Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18162

 1                           Monday, 21 October 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminaries, if I am well-informed.  Therefore, if

12     we could hear the testimony of the next witness this morning and use any

13     remaining time for small procedural issues still to be dealt with.

14             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.  And the next

15     witness is?

16             MS. MARCUS:  Next witness, Your Honours, good morning, is

17     Dora Sokola.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's hereby on the record.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Ms. Sokola.

21             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the rules require that you

23     make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

24     and nothing but the truth.

25             The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make the

Page 18163

 1     solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  DORA SOKOLA

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 6             Ms. Sokola, you'll first be examined by Ms. Marcus.  Ms. Marcus

 7     is, not unknown to you, I take it, counsel for the Prosecution.

 8             Please proceed, Ms. Marcus.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Ms. Marcus:

11        Q.   Good morning, Ms. Sokola.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Could you kindly state your full name and date of birth for the

14     record.

15        A.   My name is Dora Sokola, and my date of birth is the 19th of May,

16     1972.

17        Q.   Could you tell us where you were born, please.

18        A.   I was born in Zagreb, in Croatia.

19        Q.   And is that where you grew up as well?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you tell the Court your native language, please.

22        A.   Croatian.

23        Q.   Was this the language you spoke at home throughout your

24     childhood?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18164

 1        Q.   And was Croatian also the language of your education as a child?

 2        A.   Yes, it was.

 3        Q.   When did you come to learn English?

 4        A.   I started learning English when I was four years old and then

 5     throughout my life.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Sokola, you have a natural huge speed of speech.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I'm so sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you to --

 9             THE WITNESS:  That's what I was worried about.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- slow down.  Don't worry about it.  We'll come

11     over it but please keep it in mind.

12             MS. MARCUS:

13        Q.   Ms. Sokola, could you tell the Court a little bit about your

14     education, please.

15        A.   I was educated through the end of high school in Croatia, and

16     then I spent a year in the US and then came back to Croatia for a year or

17     so to continue my university studies, after which I moved to Belgium

18     where I completed university.

19        Q.   And what was your field of study?

20        A.   International affairs.

21        Q.   Could you tell the Court about your work history, just maybe

22     briefly, with some date, some years, let's say, please?

23        A.   Okay.  In 1991, I believe, I started working once I returned from

24     the US back to Croatia, I started working for ECMM as an interpreter, the

25     European Community Monitoring Mission as an interpreter.  And then once I

Page 18165

 1     moved to Belgium in 1994, I -- in November 1994 I started working at the

 2     ICTY as a field interpreter.

 3        Q.   And what is a field interpreter, please?

 4        A.   A field interpreter is a -- I was working for the OTP and we went

 5     on missions to talk to -- to witnesses.  It was in the very early days to

 6     investigate potential crimes.  So I was interpreting for the

 7     investigators and attorneys at the time.

 8        Q.   So since that time, that was 1994 --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Have you been working at the ICTY and, if so, in what capacity?

11        A.   I continued to work as a field interpreter until 1995 or so, and

12     then in 1998 I became a full-time language assistant here.  And in 1999,

13     I passed the translation professional translator exam with the CLSS in

14     the ICTY and I became a translator, which I continued to do until 2005

15     within the OTP.  And then in 2005, I was head-hunted to go to the

16     State Court in Bosnia as an analyst where I spent two years and then I

17     came back here as an analyst.

18        Q.   Focussing on your work as a language assistant, has your work

19     also involved transcribing and translating audio recordings?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Turning now to the events of the 18th of February, 2013, could I

22     ask you, please, to tell the Court what task were given by the

23     Prosecution on that day.

24        A.   I received an e-mail, along with several of my colleagues, I

25     received an e-mail asking for assistance in court to listen to any

Page 18166

 1     utterances by Mr. Mladic that might be made without having been recorded.

 2        Q.   And were you told the reason for that request, for that task?

 3        A.   The sensitivity and the story that the witness had to tell.

 4        Q.   Ms. Sokola, I'd like to ask you a few questions about your

 5     recollection of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Mladic's outbursts

 6     which you recorded on the 18th of February.

 7             First, do you recall whether the outburst happened during a break

 8     or during a hearing?

 9        A.   It was during a break between the first and the second session.

10        Q.   Do you perhaps remember where during the break or when during the

11     break the outbursts were made?

12        A.   It was before the -- the, Your Honours, Judges, came in.

13        Q.   Do you recall who was present in the courtroom when the accused

14     exclaimed these words?

15        A.   I recall that most of the Prosecution team was already there, and

16     the outburst occurred as the Defence team came in.

17        Q.   Can you describe Mr. Mladic's movements during the utterance of

18     these words to the extent you are able to?

19        A.   He was speaking as he came in, into the courtroom, and continued

20     to speak until he sat down, until the Judges came in.

21        Q.   How is it that you were able to hear his words?

22        A.   Mr. Mladic is fairly loud.

23        Q.   Did you take down any notes of what you heard?

24        A.   Yes.  I -- I took down all that I could hear.

25        Q.   And in what language did you make those notes, please?

Page 18167

 1        A.   I wrote it in English.

 2        Q.   How soon after the accused made these statements did you note

 3     them down?

 4        A.   At the same time.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honours, before I call up the next document, I

 6     would like to pose a query to the Chamber.

 7             During the testimony of Ms. Karall, I called up the e-mail she

 8     had sent on the day of the accused's exclamations with her rendition of

 9     the words she heard the accused say.  It seemed to me not to be improper

10     because it was my understanding that the memory of the witness was not in

11     question but, rather, the accuracy of the content of what she heard the

12     accused say.  However, I detected what I thought was perhaps a bit of

13     discomfort on the part of the Chamber when I did that.  So before I do

14     that again, I would like to inquire with the Chamber if I may proceed in

15     the same manner with Ms. Sokola, that is, to call up an information

16     report which was prepared with -- by an investigator right after the

17     exclamations were heard and noted down by her.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I consult with my colleagues, does the

19     Defence take any position in relation to this?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, we had no

21     problem with that, and said so earlier.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, are we talking about 30403, 65 ter, or

24     are we talking about the information report 30270?

25             MS. MARCUS:  The latter, Your Honour.  The latter, 30270.

Page 18168

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, the Chamber has no problem with the way

 4     in which you intend to proceed as you suggested, so feel free to do so.

 5             MS. MARCUS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the Court Officer

 6     please call up 65 ter 30270.

 7             This is an information report taken by an OTP investigator from

 8     Ms. Sokola on the 18th of February, 2013.

 9        Q.   Ms. Sokola, do you see the information report taken by

10     investigator Erin Gallagher on the screen in front of you?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Do you recall giving the information that's in this information

13     report to Investigator Gallagher?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you confirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the information

16     you provided as contained in this information report?

17        A.   It is true.

18        Q.   And before I ask you to read the quote that you heard Mr. Mladic

19     say into the record, could I just ask you to explain for us what the --

20     the three dots that appear between some of the phrases, what -- what that

21     means?

22        A.   It means that I did not hear exactly the -- the beginning of the

23     sentence, so rather than guess, I put dot, dot, dot.

24        Q.   And can you tell us again before you read whether all of these

25     words were spoken right after each other or whether they were different

Page 18169

 1     phrases were spoken over a period of time.  You described there was a

 2     period of time over which he was speaking.

 3        A.   They were -- they were spoken over a period of time from the

 4     moment that Mr. Mladic came in until the time that the Chamber walked in,

 5     into the court.

 6        Q.   Could I ask you please to read the words you heard the accused

 7     exclaim in B/C/S aloud?

 8        A.   [Interpretation] "Branko, is Selmo alive.  Mesa Selimovic's

 9     Muslim family.  I got them out of Mostar.

10             "All of this is correct and I'm proud of them.  What the fuck

11     does a Muslim woman want?  Ask her about Cicmo.  He was a great fighter,

12     killed at Trnovo.  Did he rape her?  Or Lieutenant-Colonel Miljkovic, did

13     he rape her?  Vlasenica -- chief was --"

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to the next page -- can we go to the

15     next page in English, please.

16             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we have --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was a request --

19             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was request to the court usher.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  B/C/S.  Not yet.  No.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... to Vlasenica.  Cifo's

24     brother-in-law and his daughter Vesna, they were in Vienna later.  They

25     had come from Macedonia and they asked me to get the Macedonians out of

Page 18170

 1     Sarajevo."

 2             MS. MARCUS:

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Ms. Sokola, who translated the -- the English notes

 4     that you took back into B/C/S as we see in the information report?

 5        A.   I did.

 6        Q.   Do you know what paper the accused was waving as you describe in

 7     the information report?

 8        A.   I don't, no.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  The Prosecution tenders into evidence this

10     information report, 30720, as a public exhibit.  The redactions at the

11     beginning are the portion that related to Ms. Karall, her evidence.  And

12     the redactions at the end relate to what Mr. Mladic exclaimed as he was

13     being removed from the courtroom which the Prosecution does not seek to

14     tender into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, I hear of no objections.  I see

16     that there are no objections, the number would be.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30270 receives number P2533,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P2533 is admitted.

20             MS. MARCUS:

21        Q.   Ms. Sokola, thank you very much.

22             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to --

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may get just a moment to

Page 18171

 1     consult my client, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have a short moment.  And your client is

 3     expected to keep the volume of his voice down so that no one can hear

 4     your conversation.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic, I can hear you

 7     even through my earphones, so, therefore, that's not the volume I expect.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Sokola, you'll now be cross-examined by

11     Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Sokola.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   I will ask you only a couple of questions and let us try to slow

16     down because both you and I tend to speak fast.

17             The first thing I would like to clarify is your task on that day

18     in the courtroom.  You spoke about that partly, but I would like to hear

19     the specifics now.  What exactly was your task?  Were what were you

20     follow specifically?

21        A.   I -- I was to follow any, as I said, any utterances made by

22     Mr. Mladic off the record at the time when he was not being recorded, so

23     during the breaks, and to record, myself, write down anything he says.

24        Q.   At what moment did you enter the courtroom with that assignment?

25        A.   During the first break.

Page 18172

 1        Q.   Were you together in -- with Maria Karall, in this courtroom at

 2     any point in time?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   The moment when you entered the courtroom during the first break,

 5     was that -- was Mr. Mladic present in the courtroom at that time?

 6        A.   Mr. Mladic was not present at -- in the courtroom at the time.

 7        Q.   Until that day, did you ever have a similar assignment?

 8        A.   Similar, yes; the same, no.

 9        Q.   And did you -- were you present in the courtroom with a similar

10     task at any time before the event in question?

11        A.   I don't believe so, no.  I don't recall so.

12        Q.   Who specifically gave you that assignment?

13        A.   Ms. Marcus.

14        Q.   Was it ever pointed out to you that the communication between a

15     defendant and his Defence counsels is privileged communication?

16        A.   I was given a task, and I did it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I have to understand your answer that this was

18     not pointed out to you, or was it ever pointed out to you?

19             THE WITNESS:  It was not pointed out to me at the time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So may I conclude, then, that it was your task to follow and note

24     down whatever was being said outside the trial, that is, what was being

25     said between the defendant and his Defence counsel and what -- and does

Page 18173

 1     not enter the transcript?

 2        A.   No.  My task was to follow what Mr. Mladic said.  Not what the

 3     Defence attorneys said.  Just what Mr. Mladic said.

 4        Q.   Were you ever told to follow only what was being said aloud and

 5     make an assessment yourself what -- what aloud is?  Or were you supposed

 6     to note down whatever you were able to hear?

 7        A.   Whatever I was able to hear.

 8        Q.   Were you ever told to note down only what Mr. Mladic says in

 9     connection with the witness or anything he says to his Defence attorney

10     and that you're able to hear?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you are including, again and again,

12     that the task was to record what Mr. Mladic said to his Defence

13     attorneys.  Whereas the witness has now twice explained that all

14     utterances, not excluding the ones that you are referring to, that all

15     utterances were to be written down.

16             So would you please refrain in your question from more or less

17     twisting the previous answer given by the witness.

18             Perhaps you repeat the question.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to be briefer and

20     more direct, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Is it correct that your task was to note down whatever

22     General Mladic was saying to his Defence counsel, no matter whether it

23     related to the witness that testified on that day?

24        A.   It is correct that I was told to record -- to note down and

25     follow everything that Mr. Mladic said, not necessarily to his Defence

Page 18174

 1     attorneys, though.

 2        Q.   Let me try and understand this better.  If Mr. Mladic were to

 3     speak about his family or his private affairs to his Defence counsel, was

 4     it your task to record that too?

 5        A.   I believe so, yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now together take another look at document

 7     30270 from the 65 ter list.

 8             I will now ask you, Ms. Sokola, if you can tell me which words of

 9     the ones that you noted down Mr. Mladic uttered when -- as he was

10     entering the courtroom and where does the text begin that he uttered from

11     his usual place in the courtroom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please clarify your question.  You are

13     referring to "usual place."  Could you be more precise, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll take it step by step,

15     Your Honours.

16        Q.   Please, can you tell us, out of all of these words that you wrote

17     down, what were the words that Mr. Mladic uttered as he walked into the

18     courtroom as you explained that during the examination-in-chief?

19        A.   I wrote down the -- the words, the sentences as -- in -- in the

20     order that they were happening.  So he would have been asking about

21     Mesa Selimovic as he entered.  I believe.

22        Q.   When he uttered his first sentence, "Branko, is Selmo alive," did

23     you notice who it was that he specifically addressed this question to?

24        A.   I can tell you what I assumed, that it was his Defence attorney,

25     Branko Lukic, Mr. Branko Lukic.  But I was not looking at Mr. Mladic

Page 18175

 1     throughout this time because I was also writing things down.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that Mesa Selimovic is the first and last name of a

 3     well-known Yugoslav writer?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know that this Yugoslav writer, Mesa Selimovic, passed

 6     away many years before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Are you sure that you heard that, on that occasion, Mr. Mladic

 9     mentioned precisely that name, Mesa Selimovic?

10        A.   That is what I heard at the time, yes.

11        Q.   These sentences, "Branko, is Selmo alive?  Mesa Selimovic, his

12     Muslim family, I got them out of Mostar," were they uttered in a

13     continuous manner or was there an interruption in terms of time between

14     these sentences?

15        A.   There may have been a few seconds between each section of the

16     sentence but they seemed to be a continuous phrase.

17        Q.   Your next note says:  "All of this is correct."  And then you

18     have this digression.  He's waving a piece of paper.  Can you tell the

19     Trial Chamber whether it is a book, a single piece of paper, or several

20     pieces of paper that General Mladic was waving?

21        A.   It was not a book.  If it had been a book, I believe I would have

22     written "book."  But I don't recall if it was a single sheet of paper or

23     several.

24        Q.   The next sentence that you wrote down says:

25             "Ask her about Cicmo.  He was a great fighter, killed at Trnovo.

Page 18176

 1     Did he rape her?  Or did Lieutenant-Colonel Miljkovic, did he rape her?"

 2             Who was it that Mr. Mladic was addressing as he uttered this

 3     sentence?

 4        A.   The Defence team that that was with him.

 5        Q.   And then what follows is the next sentence that you wrote down,

 6     the part that did you not manage to write down, and then:

 7             "... to Vlasenica.  Cifo's brother-in-law and his daughter Vesna,

 8     they were in Vienna later.  They had come from Macedonia, and they asked

 9     me to get the Macedonians out of Sarajevo."

10             Would you agree with me that this sentence has no contextual link

11     to the previous text and the previous sentence?

12        A.   I agree.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Between these sentences, was there an interruption, a

14     pause, or did all this happen in a flow, if you will?

15        A.   No, there -- there were pauses between these sentences.  And --

16     at which time also the -- Mr. Lukic and other members of the Defence

17     team, if I recall correctly, spoke to -- to Mr. Mladic.

18        Q.   Do you want to tell us now that there was some communication that

19     you did not write down, something that Mr. Mladic had uttered to his

20     Defence attorneys except for this just before "to Vlasenica"?

21        A.   No.  I'm saying that there was -- this was a conversation and

22     that I did not hear what was being said by other people -- people other

23     than Mr. Mladic.

24        Q.   Yes, and that's why I'm asking you.  Was there anything else that

25     Mr. Mladic had uttered to his Defence attorneys and that you did not

Page 18177

 1     write that down except for what you marked for us here, "to Vlasenica"?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I repeat what I said before.  The

 3     first question is:  Was there anything else that Mr. Mladic had uttered

 4     and that did you not write down except for what you marked?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I don't believe so.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't believe so.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just jump in, Mr. Stojanovic.  But you

10     didn't write what other people said to Mr. Mladic?

11             THE WITNESS:  I didn't hear what other people said.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you didn't write that.  And you were not

13     instructed to write what other people said.

14             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  No.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, please observe a pause

17     between question and answer.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, just half a

19     moment, half a minute, Your Honours, please, and it will be very quiet.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Until -- up to the moment where Mr. Mladic is

21     seated again, and again I repeat:  No conversation which is audible for

22     other persons, so that means whispering, otherwise, have you to wait

23     until the break.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you often take off your earphones when

Page 18178

 1     you start your conversation which results in missing my words.  Now,

 2     fortunately, your volume was down.  But would you please not take them

 3     off so that you miss my instructions to you.

 4             Let's proceed.  Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Just one more question, Ms. Sokola.

 7             What did General Mladic look like as he entered the courtroom?

 8        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please rephrase this very vague question.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Was he red in the face?

12        A.   I -- I don't recall this at all, no.

13        Q.   Did he come across as a person who was upset, agitated?

14        A.   Not particularly.  No, I don't think so.

15        Q.   The words that he uttered, did he utter them too loud in a way

16     that was not the usual way in which one communicates with one's Defence

17     counsel?

18        A.   I have heard Mr. Mladic utter things in court off the record as

19     well and it's always at a certain volume.  So I don't -- it wasn't out of

20     the norm, no, I don't think so.

21             MS. MARCUS:  I'm sorry --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus.

23             MS. MARCUS:  It just seems that the witness perhaps didn't

24     understand the question, so I just wanted to be sure that that's

25     clarified.

Page 18179

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's try to keep things as simple as we can.

 2             Are you familiar with the volume with which Mr. Mladic speaks

 3     when he consults with counsel?  In court, I mean.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I have -- yes.  I have -- I have watched the

 5     proceedings before, yes.  So I am familiar through that, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you also have been today in court, where

 7     Mr. Mladic consulted with counsel.  Was that at a similar volume as when

 8     he spoke when he -- on the date about which you testify?

 9             THE WITNESS:  No, it was -- it was at much lower volume today.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What was your -- where were you seated in the

11     courtroom?

12             THE WITNESS:  I was seated with the Prosecution team.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you seated at the back row closest to the

14     interpreters' booth?

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  When Mr. Mladic entered the courtroom, where was he?

17     Was he at the opposite side of the courtroom?

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he come ever any closer to you than being at the

20     very last row of the courtroom closest to the interpreters' booth to, at

21     this moment as you're seated here, to your left?

22             THE WITNESS:  No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation].

25        Q.   I shall conclude with the following question.

Page 18180

 1             All of this communication, was it between Mr. Mladic and his

 2     Defence attorneys?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And at that point in time, there were no Judges in the courtroom

 5     and the witness was not in the courtroom either; is that correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one more question for you before I give an

 9     opportunity to Ms. Marcus for re-examination.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the volume of Mr. Mladic's voice such that it

12     was easy for you to hear him, or did you have to make a great effort in

13     trying to hear what he said?

14        A.   It was very easy to hear him.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means, if I understand you well, that it was

16     so loud as for you to easily hear what he said from the other side of the

17     courtroom.

18        A.   That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I -- there seem to be -- I start to my

22     left.  Judge Fluegge may have one or more questions for you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You told us about the words he uttered.  The

24     first word you noted down, was that uttered while Mr. Mladic was

25     standing, walking, or sitting?

Page 18181

 1        A.   He was -- he was walking, I believe.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And he continued while he was sitting?  Or

 3     seated?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has one or more questions for.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you were sitting where you were sitting, were

 8     you hiding away or were you sitting in such a way that Mr. Mladic could

 9     see you?

10        A.   No, I believe Mr. Mladic could see me.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you alone in the courtroom, other than the

12     team, the Defence team?

13        A.   No, most of the Prosecution team was already here.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They were all there.

15        A.   Most of them, yes.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And Mr. Mladic could see them too?  They were not

17     hiding.

18        A.   Yes, yes, of course.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, any further questions for the witness?

21             MS. MARCUS:  Just a few, Your Honour.

22                           Re-examination by Ms. Marcus:

23        Q.   Ms. Sokola, was it your impression that the accused was trying to

24     have a private conversation with his attorneys when you heard him exclaim

25     these words?

Page 18182

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             The witness is being asked to speculate what Mr. Mladic thought

 3     or meant.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The witness is asked the -- for the impression

 5     she gained at the time.  Now, when evaluating the evidence, what the

 6     probative value of such an expression is is a different matter, but she's

 7     not invited to speculate.

 8             Could you tell us whether you formed an impression about whether

 9     the conversation was meant to be with his counsel only, his attorneys?

10             THE WITNESS:  I could not form an impression whether he intended

11     to speak only to his counsel.  But it was not -- the impression I did get

12     was that it was not meant to be a private conversation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Ms. Marcus.

14             MS. MARCUS:

15        Q.   Were you aware of which part of his exclamations would have

16     related to the witness testimony and which might not have?

17        A.   From the context, yes, I believe so.

18        Q.   Were you asked to conduct this kind of analysis?

19        A.   No.

20             MS. MARCUS:  No further questions, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Marcus.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, I do understand that you have one or more

23     questions triggered by either questions of the Bench or questions by

24     Ms. Marcus.

25             Please proceed.

Page 18183

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, just

 2     one question.

 3                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Today, in response to Judge Orie's question, at

 5     one point in time you said that this was loud communication and that you

 6     could hear that.

 7             This is what I'm asking you now:  How is it possible, then, that

 8     part of this communication that you described in such a way you did not

 9     write down and you could not hear?

10        A.   There were other people coming into the court -- at all -- it was

11     during the break so other people were coming into the Prosecution side of

12     the court.  It may have -- may be that I was distracted for a second and

13     did not hear.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has one more question for you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did the other people talk at the same volume of

17     voice as Mr. Mladic was speaking?

18             THE WITNESS:  I don't think so.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What would be the difference, in your view?

20             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Mladic was louder than the rest of the people

21     in court.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

23             Ms. Sokola, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to thank

24     you for coming to this courtroom and for having answered all the

25     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench.  You are

Page 18184

 1     excused, and you may follow the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

 5     and I do apologise to my learned friend, I was asked by our client to

 6     make it possible for him to be transported even if we are going to stay

 7     in court longer because at 11.00 he has a religious service scheduled and

 8     he would like to attend.  So I'm going to ask you if we continue to deal

 9     with procedural matters, we do have Mr. Mladic's consent to go on, but

10     could he please be transported to where he would like to go.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if Mr. Mladic waives his right to be present

13     in court, nothing, as far as the Chamber is concerned, opposes him being

14     transported back.  The Chamber, however, is not in a position to give any

15     instructions or orders in relation to transportation, but if that could

16     be achieved, I think the Chamber would fully support that so that

17     Mr. Mladic would be back in time to -- to attend that ceremony.

18             Even -- I have a few matters I would like to deal with before the

19     break, mainly asking the Prosecution -- the Defence to consider whether

20     there's any response.  If Mr. Mladic would prefer already to leave the

21     courtroom at this moment, it -- he is granted leave to do so.

22             So if Mr. Mladic even before the end of this session would prefer

23     to leave ...

24             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I just note that his waiver is not on

25     the record.  I just thought that might be --

Page 18185

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Although expressed by counsel.  Counsel says that he

 2     is and we usually rely on -- I think that's what Mr. Stojanovic said.  So

 3     I'm asking -- we continue deal with procedural matters.  We do have

 4     Mr. Mladic's consent to go on, but could he please be transported, which

 5     is understood as a waiver of his right not to be present.

 6             Is that a proper understanding, Mr. Stojanovic?  I see Mr. Mladic

 7     nodding yes, which is hereby put on the record as well.  And he repeats

 8     it.

 9             If Mr. Mladic would like to be escorted out of the courtroom at

10     this moment, then security is invited to escort ... no, he --

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meanwhile, I just continue.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since this is not

15     going to last for a long time, then you can continue with Mr. Mladic's

16     consent.  He will stay on.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I deal with a few matters only at this moment.

18             Ms. Marcus.

19             MS. MARCUS:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I just wanted to mention

20     that I would like to make a brief bar table submission that came up as a

21     result of the cross-examination, but I can do that at the start of the

22     next session or as Your Honours wish.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, now Mr. Mladic is aware of your

24     intention, and we'll see whether he intends to remain with us or whether

25     he waives his right to be present.

Page 18186

 1             For the first matter I have to briefly move into private session.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             On the 16th of October, the Prosecution informed the Defence and

19     the Chamber that it had uploaded a missing B/C/S translation for P2198

20     MFI'd, as well as a revised English translation for P1110, MFI'd.

21             The Defence stated that it would respond that same day.  We have

22     not heard from the Defence, however.

23             Can you express the Defence position at this moment for P2198,

24     Mr. Stojanovic?  If -- if not, we'd like to hear from you after the

25     break.

Page 18187

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall try to

 2     respond immediately after the break.  We just need to identify this.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, finally, a short observation in relation

 4     to Rule 65 ter 28036.

 5             On the 18th of October, we dealt with this Rule 65 ter number.  I

 6     think 28036 was initially tendered through Witness RM506 and the Defence

 7     then indicated that they needed to consider whether they have any

 8     objections to admission.  They were instructed to do so not later than

 9     that same week, which is found at transcript page 1711.  That's -- seems

10     to be a mistake.  It could not possibly be.  But so my reference to the

11     transcript is inaccurate.  Nevertheless, the Chamber would like to hear

12     the Defence's position in relation to 65 ter 28036.  Perhaps also after

13     the break, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Our colleague

15     Mr. Ivetic is working on that, and I believe that this response is going

16     to be filed today, or it is already taking place.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, would it assist the parties if we take a

18     slightly longer break and deal with a few other procedural matters after

19     the break?  Since there's no other witness available, we might take a bit

20     more time.

21             Then I suggest a break until quarter past 11.00.  Would that do?

22     I hear of no objections.  If Mr. Mladic wants to return to the UNDU, as I

23     said before, the Chamber has no objections.  And if Mr. Mladic does not

24     return in the courtroom after the break, this will be understood as an

25     explicit waiver to be present.

Page 18188

 1             We take a break and we resume at quarter past 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I hereby put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not

 6     present in court.  The Chamber understands his absence as a waiver of his

 7     right to attend the proceedings.

 8             Perhaps, Ms. Marcus, you announced that you would raise a bar

 9     table submission.

10             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

11             It's one document.  It's 65 ter 30266.  This was the

12     demonstrative exhibit that was distributed in the courtroom during the

13     testimony of RM048 and Mr. Stojanovic has informed me that he has no

14     objections to this being admitted.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 65 ter 30266 receives number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Number P2534, Your Honours.

17             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, it should be under seal, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P2534 is admitted under seal.

19             Nothing else, Ms. Marcus.

20             MS. MARCUS:  Just more thing I wanted to put on the record in

21     relation to this and that would be the end of that, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MS. MARCUS:  I just wanted refer the Chamber to the courtroom

24     video, which was admitted as P2181, at clips 5 and 6, and this is all in

25     relation to the evidence of Ms. Sokola.  And to Exhibits P357 at page --

Page 18189

 1     in particular, page 69 in the original B/C/S handwritten version, and

 2     P359, pages 17 and 18, pardon me, in the handwritten B/C/S original.

 3             The Prosecution's submission is that the document that was just

 4     admitted, P2534, and these two exhibits, portions of exhibits which I've

 5     just mentioned, are the papers that Mr. Mladic was waving during the time

 6     he made the utterances.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's argument already, although what he

 8     showed or not is interpretation of the evidence.

 9             MS. MARCUS:  Yes, Your Honour.  It was just to put it on the

10     record to guide the Chamber.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, any matter from the Defence to be discussed?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must admit that

14     I haven't fully understood on what basis the Prosecutor is making this

15     suggestion.  Where is this found at in the witness's statement that

16     Mr. Mladic was waving a sheet of paper?  It doesn't follow.  I don't

17     understand.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- let me try to explain to you how I understood

19     how the Chamber understood it.

20             That, although the witness did not -- said, could not tell us,

21     what exactly it was that Mr. Mladic had shown, that it is, nevertheless,

22     the Prosecution's position that the portions of P357 and P359 mentioned

23     by Ms. Marcus were the documents the -- Mr. Mladic was showing.

24             That is the Prosecution's position in relation to this evidence,

25     even where the witness could not identify it -- could not identify the

Page 18190

 1     papers as such.  That's how I understood it.  Yes.

 2             Then, I'll move on.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, even after 65 ter 30270 was already admitted as

 4     P2533, you still referred to the -- to the 65 ter number.  I hereby put

 5     on the record that it was admitted as P2533.

 6             Now, I have a few more matters which I'd like to deal with.

 7             The -- for the first one, I'd like to move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             My next issue deals with Exhibits P1501 and P1502.

Page 18191

 1             On the 28th of May of this year, the Chamber admitted

 2     Exhibits P1501 and P1502 into evidence through Witness RM322.  These are

 3     156 and 158 pages long respectively, while, as noted on transcript

 4     page 11663, P1502 is the original form of P1501.

 5             On the 31st of May, the Chamber noted in court that only a few

 6     passages of the notebook were used with Witness RM322 and requested the

 7     Prosecution to select the pages on which it wished to rely upon.  The

 8     Prosecution replied that it intended to use the notebook with other

 9     witness -- with another witness as well, including Witness Butler.  The

10     Chamber then observed that it would wait and see how the notebook would

11     be used in the future, and you can find this on transcript page 11869.

12             So far, P1501 was used by the Prosecution in court with

13     Witness Salapura and Witness Butler.  It was also used by the Defence

14     with Witness RM318.  The Chamber now requests the Prosecution to clarify

15     which pages of the notebook it intends to rely upon, to redact P1501 and

16     P1502 accordingly, and upload new versions into e-court.  When the

17     Prosecution has done so, it should inform the Chamber and the Defence.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Marcus, we move on unless there's anything you'd

20     like to raise in relation to what I said before.

21             MS. MARCUS:  No, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the next item is dealing with some

23     conditionally admitted Rule 92 bis materials.

24             Some witnesses' evidence from the Chamber's decision on the 15th,

25     the 17th, and the 22nd Rule 92 bis motion was admitted on the condition

Page 18192

 1     that declarations and attestations be provided.  The Chamber has reviewed

 2     the relevant documentation and hereby confirms admission of P2446, P2451,

 3     P2452, P2455, P2465, and P2487.

 4             The next matter I would like to deal with is a decision by the

 5     Chamber in relation to protective measures for Witnesses RM029 and RM073.

 6             On the 6th of February, 2013, the Prosecution filed a motion in

 7     relation to Witness RM029 requesting the protective measures of face and

 8     voice distortion, pseudonym, and redaction of the witness's name and

 9     other potentially identifying information from the witness's statement.

10             On the same date, the Prosecution filed a motion in relation to

11     Witness RM073 requesting the protective measures of pseudonym, and

12     redaction of the witness's name and other potentially identifying

13     information from the witness's statement.

14             In relation to both witnesses, the Prosecution contends that

15     protective measures are necessary as the witnesses are fearful for their

16     safety in the event of their identity becoming known and further submits

17     that the granting of measures would not impact upon the accused's fair

18     trial rights with -- fair trial rights.

19             With regard to Witness RM029, the Prosecution also submits that

20     the witness resides in an area where certain of the crimes described in

21     the witness's statement were committed.

22             On the 20th of February, 2013, the Defence filed a response to

23     each of the above motions, arguing in relation to both that the

24     Prosecution requests are based on generic and vague fears rather than

25     real fears for the safety of the witnesses, and emphasising that the

Page 18193

 1     accused is entitled to a public trial.

 2             The Chamber refers to the applicable law set out in its "Decision

 3     on Prosecution motion for protective measures for Witness RM115," dated

 4     the 15th of August, 2012.

 5             At the outset, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has merely

 6     relied upon the generic information provided in the investigator's

 7     statements annexed to the motions without expanding on how the test for

 8     protective measures has been met for either witness.

 9             The Chamber notes that Witness RM029's evidence has been admitted

10     pursuant to Rule 92 bis and, therefore, the request for protective

11     measures, in so far as it relates to face and voice distortion, is moot.

12             As regards the remainder of the request regarding Witness RM029,

13     the Chamber considers that the witness provides mainly generic

14     information regarding detention conditions, and while he refers to one

15     alleged direct perpetrator in his statement, the witness was informed of

16     his name by other detainees.  Accordingly, there was an insufficient

17     basis to conclude that this evidence may antagonize persons residing in

18     the area where the witness lives.

19             With regard to Witness RM073, the Chamber notes that the witness

20     provides evidence regarding incidents which purportedly occurred while in

21     detention and identifies a number of alleged direct perpetrators.

22     However, the Chamber considers that it is unknown whether the alleged

23     direct perpetrators reside in the same area as the witness.  There is an

24     insufficient basis to conclude that this evidence may antagonize persons

25     residing in the area where the witness lives.

Page 18194

 1             Weighing the reasons provided in the motions against the right of

 2     the accused to a public trial, the Chamber considers that there is an

 3     insufficient basis to conclude that protective measures are justified for

 4     either witness, and, accordingly, denies the Prosecution's -- Prosecution

 5     motions.

 6             And this concludes the Chamber's decision and, as a result, the

 7     Chamber lifts the confidentiality of the exhibits admitted through these

 8     two exhibits in its decision of the 23rd of September, 2013.

 9             Next, I will deliver a decision on the admission of P1087.

10             On the 1st of March, 2013, the Prosecution tendered into evidence

11     with Witness Erin Gallagher the Srebrenica map book bearing Rule 65 ter

12     number 28747.

13             The Defence objected to the admission of portions of map book on

14     the grounds that the sources of information appearing in some of the maps

15     were not identified and that the exhibit could only be introduced as a

16     demonstrative exhibit through witnesses with personal factual knowledge

17     about its contents.  This can be found at transcript pages 9462 to 9463.

18             The Chamber marked the exhibit for identification as P1087.  The

19     parties reiterated their submissions on the admission of P1087 during the

20     housekeeping session of the 25th of July, 2013.

21             With respect to the requirements for admissibility into evidence

22     pursuant to Rule 89(C), the Chamber first notes that the exhibit contains

23     maps that the Prosecution submits relate to various VRS zones of

24     responsibility and several alleged crime sites in the Srebrenica area.

25     The Chamber also notes the evidence of Witness Gallagher in this regard.

Page 18195

 1             The Chamber finds, therefore, that the exhibit is relevant to

 2     Counts 2 through 8 of the indictment and has probative value for the

 3     purpose of admission into evidence.

 4             The Chamber considers that the Defence submissions on the sources

 5     and the purpose of the exhibit are matters that go to the weight the

 6     Chamber will ultimately give to the maps in light of all the evidence

 7     before it.  The Chamber takes this opportunity to emphasise, as it has

 8     done in relation to similar map collections which it has admitted into

 9     evidence, that it considers the map book mainly as a reference and the

10     Prosecution's markings and descriptions to be primarily illustrations of

11     the Prosecution's case which need to be proven by evidence.

12             For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber admits P1087 into

13     evidence.

14             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

15             Next item is a corrigendum.  A short corrigendum in relation to

16     the Chamber's decision on the 21st Rule 92 bis motion which was filed on

17     the 16th of October, 2013.

18             In the disposition, under (ii), Mihajlo Galic, point (a),

19     transcript pages 10625, column 22, and 10626, column 21, should be

20     separated by a dash and not by a comma.

21             Further, under (iii), Danko Gojkovic, point (c), the decision

22     should read transcript page 2894, line 3, instead of 728 -- 72894,

23     line 3.  Yes.  I started to misspeak, but then everything is now clear on

24     the record.

25             I move on and deliver the Chamber's decision on the Prosecution's

Page 18196

 1     request to add eight documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list.

 2             On the 20th of September, 2013, the Prosecution requested the

 3     addition of eight documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list.  These

 4     documents are related to Witness RM507.  The Chamber notes that the

 5     Defence has not opposed the addition.

 6             Having reviewed the documents, the Chamber is satisfied that it

 7     is in the interests of justice to add them -- to have them added to the

 8     exhibit list.  The Prosecution is hereby granted leave to add the

 9     documents to its exhibit list.

10             I move on to the next item which deals with outstanding issues

11     related to the testimony of Emir Turkusic.

12             I whether address several outstanding issues which arose during

13     the testimony of Emir Turkusic from the 27th to the 30th of August, 2013.

14             With regard to Exhibit P2043, the Prosecution was instructed to

15     check the English translation on pages 19 and following of the document

16     because some words are considered illegible, even though Mr. Lukic was

17     able to read them.  This can be found on transcript pages 15936 to 15937.

18             On transcript page 15946, the Defence was instructed to draw a

19     line with a certain angle on Exhibit D351.  The Defence is now instructed

20     to upload a new version of D351 containing the mentioned line, and the

21     Registry is already instructed to replace D351 with the new version of

22     D351 as soon as it is available.

23             With regard to D356, MFI'd, the parties were instructed to inform

24     the Chamber if they agree which excerpts of the rule-book and another

25     rule-book for 120-millimetre mortars should be tendered.  This can be

Page 18197

 1     found on transcript page 15943.

 2             Further, concerning D357, MFI'd, a map, the Defence was

 3     instructed to provide the Prosecution with transcript references where

 4     the witness testifies about the map so as to resume the discussion on

 5     admission.  This can be found on transcript page -- pages 15943 to 15945.

 6             The parties are instructed to comply with all these instructions

 7     within seven days and inform the Chamber when they have been done.

 8             I move onto my next item which deals with revised translations.

 9     I think I dealt with them already before the break, but we were still

10     waiting for the Defence's position in relation to MFI 2198.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, any report on 2198?  I should say P2198.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I will

13     proceed in the same order.

14             P52918 is a translation from the original French into English,

15     and we were to --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- if you wouldn't mind.  There seems to be --

17     there may be a problem.  I was talking about 2198, whereas you refer, as

18     it was translated to us, to P52918, which is at least a different number.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I believe I

20     said P2198.

21             And as far as our Defence is concerned, I kindly request some

22     more time for us to take a position because the original document is in

23     French, which we do not speak.

24             P1110, we got an English translation and have no objection to the

25     admission of this document.

Page 18198

 1              And we are still to take a position as regards document 28036.

 2     We have no complaint to that save for our general complaint to the

 3     admission of intercepts.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's deal with them separately.

 5             P2198, you're asking for more time.  How much more time would you

 6     need, Mr. Stojanovic?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The end of this week,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It took me more time to learn French, but if

10     you can do it within this week, Mr. Stojanovic, it's highly appreciated.

11             Then, Madam Registrar, for P1110, MFI'd, have you -- has a

12     revised English translation been uploaded?

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  It has been uploaded.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It has been uploaded.  You're hereby instructed to

16     replace the newly uploaded English translation -- no, to replace the old

17     English translation by the newly uploaded one.  And, once this is done,

18     P1110 is admitted into evidence.

19             Then we move to 65 ter 28036.  We do understand the remaining

20     objection ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.

23             Madam Registrar, would you please assign -- give us a number for

24     65 ter 28036.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28036 receives number P2535,

Page 18199

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P2535 is admitted into evidence.

 3             The next item I'd like to deal with is a corrigendum to the

 4     Chamber's decision on the 20th Rule 92 bis motion.

 5             On the 25th of September, 2013, the Chamber issued its decision

 6     on the Prosecution's 20th Rule 92 bis motion.  Therein, it instructed the

 7     Registry to change the status of evidence admitted through Witness RM027

 8     and RM704 from confidential to public unless the Prosecution would file

 9     motions for protective measures for these witnesses.

10             The Prosecution advised the Chamber that Witness RM704 was

11     granted protective measures in a prior case.  Accordingly, the Chamber

12     withdraws its instruction to the Registry to lift the status of the

13     witness's admitted evidence.

14             Regarding Witness RM027, the Prosecution advised the Chamber that

15     one associated exhibit, namely, Rule 65 ter 13375, has been placed under

16     seal in the Tadic and the Karadzic cases.  The Chamber requests the

17     Prosecution to provide further information within one week why this

18     exhibit should be kept confidential and defers its final decision on this

19     exhibit's status.  Until then, the exhibit remains under seal.

20             The last item on my agenda deals with the Chamber's statement on

21     the further scheduling of the case.

22             With all but one evidentiary motion by the Prosecution filed, the

23     Chamber would like to give the parties some impression of its current

24     scheduling expectations.

25             The Prosecution is expected to rest its case in November 2013.

Page 18200

 1     The Chamber may need some time to decide on all pending evidentiary

 2     motions so as to close the Prosecution's case.  The Chamber expects that

 3     the Prosecution's case be closed by January 2014.  Any Rule 98 bis

 4     submissions should be made soon thereafter, and the Defence should be

 5     ready to do so towards the end of January or early February.  In this

 6     respect, the Defence should inform the Chamber as soon as possible

 7     whether it, in fact, intends to bring a Rule 98 bis motion.  Should there

 8     be a need for a Defence case, the Defence should be ready to start its

 9     presentation of evidence around February or March 2014.  A Scheduling

10     Order with exact dates will follow in due course.

11             This was all the Chamber had on its agenda.  Any questions or any

12     further submissions?

13             MS. MARCUS:  Your Honour, I just wanted to inform the Chamber,

14     update the Chamber on two additional outstanding matters.

15             One relates to documents that were going to be tendered from the

16     bar table in relation to Witness Riedlmayer.  At page 17886, my colleague

17     Mr. Traldi informed the Chamber that he may have a brief bar table

18     submission depending upon what areas are challenged.  Mr. Traldi has, in

19     fact, approximately eight documents, and he is currently in discussion

20     with the Defence to see whether they could reach an agreement on -- on

21     those documents.  That's just to put that -- to inform the Chamber.

22             The other aspect -- the other item I wanted to mention to the

23     Chamber relates to Witness Jeremy Bowen.  There are some pending

24     documents; namely, his statement and the -- and the excerpts of his prior

25     transcript, which are MFI'd as P2515 and P2516, as well as eight

Page 18201

 1     associated exhibits which haven't yet been tendered.  So they remain with

 2     their 65 ter numbers.

 3             The Prosecution would -- will contact the Defence and will try to

 4     see if an agreement can be reached, and we will keep the Chamber informed

 5     of the update on that.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for these updates.  Nothing to decide at

 7     this moment for the Chamber, I see.  We'll hear from the parties soon.

 8             Any other matter?

 9             If not, we adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

10     Tuesday, the 22nd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

11     courtroom, I.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.55 a.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

14                           October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.