Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19496

 1                           Tuesday, 19 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at the 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted to raise a

12     preliminary matter.

13             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             First, I undertook last week to report to the Chamber the

15     Prosecution's position with respect to the recent Appeals Chamber

16     decision regarding adjudicated facts.  Later on today, the Prosecution

17     will file an application, so I won't go into too much detail now, other

18     than to note that the Prosecution will be seeking judiciary notice of a

19     number of facts reformulated to be consistent with the Appeals Chamber's

20     decision as well as to address some of the concerns raised by this

21     Trial Chamber in its original decision on some of those facts.  We will

22     also be re-calling investigator Barry Hogan.  That will be the only

23     witness that we would recall and we will recall him to deal with some of

24     the rejected or removed adjudicated facts that deal with the location of

25     the confrontation line.  We expect this testimony to be quite brief on --


Page 19497

 1     on this.

 2             Your Honour, I have one other matter.  I would ask to go into

 3     private session for that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

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Page 19498











11 Pages 19498-19499 redacted. Private session.
















Page 19500

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 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

12             Meanwhile, I use the time by addressing the Prosecution on the

13     following matter:  There has been some discussion about a transcription

14     error in Witness Celanovic's prior testimony which was admitted as P1451.

15     I refer to transcript page 11248.  In the meantime, the Popovic

16     transcript has been corrected by CLSS and this was filed in the Popovic

17     case on the 6th of November, 2013.  The Prosecution is hereby instructed

18     to upload a new version of P1451, in line with CLSS's revision, within

19     one week, and the Registry is already instructed to make the necessary

20     replacement once uploaded.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Brown.

23             Mr. Brown, before we resume, I would like to remind you that

24     you're still bound by the some declaration you've given yesterday at the

25     beginning of your testimony.


Page 19501

 1                           WITNESS:  EWAN McGREGOR BROWN [Resumed]

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi will now continue his examination.

 4             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honour, and good morning.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   Good morning, sir.

 9        Q.   I want to turn now to the 16th Assembly Session.

10             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have Exhibit P431, please.

11        Q.   In your report, you talk about the strategic objectives

12     Mr. Karadzic lays out at this session.  Based on your review of

13     documents, were similar objectives being pursued before the 12th of May?

14        A.   Yes.  I -- I believe the strategic objectives as a whole are

15     about identifying territory that the Bosnian Serbs deemed as theirs, and

16     I don't know -- I think in my report, I don't argue that the strategic

17     goals were, in essence, a start point.  Territory had already been taken

18     control of in some areas prior to this assembly session.

19        Q.   And what do you see as the importance of the discussion of the

20     objectives at this session?

21        A.   I think when I was writing my report at the time, there were some

22     comments in some of the military documents that I was seeing, which were

23     talking about goals and objectives of the Serbian people.  And what I

24     wanted to try and do was find out further what those were, because I felt

25     that it was usual that militaries work to some degree or some form of

Page 19502

 1     political guidance, unless it's a military dictatorship, I guess, so that

 2     was the background to my interest in this, and this is why I looked at

 3     the assembly session.  And it seemed to me that at the very time the VRS

 4     was being established formally at this assembly session that clearly

 5     articulated political goals were being disseminated by the political

 6     leadership to the military ensuring that everybody, including the

 7     civilians who were present but also the new commander of the VRS and

 8     other military figures who were present there, were aware of the

 9     political objectives of the Bosnian Serbs, and I believe that strategic

10     goals crystallised those.

11        Q.   You described General Mladic as having sounded a cautionary note

12     about the objectives at this session, and that's beginning at

13     paragraph 1.45 of your Krajina report.  Can you describe for the Chamber

14     why you see his remarks that way?

15        A.   I think when, in particular, in relation to strategic goal number

16     1, to the issue of separation, when Karadzic makes mention of that and

17     also the delegates themselves make mention and some of them talk very

18     specifically about resettlement or the moving of people, or the moving of

19     non-Serbs has already happened, for example, in Krupe, it seemed that

20     some of his comments seemed to articulate that this policy of moving

21     peoples around was a dangerous one.  And he himself talks about people

22     are not pawns to move around.  People sive -- you can't sive people,

23     where some will stay and others will leave, and he uses the phrase

24     genocide, and that the political leadership will have to explain this if

25     it becomes known.  And it seems to stand out as being something of a

Page 19503

 1     warning or a cautionary note that this is what is the reality of what is

 2     going to happen and also what is already happened in some municipalities

 3     prior to this assembly session.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, what we have in front of us on our

 5     screen that seems that the English version and the B/C/S version do not

 6     match, at least not the first page.  Because in the English, although it

 7     seems to be also related to the 16th Session held on the 12th of May, it

 8     starts in a totally different way.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, we'll check that over the break.  I

10     think it's possible that one is the minutes and one is the transcript.

11     But we'll -- we'll check.  Perhaps even before the break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that seems to be the case from what I

13     understand.  Let's proceed for the time being.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak into the

15     microphones, please.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.

17             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 34 in the English; I

18     believe page 33 in the B/C/S --

19        Q.   We're in part of General Mladic's speech here, and the transcript

20     records him saying:

21             "Let us not only put our minds into what we are doing.  But let

22     us also" --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where are you reading, Mr. Traldi?

24             MR. TRALDI:  It will be in the middle of the page, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Give us time.

Page 19504

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Your Honour.

 2             In the English on the right, Your Honour, there's a sentence --

 3     there's line that starts:

 4             "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serbian Republic of

 5     Krajina."

 6             I'm reading two lines below that.  It's about maybe a quarter of

 7     the way down the page.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   General Mladic says:

11             "Let us not only put our minds into what we are doing.  But let

12     us also speak" -- sorry, "think thoroughly about it and let us be

13     cautious about when to keep mum.  No, the thing that we are doing needs

14     to be guarded as our deepest secret."

15             You refer to this language in paragraph 1.48 of your Krajina

16     report.  What importance do you ascribe to this language?

17        A.   Well, I think General Mladic here is bearing in mind his previous

18     comment.  He -- he -- to make it publicly known that this issue of

19     separation, in particular, or marking out the boundaries, would be, if it

20     was publicly known, very difficult for the Bosnian Serbs.  And here what

21     he is saying is, We must keep this to ourselves, we must make our goals

22     appealing externally, but people need to read between the lines about

23     what it really means.

24        Q.   In the same session -- if we could go to page 47 of the English

25     and 43 of the B/C/S.  We are towards the top of the page in a speech by

Page 19505

 1     Mr. Krajisnik, and he says, beginning in the first line on the English:

 2             "We are at war, and it will be possible to solve this thing with

 3     the Muslims and Croats only by war.  And the politics will be

 4     instrumental in bringing it to an end."

 5             He continues about three lines, four lines later:

 6             "Please, if we acquire the territories which we agree on and have

 7     conceived of today, plus the corridor we get up there, we will have done,

 8     this generation will have done so much for the Serbian people that this

 9     debt will be impossible to repay.  What will happen in reality, we...

10     leave that to time, but it will be easier to achieve this now, once we

11     establish the Serbian army which could have been done earlier."

12             Do you relate this comment to the relationship between the VRS

13     and the strategic objectives?

14        A.   Yes, very much so.  I think by this time it's clear that they

15     view -- the establishment of the army is going to be used in order to

16     fulfil the goals stated, and that, indeed, is what I would argue

17     happened.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 02677, please.

19        Q.   This is a document from the 1st Partizan Brigade dated

20     14 May 1992.

21             Were those strategic objectives also communicated to VRS officers

22     who were not in attendance at the 16th Assembly?

23        A.   Yes, I think this is a document that would identify that this is

24     the case.

25        Q.   And let's look at some of the key features of this document now.

Page 19506

 1             Starting on page 1 in both languages this refers in part to the

 2     transformation of the JNA - we see that at point 2 - and messages from

 3     the meeting of the armed forces of Serbian Krajina and the

 4     Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Banja Luka on

 5     12 May 1992 at point 3.

 6             Do you relate to that the assembly session that we just looked

 7     at?

 8        A.   Yes, very much so.  This -- this is the agenda, and -- and it

 9     clearly identifies the session two days before this.  This is a meeting

10     in a subordinate formation of the corps.  The 30th Division was a

11     subordinate unit of the 1st Krajina Corps.  And it's commander was

12     Stanislav Galic, who subsequently became the corps commander in the

13     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps a bit later that year.  So here the -- that

14     officer, Colonel Branko Basara, who was a brigade commander who we talked

15     about yesterday from the 6th Brigade, and others are meeting with

16     municipal leaders in the zone of the division discussing the issues that

17     come from the assembly session a few days before this.

18        Q.   If we turn to page 2, it reflects Colonel Galic briefing the

19     group about security conditions in various municipalities.  And then on

20     page 3 in the English and the B/C/S, in the third paragraph at the top,

21     refers to the president of the Mrkonjic Grad Srpska Opstina presenting

22     the conclusions from the meeting held in Banja Luka which it describes as

23     strategic goals formulated at the meeting in Banja Luka.  Do you have any

24     comment on the substance of this meeting?

25        A.   I think here they're discussing the very issues that were

Page 19507

 1     referenced at the assembly session.  There was some discussion in that

 2     session about the army not taking so much territory.  It can defend it,

 3     that's referenced here, and then they articulate the six goals that were

 4     discussed by or presented by Radovan Karadzic.  So, in essence, I think

 5     this is dissemination the very same message that was -- that was

 6     articulated at assembly session down military chain and also to local

 7     municipal bodies.

 8             There are a couple of other issues of this document that have

 9     some interest.  The previous page, for example, in relation to Kljuc, it

10     is also talking about military units that are deploying there.  So

11     already at this stage you have units of the corps conducting operations

12     to secure that territory, for example.  But, in essence, I think the

13     importance of the document is that the message of the

14     16th Assembly Session is being disseminated down at low level.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 02677 as the next

16     public Prosecution exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02677 receives number P2867,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P2867 is admitted.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Could we next have P2412, marked for identification.

22     It's a Sanski Most Crisis Staff document dated the 12th of May.

23        Q.   Sir, in your report, you describe some of the first VRS

24     operations in late May 1992 in the ARK and I want to go through the

25     lead-up to those operations briefly.  As this comes up, can you describe

Page 19508

 1     for the Chamber the patterns you saw in how those operations were

 2     conducted?

 3        A.   I believe it's -- there's quite a lot of detail, and some of

 4     that, I hope, is contained in the report.  But in summary, I think there

 5     were a number of similar patterns in a number of those municipalities,

 6     including Sanski Most.  Often included decisions or declarations by the

 7     local Crisis Staff, the ARK Crisis Staff, to initiate operations by the

 8     police to surrender illegally held weapons.  Deadlines for those

 9     surrender.  Meetings of Crisis Staffs, which included military, police,

10     and political representatives.  Establishing plans to conduct operations

11     in those municipalities.  Deployments of units, military units and TO

12     units and attacks on predominantly -- or exclusively, as I saw from the

13     document, non-Serb villages, which would then result in large numbers of

14     detainees.

15        Q.   I'm going to take you through three documents now and then ask

16     you some questions after we've seen all three.

17             In this first document, it reflects at point 4 on page 1 in both

18     languages that Nedjeljko Rasula and Nedo Anicic are directed to contact

19     the president of the assembly of the autonomous region concerning the

20     question of disarming paramilitary formations.

21             Lower down on point 9, now on page 3 in the B/C/S, it opines that

22     the question of disarming paramilitary formations has to be approached

23     comprehensively and says to co-ordinate with the Prijedor and Kljuc

24     municipalities.

25             So that's the first document.

Page 19509

 1             MR. TRALDI:  If we could please have 65 ter 06914.  This is a

 2     document from the ARK Crisis Staff issued 14th of May, 1992.

 3        Q.   Under point 1, this document directs:

 4             "The State Security Service of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

 5     shall consistently carry out the decision of the Crisis Staff of the

 6     Autonomous Region of Krajina on the disarming of paramilitary units and

 7     individuals who are illegally in possession of weapons and ammunition."

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Could we turn now to 65 ter 16919 [Realtime

 9     transcript read in error "16916"], please.  This is an instruction from

10     CSB Banja Luka issued the same day.  As it comes up, I note perhaps my

11     speed was off again, but I was recorded to say "16916" and intended

12     "16919."  And could we turn to the next page, please.

13        Q.   This document is communicated to several different chiefs and to

14     the Ministry of the Interior for information.  And it provides several

15     directions for public security stations which must undertake, in part,

16     making concrete plans that include operational findings about illegally

17     owned weapons, the time and place of measures to be taken against groups

18     and individuals.

19             And it says, just below that, the second point from the bottom:

20             "This actively can only be implemented by authorised officials

21     and the military police of the Banja Luka Corps."

22             Do you see these three documents as related?

23        A.   Yes, I think they were -- they were part of a chain of documents,

24     in fact, which I think is explained further in my report, emanating

25     initially from the ARK initially requesting the police to start this

Page 19510

 1     planning process and that involved later an engagement of the military in

 2     those activities and plans too.

 3        Q.   When the documents discuss disarming paramilitaries, who do they

 4     mean?

 5        A.   The documents themselves at face value don't make any

 6     differentiation about who they are meaning.  But, in reality, as events

 7     panned out on the ground, the operations that were conducted on the back

 8     of these decisions from the municipalities I saw were against non-Serb

 9     villages.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender those three documents, one at

11     a time.  First, P2412, MFI.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar --

13             I do remember that it was part of a series and which was MFI'd,

14     to say the least, I think it was on the 25th of September.  But the exact

15     reasons, I don't remember why it was not.

16             MR. TRALDI:  It's an associated exhibit pending a decision of the

17     Chamber.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Mr. Lukic, no objections.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             Yes, we have the number already.  So, therefore, P2412 is

22     admitted into evidence.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Next, 65 ter 06914.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

25             Madam Registrar.

Page 19511

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06914 receives number P2868,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P2868 is admitted.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And third, Your Honour, 65 ter 16919.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16919 receives number P2869,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P2869 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that we have 65 ter 07992.  This is a

10     5th Corps document issued the same day.

11        Q.   What we see here, sir, is described just below the heading to the

12     commander of the Prijedor region as a request for information on the

13     disposition of units from the 5th Corps to the Prijedor region.

14             What importance do you ascribe to this document?

15        A.   This document has been sent by General Talic to

16     Colonel Vladimir Arsic, who was the commander of the Prijedor region as

17     well as the commander of the 43 Motorised Brigade, and he is requesting

18     information from him about his own troop strength and locations of the

19     brigades and units in that zone but also requesting the disposition of

20     paramilitaries or the estimation of paramilitaries and paramilitary

21     strength in his zone.  And he identifies the zone in paragraph 1.  The

22     zone is, in essence, a circle.  If you put Prijedor in the centre, it's a

23     curricular area between -- halfway between Banja Luka and Prijedor and up

24     to Novi.

25        Q.   Do you see it as connected with the disarmament orders we've just

Page 19512

 1     seen?

 2        A.   Yes.  I think this is General Talic trying to prepare the brigade

 3     and to get a -- an idea from his subordinate in preparation for

 4     operations that were conducted there a little later.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 07125, please.

 6             While it comes up, I'd tender 65 ter 07992.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 07992 receives number P2870,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   And this document, when it comes up, will be the minutes of the

13     Prijedor Council for National Defence dated 15 May.

14             And we see at the top of the first page a list of attendees,

15     including Colonel Arsic as well as Pero Colic and Radmilo Zeljaja.  Are

16     those also military officers?

17        A.   Yes, they are, sir.  Pero Colic was the commander of the

18     5th Kozara Brigade, and Zeljaja was Colonel Arsic's deputy.

19        Q.   Let's turn to page 2.

20             At the bottom of this page, it says:

21             "The public security station in concert with the army command

22     should draft the plan of disarmament ..."

23             Do you relate this to the previous documents?

24        A.   Yes, I think they're all connected and the Crisis Staff was the

25     form in which the various organisations could co-ordinate that.

Page 19513

 1        Q.   At point 3, this reflects the Prijedor Crisis Staff's decision

 2     to:

 3             "Start the transformation of both TO Staffs and form a unified

 4     command for control and command of all the units formed in the territory

 5     of the municipality."

 6             Do you have any comment on that?

 7        A.   Yes.  One of the -- the issues - I actually think it was

 8     referenced at the 16th Assembly Session - was that the

 9     Territorial Defence should be -- should be integrated into the new VRS

10     and the TO should come under the command of the VRS.  And I believe that

11     this is probably a reflection of that.

12             The TO Staffs did in the 1st Krajina Corps zone -- they were --

13     they were integrated into the corps and generally became light infantry

14     brigades.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 07125.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  As -- as I could see briefly, I think we saw the

18     misrepresentation of this document.  It's not Crisis Staff document.

19     It's some other body from Prijedor.  So all this testimony is wrong.

20     It's dealt as a document from the Crisis Staff.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I think I've described it myself in -- in --

23     consistent with what was on page 1, Your Honour.

24        Q.   But just, Mr. Brown, in a -- related to your conclusion that the

25     Crisis Staff was involved in this document, we see on the list of

Page 19514

 1     attendees Milomir Stakic.  Who was that?

 2        A.   He was the president of the Crisis Staff, Prijedor.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I renew my question to tendered the

 4     document.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The witness can say was Mr. Stakic member of any

 6     other body.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you answer that question.

 8             THE WITNESS:  I can't, Your Honour.  No, sir.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, whatever the description of the document is, it

10     remains that -- let's have a look.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go back to the first page --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It says --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- in both.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- minutes of the fourth meeting of the Council for

15     National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly.  That is how it is

16     described.  And I think that's the -- and then it says who attended.  And

17     the agenda contained at least elements which refer to the Crisis Staff;

18     for example, agenda item 1:  Decision on the organisation and functioning

19     of the Crisis Staff.

20             Mr. Lukic, have the -- has the identity of the document been

21     sufficiently clarified to lift your objection or?

22             MR. LUKIC:  I know at this moment Crisis Staff did not exist at

23     this moment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- so whether --

Page 19515

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I saw this document before.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question is, some questions were put, which

 4     were rather about the substance than about the quality of the -- what the

 5     meeting was about --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously the witness does not have any understanding

 7     about this body and the role of Mr. Stakic in this body.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, the witness described that -- what this

10     document directs was, in fact, carried out and its relationship to other

11     pieces of evidence that have been admitted.  I'd submit that that's

12     sufficient.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put a question to you, Mr. Brown.

15             What is your understanding of this body, Council for

16     National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly?  What was the

17     function of this body?

18             THE WITNESS:  It's been some time, sir, since I looked in detail

19     at the activities within Prijedor municipality in detail.  I did compile

20     a report early on whilst I was at the ICTY on this.  I could refer to

21     that maybe in the break and have a look.  But I would surmise that this

22     is a Defence Council -- local municipal Defence Council body that brings

23     together security personnel and key civilian personnel on issues relating

24     to security and defence matters.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You see here, on the top of the page, that

Page 19516

 1     Mr. Stakic is referred to as president of the council who chaired the

 2     meeting.

 3             Earlier you said that Mr. Stakic was head of the Crisis Staff; is

 4     that correct?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I am -- I believe he was head of the Crisis Staff

 6     in Prijedor, sir.  He may have been concurrently the head, and, it would

 7     seem from this document, that he was concurrently president of this

 8     National Defence Council.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic suggested that this moment,

10     15th of May, 1992, the Crisis Staff was not set up yet.

11             What is your understanding about it?

12             THE WITNESS:  Again, I would have to go back to my Prijedor

13     report, but I believe the Crisis Staff was functioning by this time.  But

14     if Mr. Lukic has other documents that could demonstrate that that wasn't

15     the case, I'd be happy to look at them.

16             But it's on my understanding that the Crisis Staff was

17     established then.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you look at the agenda, item 1 is decision on

19     the organisation and functioning of the Crisis Staff.

20             How do you interpret this?

21             THE WITNESS:  Clearly have been some discussion about -- about

22     the establishment of this Crisis Staff.  Whether it was established on

23     this day, I don't know.  But it isn't an area that I have done a lot of

24     work in recently, so I'd have to reserve judgement.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 19517

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  The document will be

 3     admitted under -- into evidence.  The number would be, Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 07125 receives number P2871,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P2871 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, I've checked the transcript, and I

 8     should apologise.  It appears at page 17, line 5, I misspoke and used the

 9     term Crisis Staff incorrectly.  And that may have led to the confusion.

10     And I -- my error, I think has been clarified by the Chamber, but I

11     thought I should apologise on record.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The document at least mentions the

13     organisation and functioning of the Crisis Staff and decisions were

14     adopted.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The draft was adopted for that.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Brown, I'm now going to turn to the creation of the VRS a few

20     days later and the mobilisation process.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 03688, the document dated

22     20 May 1992 and signed by Mr. Karadzic.

23        Q.   Sir, can you tell us the importance of this document.

24        A.   Mobilisation -- even though the VRS was formally established on

25     the 12th, there had been a lot of discussion at the 16th Assembly Session

Page 19518

 1     that there needed to be mobilisation into the army.  It notes in the

 2     first paragraph that the Presidency had issued a mobilisation and the

 3     timing of this is probably of interest, because the 19th, 20th, was when

 4     the JNA were formally meant to withdraw from Bosnia.  So even though

 5     there had been discussions on the 12th of May about mobilising and the

 6     formation of the army, it most likely would seem that they delayed this

 7     instruction because they didn't want to look like they were somehow

 8     disrupting this technical withdrawal of the JNA on the 19th, 20th.  So

 9     this is probably why it came out on this day, in essence, immediately

10     after the JNA was technically meant to withdraw from Bosnia.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 03688.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

13             Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03688 receives number P2872,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 28410, please.  This is a

18     document from the 1st Krajina Corps dated 21 May 1992.

19        Q.   And here at the beginning, it refers to the decision of the

20     Presidency initiating a general mobilisation.

21             What importance do you ascribe to that?

22        A.   Yes, this is General Talic's instructions to his corps about

23     mobilisation and it's reacting to the Presidency decision, so he is

24     clearly responding to that tasking chain.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 2 of the English, please, still

Page 19519

 1     page 1 of the B/C/S.  In document at point 1, directs subordinate units

 2     to:

 3             "Immediately establish direct contact with municipal and military

 4     and territorial organs on the ground offering expert and materiel support

 5     for the mobilisation process."

 6             I'd refer Your Honours to point 8 as well.

 7        Q.   Is this the point that you were referring to yesterday, or one of

 8     them, where General Talic emphasises co-operation with the Bosnian Serb

 9     authorities?

10        A.   Yes.  And he references this in a couple of locations in this

11     particular document.  Co-operation was already occurring, and I think

12     what he is doing here is re-emphasising the importance of this.

13        Q.   Turning to point 6, still on page 2 in the English and also in

14     the B/C/S now, it says:

15             "Explain to conscripts as they arrive the goals of our struggle

16     and brief them on their duties and rights.  Do not enlist waverers or

17     suspicious persons in the units."

18             What do you take from this?

19        A.   I think here he's emphasising that individuals who come into his

20     corps have to have the goals explained to them in order for them to

21     understand why they will be fighting.  And I would link this to the goals

22     that were articulated in the assembly session a few days prior to this.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered that document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, if -- if -- is it visible from this

Page 19520

 1     document what the gentleman just said that he connects it with the goals?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a different matter.  The testimony of the

 3     witness should be clearly distinguished from the document which is before

 4     us, because wrong testimony is not, as far as I am aware of, is not a

 5     reason for non-admission.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I don't object to the document.  Only I wanted maybe

 7     clarification --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In cross-examination you -- of course you can ask

 9     the witness how he possibly could have deduced from this document what

10     you consider to be a wrong conclusion.  That's no problem.

11             Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 28410 receives number P2873,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P2873 is admitted.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 05978.  It's another

16     1st Krajina Corps document issued the same day.

17        Q.   On page 1 of the English and B/C/S, this document reports that,

18     "A major transformation of the army has taken place," refers to the

19     formation of an army of the Serbian Republic of BH towards the top of

20     page 1.

21             Turning to page 2 of the English, I want to ask you about two

22     points on this page.  First, the document reads at the top:

23             "The constituent Serbian people who live on around 65 per cent of

24     the area and represent more than 35 per cent of the population of BH must

25     struggle for complete separation from the Muslim and Croatian peoples

Page 19521

 1     and" --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, whenever you are reading your speed of

 4     speech goes up.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I'll try and be more careful about that, Your

 6     Honour, and I apologise.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And another advice:  You should always indicate

 8     where this can be found in the B/C/S version.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  In -- this is in point 2, so it's

10     toward -- at the very bottom of the first page you can see the

11     65 per cent [B/C/S spoken] 35 per cent.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear.

13             MR. TRALDI:  My pronunciation is quite terrible but hopefully

14     that is sufficient to direct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In the last five lines we find the reference to 35

16     and 65 per cent.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, having located the language, what importance do you ascribe

19     to it?

20        A.   This is a document that's written by General Talic's commander --

21     assistant commander for morale and legal affairs, Colonel Vukelic,

22     Milutin Vukelic, and it's a summary document from him to be send down to

23     the units identifying the situation as they are, and it clearly

24     identifies that it would seem to echo the issue of separation --

25     separation from communities and forming their own state which of course

Page 19522

 1     was the core of Karadzic's goals in -- although Karadzic doesn't mention

 2     the percentages, the separation of communities and forming their own

 3     state and if would seem to echo those -- those objectives.

 4        Q.   Shortly thereafter, below point 3 on page 2 of the B/C/S, the

 5     document reads:

 6             "The Main Staff has been appointed and

 7     Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic, who has commanded large formations on

 8     the Knin front very successfully since the start of this war, has been

 9     appointed commander.

10             "All other major elements of unified organisation and command and

11     control have been set up."

12             Is all of that consistent with the expert conclusions you're able

13     to draw based on your review of VRS documents?

14        A.   Yes.  General Mladic had been appointed and the Main Staff was

15     functioning, and, at this time corps reports were going up to the

16     Main Staff which seemed to agree with the statement here that the -- that

17     the army was -- was up and running.

18        Q.   And in your report, do you also refer to direction as early as

19     this time coming down from the Main Staff to the corps?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I note it's time for the break.  I'd

22     tendered this document as a public.

23             THE WITNESS:  If I could, I would just like to add at the very

24     end of this document Colonel Vukelic states that the contents of this

25     document should be thrashed out or disseminated to soldiers.  So it isn't

Page 19523

 1     just an internal document for the staff, that it is meant to be

 2     disseminated down to the lower levels.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05978 receives number P2874,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 8             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Brown.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, I put on the record.  The Chamber puts on

11     the public record that in its decision filed confidential on the

12     14th of November, 2013, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's 33rd

13     Rule 92 bis motion and admitted the evidence of Witness RM275 pursuant to

14     Rule 92 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

15             We take a break.  We'll come back at five minutes to 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  As he's coming in, I

22     should apologise for a lack of precision in my estimate.  I think it may

23     be an additional 12- to 1800 seconds beyond what I had initially

24     estimated.  I apologise to the Chamber for the, again, lack of precision.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you for that.  And compared to what?  To

Page 19524

 1     your initial assessment or to your later assessments?  I mean, in minutes

 2     what would it be and how much still would you need.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. TRALDI:  For the -- the most practical way to say it,

 5     Your Honour, is that it will be this session and perhaps the beginning,

 6     15 minutes or so, of the next.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's appreciated.

 8             Please be seated, Mr. Brown.

 9             You may proceed.  The clock is ticking, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'm very conscious of that, Mr. President.

11             Could we, please, have Exhibit P247.

12        Q.   And I'm going to turn now, Mr. Brown, to a very brief discussion

13     of how these disarmament operations were carried out.

14             This is a 1st Krajina Corps report from 27 May 1992, and we see

15     it's titled:  "Report on elimination of Green Berets in wider area of

16     Kozarac village."  And it notes at point 1 the dates of the conflict.

17     Notes the total strength of the Green Berets at point 3.  It was 1500 to

18     2.000 men without heavy weapons.  And then notes the results on point 4.

19             Do you have any comment on this document?

20        A.   This would just seem to be a summary of what had happened, in

21     particular, in the brigade 43rd, 343rd brigade that they had been very

22     quickly successful in their operations in that area.  It follows on in a

23     way from the disarmament plans, but it identifies that they were

24     successful and they had relatively few casualties and that a large number

25     of people were now prisoners.

Page 19525

 1        Q.   You mentioned both the military and the police in describing who

 2     was to carry out those operations.  I have two questions about that.

 3             First, on the basis of the documents you reviewed, could you

 4     conclude what role the military had in the operations?

 5        A.   The military had the primary role in terms of the combat

 6     operations in these areas.

 7             You should also note in this document that the Prijedor Brigade

 8     is using heavy weapons, Howitzer, artillery, and tanks.

 9        Q.   And the Chamber has received a great deal of evidence about these

10     operations, so for now I will just move to asking you if you could

11     characterise the reporting from the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff

12     about the conduct of these operations.

13        A.   Well, they sent daily combat reports, as I discussed yesterday.

14     Usually these would report that the territory -- operations that were

15     ongoing, they would invariably report that the territory was being

16     secured.  Often these operations lasted a relatively short space of time

17     but they were reported up to the Main Staff in daily combat reports.

18        Q.   I'm going to show you now two documents related to the end of

19     these operations.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 02840.

21        Q.   This is another 1st Krajina Corps document from a few days later

22     sent to the Main Staff.  And, in this document, right above point 2 in

23     both languages I would just point you to the description that says:

24             "Muslim and Croatian families are stopping at nothing to find

25     ways of moving out of the areas affected by the war."

Page 19526

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 02838, please.

 2             I think we have it in the B/C/S but not yet in the English.

 3             In the third paragraph of page 1 in both languages, the

 4     1st Krajina Corps notes:

 5             "A portion of the Muslim and Croatian population is moving out,

 6     and the region of Bosnian Krajina" --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You're reading, Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   "... has issued a decision to facilitate such departures,

10     providing that the Serbs from Central Bosnia and places with

11     predominantly Muslim and Croatian populations were also allowed to move

12     out.  Those departing will not be allowed to return."

13             Do you have any comment on these two documents?

14        A.   Well, it's clear that the 1st Krajina Corps know that large

15     numbers of Muslims and Croats are -- are leaving.  It, to me, cuts to

16     this issue of separation.  This document was also written by

17     Milutin Vukelic as well from the corps.  And it would seem that the issue

18     of separation and the movement out of populations is -- is -- is -- is

19     being undertaken in those areas at this time.

20        Q.   And based on the previous documents we've reviewed today, and

21     other documents you've reviewed, two of the other consequences for the

22     local population that we've seen on the screen are killings and captures.

23     In your view, was the Main Staff also being informed and the

24     1st Krajina Corps also aware of those consequences?

25        A.   Yes.  There -- there are references in relation to killings.

Page 19527

 1     There are some references in my report to specific 1st Krajina Corps

 2     documents that note killings and I cite those.  There are -- are a number

 3     of references that large numbers of individuals are being placed in

 4     detention camps and that is also being reported in -- in their daily

 5     combat reports.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tendered these last two documents.

 7     02838 first.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P2875, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P2875 is admitted.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And P -- and, sorry, 02840.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02840 receives number P2876,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P2876 is admitted.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have Exhibit P353, page 38 in the

17     English and 37 in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   As this comes up, sir, you've just testified that, at this time,

19     the Main Staff had received reports of the expulsions from the ARK, the

20     prisoners taken by the 1st Krajina Corps, and the capture of very large

21     numbers of non-Serbs.

22             What was the next primary VRS operation?

23        A.   For the 1st Krajina Corps?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   They secured territory around this late May/early June period and

Page 19528

 1     the big key operation they were involved in, in the middle of June was

 2     Operation Corridor.

 3        Q.   I want to explore the genesis of that operation to some degree

 4     now.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have, please, page 38 in the English.  And

 6     here we see the beginning of a meeting with the leadership of the Serbian

 7     republic.

 8             Could we turn to the bottom of page 41 in both languages.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, may I take it that on the previous pages

10     we would find the date on which this meeting was held?

11             MR. TRALDI:  I -- yes, Your Honour, I apologise.  And I believe

12     it's 31 May, but it's on the previous pages.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And pages 39 and 40 are a continuation of the same

15     meeting.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it, Mr. Lukic, that if there's any

17     disagreement there, that you would point at it.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   At the bottom of this page, sir, in both languages,

21     General Mladic records:

22             "If there is response to mobilisation into the 1st Krajina Corps

23     then we clear the Posavina of Croats."

24             If we turn to the next page in both languages, please.

25             Just above the middle of the page and just above, Your Honour,

Page 19529

 1     you can see the date there, 1 June 1992.  So this is the conclusion of

 2     the meeting on the previous day.

 3             General Mladic writes:

 4             "We must have corridor in the Posavina; part of Sarajevo;

 5     operations group at the Drina."

 6             Now to which strategic objectives do those relate?

 7        A.   Strategic objective 2 was the corridor in the Posavina, and

 8     strategic objective 5 was to divide or separate parts of Sarajevo.  So it

 9     refers directly to these.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P474, page 2 in English and B/C/S.

11     This is going to be directive 1 coming up.

12        Q.   And I'll ask, as it does, do you relate these notes to what you

13     saw in directive 1?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.  There was a sequence of events, I think,

15     emanating from this meeting on the 31st.  There's also a comment in that

16     meeting as, Are the corps commanders coming to the meeting on Wednesday.

17     Wednesday being the 3rd of June.  The day after this meeting on the 31st,

18     the VRS send out instruction to all corps commanders to come to a meeting

19     on the 3rd of June, in which they're to bring a map with their corps

20     areas and discuss issues relating to their corps.  That document is cited

21     in my report.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours just for the record, I believe

23     Mr. Brown's describing Exhibit D00098.

24             So let's turn to page 2 of the English.  And if we could still

25     have the bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S, I apologise.

Page 19530

 1             First, the goals are described:

 2             "(a) secure parts of Sarajevo with a majority Serbian population

 3     to 'ocistiti,' the wider area of Sarajevo airport and 'ocistiti,' its

 4     wider area of remaining groups and of individuals belonging to the

 5     enemy."

 6             Under point(b), now on page 2 in the B/C/S, this document directs

 7     that the VRS:

 8             "Ensure contact between Semberija and Bosnian Krajina."

 9             Do you relate these to the notebook entries we just reviewed?

10        A.   Yes, I very much do.  I think there was the meeting on the 31st,

11     meeting of the corps commanders.  Concurrently with this meeting there

12     was a meeting of the senior leadership on the same day, and it's clear

13     that what fell from those discussions and meetings was this operative

14     directive, and the contents of this directive are predominantly about

15     Sarajevo, securing parts of Sarajevo of a majority population, and

16     securing the corridor area.

17        Q.   Turning to page 3, it tasks the 1st Krajina Corps there in the

18     middle of the page to, inter alia, implement offensive actions along the

19     main direction Derventa, Modrica, and Doboj, Podnovlje.

20             Do you see that language?

21        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 09841.  This is an order issued

23     by the 1st Krajina Corps shortly thereafter.  I'll be asking for page 5

24     in both English and B/C/S.

25        Q.   And, here, we see the 1 KK describing its tasks which include, in

Page 19531

 1     part, offensive operations using a portion of their forces along the

 2     general axes Derventa-Modrica and Doboj-Podnovlje.  Do you relate that

 3     language to the directive we've just seen?

 4        A.   Yes, it's almost a direct lift, and it seems that General Talic

 5     has simply taken the instructions he was given in the directive, written

 6     his own instructions and passed those down to the corps.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we turn back to page 4 in both languages.

 8        Q.   In that first paragraph after the word "enemy," or "neprijatelj,"

 9     it says in the third line:

10             "Arming of Muslim and Croatian population has already been

11     carried out and they can spring into action at the required moment.  All

12     capable of bearing arms are military personnel and they will not refrain

13     from using all available weapons."

14             Do you have any comment on this language?

15        A.   I think General Talic here is -- is setting out quite an

16     aggressive tone that he believes that anybody who can carry weapons is --

17     is -- is -- is potentially an enemy.  He is not differentiating

18     particularly between those who may be armed or part of an armed

19     organisation, but he is characterising everyone who is capable of

20     carrying weapons as a potential enemy.

21             And this is the kind of command climate or instruction that he is

22     disseminating down to his units.  It is not really differentiating at

23     all.

24        Q.   And is that consistent with what you saw the 1st Krajina Corps

25     and other Bosnian Serb forces doing in the Autonomous Region of Krajina

Page 19532

 1     when you reviewed the documents?

 2        A.   I -- I didn't see too much of a differentiation in the corps, and

 3     I know that from, for example, camp documents, the people that they ended

 4     up capturing, they would capture people who were not members of the

 5     military.  So this differentiation I did not think was taken particularly

 6     heavily and ...

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered that document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09841 receives number P2877,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P2877 is admitted.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 9837.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Traldi kindly speak closer to the

14     microphone, please.  Thank you.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Now we see both General Mladic and General Talic's names on this

17     map.  What does that signify?

18        A.   It would signify that this was a formal operation that the

19     Main Staff and General Mladic agreed, and clearly it relates to his

20     directive and the fact that both signatures are on it would indicate that

21     there was a commonality of view on how this operation was to be

22     conducted.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you, do you really see the signature or

24     just the name?

25             THE WITNESS:  It's just the block, sir.

Page 19533

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check.  Is there an English translation

 4     for the words.  Yes, there is.  Because we see the -- yes.  Yes, I was

 5     just wondering what the left top said.  But I see in the English

 6     translation that it says, "I approve, Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic."

 7             Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We would object since obviously this is not something

 9     that has been worked based on.  No signatures.  This is -- can be created

10     anywhere at any time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you tell us where the map comes

12     from?

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, my notes say it's from the

14     1st Krajina Corps collection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you say, still, forgeries could be in the

16     archives of the --

17             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... this is not a document

18     that anybody worked based on.  It would be forbidden to proceed based on

19     the document that is not signed.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to have it marked for identification for

21     the moment, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well ...

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  There's no claim that on

25     the basis of this, just this map, that one would start any operations.

Page 19534

 1             Therefore, that objection is invalid, and the map will be

 2     admitted into evidence under number, Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09837 receives number P2878,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   And I want to turn now to the discussion of camps that you had

 8     mention as moment ago.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P377.  Okay.

10        Q.   Can you describe what -- the importance of this document for us,

11     briefly, if you recognise it.

12        A.   This a document that was in the 1st Krajina Corps archive and

13     it's a Main Staff instruction that has been passed down to all the corps

14     to establish prisoners of war camps.

15             At this time Manjaca and the 1st Krajina Corps had already been

16     established but this is a formal instruction to establish camps in other

17     corps.  There's a number of handwritten annotations on the side.  And

18     it's my assessment that what happened was the 1st Krajina Corps took this

19     Main Staff instruction and General Talic or his staff officers made

20     annotations either in order that a new draft was going to be written for

21     the corps or that he simply just sent this down to the -- his subordinate

22     units.

23             So, for example, there's a handwritten annotation saying,

24     "Assistant commander for moral guidance," who is Colonel Vukelic,

25     "deliver to warden of Manjaca camp.  Personally inspect how prisoners of

Page 19535

 1     war are being treated."  So the annotation is of the 1st Krajina Corps,

 2     although the underlying document comes from the Main Staff.  There's also

 3     an attachment to it which is obligations to -- their obligations to abide

 4     by the Geneva Conventions.

 5        Q.   Can you comment at all on the note in the document that there

 6     are -- that there are obligations to abide by the Geneva Conventions?

 7        A.   Well, it would seem to reinforce that the VRS were aware of the

 8     obligations that they -- they had in relation to detainees and prisoners.

 9     And they're passing down these instructions down the corps -- down to the

10     corps.

11        Q.   In the military, what response would you expect to see if orders

12     to follow the law are not obeyed?

13        A.   Well, the military is really actually not any different to -- to

14     anywhere else.  If an order is -- military orders and instructions are

15     not obeyed, there should be some kind of sanction -- investigation and

16     sanction and potential punishment if they are not followed.

17        Q.   Did you see that response in the 1st Krajina Corps?

18        A.   In regard to what type of activity, sir?

19        Q.   Violations of the instruction here, for instance, to respect the

20     provisions of international laws of war in all treatment of prisoners.

21     We see that just under point 2 on page 1 in both languages.

22             Did you see investigations and prosecutions for that?

23        A.   No, I didn't, sir.

24        Q.   Have you been able to review the records of the Banja Luka

25     military court at some point --

Page 19536

 1        A.   Yes -- yes, sir, I did.  Some time ago now, but we reviewed the

 2     records of the court, military court there, and I didn't observe many --

 3     well, there was not investigations and punishments of this type of

 4     activity, abuses of detainees.  Nor did I actually see other types of

 5     activity, including killings or lootings.  There were prosecutions of

 6     soldiers, disorderly behaviour among themselves, or shooting each other

 7     or some other minor disciplinary infractions, but I did not see

 8     significant investigations or prosecutions against individuals in the

 9     1st Krajina Corps.

10        Q.   And for interpreting an order like this, what does it mean for

11     how subordinate units understand this type of order if it isn't enforced,

12     in the matter you just described?

13        A.   Well, discipline is a key function in the military.  If you -- if

14     you don't maintain discipline, you can't expect the military to conduct

15     their primary tasks.  So if individuals are not punished for infractions

16     like this, the orders become meaningless, on the one hand, and

17     individuals feel that they can get away with such behaviour, and it may

18     lead to an increase in that type of activity.

19        Q.   In your reports, you cite a number of newspaper articles about

20     events in the camps.  As far as you could tell, was the 1st Krajina Corps

21     aware of what was being reported about the camps in the international

22     press?

23        A.   Yes, I certainly know of one reference, direct reference to that

24     issue, that what's being reported in the international media is having a

25     detrimental effect.

Page 19537

 1        Q.   Did that awareness extend to the Main Staff?

 2        A.   I am aware that the Main Staff were aware of what was happening

 3     inside Manjaca.  I don't have the daily combat reports of the Main Staff

 4     to be able to say that they knew.  But I would assume that if that the

 5     VRS 1st Krajina Corps were aware of what was happening in the

 6     international media, and bearing in mind that the Main Staff had a

 7     connection with the RS leadership who were actively involved in

 8     negotiations externally, that the VRS Main Staff would be aware of

 9     problems in relation to detention camps, especially in July and

10     August 1992.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P230.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Traldi, I noticed that on

13     the B/C/S version there is some handwriting on the side of the page.  I'm

14     not seeing any prevalent translation of that on the English side.

15             MR. TRALDI:  If you look below the words treatment of prisoners

16     of war, Judge Moloto, Your Honour, I think you will see handwritten in

17     the margin and [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... my apologies.  Thank

19     you so much.

20             MR. TRALDI:  My understanding is that [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers] ... thank you so much.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the following question to you,

23     Mr. Brown.

24             You were asked about the awareness, whether it extended to the

25     Main Staff.  You started saying:

Page 19538

 1             "I am aware that the Main Staff were aware of what was happening

 2     inside Manjaca."

 3             And then you come with a kind of reasoning that they should -- or

 4     they would have been aware, but that's not factual knowledge.  It's,

 5     rather, deduction based partly on assumption.  I read the transcript:

 6     But I would assume if that the VRS 1st Krajina Corps was aware of what

 7     was happening and bearing in mind had a connection with the RS

 8     leadership, it's a rather complex type of reasoning rather than a direct

 9     conclusion you could draw on the basis of these documents.

10             Would you agree with me that it's --

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I don't have the Main Staff archive and

12     Main Staff documents necessarily that would indicate that.  I do know,

13     for example, when Manjaca camp was visited by the ICRC in July, the

14     report that the 1st Krajina Corps made of that visit, which indicated the

15     criticisms that the ICRC had, was communicated to the Main Staff.  And

16     that was a document sent on the 16th of July.  And, in fact, that

17     document arrived at the Main Staff before the Karadzic instruction

18     enclosing the ICRC report.

19             So that is one reference that I do know that the VRS Main Staff

20     received from the 1st Krajina Corps outlining the problems that the

21     ICRC -- significant problems that the ICRC had observed in that camp in

22     the middle of July.

23             There are --

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   I --

Page 19539

 1        A.   So that is -- that is one aspect.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If we might, Your Honour, just call up P230.  I

 3     believe that next document is the one Mr. Brown is describing so ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.

 5             But, nevertheless, Mr. Brown, I listen carefully to your first

 6     line of the answer of my question.  You say:

 7             "Yes.  I don't have the Main Staff archives and Main Staff

 8     documents necessarily that would indicate that."

 9             THE WITNESS:  Would indicate --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You also could have said, I don't have the

11     Main Staff archive and Main Staff documents, so I do not know whether

12     they indicate awareness.

13             You see the difference in your phrase and in my phrase.  Your

14     phrase is more or less starting, I don't have the evidence from what I

15     know was the case.  I say, I don't have the evidence; therefore, I

16     wouldn't know, at least what the content of that evidence would have

17     been.

18             Could I invite you to be very strict in this respect --

19             THE WITNESS:  Sir, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and not to say, I don't have it so that's the

21     reason I can't prove it.  If I would have it the evidence would be there.

22     Because if you don't have the evidence, then --

23             THE WITNESS:  Of course.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it may be further open.  I just wanted to let you

25     know that I carefully listened to not only to the content of your

Page 19540

 1     testimony but also to the language you are using.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Sir.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P230, please.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are kindly requesting the

 6     witness to speak into the microphones again, please.  Thank you.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Is this the document you were referring to just a moment ago,

 9     sir?

10        A.   Yes, it is, sir.

11        Q.   And you see it's -- it's sent to the Main Staff of the army and

12     to the Doboj operations group?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   Okay.  Did you see any action in response from the Main Staff

15     around this time, 16 July 1992, in your review of the documents?

16        A.   I did not see any instructions in the Krajina Corps archive

17     coming down to the -- to the corps making significant -- asking for

18     significant changes on the basis of this instruction.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 06982.

20        Q.   It's an order from General Mladic several weeks later.

21        A.   It was an instruction later, but I believe that was on the basis

22     of the Karadzic request later.

23        Q.   We can call those up in just a moment, sir.

24             This document under the words, "I order," on page 1 says:

25             "Immediately undertake measures through the MUP and authorities

Page 19541

 1     to arrange POW camps in your zones of responsibility and prepare them for

 2     visits by foreign journalists and International Red Cross team."

 3             Can you tell us what has been happening in that regard based on

 4     the documents you reviewed between 16 July and 3 August?

 5        A.   There had been, after the ICRC visit, some articles that had

 6     appeared in the media by Roy Gutman at the end of August.  Concurrently

 7     with this, there were negotiations ongoing in London.  And it would seem

 8     from this -- these negotiations that the issue of camps had arisen and

 9     that agreement had been given for foreign journalists to visit these

10     camps in early August, most likely in reaction to the criticisms that

11     Gutman, for example, had written about in relation to the detention

12     centres in the Krajina.  So here we have a Main Staff instruction coming

13     down indicating that these visits are to be allowed.

14        Q.   The document refers to a plan to visit camps including Omarska,

15     Trnopolje and Manjaca.  Did journalists visit camps around this time?

16        A.   Yes, they did.

17        Q.   And how did that go?

18        A.   I would argue that far from, if you like, identifying that these

19     institutions were -- were favourable, they actually made the situation or

20     they portrayed the situation that they were -- they were -- they were

21     poor locations and the situation was made worse in a way for the Serbs by

22     those visits.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tendered this document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Brown, you're saying at page 44,

Page 19542

 1     line 16:

 2             "There were poor locations and the situation was made worse for

 3     the Serbs by those visits."

 4             THE WITNESS:  Maybe it's a -- certainly -- maybe not the best

 5     expression.  I think in order to placate the criticisms that were

 6     happening at the end of August, this visit was allowed.  And on the 5th,

 7     the journalists visited the camps, but they reported that they were, in

 8     essence, in an even worse condition or that the situation was worse

 9     than -- than -- in the past.  So rather than defusing the situation by

10     the visit, it actually opened up the camps, further opened up the camps

11     to international -- to the international media.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06982 receives number P2879,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Could I ask you the following, Mr. Brown:  We looked earlier at

18     the report about the ICRC visit which you said demonstrated that the

19     Main Staff had awareness of what happened in Manjaca camp.

20             Now, the criticism contained in that report, would you agree with

21     me that that certainly not covers all the things that may have happened

22     in those camps?  It only partially addresses what is addressed by

23     evidence this Chamber heard about how people were transported to the

24     camps and how people were -- died during those events.  Hardly anything

25     of that kind appears in the reporting on the basis of the ICRC visit.

Page 19543

 1     Would you agree with that?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Is it possible for me to see the document again,

 3     the one that went to the Main Staff?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was -- was it P230, Mr. Traldi or ...

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  There are two, actually, and I

 6     might ask which would assist more.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  16th of July.  That was one the one I had on my

 8     mind.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  P230 then, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which is by far earlier than the other one.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Indeed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you need to look at the second page, don't

13     hesitate to ask, Mr. Brown.

14             THE WITNESS:  The second page would be useful, sir.

15             Could we go back to the first page again.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could I ask you already about the second

17     page.  That would be my second question.  Whether the report reflects all

18     the things this Chamber heard evidence about, that is, killing,

19     et cetera, whether, in page 2, there are several reasons reported to the

20     Main Staff explaining that the dissatisfaction is not due to the

21     condition in the camps but that other reasons are given for the

22     dissatisfaction of the ICRC.

23             THE WITNESS:  I would argue, sir, that the -- the -- the

24     criticisms on page 1 are significant.  If we could go back to page 1,

25     please.

Page 19544

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But could you also -- first respond to my

 2     second question, whether, on page 2, main reasons are given --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- why it is not the conditions in the camp but for

 5     other reasons that the ICRC is dissatisfied.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The -- the -- the author gives his reasons as

 7     why these criticisms are not justified and so -- so in that respect, that

 8     is the case, yes, sir.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that was reported to the Main Staff --

10             THE WITNESS:  That was reported to the Main Staff.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now we are back at page 1.

12             THE WITNESS:  And the criticisms that are reported from the ICRC

13     that are reported to the Main Staff are that there's a lack of food, loss

14     of weight of prisoners, risk of epidemic, that they -- I believe earlier

15     on that they hadn't been allowed to see certain individuals.  The health

16     of the problem -- of the -- of the prisoners.  And, I believe, that

17     there -- fresh traces of -- of blood in the camps on the prisoners.

18             Now, reading this, I -- I think that these are quite significant

19     criticisms --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you whether these are significant

21     criticisms.  My question was, talking about awareness of what happened in

22     Manjaca camp, whether this report also includes other events the

23     Chamber heard evidence about, that is about killing.  I mean --

24             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... okay, I understand.  I

25     understand, Your Honour.

Page 19545

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if blood is found somewhere, that doesn't mean

 2     that someone is killed yet.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             THE WITNESS:  [Overlapping speakers] ... of course.  No, of

 4     course, sir.  No, it doesn't mention killings in this report.  It does

 5     allude to some of the other poor conditions that are there, however.

 6     Maybe that's my point, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, the awareness, if it would have to

 8     be based on this document, would be partially only.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  On those issues.

10             Maybe this is not a -- part of your -- I will -- I will leave it.

11     I was going to deal with something else.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 03326, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I add why I asked this question, because

16     you -- I gained the impression that you jumped rather quickly to

17     conclusions as the Main Staff was aware on what happened in Manjaca camp,

18     where the reporting certainly does not cover everything we heard

19     about [Overlapping speakers] ... so a more cautious conclusion would have

20     been appropriate.

21             THE WITNESS:  I would agree, sir.  There is a reference obviously

22     in early August when the Omarska prisoners arrived at Manjaca that there

23     were deaths during the transportation.  That was in a daily combat report

24     that went to the Main Staff.  But based on this document, sir, I

25     wholeheartedly agree.  It doesn't reference specifically killings.  It

Page 19546

 1     does certainly allude to me that the conditions in these other areas are

 2     being reported by the ICRC and that the Main Staff is being made aware of

 3     these criticisms.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And this document begins on page 1 --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to intervene for the sake of the

10     transcript.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. LUKIC:  After your question from line 6 to line 10, on

13     page 48, witness twice said "I agree, Your Honour."

14             Actually, "I agree, sir."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you're right.  The witness expressed

16     that he agreed in those respects with my observations.

17             We'll move on.

18             Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  This document here, sir, we see:

20             "Dear Mr. Prime Minister, I hereby deliver to you copies of the

21     reports on the situation in Manjaca and Bileca prisons that I just

22     received.  In regard to these reports, I have sent a letter to

23     Mr. Cornelio Sommaruga, the president of ICRC, and to General Ratko

24     Mladic."

25             At the bottom of the page, we see, again, Mr. Karadzic's stamp

Page 19547

 1     and signature.  Could we turn to page 5 in the English and in the B/C/S.

 2     And here we see the Red Cross report.  And it notes here, under point 2:

 3             "All eight delegates present in camp observed on detainees

 4     frequent and widespread traces of recent and often severe beatings; these

 5     most often were fresh hematomas inflicted in a time-period since arrival

 6     at Manjaca."

 7             Does this document also contribute to the conclusion you were

 8     just expressing that the Main Staff was aware of the ICRC findings in

 9     this respect?

10        A.   Yes.  And this would seem to be a very critical report of the

11     conditions that --

12        Q.   Turning to page 6 of the English and 7 in the B/C/S, just under

13     the words "ICRC recommends that," towards the top of the page, the first

14     sentence we see is:

15             "Manjaca camp is not suitable for detention and should be

16     closed ..."

17             Do you have any comment on that language, sir?

18        A.   Well, it -- it says what it is, and it's the recommendation that

19     a prestigious organisation that is involved in this type of work and

20     monitoring globally the conditions in detention camps.  It is

21     recommending that Manjaca camp is not suitable for -- for detention and

22     should be closed.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 19548

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03326 receives number P2880,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Could we go back to the first page of this document.

 5             Mr. Brown, the last sentence in the very short letter on page 1

 6     of this document, a letter by Radovan Karadzic, refers to:

 7             "Living conditions in the prisons on our territories that are

 8     being held by civil authorities."

 9             Do you have any comment on this reference to the civil

10     authorities?

11             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure exactly what Karadzic is meaning by

12     "civil authorities" or whether he is talking about military authorities

13     within that umbrella, whether he is talking about any prison camps seems

14     slightly ambiguous, but there is an emphasis to try and make the

15     conditions better.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I see that.  But my focus was on that

17     Mr. Karadzic expects the government to take prompt action through the

18     Ministries of Justice and Interior.  Apparently not --

19             THE WITNESS:  Military --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the military.  And clearly points at the civil

21     authorities - and that's how I read this line - being competent to deal

22     with the conditions in those camps.  And I'm asking your comment on that

23     specific aspect of this correspondence.

24             THE WITNESS:  I -- I'm not sure I can add too much more than

25     you've explained, sir.

Page 19549

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't explained anything.  I just read what I

 2     saw.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, but I'm not sure I can add anything there.

 4     There is an omission there of the Ministry of Defence or the Main Staff

 5     in -- bearing in mind Manjaca was a military camp.  But it does seem that

 6     Karadzic is requesting prompt action to make these camps -- or improve

 7     these camps.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But is it your view in the context of all of the

 9     documents that Mr. Karadzic rightly qualifies the camps as being held by

10     civil authorities, or would you consider this to be not in the context of

11     all the documentary evidence a right qualification of the -- of who is

12     holding those camps?

13             THE WITNESS:  I -- obviously the civil authorities are the ones

14     he talks about, but it's not exactly clear what he is referring to there,

15     so I'm not sure I can add too much more, sir.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I understand civil authorities not to be the

17     authorities in the military line of command and control.

18             THE WITNESS:  Normally that would be the case, sir.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes?

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But is there any reason to understand it in any

22     different way than here?

23             THE WITNESS:  No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Which would mean that the Main Staff had no role to

25     play here.  Is that --

Page 19550

 1             THE WITNESS:  I -- I think the -- the language, to me, is

 2     somewhat ambiguous.  I'm not sure clearly what he means.  From my

 3     experience as a military officer, if the military are holding individuals

 4     in a detention camp, it is their responsibility.  And it's their

 5     responsibility for the conditions and, as far as I am aware, on

 6     international law.  So I can't necessarily --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it that you don't know what he means, or is it

 8     that you think that this language conceals the military role in holding

 9     the -- for example, the Manjaca camp.

10             THE WITNESS:  I would imagine that it's whoever is running the

11     facilities that they're running, and that's what he means.  Civil

12     authorities meaning if there's a police camp, it is run by them; or if

13     it's a military camp, it's run by them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what about the two mentioned in view of

15     the documents you studied?  Manjaca and Bileca.

16             THE WITNESS:  Well, they're military-run facility, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So what you say is you disagree with this

18     qualification by Karadzic that these are prisons held by civil

19     authorities.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  They are camps run by the military.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, not being held by civil

22     authorities.  That's your conclusion.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a follow-up question.

Page 19551

 1             At the end of the first paragraph of this letter, there's a

 2     reference that Mr. Karadzic has sent a letter to the president of the

 3     ICRC and to General Ratko Mladic.

 4             During your study of documents, have you seen this letter to

 5     General Mladic?

 6             THE WITNESS:  No, I haven't, sir.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your understanding of this reference to a

 8     letter sent by Karadzic to General Mladic?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Well, is it possible to go to the next -- well --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think attached there's only the report by ICRC.

11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I haven't seen a copy of the letter, sir.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And maybe just to follow up on some of Your Honours'

13     questions before we break, very briefly.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   By your understanding, who was the commander of Manjaca camp?

17        A.   Colonel Bozidar Popovic.

18        Q.   What was his chain of command?

19        A.   The 1st Krajina Corps, Commander General Talic.

20        Q.   And Talic's chain of command --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we slow down, even if the answers need less

22     thinking, that we take a short pause between question and answer.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I think, in fact, Your Honour, probably because I

24     had failed to do that, the witness's answer at line 24 wasn't recorded,

25     so I'll ask more slowly.

Page 19552

 1        Q.   What was Colonel Popovic's chain of command?

 2        A.   He reported to General Talic, commander of the 1st Krajina Corps.

 3        Q.   And to whom did General Talic report?

 4        A.   General Talic reported to the commander of the Main Staff,

 5     General Mladic.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And to follow up on His Honour Judge Fluegge's

 7     question, could we have 65 ter 00640.

 8        Q.   At the top here under the words "improvement of the accommodation

 9     of the POWs," it says:

10             "The Presidency of SRBiH sent us a written report on the state of

11     POWs in the camp on Mount Manjaca made by the International Committee of

12     Red Cross during their visit to the said camp on 17 July 1992."

13             Does that inform your view as to whether the Main Staff received

14     the information contained in the document we just saw assigned by

15     Karadzic?

16        A.   Yes, it would seem to see that the Main Staff received that

17     report.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tendered this document as

20     well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 00640 receives number P2881,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             Mr. Traldi, we take a break, and could you tell us after the

Page 19553

 1     break how much - let's do it in minutes - you would need.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  I just note that there have been

 3     questions from the Bench this session - that's because of the importance

 4     of the material, of course - and so it will be no more than half the

 5     session, but maybe half the session.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Then we take a break after the witness has left the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And we will resume at quarter past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   I've just a few more questions about the detention camps, sir.

17             Conscious of the dates in those few documents we just looked at

18     as being July and August of 1992, were there large-scale releases of

19     detainees from Manjaca around that time?

20        A.   From the documents that I was able to see, no, there wasn't.

21        Q.   And in, for instance, paragraph 2.130 of your Krajina report, you

22     discuss that no significant release of prisoners from Manjaca was carried

23     out until November of 1992 and the majority in December.

24             What do you take from that?

25        A.   Well, bearing in mind that a number of the Manjaca camp reports

Page 19554

 1     themselves indicated that there were large numbers of individuals who

 2     they deemed didn't deserve to be there and a corps reference to the same

 3     thing in August, and bearing in mind the criticisms that had come out

 4     from the ICRC, the camps that -- -- they were not released for some

 5     number of months in the -- till winter of that year.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour I won't show them at this point but I

 7     would refer the Chamber, for instance, to Exhibits P220 and 221.

 8        Q.   Sir, on the occasions that those large releases took place, in

 9     November and December 1992, were prisoners returned home?

10        A.   No.  From the documents that I saw, the prisoners were moved and

11     bussed into Croatia.

12        Q.   And was the Main Staff informed of those deportations?

13        A.   Yes.  The daily combat reports in December, in particular,

14     referenced the moving out of the detainees and the closure of the camp in

15     that month.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 06003, please.

17        Q.   This is a 1st Krajina report dated the 14th of December, 1992.

18             Under point 3, on page 1 in both languages, we say -- we read,

19     rather:

20             "The release of prisoners of war from Manjaca is proceeding as

21     planned, noting the following:  At 1555 hours a convoy of buses with

22     1.008 prisoners crossed the Sava river bridge in Gradiska."

23             Is this an example of what you were just discussing?

24        A.   Yes, I think there were two large movements around this time.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tendered 65 ter 06003.

Page 19555

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06003 receives number P2882,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P2882 is admitted.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   To go back to August for a moment, in your reports you describe

 7     the process the Republika Srpska government went through regarding the

 8     camps at that time, and you described the process as a whitewash.

 9             Can you just explain the basis for your conclusion in that

10     regard.

11        A.   Well, after the media interest in the camps and the -- the -- the

12     international response to that, the Bosnian Serbs did in -- conduct their

13     own investigation into the camps and the report there seems to be

14     marked -- difference to the ICRC report.  The ICRC report was, as we've

15     seen, very critical of the camp and recommended that it was closed.  That

16     didn't happen for a long -- quite a long time.  And individuals who the

17     camp documents, camp records identified as, in essence, having nothing to

18     do with the conflict were detained for a significantly large amount of

19     time in a location that the ICRC had clearly condemned.  That's not what

20     the Bosnian Serb report said, and they did not close the camp on the

21     basis of the ICRC report in July.  It was some significant time after

22     this that the individuals were -- were released.

23        Q.   Speaking of camps now generally not just Manjaca but the others

24     that you saw discussed in those Bosnian Serb documents to which you were

25     just referring, in any of those documents did you see any clear reference

Page 19556

 1     that anyone was punished for what had happened there?

 2        A.   Not on the records that I saw.  And certainly I saw no senior

 3     officer or officer at all being investigated or held to account for any

 4     of the allegations that were identified in those documents.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, I'm going to turn to what happened to those non-Serbs

 6     who were not taken to camps.  Starting in paragraph 2.187 of your Krajina

 7     report, you describe what you term follow-on operations.  And earlier you

 8     described the consequences of the operations in late May for non-Serb

 9     communities.  Do we see the same types of consequences for these

10     follow-on operations?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   I'm going turn now to one of the last operations in the ARK in

13     the village of Vecici.  I'm going to show you three documents and then

14     ask you some questions.  The first is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps

15     to the Main Staff on 2 November.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 16537, please.

17        Q.   As this comes up, can you tell us about the context of what is

18     happening in and around Vecici at the time.

19        A.   From the document I reviewed from the corps there had been

20     operations in the summer in Kotor Varos, but, in essence, the last area

21     that had not been taken under control by the Bosnian Serb forces was the

22     area of Vecici which did have a non-component, I believe, and there were

23     some operations that were being launched out of that area.  But, in

24     essence, it was an area, one of the last pockets in that municipality,

25     that the Serbs did not control.

Page 19557

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could go to page 2 of the English on this

 2     first document but stay on page 1 of the B/C/S.

 3             Under point 3, it reads:

 4             "In the Kotor Varos area (village of Vecici) negotiations about

 5     the disarming of the extremists who have barricaded themselves continue.

 6     There have been no significant occurrences in other parts of the

 7     territory."

 8             Again, the date, 2 November.

 9             Could we have 65 ter 02617, please.  These are a collection of

10     minutes of the Kotor Varos War Presidency in late October and early

11     November of 1992.

12             On page 1 here, under point 2, we see that President Djekanovic

13     said that Colonel Bogojevic would come during the day and that any -- and

14     that Mladic had ordered that any agreement with him regarding Vucic -

15     we'll check the translation, but I believe that should be "Vecici" -

16     should be implemented.

17             If we turn to page 3, please.  At the top here we see a list of

18     attendees.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Brown, can you just help us as to a few of the players.

20     What is Colonel Bogojevic's role at this time?

21        A.   Colonel Bogojevic is the chief of security at the

22     1st Krajina Corps, assistant commander for security.

23        Q.   And Major Trivic?

24        A.   I'm assume they are referring to Major Janko Trivic, who was

25     operations group Vlasic commander.  That was an operational group that

Page 19558

 1     covered the area of a number of municipalities, Kotor Varos being one of

 2     them.  And it was a subordinate formation of the 1st Krajina Corps.

 3        Q.   And Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic?

 4        A.   He -- Novakovic is the commander of the Kotor Varos

 5     Light Infantry Brigade.

 6        Q.   And then we see a note from Colonel Bogojevic informing all

 7     present that he had received explicit orders from General Mladic that no

 8     one was to be allowed to leave Vecici until the unconditional surrender

 9     of weapons was completed.

10             What conclusion do you draw from these two documents about

11     General Mladic's involvement in the negotiations?

12        A.   Well, it's clear that -- that General Mladic is actively aware of

13     what is happening in Vecici and has issued instructions to senior officer

14     in the corps that -- that there has to be an unconditional surrender in

15     the area, so he is obviously well-known, well versed what was happening,

16     and he is taking it upon himself to send down a senior officer from the

17     corps in order to ensure that that message is passed down to the -- the

18     local actors.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender -- sorry, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The transcript is not very clear, but it is my

21     recollection that you said that there has to be an unconditionally

22     surrender in the area.

23             Is that what you said?

24             THE WITNESS:  I think is unconditional surrender of weapons.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't know whether you said that but I missed

Page 19559

 1     the word of "weapons."

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender those two documents; first,

 4     16537.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16537 receives P2883, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And second, 02617.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02617 receives number P2884,

11     Your Honours.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have -- sorry, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, I have to decide on admission.  I see

14     we have 2887 and then 2884.  That's --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 16537 should receive

16     number P2883.  And then document 02617 should receive number P2884,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then 2883 and 2884 are admitted into evidence.

19     And what I said about 2887 is vacated.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 2939, please.

22        Q.   This is another 1st Krajina Corps report to the Main Staff dated

23     3 November.  And we see here towards the bottom of point 1, first page

24     both languages:

25             "During the night, armed soldiers left the village of Vecici for

Page 19560

 1     an unknown destination, and civilians holding a white flag are walking in

 2     a column toward the village of Vrbanjci."

 3             And I think I may have mispronounced the second village.

 4             Does this support your conclusion as to the level of information

 5     the Main Staff was receiving about events there?

 6        A.   Yes, the Main Staff is being informed about the operation in that

 7     area in some detail.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 02939.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02939 receives number P2885,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P2885 is admitted.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P441.  This is another report

14     from the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff the next day.

15        Q.   And, again, I'll show you two documents and ask you afterwards

16     for your expert conclusion.

17             This document states under point 2 in both languages, second

18     paragraph:

19             "In the area of Kotor Varos, there was a clash between members of

20     Muslim forces and our units" --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You are reading, Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And I'll do so more slowly, Mr. President:

23             "Because of the refusal to negotiate on moving out of the Vecici

24     village area, about 40 Green Berets members were killed and about 200

25     were captured.  A brutal massacre of the captured Green Berets started

Page 19561

 1     because of the wounding of four and killing of one soldier of the

 2     Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade, and the burning of wounded soldiers

 3     at a place in Jajce."

 4             Could we have P442, please.  This will be another report from the

 5     1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff the next day.

 6             And it comes up I'll be looking at point 4 on page 1 in both

 7     languages.  In the second paragraph it reads:  "In the clash --" sorry, I

 8     should start at the first:

 9             "The situation in the Kotor Varos municipality is still very

10     complex.  After they refused to return the weapons and surrender to the

11     Army of Republika Srpska, Muslim extremists from the village of Vecici

12     attempted to fight their way towards Travnik.

13             "In the clash against the Army of Republika Srpska, following the

14     death of one soldier and the wounding of several others, more than 150

15     extremists died in combat."

16        Q.   What do you take from these two documents?

17        A.   The first document it is quite a -- slightly more detailed in

18     relating the story that there have been some casualties but the captured

19     have been killed in a brutal massacre, as a result, in essence, of a

20     revenge attack because of the deaths of individuals within the

21     Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade.  The following day those casualties

22     seemed to be portrayed as combat casualties.

23        Q.   Do you have any view on that evolution?

24        A.   One would seem to be indicating that there had been a criminal

25     act, and the other one that these casualties were acceptable and combat

Page 19562

 1     casualties and ... they've changed the story.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P356, page 121 in both

 3     languages.  This will be another of General Mladic's notebooks.  It's

 4     possible, based on the right diagram, that my notes are in error.  Could

 5     we go forward a page, please.

 6             Here, this records a meeting -- we don't have the B/C/S yet, so

 7     actually I'll pause for a moment.  I believe it should be the same page

 8     in the B/C/S as the English.

 9             And now we have it.  This records a meeting General Mladic

10     attends in Banja Luka with senior officers in the 1st Krajina Corps on

11     2 November.

12        Q.   Did you review General Mladic's notebooks for the period related

13     to the Vecici documents we've just discussed, the 2nd through the

14     5th of November, 1992?

15        A.   Yes, I did recently, and General Mladic is in Banja Luka and the

16     Krajina area in those dates.

17        Q.   When you say the Krajina area, within either the 1st or 2nd

18     Krajina Corps' area of responsibility?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct, sir.

20        Q.   And how does that impact your view on the documents we just

21     looked at regarding Vecici?

22        A.   Well, it may give some context as to why General Mladic's name is

23     in the instructions in the -- the -- the -- the minutes of the meeting

24     and why a senior officer from the corps has been sent down.  It would

25     seem that General Mladic is in the area meeting with the corps commander,

Page 19563

 1     and maybe that is one of the reasons why the -- General Mladic's

 2     instructions are being -- are being heeded.  It certainly would seem to

 3     shorten the chain of command if he is physically present meeting with the

 4     Krajina Corps officers on the 2nd of November, the same day that the

 5     security chief is sent down by him.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 03921, please.  This is the

 7     1st Krajina Corps' 1993 report on combat readiness in 1992.

 8        Q.   As it comes up, can you tell us something about what this

 9     document is.

10        A.   This is a document compiled by the Main Staff in spring of 1993,

11     in essence, as a reflection on what it had achieved in the previous

12     period and also as a mechanism of identifying any weaknesses and looking

13     ahead as to what they were to do.  So it is a reflective document as much

14     as it is about looking forward.

15        Q.   You referred to the Main Staff combat readiness report.  Were

16     there corps reports prepared that went into the preparation of that

17     report?

18        A.   Yes, there was, sir.  And the 1st Krajina Corps compiled their

19     only analysis report which would have formed one of the underlying

20     documents needed to compile this document.

21        Q.   And just for the clarity of the transcript, could you perhaps

22     review the page and tell us which one we're looking at now.

23        A.   This is the 1st Krajina Corps's combat readiness report.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Now, if we could go to page 12 in the English and on

Page 19564

 1     page 17 in the B/C/S, towards the bottom in the English.

 2             It reads, "We achieved" -- if we could scroll down a little so we

 3     have the whole relevant language:

 4             "We achieved significant results in activities related to

 5     prisoner of war exchanges.  Within the 1st Krajina Corps' zone, over

 6     9.200 prisoners were exchanged, of which 2.300 were military personnel

 7     from the former BH, plus the bodies of around 250 individuals who were

 8     killed."

 9        Q.   Do you have any comment on this language?

10        A.   Well, it seemed to indicate that they've taken a significant

11     number -- or exchanged a significant number of prisoners, and they've

12     certainly divided military personnel from the former BH as a category

13     from that, leaving the remainder presumably were not personnel, military

14     personnel from the former BH.  But it certainly identifies that they'd

15     taken a large number of prisoners.

16        Q.   And what's reflected there, roughly 25 per cent, I think, of the

17     prisoners, they reflect as exchanged being military personnel?

18        A.   From the former BH, yes.

19        Q.   From the former BH.  Is that roughly consistent -- not specific

20     numbers, obviously, but is that surprising to you based on the documents

21     you reviewed?

22        A.   It's surprising in the terms of the size of numbers or the

23     content?

24        Q.   The ratio of military personnel to total prisoners.

25        A.   It certainly is small.  It's more than I'd expect.

Page 19565

 1        Q.   Can you assess the Main Staff's level of awareness of what the

 2     1st Krajina Corps was doing in 1992 based on the process reflected in

 3     this document as well as the daily reporting you've described earlier?

 4        A.   I think the 1st Krajina Corps was keeping the Main Staff informed

 5     through its daily combat reports from the moment of its transition.  In

 6     fact, there was a seamless transition, really.  It was a professional

 7     corps.  From the document that I reviewed, from the archive, it kept the

 8     Main Staff and recognised that it had to keep the Main Staff informed,

 9     both through the daily combat reports and then obviously in a document

10     like this.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 03921.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03921 receives number P2886,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P2886 is admitted.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, the next document I'd ask for is the

17     one that I'd referred to yesterday where we've sought to add it to the

18     65 ter list.  65 ter 30391 has been provisionally assigned.  It's an

19     excerpt from General Talic's personnel file that reflects an assessment

20     by General Mladic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And contains how many pages?  How long is it?  And

22     what is the reason why?  Oversight?

23             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  The English translation was only

24     requested over the summer, and we disclosed it to the Defence as soon as

25     we identified it and sought to add it a couple of weeks, I think, after

Page 19566

 1     we had had a chance to review the English version.  It's about two, three

 2     pages.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We already objected to this.  We already objected to

 5     this.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You already objected.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber grants leave to have it added to the

 9     65 ter list and overrules the objection.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask for it to be called up then.  As usual, by

11     the time I ask for it, it's already happening.  So we see General Talic's

12     name here on the first page.

13             Can we turn to page 2 in both languages, please.  Sorry, page 2

14     in the B/C/S but page 3 in the English.

15             I won't read the whole evaluation, but I'm starting at the fourth

16     line in the English on page 3:

17             "After it's withdrawal of the JNA from BH, together with his

18     associates, he successfully, and in a very short period, set up the

19     1st Krajina Corps"  --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You're reading, Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, I am, Mr. President:

22             "... which was the strike force of the VRS, and he successfully

23     conducted the battles for the liberation of Posavina and other Serbian

24     areas."

25             It discusses more details below that and then concludes:

Page 19567

 1             "He receives the grade of excellent."

 2        Q.   Now you hadn't seen this document when you prepared your reports.

 3     Have you reviewed it in preparation for your testimony here?

 4        A.   Yes, I reviewed this a couple of days ago.  It was the first time

 5     I had seen it.

 6        Q.   And do you have any comment on what we see in this document?

 7        A.   A couple of things, I guess.  One is that the corps had conducted

 8     its operations, such as Operation Corridor in relation to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Guessing is not what we expect anyone to do.

10             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, sir, it's a phrase.

11             General Mladic is congratulating or making a reference that the

12     1st Krajina Corps, under Talic's command, has successfully achieved the

13     objectives set:  Operation Corridor which was a strategic objective and

14     the liberation of its territory in its zone.  And he has given an

15     excellent grade.  There aren't any references or criticisms of any of the

16     activity in which his corps was involved in.  There are no criticisms of

17     operations against -- that resulted in civilian deaths.  None of the

18     retaliatory actions which are referenced in my report, none of the issues

19     relating to the camp which sat under his authority.

20             So General Talic is given an excellent grade, which I find

21     knowing what his corps had been involved in somewhat -- somewhat of note.

22     That despite all the issues that I referenced in my report he was still

23     given an excellent grade.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30391.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are now at the stage of admission or

Page 19568

 1     not.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  No objection to admission.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30391 receives number P2887,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P2887 is admitted.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Then the last document I'll show you, sir, is one that you

 9     mentioned before, just a couple of moments ago.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P338.  And I'd request

11     page 159 in the English; 138 in the B/C/S.  This is the Main Staff combat

12     readiness report for 1992 drafted in 1993.

13             Looking at the second paragraph in the English, fourth line, the

14     language I want to point you to reads:

15             "The strategic objectives of our war which were promptly defined

16     and set before the Main Staff of the Army of RS, the commands and units,

17     served as a general guide-line upon which we planned the actual

18     operations and concerted battles."

19             That's at the bottom of the page in B/C/S or towards it.  It

20     continues a couple of lines thereafter, turning to the next page in the

21     B/C/S:

22             "The Main Staff of the Army of RS translated the set objectives

23     and tasks into general an individual missions of the Army of RS and of

24     the individual operational and tactical formations with the goals of

25     every individual combat action, operation, or battle being specifically

Page 19569

 1     defined."

 2        Q.   What does this language signify, in your view?

 3        A.   Well, it would seem to echo what I was discussing earlier that

 4     there were political and strategic goals given by the leadership and that

 5     the Main Staff took those and used them as the formation of their

 6     operations which they disseminated down to the corps, and they -- they

 7     were -- so that effective chain of command functioned.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 160 now in the English.  It

 9     sets out some of the objectives that we've just been discussing.

10             It says at the very top:

11             "The primary focus for the Army of RS for quite some time had

12     been to open and maintain a corridor linking the Republic of

13     Serbian Krajina through the Bosnian Krajina with Serbia."

14        Q.   Does that relate, in your view, to the corridor operation we've

15     discussed?

16        A.   Yes, that reflects Karadzic's statement at the

17     16th Assembly Session, the operation in June and the operation that the

18     1st Krajina Corps was successful in during the summer months.

19        Q.   At the end of that same paragraph, it continues:

20             "In the last month and a half, our operations have concentrated

21     on the liberation of Podrinje, as thereby the strategic objective of our

22     war would be realised, one that could be defined as 'establishing

23     contact' with Serbia on the river Drina, or the Drina ceasing to be a

24     frontier."

25             Do you also relate that to one of the strategic objectives?

Page 19570

 1        A.   Yes, that's strategic objective 3, and it very much mirrors the

 2     language of Karadzic at the 16th Assembly Session.

 3        Q.   Have you reviewed -- actually, you discuss in your statement

 4     documents related to directive 4.  Does that relate to this Podrinje

 5     area?

 6        A.   Yes, it does give tasks to other corps, but the emphasis very

 7     much is on the Podrinje area and that was around November --

 8        Q.   And here --

 9        A.   -- 1992.

10        Q.   Yes.  In -- in this document, second paragraph, it reads:

11             "The presence of the commander of the Main Staff, or of a

12     representative of the Main Staff, in the units carrying out the mission

13     of the liberation of Podrinje is a specific way of giving weight to and

14     steering combat operations towards a single goal."

15             Based on your review of directive 4 and the associated documents,

16     can you comment on what that single goal was?

17        A.   Well, the single goal is the goal articulated in the -- in

18     strategic goal number 3, which is to secure the Drina -- corridor in the

19     Drina, eliminating the border between Serbia and RS territory.  And that

20     is echoed in the tasks that were given to that corps, the Drina Corps in

21     November 1992.

22        Q.   What place -- based on your review of directive 4 and the related

23     documents, what place was contemplated for the non-Serb population in the

24     Podrinje area after that goal or in the implementation of that goal?

25        A.   From what I remember of the directive, and I'm -- it was that the

Page 19571

 1     Muslim population were to be driven out.  I mean, it may not be the exact

 2     language, I would have to go back to the document, but I believe that's

 3     the -- the emphasis.

 4        Q.   And do you relate that goal to the operations that you saw or

 5     that you reviewed in the ARK?

 6        A.   I relate that goal to the issue of strategic goal number 1, as

 7     much as the Drina valley being secured and that of the separation of

 8     communities.  So I -- I relate it to as much to strategic goal number 1.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

12             Mr. Lukic, I suggest that we take a little bit longer break,

13     25 minutes, and then have a last session of 1 hour and 20 minutes, so

14     moving up to quarter to 3.00.

15             MR. LUKIC:  That's exactly what I suggest.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 25 minutes past 1.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 1.27 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

23     the courtroom.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Before we start, I -- just for the record, I was

25     warned by Ms. Registrar that probably I misspoke on 8th November, 2013,


Page 19572

 1     on page 19040, line 1 to line 16, on the same page.  It is wrongly

 2     recorded doc ID number.  It -- it was recorded 1D06-1678, and it should

 3     be corrected, and correct number is 1D07-0678.  And it's English

 4     translation of the document D389.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you corrected, Mr. Lukic.  I can't say from

 7     the top of my head now the problem is resolved, but it's on the record at

 8     least now, and whomever has to work with it is now put on notice that

 9     they should read this as well, and not only the

10     8th of November transcript.

11             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready.

12             Mr. Brown, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic

13     is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

18        Q.   Good afternoon.

19        A.   Good afternoon, sir.

20        Q.   Do you have your report?  We'll be using first Krajina report,

21     P2859.

22        A.   I have it in front of me, sir, yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  And this -- this morning I gave copies for

24     Your Honours of this report, so we don't have to flip in between the

25     report and the documents, and you can follow the whole paragraphs.  Maybe

Page 19573

 1     I could miss something.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I always have some concerns because of the

 3     paper spent but because I have it on my screen as well.  Let's proceed

 4     and we appreciate your efforts to make life easier for us.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Brown, in your report, this will be page 5

 7     in English and in B/C/S, we can see a summary.  In the summary, in the

 8     first paragraph, it says in the last sentence:

 9             "By April 1992, there had been a growing convergence between the

10     JNA and the Serbian Democratic Party."

11                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In the same report, in paragraph 1.3, i.e., in the first part

15     dealing with the political and military situation, I repeat,

16     paragraph 1.3, you quote a JNA document -- or you, rather, cite it.  And

17     you say in that quote that the HDZ, the SDA and the SDS effectively

18     created all the necessary conditions in terms of the economy, politics,

19     and military conditions in order to launch armed conflicts and to put up

20     armed resistance against the JNA.

21             This is relative to a document which was produced in

22     January 1995 [as interpreted].  My question, sir, is this:  Did you come

23     across a document which describes --

24             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for interrupting Mr. Lukic.  But he's

25     described the document as produced in January 1995.

Page 19574

 1             MR. LUKIC:  1992, sorry.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So the document was created in January 1992.

 5             In your work, did you come across any paper trail of a pronounced

 6     discord between the SDS and the JNA?  Even in the months of April and

 7     May, up to the very end, up to the moment when the JNA finally drew --

 8     withdrew, all that time, there was a lack of trust between the two,

 9     between the SDS and the JNA.  Did you come across any documents that

10     speak about that?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you refer the witness to paragraph 1.3.

12     Do I understand you to be referring to paragraph 1.3 at page 21 of the

13     report?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe if you can give us page numbers whenever you

18     refer to paragraphs.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I think the page is labelled as 12 in the English.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Twelve, exactly, not 21.  I -- it's paragraph 1-3,

21     1.3.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Did you come across any evidence to the fact that there was no

25     trust between the SDS and the JNA, even in the months of April and May of

Page 19575

 1     that year?

 2        A.   I -- I didn't see that lack of trust, certainly in the latter

 3     part in April and May, because there were meetings between Mr. Karadzic

 4     and others in the early days of -- of May.  So, at the earlier period,

 5     no.

 6             This document that you refer to is dated well before that.  I

 7     can't remember ever single footnote because it's been some time since

 8     I've gone through all the documents but it may be that this document is a

 9     reflection back on 1991.

10        Q.   [In English] No, no, I said it was from January 1992.

11        A.   Yes.  It's from January 1991, but I think it is referring to the

12     situation a little bit earlier than that.  But irrespective, what I saw

13     in the early months certainly were criticisms of the SDS and other

14     parties by the JNA in the early months of 1992.  But my report, I

15     believe, argues that there became a convergence between the two certainly

16     in the months of spring.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I will make short breaks for the benefit of the

18     interpreters who are interpreting all of our words and they need time to

19     do that.

20             Did you come across any documents that showed that the SDS armed

21     some formations and the reason was that they did not trust the JNA?

22        A.   My report was not to look at whether the SDS armed or the

23     functions of the SDS, but I do know that there are some references -- at

24     least I can remember one specific reference in March 1992 which the JNA

25     make note of weapons that have been distributed to volunteers and it

Page 19576

 1     references arms that have been given to the SDS.  Whether the SDS were

 2     arming, I'm sure they were.  But it wasn't really the function of this

 3     report to look into the details of whether the SDS were arming in the

 4     early part of 1992 or not.

 5        Q.   Did you ever hear of the Serbian Defence forces whose

 6     abbreviation was SOS?

 7        A.   Yes, I did, sir.

 8        Q.   Who was their leader?  Do you know that?  Who was in command?

 9        A.   I don't know if he was a leader, but I do know that Stevandic,

10     Nenad Stevandic was a member.  It's a name I remember.  I'm not sure if

11     it's a leader.  There is a reference I also know in one of the VRS

12     documents which dealt with paramilitaries that makes mention of the SOS.

13     I also know that around the time of the discussions about what was

14     happening to the JNA in April 1992 that the SOS were pretty unhappy that

15     the JNA may be leaving.  But the SOS was not an organisation I

16     specifically looked into in detail.

17        Q.   Very well.  Would you actually agree with me that both Muslims

18     and Croats pushed the JNA towards the Serbs by attacking them in

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   What do you mean by "Muslims and Croats"?  Are you meaning all of

21     them or -- can you -- can you qualify the question?

22        Q.   It will become clear from the following document.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 19649 is the document that I would

24     like to call up in e-court.

25        Q.   While we're waiting, let me tell you that the document was

Page 19577

 1     apparently issued by the Territorial Defence Staff of the

 2     Ministry for National Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 3     in Sarajevo.  It was issued on the 29 April 1992.  And it is says on the

 4     document --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, just -- I have no objection to the

 7     document being used.  I would suggest that for full context, adjudicated

 8     fact 853, which is related, also be put to the witness.  And I'll leave

 9     it at that, I think.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, would you follow that suggestion, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. TRALDI:  I'd be happy to provided it to him after he's read

12     his part.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I had some suggestions that Mr. Traldi follows my

14     wishes during his direct.  Now I leave it to him for his re-direct.  If

15     he has -- wants to use something I'll happily leave it to him.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep matters short.  If you want to -- put it

17     as you wish.  Mr. Traldi thought it would save time to put it directly in

18     a broader context.  But if -- if you don't follow his suggestion, which

19     was the only thing I asked you, then Mr. Traldi will, in re-examination,

20     I take it, deal with the matter.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I will.  I put on that I think the witness may be

22     given an incomplete picture of the evidence [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  About the [overlapping speakers]...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That is on the record.

Page 19578

 1             And, Mr. Lukic, of course the Chamber expects you to proceed in a

 2     way which is both in the interests of the Defence but also not to waste

 3     time or to -- and I do not know whether it would mislead the witness, but

 4     if it would, of course, you should refrain from it.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I hope I had not mislead the witness and I don't

 7     think that [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... presenting the document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Proceed as you deem fit.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an order on the implementation of a

13     decision by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14     And the number is also mentioned, the number of that decision.  It says:

15             "Pursuant to the decision of 27 April 1992 issued by the

16     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina pertaining to the

17     retreat of the JNA units from the territory of the Socialist Republic of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and due to this decision by the Presidency not

19     being implemented and due to the fact that the appropriation and theft of

20     property of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is carried out by the

21     former JNA."

22             It says, "I hereby order."  Under number 1 it says, "Carry out a

23     full and large-scale prevention on all roads" --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move to the next page in English.  We are

25     by now.

Page 19579

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   "Complete various systems are to be set up along the routes on

 4     the territory of the Bosnia and Herzegovina along which the former JNA

 5     units start extracting technical and materiel equipment.  This is to be

 6     done in direct co-ordination with the MUP."

 7             Under 4, it says:  Speed up the planning of combat activities and

 8     launch combat activities as soon as possible on the whole territory of

 9     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Those are to be co-ordinated with

10     the Territorial Defence Staff at the regional, district, and national

11     levels in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12             Did you have this document in your hands?  Did you review it?

13     The document was sent by the then-minister of defence, Mr. Hasan Efendic.

14        A.   I didn't have this document at hand, and I haven't reviewed it

15     until you showed it to me now.

16        Q.   Would this document have influenced your conclusions as to who

17     the JNA sided with?

18        A.   No.  This document wouldn't have changed the conclusions.  It

19     seems to be contextually in terms of its timing, of importance, and in

20     terms of the content, it would seem to be doing two things.  One is

21     stopping the JNA from removing property that the republic believes is

22     theirs; and, as you note, on 4, planning for combat operations is to be

23     speeded up.  The timing of this document is late; in fact very late

24     April.  It's not an area of my expertise necessarily that I have

25     reviewed, but it would seem that there had already been significant

Page 19580

 1     activity in locations like Bijeljina and Zvornik and also in Sarajevo

 2     which might have been the reason for this issuance of the planning for

 3     combat operations.  But it -- it doesn't add or change my view that, by

 4     this time, this convergence was very much apparent.

 5        Q.   You dealt with various municipalities in Krajina, including,

 6     Prijedor, for example.  Do you know what effect this document had on the

 7     take-over of power in Prijedor?  Did you learn why the SDS took over

 8     power in Prijedor?  Do you know that the reason was that by mistake this

 9     document ended up in the Serbian hands as well, but it was by mistake

10     that it happened?

11        A.   I wasn't aware that it was -- it was made by mistake ending up in

12     Serbian hands at all.  I didn't know that.  What I do know is that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

14             Mr. Lukic, it would help us if you would announce that you would

15     consult with your client so that we could ask the witness to stop

16     answering the question and that not any of the evidence is lost for you.

17             Could I ask the witness to resume from where Mr. Lukic left us.

18             You said:

19             "I wasn't a ware that it was ... made by mistake ending up in

20     Serbian hands ..."

21             And then you told us what you do know.  Could you tell us.

22             THE WITNESS:  I do know that around this time in late April, the

23     SDS took control of the municipality of Prijedor, and that included the

24     engagement of Vladimir Arsic, a JNA officer, in that -- in that -- at

25     this time.  But I can't tell you about the activities with this document

Page 19581

 1     and its impact in Prijedor.

 2             If you -- if your position is that this is the document that

 3     sparks off the municipality take-overs, I would just point out that there

 4     were municipalities other than Prijedor that had already been taken over

 5     by the SDS, including Bratunac and Zvornik, well before this date.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   In view of the documents that have been tendered, are you

 8     testifying about Podrinje or about Krajina?  What is your report about?

 9     If you're testifying about Podrinje, I'm prepared to go there as well,

10     but I have to know.

11        A.   No, my report is about the Krajina.  But clearly there are other

12     areas that would have -- that I'm aware of.  But the report itself deals

13     with the Krajina.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

15     into evidence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr.  Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19649 receives number D41, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D41 would surprise me, Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D412 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the following

22     document, 1D1460, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Traldi, you have posed the

24     Chamber for quite a bit of a puzzle in relation to this report, and I

25     didn't want to address it until I thought I would know what the puzzle

Page 19582

 1     was approximately about.

 2             I think all the attached versions to the 92 bis notice and the --

 3     94 bis notice and the 92 ter motion are a version of the report "Military

 4     developments in the Bosanska Krajina," which is dated the

 5     27th of November.

 6             However, in your 94 bis notice, you referred to 65 ter 11329, and

 7     if you would look under that number, you suddenly find a different

 8     version of the report in English, which is a 21st of July, 2002, version

 9     of the same report, although the translation attached in B/C/S is, again,

10     the 27th of November report.

11             So when I earlier said that I could look at my electronic

12     version, I suddenly found out it is not exactly the same as the one

13     provided to us at many occasions by the Prosecution and by Mr. Lukic.

14             Do you have any solution for me?

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, it appears there is a clerical error in

16     the text of the notice.  The version that was attached on both occasions

17     is the version that I asked to have marked for identification yesterday.

18     That's the 27 November.  I believe that's the version Mr. Lukic -- well,

19     I haven't been provided with what he provided you, but if it is page 12,

20     then that's the version.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 27th of November.  Nevertheless, the

22     65 ter number you referred to in your 94 bis motion is about the same

23     report, but a different version.  And then, of course, it comes as a

24     surprise to find that the English -- apart from whether we should uses it

25     or not, the English of 65 ter 11329 is the July report; whereas the B/C/S

Page 19583

 1     is the November report, which is -- is clearly some kind of a mistake.

 2             I do understand we work exclusively on the basis of the

 3     27th of November report of 2002.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  That's the report we've requested admission for,

 5     yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that is 65 ter 11012 MFI'd now as P2859.

 7             Let's proceed but I was confused.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up

 9     1D1460.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You say that some municipalities had already been taken over.

13     However, this document will show that Muslim attacks had also started

14     much earlier.

15             In this document, which was issued on the 19th of April, 1992,

16     General Kukanjac addresses President Alija Izetbegovic.  The document

17     says that in the course of the night of April 17 through 18, 1992, your

18     Green Berets have carried out an attack on part of a factory in Vogosca,

19     which is Pretis.

20             And then there was an attack in Konjic in the course of the night

21     of April 18th through 19.

22             Further on, it says everything is blocked.  All telephones of the

23     PTT been turned off.  The Green Berets have occupied the military

24     equipment factory in Malin Konjic.  Military medical vehicles are held,

25     searched, and the personnel is ill-treated.  Food for the soldiers has

Page 19584

 1     not been delivered.  And further on, General Kukanjac asks

 2     President Izetbegovic to call off his forces so that they stopped

 3     attacking JNA forces.

 4             On the following page in the B/C/S version, and the same page in

 5     English, it says:

 6             "Do not forget that we have signed a peace agreement

 7     on April 12, 1992.  And on that same day" --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we go back to the earlier page, please.

 9     Sorry, Mr. Lukic --

10             MR. LUKIC:  In English, it's previous page, page 1.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed, Mr. --

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   General Kukanjac warns, and he says:

14             "Do not forget that we signed a peace

15     agreement on April 12, 1992, and that on that very same day you issued

16     that famous directive of yours by way of which you declare a war against

17     the JNA, against Serbs and other innocent citizens."

18             Putting that directive out of force is nothing but a farce, but a

19     charade.  All actions by the SDA and those armies of yours show that you

20     opted for war.

21             In your review of the documents, did you come across this

22     specific document issued by the SDA and Alija Izetbegovic which declared

23     a war on the JNA on the 12th of April, 1992?

24        A.   No, I didn't see that document on the 12th of April, 1992.

25        Q.   If you had known about this document which is before us and other

Page 19585

 1     documentation that speaks about it, would you have changed your position

 2     about the bias held by the JNA?  Would you accept that the JNA was

 3     impartial until the moment when the Muslim armed forces started attacking

 4     it openly?

 5        A.   I -- I wouldn't change the underlying assertion in this report.

 6     I acknowledge in the report that the JNA were in a difficult position and

 7     that also the JNA were attacked in some areas.  I think I make mention in

 8     the report to the corridor, for example.

 9             My report indicates that the JNA wished to see Bosnia remain part

10     of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  So it was in its interests for that

11     to happen.  But my report also highlights some documentation that the JNA

12     were distributing and siding more and more with the SDS, the

13     Bosnian Serbs, and the SDS's position through the spring of 1992.

14             I don't doubt that there were attacks on the JNA, but it doesn't

15     change my underlying assertion that there was a convergence between the

16     JNA and the SDS in those months.

17        Q.   In your work, did you observe any orchestrated use of the armed

18     forces of the Muslim element in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   I can really only talk about the area of the Krajina in -- in

20     detail, although I'm aware of some areas outside of that, but the report

21     deals with the -- with the Krajina.

22             Can you be more specific in relation to that?  Are you asking

23     me ... in -- in that area?

24        Q.   [In English] We'll come --

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'll just offer this document into evidence.

Page 19586

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll deal with that.  But, Mr. Lukic, you're not

 2     interested in an answer to your last question, which was not very precise

 3     to me, but --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I have -- let me use another document to --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For the orchestrated use of the armed

 6     forces --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It wasn't entirely clear to me.

 9             No objections, Mr. Traldi, to the --

10             MR. TRALDI:  I don't have any particularly strong objections to

11     it being marked, Your Honour, but I'm not sure there has been any

12     particular foundation laid with the witness.  The document has been put

13     to him, but that's all.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, sometimes the -- but if you have no real

15     objections, then we will ask Mr. Registrar to assign a number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1460 receives number D413,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D413 is admitted.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now, please, let's look at 1D1461.

20        Q.   This is the Command of the 4th Corps dated 7 May 1991 -- 1992.

21     The title is:  "Events in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Correlation to and

22     repercussions of the overall situation of the JNA."

23             Under 3, it says:

24             "With greater or lower intensity, barracks and other military

25     installations are constantly under blockade.  The personnel is being

Page 19587

 1     provoked and subjected to armed attacks."

 2             Would you agree with me that without co-ordination, it was not

 3     impossible [as interpreted] to attack the barracks and the personnel of

 4     the JNA in the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Or do you believe

 5     that those were isolated incidents?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, this question, are you saying it was

 7     "not impossible" or it was "not possible"?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We claim that it's not possible to have barracks

 9     attacked --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Read the question on the record and correct it

11     accordingly, if that's what you want to do.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Without co-ordination it was not possible.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS:  It's a little bit difficult to answer the question

16     without more information.  Is a barracks attacked -- could it be attacked

17     without co-ordination?  Yes.  Are you asking me specifically about the

18     barracks in Sarajevo, for example, or -- it -- it -- I would like you to

19     be a little more specific --

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Just a moment.  What is discussed here is the overall situation

22     of the JNA in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        A.   I did not see in the Krajina area in this period of April - and I

24     know this goes into May - in the Krajina, I did not see large-scale

25     co-ordinated attacks or co-ordinated attacks against the JNA except with

Page 19588

 1     the possible exception of the corridor, where the Croats took control of

 2     the corridor, I believe, it was March - I'd have to check my report - and

 3     there were some incidents in the border area around Bugojno, I think.

 4             But in the Krajina, I did not see large-scale co-ordinated

 5     attacks against the JNA.  In part, the 5th Corps was working in

 6     Western Slavonia.  Part of its corps was there, so there were certainly

 7     operations against that corps in that area.  But internally in Bosnia, in

 8     the Krajina, I did not see large-scale co-ordinated attacks against the

 9     JNA.

10             There were in May certainly lower-level, relatively low-level

11     attacks.  But if you asked about co-ordinated attacks against the JNA in

12     the 5th Corps in particular or 1st Krajina Corps as it developed into, I

13     did not see that from their reports.

14             Now I am aware -- it's not a part of this report, but my

15     background knowledge -- I am aware that some barracks in Sarajevo and

16     elsewhere were surrounded, were attacked, and certainly that would have

17     caused tensions, did rise -- give a rise to tension, and most likely you

18     would have to have some degree of co-ordination in order to block that.

19     But if you're underlying question to me is that did I see large-scale

20     co-ordinated attacks against the JNA in April or May, in particular, I

21     didn't see in the Krajina, from the documents that I have reviewed from

22     the -- own corps.

23        Q.   It's rather a long answer, but I'll ask you briefly:  Derventa,

24     that is to say, the barracks in Derventa, is a part of the 1st Krajina

25     Corps, that is to say, the 5th Corps; right?

Page 19589

 1        A.   Yes, it is, sir.

 2        Q.   Was that barracks occupied by the Croat-Muslim forces?  And did

 3     they, on the axis Bosanski Brod-Derventa-Doboj occupy everything, take

 4     hold of everything, in depth towards Doboj along a stretch of

 5     60 kilometres?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness earlier made an exception to

 7     the corridor.  Are we talking about the corridor at this moment or close

 8     to the corridor?  My knowledge of where Derventa is -- is -- well, just

 9     at the norther -- close to the northern border of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10             MR. LUKIC:  I would call it corridor.  Corridor is some narrow

11     stretch of land.  This is one of the widest area in Republika Srpska.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you include Derventa in your exception?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.  It's that general area.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What else, according to you, would be a corridor?  What other

18     things did those forces occupy?

19        A.   All I know is that the corridor was severed by Croat forces in

20     that area at that time.  I believe it was in March 1992.  I think the

21     area also was split between the 5th Corps and the neighbouring corps,

22     which was the 17th Corps.  So it wasn't just in the 5th Corps zone.  But,

23     as I said, Croat forces took control of that area in that time.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this document

25     into evidence as well.

Page 19590

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 2             Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 1D1461 receives number D414,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D414 is admitted.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You say that you're aware of some general things about the attack

 8     on the JNA column in Tuzla which happened in mid-May.

 9        A.   I am not aware of the details of an attack on a column in Tuzla.

10     It wasn't really in my zone.

11        Q.   And did you hear what happened in Sarajevo at the beginning of

12     May 1992?  There was another attack also on a column.

13        A.   I am aware of that generally.  It -- because it has been well

14     reported, but it's not part of my -- my report.  Yes, I know that this

15     column was -- a JNA column was split.

16        Q.   And now let's look at your paragraph 1.15.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In English, it will be on page 15 and

18     it will spill over onto page 16.  And in e-court, it is page 16,

19     continuing on page 17, in the B/C/S version.

20        Q.   Did you ever come across a single document in which the JNA

21     declares a war on Bosnian Muslims, like the Muslim officials did against

22     the JNA?

23        A.   Well, I haven't seen the instruction about the Bosnian Muslims

24     declaring a war on the JNA, so I can't really comment on that.  I haven't

25     seen a JNA document with that wording, declaring war on -- on Muslims.

Page 19591

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, this is what happens if you put a

 2     question and combine it with a comment and giving evidence yourself, then

 3     the witness, of course, doesn't know where to start with answering your

 4     question or to -- commenting on your observations.

 5             Could you please split them up.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm happy with this answer and I will

 7     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, but for future

 9     purposes.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Did you ever come across a document in which the Serbian

12     attack -- side orders attacks on the JNA barracks, officers, their

13     families, in which they order the arrests and killings of JNA soldiers?

14     Did you ever come across a document like that?

15        A.   No, I don't believe -- I don't believe I did, if I -- if I

16     understand your question correctly.

17        Q.   Yes, you did, and I thank you.

18             And by way of conclusion, would it be right to say that the JNA

19     sided with the only side in Bosnia and Herzegovina that never attacked

20     it?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please explain exactly what you mean by

22     that question, Mr. Lukic, because ...

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know how else to put this

24     question to make it sound better and clearer.

25        Q.   Is it true that the JNA, for example, moved its equipment to the

Page 19592

 1     territory which was not under the control of the Muslim and Croat forces

 2     which is only normal.  Because if they moved to the territory under the

 3     control of the Muslim and Croat sides, they would have been attacked

 4     there, wouldn't they?  That's why they decided to move their equipment

 5     and troops to the territory under the Serbian control, because they were

 6     safe there.  They were not attacked there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's your explanation.  It's apparently the

 8     answer you expect the witness to give.

 9             But could you put it in -- the -- the question was rather vague

10     to me.  I mean, if you say, You side with the party which doesn't attack

11     you, if you would do the opposite and you say, The party with which you

12     side you do not attack.  That's -- it's -- it's all sweeping, abstract

13     statements.  Ask for specific conclusions or -- but ...

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] However, in Mr. Brown's work, we do

15     come across various explanations as to why the JNA sided with the Serbs,

16     and I'm now offering my own explanation for that and I'm asking him

17     whether such an explanation would be acceptable or not?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  What you then are supposed to do is to take him to

19     the place where he draws any conclusions and then ask him whether on the

20     basis, on the factual basis, underlying that conclusion whether you could

21     exclude for another explanation and then you give the explanation.

22     That's fair to do, no problem.  But then put it in such a way that

23     everyone understands exactly what you are doing.

24             MR. LUKIC:  But a large number of pages deal with this issue.  I

25     cannot cite all of them.

Page 19593

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  If you start with two or three, then we'll see

 2     what happens.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We'll move to paragraph 1.18.

 4        Q.   You say even when the corps emphasised the fact that it was

 5     supporting all the ethnic groups, special emphasise was put on the danger

 6     threatening Serbs.  And from the corps reports, one could gather that

 7     members of the other groups would be protected if they support the

 8     political settlement that resulted in some kind of new federal

 9     Yugoslavia.

10             And then you cite a document of the 5th Corps, and you take as an

11     example of the JNA siding with the Serbs in Slavonia.  Did you know that

12     in October 1990, the Croatian minister of defence, Martin Spegelj, was

13     recorded on video camera planning a massacre of the Serbs in Croatia?

14        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that video, sir.

15        Q.   It was broadcast for a long time in all the media.

16             Did you know then in early January 1991 the minister of the

17     interior of Croatia, Josip Boljkovac, was recorded planning the expulsion

18     of Serbs from Croatia, or, in his words, that there would be no more

19     Serbs in Croatia.

20        A.   I am unaware of that, and I'm not able to comment on it, sir.

21        Q.   Are you aware of the words of President Tudjman, that the strike

22     against the Serbs should be so forceful that the Serbs practically

23     disappear?

24        A.   I'm not aware of that either, sir.  It wasn't part of my report.

25        Q.   If you had known about these statements, would you have accepted

Page 19594

 1     that the protection of the Serb people in Croatia by the JNA was

 2     justified, or would you still see it as partiality?

 3        A.   I'm not sure I can easily answer that question, sir.  The -- as

 4     far as I'm aware, the -- the -- the function of the JNA as a federal body

 5     was to protect the territory and to -- to protect all peoples

 6     irrespective of their ethnicity.

 7             In -- as it developed, the operations that the JNA conducted

 8     certainly in the latter part of 1992 -- 1991 in Croatia were about the

 9     protection of Serbs.

10        Q.   All right.  Was the JNA attacked in Croatia?

11        A.   I -- I -- I don't know the details, but I'm -- yeah, I'm sure on

12     some occasions it was.  It was not an area of my study that I know well.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   Yes, of course, the JNA was attacked in some places.  There was a

15     conflict there.

16        Q.   Do you know how the conflict started?  Did the JNA first attack

17     citizens of Croatia, or was it JNA personnel in barracks who were

18     attacked first?

19        A.   As I've said, I don't know the chronology well.  I do know there

20     were barracks that were surrounded and attacked.  As to the chronology,

21     the context and the build-up, it's not an area of my study in this

22     report.

23        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now we'll move briefly to the

24     organisation of non-Serb formations in the area of responsibility of the

25     1st Krajina Corps and the mode of attack.

Page 19595

 1             On page 9 of your report --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S, we need to move to the

 3     next page because the passage I need begins at the bottom.

 4             It says:

 5             "The inhabitants of several non-Serb villages in certain

 6     municipalities had attempted to organise themselves and in some areas had

 7     established a Crisis Staff/Territorial Defence force.  Some amounts of

 8     weaponry had been procured ..."

 9        Q.   Are you -- are you aware that the Muslim side began its military

10     organising not later than March 1991?

11        A.   I am unaware of that, sir, and I don't know if you've got some

12     documentation that you could show that demonstrate that.

13             Are you talking about the Muslim organisation in the Krajina or

14     the Muslim organisation more generally?

15        Q.   I'm now talking in more general terms, but we'll come to Krajina

16     as well.

17             Are you aware that the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in

18     September 1991, in about 100 municipalities, the SDS [as interpreted] had

19     a military organisation?  The SDA.

20        A.   No, sir, I'm not aware of that.  It wasn't really part of this

21     report.

22        Q.   Did you know that in September 1991, in at least 100

23     municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there existed republic, regional

24     and municipal staffs of the Muslim forces?

25        A.   It was not an area of my study in the report, so I -- I am really

Page 19596

 1     unable to -- to -- to make comment on this.  I do know, of course, within

 2     Bosnia, more generally, there was a republic and municipal TO Staff, but

 3     if you're specifically talking about what the SDA were doing, it was not

 4     really part of my report from the documents in the Krajina collection.

 5        Q.   I'm not talking about Territorial Defence Staffs.  Because, at

 6     that time, in the spring of 1991, they were still part of the system of

 7     All People's Defence.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let's look at 1D1462.  And before

 9     it comes up on the screen, I'd like to tender the previous document,

10     1D1461.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's D414.

13             MR. LUKIC:  1D1461?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it has been admitted already.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Oh.  Thank you.  Sorry.

16             [Interpretation] Now let's look at 1D1462.  We see that this

17     document dates back to March 1992.  It's the command of the 5th Corps.

18     We need page 4.  And if it can't be seen on screen, I have to say that is

19     the document from the command of the 2 Military District, the entire

20     Military District, dated 12 March 1992, and under Roman numeral II, we

21     read that the paramilitary organisation of political parties in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina is being finalised.  It says the SDA has about 50.000

23     people within the framework of the Patriotic League.  These 50.000 people

24     are armed with about 20.000 rifles, 170 -- 170 light machine-guns, and

25     smaller amounts of anti-armour assets and mortars.  It is also reckoned

Page 19597

 1     that they would have 1.600 more rifles that could be distributed when

 2     mobilisation was declared.  And the Muslim Youth Organisation is also

 3     being armed.

 4        Q.   Did you have the information that in the area controlled by the

 5     1st Krajina Corps, there were armed formations mentioned here.  How many

 6     men were armed and how many members of the Green Berets were armed as

 7     military elements of the Muslim people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   I would like to read the whole document, if I could, at some

 9     stage just to get some context.

10             But in relation to your question, do I believe that there were

11     armed formations in the Krajina?  Yes.  I make reference to that in my

12     document, but --

13        Q.   Excuse me.  My question is:  Do you know how many pieces of

14     weapons were in the hands of the Muslim people in the Krajina?

15        A.   No, sir, I don't.  Not -- the documents don't make specific

16     reference to that.  All I can say is that there is some documentation

17     after the operations in the municipalities in May and June.  There are

18     some references to seizures of weapons listing what's been captured.

19     Invariably they are relatively small numbers, often hunting rifles.  And

20     usually rifles and small-arms.  But in terms of do I have a breakdown of

21     all the armed -- arms that were in the hands of -- were not in the hands

22     of Serbs or the JNA in the Krajina area, no, I don't.  But I don't

23     articulate in my report that there weren't areas where the non-Serb

24     population were armed, or elements of the non-Serb population at least.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I think Mr. Mladic may be seeking to

Page 19598

 1     consult or something --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, close to --

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   When you talk about your report, you told us after the passage

 5     I've just read, you say apparently some of these operations by the

 6     non-Serb population were in fact reactions to the danger from the

 7     abilities of the VRS, and you talk about the procurement of weapons.

 8             Would you agree that arming oneself in 1991, in the spring of

 9     1991, could not have been a reaction to the arming of the SDS or actions

10     of the VRS because the VRS did not exist at that time?

11        A.   I don't argue that there may not have been arming prior to the

12     formation of the VRS.  There may well have been.  But there was also

13     activity after the establishment of the VRS, I'm sure.  I don't deny that

14     there were elements within the non-Serb population in the Krajina that

15     were armed.  But what I do say is that they were not necessarily

16     sophisticated.  They were not armed with predominantly heavy weapons.

17     And they were very much - from what I saw - based on a localised defence

18     unit where they existed.  And invariably they were overcome pretty

19     quickly.

20        Q.   We'll come to this.  Let me just ask you briefly:  Is it the case

21     that on the 22nd of May in Prijedor municipality - the matter that you

22     discuss - it was the Muslims who attacked a vehicle carrying army

23     personnel?

24        A.   On the 22nd of May, yes, there was an attack --

25        Q.   At Hambarine?

Page 19599

 1        A.   -- at Hambarine.  Yes, sir.  There was an attack on military

 2     personnel on that day.  But the --

 3        Q.   On the 24th.  On the 24th, the Muslim attacked a military column

 4     in Kozarac.  That's two days later; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  There was an -- activity there.  But to be --

 6        Q.   Six days later, they attack the town of Prijedor?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite everyone not to overlap with the

 8     previous speaker.  Make a short pause between question and answer.

 9             If you would put your last few questions to the witness,

10     Mr. Lukic, we'll adjourn.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Just the last one.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is it true that after six days after Kozarac, they attacked the

15     city of Prijedor?

16        A.   In Prijedor municipality from the documents I reviewed, there was

17     a planned operation due to take place to disarm groups in that area.

18     There were -- there was an attack on -- on a convoy, certainly, and there

19     was another attack on the 24th, as you say.  They were relatively small

20     attacks.  Maybe tragic for the individuals concerns, of course, but they

21     were low-level.

22             On the 30th -- and in between those dates and the 30th of May,

23     there was large operations conducted by the 43rd Brigade and other

24     elements in Prijedor.  On the 30th, sir, you are correct, there was an

25     attack on Prijedor which started very early on the morning of that day by

Page 19600

 1     an armed group of non-Serbs.  They, I believe, killed a number of two,

 2     maybe, soldiers on the bridge in Prijedor and attack as hotel.  But by

 3     mid-morning that group had been overcome and a number had been captured

 4     and most had been killed.

 5             So, yes, there was an attack in Prijedor.  Yes, there was those

 6     two attacks that you mentioned but this was in the context of the planned

 7     operation to disarm the areas in Prijedor and -- that had been planned in

 8     the days before.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I need one or two minutes for another

10     matter, if this would be the moment.

11             Then, Mr. Brown, I'd like to instruct you to -- in a similar way

12     as I did before, that you should refrain from communicating with whomever

13     about your testimony, whether already given or still to be given.

14             Mr. Traldi, apparently wants to address me.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just before the witness has

16     departed the building for the day, I note he requested an opportunity to

17     review this full document and we're happy to print it up and have it

18     provided to him through the usher, if that's acceptable to the Defence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  No objections.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  So you may proceed and provide,

22     although indirectly, the witness with the document he asked for.

23             You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back tomorrow --

24     on Thursday morning, on 9.30.

25             THE WITNESS:  Sir, thank you.


Page 19601

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We briefly move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

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Page 19602

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25                           [Open session]


Page 19603

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You want to address us in open session, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just to very briefly put on the

 5     record that as you have granted us leave to do, we've provided the usher

 6     with a copy of that last Defence document with just the document number

 7     on it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that will then certainly be in the hands

 9     of the witness.

10             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume Thursday, the

11     21st of November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

14                           November, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.