Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15915

 1                           Friday, 30 August 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [Accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 8     is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             The Chamber regrets the late start.

11             I put on the record that the Chamber received a form like

12     yesterday, absence from court due to illness, although the attachment

13     says that it's not due to illness.  It is dated the 30th of August.  It

14     says that Mr. Mladic has discussed his absence with counsel and that he

15     understands his right to be present but that he waives his right on this

16     date and gives consent for the proceedings to continue.

17             There are no --

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I refer to the attachment which expresses, signed by

20     the principal officer, that it's not due to illness that Mr. Mladic is

21     absent.

22             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24                           WITNESS:  EMIR TURKUSIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through Interpreter]

Page 15916

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Turkusic.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to again remind you that you're still bound

 4     by the solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth

 5     and nothing but the truth.

 6             Ms. Harbour will now put some questions to you in re-examination.

 7     Ms. Harbour you may proceed.

 8                           Re-examination Ms. Harbour:

 9        Q.   Dr. Turkusic I have two topics to cover with you today, and

10     you've already been here a long time, so I'd like to complete this as

11     quickly as possible although I would likely need 15 to 20 minutes rather

12     than the ten that I estimated yesterday.  To complete this quickly, I'll

13     need your help, so I'd like to ask that you please listen carefully to my

14     questions and limit your answers to the information that I ask for.

15             I'm going to start with Markale 2 which you discussed at length

16     yesterday.

17             But first I would like to provide you with a hard copy of the

18     report that you wrote on the 29th of August, 1995, the day after the

19     Markale 2 incident.

20             MS. HARBOUR:  The pages that I would like to give to the witness

21     are found at Exhibit P498 and it's pages 18 through 21 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Dr. Turkusic, I would like you to take your time to refamiliarise

23     yourself with this report without providing any comments and just let me

24     know when you're ready for my questions.

25             Could we turn to page 19 in B/C/S and 16 in English of Exhibit

Page 15917

 1     P498.  I would like you to look under "findings."  It's the second page

 2     of the document you're looking at, Dr. Turkusic.  Under findings, in

 3     paragraph number 1, could you tell us, does this paragraph relate to the

 4     stabiliser fin recovered at Markale 2?

 5        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

 6             MS. HARBOUR:  Now could I ask the court officer to hand to

 7     Dr. Turkusic the artefact which is 65 ter 22925 in our case and is

 8     admitted in the Karadzic case as P1454.

 9        Q.   Dr. Turkusic, I have some questions for you about this object,

10     but before I ask them, please take time to inspect it without providing

11     any comments.  In your report, which is on the monitors, you refer to a

12     steel part on which one fin was marked with number 1, with a waterproof

13     felt pen.  Is the stabiliser in your hand marked with number 1?

14        A.   Yes.  I see it.

15        Q.   Could you please hold up the stabiliser and indicate for the

16     Chamber where this marking is.

17        A.   [Indicates]

18        Q.   May the record reflect that the witness has held up the

19     stabiliser and indicated a fin.

20             In the same paragraph, you describe ten fins, welded by twos, and

21     you provide several other detailed descriptions.  Does this stabiliser in

22     your hand match the descriptions in your report?

23        A.   Yes.  This stabiliser has five pairs of fins which makes a total

24     of ten fins, and they are welded on to the body of the stabiliser, as you

25     can see.

Page 15918

 1        Q.   In the last sentence of this paragraph we've been looking at in

 2     your report, you indicate that printed on this object was MK M74, and

 3     KB 9307.  Do you see those markings on the object in your hand?

 4        A.   The markings are clearly visible and undamaged.

 5        Q.   Could you please hold up the stabiliser and indicate for the

 6     Chamber where those markings are?

 7        A.   [Indicates]

 8        Q.   May the record reflect that the witness held up the fin and

 9     indicated on the bottom part of the stabiliser.

10             Does the part of the stabiliser in your hand that bears those

11     markings, does that rotate?  Feel free to actually touch that part and

12     observe.

13        A.   Yes.  It is mobile, it can be turned.  And in the picture that we

14     saw yesterday, the two clearer ones, these two dimples were turned this

15     way by some 30 degrees or so.  That can be confirmed by looking at those

16     images again.  Here, in the primer, which is made of brass, I believe,

17     I see a mark left by a pointed object.  Here in this central circle,

18     there is the primer or the detonator.  And if we draw a line downward,

19     there is a marking of a sharp --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you've answered the question already.  I

21     don't know whether this was what you were intending to elicit from the

22     witness, Ms. Harbour.

23             MS. HARBOUR:  This wasn't.  I didn't stop the witness because it

24     actually relates to the next question I have for him, but I'll ask that

25     now.

Page 15919

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MS. HARBOUR:

 3        Q.   And Dr. Turkusic please bear in mind and given the limited time

 4     that you should keep your answers to what I ask.

 5             Can you tell from looking at that whether the mortar has been

 6     fired?

 7        A.   Judging by the aspect of the detonator and the imprint in the

 8     centre, I can tell that the explosive has been activated.  If there had

 9     been no dent, if there were no dent, I would be able to tell that it did

10     not explode.  The detonator contains the primer, which then activates the

11     charge.

12        Q.   Now, while you still have this object, I would like to bring up

13     the two stills from the video that the Defence showed you yesterday.

14             MS. HARBOUR:  And these are from Exhibit D352 MFI and the time

15     codes of the stills are 52:44 and 53:03.  The stills are at 65 ter 30257.

16     Your Honours, I apologise.  These haven't yet been uploaded into e-court

17     but they will be momentarily, and in the meantime if I could ask

18     Ms. Stewart to bring up the image on Sanction.

19        Q.   Dr. Turkusic, please only answer this question, if you can.  Can

20     you tell whether the stabiliser that is shown in these photos is the same

21     stabiliser?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for clarity, Madam Harbour, when you say same

23     stabiliser, do you mean are 12 and 13 one and the same thing or are you

24     saying are 12 and 13 similar to what he has in his hand?

25             MS. HARBOUR:  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Page 15920

 1        Q.   What I mean, Dr. Turkusic, is can you tell whether 12 and 13 are

 2     the same stabiliser?  Please for now only focus on the photographs and

 3     not on the stabiliser in your hand.

 4        A.   I must say by way of introduction that these two photographs were

 5     taken from different angles.  It seems to me that in the left-hand

 6     photograph, it can be seen more clearly that this part of the stabiliser

 7     differs from the temperature of melting iron.  It hangs down here.  And

 8     that cannot be seen on the right-hand side because these parts of molten

 9     steel have parts that protrude downward.

10        Q.   I would just like to make it clear for the record that when

11     you're pointing to a part of the stabiliser, you're pointing to the far

12     end of the stabiliser on the opposite side from the fins.

13             Please continue.

14        A.   That is correct.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we understand the short answer to be you can't

16     tell whether they are the same thing?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that this is the

18     same object.

19             MS. HARBOUR:

20        Q.   And again, only if you can, please only answer this question if

21     you can.  Can you tell if the object in your hand is the same as either

22     of the ones depicted in the photos?  And please only answer this if you

23     can.

24        A.   It looks very much like these.  But holding this stabiliser in my

25     hand and looking at these two images at the same time, I'm inclined to

Page 15921

 1     say that there is a difference, because in the pictures, these two

 2     stabilisers that we see, one of the fins, both on the left and on the

 3     right, closest to the ground, is some distance away from these flattened

 4     fins, which I cannot observe on the part I hold in my hand.  The fin that

 5     is most clearly seen, that is next to the tarmac, is at a distance from

 6     the two fins above that are flattened but they are very near each other,

 7     and I cannot observe this detail looking at this stabiliser I'm holding

 8     in my hand.

 9             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours this concludes my questions about the

10     stabiliser.  In light of Dr. Turkusic's answers, perhaps the Chamber and

11     the Defence would like to inspect the stabiliser.  In the meantime

12     I would like to tender it into evidence.

13             I understand that for administrative reasons, since the artefact

14     is in evidence in the Karadzic case as P1454, the Registry cannot also

15     mark it as evidence in our case.  Thus we have uploaded photos of the

16     object -- in view of the physical object as 65 ter 22925, and although

17     normally the Chamber does not consider items that are not in evidence in

18     its deliberations, I would request a ruling that in light of these

19     exceptional administrative, purely administrative circumstances, that the

20     Chamber would consider this physical object as if it were evidence and

21     that it is in the Registry's possession and available for inspection at

22     any time.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the latter part of the request of

24     Ms. Harbour, that it is evidence, although only photographs will be in

25     our file, but the object still will be available for inspection at any

Page 15922

 1     time.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We have no problem.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No problem with that.  Then the Chamber will

 4     consider whether it agrees or disagrees with that an object cannot be in

 5     evidence in two cases.  So therefore, we will ask Mr. Registrar to assign

 6     a number which certainly does -- is linked to the photographs, but

 7     whether it also is linked to the object itself, we'll think about that.

 8             Mr. Registrar.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Only one question before.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Which, if we can be guided, which of these -- from

12     which this photo corresponds to from the stabilisers from our exhibit,

13     1D1224?  If the Prosecution can tell us.

14             MS. HARBOUR:  Sorry, I don't understand your question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at the exhibit Mr. Lukic is

16     referring to?

17             MR. LUKIC:  1D1224.  If you remember those four pictures of

18     stabilisers with red dots, without red dots.  Is it left or the right

19     one, if they can be precise.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at it again?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, they only can determine that if they

22     are of the view that they are different, that they depict different

23     objects, which is not clear until now.  This is --

24             MR. LUKIC:  If they cannot, that's fine.  If they can say that's

25     the same with the both that's fine.

Page 15923

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If they can just guide us what they claim.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             MS. HARBOUR:  Our position is that these are the same stabilisers

 5     and that the object, the artefact that we've tendered, is the same as

 6     both of these.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What I understand from what we see on our screen now

 8     is that the photographs to the right -- one second, please.  That the

 9     photographs to the right, L2 above and L2 down, are pictures taken of the

10     artefact which is in the possession of the Prosecution.  And that the

11     left photographs are photographs taken by the investigators at the time

12     of the event.  Therefore, I do understand that the pictures which are

13     presented now by the Prosecution as replacing more or less the artefact

14     itself are pictures of the artefact which is in the possession of the

15     Prosecution and therefore certainly is the same as L2 above and L2 down,

16     and that it's the Prosecution's position that it's also the same as the

17     two L1s on this exhibit.  Is that a correct understanding?  And that

18     whether it's the same or not, that is in dispute.

19             MS. HARBOUR:  That is absolutely correct, Your Honour.  And in

20     addition, just for clarity, it is also our position that on the stills we

21     presented as 65 ter 30257, the two photos depict the same stabiliser and

22     that is also one and the same as the artefact we tendered.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the position of the Prosecution.

24             Mr. Lukic, is everything clear?

25             Then the photographs of the artefact replacing the artefact

Page 15924

 1     itself or perhaps the artefact being covered by the exhibit number,

 2     Mr. Registrar, would be what number?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P3053 [sic], Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is admitted into evidence.  The Chamber

 5     will consider whether it includes the artefact itself.

 6             Mr. Lukic, would you like to inspect the --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think that I'm qualified enough.

 8     Dr. Turkusic confirmed that that part is moving.  That's all we can

 9     inspect and it was already confirmed.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber would like to inspect the

11     artefact, and if possible, would like to have the previous picture, that

12     is the stills, on the screen when we inspect the --

13             MS. HARBOUR:  I've been informed that it has now been uploaded in

14     e-court, 65 ter 30257.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, P1353 seems to be a bit of a low

16     number for this case for the photographs of the artefact.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that is Exhibit P2053.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  2053.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  And the 65 ter number is 22925.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has inspected [Microphone not

23     activated] --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry.  The Chamber puts hereby on the record

Page 15925

 1     that we have inspected the artefact in some detail and have compared it

 2     with the photographs, the stills, from the video showing number 12 and

 3     13, time on the stills 12.55 and 13.00.

 4             Ms. Harbour.

 5             MS. HARBOUR:

 6        Q.   I'll turn to my second topic now, Dr. Turkusic.  You've been

 7     asked many questions about a sketch that was included in the

 8     Simon Bolivar incident investigation file.  And you testified at

 9     transcripts page 15808 and 15843 that you did not create this sketch.

10     Now, I would like us to look at the cover page and the legend that

11     accompanied this sketch.

12             MS. HARBOUR:  So if we could please have Exhibit P2043 and page

13     14 in the B/C/S and the English.

14        Q.   This cover bears the name of Miralem Sarvan and this is the cover

15     for the drawing of the scene which is the sketch that you were asked

16     about.  In the CSB report for this incident, which is in evidence as

17     P2017, this individual, Miralem Sarvan is listed as the criminal

18     technician for CSB Sarajevo who was present for this investigation.  In

19     your experience, were the criminal technicians who gathered evidence and

20     took photos at an investigation site, were they responsible for

21     determining the direction of fire?

22        A.   I don't think so, because their job during the war in numerous

23     cases was not to establish the direction of fire.  In this instance it

24     was our duty to establish the direction of fire and to measure all the

25     elements required for that determination.  So our team, and I was part of

Page 15926

 1     that team, independently of the sketch and the details contained there,

 2     we did our own measurements of the height of the building, the distance

 3     of the impact horizontally and vertically, and we calculated all the

 4     angles regardless of what the sketch says.

 5        Q.   Just for clarity, since you've referenced the height of the

 6     building, here we are talking about the Simon Bolivar school shelling in

 7     Dobrinja, not about Markale 2.  I just want to make sure that you

 8     understand that that was the question.  And really my question was

 9     limited to whether or not criminal technicians are involved in

10     determining direction of fire.

11        A.   The establishing of direction of fire was established by the KDZ,

12     of which I was a member.  That was our task.  Criminal investigation

13     technicians did other things, made sketches, marked trace evidence found

14     on the ground and at the scene, but they did not get themselves involved

15     in determining direction of fire because the final report on the

16     direction of fire came from our source.

17             MS. HARBOUR:  If we could now turn to the next page of this

18     document, which is the legend for the sketch.

19        Q.   Now, Dr. Turkusic, please keep your answer very closely only to

20     what I ask of you.  Does this legend indicate that the sketch contains a

21     marking for the azimuth?

22        A.   Azimuth is not mentioned here at all, and there is no indication

23     of it, no marking of it, in the legend that we can see.

24        Q.   If a crime scene technician in his sketch mislabels the direction

25     north on his crime scene sketch, would this impact the KDZ team's

Page 15927

 1     determination of the direction of fire?

 2        A.   Not at all.  Independently of any markings in the sketch and the

 3     legend which we are looking at, independently of all these data and

 4     facts, we established our own data and facts as a team and by applying

 5     the procedure I ascribed yesterday.  If you have more people acting

 6     independently, you can make more comparisons in order to avoid errors.

 7             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours, this concludes my redirect for this

 8     witness, although I do have some documentary issues to bring up, but that

 9     doesn't need to be done with the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's not to be done with the witness, we'll

11     postpone that.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question.

14             Witness, we have looked at two tail-fins, one with a 12 next to

15     it, the other with a 13.  You said you can't confirm that these are the

16     same.  We also saw that nowhere in the report a second tail-fin is

17     mentioned.  Do you have any explanation for a tail-fin with number 12 to

18     it which at least looks very much the same as a tail-fin with number 13,

19     where no two tail fins are described?  Do you have any explanation for

20     the -- for that part of the report which is somewhat confusing perhaps?

21        A.   I'm confused as well, Your Honours.  This part of the job, i.e.

22     the marking with numbers, the details that were later photographed and

23     numbers attached to them, had been done before our arrival.  In addition

24     to that, we were not interested in that aspect of job.  I don't know what

25     kind of error took place here.  In order to confirm whether these two

Page 15928

 1     stabilisers are identical or not, I am still at a loss because if you

 2     take photographs from different angles and different distances, this

 3     considerably changes the whole picture.  It substantially changes the

 4     reality that a photograph is purporting to portray.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One follow-up question on that.  What was the

 7     rule during that time?  If the photographer takes pictures from different

 8     angles, remain the number put next to such an object the same or it would

 9     be the number changed for the next photograph on the same object but from

10     a different angle?  I'm referring to number 12 and 13.  But in general

11     terms, can you help me with that?

12        A.   No, I cannot because I don't know.  This process of marking and

13     photographing and possibly changing the numbers for different angles is

14     something that I'm not familiar with; therefore, I can only speculate and

15     this is not consistent with the way I am giving evidence.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that answer.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, have the questions in re-examination and

18     the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further questions?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Just two or three short ones.

20                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Turkusic, here I am again but I'm not going

22     to bother you for too long.  I know you're keen to go home.  This part

23     that you just saw that is revolving or rotating, is it true that, in

24     fact, during the assembly it is glued by a very strong glue that cannot

25     be affected by any explosion so as a result all these parts remain firmly

Page 15929

 1     fixed even after the detonation?

 2        A.   I believe that the special key is used during assembly that these

 3     parts are tightly screwed, and I think it's impossible to unscrew it

 4     during detonation.  It can only be torn into parts, but the rotation

 5     force cannot remove these parts.

 6        Q.   Just briefly, relating to the Simon Bolivar sketch, as a matter

 7     of practice, are you using the sketches and the material provided by your

 8     colleagues who were at the scene?  I'm talking about other cases.  Did

 9     you rely on their documentation?

10        A.   Well, on a case-by-case basis.  If a CSB provides something and

11     seeks our opinion and analysis, they precisely list the materials

12     provided by them and on the basis of that we give our opinion on every

13     item contained in their request.  I don't recall that that was exactly a

14     common practice for them to send sketches.  Rather, they asked us to come

15     to the scene and determine the determination, or if not, we just wanted

16     our opinion about the material that they provided us with.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Doctor.  I have no further

18     questions for you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Further Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one additional question.  You did not fully

22     answer Mr. Lukic's question.  Is this central detonation part in the fin,

23     is that glued or is it just screwed in?  You can see we saw that you can

24     easily screw entirely out.  Is it glued in any way, to your knowledge?

25        A.   I believe that it's just screwed.  If you can unscrew it with the

Page 15930

 1     hand, that means --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the last part of

 3     his answer?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You started saying and the interpreters couldn't

 5     follow you.  You said if you can unscrew it with the hand, that means,

 6     and could you resume from there?

 7        A.   If now one can rotate it with the hand, I believe that it has

 8     been loosened by some kind of key after being found, because never before

 9     had I an opportunity, and we inspected a lot of stabilisers, to rotate

10     this part that we were able to do here in terms of screwing or

11     unscrewing.  So before assembly, this part had been tightly screwed in

12     and there is no force directed in such a manner that, during a

13     detonation, it can be unscrewed in terms of rotation.  The middle part

14     where the detonator is, this part is inserted by pressing it into the

15     central part, and you need to use a force to press it into it and

16     therefore place it firmly in that location, and I'm talking about the

17     detonator.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Turkusic, this then concludes your

21     examination.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

22     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

23     and put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  Fiat

25     justicia et pereat mundus.

Page 15931

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness

 4     who will testify in closed session and with pseudonym?  But perhaps we

 5     first deal with administrative matters.

 6             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes to both, please, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The administrative matters first.

 8             MS. HARBOUR:  We've reviewed the video that was MFI'd yesterday

 9     as D352, and we've determined that this video was provided to the

10     Prosecution by Witness RM105.  In the clip that the Defence played it is

11     clear from the time stamp that five minutes of video are missing between

12     the moment that the stabiliser is shown in one place with placard 12 and

13     the moment that it is shown in another place with placard 13, and that is

14     as we received it from the witness.  We do not have any footage to

15     account for these five minutes.

16             We've agreed with the Defence that the entire 13 minute clip of

17     the Markale 2 investigation should be provided to Your Honours in order

18     to provide as much context as possible for this video, and for your

19     information, in the clip a UN team is visible measuring the stabiliser in

20     a location different from where it was originally found during the

21     investigation, and a second videographer filming this measuring is

22     visible.  And we would direct Your Honour's attention to Exhibit P446,

23     already in evidence, at time stamp beginning 606, where the footage of

24     this second videographer of the UN team measuring the stabiliser is

25     visible.

Page 15932

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I have to object now, this is closing argument.  It's

 2     not something we need for admission of the evidence.

 3             MS. HARBOUR:  I was simply attempting to provide some context for

 4     the Chamber but I will defer to Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what you are doing, you are stressing the

 6     importance of certain elements of that evidence, whereas at this moment,

 7     the primary thing to do is to decide on admission.

 8             Mr. Lukic, any -- are we having new -- or are you now referring

 9     to what we should look at?  Because let's see --

10             MS. HARBOUR:  The Defence had agreed with us that 13 minutes of

11     the video --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we agreed, and there is no need for any further

13     explanation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, perhaps --

15             MR. LUKIC:  We agreed to have it [overlapping speakers] --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but not at this moment.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's the difference.

19             MS. HARBOUR:  And that the surrogate sheet for that 13 minute

20     clip to be tendered as Exhibit D352 has been uploaded as 65 ter 30256.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, for the whole of the 13 minute clip

22     the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D2054.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D2054 is admitted.  D20- or P2054?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  I mean P2054, Your Honours.

Page 15933

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P2054.

 2             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours, with all due respect this was marked

 3     for identification as D352 pending an agreement between the Prosecution

 4     and Defence, so I would request that --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore D352 is ready to be admitted into evidence

 6     because both parties agree on it.  And the other number, Mr. Registrar,

 7     you just mentioned can be vacated.  It's -- so there is -- where the

 8     transcript reads D2054 but where it was supposed to be P2054, both

 9     numbers are free at this moment.

10             And we have now decided on the 13 minute clip which is now

11     admitted into evidence.

12             There was another matter, I think, Ms. Harbour, about the total

13     investigation of some -- I'm having some difficulties in finding it at

14     this very moment, but --

15             MS. HARBOUR:  The Simon Bolivar incident.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honours admitted the entire file, a

18     replaced --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We have done so.

20             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, yesterday.  There are several other matters

21     that I need --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, take them one by one.

23             MS. HARBOUR:  The witness's statement, which is P2009, was marked

24     for identification but has not yet been admitted, so I would tender it at

25     this time.

Page 15934

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any further [overlapping speakers] --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We have the same objections as before, that it is

 3     more expert testimony, and we maintain same objections as we had in our

 4     filing.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  On the record it's not

 7     clear what P number you mentioned.  P2009.  It is hereby admitted into

 8     evidence.

 9             MS. HARBOUR:  And just two brief items during the course of this

10     witness's statement the Chamber requested that we agree with the Defence

11     on several matters.  One at transcript page 15834, you requested that we

12     agree on the location of Safeta Zajke street number 43 in reference to

13     the Defence map admitted as D348.  We haven't had the opportunity to

14     discuss it but we did upload as 65 ter 13157 a map where we indicate at

15     point 11 the location, and it is consistent with what Mr. Lukic described

16     to the witness during the testimony.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what you uploaded as 65 ter 13157, would

18     you like to have that admitted into evidence?

19             MS. HARBOUR:  We uploaded it simply for reference so that the

20     Defence could note where we contend that this address is.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you agree?  Because for the Chamber then to

22     adopt that, we would need a document which --

23             MR. LUKIC:  We cannot agree because I don't know.

24             MS. HARBOUR:  We did send an e-mail to the Defence yesterday

25     morning with this information.

Page 15935

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you tendering it?

 2             MS. HARBOUR:  If Your Honours would like --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We would like to see it first.

 4             MS. HARBOUR:  -- I'm happy to tender it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to see it first.  Could we have it on

 6     the screen?

 7             MS. HARBOUR:  It's point number 11.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you tender this, Ms. Harbour, may I take it

 9     that we are supposed not to rely on any other things like 6 or 12 or 15?

10     It's just 11 where the Prosecution claims the street you mentioned is.

11             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can that be zoomed in on number 11?  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Actually I'm sorry, I thought it's something

14     different.  I can agree on this because I had marked on my map at the

15     same spot where we can find this green dot.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So the green dot, 11, reflects a joint view

17     of the parties on where the incident -- and again you had the name

18     Ms. Harbour.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Safeta Zajke.

20             MS. HARBOUR:  Number 43.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Safeta Zajke, that it's -- first of all, the map

22     gives the name of that street but the green spot indicates, in the shared

23     view of the parties, the location where the incident took place.

24             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2054, Your Honours.

Page 15936

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P2054 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MS. HARBOUR:  And finally, at transcript page 15826, the Chamber

 3     requested the parties to agree on -- this is in relation to the

 4     Simon Bolivar school incident, to agree on where in photograph number 2

 5     was the wall that is depicted in photograph number 3.  And these two

 6     photographs are in P2043, pages 20 and 21.  The Defence would prefer to

 7     consult their expert before agreeing.  However, in our submission, it is

 8     clear from the placement of the water pump and the buckets arranged

 9     around the water pump --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we could have them on the screen for a while

11     so that we are able to follow.  Could we have them enlarged?

12             MS. HARBOUR:  If we could also have page 21?  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have seen this now.  Mr. Lukic read into

14     the record the text, and I think it referred to the other photograph.  We

15     will now -- could you please read that again?  Yes.  We see photograph 3

16     has a water pipe vertically approximately in the middle of the light part

17     of the photograph.

18             Ms. Harbour, is that where we have to focus on?

19             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.  And the buckets arranged

20     around the water pump.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Buckets arranged around the water pump.  I must

22     admit I have to enlarge it to see it properly.

23             MS. HARBOUR:  If we could perhaps have the bottom photo on the

24     left enlarged?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There we -- yes.  I now better see the buckets.

Page 15937

 1     Yes.  And could I have now a look again at the next one, number 3?  Let

 2     me see.  Yes, yes.  Perhaps together as we had them a second ago.

 3             MS. HARBOUR:  The Prosecution's submission is that the wall from

 4     photograph 3 would be to the far right and barely visible in photograph

 5     2, based on the arrangement of the water pump and the buckets.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll give it -- one second.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We might need to give it another look.  It is in

 9     evidence and at least it's clear what the position of the Prosecution is

10     in this respect.

11             Mr. Lukic?

12             MR. LUKIC:  I cannot deny nor confirm.  I have to consult with

13     somebody.  I really cannot.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll hear from you later whether there

15     is agreement on it, "yes" or "no."  That was the last administrative

16     matter you wanted to raise?

17             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we are working on a bit of a different schedule,

19     that is one hour and a half, and then the last portion usually is a short

20     one.  I wonder whether we could take the break now but before doing so,

21     Mr. Lukic, you're on your feet.

22             MR. LUKIC:  If we can finish with the administrative matters in

23     connection with this witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  First of all, we would -- the Prosecution offered

Page 15938

 1     today 65 ter 30257, and those are stills of two tail fins.  We would

 2     offer them into the evidence under a P number as we received that video

 3     under our D number.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the one at time 1255 as shown on the still --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  And 13.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and the other one 1300.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, so it's -- because the witness explained the

 8     photos, we should see them to be able to understand his testimony.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think they were shown in -- they had not yet

10     been uploaded and that was the reason why they were shown in Sanction,

11     I think.

12             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes, Your Honours.  And now they are uploaded.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Under number?

14             MS. HARBOUR:  6530257, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And we would like to have that in evidence.

16             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2055, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P2055 is admitted into evidence.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  And I also forgot yesterday to offer the

21     documents we discussed with the witness into the evidence, so I would

22     like to do it now.  First of all, 1D1198.  If you want it can be called

23     on the screen.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you perhaps briefly describe it.

25             MR. LUKIC:  It's an ABiH Army General Staff of armed forces

Page 15939

 1     number 3 production of military equipment during the war.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection, Ms. Harbour?

 3             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours I would like to see this on the

 4     screen.  If this is the one without a translation --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it should be marked for identification.  It is

 6     where the witness testified, commented on that information was not yet

 7     confirmed, I think, but Mr. Lukic then said that that's on a different

 8     portion of the document.  It was production facilities.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And it was intelligence from the Serb army, from the

11     VRS, Mr. Lukic, if you remember well.

12             MR. LUKIC:  This is -- this is -- yeah, this one is from

13     ABH Army.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  ABH, yes.

15             MS. HARBOUR:  It's pending a translation.  If we could --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Then MFI it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But once we have a translation, you have no

18     objection?

19             MS. HARBOUR:  I have no idea what the document says or whether it

20     was put to the witness in the correct way, so we would reserve our

21     position.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Yes.  You reserve that position.

23             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter number 1D1198 will be

25     MFI'd D353.

Page 15940

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we are waiting for a translation.

 2             Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, the next one will be 1D1201.  It's a

 4     Google earth map of Simon Bolivar.

 5             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours, I do object to the admission of this

 6     one.  The witness wasn't able to find anything on it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness indeed said that he.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly, I'm sorry.  I have it marked here but -- too

 9     small letters, I couldn't see it.  Yes, we withdraw this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I take it that the parties could agree on

11     where the Simon Bolivar school is now at least, whatever shape it may

12     have had at the time, but we have approximately the location.  So you're

13     invited to agree on that and this one is not tendered any longer.  It's

14     withdrawn.

15             Any further matter?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  1D1221, it's the document just compiled from

17     the CSB books and when we were -- we discussed with the witness

18     regularity of numbers of documents of KDZ and CSB.  This will be

19     discussed further for sure, and we will need it [overlapping speakers].

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Discussed further by who?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Other witnesses, is that --

22             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it then to have it MFI'd so that we know that

24     this witness --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Discussed this document.

Page 15941

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- discussed it, although we didn't deal with any

 2     detail.  He just said, well, whatever happens.

 3             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours, we would object to admission to this

 4     document through anyone other than the person who prepared it who can

 5     explain what it purports to be.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  That's our ballistic experts who went through the

 7     records, so --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So --

 9             MS. HARBOUR:  So perhaps once the ballistic experts testify it

10     could be tendered through that individual.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be MFI'd at this moment because the witness

12     commented on it.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we need a translation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And we need a translation anyhow.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Then the photo, 1D1224 -- okay, sorry.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be MFI'd awaiting translation, and

18     once translation is there, we still are waiting for further explanation

19     by your experts, Mr. Lukic.

20             The number would be, Mr. Registrar?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 1D1221 will be

22     MFI'd D354.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps the status for the time being.

24             Any other matter?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Next one, 1D1224.

Page 15942

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, I think the -- could you please repeat

 2     the number, Mr. Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D354, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D354.  Mr. Lukic, next one.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Next one is 1D1224, it was a four pictures of

 6     stabilisers.  We discussed it in lengthy.

 7             MS. HARBOUR:  We do object to the admission of this.  Again,

 8     I think -- in our submission, this should be tendered through the

 9     individual who created it and who created the line, so perhaps if we

10     could wait to have it tendered for the Defence expert.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But the matter is so simple, Ms. Harbour, the simple

12     matter is that the position of the inner ring is different in relation to

13     the fins and therefore must have been turned, whether it's the same,

14     whether it's a different one, that is the simple matter the Defence

15     wanted to show through this witness, and even the Chamber by its own

16     observation, if we have it in evidence, can see it.

17             MS. HARBOUR:  Your Honours, that may be how the document was used

18     with this witness, but the photographs are taken at different angles,

19     parts of the stabilisers depicted in one aren't depicted in the other.

20     There is simply a lot of information in this document that couldn't be

21     spoken about by this witness and wasn't put to this witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The document will be MFI'd.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 1D1224 will be

24     MFI D355.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D355 keeps that status for the time being.

Page 15943

 1             Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We proposed one for admission, one rule of mortar,

 3     82-millimetres.  It's a pretty short one and now we have translation as

 4     well.  It was translated pretty swiftly by CLSS, so it's 1D1205.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Harbour?

 6             MS. HARBOUR:  For this, the Prosecution would like to receive the

 7     entire manual for the 82 mortar from the Defence, and if it would be

 8     possible to agree on portions from the manual that could be tendered.  In

 9     addition, the Prosecution has a manual for the 120 mortar, 122-millimetre

10     mortar which perhaps we could also agree on experts to be admitted with

11     the Defence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it 122-millimetre mortar or 120-millimetre?

13             MS. HARBOUR:  120.  Your Honours, I apologise for the lapse in my

14     memory.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  This document will be MFI'd and that the parties are

17     invited to report to the Chamber the result of their further

18     conversations on context.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter 1D1205 will be MFI D356.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps the status for the time being.

21             Any other matter, Mr. Lukic?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, 1D1230 -- 1D1231.  That's the sketch placed on a

23     Sarajevo map with those angles.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MS. HARBOUR:  We object to this one.  The witness wasn't able to

Page 15944

 1     say anything about it.  And if Your Honours recall, this is the one about

 2     which Mr. Lukic appeared to be offering us expert testimony with a little

 3     more said about the document.  So we could object to this, again it would

 4     be best tendered through the Defence expert.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  No, I was asked by Ms. Harbour to explain --

 6             MS. HARBOUR:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- I explained, and the witness was testifying based

 8     on this document.  Whether he confirmed or not, this is the document used

 9     in this trial to cross-examine the witness.  We will discuss it with our

10     experts but now it can be admitted easily.

11             MS. HARBOUR:  The witness said very little about this document.

12     The witness wasn't able to say anything.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. LUKIC:  Before you decide, he confirmed the angle of fire on

15     this one although today maybe he testified differently.

16             MS. HARBOUR:  If I could please have a transcript reference for

17     that, Mr. Lukic?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Now?

19             MS. HARBOUR:  If --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'll give it to you later.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll MFI it until this has been

22     resolved and then we can continue the discussion on admission on from

23     then or whether it remains MFI'd.

24             Mr. Registrar, the number --

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

Page 15945

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- number under which it will be marked for

 2     identification is?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be MFI D357, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

 5             Mr. Lukic, anything else?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  And we only owe you to replace with -- as

 7     I understood it, with the correct drawing of angle of 160 degrees, on

 8     351, D351, but now it's part of P498, page 23.  I would just ask to get

 9     some clear guidance how to do this, if it's not part of --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at it to start with.  These are

11     [overlapping speakers] --

12             MR. LUKIC:  P498 should be page 23.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But D351 was already admitted.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is the marked one.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Only by [overlapping speakers] --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Marked by the witness.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Honourable Judge Orie told me that I should have a

19     precise drawing done by somebody probably.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, that.  Yes, now I do remember that.  You have

21     uploaded the precise 160?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Not yet.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Not yet.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Because it has to be done by somebody who can do

25     precise drawing.

Page 15946

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is -- this is what the witness did.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And I would say everyone can on a spare Saturday

 4     afternoon, add, if he likes, the proper 160 degree --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I can have it on Saturday, this Saturday.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You have a spare Saturday afternoon, Mr. Lukic, I do

 7     understand, which I hope you'll enjoy.  Let's -- yes, you'll understand

 8     what my problem is and it is --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Only now it's P.  Now it's P498.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this as marked or is this unmarked by the

11     witness?

12             MR. LUKIC:  This is the --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The P number is unmarked.  The marked number is

14     D351.

15             MR. LUKIC:  So we just replace D351.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we can keep it and you add.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Add.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You add one where you have -- with the precision of

20     Saturday afternoon have drawn that 160 [overlapping speakers] --

21             MR. LUKIC:  That was all we had, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's all what you had.

23             Ms. Harbour, nothing on your part?

24             MS. HARBOUR:  This doesn't give rise to any new issues.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Weber?

Page 15947

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution does have a number of

 2     other matters that we can deal with throughout the course of the day

 3     whenever it's most convenient for the Chamber.  I can start on some now

 4     if you like or --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I suggest that if you can do one or two in

 6     three minutes, then we start with that, and then take from 11.00 to 11.30

 7     the break if that's possible.  And please start with the urgent ones.

 8             MR. WEBER:  With -- the most urgent one is at this time the

 9     Prosecution requests a short extension of time with respect to the --

10     sorry, I'm just going to the most urgent one -- Prosecution is seeking a

11     one-week extension to file its 92 quater motions for Milan Babic and

12     RM251.  We're --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down, thank you very much, and

14     please repeat from the beginning.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.  The Prosecution is seeking an extension

16     of one week to file its 92 quater motions for Milan Babic and RM251.

17     Right now we are in the process of further reducing and focusing --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Slowing down means slowing down, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Judge.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Not repeating at the same speed.

21             MR. WEBER:  We're in the process of reducing the volume of the

22     materials and further focusing our submissions, and we believe that with

23     the additional week we will be able to submit improved submissions than

24     if we were to submit them today, so we are respectfully requesting a one

25     week extension.

Page 15948

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any position on that?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We never object to this requests for extension of

 3     time as the Prosecution never objects to our requests.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and if it results in a reduction of the

 5     material the Chamber grants --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sure that Ms. Harbour would object that one also.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- okay.

 8             The leave is granted, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way there is one other urgent matter that is

11     the request for reinstatement of the protective measures for the next

12     witness to appear, which is Witness RM021.  The Chamber has considered

13     it.  The Chamber has also considered that there is no objection from the

14     Defence.  And I think I alluded already earlier to the decision of the

15     Chamber; that is, that the protective measures which were applied earlier

16     and then rescinded, that is closed session and pseudonym, are reinstated.

17             Mr. Weber, unless there is a very urgent matter, it's 11.00.

18             MR. WEBER:  We just have to address one other witness and we can

19     actually do that in closed session, if you would like, after the break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will then do it after the break.  We take a

21     break and we will resume at 11.30.

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, there were a few matters, I would rather

25     not lose too much time with the witness but if you can deal with them.

Page 15949

 1             MR. WEBER:  I'll be quick but speak slowly.

 2             There are two matters the Prosecution has regarding the

 3     Prosecution's Rule 92 bis notice for Mr. Ewan Brown which was filed this

 4     past Monday.  The first one, the Prosecution would like to put on the

 5     record that the B/C/S translation of Mr. Brown's Manjaca report has been

 6     completed and has been disclosed to the Defence this morning.  (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15950

 1   (redacted)

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 3             Any other matter, Mr. Weber?

 4             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then is the Prosecution ready, Ms. D'Ascoli, to call

 6     its next witness, which is RM021 if I understand you well?

 7             MS. D'ASCOLI:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we move into closed session.

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

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Page 15951











11  Pages 15951-15995 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 15996

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11   (redacted)

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14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This was a shared operation by Defence, Prosecution

16     and Registry.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             I don't think that there is -- Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I see that we have couple more minutes.

21     I just want to inform you, Your Honours, that we put some translations

22     into the system.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC:  It's first for D356 which was MFI'd.  It's rule on

25     mortar 82 millimetres.  It's not full version, only the version we put

Page 15997

 1     into the system.  We agreed with the Prosecution that we will see if they

 2     want to add something into it but maybe we should just connect the

 3     translations so they can follow what's inside already.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we -- it's a first step where other steps

 5     may follow later for D356.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  For the portion used until now, Madam Registrar,

 8     the --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  It has doc ID 1D060637.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And that translation may be attached to D356 and

11     we'll later hear whether any further context is required.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             Yes, before taking any further steps we wait until the parties

14     have met and see what portions are still needed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  And one more document, although I still don't know if

16     it's a separate document or it's part of the larger document now.  It's

17     photo documentation I was reading into the transcript.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Now we have a translation since we sent it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the photo documentation of --

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of the school --

23             MR. LUKIC:  School, yes.  Simon Bolivar.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We now have I think the whole of the -- the whole of

25     the documentation is now uploaded.

Page 15998

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if there is translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Before it was 1D1199.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The question is whether that is now part of a

 5     broader -- and I also do not know whether the entire documentation,

 6     whether that contained already English translations.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm checking Exhibit P2043 right now to

 8     see if it includes the photographs.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And whether it also includes translations.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I can confirm starting on e-court page

11     20 of the original P2043, the photographs are included.  With respect to

12     the translations, there are translations for those photographs that start

13     on the e-court page 19 of the English version of P2043.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that, and could we just look at the

15     following page and see whether the subtitles of the photos -- it seems

16     that they are.  Yes.  It seems that all the subtitles -- there is only

17     one thing I think for photograph 3, that the first part is words

18     illegible.  It's my recollection that you read the whole of the title,

19     Mr. Lukic.  I admire your skills to read the illegible but it is on the

20     record.  Perhaps we could --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Semi-blind people can do that sometimes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the Prosecution could look at whether the

23     illegible parts can -- are now legible or at least read by Mr. Lukic.

24             Anything else, Mr. Lukic?

25             Yes, that's -- therefore is no need to change anything because

Page 15999

 1     it's now in evidence.

 2             Anything else, Mr. Lukic?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I can tell you that I can read this easily again.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So therefore, the English translation should

 5     be checked against the original to see whether the declaration of

 6     illegibility, whether that is a valid one or whether we could have a

 7     better translation.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I have nothing further, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing further.  Prosecution nothing further.

10             We will then adjourn for the day and we'll resume Monday, the 2nd

11     of September, at 9.30 in the morning but in Courtroom I.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of

14                           September, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.