Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17441

 1                           Thursday, 26 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Before we continue, I'd like to put on the record two short

13     matters.

14             First, the Prosecution has made submissions concerning

15     Witness RM070.  One moment, please.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I ask myself whether we had to move into private

18     session but I don't think there's any need for that.

19             There were some issues raised on the 23rd of September, in

20     relation to this witness.  For the clarity of the record, the Chamber

21     allows the Prosecution to proceed as suggested.  That is, mainly in

22     relation to the three issues that needed an answer.

23             The fourth one has been resolved, meanwhile, by agreement among

24     the parties.

25             Then the second issue I'd like to briefly deal with is ... that

Page 17442

 1     we are still waiting for the result of the discussions the parties have

 2     had in relation to P15, which is MFI'd for the time being, and the

 3     Chamber would like to receive an update, still, this week.

 4             These two matters having ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to add, P15, there was an issue about the

 7     translation of that document -- English translation.

 8             Having dealt with those matters, we turn into closed session in

 9     order to hear the remainder of the testimony of the present witness.

10             Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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Page 17443











11  Pages 17443-17486 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 17487

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             We take a break, and we'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity for -- to deal with some

16     associated exhibits related to the testimony of Witness John Clark.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             In relation to Witness John Clark, the Chamber notes that the

19     Registrar has provisionally Exhibit Numbers P2338 to P2360 to the

20     23 associated exhibits which are currently marked for identification.

21     The Chamber observes that 20 of these exhibits are photographs, one is a

22     chart depicting disturbed and undisturbed Srebrenica primary graves,

23     highlighting those worked on by the witness, and one is a table listing

24     the different nationalities represented in the forensic teams in

25     Srebrenica.  The remaining exhibit is an autopsy report.

Page 17488

 1             Given the content of these associated exhibits, the Chamber

 2     considers it appropriate to admit them despite their relatively large

 3     number.  Exhibits P2338 to P2360 are hereby admitted into evidence.

 4             Good afternoon, Mr. Hogan.  Apologies for continuing with other

 5     business when you entered the courtroom.

 6             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

 7     solemn declaration.  May I invite to make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 9     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  BARRY HOGAN

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hogan.  Please be seated.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  There were two things that I wanted to note

15     before the witness entered the room, which I'll do at the beginning of

16     the next session as he is being brought in, but I would also just like to

17     note for the Chamber that he has been provided a copy, which he has with

18     him, of the map book that is it now in evidence as P3.  I hope that is

19     acceptable.  The book is in its original form except that it has also

20     been marked with the corresponding e-court pages on each page.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections for that.  Whom do I have to

22     address?  Mr. Lukic, no problems.

23             Mr. Hogan, you will first be examined by Ms. Hochhauser.  You'll

24     find her to your right.  And Ms. Hochhauser is counsel for the

25     Prosecution.

Page 17489

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3                           Examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

 4        Q.   Good afternoon.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Can you please put your full name on the record?

 7        A.   Barry Allan Hogan.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hogan, you have testified before in the Dragomir Milosevic

 9     and Karadzic trials; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you have worked on other Sarajevo-related investigations or

12     cases?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Which ones were those?

15        A.   The Stanislav Galic trial.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what your current assignment at the ICTY is?

17        A.   I'm an OTP investigator currently assigned to the case against

18     Radovan Karadzic.

19        Q.   Now, have you had an opportunity before coming here today to

20     review your prior testimony in the Karadzic trial?

21        A.   Yes, I have.

22        Q.   And did you find it both accurate and truthful?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   And if asked the same questions today, would you give the same

25     answers?  And actually before you answer me, I'm being reminded that you

Page 17490

 1     I both need to pause between question and answer.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And between answer and question.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

 4             THE WITNESS:  And the answer to your question is yes, I would

 5     answer the same way.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, with that, I would tender

 7     65 ter 30304, which is relevant excerpts of investigator Hogan's

 8     testimony in the Karadzic trial as well as the nine exhibit associated to

 9     that testimony.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, first, the transcript.

11             MR. LUKIC:  We do not object to the transcript, but, right now,

12     we don't know which exactly nine exhibits go with this transcript.  We

13     didn't extract it that way.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then start with the transcript.  The

15     transcript would receive, Madam Registrar, number?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 30304 will be P2380.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             Associated exhibits, Ms. Hochhauser, could you assist Mr. Lukic.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, I can.  The first is 65 ter 10441, which

20     is -- the satellite photo of Trebevic is the description.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would the next be 12936?  Then 19792.  Or --

22     I'm --

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- just consulting the list we received.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honours.  It is the -- as they're

Page 17491

 1     listed on the list.  The only -- the only thing that I would note is, for

 2     example, 19792 is shaded in grey because what we're offering is a subset

 3     that's listed under 19792A.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other change to the list of associated exhibits?

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  As -- as sent around earlier this mourning with

 6     a revised description, assuming that's the one that the Chamber has in

 7     its possession --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I can't promise you that I have this morning's

 9     version.  But the numbers are still the numbers although the description

10     has been changed?

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we go through them one by one.

13             MR. LUKIC:  No, we don't -- we do not have to.  We do not have

14     any objections to none of these.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that Madam Registrar prepares a list

16     on which all the numbers appear and then now with the new descriptions

17     and provisionally assign numbers to them.  We would then need nine

18     numbers to be reserved, and we'll decide on admission and we'll admit

19     them once we have received those numbers.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Thank you.  I don't believe that I need to relay

22     a detailed public summary of Mr. Hogan's evidence but I can just say that

23     Mr. Hogan is an OTP investigator with knowledge of Sarajevo and the

24     Sarajevo-related charged crimes in the indictment.  And then if I may

25     proceed to questioning?

Page 17492

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And his testimony deals with that experience.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, if I could at this point just make

 5     a quick clarification to the record.  The number assigned to 30304 would

 6     be P2379 as the next exhibit number.  So P2380 can be used for the other

 7     associated exhibits.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then P2380 to the extent was ... or at

 9     least is admitted into evidence, that's the ... one second, please.  I'm

10     apparently making mistakes.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I didn't listen carefully enough.  The

13     excerpts of transcripts admitted are admitted under P2379 and not as

14     earlier indicated, P2380.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

17        Q.   Investigator Hogan, can you please tell us just briefly the

18     source of your familiarity with Sarajevo and its environs.

19        A.   I've performed dozens of missions or trips to Sarajevo in

20     furtherance of the various cases that I've worked on, starting in early

21     1999 for the OTP and, prior to that, I had served as a short term of duty

22     with UNPROFOR in Sarajevo in the summer of 1992.

23             With the OTP, I conducted investigations for the Galic case and

24     for the Dragomir Milosevic case, assisted with Perisic case and now with

25     the Karadzic case.

Page 17493

 1        Q.   And are you familiar with the allegations of the specific

 2     incidents that are charged in the F and G schedules of the Mladic

 3     indictment?

 4        A.   Yes, I am.

 5        Q.   Now you describe in your prior testimony - now in evidence as

 6     Exhibit P2379 at e-court pages 7 through 12 - that you along with

 7     colleagues from the ICTY attended the locations of the

 8     Scheduled Incidents in the Karadzic case, took GPS readings, recorded

 9     video footage and took photographs which were turned into 360-degree

10     photographs.  Are those the same incident locations as charged in the

11     Mladic indictment?

12        A.   Yes, they are.

13        Q.   Now, can you tell the Chamber, please, when those videos and

14     photographs were taken?

15        A.   The -- for the incidents which occurred between May of 1992 and

16     August of 1994, those incidents were filmed and photographed in

17     September 2001.

18             For the incidents which occurred after August 1994, up until the

19     Dayton Accord in November 1995, those incidents were filmed in June of

20     2006.

21        Q.   And specifically as to the videos that you made with --

22     pertaining to charged scheduled -- excuse me, pertaining to charged

23     incidents, can you tell us what the procedure was you engaged in making

24     those videos with either the victim or witness of that incident?

25        A.   Yes.  The -- first of all, the purpose of the videos was to

Page 17494

 1     quicken or shorten the viva voce testimony of the witness in either the

 2     Galic case or the Dragomir Milosevic case.  The trial team worked out a

 3     procedure with me that we would request the witness or the victim to meet

 4     us at a location close to where the incident was known to have occurred.

 5     I was not to coach the witness.  I was not to -- or victim.  I was not to

 6     rehearse the witness or victim but was only asked to -- was only to ask

 7     the witness or victim to show me certain things and not speak on camera.

 8     The purpose of these videos was not to -- was not to replace their

 9     testimony.  It was to provide a visual aid to the participants of those

10     trials to assist in understanding the witness's testimony.

11        Q.   Now, during the -- during those videos, you also took GPS,

12     readings which have been tendered as associated Exhibit 12936, and I'm

13     going to ask you, have you had an opportunity to review the Sarajevo map

14     book in evidence as P3?

15        A.   Yes, I have.

16        Q.   And were your GPS co-ordinates used in the marking of the

17     specific incidents on the maps in Exhibit P3, specifically at e-court

18     pages 6, 8, 9, 11, 15, 17, 19, 23, 27, 32, 33, 36, 37, and 41, which are

19     the close-ups of the grid maps with a dot indicating the incident

20     location?

21        A.   Yes, I believe my GPS readings were used to create those

22     markings.

23        Q.   Okay.  And those GPS readings, to be clear, are based on the

24     witness statement to you of where the location was?

25        A.   Not so much a statement but a demonstration to me, yes.

Page 17495

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, can you explain the purpose of the 360-degree

 2     photographs that were taken and the methodology used when they were

 3     taken?

 4        A.   The staff photographer who accompanied me during the filming

 5     placed a tripod for his camera on the spot where the witness or victim

 6     indicated he or she had been standing at the time of the incident.

 7             There was a device on top of the tripod which enabled the camera

 8     to make an arc of, I'm guessing, 5 degrees at a time, until a complete

 9     circle had been made with digital photographs taken at each stop along

10     this 360-degree arc.

11             The -- the purpose of these 360-degree photographs was to orient

12     the parties to where within the city this incident had taken place and to

13     provide a line of sight or a visual presentation of what it was at the

14     time that we did these filmings.

15        Q.   Now, you said that the -- that the camera was set up on the spot

16     where the witness or victim indicated he or she had been standing.

17             To be clear, in the case of a witness, did they -- were at the

18     standing where the witness was standing or where, to the best of their

19     approximation, the victim was standing?

20        A.   Yes, I was not clear.  Sorry.  It was -- is where the victim was

21     standing or was situated at the time of the incident.

22        Q.   Now, have you had the opportunity to review those 360-degree

23     videos in regard to -- to Scheduled Incidents F1, 4, 9, 12, 13, and 16?

24        A.   Yes, I have.

25        Q.   And do those accurately depict a 360-degree view from the vantage

Page 17496

 1     point of where it was indicated to you the victim was standing?

 2        A.   Yes, they do.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now, at this point, Your Honours, I would like

 4     to tender 65 ter 00945C, which is the video -- the 360-degree video

 5     pertaining to incident F1.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 7             May I take it that it's the assembled photographs, rather than a

 8     video?

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, it's a 360-degree panorama that --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which is not a video in itself because the

11     picture doesn't move but the photographs are assembled and then you're

12     able to look at them from every angle.

13             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Are we going to see it today in the courtroom or not?

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  We are going to see at least one or two of them

17     in the courtroom.  But not every single one of them is my intention.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  What about this one?  Are we going to see this one or

20     not?

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Not unless you decide to show it to the witness

22     or the Judges would like me to show it to the witness.

23             MR. LUKIC:  But that's exactly what I'm trying to raise.  Why

24     would I spend my time allocated to our cross-examination to explain their

25     evidence.  I think that it's a proper way for the Prosection to show us

Page 17497

 1     the evidence they want to tender.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think what --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It's not -- it's non-associated exhibit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  What the Prosecution intends to do is to give us

 5     examples of this material and present the material in electronic format

 6     for the remainder of the incident sites.  Is that --

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  As I think has

 8     been explained by the witness, the purpose is for the Chamber to be able

 9     to navigate around the 360-degree view.  If -- if the Chamber would like,

10     I can show each and every one of them, but it was my intention to only

11     show one or two so that the Chamber can have a sense of how these images

12     work and the Chamber will later have them during deliberations for its

13     use to examine in the context of the rest of the evidence for each

14     Scheduled Incident.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on admission, we'll have -- we'll

18     first look at your examples and then hear what the explanation with it is

19     and then we'll decide on the 00945C as tendered.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  Shall I put on the record the -- the --

21     the 65 ter numbers which would relate or wait until the end?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you show it, you could -- these are several

23     65 ter numbers assembled in 00945C or how does it work?

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, Your Honour.  45C relates to F1.  45D

25     relates to F4 --

Page 17498

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So the number --

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  -- et cetera.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The letters are indicative for the incident covered

 4     by that -- so let's start with the one you wanted to show examples.  Was

 5     it 00945C which you would use as an example or ...

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No, Your Honours.  I was actually going to begin

 7     with the incident that is titled F3, which is the 11 July 1993 shooting

 8     death of Munira Zametica while collecting water.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then -- and that's -- what number would

10     that be?

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That is --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  00945 and then?

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Well, I'm -- I'm sorry, Judge.  The F3 is

14     actually already in evidence as P1907 but it was one that I was going to

15     use in the context of other questions about F3.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, start with the one you wanted to show us.

17     Tell us what the 65 ter number is and let's look at it.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  Well, I guess I will go back and start

19     with the F1 video.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And the F1 video has -- is not a video but --

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm sorry.  360-degree photo of F1.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that is under number?

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  945C.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  C.  Okay, we start with that one.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We would appreciate it

Page 17499

 1     very much if you could slow down a little.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we will slow down.  I always have to remind the

 3     persons and I'm making the same mistakes myself.

 4             Let's have a look at 945C.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Hogan, I'll ask Ms. Stewart, who has control of the

 7     360-degree picture, as we speak about it in court to take us around, and

 8     as she is slowly taking us around the photo, if you can tell us what it

 9     is we're looking at.

10        A.   I assume everybody's got the same picture as I do.  We just saw

11     the front door, and that is F1, front door.

12             The gate to Zagrici [phoen] Street is being viewed now.  We're

13     rotating around to look towards the south very quickly now.  The

14     neighbouring house blocks much of the view to the south.  But if we could

15     pause --

16        Q.   I'm going ask, yeah, her to stop right --

17        A.   If we could pause there.  To the right of the hanging bit of

18     laundry that we see, and to the left of that upright pole, there's a view

19     of distant terrain.  That distant terrain is actually what they call

20     Baba Stijena or grandmother rock.  That's on the southern slope of Mount

21     Trebevic and is the actual front line positions of the Sarajevo-Romanija

22     Corps.

23        Q.   And, Investigator Hogan, baba rock is that the alleged shooting

24     location as far as you know from -- from other evidence pertaining to F1?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 17500

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could continue I guess to see the whole

 3     360-degree view.

 4             THE WITNESS:  And I should point out that the vegetation and

 5     construction of the neighbouring houses was done after the -- the growth

 6     of the vegetation and the construction was done after the war.  So that

 7     this, unfortunately, does not depict the view at the time of the sniping

 8     incident.

 9             And, again, the wall of the house of the family whose daughter

10     was -- was wounded in this incident.  And we're now back at the

11     entrance -- entrance door.  And that is a complete 360-degree view.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

13        Q.   And can you tell us, the alleged shooting locations -- alleged

14     location of the victim --

15        A.   Yes --

16        Q.   -- in F1?

17        A.   Yes, certainly.  If you -- if the view can be brought down just a

18     little bit and to the right.  And to the right.

19             And just down -- just down as far as can we can go.

20             This is -- I'm sorry, the camera is located where the little girl

21     had been standing, and the reason I wanted to show this doorjamb is

22     because there was further evidence and investigation that was done in

23     relation to that doorjamb.  But the camera tripod was placed where the

24     witness indicated her daughter had been standing at the time that she was

25     wounded.

Page 17501

 1        Q.   Okay.  And when you say the witness indicated about her daughter,

 2     is the -- the witness you're referring to Fatima Pita and the daughter

 3     Anisa Pita?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, I'm little off about

 6     when you would like me to tender these.  Now shall I tender this or are

 7     we waiting for them all at the end?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that if you have another example which you

 9     would like to show to us, that we look at that first and that we then

10     consider where we are, whether we are ready to decide and whether

11     Mr. Lukic is in a position to further comment on or declare his position.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I don't want to guide the Prosecution how to conduct

13     their examination but is it possible that mark that Baba Stijena on this

14     360-angle photograph?  What is use of this photograph?

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yeah.  So I would say actually that -- how I had

16     intended to go through these was to discuss them incident by incident,

17     and if we would look at page 10 in e-court of P3, you would see -- if we

18     could -- if we could turn to that for a moment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Am I right or am I wrong that there is a

20     92 bis motion - I don't know whether we have decided on it already -

21     where the witness indicates -- says something about front lines and

22     Baba Stijena?

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, you are correct.  I believe it was the

24     17th -- your decision on the 17th which --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Recently --

Page 17502

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  -- just was rendered last week.  There is also

 2     additional evidence in the map book that comes right out of the

 3     360-degree picture as well as the video, and that's on page 10 of P3.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And is my recollection correct that in this

 5     92 bis decision that one of the associated exhibits was a picture with

 6     markings or at least related to the statement of the witness?

 7             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, correct.  My recollection is that Mrs. Pita

 8     marked it and that that has been admitted, and you'll see also, Judge,

 9     that the same thing exists, a picture, this picture, with a marking on

10     page 10.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  But it is not this picture, is it?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but let's -- let's -- we'll describe it for

14     the -- could we have a look at it again and could we pan to where the --

15     today's witness said Baba Stijena is.  I think to the left is the

16     shortest route to it.

17             Could we pan to the left.

18             Is there any way we could move this one so that we have ...

19             Pan to the left.  Yes.  Could we stop there.

20             Witness, you referred to Baba Stijena being visible.  I

21     understood this to be, but please correct me when I'm wrong, that at the

22     far distance we see a -- what seems to me a right house and just right of

23     that, the almost highest wooded hill, is that what you referred to as

24     being Baba Stijena or would it be to the left of the house, between the

25     neighbouring house and that house in the far distance?

Page 17503

 1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I -- what was pointed out to me as

 2     Baba Stijena was to the right of that house, that white house with the

 3     red roof.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And there, we would see more or less the top

 5     of a hill just left of what seems to be an isolated tree or whatever it

 6     is.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Lukic, does that -- then we know at least what the witness

10     referred to.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, if -- if the witness could be so kind and mark

12     it for us.  So tomorrow we can check it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that we cannot mark it here on this -- on

14     this electronic version, I think.  Or is that possible?  I'm not aware --

15     I've never seen any markings.

16             Could it still be -- at least, Mr. Lukic, now you have a clear

17     indication as where it is, what the witness referred to.  And we could

18     still ask for a still to be printed out so that, if it would be provided

19     to you later, that you have it to assist you in preparing for your

20     cross-examination.

21             Let's move on to the next question.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question.

23             While we're having this picture here may I ask a question and I

24     understand, Mr. Hogan, that you said that the camera is standing on the

25     spot where the victim was standing.  Notwithstanding that comment, is it

Page 17504

 1     not possible for you to give us an area, more or less, on this picture

 2     where the victim was, for us to see how -- whether he was -- she or he

 3     was in line of sight from that hill?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the camera was set where the victim

 5     was standing and at the same height as the victim was, which is why you

 6     can see that the top of this wheelchair is level with the camera lens.

 7     So whatever the camera lens is showing is the line of sight to where the

 8     victim was.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we go to P3, page 10 so that we have the

11     relevant picture as indicated earlier.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the still is already there in P3.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

14        Q.   Investigator Hogan, can you, looking at page -- it's e-court

15     page 10, page six in the hard copy, can you tell us, please, what it is

16     -- what these two photos that we're looking at and explain to us whether

17     those captions are correct?

18        A.   Yes.  The -- the -- the photo on the left is a -- is the I

19     believe it's from the 360-degree photo that we just viewed and it shows

20     the source of fire, Baba Stijena, in the distance, zoomed in a little

21     bit, I must say, from the 360-degree that we viewed in e-court here just

22     now.

23             And on the right, the picture on the right of the page is myself

24     with the victim's father and he's demonstrating a certain location.  And

25     I'm sorry and the captions are correct.

Page 17505

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, if I may correct a previous

 2     misstatement about what was admitted pursuant to Fatima Pita, I too

 3     quickly agreed, Your Honour, based on my memory as well about a picture

 4     that was circled but I don't see that we -- that the picture was

 5     admitted.  What I do see is that the video of the witness with ICTY

 6     investigator Barry Hogan which was part of 22311 was admitted.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Most likely I have remembered this page of P3,

 8     which misled me perhaps as well.

 9             Mr. Lukic, sufficient information for ...

10             MR. LUKIC:  Only I don't see that fence.  I don't know if it's

11     from the same time.

12             But also I need calculation.  Is it Pita incident or

13     Munir Zametica.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the Pita incident.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Pita incident, okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the little girl on the balcony of her house, if

17     I remember the evidence as well.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's where I think the Defence objected

20     against who was at what positions as a possible contradiction in the

21     evidence and the statement of the witness.

22             Mr. Lukic, that was the position of the Defence there.  And I

23     think that's dealt with in the decision.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

Page 17506

 1        Q.   Mr. Hogan, sorry, can I direct you again to page 10 in e-court of

 2     what we were just looking at, of P3, and looking at the caption

 3     underneath the picture on the left-hand side of the screen, can you tell

 4     us is this from the 360-degree photo or is it from the video interview?

 5     Where you --

 6        A.   It could be either.  I'm sorry, which -- they were -- they were

 7     done at the same time and they showed similar views so this could be

 8     either from the video or it could be from the 360-degree photo.

 9        Q.   And is that the -- that peak that with we see there, Baba rock,

10     is that what was pointed out to you as the alleged origin of fire by both

11     Mr. and Mrs. Pita?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At least in the still, I read still from video

14     interview with victim's father.  So I assume it's from the video

15     interview and not from the 360-degree picture.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.  The -- the only reason I ask

17     the witness to identify because obviously our captions are not evidence

18     without additional testimony so I thought I might try to clarify it

19     through him.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Hochhauser.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

22        Q.   If we can turn, please, to incident F3.  And I'm sorry, excuse

23     me, it's F -- F3.  And if we can please look at the 360-degree picture

24     that's already in evidence as P1907.  And this is the 11 July 1993

25     shooting death of Munir Zametica while collecting water.

Page 17507

 1             Okay.  And if I can ask Ms. Stewart to, again, do a 360-degree

 2     roll through this photograph and, investigator Hogan if you can narrate

 3     for us what it is that we're looking at and ask her, please, to stop when

 4     there are particular positions you wish to explain.

 5        A.   Certainly.

 6             And if you go to the right, please.  And obviously that's the

 7     bank of the -- the small Dobrinja river.  The camera, again, was set up

 8     as closely to the location of the victim as possible.  This view is down

 9     the river, downstream, towards the north-west and now we're looking at

10     the opposite bank and we'll continue until we come to the south-east view

11     down the river.

12             Overhead you can see the small pedestrian bridge.

13             And now the view is turning to the upstream aspect.  And if you

14     could stop there or pause there.  And at the end of this channel, it's --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we zoom in there.  That's possible, as far as

16     I understand.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I think you beat the witness to it, Your Honour.

18     I think that's where he was going.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  And if you could just focus on the end of

20     the channel and the buildings just to the right of the -- the river and

21     zoom in a little bit more.  And I -- I'm afraid you'll have to keep

22     zooming until I say stop.

23             Okay.  You can stop there and just turn to the right.

24             The white -- the white tower-like structure that can be seen

25     against the slopes of that mountain is the Orthodox church at the end of

Page 17508

 1     the river.

 2        Q.   And is that, to your knowledge, the alleged origin of fire for

 3     this incident?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And just for demonstration -- if we could -- sorry --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is it clear enough to you?  It's already

 7     in evidence but where the white tower is.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Being semi-blind I don't see it clearly but I saw

 9     some other pictures I think what this gentleman is talking about.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have no problem, yes.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Go and see a doctor, I would say.  As Defence

13     counsel you need your eyes.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  So, again, if we could please turn back to P3 in

16     evidence, which is the Sarajevo map book, page 10 in the hard copy and

17     page 14 in e-court.

18             And I don't know ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting.  I don't know exactly for what.  But

20     we are waiting for the picture to be shown.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I wonder --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P3 is a large, a very large document.  That explains

23     it.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Might I inquire if the Chamber has the hard copy

25     of the book with them as well.

Page 17509

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't have it -- at least I don't have it at this

 2     moment.  But I think it works well the way you present it.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 4        Q.   Can you tell us please, Mr. Hogan, on page -- on this page, it's

 5     page 14 of this exhibit in e-court, can you tell us where this still is

 6     taken from and what we're looking at here?

 7        A.   Yes.  This picture was taken from the spot where the -- it was

 8     shown to us that the -- near where the victim had been shot and killed.

 9     It's the same view as we just saw on the 360-degree panorama except this

10     is zoomed in quite a bit more so that the Orthodox church tower is much

11     more visible and it's mark with a black arrow in this image.

12        Q.   And is it in fact actually a snap-shot of the 360-degree zoomed

13     in.

14        A.   I believe it is, yes.

15        Q.   And just for clarity the caption on the top of this page 14, that

16     it's the view of the church at Saint Vasilije Ostruski [phoen] under

17     pedestrian bridge on Dobrinja river.  Would that be correct?

18        A.   It's a little awkward language.  It should be from under the

19     pedestrian bridge -- the church itself is not under the pedestrian

20     bridge.  The camera was under the pedestrian bridge.

21        Q.   Now I'd like -- continuing on with discussing this -- this

22     incident, F3, I'd like to play a portion of what's already in evidence as

23     P1906, and I'd like to play the portion please from 1 minute, 26, 35, to

24     1, minute, 27, 42.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 17510

 1             "... Igor Lesic; and videographer camera operator is ..."

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Sorry, I apologise.  We're getting to the

 3     right ...

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "Can you please indicate to the best of your recollection where

 7     Mrs. Zametica was located at the time that she was shot?

 8              "When Mr. Lesic reaches the location --"

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

10        Q.   Now, is this what we just watched - P1906, a portion of it - is

11     this an example of one of the videos that you described the process of

12     taking earlier?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Now, this -- sorry.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can we please have P1904 on the monitor.

16             And it's at page 7 in the English.  And I noticed -- I noticed

17     that in the B/C/S this last page was not uploaded.  The supplemental

18     information sheet was not uploaded so I'll have to ask permission for it

19     to be unlocked so that we can later upload it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think as long as it's still a 65 ter number you

21     can still change it.

22             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's not, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It's P1904.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you need permission to add anything.

Page 17511

 1             Mr. Lukic, may I take it there's no objection against completing

 2     the ...

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Of course, not, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Leave is granted to add the missing page to

 5     the document.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  For the moment I can also just inform Mr. Lukic

 7     that the B/C/S can be -- version can be found at 65 ter 28609, if he has

 8     access to that.  8609.

 9        Q.   So, Mr. Hogan, this is a supplemental information sheet that is

10     already in evidence with -- which contains an interview with the witness

11     conducted by you.  And is that the same witness that we've just seen on

12     the video, P1906?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   And when the witness provided the information, and I'm quoting

15     from this supplemental information sheet, that "on the day Zametica was

16     killed, the water level was lower than today," is that a reference to the

17     water level that we can observe in P1906, the video that we just watched?

18        A.   Yes, it is.  In fact, this information was provided by the

19     witness to me right after filming this video at the scene.

20        Q.   And have you had the opportunity to stand at the yellow mark that

21     we see Mr. Lesic, the other employee of the Office of the Prosecutor who

22     attended the site with you, in the video, have you had the opportunity to

23     stand there?

24        A.   Yes, I have.

25        Q.   And can you describe the line of sight, if any, to the Orthodox

Page 17512

 1     church from there?

 2        A.   It's exactly as depicted in the 360-degree panorama.

 3        Q.   Okay.  You can see it with the naked eye?

 4        A.   Yes, you can.

 5        Q.   And as if the -- if, as the witness indicates in the supplemental

 6     information sheet, the victim were further out toward the middle than was

 7     possible to mark on that day, can you describe the effect on the line of

 8     sight to the church?

 9        A.   The church would be in -- in more obvious -- would be in plainer

10     sight.  It would be actually moved a little bit to the left of the

11     channel of the river.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And also a bit further down?  Because the shape of

13     the basa [phoen] is such that moving to the left, if the water is lower,

14     would also move you slightly down.

15             THE WITNESS:  I think -- I would agree with that.  Yes, I think

16     you're right, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would also have a positive effect on the

18     line of sight?

19             THE WITNESS:  I don't think actually it would have any effect on

20     the -- because the steeple sits up quite a bit higher than the

21     surrounding terrain.  I don't think it would really affect the line of

22     sight too much.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could turn, please, back to the

Page 17513

 1     Sarajevo map book, page 3.  And it's page 12 -- I'm sorry, P3, page 12 in

 2     e-court, please.

 3        Q.   And we see in these side by side photographs that they -- they

 4     are both marked as being the same church.  The one on the left -- the

 5     photograph on the left, it seems to be reddish in tint.  And the

 6     photograph on the right, it seems to be a white structure.  Can you just

 7     orient us to these photographs, please, and tell us what we're looking

 8     at?

 9        A.   Yes.  The photograph on the left, as the caption indicates, was

10     taken in August of 1996 by one of my colleagues from the OTP.  And the

11     church in question was still under construction at the outbreak of war

12     and was not completed.  Hence the scaffolding.  The reddish colour is the

13     natural brick.  It hadn't been stuccoed at the time.

14             The photograph on the right is taken from the opposite angle.

15     This is from the south-east looking towards the south-west -- sorry,

16     looking towards the north-west direction.  And the red circle, you can

17     see the -- is the pedestrian bridge where the 360 panorama was filmed.

18     And the church in the foreground is now completed and has been

19     consecrated and has been used as a church at this time.

20        Q.   And the -- the -- the visible -- I don't know what the proper

21     architectural name for it is, but the spire or structure that we see

22     that's encased in scaffolding on the left, is that the tallest piece of

23     the building when we see it on the right?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  May I ask about timing for the break?  I'm going

Page 17514

 1     to turn to two documents now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Three minutes still to go.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Well, I will begin anyway.

 4        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look at two documents in succession and

 5     then I'll ask you questions about the two of them together.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please see 65 ter 30305 on the

 7     screen, which is a document of the Army of the Republic of BiH, entitled:

 8     "Report of the intelligence organ on the deployment and the strength of

 9     enemy forces," and it's dated 2 October 1993.

10             And I'll direct your attention to the first page -- sorry, the

11     first paragraph at page 2 of the English, which I believe is

12     approximately three quarters of the way down page 1 in the B/C/S.  And

13     it's -- it's where it states:  "The enemy" -- that's perfect in the

14     English.  It's just the -- right where it is.  It's now on the first

15     line.

16             "The enemy uses the church at Vejline," I'm sure the --

17     V-e-j-l-i-n-e, "exclusively as an observation post.  According to our

18     information till now, in the church there are six observers per shift.

19     The observers are armed with snipers and one PAM anti-aircraft

20     machine-gun which is in a well-fortified nest in the church.  From the

21     church, fire is rarely being opened, and when it is opened, a sniper with

22     a silencer is used."

23             If we could then see 65 ter 30306 on the screen, please, which is

24     a BiH 5th Motorised Brigade command report to the 1st Corps command

25     intelligence organ, titled:  "Assessment of the enemy and conclusions,"

Page 17515

 1     and it's dated 30 December 1993.  And if we could turn, please, to page 5

 2     in the English at the end of paragraph 2 and the top of page 3 in the

 3     B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And I'm going to draw your attention, please, to where it reads

 5     at the end of this second paragraph, the paragraph titled 2:

 6             "There's an observation post at the church tower in Veljine

 7     (probably a battalion observation post).  They have six observers per

 8     shift and they come from the SPS barracks for their shifts.  There is a

 9     PAM and a sniper at the church tower below the bell."

10             Now, in regard to both of these documents, were you involved in

11     obtaining these documents?

12        A.   Yes, I was.

13        Q.   And from where?

14        A.   These came from the archives of the Army of Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina through the state minister of defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        Q.   And that -- sorry.  And that was recently?

17        A.   Yes, it was.  That was earlier this year.

18        Q.   Is the church named in these two documents the same church as the

19     one depicted in the photos on e-court pages 12 through 14 of P3 of the

20     Sarajevo map book, the church that we've just been looking at?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I would tender 30305 and 30306.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any objection?

24             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 17516

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 30305 will receive number P2389.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter 30306 will receive number P2390.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is also admitted into evidence.

 5             We take a break now.

 6             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.  We'd like to

 7     see you back in some 20 minutes from now.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness should not yet be brought into the

13     courtroom.

14             Mr. Groome, the Chamber was informed that you would want to raise

15     a matter in the absence of the witness and about timing, scheduling.

16             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you for the

17     opportunity to do so.

18             Your Honours, this submission is in response to the decision that

19     the Chamber announced yesterday with respect to Reynaud Theunens and it

20     concerns the implications of that decision.

21             The Chamber's decision had two parts.  I will deal with them in

22     in order.  With respect to part 1 of the report of the Chamber stated at

23     T17439:

24             "The Chamber is inclined to deny admission of part 1 and that

25     it," meaning the Prosecution, "should elicit any relevant matters related

Page 17517

 1     to this part during the examination of Mr. Theunens."

 2             First, the Prosecution maintains its view as to the importance of

 3     part 1 and requests that if this decision by the Chamber was reached

 4     without considering General Milovanovic's evidence last week at T16929,

 5     the Prosecution would ask the Chamber to reconsider its decision in light

 6     of it.  General Milovanovic testified:

 7             "Since most of us had been trained in the JNA, we were familiar

 8     with those rules and regulations, and that's why it was decided that we

 9     should continue applying them in the Army of the Republika Srpska."

10             The Prosecution requests that the Chamber reconsider whether

11     something other than a wholesale rejection of this portion of the report

12     would not be fairer and more appropriate.

13             Further, the Chamber's decision that the Prosecution should lead

14     the evidence of this admittedly large portion of the report introduces a

15     number of practical problems for the Prosecution.

16             First, doing so would require significantly more time than our

17     estimate of two hours.  The Chamber has given us less than a week to

18     adapt and implement its decision.  The schedule next week has been

19     finalized and it is the last week before the Chamber takes a recess.

20     There is simply insufficient time next week to conduct the examination

21     the Chamber has directed the Prosecution to conduct.

22             Mr. Theunens is an important and substantial witness.  Given the

23     fact that drafting an examination that elicits the most important

24     evidence from part 1 will take some time and that there is insufficient

25     time to do this next week, it is the Prosecution's intention to

Page 17518

 1     reschedule the evidence of Mr. Theunens.  We will work with him to

 2     identify an alternative time for this evidence.

 3             Second, the Prosecution's case is 86 per cent completed.  There

 4     are 16 witnesses remaining, and I have already apportioned the remaining

 5     22 hours the Chamber gave us to present our case among those witnesses.

 6     I have asked Mr. Weber, who is dealing with Mr. Theunens, to give me an

 7     estimate of the minimum amount of time it would take to lead this

 8     evidence from part 1.  The estimate is six hours in addition to the

 9     two hours we originally estimated.  The Prosecution is therefore now

10     making an oral application for the addition of six additional hours to

11     the presentation of its case.

12             With respect to the number of documents, I do want to make it

13     clear that the Prosecution does not agree with the Chamber's

14     characterisation that it has "completely ignored" the Chamber's guidance

15     and refers the Chamber to our military submission filed on the

16     26th of July in paragraph 29.  The Chamber in its guidance from the

17     29th of October said the following:

18             "Furthermore, once a proposed expert witness's conclusions are

19     challenged by the cross-examining party, the Chamber will also allow the

20     calling party to tender certain underlying materials."

21             The Defence in their written response to Mr. Theunens's report

22     indicated that they contested all of it.  Given the amount of material

23     involved and the difficulty in assessing which documents become important

24     as a cross-examination is proceeding, the Prosecution had identified a

25     selection of documents which appear to be necessary given the Defence

Page 17519

 1     written submissions.  However, the Chamber has asked us to reconsider our

 2     approach, and we have.  In light of that, we request two things.

 3             First, that the Chamber hold a 65 ter hearing outside of court

 4     during which the Defence can identify with greater precision those

 5     portions of the report which it truly contests.  The Prosecution

 6     considers that much of the report, particularly those parts related to

 7     military doctrine of the JNA and VRS may not ultimately be contested.  We

 8     would ask that this conference be held as soon as possible so that we can

 9     further reconsider our approach to Mr. Theunens's evidence in an informed

10     way.

11             Second, we would ask that in keeping with the Chamber's guidance,

12     that we be given an opportunity after the completion of Mr. Theunens's

13     testimony to assess which of his conclusions have been challenged during

14     cross-examination and which documents will be necessary for the Chamber

15     to have sight of in order to deliberate on that portion of the report.

16     And, further, that we also have an opportunity to do the same with

17     respect to the Chamber's ultimate decision with respect to which, if any,

18     portions of part 1 it admits into evidence.

19             Thank you, Your Honours, for this opportunity.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

21             Could I ask you one question.  If Mr. Theunens would be

22     rescheduled, would you have a plan B for next week?

23             MR. GROOME:  We do not, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You do not.

25             MR. GROOME:  No.  We would try --

Page 17520

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, we would carefully consider your

 2     requests.  At the same time, I can't anticipate on whether it will be

 3     granted or not.  And, if not, then, of course, the -- perhaps you should

 4     already, taking this possibility into account, see whether there's any

 5     way that could you use the time.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, with so many witnesses -- so few

 7     witnesses remaining, there's really a small pool of witnesses to call.

 8     Mr. Theunens, I believe, is either here now or will be here.  If the

 9     Chamber requires us to call him next week, then -- then we will.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  I'm not talking -- Mr. Theunens was

11     scheduled for when?

12             MR. GROOME:  Tuesday -- or he could start conceivably Monday

13     afternoon after RM070.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, the only thing I'm asking is that if you

15     are rescheduling him for a later stage for -- that -- whether there would

16     be any witness available give testimony next week.

17             MR. GROOME:  I believe that there isn't.  And I will double-check

18     that.  But as I said, we have very few witnesses left.  Definite plans

19     have been made for most.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  Thank you for that.

21             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, at --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just add one word.  How it finally will be

25     resolved is perhaps unclear.  But sometimes you can start doing already

Page 17521

 1     something, that is, to start hearing the testimony, even if you do not

 2     know whether can you fully complete it at that very moment so that we

 3     don't lose time.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I -- I think that's problematic and

 5     certainly is something I have discussed and discussed at length, whether

 6     that was a possibility.  I think it's not in this case.  I would be happy

 7     to address the Chamber in greater deal about that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not inviting you to do so at this moment

 9     but ...

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Hochhauser.

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could just briefly correct the record about

13     something.  When I played P1907, I misspoke as to the timing.  The timing

14     that was played in court of that exhibit was 2 minutes, 29 seconds, to

15     3 minutes, 30 seconds.

16             Okay.  If we could -- I'd like to turn now, please, to

17     Scheduled Incident F4, which is the 3 September 1993 shooting of

18     Nafa Taric and her daughter Alma while walking across the street.  And at

19     this point it's my intention to continue to call up the 360-degree

20     videos, unless -- I guess unless I have direction from the -- from the

21     Chamber otherwise.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We asked you to take a few examples so that we would

23     know better what it is about.

24             Mr. Lukic, do you think that they all should be played or that

25     they all should be put to the witness, where the system that was used is

Page 17522

 1     clear, that witnesses were shown the place where the victim would have

 2     been, a tripod was put there, and then a 360-degree photograph was made

 3     at a time where some changes may have existed in terms of vegetation or

 4     constructions.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know what to tell you now, really.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that is if you -- you can accept -- you can

 7     admit evidence looking at it in court and having an explanation.  Well,

 8     we have an explanation for all of the evidence, how it was created.  And

 9     earlier you said, Well, it's difficult for us.  And I'm asking you

10     whether you can now take a position, having looked at two clear examples,

11     one, by the way, already in evidence on -- on how this material was

12     produced.  And, of course, the Chamber can then further, as with all

13     documents, photographs, et cetera, we just look at them very carefully.

14     We could do the same for the others.  Unless there is some specific

15     reason why they should be shown in court now.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Our understanding, Your Honour, is that associated

17     exhibits are fine to go without being presented because it's part of the

18     statement or testimony as it was in this case.

19             But, if it's non-associated exhibit, we think that it has to be

20     used in the court.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, non-associated exhibits have been admitted

22     very often even from the bar table.

23             Ms. Hochhauser, any ...

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I would just -- I would say I think

25     there has been a sufficient foundation laid for them to enter them as

Page 17523

 1     exhibits -- as non-associated exhibited through this witness.  He is --

 2     he addresses them in the 92 ter testimony that is now in evidence.  He

 3     has addressed, as you said, the procedure for which each of them was

 4     taken.  They're clearly marked what -- what incident they're related to.

 5     But should the -- should the Chamber feel that it's -- it would assist

 6     the Chamber's understanding of the evidence that I'm tendering to go

 7     through or that it would be a requisite to through each them, I'm

 8     prepared to do that.  I don't think it's legally required.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further specific reason why we should look at

10     them instead of -- now in court instead of looking at them as we often do

11     with evidential materials, that is, being part of the body of evidence

12     and then to be -- we'll hear your cross-examination if necessary.  If

13     there's any specific one on which you would like to cross-examine then,

14     of course, you're free to do so.  But is there any specific reason why we

15     could not just watch that as illustrative material to other evidence

16     received, we received on the incident?

17             MR. LUKIC:  The specific reason, Your Honour, might be that -- my

18     understanding is nothing is visible on the first one.  On the first

19     360-degree picture.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there's a lot visible.  A house, where the --

21             MR. LUKIC:  But not the spot from which --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- there might be a fire.  There is nothing there.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you see the spot that's visible.  From where

25     the Prosecution says it was fired.  You don't see on that picture, I do

Page 17524

 1     agree with you, you don't see a gun there.  But you see a lot on that

 2     picture.  Whether it's enough is a different matter.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  The claim was that it was mountain Trebevic.  There

 4     was no mountain on that picture.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was Baba Stijena, not Mount Trebevic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Part of Mount Trebevic --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But that may be close to -- of course, we have seen

 8     other evidence on that.  It's not in isolation.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  This is our -- our position so ... thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You say because you can't see anything on the first

11     one, that's the problem.

12             MR. LUKIC:  But anything but not all that is described.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is overruled, Mr. Lukic.  Therefore,

15     65 ter 00945C, Madam Registrar, would receive number?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the number would be P2391.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             Could you list the other ones, Ms. Hochhauser, so that we decide

19     on their admission as well.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  65 ter 09945D, as in David, is pertaining

21     to incident F4.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Same objection, Mr. Lukic or ...

23             MR. LUKIC:  Same objection.  And I don't know, because we haven't

24     seen it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was on the 65 ter list.

Page 17525

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  It was provided to counsel along with all other

 2     disclosure related to this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the next number for 09945D will be

 5     P2392.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             Next one.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The next one I would actually -- I would just

 9     note that the -- the one pertaining to F5 is already in evidence as P1920

10     and the next one the Prosecution is tendering is 09945E which pertains to

11     incident F9.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the number would be P2393.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  On the presumption that the same objection applies.

15     The Chamber decides that it is admitted into evidence.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  One -- the following one is 65 ter 10443A which

17     pertains to incident F11.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the same objection is raised and

19     hereby overruled.

20             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P2394, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  10443B, which is the video for -- excuse me.

24     The 360-degree picture for F12.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Same objection, I take it.  Also overruled.

Page 17526

 1             Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the number would be P2395.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And the 360-degree picture is admitted into

 4     evidence.  Please proceed.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  10443C which relates to incident F13.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Same procedure, I take it.  Madam Registrar, the

 7     number would be?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  P2396, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  10443D which relates to incident --

11     Scheduled Incident F15.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  On the assumption that the same objection applies

13     and again is overruled.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The number would be P2397, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And finally 10443E which pertains to incident

18     F16.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Same assumptions.

20             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  P2398, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

24        Q.   So turning back to -- sorry, incident F4, which is the

25     3 September 1993 shooting of Nafa Taric and her daughter.

Page 17527

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can we turn, please, to page 16 of P3 in

 2     e-court.  It's page 12 in the hard copy.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us, Mr. Hogan, do you recognise the area

 4     that's depicted in these photographs?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   And can you tell us what -- what we're looking at.

 7        A.   This is the street where the -- Mrs. Taric showed -- excuse me

 8     for a minute.  Pardon me.

 9             Showed me the location of the incident.  These are photographs

10     that she marked in court during her testimony, and I think if you look at

11     number 2 on the left-hand side, left -- sorry.  The photograph on the

12     left-hand side of the page --

13        Q.   That's the one marked number 1?

14        A.   That's the photograph number 1.  That's approximately where we

15     stood when we were doing the filming of her video and the 360-degree

16     panorama.

17        Q.   I'm just going ask you if you can clarify that.

18             So we're looking at the photograph number 1 and when you say

19     that's approximately where we stood are you referring to some marking

20     on -- on that photograph number 1?

21        A.   Yes, sorry.  It was along the footpath there is a circle with the

22     number 2 beside it in blue ink.  Oh, I see in your e-court screen it

23     doesn't show up very much.  I'm looking at the hard copy.

24        Q.   Is it possible to zoom in on the -- sort of rectangular -- the

25     black rectangle with stripes through it.  And just -- just right there is

Page 17528

 1     perfect.

 2             Can you see now?  Are we able to see it in e-court?

 3        A.   It's just -- you can see an X along the footpath and in the hard

 4     copy there is actually a number 2 just past the X along the footpath

 5     towards the background and that's approximately where we were standing.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us this -- this black rectangular

 7     construction that reaches from sort of sidewalk to sidewalk across the

 8     street in the picture or approximately sidewalk to sidewalk, can you tell

 9     us what that would indicate to you?

10        A.   Yes.  That's where she indicated that there had been sniping

11     barricades erected during the war or present during the war, sorry.

12        Q.   Now, during your prior testimony that's currently in evidence,

13     picture -- associated exhibit which still bears the 65 ter number 23174

14     you marked the location of Ozrenska Street.  Could you tell us whether

15     the blue dot that we see on the top of the ridge in the photo marked

16     number 1 is consistent or inconsistent with where you would put the

17     location of Ozrenska Street on this photo on page 16 of P3 in e-court?

18        A.   Yes, it runs along the top of the ridge where the blue dot is,

19     yes.

20        Q.   Now, I'd like to turn to incident -- Scheduled Incident F5 which

21     is the 2 November 1993 shooting of Ramiza Kundo.  And if we could turn,

22     please, to page 18 of the same exhibit, P3, in e-court.  It's page 14 on

23     the hard copy?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Madam Hochhauser, is there

25     anything we need to know about photograph number 2 on this page?

Page 17529

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we can -- thank you, Judge.  If we can go

 2     back to page 17 -- 16 in e-court, please.

 3        Q.   Investigator Hogan, can you tell us with any more specificity,

 4     please, what we're looking at in the photo marked number 2 and from what

 5     vantage point?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is the reverse view of the incident site, again marked

 7     by Witness Nafa Taric in court.  Again the black hash marks indicate the

 8     -- where the sniping barricades had been located during the war and

 9     this -- the photograph was taken from Ozrenska Street looking down to

10     Aziza Sacirbegovic Street.  And, I believe, if you look on photograph 1

11     again, there's a white house at the top of the ridge, the tallest house

12     on the top of the ridge and that's approximately where this photograph

13     number 2 was taken from.

14        Q.   I'll continue to -- onto incident, sniping incident number 5.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And page 18 in e-court.  But I would also while

16     we're coming to page 18 in e-court just put on the record because it

17     seems like an appropriate time in reference to F4 which I didn't have an

18     opportunity to do before the witness entered, that obviously there's a

19     lot of evidence through this witness that we aren't offering -- aren't

20     tendering in reliance on the adjudicated facts and so that's -- pertains

21     to all of these incidents and I want that to be clear on the record.

22        Q.   So turning to page 18 in e-court and incident F5, can you tell

23     us -- there's a circle, a red circle, on the top of the page.  Can you

24     tell us is the location that was indicated to you for incident F5

25     contained within that circle?

Page 17530

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if it's possible can we zoom in on it a

 2     little bit.

 3             THE WITNESS:  The -- the incident location that was indicated to

 4     me is within the circle.  It's almost exactly in the centre of the

 5     circle.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

 7        Q.   And obviously the circles takes up more space than one individual

 8     person would on the photograph.  Are you able to mark for us with further

 9     specificity within this circle where exactly the victim was located?

10        A.   Yes, I can.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  With the Court's indulgence.

12             THE WITNESS:  Would you like an X in the location?

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

14        Q.   Yes, thank you.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  Now, can we -- if we could zoom back out

17     again, please.  Oh, we can't?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It is impossible if it is marked.  If you don't need

19     any more markings, this one could be stored and you could tender it and

20     then you could zoom out again on the original one.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  That's what I'd like to do.  Because I'll tender

22     this one and ask him to mark on a zoomed-out photograph.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, no objections on this marked photograph?

24             MR. LUKIC:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

Page 17531

 1             It's one page of P3 which you can -- we can admit this in

 2     isolation, isn't it, as marked now.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Indeed, Your Honours.  The marked photograph will

 4     be saved as it is separate from P3 and will receive number P2399.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             Would you now look to go back to the original unmarked one or

 7     would you now start with the marked one and then -- but we can't zoom

 8     that out any further from this version, of course.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No.  I would like to go back to the original

10     page 18, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 18 of P3.

12             I just repeated what you said, but perhaps that would not be the

13     right --

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I believe it is the correct -- it should be

15     page 18 which is two -- two past this page.

16        Q.   Now, are you able to tell -- tell us looking -- looking at this

17     photograph, page 18 in e-court of P3, where the field area of Bacici and,

18     I'm going to mispronounce the second one so I'm going to spell it,

19     B-r-i-j-s-c-e [sic] --

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21        Q.   -- are?

22        A.   Yes.  Brijesce is the field at the bottom of the hill, if you

23     continue down the hill from the red circle and across the road to where

24     that modern-looking building is, that is Brijesce area, that big field.

25        Q.   Perhaps you could maybe draw a circle around it.  Does that --

Page 17532

 1        A.   I could.  And in addition, Bacici is off the screen to the right.

 2     So this circled area is Brijesce, and Bacici is off the screen just to

 3     the right in that direction.

 4        Q.   And you've just drawn an arrow.  So that arrow would indicate

 5     that Bacici is just past that arrow --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- but off the field of the photograph; is that right?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Can I offer this into evidence, please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this marked photograph will receive

12     number P2400 -- no -- yes, P2400.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And specifically in relation to that -- that

15     item of evidence that's just been offered, I would just draw the

16     Chamber's attention to adjudicated fact 2263.

17              Can we have associated exhibit, please, 65 ter 23176 on the

18     screen?

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

21        Q.   And it's coming up, I -- this is a -- what will be coming up is a

22     mark you -- a map you marked previously in relation to this incident, F5,

23     when asked to mark the field from which the shooting originated.  And I

24     noticed actually in looking at it that it's a little difficult to discern

25     at this point which is your marking with all of the colours on this map.

Page 17533

 1     So could you please indicate for the Court, describe to us, which is your

 2     marking of that field?

 3        A.   Right.  It's in the top left portion of this image -- of this map

 4     image and I made a red circular figure, but it's an uneven circle because

 5     my hand was shaking at the time, and it's in -- just down to the left of

 6     the number 5, the red dot with the number 5 beside it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Turning now to incident -- Scheduled Incident F9, the

 8     26 June 1994 shooting of 16-year-old Sanela Muratovic.

 9             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could turn to page 20 in the map book,

10     P3, in e-court, please.  It's page 16 in the hard copy.

11        Q.   And as it's coming up, I believe you'll see there's a text box on

12     the upper right-hand corner which marks the school for the blind as the

13     place indicated with a 1, and the place of F9 as the place indicated on

14     the map with a 2.

15        A.   Yes, I see that.

16        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us anything about the reliability of

17     the -- of those markers of that caption?

18        A.   They are accurate.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'll just wait for it to come up before I move

20     on.

21             Can we turn to the next page in this exhibit, please, of P3, page

22     21 in e-court.  Actually, I'm sorry, while we still have page 20 up on

23     the screen -- that's right.  I'll go to 21.  It's okay.  Sorry.  I

24     apologise.

25        Q.   Can you tell us, please, what is it we're looking at here.

Page 17534

 1     What -- what's -- what does this photo show?

 2        A.   This photo shows the witness at the location where she was

 3     showing me where her friend had been shot, and in the background, circled

 4     in red is the corner of the -- the upper corner of the school for the

 5     blind.

 6        Q.   And in this photograph, can you tell us specifically where the

 7     witness is -- well, withdrawn.

 8             Is this -- is this a still from the videos that you described

 9     earlier how they were taken?

10        A.   I believe this is a still from the video.  It looks as if we were

11     actually filming at the time.

12        Q.   Okay.  And the -- the location that the -- the woman in this

13     photograph is standing, can you tell us, was that her -- was that her

14     estimation of where the victim was?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, have you -- have you yourself been inside the school for the

17     blind?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.  And if we can turn to the next page,

20     which is page 22 in e-court, please.

21        Q.   As it comes up, the question I'll ask you when you can see it on

22     the screen is -- there's a red circle on this page, in the middle of the

23     page, and there's a caption that reads:  "View from the school for the

24     blind."  Can you tell us whether this is indeed the view from the school

25     for the blind and what that circle indicates to you?  What was that --

Page 17535

 1     the position of that circle around?

 2        A.   Yes.  That red circle is the position where we just saw myself

 3     and the witness standing in the previous photograph where the sniping

 4     victim was at the time she was shot.  And this does indicate accurately

 5     the view from the top left window from the school for the blind.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I believe that we're at the time

 7     for the break.  I know that I estimated about an hour and a half with

 8     this witness.  I believe --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  My information was one hour.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I sent an e-mail -- we sent an e-mail either

11     yesterday or the day before changing the estimation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could be.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  But in any case, I would expect actually to take

14     perhaps five to ten minutes longer than that, if that's all right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And how much time would you, then, in your estimate

16     still need tomorrow?

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Approximately half an hour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Half an hour is granted for tomorrow.

19             Then we'll adjourn for the day.  And, Mr. Hogan, I'd like to

20     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way

21     with whomever about your testimony, whether given already or still to be

22     given tomorrow.

23             THE WITNESS:  Understood, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back

25     tomorrow morning at 9.30.

Page 17536

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

 3     Friday, the 27th of September, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 4     courtroom, I.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 27th day of

 7                           September, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.