.
25 Now I ask you whether the words "typed in two copies and
1 delivered to" would not then have the same meaning, that it had been
2 delivered already.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it would apply to all of
4 this. This is either a note saying that one copy goes to the Main Staff
5 and another to the archives. And, yes, it says "delivered to."
6 It doesn't say "to be delivered to."
7 So this is a reference to the past.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this is a totally new concept for me, that you
9 sent a document to say that the same document was sent or delivered.
10 That is puzzling me highly, just for you to know, Mr. Lukic.
11 And I see that the typewriting seems to be similar for this last
12 portion in the original compared to the previous text above the
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it true, General, does this document tell us that even if it
17 was delivered to the Main Staff of the VRS, and since we see that the
18 document was drafted on the 2nd of July, 1992 --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1995.
20 Could counsel please repeat the last part of his question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the last part of
22 your question. But if you want to consult with your -- if there's any
23 need to consult with Mr. Mladic, then ...
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question.
25 Q. Is it true that even if this document was delivered to the
1 Main Staff of the VRS and simultaneously to the seven addresses stated
2 below, they didn't wait for an approval of the Main Staff of the VRS?
3 A. That is possible if the one who signed the order was sure that
4 the Main Staff would approve this.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment of patience, please. I
7 must consult my client.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have on page -- yeah,
12 page, I think, 17, line 8, we have an English translation that the
13 document Krivaja 95 was drafted on July 2nd. And I don't know if that's
14 a translation issue or not. But there's no mention of drafted like there
15 was on the directive. We -- we have a date of July 2nd on it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which does not exclude that it was drafted
17 that day but at least it's dated the 2nd of July.
18 Mr. Lukic, you would agree with that.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I don't think that in the answer of the
21 witness it -- there's any reason to revisit that.
22 Please proceed.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I get clarification, Mr. Lukic, before you go
25 Page 17, line 15, that last question you put to the witness, you
1 said: "... they didn't wait for an approval of the Main Staff of the
3 I want to get -- and the witness said in response:
4 "That is the possible if the one who signed the order was sure
5 that the Main Staff would approve this."
6 Now when you -- when you -- when you say that, sir, wait -- they
7 didn't wait before what happened?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, the question did not -- they didn't
9 wait to do what or to --
10 MR. LUKIC: To start with the action.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That was not part of the -- did you
12 understand the question in that way, Witness, that they would not wait to
13 start executing the order. Is that what your answer relates to?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please explain.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked before it was sent to the
19 subordinate units in accordance with the heading. And we saw the date of
20 the 2nd there. So that it's clear that they didn't wait for a response
21 from the Main Staff before they sent it to the subordinate units.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And if you sent it to the -- sent it to the
23 subordinate units without any reservation, it would mean that they would
24 act in accordance with the order. Is that correctly understood?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. Do you know anything about any direct contacts between
4 President Karadzic and General Krstic in connection with this operation?
5 A. Only -- I know of it only from an appearance of
6 President Karadzic on TV. And he said - I'm paraphrasing now - that he
7 ordered General Krstic to implement the Srebrenica operation. Or that
8 he -- he ordered him to plan it. But that was said on TV.
9 Q. Do you know that General Mladic received the required documents
10 to the -- for this operation of the Drina Corps only on the 13th of July?
11 A. I don't know that because I arrived at the Main Staff only on the
13 Q. Well, that's why I asked you. You may have learned of it later.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to put a follow-up question to the
16 You were asked about direct contacts between President Karadzic
17 and General Krstic. Do you know anything about any direct contacts
18 between General Mladic and General Krstic, in connection with this
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, one of your questions has not received an
23 answer yet.
24 The witness said that he doesn't know that General Mladic
25 received the required documents for this operation only on the
1 13th of July because he arrived only at the 17th at the Main Staff.
2 Then your question was whether he learned about it later. And
3 that question has not been answered yet.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did answer. You may not have
5 heard it. I said no.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was not on the record.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [In English] I think it's a break time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly is time for the break.
11 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
12 We'll take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Obradovic.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
18 Meanwhile, I use the time to give the further instructions to
19 Madam Registrar in relation to P387, which was admitted conditionally
20 pending attestation and declaration.
21 Doc ID 0684-4197 should replace the English version of P387,
22 which is now without attestation and declaration. And I hereby confirm
23 that, once this is replaced, that P387 is now finally admitted into
24 evidence. The attestation and declaration are not in the B/C/S
25 translation but that is usual practice.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
4 I need make one correction in the transcript. And maybe we
5 should have P1465 on our screens as well, the first page.
6 The correction in transcript is -- should be -- be made on the
7 page 4 --
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
9 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Page 4. Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: My question was in line 7, so we know -- what we are
12 talking about. That, in this document, on our screen, P1465, and my
13 question was: Is it true that the Main Staff of the VRS is not mentioned
14 among the recipients?
15 Then the answer registered in line 13 is: "The Main Staff is in
16 the mentioned."
17 And the answer was: The Main Staff is not mentioned.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Among the addressees.
19 MR. LUKIC: Among addressees.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Although the Main Staff is mentioned at the --
21 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- very bottom of the paragraph.
23 MR. LUKIC: -- this is only for addressees.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is I think there's no disagreement,
25 whatever -- of whatever kind as to question and answer and the content of
1 the document.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] General, one question out of context. I was
5 going through my questions now at the break. You were asked about
6 Warrant Officer Zeljkovic yesterday. He was one of those who signed the
7 directive. Actually, he typed it out.
8 A. Yes. I think that he is a sergeant. I think that's what it says
9 there, sergeant first class.
10 Q. And Staff-Sergeant Zeljkovic, who was he subordinated to?
11 A. Staff-Sergeant Zeljkovic was in the logistics sector, and I think
12 he was in the technical service.
13 Q. I wanted to ask you something --
14 A. I know that he was trained for data entry into the computer.
15 Perhaps I'm mistaken about the technical service and the logistics
16 sector. I'm not quite sure, but I think that's where he was.
17 Q. Thank you. And now I wanted to ask you something about the
18 10th Sabotage Detachment. This unit was discussed. We have that in the
20 In the professional sense, to whom was the 10th Sabotage
21 Detachment subordinated? In the professional sense.
22 A. In the professional sense, the sabotage detachment was
23 subordinated to the chief of the intelligence administration.
24 Q. In 1995, who was that?
25 A. Colonel Petar Salapura.
1 Q. And who was the immediate superior to Petar Salapura?
2 A. That was part of the security and intelligence administration
3 headed by General -- Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.
4 Q. Is it correct -- actually, you can tell me. Who suggests the use
5 of the 10th Sabotage Detachment to General Mladic?
6 A. Everything that has to do with the activities of that --
7 proposals for the use of that unit is -- are given by the chief of the
8 administration. Just as the chief of the combat arms of armoured units
9 or artillery would propose the use of artillery or their own combat arm.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I ask -- the chief of the
11 administration, in this context, would that be General Tolimir?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Tolimir is at the centre --
13 at the head of the sector. The sector had two administrations: The
14 intelligence administration and the security administration.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, would it be Colonel Salapura
16 himself who would -- let me just check.
17 Could you give a name to the -- where you said the head of the
18 administration? Who would be that -- who would that be?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of the intelligence
20 administration was Colonel Petar Salapura.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. And if the 10th Sabotage Detachment were to be
25 resubordinated to the Drina Corps, who would it answer to? To the
1 commander of the Main Staff or to the commander of the Drina Corps?
2 A. Each unit that is resubordinated, including the
3 10th Sabotage Detachment, or the sabotage detachment, when it reports to
4 the commander of the unit to which it is being resubordinated, until the
5 time the task is completed is under the command and executes assignments
6 of the commander to whom it is resubordinated.
7 Q. And, in this case, that would be the commander of the
8 Drina Corps.
9 A. Yes, if the unit is resubordinated to him.
10 Q. And who commands the military police of the Bratunac Brigade?
11 A. The commander to whom the police brigade under -- under whom the
12 police brigade is, and that would be the commander of the
13 Bratunac Brigade.
14 Q. And let's say that there is a military police platoon in the
15 battalion; is that correct?
16 A. By establishment, a battalion does not have a police component.
17 Q. All right. Very well. I found in somebody's answer earlier that
18 it does, but thank you for the correction.
19 So what would be the first lowest-ranking unit that would have a
20 military police component?
21 A. Brigade. A regiment or a brigade.
22 Q. Thank you. And how does the reporting, then, proceed? From the
23 unit -- from the commander of the military police unit within the
24 brigade, who does that go to?
25 A. That's not a komandant, it's a komandir because it is usually a
1 military police company so all the reporting is given to the komandant,
2 the commander.
3 Q. The commander of what?
4 A. In the professional sense, it would go to the superior at the
5 corps command or the intelligence organ -- actually, the security organ,
6 excuse me. Mostly for those tasks that have to do with
7 counter-intelligence work and tasks of -- of a criminal investigation
9 Q. If you know - and if you don't, just say you don't know - so how
10 detailed are the reports that come from that level to Colonel Salapura?
11 A. I cannot answer that question.
12 Q. Well, if you can, all right; but if not, just say that you
13 cannot, that you don't know.
14 A. I don't know the answer to that question.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since this is not a part of the
17 exhibit admitted as your statement, can we look at 1D1134, in e-court,
19 1D1134 should be the transcript dated the 31st of March, 2011,
20 from the Tolimir case. We need to look at page 106 of this transcript,
21 and that would correspond to transcript page 12194.
22 Q. My learned friend Mr. McCloskey asked you in line 9:
23 [In English] "Q. And my question about prisoners of war, we have
24 seen military police guarding and sometimes questioning prisoners of war.
25 Would that be a part of their duty?
1 "A. Yes. Probably that was done by members of the crime
2 departments on the strength of the military police."
3 [Interpretation] And would you stand by this part of your
4 statement today?
5 Would you stand by this part of your statement today?
6 A. I think that they're the most professional ones in order to take
7 statements and in order to question the prisoners.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Your question was, does he stand by that
9 statement. He hasn't answered that.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. Could you please answer with a yes or no. Would you agree with
12 this part of your statement today?
13 A. Yes. I stand by the part that pertains to the taking of
14 statements, yes.
15 Q. What about guarding?
16 A. Guarding is not the exclusive task of the military police. Any
17 fighter could do that job. And usually members of the military police
18 unit, even when they're recruited, need to be a bit more capable than
19 just regular fighters. So that it's not efficient to use that personnel
20 for guard-duty assignments.
21 Q. But would you agree that the military police is trained both for
22 guard duty and for escorting prisoners of war?
23 A. Yes. And in peacetime and -- however, in wartime, all fighters
24 can -- can do that; but as far as bringing people in and questioning
25 them, that would be their assignment, their task.
1 Q. And what is the role of the security organ and the intelligence
2 organ in the professional sense? For example, as it relates to the
3 military police in the Bratunac Brigade.
4 A. The security and the intelligence organ? Well, the intelligence
5 organ is busy with intelligence-gathering about the opposing side --
6 Q. No, we're talking about the military police, what sort of
7 professional responsibility do they have or don't have, putting forward
9 A. There is a formation in the brigade which is called the
10 reconnaissance company. In the professional sense, it is commanded by
11 the chief of the intelligence sector, the assistant commander for
12 intelligence. And the chief of security, in the professional sense, is
13 in charge of the military police company, for their training, sending
14 them for training, for counter-intelligence work, and so on and so forth.
15 Q. Who is the person who commands that unit?
16 A. Both units are under the command of the brigade commander.
17 Q. You know Momir Nikolic from the Bratunac Brigade, right? You
18 heard of him?
19 A. Yes, I heard of him in connection with a trial.
20 Q. Who was his immediate superior?
21 A. The brigade commander. And along professional lines, that is,
22 the lines of intelligence, the chief of intelligence affairs of the
24 Q. Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic from the Drina Corps, who was his
25 direct superior?
1 A. The corps commander. And along professional lines of security
2 and counter-intelligence, the chief of the security administration of the
3 Main Staff.
4 Q. Do you agree that the chief of the intelligence and security
5 sector of the Main Staff, General Tolimir, cannot issue an order to a
6 military police battalion of the Drina Corps?
7 A. It depends if he was given authority to do so by his superior.
8 Q. We'd have to look at P1783. It's your testimony from the Tolimir
9 case which was admitted as your statement. My question may have been
10 less than precise.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Page 108, please, in e-court. That
12 should correspond to transcript page 12196. Then we'll need the
13 following page, 12196.
14 Line 24, I'll read it out:
15 [In English] "The chief of an administration may not issue a task
16 to the military police battalion within the Drina Corps. This is within
17 the authority of the commander. However, through the security organ, in
18 the professional aspect" --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move to the next page.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 Q. "However, through the security organ, in the professional aspect,
22 he can help general, professional, and specialised training in order to
23 enable the military police to perform their tasks in a professional way.
24 But when we are talking about assigning tasks, that is something done by
25 the commander."
1 [Interpretation] My question may have been insufficiently clear.
2 Do you stand by this statement of yours in the Tolimir case, when
3 you say that he was in no position to issue orders?
4 A. Yes, I stand by that. But you gave an example of brigades and
5 asked about a military police company and a recon company. They are in
6 the exclusive authority of the brigade commander. So only the commander
7 is authorised to command these units.
8 Talking about professional lines, they have to do with specific
9 types of tasks, but that does not involve commanding.
10 Q. Is it also true that Colonel Beara from the security
11 administration, as part of the sector headed by General Tolimir, could
12 not issue orders to the military police battalion of the Drina Corps?
13 A. It's the same as in the previous example. It's exclusively up to
14 the corps commander.
15 Q. All this applies to the military police companies of the Zvornik
16 and Bratunac Brigades; right?
17 A. Yes. They are commanded by the brigade commanders.
18 Q. Thank you. We're done with the military police.
19 Now I'll briefly deal with the period before the operations in
20 and around the enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica.
21 Do you know that at a certain point the Main Staff of the VRS -
22 that is, the security of the Main Staff - was attacked from these
24 A. In the second half of June 1995, before I returned from my
25 sick-leave, I think it was on the 26th of June, nine sabotage and
1 terrorist groups were infiltrated from Zepa and the surrounding areas.
2 Then the communications regiment and the motorised regiment had seven
3 dead and 12 wounded. Among the wounded, there was also Major Knezevic.
4 I don't remember his first name. But he was a member of the
5 Protection Regiment.
6 Q. How far was the Main Staff of the VRS from Zepa?
7 A. Well, I can't tell you precisely.
8 Q. Well, roughly.
9 A. 15, 20 kilometres. But those groups were very close to the
10 Main Staff, which was at Crna Rijeka. As a result, the soldiers of
11 the -- these units providing security to the Main Staff, that is, the
12 67th Communications Regiment and the 65th Protection Regiment, came to
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel please start
15 over with his question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please re-start your question, Mr. Lukic.
17 Interpreters did not catch it.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We now first need P23. It's a
19 demilitarisation agreement for Srebrenica signed by General Ratko Mladic,
20 as we see, then General Sefer Halilovic, in the presence of
21 General Philippe Morillon.
22 Could we please get the last page with the signatures.
23 Q. While you worked at the Main Staff and did your job, what -- how
24 did -- what do you think, how did the Serbian side interpret this
25 agreement? Were the persons who signed it in such positions as to be
1 able to bind all three sides? Was General Mladic's signature binding for
2 the Serbian side or Halilovic's signature for the Bosniak side?
3 A. The signatures of these two persons from the VRS and the BH army
4 were binding.
5 General Mladic was not to touch the protected zone. Sefer
6 Halilovic was to conduct a demilitarisation. The same applies to
7 General Morillon. And no combat activities were allowed from the
8 protected zone. The precondition was demilitarisation.
9 Q. But the protected zone was never demilitarised; right?
10 A. It wasn't. Due to the huge losses, within three years after the
11 signature of this agreement, Serbian villages around Bratunac suffered a
12 lot, and even soldiers of the VRS came to harm. I spoke about the events
13 before July - that is, on the 26th of June - nine sabotage and terrorist
14 groups were infiltrated. You know what that meant, in terms of fear
15 among the Serbian population. They were -- people were killed and their
16 property looted and destroyed.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, part of your question is about who was
19 competent to sign for whom, which seems to be a legal issue. That's one.
20 We have submissions of the parties and despite the criticism by
21 the Defence that we were making up our minds too early, what we wanted to
22 have is a proper understanding of the context of many questions put to
23 witnesses as they are today.
24 And, second, the remainder of the evidence you are eliciting now
25 seems to be very repetitious. We have heard that many, many times, and
1 we did not understand from the re-examination of the witnesses by the
2 Prosecution that there was great dispute about such activities.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It is fundamentally
4 uncontested [Realtime transcript read in error "contested"] this -- these
5 issues as I stated in the opening statement and many times.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And if it will be the third time or the fourth time,
7 but I think it is now the tenth time that we hear this evidence,
8 Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Sorry if I was not clear, but my main intention is to
10 elicit from this gentleman how VRS side understood the signature of
11 Mr. Morillon.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should ask that question to the --
13 MR. LUKIC: I did.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well ... could you assist me in where exactly you
15 did it.
16 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. LUKIC: It's in -- on page 31, line 12. I said, I asked:
19 While you worked at the Main Staff and did your job --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, Were the signatures binding, and you
21 asked about Mladic and Halilovic. You didn't say a word about
22 Morillon --
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I did. Maybe it's not registered.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Morillon was not a party to the agreement, a
25 witness to the agreement, so focussed questions in that respect I would
1 not mind but -- and that does not in any way change what I said after
2 that, that what happened, attacks on villages, et cetera --
3 MR. LUKIC: Now I see that -- sorry. Now I see that part of my
4 question is missing.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least it was not dealt with in the answer,
6 so then would you have insisted on a complete answer to your questions if
7 you were focussed [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 MR. LUKIC: I think that the witness also dealt with Mr. Morillon
9 in his answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see where he does so.
11 These two persons he talks about. Then he talks about Mladic in
12 the end. He says, "the same applies to General Morillon." What now "the
13 same" is, is not clear because for Mladic and for Halilovic there were
14 apparently different obligations.
15 So it's at least -- well, let's say, in a positive way it's
16 totally unclear what you asked and what you wanted to elicit.
17 MR. LUKIC: I'll try to clarify. Thanks.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I started that observation with legal
20 MR. LUKIC: And I'm asking the gentleman how it was seen on the
21 Serbian side.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But then please, very precise, what was seen,
23 of course, Morillon was -- had a command position, et cetera, but please
24 try to focus.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope the transcript will clear it up, but I'm
3 quoted as saying that it's "fundamentally contested" when it is not.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I heard you say that this was uncontested.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] You heard this discussion, General. Therefore
8 my question will be short.
9 How did the Serbian side understand the role of General Morillon
10 when he signed this agreement as a witness? Did you understand that
11 UNPROFOR was thereby assuming some duties or not?
12 A. We understood it the following way. General Morillon, as
13 representative of the peacekeeping forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina who have
14 a neutral status, was to monitor whether this agreement was honoured and
15 implemented. That's why their forces were deployed around Zepa. I'm
16 still convinced that the UN failed to create a protected zone --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Did not create a
18 protected zone.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- so that the 28th Division could
20 conduct raids from there and return there after those raids unharmed.
21 And I'm speaking about the 28th Division of the BH army. That's how we
22 understood that.
23 MR. LUKIC: I've finished with this area, so if you have any
24 further questions, Your Honour, I would move on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, I have no further questions apart from that --
1 what we now know is what the witness believe happened. We have not
2 talked about obligations, and we have not a clear analysis -- and perhaps
3 we could not expect this from this witness on obligations and duties of
4 all -- of the two parties and the UNPROFOR as a witness to this, which
5 was assigned certain tasks.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you about this operation directed at Zepa now.
9 Was it planned by the Main Staff; do you know?
10 A. No. I said that in my previous testimony as well. This was an
11 active that was planned at the Command of the Drina Corps, and the
12 control of that operation was entrusted to the Drina Corps.
13 Q. Is it correct that the action was planned at the Main Staff and
14 that you were supposed to monitor the development of the action? Could
15 you tell us a little bit about it.
16 A. Had it been an operation that was supposed to have been
17 controlled by the Main Staff, then the planning, the organisation would
18 also have been carried out by the Main Staff. The actual organisation of
19 the course of the operation was something that was monitored by the
20 Main Staff.
21 Q. You returned on the 17th of July, 1995. So, in that case, you
22 would have personally taken part in the operation, the overseeing of it.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In your testimony, you were asked also about the humanitarian
25 convoys, so that would be the next area that I would ask you to focus on.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We are going to need a new document
2 in e-court, 1D1100. As you can see, this is the Official Gazette of
3 Republika Srpska. We need to look at the next page. This first
5 Q. As you can see here, this is a decision on forming a state
6 committee for co-operation with the United Nations and international
7 humanitarian organisations.
8 First of all, would you agree with me that when you were
9 explaining the humanitarian convoys issue, you did not know that such a
10 state committee was formed and that you did not know what its
11 responsibilities were?
12 A. I heard about the committee, but I was not sure about its
13 composition, and I did not know what exactly its responsibilities were.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could all extra microphones
15 be switched off, please.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. This decision was adopted on the 14th of March, 1995. We will
18 come to the signatories. It was signed by the president of the republic,
19 Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
20 We need to look at Article 6 now, please.
21 Article 6 of the decision which states:
22 "Permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and
23 humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska shall be
24 issued by the co-ordinating body for humanitarian operations, pursuant to
25 committee decisions."
1 Article 7 states:
2 "The committee shall adopt special rules of procedure for issuing
3 permits for the movement of convoys and employees of the UN and
4 humanitarian organisations on the territory of Republika Srpska."
5 In Article 3 - we need to go back a little bit - it states:
6 "Decisions and orders from the committee's jurisdiction are
7 binding for all state organs of Republika Srpska."
8 We now need to look at Article 8. We will also see the
9 signatory, but Article 8 states:
10 "The committee shall submit a quarterly report on its work to the
11 president of the republic."
12 We can see that the date is the 14th of March, 1995, and that
13 it's signed by the president of the republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
14 Of course, the army checked the convoys in the field; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Authorised persons from the units carried out controls as
18 determined by the commanders who -- through whose territory the convoys
19 were passing; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you aware how General Ratko Mladic carried out the
22 instructions or the requests of the committee? We can see on the
23 documents that he would put "yes" or "no" on the documents. Do you know
24 whether this "yes" or "no" was his decision, or was that something that
25 he received as to which convoy should be let through and which one should
2 A. Well, I don't know anything about the communication of
3 General Mladic and others that he was communicating with. All I know are
4 documents that would come from the sector initialed by him. I don't know
5 on which basis such decisions were made though.
6 Q. Now we're going to look at an earlier decision.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at 65 ter P14596, in
8 e-court, please.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please check the number. That can't be
10 correct. It can't be 65 ter and P number.
11 MR. LUKIC: It's 65 ter. It's 65 ter number [Interpretation]
12 65 ter number.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Without the P.
14 MR. LUKIC: Without P, yes.
15 Q. [Interpretation] General, we can see that even though at the top
16 it says "Supreme Headquarters of the Army of Republic of Srpska," it's
17 obvious that the document was issued by the president of the republic,
18 Dr. Radovan Karadzic, which we can see from the signature. And this is
19 also how the interpreter -- how the translators understood it when they
20 were translating it into English.
21 At the bottom of the page in English, it says:
22 "Therefore, I have made the following decision ..."
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we stay on the same page in the
24 B/C/S, and can we move to the next page in English version, please.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed there is only one page.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, it's 65 ter number. So probably we would have
3 to ask the Prosecution to upload the next page. In English at least.
4 But I will just read one paragraph, after this, what we already
5 have translated in English, it's under number 1 what we can see in B/C/S
7 Q. [Interpretation] It states here:
8 "Therefore, I have made the following decision: All permits for
9 the movement of humanitarian convoys, as well as supply convoys for
10 UNPROFOR, will be issued from the office of the Supreme Commander.
11 Before that, the cabinet, the office, will obtain your opinion and other
12 representative opinions."
13 This document is from December 1994.
14 Did you know that already at that time, Dr. Karadzic's office was
15 the only institution that could decide about the passage of humanitarian
16 convoys and UNPROFOR convoys?
17 A. At the time, in 1994, December 1994, I was at the western front,
18 so this is the first time that I'm seeing this document. But it does
19 state in paragraph 2 that all the correspondence of the VRS with
20 international organisations is to proceed through the office of the
21 Supreme Commander. For that purpose, a special fax line will be set up
22 that will be constantly on duty, and that fax was the fax of
23 Colonel Milos Djurdjic that was dedicated to that. From the Supreme
24 Commander's office.
25 Q. It's not in dispute that there were controls and also
1 restrictions on the passage of some convoys. Did you ever hear that
2 convoys that were supposed to be humanitarian convoys transported
3 ammunition and weaponry through the territory of Republika Srpska for the
4 other side?
5 A. Yes. There's an obvious example of that, that I saw at this
6 Tribunal in the Karadzic case when he showed a document during the
7 cross-examination where a member of the peacekeeping forces addresses the
8 Defence Ministry of the B and H Army, stating that in the previous
9 convoy, oxygen tanks incorrectly -- contained incorrectly packed
10 ammunition so that any shifting of the bottles could reveal the presence
11 of ammunition, which did not happen, but he issued a warning that this
12 should not happen again in future and that these -- this -- these items
13 should be packed properly.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at 1D -- in e-court, yes,
15 actually, that is 1D1101.
16 [In English] Or maybe it's break time so we can continue after
17 the break.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will continue after the break. But, first, the
19 witness should be escorted out of the courtroom.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You were speaking about a document but I think we'll call it up
5 This is the staff of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of
6 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We see in the signature block the
7 name of Sefer Halilovic, Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command.
8 And he says it is necessary to approve as many oxygen bottles as
9 possible. They will be transported to Zagreb, and they will be used at
10 the front in Sarajevo.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we get 1D1104 in e-court,
12 please. This is not the document. 1D1104 is what I need.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This is document uploaded under this number.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Okay. Then we'll go back to the
15 previous document. We don't need this one, that's for sure.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I inquire, before you continue, to what extent
17 or where there is dispute about the oxygen bottle incident. So that we
18 can focus on -- because that such an incident happened, whether or not
19 staged, whether or not -- I don't know, but is there a dispute about
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. Nor is there dispute about
22 the bullets and the flour incident or the other few incidents about this
23 sort of thing.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Why not at least agree on this as a basis for
25 any possible further questions.
1 MR. LUKIC: There is no dispute that humanitarian aid was used
2 for smuggling ammunition and weaponry, then --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least that there were such incidents.
4 MR. LUKIC: Hmm ...
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I would agree that there were a few
6 incidents and that the VRS has every right to control those and did so.
7 MR. LUKIC: My mistake was that I would just like to see 1D1103.
8 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid problems in the future, could you
9 make a short list of these incidents so that the parties agree that these
10 incidents took place and to the extent they can agree on whether they
11 were used for smuggling, that we have that somewhere on the record.
12 Mr. Lukic, are you willing to stipulate these matters, together
13 with Mr. McCloskey?
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes, of course.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then that may save quite some time in
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. In any way, we will just propose for
19 those two documents to be admitted into evidence, 1D1101 and 1D1103. So
20 we have it on the record.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, I take it, then, Mr. McCloskey.
22 Madam Registrar, for these two documents.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1101 receives number D334,
24 Your Honours. And document 1D1103 receives number D335, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence.
1 MR. LUKIC: I will not ask any further questions.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Let me now return to the time when you returned
3 to the Main Staff. I'll ask you about Srebrenica.
4 Did you know, while you were at the Main Staff, how many
5 prisoners had been taken in the Srebrenica operation?
6 A. No.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we should return to P1470. This
8 is Directive 7/1 again, but the context is very different.
9 In the B/C/S, I need page 6, and it's the same page in English.
10 Paragraph 4. And it's item 6.3 in B/C/S. It seems that we need the
11 following page in English.
12 Thank you.
13 Q. We see that item 6.3, at the bottom of the page, reads:
14 "When using communications, means of communications" --
15 THE INTERPRETER: We don't see where counsel is reading from.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Seems to be second paragraph of item 6.3, the fourth
17 line, "When using communications systems ..."
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I said paragraph 4 on this page in English
19 version. Yes, yes, thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] "When using communications systems adhere
21 strictly to cryptographic protection procedures and limit the use of
22 handheld and other non-secure radio equipment to the essential minimum,
23 taking care that the enemy is definitely not listening in. Plan and
24 organise the work of a decoy radio network at the level of VRS Main Staff
25 and the corps commands."
1 What does this mean, this use of decoy radio networks?
2 A. In order to protect our own intentions and plans and deceive the
3 enemy, decoy radio networks were set up with a certain number, a certain
4 quantity of devices to confuse the enemy so that he gets a wrong image of
5 the number of units. Because each device would simulate a separate
6 command, or a separate unit. In these decoy radio networks, orders were
7 issued to direct the attention of the enemy in the wrong direction.
8 Q. Do you know if participants in a conversation introduced
9 themselves as being somebody else?
10 A. All the ones operating these decoy radio networks took care for
11 their activity to be as convincing as possible. They would issue orders
12 from the commands to units; whereas, in reality, there were no such
13 commands and no such units.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1577 in e-court, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I ask a question before we move to
17 the next document.
18 In the paragraph following the one you read, there are strict
19 conditions on the secrecy of the planned operations. Do you know what
20 the reason was for that, that even the ICRC could not freely move around,
21 UNHCR, UNPROFOR. They all should be -- should be forbidden any free
23 Perhaps we should go to the next page in B/C/S.
24 Was this common or what was the reason for that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?
1 This says, Mr. President, that all decisions about the intention
2 to conduct operations are protected so that the enemy don't learn about
3 it. It says specifically the movement of members of UNPROFOR and workers
4 of UNHCR, ICRC and so on, whose activities have been noted by
5 intelligence. Which means that our intelligence has a list of persons
6 belonging to these organisations but who, in fact, conduct activities
7 directed against us.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And journalists? During the operation? Was there
9 anything to hide during the operation? That journalists were not allowed
10 to report on.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose that among them too
12 there were people known to intelligence and not favourably inclined to
13 us. These corps mentioned here made up the majority of the forces in
14 this planned operation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know of the existence of any lists of those
16 who you said were unfavorable to you, for example, among the journalists.
17 Because all journalists apparently were banned.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't receive -- I'm not
19 receiving interpretation.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me now in a language you understand?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard it now.
22 I did not have such a list, and probably the intelligence organ
23 had no need to send me one. Such lists would sooner be forwarded to the
24 units --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I didn't ask whether you had
1 such a list. I asked you whether you -- you knew about the existence of
2 such lists.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In conversations, I heard
4 intelligence guys mention such lists. It's part of their
5 counter-intelligence activity.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm addressing both parties. Is there any evidence
7 about the existence of specifically those persons under -- in these
8 groups that would be suspected of not sticking to their mission but to
9 act unfavourably? And I'm talking about UNHCR, ICRC, journalists.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not aware of any -- of any lists about --
11 about that. I do remember comments about individual journalists made
12 over the time period. But lists, no.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic. If you say you would need more time to
14 think about it or to ask members of your team, then, of course, I would
15 accept that.
16 MR. LUKIC: We would have to check probably EDS --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: -- I'm not aware right now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Because the witness relies on it, therefore I
20 wondered whether there was any evidence which would support his -- his
21 evidence, although he was assuming, I think, a few things without actual
23 Let's proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: May I consult with the client for a minute.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may, if he uses his voice at low volume.
1 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Low volume. Low volume means not audible.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 We are finished with this document. We can move on. Thanks.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please move on.
7 MR. LUKIC: Now I need P1577.
8 Q. [Interpretation] General, we can see on the screen in front of us
9 a document of the 24th of October, 1994, from the Main Staff of the Army
10 of Republika Srpska.
11 In your previous testimony, I found something interesting about
12 this document, where you say that the document is not addressed to any of
13 the sectors.
14 Do you see that also in this document?
15 A. No, it's not addressed to any unit or sector.
16 Q. And should it have been addressed to anyone?
17 A. This is an order -- or an instruction, I can't tell. Perhaps
18 it's in the text. Something that should be implemented by subordinate
19 units. Perhaps it's contained at the bottom of the page, but it refers
20 to all the units, the intelligence security units and organs.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, if we could go to the last page to clarify
24 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to the last page, please.
25 Q. [Interpretation] General, we can see that this is signed by
1 General Ratko Mladic. In the original, on the left-hand side, do you
2 recognise General Mladic's signature?
3 A. It says here "for." It does say "Commander, Colonel
4 General Ratko Mladic," but by hand, it's written "za," "for," and signed.
5 Q. Can we agree that this is not General Mladic's signature?
6 A. That's right, it is not.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would now need to look at the
8 first page again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if I can help, it says here in
10 the last sentence:
11 "Forward these instructions and inform of their content all
12 commanders of units and institutions down to battalion level."
13 Meaning down to the regiments and brigades.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I do agree that this is not General Mladic's
16 signature. And there -- you may recall we have heard evidence from a VRS
17 officer who this is.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore --
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
21 A. I'm not sure, but I think this is Zdravko Tolimir's signature.
22 Q. The document does contain the type of work that General Tolimir
23 was doing.
24 A. Yes. It does refer to the work of the organs that he led.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the first page of the
1 document now, please. Can we look at this part of the heading with the
2 numbers, please.
3 Q. Are you familiar with the number that the document is registered
5 A. This is 18. That number, I think, refers to the log-book of the
6 intelligence security sector.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now ...
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now I'm going to ask you something about the time when you went
11 to Jasenica. That is the western part of the front; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. While you were there, did you receive combat reports from the
14 Main Staff?
15 A. I talked about that in my previous testimony. Those reports that
16 were written to the Supreme Command and to the corps were sent to the
17 Main Staff forward command post or posts, if there were several of them.
18 So they would be sent to one or to all of them, if there were more than
20 I think this is also in the heading of some reports that
21 Mr. McCloskey showed to me yesterday, that the IKM of the Main Staff is
22 also mentioned.
23 Q. Who signed the regular combat reports?
24 A. The block signature would be the Chief of the Main Staff,
25 General Milovanovic. After a certain period of time, the signature would
1 say, "Representing the Chief of Staff, Major-General Radivoje Miletic."
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we were using the word "zastupa" which
4 has normally been translated into "standing in" and it's a slightly
5 different terminology, I believe, in the VRS. Just, Mr. Lukic, may be
6 able to help.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you, in your questions, I think,
8 "standing in" and "for" or "standing in for" was one of your favourite
10 MR. LUKIC: I don't know about that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you check whether there's any chance that your
12 question may have been misunderstood by the witness or ... or by us.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: It would also be helpful for the interpreters to
14 have one of these documents because then they will see the CLSS
15 translation. Because somehow "representing" got in there, and I think we
16 should try to be consistent on this if it's going to be something --
17 MR. LUKIC: I'm not going again to ask about "standing in" but
18 about the period of time when the signature of General Milovanovic
19 appeared on those documents.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Okay. That's fine.
21 Mr. McCloskey has some concern about an inconsistency on a --
22 very much a detail of the language used in documents. Could you, perhaps
23 even together with CLSS, make a short agenda saying, If this appears, the
24 proper translation is that, if that appears, so that we don't have to go
25 through all of the translations of all of the documents if there possibly
1 are any mistakes.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, yes, and like many things here,
3 this has been done before and, as I'm sure the Defence will agree,
4 General Milovanovic was in the Krajina for many, many days in 1995, and
5 he has gone through all those reports and identified all the times that
6 he was gone and all the times that it says "standing in." And that's
7 what you're talking about. General Milovanovic will be here. But the
8 term "representing," when that gets thrown into the mix, that complicates
9 things. That's my only objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: There are two ways, Mr. McCloskey. Either we ask
11 for a formal verification of translation or you have pointed at a term
12 which is unfamiliar to you, knowing a lot of these documents.
13 One of the two.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: The translations are fine. It just -- I think
15 caught the booth off guard. If they'd seen the actual translation, they
16 would have been fine.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then let me -- let me see. When I said
18 "verification of the translation," I should have said "verification of
19 the interpretation."
20 Do you seek that or do you think that you have sufficiently drawn
21 our attention to this matter? It's up to you.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, I don't want to try to control the booth.
23 I think they do a great job, but I just I know this "representation" word
24 is problematic and perhaps they'll think about it and ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we hear from the booth. I think we all
1 share our admiration and appreciation for the great work done.
2 Is there any chance that "represented" would be better translated
3 by - and now I hope not to make any mistake - "standing in"?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, "zastupati" does translate into
5 English as "standing in for."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So it would happen that in the signature it would say that a
9 report was signed by General Milovanovic, even though, at the same time,
10 he was with you in the western sector of the front.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Well, it's obvious that he could not have signed that, but that
13 somebody signed that in his name; is that correct?
14 A. Mr. Lukic, the document that would come under encryption does not
15 contain a signature. It would just contain a typed signature.
16 Mr. McCloskey knows that in one proceedings here I talked about
17 General Miletic and how this came about. And if you like, I can explain
19 Q. Well, let me just ask you about that briefly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am going to object now and if he does have a --
22 such a document, he should show it to the witness because my recollection
23 is all those documents say "standing in for the commander" -- or, sorry,
24 "standing in for the Chief of Staff."
25 And so it's very clear, it's not one of these documents that is
1 under the name of the person and it's not clear because it's a teletype.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Are you commenting on the answer of the witness or
3 are you objecting to a question?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm objecting. He is suggesting something that I
5 do not believe is reflected in the evidence. If he has an example of
6 that, he should show it. My recollection is the documents that are going
7 to the president, they say: General Miletic standing in for the Chief of
8 Staff. There may be some that are Milovanovic, that you can't tell, but
9 I don't think so and I'd like to see them if they are before he puts that
10 in a question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Exactly. Could you give line -- we're on page 53.
12 Where exactly it is, Mr. McCloskey, that you're objecting to? Page and
13 line number, please.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: What I see on page 52, starting line 14:
15 "Well, it's obvious that he could not have signed that but that
16 somebody signed that in his name; is that correct?"
17 And then also above that, line 10:
18 "So it would happen that in a signature it would say that a
19 report was signed by General Milovanovic even though, at the same time,
20 he was with you ..."
21 My point is, it does not say that it was signed by Milovanovic.
22 It says, it's my recollection, Miletic standing in for Milovanovic. That
23 may be the point Mr. Lukic is trying to get across, but I don't want to
24 leave the impression that he's leaving in that question because it's not
25 correct. And I go back to my original point, if we just put a document
1 up there that he is referring to, it would all be clear.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
3 MR. LUKIC: At the moment, I don't have the document. I -- I
4 don't have it, the number, so I can call it but I --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you --
6 MR. LUKIC: The basis of my question was 65 ter number 29091,
7 uploaded by the Prosecution as the witness statement of this witness.
8 And it -- in e-court, page 27, we can find the same -- almost the same
9 words uttered by this gentleman.
10 So if we go to 65 ter 29091, e-court page 27, which corresponds
11 to page 28233 from the 14th of November, 2008, testimony in Popovic
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see.
14 MR. LUKIC: Lines 10 to 16. I will read.
15 "Q. In that part of the front line in the forward command post
16 in question, from Manojlo Milovanovic was there from the end of October,
17 wasn't he? Do you know whose signatures did combat reports bear?
18 "A. Since it was an encrypted communication, in the bottom left
19 part of each telegram, there was the so-called block signature featuring
20 the chief of General Staff, Colonel General Manojlo Milovanovic, but we
21 doubt his actual signature."
22 So that was the base of my question.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: The inference in the question was that it was not
24 clear from the document who was signing when it in fact is from the
25 document. You can see it says "standing in for."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Lukic, having heard all the problems
2 raised by Mr. McCloskey, is there any way that you could rephrase your
3 question in such a way that you get the answer you're seeking, and, at
4 the same time, that Mr. McCloskey doesn't further object?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I --
6 MR. LUKIC: I can withdraw the question. It is nothing crucial
7 for us at the moment.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The question is withdrawn. We leave it to
9 that .
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's another point you should be familiar with
11 as Mr. Lukic --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is it a matter for re-examination Mr. McCloskey
13 or ...
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I think it helps clear up why I'm concerned
15 with this point. And it shouldn't be anything that could cause the
16 witness a problem and it's short.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Very short, yes.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: You have seen Bratunac Brigade reports that are
19 typed sign under the name of Vidoje Blagojevic, when Vidoje Blagojevic
20 was at Zepa and they brought that out very clearly and that's a fair
21 point and that was part of what they wanted to get across that we don't
22 contest. This is not that situation, and I don't want you to be confused
23 and think it is. Because it's a very different document with very
24 different communications but they're making it sound like it is.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You said you would keep it short. I think to the
1 extent you would show further any documents to the witness, you can do so
2 in re-examination and we should not yet end up in argument at this
4 Mr. Lukic, question withdrawn, please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: With one remark that we'll try to find the document
6 with that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm certain that Mr. McCloskey will appreciate that.
8 And so will the Chamber.
9 MR. LUKIC: Okay. May I proceed, Your Honour? Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] We don't bother you with this anymore, but we
11 are still at the forward command post on the western front, and you're
12 still there with General Milovanovic.
13 Is it true that General Milovanovic, while he was staying at the
14 forward command post, had all -- all necessary means of communication
16 A. Yes. At forward command posts, all types of communications are
17 set up that also exist at the basic command post, only to a lesser
18 extent. There are communications lines going to the superior command, to
19 the subordinates, and the basic command post.
20 Q. What does TKT stand for? Could you please explain.
21 A. Confidential commanding of troops. It's an abbreviation.
22 Q. What are TKT documents?
23 A. They're documents that are compiled and through which command is
24 carried out in order to protect the confidentiality of documents.
25 Operatives do that. It's part of cryptographic protection. Keys are
1 changed often so the one listening in on our communications would have to
2 have the required key to know what the communication was about.
3 Q. Now to set up a link with this topic, is it true that for someone
4 to be able to exercise command, he would have to have both a means of
5 communication and a TKT?
6 A. Yes. In principle, that's true.
7 Q. Apart from regular combat reports, General Milovanovic also
8 received oral reports from the VRS Main Staff. Is that true?
9 A. I wasn't with him all the time, but communication lines were
10 available. Since I was staying at the command post most of the time, if
11 General Milovanovic was delayed, I would receive calls from the
12 Main Staff and speak about the situation in the area. To what extent he
13 communicated and with whom, I cannot say.
14 Q. At any rate, General Milovanovic, had he not had these means of
15 communication or those TKT documents, he wouldn't have been able to
16 follow the situation in the theatre of war?
17 A. He would have been able to the same extent as corps commands.
18 Because the reports from the Main Staff that we drafted for the
19 Supreme Command were also sent to corps commands and to forward command
20 posts of the Main Staff. So if a report goes to the Supreme Command, the
21 one at the forward command post of the Main Staff will also get it.
22 Q. So they would only be in a position to receive written reports.
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter, from the Prosecutor's list,
25 25931, please. It's a short document. It should be possible to display
1 it on one screen.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be enlarged a bit?
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you see it? Please read it. No, you don't have to read it
5 out aloud.
6 A. I understand.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the second page in English so we see the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
10 MR. LUKIC: Can we go back in English version to the first page.
11 Q. [Interpretation] We see that the Herzegovina Corps Command, on
12 the 1st of August, 1995, sent a communication from its forward command
13 post number 1. It is very urgent. And to whom do they send their
15 A. It says to the Main Staff of the VRS, then the 2nd Krajina Corps,
16 and to General Mladic personally.
17 Q. According to this document, where was General Mladic located?
18 A. The Command of the Herzegovina Corps has information that
19 General Mladic was staying with the 2nd Krajina Corps. That's why this
20 was sent to the Main Staff; more specifically, the 2nd Krajina Corps, and
21 General Mladic personally who was there. So they know where he was.
22 They are requesting that the neighbouring corps - and that's the
23 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps - take over the features taken because it's in
24 the zone of responsibility of the latter corps anyway. But since the
25 Herzegovina Corps cannot command the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, they are
1 turning to General Mladic to order the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to do
2 what's required here.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: I'm closing to an end. So maybe we could make a
5 break now and I can reorganise my questions, and I will probably have a
6 couple of more minutes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Couple of more minutes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first.
10 We'll first have the witness escorted out of the courtroom.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE ORIE: And we resume at 1.30. Half past 1.00.
13 Mr. McCloskey, is the next witness ready to start the
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have to check. I'm not sure. I won't have too
16 much ...
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, Janet tells me they are ready. And I don't
19 have too much re-direct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then prepare for every possible way of
22 We'll take the break and resume at 1.30.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. General, we're wrapping up. Before I continue with you, I'll
5 have to address the Trial Chamber.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender 1D1100. That's a
7 decision from the Official Gazette about the establishment of a state
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Just one second.
11 No objections, Mr. McCloskey.
12 I apologise for being -- my attention was drawn in a different
13 direction for a second.
14 Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1100 receives number D336,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 And another document we used today, 65 ter 14596.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You tender that as well?
21 Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 14596 receives number D337,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D337 is admitted into evidence.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] All right. This is done now.
1 Could we please see 65 ter 25569.
2 Q. You will see, General, that it's an agreement on the disarmament
3 of able-bodied persons in the Zepa enclave. Did you know at the time
4 that this agreement had been reached?
5 A. I heard of the agreement, but I didn't see it then.
6 Q. In the preamble, preceding para 1, we read that on the
7 25th of July, 1995, the following agreement was reached between
8 Rajko Kusic on one side and Hamdija Kolak from the other side. It says
9 "Kolak" but I believe it should be "Torlak" instead. Do you know?
10 A. I think Torlak is more likely, but I'm not sure.
11 Q. I clipped a part of this document from another version, but never
12 mind that.
13 In the presence of Sejmon Dudnjik as UNPROFOR's representative.
14 You knew that the Ukrainian battalion was in Zepa, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we could agree that that is
17 Hamdija Torlak, it should be. That this is a typo or a mistake of some
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you know that Mr. Dudnjik was the commander of this Ukrainian
21 battalion at Zepa?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. After this agreement was reached, civilians started leaving Zepa;
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask a few questions to start with.
2 I point some matters which my attention is drawn to. The
3 document starts by saying:
4 "Today, the 25th of July, 1995 ..."
5 At the very end of the document, it says:
6 "24th of July, 1995, 18.30 hours."
7 Paragraph 11 of the agreement says:
8 "The agreement shall come into the effect immediately after
10 I looked in e-court, and I did not find either of the versions,
11 English or B/C/S, to be signed. So that these are a few matters before
12 we start asking about ... I've got no idea what it is.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the English signature block, we see now the
14 right name Torlak, as agreed by the parties. But the first name is
15 different from here. It is Hakija instead of Hamdija.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So these are five preliminary questions apart from
17 that Mr. Mladic is also someone at the bottom mentioned as someone
18 apparently expected to sign this document. These are all the -- we are
19 lawyers, Mr. Lukic, so, therefore, I would like to draw your attention to
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Actually, I have completely different cutout from the same,
23 allegedly the same document.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This apparently what was uploaded into e-court.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. We'll try probably to replace it, then,
1 because I have D51 from Tolimir case and it's completely -- completely
2 different document, completely differently typed. So we'll probably
3 see --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it signed?
5 MR. LUKIC: I don't have that cutout so I don't see it. And I
6 don't have that document --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: -- because it's under different number --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps to clarify, D51 seems to be the number
11 from Tolimir case.
12 MR. LUKIC: From Tolimir case, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let's proceed, but please keep in the back
14 of your mind that all these questions are still without an answer for the
15 Chamber, Mr. Lukic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 I used 65 ter number. Maybe it was more wise for me to upload,
18 but it is obviously too late now. We'll do it probably in a couple of
19 days and try to use with somebody else. But I think that even without
20 the document, I can pose a couple of more questions to this witness.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have a signed document. Though that
22 doesn't resolve other issues with this --
23 MR. LUKIC: With Hakija and Hamdija?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I was thinking of whether it was an
25 agreement or not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. LUKIC: Oh.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, please -- the text of the document is the
4 same, more or less, Mr. McCloskey, then we can continue. And we are now
5 informed that, most likely, a signed copy can be produced.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And could I ask, nevertheless, Mr. McCloskey, four
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Stewart is nodding yes so I would not --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: More reliable source, yes.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we can, of course, print one out right away.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If -- if you could do that, then we could have a
16 look at it.
17 Could we ... let's proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm just receiving
19 information from General Mladic that he thinks that he did not sign this
20 document but we'll --
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a look at the printed-out version.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true, General, that after the departure of
24 civilians from Zepa, armed Muslim units at Zepa failed to act upon this
25 signed document?
1 A. I know that they stalled for time in honouring the disarmament
2 agreement. That is why at the trials where I gave evidence, I got
3 acquainted with documents Tolimir sent to the Main Staff in the context
4 of exchanges, and I knew that the Muslim -- or, rather, he said that the
5 Muslim side was dragging their feet --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please explain again what he
7 said about exchanges.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasan Muratovic went to meet him at
9 the airport and asked to be received by Slobodan Milosevic. He wanted
10 that -- that armed brigade to cross the border to enter Serbia. And that
11 was accepted. They were promised refugee status in Serbia, although they
12 were armed. That's what I learned from Carl Bildt's book. So Tolimir's
13 assessment was well founded.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. All right. General, thank you very much. Thank you for
16 answering our questions. And at this time, we have no questions for you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
18 The interpreters in the previous answer said that they asked the
19 witness to explain what he said about exchanges.
20 Now, I don't know, Mr. Lukic, whether you were able to follow it
21 in the original language and whether there's any need to ask the witness
22 to do it still.
23 MR. LUKIC: There is no any need -- need.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There's no need.
25 Mr. McCloskey, any need for re-examination of the witness.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I would hope 15 or
2 20 minutes and perhaps shorter, depending on the answers.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, please proceed. And I leave it your hands
4 whether it still makes sense, if you say possibly shorter, to ask the
5 next witness to remain stand by, but ...
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: She's here. I think standby is fine.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we start with P1785.
9 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
10 Q. And, General, just to -- this -- this is a Main Staff document to
11 the president that was the subject of a discussion we had regarding
12 standing in or whether it was Milovanovic's name on these when he was out
13 in the Krajina.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go to the last -- now that we see
15 what this is, can we go to the last page.
16 And we -- we see here clearly it's ... and -- well, if we could
17 blow up the -- the one down, the Serbian. Where we can read the Serbian
18 as something like "zastupa" and then we see clearly in the English,
19 "standing in for the Chief of Staff" and it's Major-General Miletic.
20 Q. Do you recall whether this was the -- the basic layout of most of
21 the -- such reports to the president during that time that
22 General Milovanovic was in the Krajina?
23 A. Yes. It states here, "standing in for." Not for the Chief of
24 Staff but standing in for the Chief of Staff, General -- Major-General
25 Radivoje Miletic.
1 After a certain period of time, while I was in the west, this
2 started to appear. Probably due to the fact that General Milovanovic, in
3 his communication with Miletic, asked him to put this. I've already said
4 before this Tribunal that during a morning coffee, when a report like
5 this arrived at the forward command post, General Jovo Maric was present.
6 He was the chief of the air force and anti-aircraft administration.
7 General Milovanovic said, "Excuse me, what is this Mico fucking with me?"
8 When we looked at him, he said, "How can I write a report to myself?"
9 And from that time on, this is what appears: Standing in for the Chief
10 of Staff, Major-General Radivoje Miletic.
11 Q. Okay. That's already in evidence.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we now go to P1087.
13 Q. General, you talked about -- as part of any operation there
14 should be a -- I think you called it a topographic map with an approval
15 on it, and the author of the operation in the right-hand corner. I want
16 to show you an original map that was obtained in a search of
17 General Zivanovic's Serbian residence.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's page 25 in e-court. And we have -- if we
19 could get some help, I think we've got an original that Ms. Stewart --
20 the Court may recall seeing this before when Mr. Ivetic and I were
21 showing maps.
22 If everybody could just take a look at it. And make sure that
23 General Mladic sees it.
24 And you're going to hurt the witness's neck if we can't -- well,
25 I guess you're not there to change it.
1 Q. General, is this what you had in mind when you talked about a
2 topographic map showing the approval?
3 A. Yes, this is a decision by the commander of the Drina Corps for
4 active combat approved by the commander, Major-General, we have the title
5 at the top, and then in the right-hand corner, it's signed by the person
6 who drafted the documents.
7 Q. Do you recognise the signature of the commander of the Main Staff
8 up in the left-hand corner?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That's General Mladic's signature?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. Let's go to another topic.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we can get back that to Ms. Stewart. There's
14 no other questions on that. If the -- thank you. That's all right.
15 Q. Now, my notes say that on page 67 yesterday, lines 9 through 10,
16 that you stated that whenever a new directive is issued, the previous
17 directive is no longer in force. And you were talking about the time,
18 Directive 7 and Directive 7/1. And I think the Defence would agree with
19 me that Directive 7 is dated March 8th, 1995. The cover letter sending
20 it to the corps was dated March 17th, 1995. And the date on
21 Directive 7/1 is March 31st, 1995.
22 So if we take you at your word, General, the Directive 7 would
23 have only been in force for three weeks. That can't be right, can it?
24 A. That depends on the situation at the front. Here, it's in force
25 in that part where the auxiliary forces are being issued their
1 assignments, that is the 1st Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
2 and the Herzegovina Corps. That's where they are told that they are to
3 act pursuant to the tasks issued in Directive 7/1. The main body of the
4 force, in order to carry out the Sadejstvo operation, the 1st Krajina
5 Corps, the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the Drina Corps, and the air force and
6 anti-aircraft defence, they were given a different assignment, not the
7 one that is stated in Directive 7. So the authors of the directive
8 provided the assignments to one set of forces according to Directive 7,
9 and the -- the tasks to the main body of the force is new in
10 Directive 7/1.
11 Q. Okay. I -- that does hopefully clear up a bit of that answer. I
12 won't get into that in any more detail.
13 And, lastly, we just saw a document and some questions from
14 Mr. Lukic, I think there was a gazette, a law about the formation of a
15 civilian body to control UN and humanitarian convoys.
16 And I have an audio I want to play to you to see if you can
17 comment on it. And -- but before I play that audio, were you -- were you
18 aware that -- if General Mladic or perhaps the security folks at the
19 Main Staff were ever taping their own communications between people and
20 the outside, or with -- with -- inside the Main Staff?
21 A. I'm not aware of that. I don't know.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And this is from an audiotape that was retrieved
24 from the residence of General Mladic in one of those searches. It's
25 65 ter 1711A, and I have not dealt with this product before but we should
1 have a transcript and I hope that it's hearable.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not provided to the booth, the
3 transcripts? I -- it has been. I -- I rely on the nodding of yes by
4 Ms. Stewart.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good idea.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 [Audiotape played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Please let me -- let me just list
9 it. It's fact number 9 ..."
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could for this first time perhaps ask the
12 interpreters not to say anything so we can listen to it --
13 JUDGE ORIE: What we'll do is we play it first without
14 translation -- translation of -- we see that there's also transcription
15 on our screens. And perhaps if, during the second round, after the
16 interpreters have had an opportunity to listen first, then to see whether
17 we can receive translation.
18 [Audiotape played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. That was -- that was one playing.
20 Should we play it again?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please play it again and then we'll ...
22 Mr. ...
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Low volume. Mr. Mladic, low volume.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, you stopped at 1 minute,
1 30 [Realtime transcript read in error "0"] seconds.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll play it again. Have the interpreters
4 have had an opportunity to listen to it and was it sufficiently audible
5 to do their job?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the tape is very, very inaudible,
7 so if we read what we have, we cannot actually listen to the tape at the
8 same time. So basically we would be reading from the transcript.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then proceed on this basis, and if there's any
10 comment on the accuracy of the -- of the English translation as
11 transcribed, Mr. Lukic, we'd like to hear from you. Of course, not at
12 this very moment but you have an opportunity to further verify the
13 accuracy of translation and transcription.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The -- my remark was not properly recorded. I
15 said you stopped at 1 minute, 30 seconds.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That is hereby corrected. Could we play it again
17 from the beginning.
18 [Audiotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Please let me just list it. It's
20 fact number 9. Then, mate, they again stopped the crossing over Nisici
21 plateau in the direction of Visoko. And now when it started pounding on
22 Sarajevo from the Nisici plateau, they did not send anyone to Srebrenica,
23 to Zepa. They made a safe area for the Turks in Srebrenica, Zepa,
24 Gorazde, Bihac, Sarajevo, Tuzla. Not in the Muslim-controlled part of
25 Sarajevo, nor in Capljina, nor in Mostar, nor in Zenica, nor in Tuzla.
1 Although I asked for that, where we -- and they have become, damn it, a
2 service of UNPROFOR and the international community. How many
3 humanitarian aid convoys will come about which they argued with me for a
4 year. And until I took everything, did not let anything through, I would
5 not have taken Srebrenica or Zepa. If I had not starved them in the
6 winter, since February I let them through only one or two convoys. But
7 then, for example, at that time it didn't even cross their minds to come
8 and see, except that Tomo Kovac came five days later, after the
9 liberation of Srebrenica to look at the factory and if there was
10 something he could steal from it, as he has been doing up to now. This
11 is his only task. Among themselves -- you see first while there was in
12 Pretis and when they had all looted all our factories with parts of the
13 MUP Ministry of Interior of Serbia -- of individuals looted everybody."
14 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, we do not believe that what we
15 read actually corresponded to what is here. The sound quality was too
16 poor for a faithful interpretation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, under the circumstances I think we
18 should work this out better. If you have any question in relation to
19 what you think was said approximately, if you could phrase it in such a
20 way that we are not relying directly on the text in this -- on this
22 It -- it seems, but correct me when I'm wrong, that at least
23 there was comment by the person speaking on convoys, humanitarian
24 convoys, and influence on those convoys over various periods of time.
25 And I leave it to that at this moment.
1 Could I -- I'm not asking the interpreters to confirm this, yes
2 or no, but on the basis of such a suggestion, and it will turn out to be
3 right or wrong, that has to be explored in further detail, you may put
4 some questions to the witness.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And I will get together with
6 the Defence on this small portion. This has been very carefully gone
7 over, as you need to do, obviously, with something like this, what cannot
8 be done in a courtroom, and I am confident that it is accurate, but we'll
9 work on that so you have better -- better information before you.
10 Q. General, I know you've heard a lot of radio traffic in your time
11 and that a -- your practiced ear. You recognised that voice, didn't you?
12 A. Yes. I recognised the voice of General Mladic. But I did not
13 understand who he was addressing. And I could see that he was quite
14 angry, outraged.
15 Q. Did you, in your time with General Mladic, know that he was angry
16 that safe areas were not made for the areas that he -- he noted in
17 this -- in this audio, that just, for whatever reason, the Muslims got
18 the safe areas and the Serbs didn't?
19 A. Well, I can speak about specific things. I know that in the
20 context -- in contacts it was not just that he was dissatisfied. We were
21 all dissatisfied about the treatment of the sides to the conflict.
22 Q. So did you share some of the concerns that he was voicing in
23 this -- in this short audio?
24 A. The dissatisfaction was generally similar regarding the attitude
25 or the position of the peacekeeping forces and other organisations from
1 the UNHCR, the International Committee of the Red Cross, Doctors Without
2 Borders, because the situation in the area and the events demonstrated a
3 certain partiality towards the other two sides, the Muslim and the
4 Croatian side, in relation to the Serb side.
5 Q. And we were translated a comment that: But not for starving the
6 enclaves, the VRS would not have taken them.
7 Something to that degree. Can you tell us what you heard, if
8 anything, on that topic? What you heard him say?
9 A. I did not understand what starving referred to. He was talking
10 about Gorazde to Zepa, the protected enclaves. And he was mentioning --
11 or he was asking for protected zones or enclaves to be formed for the
12 Serbian side, Mostar, Zenica. I don't know where else. I didn't
13 understand this part. There was a lot of background noise in the
14 headphones. And I don't know whom he was addressing, who he was talking.
15 Q. Okay, General. Thank you. That's, of course, not your job. So
16 I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
18 Mr. Lukic, any further questions?
19 MR. LUKIC: Just one.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: We don't have to call that large map, it's P1087.
22 And it's the map on Srebrenica action, operation.
23 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] General, we have information that General Mladic
25 signed this map on the 13th of July, 1995, but after the entire action
1 was finished. Do you know anything about that? Do you know when
2 General Mladic signed this map?
3 A. I don't know the exact date, but I seem to remember that he did
4 that after the fact once the assignment from this order was executed, the
5 order that was drafted by the Drina Corps. I don't know if it was Krstic
6 or somebody else gave it to him to sign. I wasn't present but that is
7 the information that I have.
8 Q. Thank you. This would be all our questions for you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no further questions for you,
10 Mr. Obradovic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like to
11 thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all
12 the questions that were put to you, and whether by the parties or by the
13 Judges, and I wish you a safe return home again.
14 You may follow the usher.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 I have one request, if you permit me to greet General Mladic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's not common to do that, but the mere fact that
18 you've expressed the wish to do that may be sufficient. And he has heard
19 that because that has been translated to Mr. Mladic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, would you please remain to be seated.
22 Mr. Mladic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, sir.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, your behaviour in this respect was
3 inappropriate. We established that at this very moment it has no
4 consequences but it is hereby on the record.
5 We will adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday,
6 the 18th of July, at 9.30 in the morning, in Courtroom III.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of July,
9 2013, at 9.30 a.m.