1 Thursday, 21 November 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 There are two short preliminaries and if the parties would not
11 mind, I'll introduce them myself.
12 First, for the Prosecution. The English translation for P468
13 which was admitted through Dorothea Hanson on the 7th of November,
14 last year, contains pages which do not reflect the B/C/S original, and
15 the Chamber understands that the Prosecution has meanwhile uploaded a
16 correct English translation under doc ID L010-5084. And the Chamber
17 hereby grants leave to the Registry to replace the old English
18 translation by the new corrected one.
19 That's on the record.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Brown.
22 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Brown, perhaps needless to say but you're still
24 bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of
25 your testimony.
1 WITNESS: EWAN McGREGOR BROWN [Resumed]
2 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Lukic will now continue his
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
8 Q. And good morning, Mr. Brown.
9 A. Good morning sir.
10 MR. LUKIC: Before we start, I just want to tender, and I
11 informed the Prosecution this morning, 1D1462. I forgot to do that on
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, I think that's the document that the
15 witness had requested to take with him and so I just request that he be
16 asked if he had any additional comments based on that review before it be
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you -- it seems that you agree with
19 the suggestion. If you do that, we'll deal with admission immediately
20 after that.
21 MR. LUKIC:
22 Q. So, Mr. Brown, you heard this exchange. Do you have anything to
23 add, commenting on this document?
24 A. Well, there is maybe one issue that I would raise. In relation
25 to page 4, there's a section that the JNA are writing about
1 paramilitaries and giving an assessment on the strength of paramilitaries
2 in this -- in this section. And they make mention of the SDA and the HDZ
3 but they don't make any reference whatsoever to the SDS so the Serb
4 organisations. I -- maybe that is some -- in my report, I make mention
5 that there's a document not long after this which identifies that the JNA
6 were providing weapons to volunteers and a linkage with the SDS as well.
7 And it just seems slightly odd that if the JNA are talking about
8 paramilitaries or all groups causing tensions that there's something of a
9 demission on this page in dealing with the strength and organisation of
10 the Serb paramilitaries that were clearly operating at this time.
11 I do, however, accept that the -- much of the document is talking
12 about trying to reduce ethnic tensions but that is an issue that I had
13 mentioned in my report that the JNA were attempting to do that at the
14 same time as very much converging with the Bosnian Serbs and in some
15 cases providing weapons to them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you still want to tender it having heard
17 the additional observations?
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, 1D1462 will receive number ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: Number D415, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D415 is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up 1D1463 in
25 e-court. I believe that we have this document only in English.
1 Q. Mr. Brown, we can see that the Mesihat of the Islamic Association
2 of Croatia and Slovenia receives money from the Arabic countries and uses
3 it to furnish the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina with weapons.
4 Did you come across this document in your work?
5 A. Could I ask the provenance of this document, sir? There's no
6 B/C/S. It's just an English document here. But are you able to furnish
7 me with some idea of where the document has come from and its background?
8 Q. [In English] This document come to us from the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next question would be where did the
10 Prosecution get it from.
11 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, my understanding is that it was one of
12 the underlying materials for an expert report in a different case and we
13 received it in that fashion. I can look into it in a little more detail
14 during the course of the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, whether this is the original version or not is
16 still to be considered.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. In your work, did you ever come across this document?
20 A. No, sir, I didn't.
21 Q. Did you know that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, even
22 before the war broke out, purchased weapons?
23 A. I -- I didn't know. I -- I -- this was not a key fact of my
24 expert report. I'm aware that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 had some control over the Territorial Defence, the republican Territorial
1 Defence, so it would seem quite likely that some, at least, TO weapons
2 may have fallen into the control of the Bosnian government and
3 potentially other methods, including purchasing weapons would have been
4 open to them. But it wasn't [Realtime transcript read in error "was"]
5 an area of my expert report, and I don't know the specifics.
6 Q. Did you know that the weapons were stored in mosques, i.e.,
7 Muslim places of worship?
8 A. Which weapons, sir? The TO weapons or weapons -- other weapons?
9 Q. Any weapons whatsoever. Did you know that? You have just given
10 us two options. Now, did you have information that any of those weapons
11 were stored in mosques?
12 A. I -- I don't remember specific details on that, sir.
13 Q. Very well. Thank you.
14 In paragraph 2.5 of your report, and let me just ask the -- the
15 Honourable Judges whether they have the hard copies of the gentleman's
16 report, or would you perhaps want us to print new versions thereof?
17 In paragraph 2.5, on page 61, as far as I can see, you say that
18 the JNA was deployed in crisis areas such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, and
19 Skender Vakuf.
20 Would you agree with me that the units that are stated here, the
21 343 Motorised Brigade, and the 5th Kosara Brigade were deployed in
22 Prijedor municipality? However, those units hailed from that
23 municipality and people who were recruited into those units were actually
24 natives of Prijedor?
25 A. Yes. On the most part, they were. Not exclusively in the case
1 of the 343rd Brigade, as I -- as I recall, but many people from those
2 brigades were recruited. The brigades went to Western Slavonia and they
3 were redeployed back there. Although in the case of the 6th Brigade,
4 maybe not specifically referenced in this line or this paragraph, I know
5 elements of that brigade did go and deploy into other municipality, such
6 as Krupe and Kljuc.
7 Q. Very well.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you put your question, may I deal with a
9 matter of the record. On page 4, line 23, you can read there, "But it
10 was an area of my expert report." But I understood the witness as having
11 said "... it wasn't an area of my expert report."
12 Is that correct?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, sir.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. The 6th Partizan Brigade, is it correct that its members hailed
17 from Sanski Most and that it was also redeployed into the area from which
18 it was first deployed into Croatia?
19 A. Yes, sir, I think on the whole. There were other officers of the
20 brigade who I believe were not from Sanski Most, but the brigade hailed
21 from that area. Then it went to Western Slavonia. It was redeployed
22 there in the latter part of 1991.
23 Q. In other words, those units that were in Croatia were then
24 redeployed into those territories from which they originally hailed.
25 They were not redeployed there because those were crisis areas.
1 A. I believe the 1st -- the 5th Corps referred to some of those
2 areas as crisis areas. They didn't go back to those areas and draw down
3 or disband or go back to their barracks and -- and go on leave. I know
4 very quickly elements of the 43rd Brigade, when they were deployed to
5 Prijedor, they were deployed to combat locations. So they weren't
6 disbanded or -- or drawn down in any way.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on, I would like tender
9 1D1463 into evidence. This is the previous document that we saw
10 detailing with the purchase of weapons by the Muslim association.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI: I'd suggest it be marked for identification at this
13 time, pending further provenance information.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand from the document itself now
15 that it is supposed to have been signed or confirmed by persons, and for
16 that reason most likely this is not the original. And if it comes from
17 an expert in another case, then it might be important to find out where
18 that expert got it from.
19 Since the witness cannot tell us anything about it, it would be
20 marked for identification. The Chamber is not only interested in the
21 provenance but also whether this is a document which should be bar tabled
22 or whether it should come in through this witness because the witness
23 couldn't tell us anything about it.
24 Please proceed.
25 You need a number for it to be marked for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1463 receives number D416,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D416 is admitted -- is marked for identification.
4 My apologies.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at 1D1464.
6 Q. When it appears on the screen, we will see that the document was
7 issued by the public security station in Prijedor, i.e., the Prijedor
8 police, on the 18th of May, 1992. And the subject are paramilitary
9 formations and their strength in the municipality of Prijedor.
10 Did you include this document into your review? Did you have it
11 at your disposal?
12 A. I -- I -- I don't know if it is footnoted in my report. It's
13 been some time now since I've seen these documents, and I don't know if
14 I've included this one in the Prijedor report I wrote or whether it's
15 footnoted in my Krajina report. I would have to check that. But it is a
16 document that I believe I've seen before. I would have to check that
18 Q. Why I'm asking you this? I'm asking you this because you told us
19 that you did not try to establish a strength of Muslim units. That's why
20 I'm asking you whether you were privy to those documents that dealt with
21 that aspect.
22 And, secondly, why didn't you try to establish the strength of
23 Muslim units?
24 A. I -- I didn't -- I don't believe I said I didn't try to establish
25 the strength of Muslim units. What I said was that the -- a study of
1 the -- in -- detailed study of the non-Serb forces was not the core
2 component of this report but there were references in the Krajina
3 documents that clearly indicated that elements were armed. I make that
4 clear in my report. I do make mention of specific incidents in -- in the
5 Krajina municipalities, including incidents that resulted in the deaths
6 of VRS soldiers. I make that clear in the report too.
7 This document does seem to give an indication of strengths in --
8 in that area at the time, but it doesn't go against my general conclusion
9 that that strength is relatively limited. We're talking about
10 platoon-size strength here, company-size strength which is relatively
11 small numbers, certainly in comparison to the strength of the 5th Corps,
12 and that these units are predominantly armed with small-arms and
13 hunting rifles, as opposed to the type of weaponry that was available to
14 the 5th Corps and 1st Krajina Corps.
15 So I -- I did not study in detail aspects, all aspects, of the
16 non-Serb strength and opposition. But where it was evident in the
17 Krajina documents, I made that clear, and I made my own assertions that I
18 did not think that the strength was in any way comparable to that of the
19 5th Corps/1st Krajina Corps. And where it was evident, it was relatively
20 lightly armed and in relatively small strength. That's not to say that
21 they did not conduct operations. They did.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if I may just get clarification.
23 Am I right that from your question you're insinuating that the --
24 these paramilitaries are Muslim paramilitaries?
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where from this document do we find that they
2 are -- they are Muslim?
3 MR. LUKIC: Since it's coming from Serbian side on the
4 18th of April [sic] after the take-over of power in Prijedor. Obviously
5 that -- Serbian units wouldn't be marked as paramilitary at that time by
6 this side.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Why not?
8 MR. LUKIC: The power was over -- overtaken on the
9 30th of April [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... but why wouldn't
11 Serbians describe their own paramilitaries as paramilitary?
12 MR. LUKIC: And also you can see through the names of the
13 villages that -- first Ljubija, Donja Ljubija is Muslim-Croat village.
14 Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Biscani are Muslim villages, Carakovo is Muslim
15 village, and Kozarac is Muslim village.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we agree that you are making deductions? You
17 don't have hard evidence to say these are Muslims. You are making
18 deduction because I don't want to go into further arguments with you.
19 MR. LUKIC: Okay. If you think that I am making deductions, but
20 I think it is obvious from the documents.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you think you are making the obvious
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stop it and let's --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Let's stop it and [overlapping speakers]...
1 MR. LUKIC: I will move on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you want to add to the decision?
3 MR. TRALDI: Just two quick things, Your Honour.
4 First at the previous page, page 9, line 20 and 21, Mr. Lukic was
5 reported -- recorded, rather, to describe this document as dated the
6 18th of April.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]... May. The power was taken
8 on the 30th of May.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What -- I take it that --
10 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- you would like to have that clarified.
12 MR. TRALDI: I believe he just has, Mr. President.
13 The second is simply that the document is in fact cited in the
14 Krajina report at footnote 637, and that information is -- obviously it's
15 available to the Defence as well as it is to us.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, Mr. Lukic, the whole issue of not paying
17 attention to it seems to be totally moot. Because if it is footnoted,
18 then that information is supporting or underlying the report.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. In paragraph 2.7 of your report, you say forcible take-over of
22 certain municipalities by the SDS; namely, Bosanska Krupa and Prijedor,
23 amongst others.
24 Did you establish when the Muslims started militarily organise
25 themselves in those two municipalities?
1 A. No, I didn't look in detail at that. But by the relatively quick
2 nature of the take-overs, it didn't seem that the non-Serb population
3 were particularly well -- well armed or well-able to stop that take --
4 over, if that was their intention.
5 MR. LUKIC: Before I move further, I would like to tender this
6 footnoted document, 1D1464.
7 MR. TRALDI: I don't have any objection, Your Honour. I believe
8 it is also part of a document that we tendered on Tuesday.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If it is, then we don't need to have it in evidence.
10 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that Mr. Lukic maybe check P2869 which is
11 what I believe it's included in.
12 MR. LUKIC: I will --
13 MR. TRALDI: The relevant is page 4 of the English of that
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we see that document, page 4 of P2869, then
17 we can clarify it?
18 Indeed, it seems to be the same.
19 MR. LUKIC: It is the same, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Are we looking at page 4 of the document or ... yes.
21 Okay. Then there's no need to tender it, Mr. Lukic. I take it, you
22 would agree.
23 MR. LUKIC: I withdraw my proposal then.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Did you take into account in that the conflict
25 in Bosanska Krupa broke out because three Serbian young men were
1 seriously wounded in Arapusa?
2 A. No, I -- I -- I didn't take that into account into the specifics
3 of that municipality. That may well have been the case. There were
4 other incidents in Prijedor, for example, where there were flash-point
5 incidents, I think, where individuals were attacked. But I didn't study
6 Bosanska Krupa in that detail.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of reference, in
8 P413, which is an OTP exhibit -- perhaps we could show it on the screen
9 briefly. 413. We need page 4 in English and we'll focus on what's at
10 the end of this page, and in B/C/S we also need page 4, paragraph 4.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: We are on page 3 in the English and not page 4,
12 unless you are talking about e-court pages.
13 MR. LUKIC: In e-court, yes.
14 [In English] One second.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry. Just one second.
17 [Interpretation] It begins on page 5 in the English version in
18 e-court, but it's the fourth page of the document itself, and it
19 continues onto the following page.
20 Q. The sentence that we need is the first full sentence on page 5
21 or, rather, the following page in the English version:
22 "The incident in Arapusa, which occurred in the night" --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please turn to the top of --
24 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's okay now.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can see it on the screen:
2 "The incident which occurred in Arapusa on the night of
3 19th/20th April when Muslim extremists seriously wounded three young
4 Serbian men and the visit of Fikret Abdic to Bosanska Krupa, were the
5 last harbingers of the war in this region."
6 Q. You have told us that you did not take this into account. So as
7 this document has already been admitted, I will move on.
8 A. Is it -- is it possible to read the previous page, sir?
9 Q. All right. Please just excuse me, I was told that you were to
10 finish your testimony by Friday; is that correct? Or do you have some
11 time next week as well?
12 A. I do have an appointment in Brussels on -- next week, but if I
13 have to come back, I'm sure I can change that, sir.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, there was a kind of an agreement among
15 the parties. This morning you spent [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 MR. LUKIC: We have to move faster. We cannot read all the
17 documents here in the courtroom.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you wasted quite some time on asking
19 about a document which you said the witness would have ignored and then
20 in -- of course, the witness would not know by heart -- with the
21 assistance of the Prosecution it turned out that you had not properly
22 studied the report and you had not looked at what the witness had
23 presented. And then to blame the witness for seeking context, you should
24 consider that you can't ask a witness to just focus on one or two lines
25 and then say, Well, take it takes too much time if you want to see it in
1 context. That's your -- let's not at this moment not further deal with
2 the matter.
3 We've heard what the witness said. But I'm urging you to use
4 your time in a productive way in the interests of your case and your
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI: Any other case where the witness wants to look at a
10 document and Mr. Lukic would prefer to continue, we're happy to adopt the
11 same approach we took Tuesday: Print the document so the witness can be
12 provided with it by the usher and review it at the break.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Thank you for the proposal, Mr. Traldi.
16 I'll move on.
17 Only I received information that the document is not exactly the
18 same we proposed. And the Prosecution -- since their document has two
19 pages and it's -- that document is from 14th of May and 18th of May and
20 our document is only one of those from 18th of May.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is two documents in one. The four pages,
22 the latter part, that is page 4 is the same as page 2 in English. That
23 gives the context and the background because it's all about the dispatch.
24 Would you -- if you want to separate it, you're free to do so.
25 If you want to leave it as it is then --
1 MR. LUKIC: We will leave it as it is. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Further on, in paragraph 2.75 of your report, you say that the
5 Serbs used incidents of low intensity as a justification for mass
6 attacks. You also say that the consequence of these attacks was the fact
7 that 7.000 people were moved into prisoner camps.
8 Did you analyse how many of the 7.000 people were civilians and
9 how many were fighters?
10 A. I'm not sure I used the word "mass attacks" in that paragraph,
11 sir, but I take your point.
12 The Krajina Corps document - I know -- I believe there is one on
13 the 1st of June - put of that 7.000, 5.000 in Trnopolje and 2.000 in
14 Manjaca or Omarska, I believe. It may not necessarily be exactly clear
15 but it would seem roughly that the 5.000 were civilians in Trnopolje and
16 at least on that point they reference around 2.000 as fighters. However,
17 many of the Manjaca camp documents -- or a number of the Manjaca camp
18 documents make reference to the fact that during their processing they
19 find that large numbers of those were not fighters but who were civilians
20 who happened to be in the fields or houses in -- but rounded up and sent
21 to camps nevertheless.
22 So in specific numbers, no, the documents don't say exactly the
23 totals. But it would seem that the overwhelming majority were not
24 fighters and that that is known by the 1st Krajina Corps.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, you are referring to paragraph 2.75 of
1 the report. But I don't find any paragraph with that number in the
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I find it at paragraph -- page 87, but it doesn't
4 seem to relate to what is being discussed. Maybe there is ...
5 Is it page 87?
6 MR. LUKIC: Eighty-seven. Page 87. And the paragraph is
7 275 [sic] I have cut it out here. And it's telling about 7.000.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We found it, and I think that's what you referred
10 to. Let's always be clear 2.75 is not exactly the same as 275. That may
11 cause come confusion.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] We have discussed Prijedor, the attack on
15 Hambarine -- or, rather, in Hambarine, the attack in Kozarac, the
16 counter-attack on Kozarac, the attack in Prijedor. Did you establish in
17 your work that these were organised attacks which were part of a single
18 plan, or do you believe them to be individual incidents, all of these?
19 A. Are you talking about the attacks by the VRS or are you talking
20 about the attacks that the non-Serbs conducted on the VRS?
21 Q. I'm talking about the non-Serbs who launched attacks against VRS
23 A. I argue that in the report that these are low-level incidents.
24 For example, the attack on Hambarine was the attack on a check-point.
25 The Kozarac attack was -- was on a travelling convoy, an ambush. The
1 attack on Prijedor at the end of May was a slightly larger affair in that
2 they tried to -- killed some soldiers on a bridge and tried to attack a
3 hotel, which they set fire to, but they were overwhelmed very quickly.
4 These were relatively low-level incidents, not necessarily something I
5 saw as a widespread co-ordinated attack in that municipality or around
6 municipalities in that area. There were -- there was an incident in
7 Kljuc a little bit around that time. But, again, it was an attack on a
8 convoy. And these were relatively low-level -- relatively low-level
9 incidents. And the response was overwhelming and quick and resulted in
10 thousands of people being taken from those municipalities.
11 So if the question is: Do I think it was -- the attacks
12 happened? Yes, they did. But my point is that they were small
13 incidents. And around that time anyway, the Bosnian Serbs had taken
14 control of those municipalities and were planning operations involving
15 the police and the military to disarm units in those areas.
16 So they happened within that context, not part of some planned,
17 large-scale operation that I saw from the documents that the non-Serb
18 population were conducting.
19 Q. Have you heard of plans to join this part of Prijedor with Bihac,
20 precisely by these military actions?
21 A. No, I haven't. And I wouldn't necessarily see attacking a
22 check-point on a road or ambushing a convoy as indicative of a wider plan
23 to secure territory that would link Bihac and Prijedor. I think it might
24 take a little bit more than that.
25 Q. Did you come across a list of members of Territorial Defence in
1 Kozarac - I mean, the Muslims - who were around 3500 in their number
2 while you were writing your report?
3 A. I believe that is a document I referenced in my Prijedor report,
4 yes. And I think I discussed that there. Is this that handwritten list
5 of individuals? It's some time since I've seen that document, and I
6 think when I reviewed it many years ago that this seemed to be a proposal
7 or a list of names of a localised structure that they were trying to
8 establish. And that many of them had -- I'm -- if this is the right
9 document, many of them had few weapons. So I do remember that document.
10 But did I see 3.500 armed individuals in Prijedor when the attacks
11 happened in late -- late May, no, I didn't. And I didn't see evidence,
12 documentary evidence, of weapons seizures that would indicate that they
13 had three and a half thousand armed men, nor did I see from the documents
14 that the VRS forces that operated there can -- were -- were having to
15 overcome a strength of that size and that -- the fact that they took
16 control of the territory within days would seem indicative that that
17 document was either a planning document or an intention that was not
19 Q. Whether the document was planned or not, do you remember that
20 there were signatures in this document, signatures of people whose names
21 have been typed?
22 A. I'll take it at face value that's what it was, sir. It's a long
23 time since I've seen the document.
24 Q. All right. Fine. Now we'll move to the Kljuc municipality. In
25 your report, also on page 87, that we are already at --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the previous --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Indiscernible]
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- document you are talking about, you didn't
4 identify it. The witness apparently knew it. You put a useless question
5 to the witness whether he came across that because he says, I referred to
6 it in my report. You can't do that if you haven't come across. Then you
7 didn't ask any question. The witness said -- assuming that that was the
8 question that he gave the explanation, he says he has given in his report
9 already, and there was something about signatures and there was no
10 follow-up on that either. So there may be signatures. There may not be
11 signatures. What that means -- it's totally unclear to us, so that's
12 another couple of minutes wasted.
13 MR. LUKIC: I think that we saw that document before in this
15 JUDGE ORIE: But if you tell the Court -- yes, if you think that
16 every list of 3.000 that I would immediately know by heart what it is,
17 then give a clear reference to what the report is and I'll look at that
18 on my screen. If you don't put it on the screen, I'll do it myself for
20 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] So now we shall move on to the Kljuc
24 municipality, also on this page --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I have to deliver a decision and
1 that is a decision which we would prefer not to delay.
2 Therefore, I suggest that we take a break a little bit earlier.
3 We would like to see you back in a little bit over 20 minute, Mr. Brown,
4 and you may follow the usher.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. TRALDI: While he is exiting there was the one document he
9 had asked to read. If the Defence -- it's the Krupe report. If the
10 Defence has no objection, we'd provide it to the usher to give to him
11 over the break.
12 MR. LUKIC: We never have any objection for the witness to
13 analyse any document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Only to read. That takes too much time.
15 No, I -- the Madam Registrar, you'll take care that once the
16 usher has returned that he'll provide his services.
17 Then I would like to deliver the Chamber's decision on the
18 Defence notice, objection and motion, to bar Witness Treanor from
19 testifying as an expert that was filed on the 25th of October, 2013.
20 The Prosecution has not responded to this motion. It provided
21 the Defence with the expert report through a notice of the
22 25th of September of this year.
23 With regard to the applicable law concerning expert evidence, the
24 Chamber refers to its decision concerning Richard Butler, a decision
25 which was filed on 19th of October, 2012.
1 With regard to Treanor's expertise, the Defence submits that
2 Treanor should be disqualified as an expert and the Prosecution should be
3 barred from presenting his evidence. According to the Prosecution,
4 Treanor was a senior search officer in the leadership research team of
5 the Office of the Prosecutor. Treanor's work consisted primarily of
6 collecting and analysing original documentary and published material
7 relating to, inter alia, the Serbian Democratic Party, or the SDS, and
8 the Bosnian Serb leadership. His work culminated in several expert
9 reports which have been used in different cases before the Tribunal. The
10 Prosecution submits that he will provide evidence on the political and
11 military background of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia and the
12 development of the Serbian leadership before, during, and after the war.
13 Based on the foregoing, the Chamber is satisfied that Treanor is
14 an expert who can assist the Chamber on matters related to the political
15 and military background to the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, and, in
16 particular, the SDS and the Bosnian Serb leadership.
17 As for any arguments related to the content and methodology of
18 the Treanor report and about the impartially or independence of Treanor,
19 the Chamber considers that such matters can and should be addressed
20 during the examination of the witness. With regard to the Defence
21 request to cross-examine the witness, the Chamber notes that he will be
22 called to testify and the Defence will therefore have an opportunity to
23 cross-examine him.
24 Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides that Treanor may
25 testify as an expert witness and denies the Defence request to bar the
1 Prosecution from presenting his evidence.
2 Finally, the Prosecution indicates that it only intends to rely
3 on specific portions of Treanor's reports and it lists in its notice the
4 relevant paragraphs. The Chamber understands that only the portions
5 indicated are being tendered into evidence, and will confine its
6 assessment of the admissibility of the reports to them. It also expects
7 the parties' examination of the witness to be focussed on these portions.
8 And this concludes the Chamber's decision.
9 We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be brought
13 in, Mr. Lukic the Chamber has considered your question to the witness,
14 whether he was available next week. The Chamber expects you to conclude
15 your cross-examination tomorrow and that is based on our observing the
16 way in which you conducted your cross-examination, relevance, time spent
17 on matters without any follow-up. Many reasons. It's monitoring
18 carefully your cross-examination which led us to this conclusion.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. Brown, we left it off with paragraph 2.75 of your report. In
23 the second half of that paragraph, you say in Kljuc, several incidents
24 happened even before the attack on that municipality: The killing of a
25 Serb policeman; an ambush on a bus that transported recruits through
1 Sanski Most; seven Serbian soldiers arrested by members of the Muslim TO.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] and I would now like to call up D358.
3 This document was issued by the public security station in Kljuc.
4 It was issued in July 1992.
5 We're interested in page 10 in the B/C/S version. The same
6 information can be found on page 6 of the English version of the
8 Q. I will go quickly through the document. Under number 1 here, we
9 can see that an ambush was set up in the Ramici sector. It is stated in
10 here that the assistant commander of the police station in Kljuc,
11 Dusan Stojkovic, was fatally wounded, and also that some other police
12 officers were wounded.
13 On the following page, in the English version, under
14 bullet point 2, it says that a military convoy was attacked. The two
15 soldiers were killed and a lorry driver as well. That six soldiers were
16 seriously injured and 29 sustained slight injures. Of those who were
17 wounded, four succumbed to their wounds.
18 Under 3, we can see that an ambush was set up in the Tocina
20 Under 4, that the road between the villages of Velagici and
21 Laniste was blown up.
22 Under 5, we can see that there was an attack on the check-point
23 in Velagici. It says here that a few days before that, on the
24 25th of May, 1992, and you will find that under bullet point 6, seven
25 Serb soldiers were captured.
1 My question to you, sir, is this: Do you consider this to be
2 isolated incidents that had nothing to do with each other; or would you
3 say that all those things were synchronised?
4 A. Well, I -- I can't say for sure that they were synchronised.
5 They're obviously all taking -- occurring in and around the same areas
6 which, I believe, are non-Serb villages. So I don't doubt these
7 incidents occurred, and I make mention of them in my report.
8 Q. All of those things happened on the same day, didn't they?
9 A. It -- it would appear so.
10 Q. So what would be your answer then? Were those things
11 synchronised or not?
12 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has answered that question that he
13 doesn't know that it -- and he says it was on the same day. That's it,
14 Mr. -- that's --
15 Unless the witness has any further knowledge. He says he doesn't
16 have it.
17 I take it that it's Defence's position that it was synchronised.
18 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
19 Q. [Interpretation] All of those things happened far from the
20 front line, didn't they?
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where was the front line, Mr. Lukic?
22 MR. LUKIC: One of the front lines was in Croatia. And the other
23 one is south, toward Travnik.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't -- I -- I wouldn't necessarily agree
1 that a front line in that classical sense. There was conflict,
2 certainly, in other areas. Obviously there was convict going on in
3 Croatia but there were -- and there was places like the corridor. At
4 this time, it -- there wasn't -- it's not a classic war where there was
5 necessarily very, very clearly defined front lines. There did come that
6 time when territory was marked out. This is not taking place in classic
7 front lines, but there were operations going on in and around this time
8 in those municipalities.
9 So it's a little bit less clear than maybe you -- you articulate.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. In your report, you characterise all of those things as minor
12 incidents. However, we can see that, as a result of those incidents,
13 50 Serbian soldiers became disabled in the course of just one day.
14 According to you, what should happen to qualify something as more
15 than just a minor incident?
16 A. I -- I don't downplay that these incidents, you know, had an
17 importance and that they -- that they occurred.
18 My -- my contention is that certainly in relation to what
19 happened as a result of these incidents and the operations that took
20 place in and around that time on the municipalities when the response of
21 the VRS was to take control of these areas incredibly quickly and to
22 round up hundreds and thousands of individuals from those areas and to
23 take them into detention. That's the contention. I'm not -- I don't
24 argue that -- these certainly weren't minor incidents from the victims'
25 perspective. And in Kljuc, in particular, there were a number of
1 incidents and some of them related to Kljuc, some of them related to JNA
2 soldiers that were coming from Knin, I believe, so I don't downplay the
3 incidents, in particular. But in -- certainly they were relatively minor
4 in -- in relation to the response and what happened later.
5 You know, I don't downplay them. But they still were relatively
6 small incidents with relatively small numbers of casualties.
7 Q. So what would then be your position? Was the VRS supposed to
8 react; or was it supposed to sit and wait for further attacks and then
10 A. My argument is that many of these incident are occurring in and
11 around already pre-planned operations to take control of territory.
12 After the 12th of May, in particular, assembly session, there was a
13 desire to control the territory that was deemed Serb. So, yes, there
14 were these incidents, but they took place predominantly in non-Serb
15 villages with that backdrop.
16 Now, in relation to what should the VRS, at this time, it was the
17 VRS, do or the JNA do, if they're attacked, clearly militaries have a
18 right to respond to attacks and to take proportionate, legal measures in
19 order to respond to those attacks, which could be to try and identify
20 perpetrators which might be taking military action in that regard. Of
21 course that's the rights of -- of -- of militaries if they're attacked.
22 But bearing in mind this backdrop of a desire to control territory, the
23 operations that were conducted in and around that time by the VRS, did
24 not seem to be the sort of response, a measured proportion response, to
25 this type of -- of activity. What happened was that within a day or so,
1 or two days of this -- these incidents in May, large number, hundreds of
2 individuals in Kljuc municipality -- well, firstly there were attacks on
3 non-Serb villages, and hundreds of individuals from Kljuc municipality
4 were taken into detention camps for which they were subsequently not
5 released until many months later and sent as refugees. That, for me,
6 does not seem to be a proportionate and measured response to this type of
7 activity, if that's what it was.
8 Q. Your response, which is quite elaborated, is based on the
9 assumption that you analysed the military actions of Muslims and Croats
10 and their strength. However, would you agree with me that in your
11 analysis you did not deal with the military activities of the Muslim and
12 Croat militaries at all?
13 A. No, that was not the main focus of my -- of my -- of my report.
14 The Krajina Corps archive documents did make some references to armed
15 groups. They themselves were not incredibly detailed about the strengths
16 and compositions of -- of armed groups in their own documents, and the
17 fact that the VRS was able to use the weaponry that they had which, in
18 essence, was JNA material, and to take over the -- these areas incredibly
19 quickly leads me to the conclusion that whatever armed resistance or
20 whatever armed groups were operating in these municipalities were not
21 particularly strong and were not particularly well armed, certainly in
22 relation to the weaponry of the VRS.
23 But, no, I did not look in detail at every single issue relating
24 to the military strength of the Muslims and Croats.
25 Q. You will agree with me, then, that for a proper assessment of a
1 military on the ground, one should first start by assessing the strength
2 of the enemy side.
3 A. Sir, all I can say is that I lay out at the beginning of my
4 report that there are limitations to the report. I put that at the
5 beginning. This is a report based predominantly on the archives of the
6 1st Krajina Corps. It is not a report on every single aspect relating to
7 the conflict in Bosnia, let alone every single aspect relating to the
8 conflict in the Krajina.
9 I used the materials as best I could. I think I might still be
10 writing it if I had to look at every single aspect. But there are
11 limitations, and I accept those, and I point those out at the beginning
12 of the report.
13 Q. Our suggestions is that your methodology is completely wrong, not
14 that it is limited. That you studied the situation on the ground by
15 studying just one side, completely ignoring the other.
16 I would like to ask you this: Were you privy to the
17 documentation issued by the BiH army while you were a member of the
18 Prosecution team of this Tribunal?
19 A. I was aware that other analysts were looking at other aspects in
20 different parts of Bosnia and the conflict there, but I did not look at
21 BiH material in relation to the writing of this report. It was formed
22 predominantly on the basis of the Krajina archive.
23 Q. When you were talking about the strength -- on the lack of
24 strength of the Muslim side, did you come across the information that of
25 the 65.000 members of the 1st Krajina Corps, 2.953 were killed and that
1 13.324 soldiers were wounded in combat with the Croatian and Muslim
3 A. In -- in which period are you talking about, sir? Is this 1992
4 or is it through the war?
5 Q. Did you ever come across this information at all? And I'm
6 referring specifically to the year 1992.
7 A. I'm aware that a large number of soldiers in the Krajina Corps
8 were killed. The Krajina Corps was not just operating in the
9 municipalities we've been talking about now, but they were on other parts
10 of their -- their border. They suffered casualties, some casualties in
11 operation corridor, for example, and the continuing operations to expand
12 that corridor. They had casualties in operations against Jajce, in
13 particular, and defending the border in Travnik, Bugojno, that sort of
14 southern area, and they also launched operations, I believe, in the sort
15 of Doboj Majevica hill area. So they were conducting military operations
16 throughout the -- 1992, and they did suffer casualties, absolutely.
17 They also suffered a very small number of casualties during these
18 municipality operations but the bulk, I believe, were to do with these
19 other areas.
20 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. TRALDI: I apologise for intervening. I've located the
23 reference for the casualty numbers Mr. Lukic referred to that I think he
24 has in mind. But if he has a reference for the 65.000 number, I -- I'd
25 appreciate it, of the total strength of the corps.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from that, Mr. Lukic, could you
2 also, by looking at the source for the 2.953, to tell us whether that is
3 1992 only or mainly 1992, whether we have any further --
4 MR. LUKIC: That data --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- details.
6 MR. LUKIC: -- I have for 1992.
7 JUDGE ORIE: For 1992.
8 MR. LUKIC: Later on, that strength of this corps increased.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What's the -- Mr. -- the 65.000 are found
10 where, but ...
11 MR. TRALDI: That was my question. That's -- the 65.000 number
12 is the number that I hadn't been able to find, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Where does that come from?
14 MR. LUKIC: Comes from transcript I found in -- from the
15 cross-examination of this witness --
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's not in evidence before us, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: The evidence. We have 1D1474, that this data was
18 presented to this witness, if you want to look at it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, did the witness then confirm --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]... I could not -- find that
21 the document that this transcript is referring to, but I'm sure we will
22 find it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what exactly is the source for 2.953?
24 Where does the Chamber find that in the evidence; or is it not in
25 evidence at this moment?
1 MR. LUKIC: I'm sure we will provide that in the future. But if
2 you want, we can see 1474. It's a transcript from Stanisic and
3 Zupljanin. It's in e-court --
4 JUDGE ORIE: You say it's 1474 --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- is the page number in Stanisic and Zupljanin. Is
7 that --
8 MR. LUKIC: Sixty-seven is in e-court, page number. In
9 e-court, 67.
10 JUDGE ORIE: E-court of what exactly?
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The number of the document is 1D1474.
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, 1D --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's a Defence document. The last on the list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And it has not been put on our screens yet.
15 MR. LUKIC: Not yet. If you want, we can put it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'd like to --
17 MR. LUKIC: Can we have then D1474 in e-court. We need page 67,
18 lines 9 -- 17, 18. This is the data I found.
19 Obviously there was some document. It is mentioning the page 47
20 and there are losses per month. So -- but I was not able to locate the
21 document by the number given in this transcript.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- it's rather mysterious what I read there,
23 but ...
24 Would you put a question to the witness. Because, until now, I
25 see the number appearing in a question rather than in -- in the answer.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Brown, do you remember the cross-examination in the Stanisic
3 case? Were you shown this particular document which supported the
4 questions put to you?
5 A. I don't remember the specific document. It may well have been
6 the combat analysis report. It may well have been the 1st Krajina Corps'
7 own combat analysis report, I'm not sure. But I thought the strength of
8 the corps was higher than that. But if this document articulates that
9 2.000, nearly 3.000 soldiers had been killed, then I take that at face
10 value. As I explained before, I don't -- I don't deny that the corps was
11 involved in operations, other operations in other areas for -- for some
13 MR. LUKIC: I think that we cannot go any further at this moment.
14 Your Honour, I would move on to the next area.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] And now let us discuss forceable transfer.
18 In your report, under 1.43 and 1.44, you criticise the work of
19 the Serbian members of parliament. We already discussed that and you
20 have the minutes of that particular session.
21 You singled out General Mladic's position as one of those who was
22 against the transfer of the population. In your work, did you come
23 across the fact that other peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina participated
24 in the negotiations that resulted in the division of municipalities along
25 the ethnic lines?
1 A. Just to go back to your point I single out Mladic's position as
2 being against the transfer of population, I suggest that he warns, or I
3 think in my phrase is articulates a note of caution about this issue of
4 moving peoples and what it may mean for the leadership if -- if this
5 becomes known.
6 Now, the question you've asked is, did I come across the fact
7 that other peoples in Bosnia participated in negotiations that resulted
8 in the division of municipalities along ethnic lines. Can you -- are you
9 asking whether I knew about what was going on in known Serb
10 municipalities or in territories inside BH republic? Then the answer is
11 it's not part of my report. I don't -- I don't know what was going on in
12 those municipalities, but I do know that there were movements out in
13 other areas of Serbs where they were vulnerable. But it wasn't a key
14 area of my report.
15 Q. [In English] I'm sorry if I was not clear. Do you know about
16 negotiations done by Muslims and Croats in Krajina area with Serbs on
17 division of municipalities? And have you found it in your work?
18 A. No. The -- the focus of my report was not about the political
19 negotiations, per se. It was based on the military archives and the
20 military documents. I am aware that -- that there were negotiations in
21 certain municipalities about -- but it's not an area that I'm -- that I'm
22 really across. It wasn't really the focus of my work.
23 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Now I would like us to look at a
24 document which is already an exhibit. It's P2366.
25 Have you come across such documents while preparing your report,
1 documents from Republika Srpska? And I would ask you to focus primarily
2 on item 1 of this document ordering that the soldiers who have acted
3 inhumanely, if they're prone to committing genocide against the
4 population, should be sent away, also those who have a tendency to
5 destroy and burn down buildings. And let us also look at item number 6,
6 please. In B/C/S, it's on the following page. In this item, the brigade
7 commanders are tasked with taking disciplinary and legal action.
8 First of all, do you remember if you possessed this document at
9 the time when you wrote the report?
10 A. It's not a document I recognise. I -- I don't know if I
11 footnoted this in my report or not, but it's not a document that I
12 specifically recognise. I do, however, make reference to a number of
13 documents, other documents, of a similar nature which have been passed
14 down by the -- the corps and, in fact, the Main Staff in and around this
15 period about similar issues that they are to take measures against an
16 array of offences, including some of the ones identified here. And those
17 I have referenced in my report.
18 Q. Even though you can see the English version on the screen, I
19 would ask for your report to be shown on the screen; P2859, please. And
20 we will need the extract in both languages.
21 In English, we need page 97, moving on to page 98. And, in the
22 B/C/S version, we need page 100. We are interested in paragraph 2.100.
23 And let us read -- in the last sentence in the English version
24 that we can see now. Then we'll move onto the text page:
25 [In English] "The same report also noted that because Muslim
1 extremists had failed to hand in their weapons, the Muslim population of
2 the area of Lisnja village in Prnjavor municipality had been expelled."
3 In B/C/S, we have to return to the previous page, paragraph --
5 [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, the word under quotation
6 marks is, "moved out." In the English version, it reads, "expelled."
7 In our view, there is a mistake in translation and, therefore,
8 the conclusions cannot be the same.
9 Therefore, we would like to call up the document that you are
10 referring to here, and we need 65 ter 02837. It's a Prosecution
11 document. And we're interested in item 2. That's where that text comes
13 We can also see the difference here in the B/C/S version. I
14 shall read it, the last paragraph in this section and it's also the last
15 paragraph under item 2 in the English version. In the English language
16 it says -- it's in the area in English and I shall read it in B/C/S:
17 "In the Derventa sector there is still occasional artillery fire
18 whereas in the Lisnja village sector, due to the fact that the Muslim
19 extremists have not handed over their weapons, the Muslim population has
20 been moved out."
21 According to the original document, the population has been moved
22 out. Would you accept that due to heavy fighting, it was normal to
23 remove the civilian population, if that was possible?
24 A. It doesn't say there was heavy fighting in Lisnja at that time in
25 this report. No, I wouldn't say it's -- it's -- I wouldn't say it's
1 normal or -- to move the population out. I -- this seems -- I -- I defer
2 to the translation of expelled or moving out. I don't speak B/C/S so I
3 was working off the translations. This seems to be similar to what
4 happened in other municipalities: Deadlines to hand over weapons, either
5 weapons not being handed over or not enough, or not handing them over,
6 and operations which resulted in large numbers of non-Serbs being moved
7 out or moving out of those areas after being taken under control by the
8 VRS forces.
9 Q. Let us look at the next document now. It's 65 ter 08012; another
10 Prosecution document.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, at the same time, you put to the witness
12 heavy fighting. The document reads: There continues to be occasional
13 artillery fire.
14 Occasional artillery fire. Is it the position of the Defence
15 that for that reason you have to move out the whole of the population?
16 Is that the position taken by the Defence? Then it's clear to us.
17 MR. LUKIC: Our position is definitely. If there is fighting to
18 start, army has a duty to remove civilian population, if possible.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which army, the attacking army or the defending
21 MR. LUKIC: Any army.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any army.
23 MR. LUKIC: It should be [overlapping speakers]... should be
25 JUDGE ORIE: And in the Defence's position is there any
1 obligation to allow them to return to where they had been removed from?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, that's clear. And you say occasionally
4 artillery fire, as described here, would -- nevertheless would justify to
5 take out the whole of the population?
6 THE WITNESS: I think so --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon. I'm asking for the position of
8 the Defence.
9 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it is introduction for heavy fighting,
10 occasional --
11 JUDGE ORIE: So you say whenever there is a possibility of heavy
12 fighting in the future, and we could ask the witness whether he has
13 analysed what happened at this moment in time, whether the fighting was
14 over or whether there was still a lot of fighting to be expected, but
15 even then you already removed the whole of the population. And that's
16 the position of the Defence. Okay. That's clear.
17 Could you tell us what is described here as the Muslim population
18 of the area of Lisnja village having been removed, whether, on the basis
19 of the military situation at that moment, that heavy fighting could be
20 expected in the near future of that moment.
21 THE WITNESS: I would separate Derventa and Lisnja. So they're
22 two different areas. So Lisnja is in Prnjavor municipality, I believe,
23 and Derventa is elsewhere. So I think they're actually referring to
24 shelling in one area then what's happening Prnjavor, in Lisnja, is --
25 even though they haven't written it well.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's -- then I stand corrected for
2 misunderstanding what perhaps is not clearly written.
3 In Lisnja village was there -- to your knowledge, was there any
4 heavy fighting ongoing at the time when the population [Realtime
5 transcript read in error "proposition"] was removed?
6 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Not to your knowledge. Was the military situation
8 such that you could expect in the near future on from the moment when the
9 population was removed that heavy fighting would break out?
10 THE WITNESS: I did not see in the document, sir, that the
11 Krajina Corps was operating in a military -- in military operations in
12 Prnjavor in that way. I -- I didn't see combat action at all. And I
13 think this is related very much to the issue of the disarmament
14 deadlines. But I -- to answer your question, I didn't see heavy fighting
15 in Lisnja around this time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from what you saw, was there any objective
17 reason to expect, although it did not happen, that such heavy fighting
18 would develop in the Lisnja area?
19 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't see anything to give me that
20 impression, sir.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, Mr. Lukic on page 37, line 19,
25 in the question by Judge Orie, he said, "... ongoing at the time when the
1 population was removed." What's written instead of "population" is
2 "proposition." If that could be corrected.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I should slow down now and then as well.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Is it correct that at the time Derventa, which is the next town
7 after Prnjavor was under Croatian control and that the line was in that
8 area between Derventa and Prnjavor? I mean the confrontation line.
9 A. I don't believe the confrontation line was close to Lisnja. But,
10 yes, there was operations in the municipality of Derventa, which was part
11 of that corridor area.
12 Q. All right. Thank you. Now let us look at the document which we
13 have on the screen.
14 We can see a document which is entitled: "Instructions." We
15 have already mentioned the Arapusa village. So these are instructions
16 for the evacuation of the population and refugees from the Arapusa local
17 commune. And it reads:
18 "Pursuant to the order by the War Staff Command of the Serbian
19 municipality of Bosanska Krupa dated 29th of April, 1992, which orders
20 evacuation of residents from the Arapusa local commune together with
21 refugees from Bosanska Krupa, the Executive Committee of the Arapusa
22 local commune has completed preparations for the evacuation of the
24 And then the first bullet:
25 "All residents of Arapusa and refugees from Bosanska Krupa, 460
1 people in total, will be evacuated."
2 In B/C/S version, we need the following page, please. And in the
3 English version, I'm going to read out the penultimate paragraph. It
4 reads, I quote:
5 "On the basis of the agreement with the War Staff Command of the
6 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa (with Mr. Miroslav Vjestica), as
7 soon as peacetime conditions have been created, the command is obliged to
8 ensure the safe return of the residents to their homes in Arapusa and the
9 refugees to Bosanska Krupa."
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is it the position of the Defence that they were
11 returned when peacetime conditions came?
12 MR. LUKIC: The position is also if it's possible.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The question was not to explain why it may not have
14 happened. Judge Moloto asked whether it's the Defence's position that
15 they returned. That's a simple question.
16 Next question could be --
17 MR. LUKIC: I -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: If they did not return, why they did not return.
19 That's the next question.
20 Is it the position of the Defence that they did return?
21 MR. LUKIC: I don't -- I don't know from this document that it's
22 possible to conclude.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. The question is what the Defence's position is.
24 Because you introduced this document as an apparent indication of
25 fulfilling or awareness and -- intention to fulfil obligations.
1 Now, the question which was put by Judge Moloto was what they
2 said they committed themselves to, whether that happened yes or no. If
3 you --
4 MR. LUKIC: I [overlapping speakers]...
5 JUDGE ORIE: If the Defence has any position --
6 MR. LUKIC: We don't have any position, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Might be relevant for the totality of ...
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Green light, okay. You are aware that this
10 paragraph says that the command is obliged to ensure the safe return of
11 the -- of the residents. Now, is it the position of the -- the Defence
12 that the command did comply with that obligation?
13 MR. LUKIC: We have no position.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Whether or not successfully it is not the point.
15 MR. LUKIC: Oh.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: But did it comply with the -- okay. Thank you so
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. With regard to this document, I will ask you this: In your work,
20 did you see that there were War Staff Commands in the Serbian
21 municipalities; and, if you did, what their role was in terms of
22 commanding units.
23 A. I -- I didn't see them necessarily called War Staff Commands.
24 There were a number of names: Crisis Staffs, crisis committees. Did I
25 see the Crisis Staffs or War Staffs or crisis committees commanding
1 units? No. There were one or two examples, I think. I think I quote
2 certainly one example from Sanski Most, which would seem to imply some
3 kind of order to the brigade. But, on the whole, I didn't see them
4 commanding the VRS and units of the VRS. I saw them as a co-operative
5 body which had military representation, yes; and there were decisions
6 taken about security matters in those municipalities. But I didn't see
7 them commanding the army, even though there were maybe one or two little
8 examples that would seem to imply that. General Talic commanded his
9 corps, and General Mladic commanded the 1st Krajina Corps.
10 In relation to this document that -- if you want me to comment on
11 this document, there are some echos with the previous document you asked
12 me to review during the break. It makes specific reference to the Muslim
13 villages - this is the document you asked me to review, that is - that
14 they were, in essence, given an ultimatum that they could either stay and
15 work -- operate under the Serbian authority or that they would leave, and
16 I'm assuming this is a document that signed that agreement. Whether they
17 had any desire to keep them there or whether they had that clause in just
18 to say that they would have these individuals back, I don't know, but
19 there were other areas referenced in the document you asked me to review
20 during the break saying that Muslim villages that didn't agree were
21 attacked militarily in Krupe.
22 It is also of note that Miroslav Vjestica, who was a senior
23 figure in Krupe and who is referenced in the document and also as a key
24 player in the document you asked me to review, in which he is articulated
25 as providing arms to the Serbs in the build-up in this municipality, he
1 is also a delegate who speaks at the 16th Assembly Session. And he talks
2 at that session about this issue of the removal or the movement out of
3 the Muslim population from the right bank of the -- of the Una River, and
4 he says in his speech there that will these people come back? And he
5 said, With the happy news that the president has articulated the Una
6 river as a border, no, they won't. And I might be paraphrasing it a
7 little bit because I haven't looked at the exact quote.
8 So there may be some context behind this. This document may be
9 one that is being given as a document to the locals in this area to say,
10 We will bring you back when the thing calms down. But his comments at
11 the 16th Assembly Session gave you the impression that these people will
12 not come back now that the president has articulated that the fourth
13 strategic goal which is to have a border on the Una river for which this
14 municipality is on the front line, that is that these people will not
15 come back.
16 I'm sorry, Your Honours, to be a little bit more long-winded in
17 that respect.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 08012 receives number D417,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D417 is admitted.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. I will briefly ask you whether you have seen that the presidents
25 of Crisis Staffs, or as it reads here War Staff Commands, commanded
1 Territorial Defence units?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one -- one other question.
3 Battalion command, which is referred to in the document, which
4 battalion do you consider that to be? Where Mr. Erceg I think is the
5 battalion commander and a certain Mr. Jez seems to be -- play a role.
6 Are these names familiar to you?
7 THE WITNESS: They are not, sir.
8 JUDGE ORIE: They are not. Thank you.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now I would like us to move to the paragraph of your report 2.134
12 which is on page 110 in English version, and 112 in the B/C/S version.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we're approximately at the time where we
14 would take a break. So before we move to a new area --
15 MR. LUKIC: We can take the break.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted out of the
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes past
21 --- Recess taken at 11.50 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Brown.
1 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 I forgot to tender a document into evidence. It's -- it is
4 65 ter 02837.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02837 receives number D418,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D418 is admitted.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Brown, we said we would focus on your paragraph 2.135 and
11 where you say somewhere in the middle of the paragraph:
12 "In early May, the corps reported that people were afraid and
13 that they were fleeing certain areas."
14 The footnote is 520 for the document that we're going to see
15 together now. This is 65 ter 09843.
16 We can see that this document was issued by the command of the
17 5th Corps on the 6th of May, 1992. Would you agree with me that, on the
18 following page -- or, rather, in English, we need page 2; and in the
19 B/C/S version, we need page 3.
20 This would be the last paragraph under 3. In the B/C/S version,
21 it will be the first paragraph on top of the page.
22 It says here:
23 "People are afraid and panic-stricken. Many people are fleeing
24 to other parts of the country."
25 Would you agree with me that this document does not specify the
1 ethnicity of those people who were panic-stricken. It applies across the
2 board to all the people who resided in the area.
3 A. You're right, sir, it doesn't make mention of the ethnicity.
4 I would assess that it's most likely referring to the areas in
5 the preceding lines. So, most likely the areas of Bugojno, Jajce
6 Donji Vakuf and the Vlasic areas. So I would suspect that the emphasis
7 is in those areas, and I believe at that time there was movement of
8 individuals in -- in that area. I don't think it refers to the whole of
9 the Krajina Corps -- well, the 5th Corps at this time, but the 5th Corps
10 zone. Put it like that.
11 Q. In your work, did you come across the information, according to
12 which, everybody was leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina or the area of
13 Krajina to be more precise. Everybody: The Serb, the Muslims, the
15 A. No, sir, I don't believe everybody was moving in the Krajina,
16 all -- all nationalities and all peoples, no. Were there examples where
17 Serbs were fleeing, yes, in some areas. But your question seems to imply
18 that everybody was packing their bags and off.
19 Q. No, it was not my intention to say that everybody was leaving
20 because nobody would remain. The intention of my question was to ask you
21 whether individuals belonging to all the three peoples were moving out of
22 the Autonomous Region of Krajina. I believe that you've answered that
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- one second, please.
25 Of course, the most relevant question is whether people from the
1 various ethnicity fled in an equal -- in equal numbers or in equal
2 proportions from where they had been living.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't see that, sir. What I saw was there were
4 some references in that early part of May, like it's been referenced in
5 this document, references to fleeing where it may not necessarily specify
6 the ethnicity. What I saw later from late May into June and other months
7 was that the overwhelming majority of the reports referenced Muslims and
8 Croats leaving the Krajina. There were references in the Krajina
9 documents to other parts of Bosnia where Serbs were fleeing. For
10 example, I remember Jajce as being one area in May, where Serbs were
11 leaving. That is a predominantly Croat, I believe, area. And there were
12 references, again, I can't remember the specific ones, but references to
13 Serbs in Central Bosnia leaving. But, in relation to the majority of the
14 reports that reference the moving out of populations in the
15 1 Krajina Corps document, the majority refer to non-Serbs fleeing or
16 being moved out or leaving the Krajina area, not Serbs leaving the
17 Krajina area.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 THE WITNESS: I would add one exception which is the corridor.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. The last sentence says:
23 "A few days after the beginning of war operations in Prijedor,
24 Sanski Most, the 1st Corps reports that the population is afraid and
25 concerned and the pressure to move out of the area is on the rise."
1 However, before we leave this document, I would like to tender it
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 09843 receives number D419,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D419 is admitted.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In your footnote 521, you refer to a document which we are going
9 to see together.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would to call up 65 ter 02836.
11 It's a Prosecutor's document in this case.
12 Q. According to you, this is the cause why people are leaving. I'd
13 like to see page 1 in both versions. And under 1, the second
14 paragraph starts with the following words:
15 "The Green Berets have been pushed back from the area of Jezero
16 and Sipovo. The black shirts, too, have been deployed in the general
17 area of Travnik where preparations are under way for an attack on
18 Skender Vakuf. In the area of Vrhpolje, Sanski Most, the Green Berets
19 have captured six of our soldiers. There is the highest degree of
20 tensions present throughout the area and the expectations of a general
21 uprising and assaults against all facilities and organs of authority."
22 As a matter of fact, this implies that the Serb authorities were
23 expected to come under attack; right? The date is 4 June 1992, mind you.
24 A. The document doesn't necessarily make it clear but -- but it says
25 what it says that they are undoubtedly expecting attacks most possibly in
1 those areas that they talk about, Travnik and other areas. I mean, the
2 date of the document is important too. I mean, the date of the document
3 is important too. I mean, this is 4th of June. Already places like
4 Prijedor are under control of the VRS. Kljuc is too. Sanski Most is
5 too. So to all intents and purposes, there was continuing mopping-up
6 operations that were continuing in the weeks and months afterwards. But
7 I think I quote this document in my reference because not necessarily for
8 that issue, but that there is a direct reference that people are
9 apprehensive and there's pressure to move out. Well, it's most likely
10 that they were apprehensive because the municipalities that I've just
11 mentioned are being taken over by the Serbs and that large numbers of
12 people were now in detention centres.
13 Q. At that time on the 4th of June, the 1st Krajina Corps, when they
14 say that the authorities would come under attack, what do they have in
15 mind? Do they imply the Serb authorities or -- or some other
16 authorities? What do you think?
17 A. It -- it isn't made particularly explicitly clear in the
18 document, but presumably they're referencing the previous lines in the
19 areas that they're expecting the non-Serb armed opposition to attack.
20 There were attacks in those areas. I don't deny that. But I don't use
21 this document to -- to demonstrate that. What I demonstrate is a little
22 bit later that there is this pressure and that people are fearful coming
23 around the time that there has already been these attacks in the
24 municipalities that I mentioned.
25 Q. We can also see under 3 that the document says that:
1 "The crisis areas are Kljuc, Sanski Most, Prijedor and
2 Donji Vakuf and that they are under the control of the 1st Krajina Corps
3 units. However, the population is fearful and apprehensive of the
4 possibly escalation of new conflict, while the pressure to move out is
6 In your work, did you find evidence that people left the area
7 because they were apprehensive of new conflicts?
8 A. Well, my report mentions a lot of phrases that are used in
9 relation to -- to this. Some would be characterised in that -- in that
10 manner. There's other issues about more forceful removals and pressure
11 to have people moved in exchange for Serbs in other areas. So they use
12 various terminologies and I referenced a few of those in this particular
14 You might want to beg -- maybe the report begs the question about
15 why people are being pressured to move out and why people are fearful.
16 Well, maybe it's because of the activity that has been happening in the
17 municipalities and -- in days or weeks before this report was written and
18 activities which continued in areas after this date.
19 Q. Very well. So this is your interpretation of the document.
20 In footnote 523, you make mention of two documents. Again, no
21 specific reasons are given for the requests of the non-Serbian population
22 to leave the area.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And before I proceed, I would like to
24 tender the document that is currently on the screen into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02836 receives number D420,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D420 is admitted.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let's focus on paragraph 2.137 in your report; page 112 in
6 English and 114 in B/C/S.
7 You refer to a document in the footnote 533, and in the document,
8 it says that some Croats and Muslims are moving out and that the region
9 of Bosnian Krajina has passed a decision that they should be allowed to
10 move out on a condition that Serbs were allowed to move out from
11 Central Bosnia and places with predominant Croat and Muslim populations.
12 Do you remember that that was a condition that was set up to
13 allow people to move out from Krajina?
14 A. That's what the report says, that there -- these people will be
15 allowed to go, as long as Serbs can come into Krajina territory.
16 Q. Would you agree with me that this was done in order to make a
17 relocation more difficult, not easier?
18 A. No, I wouldn't agree with you there, sir. This particular
19 reference and other references like it seem to me to echo much of the
20 discussion that was going on at the 16th Assembly Session. When you read
21 the minutes of that discussion, the comments of Radovan Karadzic who
22 talks about the issue of separation and separation of those who would be
23 our enemies if they stayed in the same state, and the fact that he makes
24 mention on at least three occasions in that speech about not having large
25 numbers of people who could be regarded as against that state in RS
1 territory, and the discussions, much of the discussions from the
2 delegates which specifically make reference in some cases to this issue
3 of resettlement of having Serbs in areas come to RS territory and
4 non-Serbs moving out, this document is a reflection of very much the
5 discussions that were going on at the 16th Assembly Session; namely, that
6 the RS was going to have -- that the issue of resettlement was going to
7 be a feature and that -- that large numbers of non-Serbs would no longer
8 be present in that territory.
9 This is a reflection of this issue of separation and the moving
10 of individuals from territories.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just ask a question. The last question of this
12 quotation that Mr. Lukic quoted to you says:
13 "Those departing will not be allowed to return."
14 What was the message in the 16th Session of the assembly in terms
15 of people returning or not returning?
16 THE WITNESS: I did not read the minute, sir, that the emphasise
17 was somehow to have this as a temporary solution to a conflict. And this
18 document in -- as well gives me the impression that this was about
19 ensuring that there was not going to be large numbers of people not --
20 who were viewed as being against the state within it and it was going to
21 be a permanent feature.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] You're telling us what
23 was not -- what you didn't pick up from the minute and that it was not
24 going to be temporary. Did you pick up that it was going to be
1 THE WITNESS: I believe the tenor of the whole debate was about
2 two things, sir: It was about what is the footprint that we need to
3 control; and the second one is, how can we ensure that we do not have
4 large numbers of people who may be viewed as being against that state in
5 it? And if that means relocation, so be it. And I did not get the
6 feeling reading the 16th Assembly Session minutes that the tenor or
7 language or thrust was about being a temporary solution that people were
8 somehow going to be able to come back, and I think General Mladic's
9 comments of caution would appear to also echo that, sir.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now that we're discussing this continuity and temporariness, let
13 us look at 1D1453.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, I'm still puzzled by one
15 of your previous questions where you asked: Would you agree with me that
16 this was done in order to make a relocation more difficult, not easier.
17 Is it -- do I have to understand that your suggestion is that
18 they tried to keep them in by making relocation more difficult? Is that
19 the underlying thought of that question?
20 MR. LUKIC: Underlying thought of this question was if there is
21 another condition for leaving that it's harder to leave than without that
22 condition. If you have the condition that somebody has to come instead
23 of you, that's harder than if you can simply leave. That was my
25 JUDGE ORIE: And -- and that the intention behind was that to try
1 to prevent people to leave, or - which is another option - that they
2 firmly wanted to support that other people would come in and take the
3 place of those who wanted to leave? That's another possible
4 interpretation of that situation. But is it to keep them, make it more
5 difficult so that they would not leave? Is that ... is that the
7 MR. LUKIC: I think that having next documents in front of us
8 would be more clear for everybody, and I think that the -- that
9 standpoint changed over time but we will see, for example, through this
10 document that is on our screen.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I was just puzzled by the thoughts underlying the
12 question and we'll further look at the documents you bring to our
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Do we have English version of this
15 document? Okay.
16 Q. We talked about intentions and we drew conclusions about that.
17 Let's see what's been put on paper. This is an order. It reads,
18 "Serbian Republic Presidency."
19 [In English] Just a second, since I skipped several pages ...
20 [Interpretation] And signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic, the
21 president of the Serbian Republic, which we can see on the following
22 page. And let us see what item 3 says. Item 3 of this document dated
23 the 19th August, 1992, reads, I quote:
24 "Forcible resettlement and other illegal measures against the
25 civilian population should be prevented, and any certificates of sale of
1 property or statements that refugees will not return shall be considered
2 as legally invalid and are declared null and void."
3 Have you come across this document while preparing your work?
4 A. No, I haven't, sir.
5 Q. Is it correct that this order is completely opposite to your
6 conclusions such as it is contained in paragraph 2.138 of your report?
7 A. Well, at face value it would seem to be the case, but there might
8 be very much a contextual aspect to this.
9 Could we go to the top of the document, please.
10 This document seems to be written very much around the time after
11 the international community has become significantly aware of the issue
12 of the removal of people from -- well, the Krajina and other areas. It
13 comes after the awareness in the international community of detention
14 centres and the condition of detention centres, in particular, in the
15 Krajina. And this may explain --
16 Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. This all your explanation which
17 you are giving. But do you know whether people acted pursuant to this
18 order issued by the president of the republic or not?
19 A. Well, I don't believe they acted according to the document that
20 he references beforehand in June. How this was acted upon after this
21 time is -- is not something I'm aware of, but bearing in mind that
22 certainly in the Krajina a large number of people had already left by
23 this time.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would tender this document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1453 receives number D421,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. When we talk about the earlier period but after the assembly
6 session which you mention, I would like to show you a document, 03022, a
7 Prosecution document.
8 We can see that these are conclusions from the meeting of the
9 Banja Luka Crisis Staff. Under item 1, it reads, the first conclusion:
10 "There are no reasons for the population of any ethnicity to move
11 out of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
12 The date is the 20th of May. Have you come across this document?
13 A. I -- I'm not sure if I've seep this or not. This -- I believe
14 this is a Kljuc document? From the Kljuc municipality?
15 Q. It reads Crisis Staff Banja Luka Autonomous Region of Krajina.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the end of the document we see Crisis Staff
17 Kljuc municipality.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, so I'm a bit perplexed now.
19 Q. Either it is for the whole region of Krajina or Kljuc. Have you
20 ever seen the document and have you considered it?
21 A. I don't know if I've seen this before.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document into evidence,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03022 receives number D422,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P422 is admitted into evidence.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. And now I would like to call 65 ter,
5 Prosecution number 06604.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Here we can see the conclusions which were
7 adopted at the meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
8 Krajina nine days after those from the previous document. This meeting
9 was held on the 29th of May, 1992. That's the date when these
10 conclusions were adopted.
11 And under item 1, it reads -- we need "Conclusions." It's at the
12 end of the page in the B/C/S version and on the following page in the
13 English version.
14 An exchange of population is discussed there. And it reads --
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we see another page in English. Yeah, now we
16 have "Conclusions," under 1.
17 Q. [Interpretation] It reads:
18 "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish,
19 should be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous Region of
20 Krajina ..."
21 And once again we see the same that we saw a little while ago:
22 "But on condition that Serbs living outside the
23 Serbian Autonomous Districts and regions are also allowed to move into
24 the territories of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
25 Autonomous Region of Krajina. In this manner, an exchange of population,
1 or, more precisely, a resettlement of people from one part of the former
2 SRBiH to another would be carried out in an organised manner."
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could show the following
4 page in B/C/S, please.
5 [In English] I cannot see it in English.
6 We have to go back in English version. One page back.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What text are you looking for, Mr. Lukic?
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "The Crisis Staff also decided to
9 decisively oppose any attempt of moving out the population by force or
10 under any kind of pressure and to prevent any such attempts by all
11 available legal means."
12 [In English] So I don't see that sentence in English version.
13 We'll have to compare it. But I see it in B/C/S version. It's second
14 paragraph on the page on our screens in the B/C/S.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is there any chance that the English
16 contains two documents and that you are looking at the second
17 paragraph on page 3, which is the second English document under this same
18 65 ter number?
19 MR. LUKIC: I -- I believe you, Your Honour, if you saw
20 it [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's have a look at page 3 in English and
22 then page 1 in the B/C/S.
23 Now, perhaps it's the -- in B/C/S, perhaps I took the wrong page,
24 Mr. Lukic. Was it the second page or --
25 MR. LUKIC: Second -- next page.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Next page.
2 MR. LUKIC: Second paragraph on this page.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But there are two second paragraphs on this page.
5 One on the top, there we have two, three, four five.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, second paragraph without number. It says
7 [B/C/S spoken], second paragraph without number.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. LUKIC: And it's page 19 from the document. And here, on the
10 English version, I -- under conclusions I see it's marked that it's
11 page 23. There are other conclusions as well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, as a matter of fact, that in the --
13 in the B/C/S version, the last item starting at the bottom of page 1
14 is -- starts with number 23. And that seems to be the same as in the
15 English version, starting on --
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- on page 3 under number 23. If we are looking at
18 the second paragraph, we have to distinguish between numbered
19 paragraphs and non-numbered paragraphs. I think at the bottom of the
20 first page in B/C/S, we find number 1 --
21 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- which -- it deals with Muslims and Croats who
23 wish to leave. And that seems to be in the B/C/S also.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this item number 1 has three paragraphs and,
25 if I'm not mistaken, you are referring to the third.
1 MR. LUKIC: To the second one.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To the second one.
3 MR. LUKIC: Third one, you are right. Third one.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Third one under item 1.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which then appears on e-court page 2 in B/C/S.
6 MR. LUKIC: But that paragraph, I don't see in English version.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seems to be a -- perhaps a translation
8 error, because in the original, I think, it has four --
9 MR. LUKIC: Mm-hm.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- paragraphs. Let's have a look. In
11 English, [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It can be the second paragraph.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... one second. After -- we
14 see that the numbering starts with 1 in the B/C/S version five lines on
15 the first page, and then another four and a half lines on the second
16 page. And then we have one long and one short paragraph. Whereas, it
17 seems that in the B/C/S version, we also have a longer and a short
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you have to see whether a portion is
21 missing in translation. If so, tell us what is missing and where it is
22 supposed to be.
23 MR. LUKIC: Exactly the paragraph that I read is missing. The
24 whole paragraph is missing in English version.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In the English version. And could you then please
1 read it again and could the translation, apart from perhaps removing
2 other parts which are not relevant here, could the translation be
4 MR. LUKIC: So I quote:
5 [Interpretation] "At the same time, the Crisis Staff decided to
6 decisively oppose any attempts to move out the population by force or
7 under any kind of pressure and to prevent any such possible attempts by
8 all available legal means."
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now your question.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So, Mr. Brown, obviously you could not have seen this B/C/S
12 portion. But have you used this document at all in your analysis?
13 A. I don't think I have, sir.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tendered this document into
16 evidence as MFI, because obviously there's something wrong with the
17 translation but we shall see to that and inform the Chamber once it has
18 been translated.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated.
20 Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 06604 receives number D423,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence -- is marked for
24 identification. I make the same mistake for the second time today. I
25 hope it will not be there for a third time.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And now let us look at -- the Prosecution showed you a document
3 during the examination-in-chief, which is now P2877.
4 Do you remember this document?
5 A. Yes, I do, sir.
6 Q. We see that it's a document which is a military secret and not
7 meant to be used by the media; correct?
8 A. Well, I don't think it says not to be used by the media, but it's
9 a classified military document, yes.
10 Q. Yes. It reads here that "enclosed, we submit the Order" of the
11 commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, and, actually, we shall look at this
12 enclosed document.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would need ... I don't know,
14 page 2. Let's look at page 2 of this document.
15 Q. We can see here who were all those it was sent to. Actually, we
16 see it was sent to all the subordinated units; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that would seem to be the -- the subordinate units of the
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the following page, please.
20 One more page forward, please. We see that the document is dated
21 the 9th of June, 1992. The document comes from the 1st Krajina Corps
22 Command. We'll see that on page 14 in English and page 17 in B/C/S, in
23 the e-court, under (f). We can here that before issuing specific tasks,
24 all soldiers have to be made familiar with the -- the duties that will
25 follow from the corps to a basic unit.
1 And if we could please see the following page, page 15 in English
2 and page 18 in B/C/S under number 11. We can see that the corps
3 requested that each soldier should be familiarised with this. And I
4 quote number 11:
5 "I strictly prohibit any mistreatment of the unarmed civilian
6 population. Treat prisoners of war in accordance with the spirit of the
7 Geneva Conventions."
8 Signed by Commander Major-General Momir Talic.
9 Q. I suppose that you have come across this document during your
10 work as the Prosecutor showed it to you now, or was it the first time
11 that you saw this document during proofing?
12 A. No, this is a document I know fairly well, sir. It's referenced
13 in my -- in my report. I'd seen it before.
14 Q. Would you agree with me that this represents an effort on part of
15 1st Krajina Corps Command to familiarise all soldiers with the fact that
16 any mistreatment of the civilian population is prohibited?
17 A. Well, he -- he is issuing an order. He is making mention that
18 they have to -- they have to abide by these obligations. So in the
19 respect it's an effort. Whether it's the only effort or whether it's
20 enough is a different issue. But, no, he -- he makes -- the document
21 says what it says. He puts that reference in that they should abide by
22 the Geneva Conventions and not mistreat the civilians. And there are
23 others that General Talic sent out, I know, and also referenced in the
25 Q. All right. Let's see now whether this was implemented or not.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at 1D1451.
2 This is also a document from the 1st Krajina Corps Command from 1993, so
3 the war is already in full swing in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 And we would need page 2 of the English version in e-court; and,
5 in the B/C/S version, it begins -- as we need item 3 in B/C/S, it begins
6 at the bottom of this page, the part that's marked here and which reads:
7 "The actions of responsible individuals have caused uneasiness
8 among the Muslim population in the villages of Batkovac and Stari Majdan
9 (Sanski Most municipality). Representatives of the ICRC, headed by
10 Mr. Frank, wanted to visit the village of Batkovac but the military
11 officers in charge denied them access."
12 And we would need the following page in B/C/S now, please.
13 The continuation of this paragraph reads:
14 "The 1st Krajina Corps command intervened by sending a military
15 police platoon to protect the population from irresponsible individuals."
16 Q. Have you come across this document while preparing your report?
17 A. It's not a document I remember. And it is also dated 1993,
18 March 1993. So my report really focussed on 1992. So I -- it's not a
19 document I remember.
20 Q. Would you agree with me that this document demonstrates the
21 continuity of the position held by the 1st Krajina Corps even in 1993, to
22 protect the civilian population of non-Serb ethnicity in the territory of
23 the Autonomous Region of Krajina? We will see more documents to that
25 A. No, I don't think it does. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't agree with
2 Q. According to you, what does this document show?
3 A. Well, it shows that there -- there is a still remaining small
4 pocket in -- of Muslim -- a Muslim village in Sanski Most in which case
5 there -- the ICRC wanted to visit and that there was some problem with
6 the military there that the corps commander intervened to resolve.
7 I mean, it's the first time I've seen the document. I'd have to
8 read it all. But at face value that's what it is and that's what it
9 seemed to be.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, where do you read that that matter,
11 that is, the access by the ICRC, was resolved? I read that they sent a
12 military police platoon to protect the population from irresponsible
14 I can't read anything about ICRC then having been given access.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I can't, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. Because you -- your answer suggested that the
17 issue raised was taken care of, whereas I do not read that part.
18 THE WITNESS: I agree, sir.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to tender
21 this document into evidence.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1451 receives number D424,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. LUKIC: It's time -- time for our break.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, since we have an extended session, Mr. Lukic,
5 I would like to go on for another five to seven minutes, then take the
6 break, and have then the last session which takes a little bit over one
7 hour as well.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 65 ter 03292.
9 It's a Prosecution exhibit.
10 Q. This document was issued by SRNA, the Serbian press agency, which
11 was authorised to publish the following appeal by Radovan Karadzic in
12 connection to the International Red Cross Committee plea.
13 It says under 1:
14 "We ask all the local authorities and the most prominent Serbian
15 individuals to ensure protection and care for all wounded and sick
16 individuals regardless of the side they belong to; to treat all prisoners
17 humanely; to spare the civilians of all attacks; to provide protection
18 and all the possible aid to refugees ..."
19 Did you have this document before you when you compiled your
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. When it comes to Mr. Karadzic's positions expressed here, would
23 they have changed anything, in your views?
24 A. I don't --
25 Q. Just yes or no, please.
1 A. No, I don't think it would necessarily -- what -- what it would
2 do is put into context some of the other instructions that came out
3 around this time. I think there was decisions taken a couple of days
4 after --
5 Q. Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document
7 into evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03292 receives number D425,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
12 Most of these documents where the witness has no idea, Mr. Lukic,
13 there's no objection by the Prosecution, but, of course, it's not the
14 usual way of introducing documents through a witness. But bar table
15 or -- that's not of primarily importance at this moment for this Chamber.
16 MR. LUKIC: As you ruled previously, Your Honour, it is crucial
17 for this report to see what is used, what is not used. And it is crucial
18 to see the documents that I [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
20 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... contradiction of the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I do not know whether this contradicts
23 the report. I'm hesitant to see it that way. But, as I said before, bar
24 table or through the witness seems not to be the most important issue at
25 this moment, and in the absence of any objections the Chamber has now --
1 have admitted it.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like to
4 call up another document, 1D1454.
5 Q. This is an announcement to the citizens of the Serbian Republic
6 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was signed by the Presidency of the
7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The date is 11 July 1992.
8 After the session of the assembly which was discussed by you in
9 this courtroom, the Presidency says in this announcement, and I quote:
10 "The Presidency reminds everybody that the Geneva Conventions
11 provide for the relocation of the population from war zones. Likewise,
12 moving out can only be a voluntary act. In keeping with that, it cannot
13 be either prevented or instigated.
14 "To all the citizens of the Serbian Republic of
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina of Croat and Muslim ethnicities, they are
16 guaranteed all the rights provided for by a state with the rule of law.
17 The authorities of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will
18 not force anybody to stay in the area of combat activities because that
19 would mean that people will become hostages. They will not forcibly move
20 them out because that would constitute ethnic cleansing. All refugees
21 from the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will
22 be allowed to return without suffering any consequences; criminals, and
23 not civilians, are subject to legal sanctions."
24 Did you review this document when preparing your analysis? Did
25 you take it into account, if you did?
1 A. I have not seen this document before, sir.
2 Q. Obviously this is a document which is in the possession of the
3 Prosecutor's office. It has an ERN number. I believe that the issue was
4 also raised by His Honour Judge Orie. Who was it who decided which
5 documents you were allowed to use as opposed to the document which you
6 were not supposed to use? Who made a short list of the material for you
7 to peruse?
8 A. The documents that I exploited were the archive of the
9 1st Krajina Corps, predominantly that collection, and some other
10 documents that I obtained through searches that I did that reflected or
11 had relevance to the 1st Krajina Corps documents.
12 Q. So not only did you not study the documentation produced by the
13 enemy side, you also did not study the Serbian documentation that went
14 beyond the scope of the material produced by the 1st Krajina Corps.
15 Would that, more or less, summarise what you have just told us?
16 A. I did include some materials which were not solely in the
17 1st Krajina Corps archive. But, as I said to you before, this document
18 and report has got limitations and it does not review every single
19 document. It was not a report about all aspects of the political
20 situation in Bosnia and the RS territory, and there will be documents I
21 did not review.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
23 MR. LUKIC: A few more question, two more questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Would you regard this document as important for your analysis, or
2 would you consider it of no consequence at all?
3 A. No, I would -- I would certainly consider it and -- and look at
4 it and -- and put it in its context in terms of time and other aspects
5 that were going on in relation to, say, the Presidency decisions or
6 operations that had already occurred prior to this situation -- that
7 occurred prior to this and what happened after this, whether any of this
8 actually was implemented. So I would -- I would look at this document
9 and I would put it in some -- some context.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender the document
11 into evidence. And this, indeed, is the time for our next break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document number 1D1454 receives number D426,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D426 is admitted into evidence.
16 The witness may follow the usher. We'll take a break.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
22 into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber wondered whether you could not
23 have agreed with the Prosecution on the existence of these press
24 statements and then quote in one line to the witness and ask him whether
25 that would change his views on the matter. I mean, unless there's any
1 dispute about these press releases or statements being made.
2 Mr. Traldi.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 MR. TRALDI: Yeah, in these cases, there hasn't been,
5 Mr. President. Obviously I'm not sure what else Mr. Lukic would choose
6 to use but we're always open to coming to such agreements with the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we couldn't speed up considerably.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at a new document,
11 1D1455. This also goes against your claim that people kept on leaving
12 all the time and forever. This is an instruction which was sent to all
13 presidents of municipalities. It says in here -- unfortunately, I could
14 not read the B/C/S version. I'm going to quote from the English version
15 because the B/C/S version seems to be rather illegible:
16 [In English] "The occurrence of abandoned flats is a war issue
17 and so are the refugees. This means that both occurrences are
19 Q. [Interpretation] Did you come across this document in your work?
20 A. No, I -- I didn't, sir.
21 Q. Based on all the documents that were shown to you, would you
22 consider changing your positions stated in paragraphs 2.138 and 2.149?
23 A. No -- no, I wouldn't, sir. I -- going back to this particular
24 document, it is not clear whether the reference here is to do with
25 individuals who have fled or whether it's to do with Serb refugees who
1 have come into RS territory and are taking -- are taking flats or
2 accommodation. So, no, I wouldn't change ...
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tendered the document
5 into evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1455 receives number D427,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D427 is admitted.
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at a military
11 document, 65 ter 02649. It's a Prosecution number. It was issued by the
12 command of a group of brigades in Skender Vakuf. It was issued on the
13 6th of July, 1992.
14 Q. This was before the international journalists visited the area;
16 A. Yes. It's certainly before and Gutman and Penny Marshall and
17 those visits in late July. I don't know whether other visits may have
18 occurred from other journalists in between, but certainly from those
20 Q. In this document we are looking at English 3 and page 7 in B/C/S.
21 There are a few empty pages in the B/C/S version of the document between
22 the typed up pages; hence, the discrepancy in pagination.
23 In the English version, I don't seem to be able to find the exact
24 line. The line should start with the following word, "Use some of the
25 forces ..." and I'm reading --
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: What paragraph?
2 JUDGE ORIE: What paragraph?
3 MR. LUKIC: 5.2. Number 5.2, paragraph 3, but it is hardly
4 visible. It's ... line [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: In English, it says "use some of the forces ..."
6 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers]
7 [Interpretation] "Use some of the forces to close off the" --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "... some of the forces must be ready
10 to prevent interethnic conflicts in the territory of the Skender Vakuf
11 municipality and acts of genocide between the peoples and the Serbian
13 And then in the English version of this document on pages 16 and
14 on page 13 in B/C/S under bullet point 16, we see references to
15 psychological preparations and raising morale. Page 16 [In English] page
16 13 in B/C/S, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we don't have it on the screen.
18 MR. LUKIC: Not yet.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There it is.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 [Interpretation] The last paragraph on the English page. It says
23 "During combat operations, do all you can to suppress looting in
24 the villages."
25 We need the following page in the English version.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's on the screen.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. It is in line 1 in the English version at the end of that line,
4 where it says:
5 "I most strictly forbid mistreatment of the civilian population
6 and captured soldiers must be treated in accordance with the
7 Geneva Conventions."
8 Would you agree with me that this document is not in line with
9 the conclusions you present under 2.138 and that the statement you
10 proffer there is incorrect; namely, when you say that the organs of the
11 1st Krajina Corps aimed at expelling population from the area.
12 A. It's not what it says in 2.138. It says, "Indicate an
13 articulation of the plan to remove down to the lowest levels." This
14 document is what it says. Colonel Peulic has put that in his
15 instructions, but I don't think it necessarily is really related to
17 Q. You didn't answer my question. The document that we see on the
18 screen, is it contradictory to the findings in your report under 2.138,
19 where it says: This seems to point to the plan of population
20 resettlement and handing that plan down to the lowest level in the
21 1st Krajina Corps. Or do you perhaps think and suggest that this
22 document that is on the screen is exactly in line with your views?
23 A. No. This document on the screen is a different issue. This is a
24 combat instruction that Colonel Peulic is passing down to the units of
25 his Operational Group. And within that, he is tasking his brigades to
1 take -- take control of territory, including, Kotor Varos, Skender Vakuf
2 and other areas. And with -- and with -- and within that --
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Just a second.
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
5 MR. LUKIC: No, no, no. I have no time for these long
6 explanations. I'm not interested. I want to be told whether this is in
7 agreement with --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Stop. The witness may finish his answer.
9 MR. LUKIC: Then I need the next week for him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will decide how much time
11 you'll get. The witness may finish this answer.
12 Please proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: To be brief, it's an instruction to take control of
14 the territory in his zone, and within that, yes, he does make mention
15 that civilians are not to be mistreated. But it's not -- it doesn't make
16 reference of resettlement. It's about combat operations his brigades are
17 going to undertake at this time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. So, according to you, the fact that mistreatment of the civilian
21 population is prohibited does not have an impact on the resettlement of
22 the self-same civilian population and that this is a plan of some kind.
23 A. No. I see there's different issues. One is this is a
24 military --
25 Q. All right. Thank you. You've told me "no." Thank you. We move
2 In paragraph 2. --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Lukic please repeat the reference.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the reference.
5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 2.141. In English version, it's
6 page 113, and in B/C/S, page 115.
7 Q. In this process of exchange, was there anything in the activities
8 of the Croats and the Muslims that was unlawful?
9 A. Could I see the document, sir, on the screen? Or ...
10 Q. The paragraph of your report, 2.141. You say from the writing of
11 the 30th Division it's obvious that the Muslims and the Croats who
12 requested leave to move were actually resettled and that the exchanges of
13 civilians were agreed between the Serbs and the non-Serbs.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not have the
15 original text.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Was there anything unlawful about the activities of non-Serbs in
18 these exchanges, so the non-Serbs who take part in negotiations with the
19 Serb side and exchange Serbs for non-Serbs?
20 A. Well, I can't really say, sir, because I'm not sure of the
21 negotiations and agreements. If your underlying question relates to
22 whether Serbs, say in Jajce, in relation here were under pressure to move
23 out or were moved out, it would not surprise me if that was not the case.
24 I can't say for sure because I don't know the details on the other side.
25 It's clear from this document there is this resettlement issue that
1 ethnic groups are being moved in and out from Jajce. Whether that's
2 legal, illegal, whether it's pressure on both side, whether it's forced
3 on both sides, it's not clear from the document. I'm using the document
4 to say there were examples of this type of movement.
5 Q. All right. Now we'll focus on paragraph 2.152 of your report.
6 In English version, it's page 116 and in B/C/S, page 119.
7 You saw there that unlawfully property -- mainly immovable
8 property was appropriated, and --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Lukic please repeat. He is reading
10 very fast a text we do not have.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat your reading
12 because the interpreters were not able to follow it at your speed of
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So you claim in this paragraph that in an organised manner the
16 ownership of immovable property was organised, mainly land and
17 apartments. Do you know who were the owners of apartments in
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time? And are you familiar with the
19 concept of tenants' rights?
20 A. Property ownership wasn't really an area of my study, sir. But I
21 am aware of, more generally I guess, the -- I suspect the issue of
22 tenants' rights and that individuals can be tenants in property that ...
23 Q. Would you agree with me that someone who does not have property
24 cannot lose it? And are you aware of the obligation to return apartments
25 always when someone is moving from one place to another in the
1 Former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, if someone moved from
2 one place to another, he had to return the apartment to its owner,
3 perhaps a company, or a municipality, or some other organisation?
4 A. As I say, property ownership is not really an area of my
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I might just ask a question, were you aware,
7 sir, Mr. Brown, that -- which ethnicity had occupied, not owned, occupied
8 these apartments that Mr. Lukic is talking about?
9 THE WITNESS: Sir, it would seem from the document these are
10 non-Serbs who are -- who are leaving this -- this accommodation.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then occupation is a right, isn't it?
12 THE WITNESS: I would imagine. Well, yes, occupation is a right.
13 You don't -- even in my own country if you don't own your property but
14 are a tenant in it there are strict legal rights that you have. You
15 cannot be turfed out your house on an afternoon and told you are no
16 longer welcome there. There are legal rights, legal processes by which
17 if someone wants to reclaim that property or move you from it, that they
18 can do so but you have certain rights to remain there until that is
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And since I'm going to move
23 to another document, I would ask for this one to be admitted,
24 65 ter 2649.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02649 receives number D428,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D428 is admitted into evidence.
4 Before we move to another area, Mr. Lukic -- and, Witness, can I
5 ask you, in paragraph 2.152 did you express yourself on the details of
6 what could be legally done, or are you first distinguishing between
7 organised, authorised, whatever you name it, transfer of occupancy other
8 than the non-organised of the -- what you call "illegal," in brackets,
9 and the involvement of the 1st Krajina Corps in those movements?
10 Is that what you were talking about or were you giving in
11 judgement on what was legal or illegal in respect of those abandoned
13 THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm not making a call on the property and
14 legal issues, per se. What I wanted to do was when I reviewed certain
15 documents, it seemed to be that on the one hand there were references by
16 General Talic that he was unhappy with -- individuals occupying
17 territory -- property of their own back. And that -- that he didn't
18 approve of that but that he was approving of the official, i.e.,
19 Bosnian Serb, policy, that these apartments or properties should be put
20 at the control of the RS authorities and dealt with -- and handed out in
21 that manner.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. In footnote 561, you refer to a document in order to support this
1 claim of yours that the army probably didn't criticise this officially
2 agreement distribution of property because it profited from it because
3 you say that soldiers moved into those apartments.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI: I just ask that if he's -- that if Mr. Lukic is
6 quoting or purporting to quote the proposition for which the witness has
7 cited the document, he be reasonably precise about it. I don't see, for
8 instance, in that paragraph a refreshes to the army criticising this
9 policy or not.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither do I.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After 559, the footnote number in
12 paragraph 2.152, you say that:
13 "The army probably did not criticise such officially authorised
14 seizing and distribution of property because it profited from it."
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the
16 original text.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, you originally referred us to
18 footnote 561. That's what we are reading.
19 MR. LUKIC: I think that we can look into the same document in
20 relation of this claim.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So --
22 MR. LUKIC: So --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
24 MR. LUKIC: The document from that [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Don't confuse us, Mr. Lukic. If you look at
1 paragraph 78, line 2, you say in footnote 561 you refer to, so we are
2 looking at footnote 561. Now when you change and say after 559, the
3 footnote number, 55 -- after 559 is 560.
4 MR. LUKIC: There is a text after 559. That's what I was -- I
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's right. That's much better.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Now we need document 65 ter, Prosecution number,
10 Q. [Interpretation] Here, we see before us a report about abandoned
11 apartments. Do you know -- or, rather, do you accept - I will tell you -
12 that the underlined words are actually the names of the apartment owners
13 or the companies, the municipality, the medical centre, the secretariat
14 of the interior --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which underlined word, Mr. Lukic? I see no
16 underlined word in the English.
17 MR. LUKIC: For example, on the first page you have "DP
18 Proleter." It means "state company, Proleter."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The question to the witness is whether the
20 witness agrees that these headings refer to social institutions or
21 companies which owned the apartments referred to.
22 Is that the question?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know whether these are names of
25 companies or --
1 THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you recognise Serbian names on these lists? That is to say,
5 are there any apartments here that were abandoned by Serbs?
6 A. I -- I couldn't necessarily tell you and I wouldn't really want
7 to -- to delve into -- I can recognise some names as being, say, Muslim.
8 I -- I can't necessarily tell you whether other names are -- are Serb or
9 not. It's not really my expertise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you tell us in a little bit more
11 about the document. There's no time on it, who drafted it, where does it
12 come from?
13 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the witness can tell us more. I cannot. It's
14 footnoted in his report.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, do you have any idea?
16 Where is it footnoted, Mr. --
17 THE WITNESS: It's in 561, sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 561.
19 THE WITNESS: I believe it was a -- Kotor Varos War Presidency,
20 part of that collection.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI: Obviously I haven't had time to do a comprehensive
23 review of our records but what the witness has said is consistent with
24 the information that I'm finding [overlapping speakers]...
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is there any time-frame to be given to it?
1 MR. TRALDI: Our records reflect that it's part of a collection
2 of files and records from 1992.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Could we -- is this -- the names appearing on this list, are
5 those the names of person who now occupy those apartments, or those who
6 had abandoned them, if you know?
7 THE WITNESS: Sir, I believe the names on the left-hand side were
8 the former owners, and the -- who had abandoned the property or left.
9 And the names down the right-hand side are individuals who've taken over
10 those properties.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I now see it. So that currently inhabited by gives
12 the new occupant.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. You say that you can recognise some names. Would you agree that
17 names under numbers 2, 3, 12, 16, 18, and 21 only in this first group of
18 apartments noted as property of the socially owned enterprise Proleter
19 are names of Serbs whose apartments were included on this list?
20 A. I would have to defer to you, sir, or others. It's not really
21 something I would feel comfortable in saying. But I would defer to you
22 that maybe there are Serb names here too.
23 Q. So would you agree with me that they were recorded -- all the
24 flats that had been abandoned were recorded and managed by their owners,
25 i.e., the companies who owned them?
1 A. I -- I really am not sure that I can answer that, sir. As I say,
2 I'm not an expert on this issue of property ownership.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since the footnote, 561, refers especially to
4 Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic, I would like to see that name in the
5 document. Perhaps we can go to the next page in English. It's a
6 reference only to this person, Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic. Can we go
7 to the next page. I don't see it here.
8 MR. TRALDI: [Microphone not activated] I believe it will be
9 page 3 in English, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We didn't hear you.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Microphone.
12 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. I believe it will be page 3 in English,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to page 3.
15 Now it's on the screen now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Kotor Varos, under number 9, I take it --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- would bring us to ...
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to tender this
20 document into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 02968 receives number D429,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
25 One question, Mr. Lukic. You suggested that the property was
1 still administered by the owners. First of all, I see now and then
2 illegally, which apparently means that the owner is not administering.
3 But, second, I don't see that it is administered by the owners. I see,
4 for example, for Novakovic that he inhabits the apartment by the order of
5 the War Presidency. Now you could consider municipal assembly perhaps in
6 the same area, but where does it say that apart from being the owner of
7 the apartment building or apartment block that they play a role in --
8 in -- in managing them? I do not see it yet, but if you would assist me.
9 MR. LUKIC: There are many ways of managing in socialist times
10 with a building like [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine but [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 MR. LUKIC: Obviously -- obviously from this document I can
13 accept that it's done by War Presidency who distributed the apartments.
14 I don't have [Overlapping speakers] ... there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know. You
16 suggested that the owners still managed their property. Now in your
17 explanation, you are not --
18 MR. LUKIC: Property has to be returned to the owner and they
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The simple answer, therefore, is that it
21 gives information who inhabits at this moment or who
22 [Overlapping speakers] ...
23 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... or who left the apartment
24 because there is many empty --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: -- still empty.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But who manages it? The document does not provide
3 any information for that.
4 MR. LUKIC: You are right. I cannot see that from the document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] And now let's look at
7 65 ter 03084, another Prosecutor's document. The document will be
8 related to Kljuc municipality.
9 Q. It says in the document that the War Presidency adopts the
10 following decision on criteria required in order for people to move out
11 of Kljuc municipality. The document was issued on the
12 30th of July, 1992, or, rather, it refers to that date.
13 In this decision, under 2, you can see how people can move out of
14 Kljuc municipality forever, permanently. Article 2:
15 "Persons who have exchanged their real estate (privately-owned
16 houses, land and flats) with other individuals from the area to which
17 they are moving shall be permitted to leave the municipality
19 Did you know that that was a condition which people had to meet
20 if they wanted to move out permanently?
21 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'd just object to the characterisation
22 of the condition. I think there's an alternative condition two lines
23 below, and so I think the document is being slightly misstated.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness to read Article 2, if he's
25 able to do. And then put any question to the witness, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. That would have been my next question. However, we can look at
3 the document together and we can combine the two questions. Instead of
4 exchanging one's property, people could actually leave it to Kljuc
6 A. Well, the document is what it is. It does have those two --
7 those two options. In essence, if you don't meet the time deadline, the
8 municipality will do it for you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, isn't the -- one of the real issues in
10 Article 2, the option which does not appear, that is, leave as you wish
11 and come back and enjoy your property again, which you own; but that
12 it's -- if you want to leave for a shorter or a longer period of time,
13 you can't keep the ownership of your property.
14 Is -- isn't that the -- one of the issue that appears rather than
15 to say, Well, there are two different options of getting rid of your
16 property but keeping your property. Is that the really issue? And
17 perhaps the witness could comment on it, or if you have any further
18 questions on what seems to me to be similarly an issue with Article 2.
19 Could you comment on it.
20 THE WITNESS: Sir, sometimes it's what's not in the documents
21 that are as powerful as what's in it, and this is a clear example. You
22 know, if -- if this was an issue of, We have a conflict in Kljuc which
23 some of you may feel frightened enough to leave, but don't worry your
24 property will be okay to come back to, there should be an echo of that,
25 that you are within your rights to come back when you feel safe to do so.
1 But here it seems to be that if you leave it for a period of time that
2 Kljuc is going to decide what is going to happen to your property.
3 There is also the issue at this time that a large number of
4 people in Kljuc were already in detention camps and whether they had any
5 ability or chance or opportunity to deal with property matters whilst
6 they were being held in these detention camps, I would very much doubt.
7 So there is more to it than just this seeming anodyne or bureaucratic
8 issue of property passage.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you able to comment on the last paragraph of
11 Article 2?
12 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's -- it's a -- I -- it -- for what
13 reason are you not allowed to sell your property other than -- I think
14 that they -- it's -- it's an odd comment to put in. People are -- if
15 you -- I mean, paragraph -- Article 2 is talking about privately-owned
16 property. It's yours. You can presumably sell it to whoever you want.
17 But here there is a -- there is -- they are citizens that right. What
18 they're allowing is this issue of exchange under strict conditions and it
19 strikes me that this again cuts to this issue of -- you know, these
20 people are going to be moving out. We will -- when you -- when you read
21 some of the delegates at the 16th Assembly Session who are talking about
22 this very issue of, What are we going to do with Serbs who are in areas
23 who we don't control? Well, we need to have this exchange. We need to
24 move this -- these -- these types of minutiae seem to echo that
25 ultimately these individuals weren't going to come back, no matter what
1 the public facade was. And I actually think the practical reality is
2 that these people didn't come back and certainly the ones in the camp
3 never had any chance to come back at all.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you know that this ban on the sale of property that you find
8 confusing was actually introduced in order to prevent any possible
9 abuses. For example, a person might be forced at gunpoint to sell their
10 property and that would be the purpose of this decision, which I suggest
11 to you. Would you accept that?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, I think then we must make a distinction
13 because you're making an assumption which doesn't appear from the
14 document. And the document then should prohibit forced sales, not just
16 You can laugh, but if it's at gunpoint it's a forced sale.
17 MR. LUKIC: Then you have to prove because before this moment,
18 Your Honour, many forgeries, actually forced transfers were made and then
19 citizens would have to prove that it was forced or not forced sale.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are testifying now.
21 MR. LUKIC: I am because I took part in many returns of these
22 flats, so I know it perfectly well.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Maybe let's wait for you to call a witness to say
25 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: But the point is, faced with this document,
2 there's no reference to forced sale or voluntarily sale. It just says
4 MR. LUKIC: Any sale. Any sale.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any sale, so therefore -- therefore, it becomes
6 arbitrary to deny a person the right to sell voluntarily.
7 MR. LUKIC: Trust me, it's in the best interests of
8 population [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers]... I don't know. We'll
10 find out when you call your witness.
11 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we will.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you put your next question to the witness.
13 But I would have one observation, Mr. Lukic. If now or at a later stage
14 you would be able to explain to me how forfeiture of your property after
15 you've left for, what was it, three months would protect you against
16 forced sale, then I would very much appreciate that.
17 But, perhaps you put your next question to the witness.
18 MR. LUKIC: We will definitely have somebody to testify on this
20 Now, I want one document in the e-court, 1D1459.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering the last document you've just
22 discussed at length?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 03084 receives number D430,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: D430 is admitted.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 MR. LUKIC: We don't have --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Next document there is no English translation,
6 Mr. --
7 MR. LUKIC: There is no B/C/S. This is English.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, this is English. Let's have a look.
9 MR. LUKIC: I don't know how but we don't have B/C/S --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. LUKIC: -- original.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that we keep the --
13 MR. LUKIC: Maybe Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: I don't. I wonder if Mr. Lukic has any more
15 information about this document. Based on the top left-hand corner it
16 seems like this can't possibly be the original version.
17 MR. LUKIC: This is not original obviously. I don't know how we
18 have only English version. But we have to work with what we have.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So we have in the -- we have an English text --
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- before us at this moment.
22 MR. LUKIC: There must be B/C/S version since -- original must be
23 in B/C/S.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I -- we'll see. Please try to find out so that we
25 know it as well.
1 MR. LUKIC: I will propose this document to be MFI'd and then
2 we'll have time to investigate.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you want to put questions to the
4 witness --
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- about it.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
8 Q. This is document from September 9, 1992. It says "Declaration."
9 And we need paragraph under number 3. Yes. That says:
10 "We are inviting all citizens who left their homes due to war
11 operations, feeling of personal insecurity and jeopardised property, to
12 return to the territory of the Serbian Republic after a durable peace is
13 established. All citizens of other nationalities will be recognised, all
14 their rights, according to the constitution and law."
15 [Interpretation] Mr. Brown, would you think that inviting people
16 to -- return, immediately even during war operations, would be sincere or
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
19 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. Again, Your Honour, I don't think we can
20 tell on the basis of the document if this invitation was actually
21 extended. I note the date doesn't appear to be a date on which there was
22 a -- a session of the RS Assembly. It seems something similar may have
23 been done at the next session. But there would be a record of that, and
24 this clearly isn't that record. At best, it may be a draft.
25 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems is that we -- I can't see the
1 whole of the document because I can't manipulate it as I usually do on my
2 right screen.
3 MR. LUKIC: As we understood, Your Honour, this is not record
4 from the sitting. This is declaration.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Declaration issued by?
6 MR. LUKIC: By Assembly of Serbian Republic.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the last page of the document, please.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- it's -- perhaps if we would have --
10 tomorrow a printed copy of this and then you can put whatever questions
11 you'd like to the witness but then we have at least a better view on it.
12 Could it be MFI'd for the time being so that we know what we're
13 working with. Madam Registrar, the number under which --
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1459 receives number D431,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D431 is marked for identification.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Brown, did you yourself come across this document while you
19 were compiling your report or thereafter?
20 A. No, sir, this is the first time I've seen it.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's see just one more document.
22 06442, this is a Prosecutor's 65 ter number.
23 Q. The document refers to Sanski Most. We can see how the
24 representatives of the local authorities saw the situation there and what
25 their way of thinking was.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have two different documents on the screen,
2 both in English.
3 MR. LUKIC: We shouldn't have. I have one.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I have on the left, session number 11,
5 14th of August, Executive Committee Municipality, Sanski Most. And to
6 the right we have the last page of a document which is signed by
7 Mladen Lukic. And it is dated the 14th of August. We have now the
8 first -- let me see. I think now we are there.
9 MR. LUKIC: Next -- next page. Yeah.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that uploading has not been very accurate.
13 Everything can be found if you know where it is.
14 MR. LUKIC: It's mixed up.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have any questions to put to the
16 witness about the document --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: The English version is gone.
18 MR. LUKIC: This document in English version. [Microphone not
19 activated] we need page 5 in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE ORIE: There is a two-page English document. There is an
21 11-page --
22 MR. LUKIC: B/C/S document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
24 MR. TRALDI: That's what we find in the system.
25 MR. LUKIC: I'll just read one paragraph.
1 JUDGE ORIE: On -- on original it gives the -- yes, please read
2 that paragraph.
3 MR. LUKIC: Just one paragraph. It is 1, 2, 3, 4, fourth
4 paragraph on this page. It says, and I quote:
5 [Interpretation] "M. Lukic, according to the international law,
6 nobody can be prevented from moving out. Whoever wants to move out
7 should be allowed to do so. And, likewise, whoever wants to stay should
8 be allowed to do that as well."
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can't see it in the English.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following: Since we really have to
11 stop today in time, Mr. Lukic, reorganise, together with the Prosecution
12 perhaps, this exhibit so that we have the right thing on our screens, and
13 let's continue with it tomorrow.
14 Mr. Brown, I would like to instruct you again not to speak with
15 anyone about your -- about your testimony, whether given already or still
16 to be given, and we'll like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.30.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you for your time, sir.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic -- one second, please.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber still urges you to finish the
22 cross-examination tomorrow, Mr. Lukic.
23 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the
24 22nd of November, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.48 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of
2 November, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.