Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20367

 1                           Friday, 6 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused not present]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             I put on the record that Mr. Mladic is not attending today.

11     Yesterday he explicitly waived his right to be present, and counsel,

12     Mr. Lukic, is in court.

13             The second issue I'd like to put on the record is that

14     Judge Moloto is, for urgent reasons, unable to sit today.  This will be

15     of limited duration.  It's only for today, not any longer, and

16     Judge Fluegge and myself have decided that it's in the interests of

17     justice to continue to hear the case under Rule 15 bis.

18             Then the Prosecution announced that it would wish to raise a

19     preliminary matter.

20             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             Good morning.  And a very brief matter.

22             As the Chamber is aware, Mr. Theunens is stationed in Lebanon at

23     the moment and involved in a security-related position.  There have been

24     evolving events in Lebanon this week.  The Prosecution is requesting that

25     the Chamber instruct VWU just to request or -- inquire from Mr. Theunens

Page 20368

 1     whether there's any problem and how long is he able to stay and whether

 2     there's any -- because we are unaware of his present position.

 3             And secondly, Your Honour, next week we're not scheduled to sit

 4     Wednesday.  If the Chamber would also consider if -- whatever the

 5     situation, if there is one with Mr. Theunens, if sitting Wednesday

 6     instead of Friday would facilitate his return, if that's necessary, that

 7     the Chamber would consider that.  The Defence -- I discussed it with the

 8     Defence and they have no objection for that change in schedule.

 9             And we would appreciate the Chamber's consideration.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We will certainly consider it.  At the same time,

11     the parties should be aware that since we're sitting four days a week,

12     the Judges started filling their agendas on Wednesday quite heavily, and

13     we'll have to see whether that still can be changed.  But we'll consider

14     it.  Much may also depend on any commitment of the Defence on finishing

15     cross-examination within the time estimates.

16             Then could Mr. Theunens be escorted into the courtroom.

17             Meanwhile, Mr. Weber, I make the following observation.  The

18     Chamber urged you very much to seek to introduce documentary evidence

19     through the witness because the Chamber was concerned about the 434

20     documents still to be bar tabled.  The Chamber counted the new documents,

21     documents not yet in evidence which were introduced through Mr. Theunens,

22     and I think we are at a total of five, which is a relatively low number.

23     I leave it to that.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25                           [The witness takes the stand]


Page 20369

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a difference in counting.  Other counts say

 2     it's ten, Mr. Weber.  But whether it's five or whether it's ten,

 3     apparently you ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When I said "five," I meant to say five that

 6     were on the bar table motion, which now moved to viva voce introduction.

 7     That number is relatively low, and the Chamber just hopes that you're not

 8     relying on that when you don't move them in through the witness, that

 9     they'll automatically be admitted from the bar table.

10             Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

11             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Apologies for continuing with other matters when you

13     entered the courtroom.  Perhaps needless to say, but you're still bound

14     by the solemn declaration you gave and Mr. Weber will now continue his

15     examination-in-chief.

16             MR. WEBER:  May I proceed, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

18                           WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

19                           Examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

21        A.   Good morning, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P474, page

23     3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   Mr. Theunens, we left off discussing the 6th of June.  Coming up

25     before you will be operational directive number one issued by

Page 20370

 1     General Mladic on 6 June 1992.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have page 3 of the English and page 2

 3     of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   Mr. Theunens, on this page, it indicates there are two stages

 5     planned for VRS operations pursuant to Directive 1.  Could you please

 6     assist us with letting us know what part of the overall strategy as

 7     defined by the six strategic objectives are being implemented by

 8     General Mladic in this part of the directive?

 9        A.   Your Honours, as the first stage describes, it talks about

10     operations in the -- around Sarajevo airport, as well as deblocking

11     communications on the Sarajevo-Trnovo road, Trnovo being controlled by

12     the Bosnian Serb.  So this can be seen in the context of strategic goal

13     number five, maintaining the division of Sarajevo.  And secondly, mention

14     is also made of the grouping of forces to open the corridor between

15     Semberija and Bosnian Krajina which corresponds with strategic goal

16     number 2.

17             Of course, I mean, when you look at these directives and

18     subsequent orders and the manner in which these orders are implemented --

19     I mean, the directives and orders are implemented, they also result in

20     the implementation of strategic goal number 1; i.e., the separation of

21     the people.

22        Q.   Yesterday at the end of the day we looked at an entry General

23     Mladic's notes on the same day of this directive.  Does directive 1

24     reflect the areas and objectives discussed during General Mladic's

25     meeting with the other Bosnian Serb leaders?

Page 20371

 1        A.   It does, Your Honour, and I refer to my comment about the wider

 2     vicinity of Sarajevo airport.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page of

 4     both versions.

 5        Q.   On this page of directive 1, we see the tasks for the

 6     East Bosnia Corps or IBK, the SRK, and the Herzegovina Corps.  First

 7     focusing on the IBK, General Mladic instructs this corps to secure the

 8     Zvornik-Milici-Vlasenica road and mop up or cleanse Birac of the

 9     remaining enemy forces.  With respect to this reference to Birac, is this

10     the same area near Zvornik where we saw the 28 May 1992 order from the

11     Birac Brigade to the Zvornik TO yesterday, the order that said move out

12     the women and children and place them into camps?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  It's the same location.

14        Q.   In the next paragraph are the tasks for the SRK.  General Mladic

15     orders the SRK to regroup in such a way to mop up or cleanse parts of

16     Sarajevo with a majority Serb population.  He then goes on to specify a

17     number of particular areas.  Have you reviewed orders carrying out these

18     operations as part of your analysis?

19        A.   I -- I did, Your Honour, and -- and, you know, maintaining not

20     only Serb control over parts of Sarajevo that had a Serbian majority or a

21     significant Serb presence as well as ensuring the implementation of

22     strategic goal number 5, the division of Sarajevo is an operation -- is a

23     goal that is pursued throughout the 1992 to 1995 conflict.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P458.

25        Q.   This is a set of instructions dated 7 June 1992, a day after the

Page 20372

 1     directive.  They're from SRK corps commander Tomislav Sipcic to

 2     subordinate commands of the SRK.  Do these instructions show that

 3     Directive 1 was immediately implemented by the SRK Command?

 4        A.   I mean, we should we would have to go to the page that shows the

 5     decision of the commander of the SRK and the orders he gives to his

 6     subordinate brigade commanders.  But I mean, I remember this document,

 7     and the answer is affirmative to your question.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11468.  For

 9     the record, a copy of this document is referenced in Mr. Theunens's

10     report under 65 ter 16989.  The Prosecution is using this copy since it

11     has been referenced previously during these proceedings.

12        Q.   This is a report from SRK corps Commander Sipcic to the

13     Main Staff dated 17 June 1992 concerning the status of combat operations.

14     Could you please tell us whether this report shows that the SRK carried

15     out Directive 1.

16        A.   Indeed, Your Honours, it shows that.  And just referring back to

17     what we discussed earlier, the two-down principle, here you can see that

18     the corps commander reports to the Main Staff about the activities of the

19     brigade; i.e., two down.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page of

21     the English version.

22        Q.   Mr. Theunens, directing your attention to paragraphs 6 and 7 of

23     this document, do you have any comments on these paragraphs?

24        A.   Your Honours, paragraph 6 discusses -- I mean, quote/unquote,

25     treatment of civilian population where a distinction is made between

Page 20373

 1     Serbs and non-Serbs in a sense that Croats are left together with the

 2     Serbs, but Muslims are being separated from them.

 3             And this, I mean this corresponds with the first strategic goal.

 4             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 11468

 5     into evidence.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the document.  We do believe that

 8     the witness has misrepresented it, but no objection to the document

 9     itself coming in.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives number P3059, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P3059 is admitted.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Mr. Theunens, probably for the remainder of this session I want

15     to go to a couple of other topics and then I will return to the

16     directives.

17             On page 242 of Part 2 of your report, you concluded that

18     General Mladic was:

19             "... in constant contact with his subordinate units, including by

20     being present at forward command posts near the zone of operations where

21     VRS units conduct significant combat operations."

22             Generally could you tell us how General Mladic's presence in the

23     field at these forward command posts facilitated his ability to exercise

24     command and control over VRS units.

25        A.   Your Honours, summarising the documents I have reviewed in that

Page 20374

 1     context, and these can be found in footnotes 924, 925 -- actually it

 2     should be 925, I'm sorry, of Part 2 of the report.  By being present as

 3     close as possible to the area where the fighting is conducted,

 4     communication lines are shortened, it's easier, for example, for

 5     General Mladic to be in direct contact, direct physical contact with

 6     subordinate commanders.  He may well be visible there by the soldiers

 7     which given the personality of General Mladic can be considered a

 8     motivating factor.  I base this conclusion again on reports of

 9     subordinate commanders after visits conducted by General Mladic to his

10     subordinated units.

11             So the shortened communication lines allow it is for

12     General Mladic to be better informed and also to interact more closely

13     with the subordinate commanders who -- of the units that are conducting

14     the combat activities.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 09859.

16        Q.   I'd like to go through a few documents with you related to

17     General Mladic's presence in the field.

18             This is a 1st Krajina Corps information report from General Talic

19     dated 17 July 1992.  How does this report demonstrate General Mladic's

20     presence in the field?

21        A.   Your Honours, the document shows that General Mladic, together

22     with, as it is identified in the document, the corps members of the 1 KK

23     command visits the forward defence lines of the 1st KK that are involved

24     in Operation Corridor; i.e., to establish the corridor between Semberija

25     or strategic goal number 2.  General Mladic congratulates soldiers, and,

Page 20375

 1     I mean, he's in direct interaction with them, and he also inspects

 2     actually or he observes himself the level of implementation of the corps

 3     that have been set, and this we can connect then to the directive we

 4     discussed this morning, Directive number 1.

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 9859.

 6     The Prosecution also notes just for the record that operational directive

 7     1 provides orders to OG Doboj and the same operational group is also

 8     mention in the directive number 3 which we'll discuss later today.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to the introduction of the document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  P3060, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P3060 is admitted.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 50.

14        Q.   This is a 21 January 1994 order from General Mladic to the SRK

15     Command.  What does the first paragraph above the word "order" indicate?

16        A.   Well, I -- I can see the bottom of the document in the B/C/S

17     version.  It shows that General Mladic has to the -- that part of the --

18     of the Sarajevo front.  It's not always easy to read the English, I must

19     say.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It should be enlarged in such a way that the witness

21     can read it.

22             THE WITNESS:  Because also in the previous document, I mean, I

23     can try to put my head on the monitor but I --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to provide you with legible texts.

25             Could we enlarge a little bit more the English.

Page 20376

 1             Is this sufficient, Mr. Theunens --

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- or would you still need it.

 4             THE WITNESS:  That's fine, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 5             Yes, I just wanted to see who signed it, but I could see that

 6     also on the B/C/S version, but it shows that General Mladic, going back

 7     again to the first paragraph of the order, that he has toured the

 8     Sarajevo front, I mean, or section of the Sarajevo front, and based on

 9     that issues additional orders to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Under item 6 that we see before us, General Mladic orders that he

12     is to be kept informed of the execution of these preparations.

13        A.   Mm-hm.

14        Q.   How does this relate to his order?

15        A.   As was discussed during the previous days, this is a regular

16     procedure for a commander to, yeah, confirm that the subordinate

17     commanders have to report on the degree of implementation or the status

18     of implementation of orders.  And just very briefly, when you look at the

19     order -- I mean, General Mladic, looking at paragraphs 3, 4, 5, he gives

20     orders which are actually, I would say, instructions of a very tactical

21     nature where you would almost expect a battalion commander to take care

22     of these kind of issues.  So to me, and I have also illustrated that in

23     the report with other examples, it highlights how closely General Mladic

24     is monitoring the way how his subordinate commanders implement his -- his

25     orders.  And again, yeah, gives very detailed instructions of almost a

Page 20377

 1     tactical nature which should be way below his level of responsibility as

 2     commander of the Main Staff.

 3             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 50 into evidence and

 4     further notes that this order is one day before Scheduled Incident G6.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I won't object to the document.  But

 7     are we now making submissions about the documents or are we just entering

 8     evidence?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Sometimes it is a short way, if you want to

10     deal with a document and where the one says date A and the other date A

11     plus 1, then it can be a short and efficient way, unless there's any

12     specific reason why you should doubt as to whether the dates are

13     accurate, yes or no.

14             Of course, you could ask the same question, is this -- but

15     Mr. Weber, there's no specific need to do that.  Dates are dates.

16             Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P3061, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  3 -- P3061 is admitted.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1028.

20        Q.   Coming up before you is the 2 March 1993 order from

21     General Mladic to conduct a tour of inspection of the Drina Corps units.

22             If we could focus on paragraph 1 which continues at --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can that be enlarged further, please.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   This paragraph continues onto the next page.

Page 20378

 1             When was this inspection to occur and for what purpose?

 2        A.   Your Honours, as the document states the inspection is to occur

 3     from 3 to 4 March 1993, and the purpose is to assess the combat readiness

 4     of four brigades of the Drina Corps, which, again, is -- is an

 5     application of the two-down principle.

 6             What is of interest is that the inspection team is to be - I

 7     think that's further visible in the document - is to be led by

 8     General Mladic.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could we please see the next page.

10             THE WITNESS:  Oh.  I mean, I stand corrected because I

11     see that -- I must be confused with another document, I'm sorry, because

12     paragraph 2 -- paragraph 2 highlights or explains who are the members.

13     So I'm sorry, I can find it in another document.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   With respect to this document, does it show that other members of

16     the VRS Main Staff were also carrying out the inspection function of

17     command and control?

18        A.   Yes and that is consistent with the role of the staff because the

19     staff is to assist the commander, so the commander cannot do everything

20     himself obviously, and he can delegate certain tasks.  And obviously for

21     such a task, it would make sense indeed to delegate it.

22        Q.   We'll come back later to the operations that were going on at

23     this time.

24             MR. WEBER:  At this time, though, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter

25     1028 into evidence.

Page 20379

 1             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives number P3062, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P3062 is admitted.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1018.

 6        Q.   This is a report from Radislav Krstic at the time of the

 7     2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade Command to the Command of the Drina Corps,

 8     six days later.  If we could please turn to page 2 of the English;

 9     specifically item 4.

10             We see that Krstic is reporting that:

11             "During the day, our brigade was visited by members of the

12     General Staff headed by General Ratko Mladic."

13             How does this visit relate to General Mladic's carrying out of an

14     inspection?

15        A.   Well, if you read the rest of the paragraph, Your Honours,

16     paragraph 4, it explicitly states that the members of the Main Staff

17     headed by General Mladic inspected our, i.e., the units of the

18     2nd Romanija Brigade, their positions, and also familiarised themselves

19     with the situation on the front line and the conditions in which combat

20     operations are conducted.

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1018 into evidence.

22             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As P3063, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 20380

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 69.

 2        Q.   This is a 13 June 1994 order from General Mladic.  As we can see,

 3     it was sent to all corps.

 4             If we could scroll down, and if you could please further describe

 5     to us what the purpose of this order is.

 6        A.   Your Honours, I discuss this document in footnote 1289 of the

 7     second part of my report, page 349.

 8             It concerns inspection visit -- or field inspection basically

 9     conducted between 16th of June to the 2nd of July 1994.  And the team is

10     being led by Lieutenant-Colonel General Mladic, and the purpose of the

11     visit -- I mean, I cannot see that on this part of the document.

12             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the next page of the English

13     version.

14             THE WITNESS:  Because I'm reading from my report now.

15             Yes, in -- under the section "I order," so paragraphs 1, you see

16     what the task of the inspection team are.  And it -- okay, they have to

17     look in the combat readiness situation of commands and units, the levels

18     of preparedness, the implementation of tasks contained in Directives in 1

19     to 6.  So it shows that subsequent direction -- directive is not

20     necessarily placed in all directives.  I mean the strategic goals, the

21     six strategic goals do not change during the conflict, so if the goal set

22     then or task set in a directive have not been fully accomplished, they

23     can be reiterated in a new directive.  Yeah.  And then there are, I would

24     say, less important aspects to verify the preparation for Vidovdan Day,

25     which corresponds with the 28th of June.

Page 20381

 1             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 69 into evidence.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives P3064, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P731.

 7        Q.   Coming up before you will be a 11 April 1994 order for further

 8     action from Visegrad TG commander Dragisa Masal.

 9             We can see that this was sent to the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and

10     5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and the Visegrad TG command post.  If

11     we could scroll down to the bottom of the English, we see under item 7

12     the document forwards a message from General Mladic who visited the area

13     on 10 April.  It indicates that General Mladic's message was:

14             "Keep pushing energetically onwards.  Pay no attention to what is

15     going on around us.  The Turks must disappear from these areas."

16             What does this message show?

17        A.   I mean, the message shows that General Mladic was in the area

18     around that time, so on the 10th of April, and he gives actually an oral

19     order, which the commander of the tactical group considers sufficiently

20     important to cite it in his order to his subordinate units, and the text

21     is visible.  I mean, there were no Turkish troops.  I understand that the

22     word "Turks" is used for the Muslims or Bosniaks, and it's often

23     considered a derogatory term for the Muslim nationality, which later

24     called themselves Bosniaks in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 430.

Page 20382

 1        Q.   This is a 1 March 1995 order from General Mladic.  Could you

 2     please tell us what this order relates to.

 3        A.   Your Honour, this order relates to the situation in the Trnovo

 4     sector.  And it -- I mean, when you look further on in the order, it

 5     refers to a meeting between the SRK, Herzegovina Corps Command, as well

 6     as representatives of the VRS Main Staff and the RS MUP in the context of

 7     conducting operations in the general sector of Trnovo because there's an

 8     important communication line for the Bosnian Serbs in that location.

 9        Q.   And under item 1, what does General Mladic order?

10        A.   He orders to create a so-called combat team consisting of -- of

11     military and police personnel, obviously in order to facilitate command

12     and control over VRS and RS MUP units conducting operations in that area.

13        Q.   And is that area the area of Trnovo and Treskavica?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

15        Q.   We see at the very beginning it says "at the SRK IKM," what does

16     this show about the presence of the SRK in this area of Trnovo and

17     Treskavica?

18        A.   Well, it shows that the SRK has established a forward command

19     post there to facilitate command and control over forces operating in

20     that area.

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 430 into evidence.

22             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives number P3065, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

Page 20383

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P1509.

 2             If we can please zoom in on the English version.

 3        Q.   This is a 12 July 1995 dispatch from Dragomir Vasic of the

 4     Zvornik CJB.  What does this document show that General Mladic was doing

 5     during his time in Bratunac?

 6        A.   Your Honours, the document in the second paragraph shows that

 7     General Mladic holds a meeting or attends a meeting at the

 8     Bratunac Brigade command at 8.00 in the morning on the 12th of July.

 9     This meeting is also attended by General Krstic.

10        Q.   Do you have any other comments on this document?

11        A.   I -- I discuss this document in my report, and I'm trying to

12     locate where it is in order to see if I have additional comments.  At

13     least it shows that General Mladic is in Bratunac on the 12th of July.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'll move on.  For reference, it's in

15     Part 2 footnote 1303.

16        Q.   It's okay, Mr. Theunens.

17        A.   I mean, the paragraph -- the last sentence of paragraph 5 is also

18     quite indicative about the -- "What is to do be done with the civilian

19     population?"

20        Q.   I'm going to move on to another topic.

21        A.   Mm-hm.

22        Q.   On pages 333 to 352 of Part 2 of your report, you discuss the

23     situational awareness of General Mladic as the commander of the VRS.

24             Could you please, first, define the concept of situational

25     awareness.

Page 20384

 1        A.   Your Honour, I took the following definition for situational

 2     awareness.  The understanding of the operational environment in the

 3     context of a commander's task.  This is a definition I took from a

 4     doctrinal document from the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence.  I have

 5     not been able to find the concept of situational awareness as such in

 6     SFRY armed forces doctrine, but what we have been discussing over the

 7     past two days, the two-down principle corresponds with the same; that is,

 8     that a commander has to be familiar with the activities of his units two

 9     levels down, not just confined to the units but also all other aspects

10     that can influence the conduct of operations like, I mean, that's what we

11     call the operational environment, the weather, the enemy forces,

12     logistical constraints, and so on and so on.  So all these factors.

13        Q.   Based on your analysis, what can you conclude as to the level of

14     situational awareness possessed by General Mladic?

15        A.   Your Honours, my conclusion is that General Mladic has a very

16     high level of situational awareness, and this is, for example, visible

17     through the inspections and other visits he conducts as well as meetings

18     with subordinate commanders.  It is also visible through the regular

19     combat reports that are submitted to him.  And as we have also seen over

20     the past days, if he feels that he is not adequately informed he -- he

21     himself or a subordinate member of the Main Staff contacts the unit for

22     which he believes, I mean General Mladic believes, that he is not

23     adequately informed and issues additional instructions in order to

24     rectify the situation.

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I would now like to discuss with you the military

Page 20385

 1     justice system in the VRS.  There are three sections of your report where

 2     you discuss the topic of military justice and military discipline and the

 3     application of the Law of Armed Conflict.  They are in Part 1 of your

 4     report on pages 88 to 112 and Part 2 of your report on pages 90 to 103,

 5     and pages 322 to 333.  Could you please briefly tell us how these three

 6     sections of your report relate to one another?

 7        A.   Your Honours, the first section, i.e., pages 88 to 112 of Part 1,

 8     discuss the legal and doctrinal framework as it existed for the SFRY

 9     armed forces, and most importantly there in addition, obviously, to the

10     All People's Defence law, we have the 1988 regulation on the application

11     of international laws of war in the armed forces of SFRY.  It is my

12     conclusion that these were still valid in the 1992 to 1995 time-period,

13     including for the VRS.

14             In the second section, I discuss the VRS military discipline

15     system and military justice system, which is based on the military

16     discipline and justice system that existed in the JNA and the SFRY armed

17     forces, and we see that various laws and -- and regulations are adopted

18     and also guide-lines are issued.

19             And then in the last section, I discuss how this system is

20     implemented during the 1992 to 1995 war, reviewing orders issued by

21     General Mladic -- I should start first by Mr. Karadzic, General Mladic,

22     as well as other members of the Main Staff in order to enforce military

23     discipline in the armed forces.

24             There are also examples included of investigations ordered by

25     General Mladic.  And -- and -- and, yeah, related documents.

Page 20386

 1        Q.   Going to the 1988 regulations and the parts that you discuss on

 2     pages 93 and 94 of Part 1, what do these express in terms of the

 3     commander's legal responsibilities?

 4        A.   Your Honours, they show, first of all, that a commander is

 5     responsible for the action of his subordinates, and this can be found in

 6     paragraph 21 of the 1988 regulations.  It also shows that an officer has

 7     to report violations of the laws of war if he has learned that such

 8     violations may have taken place.

 9             Paragraph 22 of the 1988 regulations discusses the responsibility

10     for violations of the laws of war committed on orders.

11        Q.   Your --

12        A.   Yeah?

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if it's okay with you, at this time the

14     Prosecution would simply tender the 1988 regulations.  They've been

15     uploaded under 65 ter 4377A.  An exhibit number has been reserved for

16     these regulations as P2185, marked for identification.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, the -- how many pages are we dealing

20     with?  And how relevant are all of these pages.

21             MR. WEBER:  We've gone through it and looked at in light of a

22     number of witnesses that have commented on it.  We've reduced multiple

23     chapters, but we've included all the relevant chapters, and I think it is

24     approximately -- I can check.  I believe it's over 50 pages, but they're

25     all relevant pages, in the Prosecution's view.

Page 20387

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it has a -- a number has already been reserved.

 4             P2185 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   As you mentioned --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, it is -- we're one minute short from the

 8     usual time where we take a break.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Whenever it's good for Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could already Mr. Theunens be escorted out of the

11     courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, at the same time, our conversation

14     yesterday at the end of the session was about timing.  I expressed some

15     views; you expressed some views.  Anything new to be reported?

16             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to finish today, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that report.

18             We take a break.  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   On pages 323 to 325 of Part 2, you discuss orders from

25     General Mladic instructing that perpetrators of certain particular acts

Page 20388

 1     be prosecuted or subjected to disciplinary measures.  What conclusions do

 2     you draw from these orders?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I -- I conclude from these orders that

 4     General Mladic has the authority to order investigations and -- but he

 5     uses this authority only I would say selectively; i.e., the focus of the

 6     enforcement of the military discipline and justice system, including his

 7     powers to order investigations, are focussed on violations or crimes that

 8     are directly related to the manner in which subordinates conduct

 9     operations; i.e., if General Mladic sees certain shortcomings in the

10     manner they were conducted, he orders an investigation.

11             I have not seen any documents by General Mladic or -- or the

12     Main Staff for the investigation of alleged violations of the laws of war

13     conducted by members of the VRS or other units operating under the

14     command of the Main Staff.

15             There are certain documents, not specifically for General Mladic,

16     but for the RS and VRS in general concerning the investigation of alleged

17     violations of the laws of war, but those are focused on alleged

18     violations committed by members of the opponents' forces.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 647.

20        Q.   Coming up before you will be a 17 August 1992 order from

21     General Mladic.  And could you please explain to us what this order shows

22     in relation to what you just told us.

23        A.   Your Honours, this -- this is in my view one of the examples that

24     illustrates or that forms the basis for my conclusion, that is, that

25     General Mladic, in this order, highlights a number of what he calls

Page 20389

 1     negative acts, and with negative acts he means activities that have a

 2     negative impact on combat readiness and the ability of the armed forces

 3     to conduct combat operations.

 4             I mean, from the title you can see there is a focus on -- on

 5     desertions, for example.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 3, it says:

 7             "Defecting to the enemy or wilfully deserting a combat position

 8     by members of the RS army are to be energetically prevented by all means,

 9     including the use of weapons."

10             What do you make of this?

11        A.   Well, Your Honours, the text is -- is clear.  I haven't seen

12     any -- any combat report or -- or other report indicating that, indeed,

13     weapons were used to prevent people or members of the VRS from deserting.

14             There is information, but again I haven't found a document about

15     that, but, for example, situation in September 1995 in the wider

16     Sanski Most area that there Arkan and his volunteers are present, among

17     other things, to prevent members of the VRS from abandoning combat

18     positions.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 647 into

20     evidence.

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  The document receives number P3066, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P3066 is admitted.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14522.

Page 20390

 1        Q.   This will be a 1 November 1994 order from General Mladic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we enlarge the English.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And if we can please scroll down to the lower

 4     portion.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell us what this example demonstrates?

 6        A.   This is another example, Your Honour, of General Mladic using his

 7     authority to order investigations.  In the specific case of members of

 8     the VRS, and here he refers to -- to commanding officers, of personnel,

 9     who wilfully retreat or abandon defence positions.  And this document has

10     to be seen in the context of the situation in -- in the western part of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina around that time, where we have a major offensive of

12     the 5th ABiH Corps from Bihac in eastern direction forcing the VRS to

13     retreat.

14             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 14522 into evidence.

15     The Prosecution does have seven more examples that it would like to go

16     through.  At this time, we're happy to tendered these also from the bar

17     table.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to this document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And to the suggestion by Mr. Weber that he would

21     tender the other ones as demonstrative of the same?

22             Does Mr. Ivetic know what numbers they are --

23             MR. IVETIC:  I do not.

24             MR. WEBER:  I can --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, could you -- of course, we couldn't expect

Page 20391

 1     Mr. Ivetic to express himself on documents not known to him.

 2             For this one, Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  P3067, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is admitted into evidence.

 5             I take it then, Mr. Weber, that you have seven more examples of

 6     where General Mladic orders that, in case of certain violations, that

 7     investigation and criminal charges should follow?

 8             MR. WEBER:  It's on the same topic, where -- yes.  I mean,

 9     there -- they're not all necessarily from General Mladic but they relate

10     to the same manner of senior members and what types of disciplinary

11     measures were taken.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I suggest that you sit together with

13     Mr. Ivetic - coffee or tea, I leave that to you - and see whether there's

14     any objection against them to be admitted.  If there is agreement,

15     perhaps you could provide the 65 ter numbers already in advance to

16     Mr. Registrar.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   At page 102 of Part 2, you discuss reports on the work of the

20     military prosecutor offices and what kinds of charges are reflected

21     there.

22             I have two questions in this respect.

23             First, can you conclude whether or not the charges reflected in

24     those documents are consistent with the priorities shown by General

25     Mladic's orders we have just seen, to enforce military discipline?

Page 20392

 1        A.   Indeed Your Honours.  I mean, most of -- or the cases that are

 2     dealt with by the military prosecutors all refer to violations and

 3     breaches of military discipline and military justice that directly affect

 4     or that are directly related to combat activities.  I have not seen any

 5     reports of cases concerning alleged violations of the laws of war by

 6     members of the VRS in these reports of the prosecutor's offices as well

 7     the VRS military courts.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P1963, page 2 of

 9     the English and page 3 of the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Mr. Theunens, we're going to be returning to a discussion of the

11     directives.

12             Before you is operational directive number 3 from General Mladic

13     dated 3 August 1992.  I would like to draw your attention to section 2 of

14     this directive, which states:

15             "In operations to date, the SR BH army has achieved significant

16     results in protecting the Serbian people and their centuries-old home.

17             "Safe corridors have been established and the Serbian territories

18     linked, while large losses and manpower and MTS have been inflicted on

19     the enemy."

20             Do you have any comments on this first part and what is its

21     purpose of this retrospective recap in a directive, more generally.

22        A.   Your Honours, directives, they start with an overview of the

23     current situation including the alleged activities of -- of enemy forces.

24     The reference to protecting the Serbian people and their centuries-old

25     home is, I think, is a constant between even end of 1991, but for sure

Page 20393

 1     when the VRS starts in various documents of the -- starts with -- is

 2     established, sorry.  In various documents from the VRS Main Staff and

 3     subordinate commands that basically the Bosnian Serbs are fighting or

 4     have been forced to fight a war, which is in their view a defensive war,

 5     that is intended at protecting the Serbian population and defending

 6     Serbian lands, quote/unquote.  And this was expressed in the first

 7     sentence of title 2.  The reference to the safe corridors corresponds

 8     with the establishment of the so-called Posavina corridor between Krajina

 9     and Semberija, i.e., strategic goal number 2, as well as also strategic

10     goal number 3, establishment of a corridor in the Drina valley and

11     eliminating the Drina as a border, even if strategic goal number 3 is not

12     fully realised at the stage of the release of Directive number 3 on the

13     3rd of August, 1992.

14        Q.   With respect to the remainder of this section, do you have any

15     comments on this directive and what the tasks are ordering at the

16     operational/tactical level?

17        A.   Well, we would have to see the section with the tasks, but in my

18     report on page 110, English version, second part, I discuss which goals

19     Directive number 3 foresees to implement.  We spoke about strategic goal

20     number 2.  There are reference to strategic goal number 5, as well as to

21     strategic goals -- strategic goal number -- number 6.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could we just quickly go to the next page in the

23     English and page 5 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And if we could please scroll down just a little bit further

25     about -- under operation objectives.

Page 20394

 1        A.   Mm-hm.

 2        Q.   Could you please just go through which parts refer to those

 3     specific strategic goals.

 4        A.   Preventing the breaking of the blockade of Sarajevo,

 5     Your Honours, corresponds with strategic goal number 5; i.e., maintaining

 6     the blockade of -- maintaining the division, I'm sorry, of Sarajevo.

 7             Determinedly defend axes leading from Cazin Krajina and western

 8     Herzegovina towards central Bosnia, as well as Dubrovacka Zupa towards

 9     Herzegovina is -- is -- I mean, is a mixture of the various objectives

10     because they are parts of objective number 2, corridor; number three,

11     elimination of the Drina as a border; number 4 to set the borders of

12     the -- the RS on the Una and Neretva river.  Then we have another

13     reference to Sarajevo.  The fourth bullet, I mean, crushing the,

14     quote/unquote, Ustasha forces in Posavina and Majevica, this corresponds

15     with goal number 2, the corridor.

16             Then below that we see the reference to Neretva.  And -- and I

17     mean, explicit reference to border areas of Serbian territories which is

18     strategic goal number 4.  Some reference to strategic goal number 3 when

19     you look at Gorazde.  And I believe further on -- I mean, I thought there

20     was also reference to the access to the sea in the document, but that's

21     maybe further on in the document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, the first one you read, only prevent

23     the breaking of the blockade of Sarajevo --

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it continue -- links that to strategic goal

Page 20395

 1     number 5.

 2             It continues:  And also prevent the penetration of Ustasha forces

 3     from Croatia and Central Bosnia towards the corridors in Posavina.  Would

 4     that be -- could we link that to strategic goal number 2.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina, could that be in

 7     relation to the strategic goal preventing the Drina river to be the

 8     border?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours, number 3.  And there's also a

10     reference -- what can be seen in the context of number 4, establishing a

11     border on the Neretva because Herzegovina we're talking about -- I mean,

12     this is the wider area of the Neretva.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could we move onto another document.  Could the

15     Prosecution please have 65 ter 02459.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17        Q.   These are the minutes of the 21st Presidency Session held on

18     2 August 1992, a day before the issuance of Directive 3.  The session was

19     attended by Ratko Mladic, Radovan Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, Krajisnik,

20     and Colonel Tolimir.  The agenda for the meeting includes under item 2 an

21     assessment of the military situation.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could we please have page 2 of both versions.

23        Q.   Under item 2, we see that Mladic briefed those present on the

24     military situation, describing the situation in each combat sector,

25     necessary tasks, and other matters.  It is noted in these minutes that:

Page 20396

 1     "Due to security considerations and the detailed nature of the

 2     information, the conclusions and alternatives adopted were not put on the

 3     record."

 4             Based on these minutes and your review of materials from other

 5     sessions where General Mladic was present, what observations do you have

 6     about General Mladic's role at either assembly sessions or in these

 7     Presidency meetings.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I would object.  The witness has been tendered as a

11     military analyst expert.  Now he's being asked to opine as to political

12     and historical matters which goes the scope of his stated expertise.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  The mere fact that matters

15     are considered, including some historical aspects, doesn't mean that the

16     subject matter is outside the scope of the expertise of the witness.

17             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Mr. Theunens, do you need me to repeat the yes?

20        A.   No, Your Honours, I can answer it.

21             On English page 334 of the second part of the report, I provide

22     an overview of meetings of the Supreme Command and/or the Presidency

23     which are attended by General Mladic or other senior representatives of

24     the VRS Main Staff throughout May 1992 to November 1995 time-period.  And

25     from those we can conclude that General Mladic is the -- yeah, the main

Page 20397

 1     interlocutor for the Supreme Command and the Presidency to be informed

 2     about the military situation in -- in -- in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             Footnote 1221, for example, even if -- refers to a decision of

 4     the Presidency to establish a procedure whereby General Mladic can keep

 5     them informed on a daily basis.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 2459 into evidence.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P3068, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  P3068 is admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  And just for the clarification of transcript,

12     65 ter number is 2549.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You misspoke, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And thank you.

15             Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3033.

16        Q.   Just continuing on the same topic, coming up before you will be

17     the minutes of the 21st Session of the SRBiH Presidency.  We can see from

18     the document who's present.  At the bottom of the page, it indicates that

19     General Mladic and General Gvero arrive during the session.

20             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the next page of the English

21     version and the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Again, we see that the generals brief the Presidency in detail on

23     military and strategic questions and other matters, and there's also a

24     similar language about the matters not being put on the record.  Do these

25     minutes show that the Bosnian Serb political leadership, including

Page 20398

 1     Karadzic and Krajisnik, were receiving detailed briefings from

 2     General Mladic during the course of operations that were being carried

 3     out pursuant to Directive 3?

 4        A.   Yes, they do, Your Honours.  And, again, as I mentioned earlier,

 5     it's not restricted to a specific directive.  It's throughout the

 6     May 1992 to November 1995 time-period.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 689.

 8        Q.   We have looked at a couple of Presidency minutes that indicate

 9     the Bosnian Serb political leadership were briefed in detail about

10     military strategic matters related to the VRS at their meetings.  I want

11     to now turn your attention to the Bosnian Serb political leadership's

12     presence at military meetings.

13             This is a document dated 7 November 1992 from

14     General Manojlo Milovanovic to the VRS corps and the Doboj OG commander.

15     What does this document relate to?

16        A.   Your Honours, this document has to be seen in context with the

17     corridor 92 operation.  I would call it a second series of corridor 92

18     operations to establish a corridor between Semberija and Serbia actually

19     and Bosanska Krajina and also the Croatian Krajina, i.e., strategic goal

20     number 2, and such operations were conducted, first, in June/July 1992,

21     and the second series of operations of the same type were conducted in

22     November 1992, and those are discussed paged 198 and following in Part 2

23     of the report.

24        Q.   According to this -- this order from -- this order that's

25     mentioned in Part 1, what time and place is this meeting supposed to

Page 20399

 1     occur?

 2        A.   As the document states, Your Honour, a meeting is called for the

 3     8th of November, 1992, in Bijeljina barracks, with the member -- with

 4     General Mladic's as well as the members of the Presidency, the corps

 5     commanders, the commander of the -- the air force and defence forces, and

 6     the commander of OG Doboj.

 7             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tender this is document at this time.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As P3069, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P356, page

13     141 of both versions.

14        Q.   Coming up before you will be an 8th November 1992 entry from

15     General Mladic's notebooks.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These two versions seem to be -- not to

17     correspond.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Just to move quicker to -- to focus on some specific points, I'll

20     just briefly indicate for the record that we see that it's a meeting on

21     Sunday, the 8th of November, 1992, between 10.37 and 5.00.  As we can see

22     from this first page, Radovan Karadzic is present, and on this page - and

23     if we could just go forward in the following pages eventually to page

24     145 - we can see that the various corps commanders give reports and also

25     the commander of the Doboj operations group, Colonel Simic?

Page 20400

 1             After this, we see that General Mladic's notes indicate he

 2     discussed the strategic and operational position of the army of the RS

 3     and assignments for further actions.  Karadzic then, according to these

 4     notes, offers congratulations and states:

 5             "The army and our courageous officers contributed enormously to

 6     the results we have achieved to date."

 7             If we could go on to the next page of both versions, we see that

 8     Mr. Karadzic is recorded as at the end of his comments as stating:

 9     "Maybe it would be good" --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down while reading.

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   At the end, Karadzic states:  "Maybe it would be good if we

13     solved the issue of the Drina."  Based on the notes of this meeting so

14     far, and in relation to the document that we just looked at, is this the

15     meeting that was discussed in that previous document?

16        A.   Your Honours, in the absence of information concerning another

17     meeting and taking into account the duration of this meeting, which

18     covers the largest part of the day, I think that's a reasonable

19     conclusion.

20        Q.   On this page and next, General Mladic records Krajisnik speaking

21     and offering his admiration of the military.  He then states:

22             "We have a disproportionate engagement of the army in relation to

23     the strategic objectives."

24             Could we please have the next page.  He then indicates:

25             "We have not achieved:  The Neretva; the sea; the Podrinje area."

Page 20401

 1             And he states what:

 2             "We have achieved:  The corridor; separation with Muslims."

 3             As of November 1992, does this assessment accurately reflect the

 4     achieved and non-achieved objectives from the Bosnian Serb six strategic

 5     goals?

 6        A.   Indeed, Your Honours, it does.

 7        Q.   Krajisnik continues to state:

 8             "We must bring the war to an end.  The most pressing thing is to

 9     mop up Orasje and then to solve the problem of the Podrinje area and the

10     Neretva river valley as soon as possible ..."

11             He then states:

12             "The Muslims must not stay with us and they should not be given

13     any kind of autonomy.

14             "The most important objective is the task assigned to Zivanovic -

15     the mopping up the Drina - the most important task is separation from the

16     Muslims."

17             What is Krajisnik referring to in this part of these -- these

18     notes?

19        A.   You mean which strategic goals or?

20        Q.   Well, if could you first indicate what it is he saying in

21     relation to the strategic goals, but then secondly if could you comment

22     on the task that he's discussing with respect to Zivanovic.

23        A.   Okay.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

Page 20402

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I would object.  Now the witness is being asked to

 2     opine about what a politician is talking about as to a strategic

 3     objective.  Again, this witness has been presented as a purported

 4     military analyst expert, meaning that he is related -- in relation to the

 5     command and control within the military, so I don't think that offering

 6     speculation or opinion as to what politicians mean by their words is

 7     appropriate.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Since this politician is engaged in a meeting with

 9     the military, it's relevant.

10             At the same time, Mr. Weber, could I add to this, that to ask the

11     witness seven times, Neretva river, is that Neretva a strategic goal,

12     et cetera, or is it -- the Chamber has a -- I wouldn't say a thorough but

13     at least a firm understanding of strategic goals, and unless there's any

14     specific reason to -- what seems to be obvious in terms of language

15     linked to strategic goals, that doesn't need that much further

16     explanation.

17             You may proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could you please tell us, if you have --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And, of course, it includes that the objection was

20     denied.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   Could you please tell us if you have any comments on this task

23     that's being referred to with respect to Zivanovic.

24        A.   What is of interest is looking at the timing because this meeting

25     takes place on 8th of November, and 11 days later we have the release of

Page 20403

 1     directive for further operations number 4, which discusses tasks in

 2     relation to the situation in the -- in the Podrinje and -- and the Drina

 3     valley in great detail, showing consistency with, for example, at --

 4     Mr. Krajisnik says in relation to the Muslims.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to Directive 4.  It

 6     is P1968.  If we could go directly to page 2 of the English and page 3 of

 7     the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   I'd like focus first your attention on section 2 of this

 9     directive.  There is no need, as we've heard, for you to comment

10     unnecessarily on individual strategic goals.  But could you please read

11     the section and just indicate whether or not this confirms what had been

12     accomplished up till date?

13        A.   Yes, indeed, that's what the document says.  So, I mean, we see a

14     continuity in the nature of the operations that are being conducted, in

15     continuity including consistency with the six strategic goals.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go to the top of page 3 in the

17     English and page 5 of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   According to this directive, what tasks from Directive 3, the

19     previous one, had not been carried out at the time of Directive 4?

20        A.   General Mladic gives or lists four tasks and they can be found at

21     top of English number 3 and B/C/S page number 5.  And I think -- I mean,

22     as Your Honours have said, the link with the specific strategic goals is

23     clear.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could we go to the top of page 4 of the English and

25     page 7 of the B/C/S.

Page 20404

 1        Q.   At the top of this page, we are looking at a continuation of a

 2     section from the previous, related to aims of operations.  Could you

 3     please tell us whether -- you have any comments about the aims of the

 4     operations ordered pursuant to Directive 4?

 5        A.   No, I mean, I'm sorry, I will probably repeat myself, that I see

 6     a consistency.  When you look at all the directives, obviously they are

 7     released in different conditions, I mean, in relation to the gains the

 8     VRS has made while implementing the previous directive, the attitude of

 9     the international community plays also a role obviously in relation to

10     the -- the defining the forthcoming tasks for the VRS, but otherwise

11     there is a consistency for all -- I'd say for sure the first eight

12     directives with the six strategic goals.  The ninth directive is in my

13     view a special given that it's released after the international community

14     has launched a major intervention against the Bosnian Serbs and also the

15     Bosnian Serbs have suffered significant losses in western

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there are talks ongoing at the higher level, I

17     mean, in Belgrade, involving President Milosevic for a negotiated end to

18     the conflict.  And I'm talking now about the October /November 1995

19     time-period.  But prior to that, as I mentioned, there is consistency

20     between the directives, successive directives, and the six strategic

21     goals.

22        Q.   If I could focus you on one particular passage in this section.

23     It's in the -- where General Mladic talks about the second stage.  He

24     states:  [As read] "That -- that second stage is lasting until the final

25     liberation of all -- the territories of RS."  Could you please tell us

Page 20405

 1     how this relates to the long-term nature of directives that he issued?

 2        A.   Well, the overall goal for the Bosnian Serbs is to establish a,

 3     quote/unquote, Serb republic that includes all the territories that, in

 4     view of the -- or in the opinion of the Bosnian Serbs are Serb.  The

 5     problem as I mentioned during the previous days is that at least in the

 6     beginning of the war that also includes territories where the Serbs do

 7     not have a majority, and, I mean, in those territories where they also

 8     have a majority, there are still non-Serbs present who do not necessarily

 9     want to stay in a, quote/unquote, Serbian republic but who prefer to stay

10     in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the

12     English and page 11 of the B/C/S.

13        Q.   This is in the tasks section of the directive, under, I believe,

14     part (d) is the tasks for the Drina Corps.  Do you have any comments on

15     these tasks that were issued to the Drina Corps?

16        A.   Your Honours, this refers to what I mentioned earlier to the

17     comments by Mr. Krajisnik at the meeting in Bijeljina on the 8th of

18     November, where he spoke about the need to remove the Muslim population

19     from the -- the wider Drina valley.  And -- and, here under the tasks of

20     the Drina Corps, this -- those comments are explicitly included.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2095.

22        Q.   This is a 24 November 1992 decision for further operations from

23     Zivanovic.  Does this document from Zivanovic indicate that Directive 4

24     was immediately implemented by the Drina Corps?

25        A.   Indeed, Your Honours, this order by the commander of the Drina

Page 20406

 1     Corps is consistent with the tasks he has received from General Mladic

 2     through directive for further operations, number 4.

 3        Q.   Do you have any other comments on what Zivanovic orders under

 4     item 1?

 5        A.   I mean, obviously the order of the corps is more detailed than

 6     the -- than the directive.  Because the lower you go in the hierarchy,

 7     the more specific instruction -- sorry, orders will become.  And this is

 8     consistent with doctrine.  But, again, the commander's intent, as was

 9     expressed in the Directive number 4, is reflected in -- in this order by

10     the Drina Corps, and the references to the Muslim population are --

11     again, as I mentioned, consistent with the instructions received through

12     Directive number 4.

13        Q.   In your report you analyse a number of VRS operations.  I'm not

14     going to go through all of them with you today.  But among them are

15     Operation Udar, Proboj, Proljece, Mac 1, 2, and 3.  Were these operations

16     carried out, in part, by the Drina Corps between January and June 1993?

17        A.   That -- that is correct, Your Honours.

18        Q.   Were they carried out in a manner consistent with the -- with

19     Directive 4?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honours, and that also applies to similar operations

21     conducted in 1994, because there was, for example, Mac 94, as you can see

22     on English page 169 of my report.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 05500.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I was still trying to find in the

25     previous document, which was the Drina Corps order to the Zvornik Light

Page 20407

 1     Infantry Brigade, whether it was also specifically mentioned that the

 2     civilian population should leave with the -- but I may have missed it.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm happy to return to it if you're --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if Mr. Theunens tells us where I can find it,

 5     then -- it was still in paragraph 1?

 6             THE WITNESS:  It was on the top half of the page -- of the

 7     English page -- I mean, of page 1 in English on the top half.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 1.  I'll further look at it, and if I still

 9     can't find it later, then I'll come back to it.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             THE WITNESS:  Well, I mean, it was on the top of the page we saw

12     at the end, so I think that was page 2, where it was stated to remove the

13     Muslim population from Cerska, Zepa, and Gorazde.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll find, or not, and, if not, then I'll let you

15     know.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   This is a 2 May 1993 combat order from Drina Corps

19     Deputy Commander Skocajic.  Could you please tell us what the status of

20     the operations are according to the first paragraph of this report?

21        A.   Your Honours, by that date the United Nations have declared the

22     Srebrenica enclave a safe area.  And the VRS Main Staff, I mean, in the

23     introduction to the order when they provide an overview of the general

24     situation addresses that decision by describing it as, quote/unquote,

25     internationalising the problem of the area of Podrinje.  Yeah, reference

Page 20408

 1     also made to the agreement on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica.  So

 2     that's basically the operational context in which -- in which this order

 3     has to be seen.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the -- page 3 of

 5     the English, and the bottom of page 2 of the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   And I'm referring you to section 2 of this order, setting out the

 7     task of the army.  Do you have any observations on this section.

 8        A.   Perhaps on the expression "ocisti" or "clearing up."  I

 9     understand that sometimes there's confusion because it's translated as

10     cleansing and then associations are made with ethnic cleansing.  But from

11     a military point of view, clearing the battle-field means to remove

12     resistance pockets or pockets of enemy forces that may still be present

13     as well as unexploded explosive, corpses of -- of, I mean, animals or

14     anything else that is left that may interfere with the control one has

15     over the territory that one has captured.

16             So it's a normal tactical concept.  And otherwise, there is again

17     a reference to enabling -- I mean, in the fourth line of paragraph 2:

18     [As read] "Enable the Muslim population to move out to other areas, the

19     central part of the former BH, or to recognise the authority of the RS."

20     And I think have addressed that earlier, that is, that -- I mean,

21     strategic goal number 1, it is not excluded that non-Serbs who are loyal,

22     as it is described, to the RS or who accept Serbian rule, quote/unquote,

23     as it is sometimes mentioned in VRS documents, those people can stay but

24     the others, as is illustrated here, have to -- to leave.

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 5500 into evidence.

Page 20409

 1             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives P3070, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P3070 is admitted.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 13437.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   This is a VRS Main Staff report on the conclusions from the

 9     assessment of the situation.  Did you review this document during

10     proofing?  Dated 30 May, 1993.

11        A.   Yes, I believe I did, Your Honours.

12             MR. WEBER:  Could we please go to page 4 of this document.

13        Q.   In the second paragraph, under the strategic and operational --

14     operative situation and problems, how does this paragraph relate to the

15     exercise of command and control by the Main Staff during the operations

16     that were carried out in the Podrinje area?

17        A.   Well, in relation to the -- to the -- the -- the role of the

18     Main Staff, it is explicitly mentioned that representatives of the

19     Main Staff of the VRS have been in the zone of operations of the Drina

20     Corps since January 1993, and there also -- a forward command post has

21     been established in that area.

22        Q.   In the following paragraph, is there a direct reference to

23     strategic objective number 3?

24        A.   Yes, there is, Your Honours.  I mean, between the quotation marks

25     at the end of the paragraph.

Page 20410

 1        Q.   Going onto the next paragraph, what does -- do you have any

 2     comments on what that shows in terms of the Muslim forces and others?

 3        A.   As it shows that actually three enclaves have been created as a

 4     result of operations, so part of the population -- or the majority,

 5     actually, of the Muslim population has -- has fled according to the

 6     document, and the reminder -- remainder, sorry, of the troops of the ABiH

 7     are grouped in three enclaves:  Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm noting the time.  This is a -- a

 9     good spot to -- to break.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.

11             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter past midday.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to address the Prosecution on two exhibits.

18             On the -- this is about the decision on the 38th Rule 92 bis

19     motion.

20             On the 28th of November, the Chamber has admitted into evidence

21     two maps of Rogatica; namely, P3019 and P3026.  Both maps have B/C/S

22     writings on them, and there are no English translations attached.  The

23     Prosecution is instructed to upload such translations and the Registry is

24     already instructed to attach those translations once uploaded, unless the

25     Prosecution would make a clear statement that it would not rely on any of

Page 20411

 1     those portions of text, but then we'd like to have that clearly on the

 2     record.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders the last document 65

 6     ter 13437.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could you please slowly repeat the number

 8     again.

 9             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 13437.

10             MR. IVETIC:  The Defence has no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Registrar is invited to assign a number.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives number P3071, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P3071 is admitted.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 23609.

15        Q.   Before you is a VRS Main Staff security intelligence report

16     regarding the percentage of territory held by each of the three ethnic

17     groups in BH.  The report is from Colonel Tolimir and is dated

18     14 September 1993.  What does this report show?

19        A.   Your Honour, the report shows the Bosnian Serb interpretation of

20     the situation on the battle-field, i.e., what amount of territory is

21     controlled by which party.

22        Q.   And with respect to the VRS, how much territory is controlled?

23        A.   According to the document, 68.09 per cent.

24        Q.   And does this also then describe the territory controlled by what

25     is the so-called BiH army?

Page 20412

 1             MR. WEBER:  If we could please scroll down in the English.

 2             THE WITNESS:  It does and this -- I mean, this so-called BH army

 3     stands for the ABiH.  And then a distinction is made with Cazin Krajina

 4     because by that time or maybe a bit later because I -- is the document

 5     from September 1993?  It is difficult to see.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   It was.  It was dated 14 September, 1993.

 8        A.   Yeah.  Then Fikret Abdic declares his own entity, the so-called

 9     Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, in the northern part of the

10     Cazin Krajina.

11        Q.   Could we please have the next page English.  I believe the

12     information is still on this page in the B/C/S.  Do you have any comments

13     on the enclaves that are indicated on this page?

14        A.   Yes, it -- I mean, the document shows the -- the three -- it

15     shows Sarajevo as an enclave and then the three enclaves in eastern

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 23609.

18             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P3072, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P359,

23     page 53 of both versions.

24             And, Your Honours, when this comes up, if it would expedite the

25     record, I would be happy to lead in the attendees at this meeting if it's

Page 20413

 1     not objected to by the Defence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I'm sorry, no objections.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as suggested, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Theunens, coming up before you will be another entry from

 7     General Mladic's notebooks regarding a meeting on the 13th and 14th of

 8     December, 1993.

 9             In attendance from Serbia are Slobodan Milosevic,

10     General Perisic, Zoran Sokolovic, the head of the Serbian MUP;

11     Jovica Stanisic, the assistant minister of the Serbian MUP and chief of

12     the State Security Service; Radovan Stojicic aka Badza, an assistant

13     minister of the Serbian MUP, head of public security; Milan Tepavcevic, a

14     deputy of Mr. Stanisic, Jovica [Overlapping speakers] --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should slow down.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   And General Mrksic.  The names that -- from the RS had been

19     discussed many times on the record.  Did you review this meeting during

20     proofing?

21        A.   Yes, I reviewed these notes during proofing.

22        Q.   Do you have any comments on Jovica Stanisic's initial statement

23     and what the purpose of this meeting is?

24        A.   Well, according to the -- the -- the -- the comments attributed

25     to Jovica Stanisic, the meeting is about Serbia assisting the Bosnian

Page 20414

 1     Serbs in order to improve their, quote/unquote, operational and tactical

 2     position.

 3        Q.   Now, on Tuesday, at page 20264, I asked you at what level of

 4     command are strategic decisions made, and you provided an answer about

 5     the various levels of decision-making at the strategic level, operational

 6     level, and tactical level.

 7             Do you have any comments on this page based on what level of

 8     either planning or decision-making is involved at this meeting?

 9        A.   Well, given the -- the positions held by the participants in the

10     meeting, one would expect that strategic level decisions are -- are made.

11     I mean, sometimes the -- the distinction with the operational level may

12     be difficult to make, but at least would you expect strategic level

13     decisions.

14        Q.   You say based on the participants at the meeting.  Why do you say

15     that?

16        A.   Well, I mean, you have senior officials from the VJ; namely,

17     General Perisic who is the chief of General Staff and General Mrksic who

18     is commander of the special forces corps.  You have senior officials of

19     the Republic of Serbia, I mean, President Milosevic, as well as of the

20     MUP Serbia, and you have -- you read them out, and you have the

21     counterparts from the Republika Srpska.  So -- I mean, those are the

22     highest political authorities and -- sorry, political and military

23     authorities.

24        Q.   Do you have any comments on Karadzic's -- the notes in terms of

25     Karadzic's statements on this page and what their relevance are to this

Page 20415

 1     meeting?

 2        A.   Well, at the bottom of the page you can see that he reiterates

 3     the six strategic goals.  It may be a -- a typo or something -- I mean,

 4     not a typo but an error in taking notes.  But both strategic goals 5 and

 5     6 have been inverted.  But otherwise they -- the goals as set or the

 6     strategic objectives as set by Karadzic are the same ones as he mentioned

 7     in May 1992 -- 12 May 1992 at the 16th Assembly Session and as have also

 8     been reiterated in the various directives of the VRS.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 60 of both

10     versions.

11        Q.   On this page we see additional notes of comments by

12     Jovica Stanisic and also then later on by Tomo Kovac.  Do you have any

13     comments on what these notes show?

14        A.   Your Honours, Jovica Stanisic's comments or those attributed to

15     him show that he is discussing the -- the -- the -- a special group

16     for -- for night-time distance operations, which would consist of 100 to

17     120 men.  I mean, we have to see this in context of other documents, but

18     at face value one would expect that he is talking about making a group of

19     the MUP Serbia available with the characteristics as he describes there,

20     and he also talks about setting up a Joint Staff from -- consisting of

21     representatives of MUP Serbia as well as from VRS units.  I mean,

22     Visegrad and Sinica are brigades of VRS units.

23        Q.   What does this show about Jovica Stanisic's level of situational

24     awareness of events that are going on in Bosnia at both the operational

25     and tactical level?

Page 20416

 1        A.   Well, it shows at least for this part that he discussing

 2     operational/tactical matters.  I mean, he -- he seems -- he's familiar or

 3     he seems to be familiar with that part of the Drina valley, yeah, which

 4     shows an understanding of tactical -- of the tactical and operational

 5     situation in that area.

 6        Q.   Just going down to Tomo Kovac, do you have any different comments

 7     than what -- those you have just made with respect to Mr. Stanisic or any

 8     more detailed one?

 9        A.   No, it's the same level of detail.

10        Q.   Prior to this date --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- could I ask -- is everything about

12     Mr. Kovac, is that on this page or ...

13             MR. WEBER:  It may continue onto the next page, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because before we say that it is the same

15     detail, could we have a look at the next page?

16             It's unclear to me whether this continues to represent what

17     Mr. Kovac said.

18             Could I ask you, Mr. Theunens, when you said the same level of

19     detail what did you have in mind?  And could we go back to the previous

20     page.

21             THE WITNESS:  I -- I can answer without the page.  What I had in

22     mind was the level of detail in relation --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  But I'd like to have the previous page.  There

24     we are.  Zoom in on the lower part in the Stanisic and the Kovac

25     observations.  Yes.  You said that what is written down here shows a

Page 20417

 1     similar level of detail compared to what Mr. Stanisic said.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, my answer referred to the nature

 3     of -- of forces that have to be -- or that seem to be under discussion to

 4     be engaged to conduct operations.  Kovac does not go into geographic

 5     details but he talks about -- I mean, he gives detailed information on

 6     the size of a unit that can be made available including the deadline

 7     within which that can be done.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that, but how does that show any

 9     awareness of the situation on the grounds?  If I say, I'll spend

10     500 euros on a charity, what does that say about my knowledge about the

11     charity?  It says something about that I'm willing to spend 500 euros.

12             So, therefore, Mr. Stanisic refers to brigades and positions --

13             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and in that context offers or at least says how

15     much men he would be willing to make available.  So I was a bit puzzled

16     by your observation that it was a similar level of awareness.

17             THE WITNESS:  I -- I apologise for the misunderstanding,

18     Your Honours.  What I meant by the level of detail was, as I explained in

19     my subsequent answer, the level of detail in relation to the -- the size

20     of a unit and the deadline within which that could be made available.

21     Kovac obviously does not make any comments on the tactical situation in

22     the area.

23             One would assume that, I mean, when is he talking about engaging

24     a unit that he also understands where this will be and if he gives a

25     deadline.  The location where that unit is to be used obviously impacts

Page 20418

 1     on a deadline because there is a duration of transport.  So -- but I do

 2     agree with you he does not give any -- in his answer or in his comments

 3     he doesn't give any detailed -- any comments -- he doesn't comment at all

 4     on the geographic or tactical situation in the region discussed by

 5     Mr. Stanisic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm again looking at your answer in relation

 9     to Stanisic and then in relation to Kovac.  And you said about Stanisic:

10             "He seems to be familiar with the situation in that part of the

11     Drina valley here which shows as understanding of tactical and

12     operational understanding in that area."

13             And then you were asked about Kovac.  You said:

14             "No, it's the same heavily of detail."

15             In your first answer to Stanisic, you clearly referred to a -- I

16     would say knowledge of the tactical situation, not just about numbers to

17     be made available.  So, therefore, it was somewhat confusing, now having

18     heard your further explanation.

19             Mr. Weber you may proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Mr. Theunens, how did these comments relate in terms of the

22     context of this meeting and the strategic goals that we saw Mr. -- or

23     Dr. Karadzic discuss earlier?  At least according to the notes.

24        A.   I'm not sure what I have to say because, I mean, it's clear in

25     the document.  We are talking about the situation in the Drina valley

Page 20419

 1     where Mr. Karadzic gives --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I earlier observed that if the story is

 3     about the Drina valley and then when you ask the witness does that

 4     correlate in any way with the strategic goals that unless there is any

 5     reason to -- despite mentioning Drina valley, it nevertheless should be

 6     understood as Neretva, unless we have such an exceptional situation, the

 7     Chamber is available to recognise that Drina valley and Drina valley are

 8     the same words and therefore refer to the same strategic goals unless

 9     explained otherwise.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   In your report, you've included a significant number of

13     intelligence reports from Zdravko Tolimir.  Is Mr. Stanisic including

14     amongst the addressees on these intelligence reports or a good number of

15     them?

16        A.   Yes, he is Your Honours.  And this is discussed on page 341 of

17     Part 2 of the report, and I mean the reference -- the inclusion can be

18     seen in the addressee list of the references under footnote 1245.

19        Q.   What is the reason that individuals would be included on an

20     addressee list of an intelligence report?

21        A.   It shows that there is a recognised need to know for these

22     individuals to obtain or to receive that information.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if Mr. Theunens would not have answered

24     the question, I would have said you address something to someone because

25     you want him to know about what is in that document.

Page 20420

 1             Now, have you ever heard of any other reasons to address -- well,

 2     there may be a more specific one, to act on it or something like that.

 3     But even if you want to know whether someone has to act upon something,

 4     you'd need to know the content.  I mean, let's not ask for the obvious.

 5     Let's focus on what really matters.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I'm going to move onto another topic right now.

 9     I'd like to talk to you about the topic of logistics and General Mladic's

10     involvement in this area.

11             Could you please generally tell us, first, the nature of

12     General Mladic's involvement in logistics.

13        A.   Your Honours, summarising the documents I have discussed in my

14     report, General Mladic issues orders on how logistic support can be

15     requested from the VJ, and he also issues orders on the redistribution of

16     certain weapons systems.  For example, when we are talking about the

17     modified air-bombs and the equipment that is required to use them.  He

18     also issues several, I would say, numerous requests to his counterpart in

19     the VJ, General Perisic, to obtain logistic supply - mainly ammunition

20     and weapons - for the VRS in order to conduct operations between, say,

21     May 1992, and where Perisic is concerned, of course, and this is after

22     August 1993 and November 1995.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P3029, English page

24     435 and B/C/S page 432.

25        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I'm going to be calling up page 219 of Part 2 of

Page 20421

 1     your report.

 2             On this page of the report, you include an excerpt of

 3     General Mladic's statements during the 50th RS Assembly Session in

 4     April 1995.  What does his comments specifically show about the condition

 5     or his involvement in VRS logistics?

 6        A.   I mean, the comment doesn't really reflect General Mladic's

 7     involvement as I have explained in my previous answer, but it shows his

 8     awareness of the logistic requirements, in particular, for what

 9     ammunition is concerned for the VJ -- for the VRS, and he -- I mean, he

10     also provides detailed information on the consumption of ammunition by

11     the VRS during combat operations.  And, as I mentioned, he gives a very

12     detailed breakdown as to the provenance of that ammunition.  For the

13     different types of ammunition.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now go to 65 ter 8869.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we move on, is this uncommon for a commander

16     at his level to be briefed by his staff and subordinate units on precise

17     percentages to have this kind of knowledge?  I mean, I do understand

18     that - and I take it, unless you believe otherwise - that he did not had

19     all these percentages ready from the top of his head but that someone

20     provided to him, so he most likely has asked for it or at least it was

21     offered to him, is that uncommon if you address the audience in the

22     situation where he was in?

23             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I think there are different

24     components in your question.

25             It's obviously not uncommon that the commander of the Main Staff

Page 20422

 1     or the chief of General Staff receives detailed briefings on the

 2     logistics situation of his army, i.e., what is consumed and what is

 3     available and where does it come from.

 4             However, on -- this entry refers to what General Mladic himself

 5     is stating to the members of the RS Assembly Session.  So obviously he

 6     has not made a calculations himself.  He is sharing the information he

 7     has obtained from his assistant commander for logistics.  I mean, it

 8     could be debated whether the members of the parliament need such detailed

 9     information.  But in any event General Mladic, who had obtained this

10     information, considered it necessary to share it with the assembly

11     members.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, necessary or not, he did it.

13             THE WITNESS:  He did it, yeah.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:

17        Q.   Mr. Theunens, the document that's up before you -- actually, the

18     exhibit that -- the upload in front of you contains a series of documents

19     related to different types of materiel.

20             The first document on this is 23 January 1994, Main Staff

21     logistic sector notification from Major-General Djordje Djukic.  Does

22     this document show specifically where the mortar shells -- the supply of

23     mortar shells are coming from?  At least according to this document.

24        A.   Yes.  I mean, in paragraph 3 mention is made about the supply of

25     mortar shells, i.e., rounds by a factory in Valjevo, in Serbia.

Page 20423

 1             And this has been approved by, I mean, by the chief of general --

 2     by the General Staff of the VJ.  Yeah, that's what the document states.

 3     It's difficult to find out what happens after; I mean, how these mortar

 4     rounds are to be brought to the RS.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page.

 6             These documents are not necessarily linked in that fashion, so as

 7     not to confuse the matters.

 8        Q.   This is a document from Pretis.

 9        A.   Mm-hm.

10        Q.   What does this document indicate in terms of General Mladic's

11     involvement?

12        A.   The document states that the deployment of -- of ... guns, I

13     mean, two types of gun for operational support that are being

14     manufactured in Belgrade, that this deployment is to be approved by

15     General Mladic.  So it shows co-operation between not only the VJ and the

16     VRS but also their respective ammunitions or weapons factories and

17     production facilities with the approval, obviously, of the -- of the VJ

18     and the VRS.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm going to have similar questions on

20     the next couple of documents.  I don't know if Mr. Ivetic is okay with me

21     tendering this document all of these documents at this time.  There's a

22     total of --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, it's --

24             MR. WEBER:  -- five documents in this upload.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's Pretis --

Page 20424

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I think we do need to have questions because, in

 2     particular, I'm reading this as being Pretis in Vogosca, which I think is

 3     different than the company that was on the first page.  I must admit that

 4     I had not seen this one on the list, and so I'd not paid particular

 5     attention to this 65 ter number to be familiar with the remaining five

 6     documents.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             MR. WEBER:  These documents are not necessarily -- they're each

 9     independent but being offered for the same purpose.  And the

10     Prosecution --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is that there was communication between the

12     higher level army authorities with the production -- the companies

13     producing, in this case, ammunition.  Is it all about ammunition or is it

14     about the others, Mr. Weber?  Because here you specifically have drawn

15     our attention to the mortar shells produced by Pretis Vogosca.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And, well, I must say - one second, please.

18             Yes, I think it's all Pretis Vogosca.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, actually the first page indicates the

20     mortar shells are from Krusik Valjevo in item 3, and I believe that's

21     also then referring to 120-millimetre LTF shells from Krusik again in the

22     later document.  Then I believe in the last document there's reference to

23     different types of shells and FAB 100s and 250s, so it's -- for what

24     you're saying, but it shows different examples of the types of munitions

25     being provided.

Page 20425

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Munitions provided by the various producers and the

 2     communication with the higher level of the VRS --

 3             MR. WEBER:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- command.

 5             Mr. ...

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Just trying to take a glance at each of the

 7     documents, Your Honour.  If you could just bear with me.  One more

 8     document, I believe, is in the bunch.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, if you allow me, the one in front of

10     us talks about guns.  So it's ammunition and guns or other equipment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the specific portion Mr. Weber addressed

12     was about ammunition.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  Sorry.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If we're introducing for the purposes of ammunition,

15     then I guess I don't have an objection to the remainder coming in

16     although I'd --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- let's --

18             MR. IVETIC:  They're a group -- they're a group 65 ter numbers,

19     so I guess there should be one number, I guess.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's be very practical.

21             We'll decide on admission.

22             And, Mr. Ivetic, if there's any matter which comes to your mind,

23     well, let's say within the next two hours, having looked at it a bit more

24     in detail, then you can revisit -- revisit the matter, and it will not be

25     held against you, that you did not oppose admission.

Page 20426

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I appreciate that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 8869 receives P3073, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P3073 is admitted.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 14607.

 6        Q.   Mr. Theunens, this is a Main Staff sector for the rear technical

 7     department document dated 11 July 1995 from Miroslav Crvecic [phoen].

 8             What does this document relate to?

 9        A.   Well, the document addressed to the Pretis factory instructs the

10     latter to issue materiel.  Based on what I see, this materiel consists

11     mainly of ammunition, mortar ammunition, as well as tank ammunition to

12     the SRK.  And it's then further specified that this is needed for

13     operations in the south-western part of the Sarajevo theatre of

14     operations.

15        Q.   And continuing on, does it indicate any other areas of

16     operations?

17        A.   Not on what I can see on the screen.  I'm sorry, it's also

18     mentions the north-western part.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, at this time the Prosecution tenders

20     this document.

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objection to this one.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

23             I am a bit puzzled by the ... whether that's -- it seems to be

24     envelope information, the Sarajevo automobile factory, what that has to

25     do.  It seems ... could we have a better look at the original.

Page 20427

 1             THE WITNESS:  It shouldn't -- Your Honours, if you allow me, it

 2     shouldn't be part of the original because the original is a telex which

 3     starts at the left top corner the heading, i.e., the originator.  The

 4     reference to TAS -- I mean, it cannot be part of the original document

 5     unless it is recycled paper.  But in my view, it's not part of the

 6     message that is sent by the Main Staff to Pretis.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But it is part of the original as presented to us.

 8     So, therefore, I see it looks as if it is a -- either a letterhead or an

 9     envelope top down, where apparently something is addressed to the

10     Main Staff of the VRS.  Pretis is mentioned.

11             Mr. Weber, any -- any explanation for --

12             MR. WEBER:  Offhand, I don't have an explanation.  I could either

13     look into it and report back to the Chamber or -- we don't intend to rely

14     on that information.  If you'd like me to see if -- we could redact that

15     top part --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, it raises some concerns about how you put

17     your documents together.  That's -- we do understand that it is not what

18     you seek the Chamber to rely upon.  At the same time, it raises some

19     concerns about the precision with which these documents are prepared.

20             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  P3074, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if it's okay with you, and I'm going to

25     try to ...

Page 20428

 1             Your Honour, if it's okay if I further discuss with Mr. Ivetic,

 2     there's some other logistics-related documents to see if we

 3     can [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber -- the Chamber never opposes any

 5     discussions you have with Mr. Ivetic which would be in the interest of

 6     the proceedings.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Theunens, I now want to return for a moment to an exchange, a

 9     conversation you had with Judge Orie yesterday in relation to the

10     recorded conversation of General Mladic in which he stated that those

11     older than 10 and younger than 75 ... in Sibenik would come to harm.

12             Judge Orie said to you:

13             "Yes.  But if -- are these instructions already?  You say he is

14     not going to consider.  What makes you believe that he is not going to

15     reconsider?"

16             In your response, you highlighted the important difference

17     between two people having a conversation and a military commander having

18     a conversation with his subordinate.

19             My question to you is:  In a situation where a military commander

20     issues an order and subsequently reconsiders the decision and decides he

21     does not want the original order implemented, what, if anything, is he

22     obliged to do with respect to the original order?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  I think I'll have to object because it improperly

25     categorises the material that was before the Chamber and that was being

Page 20429

 1     discussed as being an order.  I believe my recollection of Your Honours'

 2     question to the witness was that this was in reference to something that

 3     if something happened, then, and that -- that no order had been issued

 4     yet as to the contingency having transpired.  So to categorise this as an

 5     original order, I think misstates the evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, what I remember, it was a conversation

 7     where it was said:  If this and this happens, then we would -- of that

 8     kind.  And otherwise we get the text before us and first explore whether

 9     this is considered to be an order or a conditional order, as you put it

10     yesterday.

11             Perhaps we should have the text --

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it's fine.  Without expressing a view on

13     whether or not General Mladic said is probably considered an order or

14     not, I can ask my question in -- in theoretical terms in a situation in

15     which a commander issues an order.  That's fine.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As long as it is clear that if it would not

17     apply to the situation you refer to, then, of course, it may hang

18     somewhere in the air without any link to -- because you introduced the

19     matter clearly in the context of the questions I put to the witness

20     yesterday, which was a very specific context.  And now to say:  I'll do

21     it in a very general way, then, of course, the relevance for what we

22     looked at yesterday may be lost.

23             I leave it in your hands, Mr. Weber, whether you would either go

24     back to the text we saw yesterday or that you put questions of a very

25     general nature to the witness.  But then you should ask yourself to what

Page 20430

 1     extent that would assist the Chamber.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Theunens, just going back to my question, in a situation

 4     where a commander issues an order and subsequently reconsiders the

 5     decision and decides he does not want the original order implemented,

 6     what, if anything, is he obliged to do with respect to the original

 7     order?

 8        A.   Well, he has to make clear that it's not valid anymore.  And that

 9     it's replaced by another order.

10             MR. WEBER:  If I could just, please, have one moment.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 17293A --

13     or, excuse me.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Mr. Theunens, on the screen before you, can you tell us, do you

17     recognise the document?

18        A.   I do, Your Honours.  It's a 1983 textbook or regulation of the

19     JNA for command and control, which I have quoted extensively in my

20     report.  Part 1.

21             MR. WEBER:  Can we please go to page 23 in both versions.

22             I'm not sure if we need it enlarged.  If we could have the bottom

23     part.

24        Q.   Could you please summarise for us what this particular section

25     deals with.

Page 20431

 1        A.   It deals with -- I mean, as the text says, it is obviously

 2     predicting as part of the command process.  That is, obviously in order

 3     to plan operations, as a part of command and control, you do not only

 4     have to be familiar with the current situation of your own units, enemy

 5     units, any factor that can influence your operations, but you also have

 6     to be able to make -- yeah, predictions, i.e., to be able to foresee how

 7     these factors can develop.

 8             For your own forces, you may be able to foresee how ammunition

 9     consumption will develop based on the nature of the operations they will

10     conduct.  Obviously you will have a weather forecast, if the weather may

11     have implications for your operations.  And as for the enemy, you have

12     the intelligence organ who, on the basis of their understanding of -- of

13     enemy doctrine and the nature of the terrain and so on, try to make

14     predictions as to how the enemy is going to act in the -- in -- in the

15     time that is of relevance for the conduct of your own operations,

16     including how the enemy will respond to your operations.  And all these

17     factors together will be used then in order to prepare plans aimed at

18     implementing the task.

19             MR. WEBER:  Can we now move to e-court page 24 in both versions,

20     next page.

21        Q.   Can I draw your attention to the paragraph immediately above the

22     section entitled:  "Decision-making."

23             This paragraph relates to the importance of commanders

24     considering the possibility of different scenarios as well as different

25     solutions to those scenarios.  Can you ...

Page 20432

 1             MR. WEBER:  If we could scroll up on the screen, in the English.

 2        Q.   Can you read this paragraph to your yourself, and when you're

 3     done, could you please explain this concept to us in just lay -- lay

 4     terms.

 5        A.   Summarising this, Your Honours, it means that while surprise

 6     in -- sorry.  While surprising the enemy is a requirement for successful

 7     operations, the commander himself does not like to be surprised in

 8     relation to potential future developments.  So when predicting the

 9     various developments, each staff section in their own area, they will

10     have to do scenario-building and at least include the best -- the

11     worse-case scenario because then at least even if the situation develops

12     in a way that was not exactly predicted, the impact of surprise should be

13     reduced because the unit -- I mean, the command and the forces have

14     prepared for the worse-case scenario.

15        Q.   Does a commander have an obligation to supplement or change his

16     orders in response to an evolving situation?

17        A.   Well, it all depends of the task that has been set.  If the

18     evolution of the situation does not have any impact on the way how the

19     unit can accomplish the task, then there is no need to amend the order.

20             If, however, the changes do impact on the ability of the unit to

21     achieve the task, then, of course, the orders have to be amended, in

22     order to limit or eliminate the impact of the changes on the desired end

23     state.

24        Q.   Can a commander give an order that becomes effective upon the

25     occurrence of a future event -- upon the occurrence of a future event,

Page 20433

 1     such as if the enemy forces launch an attack on a village, artillery fire

 2     should commence on an enemy command centre, for example?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, could I ask you.  You said would you ask

 4     questions about a very general theoretical level.  It's -- in my ears I

 5     hear resounding the situation we discussed yesterday.  Is that your

 6     purpose?

 7             MR. WEBER:  I'm going come back to it.  If you would like me to

 8     do now, I can.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm asking you whether that is that the purpose

10     of this line of questioning.

11             MR. WEBER:  I'm going back to that, yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So this is all relevant.  It's not that

13     theoretical.  Then I'd like to ask a few questions about what happened

14     yesterday.

15             Yesterday we looked at this telephone conversation between

16     Mr. Mladic and Lieutenant-Colonel Milisav.

17             Could you tell us exactly who Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav was?

18             THE WITNESS:  I am not familiar with the assignment this

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Milisav at that stage.  You know, if I would be given

20     the opportunity to again review the documents and to do a search --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first have a look at the document itself,

22     which is P1959, I think.  Could we have a look at it.  Page 3.

23             What is it that makes it takes so much time?

24             There we are for the B/C/S.  English page 3.

25             Yes, there we are.  I think we still would need to move in the

Page 20434

 1     B/C/S perhaps also to page 3.  I'm not quite sure about that.

 2             Mr. Theunens, on the top of that page is said that Ratko Mladic

 3     said:

 4             "In Zadar, they are blocked.  They're asking for negotiations ...

 5     we will stop firing, to see if they will permit a normal evacuation ..."

 6             And then Milosav answers:

 7             "Would you also have us as part of that?"

 8             And then Mr. Mladic says:

 9             "As we are looking at you also as part of that, to get you out as

10     well."

11             Is it your understanding that Mr. -- Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav

12     is belonging to units that would need to be safely evacuated from the

13     Zadar region?  Is that your understanding of what's written here?

14             THE WITNESS:  That is my understanding, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, those units that are seeking to be

16     evacuated safely, in your view, would that be the same units as that

17     would embark on the destruction of Zadar if negotiations would be

18     unsuccessful?

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, if you allow me I will give a

20     two-fold answer.

21             First, from a methodological point of view, I rarely draw

22     conclusions on one single document because that is --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you to draw any conclusions.  I'm

24     just asking how you understand this document.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

Page 20435

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you can put them in the context of other

 2     documents, you, of course, have an opportunity to do so.  But my question

 3     was whether, reading this text, you think that those troops to be

 4     evacuated safely, whether those are the ones you would expect that would

 5     be tasked with the destruction of Zadar.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Well, Your Honours, if this Lieutenant-Colonel

 7     Milosav is in Zadar and if he is in the JNA artillery centre in Zadar,

 8     where, for example, there were Orkan multiple-barrel rocket-launchers,

 9     and I think it was the only installation in the JNA where these weapons

10     were available, then, of course, he would be in a position to use these

11     weapons against targets identified by General Mladic.  This is just on

12     the face value, knowing what Zadar was and what was there.

13             So the answer would you yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If.

15             THE WITNESS:  If, yeah.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  If, then yes.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, looking at the language, "if they do not agree,

19     then we will impact on the distribution of Zadar," purely from the point

20     of view of the text, do you consider this to be an instruction given to

21     Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav, or action to be taken by whatever unit under

22     the command and control of Mr. Mladic?

23             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I mean, it's very difficult to --

24     it's clearly not an order as we have seen before.  But at least it -- it

25     reflects Mladic's state of mind as well as it could be interpreted as the

Page 20436

 1     commanders intent; i.e., what is the general view of Mladic in relation

 2     to the situation in Zadar?  How he will translate that general view of

 3     his general objective in orders to his -- his subordinates is another

 4     matter.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but - if I may interrupt you at this moment -

 6     many of the previous questions put to you by Mr. Weber were about what

 7     would you need if you do not further persist on an order?

 8             Now, if you say to a lieutenant-colonel, who is not necessarily

 9     the -- commanding the units that would have to destroy Zadar, if you just

10     say, We will, and if you had in mind that another unit would be tasked

11     with that, if it ever comes to it, because only if the negotiations were

12     not successful, wouldn't it be totally unclear now who would have been

13     aware of what to do?  And, in this respect, if you are informed about the

14     intention a potential -- an intention in case something would happen,

15     would you then have to inform that person that either the negotiations

16     were not successful and that, therefore, the intention had been withdrawn

17     or just that you changed your mind?

18             I'm rather confused about the questions that were put to you in

19     this same context --

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which seems not to directly apply to the present

22     situation.

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm asking a question to Mr. Theunens.

25             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I mean, an order has to be clear and

Page 20437

 1     has to say when the action has to be conducted, I mean, in clear terms.

 2     Obviously an "if" is not enough --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And also should it not include who is addressed by

 4     the order.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.  But I do believe that what General Mladic

 6     says is important because, again, as I mentioned earlier or in the days

 7     before in your answer, this is not a conversation between two people

 8     we're talking about --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Theunens, I'm not asking questions whether you

10     consider it important.  I'm not in any way -- in my questions have put

11     the importance of the matter on the table.

12             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just asking you some additional questions which

14     were triggered by the questions that were put to you as questions of a

15     general kind by Mr. Weber.

16             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.  Yes, Your Honours.  It is not an order to

17     Milosav to start shelling Zadar but it -- I'm repeating myself.  It shows

18     General Mladic sees -- as the commander how he sees the situation there.

19     And you know we could turn it around.  Mladic doesn't have to mention

20     that.  Mladic doesn't have to say, We will bomb Zadar if they don't do

21     that.  He is a military commander.  He is having, I think, a conversation

22     about the situation with -- with a subordinate commander or with a

23     subordinate officer - we don't know what position this Lieutenant-Colonel

24     Milosav has - but at least it shows to the subordinate officer the

25     mindset and the commander's intent of General Mladic in relation to

Page 20438

 1     Zadar.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear to me.

 3             Mr. Weber, you wanted to --

 4             MR. WEBER:  I just wanted --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- address something.

 6             MR. WEBER:  So it doesn't get too confusing, this wasn't the

 7     section of the conversation I was referring to in my questions.  It was

 8     the last page so -- just so that's clear on the record.  But can I go on.

 9        Q.   Now, returning to this section --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we take a break first --

11             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- because we are at that point.

13             Yes, then I was the more confused, if it did not even relate in

14     any way to this part, because looking forward, the ifs, and telling that

15     an order was not valid anymore -- well, I hope -- I apologise for not

16     fully understanding it.

17             Mr. Groome.

18             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I can just say something so that the

19     Chamber can think about over the break and maybe avoid this confusion.

20             The Prosecution isn't dealing with any of this evidence to

21     establish that General Mladic gave an order, legal or otherwise,

22     regarding Zadar.  We're introducing this evidence because of what it

23     speaks to with respect to his mens rea and his general disposition

24     towards civilians in the conduct of war.  That's simply it, Your Honour.

25     And if Mr. Weber is indulged with a few more questions, all of this will

Page 20439

 1     become very clear after the break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I mean, if is about the mindset, then of course it

 3     is a matter totally different.  But the questions were mainly about

 4     looking forward and in -- the questions were not primarily about the

 5     mindset.  I at least understood them not to be.

 6             We take a break.  We first ask Mr. Theunens to be escorted out of

 7     the courtroom.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Weber.  You exclusively wanted to address

10     the matter of the 301 and the 306, and the -- the Sibenik people coming

11     to harm.  Is that the portion you wanted?  Yes.  And no one getting out

12     of Dalmatia except children under the age of 10.  Yes.

13             Okay.  It's all about mindset.

14             We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to come into the

18     courtroom, Mr. Weber, it certainly would have assisted, if, when

19     referring to yesterday's conversation, if you would have given a clear

20     reference as -- in terms of the source of that, which might have -- which

21     might have avoided further confusion.  Perhaps I should have asked for

22     it.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to call up -- I'm returning to

25     65 ter 17293A.  If I could please have page 31 in e-court in the English.

Page 20440

 1     And I'm afraid I do not have the B/C/S.  I'm not sure if it's part of the

 2     uploaded excerpts.  We will look into this; and, if it's not, we will

 3     correspond the appropriate B/C/S section.

 4             I would just note for the record that, at least of now, it can be

 5     found in 65 ter 17293, page 38.

 6        Q.   Mr. Theunens, before looking at the section before you, I just

 7     want to return to what General Mladic said to his subordinate,

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav, that all people between the ages of 10 and 75

 9     may come to harm.

10             Apart from whether or not General Mladic intended this as a

11     specific order, apart from whether or not he may have considered or

12     withdrawn what he said to Milosav, do you have an opinion regarding what

13     the impact of a commander talking about the possibility of committing war

14     crimes with a subordinate has on the functioning of a military

15     organisation?

16        A.   Well, I will give a -- a theoretical answer irrespective of the

17     individuals involved by referring to the 1988 regulations on the

18     implementations of the laws of war by the SFRY armed forces.  That is,

19     that the subordinate cannot implement an order that would amount to

20     crimes.  And so in this case, the subordinate should have made it clear

21     to his commander that if, indeed, he was to implement the task of -- of

22     not allowing anyone between -- or sorry, committing harm to the people

23     between 10 and 75, then he should have made his commander aware of the

24     fact that this would amount to a crime and that he would not be able to

25     implement that order.

Page 20441

 1             However, in this context, I mean, considering the personality of

 2     General Mladic and the -- I would call it charisma even -- even if I

 3     haven't used that expression in my report.  But the degree of not just

 4     de jure but also de facto authority he has because of his personality and

 5     his command style, and in the overall context as we are seeing at that

 6     time in -- in -- in Croatia and later on Bosnia-Herzegovina, it may well

 7     be that subordinates were less inclined to -- to confront General Mladic

 8     with -- with that observation, i.e., that it would amount to a crime and

 9     perhaps would have implemented the order.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I understood the question to be slightly -- to

11     be a different one.

12             What effect that would have on the subordinates rather than how

13     the subordinates would respond to that, and if I look at the -- that

14     such -- that -- I think if I would not be a specialist, I would think

15     that it would give a very bad example.  That has got nothing to do with

16     expertise on matters.  If you behave in a way which -- or if you talk

17     about things in a way which are not consistent with the regulations, the

18     valid regulations, then that might be understood by others that there's

19     no need to do that and gives a bad example.  That is, I think, a layman

20     would easily say.  Now, you as an expert, would you agree with that or

21     would an expert think about it in a different way.

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I mean, obviously we would agree with

23     that.  But I mean, you also have to look at the whole context.  I'm not

24     sure whether I included it in this report, but there is an ultimatum by

25     General Kadijevic, I believe, of the 1st October 1991, that -- where he

Page 20442

 1     clearly states that for each JNA facility that is being damaged or

 2     harmed, or JNA personnel being damaged or harmed, we're thinking here of

 3     the context of the blockade that was mounted by -- blockades that were

 4     mounted by the Croats, that he -- the JNA will retaliate against Croatian

 5     towns.  There is such a -- a -- an ultimatum by General Kadijevic.  So, I

 6     mean, in theory, obviously one doesn't have to be an expert to agree that

 7     it gives a very bad example in it.  But the practical context is such

 8     that even the most senior levels were considering this option of

 9     retaliating against civilian targets to respond to the Croatian blockade

10     of JNA barracks.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Can I now draw your attention to the screen before you and, in

14     particular, the second paragraph on the top of the page which states:

15             "The function of a senior officer requires certain traits that

16     are connected with that function.  It is very important that in everyday

17     work an officer acts in conformity with socialist social norms and norms

18     of military conduct, and as an officer in command, he has to adapt his

19     method of work to a military environment."

20             Is this passage a reminder of the importance of avoiding the type

21     of thing you've just described?

22        A.   Yes, of course, it is.  And it can be summarised as leadership by

23     example.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the Prosecution is going to tender

25     this -- selected excerpts from this once we verify the presence of the

Page 20443

 1     B/C/S.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How many pages is it that you --

 4             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if it's okay with you, I will -- we've

 5     reviewed it for the ones that we feel are necessary, it is a greatly

 6     reduced amount of a very large document but it still might be a certain

 7     amount -- 42 pages.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber -- 42 pages.  That's an answer to my

 9     question.

10             We'll marked for identification pending verification of the B/C/S

11     translation.  And we may also further consider relevance and -- and if

12     you would -- you said you have done that, the Chamber wouldn't mind if

13     you would do it again so to be perfectly sure and to see whether that

14     changes anything.  I have no opinion about it at this moment.

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

17             Mr. Registrar, the number under which it would be MFI'd, would

18     be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  P3075, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

21             Mr. Theunens.

22             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I would just like to

23     clarify my previous answer concerning the Kadijevic ultimatum.  This is

24     footnote 411 in Part 1 of the report.  It's put there on page 125.  And I

25     think shows there the mindset.


Page 20444

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of Mr. Kadijevic.

 2             THE WITNESS:  And -- and senior leadership in the JNA.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:  No further questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

 7             Before we continue, the Chamber has considered whether it --

 8     first of all, Mr. Theunens, you are scheduled for next week.  Would you

 9     be available next week?

10             THE WITNESS:  Of course, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it cause you any problems, for example, to

12     leave on -- to be excused on Friday rather than on Thursday because we

13     are usually not sitting on Wednesday?  Would that cause you any problems?

14             THE WITNESS:  It would not, Your Honours.  But it would be

15     appreciated if the ICTY can contact my employer now because they expect

16     me back on Thursday.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meaning still be in court Thursday morning and

18     leaving on Thursday afternoon.  Is that?

19             THE WITNESS:  But given the flight schedule, I would leave on

20     Friday then and be back in Lebanon on Friday.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Friday would be at what time approximately

22     that you're -- the flight schedule?

23             THE WITNESS:  Oh, it's -- from Brussels it's at 11 in the

24     morning.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  11.00 in the morning, yes, that's clear.  The reason

Page 20445

 1     why I'm raising it -- but there's nothing apart from that you'd like your

 2     employer to be informed about it.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Exactly.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not that things would go wrong, where you --

 5     perhaps things may always go wrong if you're wrong if you're not there

 6     but --

 7             THE WITNESS:  No --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if there's not a specific urgency in your return,

 9     apart from that you'd like to be back as soon as possible.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honours.  And it is nice to know in

11     advance because I have some practical issues just to deal with.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's understood.  Because as I said before,

13     the Judges have -- well, used their Wednesday for appointments assuming

14     that we would not be sitting.

15             Now, Mr. Ivetic, you have -- the witness was scheduled for

16     eight hours of cross-examination.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it was seven, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Seven.  Which would mean that that's a fair chance

19     even if we would not sit on Wednesday that we'd -- nevertheless, we would

20     be able to conclude by Thursday at the end of the morning session.

21             The Chamber would very much like the parties to see whether we

22     could achieve that.  That is, to conclude the cross-examination but also

23     re-examination by Thursday.  A day having three and a half effective

24     hours of examination usually would mean cross-examination to be concluded

25     preferably at the end of Tuesday's session.


Page 20446

 1             On the basis of what we now discussed, the Chamber sees no reason

 2     yet, at this moment, to change next week's schedule, that is, to sit on

 3     Wednesday instead of Friday.

 4             Mr. Theunens, the expectation is there's a fair chance that you

 5     would be excused on Thursday anyhow.  If anything changes, then we would

 6     inform you as soon as possible.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if you're ready, you may start your

 9     cross-examination.

10             Mr. Theunens, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic

11     is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic

14        Q.   Good day, sir.

15        A.   Hello, Mr. Ivetic.

16        Q.   I'd like to take up approximately where you left off in the

17     direct examination with the incidents at the Zadar barracks, the JNA

18     troops that were barricaded therein, and the conversation between

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Milosav and General Mladic as we have discussed.

20             First of all, did your review of material lead you to determine

21     how long the JNA forces at the barracks in question had been surrounded

22     and blockaded by enemy Croat forces?

23        A.   Your Honours, for the purpose of this report, I did not analyse

24     the activities of the Croatian forces, including the duration of -- of --

25     of -- of blockade of JNA barracks and installations in Croatia.  So I'm

Page 20447

 1     not able to answer the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just intervene for a second.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, I appreciate that you're typing urgent matters,

 4     but you could do it at another table so that we do not also hear you

 5     typing.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours will note that I tried to use the

 7     technology available to limit the distance between myself and the

 8     microphone but unfortunately it's still --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not a matter of distance.  I take it that it's

10     a matter of resonance rather than -- so, therefore, changing microphones

11     would not likely result in any positive way.  Either you change from desk

12     or refrain from typing.  That's the solution, I think.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   Mr. Theunens, did you have occasion in the review of the material

16     in relation to the situation surrounding the Zadar barracks to confirm

17     that the forces located therein, the JNA forces therein, had already

18     suffered casualties in the way of deaths of their members as a result of

19     the activities of the surrounding enemy Croatian troops or forces?

20        A.   Your Honours, I believe I've answered the questions -- the

21     question.  I have not analysed the situation of the JNA barracks in

22     Croatia and -- and I mean, the blockade by Croatian forces.  I have

23     general knowledge of that, and I understand that there were casualties,

24     but I have no specific information as to -- for the situation in Zadar.

25        Q.   Do you have information whether the blockade was complete or

Page 20448

 1     partial, were they completely surrounded by enemy forces, were they

 2     partially surrounded by enemy forces?

 3        A.   Again, Your Honours, I don't have specific information for Zadar.

 4     What I know about Zadar I have mentioned during the questions by

 5     Your Honours and the Prosecution.  That is that I know there was a

 6     blockade and I know that there was the -- that the JNA had the artillery

 7     training centre in -- in Zadar, which, if I'm not mistaken, was under the

 8     command of then Colonel Perisic and there were modern artillery weapons

 9     there.

10        Q.   Now, do you know whether that particular barracks was one of the

11     ones which had utilities, water and food supplies, cut off from the

12     outside?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- before we continue, is there any issue

14     between the parties that, if you're surrounded by enemy troops, that

15     you'd fight your way out, if need be?  Or is the issue about the language

16     used about:  We'll embark on the destruction of Zadar.  I mean, fighting

17     your way out is something -- well, at least linguistically different from

18     destruction of Zadar.  I gained the impression that it was that language,

19     if we're talking about mindset, rather than whether if you failed to

20     positively negotiate, that you would do whatever you think would be

21     militarily necessary.  So therefore I'm wondering whether we are -- on

22     what track we are.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I think we're on the same track, Your Honour.  I'm

24     about to talk about the language that was used and what can be drawn from

25     that with these foundational questions of the expert to set up what would

Page 20449

 1     be a hypothetical question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then I think that could have been done

 3     more quickly, but I leave it to you, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Mr. Theunens, if I may ask you to exercise your military

 6     knowledge, your military experience, and the expertise that you claim to

 7     have on military matters to ask you to comment upon a situation.  If we

 8     are to assume that a friendly military force is surrounded, if we are to

 9     assume a friendly military force is cut off from supplies of food, water,

10     and utilities, and, indeed, suffering casualties, would it be a situation

11     where you would consider that a friendly military commander might attempt

12     to try to boost the morale of those so blockaded, and, indeed, promise

13     things that he has no intention of undertaking so as to keep the soldiers

14     so blockaded from giving up or despairing that they are not -- that they

15     are alone in the fight?

16             Is that something that you would expect?

17        A.   I think I first need to correct you.  I have not made any claims

18     about any expertise I might have, yes or no.  I mean, you know by now

19     that this is a matter that is in the hands of Trial Chamber.  And

20     concerning the boosting of morale and so on, you know, making abstraction

21     from the military, if you make promises to somebody who is in a difficult

22     situation and you don't fulfil them, I would say from a psychological

23     point of view, without being a psychologist, it makes it even worse for

24     you.  From a military point of view, there would have been other ways to

25     boost morale instead of saying that, you know, we're going to destroy the

Page 20450

 1     city because how the are the people going to be feel better by having

 2     more destruction around them.  He could have considered, well, you know,

 3     we're negotiating with the Croats, we'll allow food in or they will allow

 4     food in.  We can fly in food.  I mean drop it from helicopters or

 5     whatever.  I think there would have been more constructive ways to boost

 6     morale in this context than to make a promise or -- not a promise, but to

 7     threaten to destroy a city.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, to the extent you intended to draw the

 9     Chamber's attention through the witness that there may be other

10     explanations as for the language used, you have done so.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Then I'll move on.

12        Q.   If I may focus on another part of your answer, sir, and ask you,

13     do you consider yourself to be a military expert?

14        A.   Your Honours, I will repeat myself.  It's in the -- it's the

15     Trial Chamber who decides whether I or colleagues who appear in the same

16     position are considered experts or not and whether their reports are

17     accepted, yes or no.

18        Q.   Okay.  If we can return to another matter that you dealt with

19     today, we had a set of documents dealing with the Krusik Valjevo factory

20     and the Pretis Vogosca factory --

21             MR. IVETIC:  And by the way, Your Honours, I have reviewed those

22     documents and I do not have an additional objection, so we may proceed to

23     enter them into evidence.  That was 65 ter number 8869 according to my

24     notes and it therefore -- I've lost the --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  They were admitted into evidence but you had an

Page 20451

 1     opportunity to revisit them [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.  Perfect.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's now on the record that you do not intend to

 4     object.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record this is P3073.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Judge Fluegge.

 8        Q.   Now, in relation to that Pretis factory, which according to the

 9     documentation was to be receiving and indeed did receive some parts that

10     had been intended for the Krusik factory, did your review of materials

11     indicate that the Pretis factory, that the confrontation line ran through

12     the middle of the Pretis factory in Vogosca such that the Armija BiH had

13     control over one part of the factory, whereas the VRS had control over

14     another part of the factory?

15        A.   Your Honours, I'm not able to confirm that, but I don't think

16     that that had any impact on the -- on -- the point I tried to -- to

17     demonstrate in my report, i.e., that there is collaboration or

18     cooperation between arms and ammunition factories under Bosnian Serb

19     control and such facilities in FRY and that this collaboration occurs on

20     the instructions and/or with the agreement of the Main Staffs of the

21     respective armies, i.e., the VRS and the VJ.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. IVETIC:  There we are.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We're doing two things.  First to see whether

25     e-court is functioning or not functioning again, but the other eye was

Page 20452

 1     looking at the clock, Mr. Ivetic.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  You have a better vantage point than I do from here

 3     so --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  -- I'm at your disposal, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that we should adjourn for the day.

 7             Mr. Theunens, we'd like to see you back on Monday morning, at

 8     9.30 in the morning.  At this moment, I wouldn't know whether it's in

 9     this same courtroom.  Let me just check.  It is in this same courtroom,

10     II.  And I give you the same instructions as I did before, that you

11     should not speak with anyone about your testimony or communicate in any

12     other way about it.

13             You may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume, Monday,

17     the 9th of December, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

20                           December, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.