Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19878

 1                           Tuesday, 26 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I'll start with a matter which is of some urgency.

11             Yesterday, transcript page 19809, the Prosecution requested an

12     extension of an additional two weeks to seek leave to reply to the

13     Defence response to the Prosecution's municipalities bar table motion.

14             Could the Defence tell us what their position is.

15             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Considering that the Defence has no objection, the

17     Chamber will grant the request for an additional two weeks for which the

18     Prosecution now has sought leave, which is granted as well.

19             Considering that the response was distributed on the

20     19th of November, hereby the Chamber sets the new deadline at the

21     10th of December.  And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the

22     matter.

23             Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

24             Meanwhile, I deal with the following.

25             On the 22nd of November - last Friday - the Prosecution tendered


Page 19879

 1     the document bearing 65 ter number 07153, which subsequently received

 2     Exhibit Number P2899.  The Chamber notes that the record is unclear about

 3     whether the document has been admitted into evidence.  This can be found

 4     at transcript page numbers 19796 to 97.  The Chamber hereby clarifies

 5     that P2899 has been admitted into evidence.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to remind you that you're still bound

10     by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

11     testimony.  And Ms. Hasan will now re-examine you.

12             Ms. Hasan.

13             MS. HASAN:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone.

14                           WITNESS:  MILENKO TODOROVIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Re-examination by Ms. Hasan:

17        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

18             MS. HASAN:  Could we have 65 ter 25952.

19        Q.   Now, Witness, you recall during the cross-examination by

20     Mr. Stojanovic he showed you an aerial image - and that was marked

21     P2922 - of the Batkovic camp.  And you identified for us the building

22     where -- that was being prepared for the reception of the prisoners.

23             Now, this is a similar aerial image but one which you marked

24     during your interview in Belgrade in 2010.  Is it -- could you identify

25     in this image or tell us which number -- which facility marked by which

Page 19880

 1     number is the facility that you made reference to yesterday?

 2        A.   Yes.  It is the facility number 5 --

 3        Q.   Okay --

 4        A.   -- in this image.  Yesterday there was a kind of 1 over it in

 5     handwriting.

 6             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I would offer this image into evidence

 7     simply because I had previously asked the witness to confirm what he said

 8     in his interview which was that he visited facility number 5, and so it's

 9     this image that identifies that facility which is the same one marked

10     number 1 on the other image.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25952 receives number P2942,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             MS. HASAN:  We can remove that image.

16        Q.   Witness, now, yesterday, in response to a question by Defence

17     counsel, you mentioned that you had contacted General Tolimir using

18     extension 165.  Do you recall giving that evidence?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20             MS. HASAN:  Could we have 65 ter 05923, please, displayed.

21        Q.   Now, you can see from the B/C/S version, and here's the English,

22     that this is the telephone book for the Main Staff of the VRS.  It's

23     dated August 1995.

24             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, we don't yet have a translation of the

25     page I'm going to refer to in the English, but we will providing be that.

Page 19881

 1     For the purposes of my question, I think the B/C/S will suffice.

 2             If we could turn to page 20, please, in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Now, Colonel, can you read the very first line on that document?

 4             MS. HASAN:  Oh.  It's disappeared from the screen.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be no English translation as was --

 6     yes, that's what -- so, therefore, it doesn't make much sense to try and

 7     find it in the --

 8             MS. HASAN:  Sorry.  I just need the page 20 of the B/C/S version.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not the same -- it is, yes.  It's the

11     seam page.

12             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

13        Q.   Okay, Colonel, the first -- the first -- not the heading but the

14     very first line on that page, could you please read that aloud to us.

15        A.   "Chief," the extension number is 165.

16        Q.   And just above "chief," what -- what does it read there?

17        A.   "Sector for intelligence and security affairs."

18             MS. HASAN:  I'd offer this document into evidence and we will be

19     providing the English translation of that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that we don't need all the pages --

21             MS. HASAN:  No, Your Honours.  I think --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so therefore should only this one page and the

23     cover page be sought to be admitted.

24             And then, of course, it is -- yes, the cover page says that it's

25     the telephone directory of the Main Staff, which is relevant and

Page 19882

 1     important in this context.  So, therefore, we need the cover page, I

 2     think, and the translation of this page which is page 20 in B/C/S.  And

 3     even there, do we need it at all?  I mean, if the parties agree that this

 4     is the phone book of the Main Staff dated August 1995, where, on page --

 5     printed page 23 and B/C/S page in e-court, it says -- it gives the sector

 6     and that number 165 is the number of the chief, then I think we would

 7     have everything we need.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, I don't know whether you need it for any

11     other reason, Ms. Hasan, but ...

12             MS. HASAN:  No.  If there's an agreement on the record that 165

13     is the extension of the chief of the Main Staff --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  As -- as presented in this --

15             MS. HASAN:  -- as provided by the witness, then that's fine.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And as presented in this phone book dated

17     August 1995.

18             MS. HASAN:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour.

21             I don't think the Prosecution will have any problem with us

22     saying that it is from August 1995.  The conversation that the witness

23     referred to, if it took place, according to the Prosecution, took place

24     before that date.  So this document is something that you will attribute

25     weight to.

Page 19883

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness said for his conversation, 165.

 2     And we see in a phone book of August that 165 stands for the chief.

 3             Now, if it is the Defence's position that in July that was a

 4     different number, then we'll hear from you.  This is what we have and

 5     this is what we agree upon.  I mean, that the phone book says, in August,

 6     165 is the chief, and that the witness has told us that in his

 7     recollection that number 165 was used.

 8             That's it.  And if there's any other interpretation, then it's --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I don't want to interpret anything, Your Honours,

10     only in line 15, page 5, Ms. Hasan said that if there is agreement on the

11     record that 165 is the extension of the chief of the Main Staff.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was the chief of this sector and that

13     seems to be the sector on which, in July, as far as I understand the

14     evidence, Mr. Tolimir was the chief, and that 165 therefore would, in the

15     opinion of the Prosecution and perhaps of the Defence as well, be the

16     phone number of the chief of this specific sector.

17             There we are.  We can proceed.

18             MS. HASAN:  If we could turn to 65 ter 23538.

19        Q.   Witness, you recall yesterday being cross-examined, and you were

20     asked about the -- the appropriateness of the order that came down from

21     General Tolimir to you vis-à-vis -- in terms of the -- the chain of

22     command.

23             I'd like to show you this document.  And what we have here is a

24     document from the -- we see on the top, VRS Main Staff.  It's from the

25     intelligence and security administration, and we see here it's dated

Page 19884

 1     29 May 1993.  And just below that we see it concerns prisoner exchange

 2     commissions work.

 3             Do you see that, Witness?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   And do you see that this -- this report is addressed to the

 6     intelligence departments of various corps, including the

 7     East Bosnia Corps?

 8        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we turn to the second page in the English, and

10     that's also the second page in the B/C/S, we see here that it's from

11     Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Now, I can give you an opportunity to briefly review the

14     document, if you wish, but I'd like to specifically turn your attention

15     to the very last paragraph.  And it says:

16             "In the future, all reports on the work of the commission, POW

17     exchanges, lists of exchanged persons and persons offered for exchange

18     shall be sent by telegram to the Republika Srpska Army Main Staff."

19        A.   Yes, I can see that.

20        Q.   Now, at the time of this -- this report dated 29th May 1993, were

21     you the chief of the intelligence and security organ in the

22     East Bosnia Corps?

23        A.   No, I was not.  It was as of mid-November 1993 that I assumed

24     that duty.  To be more precise, it took place on the 16th of November.

25        Q.   And -- and at the time of this -- of 29 May, do you recall what

Page 19885

 1     position you held?

 2        A.   At the time, my duty was in the security administration of the

 3     Ministry of the Armed Forces of the FRY, in Belgrade.

 4        Q.   Now, this instruction here by then-Colonel Tolimir that all

 5     reports on the work of the commission, POW exchanges, lists of exchanged

 6     persons and so on and so forth, did that instruction continue to apply at

 7     the time you were the chief of the intelligence and security organ of the

 8     East Bosnia Corps?

 9        A.   Yes, it did continue to apply.

10             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I'd offer 23538 into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 23538 receives number P2943,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  No objections were

15     raised.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. HASAN:  Could we now turn to P2143, please.

18        Q.   Now, Witness, this is a document, and it -- as soon as it shows

19     up on the screen, you'll see it also comes from the Main Staff of the

20     VRS.  And it's dated 20 January 1995, so when you did, in fact, hold the

21     position of chief of the security and intelligence organ.  Okay.  It's up

22     on our screens.

23             Again this -- what is called here an authorisation relates to

24     prisoner exchange and you see here that it is directed to the OBP,

25     abbreviation for the intelligence and security sections, of the

Page 19886

 1     Drina Corps and the East Bosnia Corps.  And I can give you -- I don't

 2     know if you're familiar with this particular document.  It deals with the

 3     prisoners -- the Lisaca - excuse my pronunciation - prisoners and there

 4     are some instructions to the IBK commission in terms of how to deal with

 5     them.

 6             Are you familiar with this document?  Perhaps we can also turn to

 7     the very last page where we can see that this is authored by

 8     General Tolimir.  And it's page 3 of the -- yeah, that's right.

 9             Do you see that there, Colonel?

10        A.   Yes, I see it.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MS. HASAN:  And if turn to -- go back to page 2 in the English,

13     and this is page 1, I believe, in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And General Tolimir is giving various instructions to the IBK and

15     he also does so to the Drina Corps.  And in the second-to-last paragraph,

16     full paragraph, we see:

17             "During the negotiations do not show any interest in the Lisaca

18     prisoners.  On the contrary, at an opportune moment misinform them that

19     Lisaca fighters are not an exchange priority because they had surrendered

20     to the enemy side, and that priority will be given to prisoners [sic]

21     involved in offensive combat operations."

22             And General Tolimir goes on to explain that this is essentially a

23     strategy of misinformation in order to get a more favourable exchange.

24             Witness, are you familiar with this instruction that

25     General Tolimir gave on the strategy involving a negotiation for the

Page 19887

 1     exchange of these Lisaca prisoners in January 1995?

 2        A.   I can see the document, that is to say, instructions I received,

 3     as well as the chief of the intelligence and security organ of the

 4     Drina Corps.  I read through the -- read the document, and I don't think

 5     there's any need for me to comment on its contents.

 6             As for the two people from the Drina Corps --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The -- the question simply was whether you are

 8     familiar with the document.  And I think the simple answer is yes, you

 9     are.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. HASAN:  This document is already in evidence, so I'll move to

12     the next one, which is 65 ter 19571, please.

13        Q.   Now, here, Colonel, we see another document from the Main Staff

14     of the VRS intelligence and security sector.  This one is dated a little

15     bit later.  We're looking at the 3rd of September, 1995.  And, again, the

16     subject matter is the exchange of prisoners, and there's a report here.

17     It is addressed to the commanders and the intelligence and security

18     departments of various corps, including the IBK, the East Bosnia Corps.

19             Do you see that there, Colonel?

20        A.   I do.

21             MS. HASAN:  And if we can turn to page 5 in the English, as well

22     as the last page of the B/C/S, which is page 2, I believe.

23        Q.   We see that this report is generated by General Tolimir.  Again,

24     in September of 1995, General Tolimir is still dealing with the issue of

25     the Lisaca members of the -- VRS members who were captured at Lisaca, as

Page 19888

 1     well as Vijenac - and I'm sure I've mispronounced that - and he is

 2     reporting and giving instructions on the exchange that is to -- is to

 3     take place with captured Muslims held at Batkovic camp.  And, of course,

 4     this is the camp we've been discussing over the last day.

 5             Are you familiar with this report?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the other -- the page with this

 7     information on this document, please, in English.

 8             MS. HASAN:  Certainly.  I can turn your attention perhaps to

 9     page 4 of the English, and this would be at page 2 of the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Where General Tolimir, after essentially addressing the

11     complaints of the East Bosnia Corps and others for the lack of prisoners

12     to exchange to get their -- their soldiers back, he provides the

13     following:

14             "The exchange commission chairmen must view the exchange proposal

15     integrally, as does the Main Staff VRS, since so far the Main Staff has

16     made the necessary number of prisoners available for the corps

17     commissions in circumstances where they did not have a sufficient number

18     of captured enemy soldiers to exchange for all the captured members of

19     the [sic] corps."

20             And he goes on:

21             "Security organs and exchange commission chairmen must also avoid

22     using parents' bitterness because it is not possible to exchange

23     prisoners who have been in prison for quite some time, particularly

24     because the Main Staff VRS is not responsible for this situation, rather,

25     it is the result of the small number of enemy soldiers captured by our

Page 19889

 1     units."

 2             Witness, I don't know if that refreshes your recollection about

 3     this document, but do you -- are you familiar with this and the subject

 4     matter?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the document.  I wasn't able to read it

 6     whole -- to read all of it; but, yes, I know it.

 7             MS. HASAN:  Your Honours, I'd offer 65 ter 19571 into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19571 receives number P2944,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. HASAN:

14        Q.   Colonel, now we've seen a number of documents here where

15     General Tolimir is reporting on providing instructions, discussing

16     strategy, and to your security and intelligence organ, among others, in

17     relation to exchange of prisoners.  Now, is General Tolimir's involvement

18     in these prisoner -- in this prisoner exchange process in line with his

19     duties and his responsibilities?

20        A.   Partly, yes; but on the other hand, partly no.

21        Q.   Sorry, sir.  You say partly yes and partly no.  Is it -- or is he

22     acting outside the line, outside the sphere of his responsibilities in

23     dealing with prisoners' exchange?  I mean, you received these

24     instructions.  You received these reports.  Is that how you took them?

25        A.   I interpreted this as an instruction giving directions as to what

Page 19890

 1     should be done and how.  I did not understand this to be an order.  If it

 2     was meant to be an order, then it is beyond his authority.

 3        Q.   Colonel Todorovic, these instructions that tell --

 4     General Tolimir provided, did you at any instance contravene his

 5     instructions?  Or directions?

 6        A.   There was no reason not to act pursuant to the documents showed.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No one asked you whether there were reasons.  The

 8     simple question was whether you ever did contravene those instructions.

 9     The answer, apparently, is no, if I understood your answer well.  Could

10     you please focus on the question and start with a direct answer to the

11     question.

12             MS. HASAN:

13        Q.   So, in looking at these documents, is there anything that you

14     have seen - and you're familiar with these issues - where General Tolimir

15     was acting outside of his responsibilities and duties in dealing with

16     these matters?

17        A.   It is difficult to tell now.  But on the whole, no, I can't see

18     anything that is contrary to the law.

19        Q.   I have one final question for you, Colonel, and it's in relation

20     to that paragraph I read to you from the 3rd September 1995 report from

21     General Tolimir, and he -- where he is mentioning -- or he is explaining

22     why there aren't sufficient prisoners to exchange.

23             How do you reconcile General Tolimir's statement about the small

24     number of enemy captured soldiers by the units with his instruction to

25     you just a few months earlier that he was sending 1.000 to


Page 19891

 1     1.200 prisoners to your camp?

 2        A.   There's no reconciliation on my part --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak up.  The

 4     interpreter didn't understand what he said.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come a bit closer to the microphone

 6     and to speak a bit louder so that the interpreters can hear you.  And

 7     could you please repeat your answer.  You started with:

 8             "There is no reconciliation on my part," and then you said?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If all the announced 1.000 to

10     1200 prisoners had arrived at Batkovic, then there would have been no

11     controversy as to the number of prisoners to be exchanged.  Or maybe I

12     should rephrase this and say there would be prisoners for -- for the

13     exchange.

14             MS. HASAN:  I have no additional questions, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Ms. Hasan.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Only a few, Your Honours, with

19     your leave.

20             Could we please get document 13321 from the 65 ter list.

21                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, I would like to skim through this

23     document.  It is from the Command of the quarter which you belong, and

24     the date is - and I would like to point this out - the 31st of August,

25     1995, which is two -- or, rather, three days prior to the document which

Page 19892

 1     was shown to you a minute ago and which was authored by General Tolimir.

 2     This is addressed to the Main Staff and says, inter alia, and it's

 3     General Novica Simic who says so, that on the previous day, on 30 August,

 4     a group of 300 parents and members of the families of captured soldiers

 5     from Lisaca gathered in the hall of the Ugljevik municipal assembly

 6     protesting to your decision to suspend the agreed exchange.  The meeting

 7     was attended by the president of Ugljevik municipality and some officers

 8     from the 1st Majevica Brigade.  The commander of the IB corps was also

 9     invited to the meeting, but due to the complexity of the situation caused

10     by the bombing, he didn't attend.

11             The atmosphere during the meeting was very tense with the

12     officers being insulted and the same applies to the IBK command and the

13     commander of the VRS.  The earlier formed board of parents managed to

14     draw the meeting to a close with the promise that they would request that

15     you urgently see them.  An eight-member delegation of the board came to

16     the IBK command at 2000 hours and informed the IBK commander of the

17     meeting and asked me to inform you.

18             And it goes on to say that there were four conclusions or,

19     rather, facts that require an answer.

20             Now that you've seen this document, please tell me if the letter

21     that you have just seen, the instruction or maybe document signed by

22     General Tolimir, could that be the -- the answer to the open issues

23     mentioned here in this document which was sent by Novica Simic to the

24     Main Staff three days earlier?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19893

 1        Q.   Bearing in mind -- I apologise.  I had to wait for the

 2     interpretation.

 3             Bearing in mind the extremely difficult situation with the

 4     captured Serbian soldiers from Lisaca, from Vijenac, the pressure of the

 5     parents which made it so felt daily and the bitterness of their families,

 6     would it be exaggerated to say that it was the Main Staff that had a

 7     reason and a need to have prisoners of war at that time that they could

 8     exchange for members of the VRS?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll now finish with one

12     question, and I apologise in advance, Your Honours.  I may not be able to

13     give the exact page reference.

14        Q.   But reading your -- the answer you provided on 2 February 1992

15     [as interpreted], that tells that you were not sure with regard to the

16     telephone extension of General Tolimir and the conversation you had with

17     him.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is.  I mentioned number 300-something.

19        Q.   It was 317.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   At some point the investigator mentioned some other numbers to

22     you, 168 and 165, and you said:  Yes, these are the numbers, to the best

23     of my memory, of the organ that was above me professionally.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Would the conclusion be correct that, at that time, you were


Page 19894

 1     unable to exactly remember the telephone extension that you used to

 2     communicate with at those days?

 3        A.   The numbers stated jogged my memory, and then I accepted that

 4     those were the two numbers I dialled frequently but forgot, due to the

 5     lapse of time.  I was remembered -- I was reminded, though.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, only for the

 7     sake of the record, let us correct page 16, line 14, the statement is of

 8     the 2nd of February, 2010, and not 1992.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I have no more questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I may have a question which is seeking some

11     clarification.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yesterday you were asked about a -- the exchange of

14     non-Serb population who left Bijeljina, which exchange was organised by

15     Mr. Djurkovic as the assistant commander for intelligence and security in

16     the East Bosnia Corps.  And then the question was whether this person had

17     to do anything with the Army of Republika Srpska, and you said he had

18     nothing to do whatsoever with the structure of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska but that, through certain officers, he tried to

20     establish some kind of contact or whatnot, but it was your corps

21     commander, and it was your position as well, "to keep him as far as

22     possible from our task and obligations."

23             Now, the question suggested that Mr. Djurkovic either was or

24     presented himself as the assistant commander for intelligence and

25     security in the East Bosnia Corps.  Now, what was it?  Was he not the

Page 19895

 1     assistant commander?  Did he claim to be the assistant commander?  Could

 2     you tell us?

 3        A.   Vojkan Djurkovic never had a position in the Army of the RS, and

 4     he most certainly was not assistant commander for intelligence and

 5     security in the Command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  I don't know if he

 6     may have misrepresented himself somewhere.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What, then, was his position?  Because apparently he

 8     was involved in an exchange of non-Serbs.  Do you know what his position

 9     was, if he was not the assistant, as mentioned before?

10        A.   As far as I know, apart from military exchange commissions,

11     commissions for the exchange of prisoners of war, members of the armed

12     forces, there were also civilian commissions for the exchange of

13     prisoners and population.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Such as the state commission, for example?

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that may be true, but was there any

17     co-operation between these civilian commissions or -- including the state

18     commission, with the commissions within the structure of the VRS?

19        A.   Yes, there was co-operation but at the highest level; that is, at

20     the level of the Main Staff and the civilian authorities of the RS.

21     Those of us who were lower down received instructions, such as that one

22     that was shown not long ago, instructions as to how to behave in a given

23     situation.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they not allowed to communicate with the --

25     with the corps-level commissions?

Page 19896

 1        A.   They probably did communicate, that is, forged provisional

 2     agreements, but they needed approval from the exchange commissions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  To communicate or to reach final conclusions?

 4        A.   Communication wasn't prohibited to anyone, but

 5     this decision-making was part of the chain of command.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Instead of "forged" in

 7     line 1, it should be "made."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, because I tried to understand what you

 9     said about Mr. Djurkovic.  You said:  He was not within our structures.

10     We should keep away from him as good as we could.  But, at the same time,

11     you tell us that he may have been in any civilian commission but that

12     communication with civilian commissions was allowed.

13             So, therefore, I do not -- still do not fully understand what was

14     so special that Mr. Djurkovic had to be kept away from army structures.

15        A.   This might take some more time, but we don't have enough time.

16     And it isn't necessary either.  There was the system of civilian

17     authorities and --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second -- one second.  Whether we have time and

19     whether we need it is, rather, for me to decide than to be determined by

20     you.  Take your time.  Explain to us what you wanted to say.

21        A.   In the territory of the East Bosnia Corps, especially the town of

22     Bijeljina where the corps command was, the civilian authorities

23     functioned normally, including the civilian police and the structure of

24     state security.  That applies also to the army and the Command of the

25     East Bosnia Corps within their limits.  Everybody tried to keep their

Page 19897

 1     backyards in order without anybody else interfering.  For various

 2     reasons, that was sometimes justified and other times were not.

 3             Vojkan Djurkovic, as far as I knew, but I never -- it was never

 4     necessary for me to know him really well.  He was engaged in what was

 5     called the voluntary exchange of civilians from Bijeljina and the

 6     surrounding places against persons from, say, Tuzla.  Whether parity was

 7     involved in that activity or not, I never made an effort to find out.  He

 8     never had anything to do with the army expect for the fact that sometimes

 9     he requested free passage through the front line, sometimes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But, again, I still do not understand, when there

11     are civilian authorities dealing with exchange, why this person was to be

12     kept away and not to be talked about; whereas communication with civilian

13     exchange authorities was -- was normal and ...

14        A.   Well, simply, if that was something he did on behalf of the

15     authorities, it was someone from the authorities who had to contact the

16     army and tell them that Vojkan was doing that legally and so on.  Instead

17     of him popping up on various occasions where he was misplaced.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

19             Have my questions triggered any need for further questions?

20             If not, Mr. Todorovic, this then concludes your evidence, and I'd

21     like to thank you very much for having answered all the questions that

22     were put to you, put to you either by the parties or by the Bench, and I

23     wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]


Page 19898

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  The next witness is protective

 3     measures of closed session so may I suggest we do it after the break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we moved into closed session - we would

 5     do that, by the way, after the break - I would like to inform the parties

 6     that for the next two weeks - so that's starting next week - we'll sit

 7     the usual morning-hour sessions, and I think we have exempted the 4th and

 8     11th of December, being Wednesdays, we'll sit in Courtroom II.  And I

 9     wonder whether now the matter has been resolved, the Defence is willing

10     to withdraw its motion.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are withdrawing our motion since it is moot

12     now.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it has become moot.

14             We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00, but we

15     then immediately start in closed session.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17                           [Closed session]

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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.


Page 19956

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             I dealt with the Chamber's decision in relation to

 3     65 ter number 30493 which had been MFI'd as P2946.  The consequence of

 4     our decision is that P2946 now is admitted into evidence, under seal.

 5             Then we have another four documents which were MFI'd; that is,

 6     P2947 up to and including P2950.  As a consequence of the earlier

 7     decision and having heard further submissions by the parties on these

 8     documents, the Chamber admits all four of them into evidence, all under

 9     seal.

10             We -- I hoped I would have time to deliver some decisions.  We

11     don't have that time.  Therefore, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll

12     resume tomorrow -- tomorrow, Wednesday, the 27th of November,

13     Courtroom III, 9.30 in the morning.  And I already would like to thank,

14     at this moment, everyone who made it possible to conclude the testimony

15     of the last witness today.

16             We stand adjourned.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

19                           November, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.