1 Wednesday, 21 August 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. The Chamber has not heard
11 of any preliminaries to be raised.
12 There is one request. Mr. Stojanovic, I don't think we already
13 received an estimate of the time for cross-examination of the witness,
14 the next witness. Do you have one?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We have
16 conveyed this to the Prosecution and we expect this to last up to two
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We heard possibly two and a half hours on our
19 list with a question mark so that's triggered up to two hours. That's up
20 to two and a half hours. No, up to two hours, you said, yes. Then in
21 view of the fact that protective measures apply for the next witness, we
22 have to move into closed session to allow the witness to enter the
23 courtroom but before we do so, Mr. Groome?
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we do that, the witness after
25 this witness is expert Robert Donia. On Monday the Defence filed a
1 written application raising a number of issues. The Prosecution would
2 ask an opportunity to address those issues orally prior to the start of
3 that witness and we anticipate it would take 10 to 15 minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you consider that we should wait
5 until after we have finished the witness next to be called.
6 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's not entirely clear -- one second,
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome, do we understand that your oral
11 submissions would amount to a response to the decision on relating to
12 expert witness Robert Donia? Or is it related to this matter raised by
13 the Defence on which the Chamber would like to decide before the witness
14 starts his examination.
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then why not do it right away so that we have
17 an opportunity to consider that at least during the break? Of course,
18 you'll understand that we started thinking about the application made by
19 the Defence and the sooner we know what the position of the Prosecution
20 is, the better it would be.
21 MR. GROOME: Ms. Bibles will be addressing the Chamber on this
22 matter. I can have her --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then -- if she would do that the last 10 to 15
24 minutes before the end of the first session this morning.
25 MR. GROOME: [Overlapping speakers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: So on from quarter past 10.
2 MR. GROOME: Okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn into closed session in order to
4 allow the witness to enter the courtroom.
5 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Witness RM249, when you
15 entered the courtroom, the curtains were down because you'll testify with
16 protective measures; that is, first, we will not use your own name and we
17 will avoid any reference to who you are. Second, no one outside this
18 courtroom will see your face.
19 Having explained this, before you give evidence the rules require
20 that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which will now be handed
21 out to you by the usher. May I invite to you make that solemn
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: WITNESS RM249
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness 249. Please be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye,
4 who is counsel for the Prosecution. You'll find him to your right.
5 Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
7 Your Honours, good morning everyone.
8 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
9 Q. Good morning to you, Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Before we get started I just want to remind you to try to keep
12 your voice up, try to speak a little bit more slowly than you would
13 normally, which will allow the interpreters to convey perhaps more
14 accurately what you say in response to the questions that I ask you, and
15 also let me know if there is anything that I've asked that is unclear and
16 I'll do my best to try and rephrase it so we can better understand one
18 Let me first start by showing you 65 ter 30175.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should not be broadcast, please.
20 Q. And I'll ask you, sir, to have a look at this document and
21 without saying what's on it, if you can confirm that you are the person
22 named in it.
23 A. Yes. I am the person mentioned in this document.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President I would tender this document at
1 this time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 30175 will be Exhibit P1989 under
4 seal, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P1989 is admitted under seal.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. Witness, do you recall having provided a statement to the Office
8 of the Prosecutor dated 24 January 1996?
9 A. Yes, I do remember giving a statement on this particular date.
10 Q. Do you also recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor
11 versus Tolimir on the 18th of March 2010?
12 A. Yes. I equally remember appearing as a witness in this case.
13 Q. Were your testimony and statement truthful when you gave them
15 A. Yes, they were completely truthful.
16 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review both your statement from
17 24 January 1996 and the testimony that you provided in the Tolimir case
18 prior to testifying here today?
19 A. Yes. I have had such an opportunity.
20 Q. And in the case of your testimony, did you have an opportunity to
21 listen to the audio recording of your appearance?
22 A. Yes, I did that as well.
23 Q. Having reviewed your testimony and your 24 January 1996 statement
24 can you confirm that they reflect what you said on those occasions
1 A. Yes. That's it.
2 Q. And do they fairly and accurately reflect what you would say if
3 you were to be examined here today and I were to put to you those same
5 A. Yes. For the most part, it would be identical.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President at this time I would tender both
7 the statement and the testimony under Rule 92 ter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before we proceed, I think we need 65 ter
10 But before doing so, Witness, you said for the most part it would
11 be identical. Did you mean to say that in substance it would be
12 identical or is there any part where you distance yourself from it?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't distance myself from it.
14 I said that the entire statement is fully and completely truthful and
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Vanderpuye, the 65 ter numbers?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. The 65 ter number for
18 the statement is 30176. I would tender it under seal.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 30176 will be Exhibit P1990 under
24 JUDGE ORIE: P1990 is admitted under seal. The excerpt of the
25 transcript, Mr. Vanderpuye?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. It is 65 ter number 30177.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 30177 will be Exhibit P1991, Your
5 JUDGE ORIE: Also under seal, I take it? There is no need to do
6 that? Let me just check. Yes. It is in open session. Then P1991 is
7 admitted into evidence.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would also tender the
9 associated exhibits at this time that are referenced in the testimony.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. Could you give us the 65 ter
11 numbers for them?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. 65 ter 05024.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I first ask, Mr. Stojanovic, is there any
14 objection against any of the associated exhibits? No, there is not. Or
15 is there?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Vanderpuye, if you read the 65 ter number
18 then the Registrar will immediately assign a number to it.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. They are 65 ter
20 numbers 05024.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1992, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P1992 is admitted.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: 05248.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1993, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P1993 is admitted.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: 05025.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1994.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P1994 is admitted.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: 05026.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1995, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P1995 is admitted.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: 05286.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1996, I assume under seal,
10 Your Honours.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, under seal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P1996 admitted under seal.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: And the last document I plan to use with the
14 witness, so I won't be tendering it at this time. I hopefully will be
15 able to have enough time to use it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
18 Mr. President, I have a summary of the witness's statement or
19 evidence I'd like to read.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You explained to the witness the purpose of it?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe I have.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness it will be read so that the public
23 knows more or less what is in your written statement, which allows the
24 public to better understand the remainder of your testimony.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 The witness moved to Srebrenica in 1983. Soon after the war
2 broke out, he was wounded in a shelling incident and suffered a serious
3 shrapnel injury. In July 1995, the witness lived in Srebrenica with his
4 family. They left Srebrenica on 11 July for Potocari seeking the
5 protection of UNPROFOR. When the witness and his family arrived in
6 Potocari, they took refuge in a building where they spent the night. On
7 12 July, when the removal of the population began, the witness recognised
8 many people he knew. Realising that Serb soldiers were separating men
9 from their families, he searched for a place to hide. He eventually
10 found a group of broken down buses to which he and his family moved
11 during the night. In the early morning of 13 July, the witness's wife
12 went to get water. When she returned she told the witness that she had
13 seen blood on the ground floor of one of the houses nearby. They decided
14 to try to leave Potocari and join the crowd of refugees trying to do the
15 same around 8.00 a.m. that morning.
16 The witness carried his young daughter through to a check-point
17 where he waited for his wife and mother who had fallen behind. They
18 eventually managed to get on to or into an overcrowded bus through the
19 back door. The witness sat on the floor to avoid detection. The bus
20 left Potocari proceeding in the direction of Bratunac and was soon
21 stopped at Magasici. The witness could hear someone outside asking
22 whether there were any men on the bus. The bus then travelled toward
23 Kravica then toward Milici, being stopped at both locations. Throughout
24 the journey the bus was similarly stopped about nine or ten times before
25 reaching Luke around 10.00 a.m. At Luke everyone was made to leave the
1 bus. The witness who was carrying his young daughter was ordered to give
2 her over to his wife and he complied.
3 He was taken a short distance to the school by a Serb soldier who
4 said that he recognised the witness from a previous -- from his previous
5 workplace. He warned the witness to answer all questions or he would be
7 Outside the school, the witness was placed next to another
8 prisoner and subsequently had his hands bound. By dusk, the prisoners
9 numbered about 22. The witness recalled several of their names.
10 Sometime after 9.00 p.m. the prisoners were brought into the
11 school one by one. Inside a classroom, they were searched, had their
12 property taken, and verbally and physically abused by the Serb soldiers.
13 The witness was bloodied by a blow with a pipe to his head.
14 Shortly after midnight, on the morning of 14 July --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you switch off -- one second, please,
16 Mr. Mladic, if you consult with counsel, it's better to switch off your
17 microphone, which has now been done. Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Shortly after midnight on the morning of 14 July, the prisoners
20 were ordered on to a military truck. Several armed Serb soldiers also
21 got in. They drove in the direction of Vlasenica before turning off on
22 to a gravel road and continuing to the execution point. There, the
23 soldiers took up positions, began pulling prisoners off the truck and
24 then executing them. Two men were shot trying to escape. But the
25 witness managed to flee under fire and made it to some nearby bushes
1 where he hid behind a rock to avoid being hit. He went down a steep
2 slope, winding up near a stream where he remained in the dark. The
3 witness subsequently heard strong gunfire coming from the area from which
4 with he had fled, lasting about ten minutes. He concluded the remaining
5 prisoners had been killed. He stayed put until dawn and then set out.
6 After two weeks, on 27 July 1995, the witness arrived in the free
8 Mr. President, that concludes my summary and I have a few
9 additional questions for the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed and take care that you finish
11 approximately by quarter past up to 20 minutes past 10.00.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, at paragraph -- rather at page 2 of your statement, you
14 speak about the injury that you suffered in 1992. This is the shrapnel
15 injury that I've just mentioned. In relation to that injury, were you
16 subsequently able to perform any military activities?
17 A. Yes. I was wounded by a shell fired from the Serbian side, that
18 happened on the 14th of May 1992. It was a serious wound to the right
19 knee of my leg, so for a long time I was immobile, I was bed ridden in a
20 house of a schoolmate of mine. Later on I was able to walk with one
21 crutch. You asked me whether I was able to be a member of Defence forces
22 in the town of Srebrenica. I can tell you quite frankly and honestly
23 that I wasn't able to do that and neither was I doing it later.
24 Q. Did that include 1995, the period in which you left Srebrenica?
25 A. Yes, yes. The entire time that I spent between the date I was
1 wounded until the date I left Srebrenica, I was not engaged as a member
2 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Thank you. I just wanted to ask you a few questions about the
4 period before you left Srebrenica, and in particular I'd like to focus
5 you, if I could, in the time period between January and July 1995. Could
6 you tell us what the conditions were like living in Srebrenica during
7 that period of time?
8 A. It is difficult to describe the situation in Srebrenica relating
9 to a total blockade that the town was under. The people of Srebrenica,
10 who were confined there, tried in a variety of ways to survive in the
11 surrounded town, although at that time Srebrenica enjoyed the status of a
12 protected area, all the provisions and everything that was supposed to be
13 implemented was never implemented in Srebrenica and by that I mean the
14 protection of the people of Srebrenica or the supply of food necessary
15 for Srebrenica. Although there were attempts to provide that, convoys
16 were often stopped, turned back, and only partial deliveries were made
17 after they passed the check-point in Bratunac. So all in all, what
18 reached Srebrenica was only what the people who controlled it wished to
19 be delivered to the people. In other words, there was never sufficient
20 food or medical supplies delivered to the surrounded town of Srebrenica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, before you continue, the Chamber
22 noticed that this first question was first of all on a matter on which we
23 have heard evidence again and again and again. To that extent, it's very
24 repetitious. Second, you put a very open question to the witness, which
25 understandably leads him to give a long answer. I would like to remind
1 you that you're limited in your time. You announced 30 minutes. And the
2 Chamber is not seeking repetitious evidence on matters on which we heard
3 much and detailed evidence. Please keep that in mind for the 12 to 17
4 minutes that are left. Please proceed.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I was just about to
6 ask another area.
7 Q. When you decided to leave Srebrenica, did you feel that you had a
8 choice to remain?
9 A. It was impossible for me to remain there because the hatred that
10 was growing among the Serb soldiers was such that everyone who lived in
11 the blockaded Srebrenica, should they have decided to remain in
12 Srebrenica, they would have died definitely.
13 Q. When you reached Potocari, and ultimately decided to get on the
14 bus to leave, did you feel at that point that you had any prospect of
15 remaining either there or in Srebrenica or returning at some future
17 A. No. At that point, one couldn't possibly think about remaining
18 because that would spell definite death. The only place -- way to save
19 one self was to leave Srebrenica. At the time, I was pondering certain
20 options given that I had this severe wound.
21 Q. You mentioned in your statement, and that's at page 8 in the
22 English and page 9 in the B/C/S, you mentioned that you learned of the
23 location where the execution occurred or where were you brought to be
24 executed from others. You indicated in your statement that it was in the
25 area of Rasica Gaj and the Cikotska river. Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes. When I managed to escape the shooting by the Serb soldiers,
2 for seven days I walked alone through forested area until I met a group.
3 This group was made up of people who were familiar with this area, and
4 I also recognised the location where we were taken. One man explained to
5 me the name of that place, and that's the name that you mentioned,
6 Rasica Gaj, so it just happened that I came across this man with whom
7 later on I tried to find a way to a free territory. We met at this
8 specific location and he told me that the place was called Rasica Gaj.
9 Q. What I'd like to do is just ask you a few questions about some of
10 the people that you mention in your statement. First of all, you
11 mentioned a number of names and I wanted to ask you if you first of all
12 can recall those and if you can recall any last names of the people that
13 you mentioned.
14 A. Yes. All the names that I mentioned, some of their last names
15 I did not mention, though, because I cannot remember them even now. If
16 I mentioned them in my statement, I can still remember them to this day.
17 Q. Okay. You mentioned two individuals, one named Fuad and someone
18 named Alija, and that's at page 4 of your statement. You mentioned them
19 together. What I wanted to ask you was do you recall those two
20 individuals, and were they related, to your recollection?
21 A. Yes. I remember mentioning these two names that you cited.
22 I clearly remember that when they were brought in during the day when
23 I was brought before them, these two were brothers. A Serb soldier
24 disclosed their names when the two addressed him and greeted them as a
25 neighbour. In return he cursed their mother, stating that they were no
1 longer neighbours, and during a short altercation between them, they told
2 him their names, that they came from a village close to his village, and
3 that their names were Fuad and Alija. Later on, this would be confirmed
4 upon their arrival in the free territory, and by that I mean that they
5 had been brought in there.
6 Q. Do you remember an individual by the name of Rizo?
7 A. Yes. I remember Rizo. His last name is Mustafic, and
8 I mentioned that as well. This gentleman worked in the DutchBat in
9 Potocari as an electrician. During the fall of Srebrenica, he happened
10 to be in the capture area where I was. He was brought in and took to be
11 executed in the same manner and he was shot dead there because he never
12 appeared as a live person later on.
13 Q. And do you remember an individual named Azem?
14 A. Yes. He was another gentleman who disclosed his identity when
15 questioned by Serb soldiers. The Serb soldiers asked him where he had
16 been wounded. He had a severe wound and moved with difficulty. And he
17 explained about a place in a forest near Srebrenica. They looked
18 suspiciously at him and said that it was possible that he had been
19 wounded in another place.
20 Q. Was his last name Becic, to your recollection?
21 A. Yes, yes. His last name was Becic. That's what I said in my
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just for the Chamber's reference, I would refer
25 the Chamber to Exhibit P1987 and P1727. For the first one, I would refer
1 the Chamber to page 34 in e-court, relative to information provided by
2 Mr. Janc, and in the corresponding site code for the Chamber's reference,
3 to P1727.
4 Witness, I'm almost out of time and what I'd like to ask you is
5 if you would describe for the Chamber what it was like for you when you
6 reached Luke and were told to hand your daughter over to your wife and to
7 go with the soldier.
8 A. It's difficult to describe that situation. Upon -- so the bus
9 arrived to the final destination where everybody had to leave the bus,
10 and the whole time prior to that I was hidden in the bus. I wanted to
11 hide. That was the first reason. And the second reason was that
12 I couldn't stand because my knee was severely injured. So I sat on the
13 floor of the bus the entire time, and when everybody left the bus I had
14 to leave the bus as well.
15 Upon leaving the bus, I saw a lot of Serbian soldiers checking
16 everybody leaving the bus. My daughter was four years old and she was
17 skinny, quite a skinny child, half the weight of other four year olds,
18 and she was quite attached to me, so I was carrying her, and I took her
19 into my arms. Then a Serb soldier said that I had to turn over the child
20 and go with them. I resigned myself to that. I had to do that. And
21 I went with the soldiers.
22 I made a movement with my head to see my daughter for the last
23 time. He pushed me with the rifle and said, "Move forward." And
24 I moved. He addressed a man who sat on an elevation by the road, and he
25 said to him, "Major, where should we go?" And this major, whom he
1 addressed, indicated with his hand that we should go back, and
2 I continued going there with the man who escorted me. At the same time,
3 he said that he knew me, he said, "I know you from somewhere." And then
4 he said, "Do you know me?" I looked at his face and I told him I didn't
5 know him. He said, "You must know me. You just don't remember me.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we briefly move into private session?
10 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we continued moving into the
2 background from the direction where the buses had come from. We
3 continued walking and moved for some 200 or 250 metres, at which point in
4 time I saw a facility, it was an elementary school. The Serb soldier
5 indicated with his hand that we should go to the yard of the school. On
6 the way there, he said that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you there? I think you have, by far,
8 answered the question that was put to you by Mr. Vanderpuye which was
9 focused on the moment where you had to hand over your daughter.
10 Mr. Vanderpuye, any further questions?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I have no further questions,
13 I see that my time has expired.
14 Q. Witness I want to thank you for appearing and for your testimony.
15 A. Thank you for the questions you put to me.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What about your last exhibit or your last
17 document you wanted to tender and use with the witness?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't think I have the time to do it. But
19 I may have the time yet following the cross-examination.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not the usual way of dealing with those
21 matters, Mr. Vanderpuye. The best way, I don't know how important the
22 document is you want to tender with the witness, but the best way of
23 course is to keep a tight control of the examination-in-chief and to
24 avoid repetition.
25 But Witness, we will take a break now. That break will be
1 approximately half an hour for you. After the break you'll be
2 cross-examined by Defence counsel. But before you leave the courtroom
3 for the break, we first turn into closed session so that no one will see
4 your face when leaving the courtroom. We turn into closed session.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [Closed session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wanted to make
21 one small correction on the record. P1993, what should be uploaded as
22 that exhibit is 65 ter 5248C, which is an excerpt from the photo book of
23 Mr. Ruez. Pages 24 and 25 thereof.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that -- I have -- is that -- does that
25 mean that it's the wrong number? Because on your list I find -- at least
1 on one of your lists I find, yes, 05248C, you say?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is hereby on the record.
4 Ms. Bibles, Mr. Groome announced that you would address the
5 Chamber in relation to the most recent filing that is the Defence
6 Rule 94 bis notice and objection relative to proposed Prosecution Witness
7 Robert Donia and a motion to amend the 65 ter list. Please proceed.
8 MS. BIBLES: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. Your
9 Honours, in its 94 bis filing for Dr. Donia, the Defence raises four
10 arguments. The first three of these arguments alleging that the
11 Prosecution has failed to identify the field of expertise - Dr. Donia's
12 methodology and bias - don't require much of a response. Dr. Donia has
13 testified here 14 times at ICTY. These transcripts, his reports, his
14 CVs, are well known and have been disclosed. Dr. Donia's most recent CV
15 was disclosed to the Defence on 23 July. I will seek to add his
16 curriculum vitae to the 65 ter list. It has been uploaded as
17 65 ter 30165. The bottom line with respect to the first three arguments
18 is that these are matters appropriately for cross-examination.
19 However, the Defence argues that there have been breaches of
20 disclosure, which is notably incorrect. All materials cited by Dr. Donia
21 in his footnotes, which are in the OTP system, have been disclosed to the
22 Defence. It is worth noting that Dr. Donia's two reports and appendices
23 were disclosed in English on the 22nd of February, the B/C/S translations
24 were provided on the 12th of April of 2013. In reviewing his Sarajevo
25 report, it is evident that Dr. Donia's research and sources include
1 books, newspapers, open source materials, that are generally used by
2 scholarly historians in their research and particularly for citing events
3 that were known at the time. I should note that the very poor timing of
4 the filing of the Prosecution's 94 bis notice is my responsibility. It
5 was a mistake particularly given that the reports themselves were
6 actually disclosed months prior. I apologise for that. We did modify
7 this week's schedule to allow additional consideration time given that
8 poor timing.
9 The issue central to this discussion today is related only to a
10 small percentage of footnotes in Dr. Donia's Sarajevo report. As this
11 Trial Chamber is aware, ICTY jurisprudence regarding an expert's sources
12 requires that those sources underlying an expert report are clearly
13 indicated and easily accessible, and if not, whether there is prejudice
14 to the accused. In other litigation on these points have largely arisen
15 in the context of expert reports on which an expert has relied on
16 materials that are not available to the public or to the other party such
17 as a VJ insider or someone who has special access to materials are not
18 available to others. Here, that's not the case. These are documents in
19 the public purview.
20 On 25 July, the Defence requested additional documentation
21 regarding the footnotes in this report noting that Dr. Donia does not
22 provide 65 ter numbers in his footnotes. As an outside expert, he does
23 not have the 65 ter numbers and they would not be included in his report.
24 I immediately advised the Defence that we would provide a chart of the
25 footnoted materials with the 65 ter numbers and ERN location numbers, but
1 I advised that there were open source materials that were not in the OTP
2 database. These include less than 60 pages of material which it is
3 important to consider are largely footnoted in background material. 17
4 pages of these materials are from one page articles in either
5 "Oslobodjenje" or "Slobodna Bosnia." They are referenced by date and
6 title of the article in these newspapers. Twenty seven of these pages
7 are from nine different books which are all referenced by author, title,
8 publisher, and the year of publication. At least five of which are in
9 the ICTY library upon a quick check yesterday.
10 The others include five official documents and a transcript of a
11 Pale TV show. Of those five official documents, one is the 1991 census,
12 which in a different format is on our exhibit list three times and is
13 accessible to the Defence. The other four include a Bosnia gazette, the
14 1978 statute of Sarajevo, and archived materials from the city of
15 Sarajevo. These are not in the OTP system and are not subject to
16 disclosure. Having reviewed the Defence filing, however, I did ask
17 Dr. Donia whether he had any of these open source materials available to
18 him. He provided them in a PDF format which we have or can give to the
19 Defence this morning.
20 Aside from being publicly available, these materials generally
21 relate to the background portions of Dr. Donia's report. For example, on
22 page 18, in both the English and B/C/S versions of the Sarajevo report,
23 footnote 45 includes three of these sources. It supports this statement
24 in the report which is describing the history of the development of
25 municipalities in Sarajevo.
1 "The city council undertook the most far reaching these
2 expansions in 1977 driven by the need to strengthen and standardise the
3 existing communications networks and infrastructure in advance of the
4 1984 winter Olympic Games."
5 If this or any other aspect of the report, supported by the open
6 source footnotes, are at issue in this case, then the appropriate remedy
7 is to cross-examine Dr. Donia with respect to his report on those
8 sources. We do not oppose additional cross-examination time for this
9 witness, for the Defence to challenge areas of the report supported by
10 these sources.
11 As to the memorandum cited at the end of the Defence response, we
12 would happily provide the memorandum and the revision to the -- for the
13 Trial Chamber's consideration. The memorandum, which is 16 pages of
14 double spaced material, was initially provided along with Dr. Donia's
15 94 bis notice over 30 days ago. Last Friday, in preparation for his
16 testimony, Dr. Donia provided an errata sheet containing or correcting
17 the translation of one cited quote in that memorandum along with some
18 small clerical errors. For clarity, he also provided a clean version of
19 the original memorandum with the corrections provided in the text.
20 There are no substantive additions to the additional memorandum.
21 The clean memorandum was simply provided to assist the Defence in their
22 preparation. We have checked with Dr. Donia, realising that there may be
23 a scheduling issue here, regarding any flexibility in his calendar. We
24 have learned that he could be available through next Monday and perhaps
25 next Tuesday, if necessary, for any additional cross-examination based on
1 these materials. We would also offer that if the Defence was to apply
2 later on for Dr. Donia to be recalled, that we would not oppose that
4 We would propose that Dr. Donia is here and prepared to testify
5 and that we proceed with his testimony and cross-examination. Where the
6 appropriate remedy for the objections noted in the Defence response is in
7 a full cross-examination, we would make him available obviously for
8 additional cross-examination if that was necessary following his initial
9 testimony. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
11 Mr. Lukic, first of all, welcome back. Do you wish to respond
12 right away or --
13 MR. LUKIC: I think I can respond right away, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then I do not know how much time you would need for
15 that and whether we would first take a break and ask you to --
16 MR. LUKIC: We can take the break as well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you would need?
18 MR. LUKIC: We heard pretty long explanation.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: But it comes to two points. We were, the documents
21 were not disclosed to us. And something is offered to be disclosed
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. LUKIC: So I don't think that I will have much to add to this
25 because they admitted they didn't follow the rules.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But that's very short.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but I will elaborate a bit after the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we take the break now.
4 Perhaps there will be some disclosure during the break. You
5 never know, because Ms. Bibles was --
6 MR. LUKIC: We will not accept disclosure during the break.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, disclosure is disclosure. Whether you would
8 later argue that it was too late, that's a different matter, but
9 disclosure is disclosure, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Okay. We will see if we'll receive anything during
11 the break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Bibles announced that.
13 MR. LUKIC: But I think it's less than three days before the
14 testimony of the witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first take a break and we resume at five
16 minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will carefully listen to your
20 observations in relation to what was presented by Ms. Bibles.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [Interpretation] I'm going to speak in B/C/S, perhaps I shall be
23 more accurate and precise.
24 First of all, let me say that I received a disclosure today
25 during the break from Ms. Bibles, and I don't know what it contains, how
1 many documents it contains. Our objection is that we did not receive the
2 material in good time. I would like to emphasise that before the break,
3 I addressed the Prosecution explicitly with regard to Dr. Donia, asking
4 that everything that I need to have be given to me before the break so
5 that I can have an opportunity to prepare my cross-examination, the
6 cross-examination of this expert witness.
7 My legal consultant, Mr. Ivetic, was constantly in touch with
8 Mrs. Bibles.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I get clear: When you say before the break,
10 you don't mean this break this morning, you mean the recess.
11 MR. LUKIC: The recess, yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] So before the summer
15 recess, I had asked that everything be disclosed to us. Through web mail
16 and through Mr. Ivetic, our legal adviser, we maintained constant
17 communication with the OTP. This morning, you heard a lengthy
18 explanation about what is contained and what is not contained, what was
19 sent, what was not sent, what was disclosed and not disclosed, what comes
20 from public sources, et cetera.
21 Now, what I'd like to tell you is that Mr. Donia is supposed to
22 start his testimony today. However, at this point, I don't know what we
23 have available to us. I believe that the obligation to disclose material
24 is 100 per cent. There cannot be any contingency or reservation to the
25 effect that 30 per cent or 40 per cent can be disclosed. All the
1 materials relating to a certain expert witness must be disclosed. During
2 this brief break, Ms. Bibles told me to be careful not to push this issue
3 too hard because the same obligation will apply to us as a Defence team.
4 We are prepared to follow the rules and to disclose to the Prosecution
5 everything that needs to be disclosed. We were more in fear of what is
6 awaiting us with the future expert witnesses coming to testify on behalf
7 of the Prosecution.
8 We know that until the end of the -- their case, they are going
9 to rely on expert witnesses in order to present their submissions.
10 I don't want this to become a practice that the materials are not
11 disclosed and on the other hand that in such situation expert witnesses
12 are allowed to appear and testify. Finally, this morning we heard
13 with -- that many of these documents come from open sources. What is an
14 open source? If it is on the internet, it's all right, we have access to
15 that, but if the US library in New York is an open source means that
16 I need to go to New York to buy a certain book. That means a suspension
17 or adjournment of trial for the Defence to be allowed to travel to
18 New York to buy the book. There is no rules that provides for
19 adjournment for those purposes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we exaggerate too much, the
21 library of the ICTY does not only contain a lot of material, but is
22 always assisting in getting every book from available sources in the
23 Netherlands, including the library of the Peace Palace, which is nearer
24 by than New York libraries and is a very large international law library.
25 I'm not saying that you will find everything there, but if you say it may
1 cause you some problems, I do understand, but then to extend that you
2 have to travel to New York seems to be a bit over the top.
3 Please proceed. But we'll further listen to your submissions.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The instructions that we have in this
5 report, if you start from footnote number 1, you can see that you have a
6 London and New York cited as the sources, footnote number 2, London,
7 Cambridge university, Harvard, New York.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: May I just ask, Mr. Lukic, is it not possible to
9 order those books rather than to go to London or to go to New York?
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, do you believe that we
11 need to buy 200 books for every expert witness? That is not possible.
12 It was possible just to make a copy of certain page.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just following your argument, you put the argument
14 that it means that the case must adjourn, you must fly to New York to go
15 and buy a book. Now, the decision to buy the book is your decision. I'm
16 just saying instead of flying to New York, you can order it.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we can order it.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. So I'm not arguing with --
19 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I exaggerated a bit.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the points I'm making.
21 MR. LUKIC: I accept.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] But we cannot be
24 requested to go around and collect the materials relating to the expert
25 witness report reviewed by the expert witness and that he is referring
1 to. If he is referring to a certain document, we must be given this
2 document. Today we heard from the Prosecution that all the material from
3 the footnote that are in the OTP system have been made available. You
4 heard the Prosecution saying that. But we need all the materials. If an
5 expert witness is going to make reference to something, we must be given
6 that reference.
7 Secondly, I can tell you that if we go to Sarajevo now and try to
8 find some newspaper from the archive, we would not be able be to acquire
9 that. This Defence team has been asking Sarajevo to provide the most
10 trivial information such as statistical data, and we have to wait between
11 six months and one year just for a reply whether they were going to agree
12 to provide us that. Every day we are in negotiations with Sarajevo.
13 It is also said that the focal point of this discussion according
14 to my colleague, Ms. Bibles, is only a small number of documents that
15 have not been disclosed. That is not correct. It's not just a small
16 portion. If you look at the number of pages, that's a vast part of what
17 is being cited here. Easily accessible to the Defence? It's not true.
18 It is almost not accessible at all. Or it might take six months to order
19 the books, as suggested by His Honour Judge Moloto, and then wait for
20 them to arrive and be delivered. If they say that if this is not
21 accessible, it is questionable whether it is to the prejudice of the
22 accused. Everything to the prejudice of the accused if his Defence
23 attorneys are not capable of preparing his Defence case.
24 We also heard a very long explanation of why 65 ter is missing 60
25 pages of material, crucial material is missing, 80 pages, 27 books, five
1 of which can be found in the library. I didn't understand that part of
2 the explanation at all, I must admit. What is there, what isn't there,
3 what we have been given and what we haven't been given.
4 They admitted that some archive materials are not in the OTP
5 system, so they clearly admitted we haven't disclosed this to you.
6 We heard today that they are prepared, for some of the materials
7 used by Mr. Donia, to supply us with. They did so but we don't know what
8 it contains.
9 Do the Prosecution agree that we apply the same practice in
10 disclosing our materials to them and we are going to request them to give
11 us this answer? Are they expecting us to disclose the materials relating
12 to our expert witnesses in the same fashion? Have the Rules been set in
13 that way, it would have been done so, but this is not what the Rules say.
14 The Rules say that the materials must be disclosed 30 days before an
15 expert witness begins his testimony. Have they fulfilled this
16 obligation? No, they haven't.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, to assist the Chamber, could you provide
18 us with the authorities saying that every single footnote reference that
19 the underlying material to that reference should be disclosed under all
20 circumstances? Because that apparently is the position you're taking,
21 and when you say what is the Prosecution expecting, as far as our experts
22 will be, if it ever comes to that stage, then I take it, and I'm looking
23 to you, Ms. Bibles and to you Mr. Groome, that you would apply the same
24 standards that accessible material, material in the public domain,
25 et cetera, that there is no need to disclose that, if it's footnote
1 material in expert report.
2 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. We're simply saying that we
3 understand the jurisprudence at the ICTY and we follow that, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, that seems to be a vital issue in
5 your debate, on whether every single underlying document should be
6 disclosed and then of course the question in full or not in full. That
7 seems to be the key issue. Could you also expand on that? I was
8 interrupting you but could you not forget that part of the debate.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I'm trying to say is that so far
10 I haven't taken part in the trial because I haven't received all the
11 material made in footnotes. I'm talking about the cases that
12 I participated before in this Tribunal. On the other hand, we provided
13 everything that our expert witness made reference to. We have, for
14 example, the Milosevic case, when the issue of accepting Dr. Donia's
15 paragraph - this is on 15 February 2007, paragraph 7 - where it was
16 stated that there was a reference missing of the available source, and
17 that the Chamber would treat this issue as a personal opinion of the
18 witness rather than his expert opinion.
19 So if the OTP is bringing Mr. Donia as a fact witness here, we
20 will see which facts he's familiar with. However, if he's brought here
21 as an expert witness, we demand that the material that he used in
22 preparing his expert report we ask that to be disclosed to us.
23 Otherwise, we demand that the footnotes be removed because frankly
24 speaking at this point in time we are not able to check whether
25 everything that is stated in the footnotes is really accurate and true.
1 That's as far as the disclosure is concerned. The OTP did not
2 want even to tackle the issue whether Mr. Donia is really an expert or
3 not, and whether he had worked as an expert. It was only said that he
4 testified 14 times. Our position is that despite so many appearances, he
5 did not work as an expert in this particular case.
6 As for his methodology, this is not a scientific methodology. He
7 himself said that his terms of reference was to support the indictment,
8 and it is even contained in one of the titles of his reports. In his
9 report, he provided expert opinion about military, psychiatric,
10 psychological, ethnographic, and all manner of issues, demographic,
11 constitutional, legal matters. We believe that he was -- that he was not
12 proposed to testify about that, nor does he have any requisite
13 qualifications to testify about these issues.
14 What is his report about? His report is about the assemblies of
15 Republika Srpska. He dealt with this issue by taking out of the context
16 and according to his own admission he took out of context certain
17 statements and included them into his report in order to corroborate the
18 indictment. We believe that this is not how an independent expert should
19 operate that this Court should take into consideration when deliberating
20 their judgement.
21 He is not here to help the procedure but, rather, to provide
22 support to the indictment. We know that for a long time he worked for
23 the Prosecution in the Kosovo trials, Mr. Milutinovic et al, and that
24 Mr. Coo had been removed and dismissed as an expert witness precisely for
25 that reason. The memorandum that was mentioned at the beginning of
1 Mrs. Bibles' submission is something that we received on Friday, with all
2 the corrections, and the Chamber says that they are not aware of that.
3 Now we hear that they are prepared to provide this as evidence. Has this
4 been properly disclosed to us, if it was given to us on Friday? No, it
6 There are other numerous objections that we perhaps don't have
7 enough time today to discuss in relation to Mr. Donia, but we believe if
8 we really want to discuss the issue whether he's an expert or not, the
9 materials must be disclosed in time. And even if that had been done, we
10 believe that on the basis of these two reports and an annex, Mr. Donia
11 cannot qualify as an expert and we believe that this Chamber must not
12 accept him as an expert witness. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. The Chamber will consider the
15 Ms. Bibles, you were on your feet.
16 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, if I could just correct a few points
17 made by Mr. Lukic?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then very short and then Mr. Lukic has an
19 opportunity to respond to that.
20 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 First, the discussion regarding the trips to London. Mr. Lukic
22 referred to footnote 2, which cites seven materials. All of those are in
23 the OTP database, had been disclosed, and now were provided -- that
24 reference material was provided to the Defence.
25 Number 2, I'd like to correct the record.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, that saves you at least a trip to London.
2 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I missed one topic. Footnotes were not
3 associated in any way with disclosures, so we don't know which disclosure
4 is for which footnote.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That is --
6 MR. LUKIC: That was promised, never done too.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you also include that, Ms. Bibles, whether
8 that was promised and whether you did it or not.
9 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, on the 25th of July, there was a
10 request to our team to provide additional material regarding the
11 footnotes. I responded immediately and indicated that we would provide a
12 chart of the documents cited along with 65 ter numbers or reference
13 numbers. And that -- in e-mail I advised that there were documents not
14 in the OTP system that were open source material, so this is not a new
15 concept. This has been discussed in the conversations back and forth.
16 We then did provide a chart that listed the footnote number with the
17 document and the ERN number or 65 ter number. We provided --
18 JUDGE ORIE: When did you do that, Ms. Bibles?
19 MS. BIBLES: That was on the 7th of August. We went back through
20 and found a few additional 65 ter documents that were on that list, and
21 when I provided on two weeks ago today the list of exhibits that
22 I intended to either use or tender with Dr. Donia, we also provided that
23 chart again and we bolded those items that we had found additional
24 information on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Any dispute about this, about this historical sketch
1 given by Ms. Bibles, Mr. Lukic?
2 MR. LUKIC: I really don't know what my learned friend is talking
3 about. I have a list in front of me. I don't have any mention of
5 JUDGE ORIE: So the chart, Ms. Bibles, could you be a bit more
6 precise so as to assist Mr. Lukic in where he could find it? When it was
8 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honours. I am opening that document right
9 now. We sent it attached to an e-mail on the 7th of August. It was a
10 PDF format. Apparently, PDF files are not working on this computer at
11 the moment, but that was the file that was sent on the 7th of August,
12 attached to an e-mail, and the concern was to make sure that we could
13 send a chart that could be sent via e-mail.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, 7th of August.
15 MR. LUKIC: I'm telling you I'm holding the list. I don't know
16 if is it from 7 August because it doesn't -- here is the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: But the chart --
18 MR. LUKIC: It's on 19th of August, so it's printed after that
19 probably. But on that chart, I don't see footnotes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, but 65 ter numbers, if I understand Ms. Bibles
22 Are they related to footnotes, Ms. Bibles?
23 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. The first -- the chart that was
24 sent on the 7th of August and then a revised chart on the 14th of August
25 were both PDF charts that started off with the footnote number, a
1 description of the item, and then either an ERN number or a 65 ter number
2 where they existed.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's, Mr. Lukic, apparently there is some
4 confusion about what to look at exactly.
5 Ms. Bibles if you would proceed with the short brief comments on
6 Mr. Lukic's submissions.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. The final point would be
8 the memorandum Mr. Lukic referred to was provided on I believe it was the
9 22nd or the 23rd of July. That was noticed or provided -- there is
10 information about it in the 94 bis notice as a footnote, that there is a
11 small area that we might discuss with Dr. Donia, testifying that was
12 beyond the 65 ter summary, and we asked Dr. Donia to provide a memorandum
13 about that area. And that was provided to the Defence in July. That is
14 the errata that he corrected and then we provided that errata as well as
15 the clarified memorandum with the errata in it last Friday.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic I promised you an opportunity to briefly
18 MR. LUKIC: Clarified is corrected. It's changed. This
19 memorandum was changed. It's not what the term was used, clarified.
20 I could not find, and I checked with my case manager, he cannot locate
21 this document with the footnotes in the chart so if that document can be
22 printed so we see it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think two things need to be printed. First, the
24 e-mail to which it was attached. And second, then, I don't know how long
25 that list is, Ms. Bibles.
1 MS. BIBLES: It's 17 pages, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: 17 pages. Is there any way to print it out and give
3 it to Mr. Lukic?
4 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We would then meanwhile continue with the
6 examination of the present witness. The Chamber will further consider
7 the matter and we will proceed now, first in closed session in order to
8 allow the witness to enter the courtroom.
9 [Closed session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 Witness RM249, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.
22 You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Hello, sir.
1 A. Hello.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to
3 go into closed session for the first couple of questions because it could
4 potentially reveal the witness's identity.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would private session do?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be sufficient.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 15439-15441 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Are you familiar with Goran Zekic?
3 A. Yes, I've heard of the name, Goran Zekic, yes.
4 Q. Do you know that he, as the representative of the Serbs and a
5 member of the parliament of -- the parliament before the war, that he was
6 killed around that time?
7 A. Yes. As I've said, I heard of his name, and there were rumours
8 in town to the effect that one of those who had been killed was possibly
9 the gentleman whose name you just mentioned.
10 Q. Up until 1995, were there any Serbs, pre-war Serbs, remaining in
11 Srebrenica? Did they remain up until 1995?
12 A. Yes. And I can give you some names. There was this lady in a
13 mixed marriage, I'm trying to her remember name, and again I'm afraid of
14 making a mistake. Yes, there definitely were several families remaining.
15 Q. Will you tell the Court, please, whether you are aware of the
16 humanitarian operation with the code name "Padobran" or parachute?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you restart your answer?
19 A. Yes. What I saw and heard from others indicates that this
20 operation was carried out in order to help the population of Srebrenica
21 get some food. This operation was well-planned, well-designed, and it
22 seemed it would be successful, and there were some parts of it that were
23 successful, namely the food was delivered successfully several times. I
24 know that some people managed to get this food. This food was
25 air-dropped and some of those packages were dropped right at the
1 demarcation line, so it wasn't easy getting to it.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Delivering the food to the population of the Srebrenica enclave
4 in this manner, did it improve the situation in Srebrenica?
5 A. No, it could not have improved the situation because this type of
6 aid was available only to those who were physically and able and healthy.
7 I couldn't get that food because as a wounded man I couldn't go and fight
8 with other residents to get some food. I know that the elderly, the
9 women and children, could not get their hands on any of that food, nobody
10 would bring the food to you and tell you, "Well, here, this belongs to
12 Q. Are you familiar with any attacks launched from the Srebrenica
13 enclave on the nearby Serbian villages, specifically Kravica?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue there, we have heard, if not ten
15 times, then at least seven to eight times, about these attacks. Is there
16 any dispute that there were attacks launched around Srebrenica from
17 within Srebrenica?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. There is no dispute.
19 It was actually part of the opening statement, although I think -- I
20 don't know where Mr. Stojanovic is going with this, but it may be
21 relevant to examination of the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I. So I do not know whether
23 Mr. Stojanovic wants to ask the witness whether he has knowledge of it
24 which seems to be pretty irrelevant, unless there are specific reasons to
25 ask these questions.
1 And Mr. Stojanovic, is it just to establish something that is not
2 in dispute? That's a waste of time. Could you please think about where
3 you're heading for and then continue without any risk of wasting time.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. This was just an
5 introduction to my following question, which stems from the
7 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you mentioned the reasons for
8 the hatred due to which you were afraid of remaining in the territory of
9 Srebrenica. These reasons for the mutual hatred that existed there, is
10 it in any way linked to these events that I just asked you about?
11 A. No, it's not linked in any way.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Pause between question and answer and between answer
13 and question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, my mistake. I am not
15 linking this in any way whatsoever. If you wish, I can talk at length
16 about the ways and manner of resistance put up by people of Srebrenica.
17 I was simply familiar with the situation because I witnessed it on a
18 daily basis, but I'm not connecting this with hatred. There was hatred
19 in Srebrenica already at the beginning of the war. If hadn't been any
20 hatred displayed, why was Srebrenica put under a blockade? Why didn't
21 they leave a corridor, and why didn't everyone sit down and agree and
22 say, "Gentlemen, we need to reach an agreement, we need to evacuate the
23 population," so all this intense hatred among the Serb population and the
24 army started from the very beginning and it only deepened with time in
25 the way that you mentioned, and that is when people had to go to the
1 Serbian villages looking for food. Imagine us being kept in this
2 courtroom for five or six months without any food. What can we do? We
3 have to break through a door and try to find food somewhere.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think you've answered the question. Next
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Mladic is trying to get your
8 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, I can hear you speaking, so therefore
10 the volume is too high.
11 Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber is really concerned about hearing
12 repetitious evidence which we have heard a lot of times, whereas this
13 witness primarily, I think, was called to testify about the executions
14 which he escaped, and all the rest until now is for the seventh up to the
15 tenth time that we hear such evidence. We don't need it a hundred times,
16 especially when it's not in dispute. So please proceed.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Sir, can you tell me this? On the 11th of July,
19 1992 [as interpreted], did you and your family receive any instruction
20 from anyone on where to go?
21 A. No. No. I didn't receive any instructions relating to me
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are recorded as having said 1992. Is that the
24 year you are referring to?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I said
1 11th July 1995. It may have been the slip of the tongue but I think
2 I said 1995.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And that's how the witness understood it as well,
4 Witness RM249? I see you're nodding yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I understood that the
6 gentleman was asking me about 1995, and I gave the answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'm looking at the clock. It's time for
8 a break. A break now of 20 minutes, Witness, and not much longer. We
9 first move into closed session before we take that break, and we will
10 resume in closed session after the break in order to allow the witness to
11 enter the courtroom.
12 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Stojanovic, you don't have to make a pause before you start,
10 but immediately after the first answer, you have to.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We can continue, Witness? Before you decided to head off towards
13 Potocari, a large group of men passed by you in the opposite direction.
14 Did you know where they were heading to?
15 A. Yes. In my statement I said that these people were moving
16 towards Potocari. My house is located in the place whose name
17 I mentioned in my statement. So from that position, it was possible to
18 observe the column of people passing by. It is possible that I mentioned
19 a group leaving towards Potocari. It was clear to me that the people of
20 Srebrenica were leaving Srebrenica seeking salvation in the area of
21 Potocari with the Dutch Battalion. Being wounded, I also understood that
22 the only way for me to seek shelter would be to go to the DutchBat.
23 Therefore, I didn't have any dilemma as to which direction to take. That
24 is to say, I decided to go to Potocari.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please focus your answers very
1 much on what is asked? The only question was whether you knew where they
2 were heading to, not whether you had any hesitation where to go for
3 yourself or whatever.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see, before you started towards
7 Potocari, any armed men moving towards Jaglici and Susnjari?
8 A. Not in that area. I wasn't able to see that. If you are
9 familiar with this region, this area is far away from the place that you
10 have just mentioned. Perhaps one kilometre or maybe even more.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You said no, I had no opportunity to see it in that
12 area. That fully answers the question. If Mr. Stojanovic wants to know
13 the reasons why, he'll ask you for it.
14 Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Upon your arrival in Potocari, you were given information that
17 General Mladic had come there. What was exactly said to you about what
18 General Mladic told the refugees?
19 A. The people in Potocari who told me that General Mladic had
20 arrived passed this information from mouth to mouth, and that is how
21 I learned about his arrival. I wasn't able to understand any orders that
22 he had given. I only learned from people close to me that the general
23 had arrived in Potocari.
24 Q. Did you receive any information that General Mladic addressed the
25 refugees and guaranteed safety to all of them?
1 A. I couldn't comprehend that in the sense that you are stating it.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
3 P1990 under seal. We need page 2 in both versions. The penultimate
4 paragraph. And then I'll move on to the last paragraph. So once again
5 I please would like to remind that this not be broadcast.
6 Q. Sir, let us look together at this, and please focus on the third
7 paragraph from the bottom in both the English and the B/C/S versions,
8 where, in the statement that you gave at the time, and by which you stood
9 fully, as you said today, you said that you heard from some women that
10 General Mladic was in Potocari and that he delivered a speech
11 guaranteeing security to all the refugees. Do you stand by this
12 assertion in your statement?
13 A. Yes, I do. Your question was addressed to me, whether I felt any
14 security and safety guaranteed by Mr. Mladic, and I told you --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think that is at least not how we understood the
16 question. I think the question, as Mr. Stojanovic put it to you now, was
17 the one he wanted to put and that question has been answered.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. So we can confirm that you fully stand by this portion of your
21 statement, "yes" or "no"?
22 A. I fully stand by this statement. However, your question --
23 Q. Thank you, thank you. I'm going to proceed. Please look at the
24 last paragraph in your statement, where there is mention of a name. I'm
25 going to read it. Where you say I saw Ibran Mustafovic. Now, my
1 question is: Is this a proper spelling of the last name of this man?
2 A. Yes. I also noticed a mistake here. It should read "Mustafic"
3 instead of "Mustafovic."
4 Q. In the statement that you have before you, you say admitting that
5 this was a 1996 statement, that this man was taken away during that day
6 and you have never seen him again. Do you know today whether this person
7 is still alive or not?
8 A. Yes. Not only that I have this information, but it is common
9 knowledge that this gentleman, who tried in many ways to ingratiate
10 himself and become politically active, I think that he was condemned by
11 the entire public of Srebrenica for everything that he did, and that he
12 still may be doing to this day by the way he is treating the people of
14 Q. I'm going to ask you about that.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question, sorry, if I may just interrupt,
16 Mr. Stojanovic, I don't think the witness answered the question you
17 asked. Do you know whether this man is still alive or not?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He is alive.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know that during his stay in Srebrenica, before July 1995,
22 he was the subject of an attempted assassination and that he was wounded
23 in the process?
24 A. Believe me, I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. Can you please tell the Court what was Mr. Mustafic doing on the
1 day when you saw him on that particular date when you were in Potocari?
2 A. I have to give you a rather lengthy answer. Mr. Mustafic had
3 been politically active before the war. He was known to a lot of people
4 and that's why I recognised had him as well. He was accompanied by a
5 gentleman I think called Hamed who was also a political activist.
6 I found it strange that these two men were together in the same area
7 because they were politically active before the war. After that, I saw
8 some Serb soldiers in the company of Mustafic and they all left together.
9 I said that Mustafic is still alive, and how he managed to survive, I
10 don't know.
11 JUDGE ORIE: This is the little pause. Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. At the moment when you saw him, was the procedure of boarding the
14 buses by the refugees already in progress?
15 A. I believe that was on the first day following our arrival. I
16 don't know if they tried to carry out the evacuation on that first day.
17 I know it started on the second day. So towards the evening of the first
18 day, that is to say in the afternoon on the 11th of July, proper
19 evacuation would actually start on the 12th of July. Now, I can tell you
20 that I'm not sure whether there was any evacuation carried out on the
21 evening of the 11th.
22 Q. You have your statement in front of you and you said that you saw
23 this gentleman on the 12th of July 1995.
24 A. Yes. That was the second time. I first saw him, as I described
25 a minute ago, as soon as I arrived in Potocari, I spotted him, and the
1 last time he was seen on the 12th together with the Serbian soldiers who
2 took him away. Yes, the evacuation was on the 12th.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have now 1D1046 in
5 Q. Sir, while we're waiting for the document to be uploaded, let me
6 ask you this: Do you know that the gentleman we are discussing now
7 published a book about the events he experienced, and have you read that
9 A. What I read is the daily press. I read it on internet. And in
10 the daily press, I read that this gentleman published a book. I know
11 nothing more about the book, not a single page of its content.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question -- the simple answer to
13 the question whether you read the book is no, you didn't read it.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we need to correct
19 the number. 1D00084. This is the 65 ter number. 1D00084. Could we see
20 page 387 of the book, of this exhibit? And I would like to see the last
21 paragraph underlined.
22 Q. He says in the book, which is called "Planned Chaos," in
23 describing the same days in July 1995, he says:
24 "During that time, on the little bridge across the Rabin creek
25 and manned by Chetniks, several soldiers of the Dutch Battalion,
1 Nesib Mandic, Ibro Nuhanovic, and Camila were together letting through
2 and separating the people.
3 Do you know, sir, who Nesib Mandic is, Ibro and Nuhanovic and who
4 Camila is?
5 A. Personally I didn't know Nesib Mandic. I didn't know personally
6 Ibro Nuhanovic, nor Madam Camila. However, by reading the papers, I know
7 that they were the people who tried to conduct some sort of negotiations
8 during the time when the people were in Potocari. This is what I know
9 from the papers, from the press.
10 Q. He goes on to say:
11 "I knew they had been in Bratunac negotiating but I could not
12 believe my eyes that, that several Dutch soldiers were working together
13 with the Chetniks and separating people."
14 My question is: Did you have an opportunity to see what
15 Ibran Mustafic describes in his book?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The next topic I want to ask you is this: When you went off to
18 board buses, is it true that members of international forces put up two
19 APCs in a funnel shape, together with red ribbons thus directing the
21 A. Yes, that's true. But it wasn't in the funnel shape. It was on
22 each side of the road and between those two APCs, there was a passage for
23 those who wished to go towards the buses.
24 Q. In the narrowest point of that passage between the two APCs,
25 there were members of international forces who let through towards the
1 buses some of the people proportionate to the number who could board the
2 buses. Is that true?
3 A. Yes. Let me explain. The first point of contact were the
4 soldiers of the Dutch Battalion. Once they let people through, then the
5 people would get to the Serb soldiers who checked them again, and the
6 Serb soldiers, when conducting their checks, would separate the people,
7 men from women and children. Women and children were given an option to
8 go towards the buses.
9 Q. How far was the place where the Serb soldiers separated the men
10 from the rest of the group? How far was that place from the place where
11 the members of international forces were standing?
12 A. That was immediately behind the two APCs used by the Dutch
13 soldiers. I can't tell you the exact distance in metres, but ten or so,
14 ten metres from the place where the Dutch soldiers stood to the place
15 where the Serbian soldiers stood, perhaps even less.
16 Q. On that morning, when you set out to board the buses which,
17 according to your statement, was on the 13th of July at about 8.00 in the
18 morning, were there any buses there at that moment?
19 A. I need to answer in a couple of sentences, if you allow me.
20 Q. Please go ahead.
21 A. As I passed through, a group of Serbian soldiers distanced
22 themselves in a very short time, perhaps less than a minute, and for me
23 that was enough time to allow me to enter the last bus which was some ten
24 metres to the front, perhaps even less than ten metres. So that's all
25 I needed to get on the bus. Once I got on the bus, I heard the voice of
1 the Serb soldiers asking, "Did any of the men enter buses?" And
2 everybody kept quiet. I was afraid that one of the women would tell me,
3 "Why don't you go and report yourself?" But none of them did. Following
4 that, another group of women and children boarded and they completely
5 concealed me. I sat on the floor of the bus and women and children who
6 boarded right behind me hid me, so I was completely concealed on the bus.
7 Q. I would like for us to look at the transcript of the testimony of
8 a witness in this trial, a member of the DutchBat, describing precisely
9 the same event at the same time, morning hours of 13th of July.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we see, Your Honours,
11 in e-court, the testimony dated 25th of April 2013, page of transcript,
12 10381, lines 10 to 20, please.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic?
14 JUDGE ORIE: In this case, I take it? This case, yes. Now, do
15 you want to put to the witness is there any inconsistency or is it
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's
18 inconsistent and that's precisely why I want to put this portion to the
19 witness. It was in this trial, as I have stated.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, now, have you -- if you want to show
21 this to the witness, have you uploaded that portion of the testimony in
22 e-court? Because otherwise, it might be difficult for --
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I did. I asked for
24 specific lines and I would read them out in B/C/S so that we can follow.
25 So it's page 10381, lines 10 to 20.
1 Q. Sir, by way of introduction, let me tell you again that this is
2 the testimony of a member of the DutchBat speaking about the 13th of July
3 morning hours. The question of the Prosecutor was:
4 "Q. Sir, on the second morning of the evacuation, that time
5 period when the Serbs had not yet arrived, in the absence of the Serbs,
6 would you say that the Bosnian Muslim refugees also exhibited eagerness
7 and desire to leave Srebrenica and were not forced on to the buses at
8 that time?"
9 When asked this by the Prosecution, the witness answered:
10 "A. Yes, they were eager to leave, and I also think because at
11 that time the Serb forces were not there, only the UN forces, in my mind
12 I think also that the refugees saw the opportunity to keep their families
13 together and board the buses and the trucks in a normal way, without
14 pushing or kicking or brutalising in any way."
15 Let me ask you, sir, based on your recollection, on the 13th of
16 July at 8.00 a.m., in -- at that check-point, at that ramp, at that
17 barricade, were there Serb forces present?
18 A. Yes, Serb forces were present. As I understood it, this
19 gentleman said, "I think." He said, "In my mind," which is to say that
20 he wasn't completely certain. Perhaps there were not as many as the Serb
21 soldiers there as there would be later. When I passed there was a group
22 of three to four Serb soldiers who were there and who moved away for a
23 short period of time. Women who passed afterwards said that the group of
24 Serb soldiers later was larger. It is likely that the Serb -- that the
25 Dutch soldier saw -- thought that the three to four Serb soldiers was a
1 negligible group, and I disagree with his statement that the Serb
2 soldiers were not present. They were present.
3 Q. Thank you. I will ask you to tell us again, irrespective of what
4 you said in your statement, this: The place where you saw that the men
5 who had been separated were being kept, would you tell us how far that
6 place was from the place where the members of international forces stood?
7 A. Well, I can't be fully precise when it comes to the distance in
8 metres but it wasn't that far. It was on the left side of the houses,
9 and I could see well while I stood there waiting that there were a lot of
10 people in front of me who wanted to leave. I wasn't able to leave that
11 quickly so while I stood there I observed. I saw a vehicle TAM 80 which
12 I knew from my army days. I saw it come in front of the house, and
13 people, men, were separated and taken to that house. They were separated
14 by the Serbian soldiers, which again confirms that the Serbian soldiers
15 were already there, albeit in small numbers.
16 Q. My question was: Can you estimate the distance of that house,
17 how far that house was?
18 A. Not that far. Perhaps 20 metres. Perhaps 10 to 15 metres. Of
19 course, one cannot be fully precise when relying on one's memory.
20 Q. Thank you. You said that the house was on the left side?
21 A. Yes, on the left side.
22 Q. For the sake of the record, would you tell us looking from where
23 was that house on the left house [as interpreted]?
24 A. Looking from the direction in which the people were moving, from
25 Potocari towards Srebrenica on the left side. So we were moving towards
1 Bratunac, and it was on the left side, on the road Potocari-Bratunac.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now could we see in e-court
4 P1132, which is a book by Jean-Rene Ruez, and the collection of documents
5 we used. Could we see page 24, please? Could we please enlarge the
6 upper left side of this aerial photograph?
7 Q. Witness, can you tell me, please, looking at this photograph --
8 A. It is too technical for me.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom on the middle part
10 from the -- so that we can see the road? Could we move that to the
11 right? Or, rather, to the left? I think that would be enough. Thank
13 Q. Can you now tell us where the facility was where you were and was
14 that the Vihor bus station or garage, rather?
15 A. It wasn't Vihor, it was Srebrenica Ekspres. That was the name of
16 the company who had its maintenance workshop for their vehicles, and this
17 is where I was. I was in that facility. And then the next evening
18 I spent in destroyed buses. I can't see those buses here. Perhaps you
19 could use my sketch. I can't really orient myself on this map. We see
20 buses here --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave,
22 could I ask for the photograph number 25 from the same collection of
23 photographs to be shown to the witness? Perhaps it would be better for
24 the witness. We sort of anticipated that the witness might have problems
25 orienting himself, so could we now see photograph 25, please?
1 If I may also ask this middle portion to be enlarged where we can
2 see this building with the blue roof, the road, and the building on the
3 right-hand side. Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, maybe this is a better photograph. Can you see here any
5 buses and does this photograph remind you of the place where you were?
6 A. It is incredible how I find it so difficult to find my bearings
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness is unable to find his
9 bearings here, you should proceed, I add to this that it's totally
10 unclear to --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I suggest --
12 JUDGE ORIE: One second. It's totally unclear to me what the
13 issue is you are covering at this moment. It's really unclear to me.
14 Perhaps you put questions such that the witness can answer and that
15 clarifies what issue you are raising here.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I understand. I will suspend this further exercise because
18 you're obviously finding it difficult. My next question is: How did you
19 understand the position and the role in the whole process of the
20 evacuation of people from Potocari of members of the international
21 forces? In your mind, what was their role?
22 A. It was completely unclear to me once I found myself in Potocari.
23 I wasn't able to receive any protection as a person who was wounded, and
24 it made me realise that the premonition of the people would come true,
25 which is that all men would be executed. I noticed other men in the area
1 who had surrendered, but these healthy men were the ones who were the
2 most afraid. I may have some chance, being wounded, and I had the
3 documents to prove that I was wounded at the beginning of the war on the
4 14th of May.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you've answered the question by saying
6 that it was completely unclear to you once you found yourself in
8 Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did you, at any point, witness members of the international
11 forces participating in the evacuation of the population?
12 A. As I already said, I saw Dutch soldiers in front, making sure
13 that people were passing through in smaller groups, and that after that
14 they were checked by the Serb soldiers. That was their participation.
15 There was no other form of participation.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please now
17 all take a look at a portion of a video, P1147? Document 28780 65 ter,
18 V9 --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stojanovic please speak slowly the
20 numbers? Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to slowly mention the
22 numbers. Perhaps you repeat it.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.
24 P1147, Srebrenica trial video, V0009267, excerpt started from 6.00 to
1 [Video-clip played]
2 JUDGE ORIE: There is only audio at this moment.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the clip.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Sir, this is a video clip from Potocari, following your
8 departure, when the evacuation was nearing its completion at around half
9 past 3.00, if we are to believe this time on the screen. This member of
10 the Serbian army is asking his words to be translated because he was
11 requesting members of the international forces to go over there and check
12 whether there was anyone else who wanted to leave, and then he added
13 that's their job. Is that how you understood the position of members of
14 the Dutch Battalion or let's say members of the international forces?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think the witness
17 has answered the question already. And I don't know that the playing of
18 the video is in any way germane to addressing that issue further.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, it seems to be asking for
20 opinion rather than anything else about a moment where the witness wasn't
22 Mr. Stojanovic, if you have any question of fact in relation to
23 this video, please put it to the witness.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.
25 Q. Before you left, were you in a position at any point to
1 communicate with members of the international forces in any shape or
3 A. Only when I was exiting and when I said that there were two white
4 APCs parked.
5 Q. Were you able, then, to see that those were the ones who decided
6 the number of people to pass through in order to board the buses?
7 A. The Serbian forces controlled everything. That was the
8 impression created among the people. The Serb forces even controlled
9 them. That's what people thought and had this impression. But since I'm
10 not an expert for this area, I would like you to ask me about what the
11 Judge said, that you should put me the questions that I can give you
12 answers to.
13 Q. Thank you for not being able to answer. We are not pressing you
14 to do so. If you cannot answer, I shall move on.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have again in e-court
16 document P1990. That's under seal and should not be broadcast. Let's
17 look at page 4, the last paragraph in the B/C/S, and the fourth paragraph
18 in the English.
19 Q. During examination-in-chief, you mentioned two names that you
20 said that you later found out that they were brothers.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You speak about that in the paragraph that I have just put to
23 you. So my question is: Where were they -- according to the information
24 that you had, where were they taken prisoner?
25 A. From what I learned during my capture, I learned that they had
1 been captured in a different area, not in the area where the women and
2 children were.
3 Q. What I'd like to ask you was whether they were captured as
4 members of the column passing through the forest from Srebrenica towards
5 the territory controlled by the 2nd Corps of the BH Army?
6 A. I don't know whether they were in the column. I know that both
7 of them were wounded and I know that they had been brought from another
8 location, not the location where the women and children were. That is to
9 say not from the last check-point where I exited.
10 Q. Did you ever find out what their last name was?
11 A. Many people, many relatives of theirs, showed interest in order
12 to find out what I knew, but all I can tell them was that I saw them,
13 that they were wounded, and that they had contact with the gentleman who
14 they addressed as a neighbour, who answered them in an angry way, and
15 that is all the information that I could provide to their families. Now,
16 you ask me about their last name. I did hear it, but I cannot remember
17 it now.
18 Q. I'm just asking you this in order to verify the documents used by
19 the Prosecution. Now, can you tell us whether you remembered correctly
20 the name of the Serb soldier that they contacted, with --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stojanovic please repeat the name?
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Mr. Stojanovic, you said now can you
23 tell us whether you remembered correctly the name of the Serb soldier
24 that they contacted, with -- and then the interpreters could not hear
25 you. Could you please repeat the name you mentioned?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. In the
2 witness's statement his name is Momcilo Ristanovic, aka Zuco. I'm asking
3 this question on account of the investigation that we are carrying out on
4 the ground.
5 A. May I answer now? This name appeared when communicating with the
6 relatives and friends. Savo Ristanovic is his real name. However, some
7 people established a connection with Momcilo because they were related
8 and probably that's why this mistake happened. His exact name is
9 Savo Ristanovic. I just told you that the contact between these two men
10 and him, or rather with me, was in order to find out more. When I said
11 that they addressed the Serb soldier, they said that it could have been
12 Momcilo but they quickly corrected themselves and said that his name was
13 Savo Ristanovic.
14 Q. So let me try to follow what you said. Would you agree with me
15 that the name stated in your statement, based on your subsequent
16 knowledge, is incorrect, and that the person that you are referring to in
17 your statement, and according to the family of these two men, was
18 Savo Ristanovic and not Momcilo Ristanovic?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's what the witness just explained to you.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask one additional question? Was the
22 nickname of Savo Ristanovic Zuco or did he have a different nickname?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The nickname Zuco is correct.
24 However, the family of these two lads who were killed made a wrongful
25 connection and said Momcilo, but the real name should be Savo Ristanovic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Q. And now another name that you mention and I'm again asking you
4 this for the purpose of our investigations. (redacted)
9 JUDGE ORIE: We remove to private session.
10 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
9 [Private session]
9 [Closed session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed,
24 Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Witness, when you jumped out of the truck in which you were
2 travelling through that hill, do you know did that truck stop at any
3 point in time?
4 A. Perhaps you misunderstood something here. If you read carefully
5 at the statement, you will see that I had jumped out of the truck at the
6 point where the truck was already halted, when it had already stopped.
7 Q. All right. Let's see if we can clarify that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Please proceed. You're
9 invited to make a little pause.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let's see if we can clarify something that is not entirely clear
12 to me. To the best of your recollection, what time of the night, and
13 according to your testimony it was the night between the 13th and the
14 14th, so at what point in time that night did you jump out of the
16 A. While the Serb soldiers were still there at the school, one of
17 them asked what time it was, and they replied to him that it was 12.00,
18 midnight, at night. The time it took them to drive the people to the
19 place of the execution was between 20 and 30 minutes of driving. So the
20 time when they started the first executions was between 12.30 and
21 1.00 a.m.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look in e-court,
23 P1999 -- 1990. And please do not broadcast that outside of the
24 courtroom. Could we look at page 7, please, the first paragraph in the
25 B/C/S version and page 6, the second paragraph from the bottom in the
1 English version.
2 Q. While we are waiting for it to appear, would it be accurate to
3 say that you were told that you needed to go and work on repairing a
4 shelter? Were you told that before they boarded you on those trucks?
5 A. Yes. Some said that and the other soldier said that we were
6 being taken to a military prison. So there were two versions: One of
7 them said that we had to go and repair the military shelters, and the
8 others were saying don't be afraid, you're being taken to a military
10 Q. You can read that in front of you. In your statement, this is
11 your statement, and you said that it is consistent with your best
12 recollections, the way it's described here is that at that time, when you
13 were told that you needed to go to repair the shelter was at about
14 3.00 a.m. on 14 July 1995. Do you see that?
15 A. Yes. I see that it says that, 3.00 in early morning hours, so
16 that is to say that we have a difference of about an hour and a half.
17 Now, whether I was not fully precise back then, I don't know, but you can
18 check through all of my other statements that when one Serb soldier asked
19 the other Serb soldier what time it was, the answer was midnight. So if
20 we take that as an accurate fact, everything else, no matter how we
21 calculate it, cannot be fully precise. As I said to you, it took some 30
22 minutes to go to the execution site. So if we have this difference of
23 about an hour and a half, I cannot fully explain it, but if you look at
24 all of my statements, you will see that what I'm saying now --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I think what Mr. Stojanovic intended to do
1 is to draw the attention of the Chamber to a slight inconsistency of one
2 hour or one hour and a half. You've done so, Mr. Stojanovic. Please
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right. So let me ask you this: The shooting itself is not
6 something that you personally observed, right?
7 A. No. You again misunderstood somewhat. I said in all of my
8 statements is that they took the people to the execution site. The truck
9 stopped and then they started shooting people, they had already shot
10 three men while I was still sitting on the truck. The men fell down
11 and -- those who were being shot, and two of the people sitting on the
12 bench with me on the truck started fleeing and were also hit by shots.
13 So at that point in time, five people were already killed, and it is then
14 that I jumped off the truck and started fleeing.
15 It was night time, the terrain was steep, quite steep, which
16 helped me in a way, and that the lights on the truck remained on, so the
17 area in front of the truck was lit up. The side -- sides on each side of
18 the truck were less lit, just lit up with the light that reflected off
19 the front.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The people who remained on the truck outside of those five,
23 following the moment when you jumped out, you did not see, you did not
24 observe their execution, right?
25 A. Yes, right. I fled. I fled but I heard very loud shots that
1 resonated, the sound resonated.
2 Q. Thank you. How distant were you from the place where the shots
3 were heard from?
4 A. It is very difficult to estimate the distance, especially since
5 the terrain was quite steep and I rolled down the hill all the way down
6 to a tiny river where I found shelter by a rock. It is from that area
7 that I heard very loud shots resonating all the way until the end.
8 I remained in that place until the shots stopped.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Later on, you heard that that area is called Rasica Gaj?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You heard it from the people who are familiar with the area. My
14 question is: Following all of these events, at any point in time, did
15 you learn whether any exhumation had taken place there?
16 A. Mr. Murat, who conducts research, he has an office in Tuzla, and
17 at that point in time I also worked in Tuzla, so this man came to see me
18 one day and he asked me to describe the area where the execution --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you heard of any
20 exhumation at that spot. Did you or did you not?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. I heard of the
22 exhumation in the vicinity of that place, not at the exact location but
23 in the vicinity.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers the question.
25 Please, Mr. Stojanovic, proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. And I'm concluding. When you say in the immediate vicinity, what
3 exactly location are you referring to?
4 A. I don't know the exact location, but if you get in touch with the
5 gentleman I just mentioned, I know that some of the victims are already
6 buried in the Potocari memorial centre, some of the victims who were
7 together with me at the time of the execution.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You are unable to tell us what the distance was.
9 That is the answer to the question.
10 Mr. Stojanovic.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now, tell us, please, did you learn at any point in time where
13 the remains of those people buried in Potocari were found, of the people
14 mentioned by you today?
15 A. I was interested before, and I'm still interested, I wanted to
16 meet with this gentleman to learn the exact location where they were
17 identified, and so far I haven't been able to find that out.
18 Q. Is it true that in the area of Rasica Gaj, they were unable to
19 identify any burial site?
20 A. I said in the immediate vicinity, and this is what I learned from
21 the media.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, and if I may put
24 another two questions, which need to be put in private session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 15475 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is there any need to ask further
20 questions to the witness?
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, there is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
25 Q. Witness, you were asked about your recollection of the names of
1 some of the individuals that you were with by Mr. Stojanovic on
2 cross-examination. What I'd like to start by showing you is a document,
3 it's 65 ter -- well, no, I'm sorry, it's P1982. It should not be
4 broadcast, and it is the --
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the Chamber's benefit, confidential annex D
6 to Mr. Janc's report.
7 Q. When you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic about whether you
8 remembered the names, full names, at least, of the individuals you were
9 with on the date that you were nearly executed. You said you couldn't
10 remember. And I want to ask you about this to see if it refreshes your
11 recollection. We will need to go to page 312. And I just want to refer
12 you to the left-hand side or column, the second from the left, and you
13 can see a number of names there. The first one I want to direct your
14 attention to is the individual named at number 7.
15 A. Yes, I can see it. (redacted) I mentioned him by name in my
16 statement and I believe that Mr. Stojanovic asked me about him. That was
17 a man who worked with the Dutch Battalion and who was taken to the school
18 where --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, could you please phrase your
20 question for the witness? You've asked him to direct his attention to
21 number 7. What is your question?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. My question is whether or not the information that you see
24 relative to that individual is consistent with your recollection of his
25 identity? That would be the age first, and obviously the name?
1 A. Yes, yes. That's the man that I mentioned.
2 Q. Then let me ask you about similarly about the individuals listed
3 under item number 8.
4 A. Yes. These are the two brothers that I also mentioned, (redacted)
5 (redacted) They were wounded and they were also brought into the school
7 Q. Does this help refresh your recollection as to their last name?
8 A. I never mentioned their last name. It was their relatives who
9 always mentioned their full names. Believe me that many names were
10 mentioned and I couldn't remember all of them, so I cannot confirm this
11 with any certainty apart from what I said that their first names were
13 Q. Thank you for that. Let me ask you about item number 16 or
14 rather the name that's associated with number 16. Do you recognise that
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, if you want to keep this all
23 confidential, not to be broadcast, then reading all the names from the
24 list is not what you're expected to do, is it?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I haven't indicated what the document is and
1 I think that preserves the integrity of the reason for the
2 confidentiality, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: All the references to the names will be redacted.
4 And if you have further questions which require the names to be
5 mentioned, please ask for private session.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Then I'll ask for private session,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 15480-15482 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
8 Witness, this concludes your testimony in this Court. I'd like
9 to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
10 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
11 Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. All of us who can say
13 that we are positive human beings, we have to fight for justice and
14 truth. I would like to say here that my aim is always to fight for
15 justice and against hatred. In actual fact, we are talking here about
16 the outcome of this hatred.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I appreciate that you have positive
18 feelings, but it's not the place at this moment to share them in a little
19 speech, so you are -- it's -- would you please follow the usher? And
20 after we have turned into closed session.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you once again.
22 [Closed session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I already would like to remind the Defence that the
6 deadline for the Rule 94 bis notice falls on the 26th of August in
7 relation to Witness Theunens. I would have said more about it but I just
8 remind you of that.
9 Then I also remind the Prosecution that there are deadlines in
10 relation to the remainder of the 92 bis and 92 quater filings. I would
11 have said more about it if we had more time, but I just leave it at that
12 at this very moment.
13 And then, Mr. Registrar, we are in open session again?
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the last thing I would just briefly put
16 on the record is the following: (redacted)
5 We adjourn for the day, and the Chamber apologises to all those
6 assisting us that we have stolen ten extra minutes from your time, and we
7 will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 22nd of August, 9.30 in the morning
8 in this same courtroom, III.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of
11 August, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.