1 Friday, 6 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused not present]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not attending today.
11 Yesterday he explicitly waived his right to be present, and counsel,
12 Mr. Lukic, is in court.
13 The second issue I'd like to put on the record is that
14 Judge Moloto is, for urgent reasons, unable to sit today. This will be
15 of limited duration. It's only for today, not any longer, and
16 Judge Fluegge and myself have decided that it's in the interests of
17 justice to continue to hear the case under Rule 15 bis.
18 Then the Prosecution announced that it would wish to raise a
19 preliminary matter.
20 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Good morning. And a very brief matter.
22 As the Chamber is aware, Mr. Theunens is stationed in Lebanon at
23 the moment and involved in a security-related position. There have been
24 evolving events in Lebanon this week. The Prosecution is requesting that
25 the Chamber instruct VWU just to request or -- inquire from Mr. Theunens
1 whether there's any problem and how long is he able to stay and whether
2 there's any -- because we are unaware of his present position.
3 And secondly, Your Honour, next week we're not scheduled to sit
4 Wednesday. If the Chamber would also consider if -- whatever the
5 situation, if there is one with Mr. Theunens, if sitting Wednesday
6 instead of Friday would facilitate his return, if that's necessary, that
7 the Chamber would consider that. The Defence -- I discussed it with the
8 Defence and they have no objection for that change in schedule.
9 And we would appreciate the Chamber's consideration. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We will certainly consider it. At the same time,
11 the parties should be aware that since we're sitting four days a week,
12 the Judges started filling their agendas on Wednesday quite heavily, and
13 we'll have to see whether that still can be changed. But we'll consider
14 it. Much may also depend on any commitment of the Defence on finishing
15 cross-examination within the time estimates.
16 Then could Mr. Theunens be escorted into the courtroom.
17 Meanwhile, Mr. Weber, I make the following observation. The
18 Chamber urged you very much to seek to introduce documentary evidence
19 through the witness because the Chamber was concerned about the 434
20 documents still to be bar tabled. The Chamber counted the new documents,
21 documents not yet in evidence which were introduced through Mr. Theunens,
22 and I think we are at a total of five, which is a relatively low number.
23 I leave it to that.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: There is a difference in counting. Other counts say
2 it's ten, Mr. Weber. But whether it's five or whether it's ten,
3 apparently you ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When I said "five," I meant to say five that
6 were on the bar table motion, which now moved to viva voce introduction.
7 That number is relatively low, and the Chamber just hopes that you're not
8 relying on that when you don't move them in through the witness, that
9 they'll automatically be admitted from the bar table.
10 Good morning, Mr. Theunens.
11 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies for continuing with other matters when you
13 entered the courtroom. Perhaps needless to say, but you're still bound
14 by the solemn declaration you gave and Mr. Weber will now continue his
16 MR. WEBER: May I proceed, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 WITNESS: REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]
19 Examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Theunens.
21 A. Good morning, Mr. Weber.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P474, page
23 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. Mr. Theunens, we left off discussing the 6th of June. Coming up
25 before you will be operational directive number one issued by
1 General Mladic on 6 June 1992.
2 MR. WEBER: Could I please have page 3 of the English and page 2
3 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. Mr. Theunens, on this page, it indicates there are two stages
5 planned for VRS operations pursuant to Directive 1. Could you please
6 assist us with letting us know what part of the overall strategy as
7 defined by the six strategic objectives are being implemented by
8 General Mladic in this part of the directive?
9 A. Your Honours, as the first stage describes, it talks about
10 operations in the -- around Sarajevo airport, as well as deblocking
11 communications on the Sarajevo-Trnovo road, Trnovo being controlled by
12 the Bosnian Serb. So this can be seen in the context of strategic goal
13 number five, maintaining the division of Sarajevo. And secondly, mention
14 is also made of the grouping of forces to open the corridor between
15 Semberija and Bosnian Krajina which corresponds with strategic goal
16 number 2.
17 Of course, I mean, when you look at these directives and
18 subsequent orders and the manner in which these orders are implemented --
19 I mean, the directives and orders are implemented, they also result in
20 the implementation of strategic goal number 1; i.e., the separation of
21 the people.
22 Q. Yesterday at the end of the day we looked at an entry General
23 Mladic's notes on the same day of this directive. Does directive 1
24 reflect the areas and objectives discussed during General Mladic's
25 meeting with the other Bosnian Serb leaders?
1 A. It does, Your Honour, and I refer to my comment about the wider
2 vicinity of Sarajevo airport.
3 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the next page of
4 both versions.
5 Q. On this page of directive 1, we see the tasks for the
6 East Bosnia Corps or IBK, the SRK, and the Herzegovina Corps. First
7 focusing on the IBK, General Mladic instructs this corps to secure the
8 Zvornik-Milici-Vlasenica road and mop up or cleanse Birac of the
9 remaining enemy forces. With respect to this reference to Birac, is this
10 the same area near Zvornik where we saw the 28 May 1992 order from the
11 Birac Brigade to the Zvornik TO yesterday, the order that said move out
12 the women and children and place them into camps?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours. It's the same location.
14 Q. In the next paragraph are the tasks for the SRK. General Mladic
15 orders the SRK to regroup in such a way to mop up or cleanse parts of
16 Sarajevo with a majority Serb population. He then goes on to specify a
17 number of particular areas. Have you reviewed orders carrying out these
18 operations as part of your analysis?
19 A. I -- I did, Your Honour, and -- and, you know, maintaining not
20 only Serb control over parts of Sarajevo that had a Serbian majority or a
21 significant Serb presence as well as ensuring the implementation of
22 strategic goal number 5, the division of Sarajevo is an operation -- is a
23 goal that is pursued throughout the 1992 to 1995 conflict.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P458.
25 Q. This is a set of instructions dated 7 June 1992, a day after the
1 directive. They're from SRK corps commander Tomislav Sipcic to
2 subordinate commands of the SRK. Do these instructions show that
3 Directive 1 was immediately implemented by the SRK Command?
4 A. I mean, we should we would have to go to the page that shows the
5 decision of the commander of the SRK and the orders he gives to his
6 subordinate brigade commanders. But I mean, I remember this document,
7 and the answer is affirmative to your question.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11468. For
9 the record, a copy of this document is referenced in Mr. Theunens's
10 report under 65 ter 16989. The Prosecution is using this copy since it
11 has been referenced previously during these proceedings.
12 Q. This is a report from SRK corps Commander Sipcic to the
13 Main Staff dated 17 June 1992 concerning the status of combat operations.
14 Could you please tell us whether this report shows that the SRK carried
15 out Directive 1.
16 A. Indeed, Your Honours, it shows that. And just referring back to
17 what we discussed earlier, the two-down principle, here you can see that
18 the corps commander reports to the Main Staff about the activities of the
19 brigade; i.e., two down.
20 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the next page of
21 the English version.
22 Q. Mr. Theunens, directing your attention to paragraphs 6 and 7 of
23 this document, do you have any comments on these paragraphs?
24 A. Your Honours, paragraph 6 discusses -- I mean, quote/unquote,
25 treatment of civilian population where a distinction is made between
1 Serbs and non-Serbs in a sense that Croats are left together with the
2 Serbs, but Muslims are being separated from them.
3 And this, I mean this corresponds with the first strategic goal.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 11468
5 into evidence.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. IVETIC: No objection to the document. We do believe that
8 the witness has misrepresented it, but no objection to the document
9 itself coming in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It receives number P3059, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P3059 is admitted.
13 MR. WEBER:
14 Q. Mr. Theunens, probably for the remainder of this session I want
15 to go to a couple of other topics and then I will return to the
17 On page 242 of Part 2 of your report, you concluded that
18 General Mladic was:
19 "... in constant contact with his subordinate units, including by
20 being present at forward command posts near the zone of operations where
21 VRS units conduct significant combat operations."
22 Generally could you tell us how General Mladic's presence in the
23 field at these forward command posts facilitated his ability to exercise
24 command and control over VRS units.
25 A. Your Honours, summarising the documents I have reviewed in that
1 context, and these can be found in footnotes 924, 925 -- actually it
2 should be 925, I'm sorry, of Part 2 of the report. By being present as
3 close as possible to the area where the fighting is conducted,
4 communication lines are shortened, it's easier, for example, for
5 General Mladic to be in direct contact, direct physical contact with
6 subordinate commanders. He may well be visible there by the soldiers
7 which given the personality of General Mladic can be considered a
8 motivating factor. I base this conclusion again on reports of
9 subordinate commanders after visits conducted by General Mladic to his
10 subordinated units.
11 So the shortened communication lines allow it is for
12 General Mladic to be better informed and also to interact more closely
13 with the subordinate commanders who -- of the units that are conducting
14 the combat activities.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 09859.
16 Q. I'd like to go through a few documents with you related to
17 General Mladic's presence in the field.
18 This is a 1st Krajina Corps information report from General Talic
19 dated 17 July 1992. How does this report demonstrate General Mladic's
20 presence in the field?
21 A. Your Honours, the document shows that General Mladic, together
22 with, as it is identified in the document, the corps members of the 1 KK
23 command visits the forward defence lines of the 1st KK that are involved
24 in Operation Corridor; i.e., to establish the corridor between Semberija
25 or strategic goal number 2. General Mladic congratulates soldiers, and,
1 I mean, he's in direct interaction with them, and he also inspects
2 actually or he observes himself the level of implementation of the corps
3 that have been set, and this we can connect then to the directive we
4 discussed this morning, Directive number 1.
5 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 9859.
6 The Prosecution also notes just for the record that operational directive
7 1 provides orders to OG Doboj and the same operational group is also
8 mention in the directive number 3 which we'll discuss later today.
9 MR. IVETIC: No objection to the introduction of the document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: P3060, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P3060 is admitted.
13 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 50.
14 Q. This is a 21 January 1994 order from General Mladic to the SRK
15 Command. What does the first paragraph above the word "order" indicate?
16 A. Well, I -- I can see the bottom of the document in the B/C/S
17 version. It shows that General Mladic has to the -- that part of the --
18 of the Sarajevo front. It's not always easy to read the English, I must
20 JUDGE ORIE: It should be enlarged in such a way that the witness
21 can read it.
22 THE WITNESS: Because also in the previous document, I mean, I
23 can try to put my head on the monitor but I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: We have to provide you with legible texts.
25 Could we enlarge a little bit more the English.
1 Is this sufficient, Mr. Theunens --
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- or would you still need it.
4 THE WITNESS: That's fine, Your Honours. Thank you.
5 Yes, I just wanted to see who signed it, but I could see that
6 also on the B/C/S version, but it shows that General Mladic, going back
7 again to the first paragraph of the order, that he has toured the
8 Sarajevo front, I mean, or section of the Sarajevo front, and based on
9 that issues additional orders to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Under item 6 that we see before us, General Mladic orders that he
12 is to be kept informed of the execution of these preparations.
13 A. Mm-hm.
14 Q. How does this relate to his order?
15 A. As was discussed during the previous days, this is a regular
16 procedure for a commander to, yeah, confirm that the subordinate
17 commanders have to report on the degree of implementation or the status
18 of implementation of orders. And just very briefly, when you look at the
19 order -- I mean, General Mladic, looking at paragraphs 3, 4, 5, he gives
20 orders which are actually, I would say, instructions of a very tactical
21 nature where you would almost expect a battalion commander to take care
22 of these kind of issues. So to me, and I have also illustrated that in
23 the report with other examples, it highlights how closely General Mladic
24 is monitoring the way how his subordinate commanders implement his -- his
25 orders. And again, yeah, gives very detailed instructions of almost a
1 tactical nature which should be way below his level of responsibility as
2 commander of the Main Staff.
3 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 50 into evidence and
4 further notes that this order is one day before Scheduled Incident G6.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, I won't object to the document. But
7 are we now making submissions about the documents or are we just entering
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. Sometimes it is a short way, if you want to
10 deal with a document and where the one says date A and the other date A
11 plus 1, then it can be a short and efficient way, unless there's any
12 specific reason why you should doubt as to whether the dates are
13 accurate, yes or no.
14 Of course, you could ask the same question, is this -- but
15 Mr. Weber, there's no specific need to do that. Dates are dates.
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P3061, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 3 -- P3061 is admitted.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1028.
20 Q. Coming up before you is the 2 March 1993 order from
21 General Mladic to conduct a tour of inspection of the Drina Corps units.
22 If we could focus on paragraph 1 which continues at --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can that be enlarged further, please.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. This paragraph continues onto the next page.
1 When was this inspection to occur and for what purpose?
2 A. Your Honours, as the document states the inspection is to occur
3 from 3 to 4 March 1993, and the purpose is to assess the combat readiness
4 of four brigades of the Drina Corps, which, again, is -- is an
5 application of the two-down principle.
6 What is of interest is that the inspection team is to be - I
7 think that's further visible in the document - is to be led by
8 General Mladic.
9 MR. WEBER: Could we please see the next page.
10 THE WITNESS: Oh. I mean, I stand corrected because I
11 see that -- I must be confused with another document, I'm sorry, because
12 paragraph 2 -- paragraph 2 highlights or explains who are the members.
13 So I'm sorry, I can find it in another document.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. With respect to this document, does it show that other members of
16 the VRS Main Staff were also carrying out the inspection function of
17 command and control?
18 A. Yes and that is consistent with the role of the staff because the
19 staff is to assist the commander, so the commander cannot do everything
20 himself obviously, and he can delegate certain tasks. And obviously for
21 such a task, it would make sense indeed to delegate it.
22 Q. We'll come back later to the operations that were going on at
23 this time.
24 MR. WEBER: At this time, though, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter
25 1028 into evidence.
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It receives number P3062, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P3062 is admitted.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1018.
6 Q. This is a report from Radislav Krstic at the time of the
7 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade Command to the Command of the Drina Corps,
8 six days later. If we could please turn to page 2 of the English;
9 specifically item 4.
10 We see that Krstic is reporting that:
11 "During the day, our brigade was visited by members of the
12 General Staff headed by General Ratko Mladic."
13 How does this visit relate to General Mladic's carrying out of an
15 A. Well, if you read the rest of the paragraph, Your Honours,
16 paragraph 4, it explicitly states that the members of the Main Staff
17 headed by General Mladic inspected our, i.e., the units of the
18 2nd Romanija Brigade, their positions, and also familiarised themselves
19 with the situation on the front line and the conditions in which combat
20 operations are conducted.
21 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1018 into evidence.
22 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As P3063, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 69.
2 Q. This is a 13 June 1994 order from General Mladic. As we can see,
3 it was sent to all corps.
4 If we could scroll down, and if you could please further describe
5 to us what the purpose of this order is.
6 A. Your Honours, I discuss this document in footnote 1289 of the
7 second part of my report, page 349.
8 It concerns inspection visit -- or field inspection basically
9 conducted between 16th of June to the 2nd of July 1994. And the team is
10 being led by Lieutenant-Colonel General Mladic, and the purpose of the
11 visit -- I mean, I cannot see that on this part of the document.
12 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the next page of the English
14 THE WITNESS: Because I'm reading from my report now.
15 Yes, in -- under the section "I order," so paragraphs 1, you see
16 what the task of the inspection team are. And it -- okay, they have to
17 look in the combat readiness situation of commands and units, the levels
18 of preparedness, the implementation of tasks contained in Directives in 1
19 to 6. So it shows that subsequent direction -- directive is not
20 necessarily placed in all directives. I mean the strategic goals, the
21 six strategic goals do not change during the conflict, so if the goal set
22 then or task set in a directive have not been fully accomplished, they
23 can be reiterated in a new directive. Yeah. And then there are, I would
24 say, less important aspects to verify the preparation for Vidovdan Day,
25 which corresponds with the 28th of June.
1 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 69 into evidence.
2 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It receives P3064, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted.
6 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P731.
7 Q. Coming up before you will be a 11 April 1994 order for further
8 action from Visegrad TG commander Dragisa Masal.
9 We can see that this was sent to the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and
10 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and the Visegrad TG command post. If
11 we could scroll down to the bottom of the English, we see under item 7
12 the document forwards a message from General Mladic who visited the area
13 on 10 April. It indicates that General Mladic's message was:
14 "Keep pushing energetically onwards. Pay no attention to what is
15 going on around us. The Turks must disappear from these areas."
16 What does this message show?
17 A. I mean, the message shows that General Mladic was in the area
18 around that time, so on the 10th of April, and he gives actually an oral
19 order, which the commander of the tactical group considers sufficiently
20 important to cite it in his order to his subordinate units, and the text
21 is visible. I mean, there were no Turkish troops. I understand that the
22 word "Turks" is used for the Muslims or Bosniaks, and it's often
23 considered a derogatory term for the Muslim nationality, which later
24 called themselves Bosniaks in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 430.
1 Q. This is a 1 March 1995 order from General Mladic. Could you
2 please tell us what this order relates to.
3 A. Your Honour, this order relates to the situation in the Trnovo
4 sector. And it -- I mean, when you look further on in the order, it
5 refers to a meeting between the SRK, Herzegovina Corps Command, as well
6 as representatives of the VRS Main Staff and the RS MUP in the context of
7 conducting operations in the general sector of Trnovo because there's an
8 important communication line for the Bosnian Serbs in that location.
9 Q. And under item 1, what does General Mladic order?
10 A. He orders to create a so-called combat team consisting of -- of
11 military and police personnel, obviously in order to facilitate command
12 and control over VRS and RS MUP units conducting operations in that area.
13 Q. And is that area the area of Trnovo and Treskavica?
14 A. Yes, Your Honours.
15 Q. We see at the very beginning it says "at the SRK IKM," what does
16 this show about the presence of the SRK in this area of Trnovo and
18 A. Well, it shows that the SRK has established a forward command
19 post there to facilitate command and control over forces operating in
20 that area.
21 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 430 into evidence.
22 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It receives number P3065, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
1 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P1509.
2 If we can please zoom in on the English version.
3 Q. This is a 12 July 1995 dispatch from Dragomir Vasic of the
4 Zvornik CJB. What does this document show that General Mladic was doing
5 during his time in Bratunac?
6 A. Your Honours, the document in the second paragraph shows that
7 General Mladic holds a meeting or attends a meeting at the
8 Bratunac Brigade command at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th of July.
9 This meeting is also attended by General Krstic.
10 Q. Do you have any other comments on this document?
11 A. I -- I discuss this document in my report, and I'm trying to
12 locate where it is in order to see if I have additional comments. At
13 least it shows that General Mladic is in Bratunac on the 12th of July.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'll move on. For reference, it's in
15 Part 2 footnote 1303.
16 Q. It's okay, Mr. Theunens.
17 A. I mean, the paragraph -- the last sentence of paragraph 5 is also
18 quite indicative about the -- "What is to do be done with the civilian
20 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic.
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. On pages 333 to 352 of Part 2 of your report, you discuss the
23 situational awareness of General Mladic as the commander of the VRS.
24 Could you please, first, define the concept of situational
1 A. Your Honour, I took the following definition for situational
2 awareness. The understanding of the operational environment in the
3 context of a commander's task. This is a definition I took from a
4 doctrinal document from the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence. I have
5 not been able to find the concept of situational awareness as such in
6 SFRY armed forces doctrine, but what we have been discussing over the
7 past two days, the two-down principle corresponds with the same; that is,
8 that a commander has to be familiar with the activities of his units two
9 levels down, not just confined to the units but also all other aspects
10 that can influence the conduct of operations like, I mean, that's what we
11 call the operational environment, the weather, the enemy forces,
12 logistical constraints, and so on and so on. So all these factors.
13 Q. Based on your analysis, what can you conclude as to the level of
14 situational awareness possessed by General Mladic?
15 A. Your Honours, my conclusion is that General Mladic has a very
16 high level of situational awareness, and this is, for example, visible
17 through the inspections and other visits he conducts as well as meetings
18 with subordinate commanders. It is also visible through the regular
19 combat reports that are submitted to him. And as we have also seen over
20 the past days, if he feels that he is not adequately informed he -- he
21 himself or a subordinate member of the Main Staff contacts the unit for
22 which he believes, I mean General Mladic believes, that he is not
23 adequately informed and issues additional instructions in order to
24 rectify the situation.
25 Q. Mr. Theunens, I would now like to discuss with you the military
1 justice system in the VRS. There are three sections of your report where
2 you discuss the topic of military justice and military discipline and the
3 application of the Law of Armed Conflict. They are in Part 1 of your
4 report on pages 88 to 112 and Part 2 of your report on pages 90 to 103,
5 and pages 322 to 333. Could you please briefly tell us how these three
6 sections of your report relate to one another?
7 A. Your Honours, the first section, i.e., pages 88 to 112 of Part 1,
8 discuss the legal and doctrinal framework as it existed for the SFRY
9 armed forces, and most importantly there in addition, obviously, to the
10 All People's Defence law, we have the 1988 regulation on the application
11 of international laws of war in the armed forces of SFRY. It is my
12 conclusion that these were still valid in the 1992 to 1995 time-period,
13 including for the VRS.
14 In the second section, I discuss the VRS military discipline
15 system and military justice system, which is based on the military
16 discipline and justice system that existed in the JNA and the SFRY armed
17 forces, and we see that various laws and -- and regulations are adopted
18 and also guide-lines are issued.
19 And then in the last section, I discuss how this system is
20 implemented during the 1992 to 1995 war, reviewing orders issued by
21 General Mladic -- I should start first by Mr. Karadzic, General Mladic,
22 as well as other members of the Main Staff in order to enforce military
23 discipline in the armed forces.
24 There are also examples included of investigations ordered by
25 General Mladic. And -- and -- and, yeah, related documents.
1 Q. Going to the 1988 regulations and the parts that you discuss on
2 pages 93 and 94 of Part 1, what do these express in terms of the
3 commander's legal responsibilities?
4 A. Your Honours, they show, first of all, that a commander is
5 responsible for the action of his subordinates, and this can be found in
6 paragraph 21 of the 1988 regulations. It also shows that an officer has
7 to report violations of the laws of war if he has learned that such
8 violations may have taken place.
9 Paragraph 22 of the 1988 regulations discusses the responsibility
10 for violations of the laws of war committed on orders.
11 Q. Your --
12 A. Yeah?
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if it's okay with you, at this time the
14 Prosecution would simply tender the 1988 regulations. They've been
15 uploaded under 65 ter 4377A. An exhibit number has been reserved for
16 these regulations as P2185, marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the -- how many pages are we dealing
20 with? And how relevant are all of these pages.
21 MR. WEBER: We've gone through it and looked at in light of a
22 number of witnesses that have commented on it. We've reduced multiple
23 chapters, but we've included all the relevant chapters, and I think it is
24 approximately -- I can check. I believe it's over 50 pages, but they're
25 all relevant pages, in the Prosecution's view.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has a -- a number has already been reserved.
4 P2185 is admitted into evidence.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. As you mentioned --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, it is -- we're one minute short from the
8 usual time where we take a break.
9 MR. WEBER: Whenever it's good for Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could already Mr. Theunens be escorted out of the
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, at the same time, our conversation
14 yesterday at the end of the session was about timing. I expressed some
15 views; you expressed some views. Anything new to be reported?
16 MR. WEBER: I'm going to finish today, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that report.
18 We take a break. We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER:
24 Q. On pages 323 to 325 of Part 2, you discuss orders from
25 General Mladic instructing that perpetrators of certain particular acts
1 be prosecuted or subjected to disciplinary measures. What conclusions do
2 you draw from these orders?
3 A. Your Honours, I -- I conclude from these orders that
4 General Mladic has the authority to order investigations and -- but he
5 uses this authority only I would say selectively; i.e., the focus of the
6 enforcement of the military discipline and justice system, including his
7 powers to order investigations, are focussed on violations or crimes that
8 are directly related to the manner in which subordinates conduct
9 operations; i.e., if General Mladic sees certain shortcomings in the
10 manner they were conducted, he orders an investigation.
11 I have not seen any documents by General Mladic or -- or the
12 Main Staff for the investigation of alleged violations of the laws of war
13 conducted by members of the VRS or other units operating under the
14 command of the Main Staff.
15 There are certain documents, not specifically for General Mladic,
16 but for the RS and VRS in general concerning the investigation of alleged
17 violations of the laws of war, but those are focused on alleged
18 violations committed by members of the opponents' forces.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 647.
20 Q. Coming up before you will be a 17 August 1992 order from
21 General Mladic. And could you please explain to us what this order shows
22 in relation to what you just told us.
23 A. Your Honours, this -- this is in my view one of the examples that
24 illustrates or that forms the basis for my conclusion, that is, that
25 General Mladic, in this order, highlights a number of what he calls
1 negative acts, and with negative acts he means activities that have a
2 negative impact on combat readiness and the ability of the armed forces
3 to conduct combat operations.
4 I mean, from the title you can see there is a focus on -- on
5 desertions, for example.
6 Q. In paragraph 3, it says:
7 "Defecting to the enemy or wilfully deserting a combat position
8 by members of the RS army are to be energetically prevented by all means,
9 including the use of weapons."
10 What do you make of this?
11 A. Well, Your Honours, the text is -- is clear. I haven't seen
12 any -- any combat report or -- or other report indicating that, indeed,
13 weapons were used to prevent people or members of the VRS from deserting.
14 There is information, but again I haven't found a document about
15 that, but, for example, situation in September 1995 in the wider
16 Sanski Most area that there Arkan and his volunteers are present, among
17 other things, to prevent members of the VRS from abandoning combat
19 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 647 into
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The document receives number P3066, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: P3066 is admitted.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14522.
1 Q. This will be a 1 November 1994 order from General Mladic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we enlarge the English.
3 MR. WEBER: And if we can please scroll down to the lower
5 Q. Could you please tell us what this example demonstrates?
6 A. This is another example, Your Honour, of General Mladic using his
7 authority to order investigations. In the specific case of members of
8 the VRS, and here he refers to -- to commanding officers, of personnel,
9 who wilfully retreat or abandon defence positions. And this document has
10 to be seen in the context of the situation in -- in the western part of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina around that time, where we have a major offensive of
12 the 5th ABiH Corps from Bihac in eastern direction forcing the VRS to
14 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 14522 into evidence.
15 The Prosecution does have seven more examples that it would like to go
16 through. At this time, we're happy to tendered these also from the bar
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC: No objection to this document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And to the suggestion by Mr. Weber that he would
21 tender the other ones as demonstrative of the same?
22 Does Mr. Ivetic know what numbers they are --
23 MR. IVETIC: I do not.
24 MR. WEBER: I can --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, could you -- of course, we couldn't expect
1 Mr. Ivetic to express himself on documents not known to him.
2 For this one, Mr. Registrar, the number would be.
3 THE REGISTRAR: P3067, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is admitted into evidence.
5 I take it then, Mr. Weber, that you have seven more examples of
6 where General Mladic orders that, in case of certain violations, that
7 investigation and criminal charges should follow?
8 MR. WEBER: It's on the same topic, where -- yes. I mean,
9 there -- they're not all necessarily from General Mladic but they relate
10 to the same manner of senior members and what types of disciplinary
11 measures were taken.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I suggest that you sit together with
13 Mr. Ivetic - coffee or tea, I leave that to you - and see whether there's
14 any objection against them to be admitted. If there is agreement,
15 perhaps you could provide the 65 ter numbers already in advance to
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. At page 102 of Part 2, you discuss reports on the work of the
20 military prosecutor offices and what kinds of charges are reflected
22 I have two questions in this respect.
23 First, can you conclude whether or not the charges reflected in
24 those documents are consistent with the priorities shown by General
25 Mladic's orders we have just seen, to enforce military discipline?
1 A. Indeed Your Honours. I mean, most of -- or the cases that are
2 dealt with by the military prosecutors all refer to violations and
3 breaches of military discipline and military justice that directly affect
4 or that are directly related to combat activities. I have not seen any
5 reports of cases concerning alleged violations of the laws of war by
6 members of the VRS in these reports of the prosecutor's offices as well
7 the VRS military courts.
8 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P1963, page 2 of
9 the English and page 3 of the B/C/S.
10 Q. Mr. Theunens, we're going to be returning to a discussion of the
12 Before you is operational directive number 3 from General Mladic
13 dated 3 August 1992. I would like to draw your attention to section 2 of
14 this directive, which states:
15 "In operations to date, the SR BH army has achieved significant
16 results in protecting the Serbian people and their centuries-old home.
17 "Safe corridors have been established and the Serbian territories
18 linked, while large losses and manpower and MTS have been inflicted on
19 the enemy."
20 Do you have any comments on this first part and what is its
21 purpose of this retrospective recap in a directive, more generally.
22 A. Your Honours, directives, they start with an overview of the
23 current situation including the alleged activities of -- of enemy forces.
24 The reference to protecting the Serbian people and their centuries-old
25 home is, I think, is a constant between even end of 1991, but for sure
1 when the VRS starts in various documents of the -- starts with -- is
2 established, sorry. In various documents from the VRS Main Staff and
3 subordinate commands that basically the Bosnian Serbs are fighting or
4 have been forced to fight a war, which is in their view a defensive war,
5 that is intended at protecting the Serbian population and defending
6 Serbian lands, quote/unquote. And this was expressed in the first
7 sentence of title 2. The reference to the safe corridors corresponds
8 with the establishment of the so-called Posavina corridor between Krajina
9 and Semberija, i.e., strategic goal number 2, as well as also strategic
10 goal number 3, establishment of a corridor in the Drina valley and
11 eliminating the Drina as a border, even if strategic goal number 3 is not
12 fully realised at the stage of the release of Directive number 3 on the
13 3rd of August, 1992.
14 Q. With respect to the remainder of this section, do you have any
15 comments on this directive and what the tasks are ordering at the
16 operational/tactical level?
17 A. Well, we would have to see the section with the tasks, but in my
18 report on page 110, English version, second part, I discuss which goals
19 Directive number 3 foresees to implement. We spoke about strategic goal
20 number 2. There are reference to strategic goal number 5, as well as to
21 strategic goals -- strategic goal number -- number 6.
22 MR. WEBER: Could we just quickly go to the next page in the
23 English and page 5 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. And if we could please scroll down just a little bit further
25 about -- under operation objectives.
1 A. Mm-hm.
2 Q. Could you please just go through which parts refer to those
3 specific strategic goals.
4 A. Preventing the breaking of the blockade of Sarajevo,
5 Your Honours, corresponds with strategic goal number 5; i.e., maintaining
6 the blockade of -- maintaining the division, I'm sorry, of Sarajevo.
7 Determinedly defend axes leading from Cazin Krajina and western
8 Herzegovina towards central Bosnia, as well as Dubrovacka Zupa towards
9 Herzegovina is -- is -- I mean, is a mixture of the various objectives
10 because they are parts of objective number 2, corridor; number three,
11 elimination of the Drina as a border; number 4 to set the borders of
12 the -- the RS on the Una and Neretva river. Then we have another
13 reference to Sarajevo. The fourth bullet, I mean, crushing the,
14 quote/unquote, Ustasha forces in Posavina and Majevica, this corresponds
15 with goal number 2, the corridor.
16 Then below that we see the reference to Neretva. And -- and I
17 mean, explicit reference to border areas of Serbian territories which is
18 strategic goal number 4. Some reference to strategic goal number 3 when
19 you look at Gorazde. And I believe further on -- I mean, I thought there
20 was also reference to the access to the sea in the document, but that's
21 maybe further on in the document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Theunens, the first one you read, only prevent
23 the breaking of the blockade of Sarajevo --
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- it continue -- links that to strategic goal
1 number 5.
2 It continues: And also prevent the penetration of Ustasha forces
3 from Croatia and Central Bosnia towards the corridors in Posavina. Would
4 that be -- could we link that to strategic goal number 2.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina, could that be in
7 relation to the strategic goal preventing the Drina river to be the
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours, number 3. And there's also a
10 reference -- what can be seen in the context of number 4, establishing a
11 border on the Neretva because Herzegovina we're talking about -- I mean,
12 this is the wider area of the Neretva.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
14 MR. WEBER: Could we move onto another document. Could the
15 Prosecution please have 65 ter 02459.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 Q. These are the minutes of the 21st Presidency Session held on
18 2 August 1992, a day before the issuance of Directive 3. The session was
19 attended by Ratko Mladic, Radovan Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, Krajisnik,
20 and Colonel Tolimir. The agenda for the meeting includes under item 2 an
21 assessment of the military situation.
22 MR. WEBER: Could we please have page 2 of both versions.
23 Q. Under item 2, we see that Mladic briefed those present on the
24 military situation, describing the situation in each combat sector,
25 necessary tasks, and other matters. It is noted in these minutes that:
1 "Due to security considerations and the detailed nature of the
2 information, the conclusions and alternatives adopted were not put on the
4 Based on these minutes and your review of materials from other
5 sessions where General Mladic was present, what observations do you have
6 about General Mladic's role at either assembly sessions or in these
7 Presidency meetings.
8 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: I would object. The witness has been tendered as a
11 military analyst expert. Now he's being asked to opine as to political
12 and historical matters which goes the scope of his stated expertise.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The mere fact that matters
15 are considered, including some historical aspects, doesn't mean that the
16 subject matter is outside the scope of the expertise of the witness.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Mr. Theunens, do you need me to repeat the yes?
20 A. No, Your Honours, I can answer it.
21 On English page 334 of the second part of the report, I provide
22 an overview of meetings of the Supreme Command and/or the Presidency
23 which are attended by General Mladic or other senior representatives of
24 the VRS Main Staff throughout May 1992 to November 1995 time-period. And
25 from those we can conclude that General Mladic is the -- yeah, the main
1 interlocutor for the Supreme Command and the Presidency to be informed
2 about the military situation in -- in -- in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Footnote 1221, for example, even if -- refers to a decision of
4 the Presidency to establish a procedure whereby General Mladic can keep
5 them informed on a daily basis.
6 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2459 into evidence.
7 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P3068, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P3068 is admitted.
11 THE REGISTRAR: And just for the clarification of transcript,
12 65 ter number is 2549.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You misspoke, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. And thank you.
15 Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3033.
16 Q. Just continuing on the same topic, coming up before you will be
17 the minutes of the 21st Session of the SRBiH Presidency. We can see from
18 the document who's present. At the bottom of the page, it indicates that
19 General Mladic and General Gvero arrive during the session.
20 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the next page of the English
21 version and the B/C/S.
22 Q. Again, we see that the generals brief the Presidency in detail on
23 military and strategic questions and other matters, and there's also a
24 similar language about the matters not being put on the record. Do these
25 minutes show that the Bosnian Serb political leadership, including
1 Karadzic and Krajisnik, were receiving detailed briefings from
2 General Mladic during the course of operations that were being carried
3 out pursuant to Directive 3?
4 A. Yes, they do, Your Honours. And, again, as I mentioned earlier,
5 it's not restricted to a specific directive. It's throughout the
6 May 1992 to November 1995 time-period.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 689.
8 Q. We have looked at a couple of Presidency minutes that indicate
9 the Bosnian Serb political leadership were briefed in detail about
10 military strategic matters related to the VRS at their meetings. I want
11 to now turn your attention to the Bosnian Serb political leadership's
12 presence at military meetings.
13 This is a document dated 7 November 1992 from
14 General Manojlo Milovanovic to the VRS corps and the Doboj OG commander.
15 What does this document relate to?
16 A. Your Honours, this document has to be seen in context with the
17 corridor 92 operation. I would call it a second series of corridor 92
18 operations to establish a corridor between Semberija and Serbia actually
19 and Bosanska Krajina and also the Croatian Krajina, i.e., strategic goal
20 number 2, and such operations were conducted, first, in June/July 1992,
21 and the second series of operations of the same type were conducted in
22 November 1992, and those are discussed paged 198 and following in Part 2
23 of the report.
24 Q. According to this -- this order from -- this order that's
25 mentioned in Part 1, what time and place is this meeting supposed to
2 A. As the document states, Your Honour, a meeting is called for the
3 8th of November, 1992, in Bijeljina barracks, with the member -- with
4 General Mladic's as well as the members of the Presidency, the corps
5 commanders, the commander of the -- the air force and defence forces, and
6 the commander of OG Doboj.
7 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tender this is document at this time.
8 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As P3069, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P356, page
13 141 of both versions.
14 Q. Coming up before you will be an 8th November 1992 entry from
15 General Mladic's notebooks.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These two versions seem to be -- not to
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Just to move quicker to -- to focus on some specific points, I'll
20 just briefly indicate for the record that we see that it's a meeting on
21 Sunday, the 8th of November, 1992, between 10.37 and 5.00. As we can see
22 from this first page, Radovan Karadzic is present, and on this page - and
23 if we could just go forward in the following pages eventually to page
24 145 - we can see that the various corps commanders give reports and also
25 the commander of the Doboj operations group, Colonel Simic?
1 After this, we see that General Mladic's notes indicate he
2 discussed the strategic and operational position of the army of the RS
3 and assignments for further actions. Karadzic then, according to these
4 notes, offers congratulations and states:
5 "The army and our courageous officers contributed enormously to
6 the results we have achieved to date."
7 If we could go on to the next page of both versions, we see that
8 Mr. Karadzic is recorded as at the end of his comments as stating:
9 "Maybe it would be good" --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down while reading.
11 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. At the end, Karadzic states: "Maybe it would be good if we
13 solved the issue of the Drina." Based on the notes of this meeting so
14 far, and in relation to the document that we just looked at, is this the
15 meeting that was discussed in that previous document?
16 A. Your Honours, in the absence of information concerning another
17 meeting and taking into account the duration of this meeting, which
18 covers the largest part of the day, I think that's a reasonable
20 Q. On this page and next, General Mladic records Krajisnik speaking
21 and offering his admiration of the military. He then states:
22 "We have a disproportionate engagement of the army in relation to
23 the strategic objectives."
24 Could we please have the next page. He then indicates:
25 "We have not achieved: The Neretva; the sea; the Podrinje area."
1 And he states what:
2 "We have achieved: The corridor; separation with Muslims."
3 As of November 1992, does this assessment accurately reflect the
4 achieved and non-achieved objectives from the Bosnian Serb six strategic
6 A. Indeed, Your Honours, it does.
7 Q. Krajisnik continues to state:
8 "We must bring the war to an end. The most pressing thing is to
9 mop up Orasje and then to solve the problem of the Podrinje area and the
10 Neretva river valley as soon as possible ..."
11 He then states:
12 "The Muslims must not stay with us and they should not be given
13 any kind of autonomy.
14 "The most important objective is the task assigned to Zivanovic -
15 the mopping up the Drina - the most important task is separation from the
17 What is Krajisnik referring to in this part of these -- these
19 A. You mean which strategic goals or?
20 Q. Well, if could you first indicate what it is he saying in
21 relation to the strategic goals, but then secondly if could you comment
22 on the task that he's discussing with respect to Zivanovic.
23 A. Okay.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
1 MR. IVETIC: I would object. Now the witness is being asked to
2 opine about what a politician is talking about as to a strategic
3 objective. Again, this witness has been presented as a purported
4 military analyst expert, meaning that he is related -- in relation to the
5 command and control within the military, so I don't think that offering
6 speculation or opinion as to what politicians mean by their words is
8 JUDGE ORIE: Since this politician is engaged in a meeting with
9 the military, it's relevant.
10 At the same time, Mr. Weber, could I add to this, that to ask the
11 witness seven times, Neretva river, is that Neretva a strategic goal,
12 et cetera, or is it -- the Chamber has a -- I wouldn't say a thorough but
13 at least a firm understanding of strategic goals, and unless there's any
14 specific reason to -- what seems to be obvious in terms of language
15 linked to strategic goals, that doesn't need that much further
17 You may proceed.
18 MR. WEBER: Could you please tell us, if you have --
19 JUDGE ORIE: And, of course, it includes that the objection was
21 MR. WEBER:
22 Q. Could you please tell us if you have any comments on this task
23 that's being referred to with respect to Zivanovic.
24 A. What is of interest is looking at the timing because this meeting
25 takes place on 8th of November, and 11 days later we have the release of
1 directive for further operations number 4, which discusses tasks in
2 relation to the situation in the -- in the Podrinje and -- and the Drina
3 valley in great detail, showing consistency with, for example, at --
4 Mr. Krajisnik says in relation to the Muslims.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please go to Directive 4. It
6 is P1968. If we could go directly to page 2 of the English and page 3 of
7 the B/C/S.
8 Q. I'd like focus first your attention on section 2 of this
9 directive. There is no need, as we've heard, for you to comment
10 unnecessarily on individual strategic goals. But could you please read
11 the section and just indicate whether or not this confirms what had been
12 accomplished up till date?
13 A. Yes, indeed, that's what the document says. So, I mean, we see a
14 continuity in the nature of the operations that are being conducted, in
15 continuity including consistency with the six strategic goals.
16 MR. WEBER: Could we please go to the top of page 3 in the
17 English and page 5 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. According to this directive, what tasks from Directive 3, the
19 previous one, had not been carried out at the time of Directive 4?
20 A. General Mladic gives or lists four tasks and they can be found at
21 top of English number 3 and B/C/S page number 5. And I think -- I mean,
22 as Your Honours have said, the link with the specific strategic goals is
24 MR. WEBER: Could we go to the top of page 4 of the English and
25 page 7 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. At the top of this page, we are looking at a continuation of a
2 section from the previous, related to aims of operations. Could you
3 please tell us whether -- you have any comments about the aims of the
4 operations ordered pursuant to Directive 4?
5 A. No, I mean, I'm sorry, I will probably repeat myself, that I see
6 a consistency. When you look at all the directives, obviously they are
7 released in different conditions, I mean, in relation to the gains the
8 VRS has made while implementing the previous directive, the attitude of
9 the international community plays also a role obviously in relation to
10 the -- the defining the forthcoming tasks for the VRS, but otherwise
11 there is a consistency for all -- I'd say for sure the first eight
12 directives with the six strategic goals. The ninth directive is in my
13 view a special given that it's released after the international community
14 has launched a major intervention against the Bosnian Serbs and also the
15 Bosnian Serbs have suffered significant losses in western
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are talks ongoing at the higher level, I
17 mean, in Belgrade, involving President Milosevic for a negotiated end to
18 the conflict. And I'm talking now about the October /November 1995
19 time-period. But prior to that, as I mentioned, there is consistency
20 between the directives, successive directives, and the six strategic
22 Q. If I could focus you on one particular passage in this section.
23 It's in the -- where General Mladic talks about the second stage. He
24 states: [As read] "That -- that second stage is lasting until the final
25 liberation of all -- the territories of RS." Could you please tell us
1 how this relates to the long-term nature of directives that he issued?
2 A. Well, the overall goal for the Bosnian Serbs is to establish a,
3 quote/unquote, Serb republic that includes all the territories that, in
4 view of the -- or in the opinion of the Bosnian Serbs are Serb. The
5 problem as I mentioned during the previous days is that at least in the
6 beginning of the war that also includes territories where the Serbs do
7 not have a majority, and, I mean, in those territories where they also
8 have a majority, there are still non-Serbs present who do not necessarily
9 want to stay in a, quote/unquote, Serbian republic but who prefer to stay
10 in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the
12 English and page 11 of the B/C/S.
13 Q. This is in the tasks section of the directive, under, I believe,
14 part (d) is the tasks for the Drina Corps. Do you have any comments on
15 these tasks that were issued to the Drina Corps?
16 A. Your Honours, this refers to what I mentioned earlier to the
17 comments by Mr. Krajisnik at the meeting in Bijeljina on the 8th of
18 November, where he spoke about the need to remove the Muslim population
19 from the -- the wider Drina valley. And -- and, here under the tasks of
20 the Drina Corps, this -- those comments are explicitly included.
21 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2095.
22 Q. This is a 24 November 1992 decision for further operations from
23 Zivanovic. Does this document from Zivanovic indicate that Directive 4
24 was immediately implemented by the Drina Corps?
25 A. Indeed, Your Honours, this order by the commander of the Drina
1 Corps is consistent with the tasks he has received from General Mladic
2 through directive for further operations, number 4.
3 Q. Do you have any other comments on what Zivanovic orders under
4 item 1?
5 A. I mean, obviously the order of the corps is more detailed than
6 the -- than the directive. Because the lower you go in the hierarchy,
7 the more specific instruction -- sorry, orders will become. And this is
8 consistent with doctrine. But, again, the commander's intent, as was
9 expressed in the Directive number 4, is reflected in -- in this order by
10 the Drina Corps, and the references to the Muslim population are --
11 again, as I mentioned, consistent with the instructions received through
12 Directive number 4.
13 Q. In your report you analyse a number of VRS operations. I'm not
14 going to go through all of them with you today. But among them are
15 Operation Udar, Proboj, Proljece, Mac 1, 2, and 3. Were these operations
16 carried out, in part, by the Drina Corps between January and June 1993?
17 A. That -- that is correct, Your Honours.
18 Q. Were they carried out in a manner consistent with the -- with
19 Directive 4?
20 A. Yes, Your Honours, and that also applies to similar operations
21 conducted in 1994, because there was, for example, Mac 94, as you can see
22 on English page 169 of my report.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 05500.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I was still trying to find in the
25 previous document, which was the Drina Corps order to the Zvornik Light
1 Infantry Brigade, whether it was also specifically mentioned that the
2 civilian population should leave with the -- but I may have missed it.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm happy to return to it if you're --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Theunens tells us where I can find it,
5 then -- it was still in paragraph 1?
6 THE WITNESS: It was on the top half of the page -- of the
7 English page -- I mean, of page 1 in English on the top half.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Page 1. I'll further look at it, and if I still
9 can't find it later, then I'll come back to it.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, it was on the top of the page we saw
12 at the end, so I think that was page 2, where it was stated to remove the
13 Muslim population from Cerska, Zepa, and Gorazde.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'll find, or not, and, if not, then I'll let you
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. This is a 2 May 1993 combat order from Drina Corps
19 Deputy Commander Skocajic. Could you please tell us what the status of
20 the operations are according to the first paragraph of this report?
21 A. Your Honours, by that date the United Nations have declared the
22 Srebrenica enclave a safe area. And the VRS Main Staff, I mean, in the
23 introduction to the order when they provide an overview of the general
24 situation addresses that decision by describing it as, quote/unquote,
25 internationalising the problem of the area of Podrinje. Yeah, reference
1 also made to the agreement on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica. So
2 that's basically the operational context in which -- in which this order
3 has to be seen.
4 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the -- page 3 of
5 the English, and the bottom of page 2 of the B/C/S.
6 Q. And I'm referring you to section 2 of this order, setting out the
7 task of the army. Do you have any observations on this section.
8 A. Perhaps on the expression "ocisti" or "clearing up." I
9 understand that sometimes there's confusion because it's translated as
10 cleansing and then associations are made with ethnic cleansing. But from
11 a military point of view, clearing the battle-field means to remove
12 resistance pockets or pockets of enemy forces that may still be present
13 as well as unexploded explosive, corpses of -- of, I mean, animals or
14 anything else that is left that may interfere with the control one has
15 over the territory that one has captured.
16 So it's a normal tactical concept. And otherwise, there is again
17 a reference to enabling -- I mean, in the fourth line of paragraph 2:
18 [As read] "Enable the Muslim population to move out to other areas, the
19 central part of the former BH, or to recognise the authority of the RS."
20 And I think have addressed that earlier, that is, that -- I mean,
21 strategic goal number 1, it is not excluded that non-Serbs who are loyal,
22 as it is described, to the RS or who accept Serbian rule, quote/unquote,
23 as it is sometimes mentioned in VRS documents, those people can stay but
24 the others, as is illustrated here, have to -- to leave.
25 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5500 into evidence.
1 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Receives P3070, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P3070 is admitted.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 13437.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. This is a VRS Main Staff report on the conclusions from the
9 assessment of the situation. Did you review this document during
10 proofing? Dated 30 May, 1993.
11 A. Yes, I believe I did, Your Honours.
12 MR. WEBER: Could we please go to page 4 of this document.
13 Q. In the second paragraph, under the strategic and operational --
14 operative situation and problems, how does this paragraph relate to the
15 exercise of command and control by the Main Staff during the operations
16 that were carried out in the Podrinje area?
17 A. Well, in relation to the -- to the -- the -- the role of the
18 Main Staff, it is explicitly mentioned that representatives of the
19 Main Staff of the VRS have been in the zone of operations of the Drina
20 Corps since January 1993, and there also -- a forward command post has
21 been established in that area.
22 Q. In the following paragraph, is there a direct reference to
23 strategic objective number 3?
24 A. Yes, there is, Your Honours. I mean, between the quotation marks
25 at the end of the paragraph.
1 Q. Going onto the next paragraph, what does -- do you have any
2 comments on what that shows in terms of the Muslim forces and others?
3 A. As it shows that actually three enclaves have been created as a
4 result of operations, so part of the population -- or the majority,
5 actually, of the Muslim population has -- has fled according to the
6 document, and the reminder -- remainder, sorry, of the troops of the ABiH
7 are grouped in three enclaves: Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde.
8 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm noting the time. This is a -- a
9 good spot to -- to break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break.
11 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter past midday.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.
16 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to address the Prosecution on two exhibits.
18 On the -- this is about the decision on the 38th Rule 92 bis
20 On the 28th of November, the Chamber has admitted into evidence
21 two maps of Rogatica; namely, P3019 and P3026. Both maps have B/C/S
22 writings on them, and there are no English translations attached. The
23 Prosecution is instructed to upload such translations and the Registry is
24 already instructed to attach those translations once uploaded, unless the
25 Prosecution would make a clear statement that it would not rely on any of
1 those portions of text, but then we'd like to have that clearly on the
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders the last document 65
6 ter 13437.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could you please slowly repeat the number
9 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 13437.
10 MR. IVETIC: The Defence has no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Registrar is invited to assign a number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It receives number P3071, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P3071 is admitted.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 23609.
15 Q. Before you is a VRS Main Staff security intelligence report
16 regarding the percentage of territory held by each of the three ethnic
17 groups in BH. The report is from Colonel Tolimir and is dated
18 14 September 1993. What does this report show?
19 A. Your Honour, the report shows the Bosnian Serb interpretation of
20 the situation on the battle-field, i.e., what amount of territory is
21 controlled by which party.
22 Q. And with respect to the VRS, how much territory is controlled?
23 A. According to the document, 68.09 per cent.
24 Q. And does this also then describe the territory controlled by what
25 is the so-called BiH army?
1 MR. WEBER: If we could please scroll down in the English.
2 THE WITNESS: It does and this -- I mean, this so-called BH army
3 stands for the ABiH. And then a distinction is made with Cazin Krajina
4 because by that time or maybe a bit later because I -- is the document
5 from September 1993? It is difficult to see.
6 MR. WEBER:
7 Q. It was. It was dated 14 September, 1993.
8 A. Yeah. Then Fikret Abdic declares his own entity, the so-called
9 Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, in the northern part of the
10 Cazin Krajina.
11 Q. Could we please have the next page English. I believe the
12 information is still on this page in the B/C/S. Do you have any comments
13 on the enclaves that are indicated on this page?
14 A. Yes, it -- I mean, the document shows the -- the three -- it
15 shows Sarajevo as an enclave and then the three enclaves in eastern
17 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 23609.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number P3072, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P359,
23 page 53 of both versions.
24 And, Your Honours, when this comes up, if it would expedite the
25 record, I would be happy to lead in the attendees at this meeting if it's
1 not objected to by the Defence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: I'm sorry, no objections.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as suggested, Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, coming up before you will be another entry from
7 General Mladic's notebooks regarding a meeting on the 13th and 14th of
8 December, 1993.
9 In attendance from Serbia are Slobodan Milosevic,
10 General Perisic, Zoran Sokolovic, the head of the Serbian MUP;
11 Jovica Stanisic, the assistant minister of the Serbian MUP and chief of
12 the State Security Service; Radovan Stojicic aka Badza, an assistant
13 minister of the Serbian MUP, head of public security; Milan Tepavcevic, a
14 deputy of Mr. Stanisic, Jovica [Overlapping speakers] --
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. And General Mrksic. The names that -- from the RS had been
19 discussed many times on the record. Did you review this meeting during
21 A. Yes, I reviewed these notes during proofing.
22 Q. Do you have any comments on Jovica Stanisic's initial statement
23 and what the purpose of this meeting is?
24 A. Well, according to the -- the -- the -- the comments attributed
25 to Jovica Stanisic, the meeting is about Serbia assisting the Bosnian
1 Serbs in order to improve their, quote/unquote, operational and tactical
3 Q. Now, on Tuesday, at page 20264, I asked you at what level of
4 command are strategic decisions made, and you provided an answer about
5 the various levels of decision-making at the strategic level, operational
6 level, and tactical level.
7 Do you have any comments on this page based on what level of
8 either planning or decision-making is involved at this meeting?
9 A. Well, given the -- the positions held by the participants in the
10 meeting, one would expect that strategic level decisions are -- are made.
11 I mean, sometimes the -- the distinction with the operational level may
12 be difficult to make, but at least would you expect strategic level
14 Q. You say based on the participants at the meeting. Why do you say
16 A. Well, I mean, you have senior officials from the VJ; namely,
17 General Perisic who is the chief of General Staff and General Mrksic who
18 is commander of the special forces corps. You have senior officials of
19 the Republic of Serbia, I mean, President Milosevic, as well as of the
20 MUP Serbia, and you have -- you read them out, and you have the
21 counterparts from the Republika Srpska. So -- I mean, those are the
22 highest political authorities and -- sorry, political and military
24 Q. Do you have any comments on Karadzic's -- the notes in terms of
25 Karadzic's statements on this page and what their relevance are to this
2 A. Well, at the bottom of the page you can see that he reiterates
3 the six strategic goals. It may be a -- a typo or something -- I mean,
4 not a typo but an error in taking notes. But both strategic goals 5 and
5 6 have been inverted. But otherwise they -- the goals as set or the
6 strategic objectives as set by Karadzic are the same ones as he mentioned
7 in May 1992 -- 12 May 1992 at the 16th Assembly Session and as have also
8 been reiterated in the various directives of the VRS.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 60 of both
11 Q. On this page we see additional notes of comments by
12 Jovica Stanisic and also then later on by Tomo Kovac. Do you have any
13 comments on what these notes show?
14 A. Your Honours, Jovica Stanisic's comments or those attributed to
15 him show that he is discussing the -- the -- the -- a special group
16 for -- for night-time distance operations, which would consist of 100 to
17 120 men. I mean, we have to see this in context of other documents, but
18 at face value one would expect that he is talking about making a group of
19 the MUP Serbia available with the characteristics as he describes there,
20 and he also talks about setting up a Joint Staff from -- consisting of
21 representatives of MUP Serbia as well as from VRS units. I mean,
22 Visegrad and Sinica are brigades of VRS units.
23 Q. What does this show about Jovica Stanisic's level of situational
24 awareness of events that are going on in Bosnia at both the operational
25 and tactical level?
1 A. Well, it shows at least for this part that he discussing
2 operational/tactical matters. I mean, he -- he seems -- he's familiar or
3 he seems to be familiar with that part of the Drina valley, yeah, which
4 shows an understanding of tactical -- of the tactical and operational
5 situation in that area.
6 Q. Just going down to Tomo Kovac, do you have any different comments
7 than what -- those you have just made with respect to Mr. Stanisic or any
8 more detailed one?
9 A. No, it's the same level of detail.
10 Q. Prior to this date --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- could I ask -- is everything about
12 Mr. Kovac, is that on this page or ...
13 MR. WEBER: It may continue onto the next page, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because before we say that it is the same
15 detail, could we have a look at the next page?
16 It's unclear to me whether this continues to represent what
17 Mr. Kovac said.
18 Could I ask you, Mr. Theunens, when you said the same level of
19 detail what did you have in mind? And could we go back to the previous
21 THE WITNESS: I -- I can answer without the page. What I had in
22 mind was the level of detail in relation --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. But I'd like to have the previous page. There
24 we are. Zoom in on the lower part in the Stanisic and the Kovac
25 observations. Yes. You said that what is written down here shows a
1 similar level of detail compared to what Mr. Stanisic said.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, my answer referred to the nature
3 of -- of forces that have to be -- or that seem to be under discussion to
4 be engaged to conduct operations. Kovac does not go into geographic
5 details but he talks about -- I mean, he gives detailed information on
6 the size of a unit that can be made available including the deadline
7 within which that can be done.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that, but how does that show any
9 awareness of the situation on the grounds? If I say, I'll spend
10 500 euros on a charity, what does that say about my knowledge about the
11 charity? It says something about that I'm willing to spend 500 euros.
12 So, therefore, Mr. Stanisic refers to brigades and positions --
13 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- and in that context offers or at least says how
15 much men he would be willing to make available. So I was a bit puzzled
16 by your observation that it was a similar level of awareness.
17 THE WITNESS: I -- I apologise for the misunderstanding,
18 Your Honours. What I meant by the level of detail was, as I explained in
19 my subsequent answer, the level of detail in relation to the -- the size
20 of a unit and the deadline within which that could be made available.
21 Kovac obviously does not make any comments on the tactical situation in
22 the area.
23 One would assume that, I mean, when is he talking about engaging
24 a unit that he also understands where this will be and if he gives a
25 deadline. The location where that unit is to be used obviously impacts
1 on a deadline because there is a duration of transport. So -- but I do
2 agree with you he does not give any -- in his answer or in his comments
3 he doesn't give any detailed -- any comments -- he doesn't comment at all
4 on the geographic or tactical situation in the region discussed by
5 Mr. Stanisic.
6 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm again looking at your answer in relation
9 to Stanisic and then in relation to Kovac. And you said about Stanisic:
10 "He seems to be familiar with the situation in that part of the
11 Drina valley here which shows as understanding of tactical and
12 operational understanding in that area."
13 And then you were asked about Kovac. You said:
14 "No, it's the same heavily of detail."
15 In your first answer to Stanisic, you clearly referred to a -- I
16 would say knowledge of the tactical situation, not just about numbers to
17 be made available. So, therefore, it was somewhat confusing, now having
18 heard your further explanation.
19 Mr. Weber you may proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Mr. Theunens, how did these comments relate in terms of the
22 context of this meeting and the strategic goals that we saw Mr. -- or
23 Dr. Karadzic discuss earlier? At least according to the notes.
24 A. I'm not sure what I have to say because, I mean, it's clear in
25 the document. We are talking about the situation in the Drina valley
1 where Mr. Karadzic gives --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think I earlier observed that if the story is
3 about the Drina valley and then when you ask the witness does that
4 correlate in any way with the strategic goals that unless there is any
5 reason to -- despite mentioning Drina valley, it nevertheless should be
6 understood as Neretva, unless we have such an exceptional situation, the
7 Chamber is available to recognise that Drina valley and Drina valley are
8 the same words and therefore refer to the same strategic goals unless
9 explained otherwise.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. In your report, you've included a significant number of
13 intelligence reports from Zdravko Tolimir. Is Mr. Stanisic including
14 amongst the addressees on these intelligence reports or a good number of
16 A. Yes, he is Your Honours. And this is discussed on page 341 of
17 Part 2 of the report, and I mean the reference -- the inclusion can be
18 seen in the addressee list of the references under footnote 1245.
19 Q. What is the reason that individuals would be included on an
20 addressee list of an intelligence report?
21 A. It shows that there is a recognised need to know for these
22 individuals to obtain or to receive that information.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if Mr. Theunens would not have answered
24 the question, I would have said you address something to someone because
25 you want him to know about what is in that document.
1 Now, have you ever heard of any other reasons to address -- well,
2 there may be a more specific one, to act on it or something like that.
3 But even if you want to know whether someone has to act upon something,
4 you'd need to know the content. I mean, let's not ask for the obvious.
5 Let's focus on what really matters.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'm going to move onto another topic right now.
9 I'd like to talk to you about the topic of logistics and General Mladic's
10 involvement in this area.
11 Could you please generally tell us, first, the nature of
12 General Mladic's involvement in logistics.
13 A. Your Honours, summarising the documents I have discussed in my
14 report, General Mladic issues orders on how logistic support can be
15 requested from the VJ, and he also issues orders on the redistribution of
16 certain weapons systems. For example, when we are talking about the
17 modified air-bombs and the equipment that is required to use them. He
18 also issues several, I would say, numerous requests to his counterpart in
19 the VJ, General Perisic, to obtain logistic supply - mainly ammunition
20 and weapons - for the VRS in order to conduct operations between, say,
21 May 1992, and where Perisic is concerned, of course, and this is after
22 August 1993 and November 1995.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have P3029, English page
24 435 and B/C/S page 432.
25 Q. Mr. Theunens, I'm going to be calling up page 219 of Part 2 of
1 your report.
2 On this page of the report, you include an excerpt of
3 General Mladic's statements during the 50th RS Assembly Session in
4 April 1995. What does his comments specifically show about the condition
5 or his involvement in VRS logistics?
6 A. I mean, the comment doesn't really reflect General Mladic's
7 involvement as I have explained in my previous answer, but it shows his
8 awareness of the logistic requirements, in particular, for what
9 ammunition is concerned for the VJ -- for the VRS, and he -- I mean, he
10 also provides detailed information on the consumption of ammunition by
11 the VRS during combat operations. And, as I mentioned, he gives a very
12 detailed breakdown as to the provenance of that ammunition. For the
13 different types of ammunition.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution now go to 65 ter 8869.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move on, is this uncommon for a commander
16 at his level to be briefed by his staff and subordinate units on precise
17 percentages to have this kind of knowledge? I mean, I do understand
18 that - and I take it, unless you believe otherwise - that he did not had
19 all these percentages ready from the top of his head but that someone
20 provided to him, so he most likely has asked for it or at least it was
21 offered to him, is that uncommon if you address the audience in the
22 situation where he was in?
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I think there are different
24 components in your question.
25 It's obviously not uncommon that the commander of the Main Staff
1 or the chief of General Staff receives detailed briefings on the
2 logistics situation of his army, i.e., what is consumed and what is
3 available and where does it come from.
4 However, on -- this entry refers to what General Mladic himself
5 is stating to the members of the RS Assembly Session. So obviously he
6 has not made a calculations himself. He is sharing the information he
7 has obtained from his assistant commander for logistics. I mean, it
8 could be debated whether the members of the parliament need such detailed
9 information. But in any event General Mladic, who had obtained this
10 information, considered it necessary to share it with the assembly
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, necessary or not, he did it.
13 THE WITNESS: He did it, yeah.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. Mr. Theunens, the document that's up before you -- actually, the
18 exhibit that -- the upload in front of you contains a series of documents
19 related to different types of materiel.
20 The first document on this is 23 January 1994, Main Staff
21 logistic sector notification from Major-General Djordje Djukic. Does
22 this document show specifically where the mortar shells -- the supply of
23 mortar shells are coming from? At least according to this document.
24 A. Yes. I mean, in paragraph 3 mention is made about the supply of
25 mortar shells, i.e., rounds by a factory in Valjevo, in Serbia.
1 And this has been approved by, I mean, by the chief of general --
2 by the General Staff of the VJ. Yeah, that's what the document states.
3 It's difficult to find out what happens after; I mean, how these mortar
4 rounds are to be brought to the RS.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have the next page.
6 These documents are not necessarily linked in that fashion, so as
7 not to confuse the matters.
8 Q. This is a document from Pretis.
9 A. Mm-hm.
10 Q. What does this document indicate in terms of General Mladic's
12 A. The document states that the deployment of -- of ... guns, I
13 mean, two types of gun for operational support that are being
14 manufactured in Belgrade, that this deployment is to be approved by
15 General Mladic. So it shows co-operation between not only the VJ and the
16 VRS but also their respective ammunitions or weapons factories and
17 production facilities with the approval, obviously, of the -- of the VJ
18 and the VRS.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm going to have similar questions on
20 the next couple of documents. I don't know if Mr. Ivetic is okay with me
21 tendering this document all of these documents at this time. There's a
22 total of --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, it's --
24 MR. WEBER: -- five documents in this upload.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's Pretis --
1 MR. IVETIC: I think we do need to have questions because, in
2 particular, I'm reading this as being Pretis in Vogosca, which I think is
3 different than the company that was on the first page. I must admit that
4 I had not seen this one on the list, and so I'd not paid particular
5 attention to this 65 ter number to be familiar with the remaining five
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. WEBER: These documents are not necessarily -- they're each
9 independent but being offered for the same purpose. And the
10 Prosecution --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Which is that there was communication between the
12 higher level army authorities with the production -- the companies
13 producing, in this case, ammunition. Is it all about ammunition or is it
14 about the others, Mr. Weber? Because here you specifically have drawn
15 our attention to the mortar shells produced by Pretis Vogosca.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the --
17 JUDGE ORIE: And, well, I must say - one second, please.
18 Yes, I think it's all Pretis Vogosca.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, actually the first page indicates the
20 mortar shells are from Krusik Valjevo in item 3, and I believe that's
21 also then referring to 120-millimetre LTF shells from Krusik again in the
22 later document. Then I believe in the last document there's reference to
23 different types of shells and FAB 100s and 250s, so it's -- for what
24 you're saying, but it shows different examples of the types of munitions
25 being provided.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Munitions provided by the various producers and the
2 communication with the higher level of the VRS --
3 MR. WEBER: That's correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- command.
5 Mr. ...
6 MR. IVETIC: Just trying to take a glance at each of the
7 documents, Your Honour. If you could just bear with me. One more
8 document, I believe, is in the bunch.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if you allow me, the one in front of
10 us talks about guns. So it's ammunition and guns or other equipment.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the specific portion Mr. Weber addressed
12 was about ammunition.
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Sorry.
14 MR. IVETIC: If we're introducing for the purposes of ammunition,
15 then I guess I don't have an objection to the remainder coming in
16 although I'd --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let's --
18 MR. IVETIC: They're a group -- they're a group 65 ter numbers,
19 so I guess there should be one number, I guess.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's be very practical.
21 We'll decide on admission.
22 And, Mr. Ivetic, if there's any matter which comes to your mind,
23 well, let's say within the next two hours, having looked at it a bit more
24 in detail, then you can revisit -- revisit the matter, and it will not be
25 held against you, that you did not oppose admission.
1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 8869 receives P3073, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P3073 is admitted.
5 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14607.
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, this is a Main Staff sector for the rear technical
7 department document dated 11 July 1995 from Miroslav Crvecic [phoen].
8 What does this document relate to?
9 A. Well, the document addressed to the Pretis factory instructs the
10 latter to issue materiel. Based on what I see, this materiel consists
11 mainly of ammunition, mortar ammunition, as well as tank ammunition to
12 the SRK. And it's then further specified that this is needed for
13 operations in the south-western part of the Sarajevo theatre of
15 Q. And continuing on, does it indicate any other areas of
17 A. Not on what I can see on the screen. I'm sorry, it's also
18 mentions the north-western part.
19 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders
20 this document.
21 MR. IVETIC: No objection to this one.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 I am a bit puzzled by the ... whether that's -- it seems to be
24 envelope information, the Sarajevo automobile factory, what that has to
25 do. It seems ... could we have a better look at the original.
1 THE WITNESS: It shouldn't -- Your Honours, if you allow me, it
2 shouldn't be part of the original because the original is a telex which
3 starts at the left top corner the heading, i.e., the originator. The
4 reference to TAS -- I mean, it cannot be part of the original document
5 unless it is recycled paper. But in my view, it's not part of the
6 message that is sent by the Main Staff to Pretis.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But it is part of the original as presented to us.
8 So, therefore, I see it looks as if it is a -- either a letterhead or an
9 envelope top down, where apparently something is addressed to the
10 Main Staff of the VRS. Pretis is mentioned.
11 Mr. Weber, any -- any explanation for --
12 MR. WEBER: Offhand, I don't have an explanation. I could either
13 look into it and report back to the Chamber or -- we don't intend to rely
14 on that information. If you'd like me to see if -- we could redact that
15 top part --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it raises some concerns about how you put
17 your documents together. That's -- we do understand that it is not what
18 you seek the Chamber to rely upon. At the same time, it raises some
19 concerns about the precision with which these documents are prepared.
20 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: P3074, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if it's okay with you, and I'm going to
25 try to ...
1 Your Honour, if it's okay if I further discuss with Mr. Ivetic,
2 there's some other logistics-related documents to see if we
3 can [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber -- the Chamber never opposes any
5 discussions you have with Mr. Ivetic which would be in the interest of
6 the proceedings.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Mr. Theunens, I now want to return for a moment to an exchange, a
9 conversation you had with Judge Orie yesterday in relation to the
10 recorded conversation of General Mladic in which he stated that those
11 older than 10 and younger than 75 ... in Sibenik would come to harm.
12 Judge Orie said to you:
13 "Yes. But if -- are these instructions already? You say he is
14 not going to consider. What makes you believe that he is not going to
16 In your response, you highlighted the important difference
17 between two people having a conversation and a military commander having
18 a conversation with his subordinate.
19 My question to you is: In a situation where a military commander
20 issues an order and subsequently reconsiders the decision and decides he
21 does not want the original order implemented, what, if anything, is he
22 obliged to do with respect to the original order?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: I think I'll have to object because it improperly
25 categorises the material that was before the Chamber and that was being
1 discussed as being an order. I believe my recollection of Your Honours'
2 question to the witness was that this was in reference to something that
3 if something happened, then, and that -- that no order had been issued
4 yet as to the contingency having transpired. So to categorise this as an
5 original order, I think misstates the evidence.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, what I remember, it was a conversation
7 where it was said: If this and this happens, then we would -- of that
8 kind. And otherwise we get the text before us and first explore whether
9 this is considered to be an order or a conditional order, as you put it
11 Perhaps we should have the text --
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, it's fine. Without expressing a view on
13 whether or not General Mladic said is probably considered an order or
14 not, I can ask my question in -- in theoretical terms in a situation in
15 which a commander issues an order. That's fine.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As long as it is clear that if it would not
17 apply to the situation you refer to, then, of course, it may hang
18 somewhere in the air without any link to -- because you introduced the
19 matter clearly in the context of the questions I put to the witness
20 yesterday, which was a very specific context. And now to say: I'll do
21 it in a very general way, then, of course, the relevance for what we
22 looked at yesterday may be lost.
23 I leave it in your hands, Mr. Weber, whether you would either go
24 back to the text we saw yesterday or that you put questions of a very
25 general nature to the witness. But then you should ask yourself to what
1 extent that would assist the Chamber.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Mr. Theunens, just going back to my question, in a situation
4 where a commander issues an order and subsequently reconsiders the
5 decision and decides he does not want the original order implemented,
6 what, if anything, is he obliged to do with respect to the original
8 A. Well, he has to make clear that it's not valid anymore. And that
9 it's replaced by another order.
10 MR. WEBER: If I could just, please, have one moment.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 17293A --
13 or, excuse me.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Mr. Theunens, on the screen before you, can you tell us, do you
17 recognise the document?
18 A. I do, Your Honours. It's a 1983 textbook or regulation of the
19 JNA for command and control, which I have quoted extensively in my
20 report. Part 1.
21 MR. WEBER: Can we please go to page 23 in both versions.
22 I'm not sure if we need it enlarged. If we could have the bottom
24 Q. Could you please summarise for us what this particular section
25 deals with.
1 A. It deals with -- I mean, as the text says, it is obviously
2 predicting as part of the command process. That is, obviously in order
3 to plan operations, as a part of command and control, you do not only
4 have to be familiar with the current situation of your own units, enemy
5 units, any factor that can influence your operations, but you also have
6 to be able to make -- yeah, predictions, i.e., to be able to foresee how
7 these factors can develop.
8 For your own forces, you may be able to foresee how ammunition
9 consumption will develop based on the nature of the operations they will
10 conduct. Obviously you will have a weather forecast, if the weather may
11 have implications for your operations. And as for the enemy, you have
12 the intelligence organ who, on the basis of their understanding of -- of
13 enemy doctrine and the nature of the terrain and so on, try to make
14 predictions as to how the enemy is going to act in the -- in -- in the
15 time that is of relevance for the conduct of your own operations,
16 including how the enemy will respond to your operations. And all these
17 factors together will be used then in order to prepare plans aimed at
18 implementing the task.
19 MR. WEBER: Can we now move to e-court page 24 in both versions,
20 next page.
21 Q. Can I draw your attention to the paragraph immediately above the
22 section entitled: "Decision-making."
23 This paragraph relates to the importance of commanders
24 considering the possibility of different scenarios as well as different
25 solutions to those scenarios. Can you ...
1 MR. WEBER: If we could scroll up on the screen, in the English.
2 Q. Can you read this paragraph to your yourself, and when you're
3 done, could you please explain this concept to us in just lay -- lay
5 A. Summarising this, Your Honours, it means that while surprise
6 in -- sorry. While surprising the enemy is a requirement for successful
7 operations, the commander himself does not like to be surprised in
8 relation to potential future developments. So when predicting the
9 various developments, each staff section in their own area, they will
10 have to do scenario-building and at least include the best -- the
11 worse-case scenario because then at least even if the situation develops
12 in a way that was not exactly predicted, the impact of surprise should be
13 reduced because the unit -- I mean, the command and the forces have
14 prepared for the worse-case scenario.
15 Q. Does a commander have an obligation to supplement or change his
16 orders in response to an evolving situation?
17 A. Well, it all depends of the task that has been set. If the
18 evolution of the situation does not have any impact on the way how the
19 unit can accomplish the task, then there is no need to amend the order.
20 If, however, the changes do impact on the ability of the unit to
21 achieve the task, then, of course, the orders have to be amended, in
22 order to limit or eliminate the impact of the changes on the desired end
24 Q. Can a commander give an order that becomes effective upon the
25 occurrence of a future event -- upon the occurrence of a future event,
1 such as if the enemy forces launch an attack on a village, artillery fire
2 should commence on an enemy command centre, for example?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, could I ask you. You said would you ask
4 questions about a very general theoretical level. It's -- in my ears I
5 hear resounding the situation we discussed yesterday. Is that your
7 MR. WEBER: I'm going come back to it. If you would like me to
8 do now, I can.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm asking you whether that is that the purpose
10 of this line of questioning.
11 MR. WEBER: I'm going back to that, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So this is all relevant. It's not that
13 theoretical. Then I'd like to ask a few questions about what happened
15 Yesterday we looked at this telephone conversation between
16 Mr. Mladic and Lieutenant-Colonel Milisav.
17 Could you tell us exactly who Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav was?
18 THE WITNESS: I am not familiar with the assignment this
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Milisav at that stage. You know, if I would be given
20 the opportunity to again review the documents and to do a search --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first have a look at the document itself,
22 which is P1959, I think. Could we have a look at it. Page 3.
23 What is it that makes it takes so much time?
24 There we are for the B/C/S. English page 3.
25 Yes, there we are. I think we still would need to move in the
1 B/C/S perhaps also to page 3. I'm not quite sure about that.
2 Mr. Theunens, on the top of that page is said that Ratko Mladic
4 "In Zadar, they are blocked. They're asking for negotiations ...
5 we will stop firing, to see if they will permit a normal evacuation ..."
6 And then Milosav answers:
7 "Would you also have us as part of that?"
8 And then Mr. Mladic says:
9 "As we are looking at you also as part of that, to get you out as
11 Is it your understanding that Mr. -- Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav
12 is belonging to units that would need to be safely evacuated from the
13 Zadar region? Is that your understanding of what's written here?
14 THE WITNESS: That is my understanding, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, those units that are seeking to be
16 evacuated safely, in your view, would that be the same units as that
17 would embark on the destruction of Zadar if negotiations would be
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, if you allow me I will give a
20 two-fold answer.
21 First, from a methodological point of view, I rarely draw
22 conclusions on one single document because that is --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you to draw any conclusions. I'm
24 just asking how you understand this document.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And if you can put them in the context of other
2 documents, you, of course, have an opportunity to do so. But my question
3 was whether, reading this text, you think that those troops to be
4 evacuated safely, whether those are the ones you would expect that would
5 be tasked with the destruction of Zadar.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honours, if this Lieutenant-Colonel
7 Milosav is in Zadar and if he is in the JNA artillery centre in Zadar,
8 where, for example, there were Orkan multiple-barrel rocket-launchers,
9 and I think it was the only installation in the JNA where these weapons
10 were available, then, of course, he would be in a position to use these
11 weapons against targets identified by General Mladic. This is just on
12 the face value, knowing what Zadar was and what was there.
13 So the answer would you yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If.
15 THE WITNESS: If, yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. If, then yes.
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, looking at the language, "if they do not agree,
19 then we will impact on the distribution of Zadar," purely from the point
20 of view of the text, do you consider this to be an instruction given to
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav, or action to be taken by whatever unit under
22 the command and control of Mr. Mladic?
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I mean, it's very difficult to --
24 it's clearly not an order as we have seen before. But at least it -- it
25 reflects Mladic's state of mind as well as it could be interpreted as the
1 commanders intent; i.e., what is the general view of Mladic in relation
2 to the situation in Zadar? How he will translate that general view of
3 his general objective in orders to his -- his subordinates is another
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but - if I may interrupt you at this moment -
6 many of the previous questions put to you by Mr. Weber were about what
7 would you need if you do not further persist on an order?
8 Now, if you say to a lieutenant-colonel, who is not necessarily
9 the -- commanding the units that would have to destroy Zadar, if you just
10 say, We will, and if you had in mind that another unit would be tasked
11 with that, if it ever comes to it, because only if the negotiations were
12 not successful, wouldn't it be totally unclear now who would have been
13 aware of what to do? And, in this respect, if you are informed about the
14 intention a potential -- an intention in case something would happen,
15 would you then have to inform that person that either the negotiations
16 were not successful and that, therefore, the intention had been withdrawn
17 or just that you changed your mind?
18 I'm rather confused about the questions that were put to you in
19 this same context --
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- which seems not to directly apply to the present
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm asking a question to Mr. Theunens.
25 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I mean, an order has to be clear and
1 has to say when the action has to be conducted, I mean, in clear terms.
2 Obviously an "if" is not enough --
3 JUDGE ORIE: And also should it not include who is addressed by
4 the order.
5 THE WITNESS: Exactly. But I do believe that what General Mladic
6 says is important because, again, as I mentioned earlier or in the days
7 before in your answer, this is not a conversation between two people
8 we're talking about --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Theunens, I'm not asking questions whether you
10 consider it important. I'm not in any way -- in my questions have put
11 the importance of the matter on the table.
12 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you some additional questions which
14 were triggered by the questions that were put to you as questions of a
15 general kind by Mr. Weber.
16 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm. Yes, Your Honours. It is not an order to
17 Milosav to start shelling Zadar but it -- I'm repeating myself. It shows
18 General Mladic sees -- as the commander how he sees the situation there.
19 And you know we could turn it around. Mladic doesn't have to mention
20 that. Mladic doesn't have to say, We will bomb Zadar if they don't do
21 that. He is a military commander. He is having, I think, a conversation
22 about the situation with -- with a subordinate commander or with a
23 subordinate officer - we don't know what position this Lieutenant-Colonel
24 Milosav has - but at least it shows to the subordinate officer the
25 mindset and the commander's intent of General Mladic in relation to
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear to me.
3 Mr. Weber, you wanted to --
4 MR. WEBER: I just wanted --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- address something.
6 MR. WEBER: So it doesn't get too confusing, this wasn't the
7 section of the conversation I was referring to in my questions. It was
8 the last page so -- just so that's clear on the record. But can I go on.
9 Q. Now, returning to this section --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we take a break first --
11 MR. WEBER: Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- because we are at that point.
13 Yes, then I was the more confused, if it did not even relate in
14 any way to this part, because looking forward, the ifs, and telling that
15 an order was not valid anymore -- well, I hope -- I apologise for not
16 fully understanding it.
17 Mr. Groome.
18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can just say something so that the
19 Chamber can think about over the break and maybe avoid this confusion.
20 The Prosecution isn't dealing with any of this evidence to
21 establish that General Mladic gave an order, legal or otherwise,
22 regarding Zadar. We're introducing this evidence because of what it
23 speaks to with respect to his mens rea and his general disposition
24 towards civilians in the conduct of war. That's simply it, Your Honour.
25 And if Mr. Weber is indulged with a few more questions, all of this will
1 become very clear after the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if is about the mindset, then of course it
3 is a matter totally different. But the questions were mainly about
4 looking forward and in -- the questions were not primarily about the
5 mindset. I at least understood them not to be.
6 We take a break. We first ask Mr. Theunens to be escorted out of
7 the courtroom.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber. You exclusively wanted to address
10 the matter of the 301 and the 306, and the -- the Sibenik people coming
11 to harm. Is that the portion you wanted? Yes. And no one getting out
12 of Dalmatia except children under the age of 10. Yes.
13 Okay. It's all about mindset.
14 We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to come into the
18 courtroom, Mr. Weber, it certainly would have assisted, if, when
19 referring to yesterday's conversation, if you would have given a clear
20 reference as -- in terms of the source of that, which might have -- which
21 might have avoided further confusion. Perhaps I should have asked for
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 MR. WEBER: I'm going to call up -- I'm returning to
25 65 ter 17293A. If I could please have page 31 in e-court in the English.
1 And I'm afraid I do not have the B/C/S. I'm not sure if it's part of the
2 uploaded excerpts. We will look into this; and, if it's not, we will
3 correspond the appropriate B/C/S section.
4 I would just note for the record that, at least of now, it can be
5 found in 65 ter 17293, page 38.
6 Q. Mr. Theunens, before looking at the section before you, I just
7 want to return to what General Mladic said to his subordinate,
8 Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav, that all people between the ages of 10 and 75
9 may come to harm.
10 Apart from whether or not General Mladic intended this as a
11 specific order, apart from whether or not he may have considered or
12 withdrawn what he said to Milosav, do you have an opinion regarding what
13 the impact of a commander talking about the possibility of committing war
14 crimes with a subordinate has on the functioning of a military
16 A. Well, I will give a -- a theoretical answer irrespective of the
17 individuals involved by referring to the 1988 regulations on the
18 implementations of the laws of war by the SFRY armed forces. That is,
19 that the subordinate cannot implement an order that would amount to
20 crimes. And so in this case, the subordinate should have made it clear
21 to his commander that if, indeed, he was to implement the task of -- of
22 not allowing anyone between -- or sorry, committing harm to the people
23 between 10 and 75, then he should have made his commander aware of the
24 fact that this would amount to a crime and that he would not be able to
25 implement that order.
1 However, in this context, I mean, considering the personality of
2 General Mladic and the -- I would call it charisma even -- even if I
3 haven't used that expression in my report. But the degree of not just
4 de jure but also de facto authority he has because of his personality and
5 his command style, and in the overall context as we are seeing at that
6 time in -- in -- in Croatia and later on Bosnia-Herzegovina, it may well
7 be that subordinates were less inclined to -- to confront General Mladic
8 with -- with that observation, i.e., that it would amount to a crime and
9 perhaps would have implemented the order.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I understood the question to be slightly -- to
11 be a different one.
12 What effect that would have on the subordinates rather than how
13 the subordinates would respond to that, and if I look at the -- that
14 such -- that -- I think if I would not be a specialist, I would think
15 that it would give a very bad example. That has got nothing to do with
16 expertise on matters. If you behave in a way which -- or if you talk
17 about things in a way which are not consistent with the regulations, the
18 valid regulations, then that might be understood by others that there's
19 no need to do that and gives a bad example. That is, I think, a layman
20 would easily say. Now, you as an expert, would you agree with that or
21 would an expert think about it in a different way.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I mean, obviously we would agree with
23 that. But I mean, you also have to look at the whole context. I'm not
24 sure whether I included it in this report, but there is an ultimatum by
25 General Kadijevic, I believe, of the 1st October 1991, that -- where he
1 clearly states that for each JNA facility that is being damaged or
2 harmed, or JNA personnel being damaged or harmed, we're thinking here of
3 the context of the blockade that was mounted by -- blockades that were
4 mounted by the Croats, that he -- the JNA will retaliate against Croatian
5 towns. There is such a -- a -- an ultimatum by General Kadijevic. So, I
6 mean, in theory, obviously one doesn't have to be an expert to agree that
7 it gives a very bad example in it. But the practical context is such
8 that even the most senior levels were considering this option of
9 retaliating against civilian targets to respond to the Croatian blockade
10 of JNA barracks.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please proceed.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Can I now draw your attention to the screen before you and, in
14 particular, the second paragraph on the top of the page which states:
15 "The function of a senior officer requires certain traits that
16 are connected with that function. It is very important that in everyday
17 work an officer acts in conformity with socialist social norms and norms
18 of military conduct, and as an officer in command, he has to adapt his
19 method of work to a military environment."
20 Is this passage a reminder of the importance of avoiding the type
21 of thing you've just described?
22 A. Yes, of course, it is. And it can be summarised as leadership by
24 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, the Prosecution is going to tender
25 this -- selected excerpts from this once we verify the presence of the
2 MR. IVETIC: That's fine, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many pages is it that you --
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if it's okay with you, I will -- we've
5 reviewed it for the ones that we feel are necessary, it is a greatly
6 reduced amount of a very large document but it still might be a certain
7 amount -- 42 pages.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber -- 42 pages. That's an answer to my
10 We'll marked for identification pending verification of the B/C/S
11 translation. And we may also further consider relevance and -- and if
12 you would -- you said you have done that, the Chamber wouldn't mind if
13 you would do it again so to be perfectly sure and to see whether that
14 changes anything. I have no opinion about it at this moment.
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honours --
16 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
17 Mr. Registrar, the number under which it would be MFI'd, would
19 THE REGISTRAR: P3075, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
21 Mr. Theunens.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I would just like to
23 clarify my previous answer concerning the Kadijevic ultimatum. This is
24 footnote 411 in Part 1 of the report. It's put there on page 125. And I
25 think shows there the mindset.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Of Mr. Kadijevic.
2 THE WITNESS: And -- and senior leadership in the JNA.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Weber.
7 Before we continue, the Chamber has considered whether it --
8 first of all, Mr. Theunens, you are scheduled for next week. Would you
9 be available next week?
10 THE WITNESS: Of course, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would it cause you any problems, for example, to
12 leave on -- to be excused on Friday rather than on Thursday because we
13 are usually not sitting on Wednesday? Would that cause you any problems?
14 THE WITNESS: It would not, Your Honours. But it would be
15 appreciated if the ICTY can contact my employer now because they expect
16 me back on Thursday.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meaning still be in court Thursday morning and
18 leaving on Thursday afternoon. Is that?
19 THE WITNESS: But given the flight schedule, I would leave on
20 Friday then and be back in Lebanon on Friday.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Friday would be at what time approximately
22 that you're -- the flight schedule?
23 THE WITNESS: Oh, it's -- from Brussels it's at 11 in the
25 JUDGE ORIE: 11.00 in the morning, yes, that's clear. The reason
1 why I'm raising it -- but there's nothing apart from that you'd like your
2 employer to be informed about it.
3 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's not that things would go wrong, where you --
5 perhaps things may always go wrong if you're wrong if you're not there
6 but --
7 THE WITNESS: No --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- if there's not a specific urgency in your return,
9 apart from that you'd like to be back as soon as possible.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours. And it is nice to know in
11 advance because I have some practical issues just to deal with.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's understood. Because as I said before,
13 the Judges have -- well, used their Wednesday for appointments assuming
14 that we would not be sitting.
15 Now, Mr. Ivetic, you have -- the witness was scheduled for
16 eight hours of cross-examination.
17 MR. IVETIC: I believe it was seven, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Seven. Which would mean that that's a fair chance
19 even if we would not sit on Wednesday that we'd -- nevertheless, we would
20 be able to conclude by Thursday at the end of the morning session.
21 The Chamber would very much like the parties to see whether we
22 could achieve that. That is, to conclude the cross-examination but also
23 re-examination by Thursday. A day having three and a half effective
24 hours of examination usually would mean cross-examination to be concluded
25 preferably at the end of Tuesday's session.
1 On the basis of what we now discussed, the Chamber sees no reason
2 yet, at this moment, to change next week's schedule, that is, to sit on
3 Wednesday instead of Friday.
4 Mr. Theunens, the expectation is there's a fair chance that you
5 would be excused on Thursday anyhow. If anything changes, then we would
6 inform you as soon as possible.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready, you may start your
10 Mr. Theunens, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic. Mr. Ivetic
11 is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.
12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic
14 Q. Good day, sir.
15 A. Hello, Mr. Ivetic.
16 Q. I'd like to take up approximately where you left off in the
17 direct examination with the incidents at the Zadar barracks, the JNA
18 troops that were barricaded therein, and the conversation between
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav and General Mladic as we have discussed.
20 First of all, did your review of material lead you to determine
21 how long the JNA forces at the barracks in question had been surrounded
22 and blockaded by enemy Croat forces?
23 A. Your Honours, for the purpose of this report, I did not analyse
24 the activities of the Croatian forces, including the duration of -- of --
25 of -- of blockade of JNA barracks and installations in Croatia. So I'm
1 not able to answer the question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just intervene for a second.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, I appreciate that you're typing urgent matters,
4 but you could do it at another table so that we do not also hear you
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours will note that I tried to use the
7 technology available to limit the distance between myself and the
8 microphone but unfortunately it's still --
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a matter of distance. I take it that it's
10 a matter of resonance rather than -- so, therefore, changing microphones
11 would not likely result in any positive way. Either you change from desk
12 or refrain from typing. That's the solution, I think.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Theunens, did you have occasion in the review of the material
16 in relation to the situation surrounding the Zadar barracks to confirm
17 that the forces located therein, the JNA forces therein, had already
18 suffered casualties in the way of deaths of their members as a result of
19 the activities of the surrounding enemy Croatian troops or forces?
20 A. Your Honours, I believe I've answered the questions -- the
21 question. I have not analysed the situation of the JNA barracks in
22 Croatia and -- and I mean, the blockade by Croatian forces. I have
23 general knowledge of that, and I understand that there were casualties,
24 but I have no specific information as to -- for the situation in Zadar.
25 Q. Do you have information whether the blockade was complete or
1 partial, were they completely surrounded by enemy forces, were they
2 partially surrounded by enemy forces?
3 A. Again, Your Honours, I don't have specific information for Zadar.
4 What I know about Zadar I have mentioned during the questions by
5 Your Honours and the Prosecution. That is that I know there was a
6 blockade and I know that there was the -- that the JNA had the artillery
7 training centre in -- in Zadar, which, if I'm not mistaken, was under the
8 command of then Colonel Perisic and there were modern artillery weapons
10 Q. Now, do you know whether that particular barracks was one of the
11 ones which had utilities, water and food supplies, cut off from the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- before we continue, is there any issue
14 between the parties that, if you're surrounded by enemy troops, that
15 you'd fight your way out, if need be? Or is the issue about the language
16 used about: We'll embark on the destruction of Zadar. I mean, fighting
17 your way out is something -- well, at least linguistically different from
18 destruction of Zadar. I gained the impression that it was that language,
19 if we're talking about mindset, rather than whether if you failed to
20 positively negotiate, that you would do whatever you think would be
21 militarily necessary. So therefore I'm wondering whether we are -- on
22 what track we are.
23 MR. IVETIC: I think we're on the same track, Your Honour. I'm
24 about to talk about the language that was used and what can be drawn from
25 that with these foundational questions of the expert to set up what would
1 be a hypothetical question.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then I think that could have been done
3 more quickly, but I leave it to you, Mr. Ivetic.
4 MR. IVETIC:
5 Q. Mr. Theunens, if I may ask you to exercise your military
6 knowledge, your military experience, and the expertise that you claim to
7 have on military matters to ask you to comment upon a situation. If we
8 are to assume that a friendly military force is surrounded, if we are to
9 assume a friendly military force is cut off from supplies of food, water,
10 and utilities, and, indeed, suffering casualties, would it be a situation
11 where you would consider that a friendly military commander might attempt
12 to try to boost the morale of those so blockaded, and, indeed, promise
13 things that he has no intention of undertaking so as to keep the soldiers
14 so blockaded from giving up or despairing that they are not -- that they
15 are alone in the fight?
16 Is that something that you would expect?
17 A. I think I first need to correct you. I have not made any claims
18 about any expertise I might have, yes or no. I mean, you know by now
19 that this is a matter that is in the hands of Trial Chamber. And
20 concerning the boosting of morale and so on, you know, making abstraction
21 from the military, if you make promises to somebody who is in a difficult
22 situation and you don't fulfil them, I would say from a psychological
23 point of view, without being a psychologist, it makes it even worse for
24 you. From a military point of view, there would have been other ways to
25 boost morale instead of saying that, you know, we're going to destroy the
1 city because how the are the people going to be feel better by having
2 more destruction around them. He could have considered, well, you know,
3 we're negotiating with the Croats, we'll allow food in or they will allow
4 food in. We can fly in food. I mean drop it from helicopters or
5 whatever. I think there would have been more constructive ways to boost
6 morale in this context than to make a promise or -- not a promise, but to
7 threaten to destroy a city.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, to the extent you intended to draw the
9 Chamber's attention through the witness that there may be other
10 explanations as for the language used, you have done so.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Then I'll move on.
12 Q. If I may focus on another part of your answer, sir, and ask you,
13 do you consider yourself to be a military expert?
14 A. Your Honours, I will repeat myself. It's in the -- it's the
15 Trial Chamber who decides whether I or colleagues who appear in the same
16 position are considered experts or not and whether their reports are
17 accepted, yes or no.
18 Q. Okay. If we can return to another matter that you dealt with
19 today, we had a set of documents dealing with the Krusik Valjevo factory
20 and the Pretis Vogosca factory --
21 MR. IVETIC: And by the way, Your Honours, I have reviewed those
22 documents and I do not have an additional objection, so we may proceed to
23 enter them into evidence. That was 65 ter number 8869 according to my
24 notes and it therefore -- I've lost the --
25 JUDGE ORIE: They were admitted into evidence but you had an
1 opportunity to revisit them [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 MR. IVETIC: Yeah. Perfect.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And it's now on the record that you do not intend to
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record this is P3073.
7 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Judge Fluegge.
8 Q. Now, in relation to that Pretis factory, which according to the
9 documentation was to be receiving and indeed did receive some parts that
10 had been intended for the Krusik factory, did your review of materials
11 indicate that the Pretis factory, that the confrontation line ran through
12 the middle of the Pretis factory in Vogosca such that the Armija BiH had
13 control over one part of the factory, whereas the VRS had control over
14 another part of the factory?
15 A. Your Honours, I'm not able to confirm that, but I don't think
16 that that had any impact on the -- on -- the point I tried to -- to
17 demonstrate in my report, i.e., that there is collaboration or
18 cooperation between arms and ammunition factories under Bosnian Serb
19 control and such facilities in FRY and that this collaboration occurs on
20 the instructions and/or with the agreement of the Main Staffs of the
21 respective armies, i.e., the VRS and the VJ.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. IVETIC: There we are.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We're doing two things. First to see whether
25 e-court is functioning or not functioning again, but the other eye was
1 looking at the clock, Mr. Ivetic.
2 MR. IVETIC: You have a better vantage point than I do from here
3 so --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
5 MR. IVETIC: -- I'm at your disposal, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think that we should adjourn for the day.
7 Mr. Theunens, we'd like to see you back on Monday morning, at
8 9.30 in the morning. At this moment, I wouldn't know whether it's in
9 this same courtroom. Let me just check. It is in this same courtroom,
10 II. And I give you the same instructions as I did before, that you
11 should not speak with anyone about your testimony or communicate in any
12 other way about it.
13 You may follow the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume, Monday,
17 the 9th of December, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
20 December, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.